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Pakistan Lets China View US Stealth Technology
Oswald McWeany writes "Tensions between the U.S. and Pakistan have moved up a notch in light of news that Pakistan allowed China to examine the downed stealth helicopter used in the operation to kill Osama bin Laden. Pakistan also provided Chinese intelligence with samples of the 'stealth skin.' 'Pakistan enjoys a close relationship with China, which is a major investor in telecommunications, ports and infrastructure in the country.'"
Did US and Pakistan have some kind of deal where they are not allowed to improve their technology with their friends if US happens to dump their trash all over the country? US would do exactly the same with UK or their other girlfriends.
Google+ vs. Facebook, and why Google+ will fail
I would say that's just what you get for leaving your stuff in someone else's house.
I'm sure this wasn't really a surprise to the US. That's why the seals spent valuable time doing their best to destroy the helicopter.
It's useless without the formula for the secret serum! It'll make a nice paperweight though...
Parts for the helicopter were probably made in China anyway.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Is it possible that the US left that helicopter there in order to mislead interested parties on stealth countermeasures and development?
Might that helicopter be, in essence, a doomed spy?
I'm not sure why anyone didn't see this coming.... I was actually surprised they didn't send some locals to clean up the chopper rests. Either that, or it's really not that advanced. Radar-reducing skins are known, and the shape didn't seem that out of the ordinary. Oh look, a cover over the tail rotor to reduce radar signature. The biggest deal would be the electronics. I can only hope they were reduced to dust.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
Anyone else find it stupid we would spend so much on a helicopter? Only the U.S....
The "Fundamental" law of religion is that the more Fundmentalist one is the more literally religious one is.
Pakistan was founded as a Muslim state, and it is not a reasonable expectation for it to work against Islam in Afghanistan by supporting the heretical idea of secular government. The only reason Islamabad gave the US the time of day in the past was to obtain arms to use against its mortal enemy India which was buddies with the Soviets during the Cold War.
The Cold War is finished, and Islamabad has everything to gain from a Talibanistan protecting its flank so it can prepare for war with India.
As Uncle Sugar wises up under pressure, Islamabad must suck up to China.
India would be wise to make buddies with the US after the US-Pak relationship collapses. If it comes to war, US assets could help India take out Pak nukes which are a menace to civilization. China would have no interest in intervention since its own Muslims are a problem more easily dealt with if Pakistan becomes an ashtray.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
Their current president was actually convicted with solid evidence of a bank bombinng extortion attempt and it says a lot about the country that we'd rather have this sort of lunatic controlling the nukes than somebody else. In all probability unless you're Israeli someone in the Pakistani gov would sell information about this helicopter to anyone on Earth.
Of course some idiot will say how Bush/Obama is no different and that they control nukes... but they didn't personally strap a bomb to someones leg in a bank robbery so it figures that they had a good sense of self preservation which is important in a leader. This is also why India doesn't need birth control so much, overpopulation will be solved because it's a ticking time bomb that all hell will break loose eventually when you consider that Crapistan has hundreds of nukes controlled by lunatics with terrorists controlling their intelligence services and all the rest.
I mean, the US did come in on a raid and killed a resident of a sovereign nation. I'm not sure how much Pakistan knew ahead of time; between information leaks in the Pakistan chain of command, and the need for plausible deniability to a populace that doesn't love the US, we will never know.
And didn't they buy the F117 Nighthawk wings that the Yugoslavs shot down? Again, this new sale is possibly disturbing, but not surprising.
They have the nuclear technology agreements and other cooperative agreements. It's all good. China, Iran, N. Korea are the REAL future threats -- and India just so happens to be stuck in the middle.
Pakistan's and America's relationship is faltering. The fact is, that pakistan is harboring terrorists PURPOSELY.
To be honest, part of the issues belong to us. W/neo-cons gave India access to 'civil' nuke tech, but not to pakistan. Once we opened that up, we basically told pakistan that we did not trust them. Of course, that was true. We don't. And we are helping what they consider their mortal enemy (even though it is also their 'brother').
