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Science Fair Entry Shuts Down Airport Terminal
OverTheGeicoE writes "A graduate student was returning home from a science fair in Omaha with his handmade entry in his carry-on luggage. When the TSA discovered it, they shut down the airport terminal for several hours, until they could determine it was harmless. All of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again, so before you fly with your homemade Minty MP3 player, make sure you take a look at TSA Blogger Bob's warning or it could wind up looking like this."
.. but a cursory glance at the device makes me think "This is some kid's electronics project."
The only thing in the photo that looks 'odd' is the wooden box, which is obviously (knowing that it's an MP3 player) the speaker.
The "after" photo looks like the TSA decided to be dicks after they figured out it lacked any kind of explosive capability.
Listen when he explains the FOUR items that each IED has: 1. Power Source 2. Initiator 3. Explosive Material ...
I feel so damn safe.
The "Minty Fresh" mp3 player wasn't just examined, or even pried open to see what was inside. It was maliciously torn to shreds. What do those Luddite TSA agents think could be hiding in a millimeter thick sheet of Aluminum lid? It looks like they put it into a blender.
This isn't looking out for "Public Safety", this is intimidation just because they can. Light your next bonfire with a copy of the Constitution. At least the paper it's written on can be used for something, even if the words are worthless.
Running with Linux for over 20 years!
Sooo they thought it was an explosive and they smashed it to pieces to stop it from exploding? Those are some pretty advanced bomb disposal techniques.
...idiots.
Seriously stupid people who couldn't pour piss out a boot if it weren't for the instructions on the heel.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
We live in a post-9/11 world. We have to forfeit some of our rights in order to fight the terrorists. If you're not doing anything wrong, then you have nothing to fear. Think of the children.
Vote Palin 2012.
So... let's see to sum this up: 12 year olds traveling with science projects are terrorists?
At what point do you go... "ok I don't really know what an IED is cause I've never seen one, the people that make them, make me piss my pants in 30 seconds or less cause I'm an overempowered baggage handler. cause I'm a glorified baggage handler, this looks like an IED, but wait it's a 12 year old kid, maybe I should exercise restraint?"
Even if the device is harmless, it doesn't mean they don't truly need to give it a few extra *really* careful looks.
This is not a troll. I had something similar happen to me, but don't feel a burning desire to recount it play-by-play or have the FBI file re-opened.
(Yes, really)
I will just say that it was a perfect storm of fluke events and the fact I was carrying a home-built electronics project in my *checked* luggage that caused their BAO to take extreme interest in my bag, and myself.
At some point, those of us who are building this stuff need to take a step back and remember that we're probably smarter than MOST of the TSA employees who will come across our devices. Fear of the uknown, anyone? Not exactly new.
We shouldn't be surprised when they freak out. We live in the age of shiny, plastic, crap. Bare wires scare people.
Fed-Ex may be the path of least resistance.
Mankind is divided into three kinds of people: Those who can count, and those who can't.
So someone makes a real bomb "look" like a "bomb" and waltzes right through your "security".
When did TSA monkeys go from "agents" to "officers?"
Why bother voting Palin? You know there's a Democrat in the white house RIGHT THIS SECOND right? And the Democrats have had control of house, senate, and white house within the last few years, and they most certainly didn't finally fight this TSA nonsense- in fact, in the 80s, they were in favor of something like this.
Can't blame Bush anymore. Guess you'll have to accept that they are all corrupt control freaks, eh? Both major parties are opposed to freedom, privacy, and any amount of self determination. I understand that once you pick Red or Blue you want to assign all the Bad Things to the Other Color, but it's just not that simple.
Meanwhile, they completely missed the real bomb he was carrying inside his bible.
I'm more interested in this fair. I've never heard of a science fair for graduate students. And what exactly did his device do? The sources all seem to just say it has a purpose and looks scary. If I were this kid I'd be more insulted than anything, that my project looks so shoddy it appears to be something an uneducated terrorist might make.
really are that stupid since the very next day some idiot was trying to bring homemade fireworks onto the plane.
Personally I'd rather have my idiots at home glued to the TV than out doing idiotic things
Cleric: And the Lord spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it.
Brother Maynard: Amen.
All: Amen.
King Arthur: Right. One... two... five.
Galahad: Three, sir.
King Arthur: Three.
:(){
Graduate students have always been the abused 'subjects' of their professoritti-elite, but man that's just downright mean.
Stuff like this often makes me decide to drive instead of fly. Supposedly, a train ride is a good substitute for a plane trip as well.
PS: I don't reply to ACs.
You forgot to add "God bless America", you filthy communist!
As far as I’m concerned, all of this airport security – the cameras, the questions, the screening, the searches, is just one more way of reducing your liberty and reminding you they can fuck with you anytime they want, as long as you’re willing to put up with it. Which means, of course, anytime they want. Because that’s the way Americans are now. They’re always willing to trade away a little of their freedom for the feeling – the illusion – of security.
Democracy Now! - your daily, uncensored, corporate-free
Look at the picture. It's a fingerbox. The student was clearly trying to troll the TSA.
You sound patriotic...perhaps a little too patriotic, comrade.
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
Every high school has at least one student that builds a fully functioning nuclear bomb for their science fair project.
Fight Spammers!
So it seems that TSA Bob is suggesting that separating pieces of your custom electronics may help your luggage get through TSA screening. Since this device was found in carry-on baggage I don't know how much that would help. I often travel with custom and semi-custom electronics in my checked baggage and I've never had a problem (although I regularly find the "searched by TSA" card when I reach my destination). A couple things I do:
-Put custom electronics in my checked baggage whenever possible
-Put the parts in separate containers whenever possible
-Separate batteries, antennas, and other accessories from the devices
-Try not to travel to Phoenix (nothing to do with custom electronics or TSA, I've had two bags seriously damaged at PHX)
Also, be aware that "rubber-ducky" type antennas show up as a thin metal blade/wire on x-ray. I've had my carry-on's searched a couple times because I forgot to put an antenna in my checked baggage, although it's never been a problem once I took it out of the bag and showed it to the agent.
