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Windows 8 To Reduce Memory Footprint

bheer writes "Microsoft's Windows 8 blog has a good post about the work being done to reduce Windows 8's memory footprint. The OS will use multiple approaches to do this, including combining RAM pages, re-architecting old bits of code and adding new APIs for more granular memory management. Interestingly, it will also let services start on a trigger and stop when needed instead of running all the time."

306 comments

  1. About friggin' time... by DaneM · · Score: 4

    ...especially the bit about the services.

    1. Re:About friggin' time... by tech4 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Except for the services part, Windows memory management has been improving a lot with each version. It made a huge difference when they let the OS decide more intelligently where to put resources not in use to.

      Most people who don't really understand memory management will just look at the processes and start bitching how much memory each program uses, or how Windows shows there isn't any memory available (while in fact it's just used for caching things). They're only half-intelligent, which hurts them even more than not knowing at all. The fact is, non used memory goes to waste. Every time there's memory that's free, well, it's just wasting it. It's much better approach that OS tries to use it all intelligently.

      This same pattern of stupid comments can be seen in browser comparisons too. It's always full of people going "omg Firefox/Opera/IE is using this much memory!" while it shows that they don't understand what is really happening. The browser and OS reserves that memory because it speeds up things. If the memory is needed elsewhere, it can and will free it up. That's something that seems to be really hard for people to understand, as the same thing always happens in every browser story or story about memory management.

    2. Re:About friggin' time... by torako · · Score: 4, Insightful

      By what mechanism can a browser know when the memory it has reserved is needed elsewhere in the system? I don't think it works that way.

      When people complain about browsers needing excessive amounts of memory they usually refer to memory leaks, not to intelligent use of memory through caching.

      The bit about how some people misinterpret the amount of free memory the OS reports is totally true, though.

    3. Re:About friggin' time... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If the memory is needed elsewhere, it can and will free it up.

      In theory.

    4. Re:About friggin' time... by mickwd · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "Except for the services part, Windows memory management has been improving a lot with each version."

      Are you forgetting Vista? It's only two versions of Windows ago. Windows 7 certainly improved on Vista, but Vista's memory requirements were hugely greater than XP's, for seemingly little benefit (despite all the little tricks they introduced).

      "The browser and OS reserves that memory because it speeds up things. If the memory is needed elsewhere, it can and will free it up."

      I understand the concept of RAM caching - it's not exactly rocket science. But how does Firefox/Opera/IE free up memory when the OS needs it? What is the mechanism by which the OS tells the browser to free memory?

      I hope you're not referring to paging. Excessive paging to and from disk as you switch between applications is not a sign of a well-performing system.

    5. Re:About friggin' time... by maxume · · Score: 1

      Blah blah blah blah.

      Firefox has drastically reduced memory usage and sped up over the last year or so. Those people were bitching about real issues with the software.

      --
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    6. Re:About friggin' time... by Joce640k · · Score: 1

      Except for the services part, Windows memory management has been improving a lot with each version.

      XP was dire. A huge step backwards in terms of memory management. Windows 7 works a lot better.

      I just opened Firefox, went to this page of text, and it's using 223Mb. I'd say there's still a problem...and it can't possibly be a 'leak' yet because it's only opened one page.

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    7. Re:About friggin' time... by Chaos+Incarnate · · Score: 1

      "Dramatically reduced"? I routinely see Firefox 4.4—sorry, 7—sucking up over 750 MB of RAM, where Firefox 3.6 used to be fine hovering around the 300 MB mark.

      --
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    8. Re:About friggin' time... by ArcherB · · Score: 3, Insightful

      By what mechanism can a browser know when the memory it has reserved is needed elsewhere in the system? I don't think it works that way.

      When people complain about browsers needing excessive amounts of memory they usually refer to memory leaks, not to intelligent use of memory through caching.

      The bit about how some people misinterpret the amount of free memory the OS reports is totally true, though.

      I recall people complaining that their Vista system with 8GB of RAM had no free memory. This was true of systems running with 2 GB RAM and 16 GB RAM. This tells me that much of that was cache but that didn't stop people from claiming that Vista was a memory hog.

      However, you do have a point about the browser. If I leave Firefox running on a page that refreshes itself, like Slashdot, over the weekend, when I come back to the machine, Firefox is using over up to a GB or RAM and everything else is swapped out to the HDD. It takes several minutes for the system to become spunky again, and it usually requires a force close of Firefox. Firefox has pages cached on its own and OS knows nothing about it. All it sees is that Firefox.exe "needs" 1GB RAM.

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    9. Re:About friggin' time... by maxume · · Score: 1

      For exactly the same pages?

      My observations are on windows, anecdotally, people on other platforms seem to have more issues with leaks. It is also clear that experiences vary quite widely with Firefox, but 7 uses quite a lot less memory for me than I remember seeing for versions of 3.x, and it is certainly more responsive these days, at least for me.

      Also, if you want to use quote marks, you should probably put drastically in them, not dramatically.

      --
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    10. Re:About friggin' time... by grim4593 · · Score: 1

      On the other side of the coin... I have not closed Firefox 7 in over a week and it is only using 206MB/8GB. I always have at least 5 tabs open at a time and it isn't uncommon for me to have 10 or more. Perhaps memory usage consistency should be a goal of Mozilla.

    11. Re:About friggin' time... by Joe+U · · Score: 1

      I hope you're not referring to paging. Excessive paging to and from disk as you switch between applications is not a sign of a well-performing system.

      Well, yes and no. If I remember my Windows 6/7 kernel design correctly, it was basically that every program requests memory, and some of it starts getting paged asynchronously during idle time. This allows the system cache and readyboost, if enabled, to really start working, keeping unused RAM to a bare minimum.

      Unused RAM is wasted RAM, but you always need to have a little for the next application you want to run.

      So, paging is good if it doesn't impact the user.

    12. Re:About friggin' time... by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      Maybe Windows should find a better method to report how much memory is "in use" then? On Linux, there is no "free memory" either. It's always been a truism, that Linux will use all available memory, even if it's just for caching. But, I keep System Monitor open most of the time, and it reports that I'm using about 60% of my memory. Apparently, System Monitor recognizes that cache memory is actually "available memory".

      I'm no memory management expert, so I'm not going to get into an in-depth pissing contest. It just seems to me that Windows might make more intelligent reports, so that the less intelligent (or, just less savvy) users might recognize what it is that they are looking at.

      --
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    13. Re:About friggin' time... by Locutus · · Score: 1

      so what you are saying is Microsoft is spinning its wheels and there really is no problem with memory bloat in Windows and everyone else is wrong. I guess that's why PCs ship with only 4GB of memory as standard these days.

      and if Windows has been getting better with memory management with each version, why do the system requirements for memory go up with each version. Is it really doing that much more than the last version? Don't bother answering, I don't really care. From what I see this article is more proof that Windows 8 tablets and netbooks will be like the previous versions and require more hardware and therefore more battery and either be too heavy or lacking in battery life. Are they even making 4GB PoP memory chips these days?

      LoB

      --
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    14. Re:About friggin' time... by jones_supa · · Score: 1

      However, you do have a point about the browser. If I leave Firefox running on a page that refreshes itself, like Slashdot, over the weekend, when I come back to the machine, Firefox is using over up to a GB or RAM and everything else is swapped out to the HDD. It takes several minutes for the system to become spunky again, and it usually requires a force close of Firefox. Firefox has pages cached on its own and OS knows nothing about it. All it sees is that Firefox.exe "needs" 1GB RAM.

      A mechanism would be interesting where a certain process (say firefox.exe) would have a physical memory cap (say 256MB) - it could acquire more but everything over that would be swapped. Only the "most alive" part of Firefox would be held in RAM. Then all the rest of the OS would not be swapped out when Firefox goes a bit crazy. And it creates an automatic side effect where the background tabs are "hibernated" when not in use. Then again, swap is starting to be a relic of the old days so I don't know if it's worth to implement something like this any more.

    15. Re:About friggin' time... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's certainly true on a desktop or workstation, but not necessarily true on a laptop or tablet, where minimizing the memory foot print allows you to save some power by putting unused memory into a low power state.

    16. Re:About friggin' time... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The system requirements for memory have not gone up with each version. Notice that the requirements for Vista and Windows 7 are the same. And, according to TFA, the requirements for Windows 8 are also the same. The memory requirements remaining flat over two released versions and promised to be flat for a version currently in beta does not seem to equate to the system requirements for memory going up with each version.

    17. Re:About friggin' time... by timeOday · · Score: 1
      Nice try, but you can't simply give apps carte blanche to use gobs of memory by assuming it's being put to good use and speeding things up. True, there's a good case for the OS to use lots of RAM for caching, since it's the 'overseer' making all the programs get along and has the best picture of when one app needs to sacrifice for the others. But when a single application is a memory hog, it can no longer play nicely with others.

      Bottom line, most memory-hogging software fails to run well at all on machines with less memory, or even on a decent computer when several memory hogs are sharing space. In that case it's not just opportunistic system optimization, it's a problem.

    18. Re:About friggin' time... by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      Except in practice, if a Windows [XP | Vista | 7] box is dragging tail, and task manager shows physical utilization of RAM at 94%, you can be darn sure that the cause is RAM exhaustion and the disk is thrashing to swap stuff into paging.

      The ONE example I have seen of all RAM being legitimately used-- no matter how much you have-- is Exchange 2007 / 2010. No matter how much RAM you throw in the box, it will reserve as huge a chunk of it as it can.

      For the record, I have 4GB on my desktop and 8GB on my laptop, and I never see a mysterious 80% utilization that could be explained by caching. I rather suspect that if said caching is occuring (which I am told it is), it is not reflected in the task manager's stats as technically that RAM is not reserved.

    19. Re:About friggin' time... by Kjella · · Score: 2

      I recall people complaining that their Vista system with 8GB of RAM had no free memory. This was true of systems running with 2 GB RAM and 16 GB RAM. This tells me that much of that was cache but that didn't stop people from claiming that Vista was a memory hog.

      One thing is cache, leaving things in memory after you've used them. But early Vista had a very aggressive idea of SuperFetch, pre-caching applications and other resources it thought you might need in best Clippy-style. So no matter how much RAM you had, Vista would churn on your disk. I think most people mistakenly identified this as swapping because Vista was out of memory. From what I understand later SPs and Win7 dialed it back to far more reasonable levels.

      --
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    20. Re:About friggin' time... by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      Which is true on Windows as well. Im honestly not sure where people are getting this from; I have never seen a windows box with anywhere close to 100% utilization reported that didnt cause disk thrashing. Possibly people are using RAM cleaners or something, but task manager either does not report the caching as used RAM, or the caching is nowhere near as extensive as reported.

    21. Re:About friggin' time... by hedwards · · Score: 1

      The problem is that if it only shows up on some machines then it's not something that they can do on their own. And it's not just the web browser that can lead to unreasonable memory consumption, poorly coded or bloated web pages, extensions are also possible problems that end up causing memory use.

    22. Re:About friggin' time... by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      That would absolutely kill performance, and could make certain programs unusable. The current system seems to work fine. Having used firefox for several years (since the 0.9 days), I have never seen this awful RAM consumption except around 1.5 when I had about 25 addons. These days I tend to use chrome, but when I use firefox it does tend to remain open for days, with no issues.

      As for the automatic "hibernating" of tabs when not in use, that already happens. Tabs that havent been used in a while are swapped out-- it happens in chrome as well, and I assume it is an OS mechanism. You can observe this with any older relatives who start new instances of firefox when they forget how to access the old instance, and leave them all running for months. When you finally try to open last month's firefox window, it will have to be fetched from paging before you can close it.

    23. Re:About friggin' time... by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      A) You are using crappy plugins
      B) your profile has been in use for ages, and some corruption has crept in. Try backing your profile up, and creating a new one
      C) your usage has simply increased, and you havent realized it. How many tabs are we talking here? How many are gigantic scrollable blogs?
      D) Youre doing something else wrong.

      I hate to pull in anecdotal evidence here, but Ive dealt with several hundred unique installations of firefox across several diverse platforms and scenarios, ranging from WinXP-7, CentOS, Debian, RHEL, Solaris, etc etc, and I have never seen memory usage in Firefox that was out of line with Chrome / Chromium or IE (when applicable). I myself have been using firefox since 0.9, and have only experienced the issue pre 2.0, and it is highly possible it was due to the scads of plugins I used.

    24. Re:About friggin' time... by tepples · · Score: 1

      So, paging is good if it doesn't impact the user.

      Paging does impact the user if it causes the hard drive to spin up and start drawing current from the battery.

    25. Re:About friggin' time... by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      Its using that much memory because of the incredible size of the page which it has to render and hold in memory as an image.

      And for the record, I have it open right now in both Chrome (1 tab) and Firefox 7 (1 tab). Chrome, between its main process (~100MB) and its slashdot process (~30-50MB) weighs in @ 151MB (at the moment). Firefox, having a single process, weighs in at 140-150MB (varies over time..). When I open a second tab with the slashdot homepage, Firefox shoots to 170MB, while chrome shoots to ~160MB.

      There is variance there too, so things really do not look that out of line. Check your plugins, they can be a cause-- my measurements were taken with 0 addons in firefox (chrome had addons, but they are marked separately in RAM usage).

    26. Re:About friggin' time... by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      . Is it really doing that much more than the last version?

      Some, yes.

      Don't bother answering, I don't really care.

      Oh, I see, that was just a rant. Carry on.

    27. Re:About friggin' time... by tepples · · Score: 1

      Are existing laptop chipsets actually capable of putting one of the two DIMMs to sleep when not in use?

    28. Re:About friggin' time... by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      The problem is that if it only shows up on some machines then it's not something that they can do on their own. And it's not just the web browser that can lead to unreasonable memory consumption, poorly coded or bloated web pages, extensions are also possible problems that end up causing memory use.

      Well, that's the thing, isn't it. Go to a site that runs Flash, for example, and you're invoking a large chunk of code over which the browser has little control. If people hadn't decided to turn the World Wide Web into a giant, animated color brochure but had stayed focused on content, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.

      --
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    29. Re:About friggin' time... by Baloroth · · Score: 3, Informative

      In 7 at least you can go to "Resource Monitor" under the task manager Performance pane, and windows has a detailed breakdown of the way it is using Ram (Hardware Reserved/ In Use / Modified / Standby (i.e. cache) / Free). The last two add to be "available". It also shows how much on-disk cache you are using. Interestingly, 8 isn't using all my memory for pre-fetching any more (it was when i upgraded from 2GB to 6GB).

      --
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    30. Re:About friggin' time... by mikael · · Score: 1

      Try using wget or another intelligent command line http downloader. A Typical slashdot page alone is around 500K.

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    31. Re:About friggin' time... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some of the blame belongs to Microsoft. They could get the system monitor to tell you how much of the memory is unused, caching and in use.

    32. Re:About friggin' time... by cubex · · Score: 1

      I'm running firefox on machines with 512 meg and 256 meg memory sizes. Versions are 3.6.20 on the 512 meg machine running vector linux and 3.5.10 on freebsd 8.1 on the 256 meg machine. I can report that browsing on both machines works well.

    33. Re:About friggin' time... by hairyfeet · · Score: 2

      Actually windows HAS been getting better about memory with each version except Vista of course. For example Win 7 has delayed start services and with superfetch and readyboost RAM is used much more efficiently for the things you actually do. as for why so many services on at once? I can answer that....grandmas. You'd be surprised how many times I've had to deal with someone's PC because they have a "power user" in the family that killed some service like imaging support and now their scanner won't work. folks have NO CLUE how to get to that stuff and most are afraid to mess with it, so by having the most common services running they save a hell of a lot of support calls. Hell I'm waiting on a remote assistance invite now from a little old lady who can't get her sound and printer working and 5 will get you 10 her nephew tweaked something.

      But having trigger on event sounds like a good idea, now if they will only get rid of that stupid ass cell phone UI. I have YET to meet a single person that has anything positive to say, and I've shown the screencaps to over a hundred customers now. The closest I got was this exchange "That is a nice looking cell phone, what is that? Android? I've heard of that, its supposed to be nice....what do you mean Windows? Windows what? Well that is just stupid! why would I want a cell phone for a desktop?" and from the mouth of the clueless comes brilliance. nobody wants a cell phone for a desktop yet that is exactly what win 8 is! dumb MSFT, just dumb.

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    34. Re:About friggin' time... by ninetyninebottles · · Score: 1

      Except for the services part, Windows memory management has been improving a lot with each version. It made a huge difference when they let the OS decide more intelligently where to put resources not in use to.

