Environmental Enforcement Agents Targeting Guitars

tetrahedrassface writes "According to the Wall Street Journal, Federal agents again raided guitar maker Gibson this past week, seizing several pallets of wood and computer documents. At the heart of the issue is the wood that is being used in guitars and whether or not it comes from sustainable sources. The company insists it is being harassed and made to 'cry uncle' to the government's enforcement laws. The article notes that exotic fret and tone woods are protected in order to prevent the equivalent of 'blood diamond like trade,' but the ramifications now extend to guitar owners. If you play a vintage guitar, or a hand-built guitar made of old stock woods that were legally obtained years ago, you better not fly with it. John Thomas, a law professor at Quinnipiac University and a blues and ragtime guitarist, says, 'there's a lot of anxiety, and it's well justified.' Once upon a time, he would have taken one of his vintage guitars on his travels. Now, 'I don't go out of the country with a wooden guitar.'"

Comments

It's about time

[Nerdfest]

You know, now that the government has dealt with all of the environmental problems that are of greater scale and importance.

Re:It's about time

[Z00L00K]

As a side note - don't come to Sweden wearing shoes of crocodile skin or clothes of other endangered animals - even if it's inherited from your great grandmother.

Re:It's about time

[FatLittleMonkey]

Crocodiles are endangered?

Re:It's about time

[MightyMartian]

They sure are in Sweden!

Re:It's about time

[Anonymous Coward]

It's about time the EPA had its funding cut. There's nine billion that few would miss.

Re:It's about time

[MozeeToby]

I'd miss it. For every dollar that the EPA spends on stuff like this, or even on less frivolous but still apparently controversial things like protected rivers from over use, they spend dozens on things like keeping factories and power plants in check. Lets not forget what things were like before the EPA. CO2 and global warming would be the least of our problems without someone with the authority to prevent outright abuse of the ecosystem.

Re:It's about time

[Samantha Wright]

Hey, look at that. You're right.

Re:It's about time

[hellkyng]

The people living next to a little place called Rocky Flats might have a different opinion...

Re:It's about time

[bieber]

Because we all know that everything in life is a checklist you have to complete in descending order of importance.

Give me a break. There are unsolved murders in my city, but you know what? I still expect the cops to respond if I find my house has been broken into, even though they haven't solved all the problems of greater scale and importance. In real life, we can do more than one thing at a time, and "There are more important things to do" is not an excuse to put off every task in life that doesn't make it to the very top of the list.

Re:It's about time

[Rob the Bold]

It's about time the EPA had its funding cut. There's nine billion that few would miss.

Why not cut the Department of Defense or the the FAA instead? I suggest this because they have just as much to do with the Fish and Wildlife Service as the EPA.

In case I am being too subtle, the FWS is not part of the EPA. In fact the service predates the EPA by about 100 years.

Re:It's about time

[cryptographrix]

The EPA doesn't do anything about CO2 and global warming - they just regulate smoke stack scrubbers, which scrub out non-greenhouse gas emissions only (soot, etc)... Which means that the otherwise reflective cloud from the smoke stacks don't exist anymore and the greenhouse gases that are emitted are more effective at heating up the atmosphere. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_evaporation#Decreasing_Trend_of_Pan_Evaporation

Re:It's about time

[INT_QRK]

As the number of laws and regulations continue to grow exponentially, at some point we will all become violators of something. When we reach that critical mass it will become impossible to enforce everything without bringing society to a standstill. At that point, government authorities will be compelled to focus on deciding what to enforce and when, based primarily on perceived need to reign in those "loose cannons" who either make too much of a fuss, fail to tow the line, or beg to be made an example. If this seems just a tad paranoid, maybe it just because I'm feeling a little stabby today. No worries.

Re:It's about time

[jackbird]

The part you're omitting is the one where the streetlights had to be kept on 24 hours a day in Pittsburgh, and the river caught fire in Cleveland.

Re:It's about time

[Cinder6]

So, can we cut their "frivolous spending" budget?

Re:It's about time

[Matheus]

Sorry to be the one to tell you but...

We past that point a LONG LONG time ago.

Re:It's about time

[sycodon]

Can't have them factories producing more goods or the power plants generating more power, now can we?

Re:It's about time

[Vinegar Joe]

they spend dozens on things like keeping factories and power plants in check.

It sure would be nice to still have some factories.

Re:It's about time

[prgrmr]

fail to tow the line, \

Where do you think the government would like the line towed to?

Re:It's about time

[interkin3tic]

This is not a case of congress saying "You know what's easier than addressing climate change? Going after guitars!" This seems to be a case of law enforcement saying "We got our funding cut and need to make it up elsewhere. You didn't fill out form 1332b-54 with a number two pencil, so that's a $2,000 fine. Chief needs a raise."

Re:It's about time

[Ihmhi]

Yessir, I live in Newark, NJ and I am glad that they cleaned up the Passaic River and got rid of all of those other Superfund sites in the Garden State.

BRB, going for a swim with the three-eyed fishes.

Re:It's about time

[judoguy]

The whole point is that when everything is regulated to the point that the average Joe is a law breaker somewhere just living his life, then you can be singled out and prosecuted for something if some bureaucrat doesn't like your politics or race or religion or...

America has become a totalitarian state. "Everything in the State, nothing outside the State" Mussolini.

The fact that you can do a lot of stuff without asking the government for permission ignores the fact that everything you are doing is with the permission of the State or at least being ignored by the State for the moment. Permission is not the same thing as freedom.

Re:It's about time

[ravenshrike]

Or, in the case of Gibson, their politics. Martin uses the exact same wood through the exact same supplier but since they donate to the Democrat party they remain unraided.

Re:It's about time

[INT_QRK]

You expressed it a lot better than I did. What ever happend to the sentiment expressed in the 10th amendment, that "powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."? Note especially the word "delegated," which suggests that powers of government are vested by the people to the government to facilitate its ability to "establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence (sic), promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty." Sorry in advance to those who might take offense to what they will perceive as "right wing" rhetoric.

Re:It's about time

[obsess5]

Not to mention other countries that had or have no regulation - the Eastern European communist countries that turned out to be toxic dumps when opened to the West and let's not forget the London fog.

Re:It's about time

[Clock Nova]

". . . but since they donate to the Democratic party they remain unraided."

There. Fixed that for you.

Re:It's about time

[INT_QRK]

Out of sympathy and respect for those with cognitive disabilities that inhibit interpretation of non-literal speech, I will explain the concept of metaphorical speech. A metaphor is "a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable: “I had fallen through a trapdoor of depression,” said Mark, who was fond of theatrical metaphors | her poetry depends on suggestion and metaphor. a thing regarded as representative or symbolic of something else, esp. something abstract: the amounts of money being lost by the company were enough to make it a metaphor for an industry that was teetering" (New Oxford American Dictionary). Thus, when I employed the expression "tow the line" I meant "to conform to a rule or a standard." -- I hope this helps.

Re:It's about time

[operagost]

He means that the idiom you may have been looking for is "toe the line", which makes a lot more sense if you're trying to produce a metaphor for compliance. If I were towing the line, it sounds like an active effort to aid someone rather than meekly accede.

Re:It's about time

[operagost]

Lemme know if you find Jimmy Hoffa down there.

Re:It's about time

[Runaway1956]

And, I thought those racists in La Raza coined that phrase themselves. "For the Race, everything. Outside the Race, nothing."

Of course, it's not politically correct to mention that La Raza are a bunch of racist criminals. It's only correct to mention racism in reference to white people.

Re:It's about time

[INT_QRK]

Um, you're right. And now Mr. Knowitall will illustrate the term "irony" and the metaphor "eats crow."

Re:It's about time

[trout007]

Are you serious? Communist countries are PURE regulation. That is the point. The government controls everything.

Re:It's about time

[INT_QRK]

I'd miss it too. The EPA performs a valuable regulatory role. Like any other bureaucracy, it may occasionally gets out of hand. What well meaning human institution is immune from occasional excess, sloth, or stupidity? It would be nice to have an ability to conduct a rational discussion on government restraint without the extreme assertion that any such discussion means that one is against government per se, and therefore a "right wing extremist" during a Democratic administration, or "left wing extremism" during Republican administration by partisans in the opposite camp. Were in a very bad place at this point in our history. I hope we can get over it.

Re:It's about time

[GrumpySteen]

> What ever happend to the sentiment expressed in the 10th amendment, that "powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."?

Time passed, the world changed and the idea became increasingly irrelevant.

The constitution says nothing about:

The Internet. We would not have an internet if it wasn't for federal funding and involvement. Individual network providers would have acted exactly like the cell phone companies do... proprietary standards, locked down hardware, multi-year contracts with steep cancellation fees and ridiculous pricing for data, etc. etc.

Highways. We wouldn't have nearly as useful an interstate system. State roads would exist, but you'd have a hard time convincing the states between Miami and New York that they needed to spend funds on highways that allow people to bypass everything that could generate local revenue.

Aviation. Airlines would most likely base their operations in whichever state offered the lowest requirements for inspection and maintenance of their fleet. States would probably compete in offering the lowest requirements in order to get tax revenue from the ticket sales. Who cares how many people die as a result.

Automobiles. Read "Unsafe at Any Speed: The Designed-In Dangers of the American Automobile" by Ralph Nader. That's what you get without the federal Department of Transportation setting requirements.

Food and Drug regulation. Read Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle" sometime if you think the FDA isn't needed.

I could go on with dozens, if not hundreds, of examples.

Parroting the argument that everything not delegated to the federal government should be controlled by the individual states demonstrates a lack of understanding of how our world works.

The future our founding fathers envisioned in 1787 and wrote laws for isn't the future we got. We have many, many things they could never have imagined and the constitution simply does not give the federal government the ability address everything that needs to be addressed on a federal level in the modern world.

(and no, amendments are not the answer unless you want to hold a national election every month as we develop new technologies and new ways to use the technologies we have)

Re:It's about time

[INT_QRK]

I believe that certain concepts, however archaic by virtue of the passage of time, are worthy of continued consideration, such as the idea that powers vested in a government derive from the consent of the governed. Yes, we have TV now, as well as airplanes, trains and automobiles.That doesn't keep me from appreciating the wisdom and continued value in the Constitution any more than the Constitution prevents me from appreciating the public good of having an FDA, FAA, or EPA. "Parroting the argument," condescending as that phrase is no doubt meant to be, that the passage of time abrogates the value of the Constitution is one with which I disagree. The constitution provides a framework of delegated powers, and imposes constraints, checks and balances if you will, on government, which is necessary because any institution administered by humans is subject to abuse.

Re:It's about time

[Mister Transistor]

Yes, poster is right, most of the Eastern Bloc countries are toxic waste dumps now. In communist countries the gov controls everything that it gives a shit about. Unfortunately, what factories did with their waste and what people threw into rivers wasn't among those things.

Re:It's about time

[mrmeval]

Going after the 'low hanging fruits and nuts' is easier than going after someone who can challenge them or who has enough political power to kill their career or have them killed.

In many cases this is a bureaucrat looking for a raise and they will do so even if it imprisons or kills people who otherwise are of little notice like bass players.

"How many bass players does it take to change a light bulb?
One, but the guitar player has to show him how to do it. "

"How does a bass play cook chicken.
They never cook it they just play and the wings fly off all crispy and golden but they taste like bass."

Re:It's about time

[NormalVisual]

"How many bass players does it take to change a light bulb? One, but the guitar player has to show him how to do it. "

And the corollary:

"How many lead guitarists does it take to change a light bulb?"
"Just one. He holds the bulb in place and the world revolves around him."

Re:It's about time

[nedlohs]

> What ever happend to the sentiment expressed in the 10th amendment, that "powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."?

Time passed, the world changed and the idea became increasingly irrelevant.

So modify the consititution so it allows what you want, just ignoring it just means you no longer live in a country of laws. It's not like it has never been amended before.

The constitution says nothing about:

The Internet. We would not have an internet if it wasn't for federal funding and involvement. Individual network providers would have acted exactly like the cell phone companies do... proprietary standards, locked down hardware, multi-year contracts with steep cancellation fees and ridiculous pricing for data, etc. etc.

