Guide To Building a Cable That Improves iOS Exploits

mask.of.sanity writes "An Aussie network engineer has published a guide to building a serial cable connector that allows access to a secret kernel debugger hidden within Apple iOS. The debugger was a dormant iOS feature carried over from Apple OS, and seems to serves no function other than to allow hackers to build better exploits. The cable needs an external power source and a jailbroken device to access the debugger." We've mentioned Pollock's serial adapter kit before, modulo the kernel debugging abilities.

Comments

Another non-exploit

[Pieroxy]

So this is again one of these "exploits" that Epple took care of but the jailbreaking community didn't. I guess everyone is going to blame Apple again.

Yet another way to build better exploits: decompile the kernel. I guess Apple should prevent that as well or they'll be found guilty.

Re:Another non-exploit

[Anonymous Coward]

If consumer access was unintended but a way to get to it was found, I would call it an exploit either way.

Re:Another non-exploit

[arbiter1]

it it was an exploit that was taken care of them it would be a exploit now so it wasn't taken care of to start with so they are to blame.

Re:Another non-exploit

[arbiter1]

wouldn't be an exploit now. this site needs the option to edit your posts

Re:Another non-exploit

[V!NCENT]

Where did you read exploit? It says that the kernel debugger can serve as a tool for exploiters.

Leave your stupid fanboyism at the door next time, please...

Re:Another non-exploit

[hairyfeet]

Besides it isn't like this just magically opened a way to exploit an OS that had never ever been exploited in the past. Ya see, this is what I don't get about the whole fanboyism thing, the divorce from reality. News Flash: ALL OPERATING SYSTEMS CAN BE EXPLOITED!!!

A wise person once said the only way to make a truly unhackable computer was to lock it in a safe and drop it in a hole and that is the truth. No matter how smart the guys that write the OS think they are there is somebody smarter out there and if they want to dedicate the time and energy they WILL find a way in, I don't care if it is cell, desktop, or server, I don't care if it is made by Apple, MSFT, or some Linux group. All it takes is will and knowledge and time and the knowledge and time parts get shorter all the time thanks to this little thing we called the Internet allowing those that want to hack to have plenty of places to learn.

As for TFA any security person will tell you that if you have access to the hardware you are 90% of the way there. I doubt Apple really cares much about this since it seems like to big of a PITA for the average Apple customer. Most folks aren't gonna be cooking up special cables and cracking the case just to jailbreak the thing.

But this does illustrate something I don't get about Apple, which is why they don't just do like Sony did with OtherOS before they screwed the pooch and take away the incentive to hack it in the first place? Just have a relatively simple way to call up a menu that says "By clicking here you give up your warranty in return for jailbreaking the device. Once chosen this CANNOT BE UNDONE" and then let the customer decide if they want to break it or not?

Re:Another non-exploit

[Anonymous Coward]

this site needs the option to edit your posts

Totally. Nobody would abuse that. No way.

Re:Another non-exploit

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

ALL OPERATING SYSTEMS CAN BE EXPLOITED!!!

You're a moron.

Insecurity isn't an inevitability.

Re:Another non-exploit

[MichaelSmith]

If you can hold the computer in your hand, security has little to do with the operating system.

Re:Another non-exploit

[Pieroxy]

While I agree with you from a theoretical standpoint, the complexity of modern operating systems more or less guarantees that nobody with a finite amount of time will ever be able to secure one 100%.

Re:Another non-exploit

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

Okay, then, CPU?

I think that it's absurd to have the opinion that nothing is unhackable. I think it's feasible to think that there may come a day when security gets tight enough that a computing system for consumer use could become exploit-proof. Look at the PS3. It wasn't until that USB boot exploit was discovered was the thing broken open.

Yes, it's a bit of special pleading, but, most attack vectors were covered. Sony did learn from the PSP. It's conceivable that there could be a day when the only way to hack a machine to run arbitrary code is to intercept the CPU itself, and even that's theoretically beatable.

Re:Another non-exploit

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Insecurity isn't an inevitability.

As long as there is a human at the keyboard, yes, it is.

Re:Another non-exploit

[Arlet]

Other sites seem to work fine with an edit feature.

Re:Another non-exploit

[Anonymous Coward]

ALL OPERATING SYSTEMS CAN BE EXPLOITED!!!

You're a moron.

Insecurity isn't an inevitability.

If you think your statement is true, you're the moron. Unless its a completely closed system, security is never perfect.

Re:Another non-exploit

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Those sites dont reward certain types of comments.

Re:Another non-exploit

[neokushan]

To be fair, there's no reason why /. couldn't implement an edit feature and keep the edit history available as well. Hell, even just append the post with the edited post and show the original as scored out text just above it, or hidden under a "show original" button that's quite obvious. That way nobody can abuse it to make it look like they said something else without making themselves look like an idiot. And if you're really concerned about the "reward" system, have the system ignore any post that's been edited for any reason, which would also encourage people not to abuse it and those that do won't get any benefit for it.

Of course, that would probably require some effort from the slashdot web monkeys.

Re:Another non-exploit

[d3ac0n]

What reward? Karma? Pfft. That's so easy to get it's laughable.

Besides: Editing your comment wouldn't have to undo a moderation. So If you make a really bad comment and get modded down to -1 for it, changing the comment won't necessarily improve your score in time to change the moderation.

Also, why can't a time limit be put on it? Say, 4 hours. So if you fire off a hasty flame post, but then calm down later and realize how stupid you sound, you can go back a bit later and change it. I think that's a great idea. Prevents stupid flame posts from staying up without moderators having to waste points on it, and raises the overall dialog level.

The only really "exploitable" thing I could see was if someone put up a really good post, got a +5 for it, and then edited it to be a spam post or a link to a virus or something along those lines. But since the high-marked posters are fairly well known, I don't see that as being a huge issue.

Re:Another non-exploit

[Cyberax]

And you're wrong - there are provably secure operating systems.

Then there are just plain scarily secure operating systems: QNX and (to lesser extent) VxWorks. QNX in particular has just about 2000 lines of kernel-level code which is highly audited, tested and probably damn near bug-free.

Similar approaches are already used in hypervisors. It's certainly possible to make a provably secure hypervisor, for example.

Re:Another non-exploit

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

The reward isn't 'karma', it's the word Insightful next to people's posts. That alone counts for most of the noise on this site.

Your example of an exploit is a rather important one.

Re:Another non-exploit

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Mod points are handed to the ppl who comment a lot. These same people don't read the articles and half the time don't even read the summaries.

You either need to give up the moderation system or have properly trained mods.

Re:Another non-exploit

[Antique Geekmeister]

> If you can hold the computer in your hand, security has little to do with the operating system.

That belief is, of course, completely mistaken and is the source of endless exploits inside wireless equipped LAN's and offices that "trust the people they work with". The threshold is deliberately left so low by both engineers and policy managers with this belief, as a matter of personal convenience, that rootkits and exploits run rampant inside "closed" networks and devices that entirely ignore local security as a matter of policy.

The very low security threshold of such access is ludicrous, and should _never_ have been permitted.

Re:Another non-exploit

[__aaqvdr516]

Instead of spouting venom, learn some self control. There is no need to edit posts.

If you need to edit it, you probably didn't need to write it.

If you're editing it because you misspelled something, take that as a sign that you should proofread before submitting. (guilty as charged)

Re:Another non-exploit

[PopeRatzo]

Also, why can't a time limit be put on it? Say, 4 hours.

Doesn't have to be 4 hours. I'd be happy with 1 minute. There is some defect in my brain that causes errors to appear upon posting that did not show up in Preview.

Re:Another non-exploit

[CProgrammer98]

"I think it's feasible to think that there may come a day when security gets tight enough"

Umm the intertubes is a couple of decades old now and we're still no nearer to this. Your own example counteracts your argument

So... call me, I'll be waiting... (oh and there's another small problem - you can't prove that a system is unexploitable)

Re:Another non-exploit

[CProgrammer98]

>And you're wrong - there are provably secure operating systems.

Citation please?

Re:Another non-exploit

[Seyedkevin]

Unless its a completely closed system, security is never perfect.

I'm baffled as to why you think a closed system is somehow more secure. Security through obscurity is by no means "perfect".

On a separate note, I think the security of systems only really matter within the scope of possible attack. For example, it's not an 'exploit' if you can crash the system with a script if the system doesn't have another exploit that would allow an attacker to run the script. Clearly, a defense against such exploit should be in place to better harden the system but it's only an exploit if there are other exploits.

