Slashdot Mirror


Silver Pen Allows For Hand-Written Circuits

Zothecula writes "People have been using pens to jot down their thoughts for thousands of years but now engineers at the University of Illinois have developed a silver-inked rollerball pen that allows users to jot down electrical circuits and interconnects on paper, wood and other surfaces. Looking just like a regular ballpoint pen, the pen's ink consists of a solution of real silver that dries to leave electrically conductive silver pathways. These pathways maintain their conductivity through multiple bends and folds of the paper, enabling users to personally fabricate low-cost, flexible and disposable electronic devices."

161 comments

  1. Not slashdot too! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    These things have been around for decades, fuck knows why this is suddenly news.

    1. Re:Not slashdot too! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because, its got electrolytes.

    2. Re:Not slashdot too! by Anon-Admin · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No kidding! Heck, 25 years ago My self and a friend used a felt tip one to draw a set of lines on a wooden fence. A set of nails and alligator clip wires and a little hacker engineering and we had the neighbors phone line on the window sill. Worked ok for about 2 weeks, provided it was not raining. Then it broke down enough that it did not work.

    3. Re:Not slashdot too! by dohzer · · Score: 1

      Isn't that what people used to unlock restricted multipliers on microprocessors? Or did those pens us a different conductive metal?

    4. Re:Not slashdot too! by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      Indeed, if you look at many old (1980) PCBs you can see how they were designed by hand. They would prototype with a pen and then use that as a template to make masks for etching. There is something quite beautiful about those hand drawn layouts, devoid of straight lines and equal spacing everywhere.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    5. Re:Not slashdot too! by Thanshin · · Score: 0

      It's not news but, in slashdot, it's entertainment.

      Observe how this obvious old news generate a greater response than today's average.

    6. Re:Not slashdot too! by Kagetsuki · · Score: 2

      I've been using them for almost my entire EE career. I have a small can of conductive paint as well. You can buy conductive fabric and thread too.

    7. Re:Not slashdot too! by Pigeon451 · · Score: 1

      I think the point is that these have a ball at the end, so you can make very fine circuit diagrams. Those other circuit diagram pens are more like a ink-style pen, where if you press too hard it all comes out. Plus it's hard to draw fine lines with current pens.

      It's similar to the difference between a old style ink pen and a ball-point pen -- they both serve the same purpose, but the ball-point pen is much easier to use with less mess.

    8. Re:Not slashdot too! by idontgno · · Score: 1

      It's not "suddenly news". It's a decades-old dupe that finally cleared queue.

      --
      Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
    9. Re:Not slashdot too! by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      I too would like to know what the major innovation is? Is it just a bunch of freshman who didn't know about this before and didn't bother doing a Google search?

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    10. Re:Not slashdot too! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ooh! That's what paper craves!

    11. Re:Not slashdot too! by Tx · · Score: 5, Informative

      The article fails to explain what's new here, a major failing since most every slashdotter will have heard of circuit repair pens. These guys apparently used silver nano-particles and hydroxyethyl cellulose to create a flexible conductor, presumably much more so than the circuit repair pens that have been around forever. I must admit I've never tried using a repair pen on something flexible, but I'm guessing it dries pretty rigid.

      --
      Oh no... it's the future.
    12. Re:Not slashdot too! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Isn't that what people used to unlock restricted multipliers on microprocessors? Or did those pens us a different conductive metal?

      In Soviet Russia, we used a pencil.

    13. Re:Not slashdot too! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is it just a bunch of freshman who didn't know about this before and didn't bother doing a Google search?

      Hey, if not for those we'd never have an Ask Slashdot section.

    14. Re:Not slashdot too! by Linker3000 · · Score: 2

      Nope, as I pointed out on El Reg - pretty flexible:

      http://www.evilmadscientist.com/article.php/mobiuscircuit

      From 2009

      --
      AT&ROFLMAO
    15. Re:Not slashdot too! by Huckabees · · Score: 1

      It's got what circuit boards crave!

    16. Re:Not slashdot too! by Coisiche · · Score: 1

      It's similar to the difference between a old style ink pen and a ball-point pen -- they both serve the same purpose, but the ball-point pen is much easier to use with less mess.

      Granted, but that analogy fails a bit because hand-writing with a fountain pen is just so much more elegant than with a ball-point; well assuming that one can avoid ink blots. I don't think elegance is that important when hand laying circuit links; just don't have them too near.

    17. Re:Not slashdot too! by dziban303 · · Score: 0

      That's it. I've reached my limit. I am removing Slashdot from my RSS reader. It's no longer news for nerds, it's news for idiots who think they're nerds. The number of inane, boring, misleading, untrue, crazy, stupid and just plain wrong posts far, far outnumber legitimate items of interest. Buffoons post stories and another set of buffoons approve them. Goodbye, Slashdot.

    18. Re:Not slashdot too! by Wansu · · Score: 1

      We used black masking tape of various widths on a clear mylar sheet, typically at 2:1.

      The advantage of hand layout is you can create virtually any shape you need. This is important for power electronics where wide traces are needed to carry large currents or to conduct heat away from components.

      --
      Wansu, th' chinese sailor
    19. Re:Not slashdot too! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No kidding. They've had felt-tip and rapidiograph type conductive ink pens **FOREVER** - and you've been able to draw circuitry by hand on a variety of surfaces and connect to components either with the ink or with conductive epoxy. The only thing special I can see is that it's a rollerball- and maybe it won't dry out like the other pens would.

    20. Re:Not slashdot too! by SomePgmr · · Score: 2
    21. Re:Not slashdot too! by xded · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Original article here (sorry, no free version available). I find ridiculous that they provide (mostly self) references to existing art, but they fail to mention commercial felt-tip silver pens.

