Slashdot Mirror
Bethesda's 'Scrolls' Lawsuit Going Ahead
New submitter person46 writes "Bethesda's lawsuit against Mojang, developers of Minecraft, is going to court. As you may recall, Bethesda is claiming copyright infringement over the title of Mojang's upcoming CCG/board game Scrolls. Bethesda claims that the name and game concept are too similar to their well-known RPG franchise The Elder Scrolls. '[C]ourt documents show that Bethesda lawyers plan to use comments on Scrolls articles and videos from around the web to show how people will confuse Scrolls with The Elder Scrolls. He also added that they've captured screenshots of Scrolls' trailer as a way of showing how Mojang has copied Bethesda because both Skyrim and Scrolls contain mountains.' Mojang founder Notch had offered to settle the dispute with a friendly game of Quake 3, but apparently Bethesda wasn't up for that."
'... as a way of showing how Mojang has copied Bethesda because both Skyrim and Scrolls contain mountains.'
I think I might have a case against... just about every shooter out there!
After all, I can demonstratively prove they all feature the ground, which I believe I knew of way back in the 80s! (when I was like, 2)
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
Come now, we all know one game is not enough. You need at least a best of 3, minimum. 3 out of 5 is reasonable, but 5 out of 9 is where we get reasonable. If Notch were serious, he wouldn't have lowballed it!
"Don't meddle in the affairs of a patent dragon, for thou art tasty and good with ketchup." ~ohcrapitssteve
I thought Maryland is suing Israel and Google to take down the dead sea scrolls for copyright infringement.
The very topic of this pending lawsuit is a forbidden one on the bethesda game studios forums.
From my own expierences on that forum several years ago, I can pretty much assure you that it is enforced with gestapo like ferocity, at the behest of the legal and corporate drones, and the moderator staff is all too willing to enforce such censorship.
Long ago I swore off ever buying another bethesda softworks title as direct retail (I will only purchase second hand, to ensure that they never receive any of my money) and things like this only reinforce that opinion.
Rolled up parchment
That Notch didn't use "the" in his new games title, or he would be screwed for sure.
"Bethesda is claiming copyright infringement," no they're claiming trademark infringement. Big difference.
If I made a movie named "Star" who would sue me first: the Star Trek people or the Star Wars people?
The summary says copyright infringement... I think the submitter has confused copyright with trademark...
The post should be tagged trademark instead of copyright as well.
Bethesda's legal trolls are missing a major marketing opportunity here that would benefit both their organization and Mojang.
If they had accepted Notch's offer for a Quake match, then their marketing dept. could have spun it into a major event. See the example of Southwest Airlines vs. Stephens Aviation over the phrase "Just Plane Smart". The CEOs agreed to arm wrestle for it with the loser giving up their claim and donating $5000 to charity. The arm-wrestling event was publicized and tickets were sold, $15,000 was raised for charity, and both organizations benefited from positive media exposure.
Now Bethesda, regardless of outcome, is going to be viewed as a big douchebag beating up on a little guy.
Notch doesn't have much credibility here. He:
Lawsuit is simply BS. I won't shed a tear for Notch though.
The story claims that this is about copyright, and then links another slashdot story that doesn't mention copyright once.
Every story I can find about this says that it is a trademark dispute, not copyright.
Free unix account: freeshell.org
This is the turf you choose to defend, BethSoft? The word 'scrolls'?
You do realize that the whole 'elder scrolls' part of your fiction is ancillary at BEST, right? Virtually all of the written works are contained in proper books, and the idea of history scrolls as important is left to the occasional sidequest - it's mostly a holdover title.
You do realize that this whole fight is literally a big developer gunning down on a small independent developer making a freaking collectable card battle game variant?
Even if you win, you're just going to look like a complete jackass, in a field that depends on you looking like somewhat decent people when you're trying to sell fantasy worlds to gamers.