Nearly all systems should not be capable of a remote exploit and, is in that sense, secure. It is only when you start starting services like an SSH server or a SQL server where the possibility for remote exploits becomes evident. Fortunately, mobile devices don't have these kinds of services and any exploit depends on the user executing malicious code his/her self, intentionally or not.

Additionally, having hardware access is usually regarded as having a system completely under your own control. This makes mobiles a different ball game since you can't practically lock the phone behind steel walls. If hardware hacks requires software exploits which cannot be done by a malicious attacker, I don't see how that's a problem. This is only a problem to those who voluntarily use software exploits, open up their system, and allows attacker to have physical access to it.

In a nutshell, calling this cable hack an exploit is like saying that it's an exploit if a root user can run "rm -rf /".

Re:Another non-exploit

[Cyberax]

Here's a link to implementation: http://ertos.nicta.com.au/research/l4.verified/

You can also check: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyotos

Re:Another non-exploit

[Pieroxy]

probably damn near bug-free.

The two words I've highlighted pretty much proves my point.

Re:Another non-exploit

[Cyberax]

Well, there _are_ provably secure OSes (seL4, Coyotos).

QNX is not formally proven to be secure, but in practice it is - I'm not aware of any vulnerabilities in its microkernel.

Re:Another non-exploit

[Pieroxy]

The problem being, a machine is more than an OS. Some NICs are insecure and one can hack into their microchips. That's a good place to do man in the middle attacks. Other exploits don't need root privilege to do their deeds. They'll target the running apps, not the kernel.

All in all, I must say that I don't know how you can prove an OS is secure (and I doubt it is an accurate description of security). You can prove there is a vulnerability by finding it. How do you prove there's no vulnerability ?

Re:Another non-exploit

[Cyberax]

Imagine that your phone only runs signed software. And the hypervisor continuously checks that all executable code in RAM is signed.

Now what? You can exploit an application, but it will be immediately detected by the hypervisor. Embedded firmware might dodge it, but it won't be able to do much - all the traffic that goes in/out of NIC is already untrusted.

It'll take a couple of generations of hardware to achieve this. But ultimately it WILL be done.

Re:Another non-exploit

[Pieroxy]

It reminds me of the discussions on slashdot in the early days of virtualization (early 2000s). It was like "Of course it's secure: even if the VM is compromized, the virus cannot spread to the host." Except it can spread to the host. Because VMWare is not bulletproof either, and you can exploit the VGA drivers, USB drivers, etc. Especially if you're root on the VM.

The hypervizor thing will be the same IMO. You'll be able to target the encryption, the signing, whatever is exposed to the outside can be exploited. A TCP stack is also something pretty hard to secure.

The secure machine is the machine not connected to the outside world. Then again, it can be exploited if you have access to the machine physically.

Something easy to secure absolutely: An alarm clock. A microwave. Something basic. Not that I believe my microwave or alarm clock to be secure. What I'm saying is that such dumb down systems should be able to be secured absolutely.

Re:Another non-exploit

[s73v3r]

I think he meant closed as in, no way to get in or out. So you couldn't actually do anything with it.

Re:Another non-exploit

[hairyfeet]

And you're a total fucktard, see how that works? Now name this mythical "unhackable" system pal. cells? Hacked. Consoles? Hacked. All the various popular OSes? Hacked. If you would have bothered to read my post instead of getting all butthurt you'd have read the same thing security guys have been proving for years.

1.-There is no such thing as an unhackable system, all it takes is time, will, and knowledge, and the time can be cut down by increasing knowledge of the system which can be gained from this wonderful tool we call the Internet.

2.-if you have physical access to the box? you are already 90% of the way there. That is because with physical access one can hack right into the board itself, by using a flash drive or as in TFA tying directly into the board itself.

So before you go slinging insults why don't you put up or shut up, huh? Lets see that unhackable system pal. because I got news for ya it doesn't exist and any moron who watches some of the webcasts from events like black hat would know why, it is because there are a hell of a lot of low level coders out there that live, eat, and breathe hacking. You point to a system and say "unhackable"? They are gonna do whatever it takes to break in, and they will sparky, they will.

Re:Another non-exploit

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

Lets see that unhackable system pal

Sure, try to hack a NAND gate.

Short of feeding it a crapload of volts and amps, there's not much you can do to really feed it some kind of input that'll fuzz it's output.

Re:Another non-exploit

[hairyfeet]

Riiiight, because the average person says 'hey, let me have one of them NANDgates, along with fries and a coke". GIVE ME A BREAK! WTF good is a single NAND gate? Show me a system in actual popular usage that is "unhackable" and THEN you'll have a point, otherwise you're just trolling.

Re:Another non-exploit

[RockDoctor]

the option to edit your posts

One of the beta tests of the current interface (you can tell this is a joke already, can't you!), had an accurately-labelled "Submit" button. It read
"Press here once you've checked your URLs, your spelling, and grammar and you're really sure that you want your public persona to be irrevocably associated with what you've written."
But for some obscure reason, the UI people thought that might just possibly be intimidatingly accurate.

Personally, I've always read the word "Submit" as meaning "that's it ; it's gone ; you're committed".

Wouldn't it be wonderful if they included a button that allowed you to check the visual form of your posting without actually permanently putting it on public record above your public persona. They could call it "Preview". It would be almost like having the ability to view your post and "edit" it again before posting it permanently.

I realised - that last line implies that you could "post" something and it not be permanent. Oh, what hilarity.

Re:Another non-exploit

[V!NCENT]

Please explain to me how you got rid of the human error factor.

The thing is: if it's accesable then it's accesable. Yes you can make a computer secure by letting it being able to do nothing, but then it's useless. If you let people acces it through the internet, someone else can too. The problem is that computers are digital. No matter what authentification system is in place, the system is binary. Everybody can copy that code and use it themselves, provided that they are smarter than the creator.

Chicken and Egg?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait... so in order to use the cable to find exploits, you need a jailbroken device. But in order to jailbreak your device, you need to first find an exploit.

* Yes, I do know that there are other ways to find exploits...

Re:Chicken and Egg?

[mrmeval]

You would think by now that there would have been schematics ala the old Howard W. Sams hack of disassembling it, desoldering the parts and running continuity tests after first getting as many oscope waveforms and voltages as possible.

when i think back to years gone by

[arbiter1]

I remember the days when apple play commercials claiming their OS don't get virus's, malware, etc. Now we see these story's weekly proving that all the load of bull apple claimed about their OS was nothing more them a lot of S

Re:when i think back to years gone by

[Anonymous Coward]

there are no viruses for iOS unless you're stupid enough to modify the OS by jailbreaking it.

show me some malware, please. I'd like to see it.

[citation needed]

Re:when i think back to years gone by

[The123king]

The opinion that Jailbreaking is "stupid" is exactly that, an opinion. There are many reasons to jailbreak, and in reality, you're only more vulnerable than unjailbroken iDevices to viruses if you don't change your default SSH passwords[1]. If you don't do that, then it's you who's stupid. [1]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8373739.stm

Re:when i think back to years gone by

[qxcv]

That's like saying "Windows Vista doesn't get viruses if you use a Microsoft Certified Firewall Solution, Microsoft Certified Anti-Virus Solution, only install Microsoft Certified software and don't open files from outside your own network in addition to exercising due diligence and having your computer serviced by a Microsoft Approved Technician weekly."

Also: jailbreaking uses the same mechanism as viruses do to get onto your iPhone. A virus could well jailbreak your iPhone and install itself without you even knowing given an appropriate exploit (such as the Adobe Reader exploit from a while back).

Re:when i think back to years gone by

[Anonymous Coward]

played
didn't
viruses
stories
than

Re:when i think back to years gone by

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a big fan of jailbreaking, or in general rooting your own devices, but you're either wrong or being very disingenuous on one point:

you're only more vulnerable than unjailbroken iDevices to viruses if you don't change your default SSH passwords

Jailbreaking removes the signed executable checking at the OS level. This is how iBooks checked for jailbroken devices--it tried to run an improperly signed executable and warns the user if it succeeds (and, then, won't open your books.)

Citation: http://socialapples.com/blog/2011/02/15/apple-cripples-ibooks-for-jailbreakers/

By jailbreaking, you significantly increase your threat surface. Although it won't likely affect the initial vector of compromise, it makes it easier to do nasty things once the malware can run any code on the device.

Re:when i think back to years gone by

[itsdapead]

I remember the days when apple play commercials claiming their OS don't get virus's, malware, etc.

That was in the old days when major Windows applications required you to run as administrator, when mail messages could silently install software and an unpatched XP machine connected to the internet would be infected before you had a chance to download the patches. Win 7 has done a lot to reduce that, which may by why Apple dropped the ads...

