Ask Slashdot: Calculators With 1-2-3 Number Pads?

dotancohen writes "Although the telephone has the 1-2-3 key on the top row, most calculators and keyboards have 7-8-9 on the top row. Switching between the two destroys muscle- and spatial- memory. Do any slashdotters use a scientific calculator with 1-2-3 on the top row? I've already scraped and resoldered my Casio fx-82 calculator to have 1-2-3 on the top, and remapped the numpad in Kubuntu, but if there exist any calculators like this already on the market, I'd buy two."

Comments

Don't you have anything better to do?

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[newcastlejon]

Don't blame the person who submitted the question.

Blame the person who posted it.

Or blame no-one and JFGI.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[icebike]

LOL, The last person I heard complaining about this issue was a 029 keypunch operator.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[Isaac-Lew]

That patent (if it even existed) would have expired years ago.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[dotancohen]

Since the whole thread has gone into ridicule, let me defend myself (OP):
I use Anki to learn and memorize facts. When memorizing phone numbers and the like, I type them in so that Anki can check my answer. Then when I get to the phone I find that my muscle-memory is not only useless, it is actually a hindrance.

I have no problem operating either type of device, but the dichotomy puts up barriers where there could be bridges. When you need to remember a phone number, do you not mentally punch it into an imaginary phone? That spatial-memory device won't work if you sometimes type the number on a 1-2-3 keypad and other times on a 7-8-9 keypad.

I know that there are those of us who like to learn, and therefore use efficient memory techniques, and that there are those who ridicule those of us who learn. On a website for geeks, I had expected to find the former, not the latter.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[Blakey Rat]

Another post covered this material, but you should realize that geeks hate spatial memory and systems that use spatial memory. This is the community that embraces vi and hated Classic Mac OS... do the math.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[toopok4k3]

I let my phone to remember numbers and use computer to store larger amount of information. What I memorize myself is how to get to this stored info.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[JesusFreke]

When you need to remember a phone number, do you not mentally punch it into an imaginary phone?

I don't use a spatial metaphor for remembering phone numbers. On the other hand, I'm not all that good at remembering phone numbers either..

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[tomhudson]

So just pry the keycaps off your keyboard and remap the keys to have 1-2-3 at the top, problem solved.

I know that there are those of us who like to learn, and therefore use efficient memory techniques, and that there are those who ridicule those of us who learn. On a website for geeks, I had expected to find the former, not the latter.

You must be new here ... or you never read slashdot on Troll Tuesday [tt]

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[gknoy]

Some geeks dislike spatial memory, but on the other hand how else would you describe understanding the "shape" of a program, or the way it fits together? I'm sure some geeks DO leverage spatial memory.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[gknoy]

You have an interesting question there. I don't consciously imagine punching in a phone number, but as I do it my muscle memory helps me know when I've done it wrong. (Thanks for the link to Anki, also.) However, I almost never need to type in phone numbers on a computer, and it sounds like the only reason you do is so that you can use the memory aid tools. Do you do a lot of work with calculators? The way I type in numbers on a phone is normally with my thumbs, rather than my fingers, so it's (for me) a very different mental task than keying in on a keyboard. I don't think I'd have much overlap between the memory of typing numbers on my phone versus typing them on a keyboard.

A sibling commenter mentioned that they are terrible at remembering phone numbers. I am too -- that's why I use a tool to remember them for me. Why do you find yourself caring whether you have it in your head versus in the phone's memory?

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[mabhatter654]

I'd say the telephone pad is "upside down".

The "10 key" layout has been a standard for number crunching for ages. It's more efficient to have the low numbers on the bottom because they are statistically used more often, speeding up input.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[ninetyninebottles]

I know that there are those of us who like to learn, and therefore use efficient memory techniques, and that there are those who ridicule those of us who learn. On a website for geeks, I had expected to find the former, not the latter.

Even on a site for geeks you have to understand the signal to noise ratio is not wonderful. There certainly are actual geeks and nerds here who appreciate mnemonic techniques and sympathize with your desire for prefab technology to make those techniques easier. I read your post and thought, "huh, interesting, but I don't know of any off the shelf calculators with that arrangement." Then I kept my mouth shut and moved on until I had something to say.

Ignore the idiots and the haters and chalk the lack of useful feedback up to the paucity of solutions.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[gatkinso]

I rarely call people on my calculator.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[__aasehi2499]

Why do you find yourself caring whether you have it in your head versus in the phone's memory?

He's a spy. shhhhhh.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[fahrbot-bot]

You know... I think I've actually used one of those, or something very similar, way back in 1982 or so in a college FORTRAN class. I remember the type/punch sounds, drawing diagonal lines across the side of card stacks and... Jesus, I'm old - sigh.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[billstewart]

Oh, the new model keypunch! I used one of those in college in the mid-70s, but I learned keypunching on a Model 026, running a Boy Scout mailing list in ~1971. So no, you're not close to old...

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[gcalvin]

Who memorizes phone numbers anymore? Twenty years ago, I probably knew 100 phone numbers, and now I know maybe 10. My phone knows the numbers of the people I call, not me.

The calculator layout is much more important in terms of spatial memory than the phone layout. Data entry operators and spreadsheet power users have been using the 10-key format for many decades. If you need to make a change, make it on the phone, not on the calculator.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[aztracker1]

I'm pretty sure it has been more than 20 years now.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[NemosomeN]

Thanks for the update submitter! (OP? Not what we call that here) If you ever need to find my username, it will be on your freaks list.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[NemosomeN]

Same here. Why would you put your 10 key on the same side of your desk as your phone anyway? How cluttered do you want your workspace?

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[Grishnakh]

If it's true, it would explain why things are the way they are now though. Even if the patent's expired now, it probably wasn't back when handheld calculators first came out, and once that was in place, they just kept doing it the same way. Computer keyboard numeric keypads were just an extension of calculators, so they had to have the same layout as calculators. Now that the standards are in place (one standard for phones and one for computer keypads and calculators), they can't be changed without an uproar. So we're stuck.

However, with today's smartphones not having any physical keypads at all and only touchscreens, it should be trivial to allow them to be set either way. Of course, the phone companies aren't going to bother wasting one man-hour on such a feature, so we'll never see it.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[Spudley]

There are good reasons for the two layouts. They're lost in the mist of time, but they are good reasons.

Calculators derive their layout from a strictly mathematical perspective, and is probably the most sensible layout to work with if you want to practice your muscle memory.

The phone layout is that way due to the mapping of letters to the digits, which was defined back in the days of rotary dial phones. Putting the 'ABC' key at the top of the keypad made it easier to read. In addition, the in old pulse-dial system, the zero digit actually represented ten, not zero, and on rotary dials it was placed at the end after nine. That also helped to make the chosen key layout for phones seem more logical at the time, both for the phone manufacturers and for users who were used to rotary dials.

One thing you certainly aren't going to achieve is to get calculator or phone manufacturers to change their layouts. Both layouts are highly ingrained in the collective consciousness of their users, and no-one is going to buy a product which deviates from the norm. You may as well try to persuade everyone to go and buy a Dvorak keyboard.

So the short answer to your plea is: no. It ain't gonna happen.

But I can see hope for you: Smart phones.

While you aren't going to get calculators to change, smart phones have touch screen interfaces. I don't see any reason at all why there couldn't be an app that displays the phone keypad in calculator-like style. It may be the opposite of what you're asking for, but it would achieve the consistency that you're looking for between the two.

The only problem then is if you ever have to use someone else's phone to make a call....

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[UnresolvedExternal]

My sympathy dotancohen - ask a simple question, get a dozen trolls in response.

In an effort to try and be helpful, are there any calculators that support bluetooth? At least then you may only have to get the soldering iron out once... Best of luck on your quest!

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[darrylo]

As others have said:

* These days, phone numbers are something you enter once, and forget about. Computers and phones now remember them for you.

* Phone number pads are, arguably, "more obsolete" than calculator/computer numeric pads, and so the world should move to the "789" keypad style. (Here, "more obsolete" is relative, as we'll still have telephone keypads for years to come.)

* Even if you're right, the majority of people don't really care. And, if either keypad were to change, the public outcry and complaints would likely be of biblical proportions. Bottom line: nothing's going to change.

If it really bothers you, pop off the numeric keypad keys on a PC keyboard, and remap the scan codes. With MS Windows (from XP onwards, IIRC), it's pretty easy to remap scancodes deep down in the keyboard driver, using the registry. I do this to swap the caps and ctrl keys.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[grumling]

http://thomasokken.com/free42/ Runs on just about anything, including Android. Very good HP experience.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[dotancohen]

If it really bothers you, pop off the numeric keypad keys on a PC keyboard, and remap the scan codes. With MS Windows (from XP onwards, IIRC), it's pretty easy to remap scancodes deep down in the keyboard driver, using the registry. I do this to swap the caps and ctrl keys.

For me it is a big deal as I deal with customers and ephemeral contacts, not just a set of constant contacts. I need to dial them on the phone, and use their phone numbers on the computer. It is also nice if I can remember their numbers.

I don't use windows, but I did do the key-swap in Linux. It was no big deal. In this AskSlashdot I ask about calculators that may or may not exist.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[dotancohen]

My sympathy dotancohen - ask a simple question, get a dozen trolls in response.

In an effort to try and be helpful, are there any calculators that support bluetooth? At least then you may only have to get the soldering iron out once... Best of luck on your quest!

Hehe, thanks. I'm not sensitive to ridicule!

A single poster below mentioned an Android app calculator that lets one choose the numpad configuration. I don't have an Android phone, but that is one possibility. I don't want to use a bluetooth keyboard with a scientific calculator, that is going a bit far (said the guy who already soldered his calculator!)

Thanks.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[dotancohen]

I probably wasn't clear: the muscle-memory that I mentioned was for specific phone numbers, not the keypad in general.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[dotancohen]

I probably wasn't clear. The muscle-memory that I referred to was for any specific phone number, not the keypad.

I've been called worse that a freak! Nice palindrome for a username!

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[dotancohen]

Yes, but the calculator I use with my left hand with the pen in my right hand.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[dotancohen]

The number in question could be any number. For instance, I decided to memorize the ID numbers of my daughters and wife after a recent incident. To do that, I simply punch the number into my phone a few times and now my hands remember it. But then when I need to enter the number on a computer (if I ever do) the muscle memory is wrong, so I need to "dial" the number on the desk surface then translate that to the keypad.

That is of course just an example. I also have customers and other contacts, many of which as ephemeral but need to be entered into my phone and my computer.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[dotancohen]

Thanks, I know that you are right. I'm used to the trolls!

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[dotancohen]

Hey, don't blow my cover!

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[dotancohen]

I am much more likely to use other people's phone (or ATM, or security keypad) than someone else's calculator. I would prefer a uniform interface, that's all.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[dotancohen]

So just pry the keycaps off your keyboard and remap the keys to have 1-2-3 at the top, problem solved.

I did that, I even mentioned it in the OP. Now I'm looking for a calculator to match.

You must be new here ... or you never read slashdot on Troll Tuesday [tt]

It's Saturday evening on my point on the sphere!

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[couchslug]

"When you need to remember a phone number, do you not mentally punch it into an imaginary phone? "

No, I grew up with DIAL telephones, so I "see" the number sequence as area code and telephone number.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[camperdave]

Surely there are far more 789 number pads out there than 123 phone pads. So why are you rewiring your calculators and not your phones? 789 was there first!