      By a quick look at the paper, their ink has a resistivity of 2*10^(-4) Ohm*cm (25 C print temperature) which is not so lower than the 5*10^(-4) Ohm*cm commercially available ink. They do reach lower resistivity, but with high temperature annealing, so it cannot be compared directly (and they fail to).

      Maybe their ink is more flexible, but again they fail to provide comparison with existing ink.

      Their ink has probably lower viscosity due to the use of nanoparticles (they are working between 1 and 10 Pa*s) and this probably allows for the use of rollerball pens, but if felt-tip pens are working fine with a most likely cheaper ink, why should I care?

      However they do manage to master the acronyms creation art, providing the catchy PoP shorthening for their groundbreaking pen-on-paper circuit drawing approach...

    22. Re:Not slashdot too! by DemonGenius · · Score: 1

      I personally haven't heard of these since the only work with circuit boards I've done was solder a mod chip in my PSOne. While it's nice to know that these exist for when I start creating my own devices someday, I do agree that this article shouldn't be masquerading as some sort of revolutionary article if these silver pens have existed for decades. A more accurate title would be, "20 years into the making, people discover they can draw boobies with silver pens and make glowing LED nipples"... on second thought, given the demographic of those who would use silver pens, I think even THAT has been done before.

    23. Re:Not slashdot too! by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      These things have been around for decades, fuck knows why this is suddenly news.

      Probably because the original came out before many /.rs were born and somebody just re-discovered it. Next week, there will probably be a post about this crazy idea on how to etch our own circuit boards.

    24. Re:Not slashdot too! by Have+Brain+Will+Rent · · Score: 1

      Yep that's how I made my first circuit board too. You could also buy pre-printed stickers for DIPs and other common shapes like a pad with 3 holes spaced for transistors etc.

      --
      The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny - Aesop
    25. Re:Not slashdot too! by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      Isn't that what people used to unlock restricted multipliers on microprocessors? Or did those pens us a different conductive metal?

      In Soviet Russia, we used a pencil.

      I see, you already did Graphene transistors.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    26. Re:Not slashdot too! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also conductive epoxy.

    27. Re:Not slashdot too! by AlienIntelligence · · Score: 1

      Goodbye, Slashdot.

      How much are you auctioning off that 6 digit ID for? =)

      -AI

      --
      For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion
    28. Re:Not slashdot too! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because, its got electrolytes.

      Desmond, is that you?

    29. Re:Not slashdot too! by Gilmoure · · Score: 1

      In Soviet Russia, Slashdot says Goodbye dzlban303!

      --
      I drank what? -- Socrates
    30. Re:Not slashdot too! by treeves · · Score: 1

      Maybe they need to post stories like this just to give all us old /.ers a chance to come on and say that we've been using these things since before yer momma was born, and such.

      --
      ...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
    31. Re:Not slashdot too! by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      ...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.

      Of course the same youngins who think the silver pen is a new invention probably won't understand the Kool-Aid reference.

    32. Re:Not slashdot too! by LastDawnOfMan · · Score: 1

      I've been wondering for months what's with the onslaught of "new" ideas and inventions being touted on Slashdot that anyone half-conscious would see have known have been around for decades. Secretly, I figured it was ignorant 19-year-olds who had simply never seen the technology develop. Now I see even CmdrTaco doing this and it's not even April Fools' Day. and he's GOT to be older than 19. So WTH?????

  2. Life immiates art once again. by chinton · · Score: 4, Informative

    It comes in handy when your man-animal may be spying to steal your teleportation secrets...

    1. Re:Life immiates art once again. by lwsimon · · Score: 1

      I see what you did there.

      --
      Learn about Photography Basics.
    2. Re:Life immiates art once again. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wondered if anyone else saw the similarity there.

    3. Re:Life immiates art once again. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      hell yeah, crazy douchebag of an author, but a great read.

  3. Not really new... by drussell · · Score: 1, Insightful

    This is not really new stuff... Silver pens for "circuit repair" have been available for ages... They made a ballpoint version.

    1. Re:Not really new... by v1 · · Score: 1

      indeed. the previous versions have all been markers afaik. I wonder how well such a thin line from a ballpoint pen works? They probably had to up the conductivity a lot since when you're drawing a 1/8" line with a marker you don't need super high grade conductivity.

      But then again the ballpoint pen probably won't work on nearly as many surfaces as the old markers do.

      --
      I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
    2. Re:Not really new... by drussell · · Score: 1

      It really depends on the type of circuit you are building. Some things don't need very low resistance (ie. simple digital), others it's critical and won't work well.

    3. Re:Not really new... by Kagetsuki · · Score: 1

      I have one with a tip that's not much thicker than a standard ball point pen line. Thus far it's never given me a flaky connection but it's not like I'm running 50w through it or drawing traces longer than a few centimeters. I guess this is for people who like to free-hand multi-layered A4 sized PCBs...

    4. Re:Not really new... by drussell · · Score: 1

      Exactly... There have been very fine point, silver conductive pens available for ages...

    5. Re:Not really new... by drussell · · Score: 1

      Even if this is the first ballpoint or rollerball, these pens (some with very fine tips) have been around at least as long as when I first started using one about 25 years ago!

    6. Re:Not really new... by AlienIntelligence · · Score: 1

      This is not really new stuff... Silver pens for "circuit repair" have been available for ages... They made a ballpoint version.

      This is not really new stuff... Silver pens for "circuit repair" have been available for ages... They copied a ballpoint version.

      FTFY.

      -AI

      --
      For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion
  4. Everybody doing that for years... no? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's mentioned in the manual of this silver pens sold in catalogs like radiospares.

