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Environmental Enforcement Agents Targeting Guitars
tetrahedrassface writes "According to the Wall Street Journal, Federal agents again raided guitar maker Gibson this past week, seizing several pallets of wood and computer documents. At the heart of the issue is the wood that is being used in guitars and whether or not it comes from sustainable sources. The company insists it is being harassed and made to 'cry uncle' to the government's enforcement laws. The article notes that exotic fret and tone woods are protected in order to prevent the equivalent of 'blood diamond like trade,' but the ramifications now extend to guitar owners. If you play a vintage guitar, or a hand-built guitar made of old stock woods that were legally obtained years ago, you better not fly with it. John Thomas, a law professor at Quinnipiac University and a blues and ragtime guitarist, says, 'there's a lot of anxiety, and it's well justified.' Once upon a time, he would have taken one of his vintage guitars on his travels. Now, 'I don't go out of the country with a wooden guitar.'"
You know, now that the government has dealt with all of the environmental problems that are of greater scale and importance.
Innocent until proven guilty?
Burden of evidence on the accuser?
Hope you enjoyed the "War on Drugs". Seizure logic is now your new normal.
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
Here's the conversation on the Gibson forums if anyone is interested...
sysadmins and parents of newborns get the same amount of sleep.
Yup - because all transactions are reversible.
Everything is a luxury.
All markets are infinite.
Regulations are never ever ever corrections to the market. People are not part of the market.
Paranoia is a Survival Trait!
Seriously, this is absolutely ridiculous. Arresting someone, fining them, and taking their guitar because they can't trace every last component it's made of? Or fining someone $17,000 with clearly grandfather ivory keys (which everyone acknowledges are legitimate to own) simply because his paperwork was a little out of order? FFS, we wonder why our world is so fucked up when artists (some actually talented people) are forced to put up with shit like that. Hell, I bet taking a Stradivarius out of the country would probably get it "seized" and a major fine levied on you, simply because it would be absolutely impossible to trace all its components.
All this in the name of "environmentalism." Why the hell is a guitar or antique musical instrument even considered a piece of "flora or fauna" anyways? Are we gonna have to register cotton shirts next, to make sure slavery wasn't involved in the manufacture? As a bit of a musician myself (I play violin as a hobby), these sorts of things really piss me off. Laws shouldn't be created to force people to prove the legality of what they are carrying. Whatever happened to "innocent until proven guilty"? In this case, it looks like you need paperwork proving you're innocence or you are automatically guilty. Also, I don't think the wood used in guitars is a major contributor to deforestation. In fact, I think that ranks right down there as the least possible thing they could worry about. What's next, making sure pipes are made of sustainable sources of wood?
Sure, I know poaching of elephants is a major problem. This sort of BS isn't helping the cause any though.
"None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
With everything that's screwed up in this country, how did this bubble up to the top of the list?
My wife doesn't listen to me either...
It seems as if for years, you have been using the BanHammer of the Government to force others to comply with your agenda of increased control and profits. Now, that you have gotten what you asked for, why are you unhappy? The environmentalists are getting their agenda pushed by the government, just like yours. Why on Earth would you be surprised. Ohh that's right, you artsy types haven't heard of the law of unintended consequences. Congratulations, welcome to the club of people who realize Government interference in everything isn't a good thing. I hope you enjoy getting what you asked for.
Sincerely,
Everyone else.
One Token Ring to Rule them All, One Search Engine to Find Them, One WAN to bring them in, and TCP/IP Bind them...
I'm sure not.
So, are you telling me it's now easier to fly with a firearm than it is with an acoustic guitar?
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
Finally I understand what "underground music scene" means.
Fact: Suspected illegal materials seized from manufacturer.
Article speculation: guitars will be seized by Nazi enforcers from individuals.
Warning flag that article is inflammatory: use of "artsy do-gooders only too eager to tell others what kind of light bulbs they have to buy"
Let's ignore for a second that the government cares about how an Indian government interprets and Indian law for an American domestic manufacturer. Here's the utter stupidity...
