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Ask Slashdot: How To Safely Saw Up Motherboards?
James-NSC writes "I like to do arts and crafts. I've been saving up motherboards for a while as a new medium and I started working on it last night. I wore the same gear I wear while painting – fine particulate respirator and safety goggles. I just cut some templates out of some motherboards and when I was done I used the shop-vac to clean myself & workspace up before removing my mask. Even after 5+ minutes, in a well ventilated area (not as well as it should have been apparently) my first breath was pins and needles. I'm looking into containment and exhaust solutions – ala baby's first iron lung, but seriously, am I nuts? Are these materials just too toxic to work with?"
Motherboards are essentially epoxy bound fiberglass. If you are going to be sawing it up, you need gear that is designed for extremely fine stiff fibers. You need filtration equipment suitable for removing fiberglass, or better yet asbestos, particles from the air.
Good luck. Try not to give yourself lung cancer.
-- This sig is only a test. If this were a real sig it would say something witty. --
Or things even worse. You can do this, but you're going to need pretty hefty realtime dust collection; I suppose it's possible that a Rainbow water-curtain vac might be enough, but I'm not sure.
I'll bet someone else will be sure. :-)
And I'm not sure if you can finish off the cut edge of a board to a point where it won't unravel -- or at least, how you would do so.
People *do* do this: I have a favorite notebook whose covers are circuit boards. But it's non-trivial.
Here, I google this for u.
http://pcplus.techradar.com/feature/hardware/how-motherboards-are-made-13-07-10
U google the rest
Even after 5+ minutes, in a well ventilated area (not as well as it should have been apparently) my first breath was pins and needles.
Your first breath? Try breathing more often?
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
t one of those isolation boxes used for sandblasting of small objects. That should keep stuff out of the air and some of them can be vented either to a filter or the outside.
I would consider getting a large sand blasting cabinet.
-- Chris Martin, System Administrator
Maybe coat them in polyurethane first, or some sort of mix-then-pour&set resin - something that will bind the fibers of the board, but itself only creates a non-irritating powder when cut. I am thinking along the lines of how asbestos insulation is contained and dealt with - is a wet saw an option?
Here's hoping you don't develop mesothelioma.
Look up the MSDS for FR-4 PCB material.
http://www.isola-group.com/docs/isola_files/GetekFR4LaminateMSDSDecember2006Final.pdf
Use metal shears.
The fine particulates of the motherboard are being put into the air, just a shop vac will only get what's on the floor and the respirator will only help as long as you have it on. I hope this area isn't near children or animals -- someone could get very sick. If you're breathing pins and needles, you need to stop, go to a home-improvement store and talk to someone about the materials you're sawing up and they'd be able to recommend the best gear. You're really going to need a full ventilation and filtration system though and it could cost a lot. You're going to need an area that's tight from the rest of the house/workspace, a filtration system for the air to suck all the particles out and a way in/out of that area. But the people at the store would know better than I do. For your health and safety, breathing 'pins and needles' is *telling you something*: STOP! What you're doing is hurting and possibly killing you. You could have complications from this later in life. Any particulate matter can contribute to long-term issues with breathing, something piercing your lungs, you should go to the doctor for. There could be metal fragments in your lungs that could get into your bloodstream. This could seriously cause issues for you.
Solution: GO TO A DOCTOR ASAP, then go to a home improvement store and ask them the best method for a ventilation system or just stop doing this all together.
Don't breathe that stuff in. You might catch a virus.
"We live in a global world" - Harvey Pitt, former Securities and Exchange Commission Chairman
When cutting things that make lots of dust, its best (if possible) to cut them underwater, or submerged in a fluid. This way none of the particulates become airborne.
Asbestos on the other hand is a bi-product of a fungus
quack alert !
Jehovah be praised, Oracle was not selected
Scuba Gear...
HEPA or similar air filter might help, as well as Organic rated filters on a respirator. Or perhaps just do it outdoors?
...and you ARE risking your health!
I'd do it outside in the middle of my yard with a fan or two blowing everything away from me. I'd be wearing the mask too. But I really like the underwater idea....
Once it gets into the air, fine fiberglass dust is going to remain there a good while. It's light enough that it will effectively never settle in any useful amount of time, and your typical house probably doesn't completely recycle its internal atmosphere nearly fast enough to solve the problem that way.
If you are going to be doing much of this, you might want to consider building a negative-pressure work area large enough for your tools and workpiece to be comfortably manipulated:
Basically, a reasonably adequately sealed box(doesn't need to, and won't, be airtight, because of the negative pressure) with a slot for you to stick your hands in, a plexiglass window to see what you are doing, and a shop vac or similar pulling air out of the box and through a HEPA filter. Because of the suction, air will continually be flowing into the box(preventing the egress of most dust, even though the box isn't fully sealed) and the dust-contaminated air will be filtered before it leaves to ruin your day. Still probably not a bad idea to have the outflow vent outdoors, rather than into the room; but the filter should scrub most of it.
I use a guillotine for cutting PCBs and since it shears rather than cuts there is pretty much no dust generated.
electric and fast. the water captures the dust.
First off, you need the correct saw blade.
Most motherboards (all? I've never seen one on phenolic), are G-10 fiberglass.
G-10 Fiberglass is nasty stuff. While it will not give you cancer (this has been studied because people thought fiberglass seems similar to asbestos, but it isn't) it's definitely an irritant. Your lungs will expel the fibers.
That said:
Wear a dust mask. A full nose-and-mouth mask from the hardware store is fine. You don't need to go overboard.
Use a vacuum pickup.