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
That's what one gets from threats of bombing a country into stone age..
Yay! Cheap knock-off stealth choppers for everyone!!
If we don't want our allies showing our technology to other nations, we probably shouldn't be using it in unsanctioned murder missions within their borders.
Just saying.
that fail part at high speed or stop working after lightning strikes .
"One can not truly appreciate Shakespeare until you have heard it in it's original Klingon" -Star Trek
Well every machine has some point at which it will fail. If ours were indestructible/undetectable, it wouldn't be laying in the middle of Pakistan
The "copter" was such a setup. Look at the photos. A prop.
Also supposedly, bin Laden had no radio or Internet communications - not even TV! But half of the early photos show a huge dish - later removed.
There is nothing about that story that has any truth in it. They even "ditched" the body before any validation.
Then the once trustworthy New Yorker publishes a "real narrative" of the mission - written by an intelligence operative, who's the son of a former CIA official.
There is nothing here but lies. The only thing you can KNOW FOR SURE is that NONE of this is true.
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
It's China's soft diplomacy backed by hard currency (artificially weakened) versus US hard diplomacy by weak currency (artificially pimped and by count on the advantage of world reserve currency and unrivaled military and technological advance). But it's working for China.
China's huge dollar position is both it's strength as it's weakness, as value deteriorates. China is trying to put their money in foreign investment and soft diplomacy to gain influence in Africa, weak economies of some European countries (for example Greece) and now also Pakistan, openly, without any worries knowing it is crossing US interest. Outsourcing productivity is followed by knowledge, science and technology, in contrast with popular belief that such follow up doesn't occur. It's starts with shameless copying is the prerequisite of understanding and improvement, this is the present case for China much as it was for Japan in the past. With the only difference that it is maybe even more easy for Chinese companies, as the state is shareholder. The Chinese does business with everyone, not asking too many questions or human right issues. For those who not know, China has been most of her existence been the world power state. They have a great history in diplomatic cases.
RUN FOR THE HILLS!
Tongue in cheek.
"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
There is nothing speculative about it. Lets assume for a second that NOBODY knew about OBL (yeah, right). It is well known that they are in FATA, but it was LET that attacked in mumbai with help of the paki military. All sorts of proof of the above. In addition, we CONSTANTLY kill terrorists all over pakistan via bombs. At this point, I think that we should drop a few MOABs on various places of FATA. We know a number of the caves. Drop these in, and simply take them out. Issue solved.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
What did you expect to happen when you leave top-secret military hardware after forcing yourself into a sovereign nation?
the pinball factory was looking for some older parts to try to remake some old games.
USA has made a deal with the devil, and is betrayed one more time. Leave Pakistan to their own devices, and get out of the arena. Bin Laden is no longer an excuse for American occupation. The generals led in Viet Nam, and Afghanistan, with the same results. History has repeated itself - enough.
We should've dumped Pakistan to back India over 50 years ago. India is the good guys in both India vs. Pakistan and India vs. China.
Nuke 'em from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
Pakistan's and America's relationship is faltering. The fact is, that pakistan is harboring terrorists PURPOSELY.
To be honest, part of the issues belong to us. W/neo-cons gave India access to 'civil' nuke tech, but not to pakistan.
Once we opened that up, we basically told pakistan that we did not trust them. Of course, that was true. We don't.
And we are helping what they consider their mortal enemy (even though it is also their 'brother').
Are you FUCKING kidding me?
Pakistan nuke weapons history
Pakistan's nuclear weapons program was established in 1972 by Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, who founded the program while he was Minister for Fuel, Power and Natural Resources, and later became President and Prime Minister. Shortly after the loss of East Pakistan in the 1971 war with India, Bhutto initiated the program with a meeting of physicists and engineers at Multan in January 1972. ...