The consitution doesn't stop the Federal Governent from doing military research (such as that on the early internet). And signing up for cable internet does tend to have a contract (if you want a cheaper rate) - just like with a cell phone if you don't want a contract you just pay more.

Highways. We wouldn't have nearly as useful an interstate system. State roads would exist, but you'd have a hard time convincing the states between Miami and New York that they needed to spend funds on highways that allow people to bypass everything that could generate local revenue.

So what? Just because something is good or useful doesn't mean you break the law to do it. Again, just change the consitution to allow what you want if it is so important.

Aviation. Airlines would most likely base their operations in whichever state offered the lowest requirements for inspection and maintenance of their fleet. States would probably compete in offering the lowest requirements in order to get tax revenue from the ticket sales. Who cares how many people die as a result.

More likely the airlines would have to meet the highest standards of all the states they want to fly to or from. If Texans want to fy within Texas in planes that crash 2 out of 7 flights that's their choice.

Automobiles. Read "Unsafe at Any Speed: The Designed-In Dangers of the American Automobile" by Ralph Nader. That's what you get without the federal Department of Transportation setting requirements.

And yet other countries have all manage improve their driving safety by far more than the US, see Traffic Safety by Leonard Evans.

Food and Drug regulation. Read Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle" sometime if you think the FDA isn't needed.

I could go on with dozens, if not hundreds, of examples.

Parroting the argument that everything not delegated to the federal government should be controlled by the individual states demonstrates a lack of understanding of how our world works.

The future our founding fathers envisioned in 1787 and wrote laws for isn't the future we got. We have many, many things they could never have imagined and the constitution simply does not give the federal government the ability address everything that needs to be addressed on a federal level in the modern world.

(and no, amendments are not the answer unless you want to hold a national election every month as we develop new technologies and new ways to use the technologies we have)

So change the consitution. You may notice that mechanisms for changing it were included in the Consitution because the authors weren't stupid enough to think things would never change.

They were stupid enough to think that future Americans would actually stick with the rule of law and use those mechnisms rather than just proudly declaring that times have changed and the bits no longer liked should just be ignored. Well maybe "too optimistic" is a nicer way of putting it than "too stupd".

Re:It's about time

[TubeSteak]

Then we shouldn't have allowed the business class to move production to Asian and Mexico.
It could have been prevented, but we were told that information and service jobs would carry the USA into the future.

Re:It's about time

[TubeSteak]

Martin uses the exact same wood through the exact same supplier

[Citation Needed]

Nothing I've seen has mentioned that both companies use the same supplier.
I'd be interested in reading your source.

Re:It's about time

[ghostdoc]

When I was a kid reading Judge Dredd stories in 2000AD, this was one of the features of life in MegaCity1 that seemed so unbelievable back then: that everyone was guilty of something ('everyone's a perp") and if JD wanted to arrest someone, he could, all he had to do was find out what they were guilty of.

A while back I realised that I'm a law-abiding person with no criminal intentions, and yet I routinely break laws that could potentially see me arrested, fined, even imprisoned if the authorities decided to enforce the laws. All it would take is some bureaucrat or police officer to take an interest in me and my life would be ruined, which is a pretty scary thing.

For companies (at least here in Australia), it's the environmental laws and agencies that are having a similar effect. All it takes is a complaint from an anonymous member of the public and the business can be shut down, or restricted to the point where it is no longer economical. Recent examples:
- Long-standing pubs having their licences revoked because of complaints of noise from nearby residents who only recently moved in.
- Rural agricultural businesses being refused licences to operate because of 'smell'
and the mother of all examples recently: the shutting down of the entire live cattle export industry because of a TV report showing cruelty to the exported animals further down the processing chain.

It seems the same 'environmental' laws are being used in this case too, which is also a pretty scary thing.

Re:It's about time

[Kreigaffe]

Hah. The "smell" thing goes on here in the States, too.. but it's starting to get shot down like the bullshit it is.

Was happening here in PA, but recently a group from a new development were told to pound dirt when they tried to shut down a pre-existing pig farm bordering the development. If I recall I think the judge basically told them it's their fault for not doing their due diligence before buying the house.

Also used to be a lot of people complaining about, of all things, nature. They'd buy new houses bordering state game lands, and then complain that they could hear hunters shooting during hunting season, or they'd complain when they saw bears from their kitchen window.

Ugh, and then there's the wankers who moved into houses near the local gun club. To get to those houses, they have to drive past THREE SIGNS for the club -- it's impossible to not know there's a gun club *right there*. So they move in, and complain because oh gosh, people start shooting guns at 9am and ohhh nooo it's looouud. Give me a break. Move into the house you want, don't move into a house and force your neighbors to become the neighbors you want.

Friggin douches.

Fortunately they are getting less and less traction with these antics lately. The US is still crazy and over-litigious, but damn is it better than it was in the 90s.

Re:It's about time

[Thing 1]

Apart from the requisite citation, I wanted to add: "citizen raid!" Same thing as citizen arrest, just now with federal agencies being impersonated! If you can't convince the feds to bust Martin, picket.

Re:It's about time

[ChrisMaple]

The EPA is unnecessary, and inevitably it has become a political plaything for people who want to control others. If an entity causes provable damage, you notify them and demand recompense; if they don't pay, you sue.

Re:It's about time

[zippthorne]

When you clean up a superfund site, where does all the stuff go?

Re:It's about time

[doccus]

Actually, i always thought Gibson was *very* environmentally conscientious.. But you know what.. when people start going without food or are otherwise disinherited in order to make a fucking tree happy.. i feel like puking ;-(

Re:It's about time

[ppanon]

Democrat is a singular noun whereas Republican can either be a singular noun or an adjective. I know the Republicans wish the Democrats were a party of one but...

Re:It's about time

[Ihmhi]

Apparently, New Jersey.

Re:It's about time

[Builder]

A significant percentage of all UK citizens already are law breakers. It's against the law to format shift here (rip a CD to mp3 for example) yet millions of people here own mp3 players.

Re:It's about time

[Maritz]

Another I heard years back... How many guitarists/light bulb etc - six, one to change the bulb, five to stand in the audience and say "I can do that.".

Re:It's about time

[Creepy]

A significant percentage of all UK citizens already are law breakers. It's against the law to format shift here (rip a CD to mp3 for example) yet millions of people here own mp3 players.

There technically is no such thing as format shift under copyright law in the US, which was designed for written works (and nothing else), but due to copyright law being applied to other media types, a judge ruled that archival copies can be in different formats than the original (so format shifting is allowed - section 117 of the copyright code doesn't specify). Still, it is only supposed to be a single archival copy, made by the owner, and transferred to any other copyright holder with the work, so ripping to a computer and then copying to an mp3 player is definitely a violation, unless you destroy the original media or the copy on computer. To further confuse the issue, it is explicitly forbidden by the DMCA to decrypt encrypted data despite being allowed to create said backup in any format we desire, so there is no legal way to, say, copy a DVD that is encrypted and/or copy protected. We also are not allowed to play or share any particular media with anyone else, but we can transfer the license to them. Playing a CD loudly enough so that others can hear? Illegal by copyright law*. Watch a DVD with loved ones? Also illegal by copyright law* (both are single user licenses).

The law makes a lot more sense when applied to written works than other media. For instance, I own a book. I can lend, give, or sell the book to you, transferring the license to you for a time. You can then lend, give, or sell the book back to me, transferring the license back. Also the owner can copy the book for archival (backup) purposes. In lending a license you own the license for a specific period of time, and then the license transfers back to the owner, whether they have the physical media back or not. Incidentally, an overdue library book is a form of copyright violation.

* Fair use, however, does allow us to watch DVDs, listen to music, etc. with others, but is ambiguous and up to a judge to decide if a violation occurred and the copyright holder to prosecute. Copyright holders tend to be litigious even when they have no chance under fair use. Fair use came into play more because of other types of media being used with copyright protection, but does to some extent apply to written works, if they are, say, shared by a family.

LAND OF THE FREE?

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

Innocent until proven guilty?
Burden of evidence on the accuser?

Hope you enjoyed the "War on Drugs". Seizure logic is now your new normal.

Re:LAND OF THE FREE?

[Kenja]

Proof of guilt is why they gather evidence.

Re:LAND OF THE FREE?

[trum4n]

Shutting down an American company is helping no one. They will build them in Mexico if this keeps up. Then what? American history and jobs are at stake.

Re:LAND OF THE FREE?

[0123456]

Shutting down an American company is helping no one. They will build them in Mexico if this keeps up.

So rather than 'no one' it would definitely seem to be helping Mexicans.

I'm sure that foreign CEOs cry themselves to sleep when they see the US government shutting down US companies to 'save the environment'.

Actually, maybe they do; with tears of laughter.

Re:LAND OF THE FREE?

[RKThoadan]

I believe the point is that it should be the states responsibility to prove that the guitar is made with illegally harvested wood, not my responsibility to prove that it isn't. For the most part, customs/immigration has never really operated on any kind of presumption of innocence and the current climate isn't likely to make that any better.

Re:LAND OF THE FREE?

[sunderland56]

Building guitars in Mexico would be pointless - to sell them in the USA, they would still need to cross the border, and so would be subject to the same import regulations, and so would still need to have the correct paperwork filled out.

Re:LAND OF THE FREE?

[tonywong]

It is even more screwed up than what the summary implies.

This isn't even a compliance issue. The U.S. government objects to the importation of unfinished wood (raw imports), while Gibson has imported finished wood from India. However, the U.S. contends that the wood is not finished ENOUGH, although the Indian government is quite satisfied with the paperwork on their end (no objection and considers the wood properly finished).

So although all the paperwork is technically in order, the US government is on a massive fishing expedition to force Gibson into 'compliance' even though they haven't broken any laws.
Indian article here:
http://m.timesofindia.com/PDATOI/articleshow/9756435.cms

This reminds me of the way the government has sent those mortgage liars to jail:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/26/business/26nocera.html

Pop the little guys because all the big fish are too hard to catch. Government at work for you.

Re:LAND OF THE FREE?

[postbigbang]

There are loads of guitars built in Mexico, the imported into the USA. The exotic woods used by guitar makers cause deforestation in sensitive areas.

But the advice of not bringing your old guitar back into the company after a trip is total bullshit and a scare tactic to defend Gibson (maybe Fender, Taylor, and others, too). They should be ashamed.

Re:LAND OF THE FREE?

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

That's OK. Keep this going and - of course - there will be no American market to afford such things. Big business has already planned thing along these lines, for some time now.

There are new, Asian middle-classes to exploit, for a couple of decades. It's called "Corporate Crop Rotation". It keeps populations insecure and dependent, rather than empowered and questioning.

Meanwhile, we can play on ANYTHING!
http://www.cigarboxnation.com/photo/pizzicasso-bass-1

Re:LAND OF THE FREE?

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

To whom. Under what circumstance?

Import tariffs were the principal source of US Federal revenues until the early 20th century. These were supplanted by Fiat Currency and Income Taxes.

Income was replaced by DEBT.

But, you'd rather be a slave in Nike's with a Samsung TV, than free?

Re:LAND OF THE FREE?

[PortHaven]

Yes, but it's a lot easier to bribe a Mexican official to give a record of properly imported wood.

Re:LAND OF THE FREE?

[Jmc23]

Are you seriously tring to compare mexican guitars to gibsons? You obviously know nothing of guitar construction in mexico.

Re:LAND OF THE FREE?

[postbigbang]

I know guitar construction very well, and I know the nature of the woods and construction techniques. I'm not comparing quality, but I am comparing bills of materials, and you'd be surprised. Ask Gibson, ask Fender-- if they'll tell you.

Re:LAND OF THE FREE?

[edremy]

Yeah, it's an unfair comparison. Made in Mexico (MIM) Fenders have far better quality control than current USA Gibsons.

Re:LAND OF THE FREE?

[operagost]

I think the issue that most Slashdotters can agree on pertains to the de facto permanent seizure of property in investigations. Perhaps we need a habeas corpus for property, because God knows that anything that isn't spelled out in law is considered perfectly OK for the government to abuse-- and anything that is, is still pretty much up for debate.

Re:LAND OF THE FREE?