      I can't really speak to that, but there is a difference between management and footprint. I can speak to footprint. I usually run Windows in a VM for testing purposes or just to run the occasional Windows app. At some point the amount of RAM Windows can access becomes a limitation on usability and more needs to be allocated to make using it anything but an exercise in frustration. For all practical purposes, this is a minimum memory footprint for Windows and a few basic apps.

      For each iteration of Windows: Win2K, WinXP, and Win Vista this minimum memory footprint has increased significantly, requiring more memory to have a usable system and leaving less for running applications. Windows 7 was a mixed bag, usable with some apps at about the same footprint as Vista or even less, but requiring much more for others.

      Most people who don't really understand memory management will just look at the processes and start bitching how much memory each program uses, or how Windows shows there isn't any memory available (while in fact it's just used for caching things).

      This is largely true, but any public forum will be primarily noise. The problem is you don't offer an alternative for measuring memory footprint, rather you just seem to be paraphrasing text from press releases about Windows' new memory awesomeness.

    35. Re:About friggin' time... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      In firefox, set browser.cache.memory.enable false, set up a ramdisk, set browser.cache.disk.parent_directory to point to the ramdisk ... le voila! OS memory management handles the cache.

    36. Re:About friggin' time... by icebike · · Score: 1

      A mechanism would be interesting where a certain process (say firefox.exe) would have a physical memory cap (say 256MB) - it could acquire more but everything over that would be swapped.

      Wait, you mean like the Setting in Firefox / Advanced / Network / where you can set your own cache limit? That kind of mechanism? Clue: its already there.

      If your firefox mismanages cache to the point it bothers you than put it on a diet with the manual cache limits.

      But when its the only thing in the machine that is running why shouldn't it use the memory for cache?

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    37. Re:About friggin' time... by CyberDragon777 · · Score: 1

      In Windows 7:
      1. Open the Task Manager by pressing Ctrl-Shift-Esc
      2. Select the Performance tab
      3. Check the Memory and Physical Memory sections.

      4. Bonus: Click the Resource Monitor button and select the Memory tab to get a nice colored bar graph with mouseover tooltip explanations.

      --
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    38. Re:About friggin' time... by icebike · · Score: 1

      I understand the concept of RAM caching - it's not exactly rocket science. But how does Firefox/Opera/IE free up memory when the OS needs it? What is the mechanism by which the OS tells the browser to free memory?

      I suggest you don't really understand the concept of ram caching at all.

      OS memory management does not rely on the cooperation of applications to free up memory upon request. It simply pages out data-pages on a least recently used basis. Firefox might be sitting on a mountain of cache, but you can bet that 99% of it is not in active use, and the system will simply write these pages out and let some other program use the storage.

      It doesn't ask permission from the application. It asserts control. This is true of Windows and Linux, and Mac and Android.

      You have to go out of your way to write software that can outsmart this mechanism, usually by touching random and widely dispersed segments of memory in quick succession.

      People need to stop looking at memory usage and start paying attention to responsiveness of the machine.

      --
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    39. Re:About friggin' time... by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      It's called a memory mapped file. The OS maps a file into virtual memory for you, and can decide if that means actual ram or not. It is faster than paged memory because there is never any need to flush it to disk (it is already there) and if RAM is available the program gets a nice speed boost accessing it.

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    40. Re:About friggin' time... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      By what mechanism can a browser know when the memory it has reserved is needed elsewhere in the system?

      By inventing a new kind of interface. How about this, as a possible idea: when the OS is about to swap some pages out of a set of processes, it first queries the process asynchronously (via a signal, some special exception, etc) and says "Hey man, I'm about to fuck y'all up by swappin' yo shit to disk, y'all wanna save me the troubs by dumpin' some of yo cache state voluntarily?"

      The process can either reply "Nah, dawg" in which case the OS will pick some pages itself and swap them out, or it could reply "Fo' realz, I'm unmappin' some of mah shizzle."

      Just because such an interface doesn't exist at the moment doesn't mean it can't be done.

    41. Re:About friggin' time... by Gadget_Guy · · Score: 1

      By what mechanism can a browser know when the memory it has reserved is needed elsewhere in the system?

      On Windows, it could call CreateMemoryResourceNotification(), which was made for this exact reason. I imagine that there must be something similar on other platforms.

    42. Re:About friggin' time... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It takes longer for the browser to page back in the memory used to store that uncompressed jpg than it does to reload it from the disk cache and decompress it. Firefox's "caching" stategy isn't exactly what I would call brilliant ...

    43. Re:About friggin' time... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I`ve seen this posted over and over on slashdot but I am not convinced.

      "If we don`t use all the memory, it is going to waste!"

      So, we gotta find something to fill it up with eh?

      Loading a bunch of crap from disk that may or may not be needed doesn`t seem worth it to me, particularly on a battery powered machine when it`s eating up some of that limited energy.

    44. Re:About friggin' time... by Guy+Harris · · Score: 1

      The bit about how some people misinterpret the amount of free memory the OS reports is totally true, though.

      And not unique to Windows; the Mac OS X Activity Monitor's "Free" statistic in the "System Memory" pane gets misinterpreted the same way.

    45. Re:About friggin' time... by icebike · · Score: 1

      It takes longer for the browser to page back in the memory used to store that uncompressed jpg than it does to reload it from the disk cache and decompress it. Firefox's "caching" stategy isn't exactly what I would call brilliant ...

      Give the speed of disks, I seriously doubt there is a significant difference in speed. The browser doesn't "page back in", the OS does that as soon as the program tries to reference the data.

      As for using the browser cache, each such use requires a hit to the website to find out if the resource is still current, and that's a significant time penalty right there. Its a totally separate issue, unrelated to OS memory management.

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    46. Re:About friggin' time... by LinuxIsGarbage · · Score: 1

      This same pattern of stupid comments can be seen in browser comparisons too. It's always full of people going "omg Firefox/Opera/IE is using this much memory!" while it shows that they don't understand what is really happening. The browser and OS reserves that memory because it speeds up things. If the memory is needed elsewhere, it can and will free it up. That's something that seems to be really hard for people to understand, as the same thing always happens in every browser story or story about memory management.

      I generally agree, except I've discovered the true pig in browser memory consumption is Flash plug in. It can use hundreds of MBs of memory, and retain that even if no tabs are open with flash content. Occasionally it will really bloat up and use over 1GB of RAM, approaching 2GB of RAM, which on my computer with 2GB RAM starts slowing down a lot.

    47. Re:About friggin' time... by LinuxIsGarbage · · Score: 1

      I recall people complaining that their Vista system with 8GB of RAM had no free memory. This was true of systems running with 2 GB RAM and 16 GB RAM. This tells me that much of that was cache but that didn't stop people from claiming that Vista was a memory hog.

      One thing is cache, leaving things in memory after you've used them. But early Vista had a very aggressive idea of SuperFetch, pre-caching applications and other resources it thought you might need in best Clippy-style. So no matter how much RAM you had, Vista would churn on your disk. I think most people mistakenly identified this as swapping because Vista was out of memory. From what I understand later SPs and Win7 dialed it back to far more reasonable levels.

      Generally I don't have any problems with SuperFetch, but a problem I run into is when I close a large program (such as a misbehaving Flash plugin that's bloated to 1.5GB RAM usage) Superfetch will thrash the disk to try and fill up all that empty RAM, to the detriment of memory pages being swapped back into RAM, file browsing performance in Windows explorer, etc. A shortcut to "sc stop sysmain" is useful to try and restore system response at this point.

    48. Re:About friggin' time... by Joce640k · · Score: 1

      The only plugins I've got are adblock, noscript and https everywhere.

      Slashdot shows text. How can a page of text take up 150Mb (being generous) of RAM?

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    49. Re:About friggin' time... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > The fact is, non used memory goes to waste.

      Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. Memory unused
      1) Leaves me room to run other applications. Yes, princess, your program is not the only one I run, it will need to share the machine with other programs. Hogging memory you don't need is not playing nice with others.
      2) Reduces the time it takes to start a program and get it to a usable state. I have noticed very large programs take forever to start. This is annoying.
      3) Lets me run on a machine I bought before yesterday. Not everybody buys a new computer every six months.
      4) Reduces cache and swap loading, making everything go faster. Generally overlarge programs are not using additional memory to "speed up things", it's using it because the programmers are lazy and use libraries and languages with heavy footprints. Far from speeding up things, it slows programs down, first by constantly blowing out the L1/L2 cache (probably a minor effect in most user-interactive programs), second by needing to load and set up all that memory (making startup slow), third by pushing the computer into disk swapping (making everything slow), fourth by requiring garbage collection for all the damned memory, which periodically makes the machine freeze in a way that is excruciating for a user.
      5) Conflicts less with other programs. I frequently see fat programs freeze and fail to take input for a noticeable amount of time (Outlook, Firefox). I never see PuTTY, vim, or TightVNC do this (except if the network goes, but that's unavoidable).
      6) Lets me see how loaded my computer is, and how many more programs I can run before I need to close some or buy more memory. I'd really like to see how much memory the programs I'm running actually _need_, not how much they're holding onto "to speed things up" like caching things they think I'll use soon.

      Hey, I have an idea for all you designers who think you need to cache things in "unused" memory to speed up startup and such. DON'T WRITE PROGRAMS THAT TAKE MINUTES TO START UP FOR NO DAMN REASON. Then you won't need to cache things. Take a look at PuTTY, Irfanview, and a bunch of other decent little programs written by people who give a shit about the user experience, and by studying them, learn not to suck. Hello, Microsoft? I'm looking directly at you.

    50. Re:About friggin' time... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, paging is good if it doesn't impact the user.

      Paging does impact the user if it causes the hard drive to spin up and start drawing current from the battery.

      The drive is already running if you're loading programs.

    51. Re:About friggin' time... by benjymouse · · Score: 2

      By what mechanism can a browser know when the memory it has reserved is needed elsewhere in the system? I don't think it works that way.

      I don't think that any browsers actually use this, but Windows has since Vista allowed memory to be prioritized. It is used by the various caching algorithms to ensure that even though a memory page has been used for caching, it will be given up instantly when memory is needed by an actual application (allocating with higher priority). When the cache later tries to access the page it will get a page fault. If it then tries to allocate and there is no free or lower-prioritized memory it will simply not allocate more memory. This tends to ensure that the available memory is actually put to good use, without leading to the after-lunch syndrome.

      Conceivably a browser or another application which could benefit from caching could take advantage of this system, perhaps choosing a priority for its own cache somewhere between normal memory and the Vista/7 readyboost cache.

      --
      Reading slashdot one-liner: (irm http://rss.slashdot.org/Slashdot/slashdot).rdf.item | fl title,desc*
    52. Re:About friggin' time... by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      By what mechanism can a browser know when the memory it has reserved is needed elsewhere in the system? I don't think it works that way.

      There's no reason why it couldn't. Imagine a memory allocation API that works similar to weak references: you ask for a block of memory, and you get it, but every time you want to use it you need to make another call that'd actually give you a pointer from an opaque handle that you have, and release it when you're done. And every time you request a pointer, you should be prepared to get a "sorry, this memory was reused for something else" from the OS. The OS itself can then see which blocks of memory are used most recently, and get rid of those that have been untouched for long if it starts running out of physical memory. Basically, a fairly simple and straightforward caching service, but OS-wide.

      (Note: I don't know if something like this exists in any mainstream OS.)

    53. Re:About friggin' time... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How are you getting modded 'insightful', and you don't even know what you're talking about? Yet, you berate others?

      (shit, forgot - this. is. /.)

    54. Re:About friggin' time... by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      It doesnt. Some significant portion of that is for Firefox itself. Im estimating from my testing that Slashdot takes 30-50MB, which is normal. Why? Because it ISNT just text, has to be rendered, markup has to be applied, etc. Not being a browser dev, I cant go into too much detail, but I remember reading one dev post that indicated they might be partially storing the pages as images or bitmaps of some kind.

      Regardless, this is normal for webpages today. The HTML for slashdot is quite significant, and topics tend to be very large pages with a huge amount of nested text, a huge number of embedded images, a ton of javascript manipulating things, etc.

    55. Re:About friggin' time... by LO0G · · Score: 1

      You've just described the memory allocator used in Windows 1.0 back in 1984 (no, that's not a typo). For an OS designed for a machine without any form of virtual memory, and one which needed to run on machines with 256K of RAM (again, not a typo) it was a pretty good solution. But the memory management solutions used by modern operating systems are many orders of magnitude better (demand paging trumps lock/unlock for overall resource allocation). Plus you'd have to deal with the apps that call "give me the real memory" and never release it back to the OS.

      And of course apps would do this routinely because they don't care what their bad behavior does to the other apps on the system, as long as their app works just fine.

    56. Re:About friggin' time... by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      some of it starts getting paged asynchronously during idle time

      Battery impact while idle was the point, I believe. Nobody was talking about paging being a good thing while loading programs.

    57. Re:About friggin' time... by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Yes, I know about GlobalAlloc/GlobalLock - but I'm pretty sure that this was always guaranteed to give you a pointer back - it didn't have this "it may fail and you must be ready to deal with it" kind of scenario that makes it worthwhile. It was basically just API-driven paging. What I'm suggesting here is an actual discardable cache.

      Obviously, this is not the kind of API you'd use for all memory allocations. Just those that are discardable - basically, anything that can be recomputed from other (non-discardable) data, but is saved because it's too expensive to do it every time. I.e. for a browser, you might cache a data structure that represents page layout after all passes this way, but the OS may discard it, so you should always be ready to re-parse the original HTML/CSS when needed.

      This is different from normal allocator with paging, because in that case the OS actually has to dump paged data on disk - which may well be more expensive than just recomputing it.

    58. Re:About friggin' time... by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Thing is, both Vista and 7 ARE memory hogs. Best example is to look at one of the most hardware-demanding software out there: GAMES.

      System requirements nowadays are typically "X GB RAM for XP, X+1GB RAM for Vista/7".

      So you can tout "superior memory management" all you want, reality is that when that memory is actually needed, XP is superior.

    59. Re:About friggin' time... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This same pattern of stupid comments can be seen in browser comparisons too. It's always full of people going "omg Firefox/Opera/IE is using this much memory!" while it shows that they don't understand what is really happening. The browser and OS reserves that memory because it speeds up things. If the memory is needed elsewhere, it can and will free it up. That's something that seems to be really hard for people to understand, as the same thing always happens in every browser story or story about memory management.

      I don't care very much about how much memory the browser is using. What I do care about is that Firefox starts getting really sluggish and is a pain to use; I then check the memory usage and see that it's around 800 MB, and restarting Firefox makes it faster again (and it's then using less memory).

    60. Re:About friggin' time... by jgoemat · · Score: 1

      This same pattern of stupid comments can be seen in browser comparisons too. It's always full of people going "omg Firefox/Opera/IE is using this much memory!" while it shows that they don't understand what is really happening

      Are you sure about that? It seems like pretty bad behavior for a user application to suck up available memory if it isn't needed. If all apps did that, which one would win? The only programs I've heard of doing that are server programs like SQL Server that can actually use that memory for caching, and you configure them like that. I'm sitting here running Visual Studio and several chrome sessions each with several tabs (and with SQL Server running in the background) and it's reporting 3.15gb/12gb used (Sql server about 665mb of that). 9086mb cached and 9052mb of that available. At least Windows 7 is smart enough not to show the cache as used.

      On another note, memory prices have been dropping lately, you can now get 8gb (2x4gb sticks) for $40 on Newegg, under $50 for Corsair. 8gb is plenty for about anything you'd want to do short of running a server and at those prices I don't know why you'd run with anything less. So if Microsoft is trying hard to shave a few MB here and there, I'm thinking it's because they're trying to make it work well on smart phones and tablets. I'm worried they're trying to unify it all too much, I for one am not going to be leaning over my desk to swipe my monitor.

    61. Re:About friggin' time... by Locutus · · Score: 1

      because Vista is always the go-to place for an example of fine workmanship. oooow, ya got me. Not.

      And Windows 8 promises from Microsoft? Reeeeally? But hey, they're FINALLY paying attention to the memory footprint so they might even pull off a 'better than Vista' footprint.

      thanks for the chuckles.

      LoB

      --
      "Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
    62. Re:About friggin' time... by kripkenstein · · Score: 1

      I understand the concept of RAM caching - it's not exactly rocket science. But how does Firefox/Opera/IE free up memory when the OS needs it? What is the mechanism by which the OS tells the browser to free memory?