An iOS exploit that requires physical access to the machine, a custom cable and only works on a machine which has already been jailbroken (i.e. deliberately cracked by the legitimate user) isn't exactly in the same league as the sort of remote pwnage seen on PCs in the Bad Old Days.

Re:when i think back to years gone by

[drinkypoo]

It was particularly hilarious given the virus-fest that was Classic MacOS. No memory protection until what, late OS 8? And nothing good for anything until 9. I had to run two antivirals on Classic MacOS... gatekeeper and disinfectant. Such snazzy names.

Re:when i think back to years gone by

[s73v3r]

That's like saying "Windows Vista doesn't get viruses if you use a Microsoft Certified Firewall Solution, Microsoft Certified Anti-Virus Solution, only install Microsoft Certified software and don't open files from outside your own network in addition to exercising due diligence and having your computer serviced by a Microsoft Approved Technician weekly."

No, not even close. Quit with the FUD.

Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[roman_mir]

It's amazing that Apple and Jobs in it are so shortsighted that they don't provide official tools that people want. Of-course they have contracts with AT&T and who knows what else, that's most likely why they don't want to let people use these devices as general purpose computers, so that normal apps could be executed (and then you can use Skype or whatever to go around long distance phone charges obviously). But still, this is just so screwed up that a company would not see that it is in its best interest to sell the phone with the maximum possible features in it. OK, have an official Apple utility to so called "jail break" the thing and enter another lucrative market of various adapters and gadgets that could be then used together with the phone.

These devices are general purpose computers with wireless access and an odd phone application installed on them. Let the people use them the way they want to.

Of-course the unwillingness of Apple to allow people to use their own freaking product the way they want to provides HUGE market for all the other types of phones (Android) to fill that gap. It's just the short-sightedness of Apple is amazing in this instance.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[dakameleon]

Yes, because the alternative is... no, wait, Android devices don't let you access root so easily either. Hang on, I'll come up with something...

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

I'm sure having record year over year profits is so short sighted. :) Even over a year after the iPhone 4 came out, it's still outselling individual phones from the likes of HTC and Samsung.

People want products they can use now, not products they might be able to get to work with some hacking.

I'm amazed geeks DO NOT GET IT.

At all.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[roman_mir]

To be honest, I don't actually know. I don't own any fancy device like that, my phone is a very very very simple tiny nokia, I disabled every feature on it that I could and removed the camera. I made an assumption that there is a market for more open phones and I believe, (maybe incorrectly), that Android based phones are more open than iPhones. I could be wrong, but that would amaze me actually. They are not more open?

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[Haedrian]

Even over a year after the iPhone 4 came out, it's still outselling individual phones from the likes of HTC and Samsung.

Its not such a good comparison. Here's why. You use a smartphone to run certain programs on it (or to look good or whatever).

If you want an Android phone, you have tons of choice. Most of them will run the same software, and so you just choose your price range or whatever.

If you want an iOS phone you basically either buy second hand, or buy the current iPhone.

So the iPhone isn't better than 'individual' phones, its just the only choice you have if you want iOS

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[roman_mir]

Well, my phone is a very simple nokia, all features are off, camera is removed. So from my POV if I wanted to get a device similar to iPhone or some Android based thing it wouldn't be because it's a phone, it would be because it's a tiny computer.

However saying that because Apple has excellent profits now with the phones locked doesn't at all mean that they couldn't have even more profits if they allowed an option (maybe for some extra money) to those who wanted this option to remove any sort of protection against USER using the device the way they wanted to, and then to sell various gadgets and attachments for these phones. Why would that make them less profit rather than more? Doesn't seem logical.

Again, just because they have large profits now, doesn't mean they couldn't have even more profits by luring in more customers who want more out of their hand held computers.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[Graff]

I made an assumption that there is a market for more open phones and I believe, (maybe incorrectly), that Android based phones are more open than iPhones. I could be wrong, but that would amaze me actually. They are not more open?

They are as open as each individual manufacturer wants them to be - which, in many cases, is pretty damn closed up.

Sure there are ways to open them up, just like you can open up the iPhone, but it's not a simple process on a lot of them.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[bjourne]

No, people want status symbols. Overpriced phones from Apple are perfect status symbols for people with to much money to spend. We geeks get it 100%, it is just that we despise it because it disguists us.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[roman_mir]

To continue my line of thinking - I wouldn't at all be surprised if at some point it came out that Apple is actively involved in providing ability to quickly jail break the iPhones and other devices that Apple sells on their own to the community through proxy.

Would you be surprised to find out that they did that? To me it seems that the only logical explanation as to why Apple is even locking the phones at all would be 2 fold:
1. Some government regulation.
2. Some private contract with a phone company, like AT&T to prevent Internet enabled phones from cutting into long distance call profits.

So in that case, if Apple wanted to increase its market share while still technically be bound by the above reasons to not allow the phones to be completely open, it would make sense for them to provide ability to jail break those phones by proxy and not openly on their own.

What we know about open and free software likely applies to all other aspects of economy. The more open a platform is, the more users it will have given all other things being equal. I am sure Apple does want a piece of that after market as well.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[Rennt]

They are as open as each individual manufacturer wants them to be - which, in many cases, is pretty damn closed up.

Not anymore. HTC put out an official statement back in May (issued by the CEO himself) that they will not be locking the bootloaders on any new devices. Samsung responded in April with a similar (albeit unofficial) statement.

Motorola are the only manufacturer who seem to be stuck in the "don't give the customer what they want" rut, but they haven't exactly been setting the Android world on fire since the original Droid.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[Anonymous Coward]

something like this? http://www.electronista.com/articles/11/05/26/htc.ceo.promises.android.bootloaders.clear/

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[Richard_at_work]

What is it that "we geeks" get?

I had both an iPhone and an iPhone 3G, before getting pissed off with iOS 4 on the 3G enough to decide to try out the Android side of the story.

I acquired a new HTC Desire in February, and merrily set about using it as my main phone. Today is the 8th of August, so I have been using my HTC for around 6 months as my main phone - and the conclusion I have come to is that I absolutely hate it.

I have to dig around in subscreens to get to the apps I want - on the iPhone I just scroll left or right on the home screen, but on Android I only have six homescreen slots for apps, the other home screens are taken up with applets, mail and other shite, so I have to open the apps screen specifically, and then dig around in there.

The back button on the HTC is unbelievably broken - it entirely depends on what you were doing before as to what action it has. Does it return you to the home screen or to the previous page in the app? It depends! For example, I get a text message while my phone is locked - I unlock the phone and the message is displayed. I now want to refer to another message I have received previously, and since I am in the SMS app (as that is what is loaded), I click the back button to get to the message list. And I get dumped to the phones home screen instead. If I open the SMS app myself, the back button works as expected! Lots of examples such as that.

The Android Market Place is a terribly poor user experience, I utterly hate using it - its hard to find apps, its hard to search, its hard to preview apps. The AppStore just seems so much better put together, especially when browsing from the device itself!

I have had far far more interface issues with the HTC than I did with either of my iPhones - for example, the other day I was on the phone to a colleague, and the call dropped - but the HTC wouldn't let me hang up! It was sat there on the call screen, with the "End Call" button active but nothing on the line - and each time I clicked "End Call" it would briefly blank everything and then the call screen would reappear. This has happened to me several times.

The screen locking is poor - I cant count the numerous number of times I have taken my HTC out of my pocket to find my penis or keys had randomly dialled someone, or started to write an email. And yes, I am sure the phone was locked (prime example of this happened to me earlier today - I ended a call, locked the phone, put the phone in my pocket - 5 minutes later, I take the phone out to make another call and the phone is unlocked and halfway through a gibberish email).

The HTCs touch sensitivity seems to wildly vary depending on what you are doing, and buttons can be hard to actually get a press confirmed on - plus the onscreen keypad isn't anywhere near as good as the iOS one.

Thats just some of the issues I, as a "geek", have with my Android phone - I desperately want to go back to an iPhone...

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[mr_lizard13]

Having two thirds of the entire mobile phone industry's profits despite selling just 2 phones would seem to suggest Apple knows what's in its best interests.

Of course that doesnt stop the waves of people willing to offer them free advice on how they should be doing this properly.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[intheshelter]

And yet it seems to be working very well for them. They are still selling iPhones as fast as they can make them and they don't have a new report every other day (literally) about how apps in their app store are spying/stealing/etc. (see Android market). I'd say they have taken a different, but overall a fairly smart approach and you might be the one who is short sighted. How is the phone YOU invented selling?