[rk]

Hell, I think the Mexican Fenders may be better than the USA Fenders in some cases. I bought a new Fender Tele Thinline in 2007 and it was right next to a custom Tele from the USA shop and it sounded better, played better, and cost about 800 dollars less. Perhaps it was a statistical outlier, but I love that freaking guitar.

Re:LAND OF THE FREE?

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

They do short-term extraction, without regard to the continued life of the host.

They burn down one market to inflate the opportunity to exploit another.

Re:LAND OF THE FREE?

[IrquiM]

Land of the free doesn't mean you can do anything you like. It meant you could do it, as long as it wasn't harmfull to others!

Re:LAND OF THE FREE?

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

Well. I don't think I can be construed as an advocate for "do whatever you want".

I hold the various regulatory and enforcement agencies to that same standard.

Re:LAND OF THE FREE?

[uninformedLuddite]

I assure you that some of the best classical guitars I have seen were hand made in Mexico

Re:LAND OF THE FREE?

[Jmc23]

I was refering to materials not craftmanship. I know some luthiers here and while they have some nice guitars they can be less than 100% honest with their materials. Mexico has some nice wood that can pass dor same type from other parts of the world but not exactly the same species.

Re:LAND OF THE FREE?

[uninformedLuddite]

My bad, sorry. One of my friends has a beautiful example (cost him in excess of $60K) and it is without doubt the finest instrument I have personally played. On a lighter note he plays it in the toilet as it is the room with the best acoustics in his house. It's funny how the acoustic performance of toilets seems to be better than that of loungs rooms!

Re:LAND OF THE FREE?

[Jmc23]

No, prob, I wasn't clear but thought it was implied given the discussion was about materials.

Aas for bathrooms, I think it's the tiles. Every house here is pretty much tile and concrete and I have to admit even my Paracho plywood top sounds good in these houses.

Dwight, is that you?

[Shoten]

I thought Matthew Broderick already took care of these guys years ago? Did they get out of prison?

An example to all

[DigiShaman]

You know, if I was an enviro-nazi, I would demand all citizens with wooden guitars have their piece audited. If it fails the test, we shred the wood and put them into a giant pile. And the end, we burn the wood in a giant bonfire. And just like the Nazis, they too are oppressive AND stupid. Fuck them, and fuck all of you that vote these fuckers into office.

Re:An example to all

[sourcerror]

Finally I understand what "underground music scene" means.

Re:An example to all

[Co0Ps]

"fuck all of you that vote these fuckers into office"

This argument feels kind of empty in a country with two parties that both suck.

Re:An example to all

[Thelasko]

I would demand all citizens with wooden guitars have their piece audited. If it fails the test, we shred the wood and put them into a giant pile. And the end, we burn the wood in a giant bonfire.

Right! What are they going to do with the seized wood? They can't make trees out of it! I understand going after a major guitar manufacturer, as their supply chain has a direct impact on the harvest of endangered species. However, if a guitar is already sold, and in the hands of the consumer, seizing it has no impact on the harvest of endangered wood.

Re:An example to all

[Verdatum]

Heh, use it to build bird houses.

Re:An example to all

[INT_QRK]

Yea, verily.

Re:An example to all

[joebok]

Well, after my initial outrage, I got to thinking a bit about it. I have a banjo with an ebony fretboard. When I was looking to buy it, I definitely wanted that ebony fretboard. It did not even enter my consciousness to think about the environmental impact of it - I mean, one little fretboard? I'm not making a house or even a chair out of endangered wood!

But surely, all those guitars and banjos and other instruments would take a toll in total. There is an undeniable demand - it isn't hard to imagine that those pressures could lead to unsavory practices.

On the whole, it seems pretty heavy-handed to me. The burden of proving the "innocence" of an instrument seems ludicrous - yet if I ever decide to get a new banjo, I think that I will inquire more closely as to the source of materials and it will make a difference to me if a maker can assure me they are participating in sustainable practices.

Re:An example to all

[INT_QRK]

"The great tragedy in science -- a beautiful hypothesis, slain by an ugly fact!" (Huxley)...or put another way, same manure, different flies.

Re:An example to all

[i kan reed]

I can't believe this got modded up. What argument are you making against what actually happened instead of your persecution fantasies?

Re:An example to all

[Cinder6]

That wouldn't work, no "enviro-nazi" would dump that much carbon and other pollutants into the air. They'd probably bury it or send it to China or something.

Oh really? http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/ecoterrorism.asp

Re:An example to all

[Coren22]

According to the Wikipedia page, African ebony is endangered, Indian ebony is not. This isn't about endangered species, but about an Indian law stating that the items must be entirely finished in India.

Re:An example to all

[unitron]

Actually, since seizing it leaves the owner needing to replace it, it increases the chance of the wrong wood being harvested to fill the demand.

Re:An example to all

[Yamioni]

Fuck them, and fuck all of you that vote these fuckers into office.

The sad state of things is that the people we vote for aren't the people that get put into office, even if their name is the same...

Gibson Forums

[cultiv8]

Here's the conversation on the Gibson forums if anyone is interested...

Re:Gibson Forums

[EvilAlphonso]

Not mentioned on the forums:

• The wood was 10mm boards declared as 6mm veneer to clear customs in the US. Veneer is peeled with minimal waste, boards are sawed with large waste (kerf + parts of the trunks with not enough material for full boards). 6mm veneer of the species in question is legal to import, 10mm boards aren't due to Lacey act.
• The export declaration for Indian customs stated that the shipment was finished parts of musical instruments instead of raw material. The finished parts are perfectly legal to ship, the raw material in the form of 10mm boards isn't (anything above 6mm veneer is illegal to export).
• Gibson tried to conceal both the destination and the source of the shipment by going through several several middlemen (one AG in Germany, one company in California, one person in Tennessee).
• The shipment was caught by customs when entering the US, then released to find out who was the final consignee of the wood.

For more info: The Affidavit (PDF warning).

Re:Gibson Forums

[operagost]

Sorry I don't have mod points. I was going to defend Gibson in this, but if this affidavit is correct it looks like someone screwed up.

Re:Gibson Forums

[Freddybear]

That documents the allegations which resulted in the original search warrant. Now, what did the Feds actually seize from Gibson, and why haven't any charges been filed? They've been stonewalling over that for two years.

Re:Gibson Forums

[rubycodez]

come on, I've seen affidavit that says there are millions of infringing lines of SCO owned code in Linux.

Re:Gibson Forums

[EvilAlphonso]

No, that documents what happened this year. Check the dates in the affidavit, the shipment was caught in June 2011. What we have here is a repeat offender who complains he was targeted for political reasons when an shipment without any official connection to him got caught and followed back to him.

Jetting off to work, more on this later

Re:Gibson Forums

[Freddybear]

Ah, I see. Yes, it's the affidavit for the second search warrant. But it's still just the search warrant. What did they actually seize and why haven't there been any charges filed from the first raid?

Re:Gibson Forums

[Cassini2]

Somehow, I don't think the government of India cares about the difference between 6 mm and 10 mm boards. Officially, the Indian government bans all exports of HS 4407 wood, but it is trivial to find companies that ship wood outside of India. It is likely that when the regulation was written, the prospect of a small volume wood purchaser was not considered by the Indian government.

The only reason why US Customs cares about this is that someone is encouraging this investigation, as no US laws are being violated. This is the big problem of the Lacey act. It makes no allowance for foreign regulations that are not being enforced. Additionally, the Lacey act does not calibrate the penalties with what would be considered reasonable penalties in the country where the regulations were written. By the terms of the Lacey act, having sex with your girlfriend while on vacation could result in a 20 year prison sentence.

Re:Gibson Forums

[EvilAlphonso]

Somehow, I don't think the government of India cares about the difference between 6 mm and 10 mm boards. Officially, the Indian government bans all exports of HS 4407 wood, but it is trivial to find companies that ship wood outside of India. It is likely that when the regulation was written, the prospect of a small volume wood purchaser was not considered by the Indian government.

Then why did Gibson go through such a convoluted delivery route with so much incorrectly filled paperwork? I mean, if they don't care and it is trivial, why take the risk to lie on the customs declaration?

By the terms of the Lacey act, having sex with your girlfriend while on vacation could result in a 20 year prison sentence.

In this case, it would be "your underage girlfriend carrying fake ID you made " for the analogy to work.

Re:Gibson Forums

[Cassini2]

Then why did Gibson go through such a convoluted delivery route with so much incorrectly filled paperwork? I mean, if they don't care and it is trivial, why take the risk to lie on the customs declaration?

For an international shipment, the routing presented, and its issues, are standard. It is very rare for shipments to be sufficiently large that only one shipping company is involved. Generally, small shipments involve a specialised exporter, a shipping company, and a specialised importer. UPS shipments from the US to Canada often involve 4 parties: exporter (vendor), UPS, UPS Customer Brokers, and importer (customer). Even with experienced shippers, about 1 shipment in 4 is misclassified by the broker.

By the terms of the Lacey act, having sex with your girlfriend while on vacation could result in a 20 year prison sentence.

In this case, it would be "your underage girlfriend carrying fake ID you made " for the analogy to work.

Abu Dhabi - Great beaches. Don't kiss your girlfriend on them, and be sure to file the hotel paperwork correctly.

Fornication and adultery is illegal in many locations all over the world, including in Wisconsin. The Lacey act makes it a felony punishable by 20 years in prison.

Re:Gibson Forums

[EvilAlphonso]

For an international shipment, the routing presented, and its issues, are standard. It is very rare for shipments to be sufficiently large that only one shipping company is involved. Generally, small shipments involve a specialised exporter, a shipping company, and a specialised importer. UPS shipments from the US to Canada often involve 4 parties: exporter (vendor), UPS, UPS Customer Brokers, and importer (customer). Even with experienced shippers, about 1 shipment in 4 is misclassified by the broker.

Even if it was the case in this instance, which I don't believe, why would they lie about the content of the parcel if it was perfectly "legal and trivial"? Why would a company take the risk to mislabel goods knowing that they would would get investigated and fined when caught? Especially after being raided a previous time and thus probably kept under watch?

In this case we have vendor in India, transporter, customs broker with goods mislabeled to clear Indian export customs, company in Germany, transporter, customs broker with the same goods mislabeled to clear US import customs, customer in California, transporter, customer in Tennessee, transporter with properly labelled goods, Gibson. We're talking about 1250 boards, not a couple of boards. Why would a profit-seeking company use so many in-betweens, each taking a commission that will eat in its profit margin, when it could "legally and trivially" order the 1250 boards directly from a supplier in India?

Re:Guilty until proven innocent

[Aladrin]

Because you're entering another country and their rules are taking effect? Is it really that hard to see?

Re:Big Deal over nothing.

[imric]

Yup - because all transactions are reversible.

Everything is a luxury.

All markets are infinite.

Regulations are never ever ever corrections to the market. People are not part of the market.

This is why environmentalism has a bad name

[Baloroth]

Seriously, this is absolutely ridiculous. Arresting someone, fining them, and taking their guitar because they can't trace every last component it's made of? Or fining someone $17,000 with clearly grandfather ivory keys (which everyone acknowledges are legitimate to own) simply because his paperwork was a little out of order? FFS, we wonder why our world is so fucked up when artists (some actually talented people) are forced to put up with shit like that. Hell, I bet taking a Stradivarius out of the country would probably get it "seized" and a major fine levied on you, simply because it would be absolutely impossible to trace all its components.

All this in the name of "environmentalism." Why the hell is a guitar or antique musical instrument even considered a piece of "flora or fauna" anyways? Are we gonna have to register cotton shirts next, to make sure slavery wasn't involved in the manufacture? As a bit of a musician myself (I play violin as a hobby), these sorts of things really piss me off. Laws shouldn't be created to force people to prove the legality of what they are carrying. Whatever happened to "innocent until proven guilty"? In this case, it looks like you need paperwork proving you're innocence or you are automatically guilty. Also, I don't think the wood used in guitars is a major contributor to deforestation. In fact, I think that ranks right down there as the least possible thing they could worry about. What's next, making sure pipes are made of sustainable sources of wood?

Sure, I know poaching of elephants is a major problem. This sort of BS isn't helping the cause any though.

Re:This is why environmentalism has a bad name

[0123456]

FFS, we wonder why our world is so fucked up when artists (some actually talented people) are forced to put up with shit like that.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't many of the most famous musical 'artists' been demanding that we must 'do something' for the environment for decades now?