So after they put this in every train station and bus stop you will be saying "well you should have walked".
From the photographs, they opened up the battery compartment and poked around, before deciding the device was dangerous and had to be destroyed with explosives.
If they were worried it was a bomb, why were they playing around with it first?
I travel with hand made electronic boards in my carry-on luggage on virtually every flight I've taken since 2006 (as part of my job), and I fly about 2-4 times/month. The only time my bag has been searched (triggered by the x-ray scan) was when I was travelling with a isolation transformer (about a pound of steel and copper). If what Blogger Bob is talking about was commonplace, I'm sure I'd at least have gotten my bags hand-screened a few more times.
"Can't blame Bush anymore."
I blame Bush for starting this stuff. I blame Obama for not ending it.
We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
Just in case you're not bored of them already, one I found in the comments to TFA: http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/28773212/detail.html. Not only do they take a diabetic's insulin, they don't even manage to find all of it!
Is 1563649 a prime number?
I think they have it backwards...
I'm shocked and appalled that wearing such a device to an airport has a chance of winding you up in the morgue!
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
I blame Bush for starting this stuff. I blame Obama for not ending it.
I think it's clearly Bush's fault Obama has to blame Bush for everything.
Why not ask the guy what it is. Let him explain why it is there, what it does. Maybe bring in someone with some engineering experience.
If the guy is a suicide bomber, you are already dead. If he isn't, then you have every reason to listen to him. If you can't find any place for explosives to be hiding, then it isn't dangerous.
Wires alone are poor indicators that you have a bomb. Thousands of times of devices have wires and are not bombs than devices with wires that are bombs. Maybe even millions of times as many devices as a TSA agent is going to encounter.
Bombs can be made to look totally innocent. Even if you open them and look at them.
The Intelligent thing to do is to do a bit of training as to what might really be a bomb, and who might really be a bomber, and how to call in someone to evaluate a situation quickly before thousands and thousands of dollars are spent and people's lives are disrupted by something that can be safely evaluated quickly by someone with training.
So the terrorists have won it seems. I'm am effectivly tormented by my government and all The Luddites whom think the sky is falling. Gets self sufficient! Educate your self. Help a neighbor, help a stranger stop the terror! Stop the complaining and do something! >> Vote Palin 2012 Sure I enjoy the farcically parody of mature decision making governments! How about taking your head out of your backside long enough to realize that it's people like her and the tea party that make the USA look so damn bad. You just about flushed the entire country due to the Palin Tea Party radical's.
Your Palin comment, while designed to be funny, isn't. Have you even seen what she thinks of the TSA and all that or you just assuming? In the end, all you've done is proved you're even more shallow than she is.
She believes all of THESE kinds of examples are nothing more than Politically Correct Security. The problem is that the LEFT WING handcuffs how we do things because it might "offend" the terrorists ^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Muslims and incite them to commit acts of terrorism. So we pat down Granny's Diaper, confiscate Insulin, Fondle little kids and least ... smash a toy MP3 player.
http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2630366/posts
If you're going to criticize Palin, make sure it is legitimate. This isn't one of those cases (there are plenty to choose from)
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
keep your fucking hands the fuck off my body.
you do not own us.
you are the government. you serve us. not the other way around.
palin sees you!
Looking up the phrase "terrorist organization", it seems obvious to me that members of a terrorist organization were present at the time the kid's MP3 player was destroyed.
And the kid was not one of them.
I'm in my right mind and I have the answer to everything!
Looks like a bomb and you don't joke around at the airport with stuff like that.
There are sings there saying not to even joke about having a gun there.
> Vote Palin 2012.
I read that as Vote Putin 2012.
by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
The unabomber used wooden boxes If was a scanner after seeing some like that would tell some one that I have some thing that looks like a bomb.
The airlines are not suing the government to stop the TSA, so by implication they are happy with the arrangement.
The fact that I'm not suing you doesn't imply I'm happy with you.
You don't HAVE to fly. There are other means of transportation.
The TSA has already asserted they have the right to screen those as well. Give them time.
When you board an airplane, you trade your constitutional rights away in exchange for the convenience.
If I were FLYING the airplane, maybe. But as a passenger in locked compartment with no access to flight controls? Why exactly is it reasonable to trade away rights for the "convenience" of being a passenger?
You do the same thing when you drive a car, you trade away many constitutional rights when you climb behind the wheel and go out on the public roadway.
Because they are DRIVING the car. The passengers in the back seat don't need special licenses or government approval, nor should they.
Or do you think one should need a national id card, and be prepared to show it at any time for the convenience of being a passenger in the back seat. After all, its just trading away rights for convenience... you don't HAVE to ride in the backseat... you could always get out and walk.
There is no way that the police could do this to you if your were in your own home.
Why not? What's the real difference between a passenger on a plane, and a guy who lives on the 12th floor of a skyskraper? He could be building a bomb in there set to take down the whole building!! You don't know he's not... you better screen him. Its just trading away rights for the convenience of living in a tower in the city... you don't HAVE to live there, there are other places you could live.
except that this actually isn't security theater. It's the useful kind of security procedure that actually prevents bad stuff happening. Screening of cargo and investigation of suspicious looking bits of cargo is how they stopped the printer-cartridge-bomb plot, for instance.