If you have something like ivory or some rare wood, if you make the value of it next to nothing, legitimate businesses will have no incentive to have that resource conserved.
Let's say you are in some rainforest and you have this really rare tree that is valuable for its wood. If legitimate businesses can use it and it has value, you can find a way to harvest it and make sure more grows. If it has no value, you plow the thing over and grow some crops.
The same goes for different animal species as well.
Do you think elephants will stop being hunted because of ivory bans? If you allow a certain percentage of elephants to be culled, I'm pretty sure a group of people will make sure there are plenty of elephants.
Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
I love hearing left-wingers think that Richard Nixon is a right-winger because he has a "R" after his name.
Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
Hearts are in the right place. Brains are fused with anus' though. Douche-bags. So what? Now I have to get a stupid Carbon-Fiber guitar for travelling? Seriously, if some airport security dick took exception with one of my (new) wooden guitars. I'd probably smash it over their stupid face and spend a few decades in prison over it. I'm so tired of stupid people. The stupid, it burns!!
This seizure suit that I read was filed highlights one of the ways that they do an end run around the Constitution. The suit isn't "United States v Gibson Guitar Corporation", it's "United States v. Ebony Wood In Various Forms". They don't file suit against the legal entity, but they file suit against the property to be seized itself. Someone please explain to me how that's Constitutional, seeing that inanimate wood cannot defend against itself.
FC Closer
Nixon certainly was a right-winger. He may not have been a fascist like most of the current right-wingers, but he was definitely right-wing.
Fascists were left-wing. And in what universe are price and wage controls now 'right wing' policies? If Obama was proposing them people would be calling him a commy.
The feds claim against Gibson is not that they are using wood from non sustainable sources, as stated above. Gibson has clear documentation showing that it is.The feds maintain that the issue is that the wood was not "finished" by Indian workers, as (possibly) required by Indian law.
Incidentally, the Indian government is not involved.
I think most sensible people would agree that Gibson should have to prove the rare wood used in their factory was legally obtained.
No, people should expect the accuser to prove their accusation, not the defendant.
Science is all about firing a drunk pig out of a cannon just to see what happens.
This article is fear-mongering. Gibson is suspected of importing illegal goods (in this case, ebony, if the article is to be believed). The CEO of Gibson says they didn't do anything wrong. There is an investigation.
Note: There was never a musician stopped by US customs for travelling with an "illegal" instrument.
Furthermore, the article doesn't give even a moment's thought to why the wood Gibson is accused of using is illegal to import, and why the government agency is required to investigate.
There is no threat to musicians. End of story.
Since you are obviously expert enough in Constitutional law to believe this lawsuit is unconstitutional, it surprises me that you have never heard of in rem jurisdiction, which is one of the oldest concepts in Anglo-American common law and naval law.
Forget it - this is asset forfeiture. The feds already raided Gibson once, back in 2009. They took a lot of ebony, but never filed charges. Gibson is still fighting the asset forfeiture case, and the burden of proof is exactly wrong: Gibson must prove their innocence of any wrong-doing. The feds want to keep the stuff; it would be auctioned off, and they would get to keep the proceeds. One of the theories explaining this second raid is that the feds are pissed that Gibson hasn't just rolled over on the first case.
Asset forfeiture is perverse: you aren't charged with anything at all - your *property* is. The Gibson case is entitled "United States of America v. Ebony Wood in Various Forms". There is no presumption of innocence, because your property isn't a person, and anyway isn't being charged with a crime. The fact that this is naked theft is apparently beside the point - it is a very lucrative racket for law enforcement agencies at all levels.
Enjoy life! This is not a dress rehearsal.
If you have something like ivory or some rare wood, if you make the value of it next to nothing, legitimate businesses will have no incentive to have that resource conserved.
And how do you suggest you "make" the value of it next to nothing?