Use the correct saw blade. A silicon carbide blade (particles bonded to a steel band saw blade) is ideal.
You also might want to try using a tile cutter saw that uses an abrasive blade and flood water cooling.
Don't try to cut with a steel blade.
--
BMO
You all DO know there's this thing called "outdoors", right? Negative-pressure containment, HEPA filters, blast shields... how about a cheap box fan and the good ol' outdoors?
You are using neither the proper tools nor proper containment nor proper suit nor respirator for machining fiberglass. It is dangerous, it can damage your lungs, eyes and other parts of your body, it can give you cancer.
Can you maybe score one or even both sides with a razor knife, then snap it ?
google image search 'china pollution' or 'china ewaste'
thats where all our 'green recycling programs' dump our e-trash
if they can breathe it, surely we can!
Try getting the motherboard wet first and keep it wet whilst cutting... It will stop the dust from floating in the air. That with some air filter and you should be fine.
I'm surprised that you didn't mention subluxation once. Don't you need a Doctorate in Chiropracty to discuss cancer?
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Asbestos is a rock you idiot. From peridotite mostly - you know the damn mantle where funguses are not exactly common.
10cm carbide blade table saw: http://www.bastli.ethz.ch/index.php?page=bastli_circularsaw including vacuum attachment.
Video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTVCvn05nYQ&feature=player_embedded
I only post comments when someone on the internet is wrong.
Just hold your breath for the duration of the sawing + another five minutes just to be sure.
Slashdot's first reaction to VMware
If I'm not mistaken, you're working with lead. If lead gets hot you can breathe the vapors and it could be thrown into the air as dust. I worked with lead for many years and my advice is to steer clear of it. You could also expose yourself to other heavy metals.
built a containment box with a plexiglass top and cut holes and attached welding gloves. kind of like one of those bio hazard boxes they use in labs. you could make the cuts and then let the dust settle in the cabinet then do some removal.
Video of a laser cutting fiberglass
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVf0JOi1W2Y
Whoever moderated this "flame bait" needs their ass kicked. That was the funniest thing I've read all week.
If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.
don't use a saw. Use pressure.
The way they cut the motherboard safely for notebook covers is by using multi-ton presses. The even use presses to punch out the rivet holes for attaching the hardware to the cut motherboards. There will be no particulates to speak of but the only drawback is that you can only cut straight lines. If he is wanting to cut out anything more than a straight edge he might have to experiment with nibbling away small sections until he gets the shape he wants.
With a little thought he could probably design an adequate press using commonly available bottle stye hydraulic jacks. A few things he needs to be aware. Since the cutting time will be slower than a industrial press, it is possible he will splinter the board along the edge being cut. This can probably be avoided using a sharp cutting edge, or possibly a scissor type cutting action.
After the piece is cut, a little urethane should be enough to seal the edges to keep them from unraveling.
SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0
0 rows returned
Thanks man, I appreciate it.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Easy - just do it outside on a real windy day. The wind will carry all the nasty junk away.
Correct me if im wrong, but doesnt the velocity of the blade influence the debris cloud. You'd probably still have a few airborne particles, but it seems that using some industrial scissors would produce less dust-like debris; instead you might get chunks of on leftover mobo. It might be a poor analogy, but consider slicing through a wood plank with a table saw. Then cut that same piece of wood using a well placed swing from a heavy axe. The table saw would produce a pile of saw dust while the heady blade would cut straight or produce wood chips.
Try scoring with a Utility knife (Several times on both sides) then snap (away from you). Alternatively you can use a metal shear (http://www.micromark.com/Mini-Metal-Shear-and-Brake,9645.html) to cut PCB boards. This will avoid the dust problem to begin with. I would not recommend cutting the board with a saw since the dust will be everywhere and will settle everywhere and remain a hazard for an indefinate time.
Wow! This ignorant bozo (or lying douchebag that's going to get someone killed) doesn't know jack about the most basic components of cellular biology or mineralogy.
Mod down that idiot before anyone stupid and/or ignorant reads it and doesn't know its total B.S. of the lowest caliber.
(I don't have any mod points this week.)
Looks like Dr Bob or whatever the quacks name is is posting Anon now.
Yeah Lets here how having your Bones ADJUSTED will cure cancer.....Fucking Quacks
OP has very good advice. Take it. Understanding what negative and positive pressure can be very important in circumstances like this.
Ever wonder why dust collects so badly inside your PC? It's a negative pressure environment - the main power fan at the back blows hot air OUT of the computer, causing air to rush into every crack and orifice in your case, making your expensive electronics into a poor quality air filter. The dust collected is a byproduct of this fact.
I once was called in to deal with a computer in a very dusty environment. (they raised pets) Their computer required extremely frequent cleaning and despite this, they had numerous hardware failures. The CD ROM drive was pretty much always useless no matter how often it was replaced. Using a medium-sized box, a cheap 8" fan, and HEPA air filters and lots of duct tape, I made a large, low-pressure air filter that blew large amounts of HEPA purified air into the computer, creating a positive pressure inside the case of clean, filtered air. A year later, the computer had only traces of dust and was working perfectly, including the CD ROM drive!
In PPs example, you want to create a negative pressure environment to keep dust from getting OUT.
I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
Asbestos abatement equipment will filter the particles out of the air for the fiberglass. A shop-vac or industrial vacuum with a HEPA filter for fine dust will usually work well enough if it were simply fiberglass (it is not). A local shower, eye-wash station, protective suit, safety glasses and respiratory equipment will also be required (not just suggested) because of the other products and even if it were just fiberglass, getting that stuff in your clothing or on your skin or around your house may be an irritant.