It's all very well to knee-jerk off about how the TSA is full of idiots and they're trampling over your inalienable rights and freedoms and blah fucking blah, but at least spend a few minutes thinking about the context. This science project was a fairly simple, hand-built electronic device with improvised casing whose purpose isn't immediately determinable. The TSA says, and I'm happy to defer to their superior experience on this specific point, that bomb detonators they catch often look like - in fact, are - fairly simple, hand-built electronic devices with hand-built cases whose purpose isn't immediately discernible. Are you seriously suggesting it's 'security theater' to screen airplane cargo and take a closer look at improvised electronic devices? Really? If so, I'm damn well not flying on _your_ airline.
It's not like they arrested the kid and hauled him off to Guantanamo Bay or something. They found a suspicious device and performed an exhaustive investigation to figure out what it was. Which came to the right conclusion. I don't really see that anything happened wrong here.
More correctly ... SOME improvised explosive devices have home-made electronics as components.
Others, such as the shoe bomber's and captain underpants', do not.
Home-made electronics do NOT look like IEDs.
Some IEDs contain home-made electronics.
The difference is important when you compare the number of times home-made electronics have been mistaken for IEDs versus the number of IEDs that have been caught being smuggled into airports in the USofA.
Geeze, talk about incompetent reporting. No, graduate students don't compete their research in "science fairs". It was a CONFERENCE. Specifically, a physics education conference: the 2011 American Association of Physics Teachers Summer Meeting at Creighton University.
That was a real MP3 player.
And no, I am not going to vote for anyone who believes the Earth is less than a billion years old.
We live in a post-9/11 world.
Yeah, so what? Fucking get over it!
We have to forfeit some of our rights in order to fight the terrorists.
That have already won. America is bankrupt.
If you're not doing anything wrong, then you have nothing to fear.
I fear nothing weather I am doing wrong or not.
Think of the children.
Bugger the children!
Vote Palin 2012.
It makes no difference who you vote for. The United Corporation of America is what really runs the country.
Why is it that most of the people that I encounter seem to have been shat from the Sphincter of Mediocrity?
It isn't just do-it-yourself gear that can arouse suspicion. My Zoom H4N digital recorder has elicited attention from the TSA. The two built-in mikes at the front apparently make it look a lot like a Taser on the scanner.
That's good advice whether you're flying or not, unless it's January.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
except that this actually isn't security theater. It's the useful kind of security procedure that actually prevents bad stuff happening. Screening of cargo and investigation of suspicious looking bits of cargo is how they stopped the printer-cartridge-bomb plot, for instance.
Umm.. no, they stopped the printer cartridge bomb plot because they got a tip off from prince Mohammed bin Nayef. Security checkpoints failed to detect the bombs. It sounds like torturing prisoners in gitmo did, though.
Since you don't seem to know what you're talking about you can go read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_planes_bomb_plot
So, yeah.. "security theater" sounds about right to me. Harass people carrying harmless devices, completely miss actual bombs.
Airplanes are private property. If you don't like what they do, don't set foot on their property.
Airports that deal with commercial travel, are public property. Those public airports may be owned by the state or other municipalities, and make up the largest percentage of airports. These public airports are where the constitutional rights are being surrendered by US citizens to US government officials, whom the citizens are supposed to be expressly protected from in their constitutionally granted rights. There are privatized airports and chartered commercial flights, that is not what we're talking about.
The airlines are not suing the government to stop the TSA, so by implication they are happy with the arrangement.
The airlines are not the victims. The state of Texas tried to do something about it, and the Department of Justice threatened to make Texas a federal "no-fly" zone (See: TSA vs Texas).
You don't HAVE to fly. There are other means of transportation.
Its the most reasonable form of long distance inter-state and international travel. Certain people who travel for work may only be able to travel in a reasonable amount of time by flight, not because it is a matter of personal choice.
When you board an airplane, you trade your constitutional rights away in exchange for the convenience.
There is no provision or asterisk, in the letter of the law, that one shall only have their constitutional rights some of the time, or when its deemed convenient.
You do the same thing when you drive a car, you trade away many constitutional rights when you climb behind the wheel and go out on the public roadway. Again we do it out of convenience, the loss of rights has much lower value than the utility of transportation. For example, the police can ask you to get out of your car and take a sobriety test. There is no way that the police could do this to you if your were in your own home.
Probable cause does not mean you waive your constitutional rights upon entering/operating a car, its a reasonable discretionary stipulation in the law. Many states even have laws in place to pre-announce holiday sobriety checkpoints to the public, so as to not egregiously violate constitutional rights.
/^([Ss]ame [Bb]at (time, |channel.)){2}$/
That have already won. America is bankrupt and scared into luidicrous security theatre.
FTFY
Yup. I recently learned that ordinary 9V batteries are an issue. Normally I will leave consumer electronics assembled. But recently we were pulled aside because the 9V battery in the metronome in my 12yo daughter's violin case looked suspicious. The violin, on the X-Ray machine, looks unmistakeably like a violin. We've never had an issue with it. But somehow the 9 volt battery looks opaque and chunky enough that they dug things apart until they found it. So... I've added 9V batteries to the list of things to remove and expose. The mesh water-bottle pockets in the sides of backpacks are a good place to put things like that -- nothing needs to be unpacked to identify the opaque mystery-block.
The unabomber used wooden boxes If was a scanner after seeing some like that would tell some one that I have some thing that looks like a bomb.
TSA Training Lession 1: If it's not a flag, it's a bomb.
Any insufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.
So in other words, just because someone goes to MIT doesn't mean they are necessarily bright.
I miss candidate Obama. He was so much closer to my views on this than the guy in the White House now seems to be.