Well, now we're doing something, and they should be happy.

Re:This is why environmentalism has a bad name

[Anonymous Coward]

Pianos are impounded at the border. If you have a vintage piano with Ivory keys, customs steals the keys at the border.
It should be a crime to destroy antiques that way.

Incidentally, customs doesn't know for sure which piano keys are made from Ivory, so they mess up a few extra pianos just to be sure ...

Re:This is why environmentalism has a bad name

[MozeeToby]

They said "do something to help the environment" not "do something that make it look like your helping the environment without actually producing any measurable benefit". Is there an phrase equivalent to security theater for environmentalism? Greenwashing maybe?

Re:This is why environmentalism has a bad name

[LocalH]

The rest of the world has their share of retardedness. Don't blindly hate the US without taking a look at your country's closeted skeletons.

Re:This is why environmentalism has a bad name

[GameboyRMH]

This isn't greenwashing, greenwashing is advertising a product as green when it isn't. You could call it environmentalism theater.

Re:This is why environmentalism has a bad name

[Anonymous Coward]

Or fining someone $17,000 with clearly grandfather ivory keys (which everyone acknowledges are legitimate to own) simply because his paperwork was a little out of order?

Saying that the guy had his paperwork "a little out of order" is disingenuous. The person in question was trying to import 11 pianos, and had declared that there was no Ivory on them. However, that was only true because he had removed the Ivory keys and hidden them in his luggage, where they were uncovered by customs inspectors. And not only that, his company had asked officials about the importation requirements prior to this, so he clearly knew what he was doing, and was caught red-handed.

http://www.justice.gov/usao/gan/press/2011/03-09-11.html

Re:This is why environmentalism has a bad name

[Baloroth]

Yeah, the same musical artists like, say, Bono, who had his favorite hat flown thousands of miles at thousands of dollars of cost. There are other examples, such as a band that used a jet plane, a massive tour bus, and then a helicopter to get to a show. Though I'm talking about actually talented musicians (zing!) who definitely are concerned with their musical instruments being top notch. And frankly, even if that uses non-sustainable wood, I think the environmental impact there is... minimal, to say the least. As in, a single forest fire probably does more damage than all of them put together.

Now, the waste that other 'artists' produce is ridiculous, but that's true for most (all?) celebrities. But the wood in their musical instruments? Could environmentalists make themselves into even more of a joke? (That's rhetorical: the answer is, of course, a resounding yes.)

Re:This is why environmentalism has a bad name

[Have Brain Will Rent]

, we wonder why our world is so fucked up when artists (some actually talented people) are forced to put up with shit like that.

Nope, it isn't fucked up because artists are treated like that - it is fucked up because we are all treated like that in various and sundry ways. IMHO that's a very important distinction. I do agree with you about the "innocent until..." though.

Re:This is why environmentalism has a bad name

[AmiMoJo]

All this in the name of "environmentalism."

This is no more to do with environmentalism than banning tooth picks is to do with health and safety, or re-naming the British sausage an "emulsified high-fat offal tube" is to do with the EU. Just because some idiot said it does that doesn't make it true. If you disagree then I'm claiming that Chernobyl was in the name of the pro-nuclear lobby.

I think you confused environmentalism with wildlife protection anyway.

Re:This is why environmentalism has a bad name

[camperdave]

Laws and logic do not apply at border crossings. I was on a trip where someone brought an orange into Michigan. It was confiscated to prevent the spread of possible orange viruses (into the vast Michigan orange groves). The border guard didn't treat it like biohazardous waste. He simply tossed it in the trash.

Re:This is why environmentalism has a bad name

[Baloroth]

You're quite right, it doesn't really have anything to do with environmentalism. But it's pushed for by the environmentalists and in the same laws and is *supposed* to be to protect the environment. Whether the people saying so are idiots or not, it's still going to give environmentalism a bad name(sustainable foresting is environmentalism, and it's good. Confiscating guitars because they aren't made of sustainable wood? Bad).

And some of the points in the article (such as those dealing with ivory) have to deal with wildlife protection, but the confiscation of the wood doesn't. And wildlife protection is environmentalism anyways (just less about global warming and more about preservation of existing species. The first also helps the second.) Point is, even so it is ridiculous to fine someone for owning antique ivory piano keys because their paperwork is out of order.

Re:This is why environmentalism has a bad name

[jo42]

Just wait until you have to start paying an environmental fee for farting. Watch out when peanut brained Republicantards get a hold of this idear...

Re:This is why environmentalism has a bad name

[WelshRarebit]

How dare you bring "facts" to yet another slashdot anti-enviromental hit job?

Re:This is why environmentalism has a bad name

[onkelonkel]

"emulsified high-fat offal tube" - see, this is why they don't let you write commercials any more.

Re:This is why environmentalism has a bad name

[Anomalyst]

This isn't greenwashing, greenwashing is advertising a product as green when it isn't. You could call it environmentalism theater.

More like vaudeville than legitimate theater.

Seriously...

[CPNABEND]

With everything that's screwed up in this country, how did this bubble up to the top of the list?

Re:Seriously...

[DigiShaman]

Low hanging fruit. It's a risk free action that yields results of said policy and justifies their existence to continue their nazi activities. Basically, the same reasons that the SWAT team goes after a pimply faced script kiddie with a gun pointed to the back of his head point-blank. Ya, tough guys! Rawwwrrrrr!!!

Re:Seriously...

[bjourne]

Maybe you don't think it is a big deal if the Brazilian Rosewood tree goes extinct, others think it is. Rosewood is used in high-end guitars, that are extremely sough after by collectors because almost no guitars are made using it anymore. If they are found out to have been using Rosewood harvested after 1992, then that is a very serious crime.

Re:Seriously...

[Script Cat]

Rose wood is contraband. As such any illicit grow operations must be shut down and the contraband destroyed.

Re:Seriously...

[Taty'sEyes]

It isn't Brazilian Rosewood that is in question here, but rather Madagascar Ebony and Rosewood.

Re:Guilty until proven innocent

[Issarlk]

Because the rules inside borders are lagging behind.

Dear Music Industry

[anlprb]

It seems as if for years, you have been using the BanHammer of the Government to force others to comply with your agenda of increased control and profits. Now, that you have gotten what you asked for, why are you unhappy? The environmentalists are getting their agenda pushed by the government, just like yours. Why on Earth would you be surprised. Ohh that's right, you artsy types haven't heard of the law of unintended consequences. Congratulations, welcome to the club of people who realize Government interference in everything isn't a good thing. I hope you enjoy getting what you asked for.

Sincerely,
Everyone else.

Re:Dear Music Industry

[btalbot]

Gibson isn't a record label. They make guitars.

Re:Dear Music Industry

[avandesande]

The implication I got from the OP is that a company like Gibson is an Icon for many artist types and they will be upset about Gibson being targeted this way.

Re:Dear Music Industry

[Kielistic]

Have you listened to the top 40 the music industry pushes? I think it's safe to say they're not too worried about guitars being banned. There's no wood in autotune.

Re:Dear Music Industry

[unitron]

If Gibson hadn't made the Les Paul popular, or if the Les Paul hadn't made Gibson popular, but anyway, if the Les Paul guitar wasn't a popular guitar, nobody would want to make Les Paul shaped video game controllers because there wouldn't be any particular demand for them. Therefore the Les Paul shape, the thing that, when your eyes see it, your brain thinks Les Paul, has a commecial value, which Gibson has a legal right to profit from, and others do not have a legal right to profit from if they don't license the use of that shape from Gibson.

Re:Dear Music Industry

[Maritz]

I don't think the 'you' that you're addressing really exists. Gibson and the 'music industry' as well as 'artsy types'..? Shoving a round peg into a 'small government' shaped hole..?

Re:Guilty until proven innocent

[Immostlyharmless]

Cause you might be an illegal, or al-queda, or worse. It's the whole locking down of the country thing after 9/11, our rights got trampled on so badly after that occurred it was crazy. Granted, we were slowly losing them prior to that, but after 9/11 we flew our flags and talked crap about how much they hated us for our rights, and then we turned around a few months later and gave them all away. It's why the border is so screwed up, it used to be they were looking for illegals and drugs, now they are looking for anything JUST BECAUSE THEY CAN. It used to be I could drive to Disneyland on I-10 only stopping for potty breaks. Now I have to stop 3 times between Phoenix and LA for random armed thug visual searches of my vehicle. (FUCK YOU BORDER PATROL!) It used to be you could get on a plane and had to have your baggage checked and walk through a metal detector, now they want to virtually strip search you and/or grope you in addition to the rest.

Not going to blame it on either party because they've both had a hand in implementing crap that have stripped us of our rights, but I will say that I'm extremely disappointed that the current administration hasn't done a single thing to roll back some of the draconian measures implemented under the previous admin. It sucks knowing my only power is that of a vote that really stands for nothing aside for which sell out and corporate shill to stand behind.

Re:Just wow

[trum4n]

I'm sure not.

Re:I love hearing right-wingers complain about EPA

[0123456]

When their guy Dick Nixon is the one that proposed, and signed it in to law.

He also supported price and wage controls. If he was still alive the Democrats would be running him as a hard-left candidate.

Re:I love hearing right-wingers complain about EPA

[Gilmoure]

When you look at what Nixon passed, he was the most environmentally pro-active president since Theodore Roosevelt.

Wait a minute....

[Nidi62]

So, are you telling me it's now easier to fly with a firearm than it is with an acoustic guitar?

Re:Wait a minute....

[Kunedog]

So, are you telling me it's now easier to fly with a firearm than it is with an acoustic guitar?

It has been much easier (in the US) to fly with guns than with many other things for a while now. There are unique advantages to doing so; for example, AFAIK it is the only way to ensure your bags aren't searched unless you are present.

This is a long but very informative video: http://www.vimeo.com/3923535

Re:Wait a minute....

[camperdave]

As long as the firearm has polymer hand grips. If they are wood, or mother of pearl or whatever, they may be confiscated.

Re:Wait a minute....

[Nidi62]

There are unique advantages to doing so; for example, AFAIK it is the only way to ensure your bags aren't searched unless you are present.

Not really, no. Because there are no external markings designating that a bag is carrying a firearm (except of course rifle cases internationally[CAGPT tags]). So, there is absolutely no way to determine that a bag is carrying a firearm until you open the bag. Now, the firearm does have to be presented to both an airline representative and a TSA agent prior to checking the bag in to verify that the gun is unloaded and ammunition is separate. When this is done, a card signed by both the owner and airline agent is placed within the hard case as verification. TSA does not inspect the rest of the bag contents, they just verify the firearm is unloaded as well. So, once the bag is in transit, there is no way to know that the bag contains a firearm until it is already being opened and inspected.

And IAAAE (I am an airline employee) that checks in bags (including firearms) and is about to move to a baggage handling position

Re:Wait a minute....

[need4mospd]

When has is EVER been easy to fly with an acoustic guitar? You can't put it in the overhead and checking it is a guaranteed way to have some dipshit bag handler "inspect" it.

Re:Wait a minute....

[Kunedog]

This is a page authored by the same guy in the video:

http://deviating.net/firearms/packing/

Nowadays, I travel to conferences and jobs with my equipment packed exclusively in metal cases that are secured with heavy-duty padlocks that are resistant to cutting, prying, and picking. Many people express surprise when they learn that such locks are legal for air travel. There is no secret trick, really all one has to do is fly with firearms. Yes, traveling with firearms in checked baggage is not only easy and relatively hassle-free, but it also results in very strong security due to the wording of federal laws.

If you are traveling by air with firearms, federal law allows (in fact, it compels) you to secure your luggage with a non-TSA approved lock. Naturally, they must be unloaded (although transportation of ammo is also possible, if one follows airline policies), packed in a hard-sided case, and declared. Once the check-in process has been completed and the bag has been locked, no one is allowed to unlock the bag (or even possess the key or combination) outside of your presence. (Although some airports fail to comply 100% with this policy... read the traveler accounts to hear more about that.)

He is admittedly my only source for this info (though I will definitely do some more research now), but are you sure he is wrong?

Re:Wait a minute....