This is not the fight to have, not the opponent to defeat, and not a good way to spend your money or life.
Wake up, you're making a horrible mistake, and you can't win this kind of fight, a fight only you seem to want to have.
Ryan Fenton
Scrolls - as in moving screen image with depressed mouse (poor mouse)....
Who is more likely to win this, to me, legal battle being fought for the sake of there being a legal battle?
Quite frankly, I can't see 'Scrolls' as being that unique a game name in the first place. Confusing it with 'The Elder Scrolls' seems like a fairly long stretch given I always thought of it as 'Elder Scrolls' and never 'Scrolls' even before this lawsuit. It's like comparing cats to catapults. *Keyboard cat!*
Sadly, while I've played and liked the previous games, and was looking forward to Skyrim. The very idea that they would actually sue over the word "scroll" in relation to RPGs completely destroys any respect I might have for the company. I hope they realize that whatever they could possibly hope to win in this lawsuit will cost them in good will from customers. As I for one have no intention of buying any more of their products... Add another entertainment company to the list of companies just not to purchase from.
Bethesda blew it. They could have had the biggest PR coup ever by taking Notch up on his Quake 3 offer. Now they just look like douchebags.
Bethesda are required to provide the court with a comprehensive list of points of similarity, including minor ones. If they do not provide a point of similarity, it can be used against them as evidence that their claim is incomplete, that they concede certain elements of similarity do not infringe, or that their understanding of the property is incomplete. The Judge is expected to filter through this list and determine which elements are co-incidental and which contribute to possible infringement, as well as evaluating them for any potential damages, if it comes to that.
He offered them a settlement just as ridiculous as the lawsuit they proposed.
Bethesda is being stupid. Bad PR for them -- although the addicts will buy Skyrim anyway. Most people I know don't call Bethesda's games "Elder Scrolls"; they play "Morrowind" or "Oblivion" or "Skyrim". No one goes looking for "Elder Scrolls IV mods", they look for "Oblivion mods".
And only an idiot would confuse a collectible card game from and indie publisher with a single-player RPG from a major software house. By all the gods, am I going to be sued by Bethesda because my novels have mountains and scrolls in them? Sheesh.
While I'm sure Bethesda doesn't care about my opinion or my money, I will not be buying Skyrim, nor will I purchase any other Bethesda products, or products that they are involved in. I will, however, buy Scrolls from Mojang.
All about me
Well thanks to this debacle I have herd of an interesting new game and signed up for the Alpha..... I also own Oblivion, but I doubt that I will be giving any more money to Bethesda.....seriously mountains???? WTF
@Random_Adam
Sometimes a sig doesn't have to be funny!!
Mojang founder Notch had offered to settle the dispute with a friendly game of Quake 3, but apparently Bethesda wasn't up for that."
Yes, because he is an idiot.
Not at all. This is equal parts a legal battle and a PR battle.
Minecraft has a significant amount of credibility. It is a beloved name, and has a lot of goodwill.
And so do the Eldar Scrolls and Bethesda.
By making his claim, he was giving them an out to retain some face, and reinforced his persona of the gamer everydude gone successful.
By refusing it, Bethesda comes across as a soulless corporate entity.
But lets not forget the major problem with this whole mess. Bethesda is claiming the ownership of the concept of Scrolls in video games. This is something that has a laughable amount of prior history, and should be laughed out of court. SHOULD being the key words here.
Any game developers on /. care to file a friend of the court brief regarding this case? It could be your studio that gets dragged into litigation next.
Go ahead and search on http://tess2.uspto.gov/ for "scrolls"
With a filing date of May of this year, Mojang applied for a word mark on the word "Scrolls". Check the link, but this is just some of the claims they're making:
"Computer games; video games; computer software; computer and video games software; computer software downloaded or downloadable; computer software publications downloaded; interactive entertainment software; data recorded electronically from the Internet; data recorded in machine readable form from the Internet; discs, tapes, cartridges, CD-ROMs and other magnetic, electronic or optical media, all bearing computer games software or video games; electronic amusement apparatus for use with television receivers; electronic games apparatus; home video game machines"
Maybe a lawyer can come along and clarify if this is Bethesda being paranoid or if they're justified in feeling threatened.