On May 28, 1998 Pakistan announced that it had successfully conducted five nuclear tests. The Pakistani Atomic Energy Commission reported that the five nuclear tests conducted on May 28 generated a seismic signal of 5.0 on the Richter scale, with a total yield of up to 40 KT (equivalent TNT). Dr. A.Q. Khan claimed that one device was a boosted fission device and that the other four were sub-kiloton nuclear devices.
On May 30, 1998 Pakistan tested one more nuclear warhead with a reported yield of 12 kilotons. The tests were conducted at Balochistan, bringing the total number of claimed tests to six. It has also been claimed by Pakistani sources that at least one additional device, initially planned for detonation on 30 May 1998, remained emplaced underground ready for detonation. ...
According to a 2001 Department of Defense report, China has supplied Pakistan with nuclear materials and expertise and has provided critical assistance in the construction of Pakistan's nuclear facilities.
In the 1990s, China designed and supplied the heavy water Khusab reactor, which plays a key role in Pakistan's production of plutonium. A subsidiary of the China National Nuclear Corporation also contributed to Pakistan's efforts to expand its uranium enrichment capabilities by providing 5,000 custom made ring magnets, which are a key component of the bearings that facilitate the high-speed rotation of centrifuges.
Let me guess: you don't have the balls to post who was President of the US in the majority of the 1990s, and particularly when Pakistan detonated its first nuclear weapons.
Jesus H. Fucking Christ, "BLAME BOOOOSH!" makes you sound like Obama on the "Barackalypse Now!" the US ecnomy is suffering.
Nope, no balls. You won't say who was President, will you?
Your uncle and the felon are old buddies, and your uncle is actually just a rent-a-cop.
And he owes money to the people who bought the gun in the end. So, they're the ones actually paying the rent.
The whole thing just boils down to your uncle yelling at you a bit, but you know that he can't do dick about it officially cause he'd have to explain how exactly did he lose the felon again.
And how his gun ended up on eBay.
Some people might think that he reported it lost so he and his buddies could sell it and pocket the money.
Stranger things have happened.
Using my husband's account....
Pakistan is a HO- "Oh you need to invade our neighbor - sure you can use our air bases just for give all the loans you gave us"
Oh you are tired of living in a cave in Afghanistan? ( here's our swiss bank account and the required amount) Come right in!!
Oh you want to see the downed US helecopter( Sure- how much do your want to pay us? Or can you help us with our Nuclear program( whatever their current priority is)...
Up for the highest bidders....But then their leadership has made some really good deals for their country---- Our Politicians can not even cooperate long enough to keep our AAA rating..maybe I need to re-think my citizenship and consider a bhurka.
The chopper was done in by a wall, and I think China has that technology covered. So they're protected from an attack by us.
to India. Let Pakistan chew on that prospect, if they think it's cool to harbor our arch enemies and give our secrets away to arch-enemies in the making.
And before some Poindexter points out, "but but but most of the supplies for our forces in Afghanistan pass through Pakistan!" I'll say it's high time to pull our forces out of that godforsaken place. We got bin Laden. The Taliban are reduced to one among many warlord factions. The status quo ante has been achieved. Miller time.
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
The NYT and BBC prefaced their stories with the qualifiers "probably" and "may have", while these disappeared from the Slashdot summary. The reports may well turn out to be true, but the summary is assigning a level of certainty about the claims that does not yet exist.
Acceptance of this sort of distortion seems to have become so routine in Slashdot's selection of story submissions, it sometimes feels a bit like reading the Daily Mail.
That would be seriously cool, if it were not for the fact that those two would cozy up with each other and take over their neighbouring country. By the way, they are already doing exactly that.
This sounds up like something that would be told only to backup an already made up story about Osama Bin Laden being killed this year. According to many sources, he was found dead already on 2001 (one source: http://www.rense.com/general93/laden.htm)
And who the heck cares about a downed stealth plane ? Why write so long arcticles about it? It's a god damn plane! At the same time, people are being murdered everyday abroad by the US Military. Yes, murdered, cold blooded, high tech killings. Women and children, innocent families, slaughtered in the name of Oil and Money, those which are the most holiest to the US of A, even surprassing human lives and the wellbeing of it's own citizens.