[Nidi62]

When has is EVER been easy to fly with an acoustic guitar? You can't put it in the overhead and checking it is a guaranteed way to have some dipshit bag handler "inspect" it.

You do know you can carry them on on anything larger than a CRJ, right? The space is limited, but the guitar case can go in the closets where the crew normally stows their bags, which is supposed to be used for carry-on overflow. I know for certain that this is the policy with the airline I work for. And on some of the larger planes, the overhead bins actually are large enough to hold a guitar case. However, it is only practicable/fair to put a guitar up there if the flight is fairly empty.

Manufacturing jobs not being exported.

[sgt scrub]

This is about India not wanting manufacturing jobs exported not about environmentalism.

Re:Obama hates guitars

[Anonymous Coward]

Great, another ignorant republican troll. Obama has nothing to do with this, it was your beloved George W Bush that was in president when these laws took effect!

But the Mahogany hogs on Wall Street are OK???

[Squidlips]

In "The Routes of Man: Travels in the Paved World" by Conover, the author traces the trade in rare Mahogany from the old growth forests in Peru to the homes/offices of the Robber Barons on Wall Street. Why aren't their homes raided???? Stupid question....

Hysteria! Panic!

[Sponge Bath]

Fact: Suspected illegal materials seized from manufacturer.
Article speculation: guitars will be seized by Nazi enforcers from individuals.

Warning flag that article is inflammatory: use of "artsy do-gooders only too eager to tell others what kind of light bulbs they have to buy"

Re:Hysteria! Panic!

[Shotgun]

Fact: Anyone can be suspected of ANYTHING.
Fact: These laws are not created to protect. They are created to control and convict. They are not expected to be followed. Create enough laws and everyone is a criminal.

Re:Hysteria! Panic!

[Rob the Bold]

Fact: Suspected illegal materials seized from manufacturer. Article speculation: guitars will be seized by Nazi enforcers from individuals.

Warning flag that article is inflammatory: use of "artsy do-gooders only too eager to tell others what kind of light bulbs they have to buy"

They coulda been a little more subtle with that. The WSJ has always had a slant, but they were better at hiding it before Rupert.

Re:Hysteria! Panic!

[rochberg]

Agreed. Somehow, two data points (seizure from a guitar manufacturer, and prosecution for improper documentation of a large collection of imported antique pianos) translate into evidence that we live under totalitarianism (Play guitar? Well, you better have documentation about every piece of its manufacturing origins or else!!!).

Sometimes it seems that /., with its sensationalism and knee-jerk anti-government hysteria, is aspiring to be Fox News.

Re:Hysteria! Panic!

[GameboyRMH]

Warning flag that article is inflammatory: use of "artsy do-gooders only too eager to tell others what kind of light bulbs they have to buy"

Whoa, that was in there? I didn't RTFA, but I'm gonna guess it's either from Little Green Footballs or Newsbusters. Even Fox doesn't use that kind of language in their articles.

Re:Hysteria! Panic!

[burnin1965]

Fact: Suspected illegal materials seized from manufacturer.
Article speculation: guitars will be seized by Nazi enforcers from individuals.

What's is even worse is the level of manufactured internet outrage that drowns out any factual content. Try to do a search to find some unbiased information and facts and 99% of what you find are the initial biased articles and the massive flood of propaganda fed from the biased outlets to all their minion blog sites.

And the sad part, slashdot is becoming part of this libertarian spam fest that starts with the billionaire owned propaganda factories and floods the rest of the internet through their religiously devout followers.

In the tsunami of fake blog spots and shill foot soldiers who do no fact checking or authoring of their own but instead simply fart out the crap that is fed from the propaganda machine to thousands of shill blogs I was able to find a bit of interesting detail. But the hysterical libertarian fanboys wont like it because the source holds ideals that are counter to their religion...

November 2009 Statement in Response to the United States Fish & Wildlife Service's Investigation of Gibson Guitar Corporation

"The wood under investigation is not FSC-certified nor is it allowed in any FSC-certified product."

"The certificate does not cover wood from Madagascar."

There appear to be some serious questions about new sources of materials that Gibson have tapped into. And contrary to the libertarian fanboy ranting about ineffective regulatory measures it sure sounds like the regulations have been a win for not only sustainable forestry but also for the livelihood of the producers in the source nations who are certified.

We likely wont know much until the investigation is complete but there will be no end to this new libertarian spamming machine that floods the internet and is poisoning slashdot with the biased propaganda oozing from the billionaire media machines.

Re:Hysteria! Panic!

[ravenshrike]

Except this raid is about Indian rosewood and the Indian government has gone on record saying they fell the law was complied with. Moreover, Martin uses the exact same wood from the exact same supplier and has not seen a raid.

As for the Madagascar raid, the government has yet to actually take the case to court, instead they repeatedly ask for stays and use every means at their disposal to delay the proceedings. Probably hoping that Gibson will crumble and let them sell it off.

Re:Hysteria! Panic!

[burnin1965]

Except this raid is about Indian rosewood and the Indian government has gone on record saying they fell the law was complied with.

Then again maybe not...

This guy has gotten his hands on some of the court records that the WSJ and the libertarian spam machine conveniently missed...

"When the wood entered the U.S. en route to Gibson, it was missing the plant products declaration required by the Lacey Act. This looks like it's where Gibson got caught.

When the declaration was made a day later, it was listed as ebony harvested from Madagascar."

Now this potentially may not be an issue as some ebony products from Madagascar are legal, as is mentioned in the article, but only from naturally felled trees. But there are circumstances surrounding the wood that infers it is not legal ebony. And to top it off, if you read the report I posted in the previous comment, the use of wood products from Madagascar is not allowed under FSC certification so Gibson is also in violation of their certification to be using sustainable wood products. Madagascar is not certified due to the illegal black market trade.

I am sorry but this entire thing wreaks of lies, greed, and corruption. All of which is ignored by the aforementioned propaganda machine. And there is a reason it is ignored, because those behind the propaganda actually could not care any less about laws or sustainability. Their only master is greed at all other costs both tangible and intangible.

Re:Hysteria! Panic!

[ravenshrike]

August 12, 2010

Might want to check the date on the article your post. That was the previous raid, the one that the DoJ is stalling out it's ass on.

The Economic Stupidity of (Some) Environmentalists

[geoffrobinson]

Let's ignore for a second that the government cares about how an Indian government interprets and Indian law for an American domestic manufacturer. Here's the utter stupidity...

If you have something like ivory or some rare wood, if you make the value of it next to nothing, legitimate businesses will have no incentive to have that resource conserved.

Let's say you are in some rainforest and you have this really rare tree that is valuable for its wood. If legitimate businesses can use it and it has value, you can find a way to harvest it and make sure more grows. If it has no value, you plow the thing over and grow some crops.

The same goes for different animal species as well.

Do you think elephants will stop being hunted because of ivory bans? If you allow a certain percentage of elephants to be culled, I'm pretty sure a group of people will make sure there are plenty of elephants.

Re:I love hearing right-wingers complain about EPA

[geoffrobinson]

I love hearing left-wingers think that Richard Nixon is a right-winger because he has a "R" after his name.

Maaaattt Daaaaamon

[dawning]

Hearts are in the right place. Brains are fused with anus' though. Douche-bags. So what? Now I have to get a stupid Carbon-Fiber guitar for travelling? Seriously, if some airport security dick took exception with one of my (new) wooden guitars. I'd probably smash it over their stupid face and spend a few decades in prison over it. I'm so tired of stupid people. The stupid, it burns!!

Re:I love hearing right-wingers complain about EPA

[Beelzebud]

Nixon certainly was a right-winger. He may not have been a fascist like most of the current right-wingers, but he was definitely right-wing.

Re:I love hearing right-wingers complain about EPA

[Beelzebud]

The reason I mentioned Nixon is because the EPA is his legacy, and it's fun to watch rabid right-wingers attack it as if were installed by a group of Birkenstock wearing hippies.

This is fucking ridiculous

[LocalH]

This seizure suit that I read was filed highlights one of the ways that they do an end run around the Constitution. The suit isn't "United States v Gibson Guitar Corporation", it's "United States v. Ebony Wood In Various Forms". They don't file suit against the legal entity, but they file suit against the property to be seized itself. Someone please explain to me how that's Constitutional, seeing that inanimate wood cannot defend against itself.

Re:I love hearing right-wingers complain about EPA

[0123456]

Nixon certainly was a right-winger. He may not have been a fascist like most of the current right-wingers, but he was definitely right-wing.

Fascists were left-wing. And in what universe are price and wage controls now 'right wing' policies? If Obama was proposing them people would be calling him a commy.

Not exactly...

[joeyblades]

The feds claim against Gibson is not that they are using wood from non sustainable sources, as stated above. Gibson has clear documentation showing that it is.The feds maintain that the issue is that the wood was not "finished" by Indian workers, as (possibly) required by Indian law.

Incidentally, the Indian government is not involved.

Re:Not exactly...

[bananaquackmoo]

If 100 trees are cut down and none are replanted, then they're all gone. Hence, unsustainable.

Re:Not exactly...

[RespekMyAthorati]

No the feds are going after Gibson for lying on the importation forms. Lying to police, customs, immigration etc. is always a crime, no matter what. The claim that this will affect ordinary people transporting their guitars is just right-wing fud.

Inspires Innovation

[dawning]

Maybe this just means guitars will have to start being made with integrated stabbing-posts - to fend off idiotic haters, by stabbing them in the eyes, while playing Hotel California. Fuck I love that tune. lol.

Re:Inspires Innovation

[greg1104]

Can I get a guitar that shoots fire for burning their houses down when I play "Smoke on the Water" instead? Bad guitarists who only know a few chords need to be protected too.

Re:Inspires Innovation

[RCGodward]

I had a shitty day and I hate the fucking Eagles, man.

Re:I love hearing right-wingers complain about EPA

[HungWeiLo]

He also supported the Clean Air Act and OSHA.

And he also proposed, in 1974, universal health care in America by providing government funding to private employer-provided insurance plans. Sound familiar?

Re:I love hearing right-wingers complain about EPA

[Beelzebud]

In what universe were fascists left-wing?

It simply ain't that simple ...

[MacTO]

If they were talking about an endangered animal, particularly an easily recognisable and cute species, I'm sure that quite a few people would be changing their tone. The problem is that trees just don't have that huggable demeanour and very few people could tell the difference between a cherry and a peach tree unless it was bearing fruit. I also think that people have no conception of how long it takes a lot of plants to mature to the point where they can be harvested. The trees in your yard may grow from a sapling to maturity in a decade, but part of the reason why they were selected was because of how quickly they mature. (The same can be said for reforesting. We tend to use common trees that mature quickly so that it looks better to armchair environmentalists and can be harvested sooner.)

But sure, express your outrage over the government because you can't take the time to think through the issues. That is, after all, how we make sound policy decisions.

Re:It simply ain't that simple ...

[LocalH]

Nature "endangers" plenty of animals without our assistance at all. Who's fighting for those animals?

Re:It simply ain't that simple ...

[MacTO]

Because that part of nature called humanity is one of the most destructive forces on the face of this planet.

As a species we are quite systematic about that destruction. Even the massive destruction of forest fires is tempered by the rain and delayed (if not outright halted) by natural features like rivers and lakes. Humans will clear cut rain or shine, then build roads and bridges to reach even further. Even predators are tempered by dwindling food stocks if they over consume. Yet humans will invent even more creative ways to harvest what little remains, then go on to clear the land for agriculture (with a limited number of species receiving our graces to survive).

Oh, and sometimes people will stop those "animals fighting animals". We will battle natural forest fires. We will exterminate invasive species. We will cull one species to preserve another.

Conservation isn't just a bunch of tree huggers with a political agenda. Yes, those people exist. On the other hand, there are many conservationists who are quite knowledgeable about the consequences of humanity's actions upon ecosystems and how damage to those ecosystems affects humanity.

Re:I love hearing right-wingers complain about EPA

[Beelzebud]

Eisenhower also wanted universal health care. Before Reaganomics took over, Republicans were actually fairly sane on many issues.

Re:Please go after Gibson, not my Gibson

[FatLittleMonkey]

I think most sensible people would agree that Gibson should have to prove the rare wood used in their factory was legally obtained.