The reason there's a value for it: many guitarists think that (even running ti trough all those electronics and distortion) it makes for a better sounding guitar (Les Paul himself proved them all wrong, but that's a different matter.); therefore, there's a demand for that wood. Now since there's a demand, the Indians will sell it because they want and need the money.
Supply and Demand. Econ 101.
...legitimate businesses will have no incentive to have that resource conserved.
The only time I have ever heard of businesses wanting conservation are various N. American fishing industries. They figured out the hard way that unless they actively manage their resources, they'll end up out of business. And it's not just the fish they're after that they manage. Through the help of biologists, they actually understand that it's one big ecosystem and you CANNOT just preserve one species because they all work in harmony; which is something the logging industry fails repeatedly to understand - especially in Third World countries. It's a "slash and slash" mentality.
Once upon a time, sea otters off of the coast of California (Monterey Bay) were in demand for their fur - old rich biches like dead animals around their wrinkly necks. The population was decimated. So what?, ask the ignorant. Their just animals!
But sea otters LOVE sea urchins and because the sea urchins only predator was just about wiped out, the urchins reproduced like humans. So what?, asks the ignorant.
Sea urchins just LOVE kelp and they ate like pigs and destroyed the kelp forests. So what? asks the ignorant.
Fish mate and breed in those kelp forests and when the forests were destroyed, the fish stopped breeding. So what? asks the ignorant.
The fisheries collapsed and so did the fisherman, the canneries, the processors, the mechanics, the bankers, the investors, the maintenance workers, the tax base, and everyone else who made their lively hood on those stupid fish that owed the existence to those "stupid" sea otters.
Environmentalists see the big picture and they see that our very existence is dependent on the environment. People who exploit the environment cause us all physical harm one way or another.
Gibson is indirectly causing physical harm of the Indian people and should be punished for their ignorance and criminality.
CF Martin IV, a well-known contributor to Obama and the DNC, also makes guitars from Indian Rosewood, and is one of Gibson's main competitors in the acoustic guitar space.
The CEO of Gibson is a vocal republican running a non-union shop.
Gibson is being targeted. CF Martin is not.
You do the math.
The wood isn't illegal. India is protesting because they insist that the wood be processesed, in India, by Indian workers, before Gibson gets it. The state department is enforcing India's claim.
This isn't a matter of ecology, it's just business as usual.
To ensure perfect aim, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target
That wouldn't work, no "enviro-nazi" would dump that much carbon and other pollutants into the air. They'd probably bury it or send it to China or something.
Oh really? http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/ecoterrorism.asp
If you can't convince them, convict them.
Lagging behind? The issue here is a law that's two years old, stating that importers must abide by all of the laws of the country from which they are sourcing the materials. Sounds like a good idea on the face of it, but unfortunately, it's very much open to interpretation.
There are several problems here:
1. The government has confiscated over $1M of materials, *and not given a reason for it*
2. The government did the same thing two years ago re: Madagascar woods, and the trial is still dragging on due to government dragging its feet, missing deadlines, requesting stays, etc.
3. The government has claimed that *any* guitar sold by Gibson can be construed as obstruction of justice, and that this can be applied to the BUYER and the RETAILER. So, in other words, they've threatened criminal charges against anyone who buys a Gibson guitar. Because they have not stated a specific infraction, Gibson does not know which guitars this may apply to, and so must assume *all* of them.
4. Gibson assumes that this has to do with an Indian law stating that if any finishing work is done in India, that ALL finishing work must be done in India. Gibson buys half-finished fingerboard blanks from their Indian suppliers, but has all of the proper sign-offs and paperwork to show that this was approved by the government.
5. The government raided a factory using fully-armed SWAT team. This alone is a disturbing trend that must be stopped. They weren't raiding a pot house or a meth lab, they're raiding a guitar factory. Suits, pens and clipboards were much more appropriate than kevlar and automatic weapons.