Blessed are the pessimists, for they have made backups.
Yeah, the real problem here is that the governmet has decided to take reasoning that makes perfect sense in a war zone and apply it to our communities.
At places where IEDs are a common and real threat to soldiers, it makes sense to treat any jury-rigged wiring as a potential IED. In a country that has millions of people flying every year without a single actual incident of a bomb, it doesn't.
Same with all the no-knock raids that end up killing innocent people. It is perfectly reasonable for the resident to have a gun in hand when responding to someone busting into his house at night. It is also perfectly reasonable for a cop to defend himself. The problem is the idiots in the police department that think it is a good idea have our cops act like soldiers in a war-zone, just to enforce laws which aren't a life-and-death matter.
"No real bomber would be so obvious" is self-refuting. As soon as you decide not to suspect devices because they are too obvious, they become "not too obvious" because they are now the perfect thing for a bomber to use to avoid suspicion.
It's also true that
1) many bombers are stupid and *will* make bombs that are fairly obvious, and
2) bombing is a high-stress occupation and high stress leads bombers to act in stupid ways anyway.
If I wanted to run the lives of millions of people I'd probably set aside the cash to pay for the reason people welcome it with fanfare. Such as getting a news story printed that claims people might smuggle a bomb on a plane in a printer. It was a story. Like at bedtime. Lets be real, if the brown people we torment were really that capable and motivated they'd be suicide bombing our asinine security lineups. Wouldn't that be a chuckle? What then? If they had separate flights for adults who don't quiver with joy when corporate government takes their rights away, I'd fly on those planes instead. Once I was sure the powers that be weren't bombing those too to whip the processed people into a fury.
you mean Goofy would have done all of this too???!!?!! you forget we do have a write in space.
All of the above was encrypted with a Quad ROT-13 method. Unauthorized decryption is in violation of the DMCA.
this and this I see what you did there...getting "+5 Funny" multiple times for exactly the same comment, with one phrase switched around in the order, eh?
From that Twitter post:
No. Profiling is done AFTER a crime has been committed. And it is based upon the evidence found at the crime scene.
And it gives you a location and a time to match the people matching the profile against.
She is wrong because you would end up with far more false positives when you try to profile BEFORE a crime is committed.
Not to mention that the real terrorists would be able to guess what the profile was and recruit people who did not match it.
And your phrasing of that is the problem. You're conflating "terrorists" and "Muslims". Nice. So all that a terrorist would have to do to get through your profile would be to claim to be Christian.
Palin sucks. Obama sucks. Bush sucks. McCain (while honorable in his military service) currently sucks. Boehner sucks. Reid sucks. We are in a country of >300M people and these are the best we can come up with.
I want my rights back. I was actually using them when our government stole them after 9/11.
In the real world, in the absence of government, I could walk up to you and smash you in the head with a rock killing you and then take everything you have without consequence. There's your "inherent" rights.
That is only true in isolation; that is, only if you and your victim are the only people to witness. Otherwise, there will probably be consequences. Do that to someone in your same hypothetical absence of government in front of the victim's friends or family or other such group that we humans have evolved to form so readily, and I highly doubt that you would be walking away "without consequence".
So called "inherent rights" and "natural rights" are not necessarily, clear, discrete properties of an organism or a person or however you are defining us. Rather, they are more like emergent properties that will emerge naturally from being the gregarious social organism we have evolved to be. Rights appear because of the "social contract" of being such an organism.
And if you still think those rights are "inherent" then I suggest you take a trip to Somalia or Afghanistan or Syria or Bahrain.
And if you think in such a place a person can do anything like you suggested in your hypothetical example, you are also much mistaken. There will be consequences. Take away someone's "right to life" and unjustly kill them in front of anyone, friend or family or other, who thinks fondly of them for feels you are being unjust, and you may just find there are consequences to infringing on someone's so-called rights.
"Empathise with stupidity, and you're halfway to thinking like an idiot." - Iain M. Banks
If you were a TSA agent and overlooking something like this could cost you your job, what would you do? When my daughter flew to Costa Rica she had two Jaguar radio tracking collars in her luggage. We put a note by each one explaining what they were and a picture of a Jaguar wearing one the note had my phone number asking to please call me to get them if they wouldn't be allowed. As it turned out the xray machine was at the baggage check and I told the agent if there was a problem to let me know. Result no problem. If I were taking something for work I would probably Fedex it to bypass the issue.
Don't even joke around like that. You're just encouraging the poop-eaters who actually believe things like you're saying.
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
I didn't know terrorists used veroboard and what exactly was his science project meant to do.
If an international traveler went through the airport with such a device and didn't speak English, he could wind up in the morgue, if the Boston cops followed their protocol.
A lot of deaf people were killed by cops because they didn't follow spoken orders.
get more and more people to slow down airports with legal homemade electronics. it'd make me smile at the wholly retarded nature of the entire situation.
...
Yup. Doing what S.O.B. described is likely to get you forfeiture of your own "right to life" as the response to murder in absence of government is usually a swift death of the murderer if they're caught.
Inherent rights are mostly just those things that are the result of reaction to unwarranted force being used against a given person. I work a plot of land and you try to take it, I'm going to do whatever is in my power to prevent that. You attempt to take my life, ditto. That's pretty much the beginning and end of the fundamental basis of inherent rights. Nobody who has a functional sense of morality is going to fault me for defending myself. That's what makes it inherent.
Up until the point where they shut down half the airport, I'd have agreed. This is the sort of situation where you could ask the person to describe the contents of his/her luggage, then open the luggage, inspect the contents to verify that the story was plausible, and you're done.