No, people should expect the accuser to prove their accusation, not the defendant.

Re:Musicians

[PortHaven]

That they're both misguided. And should be voting libertarian. (small "l" not big "L")

Re:I love hearing right-wingers complain about EPA

[0123456]

In what universe were fascists left-wing?

This one?

I note that you ignored my question about price and wage controls.

Re:Musicians

[rjmx]

I love it when wingnuts try to tell us we should have voted for the octogenarian and rent-a-nitwit. The fact is the we didn't vote for the better of the two; most of us voted for the least worse. True, Obama hasn't lived up to what he promised, let alone what we hoped he'd do, but we're still better off.

Every bit of Flora and Fauna?

[Rob the Bold]

The tangled intersection of international laws is enforced through a thicket of paperwork. Recent revisions to 1900's Lacey Act require that anyone crossing the U.S. border declare every bit of flora or fauna being brought into the country. One is under "strict liability" to fill out the paperwork—and without any mistakes.

I guess I should read the full Lacey Act as amended, because I could be traveling with a lot of flora and fauna. My clothes, luggage, shoes, food . . . I assume that my shirt is made from non-endangered cotton and not something else, but I sure can't prove that. I could show the label, if it's not worn off, but I have no documentation of the provenance of the fabric. Are those pearl buttons? Endangered abalone? A coral necklace?

And that's before worrying about the laws of every other country -- which might not be in a language I can read.

Re:Musicians

[jdgeorge]

This article is fear-mongering. Gibson is suspected of importing illegal goods (in this case, ebony, if the article is to be believed). The CEO of Gibson says they didn't do anything wrong. There is an investigation.

Note: There was never a musician stopped by US customs for travelling with an "illegal" instrument.

Furthermore, the article doesn't give even a moment's thought to why the wood Gibson is accused of using is illegal to import, and why the government agency is required to investigate.

There is no threat to musicians. End of story.

Re:I love hearing right-wingers complain about EPA

[Beelzebud]

Which Germans? The Nazis? If you think the Nazis were left-wing you have a learning disability. The Russians, were communist. Authoritarian, for sure, but not fascists. Fascists hated Marxism, so to say that the communist were fascist is just ignorant. These words (fascism, communism, marxism, nazism) aren't interchangeable, they actually have defined meanings. .

You should read up on the Italian fascist movement, and actually read something about those Germans. (Hint: the Nazis weren't left-wing...)

It's called in rem jurisdiction

[Anonymous Coward]

Since you are obviously expert enough in Constitutional law to believe this lawsuit is unconstitutional, it surprises me that you have never heard of in rem jurisdiction, which is one of the oldest concepts in Anglo-American common law and naval law.

Re:It's called in rem jurisdiction

[Anonymous Coward]

Since you are obviously expert enough in Constitutional law to believe this lawsuit is unconstitutional, it surprises me that you have never heard of in rem jurisdiction, which is one of the oldest concepts in Anglo-American common law and naval law.

Conflating in rem jurisdiction with the twisted legal shenanigans that justify asset forfeiture is pure BullCraptm. The common law designation was because there was property (generally land or an ocean-going vessel in admiralty law) and the owner was either unknown or possibly missing or presumed fugitive.

The practice of law enforcement breaking into a building or stopping a car and claiming "Okay, your car and all this cash is under arrest. You're free to go." is more akin to what is called "highway robbery". Not in rem jurisdiction.

Asset forfeiture

[bradley13]

Forget it - this is asset forfeiture. The feds already raided Gibson once, back in 2009. They took a lot of ebony, but never filed charges. Gibson is still fighting the asset forfeiture case, and the burden of proof is exactly wrong: Gibson must prove their innocence of any wrong-doing. The feds want to keep the stuff; it would be auctioned off, and they would get to keep the proceeds. One of the theories explaining this second raid is that the feds are pissed that Gibson hasn't just rolled over on the first case.

Asset forfeiture is perverse: you aren't charged with anything at all - your *property* is. The Gibson case is entitled "United States of America v. Ebony Wood in Various Forms". There is no presumption of innocence, because your property isn't a person, and anyway isn't being charged with a crime. The fact that this is naked theft is apparently beside the point - it is a very lucrative racket for law enforcement agencies at all levels.

Re:Asset forfeiture

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

Exactly my point.

The precedent for these "laws" were set by the so-called "war on drugs".

When a few people claimed that that this was the first step on a slippery slope towards fascism, they were decried as shrill, bleeding-hearts. The mainstream-media equivalent of being "Godwinned" into humiliation or silence.

Re:Asset forfeiture

[manaway]

The feds already raided Gibson once, back in 2009. They took a lot of ebony, but never filed charges. Gibson is still fighting the asset forfeiture case, and the burden of proof is exactly wrong: Gibson must prove their innocence of any wrong-doing. The feds want to keep the stuff; it would be auctioned off, and they would get to keep the proceeds.

So the feds seize Gibson's ebony.
The feds auction off the ebony.
And Gibson buys the ebony at the fed auction.
Problem solved, everyone wins!

Re:Asset forfeiture

[operagost]

Everyone does it. The peace-lovin' hippies who opposed the "war on communism" and the "war on drugs" embraced the "war on poverty", which has also increased the power and reach of government.

Re:Asset forfeiture

[ravenshrike]

Well, no, the precedent was set in english common law. Specifically the area of law known as deodandism.

Re:Asset forfeiture

[ShakaUVM]

I'm somewhat amazed that asset forfeiture hasn't been struck down yet for the unconstitutional bullshit that it is.

Asset forfeiture is exactly "Being deprived of property without due process of law".

I'm just curious how that US vs. Ebony Wood case got labelled "Forfeiture / Penalty - Drug Related Seizure of Property".

Re:Asset forfeiture

[bruce_the_loon]

Except for Gibson having to pay twice for the ebony. Their suppliers didn't say, "Oh, your government has seized your wood, you don't owe us anymore."

Re:Asset forfeiture

[Romberg]

Oh come on! The wood will end up in guitars used by musicians. Drugs will be involved sooner or later.

Re:Asset forfeiture

[manaway]

Of course, and that's why the link to the broken window fallacy. Though now that you mention it, the suppliers may have trouble enforcing a contract for the sale of illegal goods. However, the main point was to question how illegal wood becomes legal at an auction.

Re:Asset forfeiture

[Reziac]

See also http://fear.org/

Some posts downbelow indicate that Gibson may not be squeaky-clean in this matter, but the point still stands -- asset forfeiture is theft under colour of law, without the tedious need to actually *prove* a crime occurred.

Re:I love hearing right-wingers complain about EPA

[Rob the Bold]

When their guy Dick Nixon is the one that proposed, and signed it in to law.

And this is not even about the EPA . . .

Re:Obama hates guitars

[GameboyRMH]

Oh noes you blamed Bush! He hasn't been president since 2008 you know! STOP BLAMING EVERYTHING ON BUSH! LEAVE BUSH ALOOONE! T_T

The Economic Stupidity of (most) Economists

[NeutronCowboy]

Like most Economists, you're assuming that people make long-term, rational decisions when deciding about purchases or actions. They don't. They mostly go for the immediate fix, for the immediate pleasure rather than the delayed one, etc.

And that's even ignoring the fact that in some situations, even culling a small percentage of the population puts the entire species at risk.

Re:I love hearing right-wingers complain about EPA

[Beelzebud]

Look, when you start off saying something so ignorant as claiming the fascist movement was left-wing, then I really don't care to rebut anything else you say.

However, challenge accepted. The reason Republicans used to support things like 'cap and trade' and price and wage controls was because the Republican party wasn't always an extreme right-wing party. Republicans have moved so far to the right, that you make Nixon seem like a lefty. It's called the Overton Window, look it up.

Re:Guitars on Jets - How About the Jets Themselves

[tompaulco]

We have pretty good fake wood. Problem is, it's made out of oil.

Re:I love hearing right-wingers complain about EPA

[Beelzebud]

Tell that to the people up-thread demanding the EPA have its funding cut over this issue.

INDEED

[Anonymous Coward]

If you have something like ivory or some rare wood, if you make the value of it next to nothing, legitimate businesses will have no incentive to have that resource conserved.

And how do you suggest you "make" the value of it next to nothing?

The reason there's a value for it: many guitarists think that (even running ti trough all those electronics and distortion) it makes for a better sounding guitar (Les Paul himself proved them all wrong, but that's a different matter.); therefore, there's a demand for that wood. Now since there's a demand, the Indians will sell it because they want and need the money.

Supply and Demand. Econ 101.

...legitimate businesses will have no incentive to have that resource conserved.

The only time I have ever heard of businesses wanting conservation are various N. American fishing industries. They figured out the hard way that unless they actively manage their resources, they'll end up out of business. And it's not just the fish they're after that they manage. Through the help of biologists, they actually understand that it's one big ecosystem and you CANNOT just preserve one species because they all work in harmony; which is something the logging industry fails repeatedly to understand - especially in Third World countries. It's a "slash and slash" mentality.

Once upon a time, sea otters off of the coast of California (Monterey Bay) were in demand for their fur - old rich biches like dead animals around their wrinkly necks. The population was decimated. So what?, ask the ignorant. Their just animals!

But sea otters LOVE sea urchins and because the sea urchins only predator was just about wiped out, the urchins reproduced like humans. So what?, asks the ignorant.

Sea urchins just LOVE kelp and they ate like pigs and destroyed the kelp forests. So what? asks the ignorant.

Fish mate and breed in those kelp forests and when the forests were destroyed, the fish stopped breeding. So what? asks the ignorant.

The fisheries collapsed and so did the fisherman, the canneries, the processors, the mechanics, the bankers, the investors, the maintenance workers, the tax base, and everyone else who made their lively hood on those stupid fish that owed the existence to those "stupid" sea otters.

Environmentalists see the big picture and they see that our very existence is dependent on the environment. People who exploit the environment cause us all physical harm one way or another.

Gibson is indirectly causing physical harm of the Indian people and should be punished for their ignorance and criminality.

Re:INDEED

[geoffrobinson]

I'm assuming the demand will be there regardless. But without legitimate businesses and markets in the mix, there will be no countervailing pressure for conservation.

Re:INDEED

[lerxstz]

+1 to you sir/madam...if I had 'em. Where's my mod points when I need 'em.

Re:INDEED

[RespekMyAthorati]

I'm assuming the demand will be there regardless. But without legitimate businesses and markets in the mix, there will be no countervailing pressure for conservation.

Huh? What does legitimate have to do with anything? The kind of conservation that you talk about results from long-term planning, something that is all but unknown in the business world today.

Re:I love hearing right-wingers complain about EPA

[GameboyRMH]

He also supported price and wage controls. If he was still alive the Democrats would be running him as a hard-left candidate.

Damn right. Nixon was well left of Obama, or Clinton for that matter. I bring this up every time some Glenn Beck fanboy calls Obama a socialist (LOL).

Re:This isn't an "environmental issue"

[tompaulco]

India pisses me off. They are more than happy to take our jobs, but you try to take one of theirs and the dung hits the fan. And just try to get a job in India as an American citizen. I dare you. They are just a bunch of hypocrites. They want their cake and want to eat it too. Insert additional cliche here.

My friend started importing rare woods into US

[Jonah Hex]

So a year or so ago my childhood friend started importing some very rare wood into the US, driving down to South America and picking up small batches directly from sustainable sources, and he specifically markets much of it as instrument wood. From his Facebook posts he has more problems with the "tolls" driving through all these countries than he does from importing the wood into the US legally. Anyone interested check out www.savagewoods.com and tell him I sent you. ;)

HEX

Some things to consider

[EmagGeek]

CF Martin IV, a well-known contributor to Obama and the DNC, also makes guitars from Indian Rosewood, and is one of Gibson's main competitors in the acoustic guitar space.

The CEO of Gibson is a vocal republican running a non-union shop.

Gibson is being targeted. CF Martin is not.

You do the math.

Re:Musicians

[rot26]

The wood isn't illegal. India is protesting because they insist that the wood be processesed, in India, by Indian workers, before Gibson gets it. The state department is enforcing India's claim.

This isn't a matter of ecology, it's just business as usual.