Besides fiberglass a motherboard usually contains other metals, plastics, gasses and chemicals from the chips, solder, components, conduits which could contain toxic brominated substances (flame retardant), gold (still a heavy metal!), lead, silver, tin, aluminum, lithium, copper, mica, glass, ceramic, electrolyte fluid and that's just off the top of my head.
Unless you can make a machine that's entirely closed off and properly filtered to do the cutting, washing extensively and waste removal autonomous I would NOT suggest you do this AT ALL. Get a recycler to pick up the stuff. Also, your "arts and crafts project" result may have to be classified as hazardous material/waste or require at least an MSDS.
Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
1 Word.....
DRUGS
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If your not GET SOME, YOU NEED IT
It is possibly the irritant you breathed in is fibreglass dust but it is also possible that it is fumes from cutting too fast. Blade speed has a big impact on the dispersal of dust and fumes. If the blade moves too fast one can actually burn the fibreglass and produce irritating fumes. My suggestion would be to use a scroll saw with a vacuum attachment and cut using the slowest speed possible. Make sure you use a water filter attachment or a drywall filter in the shopvac. Drywall filters are finer than regular filters and will catch more fibres. If possible, do it outside or at least put the shopvac outside.
GO TO A DOCTOR. "pins and needles" = not good. Get informed.
There are heavy metals in more of the electronics than most people think. The pins and needles was most likely fiberglass. There may be things like mercury and cadmium (amongst other impurities) in Mobos.
Why can't we go back to using jumpers to configure slot adapter cards? Why? I say!
Many small hand help circular power saws come with a vacuum bag and system that sucks the debris into the bag. That should take care of most particulate matter, but if it's an out-gassing problem of some kind then you probably need better ventilation.
9/11 Eyewitnesses to Explosive WTC Demolition 1 of 2
Get a room air filter, AKA a HEPA filter. That will clear the air. Keep wearing the mask, just leave the room and let the room air filter do it's job for 30min (or more). Wonderful things.
You are asking an IT forum about an industrial health and safety question?
You are definately in trouble... :p
Wow! This ignorant bozo (or lying douchebag that's going to get someone killed) doesn't know jack about the most basic components of cellular biology or mineralogy. Mod down that idiot before anyone stupid and/or ignorant reads it and doesn't know its total B.S. of the lowest caliber. (I don't have any mod points this week.)
Oh no! A stupid person might harm themselves by believing and taking medical advice from every idiot who comes along. Shit man, we might LOSE a MORON! That would make me sad. We have such precious few of them to spare and the ones we have left are so timid, never ever overestimating their own competence or importance. Why, if their own stupidity did them in that would be terrible INJUSTICE! We must prevent this even if that's to our grevious detriment.
... you think choosing to take medical advice from Joe Random Anonymous Coward and getting hurt makes somebody a victim of Joe Random Anonymous Coward. Your heart's in the right place, but that's just stupid and there's no sense in treating adult people like helpless children. You really don't want to live in the kind of society that would create. We're already dangerously close to that particular form of horribly micromanaged dystopia.
We sure as hell don't want a world where adult people make their free choices and live with the consequences, no sir! Some people would have better lives than others based on the quality of their decision-making, and that would be so UNFAIR. There's nothing more UNFAIR than a world where everybody who makes good choices tends to have good "fortune" and everybody knows it. What we should REALLY do is acquire political power so we can try to force reality to adhere to our theory of how it should be. Surely we are more sophisticated than insisting on theories which adhere to reality. That's why we can afford to ignore questions like whether this has been tried before and how that worked out, because we're special and the history of these ideas doesn't apply to us.
Oh, wait, right
Damn. That means I probably can't reason with you. No matter how hard I try, I just can't reason with denial of the obvious. Within your own faulty frame of reference your denial seems perfectly valid and you have an alternative victim-based explanation for everything that's really about personal responsibility. They are two theories that both explain the phenomena observed; it's just that one theory is only an explanation. The other also gives you the ability to change which phenomena you experience so you tell me which is better.
heat it up and slice it.
doofus
Dude you are working in the wrong medium.
Try something with less impact on the environment.
Glass fiber plastic ("fiberglass") is really a rather nasty material from a resource sustainability point of view.
Purple Wave had a bunch of exhaust hoods listed - check government and state/private surplus sales and get yourself a good chemical exhaust hood, and make yourself a HEPA or fine particulate filtration system from supplies somewhere like McMaster-Carr.
You are risking your LUNGS over an ART PROJECT. Even if this is non carcinogenic, who knows what kinds of trauma to the fine structures of your lungs it could do over longer times. Is it really worth it? In case you're wondering, the answer is: No.
I don't know if you are doing straight lines or not, but if you are, the way to go would be "score and snap". This will reduce your dust production to essentially nil, no fancy gear required.
http://slashdot.org/~Dr.Bob%2CDC/
Dr. Bob, is that you? It's pretty sad that you have a bigger karma bonus by posting Anon than you would by using your real account.
Women are like electronics: you don't know how damaged they are until you try to turn them on.
You should get your hands on the G-10 material safety data sheet, which will list all health hazards and precautions.
That is what I use. No dust.
Not sure where you dug up those obscure references, but they are not relevant. Warburg's and Rife's research is far too old to be relevant to today's knowledge of human biology and biochemistry, let alone materials science and mycology. For one, during their time (1883-1971) asbestos was a good thing. Referencing them is like referencing research from when everyone thought the Earth was flat. The other guy you bring up I couldn't find anywhere credible. If he is an M.D., Ph.D. then he's nuttier than a fruitcake!
