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Bullet Train Derails In China

Posted by timothy on from the house-of-cards dept.

chrb writes "Xinhua is reporting that a Chinese bullet train has derailed, resulting in two of the train's coaches falling off a bridge. This comes only a few months after officials at the Railways Ministry expressed concerns that builders had ignored safety standards in the quest to build faster trains in record time — a claim that was subsequently retracted."

34 of 184 comments (clear)

  1. Collision by robertl234 · · Score: 5, Informative

    According to reports, a lightning strike caused the first train to lose power and was subsuequently rear-ended by a second train.

    1. Re:Collision by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      You and your fancy "facts". Go away, we are trying to get a good rant going on the hubris of Chinese industrialization.

    2. Re:Collision by Aboroth · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Presumably, there should have been some kind of safety system in place to deal with a relatively common natural phenomenon called lightning. Or, just the amazingly easy to predict general problem of power loss. But clearly, you are correct, the Chinese can do no wrong here.

    3. Re:Collision by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      The standard system for the US and, as far as I know for most of the world, is called "block signals". These red/amber/green lights show if a train is in the section of track ahead and has been used for over a hundred years. Have the designers in China abandoned this?

    4. Re:Collision by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Most high speed rail isn't suing this system, because at high speeds it's not sufficient.
      On the other hand, this was a 'normal' train, traveling at speeds where block signals are normally in use.
      With a power failure at night, a failed block signal might not be detectable though.
      In France the TGVs carry explosives (fireworks, basically) to put on the rails one kilometer ahead of a failed train, to warn the oncoming train of a problem. This requires getting out of the train and one kilometer ahead of it in time though.

    5. Re:Collision by Dachannien · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Actually, it happened on Washington, DC's Metro system two years ago. A problem with a train proximity sensing system resulted in a failure to engage automatic braking on one train when it approached another train farther ahead that had broken down. In that case, there was evidence that the operator, shortly before her death, had attempted to stop her train manually, but didn't have enough advance warning to stop in time. Eight other people were killed, and in response, WMATA ordered operators to run their trains in manual mode at all times.

    6. Re:Collision by WrongSizeGlass · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Have the designers in China abandoned this?

      No, they just haven't copied it yet.

    7. Re:Collision by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Texting should be banned for the good of humanity

      The same could be said about wives and girlfriends.

    8. Re:Collision by phobos512 · · Score: 2

      I know this is /. so you obviously didn't RTFA, but the articles pointed out that these were older D-series trains that only travel around 100 mph (the articles said they top out just shy of 100 mph).

    9. Re:Collision by Chep · · Score: 5, Informative

      you can't actually read the signals, when the train travels > 250km/h. Even in 1980, designers of the TGV (270 then, 320-350km/h now) knew this, and the signalling is done using what is called cab-signal, which puts the display within the cabin.

      Some slower but WAY busier lines also need to get away with the old block system, in order to reduce the spacing. In Paris, the two primary suburban lines (RER A and B) use what is called 'permissive' spacing, (SACEM on A, KVBP or KCVP on B), in order to reduce space between trains -- SACEM can space trains under 5 meters apart under stressed conditions.

      But the key point of these advanced signalling systems is that the train-spacing software MUST be perfect. Not just "bug-free, we tested and deployed and ITIL'd the thing to death" but "mathematically proven bug-free". And even that doesn't cut it. Read up on how the SACEM hardware works, for instance. Or on the "Methode B" used to design the SACEM and the SAET (the latter of which powers automatic lines such as M14 and now M1 in Paris. SAET can safely take even a 110 year-old manually driven train within the robotic shuttle traffic, and get everyone safe there).

      Back to China, perhaps the strike broke some communication line, making the position of the stopped train 'unknown'. But if that happened, someone much worse must have happened as well.

      Perhaps, by cutting corners everywhere, they've also cut on the provably bug-free programming which one MUST use to build the train-spacing software. THAT, if that happened, is criminal.

      Perhaps they've cut corners on brakes. Or whatever.

      Hopefully for them, that's a fixable bug....

    10. Re:Collision by milkmage · · Score: 2

      at least it matches the weather report
      http://www.weathercity.com/cn/33/shuangyu/?u=i

    11. Re:Collision by Chep · · Score: 3, Interesting
      You can simply put several signal posts in a row, and read the red/amber/green streak that goes by the cabin.


      well, you can. But the cab-signal system also gives you an advantage, as you have a continuous

      A missed Square (double-red, absolute stop, whatever it is rendered as in your neck of woods) should trigger an immediate emergency stop of all trains in the vicinity, cab-signal or not, anyway.