      It depends on the OS. But you can query many OSes to find out how much physical memory is being used, and when physical memory is running low, your browser can free up some caches. If done right, this will happen before any significant amount of swapping occurs, so the browser can benefit from free physical memory to speed things up, but won't hog it so other applications end up starved. (But the downside is that some users see large amounts of memory being used and assume that means a memory leak.)

      In addition, some OSes give explicit indications of memory running out, I believe Maemo did this.

    63. Re:About friggin' time... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unused RAM is wasted RAM, but you always need to have a little for the next application you want to run.

      So, paging is good if it doesn't impact the user.

      I wish people (especially Windows developers) could understand this. They've got these machines on their desk with a bazillion gigs of ram, and very fast hard drive. So when they cache everything (even stuff that will almost never be needed) it works fine. No problem. We'll fill up all this RAM because unused RAM is wasted RAM and if we run out, we'll just page. They've got so much RAM that even when they page it out, just out of normal locality of reference, they rarely have to page anything back in. When they do, they have plenty of I/O left to get it back in.

      But then on my piddly machine, a single app takes up all my RAM. So if I run 2 (or horror, 3), the ones I'm not using are paged out to disk. And I have *slow* hard drives. So if I work on one thing for 10 minutes and switch to something else, I'm stuck waiting (for what seems like forever) for the new stuff to be paged back in. Heaven help me if I'm doing something disk intensive on my box at the same time.

      The OP's comment (that unused RAM is wasted RAM) is not entirely wrong, but it is naive in the extreme. Wasted RAM is wasted RAM. Caching something has a cost. It is especially costly if you can't easily determine when to chuck the cached information. On a fast machine with lots of RAM, the cost is hard to see. On a small machine, the cost can easily be much more than the benefit if you aren't being careful. The Windows OS is starting to get better at realizing some of these things. I remember in Vista watching it aggressively page stuff out to disk when my box was already I/O bound and having everything grind to a halt. IMHO, they still have a way to go until they get the balance, right (the items in TFA are definitely a step in the right direction).

    64. Re:About friggin' time... by rev0lt · · Score: 1

      My big problem with browser memory consumption is that usually a usable browser stack (browser+java+flash) is 32 bit, and the 2GB memory limit is a real problem.
      Regarding memory management, there's a difference between "system" memory and dynamic(heap) memory - the heap memory is allocated at the start of an application using the operating system API, and can be grown or shrinked if needed.The available heap space is usually managed by a lightweight library (usually part of the compiler runtime), and eventually issues the growing and shrinkage requests. The problem is, since the heap memory manager has no control over virtual addressing (ie cannot remap different blocks to contiguous areas), and usually you have thousands of allocated application blocks with very small sizes, fragmentation is a problem. Even with good memory allocation algorithms (best-fit, automatic block defragmentation, etc), there are a ton of unused blocks between used ones, and within the allocated heap space, so even if the memory manager wanted to return it to the operating system, it can't. If the operating system needs the (paged) memory allocated to a given application, it has no control over the inner workings of the heap memory manager, so it will flush the needed space to the swap file, usually using a glorified LRU implementation. If the application has allocated 1GB of memory, and it has the first 50Mb and the last 50Mb in use, but the rest remains free, you have less 900Mb of memory to be used as system cache/buffers/whatever, and, if needed, will have the impact of the swap in/swap out of the unused pages.
      I think Chrome approach of multiple processes (and multiple heaps), one for each window is a much memory friendly approach than Firefox.

    65. Re:About friggin' time... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Are you forgetting Vista? It's only two versions of Windows ago.

      One and a half, really. There's not that much difference between Vista and 7. And post-service-pack, Vista uses little more memory than 7 (though it does still use more AFAICT.)

      I understand the concept of RAM caching - it's not exactly rocket science. But how does Firefox/Opera/IE free up memory when the OS needs it? What is the mechanism by which the OS tells the browser to free memory?

      I don't know of any either, but a really polite application could watch the free memory and drop some of its less-important data when it's low. It could unnecessarily impede performance of those applications but I don't see much other potential drawback other than that it would be nice to have a signal.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    66. Re:About friggin' time... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      If people hadn't decided to turn the World Wide Web into a giant, animated color brochure but had stayed focused on content, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.

      That kind of content would have come along anyway and if we didn't do it on the WWW then it probably would have been on top of something that sucks even more than HTTP. I think we should be grateful.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    67. Re:About friggin' time... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With window vista the areo system kept a copy of everything that was in graphics memory in system memory. When your laptop uses system ram for video ram, you are now using twice the system ram. I watched a channel9 video on it. The engineers weren't allowed enough time to finish it since the vista development was restarted from scratch at least once which put them way behind. Windows 7 Areo is what the engineers wanted it to be from the beginning.

    68. Re:About friggin' time... by atlasdropperofworlds · · Score: 1

      This is more informative than just a 4 - I hope it gets another point soon.

      Resource monitor, right now, is showing that I have 10% RAM free (of 12 GB). 4 GB are on standby (Cached data and code), 5.5 GB are in use, and 1 GB is for hardware (I/O map of the 1 GB of video RAM, no doubt).

      Resource monitor is a very good tool.

    69. Re:About friggin' time... by jonadab · · Score: 1

      The main problem with the vmm in Windows is that it's monumentally horrible at deciding what to swap out. As best I can figure, it actually peeks one CPU timeslice into the future to see what information the next scheduled process is going to need as soon as it gets its timeslice and picks that to swap out now. Okay, okay, I exaggerate. Linux has me spoiled, because its vmm consistently finds any memory that you haven't used for an hour or so and swaps that out on the theory that you're probably not going to need it immediately, which is almost always correct. If you've got, like, a big spreadsheet or something that you're leaving minimized for days at a time, Linux invariably swaps it out; Windows seems more likely to pick something you're actively using and swap it out, only to need to swap it back in again a few seconds later. I don't know if Windows just keeps usage information for a much shorter amount of time and therefore guesses wrong more frequently, or what, but the bottom line is if you have (say) twice as much swap space as physical RAM, a Linux system will perform decently with up to half of that swap space being used (unless you're doing something pathological and rare, like really actively using all of it at once); whereas, a Windows system will always flog the swap file constantly the instant your virtual memory in use exceeds your physical RAM by even a tiny margin.

      Of course, with RAM quantities and prices being what they are these days, and the 4GB (less video RAM) limit having gone away with the transition to 64-bit OSes, it's not nearly as big a deal as it used to be, because it really has become practical for most users to just have enough physical RAM to cover all normal usage, so you scarcely ever use swap space at all.

      --
      Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
    70. Re:About friggin' time... by atlasdropperofworlds · · Score: 1

      You do realize that the video card memory is mapped onto physical RAM, right? If you have a 1 GB video card, you'll need to have 1 GB of RAM available for the memory mapped IO system these cards use. XP can only recognize 4 GB of RAM (XP 64bit doesn't count as a common or usable OS). That means you can't have a 4 GB 6990 in your system and expect to make good use of it. A big part of game system requirements actually comes from the video card requirements.

      All that aside, 8 GB of ram is dirt cheap these days, and no games I've seen even comes close to making use of it all, so it might as well go to functions that make the system run faster such as services and cache.

    71. Re:About friggin' time... by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Except that on xp, you don't need that much ram. I had XP with 512MB 3d card, and I NEVER had problems with computer having to swap in spite of running memory devouring firefox among several other things on the background (I had slightly under 3.5GB of RAM mapped on that system out of total 4 installed - it also had things like a discrete sound card requiring small amounts of RAM iirc).

      It's true that 32-bit limitation is the main limit of XP. However as it stands now, no game on the market will require more then 2GB on XP (as far as I know), allowing you to shove anything up to 2GB VRAM into your machine if you feel the need to show off your epeen. Another gig will make sure you will never have slowdowns alt-tabbing.

      Not so with 7, and 32-bit version of 7 is just a cripple of worse caliber then 64-bit XP. Hell, I'm on a 3-month old 64-bit 7 now, and there isn't a day when I don't bemoan the just how obviously slower this system is in spite of having vastly superior specs all around in everything but gaming performance (due to having 3 generations better video card and CPU). But in desktop usage, it's like I traded in for a worse system.

    72. Re:About friggin' time... by rev0lt · · Score: 1

      The video card memory isn't mapped onto physical RAM, but onto available linear address space, as other devices. I'm not familiarized with PCIex, but at least on AGP (and previous interfaces), you can specify the aperture window size (the size of the mapped window), that can be a fraction of the available video card memory. On XP32 pre-SP2, you could access the full 4GB of RAM, assuming your hardware and drivers supports it, using PAE (enables 36-bit translation using page sizes of 2Mb or 4Mb). Apparently on XP32 SP2, some PAE funcionality was disabled due to driver problems (http://support.microsoft.com/kb/888137). Also, Windows Server 2003 enterprise (32 bit) uses PAE to access upto 64Gb of physical RAM (SP1).
      There are some performance issues regarding the use o PAE due to" windowing" of the available RAM, excess memory allocation, and potential swap file degradation, but a couple of years ago, most laptop manufacturers had available some models with 4GB of RAM, gigabyte graphic card and a 32 bit operating system.

    73. Re:About friggin' time... by godefroi · · Score: 1

      The real problem is that everyone (read: end users) wants memory usage to be a simple black-and-white "in use or free" number, when in reality it's MUCH more complex than that. Even most developers don't understand it very well.

      This fact is, however, very good for the small-but-profitable business of selling "RAM cleaners" which do nothing but allocate a giant chunk of RAM to force the OS to swap out everything to disk, and then release it in order to drive up some imaginary "free RAM" number.

      --
      Karma: Poor (Mostly affected by lame karma-joke sigs)
    74. Re:About friggin' time... by cbiltcliffe · · Score: 1

      A better alternative is to have a 64-bit OS, and run 32 bit apps. My Win7 machine w/16GB RAM can run Firefox up to its max memory usage of 4GB, and it doesn't faze the OS (or other apps) one bit.
      Similarly with Linux, make sure you have more RAM than the max usable by a single program, and you're fine.

      6-8GB would be enough for most people, though. I used this computer for some serious number crunching that needed massive amounts of RAM, prior to using it for a Win7 desktop.

      --
      "City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
    75. Re:About friggin' time... by cbiltcliffe · · Score: 1

      I see this progression here:

      Windows 2000
      Windows XP
      Windows Vista
      Windows 7
      Windows 8
      Windows GNAA
      Windows 10

      I'll leave it up to you as to where in the sequence this feature will be implemented....

      --
      "City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
    76. Re:About friggin' time... by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      In performance tab of Windows Task manager on Windows 7, I currently show:

      3.05 GB in use in the graph

      Under Physical memory:
      Total 4096
      Cached 961
      Available 963
      Free 0
      (closest I could get as it changes second by second)

      So, people look at the free being 0 and freak out, but miss the available and cache that takes memory only temporarily. The graph shows a more accurate picture, that 3.05 is about 75% memory in use, but the free shows 0, OMG!!

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    77. Re:About friggin' time... by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't specifically call out Exchange about this, it is a type of database, and any good database will exhibit this behavior as caching as much of the DB as possible is a good thing for performance.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
  2. Won't matter by Joce640k · · Score: 0

    The apps will soon eat up the difference (if they haven't already...)

    --
    No sig today...
    1. Re:Won't matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The apps will soon eat up the difference (if they haven't already...)

      That's exactly the point. OS leaves more memory for apps. duh.

    2. Re:Won't matter by Joce640k · · Score: 1

      That's exactly the point. OS leaves more memory for apps. duh.

      OS developer (and you) telling the app writers not to worry so much about memory usage? Yeah, that'll work out.

      --
      No sig today...
    3. Re:Won't matter by postbigbang · · Score: 2

      Hey-- 640K is all you're every going to need. You have my word on that.

      --
      ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
    4. Re:Won't matter by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      Hey-- 640K is all you're every going to need. You have my word on that.

      Come back to bed, Mr. Gates, it's time for your nap.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    5. Re:Won't matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is that good or bad coming from the ScrewMaster?

  3. Well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Couldn't hardly make it any bigger...

    Now if we can only get microsoft to stop assuming every home user needs all the corporate crap plus every single useless widget to even be installed on the disk...

    1. Re:Well... by neokushan · · Score: 1

      Because your disk space is at a massive premium, yes?

      --
      +1 IDisagreeSoHeMustBeATrollOrAnAstroturferOrAShill
    2. Re:Well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      SSD and you'll care about your space again.

    3. Re:Well... by Locutus · · Score: 1

      it is when you want a light weight portable device like a netbook, tablet or phone. You don't see big hard disks spinning on the top selling models of those do you? Well you do with netbooks because many of them still run Windows and must have a hard disk. You do know that this memory issue is all about trying to fit Windows 8 on battery powered portable devices don't you? The 4 core ARM chips are almost here so the CPU side of the problem of running Windows will be addressed but that still ate up more battery life and many of the ARM SoCs use PoP for compact packaging but there are no 4GB PoP chips yet. Microsoft must scale Windows memory footprint down even if memory is not at a massive premium. No?

      LoB

      --
      "Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
    4. Re:Well... by Joce640k · · Score: 1

      Because your disk space is at a massive premium, yes?

      My boot drive is a 40Gb Intel SSD and Windows is incapable of using any of the other disks for anything.

      40Gb sounded like plenty for OS+apps. In practice it just about fits, there's nothing to spare.

      --
      No sig today...
    5. Re:Well... by neokushan · · Score: 1

      40Gb is possibly the smallest SSD you can get and by your own admission, it "just about fits". You can get 128Gb SSD's for about 2$ per GB and 256GB SSD's aren't far off that. By the time Windows 8 comes out, those prices should have dropped further.

      --
      +1 IDisagreeSoHeMustBeATrollOrAnAstroturferOrAShill
    6. Re:Well... by Joce640k · · Score: 1

      When I first installed Windows 7 it took up 13Gb, I only have a couple of gigs of apps so 40Gb should have been plenty.

      How it's grown from 15Gb to over 30Gb is something that only Windows knows (and it ain't tellin'). I suspect Google has a hand with Chrome updates and whatnot, but it still doesn't add up to 30-something gigs. ON XP you could always open up the Windows folder and delete all the blue folders but they're not there any more (anybody know where they went?)

      Of course I could go out and spend money to build a dream PC but that's beside the point. Windows is broken when it comes to machines with more than one disk in them.

      --
      No sig today...
  4. Sounds good - but so did Cairo by Whuffo · · Score: 0

    Microsoft has a long history of promoting all the fancy new features their upcoming version of Windows will have - and then leaving most if not all of them out of the final product.

    Don't get excited about their announcements, wait until the shipping version is ready and see what they've really got.

    1. Re:Sounds good - but so did Cairo by neokushan · · Score: 2

      If you actually bothered to read the blog, you'd see that these memory optimisations were one of the very first things they did and have, in fact, been in the code for about 2 years now.

      --
      +1 IDisagreeSoHeMustBeATrollOrAnAstroturferOrAShill
    2. Re:Sounds good - but so did Cairo by klingens · · Score: 1

      You mean they coded everything in .net for the first 2 years of Vista development and then trashed it all when it didn't work as intended?

    3. Re:Sounds good - but so did Cairo by LO0G · · Score: 2

      Longhorn (and more specifically WinFS) was one of the very few times MSFT's ever talked about features that weren't delivered. For Windows 7, I can only think of one feature which was announced that wasn't actually delivered (bluetooth audio).

      Except for Longhorn features, what Windows features were promoted but not delivered?

    4. Re:Sounds good - but so did Cairo by neokushan · · Score: 1

      No, but the memory optimisations are clearly a core part of the OS, so they did it first and it has been working for 2 years. Vista was a clusterfuck for all sorts of reasons, we know that, however unless they manage to find a bug in the optimisations that causes your PC to burst into flames, I doubt they'll be removing anything.

      --
      +1 IDisagreeSoHeMustBeATrollOrAnAstroturferOrAShill
    5. Re:Sounds good - but so did Cairo by mikael · · Score: 1

      The funny thing is that when Windows 95 came, they announced that the PC wouldn't boot into a command line. The original DOS command line would become a virtual machine like DOS box.

      Then they announce that they are going to make the next generation of Windows an application that can be run separately.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    6. Re:Sounds good - but so did Cairo by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Longhorn was a spectacular case of crying wolf that is hard to forget. For a few years every major OS X or linux feature announced provoked a MS press event along the lines of "Longhorn already does it, they are copycats" - then the reality emerged as Vista.
      Do we really have to dig furthur? OK then, take a look at the announcements for successive versions of MS Exchange, and part from inspiring wonder as to why such new features were not in v1.0 you'll see a few recycled pending features that were held over for a version or two after the announcement (and I don't mean subjective ones like reliability or otherwise).