Re:Guilty until proven innocent

[MinistryOfTruthiness]

Lagging behind? The issue here is a law that's two years old, stating that importers must abide by all of the laws of the country from which they are sourcing the materials. Sounds like a good idea on the face of it, but unfortunately, it's very much open to interpretation.

There are several problems here:

1. The government has confiscated over $1M of materials, *and not given a reason for it*
2. The government did the same thing two years ago re: Madagascar woods, and the trial is still dragging on due to government dragging its feet, missing deadlines, requesting stays, etc.
3. The government has claimed that *any* guitar sold by Gibson can be construed as obstruction of justice, and that this can be applied to the BUYER and the RETAILER. So, in other words, they've threatened criminal charges against anyone who buys a Gibson guitar. Because they have not stated a specific infraction, Gibson does not know which guitars this may apply to, and so must assume *all* of them.
4. Gibson assumes that this has to do with an Indian law stating that if any finishing work is done in India, that ALL finishing work must be done in India. Gibson buys half-finished fingerboard blanks from their Indian suppliers, but has all of the proper sign-offs and paperwork to show that this was approved by the government.
5. The government raided a factory using fully-armed SWAT team. This alone is a disturbing trend that must be stopped. They weren't raiding a pot house or a meth lab, they're raiding a guitar factory. Suits, pens and clipboards were much more appropriate than kevlar and automatic weapons.

Here's a video of the CEO talking about the raid. It's a bit long, but the guy seems genuinely baffled as to what could be the cause of the raid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_-taqM5Sk0

Re:This isn't an "environmental issue"

[GameboyRMH]

I'm pretty sure Eric Holder watches SWAT raids live and jacks off to them.

"Mmmm yeah fuck that guy's rights...yeah bust that door down good...that's right handcuff that motherfucker...aw yeah now take his property...yes, yes, YES! HHHNNNNGGGG!"

Chicago Style Politics at play?

[slapout]

The CEO of Gibson has donated to Republican candidates. The CEO of their competitor -- C.F. Martin & Company -- has donated to Democratic candidates. C.F. Martin & Company uses the same wood and isn't being investigated by the government.

Re:Chicago Style Politics at play?

[drinkypoo]

It must be hard to use the same wood to make guitars after Fender has used it. I'm pretty sure one piece of wood can't be in two places at once...

Re:Chicago Style Politics at play?

[archen]

If you do campaign contributions for defensive purposes, isn't the correct way to donate to both parties? (not joking)

Re:Chicago Style Politics at play?

[mla_anderson]

The point being neither CEO apparently contributed as a defensive method, but because of their own personal beliefs. Had they played the political game this likely wouldn't have happened. Neither party is above persecuting people who don't toe the line.

Re:Chicago Style Politics at play?

[BattleApple]

I'm pretty sure one piece of wood can't be in two places at once...

Unless the wood was split with one of these: http://youtu.be/2f-D0yAfu9c

I'm happy about this

[Dr. Spork]

Ebony is one of the slowest growing woods in the world, and it's absolutely central to the incredibly fragile and unique Madagascar ecosystem. As long as there is a illegal market in it, somebody will have the incentive to permanently destroy that ecosystem. What's worse, too few will have the incentive to start sustainable ebony plantations. Somebody needs to close the loopholes, flash some badges and make the punishment hurt, or we will completely destroy Madagascar's forests before we transition to sustainable ebony. We need strict laws if we are to make the transition now.

I can understand why people complain about documentation regarding older instruments, but if there were no such requirement, anybody could just say "Oh, this guitar? Yeah, it's old, the laws don't apply to it!" - which would be a gigantic loophole. Authorities need to have the right to say "Prove that it's old". It sounds like this system needs streamlining, but it's absolutely right that we have it in place.

By the way, I own a bass guitar with an ebony fingerboard and I'm certainly not an opponent of musicians who want the finest instruments. But I'm also an environmentalist, and I don't want musicians to be responsible for destroying the third world that they never visit.

Re:I'm happy about this

[halivar]

India is not a part of Madagascar.

Re:I'm happy about this

[Jmc23]

Laws don't accomplish anything in this regard. As long as the citizens of rich countries crave resources and drugs from poor countries there will always be people in those poor countries ready and eager to destroy their environment to put food in their mouth.

Re:I'm happy about this

[swordgeek]

It's so easy to be an environmentalist when you don't actually investigate the issues.

First of all, Gibson is not in trouble over illegal wood - they have documents showing that it was harvested and shipped in accordance with all international laws. They're in trouble over whether it was properly "finished" in India. This has nothing to do with environmentalism or sustainability, it's a political squabble between the US government and a company that stood up to them previously.

Secondly, 'Authorities need to have the right to say "Prove that it's old".' No, no they don't. That is called presumption of guilt. Don't know where you're posting from, but a good chunk of the world has a presumption of innocence, i.e. innocent until proven guilty.

Hey, why stop with proving that an instrument is old? Why not force the owner of an instrument to prove the source of the wood? Or that it's not ebony?

The bottom line is that there will be a small amount of corruption in the system--in ANY system. Tightening the laws unreasonably won't eliminate the corruption, it will only violate the rights of more innocent people.

Re:I'm happy about this

[ChrisMaple]

"As long as there is a illegal market in it..."

There is one way, and one way only, to end an illegal market. That is to end the laws that create the illegality.

Re:I'm happy about this

[phayes]

Clueless /.ers who post without having read enough on the subject to learn the facts of the matter have the slowest intellects in the world. Some environmentalists among them knee jerk to reactions just as pavlovian as those always spouting off THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!

As noted in posts by others, the reference to Madagascar ebony in TFA is a red herring. ALL the wood seized in the raid was from India:
http://m.timesofindia.com/PDATOI/articleshow/9756435.cms

I don't care whether you have a brass guitar, an ivory keyed piano or an ostrich plume sticking out of your butt. I would appreciate it however if you could contain your weeping on subject X until you learn whether the article submitter & the journalist behind TFA are as full of it as they were this time.

Re:I'm happy about this

[rubycodez]

The wood in question was certified by the Forest Stewardship Council; it comes from India and not Madagascar.

Re:I love hearing right-wingers complain about EPA

[geoffrobinson]

Well, the National Socialists were socialists. They were definitely left-wing economically. Yeah, they weren't "universal socialists." They are still on that end of the spectrum.

Re:Musicians

[acoustix]

True, Obama hasn't lived up to what he promised, let alone what we hoped he'd do, but we're still better off.

With over a 9% unemployment rate (that's actually closer to 18%) I think there are millions of Americans who would disagree.

Re:I love hearing right-wingers complain about EPA

[Beelzebud]

Just because the word "socialists" is part of their party name, doesn't make them left-wingers.... Is China a republic?

Re:Musicians

[greg1104]

I'd suggest Importing, Exporting or Travelling with Musical Instruments for more more information about the restrictions that impact traveling musicians. While it's a bit UK centric, the CITES rules apply here too. As for the idea that the concerns here are just fear-mongering, try taking an older instrument made with ivory somewhere and watch how that turns out, as the most extreme example. Ebony isn't on the CITES list, but there's plenty of other materials appearing in many vintage guitars that are.

El Duche, Liberal Maverick?

[TiggertheMad]

Fascism has historically been very hostile to socialistic/communistic movements. The Nazis were famous for their anti-socialism stance during the economic chaos in 1920s Germany, even going out and brawling in the streets with socialist supporters. While there isn't anything about fascism that requires it to be a 'right wing' point of view, I haven't heard of any groups that are historically left wing Fascists.

The Law of Unintended Consequences At Work

[oDDmON oUT]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unintended_consequences
Something our brilliant politicos are very familiar with.
Not in a good way though.

Re:I love hearing right-wingers complain about EPA

[lerxstz]

I think you're confused. Fascists are right-wing.

Competing hard for the far-right-wing title though are the Corporatists. They're only a semi-tone off of that dissonance known as fascism, which is completely unplayable to most artists. There, brought it back on topic.

The reason isn't so obvious

[rickb928]

Look into which guitar company contributes to which candidate(s) and which party.

And then consider this happened two years ago, and no cases were filed from that incident, nor were the confiscated materials returned

Re:I love hearing right-wingers complain about EPA

[NeutronCowboy]

Sure is. The head of the government isn't an inherited position. The more interesting country is the DPRK, which gets everything wrong in its name.

Re:I love hearing right-wingers complain about EPA

[halivar]

Price and wage controls, economic planning, progressive taxation, ceding individual property rights to the central government, no right to bear arms, comprehensive social welfare.

These some of the original cornerstones of fascist ideology. I fail to see how they square with the American right-wing (note that militarism, nationalism and etho-centrism, the other pillars of fascism, plague communist and socialist countries, also). In any event, early fascists called themselves both anti-marxist, anti-capitalist, and anti-clerical. That claim seems accurate; making most modern uses of "fascist" as an epithet ridiculous.

Re:Musicians

[ColdWetDog]

True, Obama hasn't lived up to what he promised, let alone what we hoped he'd do, but we're still better off.

With over a 9% unemployment rate (that's actually closer to 18%) I think there are millions of Americans who would disagree.

Ah yes. Blame everything on the current president. That always makes sense.

Jack White

[bigredradio]

Now I understand why Jack White played a cheap plastic guitar in the White Stripes.

Alternatives

[archen]

Recently I've been looking into buying another bass, and I had just assumed I would go with a Rosewood fretboard (never liked maple much). Is there even a synthetic alternative that (mostly) matches the characteristics of Rosewood? I'm not a perfectionist so "close" is good enough for me. This isn't a topic I've ever considered researching much and I'm wondering if others have any experience with other options.

Re:Alternatives

[ah.clem]

Often, rosewood is a generic term for a lot of different species used in the construction of musical instruments, unless you are purchasing really high-end gear. IMO it has a different sound than maple for a bass. I like ebony the best, but you won't find many off-the-shelf basses with ebony fingerboards (except double basses). Many times you will find a "stained" ebony fingerboard on a bass. Anyway, if you want rosewood, then go for it. If you are really concerned about it, buy a used instrument but expect to pay a premium for a good instrument. Something a few years old, no worries; a late 60's Fender Jazz, different story. But you are re-using the wood if that concerns you. Synthetics sound like what they are; synthetic. Just my opinion.

Re:This isn't an "environmental issue"

[RCGodward]

+1 Funny, +5 Insightful

This is why I play only Air Guitar

[retroworks]

And, it's carbon neutral.

Re:Musicians

[BlueStrat]

The wood isn't illegal. India is protesting because they insist that the wood be processesed, in India, by Indian workers, before Gibson gets it. The state department is enforcing India's claim.

This isn't a matter of ecology, it's just business as usual.

I'm a semi-pro guitarist/musician. This stuff impacts me directly.

I actually called the Indian Embassy. They say they did not file any complaints to anyone about the rosewood, and do not support the raid on Gibson.

Further, the rosewood in question *is* finished into pre-cut & polished fingerboard slabs, was inspected & OK'd for export by Indian authorities, and for import by US Customs (Gibson ain't sneaking this stuff into the country in jungle-built subs, after all, like cocaine!).

AFAICT, Gibson is also the only major US guitar maker that's in a "right-to-work" state. Gibson has also contributed to Republican campaigns. All major US guitar makers that I know of use Indian rosewood and other CITES regulated materials, yet Gibson is the only maker that's been raided (twice since '09!) and had guitars and wood seized.

Gibson is in trouble because the DOJ, in it's infinite wisdom, thinks that the finished fretboard pieces they got from India, although they were deemed OK for export by India and OK'd for import by US Customs aren't, in the F&W's/DOJ's opinion, "finished enough" according to the *F&W'sDOJ's interpretation* of Indian export laws (NOT India's interpretation of THEIR OWN LAW!!...they filed no complaint and don't support the F&W's/DOJ's actions)...and therefor in violation of the amended-in-2008 Lacey Act despite all statements and evidence to the contrary, even from India.

The first raid on Gibson in '09, as far as I can determine, was based upon statements made by either F&W and/or the DOJ to a judge, asserting that they believed some portion/part of the chain-of-custody paperwork was forged, in order to obtain a warrant to raid & search Gibson facilities. So far, NO CHARGES have been filed regarding the '09 raid & seizure, and the DOJ has had the judge delay indefinitely any further court proceedings, leaving some $500K-$1M in guitars & materials seized from Gibson in limbo.