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[techdavis]

I don't see it as an issue - I used to ten key, back in the old pre-scanner cash register days, and my muscle memory for that was just fine; 60+ items per minute. I also dial a phone by touch. No muscle memory issues for either. It comes from association, I never associated a phone number with a register, calculator or number pad on a keyboard; and never associated calculator (etc) issues with the phone. If you want to practice typing in phone numbers, just punch them into the cell phone, and NOT hit send. You get a visual feedback, as the numbers show on the screen. That, or invest a few dollars in a cordless phone with the same feature. You'd be surprised at the human body's ability to adapt to two separate layouts, and yes, spacial memory DOES work that way. At least for most people.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[DaphneDiane]

I use Anki to learn and memorize facts.

Looks like an interesting program. I might have to check it out. That said I've never really been good with flash cards myself. I tend to remember stuff more by associating it with the location I learned it.

When memorizing phone numbers and the like, I type them in so that Anki can check my answer. Then when I get to the phone I find that my muscle-memory is not only useless, it is actually a hindrance.

Have you considered installing a keyboard layout which reverses the number pad that you can type with the "correct" layout?

When you need to remember a phone number, do you not mentally punch it into an imaginary phone?

I can see how some would remember that way. I don't for most things, with the exception of some C64 basic keywords that I think of in Qwerty ( even though I program mostly in Dvorak these days ) and passwords as a web of lines for when I type them disjoint from the memory of what the password actually is. I tend to recall numbers ( and words ) as a whole and then just think the number as my fingers worry about about what key they have to type without really being aware of the keys or individual numbers involved. Alas I tend to give the various component numbers out of order if I'm try to recall them as digits. For example 123-456-7890. If not careful I would give the speak the digits as 7 - 89 - 0h - 4 - 56 - 1 - 23, even though I would dial or type them correctly. I'm pretty consistent in this type of mistake, which has some funny results when I'm doing team programming.

"This number should be 7 89 04 56 1 23 here." Types 123-456-7890. Other person "Don't you mean: 1 23 4 56 78 90". Me: "That's what I... I did it again didn't I?"

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[Dun Malg]

Either way, it's a wasted question. Years ago, when Ma Bell was the only phone company and they came out with touch-tone phones, they patented the arrangement with 1-2-3 at the top. So if you want to make a calculator that uses that, you'll have to pay a fee.

That's not true. There's no patent for the 1-2-3 keypad (nor was Bell/AT&T the only phone company in the US, but that's not relevant here). Calculators in the form of mechanical adding machines predated the DTMF keypad by decades. When Bell came up with the touch-tone system, they actually spent a lot of money researching whether it should be adding machine layout, or 1-2-3 from the top. As it turned out, even experienced ten-key operators were able to dial phone numbers faster on the 1-2-3 pad because everyone--- even tenkey operators--- approached the task of dialing a phone with their index finger alone, regardless of whether it was pushbuttons or dial, because they were already in the habit of doing so with dial phones. 1-2-3 keypads are faster to use when visually hunting and pecking with one finger. Given that no one was ever going to be doing rapid data entry on a phone, it made more sense to use top-to-bottom order, because the reverse order of tenkey exists only to make rapid multi-digit data entry faster (i.e. zero under the thumb, pinkie for enter, and most common digits under the fingers as per Benford's Law)

I don't know what the hell is wrong with the OP that his brain doesn't have room for two different keypad layouts.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[Dun Malg]

I know that there are those of us who like to learn, and therefore use efficient memory techniques, and that there are those who ridicule those of us who learn. On a website for geeks, I had expected to find the former, not the latter.

I'd say the fact that keypads being evenly split into two opposing formats makes using muscle memory/spatial patterns a decisively non-efficient memory technique, and the reason you're seeing ridicule is your insistence upon pursuing it anyway, even to the extreme of reordering your computer keypad and scraping the PCB of your calculator to create one-off device layouts no one else uses.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[dotancohen]

Have you considered installing a keyboard layout which reverses the number pad that you can type with the "correct" layout?

I did that! Now I'm looking for the scientific calculator to match.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[charlieo88]

Are you one-handed?
The easy solution to your problem is to use one hand for phone and the other for calculators. I'd recommend using your right for calculators, as the number pad on your keyboard is already right oriented.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[notknown86]

Your approach is inefficient to start with. Your primary system should be 7-8-9.

Then, use the following conversion chart when you are committing the phone numbers to memory:

1=7 2=8 3=9
4=4 5=5 6=6
7=1 8=2 9=3


And let your muscle memory do the rest.

Problem solved.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[BluBrick]

Y'know, it seems to me that you have entirely over-engineered your solution. You've remapped your keyboard in X and switched the keycaps around. You've physically rewired your calculator and re-labelled the keytops. And now you're on the hunt for rare devices that breach established convention. Because you want every keypad you use to work like a telephone keypad. Why? Because you use a phone to practice entering non-phone numbers.

Dude, UR doin' it wrong! That's like trying to write by holding a pencil still and moving the paper underneath it - it works, but there's an easier way. Decide how you will use the number you want to remember. If it's a phone number you are trying to remember, you should use a phone keypad to commit it to muscle memory. If it's a number that you will rarely, if ever have to enter into a phone, use a computer keypad or calculator to do the same, or if you have a smartphone, fire up your calculator app of choice and use that instead.

Of course, if you have a smartphone, you'll realise that most phone numbers aren't worth expending effort to remember, because your phone will do it for you. If a phone number is worth remembering, it's worth keeping in your phone's memory.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[DaphneDiane]

What about using one of the key remapping applications for the HP 48 series of calculators? See the stuff at http://www.hpcalc.org/hp48/utils/interface/ for example.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[mister_playboy]

It's more efficient to have the low numbers on the bottom because they are statistically used more often, speeding up input.

That is the opposite of what Dvorak found when designing his keyboard layout... he found the top row faster than the bottom row.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[AmberBlackCat]

I think you would have gotten a better response if you introduced your subject by saying you practice a memorization technique that works better if all number pads are the same, so you rebuilt your calculator's number pad to match your phone's number pad. Even so, one has to wonder why a phone number problem and a math problem would be considered in the same category

On a calculator, you'll rarely have to remember the same sequence of numbers. And if you have to remember a number, there's probably already a button for it on the calculator like the PI key.

Finally, as others have said, it probably would have been easier to find an alternate keyboard to load on your phone than it would be to rebuild your calculator. No soldering required.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[AmberBlackCat]

Well I screwed my link up anyway so never mind.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[bryan1945]

"When you need to remember a phone number, do you not mentally punch it into an imaginary phone? "
No.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[caerwyn]

It's easier to hit keys above the "home row" than it is to hit keys below it.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[caerwyn]

I know that there are those of us who like to learn, and therefore use efficient memory techniques, and that there are those who ridicule those of us who learn. On a website for geeks, I had expected to find the former, not the latter.

Some of us like to learn useful concepts, not memorize things that are either useless or better handled by machines. I don't know most of the telephone numbers that I use with any regularity, and I consider that to be a good thing, not an indication of someone who doesn't want to learn.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[smurfs187]

Is this the best thing the manufactures can do in there "design" time? Very productive use of time and resources.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[ChrisMaple]

37 years ago I worked on a project to integrate a phone and a calculator. Stupid idea, it would have been easiest with 1974 technology just to glue a calculator on the side of the phone. But the boss wanted just one keyboard, and using the phone keyboard was slightly cheaper than using the calculator keyboard. So people would calculate on their phone, not call on their calculator. Time marches on.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[DarwinSurvivor]

Don't think typewriters had keypads on the side...

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[Anonymous Coward]

The fact that I can use vim efficiently is *all about* spatial memory. I couldn't for the life of me tell you which of the four home-row keys move you around, but I can navigate precisely in a file using things like "24j4h" without thinking about it (yes, I learned on a terminal without arrow keys, and now I find it a waste of time to move my hands off the main keyboard region). The same goes for most other commands. If I have to stop and think about what keys do what, I forget.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[Blakey Rat]

That's not spatial memory, that's rote memory. You have to first know what something is before you can talk about it, ok?

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[Blakey Rat]

This is true.

It might be more accurate to say, "geeks don't consciously use spatial memory," or perhaps, "geeks don't know they could benefit from using spatial memory when creating software UIs."

And even then, GNOME at least seems to understand the concept pretty well, so maybe it's not as bad as I think. I'm still bitter than Apple threw their beautiful spatial UI in the bin, though... what a waste of 20 years of brilliant engineering.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[znrt]

I simply punch the number into my phone a few times and now my hands remember it

ye who yells for a new sdcard, blame only your dumb hands and fingers!

the main problem with your mnemonic technique is that it doesn't work with all existing key layouts ... so instead of realizing that this makes it a poor (unpractical) technique, you'd rather want everybody/everything to use one layout that suits you. it's indeed weird that there are different layouts around, and I really don't know if there is a good reason for this or it just happened so, but that's what there is.

improve your technique, make it platform independent :-). you could train your symmetrical muscle memory skills. practicing memopunching the same number always both ways could help. maybe you could even patent it or pull a show! advanced tips: try punching simultaneously with both hands on different layouts. switch hands for bonus.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[unitron]

Actually both calculators and computer numeric pads were an extension of mechanical adding machines. the ones with the crank on the side. Only a half century or more of them when calculators and computer keyboards came along.

It was the phone company that decided to break compatibility when they started replacing rotary dials.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[Blakey Rat]

No, I mean spatial memory. That is why I typed "spatial memory." Sure, motor memory is a good thing, but it's also a completely different thing. What the hell is wrong with Slashdot readers?

If you don't know what a term means, please look it up before trying to talk about it.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[kabloom]

vi uses your muscle memory much better than the MacOS does. You need hand-eye coordination to click a menu, or select a window, and if you move the window, you lose the ability to take advantage of muscle memory anyway. In vi, the keys are always in the same place. (Unless someone plays a prank on you and remaps your keyboard to AZERTY.)

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[Grishnakh]

It was the phone company that decided to break compatibility when they started replacing rotary dials.

I wonder why they did that. As someone else here said, 1-3 are statistically more likely to be used than 7-9, so it makes more sense to put them on the bottom.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[Duggeek]

Parent modded "insightful", personally I would have gone with "funny".

I agree with others in thread; context is key to preserving spatial memory. POTS dialing is essentially dead, we all dial with thumbs now, if not with our voice.

I'm typing this with my Android(R) keypad, also using thumbs. Has it destroyed my ability to touchtype? I can say, with certainty, no.

I also use Swype (TM), which similarly has a negligible effect on my typing abilities.

Like others, I'm sure, I practice 10-key by touch. This discipline is absolutely dependent on the 7-8-9 top-row keys. So, unless you're proposing to re-wire 99% of the calculator-like devices in existence, I suggest you cut your losses and learn to work the numbers like the rest of humanity.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[coolmadsi]

Then when I get to the phone I find that my muscle-memory is not only useless, it is actually a hindrance.

I only have three phone number committed to memory: my own mobile, my Mums house and my Dads house (mainly because I used to live at the last two so the memory is just historical). The only time I can remember typing any of them in in the last few years is my own mobile, and that is only when I am using a computer (validation with a bank or phone company usually).

Again in the last few years, I think I have read aloud either of the numbers more often than I have had to type them in, either for someone else to call themselves, or for someone else to enter somewhere (or to check against their current details), not looking at a keypad in either case.

I guess I just have different use cases to you. What do you do if you need to tell someone a memorized phone number either in a face to face conversation, or written down on a paper form?