  5. Amazing!!!! by Lumpy · · Score: 4, Informative

    They invented a product that has been available for over 20 years....

    http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/pens.html

    What's next from these ingenious companies?

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    1. Re:Amazing!!!! by chinton · · Score: 5, Funny

      Next week, graphite in a wooden cylinder that can make marks on pressed and dried wood pulp.

    2. Re:Amazing!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      And it gets better - graphite is an electrical conductor! Now we've gone full circle.

    3. Re:Amazing!!!! by Tsingi · · Score: 1

      Next week, graphite in a wooden cylinder that can make marks on pressed and dried wood pulp.

      The Russians already invented those so that they could have a writing instrument that would work in weightless environments.

    4. Re:Amazing!!!! by Animats · · Score: 2

      Mod parent up.

      A conductive ink pen and a trace-cutter used to be standard equipment when debugging new PC boards. Today, you usually get it right the first time using CAD tools. Today's pin spacing is too close for hand drawing.

    5. Re:Amazing!!!! by vlm · · Score: 1

      They invented a product that has been available for over 20 years....

      http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/pens.html

      What's next from these ingenious companies?

      That product in general has been around something in excess of 40 years. Mostly used to repair scratched car rear-view mirrors.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    6. Re:Amazing!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, when I was a kid, I colored a patch about 2 inches by 1/2-inch on a piece of paper using a #2 pencil. Then I hooked up a simple flashlight bulb, battery, and a couple wires--ran the wires along the graphite "strip" and watched the light brighten and dim. Did I invent the potentiometer as a fifth grader?

    7. Re:Amazing!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The University of Illinois is a company?

    8. Re:Amazing!!!! by pruss · · Score: 1

      But the mgchemicals ones look felt tip, while these folks have a rollerball one. It looks like that may present particular difficulties. From the Advanced Materials article: "Central to the PoP approach is the design of a silver ink that readily flows through the rollerball pen tip during writing, does not leak from, dry out, or coagulate within the pen, and is conductive upon printing under ambient conditions. To create an ink with these attributes, we synthesized silver particles in an aqueous solution by reducing silver nitrate in the presence of a surface capping agent, poly(acrylic acid) (PAA) and diethanolamine.22–26 Using a multistep procedure, we first mixed these components to create a population of silver nanoparticles (5 nm in diameter). This particle population is then ripened by heating the solution to 65 C for 1.5 h to yield a mean diameter of 400 ± 120 nm, as shown in Figure2a. Ethanol, a poor solvent for the PAA-coated particles, is added to induce rapid coagulation and then the precipitate is centrifuged to achieve high solids loading. The silver particles are redispersed in water to remove the PAA capping agent, which is initially present at 10% by weight of silver, and again concentrated by centrifugation. This process is repeated three times, resulting in complete removal of PAA (see Supporting Information, Figure S1). Finally, hydroxyethyl cellulose (HEC), a viscosifier, is added to tailor the ink rheology." So, probably a more accurate way of describing what was invented is that they made a better silver ink, and then measured its properties as relevant to circuits on flexible substrates.

    9. Re:Amazing!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, these would be more useful for circuit drawing if there were a source for empty circuit boards. You know, PCBs without the "P" part.

    10. Re:Amazing!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Full circuit?

    11. Re:Amazing!!!! by amliebsch · · Score: 1

      It's called perfboard, you can buy it at Radio Shack ffs.

      --
      If you don't know where you are going, you will wind up somewhere else.
    12. Re:Amazing!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, that pen is for writing on circuit boards. This is for writing on paper, and it's flexible.

      You didn't read the article did you?

    13. Re:Amazing!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      my thought exactly

      not to mention that silver is not getting any cheaper. It won't take off I think.

    14. Re:Amazing!!!! by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      The Russians already invented those so that they could have a writing instrument that would work in weightless environments.

      Alas, too bad that story is false. Both space agencies initially used pencils.

      Anyhow, one of the reasons for switching is the graphite dust that pencils emit - it could be troublesome since it hangs in the air - either fouling filters or could potentially short-circuit some of the electricals. And also the broken tips that happen annoyingly often - break the tip and it could send that piece of graphite flying until it lodges itself inside some panel.

    15. Re:Amazing!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You never pencil modded your Athlon XP into Athlon MPs did ya?

      You literally draw a line with a pencil across two traces on the CPU.

    16. Re:Amazing!!!! by mangu · · Score: 1

      It's not only in orbit that pencils cannot be used. Clean rooms do not allow pencils either. Graphite is dirty and messy.

    17. Re:Amazing!!!! by Tsingi · · Score: 1
      I didn't need it to be true, just funny:)

      It does make sense that a pencil could cause problems in such environs. Still, I love telling that joke to Russians.

    18. Re:Amazing!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Rear-view mirrors? Try window defrosters.

    19. Re:Amazing!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Better still: It was written up in a "Radio Boys" book published about a century ago. The protagonist got stuck on a roof during a flood and drew in his missing radio circuit wires with a pencil... (Wish I could remember which book it was in the series... But I haven't read 'em in a few decades...)

    20. Re:Amazing!!!! by drussell · · Score: 1

      The long-available repair pens have always worked just fine on the many flexible things I've used them on... Repair or new construction, even repeated flexing. *PERHAPS* it is more durable or something but the article doesn't say... This is ridiculous! Who allows this kind of crap to make it onto /. ??! Oh, for the good ol' days...

    21. Re:Amazing!!!! by AlienIntelligence · · Score: 1

      Next week, graphite in a wooden cylinder that can make marks on pressed and dried wood pulp.