...so which of the two is a remake of the 1984 Atari 8-bit game The Scrolls of Abadon? Darn confusing titles! Star Trek vs. Star Wars, Miami Vice vs. CSI Miami... there should be a law against that!
When the copyright term is "forever minus a day", live every day like it's the last.
From Morrowind on, the game's subtitle became far more important than the fact that it was in the Elder Scrolls series. There really is no brand recognition. Every gamer knows Skyrim is coming out and they identify it as that not as TESV.
Seriously. This isn't them getting a cease and desist for using a word, this is them being forced to defend their "Elder Scrolls" trademark because Mojang was seeking the trademark for "Scrolls." This isn't evil lawyers, this isn't evil companies, it's dumb systems. RPS has a good article on it here: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/08/08/bethesda-and-notchs-scrolls-off-explained/
So what are the chances that Blizzard will go after them next if Bethesda succeeds?
3:::::D
There absolutely is brand recognition. Everyone who's excited about Skyrim knows it's the sequel to Oblivion, and most of them know that Oblivion was the sequel to Morrowind. I could have told you I was excited to play TESV long before the actual title was announced.
If Notch was calling his game "Elder Scrolls" or something like that, the Bethesda would have a valid complaint. Of course, that's not what's going on, and they don't.
You just lost many customers. Most were probably fans.
Lol
Thanks, I needed that. Good ol ac we know and love.
I amsurprised you didn't insinuate that I am gay though. Afterall, if I am not interested in pussy I must be interested in dick, right?
You are losing your touch ac. I expected so much more from you.
Better luck next time.
Common sense won't stop the butthurt.
Nor do I expect will the butthurt stop the holders of hurt butts from slamming money down on Skyrim later this year.
The law should say that the trademark holder must either defend the trademark *or* proactively grant license to use it when it looks like someone might be in violation. IANAL but it seems like the law binds your hands if you hold a trademark. Either you act like a douchebag or lose it.
Honestly, all opinions on the case aside, the summary seems a bit biased.
Quake 3!!!! I'm ready for a quake off....
I'd go so far as to say that it didn't even matter with Daggerfall either. I never heard anyone even casually refer to it as The Elder Scrolls II, even back when it first came out. Hell, I didn't even know The Elder Scrolls was part of the title until years later, after Morrowind came out as the successor to Daggerfall. I've heard similar to those who first played Morrowind, then years later hearing about Oblivion coming out.
Before I made the connection that the Elder Scrolls was part of the title and even a series, I just was more enthused with Bethesda making another first-person RPG than anything.
I wish people learn how trademark works. Every time there is a silly trademark lawsuit we get the knee jerking reaction in the news that the plaintiff is evil. Unfortunately, the way our system is set up, it requires trademark holder to sue no matter what.
Much better!
I am glad to see that the quality of ac trolling has not totally slipped by the wayside here!
But I am a little disappointed that you didn't slip at least one reference to my mother's basement, or to my neckbeard being of such a horrific nature that it even gives RMS pause.
But I will applaud a good troll when I see one. Good job sir!
At first I thougth this whole thing was ridiculous and that Bethesda would likely withdraw before actually making it to court, but if Apple can win a patent case against Samsung over rounded corners on a touchscreen device, I'm betting Bethesda could win a copyright case against Mojang for both games having mountains in them.
... the Eldar Scrolls and Bethesda ...
wow Bethesda infringes on Tolkien now?!?!?!?!?!??!
And those shameless pricks talk about an indie company stealing from them?