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[Rennt]

If there was a secret jail break button combo or something (up, up, down, down, left, ...) that unlocked your phone, I'd say you might be on to something - but the methods used are usually security exploits that can also be used by remote attackers to compromise your phone - I really don't think Apple are doing it on purpose. Security is just hard.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[intheshelter]

I'm sure you had a point to your post, but it must have got lost in translation. You went to a lot of length to tell him the iPhone isn't better than "individual" phones, but I don't believe he said anything about that? It seems like you were arguing with yourself, and based on how poorly the post was written I'd say you lost. . . .

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[roman_mir]

Having great profits with the closed platform doesn't mean that profits would be any less with a platform that was open.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[bhtooefr]

The alternative is Windows Mobile 6.5.

Which doesn't support any permissions other than root.

Enjoy!

Oh, you don't like that? Well, I'm sure there's an old Centro running Palm OS 5.4.9 lying around...

(Actually, on a serious note, HPalm hands out the password necessary to get the USB debug interface going, and from there you can easily get root and install whatever you want. Also, if you get a Nexus phone, you can get root without hacking the thing, using an adb, IIRC, and you get an OS that actually has software available - but some software will refuse to run on a rooted device.)

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[tepples]

Android devices don't let you access root so easily either

Android-powered devices don't require root access just to install non-Market applications.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[roman_mir]

No, I don't believe that in order to have plausible deniability you would build in an easy to access way to remove security. You would provide a way to do whatever via a method that is complex enough that it cannot be done by a normal user but still it would be technically simple to do for somebody with specific knowledge.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[Anonymous Coward]

Really? Android pretty much proves that it does. Android devices have nearly twice the market share of iOS yet make less than 1/3 of all profits worldwide in smartphone sales.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[Wingsy]

"If you want an Android phone, you have tons of choice. Most of them will run the same software, and so you just choose your price range or whatever."

It's the whatever that non-geeks (and many geeks) don't care for, and they have no clue what whatever is anyway. Probably the reason why customer satisfaction is off the charts for iPhones, and not so stellar for Android. When you buy an Android phone you may get x, y or z (yes, they're all Android, but futzed with in different ways by different carriers). When you buy an iPhone you always get an iPhone. Most people like that.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[roman_mir]

But I am not talking about Android, I am talking about iPhone, which has its following. For some reason most people replying here think that Apple wouldn't make the profits they make today if their platforms were more open.

I believe they are mistaken, there is no reason why Apple would make less money if they provided a more open platform. What if you had to pay extra 50 bucks to Applet to jail break the phone to get the 'privilege' to buy gadgets built by Apple for the aftermarket?

How would that reduce Apple's profits rather than increasing them?

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[roman_mir]

Whatever I build as part of my work is very well received. I don't build phones, if that's what you are asking, but that's not what you are asking.

iPhones maybe the best thing since sliced bread, but how would that change at all if Apple sold a way to jail-break their devices for some extra cash and then sold more after-market gadgets and apps for the phone?

The only problem for Apple in that space is likely government regulations and private contracts with phone companies.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[Anonymous Coward]

I have to dig around in subscreens to get to the apps I want - on the iPhone I just scroll left or right on the home screen, but on Android I only have six homescreen slots for apps, the other home screens are taken up with applets, mail and other shite, so I have to open the apps screen specifically, and then dig around in there.

I've got a HTC Desire Z and it's got HTC Sense which does what you want, sliding between different home screens left and right and even have different 'sets' of home screens as part of an overall phone theme.

The back button on the HTC is unbelievably broken - it entirely depends on what you were doing before as to what action it has. Does it return you to the home screen or to the previous page in the app? It depends! For example, I get a text message while my phone is locked - I unlock the phone and the message is displayed. I now want to refer to another message I have received previously, and since I am in the SMS app (as that is what is loaded), I click the back button to get to the message list. And I get dumped to the phones home screen instead. If I open the SMS app myself, the back button works as expected! Lots of examples such as that.

Ugh, I hate this as well, it always stings me on the web browser as it goes back a page instead of exiting which is what I'm use to with other applications. I understand why it does it but for a context sensitive button the context isn't always in tune with muscle memory.

The Android Market Place is a terribly poor user experience, I utterly hate using it - its hard to find apps, its hard to search, its hard to preview apps. The AppStore just seems so much better put together, especially when browsing from the device itself!

I just wish it had more categories, I haven't used Apple's App Store so what do they do better?

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[hexapodium]

HTC are actually going to continue to ship phones with locked bootloaders, and release an unlocking tool on the support website for them: presumably it's a warranty and support thing, and possibly a security one as well: it sounds pretty convoluted, but then, so is the current root exploit - su binary - engineering bootloader - S-OFF process to get custom firmware on there anyway. I'd prefer them to just have a button in the settings menu (like the Nexus One had for root), but the extra layers of "here be dragons" will probably stop people from doing it without realising the implications of trusting a firmware dev - if you could reflash phones straight-up, I suspect we'd see a bunch of custom Kesha ROMs loaded with trojans.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[mwvdlee]

iPhones maybe the best thing since sliced bread, but how would that change at all if Apple sold a way to jail-break their devices for some extra cash and then sold more after-market gadgets and apps for the phone?

It would change because now everybody would be able to create and add features to the iPhone with Apple only receiving some money for the cable instead of receiving a shitload more when everybody is required to buy the next iPhone with those exact same new features. Apple would lose their ability to sell software-only upgrades.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[mr_lizard13]

Isn't Android open?

Manufacturers selling Android phones don't collectively have two thirds of the profits.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[Overzeetop]

I'm sure (no, I know) that there is a subset that wants the status symbol, whether its the iFoo for the metrosexual, or the Nexus Foo for the geek crowd - it's the same thing. Most of us just want a device that will do what we need to function, and do it with a minimum of fussing. Apple provides mediocre products that fill 95% of the average users needs and require near zero setup and maintenance - QED.

In the horrible parlance of automotive analogies, I don't need a vehicle that can do 0-60 in under 6 seconds, nor do 0.95g on a skid pad. Those things are nice, and there will be times I wish I had them, but most of the time I just want to get my kid to school safely, or carry groceries back from the store. And unless I'm refilling the wiper fluid, I never want to open the hood.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[Haedrian]

He used the assertion that it outsells "individual" phones as proof that apple got their strategy right. I disputed the his proof and not the conclusion.

If you notice his second sentence was "People want" which is a stepping stone based on how they're purchasing iPhones more than any other individual phone.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[roman_mir]

So by your logic just because Android sells worse than iPhone it means that if iPhone was more open it would sell less?

Is this /. or some other place, where comments are generally not expected to follow normal rules of logic?

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[mwvdlee]

I must admit have ~67% of market profits is rather impressive considering they only have ~16% of the market (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smartphone).
It means they make about 168x more profit per phone compared to the others.
Wow!

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[roman_mir]

So would that decrease the overall market for iPhones then or would it increase it and would not Apple be able to sell more iPhones if more features were available, more people catered to that market, software or not? Would Apple also not gain ability to sell more devices to connect to their phone?

Is it your contention that iPhones would generate less profit for Apple in that case?

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[Billly Gates]

What I find more rediculous is how many geeks on slashdot who hate DRM censorship and bashed Windows Vista because of this go out and buy all the latest Iphones.

I am not saying this to be a troll here as I get modded down often due to my name, but I do scratch my head on this from people who only use Linux and use swear by GNU love their flashy IPhones.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[Billly Gates]

My Samsung Galaxy S has root access. What's the problem?

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[roman_mir]

I don't know why you are replying to me with that though. I never used Vista, I don't even know how. Once I had to help somebody with it, I couldn't even figure out how to view files, it was ultimately confusing, I gave about 10 seconds into the experience.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[Billly Gates]

This is percisely why I chose an Andriod over an IPhone. In my opinion the Iphone is a sleeky and maybe even a supperior product. However, it is locked and tied down to Apple and you can forget about developing software for it without a mac. Itunes for Windows sucks.

Andriod was simply more open. Some of them even are rooted at the store like my mine. If you buy them under an agreement more than likely they will give you a crippled phone as you do not own it and they want you stuck in a payment plan.

Also I do not have to pay for development tools with Andriod either. XCode is no longer free so if I wanted to develop an IPhone app I would have to pay well over $1,000 for a mac, then $99 for an XCode account, and who knows what else for the SDK. With Andriod Java is free, eclipse is free (that is what the Andriod SDK tools use), and I can run on MacOSX, Windows, or Linux. Hmm gee I am going to pick Android.