      Dear sir,

      Am intrigued by graphite in wooden cylinder. Please send more information and purchasing requirements.

      -AI

      --
      For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion
    22. Re:Amazing!!!! by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      PCB's? as in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polychlorinated_biphenyl

      I dont think you can draw on those...

      Now if you are talking BLANK phenolic boards with holes in them? Those are not "Printed Circuit Boards" therefore you can never buy a PCB without the P.

      you are looking for this stuff....

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfboard

      although that's for old skool stuff. I prefer sheets of thin fiberglass board to do surface mount on...

      http://www.mcmaster.com/#plastics/=cyzx5h is what I keep on hand....

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    23. Re:Amazing!!!! by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      It's "gasp" flexible and "gasp" writes on paper all the stuff from 20-40 years ago is the same thing. I turned in an EE project completely on paper in the 80's by using those pens. in fact mine was two sided.

      You did not read anything about what was being talked about did you?

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    24. Re:Amazing!!!! by treeves · · Score: 1

      Yes. Are you looking to collect royalties or something?

      --
      ...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
    25. Re:Amazing!!!! by treeves · · Score: 1

      If there's no 'P', then there's no 'C' either. You just want the 'B'. You could use copper-clad laminate without the copper cladding. That'd be a sheet of FR-4, or polyester, or polyimide, etc.

      --
      ...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
    26. Re:Amazing!!!! by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      The pen is not flexible.

      the ink has always been flexible and has always worked on paper.

      So they invented an old product why? oh to use a inferior ink delivery method.... the roller ball.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  6. This is not new by Nadaka · · Score: 0

    Conductive ink pens have existed for years. I remember the time where overclocking certain AMD CPU's required one to bridge two points on the back of the chip.

    1. Re:This is not new by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      You could have used a mechanical pencil for that. That is what I did.

    2. Re:This is not new by LC+Trucido · · Score: 1

      They're also hugely popular for Intel LGA775 processors.

  7. The Russians use a pencil by Ironchew · · Score: 1

    Doesn't graphite do the same thing, more or less?

    1. Re:The Russians use a pencil by drussell · · Score: 1

      Pencil... Yes, that's how you scribble a resistor... Real lead pencils work even better.

    2. Re:The Russians use a pencil by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 2

      Doesn't graphite do the same thing, more or less?

      For geeks with AMD CPUs and old ATI graphics cards, a sharp pencil was almost mandatory.

      Silver pens were permanent. If you fried your chip with the "pencil lead" mod, all you needed to do was grab your eraser and RMA!

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    3. Re:The Russians use a pencil by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2

      With a tendency toward "less". Graphite is pretty conductive, fairly cheap, and has some useful mechanical properties(albeit often when mixed with other materials); but is a bit more resistive than most metals. Silver, by contrast, while more expensive, is among the most conductive materials commonly available(discounting oddities that are superconductive at atypical temperatures, or materials that have unusual properties in films a few atoms thick, and so on).

      If you don't need a particularly conductive trace, a pencil will work just fine. You can even add impromptu carbon-film resistors, if you don't need high thermal dissipation or terribly precise tolerances; but if you want something as close to indistinguishable from the trace that is supposed to be there, silver is a better bet.

    4. Re:The Russians use a pencil by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In Soviet Russia Pen Draws YOU!

  8. neat for rapid development by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

    This seems neat for rapid prototyping and the hobbyist, but I wonder about 2 things. What is the cost since silver isn't exactly inexpensive? Also since I am not an electronics person how does one make connections to it since I would think that solder would burn paper?

    --
    Time to offend someone
    1. Re:neat for rapid development by Conspiracy_Of_Doves · · Score: 1

      Scotch tape?

    2. Re:neat for rapid development by Qzukk · · Score: 1

      how does one make connections to it since I would think that solder would burn paper?

      Just tape the components to the paper ;)

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    3. Re:neat for rapid development by Osgeld · · Score: 1

      you can get conductive glue as well, but if your buying that you dont really need a pen as it comes with a brush applicator

    4. Re:neat for rapid development by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      I didn't know that. I have some things that I would like to repair that I could use that for.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    5. Re:neat for rapid development by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also since I am not an electronics person how does one make connections to it since I would think that solder would burn paper?

      I am an "electronics person" and have accidentally managed to rest my soldering iron against a piece of paper every now and then.
      Surprisingly it takes quite a lot of heat to make paper burn when you don't have an open flame to begin with.
      I wouldn't be surprised if you could actually solder components to the silver ink without making the paper catch fire.

    6. Re:neat for rapid development by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      It's amazing how little silver it takes to actually be conductive. Just like Goldschlager can have flakes of real gold in it and not really be expensive, so can these pens.

    7. Re:neat for rapid development by AlienIntelligence · · Score: 1

      Also since I am not an electronics person how does one make connections to it since I would think that solder would burn paper?

      I am an "electronics person" and have accidentally managed to rest my soldering iron against a piece of paper every now and then.
      Surprisingly it takes quite a lot of heat to make paper burn when you don't have an open flame to begin with.

      It takes right around 451 deg Fahrenheit, sustained.

      -AI

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fahrenheit_451
      http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2003/LewisChung.shtml

      --
      For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion
  9. Expensive metal is expensive by DriedClexler · · Score: 1

    Too bad the ol' Ag has gotten really expensive recently, "despite" the recession and all the all the stimulus.

    --
    Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
    1. Re:Expensive metal is expensive by doconnor · · Score: 1

      They are expensive because of the recession. It is common for people to move their money into "safer" investments like silver and gold during a recession. That leads to a precious metals bubble making these investments highly dangerous, which of course, attracts even more money.