-- no sig today
IANAL, but I think I head somewhere if you don't assert your rights over trademark/copyright, you lose them... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acquiescence or maybe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laches_(equity). Maybe it's par for the course to assert your rights upfront, however small, for fear the other party might take advantage of their "free license" to stomp all over your tm's and c's later? I know our IP system is really complicated and mostly fucked, but it's a thought.
mov ah, 4ch
int 21h
The moderator's response (along with the thread being locked):
"The lawsuit is not a topic for this forum. This is a gaming forum run by Bethesda Softworks. The lawsuit was presented by Zenimax, BethSoft's parent company. If the only reason you joined this forum is to discuss this subject, I'm afraid you will be disappointed."
Seems pretty polite to me. Plus it points out that Bethesda has no say in the suit -- the responsibility and control lies with Zenimax, which I hadn't known. Given that fact, they are totally right to keep such discussions off their pages, as there's nothing they can do about it anyway. I guess all these people stating that they'll boycott Bethesda should really be angry at Zenimax.
Here's Zenimax's contact page, if you're interested in actually registering a complaint, instead of just blaming the victim (and given the bad press, Bethesda really does seem to be a victim here).
Instead of buying Skyrim, I might instead take a look at Scrolls. Not because I'm confused, but because a) my interest in this product is now raised, and b) I don't like giving money to douchebags.
From what I remember from class, if they don't enforce their "Scrolls"-Trademark, they are in danger of losing it. If they don't enforce "Scrolls", even if they lose the lawsuit, someone could use "elder scrolls" and say "they didn't enforce scrolls and elder is just another word".
So they have to enforce everything because if they start to allow something, they are in danger of losing their trademark for good.
And now, since they said "scrolls" is ours and the court says "no, Notch can keep scrolls, but you made your claim known", no one can come and refer to this lawsuit as "scrolls was ok to be used, because Bethesda didn't enforce".
meant Galileo
not Gallileo
-- no sig today
one of you smart flash or java programmers whip up a nice web RPG and call it Elder
Let's see if Bethesda bites the hook on that one too :)
Elder Where you play as 1 of 5 elders of [insert nerdy fantasy name here] that are sworn to protect the [insert nerdy noun here] from the hordes of [insert whatever here]
hehe
What happens after being an Elder? That’s right, Death! The Elder Scrolls are just a prequel to the Dead Sea Scrolls. To top it off, The Elder Scrolls contain a sea. And if that’s not enough they Dead Sea Scrolls were found in a mountain which Bethesda freely admits also exists in their game.
All other major studios releasing RPGs recently have been complete douches and put me off buying their games (Activision/Blizzards litigous DRM-infested online only behaviour included). The one, single game I've been looking forward to as a result of all this douchebaggery - and they go and join the club.
Looks like I'll be sticking with small indie games for a long time to come.
Not acting like a Douche would have been granting a licence for, say, twentyfive bucks.
What the holy FUCK?
Next up: Bethesda sues Tibet.
They kind of lost their way in my opinion. They used to make huge games but as shown with Oblivion they took game content out to simply sell it as DLC.
I'll probably play it but not for a couple of years later when all the DLC that should have been in the game in the first place is included in their GOTY edition for a cheaper price (smart gamer I guess).
The way I see it is simple. ZeniMax Media is the one behind the lawsuit. And if it is about ZeniMax trying to bully an indie around then it's time to really send them a message.
Boycotting Bethesda is one way. Another way is to boycott all the ZeniMax subsidiaries.
id Software
Bethesda Softworks
Arkane Studios
Tango Gameworks
Does anyone know of any other holdings? If everyone were to hold to the list that would hurt them more than anything else. However, we all know that won't happen because some ppl are just plain addicted or don't care.
To be honest I don't regret not buying from any of them (except maybe the upcoming release of Rage from id) even though I was a fan of id since before the "politically correct" quote was made.
IT Admins Group: Where you decide the content
I will.
I'll seed it for years too. I have no intention of playing it, since RPGs are quite gay. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but the whole effeminate elfs plus burly oiled men gives me the creeps.