      <blockquote><blockquote>Some slower but WAY busier lines also need to get away with the old block system, in order to reduce the spacing.</blockquote> <p>Ah, the good old "throw safety out of the window to increase profits" way of managing things.</p></blockquote>
      Well, no. The system removes (actually <b>disables</b> unless a non-equipped or faulty train comes) the static, side-mounted block system; <b>replacing</b> it with a dynamic, moving block system. Each train knows where the previous train is, its own speed (obviously) and the speed of the previous. And of course, the brake distances.

      SACEM (and the like) computes the safe stopping distance, and can cause everything from slowing down all the way to hitting the brakes, in order to keep the safe distance held.

      The "5 meters" (actually, I saw a couple times even closer) obviously can happen only when one train is stopped (in station) and the next train approaches. Nowadays, they've tuned the system with more space, not because it was particularly unsafe, but because it was occasionally freaking out passengers... The damn thing has been working, cramming LOTS of commuter trains daily for 20 years. It's working fine, thank you very much :)

      Now about joining the trains, it might work, until you want to do things such as stop in station or drive fast between the stations...
      Obviously, when trains run their 'normal' 70-80km/h, the software spaces them several hundreds of meters apart. AT LEAST (dunno what the emergency braking distance from 80km/h for a MS61 or MI2N is, but the commercial deceleration is enforced).
    12. Re:Collision by TeknoHog · · Score: 2

      You can simply put several signal posts in a row, and read the red/amber/green/blue streak that goes by the cabin.

      While you're going at ludicrous speeds, don't forget Doppler.

      --
      Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
  2. Compare to Japan's Bullet Train by vinng86 · · Score: 5, Informative

    During the Shinkansen's 45-year, nearly 7 billion-passenger history, there have been no passenger fatalities due to derailments or collisions,[13] despite frequent earthquakes and typhoons.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinkansen#Safety_record

    1. Re:Compare to Japan's Bullet Train by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Contrary to the South Park episode, Japan and China are in fact two different countries

  3. Lightning involved by MagikSlinger · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I don't know if it is necessarily corner cutting, but one would have thought lightning protection would have been one of the obvious things they would have engineered. From the articles, the lightning strike disabled the train and the train behind slammed into it. Also, if a train is stalled on the track, one would think there would be someway of knowing; either through telemetry or the driver radioing "Help! My train's stuck!". So if so, why didn't the other train stop? Lots of questions... I wonder if we will ever truly learn the answers or will this become another of China's "let's sweep it under the carpet" moments?

    --
    The bitter lessons of a veteran coder: http://bitterprogrammer.blogspot.com
    1. Re:Lightning involved by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It was proposed (by Siemens Signals gmbh) that a modified TVM430 system be used in China. This is what is used on the more modern TGV lines in France. It was rejected by the Chinese Railways as being too expensive so they came up with their own.
      The TVM430 uses a moving block system. This means that this accident could never have happened. This system leaves at least one complete signal section between trains. The sections are also long enough for a SPAD (signal passed at danger) that will cause an application of the brakes to AUTOMATICALLY happen to stop the train from well in excess of the normal line speed before it would slam into the back of the train that was stopped on the line.

      If my experience with the Chinese Bullet train lines is anything to go by, the phrase 'held together by duck tape' seems very apt.
      The trains themeselves might be good but the PW (Permanent Way) is very sub standard. The last time I travelled on one the ride quality remined me of the line from Euston to Rugby in the 1980's. Think bucking bronco.

      This was an accident waiting to happen.

      Anon, ex staffer with Westinghouse/Siemens Signal Systems (UK) but still employed in the Railway Business.

         

    2. Re:Lightning involved by Too+Much+Noise · · Score: 2

      Automated control system and/or safety checks failure, most likely - at that speed manual braking is useless (by the time you have visual on the obstacle it's too late to brake). The automated control system should have detected that one train was no longer moving or no longer in contact and should have slowed down/halted all other trains on the same track approaching the area.

  4. Design difference with TGV by Midnight+Thunder · · Score: 5, Interesting

    My cynical nature seems to be not surprised about "that builders had ignored safety standards", in China.

    One thing that should be mentioned is looking at the photos of the Chinese bullet train, is that the design did not inspire itself on one of the key advantages of the French TGV. That advantage being that the bogies are between the carriages and not under each carriage. Apparently the French designed it that way because it reduces the scope of damage due to derailment. The TGV has derailed, but it always derails in a straight line.

    ref: Nova: Looking down the track at very fast trains

    --
    Jumpstart the tartan drive.
    1. Re:Design difference with TGV by MORB · · Score: 5, Interesting

      And it works incredibly well. The TGV had several high speed derailment that all caused only minor injuries.

      It includes the world's fastest derailment at 294kph (182mph) where only one person was slightly injured.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TGV_accidents

  5. 11 Dead. Missing from summary by quantumphaze · · Score: 2

    At least 11 people have died and 89 people injured

    You would think this important information would be in the summary to give perspective on the disaster.