As an aside, I did a course on Human Computer Interaction and they did mention the difference between the different keypads. There was one suggestion that the reason for the difference is because Japan was producing calculators with a keypad around the same time another country (probabaly America) was producing a phone keypad (it might have been the other way arond), and the difference in numbers was because Japanese wasn't written left-to-right in the same way that English is, so they chose a layout that was more natural to their language. I think we discovered that it was just an urban myth, but I can't remember the actual reason for the difference (or even if there is one). If I find it, I'll add it here.

Re:Don't you have anything better to do?

[sznupi]

Of course, if you have a smartphone, you'll realise that most phone numbers aren't worth expending effort to remember, because your phone will do it for you. If a phone number is worth remembering, it's worth keeping in your phone's memory.

More like: if you have (just) a mobile phone - no need to go into smartphone territory, mobiles which won't do it for you are very rare for quite some time. Something like Nokia 1280 (or the new 100), among the least expensive phones at 20€ without contract, apparently has a phonebook for 500 entries (probably apart from the SIM card memory, the way this seems to usually work) - most likely way more than enough for vast majority of people. Even 50 entries (plus SIM card memory; here I'm sure, I borrowed this phone 5 years ago when my main one malfunctioned) of Nokia 1100 (just the most popular single consumer electronic device in the history of mankind) is probably enough for most.

At this point, I have a hard time understanding why anybody would want to remember phone numbers (apart from few essential ones of course - and even most of those would do fine as scribbles on a piece of paper, also carried around); unless it's a hobby or such.
And when utilising built-in notes, also such(^) phones can hold even more of the necessary numbers (at least of the "not secret" type, as most of them are)

Ultimately, the progress of our civilisation depends on, is largely about ever more efficient utilisation of prostheses for our minds - minds which have limited capacities, freeing them for new, upcoming pursuits and specialisations. The progress being largely about pushing old tools, habits, necessities, requirements, and skills of some bygone eras outside of the things we need to concern ourselves about. Many skills and activities which dominated the past become either obsolete or "hidden" from us.

Really??

[Anonymous Coward]

Really? It's that hard to switch between number pads on calculators and phones? That's what you're posting to slashdot?

Have you considered getting out more often?

Re:Really??

[rolfwind]

While I don't enjoy it, I switch between my own home dvorak and qwerty at clients multiple times a week. It look a lot to get used to... but I did with a lot of stumbles on the way. I can understand the frustration, I guess, but I'd just stick with the calculator numpad. Dialing phone numbers is largely on the way out, isn't it?

Re:Really??

[uvajed_ekil]

...and why are you dialing a phone so much that it ruins muscle and spatial memory? Having a preference for an upside-down number pad is fine of course, but this is the part I don't understand. Maybe look into "speed dial," or one o' them fancy new mobile phones with voice dialing, and switch fulltime to the qwerty style that is everywhere? Or maybe Zyprexa or Abilify is the answer. Seems like a lot of thought and effort for a non-problem.

Re:Really??

[CrackedButter]

Agreed, I was just going to say the same thing because I use Dvorak and Qwerty layouts, but add something else. What's wrong for the brain to learn both layouts?

Re:Really??

[Doctor Morbius]

Besides, you use your thumbs for entering numbers on cellphones anyway. While on calculators you don't use thumbs at all. So this post gets more idiotic the more you think about it.

Re:Really??

[Twinbee]

You can answer that question yourself if you ask "What's wrong with the brain having to learn 1000 layouts". Even our flexible neurons have limits, and at least some people value their time too.

Re:Really??

[mcavic]

I've never had a problem switching between my keyboard and my phone, but sometimes it is a little cumbersome to dial a phone number on my keyboard, or to use the calculator on my cell phone. In particular, with phone numbers that I dial often, my brain seems to remember the key sequence of that particular number, and that makes it harder to dial that number on a computer number pad. It's not cumbersome enough to worry about, though.

Re:Really??

[realityimpaired]

I work for ma bell, and frequently have to call enough different numbers that there's no point in putting it in speed dial (some of which only ever get called once). That said, while I do have muscle memory for the dialling, there's a really easy solution that I'm surprised that the submitter hadn't considered:

Use your left hand to dial a phone, your right hand to use a calculator/numpad. *gasp* different set of muscles, different muscle memory. That's assuming you're actually in a situation where you could benefit from it.

Re:Really??

[Aighearach]

Have you considered getting out more often?

Or less often.

Re:Really??

[Fjandr]

Absolutely nothing. I use both on a regular basis myself, and after the initial learning curve more than a decade ago it hasn't been a problem since.

I also don't get why anyone cares about the 1-2-3 on top. An insignificant amount of equipment uses it, and if you need to use that equipment so often it's a problem it shouldn't actually be a problem.

Re:Really??

[xystren]

I'm of the same mind also...I switch back and forth between the two different styles without much difficulty at all and rarely make typos due to thinking I'm typing on the wrong key layout.

Honestly, muscle memory being screwed up? Because I can swing a baseball bat well, does that mean that swinging a golf club is going to ruin that? Sorry, I honestly don't think so.

Re:Really??

[Cederic]

You may use your thumbs, but not everybody does.

I type on my phone with my thumbs but I enter phone numbers with my index finger.

Re:Really??

[Amouth]

that is the one reason i haven't switched to Dvorak - not so much because i would have to use Qwerty on other's computers but rather i work with a laptop - and when at my desk in the dock i could use a Davork keyboard - i can't seem to find a replacement for the one on the laptop.

Re:Really??

[BetterSense]

Every operating system i've ever come across makes it very easy to set up Dvorak keyboard layout.

Linux: setxkbmap dvorak
XP: control panel-regional-add language-dvorak is the first on the keyboard layout list-apply
apple: no idea but maybe setxkbmap works since it's just BSD anyway

I type dvorak on my work computer, all my home computers, but unfortunately I have to type visually on the shared terminals at work. I have not yet learned to touch-type Qwerty.

Re:Really??

[m50d]

You don't want a physically Dvorak keyboard, all that will do is encourage bad habits. (And you don't want it for the sake of guests using your computer either, because what they will do is say "oh, I can touch-type qwerty, switch it to qwerty in software" and then you do that and it turns out they can't actually touch-type qwerty). Just switch the layout to Dvorak in software, pull up a picture of what it looks like on screen to start with (maybe set it as your desktop background, though I never needed to), and get going.

Re:Really??

[mister_playboy]

The key layout is all done in software, so you don't have to modify the hardware.

I have rearranged the keys into Dvorak position on my laptop... the only flaw being that you have to leave the F and J keys in the QWERTY position because of their physical difference (touchtyping nubs).

Re:Really??

[CrackedButter]

Why did you have to take it to such an extreme example? I asked about two layouts not a fucking thousand.

Re:Really??

[Twinbee]

I was just taking it to its logical conclusion. You'll save time not having to learn it and also need less brain storage to store one mapping compared to two. Same principle for anything - piano, guitar, dvorak vs qwerty, car gear-stick, would also apply. Standards are a good thing.

Re:Really??

[Fireflymantis]

I'm not entirely sure about this, but I'll bite. here's an example, I'm 90% sure that learning to drive stick improved my quality of driving overall. One of my friends even remarked that I was driving a lot smoother, namely the braking and acceleration rates. It effectively stamped the model of the car engine switching through gears into my brain that carried over even when driving automatic. I always felt more in tune with cars thereafter and naturally drove the car with gears in my mind, translating to smoother takeoffs and, well I use to gear down with standard; I miss that functionality driving automatic.

I tried dvorak once and tried hard to grapple it. While trying out the new layout I was very conscious of using the home row - for eventual maximal speed. As a side effect of learning it, I ended up with much better adherence to good typing when having to return to qwerty.

I know some instruments, and I'm fairly sure that as I learn to play new ones.. working on guitar and lyra right now.. generalizations and cross applicative senses of things form such as chord theory, rhythms and melody, moods of music..

As for numpads.. It would be best to only ever have one layout.. right?

Re:Really??

[yotto]

I came on here to say this. I can dial my phone at work without looking at it because my left hand just knows where the buttons are. Likewise, i can do number entry all day (well, for a few minutes... before my brain turns to jelly) because my right hand knows where those keys are.

Bonus: With my left hand on the home row, and my right on the number pad, I can key hexadecimal numbers without thinking, as well.

Re:Really??

[CrackedButter]

I think a handful of variations are beneficial for the brain, just like our brains receive benefits from learning a second language. As for taking this to your logical conclusion, then probably no, I think their would be a limitation with time anyway. In everyday life though, we already interact with a handful of layouts/interfaces without much problem so one more couldn't hurt. Maybe I can also learn more keyboard layouts than the average person because I don't drive or play instruments?

At the moment for example I use UK Qwerty and Dvorak layouts on my Mac. UK Qwerty, Spanish and German on my iPad (then my Zaggmate case is a fixed Qwerty keyboard) and then they are repeated on my iPhone but while the layouts don't differ much between iOS devices, spatially they will differ and have to count for something.

Re:Really??

[tagno25]

You either rearrange the keys, buy stickers to go on the keys, or find a new keyboard. My Inspiron 1501 I rearranged the keys, but on my EEE I had to get stickers because not all the keys can be rearranged.

Re:Really??

[Twinbee]

I always felt more in tune with cars thereafter and naturally drove the car with gears in my mind, translating to smoother takeoffs and, well I use to gear down with standard; I miss that functionality driving automatic.

Okay, I guess that's a side effect, but perhaps I could argue that you didn't learn qwerty properly in the first place, and if you spent the time towards improving on qwerty rather than learning an additional mapping, then you would've been even more proficient still.

I know some instruments, and I'm fairly sure that as I learn to play new ones.. working on guitar and lyra right now.. generalizations and cross applicative senses of things form such as chord theory, rhythms and melody, moods of music..

Certainly, but imagine say two different sizes for the keys of a piano (I have grade 8 in piano fwiw), or string spacings/lengths for a guitar. It's to everyone's benefit to keep to a (good) standard for a given instrument.

Re:Really??

[mattack2]

apple: no idea but maybe setxkbmap works since it's just BSD anyway

Way easier than that, at least for "regular" users.

1) Enable Dvorak in the Input Sources tab of the Language & Text pref pane (there are a few Dvorak variants too)
2) pick Dvorak from the input (flag) menu

You can also use the Keyboard Viewer app (which you can show/hide from the input menu) to show you the keyboard layout to help you learn the new layout.

Its the phone company that caused the problem

[Anonymous Coward]

When ATT went to push button phones, they intentionally put the numbers backwards from 10 key adding machines everyone used back then. Then didn't want the fast typers to outpace their new phone system and punch the numbers in to fast.

Re:Its the phone company that caused the problem

[retroworks]

^ mod up informative

Re:Its the phone company that caused the problem

[icebike]

Mod down as nonsense.
Pushbuttons didn't arrive until they had digital switching which was fully capable of buffering even into the old crossbar switches.

Re:Its the phone company that caused the problem

[SkinnyChick]

Well, Wikipedia says: The reason that the keypad of keyboards and calculators are different is that the first security keycodes had been invented before the touchtone telephone, and did not require the extra + - % / keys and so the touch tone adopted this 1, 2, 3 at the top rather than 1, 2, 3 at the bottom as it too only required 12 keys. [citation needed] ... if you trust them.

Re:Its the phone company that caused the problem

[Waffle Iron]

When ATT went to push button phones, they intentionally put the numbers backwards from 10 key adding machines everyone used back then. Then didn't want the fast typers to outpace their new phone system and punch the numbers in to fast.