    2. Re:Expensive metal is expensive by vlm · · Score: 1

      Don't ignore the effect of printing staggering quantities of money... The "value" of an ounce of gold has always been about the cost of a man's suit or a really decent new handgun, and the "value" of an ounce of silver has always been about one unskilled laborers days pay or about a weeks groceries or about one box of ammo.

      Due to inflation, both long term and recently, both have skyrocketed numerically, but the value hasn't changed much.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    3. Re:Expensive metal is expensive by Marcika · · Score: 1

      Umm... wrong. There is no way your statements can be true both today and five years ago. Ag and Au prices have changed by a factor of five, whereas suits, handguns or 8 hours of minimum wage have changed by maybe 30% one way or the other. Currently, the price of gold is about six times of what I've paid for my bespoke suit; whereas the price of silver is still nowhere near a day's minimum wage -- and it especially wasn't five or ten years ago at a price of $7/tr oz...

    4. Re:Expensive metal is expensive by Tenebrousedge · · Score: 1

      The value of anything is purely subjective. Value is only defined in terms of social phenomena. There is no such thing as a 'bubble'. Bubbles are an attempt to rationalize events by fitting a narrative to them (see also all sports commentary).

      Value is random and turbulent, as are all markets. Markets are fundamentally unpredictable in the same sense that the weather is. There are no 'safe' investments, at any time. There are no oracles, there is no God, there is no solution to the halting problem. We are all simply waiting for a Black Swan to kill us.

      --
      Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
    5. Re:Expensive metal is expensive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shhhhhhhh!

      Don't push facts at him, you'll ruin his silly hard money fantasies.

    6. Re:Expensive metal is expensive by doconnor · · Score: 1

      A bubble describes the social phenomena of the price of something rising because people believing it will continue to rise based on recent experience.

      "Markets are fundamentally unpredictable in the same sense that the weather is."

      Just like the weather you can predict where markets will probably be a few days from now, but there is no way to predict exactly where it will be five years from now.

      Just like the weather, general trends can be predicted far in advance, like winter will be cold and summer will be hot, there will be global warming and the economy will expand (unless there is global warming).

    7. Re:Expensive metal is expensive by AlienIntelligence · · Score: 1

      They are expensive because of the recession. It is common for people to move their money into "safer" investments like silver and gold during a recession. That leads to a precious metals bubble making these investments highly dangerous, which of course, attracts even more money.

      True 'precious metals' or ones used by governments
      and countries as an exchange medium for debt and
      a hedge against inflation, cannot truly bubble. That
      is why we use them.


      An economic bubble (sometimes referred to as a speculative bubble, a market bubble, a price bubble, a financial bubble, a speculative mania or a balloon) is “trade in high volumes at prices that are considerably at variance with intrinsic values”.[1][2] It could also be described as a trade in products or assets with inflated values.
      {snip}
      Because it is often difficult to observe intrinsic values in real-life markets, bubbles are often conclusively identified only in retrospect, when a sudden drop in prices appears. Such a drop is known as a crash or a bubble burst. Both the boom and the burst phases of the bubble are examples of a positive feedback mechanism, in contrast to the negative feedback mechanism that determines the equilibrium price under normal market circumstances. Prices in an economic bubble can fluctuate erratically, and become impossible to predict from supply and demand alone.

      If you look at the long term growth of gold,
      http://www.kitco.com/LFgif/au3650nyb.gif
      you'll see it is experiencing healthy overall
      growth without having any "out of curve"
      spikes.

      If you were to use that chart in a program
      that has indicators and signals you would
      see that while you'll get an overbought signal,
      it is far from being in a bubble state.

      That is also not to say that at some point
      it might not relax... maybe lose 20%. But
      that is far from a bubble.

      If you were alive long enough to remember
      the problems with gasoline that the US had,
      you'll see that gold saw a very healthy spike
      as a hedge against the cost of the barrel of
      oil in the 70's. As well as the US being taken
      off the gold standard and presented with fiat
      currency at the beginning of the 70's.

      http://www.kitco.com/LFgif/au75-pres.gif

      The slump in the late 90's was caused by
      our leadership trimming the national (US)
      debt.

      And the explosion of a real bubble, plus the
      start of a war in the Middle east, helped to
      bring gold right back from its slump.

      The hiccup at the end of 07 was in response
      to the bank and real estate bubble bursting
      and the economies becoming destabilized.

      I'm sure we are at a higher than graphed level
      now because of the depression but that too
      will be absorbed and the price of gold will find
      its level again.

      -AI

      --
      For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion
    8. Re:Expensive metal is expensive by Tenebrousedge · · Score: 1

      A bubble describes the social phenomena of the price of something rising because people believing it will continue to rise based on recent experience.

      A meaningless definition. Bubbles are defined in retrospect, i.e. the stock takes a nose dive, at which point you will construct a narrative that says it was supposed to happen.

      Just like the weather you can predict where markets will probably be a few days from now, but there is no way to predict exactly where it will be five years from now.

      I'm glad you understood the analogy. You don't seem to consider the conclusions though. Markets are less predictable than the weather; with weather systems all the inputs are known. Global Warming is an unpredictable emergent effect of random behavior. The analogous events in financial markets would be any market crash, and these unsurprisingly occur far more often than GW. Worse, with weather systems there are fundamental physical limits on their effects, there are no such fundamental limitations with financial systems.
      Further Reading
      Black Swan: The Impact of the Highly Improbable by Nassim Taleb

      Misbehavior of Markets: A Fractal View of Financial Turbulence by Benoit Mandelbrot

      --
      Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
    9. Re:Expensive metal is expensive by doconnor · · Score: 1

      Many people recognized the US housing and .com bubbles before they burst. When the gold price crashes, you can dig up this comment and apologies.