    7. Re:Sounds good - but so did Cairo by LO0G · · Score: 1

      We're not talking about Exchange here, we're talking about *Windows*. Steven Sinofsky, the head of Windows is notorious about not saying anything about features before they're fully baked.

    8. Re:Sounds good - but so did Cairo by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Ok then, so you are thinking about a specific product and a short timespan but put out the general statement "was one of the very few times MSFT's ever talked about features that weren't delivered". We can't see inside your head and can only read what is written so I have to admit from the outside it looks a lot like shifting the goalposts no matter what the actual intention was.
      Either way, the dishonesty shown with Longhorn (can already do X instead of X is planned) and many projects earlier (and I'm sure some later) has left its mark and will take a long time to live down.

    9. Re:Sounds good - but so did Cairo by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      The funny thing is that when Windows 95 came, they announced that the PC wouldn't boot into a command line. The original DOS command line would become a virtual machine like DOS box.

      Are you implying that isn't what happened? Windows 95 only used DOS as a bootloader-- as soon as Windows was loaded, it ran DOS in a virtual machine from then on. Here's the process as described by Raymond Chen: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2007/12/24/6849530.aspx

      Now you might argue that using DOS as a bootloader means your computer "boots into DOS" first before Windows, but that's just being pedantic.

    10. Re:Sounds good - but so did Cairo by mikael · · Score: 1

      What I meant that that before Windows 95, you could power up your PC, got into MSDOS, and if you wanted, just type 'win' to get Windows, as you could with any other application of the time; autocad, wordstar, tempra.

      Windows 95 took away that option. You couldn't just "opt out" of Windows and stay in the boot loader or customized MSDOS.

      Now Microsoft want to make Windows an application again, so it can be run on any device as an option.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    11. Re:Sounds good - but so did Cairo by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      Now Microsoft want to make Windows an application again, so it can be run on any device as an option.

      Unless you're reading a different article than the one I just read, one of us is confused...

  5. Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This would have meant something back in the days of 100$/MB memory... How about focusing on stuff that matters?

    1. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because when you're running a dozen VM's it all adds up.

      Linux host and Windows in a VM is the only way to fly.

    2. Re:Wow by tech4 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, because gaming inside virtual machine works so well.

    3. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because thats all it can be used for. And because the world really needs one system only as the answer to everything and providing alternative options is a sin.

    4. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gamers as a miniscule percentage of the total number of users. The vast majority of users are the ones Microsoft is thinking about here. IMHO, Gamers insecurities are on a par with that of Apple Fanbois.

      Maybe that is why Gamers insist in saying 'But does it run ?' when there is an article about some hardware or operating system that is not windows or a games console.

    5. Re:Wow by Grave · · Score: 1

      This does matter for use on non-PC systems, such as tablets and phones. One of the stated goals for Windows 8 is the desire to have the platform be the same across devices, and while desktop systems with 8+ GB of memory are increasingly common (and will likely be standard by the time 8 is widely adopted), tablets and phones still usually only have a few GB available.

    6. Re:Wow by arth1 · · Score: 1

      This does matter for use on non-PC systems, such as tablets and phones. One of the stated goals for Windows 8 is the desire to have the platform be the same across devices, and while desktop systems with 8+ GB of memory are increasingly common (and will likely be standard by the time 8 is widely adopted), tablets and phones still usually only have a few GB available.

      I fear you may have lived in the desktop world for too long. "Usually" for phones, RAM isn't "a few GB available", or even in total. Try 128/256/384/512 MB.
      The few GB of memory they report is flash memory, i.e. storage.

  6. Services by Oxford_Comma_Lover · · Score: 1

    > it will also let services start on a trigger and stop when needed instead of running all the time.

    Nice.

    Although I have to wonder, why are "services" treated differently than other programs, in this context or any other? Does it have any positive effect?

    --
    -- IANAL, this isn't legal advice, and definitely isn't legal advice for you. Also, Squee!
    1. Re:Services by Junta · · Score: 2

      In a normal program in traditional desktop programming, state information in ram cannot be disposed of willy-nilly. Notably, Android took the opportunity of a new platform to declare out-of-view applications as having ram content considered disposable by default to get this benefit in 'normal' programs'. Hard for Windows to realistically do that. On the other hand, as an Android user, it is sometimes painfully obvious when an app I was 'running' in the background was killed by Android, so despite the promise of how seamless it is, it has warts depending on application implementation of saving and restoring state data.

      With many services, memory resident state information is less important and you also have a smaller, better defined population to roll through. Also, if you are in the multi-window mode, you can't reasonably kill background applications, you never know when the user might be eyeballing it despite window manager focus. With a service, you know it's needed because some IO entry point got tickled.

      Surprised that it took them this long to get inetd though...

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    2. Re:Services by Daltorak · · Score: 4, Informative

      > it will also let services start on a trigger and stop when needed instead of running all the time.

      Nice.

      Although I have to wonder, why are "services" treated differently than other programs, in this context or any other? Does it have any positive effect?

      First of all, it's worth noting that Service trigger events shipped with Windows 7.... they're just making better use of this capability in Windows 8. (This is a common flaw with Microsoft's development process for Windows.... they include some really smart new APIs but then take another 5 years to start really using them thoroughly in Windows itself.)

      But to your main question -- why are services different from other programs? A service is actually a regular program, with one exception -- it hooks into the operating system to receive events telling it to pause, continue or stop its operation.

      Why do this? Management. You don't want 20 different programs with 20 different ways of starting & stopping them.

      A feature the Windows Service Control Manager offers is the ability to run your service in a single pooled process alongside other services that require roughly the same privileges on the system. You can see this at work in the Windows 7 task manager -- go to the Services tab and sort the list by PID. If you ever wondered what "svchost.exe" is on a Windows system, or why there are several running on your system, each under different user accounts...... there you go.

    3. Re:Services by maxume · · Score: 1

      The whole idea of services is that they are available all the time.

      This just adds an api for starting the service on events, which means that code for watching for events can be replaced by registering to start on those events.

      This avoids things like ridiculous HP printer drivers that poll for the presence of a printer by having one service that repeatedly starts and stops another service (hopefully anyway, I suppose something that stupid wouldn't be stopped by an easier way).

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    4. Re:Services by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (This is a common flaw with Microsoft's development process for Windows.... they include some really smart new APIs but then take another 5 years to start really using them thoroughly in Windows itself.)

      Is it a flaw, or is it a decision to adopt a more cautious pace and not go whole-hog after the latest idea!

    5. Re:Services by Oxford_Comma_Lover · · Score: 1

      Interesting. Thank you; I did not know that.

      --
      -- IANAL, this isn't legal advice, and definitely isn't legal advice for you. Also, Squee!
    6. Re:Services by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      ndroid took the opportunity of a new platform to declare out-of-view applications as having ram content considered disposable by default to get this benefit in 'normal' programs'. Hard for Windows to realistically do that.

      Actually, it's exactly how Win8 Metro apps work (and why you can run Win8 on an ARM tablet with good perf and battery life).

    7. Re:Services by Junta · · Score: 1

      Hard for windows *desktop* apps to work like that.

      I'm still dubious on it as I'd give Android apps at best 50/50 in terms of seamlessly surviving termination and restart.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    8. Re:Services by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Hard for windows *desktop* apps to work like that.

      Not really. A similar life cycle model could be used to e.g. unload the app when all its windows are minimized, or some such.

      However, it would be very hard to adapt existing apps to it, that's true. So probably not worth the bother.

      I'm still dubious on it as I'd give Android apps at best 50/50 in terms of seamlessly surviving termination and restart.

      Well, Android apps don't have to go through the approval process to get into app store, so their quality is very variable. iOS is a better baseline here.

  7. CPM by ArgumentBoy · · Score: 4, Funny

    My first self-owned computer was a Kaypro 4-84. The OS was CPM and the machine came with 64K (yes, K) of RAM. When it booted up the screen said it had 63K of RAM. I thought I had been ripped off so I called the company. The tech explained that the other 1K was being used by the OS. So I don't think Windows 8 is going to impress me.

    1. Re:CPM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wish Microsoft would take inspiration from this in designing Win8.
      They need to focus on making the OS more modular and compact.
      Not just for reasons of memory and good design, but so they as well as 3rd parties can actually sell module packs on their new-fangled store they are creating.
      This would make them money as well as making Windows just better overall.

      This ability in Linux is such a useful feature since people can use whatever sort of modules they want for window managing, for example.
      Be it a large and expansive window manager, or a simple visual text manager with cursor support, or at the furthest extremes, a command line for really resource-low hardware.

      They had these plans for Win7, but they completely ditched them for god knows what reason.

    2. Re:CPM by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      My first self-owned computer was a Kaypro 4-84. The OS was CPM and the machine came with 64K (yes, K) of RAM. When it booted up the screen said it had 63K of RAM. I thought I had been ripped off so I called the company. The tech explained that the other 1K was being used by the OS. So I don't think Windows 8 is going to impress me.

      I bet you're still driving your AMC Gremlin.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    3. Re:CPM by berniemne · · Score: 1

      Hehe, I was ripped off by Commodre even more. Only 38k from the 64 lol.

    4. Re:CPM by fat_mike · · Score: 1

      My first computer was TI94/A that came with 2KB of RAM which I expanded to 4KB through a giant brick that plugged into the back of it. Kaypro...also, my balls are bigger than yours.

  8. yoyoyoyoyoyo! wassup by For+a+Free+Internet · · Score: 0

    shoutout to my Slashdot homies! Wassup!

    --
    UNITE with the Campaign for a Free Internet because today, our future begins with tomorrow!
  9. They can do it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It amazes me that Windows 7 runs flawlessly on my 701eepc.

    They do know some tricks, that's for sure.
    And they're going to have to use them all if they genuinely want to converge the desktop and the mobile device.

    I'm waiting for the first phone that docks to a small docking station with USB and HDMI.
    Goodbye entire low end desktop market!
    MS won't care. They sell software. Intel might be shitting themselves a little though.

    1. Re:They can do it by realityimpaired · · Score: 1

      I'm waiting for the first phone that docks to a small docking station with USB and HDMI.

      That phone has been on the market for 9 months already.

    2. Re:They can do it by cyber-vandal · · Score: 1

      They'll care if it isn't running Windows or Office.

    3. Re:They can do it by Joce640k · · Score: 1

      Does it fit on the SSD? I've been thinking of putting it on my 901 because the memory management is so much better than XP but it would cost a lot to upgrade the internal SSD.

      --
      No sig today...
  10. Re:Obligatory post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    [insert post by some delusional Fat Person bragging about how he hasn't eaten McDonalds in years]

  11. re-architecting? WTH? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As an actual licensed "architect" for more than 20 years I find the term "re-architecting" silly, inappropriate, and useless. With all of the brilliant minds in the industry why won't someone come up with a more descriptive and appropriate term? Next up I suppose we will have "re-lawyering", "re-CPAing", and "re-burgerflipping"

    1. Re:re-architecting? WTH? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As an actual licensed "architect" for more than 20 years I find the term "re-architecting" silly, inappropriate, and useless. With all of the brilliant minds in the industry why won't someone come up with a more descriptive and appropriate term? Next up I suppose we will have "re-lawyering", "re-CPAing", and "re-burgerflipping"

      As a designer I feel the same when people talk about redesigning something.

    2. Re:re-architecting? WTH? by alexandre_ganso · · Score: 1

      re-engineering?

    3. Re:re-architecting? WTH? by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      re-engineering?

      Re-factoring.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    4. Re:re-architecting? WTH? by adonoman · · Score: 1

      As a licensed mathematician, I'm going to have to call foul on that. Leave the factoring to us. Union duties and such...

      I propose "re-developing"

    5. Re:re-architecting? WTH? by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      As a licensed mathematician, I'm going to have to call foul on that. Leave the factoring to us. Union duties and such...

      I propose "re-developing"

      Ha ... with that I can see you're still in your prime.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    6. Re:re-architecting? WTH? by justthinkit · · Score: 1

      Mulliganing?

      --
      I come here for the love
  12. "let services start on a trigger" by Rufty · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So windows is finally getting inetd?

    --
    Red to red, black to black. Switch it on, but stand well back.
    1. Re:"let services start on a trigger" by mustangsal66 · · Score: 5, Funny

      So windows is finally getting inetd?

      and I hear Windows 8 SP1 will run the 2.6 kernel

      --
      Why worry? Each of us is wearing an unlicensed "nucular" accelerator on his back.
      Sig changed for readability by G.W.
    2. Re:"let services start on a trigger" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Maybe we can get rid of SearchIndexer for good?

      Not being able to create folders makes me feel Windows ME wasn't that bad after all...

    3. Re:"let services start on a trigger" by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      from the other features, I thought maybe it's finally getting a decent BSD kernel too

    4. Re:"let services start on a trigger" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So inetd starts a service on a PnP event?

    5. Re:"let services start on a trigger" by TheLink · · Score: 1

      On at least one version of suse linux if you add/remove a network interface (or other hardware) the OS launches some stuff (PnP etc).

      That's fine if you just add one NIC. We had to disable that stuff when we added/removed 1000 VLAN NICs :).

      --
    6. Re:"let services start on a trigger" by sco08y · · Score: 1

      So inetd starts a service on a PnP event?

      No, that's automount and autofs.

    7. Re:"let services start on a trigger" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So windows is finally getting inetd?

      Which heavyweight services are you launching with inetd? That's what this is about, not the launching mechanism, which is trivial.

    8. Re:"let services start on a trigger" by Solandri · · Score: 1

      Hmm, Ubuntu announces 11.10 will support ARM. Microsoft announces Windows 8 will support ARM...

  13. About time. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    it will also let services start on a trigger and stop when needed instead of running all the time.

    Hur-fucking-ray. No more crapware constantly running just to check for updates or for that one bit of hardware you use once a month.

    1. Re:About time. by LO0G · · Score: 1

      Trigger started services were introduced in Windows 7, this isn't new. I just wish people were taking advantage of them (I'm looking at you Google chrome and Adobe with your long running processes that do nothing but check to see if there's an update).

    2. Re:About time. by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      So - disable the fucking services? Hey, I test drove Vista, I've driven Win7, and the first thing I did in each instance, was to refer to Black Viper's site. He had already figured out that disabling a list of services was all good for almost everyone, and disabling a longer list of services was good for some more people, and disabling an even longer list of services was still good for some people.

      Update managers? Disable them, or change their settings to manual. Christ on a crutch, man, isn't this a geek/nerd/techie forum? Surely I don't need to explain how to get to services.msc?

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    3. Re:About time. by LO0G · · Score: 2

      The Black Viper list is pretty good, but the reality is that from Win7 on, the list of OS services that's enabled is the set which won't break something (if you read Black Viper's list they point out what breaks with each service disabled).

      And I've not yet figured out how to convince Google Chrome to stop auto-updating (and I don't want to stop flash from auto-updating, flash and pdf are the two biggest vectors for malware out there). I just wish their auto-updaters respected the user and recognized that they should. Larry Osterman wrote an article about this a couple of years ago: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/larryosterman/archive/2007/08/20/applet-mitigations-updaters.aspx

    4. Re:About time. by berniemne · · Score: 1

      1. Use Firefox. 2. Yes, flash is an instant disable. Jobs was right to not support of that piece of crap. 3. Use a proper pdf viever. There are quite a few, open source and commercial too.

    5. Re:About time. by LO0G · · Score: 1

      Firefox is also moving to a silent update model. And I'll bet they mess it up too.

    6. Re:About time. by perryizgr8 · · Score: 1

      yeah, use firefox and experience the magic! 3 tabs open and 10%cpu, ~350MB ram.

      --
      Wealth is the gift that keeps on giving.
  14. Hope so... by IANAAC · · Score: 5, Interesting
    It's been a long time since I've dealt with Windows other than XP in a VM, and even that is rare.

    My old Asus netbook recently died, so I was forced to go out and buy another. I bought an Aspire One loaded with W7S. I really wanted to like W7. Really. I liked the interface. But damn, it was really slow and memory hungry. With no pgms running, it was taking up about 560-580M of memory, compared to Ubuntu (11.04) taking 260-270M with no pgms running.

    I really couldn't have more than two programs running in W7 without hitting 900M memory use. Granted, they were big pgms - Thunderbird and Firefox, both latest versions. But contrast that with Ubuntu where I ran TB, FF, Pidgin, Hotot, Tobmoy, LibreOffice and Rhythmbox all at the same time and never go above the 850M mark in memory use (at least not yet).