I doubt it. *MY* unverified explanation that I remember hearing somewhere is: They put the one in the upper left to make it more similar to the familiar rotary dial, where the numbers increase clockwise starting from upper left.

Anyway, is there a calculator on the market that has a phone-style rotary dial? Now that's something I might buy.

Re:Its the phone company that caused the problem

[Nethead]

Not true:
http://www.vcalc.net/Keyboard.htm

On a side note, back in my teens, I would make $5 for swapping the top and third rows of buttons on a standard WECO 25xx phone so that they matched an adding machine. The ladies in the office loved it.

Re:Its the phone company that caused the problem

[GerryHattrick]

I have a fully mechanical pushbutton dialler, that outputs pulse codes just like an old (UK) rotary. You can hit the buttons at any speed, but must then wait while it does it all inside using the energy from keypresses. Still works here.

Re:Its the phone company that caused the problem

[koala_dude]

My understanding is that Bell Labs tested a number of layouts before settling on the 1-2-3 matrix we use now as being simplest to master (see R. L. Deininger, Human Factors Engineering Studies of the Design and Use of Pushhutton Telephone Sets, 1960, Bell System Technical Journal [PDF]).

I'm not sure if calculator / comptometer manufacturers had their competing studies; I've heard that when Bell asked for an explanation, the answer was a shrug...comptometers were about 80 years by then, so I think the origins of their layout are as opaque and full of folk explanations as the QWERTY layout.

Regardless, I've encountered OP's request before...but for phone layouts which matched calculator layouts. I was working in an operations office a few years ago run by a person who was a fan of "Cheaper by the Dozen" who wanted to optimize our phone dialing speed (this was a fun place to work, even if this request sounds odd). We didn't have any success, but it was an interesting thought.

Re:Its the phone company that caused the problem

[icebike]

Even if true, that proves nothing in regard to the claim that the button arrangement was designed to slow users down.
People who dial phones all day can get lightening fast.
You never had to wait for the buttons, they buffered it, even in the earliest pushbutton phones.

Re:Its the phone company that caused the problem

[dotancohen]

Anyway, is there a calculator on the market that has a phone-style rotary dial? Now that's something I might buy.

http://www.vintagecalculators.com/html/curta_i.html

Re:Its the phone company that caused the problem

[cpuffer_hammer]

Part of the problem was part of the testing was done a the World's Fair. AT&T had many layouts on display and asked people to rate them. Good idea except that most people when trying keying in numbers for the first time on anything pick 123 as it is easy. But long term, it would have been better to settle on the initially harder to use 789 pattern. (or this could be just as apocryphal as all the other stories)

Re:Its the phone company that caused the problem

[gknoy]

Well, I did a bunch of searching in the Google Patent Search tool, but couldn't find a patent for it. I'm sure there is one, but there are so many others I just did not notice it. Hopefully someone can dig up a patent for this, as it might give a reason for why they arranged it that way.

Re:Its the phone company that caused the problem

[icebike]

Well, I did a bunch of searching in the Google Patent Search tool, but couldn't find a patent for it. I'm sure there is one, but there are so many others I just did not notice it. Hopefully someone can dig up a patent for this, as it might give a reason for why they arranged it that way.

Don't believe it was patented, and if so, certainly not by AT&T.

That keyboard arrangement appeared in 1946, way before push button phones,
on the 026 keypunch from IBM. http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/026.html

So if anything, AT&T was paying IBM royalties.

Re:Its the phone company that caused the problem

[icebike]

The phone company was simply following the example of the longest running keyboard manufacturers in existence at that time. The top row 123 keyboard dates from way prior to 1946.

Re:Its the phone company that caused the problem

[LocalH]

By the time hand calculators were coming out, they already had key/button pads.

False.

Re:Its the phone company that caused the problem

[ChrisMaple]

You never had to wait for the buttons, they buffered it, even in the earliest pushbutton phones.

This is simply not true. I've used and designed touchtone (DTMF) and pulse dialing circuits, and seen plenty of other designs including the Bell circuits. I've read the specifications. The DTMF spec is minimum 50 ms on, 50 ms off, so that 10 numbers can be dialed in 1 second. Pressing pushbuttons that fast reliably is not easy.

Re:Its the phone company that caused the problem

[yotto]

If the phone took as long as it wanted to do the pulses, then the speed you hit the buttons doesn't matter...

I'd rather have a phone with 789 at the top...

[Anonymous Coward]

...given that I use keyboards more frequently than telephone number pads.

Re:I'd rather have a phone with 789 at the top...

[Idbar]

Are you nuts!? I'd have to change my TV remote if I do that!

Re:I'd rather have a phone with 789 at the top...

[ejtttje]

Seriously, I don't even use the telephone number pad when making phone calls, even basic phones have address books built-in.

Re:I'd rather have a phone with 789 at the top...

[maxwell demon]

In the time until I've found the entry in the phone book, I've typed in the number three times. I only use the phone book for numbers I use seldom enough to not remember them.

Re:I'd rather have a phone with 789 at the top...

[KublaiKhan]

That's what I came in here to say.

But then, given the number of smartphones people are using, you could conceivably get an app to remap the softkeys on the phone's face into the proper alignment.

Re:I'd rather have a phone with 789 at the top...

[Oxford_Comma_Lover]

People still use land-lines without so much as caller-ID for backup phones, for odd locations, for apartment phones (in buildings not rigged to use cell-phones) and in a few other contexts.

Re:I'd rather have a phone with 789 at the top...

[ejtttje]

Use the search field instead of scrolling through everything. It's fewer keystrokes even if you know the phone number. (unless the phone UI sucks, which is possible) And if you have a few people you call a lot, set up speed-dial, even faster.

Re:I'd rather have a phone with 789 at the top...

[tepples]

It's fewer keystrokes even if you know the phone number. (unless the phone UI sucks, which is possible)

If you're on a dumbphone without a QWERTY keypad, and you don't live in a city with millions of people that straddles area codes and demands 10-digit dialing, entering a 7-digit number can be faster than entering a 5-letter name.

Re:I'd rather have a phone with 789 at the top...

[Xtifr]

I almost agree with you, except that the keyboards I use are mostly under my control, while the number pads I use are not. Remember, it's not just phones that have 123 at the top. It's also ATMs and point-of-sale card readers.

Re:I'd rather have a phone with 789 at the top...

[jedwidz]

The 123/789 thing doesn't usually bother me, except the time way back when I went to the bank to register for phone banking. They had me enter my initial 5-digit PIN on a PC numeric keypad - 789 on top, rather than the 123-on-top arrangement on the phone. Really did my head in.

And while I'm spouting barely relevant anecdotes around phone banking, for a while as an 'added security measure', my bank would have you enter just digits X and Y, presumably so that someone eavesdropping the call couldn't just replay the DTMF tones to gain access. But never mind that this gives an attacker (much?) better than 1% odds of gaining access with a (well?) educated random guess..!?

if you've done both since childhood

[hxnwix]

Then the muscle memories for each should be well compartmentalized such that you may switch between the two with high competency in either layout.

Re:if you've done both since childhood

[lomedhi]

I agree. I use both Dvorak and QWERTY keyboard layouts and have found that I have two different sets of "muscle memories" and tend to switch between them without conscious effort. It just takes practice.

Re:if you've done both since childhood

[Chysn]

That's certainly my experience. I'm a fairly fast ten-key operator, and I actually went through most of my life without being consciously aware that phones and calculators had different numeric layouts.

I started to notice the difference when I worked in retail about fifteen years ago, and we had a credit card reader. Credit card readers, like ATMs, follow the phone layout (123 at the top). When a magnetic strip was worn, I had to enter the full credit card number into reader, and then part of the credit card number into the POS system, which used a standard computer keyboard. When a single context is split between the two formats, it does get annoying.

Why not change your phone layout instead?

[MSRedfox]

I spend almost no time dialing phone #s. I just pick a contact. Phones were reversed because people used to be able to dial faster than the phone system could handle. If you want a modified number layout, get a smartphone and reprogram the dialing interface. Leave the calculator at its default layout, it's a good setup.

Don't see the problem.

[d3m0nCr4t]

I switch from mobile to calculator/numeric keypad and I never seem to make any mistakes. I switch automatically without even giving it any thought.

duh

[eyenot]

create: memory{ ^muscle; "calculator" };
create: memory{ ^muscle; "phone" };
create: shut{ ^the fuck; "up" };

Use your phone?

[Anonymous Coward]

Use your phone as a calculator

Aha!

[msauve]

So, you're the guy who keeps making wrong number calls to my phone, because you're trying to touch-type telephone numbers.

Did you

[JustOK]

Did you mean 2 or 8 ?

Fail

[Aighearach]

Switching doesn't destroy muscle or spacial memory. The problem is simply of increasing the amount of memory used.

Considering that numpads get longer use, and millions of people are very fast on them already, that is the correct mapping to use, not the telephone. The telephone is usually only used for 10 keypresses at a time when used for the numbers.

As for phones, on modern smart phones you can just swap them in software.

You can also use voice dialing to help avoid spending memory on the physical dialing.

WTF

[nurb432]

Sounds like you are calling far too many people to have time to be doing calculations.

Re:WTF

[jeffmeden]

Sounds like you are calling far too many people to have time to be doing calculations.

Calling too many people without the use of an automated directory of some sort (of which there are many many available). I mean hell, are you sitting there with a paper phone book just calling people for shits?

Re:WTF

[Arlet]

And if so, does it really matter if you hit the wrong number ?

Re:wtf

[MadMaverick9]

Don't most people use a computer numpad more than dialing phone numbers?

no - I never use the computer numpad, but I do use the numpad keys on my phone regularly.

but then - I am not "most people".

I wish there was a pc keyboard without the numpad. do you think I could just saw it off? at last I could sit properly centered in front of my monitor instead of skewed over to the left.

Get a smart phone

[steveha]

Get an Android smart phone and write some custom Android software.

Either customize a scientific calculator program to match the phone dialing keypad, or write your own phone dialing software with a calculator keypad.

Plus there is the option of calling your friends from your address book and not even dialing the phone, or using Google Voice Search and just saying the digits.

I don't know what to tell you about lock keypads, public phone keypads, and the like. Just avoid them I guess? (Where I work, I can't use a bathroom without using a phone-style keypad.)

I agree with you that the incompatibility is annoying. I never bothered to do anything about it; I just adapt. But if you want to make your own custom solution, that doesn't seem sillier to me than the people who insist on using Dvorak keyboards or whatever.

steveha

Re:Get a smart phone

[fermion]

I don't use a scientific calculator anymore, I use Wolfram Alpha. Pretty much anything you want to do a scientific calculator plus all the stuff that you can't do on many calculators simply because the College Board says that a useful calculator cannot be used on their tests.

So I pay for Wolfram Alpha on my iPhone and do everything that I used to do on my HP is about half the time.

Ask Slahdot: Calculators with Rotary Dial?

[makubesu]

Although the telephone has a rotary dial for dialing numbers, most calculators and keyboards have button pads. Switching between the two destroys muscle- and spatial- memory, as well as ability to use commas. Do any slashdoters use a scientific calculator with a rotary dial on it? I've already scraped and resoldered my Casio fx-9000 calculator to have a rotor, and plugged a USB rotor phone into Gentoo, but if there exists any calculators like this already on the market, I'd buy three.

Re:Ask Slahdot: Calculators with Rotary Dial?