Even though my phone is rooted I will say that DRM is a service running on my phone so they are not totally free I guess but I assume this is a requirement from Verizon and the media companies.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[Anonymous Coward]

My experience exactly. To add to the pain try to breaking your phone and having it replaced only to find you cannot do a full restore and have it back to its previous state. A third party app is required to do most of the restore, but even then you have to setup your home screen etc again.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[Billly Gates]

6.5 is old news and obsolete like Symbian.

Windows Mobile 7 is out and Mango 7.5 is pre-release and about to hit market in a few weeks. According to sites like www.amplicate.com the platform has very good ratings. The gui is very well thoughout and it is identical to Windows 8 and syncs with your desktop much better than an Andriod (I do not know about Iphones).

You own the phone and there are other permissions too. Windows Mobile 6.5 and earlier frankly sucked. Microsoft has to prove itself after a decade of poor WindowsCE products. I think they finally nailed it and glad they started over fresh. Newer apps need to be rewritten but the mobile IE 9 has the same html5test.com score as the desktop version which is very interesting. I guess you wont have bugs like slashdot rendering poorly because it thinks my Andriod 2.1 phone is Chrome.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[mwvdlee]

Whether or not it's a smart business decission I doubt, but Apple seems to believe that any freedom given to the rest of the world means less profit for them.
You, opening up the platform might enable Apple to sell more devices. OTOH, third parties would be able to sell more devices as well and, more importantly, Apple would be unable to sell the iPhone 17 which has the new "connect this specific device" feature that customers want. Apple want to keep everything closed so they can sell a slightly less closed version to you in the future. They're artificially creating feature in the future by blocking functionality now. Apple isn't alone in this type of business model.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[Wovel]

What's truly amazing is that you would make such a wild proclomatiom without any basis in reality...

Skype? Really? This is our example? Skype and other VoIP programs have run on iOS for years. In 4.0 Apple added special hooks to the OS just for VoIP calls to run I'm the background so you can use those free calls while doing other stuff. Clearly preventing Skype is what this is all about.

Did you even bother to try and have an informed opinion?

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[Wovel]

And IOs is the choice for App developers because those Android phones don't in fact all run the same software.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[Sancho]

The back button was a great idea that had horrible consequences, in part because of some underlying Android fundamentals, and in part because the implementation of the back button's behavior is developer-determined.

Apple's App store prominently features high-quality apps on the front page. If the app isn't on the front page, it's not much easier to find than on Android, except that there's a lot more cruft on Android. Generally, if I search for anything on Android, I'll get tons of wallpaper or other apps which have nothing to do with my search terms and are only cluttering up the results.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[Wovel]

You have never owned an iPone. You are simply spouting BS you have read on Internet forums. Stopping referring to yourself as a geek. You have neither the technical nor analytical ability to claim that title.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[roman_mir]

This thread is getting too long if it takes me posting the same thin over and over to get the point across.

Obviously iPhones are locked due to government regulations and/or private contracts with phone companies.

Apple could make more money by selling a way to open the phones and by selling more devices/apps into the aftermarket.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[Wovel]

Why do people keep referring to these long distance profit paranoia when Skypemand countless other VOIP programs have been in the Appmstore for years and Apple went outofmtheir way to make them work better in iOS 4.

Really would not kill you morons to do a 5 second google search. Of course, that would shatter your paranoid fantasy world.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[Wovel]

It does offer a glimpse into the reality behind Android market share. 2 of the 4 largest manufacturers, at least for US users, lost money last quarter.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[UnknowingFool]

Apple could make more money by selling a way to open the phones and by selling more devices/apps into the aftermarket.

I would guess legal liability would be a reason. By giving users an option to unlock the security, it can be taken that they are condoning any actions that may arise. If something goes wrong, some users even if they have to click a bunch of "Yes" screens would sue regardless. Also remember you are not the only person that can guess access to your phone. If say an ex girlfriend, wife, etc unlocks it and plants spyware to stalk you or plants child porn, etc, no Apple isn't responsible but since they provide a means to do it, they can be sued by you. Some companies allow users these options, Apple doesn't.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[Sancho]

Apple wants to control the experience of the end-user. It's that simple. They've learned that providing a great experience to most people is better than providing a good experience to everyone. There will be companies who do certain things better than you, and people who want those things to the exclusion of others. There will be people who don't want to buy your product because they don't like your style, or don't want other people to think that they've embraced your culture. Or they think that your products are too expensive. Or any number of things.

There's nothing wrong with providing a great experience to enough people to keep and grow your business. It keeps Apple rolling in the dough. It makes a bunch of people happy. The only people I see complaining are busybodies, people who want to look down on others for [insert reason], and people who realize that Apple makes excellent products but who aren't willing to give up either their sense of elitism or their ideology. Out of these groups, I can only really respect the last one. But that's okay. It's only the first group--the ones who want to tell me how I should spend my money--that bother me. The rest I just kinda feel sorry for.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[bjourne]

Nice read. Guess someone who likes HTC phones could offer some counter points to at least some of your issues. But you know as well as I do that none of the above is the reason why 99% of iphone consumers chose that phone. Of course, in reality most smart phones are underutilized status symbols. It's just that the iphone is the most egregious example since marketing, combined with the herd mentality of the status seekers has made it the dominant one.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[Anonymous Coward]

Then get a launcher that gives you a homescreen filled with all your apps shortcuts like the iPhone?! Or would that remove all those cool Widgets you love on your homescreen but don't mind not being able to have with an iPhone because apple decided you shouldn' t be able to.....

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[Sancho]

It's almost like the population of Slashdot users isn't completely homogeneous. Weird!

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[intheshelter]

I do wish they would unclench a bit and offer things like a mini-usb for ipad so you can back up docs and pull docs off a HD. It's very rare that I wish they had done anything differently, but I can see where some may want that flexibility and Android is the way to go for them (or jailbreak the iPhone). I don't think Apple needs to offer a higher priced version which is jailbreaked, you can do that for free and I know they have no interest in supporting a jailbroken device, there's too many pitfalls in that arena.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[Sancho]

I think it's more about perception. Apple wants their phones to be perceived as high quality. Phones which crash won't be perceived as high quality. Running outside of the sandbox means it's more likely that an app can cause the phone to crash. It means that it's more likely that an app can destroy your data.

Look at Windows. It's got a horrible reputation for stability. However, most BSOD I've seen have been the fault of 3rd party drivers. That's the risk you take giving ring 0 access to third-parties. You risk tarnishing your own reputation, even if the crashes and problems have nothing to do with your hardware or software.

There may be some contractual obligations with the phone companies, but they align with Apple's goals. I doubt government regulations have anything to do with it, because there are completely open phones on the market.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[Anonymous Coward]

As a real geek I'm sure you know you can change your Android OS to specifically fit your exact tastes and preferences. I'm a geek too. I have both iOS and Android and develop for both. There are some things I prefer about Android and some I prefer about iOS overall I prefer Android. But the real thing to note is there is choice and iOS is one of those. If you don't like the way the device you have works then stop bitching about it and fix it as geeks do either by altering the device you have or replacing it.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[everett]

They responded a month before the HTC statement?

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[mr_lizard13]

Firstly, all the numbers suggest Android handsets sell more - not less - than iOS. This isn't about marketshare though, it's about profit share. At least it is if you have shareholders, and want to generate a stack of cash which fuels further R&D, future products, low component costs etc.

But anyway...

The reality is Apple has a proven business model which is notable by it's aversion to being open. It's unashamedly a closed platform as far as obtaining software is concerned, and yet it has been an incredible success.

It's primary competitor is Android, which is unashamedly open. It has been successful in flooding the market, but has not created anywhere near the profitability for the handset makers.

Unless someone can cite an example of an open iOS-competitor which has been anything like as successful, I'm inclined to believe that it is the closed 'curated' approach of Apple's platform which has in large part led to it's success. Of course it *might* be just as successful if it were open, but that's just speculation. Right now though, the only other example of an open competitor shows that it's categorically not.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[Anonymous Coward]

At least you admit it's better for geeks than for average Joe. Personally I love that android exists, but the vitriol that exists on slashdot towards not only apple, but apple customers is hypocritical at best.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[Relayman]

Ironically, the reason you need to jailbreak your Android phone is that most don't ship with the latest software and no provision for upgrading. Not a problem with iOS.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[wolrahnaes]

no, wait, Android devices don't let you access root so easily either.

The Nexus One, Nexus S, Xoom, and Altrix among others beg to differ. By the end of the month the Sensation and Evo 3D will have joined the crowd.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[roman_mir]

doubt government regulations have anything to do with it, because there are completely open phones on the market.