If you don't have people smart enough to figure out how to verify the safety of the device, then that's half your problem right there. Hire smarter people. But I digress. In the absence of such intelligent people, you pull the person into a screening area, and you pick up your radio and you call for somebody smarter than you.
As soon as the words "shuts down airport terminal" appear arising out of a kid's science project, it's an epic fail. Either it means that they overreacted or it means that they don't have even one single secure storage area where they can place a dangerous device without risk to the public. Either one is a sign that these people know about as much security as the average Slashdotter knows about women....
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
That is only true in isolation; that is, only if you and your victim are the only people to witness. Otherwise, there will probably be consequences. Do that to someone in your same hypothetical absence of government in front of the victim's friends or family or other such group that we humans have evolved to form so readily, and I highly doubt that you would be walking away "without consequence".
So called "inherent rights" and "natural rights" are not necessarily, clear, discrete properties of an organism or a person or however you are defining us. Rather, they are more like emergent properties that will emerge naturally from being the gregarious social organism we have evolved to be. Rights appear because of the "social contract" of being such an organism.
My hypothetical example was a simple one to illustrate that there are no inherent rights. You complicated the example to include society/government protection to illustrate that the inherent rights are not truly inherent but are a result of societal convention and the governments that, well, govern us.
And if you think in such a place a person can do anything like you suggested in your hypothetical example, you are also much mistaken. There will be consequences. Take away someone's "right to life" and unjustly kill them in front of anyone, friend or family or other, who thinks fondly of them for feels you are being unjust, and you may just find there are consequences to infringing on someone's so-called rights.
Since my hypothetical example was, uhhhhhm hypothetical, that is clearly not what I was suggesting. I was suggesting that the "inherent" rights in The Constitution are not very inherent in those countries.
Some of what I say is fact, some is conjecture, the rest I'm just blowing out my ass...you guess.
The best don't want anything to do with the political system.
...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
I thought that was supposed to be Ron Paul, which worked until he spoke, then he was the Republican only Idiotarians should vote for.
Learn to love Alaska
The last time somebody seriously tried this (1861) about 500K Americans were dead back when the population was around 31M total. Most of them in the area that was in favor of the idea. Today the result would much likely be worse. Don't be a dead idiot. Even if you did win, you'll lose so much financially and otherwise you'll likely wish you'd died instead *and* the likely result in terms of rights will be you will have less.
The Left Wing wants to make sure we follow the Constitution, which isn't a concern for the Right Wing unless they are talking about one of the few clauses they like (the Second Amendment seemingly being the only one most of the time). Equal Rights and Due Process are hated by the Right Wing, especially when that means the Muslims get the same rights as white Christians.
Learn to love Alaska
Airports are almost all public property, and the screenings take place regardless of whether you board (though you must have a valid ticket and they must believe that you are intending to board).
Learn to love Alaska
Haven't you listened to any Libertarians recently? The only one with any rights on private property is the owner. It's a class system, landowners get more rights than those who don't own property. Poor have no rights. The Constitution only applies to the government, so yes, a private person can do anything that doesn't involve violence to you that they wish on their property. Oh, and not leaving their property fast enough after they ask you to is "violence" in libertarian definitions.
Learn to love Alaska
Bush dug a giant hole. Not surprised Obama is still digging out of it. Too bad McCain didn't win so at least the responsibly would have landed on the right political party.
It's because the majority of people will not accept someone who is pragmatic and responsible. The majority (read: idiots) hate people who talk about hard truths and propose pragmatic solutions; they'd rather listen to someone spew bile and vitriol while hopping around like a chimpanzee on crack (read: Glenn Beck). The slightly-less-than-majority hate anyone who can spend the time to balance a checkbook and limit their spending to be something within their means.
People in large numbers do not value truth or pragmatism. They value appearance and theater.
Maybe after the next revolution we'll limit payment for elected office to be room and board at the rate of the national average, a limit of one term in elected office at a given level (elected to a national office? you can never be elected to any national office ever again...), dissolution of any corporation giving funds to any candidate, and no benefits continuing past the term of election.
TL;DR: You have to be a piece of shit to win an election that means anything in almost every case.
This is why we need other parties, who are against these things. It's pointless to vote. :(
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
And of course Kerry wrote significant portions of the Patriot act itself. They all suck.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos!
Slow Down Cowboy! It's been 1 hour, 47 minutes since you last successfully posted a comment
We live in a post-9/11 world. We have to forfeit some of our rights in order to fight the terrorists. If you're not doing anything wrong, then you have nothing to fear. Think of the children.
Vote Palin 2012.
We live in a post Genghis Khan world, we have to forfeit the rights to ride a horse in order to prevent another Genghis Khan from ever happening again. Slaughter every horsie you see, even if you think it's just a pony.
Not American so I dont need to make some thinly veiled political statement.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
You do realize that the TSA was not Bush's idea, right? The TSA was tacked on to one of the bills by the Democrats and Bush was afraid that opposing it would hurt his re-election chances? Of course, Bush should have held out against it and he can rightly be blamed for not doing so.
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
Please name one Left Wing politician who wants us to follow the Constitution?
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
It doesn't look like a bomb to me; it looks like a mundane pile of sloppy hobby electronics. I recall other bomb scares caused by mundane and innocuous devices, such as an LED display in Boston a number of years ago. Such things are just ordinary everyday items to me, and to a lot of other people. How are we supposed to be able to predict which mundane, everyday objects might look like a bomb to some low-grade idiot who clearly couldn't tell an actual bomb from their own ass?
Isn't one advantage of C4 that it can be handled exactly like Playdough?
Dropbox drops it like it's hot.
I don't expect experts but have some common sense. Reality is that something the size of an altoids tin won't take down a plane.