[Chrisq]

Although the telephone has a rotary dial for dialing numbers, most calculators and keyboards have button pads. Switching between the two destroys muscle- and spatial- memory, as well as ability to use commas. Do any slashdoters use a scientific calculator with a rotary dial on it? I've already scraped and resoldered my Casio fx-9000 calculator to have a rotor, and plugged a USB rotor phone into Gentoo, but if there exists any calculators like this already on the market, I'd buy three.

I'm looking for a car with a wheel to turn to put on the breaks and a string pull horn. Switching from a steam locomotive to an Audi destroys muscle- and spatial- memory

Re:Ask Slahdot: Calculators with Rotary Dial?

[msauve]

"Switching from a steam locomotive to an Audi destroys muscle- and spatial- memory"

Witness the unintended acceleration associated with the Audi 5000. Casey Jones, you better watch your speed.

Re:Ask Slahdot: Calculators with Rotary Dial?

[Osgeld]

you just gave me an awesome idea for a input device

Re:Ask Slahdot: Calculators with Rotary Dial?

[fph il quozientatore]

Steve Jobs, is that you?

Re:Ask Slahdot: Calculators with Rotary Dial?

[Jon Abbott]

Here is the nearest match I know of: http://www.theonion.com/video/apple-introduces-revolutionary-new-laptop-with-no,14299/

Re:Ask Slahdot: Calculators with Rotary Dial?

[Osgeld]

hey now, I may be an asshole but not of that magnitude of an asshole

Nope.

[Aladrin]

You don't dial a phone with the same fingers you punch a calculator with. At least, not if you're a touch-typist. And if you aren't, why would you worry about this in the first place?

I learned the 10-key calculator in middle school and have never, ever had a problem with the fact that some keypads are upside-down from the standard 10-key layout.

This is seriously a non-issue in every regard.

Re:Nope.

[cheeks5965]

true. aside from the fact that the post is stupid, you point out why it is jus flawed.

Re:Nope.

[aztracker1]

I'm only guessing that you are left handed. Though, using one hand for number pads, and another for dialing would seem appropriate. I would say that 123 layout is better for a common device, while 789 is traditional and may well be better for touch input. (pull for 123, push for 789). In any case it would seem a bit silly. I would think there would be a bigger marke for phones with switched layouts.

Re:Nope.

[Aladrin]

Nope, right-handed and I use that hand for almost all keypads. The only deviance is when a keypad is placed such that I can't easily use it right-handed. (Security alarms, ATMs, and gas pumps can end up this way.)

Re:Nope.

[kst]

So it's not a problem *for you*. So what? It's obviously a problem for the OP.

Destroys memory, I suppose it depends.

[lpfarris]

I have never had any such problem. For one thing, I'm never typing nearly as many numbers on the phone as I do on the computer and calculator number pads. For another, I'm usually dialing phone numbers with my thumb, and numbers on the computer, calculator, or adding machine with my fingers. And speaking Italian or Spanish also fail to destroy my memory for English.

Muscle memory?

[gmf]

Spatial memory, maybe; but this has nothing to do with muscle memory. The way you hold a cell phone is very different from the way you "hold" a PC keyboard. I for one have never wanted to type on my PC's numpad using my two thumbs...

Re:Muscle memory?

[dotancohen]

Spatial memory, maybe; but this has nothing to do with muscle memory. The way you hold a cell phone is very different from the way you "hold" a PC keyboard. I for one have never wanted to type on my PC's numpad using my two thumbs...

You might have a point, but my right thumb is inoperable. Thus, I often use the phone keypad with the same fingers as I type with. (I'm the OP).

The different layouts are kind of the point

[PacoCheezdom]

Telephones and calculators (well, adding machines) have opposite layouts for a reason: slowing down the key presses on your phone. Try dialing a long number (like an account number) into automated phone tree on a phone quickly: a good cell phone will 'cache' the numbers and send out the DTMF sounds more slowly than your rapid keypresses. On a landline dialing too fast will often result in errors since they usually lack this feature.

You can read more about Bell/Western Electric's development of the telephone keypad here.

Get a Android smartphone

[Githaron]

and create a custom dialer app that switches the layout to a calculator's. It would be a lot easier than trying to find a calculator that switches the layout to a phone's.

remap

[TheSHAD0W]

I think I'd rather remap my phone's keypad to have 7-8-9 on the top. Especially since so many phones now have the keypad on a touchscreen, where it all can be done in software.

Re:Easy

[Anonymous Coward]

*whines* But that puts the 0 in the wrong place!

people still dial phone numbers?

[doogless]

I thought everyone had long since switched to making virtually all their calls via the phonebook function in their cellphone.

"Destroys muscle memory"

[Suddenly_Dead]

Switching between the two destroys muscle- and spatial- memory.

No, it doesn't. I can type with either very quickly without looking at what I'm doing. The brain is a wonderful thing.

Re:"Destroys muscle memory"

[rubycodez]

Easy for most of us, I discovered recently I even retain the muscle memory for rotary phones too; but the story poster must be an idiot-savant who somehow has the gift of remapping keys.

Two distinct spacial/muscle maps is possible

[DaphneDiane]

Have you considered holding you hands slightly different between the keypads? For example I touch type 7-8-9 number pads like it was a normal keyboard with the hand normal hovering over the home row centered on the five. Where as with 1-2-3 keypads I normally type those using my thumbs. This allows me to have two different special memory patterns that I can switch between and use without thinking about it. I actually do something similar with Dvorak vs Qwerty keyboards. Depending on how I hold my hands near the keyboard a different set of spacial memory is triggered. I still occasionally while type using the wrong style but then notice that I was holding my hands wrong and instantly switch without having to really think about the differences between the layouts. I use a more normal home position for Dvorak and angle my hands slightly more for qwerty. Urp .qamln. cu C abin. mf dabeo gl nct. ydco C yfl. ',.pyf and now with my hands back to the other position I switch back to Dvorak. ( I had to tweak the previous since auto-correct messed up angle to "a bin." instead of "abin.". I was surprised it didn't change more of it. )

Re:Why have a calculator?

[Chrisq]

This is something that has bugged me for years: why do people still use calculators? Take an interpreter for your scripting language of choice or take emacs or whatever and you can do anything a calculator does and even more. For example you will never have to type all those number columns because you can just copy and paste them or read them from files.

There are still occasions when I use a real calculatot. Like going to the hardware store to buy tiles and working out how many of each size I would need and what it will cost. Yes I could take a computer but a calculator in my jeans pocket is much more practical. Plus if I drop it when stacking the tiles in the car its not much of a loss compared to a computer

Are you kidding?

[Any Web Loco]

F***ing Google it. Seriously - is this what Ask Slashdot's become?

Re:Are you kidding?

[coolmadsi]

F***ing Google it. Seriously - is this what Ask Slashdot's become?

Do you think there are many questions that can't be searched on Google (and so would be a valid "Ask Slashdot" Question), or do you think that "Ask Slashdot" is now mostly redundant?

How 20th Century

[Ropati]

Why use keypads?

I've learned to do verbal calculations with my Android phone. Just say the calculation you want into voice search and Google will return the results. There is no need to carry both a phone and a calculator, and speaking the formula is much easier than trying to use a miniature calculator keyboard.

I always figured the phone was wrong

[damn_registrars]

Being as everything important that I use has the 7-8-9 on top, with the exception of the phone, I figured the phone had it wrong. And considering how seldom anyone touch dials anymore, the phone being the odd one out seems less relevant all the time.

Really, when was the last time you dialed something on your phone by its number? Every number I call often on my phone is in the memory of my phone, so I'm dialing by name. The memory of my phone far exceeds the total number of people and places I have any reason to call, so I just enter every number once and save it under a name I can remember.

Re:I always figured the phone was wrong

[Xtifr]

Being as everything important that I use has the 7-8-9 on top, with the exception of the phone

Really? You never use ATMs? Point-of-sale card readers? Doors with keypad locks? I suspect you're in a fairly small minority if that's the case.

I agree that the complaint seems overblown, but some of the dismissive responses seem equally so.

Re:I always figured the phone was wrong

[damn_registrars]

Being as everything important that I use has the 7-8-9 on top, with the exception of the phone

Really? You never use ATMs?

I use an ATM only when I need cash, which isn't very often. Are you saying I should go to the strip club more often?

Point-of-sale card readers?

You need the PIN pad only if running your card as debit. I can run my check card as VISA without needing the PIN pad.

Doors with keypad locks?

I haven't used a door with a keypad lock in over 5 years.

I suspect you're in a fairly small minority if that's the case.

That or you are assuming that too many people live your life.

I agree that the complaint seems overblown, but some of the dismissive responses seem equally so.

Its a matter of perspective, friend. If most of what you need and use most often has the 789 on top, then the phone might be the wrong one. And if you don't actually dial your phone often, then even more so.

Wrong question for geeks

[Okian Warrior]

This is the wrong question to ask geeks. They have no muscle or spatial memory, and don't care whether anyone else does.

Or haven't you noticed?

Across all of your free/OSS software:

1) What keys do you type to search for text?
2) What keys do you type to activate File->Save?
2a) Is File->Save greyed out if there are no changes?
3) When you hit shift-ctrl-end-del, does this take out the trailing CR/LF or not?
4) Where are the preferences - under "File", "Help", "Document", "Edit", "Tools"?
5) Are the preferences called "preferences", "options", "settings"?
6) Using the debugger - which F keys activate step-in/step-out/step-over?
7) When you click in a text box, does it insert the cursor or select the entire line?

Geeks care not one whit about compatibility. They make their interfaces by what "seems" right at the time, with no regard for the greater universe of programs in the world.

Good luck with your answer. Maybe you can create your own calculator online.

Re:Wrong question for geeks

[inhuman_4]

VIM!

1) : /
2) : w
2a) Everything is grey!
3) d $
4) .vimrc
5) Good question.
6) Good point.
7) What is this "click" you speak of?

You make a good point about FOSS. The lack of standardization is a headache and led me to just write everything I can in Vim.
However I think the issue has more to do with the users than the programers. Geeks tend to learn everything about the programs they use, and this can be a serious time investment. It would take a very long to become as proficient in program B after having used program A for years, so many people just don't bother.

I think this is why Vim and Emacs still have such a big following despite being so old. Once you have learned all the neat little tricks, going to any other system is painful because you don't know how to do stuff anymore. I know I will never switch from Vim to Emacs, not because one is better than the other, but because I have spent so much time mastering Vim that switching to Emacs would be to painful.

Re:Wrong question for geeks

[quenda]

1) What keys do you type to search for text?

Mostly I'm using Firefox, so "none" - I just type the text I'm seeking.
Except on Slashdot, where all kinds of weird random shit happens when you try that!

Re:Wrong question for geeks

[pianosaurus]

1) What keys do you type to search for text?

Searching is not possible.

2) What keys do you type to activate File->Save?

All input is written directly to disk.

2a) Is File->Save greyed out if there are no changes?

What is this greyed out you speak of?

3) When you hit shift-ctrl-end-del, does this take out the trailing CR/LF or not?

Not. It does however write two control characters to the file.

4) Where are the preferences - under "File", "Help", "Document", "Edit", "Tools"?

5) Are the preferences called "preferences", "options", "settings"?

There are no preferences.

6) Using the debugger - which F keys activate step-in/step-out/step-over?

There is no debugger interface.

7) When you click in a text box, does it insert the cursor or select the entire line?

CLICK? TEXT BOX? Hand in your geek card this very minute, young man!

Why can't they...

[Genda]

Make a phone pad like the number line on the top of my keyboard... all digits straight in a row... duh!

Re:Why have a calculator?