    This release of Ubuntu has its own set of problems (Compiz, anyone?), but I much prefer it to W7. If MS can get Window's memory usage down I'd be more inclined to use the latest version.

    1. Re:Hope so... by Mastadex · · Score: 1

      I bought a netbook for my wife. Loaded it up the first time and Vista took up over a gig of RAM on a machine with a 2GB limit. I wiped the OS and installed XP. it took up a nice 60Mb or RAM after tweaking. Your 260-270Mb of ram usage is insulting to me.

      XP does everything windows 7 can on her laptop.

      --
      A morning without coffee is like something without something else.
    2. Re:Hope so... by DarkXale · · Score: 1

      A VM test of mine from a few weeks ago with W8-32bit with the new task manager active netted a memory consumption of around 260mb after a small amount of idling time - but letting it sit for a while longer than that yielded 220-230mb. For a NT6 client system, its not bad. With another year or so of improvements, and possibly manually tweaking it yourself (this was a stock config) I wonder if its not possible to push it below 200.

    3. Re:Hope so... by IANAAC · · Score: 1

      ... it took up a nice 60Mb or RAM after tweaking.

      That's why. It doesn't just use 60M out of the box without any tweaking.

    4. Re:Hope so... by Xelios · · Score: 2

      I don't understand this way of looking at memory. Unused memory is just that, unused. It's basically wasted. Why is this seen as an advantage? As long as enough memory is freed up when it's needed then I'd rather have the OS find a use for it, hopefully for things like cutting down application loading time. Whether W7 puts it to good use or not is up for debate, I personally have no idea.

      Besides, 4 GB is pretty standard these days, I really don't see the problem in an OS taking ~12% of that when it's not needed. Hell, take more. Take a full 2 GB if you can put it to good use, as long as it's cleared when another program requests it then why not?

      --
      Murphey's fighting Occam, and we're in the stands.
    5. Re:Hope so... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Does that include your cache'd RAM? Do you know how Win7 uses cache RAM?

    6. Re:Hope so... by tgd · · Score: 5, Informative

      The vast majority of people -- even those who think they know how to interpret windows memory statistics -- don't know how to interpret Windows memory statistics. The common tools (like Task Manager) give meaningless numbers for both process and total system usage. Sysinternal's Process Explorer is better, but you still need to understand how the Windows kernel and memory management works to properly interpret the numbers.

      I wouldn't read anything at all into the numbers you were seeing. 900M memory usage for two programs in Task Manager is just fine -- you quite literally *can't* get the real information through Task Manager.

      Modern OS memory management is one of the most complicated things an OS does, and unfortunately no one has ever come up with a good way to distill all the information about what is really going on in your physical memory into a single number or statistic that lets people know if something is wrong. The only real statistic that matters is the percentage of pages that the total sum of processes are actively using relative to the commit charge... a process with a gigabyte of memory mapped files, or a hundred megabytes of shared code pages, or hundreds of megabytes of allocated and populated pages that only infrequently use them is running just fine.

      Reducing memory usage in Windows 8 is more about reducing the churn of pages through the various kernel data structures in the memory manager. As the article says, that involves things like optimizing old code to not trigger page faults all the time, or to suspend threads or otherwise idle background services that aren't being used. (A thread waking up, and going immediately back to sleep because it has nothing to do will still potentially cause a page to be re-loaded from disk.)

      The Russinovich/Ionescu book "Windows Internals" has some pretty good sections that talk about how Windows memory management really works, if you're curious about it -- it would likely be enlightening about some of the misunderstands that people have about Windows.

    7. Re:Hope so... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Does that include your cache'd RAM? Do you know how Win7 uses cache RAM?

      How dare they, I want my memory to be FREE!

    8. Re:Hope so... by alexandre_ganso · · Score: 1

      Because the gains of having more gigabytes of I/O cache, for instance, is not that big, when compared to the time taken when an application actually needs that memory and the OS needs to flush this cache to disk? So yes, this makes things seem slow, especially when you want to open a program. Remember, most windows programs are killed when its last window is closed.

    9. Re:Hope so... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Debian officially requires 128MB to run (64MB if you don't want X). You can tweak it for less than that.

    10. Re:Hope so... by Runaway1956 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I find it difficult to believe that people are buying new machines with less than 4 gig of ram. Memory was cheap by the time Win7 came out - cheap enough to load a new machine with 4 gig, anyway. Maybe I'm something of an asshole, but anyone who invests hundreds of dollars in a new machine, and decides to go cheap on the memory deserves to have a shitty running machine. I don't care if it's an Apply fanboy, a Windows drone, or a Linux nut. BUY MEMORY, or don't complain about performance!

      Now, if you had said that you installed all the memory that the mainboard would support, and you were getting 60% to 80% usage before you even started any programs, THEN I would agree that there was a problem, I would sympathize with you, and I would be willing to look for the problem.

      A couple of guys have commented on how much memory their browsers use. Well, I've seen FF using around 1.5 gig, while at the same time, Chromium was using in excess of a gig of memory. As someone else commented - the memory is there, why not use it? It's better than waiting for "virtual memory" to thrash the hell out of my hard disks!

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    11. Re:Hope so... by timeOday · · Score: 1

      Since the parent mentioned VMs, guest OS instances are a good example of where a memory-hogging OS is a bad thing. It would be better to let the guest OS's memory usage rise and fall with their load, instead, aggressive caching basically implies static memory allocation to VMs because whatever you set as maximum, they'll use. This is a problem with Java too - you just guess how much heap the program might use, but don't guess too high, because the JVM tends to use whatever you let it, because garbage collection overhead is less that way.

    12. Re:Hope so... by hedwards · · Score: 1

      That argument comes up frequently and is usually an attempt to justify swap algorithms that aren't aggressive enough at paging out the RAM. The problem is that a lot of things go in and out of RAM frequently and you will notice a significant drop in performance if that's happening regularly.

      I remember spending many hours trying to figure out how I could get those last few kb of RAM freed up so that I could run my fancy new DOS game that really had to have either 512kb or 640KB of lowmem RAM. When I wasn't gaming it didn't make any difference, but the program wouldn't load at all without it. Same basic deal here, while it's gotten a lot easier for Windows to manage memory than it was for DOS, there really isn't any good way of the OS taking up ~12% of the RAM when the system is largely idle and dropping back to something reasonable when the resources are in demand. Especially when the demand is short lived.

    13. Re:Hope so... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I faintly remember that they plan to run this on ARM tablets with 1GB RAM.......

    14. Re:Hope so... by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      Why would you flush the cache to disk? Isnt the whole point of cache specifically that it doesnt reside on the disk? Why wouldnt you just dump the cache?

    15. Re:Hope so... by alexandre_ganso · · Score: 1

      Data has to go to disk sometime. Either when the system is idle, or when memory is requested. It cannot stay forever in memory.

    16. Re:Hope so... by LordLimecat · · Score: 2

      but anyone who invests hundreds of dollars in a new machine, and decides to go cheap on the memory deserves to have a shitty running machine. I don't care if it's an Apply fanboy,

      Quite relevant for the apple folks, since extra RAM for them (preinstalled) is quite expensive-- can be ~10% of the price of the machine to upgrade the RAM. I think they charge $200 to upgrade to 8GB from 4.

      Dell, HP, et all arent always that much better either, often they peddle upgrades like that for $100 (when RAM costs about $6 per GB right now).

    17. Re:Hope so... by LordLimecat · · Score: 2

      Unchanged cache can be dumped. If you need it again, you can pull it into cache again from its original location.

    18. Re:Hope so... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The cache is already on the disk. Its in memory to avoid disk I/O.

    19. Re:Hope so... by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      ... it took up a nice 60Mb or RAM after tweaking.

      That's why. It doesn't just use 60M out of the box without any tweaking.

      Even the stock XP isn't so bad, and what geek worth his salt is afraid of a little tweaking? Besides, you can grab a torrent of the XP Performance Edition where most of those have been done for you.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    20. Re:Hope so... by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      I remember spending many hours trying to figure out how I could get those last few kb of RAM freed up so that I could run my fancy new DOS game

      Me too. It became sort of a game to me, in and of itself, to get everything loaded high. Using QEMM and a lot of fiddling I got ALL my drivers (network, mouse, whatever) into upper RAM, leaving only about 40 kbytes used of main memory. Yeah, I know, ridiculous waste of time, but it was entertaining

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    21. Re:Hope so... by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      it would likely be enlightening about some of the misunderstands that people have about Windows.

      Yes, but that would substantially reduce the number of entertaining rants on the subject.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    22. Re:Hope so... by IANAAC · · Score: 1

      I find it difficult to believe that people are buying new machines with less than 4 gig of ram. Memory was cheap by the time Win7 came out - cheap enough to load a new machine with 4 gig, anyway.

      I don't think I've ever seen a NETBOOK on display in a store (which is what I'm talking about here) have anything more than 2G of memory. Most ship with 1G.

    23. Re:Hope so... by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      Uhhhmmmm. My bad then. I don't do netbooks, and I spoke a bit to hastily. I'm familiar with desktops and laptops. In which case - that's Window's bad then. Once again, they are giving minimum and recommended RAM sizes that are to low, if they are recommending Win7 and/or Win8 be installed in netbooks with 1 to 2 gig of memory.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    24. Re:Hope so... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Maybe I'm something of an asshole"

      Something? You're everything of an asshole.

      Some of us like to keep our old computers out of the landfill, being they contain many hazardous chemicals and metals (Pb, As, Cd, etc.). I can't run anything past Fedora 14 on my boxes, due to the crappy Gnome 3 and the 768MB minimum requirement. All I have are a couple of AMD socket-A mobos with 512MB.

      And those are my "fast" computers.

      Back in the day, having the fastest computer or loudest stereo on the block would win you the pissing contest. Nowadays, it seems that having the biggest, most power-consuming technology puts you in the race. I don't give a rat's ass about how shiny or fast your new Lexus is - I'm perfectly happy with my Model A and VW Bug. Just don't go pissing in my gasoline and call it "Techron (R)"...

      Having GOOD memory management is essential to a fast OS. I can remember the old Compute!'s Gazette for the C64 publishing a program that did on-the-fly garbage collection to replace the MS_BASIC version. What took a good minute and a half now took only a few seconds, as the garbage wasn't left to "pile up", and the OS had more elbow room to deal with it when it got filled up.

      So, even on your roomy 4GB machines, having the OS take care of mundane things in a more efficient manner makes it so that even your precious make-my-penis-larger programs run faster and more snappily than they otherwise would.

      Kudos to MS if they can make W7 or W8 run on an old PIII-300, like Puppy or DSL. I'd have LOTS of people who are Linux-shy running it (and putting money into the MS bank account) in no short order.

    25. Re:Hope so... by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      You'll find that on laptops especially those loaded with Win7 that areo and things like it including the search/search index are what kill performance. Turn those off, and it's much better.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    26. Re:Hope so... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So it's Ok for a modern OS to use shitloads of ram because RAM is "cheap" Some people actually can't afford a new PC, they have to make do with old secondhand machines with very little power and Linux particularly Debian suits those much better than Windows.

    27. Re:Hope so... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, those guys who just buy the machine from a shop, and don't know about adding memory, screw 'em. they should get crappy performance, and heaven forbid anyone actually optimise their shit code

    28. Re:Hope so... by IANAAC · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The Russinovich/Ionescu book "Windows Internals" has some pretty good sections that talk about how Windows memory management really works, if you're curious about it -- it would likely be enlightening about some of the misunderstands that people have about Windows.

      I will fully admit to not knowing the internals of memory management. But I can say without a doubt that W7 definitely takes more of a performance hit than Ubuntu with the same programs. Thunderbird and Firefox bring the machine to a crawl in W7, while they don't in Ubuntu. Memory management is the only reasonable cause I can think of. It certainly not the processor - it's an Atom 570 dual core running at 1.66GHz. Add a third largish program (Media Monkey in my case) and W7 becomes unresponsive - REALLY unresponsive.

      I don't get this behavior at all under Ubuntu, with more programs running, Granted, Ubuntu makes it slightly easier for me to see how memory is being used - probably because I'm a bit more familiar with it - by showing me buffers/cache. So as a layperson, I come to the conclusion that it's memory management.

    29. Re:Hope so... by WorBlux · · Score: 2

      DSL is kind of cheating, all the software is frozen to circa 2003. A lot of features and code have been added to packages sense then. Not to say you can't still make a 200 MB distro fairly easily, but anything under a 100 is really hard to do unless you make a lot of sacrifices in usability.

    30. Re:Hope so... by blahplusplus · · Score: 2

      " into a single number or statistic that lets people know if something is wrong."

      You don't need numbers for memory leaks, applications usually slow down/crash because they are poorly programmed. Firefox's memory leaks become definitely obvious just by observing how the program slows down over time. Indeed interpreting memory data is difficult but that doesn't mean there aren't obvious give-aways from the user perspective of badly used resources or resources that become hijacked, especially when dealing with browsers/websites and flash over the past 10 years.

    31. Re:Hope so... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He said Netbook. Most of them come with 1GB RAM and can't be user upgraded without voiding the warranty.

    32. Re:Hope so... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only reason why I would ever want to buy more memory is when I am running Windows or when I am developing something. Other than than, 4 GB should be more than enough. Heck, your smartphone runs in under less than 2gb of mb, and you can already do internet browsing, do email, talk, listen to music, text, snap a picture.

    33. Re:Hope so... by Solandri · · Score: 2

      I find it difficult to believe that people are buying new machines with less than 4 gig of ram. Memory was cheap by the time Win7 came out - cheap enough to load a new machine with 4 gig, anyway. Maybe I'm something of an asshole, but anyone who invests hundreds of dollars in a new machine, and decides to go cheap on the memory deserves to have a shitty running machine.

      If you buy a pre-built machine (which 99% of people do), the worst thing you can do is buy it with lots of memory. Desktops and laptops have ridiculously thin margins. The big manufacturers rely on upgrades and add-ons for profit. Consequently, the 4GB which costs them $10 from their supplier and sells for $15 retail, will cost you $50 if you buy it with a new machine. I buy lots of computers for family, friends, and clients. If possible, I'd buy them all with no memory and just buy my own memory modules to add in. The base configurations usually do stupid things like put in two 1GB SODIMMs into a laptop, forcing you to throw them away if you upgrade it to 8 GB.

      And so we end up in a situation where laypeople don't get the memory upgrade in the pre-built system because techies like us taught them that it's a rip-off. But they don't know how to buy/add new memory on their own. So they undeservingly end up stuck running low memory systems.

    34. Re:Hope so... by jawtheshark · · Score: 1

      It's worse than that... The operating systems from Redmond for these machines are limited to 1GB RAM by Redmond itself. You can't call it a Netbook and get the cheapest version of 7 if it has more than 1GB RAM. See for yourself. Of course, the OEMs can ship Home Premium if they want, but that's going to cost them more which is annoying on the razor-thin margins that netbooks have.

      --
      Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
    35. Re:Hope so... by pclminion · · Score: 1

      Dirty pages do not sit in cache very long. Not just for performance reasons but because when you write something to disk you actually want it to be written to disk. Most disk cache pages aren't dirty and can be reclaimed through the following algorithm: Step 1: use the page for something else instead of cache. Step 2: There is no step 2.

    36. Re:Hope so... by gewalker · · Score: 1

      An even better game was spreadsheet that were passed around in a department. Someone can't load it, so you have to optimize their ram, so they add more stuff, then the first person can't load it, so another support call ... Way more fun that getting a game to load on your own machine. And even better when you reach the point than QEMM tricks are no longer enough --hello EMM card upgrades.

      On a serious note, Unless most of you, I wrote lots of C programs for Unix where 64K was the rule -- It was just as much fun as you might think. One program was a very flexible sort routine for large binary files -- large is a relative term, we only had a 40MB disk on Unix system. And I do mean fun -- I really enjoyed writing this kind of software -- 20+ years later, I encountered a situation where I had to sort 600+ MB binary files in windows, very similar program but in Delphi this time -- It was still fun.

      When I write software these days, it's mostly low-quality stuff, just crank the handle till it's good enough -- no real attention to algorithms, etc. because the machines are powerful enough that you can't justify the expense for craftsmanship that I really enjoyed as part of programming. I don't mean my programs are bug-ridden, there is just not the sense of beauty and accomplishment that I used to enjoy.

    37. Re:Hope so... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So let me get this straight. Thunderbird and Firefox took up hundreds of megabytes of memory, and that's the fault of Windows. Riiiiiight.