Here's a video of the CEO talking about the raid. It's a bit long, but the guy seems genuinely baffled as to what could be the cause of the raid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_-taqM5Sk0
"I know that every word that man just said is true, because it's EXACTLY what I wanted to hear." -- Space Ghost
Ebony is one of the slowest growing woods in the world, and it's absolutely central to the incredibly fragile and unique Madagascar ecosystem. As long as there is a illegal market in it, somebody will have the incentive to permanently destroy that ecosystem. What's worse, too few will have the incentive to start sustainable ebony plantations. Somebody needs to close the loopholes, flash some badges and make the punishment hurt, or we will completely destroy Madagascar's forests before we transition to sustainable ebony. We need strict laws if we are to make the transition now.
I can understand why people complain about documentation regarding older instruments, but if there were no such requirement, anybody could just say "Oh, this guitar? Yeah, it's old, the laws don't apply to it!" - which would be a gigantic loophole. Authorities need to have the right to say "Prove that it's old". It sounds like this system needs streamlining, but it's absolutely right that we have it in place.
By the way, I own a bass guitar with an ebony fingerboard and I'm certainly not an opponent of musicians who want the finest instruments. But I'm also an environmentalist, and I don't want musicians to be responsible for destroying the third world that they never visit.
I'd suggest Importing, Exporting or Travelling with Musical Instruments for more more information about the restrictions that impact traveling musicians. While it's a bit UK centric, the CITES rules apply here too. As for the idea that the concerns here are just fear-mongering, try taking an older instrument made with ivory somewhere and watch how that turns out, as the most extreme example. Ebony isn't on the CITES list, but there's plenty of other materials appearing in many vintage guitars that are.
Price and wage controls, economic planning, progressive taxation, ceding individual property rights to the central government, no right to bear arms, comprehensive social welfare.
These some of the original cornerstones of fascist ideology. I fail to see how they square with the American right-wing (note that militarism, nationalism and etho-centrism, the other pillars of fascism, plague communist and socialist countries, also). In any event, early fascists called themselves both anti-marxist, anti-capitalist, and anti-clerical. That claim seems accurate; making most modern uses of "fascist" as an epithet ridiculous.
True, Obama hasn't lived up to what he promised, let alone what we hoped he'd do, but we're still better off.
With over a 9% unemployment rate (that's actually closer to 18%) I think there are millions of Americans who would disagree.
Ah yes. Blame everything on the current president. That always makes sense.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
The wood isn't illegal. India is protesting because they insist that the wood be processesed, in India, by Indian workers, before Gibson gets it. The state department is enforcing India's claim.
This isn't a matter of ecology, it's just business as usual.
I'm a semi-pro guitarist/musician. This stuff impacts me directly.
I actually called the Indian Embassy. They say they did not file any complaints to anyone about the rosewood, and do not support the raid on Gibson.
Further, the rosewood in question *is* finished into pre-cut & polished fingerboard slabs, was inspected & OK'd for export by Indian authorities, and for import by US Customs (Gibson ain't sneaking this stuff into the country in jungle-built subs, after all, like cocaine!).
AFAICT, Gibson is also the only major US guitar maker that's in a "right-to-work" state. Gibson has also contributed to Republican campaigns. All major US guitar makers that I know of use Indian rosewood and other CITES regulated materials, yet Gibson is the only maker that's been raided (twice since '09!) and had guitars and wood seized.
Gibson is in trouble because the DOJ, in it's infinite wisdom, thinks that the finished fretboard pieces they got from India, although they were deemed OK for export by India and OK'd for import by US Customs aren't, in the F&W's/DOJ's opinion, "finished enough" according to the *F&W'sDOJ's interpretation* of Indian export laws (NOT India's interpretation of THEIR OWN LAW!!...they filed no complaint and don't support the F&W's/DOJ's actions)...and therefor in violation of the amended-in-2008 Lacey Act despite all statements and evidence to the contrary, even from India.