Really? That's common sense? How could it be common sense unless the minimum size device needed to take down a plane was something everyone would know from day to day experience?
Do you know what that minimum size is? Is it even possible to set a minimum boundary? As a data point, consider that Pan Am 103 was brought down by a mere 250 g of plastic explosive -- a small enough amount that it was disguised in the chassis of a portable tape player and stowed in a checked bag. There may possibly be more powerful explosives, and it is certainly possible to place an explosive more favorably than in a randomly oriented bag stored in an aluminum box in the cargo hold. That was a common explosive; it's believed there are explosives that are half again as powerful, although they aren't readily synthesized.
As somebody who's messed with electronics I'd recognize an Altoid tin project for what it is. In fact I'd be *less* suspicious of an Altoid tin project than something like a laptop. Even so it's ridiculous to talk about "common sense" when it comes to bombs. Most people have never seen a homemade bomb in their life, and even those who mess around with them recreationally have no idea what somebody with relevant engineering expertise could manage.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Does anyone know if TSA has a prescreening or pre-clearing process, in which you can take an unusual device to them for inspection prior to baggage inspections so that they can inspect an unusual electronic device prior to the normal baggage screening process?
I am in the process of building a single plane structured range sensing device, meant to be portable so that I can take it to various museums world wide to measure biological materials. Because it will be relatively expensive to build and may confuse some TSA personnel, who might mistakenly think it is in someway harmful to anyone, it would be desirable to pre-clear it with TSA so that I don't wind up either without my device at my destination or my device rendered damaged or destroyed.
Any suggestions as to how to label it, document it, etc by anyone with a similar potential problem would be appreciated, especially those who may fly with medical or electronic devices of an unusual nature would be appreciated.
I think that is a rather narrow view of libertarianism. It really has nothing to do with the central point of the parent's or grandparent's post. Neither poster ever brought up libertarianism to begin with.
The parent post was countering the grandparent's point using extreme hyperbole.
As it has been pointed out by, both you and I, the airports in question are public property.
Please, try not to over-generalize and lump an entire political movement in with the ignorant viewpoints of the grandparent poster.
/^([Ss]ame [Bb]at (time, |channel.)){2}$/
He's a Republican Manchurian Candidate. He would have said anything to get in. Now he's only got to say enough to keep a serious contender out of the primary. He's a Republican, and a highly calculating one at that.
Either that or he's just about the most incompetent president in history. Much worse than GW, who wrecked the country but got his way in doing so.
I'm really not sure which.
Toy ... you missed the point of that whole sentence if you think I was talking about his MP3 player.
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
The bottom line is that the political fallout of a spectacular terrorist attack is much greater than the dissatisfaction over TSA privacy annoyances. I'm not condoning TSA's actions, only assessing the political climate.
Terrorist hijackings & explosions make memorable news and headlines. TSA's antics mostly makes for grumbles and funny jokes.
Thus, the American people are largely "at fault". If we react to the shiny red ball, then the shiny red ball gets the political attention. Democracy in action. If a political party ignores human nature, then human nature will ignore them.
Table-ized A.I.
I think that is a rather narrow view of libertarianism. It really has nothing to do with the central point of the parent's or grandparent's post. Neither poster ever brought up libertarianism to begin with.
I think that the issue of domain over private property is central to the original post, and the position they offered "you stepped onto their property, you deserve what you get" is very much at the core of Libertarianism in the US. I agree I have a narrow view. Libertarians I run into are conservative Republicans who are either fed up with the religious puritans dominating the Republican party sometimes, or they want "fiscal conservatism" in the sense that they want cuts in what they don't like and *only* in what they don't like. They'd be happy with increased government spending for a large number of things (like prisons and military) and cuts in things they don't like (you'd have to ask them, I'm sure that anything I said here would be interpreted as disparaging, even if meant only as an impartial observation). They are extreme Republicans without a conscience. Having heard many official spokesmen of the Libertarian Party advocate or defend toll sidewalks just to hear self-professed Libertarians abandon an "official" position because it's inconvenient and the other things that have irritated me about them (like the stance on abortion being officially pro-choice, but anti-choice in candidates and actions in office), I have little tolerance for the Loonitarian party. When the initial respondant indicated that he thought the original post was a little over the top, I was just trying to point out that it was a mainstream view, if one considers Loonitarians in the mainstream, as many here do.
Learn to love Alaska
"Can't blame Bush anymore.'
Why not? The Republicans just recently stopped blaming Clinton for everything.
http://www.rootstrikers.org/
And then they wonder why they just got a lifetime dose of lead after pointing their super realistic replica pistol with lifelike muzzle flash and sounds at a police officer at night.
Just because something is "your right" doesn't make it the smart or correct thing to do.
That's baloney. The American Muslim community supplies tips to the FBI leading to terrorism arrests, up to half of the recent US cases. Secondly, the latest cases of airline terrorism weren't done by Muslims; remember Andrew Joseph Stack? Thirdly, Israeli security knows how futile it is to profile only Muslims, when a pregnant Irish woman named Ann Murphy was caught trying to smuggle a bomb into Israel (her Jordanian boyfriend put her up to it). You HAVE to search everyone or else terrorists will know precisely who to have carry their bag in for them.
Dennis Kuchinich? He carries a pocket-sized constitution in his pocket at all times (which he pulled out at the debate to show everyone). 2007 video
And the land of the FREE^ and the home of the BRAVE*.
^Some terms and conditions may apply. Offer not valid in all areas. Tyrants excepted.
*Brave - noun - North American Warrior.
Time for a new anthem methinks.
To trash something that looks like an explosive
And what happens when the next dude to (hopefully only attempt to) blow up a plane is a white, Christian, Unabomber-type wacko?*
(*that's a trick question: those kind of terrorists target govt. buildings, not planes full of innocent people.)