[JonySuede]

some of us still believe in the concept of privacy and consequently do not want to wear a bug and tracking device with us all the time....

One of the most stupid /. questions EVER

[bLanark]

I am rich with mod points, but almost every comment is bang on the nose - I can't seperate them. Consider yourself +1 insightful, if you posted.

(I used to struggle a bit with this myself, 20 years ago, but these days I hardly ever dial a number. The PC layout is what I like now. )

Odd pads

[Teun]

I understand your problem.

But only because the GF has a phone with a calculator style keyboard, it confuses me every time!

Re:MOD PARENT DOWN.

[jhoegl]

WoWs troll quota is filled for the day.

He was waiting at Home Depot for the job, but they didn't take him.

Gimme a break

[DNS-and-BIND]

It is not difficult to "rememberize" 10-key layout versus reverse 10-key. This "feat" is well within the capabilities of subhumans who live in flyover territory, much less elite geeks who can get their questions approved on slashdot.org. I had no problem with it myself, back when I worked for a phone company and had to switch back and forth between the IBM-PC 10-key pad and the telephone reverse 10-key. The mouthbreathers I worked with picked it up after a few weeks.

Actually, now that I think about it, what's the big deal? Any uber-geek should be able to adjust to these circumstances quite quickly. And honestly: times aren't like they were years ago when I had to dial 50 phone numbers per day, and enter 50 results into the computer. Who the hell, in this day and age, sits down next to a "push-button" landline telephone and keys in the numbers for his friends? We all use mobile phones these days, it's all in the phone book. In the last...five, ten years? I've had to use my 31337 ten-key skillz exactly...zero times. When you meet a new person, you just punch in their number once: either by soft keyboard (iPhone) or by 1234567890 above qwertyuiop (one of those old-fashioned "blackberry" phones).

Oh, I think I see. On the submitter's web page, we can see the following bit of sublime insight:

Why are the lights in microwave ovens inconsistent with the lights in refrigerators? The light in the refrigerator is on when the door is open, and supposedly off when the door is shut. The light in the microwave is on when the door is shut, and off when the door is open.

Yeah, he's an idiot.

swap hands?

[TempeTerra]

I'm can't tell if this is a dumb idea or a brilliant one. What about training yourself to type phone numbers with your left hand? It might be just enough to segregate out the muscle memory. It would be moderately annoying while you're training yourself, but if you're re-wiring calculators and remapping keyboards it can't be much more troublesome.

Unfortunately I don't use either kind of numpad much myself so I can't try it - I would just to see if it works.

Re:Easy

[TheABomb]

You've clearly never looked at a photo of a girl on MySpace or a dating website. Phones are always held in front of bathroom mirrors, so it all works out.

Something of interest

[guardiangod]

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2019/why-do-telephone-keypads-count-from-the-top-down-while-calculators-count-from-the-bottom-up

The story begins back in pre-calculator days, when there were cash registers. We're not talking cash registers that scan, but mechanical things where you actually had to push the keys hard to punch numbers. The cash registers were designed with 0 at the bottom, and the numbers going up. Why did cash registers choose this organization? I was unable to find any clear answer. These were the days before customer surveys and mass marketing opinion polls. The people who designed cash registers evidently just thought it was the obvious approach--lowest numbers at the bottom, highest numbers at the top.

In fact, the earliest cash registers had multiple keys. You didn't enter 7 and 9 and 5 for $7.95; there was a separate column of keys for each decimal place. Think of a matrix, with the bottom row of 0's, next a row of 1's, then a row of 2's, going up. The right hand column would represent single units (cents), the next column for tens, then hundreds, etc. So, to enter $7.95, you'd actually enter 700, then 90, then 5.

When calculators made their appearance, they copied the cash register format. In fact, some of the earliest mechanical calculators (ah, how my wife loved her Friden!) had multiple columns, like the cash register. The earliest calculators had keypads that were ten rows high and generally 8 or 9 columns across.

When hand-held and electronic calculators made their appearance, they copied the keypad arrangement of the existing calculators--0 at the bottom, 1-2-3 in the next row, 4-5-6 in the next row, and 7-8-9 in the top row, from left to right. So, basically, they evolved from the cash register.

The Touch-Tone phone emerged in the early 1960s. Before that, there were rotary dials, with the numbers starting at 1 at the top right and then running counterclockwise around the dial to 8-9-0 across the bottom. Why would "0" be on the bottom? Probably because the dialing mechanism was pulse, not tone. Since they couldn't do zero pulses for 0, they did ten pulses, and hence put the 0 at the end. (Thanks to Radu Serban for this suggestion.)

There seem to be three reasons that the Touch-Tone phone keypad was designed as it was:

(1) Tradition. People were used to dialing with 1-2-3 on top, and it seemed reasonable to keep it that way.

(2) AT&T (the only phone company at the time) did some research that concluded there were fewer dialing errors with the 1-2-3 on top (possibly related to the traditional rotary dial layout).

(3) Phone numbers years ago used alphabetic prefixes for the exchange (BUtterfield 8, etc.). In the days of rotary dials, no doubt it seemed logical to put the letters in alphabetical order, and to associate them with numbers in numerical order. The number 1 was set aside for "flag" functions, so ABC went with 2, DEF with 3, and so on. When Touch-Tone phones came in, keeping the alphabet in alphabetical order meant putting 1-2-3 at the top.

So there we have it. Basically, calculator keypad design evolved from cash registers, while telephone keypad design evolved from the rotary dial. Tradition has kept them that way ever since.

Re:Something of interest

[RogerWilco]

This is not the whole story. I know that at least in Sweden a different rotary phone system was used. With the numbers the other way around or something like that. Memories are from 25+ years ago, so a bit hazy, but I definitely remember being baffled the first time I had to use a Swedish phone.

I also know that early "Adding machines", before cash registers, also used the lowest at the bottom layout. I think it was mechanically easier to build. I still have a 100 year old one here, once used by my grandfather.

Re:Something of interest

[westlake]

Why would "0" be on the bottom? Probably because the dialing mechanism was pulse, not tone. Since they couldn't do zero pulses for 0, they did ten pulses, and hence put the 0 at the end.

Dialing "0" connected you to an operator.

Two decades before the dial phone became common, kids were taught how to call the operator in an emergency. Dialing "0" was always a bit special, like placing an expensive long distance call.

Something worth thinking about before you commit to it and something you might want to make a little bit more difficult to avoid wasting the operator's time.

Re:Something of interest

[michaelmalak]

After some Googling of images of antique cash registers, I'm guessing that cash registers had the lower numbers at the bottom because their predecessors, the tablet/placard cash registers, had the lower numbers at the right (i.e. both are reverse of reading order). This is in contrast to the adder of James Ritty, who invented what is considered the very first cash register (though with no drawer), which had the lower numbers on the left. Why did NCR swap it? My guess is that the tablet/placard cash registers had windows on both front and back for the tablets, so both the customer and the operator could see the tablets, and the reverse ordering was done for the convenience of the customer so that the lower-numbered tablets would pop up on the left, from the customer's perspective, in reading order.

If all that is true, then it is calculators and computer keyboard numerical keypads that are backwards, not phones, and for an ease-of-manufacturing issue that is no longer relevant.

Re:Why have a calculator?

[larry bagina]

You've spent years -- years -- wondering why people use calculators instead of carrying a computer with them at all times in case they need to use emacs or matlab or wolfram or python or tex or metapost or c++ templates to add a couple numbers together?

At any point did you consider asking someone that was using a calculator?

You know what, maybe you should submit it to ask slashdot. It could be front page material.

Fix yourself first

[xrayspx]

Rather than adapting every device you touch, maybe you should look at why you need to do this.

In fact, you've decided that the telephone way is "right" and that every computer keyboard is "wrong". Since you only interact with a couple of phones, probably, might it not be easier to change them than it is to change every computer, TI calculator, keypad, etc? Shouldn't be too hard to write an "inverted dialer" app for whatever phone you have.

I fly on a numeric keypad, I can also dial my phone fast. The reason for that is that these are two devices that do two different things. I don't seem to have any spatial memory issues since you interact with them in different contexts.

tldr; YIKES!

Never had a problem

[misosoup7]

I just don't see why this is such a big deal. I've never found it difficult to switch between the two... I just automatically do it. You're brain is not so limited in that it can only remember to do one thing. If you use different fingers when you're using different things, you end up with three distinct sets of spatial/muscle memory that does not conflict.

For calculators, I use both thumbs
For phones, I use my index finger on the phone number pad. To type, I use both thumbs, I think this is left over from my TI-89 days in High School
For computer's number pad, I use Index, Middle, and Ring fingers for the 3 columns.

Of course it doesn't help if you're one of those people who only use their index finger to type everything....

Re:Easy

[Oxford_Comma_Lover]

Better idea: either use the phone pad as a calculator or write an app for it that uses the layout you prefer.

Stick with PC layout, use software dialers

[Fencepost]

Seriously, you should be able to learn to handle the difference between small push buttons on a phone (at an angle that PC keyboards don't use) and keypad buttons on a keyboard. Also, why would you need to be doing enough on a phone keypad to make that an issue? If you're doing telemarketing calls or the like you shouldn't be using a plain phone, use software.

In general, this goes beyond a waste of time into the level of trolling.

Another stupid Timothy post

[Doctor Morbius]

Isn't Timothy the editor who made the other stupid post about getting rid of time zones?

Re:Why have a calculator?

[maxwell demon]

This is something that has bugged me for years: why do people still use calculators?

Because it's vastly more convenient to use than the computer calculators. For one, I don't have to switch programs; also I've got a keypad optimized for the task, with small keys which are ideal for that task (but would be far too small to use for general typing). If I'm anyway in a program which allows calculating (e.g. Mathematica or gnuplot, or the browser, thanks to Google), I'm more likely to just type my calculation into it. However otherwise it's just more comfortable to long for the calculator.

The only person this could possible be a problem

[Outtascope]

to is a telemarketer or collections agent, and one that doesn't have an automated dialing system at that. So clearly the solution to damaged muscle memory is to grab a wire coat hanger, bend it in half till it breaks, then place each piece (while holding them) into the two vertical slots on an electrical outlet. Careful though, this can damage any equipment on the circuit so I would suggest unplugging your clothes drier or stove and using one of those since the circuit is isolated. This will help stimulate muscle memory so that you will seamlessly be able to use both configurations after several such treatments.

(Note: Since you probably are a telemarketer, and thus near clinically brain-dead, let me explain that this is sarcasm and in no way is it a good idea to stick things into electrical outlets the weren't intended to go there. Doing so might cause serious injury such as brain damage, and as if telemarketers weren't enough of a problem already I certainly don't want to be responsible for creating another politician.)

People still dial telephones?

[swebster]

this field intentionally left blank

It's a fair point

[Okian Warrior]

That's a fair point. Geeks aren't intimidated by learning a completely new paradigm.

That's one reason that older folks have such a hard time with newer systems - they have to learn something new every time. It would be nice if there were some type of "conceptual consistency" across applications; so that, for instance, burning a CD-ROM would involve conceptually the same actions across all programs.

The poster specifically called out muscle memory, which has always been a big headache for me. My system has a rich environment of both free and closed-source tools, and it's impossible to get muscle memory for anything.

For example, I have to turn off the "electric indent" feature in everything. I can type quickly if I know what all the keys do, but electric indent is *different* for all languages and in all editors. If TAB goes in 4 spaces always, then it's much faster to type two tabs rather than try to keep straight what a single "electric" tab does.