- again, I don't know, I am not in the phone business, but the 'completely open phones' on the market, are these US phones? Because I believe there is some government regulation against allowing completely open phone platforms, which most likely have to do with being able to spy on the conversations, track phones and probably has something to do with emergency services as well as with radio output.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[boss_hog]

HTC put out an official statement back in May
Samsung responded in April

Do regular Samsung employees get to use this time machine, or just the execs? Because that would be SWEET :)

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[Sancho]

Well, for various definitions of "completely open", there are some in the US. the N900, for example, gets you as open as a Jailbroken iPhone. The Nexus One and Nexus S from Google do, too. Openmoko was an attempt to build a completely open source phone (hardware and software) but I believe patents got in the way of it being a truly useful device (nonetheless, you can buy them. They don't have 3G, unfortunately.)

I don't think you can modify the baseband of the phone--the part that would be subject to the most stringent FCC requirements. But you can't do that on any of them. So comparatively, they're all as open as a jailbroken iPhone.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[spire3661]

WebOs has built in root access, jsut type in "upupdowndownleftrightleftrightbastart" to unlock dev mode.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[spire3661]

It cracks me up when people balk at developing for iOS because they have to have a mac. Trying developing for any other console platform and see what it costs to get started.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[jo_ham]

Marketing only works to a point. If your product is garbage, you might get some early sales due to marketing, but eventually you will be found out and word of mouth will spread, along with reviews and so on.

What happens with the iPhone is that *people actually like using it*, and people who don't have one who use one (either a friend's phone or by trying one out in the store) like it too - it does what they want it to do, and is easy and intuitive to use.

For someone who wants a smartphone, just using an iPhone for 15 minutes or so is enough to demonstrate that it a really nice and easy device to use. They didn't sell 100 million of them purely because of "status seekers" - especially since what are you really trying to say here? That the iPhone is exclusive enough to be a status symbol? There are a hundred million of them out there! How "exclusive"!

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[TrancePhreak]

This is a big misconception. Unlike iOS where there have been plenty of API breaking changes, Android has been more stable. You can write for 1.6 and it will work on pretty much any device out there. Or if you want the new fancy UI stuff there is a package that will let it work on older devices provided by Google themselves.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[s73v3r]

Yeah, his statement is still correct. Granted, there are manufacturers saying that they are going to open the devices, but there are still others that won't.

And remember, from Motorola's point of view, YOU ARE NOT THE CUSTOMER. Verizon is the customer, and if Verizon wants locked phones, then they get locked phones.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[s73v3r]

However, it is locked and tied down to Apple and you can forget about developing software for it without a mac.

I really, really don't get the pissed-off-ness about this statement. Unless you think you should be able to develop for Windows Phone 7, Xbox 360, or DirectX without Windows.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[s73v3r]

6.5 is old news and obsolete like Symbian.

That was his point.

Windows Mobile 7 is out and Mango 7.5 is pre-release and about to hit market in a few weeks. According to sites like www.amplicate.com the platform has very good ratings. The gui is very well thoughout and it is identical to Windows 8 and syncs with your desktop much better than an Andriod (I do not know about Iphones).

If you're pissed off about needing a Mac to do iPhone development, then you should be equally pissed off about requiring Windows to do Windows Phone 7 development. Otherwise you're just an anti-Apple hypocrite.

You own the phone and there are other permissions too.

Nope. It's locked down just as much as the iPhone. Remember, you still need to pay the same $99 a year to put your own stuff on it.

I guess you wont have bugs like slashdot rendering poorly because it thinks my Andriod 2.1 phone is Chrome.

Probably because they share the same guts.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[s73v3r]

They do if you're on AT&T.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[s73v3r]

Its not such a good comparison.

It's not a good comparison to compare one manufacturer's product against another manufacturer's product?

So the iPhone isn't better than 'individual' phones, its just the only choice you have if you want iOS

Yeah, no. You're just trying to make excuses here. "People keep choosing iOS! But that doesn't mean that they don't like it more! They don't have a choice!"

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[s73v3r]

No, there hasn't, unless you're using undocumented Private APIs.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[s73v3r]

Why would that make them less profit rather than more?

Returns and support. It would cost them much more to handle the idiot users out there who think they're l33t enough to handle opening their phone, and then fuck it up. So they either have to support them, or deal with the bad publicity of "Apple not standing by their customers and product!"

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[s73v3r]

This is the most retarded, and geek-hipster statement I've ever read. Congratulations, you've made everyone realize that you think you're better than everyone else.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[s73v3r]

The back button on the HTC is unbelievably broken - it entirely depends on what you were doing before as to what action it has.

This isn't a problem with any phone manufacturer; this is a problem with whoever developed the app you're using at any given time. Many developers implement back button functionality poorly, or they give it some other weird functionality that isn't consistent with the App Developer Guidelines. Many of these apps also would have been rejected on iOS if they tried anything like this, and told to fuck off until they fixed it. Not necessarily a bad thing.

Does it return you to the home screen or to the previous page in the app? It depends! For example, I get a text message while my phone is locked - I unlock the phone and the message is displayed. I now want to refer to another message I have received previously, and since I am in the SMS app (as that is what is loaded), I click the back button to get to the message list. And I get dumped to the phones home screen instead. If I open the SMS app myself, the back button works as expected! Lots of examples such as that.

This actually has to do with they way things are structured in Android. The back button, when properly implemented, should pop the last Activity off the top of the Activity stack. In the case you described, opening from lock screen, the current Activity would be reading the SMS conversation with that contact. When you hit the Back button, the last Activity on the stack is the Home Screen. When you open the SMS app itself, the current Activity is the Message list. You click on a message, and now the Message list gets pushed to the top of the stack, and the Conversation view is the current activity. Pushing Back here would pop the Message list off the stack.

The Android Market Place is a terribly poor user experience, I utterly hate using it - its hard to find apps, its hard to search, its hard to preview apps. The AppStore just seems so much better put together, especially when browsing from the device itself!

No argument here, although Google is making strides to improve things. They are better than they were back in the 1.5 days.

The screen locking is poor - I cant count the numerous number of times I have taken my HTC out of my pocket to find my penis or keys had randomly dialled someone, or started to write an email.

You're lucky; at least your penis attempts to be productive. Mine just plays Angry Birds. And it's got a higher score than me.

I'm not trying to say anything like, "You're wrong!" or try to explain to you that one is better than the other. I just was trying to give an explanation as to why certain things behave the way they do. If that behavior isn't to your liking, then you should go back to a device that is.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[s73v3r]

Blah Blah, I'm jealous of smartphone owners, and I can't see why anyone would have a different opinion than me, so it must all be marketing. Never mind the fact that it actually is a good, solid product that was light years ahead of anything else on the market at the time it came out, especially in terms of usability. It's just marketing.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[s73v3r]

You're trying to dispute actual facts with "What ifs". That doesn't work. They know far better what they are doing than you do.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[s73v3r]

It wouldn't. They would not increase their profits, and they would have increased costs in support and returns.

And only like what, 10% of iOS users jailbreak? There's no way they would sell enough of those "gadgets" to break even on their costs. Especially not when they can have manufacturing partners do all of that for them, after they've been vetted by Apple. And the bonus is that they can sell them to the entire iPhone user base, not just a subset of jailbreakers.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[sac13]

So the iPhone isn't better than 'individual' phones, its just the only choice you have if you want iOS

What percentage of phone buyers do you think make the distinction between the hardware and what OS it runs and what percentage look at it as just one monolithic thing?

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[sjames]

The back button takes you BACK to where you were before. How hard is that to figure out?

If the stuff on the other screens is shite, then drag it to the trashcan.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[Haedrian]

Stop misquoting me.

If you look at the real figures :

"Google's Android platform has topped 40 percent market share in June up from 38 percent in May, said comScore. Apple's iOS remained No. 2 with 26.6 percent share." [Source: http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Mobile-and-Wireless/Android-Hits-40-Smartphone-Share-in-US-ComScore-426114/%5D

So Android phones sell more than iOS phones. However if you compare INDIVIDUAL phones, the iPhone will win because the Android platform is full of different competitors, while iOS isn't.

We're comparing ANDROID vs iOS. Any individual Android phone is lost in a sea of different choices - even if android is 40% market share.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[TrancePhreak]

Perhaps you ought to look at the difference in playing a movie from 3.x to 4.x, all using documented API's.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[kat_skan]

And remember, from Motorola's point of view, YOU ARE NOT THE CUSTOMER.