      "Global Warming is an unpredictable emergent effect of random behavior."

      Scientists first predicted global warming many decades ago. If we had understood how the atmosphere work earlier we would have been predicted it even sooner.

      While I don't deny unpredictable things happen that can cause rapid rise in prices, a bubble is where there is a rise in price no reason related to actual support or demand.

      Humans are often irrational, but since they are irrational in consistent ways, rather then randomness, they produces predictable and exploitable patterns, like bubbles.

    10. Re:Expensive metal is expensive by Tenebrousedge · · Score: 1

      Many people recognized the US housing and .com bubbles before they burst. When the gold price crashes, you can dig up this comment and apologies.

      You're placing way too much faith in humanity's predictive power. We consistently overestimate it. Saying gold will crash is no more predictive, in fact, than saying it will snow in Phoenix. The when and the why are chaotic, and in the case of financial markets and other systems more complicated than snowflakes, fundamentally unknowable.

      I have no idea other than naive delusion what would make you think that the actions of any individual human are predictable, let alone the collective actions of the species. I'm sorry if your financial ideas depend on humans being in any part rational actors.

      An argument for Unpredictability in Markets
      Major premise: Chaotic systems (those which exhibit turbulent behavior) are unpredictable. This is mathematically true.
      Minor premise: Financial markets are chaotic systems. Benoit Mandelbrot is generally considered to have mathematically proven this.
      Conclusion: Financial markets are unpredictable.

      If you want to argue with Mandelbrot, you should read his book.

      --
      Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
    11. Re:Expensive metal is expensive by doconnor · · Score: 1

      If markets are truly they should be shut down because they are failing to serve their purpose in our economic system (not that they aren't doing a really crappy job anyway)

      There is chaos and unpredictability in the markets, but they are still bound by the realities of supply and demand. Unexpected things can happen to supply and demand that can cause unexpected things to happen to the market, but if that isn't happening, then an unjustified price increase is probably a bubble.

  10. What's next? I'll tell you what's next... by h1q · · Score: 4, Insightful

    What's next from these ingenious companies?

    A patent of course.

  11. Shrug by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    MacGyver wouldn't have needed the pen. He would have made his own conductive ink from a paperclip. - www.awkwardengineer.com

  12. I am surprised by Osgeld · · Score: 3, Insightful

    They didn't claim to invent the fucking paper too

    as others have pointed out this has been around for decades, and you can make your own ghetto version using copper radiator repair solution

    1. Re:I am surprised by okmen22 · · Score: 0

      2 ! thask you ! i am viet nam diyer http://toilam.com/

  13. New? by solidraven · · Score: 1

    So they spend time making something that already exists. Go to any art store and you'll be able to buy silver ink pens. And the roller variants don't work well on PCBs actually. So you're better of with other versions. I don't get how this sort of things even make it onto news sites. This has about the same quality level as the "force field" thing some computer science students came up with last month.

    1. Re:New? by AlienIntelligence · · Score: 1

      And the roller variants don't work well on PCBs actually.

      I think that's why everything in the article was pointing
      in every direction EXCEPT rigid PCBs., ie, paper.

      You are correct about everything else tho.

      -AI

      --
      For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion
  14. Another use by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

    It might also be useful for repairing electrical connections for circuit traces especially on boards that flex. I would love something like this since I could fix the window control on my car since the drivers door window controls no longer control the rear passenger side window and I don't want to spend the money for a new switch unit, if I can even find one.

    --
    Time to offend someone
    1. Re:Another use by drussell · · Score: 1

      The long-available repair pens have always worked just fine on the many flexible things I've used them on... Repair or new construction, even repeated flexing. *PERHAPS* it is more durable or something but the article doesn't say... This is ridiculous! Who allows this kind of crap to make it onto /. ??! Oh, for the good ol' days...

  15. Sure, sure... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "engineers at the University of Illinois have developed a silver-inked rollerball pen that allows users to jot down electrical circuits and interconnects on paper"

    As long as the "circuit" the user wants is a short!

  16. Radio shack even has it. by StillNeedMoreCoffee · · Score: 1

    http://www.radioshack.com/search/index.jsp?kwCatId=&kw=pen%20conductive%20ink&origkw=pen+conductive+ink&sr=1

    1. Re:Radio shack even has it. by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      That's where I got the one I used to enable reflash on my Xbox...

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  17. Devices more than just a circuit 'board' by macraig · · Score: 1

    I'd like to see how they gonna secure SMDs and BGAs to silver circuits scribbled on a bar napkin. Steve Wozniak no doubt would've loved if he coulda done that.

    1. Re:Devices more than just a circuit 'board' by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      The EXACT same way you do it when your baking it onto the board? You glue it on. Of course on a normal PCB when its then baked to melt the solder, it gets a much stronger bond from the solder ... but glue is what holds the SMDs and such on until they get baked.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    2. Re:Devices more than just a circuit 'board' by pz · · Score: 1

      I'd like to see how they gonna secure SMDs and BGAs to silver circuits scribbled on a bar napkin. Steve Wozniak no doubt would've loved if he coulda done that.

      All you need to do is look at the linked article to see that they have done exactly this for paper circuits.

      Conductive ink / glue (silver dust in an adhesive vehicle) is pretty standard stuff. I use it all the time in my lab to make connections that are simultaneously mechanically secure and electrically conductive.

      --

      Put my fist through my alarm clock with its ding-dong death inside my ear. - The Blackjacks.
    3. Re:Devices more than just a circuit 'board' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, there's also a p-pen, an n-pen, and tungsten pen (for ohmic contacts), so you can just draw your own transistors.