Heh. Heard of Anders Behring Breivik? (and no, his bombing of govt. buildings do not count - they were a diversion).
May we live long and die out
Some people tend to think that the constitution is a statement of fact, in a similar way to a physical law. Others seem to think you have those rights in some kind of theoretical way, which is all fine and dandy, but if you can't exercise them then it's effectively the same as not having them. I can't work out which camp the person your responding to falls into.
I was told at school not to use phrases (especially at the start of an essay) like "It is widely accepted..." "All reasonable people agree..." or "As any fule kno".
But that's exactly what the writers of the constitution did - they even added in that God says so too. Brilliant marketing. It certainly has a lot more impact than "We think it would be nice if...", "Listen up. We think this is how things should be run" or "Look, we haven't done this before. Cut us some slack, d00d, it's still in beta..."
However if you look at history, the majority of people have not enjoyed anything close to a modern conception of human rights. There is no agreement on what should be included and what shouldn't. Different societies, at different times, have applied different ones and/or only granted them to certain parts of the population.
Seems they aren't as fundamental, intrinsic or universal as the constitutional literalists would have us believe.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Dennis Kucinich voted for the individual mandate in Obamacare, try again.
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
And if you think in such a place a person can do anything like you suggested in your hypothetical example, you are also much mistaken. There will be consequences. Take away someone's "right to life" and unjustly kill them in front of anyone, friend or family or other, who thinks fondly of them for feels you are being unjust, and you may just find there are consequences to infringing on someone's so-called rights.
You could say the same thig about a bunch of animals. If I went and killed a lion cub, no doubt it's mother would quickly reduce me to cat food if she caught me.
I don't think that means the lion cub had any mystical "right to life".
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
If you have something that someone thinks looks like a bomb, how is that unreasonable?
I guess the TSA people should get better training than Hollywood movies to know what a bomb "looks like".
If I were a terrorist intent on bombing something the last thing I would do would be to make my bomb look like a bunch of cardboard tubes with wires connected to a black box with a countdown LED display. I would make my bomb look like a pair of sneakers bundled in a jacket or something like that.
Anyone who has the ability to make a bomb could make it look harmless, look how the Unabomber did it for instance.
they are doing train stations, truck stops, highways, sporting events, etc.
look up VIPR team
You know I was just about to give up on my normal daily check of SlashDot when I ran across this post by Soulskill. You sir have made my morning. I laughed my ass off and sent this to a bunch of people. Thank You!
Yup. Doing what S.O.B. described is likely to get you forfeiture of your own "right to life" as the response to murder in absence of government is usually a swift death of the murderer if they're caught.
Inherent rights are mostly just those things that are the result of reaction to unwarranted force being used against a given person. I work a plot of land and you try to take it, I'm going to do whatever is in my power to prevent that. You attempt to take my life, ditto. That's pretty much the beginning and end of the fundamental basis of inherent rights. Nobody who has a functional sense of morality is going to fault me for defending myself. That's what makes it inherent.
And what happens when that "nobody" no longer has regard for morality or common sense? I believe that is what has truly happened to not only our legal system, but our country in general. We no longer have a justice system. We have a legal system, written, approved, and ran by lawyers, for lawyers. This country responds to only those who have the power to manipulate it, which unfortunately, usually means greed rises above both morality and common sense.
I guess what I'm saying is even your inherent rights are questionable these days, no matter how fundamental and basic they may be. We no longer live in a world that can dismiss ones actions, no matter what side of right or wrong those actions may sit. No one will fault you for defending yourself you say? No criminal charges were filed? Think you're free to go? Think again, here comes the civil suit...for nothing more than pure greed.
The problem is the airport got shutdown. It shouldn't have to be shutdown if things were done properly: http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/744199---israelification-high-security-little-bother
At the check-in desk, your luggage is scanned immediately in a purpose-built area. Sela plays devil's advocate - what if you have escaped the attention of the first four layers of security, and now try to pass a bag with a bomb in it?
"I once put this question to Jacques Duchesneau (the former head of the Canadian Air Transport Security Authority): say there is a bag with play-doh in it and two pens stuck in the play-doh. That is 'Bombs 101' to a screener. I asked Ducheneau, 'What would you do?' And he said, 'Evacuate the terminal.' And I said, 'Oh. My. God.'
A screener at Ben-Gurion has a pair of better options.
First, the screening area is surrounded by contoured, blast-proof glass that can contain the detonation of up to 100 kilos of plastic explosive. Only the few dozen people within the screening area need be removed, and only to a point a few metres away.
Second, all the screening areas contain 'bomb boxes'. If a screener spots a suspect bag, he/she is trained to pick it up and place it in the box, which is blast proof. A bomb squad arrives shortly and wheels the box away for further investigation.
"This is a very small simple example of how we can simply stop a problem that would cripple one of your airports," Sela said.
Note date on article: 2009-12-30
That doesn't mean you didn't have the right, that just means people are violating them. Why is that so hard to understand? We have rights and nothing anybody does can mean it isn't a right (inviolable). By virtue of being men, we are entitled to a few things, such as life, liberty and the persuit of happiness. That, of course, does not mean nobody can enslave me without government, or government can not enslave me. It just means that I have a right not to be. The constitution says that the rights enumerated therein will be recognized by the government, and it will not make laws that are contrary to those rights. All of this other shit about what happens to rights iwthout govenrment are philosophical bullshit that are of no consequence to the question of "What are men entitled to?"
If I can just reach out with my words and touch a butthole, just one, it will all be worth it.