    38. Re:Hope so... by mikael · · Score: 1

      Code optimization in those days was fun. Compilers in those days would generate how many bytes of code and data each module (.c or .cpp) file would generate.

      You could keep rearranging things (merging small functions, turning switch statements into lookup function tables) around until the absolute minimum of code was generated.

      I've tried doing that recently, but the compilers just do that automatically, so it makes no difference to code size.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    39. Re:Hope so... by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      Be careful with giving that advice. Dell for example know's the amount of RAM the machine was shipped with. So when it comes time for hardware warranty support, they may ask the user to remove any user installed memory in order to isolate the faulty module. Installing your own RAM doesn't void warranty support, but it does make the whole troubleshooting process much more of a pain in the ass. This advise doubly so for their server side support. If I'm not mistaken, the DSET diagnostic utility run on PowerEdge units will probe the SPD EPROM and thus provide Dell the make and model of all memory modules installed.

      There's a difference between extending the useful life of a machine by purchasing additional RAM at time of purchase, and installing the maximum amount the machine can physically address. One's being wise while the other just wasteful.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    40. Re:Hope so... by KingMotley · · Score: 1

      I agree. It costs $50 for 8GB of ram these days. Complaining because your machine runs like crap when it only has 1GB is silly. My desktop has 12GB and I'm about to replace it with another with 32GB in the next few months. My phone has 32GB of memory and I'm considering replacing it with one that has 64GB. Cry moar about your 1GB of ram and stop holding the rest of the world back with your cheap ass.

    41. Re:Hope so... by IANAAC · · Score: 1

      My phone has 32GB of memory and I'm considering replacing it with one that has 64GB. Cry moar about your 1GB of ram and stop holding the rest of the world back with your cheap ass.

      Oh good grief. Your phone does NOT have 32G of memory. It has 32G of storage.

    42. Re:Hope so... by KingMotley · · Score: 1

      Perhaps you don't understand what memory is.

    43. Re:Hope so... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are some kids on your lawn. You should go yell at them.

    44. Re:Hope so... by drinkypoo · · Score: 0

      For what it costs, if you don't have 8GB in a desktop system, you're crazy. Just being able to utterly disable swap is worth the money.

      Now I just need to get SSD. I still don't have any, which is crazy.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    45. Re:Hope so... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Programs on Windows bringing the machine to a crawl, which does not happen under Linux, does not necessarily have anything to do with the VM or the design of either OSes VM system. Right now I can think of literally 13 different reasons said programs might perform badly on startup on Windows compared to Linux -- and just as many vice-versa. So with in this regard, your post should have ended at the first sentence (I say that with sincerity, not to be argumentative).

      Furthermore, you're testing using Mozilla products, where there is sufficient evidence that Mozilla keeps messing about with their own replacements for libc and other whatnots. They've been messing about with this for years now and still haven't found something that works decently. I wish userland/application programmers would leave this shit alone; use threads, malloc in a thread when you want something, free in that thread when you're done. For those wanting to argue against that: nope, you're wrong, and just wanting to make things more difficult than they need to be (see KISS principle). Any low-level programmers live by the belief that concepts like garbage collection are exactly that: garbage. So: applications need to rely on the existing VM and userland memory allocation frameworks which they have available to them and not try to "outsmart" them.

      As someone who does understand VMs a bit, your "Ubuntu makes it easier for me to see how much memory is being used ... by showing me buffers/cache" statement is deeply ignorant. You really don't have any idea what's using what or how much *truly*. There is a hell of a lot more to a VM than "buffers and cache". For basics, do you understand the difference between VIRT/VSZ and RES/RSS in "top"? Do you understand that a large VIRT/VSZ does not necessarily mean that PID is chewing up tons of memory? If not, you shouldn't be conversing about anything related to VMs or memory management even remotely.

      It's entirely different in the Windows world, but I will tell you up front: the Windows kernel is surprisingly robust and well-designed. It's all the surrounding cruft that makes a mess. So, with regards to the Slashdot post talking about "adding new APIs to provide more fine-grained memory management": oh god, please do not do that. More APIs = more of a mess = more wasted resources + more wasted CPU time. If anything Microsoft needs to stop adding shitloads of APIs and fix + simplify the ones they already have. They can start with Win32.

    46. Re:Hope so... by poofmeisterp · · Score: 1

      That argument comes up frequently and is usually an attempt to justify swap algorithms that aren't aggressive enough at paging out the RAM. The problem is that a lot of things go in and out of RAM frequently and you will notice a significant drop in performance if that's happening regularly.

      I remember spending many hours trying to figure out how I could get those last few kb of RAM freed up so that I could run my fancy new DOS game that really had to have either 512kb or 640KB of lowmem RAM. When I wasn't gaming it didn't make any difference, but the program wouldn't load at all without it. Same basic deal here, while it's gotten a lot easier for Windows to manage memory than it was for DOS, there really isn't any good way of the OS taking up ~12% of the RAM when the system is largely idle and dropping back to something reasonable when the resources are in demand. Especially when the demand is short lived.

      What you say makes perfect sense. What I've never understood is why the overall "issue", if you want to call it that, hasn't been addressed in years.

      Since memory has become virtual and more freely available for allocation, even when it's not ACTIVELY in use, a problem has developed that not many have seemed to resolve.

      Okay, program X allocates 50MB of memory. It only actively uses 1-2MB of it. The rest is still considered paged, but allocated. Why don't developers (including the OS developer) just address the issue of "pre-over-allocation"? If your program allocates 2MB and needs an additional 500K, allocate the additional 500K at that time.

      I've observed this for years and it drives me crazy. What am I missing here that makes me an idiot for thinking this?

    47. Re:Hope so... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except that we're all talking about RAM, and not long term memory, or storage...

    48. Re:Hope so... by justthinkit · · Score: 1

      Ok, how about "Hijacked Memory"? "Euthanized Memory" would also work but might be illegal. "Theft Memory" comes to mind, as does "Slacker Memory". "Unemployed Memory" is probably already copyrighted. "Memory that has gone over to the dark side" was considered but rejected by someone going by the name of "tldr". My personal choice would be "Think of the children memory"...

      --
      I come here for the love
    49. Re:Hope so... by gmhowell · · Score: 1

      but anyone who invests hundreds of dollars in a new machine, and decides to go cheap on the memory deserves to have a shitty running machine. I don't care if it's an Apply fanboy,

      Quite relevant for the apple folks, since extra RAM for them (preinstalled) is quite expensive-- can be ~10% of the price of the machine to upgrade the RAM. I think they charge $200 to upgrade to 8GB from 4.

      Your number is correct, at least for the MacBook Pro I was looking at online this morning.

      --
      Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
  15. re-architecting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'd just like to point out that there is no such verb "to architect" from which "architecting" might be formed.

  16. Half right and half wrong.. by Junta · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Too many people view 'free' memory as a good thing and would complain if IO cache was reduced to improve the 'free' memory. However, they can find a measure to soothe their worries. I assume it is also the case in Windows, but in Linux, for example, the categorization of memory usage as disposable cache is clearly delineated (though some cached memory can't be disposed and it's hard to tell what *that* value is, which is a problem). If free memory is under pressure, cache is safely dropped and it was as if the memory was 'free', just it nominally helped. A user bitching can be pointed to the second line of free and told to get over it.

    Now to say the browser memory usage scenario is ok, that is problematic. Sure, caching content is great, but if your cache is in your RSS and other processes on the system have no way to get your disposable content to drop out for the sake of memory it needs to absolutely operate, that's a problem. If a webpage you haven't visited in 4 hours has a cached rendering taking up 64 MB and another process dies because it needed to alloc 40 MB, that's not good (values pulled out of ass for illustrative purposes). Incidentally, this is also an issue in virtualization, since a guests cached pages becomes indistinguishable from other content by the hypervisor, various weird hacks go into place for the guest to coordinate this with the host.

    --
    XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    1. Re:Half right and half wrong.. by LordLimecat · · Score: 2

      Too many people view 'free' memory as a good thing

      Windows Task manager does not include cache in its "physical memory" stat, which is the new "memory load". Either that, or none of the (several) boxes I use with Win7 do any caching whatsoever.

  17. "re-architecting old bits of code"? Windows?! by G3ckoG33k · · Score: 1

    "re-architecting old bits of code"? Windows?!

    I remember an interview with a former Excel developer who said that "re-architecting" was forbidden as it might break things no-one understood at the time; the original developers had left a long time before.

    So. See it first. Believe it later.

    But, wait, this is closed source. Whhhy should one believe them?

    1. Re:"re-architecting old bits of code"? Windows?! by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      It's true with any large ancient code base. But eventually there comes a point where maintaining the old code, and having to deal with all its warts when extending it (for new features etc), becomes more expensive than a grounds-up rewrite and thorough testing to ensure no functional regressions.

  18. like ksm (linux) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    "Memory combining is a technique in which Windows efficiently assesses the content of system RAM during normal activity and locates duplicate content across all system memory."

    ksm - dynamic page sharing driver for linux (http://lwn.net/Articles/326364/)

    "KSM is a linux driver that allows dynamicly sharing identical memory
    pages between one or more processes.

    Unlike tradtional page sharing that is made at the allocation of the
    memory, ksm do it dynamicly after the memory was created.
    Memory is periodically scanned; identical pages are identified and
    merged.
    The sharing is unnoticeable by the process that use this memory.
    (the shared pages are marked as readonly, and in case of write
    do_wp_page() take care to create new copy of the page)"

    1. Re:like ksm (linux) by hedwards · · Score: 1

      Isn't that a tremendous security vulnerability if the scanning isn't done correctly or frequently enough? I'm sure it does lower memory utilization, but I'm not sure that I'd trust that not to have any bugs or vulnerabilities.

    2. Re:like ksm (linux) by WorBlux · · Score: 1

      Not if you mark pages as read only. I don't see how not merging frequently enough is a security vulnerability. Not doing it correctly could be, but I'd think be somewhat unlikely that could be mistaken for something import and actually contain code that exploits rather than crashes the system. Also it probably excluds the kernel and c library address just to be safe.

    3. Re:like ksm (linux) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, it isn't a security vulnerability.

      When a memery page is de-duplicated, it is turned into a readonly page, which non-privileged code cannot change.

      The next time a process tries to write that page, the processor will generate a page fault before the write occurs. Upon receiving the page fault, the operating system will create a copy of the read-only page and map the copy into the process's memory space. It will then resume the process's execution, where it will be able to execute the write to its own private copy of the memory page, which other processes won't see.

  19. Sure by kbg · · Score: 2

    Ye sure, this is what always happens they promise some new and better stuff, and then they drop half the stuff and the OS is just crap. I wouldn't hold my breath for any of this. It's better to wait for the actual release. This is just hype talk.

  20. Irony meter off the charts? by stomv · · Score: 1

    So the AC points out how people who don't know what they're talking about "form a highly vocal opinion about it anyway!" and then proceeds to do the exact same thing about poverty in Texas, riddled with so many false assumptions it doesn't warrant a point by point response.

    1. Re:Irony meter off the charts? by Qzukk · · Score: 1

      AC is apparently a fan of retroactive abortion, since it's not like employers ask if you've got kids before making any hiring or firing decisions.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
  21. And this matters? by grasshoppa · · Score: 4, Interesting

    With windows 7, memory has become less an issue to me. I just don't care that much; I have 4 gigs, and stuff starts right up when I click on it. As a user, that's all I care about. I could obsess about how much memory is being used at all times, I guess, but what does that metric even mean? I currently have fo:nv, mstsc, 10tabs in ie and ~20 in chrome, everything is still snappy. What does it matter that the system is showing high ram utilization?

    What I'd like to see them focus on instead is the file system, and making searches work at least as well as they did in XP. Vista utterly broke file searching ( which is amazing in and of itself ), and while w7 brought back some of the functionality, it's still a crap shoot.

    --
    Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
    1. Re:And this matters? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I must agree, RAM, and fast DDR3 ram at that, is quite cheep. Granted I like optimization, but who buys computers with 1 gig of memory now of day.

      What I would like to see is Win8 optimizing it's general footprint, With SSD's becoming the future standard, atleast for where the OS lies, I would really like to see Win8 do something much better then Vista or Win 7 regarding the winsxs folder and not holding onto ever "if needed" driver. Stop the bloat and optimize on the disk side.

    2. Re:And this matters? by Dragonshed · · Score: 1

      It matters because Windows 8 is intended to target low end ARM hardware as well as high end Intel/AMD. At //build/ Microsoft kindof made a big deal about the wide range of hardware they want to run on, and when someone buys a low end slate for $300 instead of getting an ipad, Microsoft wants that experience to be as good as it can be.

      Totally agree with the file system gripes, though.

    3. Re:And this matters? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Programs open up right when you click on them? That is too late. Windows 8 needs neutrino technology. I want the programs to open up BEFORE I click on them.

    4. Re:And this matters? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wonder why you felt that it was broken? Vista and the .net updates exposed the much-expanded capabilities of file search. I've seen amazing things done with it, and utilizing it using the dnf is a pretty slick addition. The problems I've had, as with any file system search, is maintaining an up-to-date database. I've had problems balancing the thrash of updating the locate db and having up-to-date results, too. :/

  22. Re:Obligatory post by Runaway1956 · · Score: 0

    Since you insist. Of course, it's only mostly true. I actually fire up a Windows VM now and then - but since I don't run Windows on hardware, I guess that's close enough. Happy? Oh - the delusional part? Sorry, I'll just have to disappoint you on that score!

    --
    "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
  23. I have a Windows XP box running... by QuietLagoon · · Score: 1

    ... quite well with 256MB of memory. Will Windows 8 be able to best that?

    1. Re:I have a Windows XP box running... by gman003 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It shouldn't need to - you quite literally cannot buy new memory in less than 512GB capacity. That would be like saying "I can run Linux on a Motorola 68000, will Windows 8 do that?" - it won't, because there's very very little market demand for running a new operating system on decade-old hardware.

    2. Re:I have a Windows XP box running... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But having more free memory you can actually use is a good thing even on modern hardware.

    3. Re:I have a Windows XP box running... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In exchange for utilizing better hardware, what does the average consumer get? OSes shouldn't use more simply because it's there.

    4. Re:I have a Windows XP box running... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly. While I do understand that lazy developers don't optimize their code enough these days because machines are fast and memory is plentiful--the fact is that machines ARE fast and memory IS plentiful. Imposing what is quite frankly an ancient arbitrary restriction on memory really doesn't give me any idea of what my user experience will be like. I don't take pride in saying I can run XYZ operating system on a 1983 era selectric typewriter, but I am proud of being able to turn available hardware & software components into a system that makes me hella productive.

    5. Re:I have a Windows XP box running... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The point is that Windows 8 is still wasting more memory than XP, which itself was very wasteful compared to Win2K (by far Microsoft's best operating system in terms of UI, functionality and efficiency).

      Your attitude seems to be "because more memory is available it should be wasted". I myself would have the OS use as little memory as possible so as to leave more available for applications.

    6. Re:I have a Windows XP box running... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      man i would kill for 512GB of ram

    7. Re:I have a Windows XP box running... by mikael · · Score: 3, Interesting

      In the old days, there was two ways for a programmer to optimize code; for speed, or for size. You couldn't afford to not design your code, otherwise you would immediately run into memory and performance issues. 16-bit compilers wouldn't allow you to allocate more than 64K at a time. After your application loaded, there would be less than 128K free anyway.

      So you would have to take care to plan ahead where and when you were going to use memory. Is the variable going to be a persistent data block that is allocated when the module is first started (IO cache block), something that is just loaded and then discarded (configuration parameters), or loaded until the user no longer wants it (data file). For every variable, you would have to decide whether it was 8-bit, 16-bit or 32-bit, signed or unsigned and assign it accordingly.

      Floating point was expensive and you would use fixed-point integers whenever possible, at least until the 80486 came out.

      2D FFT on a large image (512x512) was
      implemented by loading in each row of pixels separately from disk, applying the transform, and writing out that row again. This would be repeated again for each column.

      Even if you did get everything planned out, there was still the chance you would run out of memory. Then you would have to go back and prune every variable for size. Do name strings really need 128 bytes? Do attribute flags really need to be 16-bit? Do coordinates need to be 16-bit?

      These days, there are two ways to write code; for shortest project completion time; or for reusable code. Either deadlines are so tight that everyone just throws in code on top of each other, or there is actually time to design and plan ahead.

      No one really bothers with whether structure or class variables are 8-bit, 16-bit or 32-bit, or whether an array should have an upper limit of 32, 128 or 1024, whether result codes should be returned to indicate whether the memory was allocated. Just defining variables as 'int' is good enough, and C++ container classes takes care of the dynamic allocation of arrays.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    8. Re:I have a Windows XP box running... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you quite literally cannot buy new memory in less than 512GB capacity.