    --
    Unicode in Slashdot
    1. Re:11 Dead. Missing from summary by isorox · · Score: 3, Informative

      At least 11 people have died and 89 people injured

      You would think this important information would be in the summary to give perspective on the disaster.

      The number of deaths isn't what makes it interesting to Slashdot -- the Oslo shooting + bombing (rightly) didn't get reported here. This derailment leads to a discussion of safety standards of high-tech systems, especially in emerging countries, and how technology could have prevented or caused the crash, hence it's newsworthiness.

  6. Not a "bullet" train by mrsam · · Score: 3, Informative

    From TFA:

    "D" trains are the first generation of bullet trains in China, with an average speed of just short of 100mph (160km/h).

    Feh. Amtrak, and even some commuter trains in the Northeast, routinely exceed 110-125mph.

    1. Re:Not a "bullet" train by isorox · · Score: 4, Informative

      From TFA:

      "D" trains are the first generation of bullet trains in China, with an average speed of just short of 100mph (160km/h).

      Feh. Amtrak, and even some commuter trains in the Northeast, routinely exceed 110-125mph.

      Commuter trains in the UK tend to go upto 110mph, but average nearer 50-60. Eurostar from London to Paris peaks at 186mph (186.1 according to the iphone gps), but only averages 136mph.

      The Acela Express might peak at 150, but it averages 70mph.

  7. Collision and *then* derailment. by Arakageeta · · Score: 2

    The reports currently are that the train cars detailed because of a collision, not because they were simply going too fast and took a sharp turn on faulty rails. Can you really expect cars to remain on the tracks after a collision?

  8. subsequently "retracted" ?! by fche · · Score: 4, Insightful

    No, a "retraction" means taking back, by the original commentators. In this case, some other official merely denied the claims of the whistleblower.

  9. or some basic railway safety like a working signal by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 2

    or some basic railway safety like a working signal system that stops a train on the same track from hitting one in front of it with a block size that gives it time to slow down and or stop before it even gets to the block that the train in front of it is in. Also do they have a treat a black signal as a red one?

  10. Re:Not a surprise by Ihmhi · · Score: 2

    Yes, quite odd that two similar stories pop up like that. We've got a horrible trainwreck that will result in a media circus, and a train crashed as well.

    --
    Random Thoughts From A Diseased Mind (Not For Dummies)
  11. Signaling system by Hollysys by Animats · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Hollysys claims to be the main supplier of signalling and train protection equipment for China's high speed rail lines. There are two separate systems - classic track circuits, and a data link between units at the head and tail of each train to a train control center. Either is normally able to prevent collisions. However, in a power failure, the data link system would probably not be functioning. The track circuit system should continue to work on battery power, or, if that fails, indicate STOP.

    Track circuit failures resulting in a false proceed signal are rare, but have occurred. The WMATA transit crash in Washington, D.C. was due to a track circuit failure. The US Federal Railroad Administration keeps records of all reported false proceed signals. There have been two recorded events in 10 years of false proceed indications due to lightning damage.

  12. Bad summary by Artem+S.+Tashkinov · · Score: 2

    I don't like the summary - from the article: A Chinese high-speed train derailed Saturday when it was hit by another express, state media said, throwing two carriages off a viaduct and killing at least 16 people.

    Still I don't understand all the details of the situation.

    1. Re:Bad summary by chrb · · Score: 2, Informative

      I don't like the summary - from the article: A Chinese high-speed train derailed Saturday when it was hit by another express, state media said, throwing two carriages off a viaduct and killing at least 16 people.

      When I wrote the summary a few hours ago the information regarding a lightning strike and collision was not available.

  13. Re:or some basic railway safety like a working sig by canadian_right · · Score: 2

    Or the lightning is the new official story because they don't want to admit the train derailed due to shoddy construction caused by rampant corruption.

    Need some confirmation of what happened.

    --
    Anarchists never rule
  14. In news nobody wrote or cared about ... by tp1024 · · Score: 2

    ... in addition to 10 people dieing in a train, another 200-300 died in other traffic accidents in China on the same day. If you ask me, I'd take the Chinese bullet train. (China has 1.3bn people and 7.6 out of 100.000 die each year in traffic accidents.)

  15. It's *NOT* a bullet train by GPLHost-Thomas · · Score: 2

    Again, journalists have it wrong. The one and only bullet train that is in production in China, is in Shanghai. This train is made out of German technology, can reach 430 km, and links the city (Long Yang Lu station) center to the Pudong airport. Then you have "Gao Tie", the Chinese TGV. Such trains would be marked as "G" then a number. "Dong Chi" would be D, and they are all but bullet trains. How come the journalist wrote "bullet trains" for these "Dong Chi" is a mystery!!!