  18. Conductive tattoo ink by jdastrup · · Score: 3, Interesting

    That's what I would like to see, let's have someone put that metal jewelry and ink to use, attach a battery to your nose ring, embed an LED in your face, other cool stuff.

    1. Re:Conductive tattoo ink by vlm · · Score: 2

      That's what I would like to see, let's have someone put that metal jewelry and ink to use, attach a battery to your nose ring, embed an LED in your face, other cool stuff.

      Then there's the pr0n-industrial complex applications, that industry is always a leader in technology, at least behind the scenes. One person wears the battery, the other wears the cellphone motor, etc.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    2. Re:Conductive tattoo ink by Pope · · Score: 1

      "Lick/touch here to vibrate..." Dude, I like the way you think!

      --
      It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
  19. Give them time! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You know that the next thing is the paper. They just haven't got around to doing that yet.

  20. But it's a Ball Point by xquercus · · Score: 1

    In defense, this might be the first time a ball point pen has been used with conductive ink. While I've used conductive ink on boards before, they have all been felt tip pens. What benefit does a ball point have over felt tip? I have no idea.

    1. Re:But it's a Ball Point by vlm · · Score: 1

      What benefit does a ball point have over felt tip? I have no idea.

      Doesn't dry out as quick when the cap is off. You get to use it for more than 15 minutes.

      The more important reason is probably to avoid patents.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    2. Re:But it's a Ball Point by BitZtream · · Score: 2

      Yea, but do you know how well a ball point pen works on PCB? Pretty poorly, which is why we use felt.

      I'd bet a good chunk of money this isn't even the first 'ball point pen with conductive ink', its more likely that intelligent people realized a long time ago that ball point pens work really poorly on surfaces with no texture to cause them to roll ... like say a perfectly smooth fibreglass PCB backing that you'd want to draw conductive lines on.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    3. Re:But it's a Ball Point by bws111 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Which is probably why the article doesn't mention PCBs - it mentions paper, wood etc. The current felt pens work poorly on those surfaces, particularly if you flex them.

    4. Re:But it's a Ball Point by Gilmoure · · Score: 1

      *golf clap*

      --
      I drank what? -- Socrates
  21. Prototyping with a resist pen by drussell · · Score: 3, Informative

    Prototyping wouldn't normally be done using using conductive pens. The hand drawn stuff was usually a resist pen on the actual copper-clad board, then etched.

    1. Re:Prototyping with a resist pen by cvtan · · Score: 1

      You don't even need special resist pens. You can use ordinary indelible markers to draw on the copper and then use it as resist to etch the boards. Done it myself several times. OK if you only need one board for prototype. As far as the original article goes, silver loaded paint has been around for ages >40 years. It is called silver print. Not sure I would describe it as a way to make cheap circuits since I remember it being pretty expensive. See http://www.mouser.com/search/refine.aspx?N=4294953381&Keyword=silver%20print 0.3oz is $22 for the pen-type dispenser.

      --
      Sorry, but gray text on gray background is making my eyes bleed.
    2. Re:Prototyping with a resist pen by drussell · · Score: 1

      Yes, a resist pen is basically just a high quality, high-density ink Sharpie

    3. Re:Prototyping with a resist pen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've always just used Sharpie pens to do this. You don't need to pay extra for special pens to do this... Any permanent felt tip marker will work with the FeCl3 method of etching. I've also used laser printers to do it... To do that you just print out your schematic on a laser printer, apply the paper face down to the PC board, then iron the toner onto the board, and etch as normal.

    4. Re:Prototyping with a resist pen by M.+Baranczak · · Score: 1

      0.3oz is $22

      And still cheaper than an inkjet.

    5. Re:Prototyping with a resist pen by drussell · · Score: 1

      Yes, a regular Sharpie will work fine when it still makes a nice, solid line but for fine work or for filling large areas for high current you'll end up with holes if you aren't very careful. (Although if you're not careful you'll get holes even with a "real" resist pen.) The cheap, Radio Shack level prototyping kits just come with a sharpie.

    6. Re:Prototyping with a resist pen by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

      I used to draw the layout by hand on a transparent sheet, then photo-transfer it to a circuit board with a light-sensitive coating on the copper. Develop the stuff, wash away the light-exposed parts and etch. No "prototyping" though - just a teenager building radios and amplifiers in his basement lair....

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    7. Re:Prototyping with a resist pen by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      A bottle of the most expensive wine you can find at your local wine shop is cheaper than inkjet ink. Why anyone still buys those things, I have no idea.

  22. still no printer cartridges by quitte · · Score: 1

    wake me up when i can finally buy a cheap printer that creates circuit boards.

    1. Re:still no printer cartridges by ColdWetDog · · Score: 2

      wake me up when i can finally buy a cheap printer that creates circuit boards.

      Nap time over! I've been doing it for nearly a decade with an old LaserJet 4. Can't get much cheaper than that.

      1. Make circuit
      2. Print out on thermal resist paper on LaserJet
      3. Use modified laminator to bond resist to copper
      4. Etch
      5. Not Profit (screwed up circuit, again....)

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    2. Re:still no printer cartridges by quitte · · Score: 1

      Thanks. I'd prefer a solution that doesn't have steps 3 and 4 but I guess I could give this another try.
      I tried that a while with a laserjet 1000. but i couldn't find any paper that transfered the toner reliably. now that I have a laserjet that can control the amount of toner used i may give it a try.
      Could you explain to a non-native speaker what thermal resist paper is? It's not that stuff that becomes black when heated, is it?