The first raid on Gibson in '09, as far as I can determine, was based upon statements made by either F&W and/or the DOJ to a judge, asserting that they believed some portion/part of the chain-of-custody paperwork was forged, in order to obtain a warrant to raid & search Gibson facilities. So far, NO CHARGES have been filed regarding the '09 raid & seizure, and the DOJ has had the judge delay indefinitely any further court proceedings, leaving some $500K-$1M in guitars & materials seized from Gibson in limbo.
Not necessarily that *Gibson* forged, had forged, or knew of any forging of any documents (could have been any of the suppliers/warehousers/transporters in the chain), but according to the letter of the amended portion of the Lacey Act, *who* forged them, why, or who had knowledge of any irregularity was immaterial, and the Act as written didn't protect Gibson (or any other US company or individual) for criminal or civil liability for acts outside their knowledge or control...called "strict liability"...which was one of the things those opposed to passage of the amendment to the Lacey Act were against due to it's unfairness.
Here's just one example of Lacey Act injustice that put an innocent man in jail for 8 years!: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHvJ6ld_Mic
Here's a piece on the difficulties that individual musicians now face in traveling with guitars and other wood instruments because of CITES: http://www.fretboardjournal.com/features/magazine/guitar-lover%E2%80%99s-guide-cites-conservation-treaty
Here's a couple of links to Gibson regarding the raids:
http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Lifestyle/News/ceo-outrage-0826-2011/
http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Lifestyle/News/gibson-0825-2011/
I'm not against conservation at all. However, the jack-booted ham-handedness with which the laws are written, interpreted, and enforced should be an outrage to anyone.
Strat
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
Clark Foam, which made 85% of the foam blanks for all surfboards closed shop after years of pressure from the EPA and repeated raids/fines by CA and federal authorities. It was big deal at the time (2005):
http://www.surfermag.com/features/clarkfoam/
Back in 2005, the average price for a new surfboard jumped about 50% (~$400 to ~$600 a board) and that price hasn't come down on anything but generic shapes (i.e. Costco surfboards) since. Now our surfboard blanks are lower quality, come from companies in China, who have no qualms about dumping toxic chemicals into the environment, and they cost about the same because there is no competition other than a few colluding companies. A LOT of independent American surfboard shapers (aka small business owners) have been pushed out because they can't get blanks reliably in small numbers like they could directly from Clark in the past.
As I recall, when Clark shutdown he basically said he'd been dealing with these people (government authorities) for 30 years and couldn't continue to carry this industry on his shoulders or his bank account anymore. The US economy will suffer, likely forever, and we will lose art and innovation, but it wasn't his burden to carry alone. And he walked away. Probably surfing on a remote island paradise somewhere...
Exactly. If there is one thing I've learned from the internet, it is that nothing is Obama's fault.
To be more specific:
Everything bad about America today, during Obama's presidency, is Bush's fault.
Everything bad about America during Bush's presidency... was Bush's fault.
Everything bad about America during Clinton's presidency was also Bush's fault. He has a time machine.
Cthulhu in 2012. Why settle for the lesser evil?
Truth: If it's not one thing, it's another
And somehow this elite made the shipment go through 4 middlemen who magically happened to fill the customs paperwork in the way most likely to get the stuff through the respective customs while concealing the end customer for the goods. And magically, this elite made sure that the incriminating goods would end up in Gibson's warehouse. All that to incriminate an honest to god, republican-donating, bastion of American entrepreneurship.
Or maybe you believe that the most logical/efficient order procedure for Gibson is to get the goods ordered in India by a German company with an accidentally favorable incorrectly filled customs paperwork (labelling the boards as "finished musical instrument parts"), who would then sell it to a California wholeseller with a different set of accidentally favorable incorrectly filled customs paperwork (labelling the boards as "veneer"), who would in turn sell it to a person in Tennessee, who would finally sell it with the proper labelling to Gibson? That kind of procedure smells fishy, almost as if they were trying to throw somebody off a scent.