This is just something to get people arguing in the news again, giving them something to think about while the Army continues to ravage and kill innocent people just in the name of money and oil. And trying to provide more false background info, so that we would buy the false fact that Osama was killed this year, although no evidence has still surfaced about the body and it all just seems like a big scam!
GeoKone.NET
I haven't been following this story too closely, but surely the US would make a better effort to destroy their helicopter... unless it was a plant to misdirect China's stealth technology efforts. Why even use a stealth helicopter in this case?
You have to wonder how much longer the wars can go on, how much more money can be printed and how much longer will China support subsidizing USA at these levels. Vote the right way and have troops come home, stop money printing and inflation, stop the wars. Nobody, Democrat or Republican will help you. The only choice who will do the correct thing is obviously Ron Paul.
That's why they are scared.
You can't handle the truth.
On the other hand, if it was made of paper, it wouldn't be laying in the middle of Pakistan either.
Stealth-origami FTW
They're our friends! We need to up the payments to them so they know we mean it.
The Corporate states of America ran Russia out of money, now they're doing the same to US.
Long live the banksters! May they fly like the American flag, hanging from a pole.
The mind conceives, the body achieves, the spirit manifests.
probably, may have, and no direct source quoted...sounds like someone in the department of defense is trying to justify their budget.
Good people go to bed earlier.
Tongue in cheek.
"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
Because you believe in free speech, or just like correcting people?
Back in 1995, there was a news story on the major networks about the US giving Israel weapons which Israel would turn around and sell to the Chinese who would use them for their Silkworm missiles. Somehow, this investigation died in committee and was never brought up in the Senate for full debate.
Israel was questioned about their involvement, but they just gave a canned response, "Israel does not discuss its military workings on public forums," and that was the end of that story.
Just like the other night, I was watching CNBC's coverage of "The China Question." Regardless of the fact that the majority of the US population does not support giving money or weapons to our great ally Israel, the same story could be narrated as "The Israel Question", but somehow that story never makes it to public television.
BTW, I was actually shocked to find that Ronnie Reagan in his diary wrote that Ronnie thought that Shimir was an international thug. The only way that I can explain that is it must be disinformation to show that Ronnie was thinking of the average Joe!!
Israel and their jewish buddies in America, taking important position in government and industry. For example, Google, Facebook, Goldman Sachs....
Twitter: @dainsanefh
When you're "allies" with a country with 200 million pakis in it.
England?
Every legit system F-22, F-35, F-117, RAH-66 Comanche, J-20, ... gets plenty of 'exposure' before any kind of deployment, such is the length and nature of development today.
There is no system popping out of the blues from the 'skunk works' that isn't known well in advanced.
Hub cover on a tail rotor is significant advance in stealth tech? I don't think so.
I, for one, am happy that they screwed the US. Serves them right for their bloody hypocritical standards supporting a terrorist nation. Yes, I'm an Indian.