That's okay. They lock down their phones and let telcos force an unlimited amount of useless crap applications on you. They completely abandoned the original Droid after only a year and left it running a slapdash version of Android 2.2. From my point of view I'm not their customer either.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[Kurusawa]

I have to dig around in subscreens to get to the apps I want - on the iPhone I just scroll left or right on the home screen, but on Android I only have six homescreen slots for apps, the other home screens are taken up with applets, mail and other shite, so I have to open the apps screen specifically, and then dig around in there.

Did you not try the phone out before you've bought it? Because you would have known that HTC Sense is like that.. You could have removed the Mail Widgets if it was getting in your way and long press the app in the app drawer to create shortcuts. RTFM. I have a HTC Desire and I prefer all the apps in the drawer instead of it cluttering the home screen. If you liked the iPhone way of organising things.. Try a Samsung, they pretty much copied iPhone's interface and hence getting in a legal battle with Apple.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[Anonymous Coward]

Also I do not have to pay for development tools with Andriod either. XCode is no longer free

XCode has never been truly "free". It was always bundled with the OS. Still is, in fact. Technically you can sign up for a free developer account and download just about any version of XCode version 3.x or earlier, but without a Mac and MacOS X to run it on, it won't do you a hell of a lot of good.

The only new fee for XCode is that the latest update of XCode for Snow Leopard (10.6) costs $5 in the Mac App Store, instead of being a free download. If you don't need the latest version, the one on the Snow Leopard install DVD still works. But come on! For 5 freaking dollars, who cares?!

Also, if you buy Lion (10.7), it's a free download again.

so if I wanted to develop an IPhone app I would have to pay well over $1,000 for a mac,

You always had to buy a Mac, that being the only platform XCode runs on. That's not new. And no, it doesn't cost $1000+ to get into the game. Apple sells a perfectly usable $600 Mac Mini. The only thing you'd probably want more of for iOS development is memory, since it only comes with 2GB. It'll cost you about $75 or less to buy a pair of 4GB DDR3 SODIMMs to toss in it. 8GB, done.

then $99 for an XCode account,

You only have to pay $99 once you decide to start testing code on a real iOS device and/or deploy to the App Store. The free account and free (or $5) Xcode + SDK gives you access to the iOS Simulator, which lets you test your iOS apps on the Mac you're developing it on.

and who knows what else for the SDK.

My, it must be fun to be a whiny entitled git when you don't have to be constrained by facts. They don't charge a single penny extra for the iPhone SDK. If you have XCode, you have it or can get it.

With Andriod Java is free, eclipse is free (that is what the Andriod SDK tools use), and I can run on MacOSX, Windows, or Linux. Hmm gee I am going to pick Android.

Good luck with "saving" so much money when you have to buy a huge stable of Android devices running a variety of Android releases to test your code on, pal.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[gmhowell]

No, not quite. Android phones sell in greater numbers than iOS phones. If we compare devices running the OS, iOS sells a helluva lot more than Android.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[gmhowell]

You posted it over and over because it was dumb shit not worth refuting the first time you posted it and the 'logic' hasn't aged well since.

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[Anonymous Coward]

The alternative is Windows Mobile 6.5.

Which doesn't support any permissions other than root.

In Australia they would call that device rooted

Re:Having to jail break your own freaking phone

[mr_lizard13]

Correct; not counting the iPad/iPod touch though for the purpose of this discussion.

Find new holes for future exploits

[Anonymous Coward]

Steps are :
# circumvent Apple security features* (aka jailbreak) your iPhone using currently known security holes and gain root level access
# uses this tool to find new security holes and keep silent about them, hoping neither Apple nor hackers with malicious intend find them too
# when Apple plugs already found security holes, hope it didn't plug the ones you just found so you can repeat step 1 on the newly released (hopefully) more secure firmware

PS : I know that the App stores ALSO introduces censorship but for MOST users and applications, it first and foremost blocks buggy/malicious/infringing applications (this is such a troll bait that I preferred to be an anonymous coward).

Re:Find new holes for future exploits

[Vegemeister]

The App Store censors pornography. Most users are also consumers of pornography. Most users are thus affected by the censorship.

Q.E.D., bitch.

Re:Find new holes for future exploits

[Anonymous Coward]

Pornography is available on websites. The App Store has not control over what websites you visit. There for most users are not affected app stores censorship.

QED

Re:Find new holes for future exploits

[spire3661]

Same sentence could be used at Wal-mart or pretty much ANY place that sells magazines but not porn.... Not carrying a product is NOT censorship.

Re:Find new holes for future exploits

[TrancePhreak]

The difference is there's only 1 store available, so anything not let through for content reasons is censorship. Now I realize there is a web browser built in, and in some ways that gets around this. However, they limit the functionality of that too in some ways.

Re:Find new holes for future exploits

[spire3661]

DO you think before you post? There is only one store available on one platform. Apple is doing the SAME exact thing that Wal-Mart does, limiting what THEY sell in THEIR store. IF you want porn apps, go to a competitor. The part i really hate about the microsoft monopoly and its mis-perceptions is that now we think ANY successful computer company is now a 'monopoly' and that we need to control them.

Re:Find new holes for future exploits

[s73v3r]

You still have the internet available. And many, if not most websites realize that iOS has a significant chunk of web traffic, and that it can't do flash. So they are designing websites with that limitation in mind. Your point is moot.

Re:Find new holes for future exploits

[WorBlux]

So the hardware someone paid good money for is just an extension of the Apple store? If Apple doesn't want to sell such apps, then fine, but untill or unless there is an officially recognized way to the iphone/ipad (like the dev modes of some android phones) to run arbitrary third party code of my choosing, I won't consider buying either device.

Get out of bed the wrong side did we?

[Anonymous Coward]

Forget IOS and consider the after market stuff you can buy for your car.

- Big bore exhaust - Tick
- 30Kw Sound System - Tick
- 6.5ltr Supercharged engine - Tick

You do all of that and then the back axle falls apart. So you go to the manufacturer and claim on the warranty.
When theyhave finished laughing they will tell you to get lost. You made changes to the item that was sold. That affected the operation.
You are So Out Of Luck

Now return to the IOS issue.
You bought an IOS device. YOU modified it and now you get malware.
Just how is this Apple's problem?

Re:Get out of bed the wrong side did we?

[Cwix]

LMAO!!

Physical damage != Software damage.

That and I used to work at a dealership. They will pay for a lot of stuff under warranty. Even if the vehicle is no longer under warranty, if you make enough noise they will usually accommodate you somewhat, aftermarket parts or not. I saw people who had blown motors due to not changing the oil except every 30 thousand miles, get significant discounts because they made enough noise.

Re:Get out of bed the wrong side did we?

[spire3661]

I have but one word for you.......Stuxnet.

Re:Get out of bed the wrong side did we?

[Cwix]

Yes, and exactly what moving part on an iphone are you going to break with software?

Re:Get out of bed the wrong side did we?

[Yamioni]

The user. At least once Apple approves my mind control app that is.

Come to think of it, if they haven't approved it yet it must not be working. BLAST!

Yami

Debugging circuitry...

[Zapotek]

...exists in pretty much all phones (amongst other devices) although most would require some soldering on the PCBs, they are also used for forensic investigations -- or have completely separate circuits used just for forensics.
I don't remember much to be honest (like protocols etc) but I remember it from a forensics class I took.

The only surprising thing here is that they allow access to that circuitry via the normal device ports.

Re:Debugging circuitry...

[Graff]

The only surprising thing here is that they allow access to that circuitry via the normal device ports.

This is not debugging circuitry. This is a normal serial interface that has been known about for a good long time and is even talked about in Apple's documentation. You do need to have a breakout cable to access the serial lines but once you have that it works just like any other serial port does under Darwin.

Re:Debugging circuitry...

[gl4ss]

not on all phones. it's common to leave easy jtag out of devices sold to consumers and even to go to extra lengths to remove such access(or to build some security controls on it). for control, trusted computing and all that shit. because, you know, what good is a carrier lock you can get removed at china town? forensics guys don't do more than they do at ct.

leaving the connectors connected - or even just exposed - is just asking for hacking. Nintendo learned that stuff the hard way with wii..

Re:Debugging circuitry...

[TeknoHog]

The only surprising thing here is that they allow access to that circuitry via the normal device ports.

This is not debugging circuitry.

A lot of devices have TTL level serial ports hidden somewhere, so I would presume they are there for debugging purposes. Most computers haven't had serial ports in years, but new devices keep popping up with these TTL ports, so I guess the idea is to reserve it for professional uses. One nice thing about this discrepancy is, when all of your serial ports are TTL level, you don't need level converters.

Re:Debugging circuitry...

[reub2000]

My atrix allows debugging over the usb port. To enable it just check a box in the settings. Find some script written by a teenager in his mom's basement, and you have an unlocked phone.