      I know you meant 512 MB, but now I wonder when 512 GB of memory will be common...

    9. Re:I have a Windows XP box running... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you quite literally cannot buy new memory in less than 512GB capacity.

      Are you from the future?

    10. Re:I have a Windows XP box running... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Literally? 512 gigabytes! As a minimum? wow. I am so out of touch.

    11. Re:I have a Windows XP box running... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought you needed at least 68020 to run linux? Something about the MMU.

    12. Re:I have a Windows XP box running... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you want my trolls to starve!stop making sense!

    13. Re:I have a Windows XP box running... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I bet it would run even better with DOS.

    14. Re:I have a Windows XP box running... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... quite well with 256MB of memory. Will Windows 8 be able to best that?

      with SP3 and Anti-virus/malware protection running as well?

    15. Re:I have a Windows XP box running... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That may have been true in 2030, but here in 2050 512TB is the minimum.

    16. Re:I have a Windows XP box running... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You quite literally cannot buy new memory in less than 512GB capacity.

      The guys over at CERN should be able to put those memory banks ro good use...

    17. Re:I have a Windows XP box running... by antdude · · Score: 1

      What are you running on it? Do you multitask?

      --
      Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
    18. Re:I have a Windows XP box running... by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Probably not. Here is how Win8 looks today. Now that's still a pre-beta, with various debugging and diagnostic stuff enabled, so memory use will likely go down a little bit further for RTM - perhaps even below 256Mb. But that's for the OS, and you would want apps as well.

      (here is how the same looks on Win7)

    19. Re:I have a Windows XP box running... by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      No one really bothers with whether structure or class variables are 8-bit, 16-bit or 32-bit, or whether an array should have an upper limit of 32, 128 or 1024, whether result codes should be returned to indicate whether the memory was allocated. Just defining variables as 'int' is good enough, and C++ container classes takes care of the dynamic allocation of arrays.

      Generally true, but there are exceptions. E.g. people who write VMs (JVM, CLR etc) usually care a lot about optimal memory allocation and cycle usage for those bits which are executed a lot.

    20. Re:I have a Windows XP box running... by gman003 · · Score: 1

      Damn, how did I miss that?

      Oh well. I found a paper citing 60% annual RAM capacity growth, or quadrupling every three years. IIRC, the last time 512MB was common was 2005 or so, which fits that model. That would put 512GB RAM as common around 2020.

    21. Re:I have a Windows XP box running... by dbIII · · Score: 1

      uClinux works on systems without an MMU (eg. the two ARM cores in a Nintendo DS).

    22. Re:I have a Windows XP box running... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yes, and optimisation for size was always broken in gcc because everybody optimised for speed.

      So it is a culture thing, and always was.

    23. Re:I have a Windows XP box running... by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

      > In the old days, there was two ways for a programmer to optimize code; for speed, or for size.
      And these days for some platforms (ARM, PS3) you optimize for size because it is often faster then speed.

      > No one really bothers with whether structure or class variables are 8-bit, 16-bit or 32-bit, or whether an array should have an upper limit of 32, 128 or 1024,
      That's nonsense -- talk to ANYONE in the games industry _shipping_ games on the PS3 & XBox 360, doing small console development such as DS.

  24. Amputation by wjcofkc · · Score: 1

    While amputating one of the elephants feet may technically make the beast in the room smaller, I doubt it will be enough to push it out the door.

    --
    Brought to you by Carl's Junior.
  25. Like Mac OS classic by tepples · · Score: 2

    A mechanism would be interesting where a certain process (say firefox.exe) would have a physical memory cap (say 256MB)

    That sort of reminds me of how Mac OS worked in the dinosaur age.

    Then again, swap is starting to be a relic of the old days

    Not on netbooks and tablets, where the operating system has to regularly swap out applications (on netbooks) or close background applications (on tablets) to free up memory for new tasks.

    1. Re:Like Mac OS classic by ninetyninebottles · · Score: 2

      A mechanism would be interesting where a certain process (say firefox.exe) would have a physical memory cap (say 256MB)

      That sort of reminds me of how Mac OS worked in the dinosaur age.

      Well, early MacOS and Windows. I had MacOS 6 and Windows 3.1 running on the same system (two motherboards shared disk and peripherals). When I tried to run an app with preallocated memory footprint in MacOS that would bring my total over the cap, the OS stopped me from launching it until I quit something. Windows 3.1 just crashed; which also stopped me :) Then Windows leapt ahead with Win 95 which crashed some of the time, but usually actually handled the memory for me.

    2. Re:Like Mac OS classic by gewalker · · Score: 1

      In the dino-Mac, it was basically the only mechanism -- there was no virtual memory.

      In a VM OS, it is still a useful mechanism as it gives you the ability to tune more (or less) intelligently than the O/S based on your preferences, On a development machine, I typically do something like restricting MSSQL server to say 512MB (this is a SQL Server setting, not an O/S setting) -- I don't need high performance SQL in my dev environment.

      Long running .Net or Java apps often bloat unneccesarily due to lazy memory management -- Would be nice to "trim their memory footprint" more aggressively in some cases. -- Better written apps that make appropriate calls the the memory management APIs would be nice too.

      I would prefer a convenient O/S imposed limit (user settable) for any process, just default to the current unrestricted behavior -- or even better a configurable default process limit like hoary Unix. Would be even nicer if there were 2 default limits, a default maximum, and user absolute maximum settings (i.e., without admin permissions).

    3. Re:Like Mac OS classic by Altrag · · Score: 3, Insightful

      More useful would be a message asking tasks to free up memory if they can. Tasks that can't (or were from prior to the new message existing) would simply ignore it and the OS would deal with them just as it currently does.

      Tasks that are just holding onto memory for caching or other non-immediate uses could potentially free up a lot. Obviously wouldn't apply to a whole lot of programs, but being applied to a handful of important ones (say, browsers) could make a lot of difference.

      Of course the OS would still need to be smart about it.. it would be too slow to try that on the fly.. but the OS could easily determine when it thinks its own cache is getting too small and can start bugging programs to free up theirs.

    4. Re:Like Mac OS classic by badatnicknames · · Score: 1

      What you're saying sounds like what the WM_COMPACTING (http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms632618%28VS.85%29.aspx) message was designed to do for 16-bit apps.

  26. Oh even the "tech savy" can be morons about this by NotSoHeavyD3 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I still remember at one place I worked they had me clean up a memory leak. Unfortunately I couldn't get it past QA because they didn't understand caching. Basically the deal is that when you free memory it goes back to the memory pool for the process and then the pool decides when to release it to the OS.(Which may be never) So when I freed my memory in debug build the pool immediately returned it to the OS. When QA did that in release the pool held on to the memory and reused it. I even showed them how if you did multiple processes one after the other you could actually see the app use more and more memory while after the fix it would plateau. (Because it was just re-using the memory it had already allocate.) They totally didn't understand, I might as well have explained it to the pavement outside the building. (In the end it just got marked as unfixable. After that if I saw any memory leaks while coding I fixed them as part of other bugs and then didn't mention it to QA.)

    --
    Did you know 80 to 90% of the moderators on slashdot wouldn't recognize a troll even if one dragged them under a bridge.
  27. Well stated by mikein08 · · Score: 1

    If you're trying to run W7 with less than 4gb of memory, you're a dunce. I notice that W7 laptops with 6gb of memory are now widely available. Buy the memory, people. And btw, Microsoft needs to look at several mainframe OSes (like IBM and HP's VMS) to see how the big boys do it. But they won't, of course.

  28. FTA by Luveno · · Score: 1

    NOTE: For Windows 8, a clean install also contains the extended Windows Defender technology, which, for the first time incorporates complete antimalware functionality – also optimized for memory and resource use per Jason’s blog about protecting you from malware. (This functionality does not exist on a clean install of Windows 7 where we would recommend that you add security software).

    This somehow made me frown.

    1. Re:FTA by WorBlux · · Score: 0

      It's a factory installed rootkit, we've known that is was coming sooner or later for a long time. I guess now it's leaning more towards the sooner.

    2. Re:FTA by gewalker · · Score: 1

      I fail to see how anti-virus & anti-spyware built bundled with Windows is a moment for frowning (unless you make a living detoxing Windows computers or such-like). I would think life would be better fewer botnets and DDOS attacks. My understanding is that you can still replace defender with your preferred anti-malware, or presumably defeat it entirely. Since UAC allows home "admins" to run any piece of garbage off the Internet I find it a good thing that there is at least something to avoid malware in most of these cases -- for Windows 8 at least.

      I am 100% certain that it does incorporate complete antimalware functionality as that would mean I had no ability to connect to remote machines or support removable media.

      I've installed Defender before and concluded that it does work reasonable well without interferring with system usage as badly as some common alternatives.

  29. So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So unlike previous versions of WindBlows, WindBLOWS 8 ( also known as Vista SP2) will not use the entire system ram, leaving programs to run in the swapspace on the HDD?! IT may actually leave 50 or 100 meg of system ram for programs!?!? What is the world coming to??

  30. We promise we're going to all this awesome stuff by bryan1945 · · Score: 1

    ...but it's not just there yet. FTFA.

    Get back to me when it is there.

    --
    Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
  31. 'No, it cant' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    XP uses less RAM then Win8 and is therefor quicker on older hardware.
    Nothing new, DOS runs faster then XP on 8M RAM. etc
    On 4G RAM, Win8 runs faster then XP.

    The problem i have with the Vista-family (Vista/7/8/9/10) is that it's
    insanly fat-assed. This is proven by Microsoft themselfs as they are
    just now starting to scratch the surface on the tip of thier lard-berg.

    It's like a fat person saying, i've improved my condition, now i only eats
    eleven burgers for breakfast.

    Well done Microsoft yaaay!!

  32. Yeah by lennier1 · · Score: 1

    Better don't forget to streamline it so just installing the OS itself won't use up several dozen gigabytes of fucking HDD space (especially in light of SSD-based systems).

  33. RAM is cheap, let's spend it wastefully? by DragonHawk · · Score: 2

    I find it difficult to believe that people are buying new machines with less than 4 gig of ram.

    General objection: Just because something is cheap doesn't mean we should spend it wastefully. I'd still rather that RAM be put to better use than code bloat. I'd rather the PC be faster, or do more things, or do new things, or be cheaper still. Maybe if software wasn't bloated, PCs would be less than $100 these days. Then we could put that money towards better support.

    Specific examples:

    • For a business with 100s or 1000s of PCs, spending an extra $50 on more RAM just because it's cheap means thousands or 10s of thousands of dollars. Code bloat means we have to. We would prefer to save the money.
    • For a smaller business with 100 PCs (like where I work), upgrading PCs isn't something that happens every 3 years. We've got 10s of older desktops with only 2 GB RAM. (And they've been upgraded to their max.)
    • Even top-of-the-line compact and subcompact notebooks are often limited to 2, 3 or 4 GB RAM max.
    • Tablets and handhelds are limited to even less RAM. Microsoft wants Windows running in that space. So do their customers. (I'm no fan of Microsoft, but fact is a lot of stuff is Windows-only. Given that fact, I'd like to be able to use Windows-based software more effectively.)
    --

    dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
    I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
    1. Re:RAM is cheap, let's spend it wastefully? by pclminion · · Score: 1

      For a business with 100s or 1000s of PCs, spending an extra $50 on more RAM just because it's cheap means thousands or 10s of thousands of dollars. Code bloat means we have to. We would prefer to save the money.

      You want to spend $50 less on RAM and just use "non bloated software?" You are assuming such hypothetical software would cost no more than $50 extra per machine. As a developer, when you tell me "don't bloat your code," you are telling me several things. First, to rely less on third-party libraries with their accompanying baggage. Okay, but this will require me to implement things I'm not an expert at, which will take me more time and money to do, and probably increase your ongoing costs because of reduced quality (I can't be an expert at everything, there's a reason I delegate to third party code for things I don't know how to do very well). Second, you want me to favor certain programming languages over others, reducing the pool of skill I have to draw from and increasing the price of my employees.

      You might save $50 per machine but you'll probably pay at least three times that much in software costs.

      On the other hand, if you're using open source software, I think the general attitude is "fix it yourself." Better get on it.

    2. Re:RAM is cheap, let's spend it wastefully? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I want to agree with you but really, the decision has effectively been made and it's time to move on. The reality is that people (all people, programmers, consumers, corporate types) voted by their behaviour.

      RAM is cheap and people want programs to be cheap. Commercial software used to cost, routinely, $400-500 each, for ordinary systems. Now cheap and free rule the day, so unless you are working on FOSS, there just isn't enough money to spend resources optimizing memory. And most people buy on features, not internals like memory management.

      Still don't agree? Then run Linux, which has a reputation for more efficient memory management. Windows has gone another way.

      Understand that I'm a programmer and generally dislike inefficient systems. Once you give up efficiency in a code base it is very rare to ever get it back again, so efficient systems can easily become inefficient, but it is rare for inefficient systems to become efficient.

      However the trends are crystal clear. Hardware is cheap and plentiful, so carefully conserving it becomes less meaningful every year.

  34. Yeah.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...if I can't dual boot Mac OS or Linux with it, I don't care what it does.

  35. Re:Windows 7.5 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    So buggy game code is buggy on both windows 7 and 8? Shocking...

  36. Re:And this matters? -- Better Searching by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A better free search for Windows (in many use cases at least). Agent Ransack More like XP version (but better and significantly faster). They also have an improved money required version, File Locator pro -- never tried this. I was inspired to look around for something better after MS broke its existing feeble search tool.

  37. Upgrade by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Using more memory and other resources for each new version of windows means that the average user needs to buy a new PC with each OS upgrade. Microsoft and its hardware partners have a vested interest in Windows getting more and more bloated.

  38. Don't believe any of this by JabrTheHut · · Score: 0

    ...re-architecting old bits of code...

    Oh, please. Remember when Microsoft said that Windows 7 was a new version? When everyone knew it was Vista SP1? And Vista was a complete rewrite, but it turned out it had the same kernel bugs as XP SP3? And XP was a complete rewrite, but the same kernel bugs as Win2000?

    This is just more of MS trying to put lipstick on a pig. And the pig in question is the Windows kernel.

    --
    Work like no one is watching. Dance like you've never been hurt. Make love like you don't need the money.
    1. Re:Don't believe any of this by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Remember when Microsoft said that Windows 7 was a new version? When everyone knew it was Vista SP1? And Vista was a complete rewrite, but it turned out it had the same kernel bugs as XP SP3? And XP was a complete rewrite, but the same kernel bugs as Win2000?

      No-one ever said that XP or Vista or Win7 are a "complete rewrite". Do you seriously think that Microsoft would throw away the existing product that works quite well and start from scratch just for the fun of doing so?

      This is just more of MS trying to put lipstick on a pig. And the pig in question is the Windows kernel.

      What specific issues do you have with Windows kernel?

    2. Re:Don't believe any of this by JabrTheHut · · Score: 1

      No-one ever said that XP or Vista or Win7 are a "complete rewrite".

      Actually, to generate interest and fight the perception that the Windows is bloated old mess of code, MS does periodically state that the new version is a rewrite. For example the "MinWin" rubbish they started before Windows 7 came out. Is Windows 7 really a slimmed down version of Vista? No, it's a rubbish assertion by MS. Was Vista really a new kernel? No, that was rubbish again.

      But just because it's rubbish doesn't mean that the MS Marketing Machine doesn't churn this stuff out in the lead up to a new release. And they say Apple's marketing is bad.

      --
      Work like no one is watching. Dance like you've never been hurt. Make love like you don't need the money.
    3. Re:Don't believe any of this by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      MinWin is a real thing. It was never claimed to be a grounds-up rewrite, however. It is clear that you are simply misinterpreting things (which wouldn't be surprising if you get these kinds of news from Slashdot, where stories are written by people who are similarly well-informed on the subject).

  39. Smells of Android. by w0mprat · · Score: 1

    Sounds a bit like Androids approach, which uses an aggressive approach to unloading components of apps out of memory, as well as closing background tasks. Basically things only really run when they are needed, and are expunged with prejudice if memory is required. It's a novel alternate approach for devices with limited memory that cannot have swap space. Right now conventional OSes will obediently use more and memory until it runs out. In fact it makes it look like swap space was always a ugly kludge in the computing world, and that giving the OS more power to manage it's memory was the way it should have always been. Android never runs "out of memory", under extreme load it will aggressively force close apps to make room as necessary, eventually killing your foreground task, should it not behave itself. Beautifully the platform forces developers to consider data loss more.