    3. Re:still no printer cartridges by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      From what I've been able to determine, you NEED an LJ 4 with an 'old style' engine - lays down fine tracks better. You can still pick them up for a song. If I'm remembering this correctly (it's been a while since I started out), I tried it with an LJ 1200 or similar and it didn't work, just like they said it wouldn't. That's when I bought the 4.

      The resist paper is a special paper that bonds the printed tracks to the board. I'd give you the name, but I'm traveling and don't remember the company that produces it.

      The laminator was the real key. It's just a regular cheap thing for heat laminating plastic sheets over paper and then you set the rollers together a bit tighter to really heat the paper and fuse the plastic to the copper. It's still more of a PITA than you would like, but it works for fairly small traces.

      I suspect that there are some groups on the Internet that talk about this with some expertise.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
  23. The pen's ok... by chortick · · Score: 1

    The pen's ok, and reasonably priced, but they get you on the toner cartridges...

  24. Zuckerberg by mswhippingboy · · Score: 1

    Maybe Zuckerberg can get a patent for "System and Method for Using a a Silver-inked Rollerball Pen in a Social Network".

    --
    Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is the headlight of an oncoming train.
    1. Re:Zuckerberg by AlienIntelligence · · Score: 1

      Nah someone will forge a document and then try to sue him for copying their idea.

      -AI

      --
      For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion
  25. Advanced Materials by pz · · Score: 1

    The Gizmodo article linked in the summary is a blurb based on some research done at the University of Illinois, and, according to that blurb, published in the journal Advanced Materials ( http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/journal/10.1002/(ISSN)1521-4095 ). Looking at the current issue of Advanced Materials, the work doesn't show up, but there are a slew of other articles that the Slashdot crowd might find very interesting.

    --

    Put my fist through my alarm clock with its ding-dong death inside my ear. - The Blackjacks.
  26. #2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    #2 pencils do the same thing.

  27. Slashdot has reached a new low by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    News from more than two decades ago.

    Is there anyone left in the Slashdot team who actually has knowledge about the things they edit as news?

    1. Re:Slashdot has reached a new low by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

      There's this new game console coming out, but it's from a little-known company that used to make playing cards. I wish them luck but I really don't think they'll be able to beat Atari, Intellivision and Colecovision.

  28. what hobbyists need. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What hobbyists need is a set of stencils to put down footprints for surface mount devices.And then a way to draw traces between them. It would be sort of like drawing with resist ink except no etching. And with surface mount you don't have to worry about reversing the pinout to draw on the back side. Someone could make a dollar or two off this idea!

  29. your mom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    for those that say, we have seen this for years...

    well, this story is like your mom. We have been hitting her for years and you just found out about her? ha ha ha ha ha....

  30. Informative? by drussell · · Score: 1

    Who's moderating these things? :)

  31. Need clarification by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Maybe I'm wrong but I thought the main point was that the circuit itself is on ordinary paper. So no circuit board or etch board would be needed.

  32. Disposable? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What's with that fucking "disposable" mindset? Is it only an American thing? And isn't silver rare and valuable?

  33. I can "feel" it now... by Type44Q · · Score: 1

    DIY electronic toilet paper, here we come!

  34. Radio Shack carries These! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ok, I just saw in my local Radio Shack a pen just like this! http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3964901
    If this can make news, then I have a new story... Local Geek invents diode that emits light. He is calling them Light emitting Diodes or (LED's). He is willing to license this technology for a mere $5 per LED.

  35. Time to draw me out a 6503! by CodeShark · · Score: 1

    Okay, just joking. But IIRC the fellow who designed the 6502 that started the PERSONAL microcomputer revolution big-time, AKA Apple, Commodore, etc. drew the masks by hand and to most people's astonishment got it right on the first interconnect cut. Hand him the pen and let him loose!

    --
    ...Open Source isn't the only answer -- but it's almost always a better value than the alternatives...
  36. Not fucking news! by Kaz+Kylheku · · Score: 1

    This has been done for decades.

    Why don't you check some old 1960's Popular Mechanics on Google before embarrassing yourselves?

  37. My question by sean.peters · · Score: 1

    Being able to make the leads with a pen is all very nice, but what about actual components? Call me when you can draw a functioning capacitor, transistor, etc. Until then, I don't really know what you'd do with this.

    1. Re:My question by multipartmixed · · Score: 1

      I suspect if you drew the symbol for a non-polar capacitor on regular paper, that you would actually make one. They might even be useful in high-frequency applications!

      Ditto for a resistor, although you might need a lot of squiggles for it to resist much.

      --

      Do daemons dream of electric sleep()?
  38. Watch out! by Thuktun · · Score: 2

    Perhaps I've read too much Charlie Stross, but this story immediately think that users should be careful what they draw with this pen...

  39. games? by odirex · · Score: 1

    There must be some clever way to make a cool card or board game using this, but I can't think of it yet. :)

  40. High electrical resistance? by Theovon · · Score: 1

    This pen is laying down particles of silver in a binder. Sadly, the article says nothing about resistance, but it's got to be much higher than what you'd get with a pure silver trace, no?

    1. Re:High electrical resistance? by black+soap · · Score: 1

      That's why you electroplate it with copper. Duh.

  41. DUH!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hey, it's engineers, when have you ever heard of them not reinventing the wheel to solve every problem they tackle. Leave them alone, unsupervised and they will come up with a more complicated, more time consuming and more expensive way to do all most anything.

  42. Also in the news! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    People have invented a brand new way of switching electrical circuits using electricity. The students who developed this brand new technology are calling it the electroswitch and forsee that it will one day allow fully electrical computers, which will compete agains todays errr, other types of computers.

    Seriusly, these pens have been around for decades. What's the news? That some random students don't know how to search google before they set in to motion their universities media department?