Fully agree!!! Since 9/11, they've been playing a double game, and both parties have been playing footsie w/ them. I fully credit BO for taking out Osama w/o telling them squat. If they in turn try to make life difficult for US operatives there, withdraw all of them, and for starters, destroy their nuke facilities in Balochistan and remove them from the list of nuke countries. Following that, a few nukes lobbied @ Islamabad, Karachi, Lahore, and other major cities should make them behave out of fear of the US. Since 9/11, despite Islamabad's claims that the terrorists were operating in their 'lawless wild west' and caves in Waziristan, fact remains that all the top al-Qaeda operatives who've been captured or killed have been hunted down in major cities. Abu Zubeida & Ramzi bin al Shibh in Karachi, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed in Rawalpindi or Faisalabad (I'm forgetting which for the time being) and Osama in Abbottabad. None of them had been nabbed even in Peshawar, which was said to be the center of all that activity, but actually ain't. If it was just a case of their being in Waziristan, all the drone attacks to date would have done it. They didn't! That's b'cos al Qaeda jihadis are all over Pakistan, not just in some caves near Waziristan. Nor is it restricted to the Pashtuns. I'd also argue that in addition to Pakistan, no Islamic country is trustworthy, or can be counted as an ally. The Karzai regime for instance, despite owning its survival to NATO troops, has clearly been playing footsie w/ the Taliban. Iraq is now a complete satellite state of Iran, like Syria is. About Saudi Barbaria and other countries in the peninsula, the less said, the better. Egypt is more likely than not to get a regime dominated by the Muslim Brotherhood, and if the Assad regime false, same thing will happen in Syria. In Libya, regardless of who wins that civil war, they too will have a jihadi regime. Start whatever programs are possible to get off their oil, which is essentially the biggest terrorism funding agent, and in parallel, start snapping ties w/ all of the Islamic world. You'd lose nothing - it's not the equivalent of not dealing w/ a Japan, a Korea, a China, a Britain, a Europe, et al. Once the OIC countries get the hint that the US is willing to fight its enemies (and I don't mean a war followed by namby-pamby-nation-building projects, just destroy and get the fuck out), you'll see terrorism go down in a tailspin. Also, do what's possible to restrict Muslim immigration to the West, and deport all Muslims caught plotting Jihad attacks, like the latest Fort Hoot attempt. That is what's needed for any administration that is serious about fighting terrorism.
The pakistanis only called the chinese to pick up the chopper because they thought it was theirs. After all there is "Made in China" all over it.
I disagree. It's not for nothing that China had been considered a superpower and had one of the 5 permanent seats in the UN throughout its history (although I never thought either the UK or France deserved to be there, just US, Soviet Union/Russia and China). China is a country that defeated India in 1962 and seized some of its territory: its power has only grown since. Until the 80s, military spending was their biggest item, and the economic boom since has only enabled them to throw even more money @ it (and it's not $500 toilet seats either). They have the full power to retake Taiwan if they wanted, and any of the islands in the South China Sea that are currently in dispute b/w China, Vietnam, Malaysia & the Philippines. And even during the Cold War, they weren't defensive vis a vis the Soviets @ all: Mongolia voluntarily put itself in the Soviet orbit b'cos they were scared of China overrunning them. On the above topic, China is discovering Pakistan to be a double-edged sword as an ally: on one hand, they're both allies against India, but on the other, most of the Uyghar separatists trying to secede Xinxiang from China have been training not only in Afghanistan, but in Pakistan as well. Maybe China can do what India or the US can't or won't respectively.
Does anyone really believe the Osama raid mythology along with the recent coverup as the rest of seal team 6 was killed off in an unrelated National Guard Chinook crash over Afghanistan?
Wow. Some guys say the heli debris might be faked, and even more assume they mean the whole raid was a setup too.
Seriously guys, the best lie is the half truth. What if the stealth helicopter accident comes down to a combination of proper counter-intelligence and a good alibi? I don't know whether the target actually was that but, hey it could.
>> {tongue and check}
Maybe he was just hungry and wanted it to go?
Atlas Shrugged : Thematic Story
america is not trying hard enough to make pakistan a more loyal ally.
That could actually be true .. :D
I sort of see the Pakistan government as the Han Solo of foreign governments. They'll gladly accept money and work with the empire.. the United States... but their heart lies with the rebels.
So many mods must be struggling with wanting to mod you up more but wanting to claw their eyes out at the "tongue and check" phrase in there.
"Those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - BenF
regardless, its a great comment.
The tongue in cheek part is that they were shocked...
Shift happens. Fire it up.
> China, which is a major investor in telecommunications, ports and infrastructure in the country.'"
Umm, more to the point, "China, which like Pakistan also has tense border relations with India."
Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.