But, if you believe asbestos is harmless there are some really old buildings at my university you can go into and smack old insulation and take deep breaths. I'll watch from a video surveillance camera from the other side of campus, thank you.
I'd just use a pair of tin snips and avoid sawing altogether.
Yes, you are crazy. Use something that won't cause you to die of cancer. There are towns in China that try to make their living reclaiming metals from PCB boards - people don't live long, happy lives there for a reason...
You fucking pussy.
In a 'shop making telephone boards in the '60s, we heated the sheets in ovens before the big presses hit them. Put our pies for lunch in those ovens too. Then, open drilling and open flow-solder. Citric acid for drinks came from the (gold) plating 'shop - "other bottle, boy, that one's the cyanide". Never did *me* any harm.
Maybe not the most envirpnmentally friendly, but why don't you just do it outside?
I see what you're saying and it sounds like, "MOM i'll be up for food LATER i'm listening to a speech by AYN RAND she's so COOL!"
No, we don't want to be in a world where idiots die. Nor do we want to be in a world where people offering good advice are shouted down by angry impotents like you who have no real power so instead assert your superiority over the most vulnerable.
Let's instead live in a world of balance, where those who are less able receive a degree of support which doesn't put impossible burden on others but which does lift them up to the point where they are safe and able to join in.
Are you talking about naked boards or actual motherboards with all the components? You're not specific, but your post makes it seem like you're really scared of the toxins, but a naked board is just fiberglass?
As a fellow artist and geek, if you're thinking of sawing up boards with the all the components attached, I would say that's probably a bad idea.
Have you tried score-and-snap instead of sawing? Get the right type of knife, indent the board, and break it along the indent.
And now your environment is incredibly polluted and in dire need of toxic cleanup!
Do it outdoors in your backyard. And set up a big fan with some oomph behind you. Doing this kind of thing in an enclosed space (on a limited budget anyways) is asking for it.
Probably be a good idea to use at least a disposable mask of some kind too, to pick up any stragglers.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
build a lab box, with exhaust through a body of water/filters. then add glove holes like you've seen on simpsons. remember to leave a water sprayer inside so you can clean the dust from the parts before. motherboards aren't too big, so should be possible. if you filter the air going inside it too you can use it for treating parts(with acid, really glossy paints etc) as well. If I had a bigger apartment I'd build that, mainly for painting things.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Use a manual saw with a blade for iron. Saw slowly. This will avoid the really fine particles. Also make sure your vacuum has a HEPA 10 filter or the like. I have been using that for FR4 (standard mainboard material) for quite some time. My vacuum is an older Phillips type (T519) and the filter bags are Swirl PH84 with a HEPA 10 layer. Not expensive, but really good.
The second thing to really, really avoid is sawing through components. There is all sorts of toxic stuff in electrolyte capacitors, for example. If you need a straight cut and a component is in the way, desolder it before cutting.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
At least remove the electrolyte capacitors and the cmos buffer battery before cutting.....
I understand that you use a complicated technological product, which is considered to be special waste, without having read the necessary documents on ho to process (if that is possible) this product.
that would be the same as the instructions for a ShopVac bong.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
Indeed, I fail to see how a *mineral* substance can be fungally derived.
What's next, mushrooms pooping out rocks?
Alternative: use flamethrowers installed in numerous places in the room.
Warning: be sure to password-protect the submerge/incinerate buttons.
Everyone understands that asbestos is not fungus derived.
Everyone might NOT understand, however, that bullshit in one part of a post is contagious and infects the rest of the post.
Fantastic trolling, kudos senor.
They are a pretty recent invention and not many people know about them. They are made to cut glass and can cut intricate curved shapes. They use water for cooling the blade and all the debris ends up in the tank. There is no airborne dust at all, and its relatively quiet for a saw. I have one and it's a fantastic tool. You can hold and cut tiny pieces by hand and even run your fingers into the blade without fear, yet it will easily cut cleanly through metal, glass and ceramic. I found a nice demo video of one at http://www.gryphoncorp.com/index.php?p=ringsaw. (I own a similar ring saw made by Taurus). They are the perfect tool for cleanly and safely cutting circuit boards into artistic forms.
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If you are working only with circuit boards that contain no components, then you can use a sheet metal shear. I used to work in a custom circuit board manufacturing plant. This is what we used to cut the raw material. It produces almost no dust.
For high-speed drilling and routing we used a CNC machine with a hood that sealed completely and vented the air to a special filter mounted on the roof. However, the operators still got some of the dust on their skin and it would cause skin irritations occasionally. I imagine they were less safe than the owners of the company let on.
If you can do it, the wet-sawing idea seems to be the best. However, that requires special equipment, unless you are just using a hand saw. If you are just using a hand saw, you could simply put a tool bench in the shower and run the shower over your work as you cut. You could keep yourself relatively dry by using a clear shower curtain with a couple of slits cut in it for your arms to poke through.
The next best option is to use a vented hood and vent the air to the outside through a HEPA filter. Make sure you are moving plenty of cubic feet of air through the system to make sure that no dust drifts back in your direction.
Well, if you put a lovecraftian angle on it, maybe asbestos is the fossilized crap of the Mi-Go, the fungi from Yuggoth? I have to admit, though, that if this is the most rational explanation I can up with, there might be a problem with the whole argument...
Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
The Old Ones take me! The voice of reason. On slashdot. Did you take a wrong turn, or why did you show up here? ;)
Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
Most people here had computers from a very early age, some of them still keep them, if not for the sentimental value, then because they simply can't see something so precious go to waste, I can't really tell you how many stories I've read here about people reusing their old computers for various projects, scrapping them for parts when they were really burned out.
Now, we have a "modern artist" that cuts them up to make "art". Kid, I hope you go to Hell.
As others have suggested, do the cuts under water. Some people have suggested something like a tile saw, which often have water-cooled blades, but even that will produce plenty of particulates, albeit not as much as dry cutting. If you do try this approach, still wear breathing protection and put as much water on there as possible. Hook up a garden hose if you have to. The other approach is to buy or build a glovebox and do all your cutting inside it. You might even be able to improvise something using plastic bags. The other obvious solution is to do it outside, and then hose down the area where you did the cutting after you're done.
Use a guillotine. A big foot operated version has no problems going thru pcb's.
I use a throatless shear: no dust, easy to use, works great, doesn't get messed up by the FR4.
http://www.harborfreight.com/throatless-shear-38413.html
This would be a bit beyond the reach of a normal workshop, but a water jet would do the cutting just fine, incorporate particle capture (via water), and leave clean edges that would not fray.
See this video for a demonstration:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FIsrYzyvlg&feature=related
- An Anonymous Coward
Scoring a PCB with a x-acto knife (that will wear out quickly) both sides and then "snap" the board (properly supported by the score) is my favorite PCB cutting method. Almost no fiber/dust release into the air.
I actually am a composites engineer - we work with the materials made out of fiberglass and epoxy all the time, and more exotic materials as well like aerospace grade carbon fiber and high temperature resins. These materials can be safely cut if you have the right tools, which I'll go through and then suggest what you may be able to do as a "do-it-yourself" option.
1) For any fiber reinforced polymer, to cut through it you will have to have a high speed saw (which you have) but it will kick up two types of particles - tiny pieces of broken epoxy (micron sized dust) and tiny fiberglass strands, which many others have listed here as problematic for your health. A HEPA grade half-face respirator (one that fully seals around the mouth and nose) will address the inhalation, and goggles will address anything else kicked up by the cutting, but, these are secondary protection to the main protection, which is a wet saw. You have to cut these things while they are covered with a steady thin flow of water. The water effectively washes away the particles as you cut through them. Or at least it captures about 90% of the particles as we found during a NIOSH study done in our labs. This is why we wear the filters and gloves and goggles to catch the rest. If you don't have a wet saw you may be able to engineer one, crudely, as I'll describe below.
2) Other secondary protective gear you should have would include something to cover your arms and chest depending upon how much dust you kick up. Just because you haven't inhaled it doesn't mean you haven't landed the particles on your skin somewhere. You can buy disposable Tyvek fabric "suits" which will protect you from any dust the wet saw misses. They're a bit hot to work in for a long time, but they do the job and after you sweat/stink them up - out they go in the trash.
3) With circuit boards, you also have the fun of dealing with the components, some of which cut through fine, and others you should never cut through (capacitors for example). I would recommend removing all components from your cut line before you start cutting through it. It may mess up the ascetics of what you're making, but you'll be much better off if they are removed and you put them back later via super glue or some other adhesive.
4) So let's address the make-shift wet saw. Obviously you can't immerse your saw in water (unless you want to electrocute yourself) so either you have to isolate the power supply to the motor (fully insulated and waterproof), or engineer a small hose to direct water onto the cut line while you very slowly cut into the board. You want the water flow to be enough to keep the surface fully wet while cutting, but not a river. If you're creating a water-fountain when you cut, the flow is too much. You also want a platform to lay the board upon so you can make your straight cuts - you're feeding the water-covered cut line into the blade, not running the blade into the board. So the platform should be metal or something else water-proof, but if metal, make sure it's something that doesn't rust or you can remove to clean and dry.
I will admit that the make-shift wet saw can work, but, you'd probably be better off investing in a proper wet saw for your work from a ease of use and safety perspective. You can probably even get one at a machine shop or factory auction when a company goes out of business.
Best of luck.
-When going for broke, go for Ithaca!
Would a laser cutter be useful? I assume that it would seal the edges or at least not generate dust fibers.
Avoiding lung and eye damage I once cut various circuit boards motherboards by scoring a grove and snapping the board in a vice. Breaks along the scored grove weren't bad. It was surprising how strong mobos are and how far they'll bend before breaking. Had some luck with a hammer and chisel to snap clean through various electronic components. I hope your art turns out better than my halfwit attempt.
After logging in slashdot still does not take you back to the page you were on. It's been that way for 20 years.
The best way to reduce the dust is to stop using tools that atomize the material.
Try something like Enco 130-5715, or any other 'PCB shear' or small machinist's shear/break. Shears separate and don't really remove material, so it's a lot cleaner than a saw. Use it for long straight cuts, and then use a PCB nibbler for detail work. Only use a sander for the final work as needed.
OK, I work on and design electronics as part of my day job. Motherboards consist, yes, of many layers of fiberglass. But, in between all those layers and on the top and bottom are layers of copper. Further, the top and bottom of the boards are typically covered with solder mask and a layer of solder where all the pin and pads of the components are going to go.
Now, this isn't the bad old days where tin-lead solder was prevalent.. Unless you're getting your motherboards from some old stock, in which case your sawing around is going to throw significant lead dust into the air and into >you. Lead free solders are nice, but now you're talking about significant amounts of silver, copper, bismuth, and other metals into the air along with all that fiberglass dust.