    All those years we lost our work due to memory issues. Now to calculate how much of my life has been wasted by an OS thrashing a swap file and ponder how things could have been.

    --
    After logging in slashdot still does not take you back to the page you were on. It's been that way for 20 years.
    1. Re:Smells of Android. by jezwel · · Score: 1

      my Symbian S^3 phone is even more aggressive about freeing up memory when you run short (typically an incoming call whilst under load) - simply reboot the phone and loose everything...

  40. What? I can't remember.. lack of memory :) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Where is my walker... mah memory is reduced...

  41. dishonest premise much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The idea that W8 is scanning every single page that's allocated just to RLE or COW it is idiotic. Throwing away BW and CPU constantly to save single digits of MBs rarely is a clear net loss.

    If BloatyApp allocs 20MB of nulled RAM, there's already a system in place to deal with that: it's called swap. If TimeCriticalApp then also allocs 20 nulled MB at startup, the LAST thing it wants is to incur COW-triggered pagefaults when it goes to use it.

    "Residence Priority" IS a good idea in theory. In practice though, BloatyApp is going to claim exactly the same "OMG DONT SWAP ME EVER!" priority as TimeCriticalApp, because otherwise Bloaty's users will complain that Bloaty is slow.

    Oh, and here's the missing number from the PR:
    404MB for an empty W7
    281MB for an empty W8
    The footprint on the XP machine here at startup is 178MB (over 100MB of which is thanks to the ATI driver it's running).
    Bloating the OS to hell with Vista and then slowly undoing that damage still isn't as good as not utterly screwing things up in the first place, and it's insulting to try and spin it is "look how great we are".

  42. pxe boot install by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I used to use a 1.44 floppy ( hardware based ) then moved to 2.88 img, with win 7 it moved to severall 100Mb wonder if win 8 will move to severall Gb
    i guess its progress of sorts

  43. Crap is costly by DragonHawk · · Score: 1

    You want to spend $50 less on RAM and just use "non bloated software?" You are assuming such hypothetical software would cost no more than $50 extra per machine. As a developer, when you tell me "don't bloat your code," you are telling me several things.

    Actually, when I say "don't bloat your code", I'm not so much talking to you as Microsoft and other large corporate software houses, and mainly what I'm saying is: Don't build program that look like a home stereo, or change the icons in every release, or add animations and gradients and transparency or themeable UIs. Stop changing the UI around every year just because some focus group says it's 3% better -- or worse still, because someone in marketing drew a picture. Don't pump out a new version just to keep revenues up. Don't change formats without cleaning up the design. Stop adding checklist features and chasing whatever consumer trend is hot that year.

    Bloat is load without worthwhile benefit, by definition. You're talking about design trade-offs, which is a something else. Although, getting in to that, I would point out that well-written code is not only usually more lightweight, but also more stable, more reliable, more secure, and easier to debug. So as long as we're looking at total costs, let's look at time spent by the user dealing with bugs and poor design and data loss and patches and security compromises, or time spent by your employees trying to maintain the ungainly mess you wrote so cheaply. Since you bring it up, I mean.

    --

    dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
    I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
  44. More hacks and tweaks... by Alex+Belits · · Score: 0

    ...instead of designing memory management and scheduler that are efficient on their own.

    This is why virtual machines are so great for running Windows -- another layer of bad resource management can't make it any worse.

    --
    Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    1. Re:More hacks and tweaks... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hacks and tweaks? You mean garbage like /proc/sys/vm/overcommit_memory? LOL.

      ...instead of designing memory management and scheduler that are efficient on their own.

      Windows memory management and thread scheduler are sane and are already efficient. Apparently the concept of making progress is lost on a retard like you.

    2. Re:More hacks and tweaks... by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      Hacks and tweaks, as in little special cases everywhere "to make interactive tasks look faster", "to make services run faster", "to find identical DLLs loaded from different files", etc. -- all fixes for overall deficient design, none of them of any use for the user.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
  45. Re:Speaking of Exchange & memmgt by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

    I only read the first few blocks of text, where you appear to be arguing the most insignificant point regarding RAM optimizers. It is generally accepted that whatever benefit they provide, it is minor, and using them to improve performance is time that would have been better spent getting more RAM, if thats truly your bottleneck.

    As for the rest, if you plan to argue with Mark Russinovich on Windows, kernels, or anything else of that nature, I really dont envy the whooping youre likely to receive. Im not sure who you are other than an AC who goes by APK, but Mark Russinovich is one of the leading experts on all things windows, and has made some of the absolute best troubleshooting tools for digging into Windows issues out there.

    Your entire arguments seem to be centered around your insistence that you really do need memory optimizers on Windows, when noone suggests it, none of the best practices analyzers suggest it, none of the MS documentation mentions it, and the ONLY place such a thing gets a mention is in one tool that basically noone uses. For the entirety of my time working on computers (and of my time in school), I have heard time and again the experts saying "dont use them, they do nothing", which is basically true (there are corner cases where in a pinch it might help for a very brief time of high memory pressure to use such an optimizer, but they are very rare, and usually the problem is more fundamentally a shortage of RAM).

    Its so scatterbrained and ridiculous Im not sure why I even bothered to respond, honestly, but here you go.

  46. Milestone by smagruder · · Score: 1

    2011: Microsoft discovers lazy loading.

    --
    Steve Magruder, Metro Foodist
  47. on MY system, Win 8 has lowest mem use of ANY OS.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...because it will never, ever, ever get installed.

    I'm done with that win shit.

  48. RAM is cheap by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

    Nobody today is desoldering and testing and reselling DRAM chips because you wouldn't get paid enough. Modules go to landfills and we make more. By the same token, nobody is conserving memory because it just costs you speed. Sure, we all remember the days when 1MB was a lot. Now, it isn't. Buy some more RAM.

    Bloat is load without worthwhile benefit, by definition.

    Worthwhile to who?

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  49. Re:Very good, & a tidbit on Dr. R. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You must be the most boring person in the entire world. Your continuous long winded, self important, self promoting posts (with their weird formatting that just shouts 'look at me, I'm APK') are an ongoing blight on slashdot.

    Posting anon because you're probably the sort of weirdo who cyberstalks people.

    And no, I won't be reading your no doubt fascinating rebuttal. I've seen enough of your posts to last me a lifetime.

    [Mods, please mod as flamebait; I've been seeing these comments for months without replying and finally snapped today]

  50. Worthwhile to the intended use by DragonHawk · · Score: 1

    Buy some more RAM.

    Since you're not saying anything Runaway1956 didn't say in his original post, I'll just refer you to my original rejection of that assertion.

    Bloat is load without worthwhile benefit, by definition.

    Worthwhile to who?

    One should establish POV during the discussion, true. In this case, I'm arguing for software quality, user productivity, and cost savings. I suppose from the POV of the marketing department, flashy but functionless graphics might considered be worthwhile. However, I think that if you studied user experience, they would find software that works well more worthwhile that something with a pretty package, in the long run. Software is a tool, and a tool should be measured by how well it does its job.

    --

    dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
    I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
  51. Speak 4 yourself stalking as anon. coward by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    See subject-line above, and quit being the pot calling the kettle black.

    APK

  52. Exchange was the topic at hand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    He had proof (MS's docs) that proves that memoptimizers unfroze exchange servers. That is all he noted and it appears to have credible backing. In closing, I'd like to state that Your off topic illogical trolling attacks are your undoing here the most.

  53. I've corrected your "expert" before by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    First, see subject-line above:

    "Im not sure who you are other than an AC who goes by APK, but Mark Russinovich is one of the leading experts on all things windows, and has made some of the absolute best troubleshooting tools for digging into Windows issues out there." - by LordLimecat (1103839) on Saturday October 08, @09:25PM (#37651492)

    I had to show him how/where/when/why a program of his (pagedefrag.exe) had definite "rookie level" hardcodes in it (regarding pagefile.sys location, & registry hive locations also, which the latter I do not *think* he has corrected) I had to tell him about, and give him the code/API's (NtNative type) to correct it. For such an "expert" who "knows all about Windows", he made a poor showing there.

    He & I used to do work for the same companies in the 1990's, & yes, he's done some good work, no questions asked...

    However, my point was, he's NOT "perfect" nor "all-knowing" & "little ole' me" had to correct him in fact... no questions asked.

    He also overlooked a great deal about how/when/where/why memory optimizers are useful, and yes, in terms of memory starvations (one of which YOU yourself brought up, exchange).

    I merely pointed that out to he (along with others using diff. scenarios), & he could not combat it. It was a clear error on his part.

    I, and others also, offered SEVERAL OTHER SCENARIOS over @ Windows IT Pro also where they are useful as well (terminal servers, firefox, & others) because of memory fragmentations issues.

    No questions asked & argue with the facts. See them in the URL below if need be...

    APK

    P.S.=> Lastly - You can attempt to try to "cut me down" all you LIKE, but facts, are facts... see here:

    http://www.windowsitpro.com/article/internals-and-architecture/the-memory-optimization-hoax#feedbackAnchor

    ... apk

    1. Re:I've corrected your "expert" before by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      had to show him how/where/when/why a program of his (pagedefrag.exe) had definite "rookie level" hardcodes in it ....
      He & I used to do work for the same companies in the 1990's, & yes, he's done some good work, no questions asked...

      Im posting here because you seemed so hurt when you responded to me elsewhere.

      So heres my response-- if youre so leet, and Marks a rookie, how come hes a Microsoft Fellow and youre an AC on slashdot? And being honest here, why should I, not knowing anything about you, take your claims over that of Mark Russinovich (and scores of others I could link to)?

  54. Re:Oh even the "tech savy" can be morons about thi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    After that if I saw any memory leaks while coding I fixed them as part of other bugs and then didn't mention it to QA.

    You're probably smarter than me.

    One day you will realize you're not as smart as you think, hopefully before you kill someone. You smug hack.

  55. Re:Oh even the "tech savy" can be morons about thi by NotSoHeavyD3 · · Score: 1

    Well it's not as though I was happy about this.(Really in a perfect world they would be in the bug tracking system.) However the point was that QA had in effect put in the requirement that when you fixed a memory leak the memory had to be released back to the OS so they could check it with task manager. However go check a generic reference for the delete method in C++. It doesn't say the memory gets released to the OS. A specific implementation may do that but many simply don't. (This is stuff I found out when I researched it and really get a general understanding on this.) So basically QA decided on a requirement that could never be satisified for a memory leak. (Since the memory manager wasn't required to release the memory to the OS having that as a requirement on a memory leak bug made them impossible to fix. You could never satisfy the requirement.) As I've said I could show them in a debug build that the leak was fixed. (Since debug did release the memory to the OS. It did this to help us software engineers get our code working properly and in debug you're not supposed to be concerned about speed.) Once you went to release build however the memory manager wouldn't release the memory back to the OS, it'd cache it. (Since apparently that's faster.) As I wrote in my other post I tried to go to the extra mile and pointed out a way that they could test it but they ignored what I said completely. (Basically take the app and run a pair of tests, one right after the other without shutting down the app. With the fix the memory plateaued because of the caching.) They insisted that they had to do it with Task manager and that the memory had to be released back to the OS. (Which was wrong from a technical point of view. Explaining this more than once made no difference. Yes, I really did this more than once.) I should point out the main thing I wanted out of them was to run their automated test suite to make sure I didn't break anything else. (Since I already knew the memory leak they were talking about was fixed so I didn't need them to check that. I needed to know if I broke anything by fixing the memory leak.) So I was going to get this anyway.(Because they always ran those tests on all bugs.) Should I mentioned I talked to a senior engineer about this issue. I basically read between the lines afterward that he had gone through the exact same thing. (Since he mentioned QA should really only do the automated tests on a memory leak since to be more precise you can't even definitively diagnose a memory leak if you can't see the code.) Actually he was one that told me to just find memory leaks as you find them. But the long and short of it is as I've said they didn't get caching. Because they didn't get caching they though something was true about the freeing of memory that actually wasn't true. Because they thought this they came up with requirements that were impossible to satisfy for a memory leak and they wouldn't listen when you tried to explain what they didn't understand and why their requirements were impossible. There really wasn't many other options than just cut them out of the loop when you fixed a memory leak.

    --
    Did you know 80 to 90% of the moderators on slashdot wouldn't recognize a troll even if one dragged them under a bridge.
  56. Funniest part MS is only NOW doing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What I have been 4 decades (working on service cutoff (no run if no NEED)).

    Proof? Ok, & from as FAR BACK AS 1997, to present:

    1997: http://web.archive.org/web/20020205091023/www.ntcompatible.com/article1.shtml

    2001: http://www.neowin.net/news/apk-a-to-z-internet-speedup--security-text

    PRESENT: http://www.google.com/search?sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&site=&source=hp&q=%22HOW+TO+SECURE+Windows+2000%2FXP%22&btnG=Search

    * "Read 'em, & weep", along with my other reply to you here (showing how your "expert", good as he is, is subject to correction, & yes, imperfection...)

    The amazing part, is this though (from my perspective): IF you think you can even BEGIN to attempt to "downtalk me"? You had better show me you have done more in the art & science of computing than I have over time... & I truly do NOT think you can!

    APK

    P.S.=> Lastly/in closing-summation/bottom-line: You've got to remember 1 thing - Like all men, none of us is a "God" - we make mistakes, overlook things, & certainly do NOT "know it all" (& neither does your expert you cited, whom I have had run-ins with a couple times over the years, & with whom I have done work for the same companies with over time, as a peer AND THAT I HAVE CORRECTED and GOTTEN THE "BEST OF" IN DEBATE ON TECHNICAL ISSUES (specifically memmgt, because in the end? The ideas he espoused & that were put into VISTA HAD TO BE CHANGED (cache aggression/memuse for caching))...

    ... apk

  57. Re:Very good, & a tidbit on Dr. R. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You must be the most unaccomplished person in the entire world. Your anonymous coward, unimportant, adhominem attack posts (with their off-topic b.s. that just shouts 'look at me, I'm nothing and I know it as does everyone else') are an ongoing blight on slashdot.

  58. Re:Oh even the "tech savy" can be morons about thi by NotSoHeavyD3 · · Score: 1

    Actually he was one that told me to just find memory leaks as you find them.

    Slight correction, "Fix memory leaks as you find them." is what I meant to say.

    --
    Did you know 80 to 90% of the moderators on slashdot wouldn't recognize a troll even if one dragged them under a bridge.
  59. About time! by bobvious · · Score: 1

    640kb ought to be enough for anybody.

  60. Oh, & WHERE did I say this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    1 thing I do NOT like, is having "words put into my mouth" that I NEVER SAID:

    "Your entire arguments seem to be centered around your insistence that you really do need memory optimizers on Windows" - by LordLimecat (1103839) on Saturday October 08, @09:25PM (#37651492)

    Where's your proof of MY stating that, hmmm?? I stated when & where they can be useful, keeping w/ the subject YOU yourself brought up: Exchange, & yes, with proof of memoptimizers being USEFUL when Exchange "hangs" (I did the same to Dr. Mark Russinovich @ the article from Windows IT Pro & he was left with NO DEFENSE vs. it).

    APK

    P.S.=> No small wonder you ran - after shooting your trap off as you did: Point-Blank now in return from myself? Well... you're full of shit, & I do NOT like having words put into my mouth I never once stated...

    ... apk

  61. OMG!! the Best Windows EVER!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    OH! WINDOWS EIGHT! I'm so excited I think I peed a little. I'm gonna be saving money for a month or six and I'll pre-order my copy, it is ok to call it mine right? Better yet I'll throw away this 6 months old (obsolete) computer and buy a new one with it.
    Wow! if Microsoft says it's gonna be better it's gonna blow your brains away! like vista did, all those people saying otherwise are apple fanboys, and those don't count, and yes I'm deliberately omitting linux weirdo-geeks who cares anyway what a bunch of I-don't-know-how-much percent of (apparently) people thinks if at all.
    Way to go /. stuff that matters indeed.

  62. Facts are facts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That this ac has corrected Dr. Mark Russinovich in his programs before (and I worked for the same companies with Dr. Mark R. too mind you in the past as a peer) and I have gotten the best of he in regards to memmgt in Windows (no questioning that VISTA also had to correct for that as well later in file copies, cache aggression & more there in patches - vs. Dr. Mark Russinovich's & others ideas of dedicate all free RAM memory to cache etc./et al) - and you can't argue with facts.

    Period!

    APK

    P.S.=> Better luck next time troll... apk