Does he work for Bethesda now then?
This is why I'm not going to pay for my copy of Skyrim :P
Respect for Bethesda: gone. NOT paying for Skyrim.
Grammar nazis are to this community what excrements are to gold.
And China is like Chile - easy to confuse, and, hey, both have those 'Mountain' thingies!
I mean, them going after a game called Scrolls when they have a Trademark only on The Elder Scrolls?
Trademarks don't work on components of the entire string, do they? It is either the entire string or nothing.
Why is this even being allowed? Oh wait, corrupt courts who will happily accept any money to fight a pointless case. And probably still win.
No - I always walk like this......
Notch needs to change the endboss of Scrolls. And maybe change the title to Thespian TrollsPwnd...
after this lawsuit is over, is go over to the Bethesda forums and start a thread asking who is excited for "that new 'SCROLLS' game" coming out soon. ;-P
sigs... don't talk to me about sigs....
But Skyrim pre-owned. Don't deprive yourself of a decent game over corporation politics. You're voting with your wallet, you'll just have to wait a little longer before buying playing. No great less. Going by Bethesda's previous poor record, the game will be full of major bugs, some game breakers. Waiting a while may save you some headaches.
Everyone seems to be raging about this but I understand where they are coming from. It probably wouldn't have happened had they not intentionally decided to release the game called Scrolls on exactly the same day as the new Elder Scrolls game. They only picked that date because they wanted it out the same day as Skyrim.
There is some room for confusion here. If a child asks their non-gamer parent to buy them the new Elder Scrolls game that came out that day, it is entirely possible they could pick up the wrong one.
My Magic-User was using scrolls, sometimes stolen from an elderly person, back in the 80's. I should dust off his character record and have him sue Bethesda.
I don't know the fine details, and the summary seems somewhat inflammatory, but it looks like Bethesda's making a mistake here. Not a big enough one (thus far) to dissuade me from still wanting Skyrim, but they've got another month to do so.
I rather wish they had spent more time coming up with a better, and more sanely priced collector's edition, however.
Leave feedback with Bethesda here: http://bethsoft.com/eng/contact_email.php
I'm still waiting for a sequel to Daggerfall. and Arena
These tiny little tech demos are nice and all but when is the real game going to come out.
Mojang has copied Bethesda because both Skyrim and Scrolls contain mountains
Have the mountains been copyrighted somehow???
*ring*
Zenimax: "Hullo?"
Lawyer: "Excuse me Mr. Bethesda, I'm calling on behalf of my client the Dead Sea Scrolls. We need to talk."
~Syberz
I feel like they'd have more of a case if the upcoming Elder Scrolls game wasn't marketed as "SKYRIM" in giant caps, with a barely-noticeable "The Elder Scrolls V" above it.
That was what I was thinking of. Old UK game company, text adventures. Scrolls were a big part of their stories.
So, when is Manga Entertainment suing Bethesda for violating their trademark on 'Ninja Scroll' ?
I *was* planning on buying Skyrim, but this just pisses me off and makes me not want Bethesda to have my money. I guess I'll have to pirate the game instead.
He has already shown that he's willing to give up the name with what basically amounts to a game of chance (a Quake match would be considered no different than a coin flip in a court of law). There's really nothing to see here.
... the Eldar Scrolls and Bethesda ...
wow Bethesda infringes on Tolkien now?!?!?!?!?!??!
And those shameless pricks talk about an indie company stealing from them?
God Darnit, I always do that. Too much time painting Warhammer 40k stuff.
Was there even a SINGLE scroll in any of the Elder Scrolls games?! I certainly don't remember any. They weren't integral to the plot or anything.
I guess that you did have scrolls for spells? That was a pretty minor item though.