Do yourself a favor: small, micropore breather masks. I like the idea of "wet" sawing, preferably underwater. And the water, after the fact, might legitimately be considered toxic.
So, are you against all fraud laws? Is theft ok if someone left their door open?
It's asinine to suggest that anything bad that happens as a result of a bad actor is the victim's fault if it was preventable by them being smarter, stronger, or more powerful. It's really fucked up, it's happens to be the exact opposite of how law works, and it ignores the plain fact that even among smart people, there's differing capacity, and that not all victims of crime are "less smart" across all problem domains. Con men LOVE well educated, hard-working, naive victims with good jobs and lots of money in the bank.
I know you believe you're the GODDAMN BATMAN, but even you might, at some point, get fooled by someone. You've apparently already been fooled by this bullshit libertarianism, so it's just a matter of time. And when that happens - I hope the legal system and social apparatus protect you and prevent you from suffering permanent damage. Because that's what it's there for, and even jackasses deserve protection from honest mistakes and victimization by others.
Score and snap it. No dust, no worries.
Cutting fiberglass PCB is a common task, there is plenty of detailed information on the web on how to do it. In a short way, you must keep the board wet (by continualy throwing water at it), and should use a respiratory filter.
You shouldn't care too much about what kind of saw you'll use, unless you don't want to destroy it in the process.
Rethinking email
I'm assuming you're using some sort of power saw, but is it even necessary? They sell paper-cutters for PCB that doesn't seem to kick up any residue into the air or at least I've experienced no problems with it.
That said, one thing to be aware of that could be different is that I'm typically cutting boards with no over-coat epoxy or similar in place yet, whereas I assume you're cutting up boards that have components/et cetera on it.
Why are you doing this? Why are you saving mother-boards? You know that hobbiest fabrication is pretty low impact, and I suspect you'll be able to get at what you want more precisely and directly.
You can cut shapes, punch holes, whatever...
Rick B.
I use G-10 to make circuit boards at home and the best way I have found to cut it is with good metal shears. This does not produce dust or particles in the air. You can even cut curves with a wide arc using an aircraft type left or right cut shear or use lots of short straight cuts to cut a pretty tight outside curve. I have also used a "Nibbling Tool" to nibble away small chunks. Most of what I have done is on single or two sided boards and mother boards are multilayer, but it should work. You could seal the cut edges with either some epoxy or perhaps a "super glue".
. . . .
No, we don't want to be in a world where idiots die.
. .
Actually from all of us that have been stuck on the I-405 on a daily basis, or those of us that have watched our elected officials do things such as "Health Care Reform" without ever addressing the single obvious core issue... (Cost!)
So actually yes, we really do want to cull the pool a fair bit. The system of this planet worked quite well by letting the lesser organisms fall. Frankly I think our city's would be a nicer place if they would release a few tigers every once in a while. People who have no awareness of anything outside of themselves are a blight on the planet. (Yes I mean you! The idiot who can't look away from your smartphone as you are texting while walking in front of cars...) A little awareness combined with fear for one's self helps make a person a better person.
http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?topic=62462.0
You want a wet tile saw like these:
http://www.harborfreight.com/4-inch-tile-saw-with-wet-tray-3733.html
http://www.harborfreight.com/7-inch-portable-wet-cutting-tile-saw-40315.html
They're cheap and safe. They have a water reservoir and a diamond blade. The blade stays wet during cutting so none of that nasty fiberglass gets into the air. Ceramic tiles must be cut this way otherwise they give off ceramic dust which causes silicosis.
"Liechtenstein is the world's largest producer of sausage casings, potassium storage units, and false teeth."
OK no evidence for that.
My first thought was "if you don't know then don't do it unless you want to die young.". Realistically you have to as others have said treat it as very dangerous unless you know just because you know that circuit boards and potentially components are made with chemicals and metals. Although they do get made into mouse mats so can't (you'd think) be that toxic.
Use the Water-Jet-Cutter and filter the water after use.
Bacteria, Plants and Fungus may help to clean the water.
A nice, sealed pond with bacterial gravel will help to manage the dirt.
"No, we don't want to be in a world where idiots die."
Speak for yourself, Hazel. I have been made aware, during the past five decades, that there really are just to damned many people on this earth. And, I blame it on people like you. FFS, let the idiots kill themselves off! We could return to zero population growth, or maybe even a little negative population growth. The last thing we need on this earth, are more idiots! We can't even start enough bogus wars to kill them off with! Please, think about what you're saying, before you post.
BTW - I generally despise the Chinese - or at least the Chinese government. But, they do have one thing going that I *almost* admire. Negative population growth is a good thing, when the population has far outstripped the capacity of the land to support said population. I don't think that any other population in history has done anything like this, short of going to war. Sadly, war usually only causes a temporary reduction in population. As soon as the hostilities end, everyone gets busy fornicating with everyone in sight!
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
As the owner / primary crafter of girlgeekboutique.com, where we make jewelry and accessories out of circuit boards, I have tried various methods. I'll start with the one I currently use.
1) Ginormous guillotine paper cutter bought cheap off craig's list: cheapest, safest, fastest method I have found -- but with some significant limitations
Upsides:
* Cheap, easy to find, easy to use
* Chops straight through the boards with (almost) no fine particulates escaping into the air. Very little to clean up.
* If you can hold the board steady (with pressure and sometimes with the aid of high-friction material between the circuit board and guillotine surface to help prevent slipping), you can cut very nice straight lines
Downsides:
* You can only cut thin circuit boards -- well, unless you have a newer, sharper, larger guillotine than I have and/or are much stronger
* You can only cut straight lines
I also use a sander (in front of a powerful window fan that takes the particles out of the house) with fine grit paper to smooth the edges.