Not necessarily that *Gibson* forged, had forged, or knew of any forging of any documents (could have been any of the suppliers/warehousers/transporters in the chain), but according to the letter of the amended portion of the Lacey Act, *who* forged them, why, or who had knowledge of any irregularity was immaterial, and the Act as written didn't protect Gibson (or any other US company or individual) for criminal or civil liability for acts outside their knowledge or control...called "strict liability"...which was one of the things those opposed to passage of the amendment to the Lacey Act were against due to it's unfairness.

Here's just one example of Lacey Act injustice that put an innocent man in jail for 8 years!: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHvJ6ld_Mic

Here's a piece on the difficulties that individual musicians now face in traveling with guitars and other wood instruments because of CITES: http://www.fretboardjournal.com/features/magazine/guitar-lover%E2%80%99s-guide-cites-conservation-treaty

Here's a couple of links to Gibson regarding the raids:

http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Lifestyle/News/ceo-outrage-0826-2011/

http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Lifestyle/News/gibson-0825-2011/

I'm not against conservation at all. However, the jack-booted ham-handedness with which the laws are written, interpreted, and enforced should be an outrage to anyone.

Strat

Happened to surfboard manufacturers 5 years ago

[sdguero]

Clark Foam, which made 85% of the foam blanks for all surfboards closed shop after years of pressure from the EPA and repeated raids/fines by CA and federal authorities. It was big deal at the time (2005):
http://www.surfermag.com/features/clarkfoam/

Back in 2005, the average price for a new surfboard jumped about 50% (~$400 to ~$600 a board) and that price hasn't come down on anything but generic shapes (i.e. Costco surfboards) since. Now our surfboard blanks are lower quality, come from companies in China, who have no qualms about dumping toxic chemicals into the environment, and they cost about the same because there is no competition other than a few colluding companies. A LOT of independent American surfboard shapers (aka small business owners) have been pushed out because they can't get blanks reliably in small numbers like they could directly from Clark in the past.

As I recall, when Clark shutdown he basically said he'd been dealing with these people (government authorities) for 30 years and couldn't continue to carry this industry on his shoulders or his bank account anymore. The US economy will suffer, likely forever, and we will lose art and innovation, but it wasn't his burden to carry alone. And he walked away. Probably surfing on a remote island paradise somewhere...

Between Big Brother and Tea Party

[mangu]

As the number of laws and regulations continue to grow exponentially, at some point we will all become violators of something

Unfortunately, it seems that only the rightmost fringe of religious fanatics oppose that trend right now.

The others, under the guise of "stimulus spending", seem to welcome all sort of government agencies.

 

Re:Between Big Brother and Tea Party

[INT_QRK]

Or, of course, those who are accused of being in the "rightmost fringe of religious fanatics" by virtue of any suggestion of governmental restraint during a Democratic administration.

Re:Between Big Brother and Tea Party

[ByOhTek]

No, they too want to make a bunch of controlling laws, it's just a different set of laws.

Re:Between Big Brother and Tea Party

[ByOhTek]

Odd, I don't consider the 'religious fanatics' to be the ones advocating restraint, they are in fact, advocating the opposite, just in a different area.

Re:Musicians

[ravenshrike]

But Gibson as a company donates to the Republican party. Whereas Martin, their competitor who uses the exact same wood in the exact same form, remains unraided. They however, donate to the Dems.

Re:Musicians

[amRadioHed]

And you base your assumption that we'd be better off under McCain on what exactly?

Re:Musicians

[Skarecrow77]

Exactly. If there is one thing I've learned from the internet, it is that nothing is Obama's fault.

To be more specific:

Everything bad about America today, during Obama's presidency, is Bush's fault.

Everything bad about America during Bush's presidency... was Bush's fault.

Everything bad about America during Clinton's presidency was also Bush's fault. He has a time machine.

"Sustainable"? Chuckle.

[Kaz Kylheku]

Maybe old 1950's Gibsons, not the crap made under that brand now. :)

Re:Musicians

[Lil'wombat]

Cthulhu in 2012. Why settle for the lesser evil?

Best donate to both

[dutchwhizzman]

It's what all the big companies do to get their agenda taken care of. Democracy in the USA is no longer based on the most votes, but on the most dollars contributed to campaign funds. However, to stay on subject, how about getting certificates issued for guitars built before these laws came into effect? It shouldn't be hard for A-brand manufacturers to retro-warrant based on serial numbers?

Screw the enviro-nazzzii's

[p51d007]

Funny...the Indian government isn't concerned, but the American government wants to enforce a law on the books from another country? Look into this a little farther and you will figure out the selective prosecution going on here. The Gibson company CEO is a big contributor of REPUBLICAN causes, uses NON UNION labor. One of its competitors, is a BIG LIBERAL contributor, and UNION shop. Gee, I'm sure this is just a coincident isn't it?

Re:Musicians

[NormalVisual]

I'm voting for General Zod myself.

Easy Solution

[Greyfox]

Get whale and dolphin bones from Japan and make all new guitars out of those instead. Problem solved!

Dibbs on the first "Gibson Whale" to come off the factory floor.

Re:Musicians

[Pete Venkman]

You forgot that George W Bush is at the same time the stupidest person in the world AND smart enough to be the mastermind behind Katrina, 9/11, the oil crisis, global warming, the Columbia space shuttle's explosion, earthquakes, etc.

File for a declaratory judgment?

[davidwr]

This won't help Joe Average but elite professionals should have the $$$ to get a lawyer to file a "declaratory judgment suit" asking a judge to declare that his guitar is legal.

Once this is done, it's done. He can fly with it and a copy of the judgment without fear of seizure.

The downside? While the suit and appeals are pending the guitar in question may be impounded, and it may be stored in conditions that cause it to deteriorate. Be sure to word your suit so the judge makes it crystal clear that the government is responsible for any damage if they impound it.

Well, that's the theory anyway. Disclaimer: I am not a laywer.

Re:I love hearing right-wingers complain about EPA

[Beelzebud]

Not on slashdot. Here the statement that says "Fascists were left wing" gets modded up.

Guess Michelle O. was "trafficking" then...

[CptNerd]

http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Lifestyle/News/Michelle-Obama-French-406/

Of course, since it's a Gibson press release, it's obviously biased and will be easily dismissed by all correct-thinking people.

Re:Please go after Gibson, not my Gibson

[locallyunscene]

That's why there is an affidavit and a court case. Evidence was obtained, a warrant was granted, additional evidence was seized, they're being taken to court. Now Gibson is playing to the populist "government hippies bad" to try and save face. The best defense is a good offense and all that.

Re:I love hearing right-wingers complain about EPA

[locallyunscene]

Price and wage controls, economic planning, progressive taxation, ceding individual property rights to the central government, no right to bear arms, comprehensive social welfare.

These some of the original cornerstones of fascist ideology. I fail to see how they square with the American right-wing (note that militarism, nationalism and etho-centrism, the other pillars of fascism, plague communist and socialist countries, also). In any event, early fascists called themselves both anti-marxist, anti-capitalist, and anti-clerical. That claim seems accurate; making most modern uses of "fascist" as an epithet ridiculous.

Five out of the first six have nothing to do with fascism. They are more akin to socialism than anything else, but fascism was a reactionary response against socialism. And out of your second list you're missing the lynch pin of fascism a strong police state which the current right promotes .

Re:Musicians

[Pete Venkman]

Gozer's the only candidate who could actually get elected.

word of a jackbooted feltch wad

[rubycodez]

And we're supposed to believe this, and say it's ok for the goverment to embark on a program of harassing and destroying a domestic business without a trial, without proof, because of words some gun toting fishy birds and the bees police? How about this alternative explanation, the government is in the hands of elite with our lawmakers in their pockets, and to create and help certain global markets certain U.S. ones have been targeted for destruction over the past four decades?

Re:word of a jackbooted feltch wad

[EvilAlphonso]

And somehow this elite made the shipment go through 4 middlemen who magically happened to fill the customs paperwork in the way most likely to get the stuff through the respective customs while concealing the end customer for the goods. And magically, this elite made sure that the incriminating goods would end up in Gibson's warehouse. All that to incriminate an honest to god, republican-donating, bastion of American entrepreneurship.

Or maybe you believe that the most logical/efficient order procedure for Gibson is to get the goods ordered in India by a German company with an accidentally favorable incorrectly filled customs paperwork (labelling the boards as "finished musical instrument parts"), who would then sell it to a California wholeseller with a different set of accidentally favorable incorrectly filled customs paperwork (labelling the boards as "veneer"), who would in turn sell it to a person in Tennessee, who would finally sell it with the proper labelling to Gibson? That kind of procedure smells fishy, almost as if they were trying to throw somebody off a scent.

Re:word of a jackbooted feltch wad

[rubycodez]

Once again, you are speaking the words and story of the accuser, and taking them as truth.

Re:word of a jackbooted feltch wad

[EvilAlphonso]

Well, the words of the accuser seem to make a better case than the words of Gibson "we are targeted because we donated to the Republican Party"... you mean, like the majority of companies in Tennessee?

Also, I don't know about the US but in the places where I've lived to date... you tend to have to show the proofs you've already collected to the judge in order to get the authorization to raid and search premises.

Also funny, from the Gibson press release: "This law reads that you are guilty if you did not observe a law even though you had no knowledge of that law in a foreign country.". Isn't one of the principles of the law that ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking it?.

Re:Musicians

[rocket rancher]

Most Musicians tend to vote progressive. Now that your ox got gored, how do you like that hope-n-change now?! Reap what you shall sow.

I doubt seriously that C&W artists, gospel artists, and classical musicians vote progressive. And they probably outnumber everybody else in the business. Besides, there are more than a few artists in other genres with decidedly unprogressive notions about the world.

I think you should have the dignity to just discorporate right now, by any convenient method. Like letting an ox gore you.

Re:Musicians

[NulDevice]

Whatabbout Fender, Ibanez, Schechter and all the others? They're not getting raided either.

I'm not a huge fan of Gibson. Anyone who ever relied on Opcode Vision or OMF has a beef with their biz practices.

It's called "a police state".

[Ungrounded Lightning]

When the laws are so complex and convoluted that everybody is a criminal and lack of intent is no excuse, the police can bust whomever they want and MUST select. So the polity becomes an arbitrary tyranny and the people who chose which laws to enforce on whom become the dictators.

Petty tyrants love this situation and do their best to encourage it.

Guitars and baggage handlers don't mix

[Wolfling1]

I don't care about the regulatory authorities. There is no way I'm letting a baggage handler anywhere near my vintage Les Paul. link related

Re:EXACTLY!

[coolsnowmen]

Do I even have to say citation required? Or can I just scream "troll" as loud as I can and hope you hear it through the internet?
Your choice.

Re:Musicians

[spauldo]

Musicians vote libertarian?

What is there about the libertarian philosophy that would be attractive to musicians?

Tech types, I can sort of see, if you're the type that believes in the whole 'trickle down' economy, but musicians are generally poor, can't afford health care, and have no investments. Sure, your day job might pay all right, but the more time your day job takes up, the less time you can spend on your art. Many musicians are people who don't fit into the normal flow of the workplace, and end up working low paying jobs. The Democrats are much better suited for that type of person.

Re:Musicians

[spauldo]

You think we wouldn't have rampant unemployment if the Republicans had won?

Seriously, stop drinking the Kool-Aid. We'd have the same unemployment no matter what. You like living in a capitalist society, you have to get used to the idea that the government has no direct control over the economy. You want a communist government for that.

People need to get used to the fact that recessions happen, and there's not much you can do about it. Sure, regulation can affect them, and dampen the damage somewhat, but they're going to happen no matter what. The politicians use them as excuses to show how bad the other guys are, and you're falling for it.

Re:Musicians

[adolf]

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

Reminds me of Donkey in Shrek

[uninformedLuddite]

Look out he's got a piece

Re:Musicians

[gottspeed]

I'd venture to say most musicians don't vote, and I can't say I blame them. Who wants to put their name behind the kind of fascism masquerading as democracy these days? People have the government they deserve, and at this point, voting is where it starts. I think Einstein said it best... Something about insanity.