There was a game called "gun". I'm surprised they don't sue every FPS on the market for using their trademark. >_>
This is obviously bullshit, legal trolling. This is going to be TERRIBLE PR for Bethesda, and they deserve it. Somebody needs to put a leash on their lawyers, they just lost to interplay trying to control the fallout franchise, and now they're picking on Mojang, indie devs who are on the other side of the planet. Real fair, guys. Notch is loved by the people. Bethesda is shooting themselves in the foot. And for nothing; nobody calls it "the elder scrolls" anyways, thats just silly. Its a stupid fight for a useless trademark. If somebody comes out with a game called "morrowind" or "oblivion", then I'd give them grounds for dispute. But this is clearly going too far. And they're going to suffer for it.
GCS/MU/P d- s:- a-- C++++$ UL++ P+ L++ E+ W++ N o K- w--- O M+ V- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP t+ 5- X R++ tv+ b++ DI++ D++ G+ e++ h-
Notch is calling his game 'Scrolls'. I'd imagine if he got a trademark there would be issues with Bethesda's name 'Elder Scrolls' because it contains the trademarked phrase 'Scrolls'; Similar to me making a search engine and calling it 'Super Google'.
I think Bethesda is fully justified in this.
Bethesda Softworks, LLC President and CEO Vlatko Andonov said the following in a press release last Thursday:
Look, we're not here to pick on the little guy, but this is a serious problem. We've already heard reports that seniors have been hospitalized due to confusion with the potion-making abilities. We're working on a way to make the poision/potion indicator more accessible to people who are color blind or have other vision issues such as cataracts. And last week, Mr. Gershowicz was found over five miles away from the facility on a stolen horse. I mean, the man was about to enter a troll cave with ceremonial armor. CEREMONIAL- can you believe that? And his save-on-hit skill was only like 120 with buffs. These are prefectly nice old men and ladies, but they do not belong in a world focused on "aesthetic presentation and open-ended adventuring."
Andonov went on to explain that his corporation is the clear and undisputed trademark holder for the term "elder" and warns that other infringing parties such as the Box Elder School District in Utah will be facing similar litigation in the near future.
...I don't know anyone who calls any Elder Scrolls games by that title. It's always "Daggerfall", "Morrowind", "Oblivion", or "Skyrim".
but Minecraft is soooo much better. Good thing the names are really really different so you know not to buy that skyrim piece of crap.
Bethesda law team, here. EVERY ONE OF YOU who just typed the word "scrolls" owes us exactly $29.95. We demand you remit this payment to:
Bethesda Softworks LLC
a ZeniMax Media company
1370 Piccard
Drive, Suite 120
Rockville, MD 20850
...what about the Dead Sea *Scrolls* ? It would be funny if some religious fanatics decided to sue Bethesda for some sort of infringement because of a 2150+ years old "prior art" invention ;-)
He also added that they've captured screenshots of Scrolls' trailer as a way of showing how Mojang has copied Bethesda because both Skyrim and Scrolls contain mountains.
(Insert deity here) called, (s)he's going to sue both of you for using his/her mountains.
What do I know, I'm just an idiot, right?
They initiated the lawsuit because they felt that Scrolls' existence *could* damage the Elder Scrolls brand. But the lawsuit clearly *is* damaging the brand, deeply. I know this because I'm a diehard fan (I reserved the huge Skyrim collection for $165 a while back) and now I'm finding myself embarrassed instead of proud.
How is it possible that they're actually going through with this?
I was about to release my new game Elder, which involves an old guy trying to climb up mountains...
Your signatures belong to me.
And don't forget to put mountains in it too!
If you still would like to play them with Bethesda getting no money, you could buy them from a local buy/sell/trade place. Gamestop is most common, but if you have a local less corporate shop nearby I would buy it from them. Sure you have to wait a bit longer, but you help support your local shop and you don't quite pay 60 dollars for the game.
:)....My using scrolls, sometimes stolen from an elderly person, back in the 80's. I should dust off his character record and have him sue Bethesda.