Wouldn't it be easier to change the phone instead?

[gman003]

Let's do some simple math. From your description, you've got one phone, one computer and one calculator. Two of those devices use the same number layout - the calc and the comp. So wouldn't it be more logical to change the one device (the phone), not the other two? I can't speak from experience, but I imagine it wouldn't be hard to do on an Android phone, and you've already shown a willingness to do minor soldering if necessary.

In any case, I don't think muscle memory is really an issue. When typing on a computer or a calculator, I normally enter with my index and middle fingers. On my phones (cellular and most of my cordless landlines), I generally use my thumb. Since different muscles are being used, there's nothing messing up my muscle memory.

If you're really that concerned

[93 Escort Wagon]

Buy yourself a rotary phone - problem solved.

Oh, and you may have to build another intermediate device that converts the click/pulses to duo-tones.

Or, better yet - build an intermediate device that converts the pulses and analog audio signal to IP, hook it up to your cable modem and cancel your phone service. Call it an "Internet Telephone" - you'll make millions. Be sure you're first to file though.

More importantly...

[Twinbee]

More important than the orientation of the keypad is a calculator that takes full advantage of a keyboard and full-size screen.

It turns out >99.9% of PC calculators don't feature a full multi-line notepad/scratchpad style, or on-the-fly 'answer-as-you-type' functionality. A bit like the amazing Soulver on the Mac actually, which was the only calc so far to realize that traditional paper-roll calcs are doing it all wrong.

Hence the inevitable quick shameless plug for my 'OpalCalc' calculator which I only just released yesterday. I'll let the page speak for itself :)
http://www.skytopia.com/software/opalcalc/

hsilop

[rossdee]

The problem I have with calculators is not being able to find the ENTER key

Using telephones enough...

[Trapick]

...to make this matter at all? Really? It's simple: get your speed up on calculators/numpads, and be slow as heck when manually dialing the phone. It'll work out better in the end.

OCD Much?

[thechemic]

So if it "destroys muscle- and spatial- memory" as you say, that means that everytime you wanted to use your phone you would have to sit down in a chair, find a horizontal flat surface to lay your phone on and then dial with 3 fingers? Or do you do it the other way around? Everytime you want to use a numeric keypad on a keyboard you have to pick up the keyboard off the desk and double-thumb the numbers in? I have GOT to see this in action!

Re:OCD Much?

[mrmeval]

I don't see the point. I switch between them without thought. I also use some programmable logic controllers that have "F1 through Fx" on the right side of the monitor, bottom of the monitor, left of the monitor or all three. The touch screen can have whatever the programmer chooses though most use the built in number pad which is the same as a keyboard, not a calculator.

If you're not flexible you'll surely stress yourself to death.

Re:OCD Much?

[Chapter80]

I learned to tell time at a much younger age then I learned how to use a phone or a calculator. And so I learned that numbers are arranged in a circle, with 1 just to the right of the top most point, 3 straight across to the right, 6 at the bottom, and 9 to the left.

Clearly the correct layout for a numeric keypad should reflect this!

Using mod 10 (or, looking at the last digit), the correct layout to match clocks would look something like this:

X 2 X
9 X 3
X 6 X

with the extra key going on the bottom somewhere. Filling in the corner numbers, rounding down, it should look like this:

0 2 1
9 X 3
7 6 4

The middle of a clock often has a couple of circles on an axle - one for the hour hand and one for the minute hand, so it probably makes sense to put the number 8 in the middle (which also has two circles). This leaves 5 for the extra key, and a final configuration of:

0 2 1
9 8 3
7 6 4
- 5 -

Does anybody know where I can get calculators and phones that match this obviously superior design?

-D. Vorak

Re:OCD Much?

[kabloom]

Youngster. I learned to use a phone back when phone dials were circular.

Re:OCD Much?

[Chapter80]

Ah, I wish I was young. My first phone number only had 6 digits. Well, technically it was 2 letters and 4 digits.
(this was USA)

Re:OCD Much?

[Uzuri]

Would it make you feel any better to know that someone still has one of those, working, in their upstairs bedroom.

I wouldn't know who that is or anything. *whistles*

Re:Why have a calculator?

[kwark]

Just turn of the radios (aka airplane mode). Or put a PIN on your SIM, reboot and don't enter the PIN if you want to be sure your cellphone manufacturer turns of the GSM radio. The paranoid can always remove the SIM card and put the device in a faraday cage for the appropriate signals.

The real question was where to put Q and Z

[billstewart]

Some time back in the mid-80s we had a session at a symposium at Bell Labs on "The Question that Just Won't Die - Where to put the Q and the Z". TouchTone(tm) was pretty much universal by then, and phone-type number pads were showing up on cash machines, and there were starting to be all sorts of input systems for text on the pads. The problem is that it's really arbitrary and none of the answers are perfect, and also it's a simple enough question that everybody knows enough to comment on it.

The two most common answers were "PQRS on 7, WXYZ on 9" and "QZ on 1". Phone people didn't like "QZ on 1", because 0 and 1 were still significant to phone switches, plus lots of people didn't like it because it's ugly and out-of-order and less mnemonic. But there were also lots of systems that did variations on "hit the number with the three letters you want, then hit 1 if it's the first letter, 2 if it's the second, 3 if it's the third" or "hit the number with the letters you want N times", and all of those systems would break badly if some people had PQRS and others had PRS (and some of them would also break on Z on WXYZ because they only expected three choices.)

This applies elsewhere, too!

[Ambiguous Coward]

This notion of not destroying muscle memory through similar but opposite motions is really important!

For instance, I often turn right with my car. Doing so involves turning the steering wheel clockwise until the car is going the direction I want. However, I often have to turn left, and doing so involves a motion that is precisely the opposite of turning right.

Dear Slashdot: is there a car that will allow me to turn both right and left by only turning the steering wheel to the right? Alternately, a car that turns right from a counter-clockwise turn of the wheel, and then I'll just use whichever car is appropriate for the turning I will be making, such that I am only ever turning the wheel in one direction. Either solution would be fine: I'm a pretty flexible guy.

TIA!

Re:The only person this could possible be a proble

[Threni]

> (Note: Since you probably are a telemarketer, and thus near clinically brain-dead, let me explain that
> this is sarcasm and in no way is it a good idea to stick things into electrical outlets the weren't
> intended to go there

Let's not be too hasty. Telling a telemarketer not to do such a thing may constitute advice which they may decide to sue you for later. Best not to offer any advice, and let nature take its course.

Your thinking about it too hard

[wjcofkc]

Looking at my numeric keypad I only just now consciously considered that the keys start out 7,8,9. I have been using computers for a couple decades and phones for even longer - I extensively use the numeric keypad on my keyboard and always have. I have never ever had a problem going from 7 8 9 on a keyboard to 1 2 3 on a phone and I am admittedly not the brightest bulb on the tree. The bottom line is, you are over thinking this. You are obsessing and psyching yourself out over six keys in a grid pattern. Stop thinking about this one and I assure you your brain will handle it just fine

chill!

: p

Learn Both

[Fieryphoenix]

With regular use it is not hard to switch back and forth, and you end up with muscle memory for both. You have different muscle memory for each physically different sized keypad that you use and your body knows which to use based on physical context.

Touch-Tone with three fingers

[jabberw0k]

For non-fixed telephones, you hold the handset in one hand and touch the keys with the other hand. And of course you use three fingers. Seriously, you dial a telephone with your thumb? Do you type with your toes, too?

Re:Touch-Tone with three fingers

[ehrichweiss]

I dial all my phones with my thumb since 1) I have the manual dexterity to do so and 2) they stopped making rotary dial phones years ago.

Re:Touch-Tone with three fingers

[Anonymus]

You seriously dial a telephone with your fingers?

I think the last time I used a phone that had a keypad on the wall rather than the phone itself (ie, that used fingers instead of thumbs) was like 15 years ago. There may have been a couple of pay phone calls in that time I'm forgetting though.

Re:Touch-Tone with three fingers

[cskrat]

I use dvorak on a full size keyboard and qwerty on my phone. It only takes a context difference to keep the two muscle-memory sets from conflicting.

Re:Touch-Tone with three fingers

[Thiez]

I type dvorak at home, but qwerty almost everywhere else. Turns out my muscle-memory was in large part linked to my keyboard; when I replaced my old one with a different one after it broke, I spent a day in utter confusion as my fingers would keep switching between the two layouts mid-sentence.

Re:Touch-Tone with three fingers

[Oligonicella]

That's friggin' funny. I know it was frustrating at the time, but imagine a good scene in a comedic movie. It could yield some hilarious (probably wrong) message screw ups. This would be especially the case if only one hand did it.

But it illustrates a good point. Most people are unaware of the tremendously complex memory built into the cerebellum.

Re:Touch-Tone with three fingers

[Xylantiel]

I'm also a dvorak user, who has to switch to qwerty in many circumstances, and it is really funny what context cues turn out to switch you. Often ones you don't expect. My most unexpected one, from years ago, was the DOS font. The first time I was presented with an actual DOS look-alike font in an emulator such that the keyboard was dvorak, i was stunned to find that my hands just typed qwerty. And it was *hard* not to. That taught me that you never really know what the context clues your brain is using are.

Re:Call people

[TaoPhoenix]

Isn't there an App for this?

Make the phone dialer 7 8 9 on top and use your numpad skills!

Get used to it.

[Bryan Bytehead]

When I was honing my data entry skills on an IBM 3741 and a 3742, the 3742 was set like a normal keypunch machine. (the 3742 was actually two 3742s made into one machine)

029 keyboard graphic

0 was at the top, then 123, etc.

The 3741 had was called a "accounting keyboard", and had 789 at the top, with the space bar being the 0.

I learned to be just as fast as the data entry operators, even though I was just the lowly computer operator, helping them caught up when they got dumped with heavier than usual loads (twice a year inventory and accounting).

Re:OCD goes wrong?

[rwa2]

Wow, submitter is doing it wrong. It has got to be *much* easier to change phone dialpads than computer/calculator dialpads.

• speed dial
• smartphones have software dial pads (there must be an app for that, or hack the build in dial pad in the ROM)
• smartphones can copy & paste phone numbers
• google voice can connect your call from the PC, etc, so you never have to dial
• OCR of a picture of a written phone number & autodial (pretty sure there's an app or three for that as well)

The random public phone you encounter would be slow, but how often does that happen? I mean, maybe a little more often than when you're forced to use someone else's calculator (like, say, during an engineering exam?) but still...

Re:Why have a calculator?

[Chysn]

I wish I had mod points for you, sir.

Ridicule is missing the point

[Provocateur]

Remembering how you type the phone number such as 900-mustb18 is lost when you try to demo phone numbers you remember by keystrokes on the phone. That's why for skype or other phone app on the PC, there being no alphabetic characters ABC/DEF limits the num pad's usefulness. And having that same layout makes it worse. Sure slap on a GUI onscreen, but WTF for? ( Like when I have to use some pin assigned to me, that doesn't make sense, I have to resort to the keystroke/positioning in this day and age of alphanumeric passwords with strange symbols required)

Moot point for me

[KingAlanI]

I end up using the top-row number keys, probably because they're close to the letters.

Also, some of the stuff on my contacts list I've dialed often enough that I remember the number anyway, and prefer punching it in to looking through the contacts list

Re:Who dials a telephone anymore?