NOTE: I use thin, component / solder-free circuit boards found at an electronics surplus store. Dealing with cutting lead solder and components, I have decided, is just a bad idea in many ways. I will sometimes pry the components off and make them into jewelry separately (see http://girlgeekboutique.com/ for examples), but I do not use circuit boards with solder on them. It is sad to see them go to waste (though, of course, you should always recycle them!), but there are simply too many toxic materials in them for me to feel comfortable cutting them up and giving / selling them to others. Most other crafters feel the same way, and use circuit boards without components.
Having said that, some other crafters are more hardcore and *do* use recycled circuit boards (with, at least, the large components removed), solder and all:
2) Scroll saw
Upsides (second hand):
* One of my fellow Etsy sellers uses one with "metal/plastic blades" and she creates very unique circuit board jewelry, sometimes in curved shapes like hearts (Clone Hardware)
Downsides:
* She goes through many blades just for one circuit board
* I tried one and, though I was probably not using the "right" kind of blade, it kept catching on every raised contact or bit of solder, making it impossible to smoothly run the board through
* All of the above warnings about toxic particulates being thrown into the air
I have also had several people suggest dremmels to me, but those also solve none of the problems mentioned above.
3) High powered sander
Upsides:
* With the right grit sizes and sander power, you can sand straight through a circuit board relatively quickly and then swap to a finer grit to take care of details and smooth off the edges
Downsides:
* EVERYTHING is being turned into dust. I only tried this outside on a windy day with a mask on, but it was still just a very bad idea -- even with solderless circuit boards.
I appreciate the ideas in the above posts and plan to try some of them. I am particularly interested in the ring saw. Does anyone have actual experience cutting circuit boards with these?
Sincerely,
"Captain Girl Geek" of girlgeekboutique.com
(a long-time slashdotter who just created a new account because she hated her old username >^-^ )
Is Doctor Bob a subluxation on humanity's spine?
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
Please, think about what you're saying, before you post.
I'm thinking whether you should live or die by your own reasoning.
If you're a bigger idiot than me does it mean you should die?
....such as is used to cut ceramic tile. Otherwise you're going to have a major problem with airborne powdered glass fibers, and a potential threat of silicosis.
Regards;
How can one even be so stupid to try that?
What is next? A sticker on all motherboards: don't try to recycle this at home???
That posting is so sad ....
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Printed circuit boards contain other chemicals besides fiberglass. Brominated fire retardants, for example, are pretty toxic, and old boards may contain versions of the chemical that are worse than what's currently allowed. This is another argument for cutting it under water; you don't want the cut to heat up and release neurotoxic gases.
As much of a shock to you as this may be, many of us arrive at our own conclusions without ever having read Rand's works. But I understand, you disagree but have little ability to articulate your position. So you must resort to identifying me with someone easily demagogued. I bet you wonder why you are unable to persuade anyone who doesn't already agree with you...
See here's the part you fail to understand. If an idiot causes his own death and harms no one else, that's a benefit for everyone else. That doesn't require one person to dominate another. Financial scams are similar in that it takes such a tiny amount of sense to completely avoid them.
The same thing is true for a modern citizen who lives under a system where it is illegal to practice medicine without a license, where one's health and well-being is far too important to take foolish chances with, where you can see right there in black-and-white text that this phony "medical advice" is coming from a completely unverifiable Anonymous Coward who presents no valid/credible medical credentials of any kind. Anyone who takes medical advice from such a situation is begging for trouble. Begging, beseeching, pleading, on his hands and knees for trouble to arrive. Who am I (or you) to tell them they don't have the right to do that? Why should I be saddened when someone so egregiously invites trouble and then, shockingly enough, receives trouble?
A "degree of support" means you teach a man how to fish so he may feed himself. If necessary you give him the tackle. Then only his own laziness would stop him. That's not the way we do things. The way we do things encourages multigenerational dependency on someone else to handle basic things for you. We actually have adult people who cannot understand why texting while driving is poor decision-making. We actually have literate adults who require warning labels to inform them that really bad things will happen if they ingest bug spray. We actually have adult people who can't understand that hot coffee is hot.
A world of balance is a world in which you don't burden your neighbor with your own inadequacies and your own refusal to grow up into a responsible adult who understands cause and effect. A world of balance is one in which people might receive a hand up but no one receives a hand out. Emotional fucks like you keep going from one extreme to the other. With you it's either "throw them to the wolves" or it's "micromanage their lives from cradle to grave". You don't even realize this is the fallacy of the excluded middle -- it's faulty reasoning. So naturally you have to portray me as a Rand-bot because that's really all you got, that's really the highest level of debate you know. How cheap. How unbecoming. This is your best? Pathetic.
As much of a shock to you as this may be, many of us arrive at our own conclusions without ever having read Rand's works.
Your rhetoric makes it clear you have read Rand's works, once enjoyed them wholly, then have tempered your views slightly as maturity hit. You're even trotting out the "fallacy of the excluded middle" term often used in discussing her work but which has nothing to do with anything I said. I'm advocating balance, i.e. precisely not engaging a false dichotomy.
But you've been let down by your matriarch and one base part of you is angry that you can't apply Rand in the most harsh sense:
If an idiot causes his own death and harms no one else, that's a benefit for everyone else.
This sentence, the crux of your whole argument, is horrendous sophistry. It seems like you certainly need to read philosophy other than Rand. You might then understand the difference between a carefully presented argument with well-defined words and babble indistinguishable from troll.