Seems you are of the opinion that rights have to be recognized, which isn't the case. I don't understand your viewpoint at all. The whole point of being intrinsic is that they just are that way, whether people recognize it or not. Are you of the opinion that somebody who is bound and gaggled their whole life has no right to be able to walk and talk, since they can't exercise the right? That's insane, shallow thinking. That person had those rights by virtue of being a person. The constitution makes no claim that it lists all the rights of a person, just the ones the government will not prevent a person from exercising. That nobody can agree on what the rights are does not mean the rights that do exist are not intrinsic, it just means we didn't see them for what they were. The constitution is our attempt to protect the rights of people. The more important part of the debate isn't whether or not the right to not be searched before travelling exists, the important part is that the government said it was one of the things it would not violate, and it did. It broke its own law, and at that point, what good is law?
If I can just reach out with my words and touch a butthole, just one, it will all be worth it.
It seems pretty obvious that the big three-- life, liberty, and property-- work for the unselfish. You can have all three without, as Jefferson said, picking my pocket or breaking my leg. Any "right" that requires taking someone else's life, liberty, or property is not a natural right.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
The workmanship of that project was so poor, it deserved to be blown up (although it wasn't).
My 9th-grade electronics shop projects looked better than that.
Enforcement is questionable. Keeping your rights is ultimately up to you. That's not always possible, but you're never wromg to make the attempt.
well said
I'm a king/bishop, and you're just a peasant. I'll decide what's warranted, you scum.
Unless they believe in monarchy/ theocracy, and that people should know their place.
You're talking about absolutes, and yet what you say is only even theoretically true in a small part of the world, and has only been so for a tiny part of history.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
They should have shutdown the TSA not the FAA.
Depends.
Where you attempting a to pronged methodology?
1) bomb gets through security, create explosion
2) bomb doesn't get past security, airport is shut down.
SO win if you're caught; win if your not.
Why do you assume someone tossing together a bomb would be smart? Or there line of thinking was to make it 'too obvious'?
really, what you are doing is asking them to second guess a possible bombers thinking.
"For me it looks like a block of wood with wires coming out."
so, like the uni-bombers bombs then?
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
HAve you paid attention to the level, the effort of recourse? no. of course you haven't.
And why do you thing the Dems have control of the house?
also:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-31921_3-20023476-281.html
the issue is, we are in a no win situation. If the TSA'a responsibility is rolled back to pre-9/11 and something happens, even of the TSA wouldn't have caught it, it's political suicide.
That is why removing the threat levels was such a political risky move.
How many republicans have come out and wanted the TSA to stop.. oh wait, none.
You are correct, it's not the simple; but don't let that make you think it's equal.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
What right do you think you don't have anymore?
Do you think that there has been anytime in the last 30 years that you have gone through airport screening carry a box with wires sticking out?
Economically, the people for austerity suck; because history shows that they are wrong.
What really sucks is you; because you go off oh knee jerk opinion and 'common sense' and never bother to read up on history, or facts about whatever situation you are currently complaining about.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
The US isn't bankrupt, for craps sake.
Again, something who has no clue about economics listens to the media and goes by that, fucking twit. The Pubs have been spouting that lie, and ignoring the experts. Funny how only shows that the puns attack with the ad hom 'liberal' are the only media outlets interview actual economic experts.
We will be bankrupt if we don't increase revenue, but we aren't now.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Many things have only been part of the world for a tiny part of history, and yet many of those are indisputably true when looked at neutrally. Just because an outlook is developed from societal norms does not make it valid. Many societies were/are indisputably corrupt and unjust. Those who support them and believe wholeheartedly in the application of their norms are still just as wrong when evaluated neutrally.
Just because others believe the king can arbitrarily initiate violence, I am still perfectly justified in defending myself. Anyone who believes I am wrong to do so does not have a rational perspective. Perhaps I was stupid to defend myself, but certainly was not inherently wrong to do so.
Overwhelming force does not make right, but pragmatism is not the point.
In the end, it's a philosophical argument, not a practical one.
And the lesson I learned is never to bring your USB microphone with you in your carry-on. It turns out that TSA employees get a little nervous when the x-ray machine picks up what looks like a metal cylinder with lots of electronics stuffed inside.
The microphone in question was a Blue Yeti, and the only reason I still have it in working condition is because I had it packed in its original box+styrofoam (they googled it and saw it was a legit microphone).
life, liberty, and property
I seem to remember that 3rd of the big 3 being "and the pursuit of happiness."
The fact that you equate that with "property" really explains a lot about your political opinions.
--Jeremy
Jesus was a liberal
If a kid was going to detonate a bomb, do you think it'd look like a bomb? When people hijack airplanes do they travel on board with "I'm a hijacker" t-shirts?
I heard they hand out something like that in Islam heaven.
"I brought down a plane in Allah's name and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
Cool post bro, highfive \o
Makes me wonder if we could convince enough people to write in "No-one" if they would allow us to refuse to elect a president one of these times...
Cool post bro, highfive \o
What would happen if that actually happened? Would there be no U.S. President?
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
It would set a precedent for sure if it happened, and if they "allowed" it to happen they would most likely just follow assassination protocol. With no Pres or VP we'd end up with the speaker of the house in office as the president. Probably wouldn't make much of a difference, but it would make for one HELL of a political statement.
Cool post bro, highfive \o
Hmmm.. If I had as much debit as the Government, I'd be fucking bankrupt.
Call me a fucking twit to my face, coward.
I go to the Pubs several nights a week, and such matters I never heard over the pint. Not sure what 'Pubs' you visit. You must go to fucking wine bars.
It's not that we need to increase revenue, but rather cut spending.
Why is it that most of the people that I encounter seem to have been shat from the Sphincter of Mediocrity?