[jmcvetta]

Seriously dude.. I was going to ask the same thing. Who actually uses a telephone keypad anymore? Even when I use my "landline" (actually VOIP bundled with my DSL, but I digress) I don't dial the damn thing. I can barely remember my own phone numbers - don't know a single other person's number by memory. Just use Google Voice's callback functionality to dial from address book but talk over the (pleasantly non-radiation-emitting) landline.

Get a dial telephone.

[QuietLagoon]

problem solved.

I use my thumb

[slaad]

On the rare occasion that I need to input a phone number onto a phone keypad I use my thumb. I either use a cell phone or a landline phone that has the keys on the phone itself, like on a portable (landline) phone.

It's interesting to note the difference, but speaking for myself at least, I can't imagine being: 1) Using a phone of a type where I wouldn't just use my thumb frequently enough to notice, and 2) Inputing phone numbers manually often enough to notice. Also, I would think that I'd be more likely to want a phone with reversed digits than a calculator and keyboard with reversed digits.

I also enjoy using google voice. And of course when I need to input a number manually there, I use my keyboard's number pad.

Thumbs and Fingers

[Sir Holo]

Use a simple mnemonic.

You type numbers on a computer with your fingers.

You type phone numbers with your thumb. Imagine you're doing that when you encounter phone numbers.

Re:Why have a calculator?

[UnknownSoldier]

> This is something that has bugged me for years: why do people still use calculators?

Dedicated KEYS for sin, cos, 1/x, etc is FAR faster then some bullshit scripting language when you just want a numeric answer.

Friends, fans, foes, freaks

[DragonHawk]

I've been called worse that a freak!

That's a name from Slashdot's user-relationship system.

You can tell the system that another user is a Friend or a Foe of yourself. This shows up as a little colored dot next to their username. You can also optionally have it score comments of Friends/Foes higher/lower.

Fan = someone who has marked *you* as a Friend
Freak = someone who has marked *you* as a Foe

Re:Friends, fans, foes, freaks

[dotancohen]

I see. I don't use the /. relationship system, though I am aware of the terms Friend and Foe in it.

So I'm your Foe for wanting a uniform interface on like devices? Fine by me!

Practice, practice, practice

[DragonHawk]

I probably wasn't clear: the muscle-memory that I mentioned was for specific phone numbers, not the keypad in general.

I think the parent poster understood that. Point is, you can still train yourself to that. It's a bit harder, but the left-right orientation is the same, which helps a lot. You just have to learn how to select the top/middle/bottom row for a digit for the session.

In school, I knew someone who had taken the time to practice writing upside down. They got to the point where they could do it almost as fast as they wrote normally. (A mostly useless skill, to be sure, but it's the kind of thing you do when you're a kid.) Point being, you can train yourself to this.

You'll have a lot more luck with that then you will with finding odd keyboards, and then you'll still be able to function on other people's equipment, too.

Don't memorize ephemeral data

[DragonHawk]

For me it is a big deal as I deal with customers and ephemeral contacts, not just a set of constant contacts.

If they really are ephemeral, why are you taking the time to memorize them? Write them down (or type them in) once. Read your notes to put them into short-term memory, dial them once, then forget about them.

If they're worth memorizing, chances are, a smartphone (or computer dialing program for a desk phone) can do a better job remembering them than you can.

Re:Don't memorize ephemeral data

[dotancohen]

If they really are ephemeral, why are you taking the time to memorize them?

Because I will use them many times in a short time period. Also, that is one example of many.

The real issue here is having a uniform interface for the same functions.

What's wrong with the question?

[kst]

Why do so many people object so vehemently to the question?

I personally don't have much trouble with the difference between calculator and telephone keypads; I can switch between them without much mental effort. (I can also switch between vi and emacs, and between bash and tcsh.)

But on every system I use, one of the first things I do is figure out how to remap the caps-lock key so it acts as a control key. In decades of effort, I've never gotten used to having the control key in a position other than immediately to the left of 'A'. If it works for most people, that's terrific, but it doesn't work for me.

But the OP does have a problem with it. The "destroys muscle- and spatial- memory" part seems exaggerated, but it may well be accurate *for the person asking the question*.

Different people have different mental models and usage patterns. Devices and software are supposed to be designed for users, not the other way around.

It's not a stupid question at all.

Re:What's wrong with the question?

[donscarletti]

But on every system I use, one of the first things I do is figure out how to remap the caps-lock key so it acts as a control key. In decades of effort, I've never gotten used to having the control key in a position other than immediately to the left of 'A'. If it works for most people, that's terrific, but it doesn't work for me.

And if you hadn't re-bound it, you would have probably learned very quickly. I'm all for configurability, but in most users case, they're only screwing themselves in the long run.

only one map?

[pz]

You only have one muscle memory map? I know I have different ones for the top row of keys on a keyboard, for the few different keyboards I use, for a numpad (on the right of standard keyboards), and for telephone pads. While there are normally number strings that I only type on one keyboard versus another, it isn't *that* hard to translate.

But then again, I speak more than one language, and can reason in more than one unit system with ease, so maybe that helps. The amount of work to learn a new muscle memory map is non-trivial, but I'd wager it is on par with rebuilding a keyboard, and given my multiple-heritage background, I relish knowing how to do the same thing with more than one set of tools.

It's retarded

[Nicolas MONNET]

It's a non-problem, and the "solution" is bound to be more inconvenient and more expensive than what it "fixes."

Nobody uses calculator nowadays (or at least, only occasionally), and dialing a number, in the age of online directories is .. quaint.

Mr Maladaption

[BluBrick]

This is not Blubrick. This is Mrs Blubrick. You are suffering from Cranio-rectal impaction.

Just some guy

[DragonHawk]

So I'm your Foe for wanting a uniform interface on like devices?

Nope, I'm just some guy passing by who saw your comment and replied.

You might want to pay a bit more attention to who you're talking to. That will help when you're making all those calls to customers.

Re:Just some guy

[dotancohen]

Right, that wasn't you. Thanks.

Re:Why have a calculator?

[Osgeld]

why even use a scripting language? you can do the exact same thing in bash and bc...

come on man I am not even a *nix nerd and I know how to do that

Fine we are not all *nix gurus (I sure as hell am not but see above) for you windows users try this in a cmd

set /a 2+2 ... what does it output

ayep 4

thats it! hand in your geek card, you fail.

User training problems

[Kaenneth]

The easiest solution is to simply mentally adjust all telephone numbers, 555-1212 becomes 555-7878, 867-5309 becomes 261-5903, and 911 becomes 377.

Problem solved.

Wasted time

[bryan1945]

It seems in your grand quest to save hundredths off of a second, you have wasted more time resoldering, re-mapping (OK, not too much work), asking and replying to questions just on this thread alone. While I was looking around, I noticed this same question pop up on some other forums; in one case going back to '05 at SA. I connected the two as that post also mentioned rewiring a calculator. I can't even think of an analogy for this type of madness.

switch hands

[nadaou]

> Switching between the two destroys muscle- and spatial- memory.

dial with your left hand, use the keyboard numpad with your right hand. and don't let one hand know what the other is doing. problem solved?

YBMV (your brain may vary)

Bogus presumption

[Rizimar]

Although the telephone has the 1-2-3 key on the top row, most calculators and keyboards have 7-8-9 on the top row. Switching between the two destroys muscle- and spatial- memory.

Unless your phone and calculator are physically similar and if you sometimes use your phone for doing calculations, I don't see how this can really be the case. Your brain knows that both are separate devices in different contexts.

Growing up in the 90's, I played video games both on consoles and on computers on a keyboard. Most consoles have the directional buttons on the left hand and the action buttons on the right. With a keyboard, it was pretty common to play games with directions controlled by the arrow keys on the right hand and using the far left control and alt buttons for actions. I have no problems playing games with either scheme for any duration of time.

Also, cashiers of various stores use keypads at their registers. Their phones have inverted keypads. But on either, they can still punch in long numbers without any hesitation. (A pointless observation to a pointless question.)

There are no stupid questions

[Zem13]

There are no stupid questions, just stupid answers, as many people have proved in this thread.

Calculators with 1-2-3 number pads

[tchall]

Seriously, get a decent BT earpiece and use the built in voice dialing... forget the layout of the keys...

Danish phones

[Hymer]

...did have 789 on the top row but this was changed to 123 to make danish phones like phones around the world (and to match the DTMF layout).

I still have an at least one phone with 789 on the top row.

If you are concerned with rows, not columns

[DavMz]

you can still hold your calculator upside down.

Disgusted.

[mozboz]

I am disgusted by the quantity of 'don't you have anything better to do' type comments. 1) Curiosity, hacking, changing tools, connecting with people who might have similar problems/ideas - these are all good things 2) There is less than zero value in these types of comments. You're dissing the OP for no reason whatsoever, taking up your time and everyone elses. Out of the people involved in this thread, I know who I think is in need of life enhancements.

I am sure he has better things to ponder...

[DiEx-15]

Like magnets and how they work.

Re:Who dials a telephone anymore?

[Ritchie70]

I only have three phone numbers I'm 100% confident of.

1. My mom's, which is the same number she drilled into my head as a small child.
2. My home number.
3. My desk # at work, because people constantly ask me what my extension is.

Wife's cell phone? I think maybe I know it.

Son's cell? No idea.

Mom's business? probably, but once again, same number as 30 years ago when I actually dialed it a lot.

They're different things...

[brantondaveperson]

..Phone numbers aren't numbers. They're sequences of digits. There is a difference.

My phone number isn't nine million eight hundred and twelve thousand four hundred and fifteen.

So it's fine for the layouts to be different - I expect our brains handle phone numbers and counting numbers rather differently.

My phone is my calculator

[BenSchuarmer]

Every phone I've seen lately has a calculator mode (which is fine for basic stuff). For anything complex (trigonometric functions, statistical functions, etc.) I'll use a spreadsheet on a real computer.

Non-issue

[Askmum]

I don't dial out on my computer and I don't do calculations on my phone. So there is no overlap in use and my brain can make the distinction.

It can't however cope with differently layed out keypads on ATM's, as I experienced in Spain last month. ATM keypads are normally 123 on top, but I came across one that had 789 on top and all of a sudden it turned out that I didn't know my PIN but did know the sequence.
That was a bad trip.

Hateful.

[Merpy]

Wow, I thought this level of hatefulness on Slashdot was reserved only for Creationists, Right-Wingers, and "Global Warming Rejectionists". You've proven me wrong, Slashdot.

Don't worry about context switching

[advid.net]

Switching between the two destroys muscle- and spatial- memory.

I can tell the OP that he shouldn't be afraid of that.

I used to have a qwery keyboard for Unix workstation and an azerty keyboard for a windows PC on the same desk, continuously switching to one to another.
I got used to it.
Later, even without working on such a desk, I kept the habit to type qwerty on any keyboard while on Unix, and azerty on any keyboard while on windows...
That's a context switching very well managed by the brain.

Don't worry, and keep the usual telephone and calculator pads...

Re:OCD goes wrong?

[qubezz]

Clearly 10-key is going to soon be as lost a skill as Gregg shorthand, morse code keying, and communicating without adding your own laugh track. LOL! :)

I did exactly as the submitter suggested, 20 years ago, inverting the number pad on IBM keyboards keycaps in my school (of course without the keyboard remapping to go along with it). A subtle change, except for those who have no touch-typing ability - it confuses the hell out of them!

Time Circuits

[nilbog]

I've noticed that the time circuits inside a standard time traveling DeLorean have 123 at the top. I imagine this must be the organization you are most used to, since you clearly time traveled here from a time when people used dedicated calculators and manually dialed phone numbers.

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