Re:Debugging circuitry...

[drinkypoo]

Most serial ports these days will accept a 5V signal, so if it's actually TTL then it works. A crapload of small devices have ~3.3 volt serial ports on them for debugging (e.g. Dockstar) and you need to shift the levels before even a particularly tolerant serial port will work.

Re:Debugging circuitry...

[petermgreen]

Most serial ports these days will accept a 5V signal, so if it's actually TTL then it works.

IIRC most logic level serial is inverted compared to RS-232 (because most RS-232 level shifters are inverting) sometimes you can reconfigure the logic polarity but if your device doesn't allow that then you would need to add an inverter (at which point you may as well add a level shift chip and do it properly IMO).

Also note that while TTL ran off 5V the logic levels it used were closer to 3.3V cmos than to 5V cmos. Indeed it is pretty common to use 5V cmos devices with "TTL compatible inputs" to convert a signal from 3.3V logic to 5V logic.

Re:Debugging circuitry...

[Anonymous Coward]

ADB is application level debugging, fool.

Re:Debugging circuitry...

[drinkypoo]

Well, virtually anybody around here knows more about electronics than I do. I took a couple classes back in high school as a mere froshling but it didn't really stick. And I'm bad at math. I get some of the basic concepts but I can't rattle off anything but a vulgar resistor color code mnemonic. I did manage to get myself a nice little electrician's handbook at a yard sale for a quarter recently, though, so hopefully that will up my game ;)

Re:Debugging circuitry...

[TeknoHog]

Most serial ports these days will accept a 5V signal, so if it's actually TTL then it works.

IIRC most logic level serial is inverted compared to RS-232 (because most RS-232 level shifters are inverting) sometimes you can reconfigure the logic polarity but if your device doesn't allow that then you would need to add an inverter (at which point you may as well add a level shift chip and do it properly IMO).

True. I've done a fair amout of hacking on these, and the original article seemed rather ignorant. Of course, the way we speak of "voltage levels" is rather misleading, as there is a lot more to it.

To be precise, a mere logical inverter won't work, because RS232 uses both negative and positive levels. Logical high is negative, low is positive, and zero is undefined. This is for the data lines, the control lines (CTS/RTS) are the other way around.

Re:Debugging circuitry...

[petermgreen]

To be precise, a mere logical inverter won't work, because RS232 uses both negative and positive levels

I was under the impression that despite being non compliant it would generally work because most receivers have an input threshold above zero.

Old news

[Anonymous Coward]

What is it with /. these days?

Stefan Esser showed how to make an iDev serial cable in April at SyScan'11, and making the cable is trivial.

How does this improve iOS exploits?

[Anonymous Coward]

Does it create tighter, faster code or increase the success of exploits?

Pathetic

[Anonymous Coward]

Really, all those terrible efforts an Apple drone should do to get some very basic freedom on the devices he payed so much for.. how pathetic.

Schematics

[psergiu]

We want the schematics for the "hacker cable".
The schematic from the link in the TFA, ( http://www.ionetworks.com.au/files/serial_port.pdf ) using pins 12 & 13 of the dock connector is for a "accessory connection" cable and can be used from a jailbroken iPhone with /dev/tty.iap but the bootloader won't send anything on those pins at startup.

modulo?

[mwvdlee]

Perhaps I don't understand the context, but it appears to me TFA uses the word "modulo" where it means "minus".

Re:modulo?

[Tacvek]

To quote wikipedia:

In the mathematical community, the word modulo is often used informally. Generally, to say "A is the same as B modulo C" means, more-or-less, "A and B are the same except for differences accounted for or explained by C".

With that in mind, the summary is saying this article and and the previous one cover the same topic except for differences accounted for by "kernel debugging abilities".

In this case that does mean pretty much the same thing as the word minus would have, and the word minus would probably be have a better choice.

Re:modulo?

[Yamioni]

And in the Computer Science community, modulo is used formally to indicate the operation that gives you the remainder C when A is divided by B. Given that this is a mathematical operation, I find it silly that the mathematical community would use it to refer to "give or take" rather than a remainder operation. Not to say you're wrong, just that I find it silly. Damnable English language.

Yami

iOS developer program

[tepples]

However saying that because Apple has excellent profits now with the phones locked doesn't at all mean that they couldn't have even more profits if they allowed an option (maybe for some extra money) to those who wanted this option to remove any sort of protection against USER using the device the way they wanted to

Apple already offers this option. It costs $649 to buy a Mac mini if you don't already own a Mac, and then $99 per year to join the iOS developer program.

Re:iOS developer program

[roman_mir]

I understand this is 'tongue in cheek' sort of, but then if that is true, then I am correct, it makes them more money to sell the ability to break the devices out of jail and do whatever you want with them.

If this is how they do it and it makes them more profit, then it is what it is. They are not reaching many more consumers with it, just a very select few though, so it's still a very limited option.

Re:iOS developer program

[tepples]

if that is true, then I am correct, it makes them more money to sell the ability to break the devices out of jail and do whatever you want with them.

Exactly. It's actually based on the deal that Microsoft introduced with Xbox Live Indie Games: buy a new PC with Windows and pay $99 per year for App Hub and you'll get the right to develop Xbox 360 games in C#. This model is actually less closed than it used to be with the other game consoles and BREW smartphones, where one had to have "relevant industry experience" in order to qualify for a devkit. And in order to gain such experience, one had to leave his family behind and move to the same city as an established mainstream video game development firm.

Android back is like Windows Alt+F4

[tepples]

The back button on the HTC is unbelievably broken

Back on an Android-powered device always closes the frontmost window. It's not unlike Alt+F4 on a PC running Windows. Maybe you haven't picked up on it because web pages are treated as windows in the back stack.

Re:Android back is like Windows Alt+F4

[s73v3r]

Yes, but would you say it's not unreasonable to expect the Back button to take you to the Message List from the Conversation View in an SMS app? Especially given the fact that almost none of them have a way to get back to the Message List from the Conversation View because they all expect you to use the Back button?

Windshield washer fluid

[tepples]

And unless I'm refilling the wiper fluid, I never want to open the hood.

To continue the analogy, some companies' products don't even let you do that. You have to use the company's own brand of fluid, or the reservoir won't refill.

Re:Windshield washer fluid

[Guy Harris]

To continue the analogy, some companies' products don't even let you do that. You have to use the company's own brand of fluid, or the reservoir won't refill.

If you're talking about Apple, it's more like "you have to use a manufacturer-approved brand of fluid, or the reservoir won't refill".

more details ?

[Tom]

Hm, what am I missing here?

It requires an already jailbroken device. So you need to be root already. What additional functions does this allow you to access that you don't already can?

some development...

[Anonymous Coward]

Man, call me old school, but wiring up a max232 to serial lines isn't really something I'd call a major development. He managed to wire it to an Apple docking connector? He's sucking 3.3V from the interface and wired in an actual resistor? Wow.

The magic in this is knowing what the iPhone is going to do and how to get it in a debug mode where a serial port might be handy. That's useful.

I am surprised that it doesn't take much to impress this community. God forbid anyone ever had to do any hardware work. This is a serial port for crissake. BFD.

My Android phone works fine without hacking

[Snarky McButtface]

The hacking is for fun.

Computer nerds used to like this

[vijayiyer]

Back when Slashdot had "news for nerds" instead of a bunch of fanboys living in their basement, people would be excited about hacks like this. Instead, we get a back and forth by who haven't written a line of code in their life and know absolutely nothing about security. I don't know why I still read this crap.

AT&T has been unhiding "Unknown sources"

[tepples]

They do if you're on AT&T.

Did, past tense. Due to customer demand for Amazon Appstore, AT&T has been unhiding "Unknown sources". Besides, AT&T phones have always supported adb install; Google won't let the manufacturer use Android Market without it.

Not a Debug Port

[n7ytd]

All iPods/iPhones using the standard 30 pin connector (and some earlier on the headphone jack as well) have a serial port as two of the pins on the dock connector. It is there for accessories to communicate with the device. You need to have an NDA in place with Apple to get the protocol commands, which are a PITA and very limited in function.

Jailbreaking just opens up the serial port for use as a general-use port, by running different software on the device.

a direct quote from the parent post :-)

[Anonymous Coward]

I cant count the numerous number of times I have taken my HTC out of my pocket to find my penis or keys

I dunno what to think about the parent post.

On the one hand, he sounds smart, reasoned, and passionate about his tech experiences, so he sounds like a geek.

On the other hand, a real geek surely would obsessively COUNT how many times they took an HTC out of their pocket to find their penis.