(1) How do I classify an "idiot"? Is it even relevant, or was that word inserted in there for appeal to emotion? Are you using the term to imply that the death of a smart guy taking a single dumb risk is bad - in which case, since you're surely not so stupid as to think that clever people aren't capable of occasionally making daft decisions, don't you need to look out for geniuses who make silly mistakes?
(2) When does a man cause his own death? Suicide? Accident? Ignorance? Risk-taking? And to what extent are each of these activities allowed before the great AC judges the death as deserved? Put another way, a mewling nerd on the Internet mocks those who take risks (by choice, ignorance through no fault of their own, desperation, etc.) - would he survive in the stagnant, undeveloped world which would exist if everyone were as cowardly as he?
(3) How often does one man's death actually harm "no one else"? Who judges the harm caused on an individual and collective level? Is it you, again?
(4) "..., that's a benefit for everyone else." Why? If A and B and C then Z. Even if you manage to fill out the part of the argument which assumes that A and B and C are simultaneously true even remotely often, you've made this huge leap to suggesting that the death of certain people benefits everyone.
I have this rule of thumb for any philosophy I come across: if, at any stage, it identifies some chosen group of people and argues that the chosen people will be better off if the non-chosen are dead, then the philosophy is evil.
The deliciously tragic irony here is that you've identified the non-chosen (in your own antisocial world where one stranger's fate has no impact on others) as something like "stupid people with no friends". Bravo, sir, bravo.
A man who thinks that "the sufficiently lame should suffer" always conveniently categorises themselves as insufficiently lame.
Of course, there's someone somewhere else with a similar philosophy who categorises himself as insufficiently lame but pigeonholes the first man as sufficiently lame. Which is fortunate, really, because if all the little fascists didn't waste their time arguing with each other over who was worthy of life, they might consolidate power more often than they currently do.
Runaway1956: population control through reducing the birth rate is entirely different from population control through increasing the death rate. Only the latter has a somewhat final and drastic effect on real individual humans (before one even begins to consider the knock-on effect on society), and only the most sociopathic utilitarian can honestly confuse the two with some argument that the end justifies the means. Yes, we make too many babies, but we can only solve that by making life more bearable for the living - then we take away the retreat to a dream about making a better life for one's descendants or, worse, the need to use children as support in old age. Religion's old lie about a world of suffering rewarded in the afterlife is just a conceptual offshoot of living for one's children.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_jet_cutter nuff said
Never saw up a mother board. Instead, saw down, over or under!
Was there an EMP that caused everyone with a sub 100 IQ decide that EVERY verb MUST have a preposition? Or was it a loss of funding to schools that caused them to stop teaching English?
Utilizing the synergization of benchmark e-solutions to pre-workaround action items!
um, try doing it outside? just sayin'
The correct type of respirator, and taking into consideration the material you are working with are not particularly complicated. Myself, no way I'd want to contaminate the interior of my home with ultra fine fiberglass and epoxy dust. I solder in my lab inside, but I have ventilation ducting directly outside. Most solvents I work with, they get used in the garage, not inside, where I sleep and eat. Sawdust is far less dangerous and fine than fiberglass epoxy dust, and I don't even allow any of that indoors.
If you have access to a shear and notcher you can do most anything without creating dust. Otherwise use a hand saw of some sort and wear a resperator. Not the paper, over the nose and mouth, but one of those designed for spray painting.
I am a hobbyist woodworker, and would like to think that we are perhaps some of the leading authorities on dealing with containment of dust and other airborne particulates. Sanding wood can generate particulates smaller than 1 micron and that stuff is very bad for your lungs.
With that being said, there is a whole industry devoted to dust collection for woodworkers and I think you would do well to investigate it. It sounds like a respirator is what you need. You can get units that will filter down to 1 micron off the shelf or by mail order from Amazon, Woodcraft, Rockler, etc for well under $100. If you're using a standard painters mask, you're probably breathing in a lot more of the dust than you realize. They don't filter to anywhere near 1 micron, and the poor fit to your face is letting unfiltered air go right around the mask into your lungs.
I would recommend doing your actual cutting outdoors or in as well a ventilated space as possible, and then going elsewhere for a while after you finish to let the dust settle. It can take several hours for airborne particulates to fall out of suspension, especially if they're really tiny.
If you need to remain in the area, there are other methods of containing the dust. Google "dust collector" to get an idea as to the amount of options out there. A shopvac is definitely the wrong solution for what you're trying to do, they don't filter small enough particles or have enough CFMs for adequate dust collection. Festool makes dust vacs that have HEPA filters and are actually designed for this sort of thing. They're pricey, but dirt cheap when compared to the cost of new lungs.
One of my tenants is company that does this professionally and they cut hundreds of circuit boards a day (all ROHS compliant I belive). Believe it or not their ventilation requirements are not very extensive. Of course they have a CNC machine, high end pneumatics, etc. but even with the "Professional Setup" a good shop vac with a good filter setup close to the area that you are cutting is all that you need. It is best to have the actual shop vac unit (the blowing end) pointing away from your work area. I would invest in a decent filter (not the cheap generic ones) and make sure to keep it clean. The point is to suck up the particles before they even have a chance to enter the air. Their setup uses a high end CNC machine with the drill bits having a much higher RPM than anything that you are going to use (i.e. it makes more fine particles) and the shop vac is all that they use. I am sure if you would like more details they would be more than happy to help. Their website is: http://www.motherboardgifts.com/
Perhaps you should start with reading comprehension then move into argument formation.
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