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Amazon Bypassing Publishers By Signing Authors Directly

Hugh Pickens writes "David Streitfeld reports that Amazon is aggressively wooing top authors, gnawing away at the services publishers, critics and agents used to provide. 'Everyone's afraid of Amazon,' says Richard Curtis, a longtime agent who is also an e-book publisher. 'The only really necessary people in the publishing process now are the writer and reader,' adds Russell Grandinetti, one of Amazon's top executives. 'Everyone who stands between those two has both risk and opportunity.' But publishers are fighting back at writers who publish with Amazon. In 2010 Kiana Davenport signed with a division of Penguin for The Chinese Soldier's Daughter, a Civil War love story, and received a $20,000 advance. In the meantime Davenport packaged several award-winning short stories she had written 20 years ago and packaged them in an e-book, Cannibal Nights, available on Amazon. When Penguin found out, it went 'ballistic,' accusing her of breaking her contractual promise to avoid competition, canceling her novel, and suing Davenport to recover her advance. Davenport knows her crime: 'Sleeping with the enemy? Perhaps. But now I know who the enemy is.'"

71 of 461 comments (clear)

  1. One company by ColdWetDog · · Score: 5, Funny

    One Company to rule them all, One Click to find them,
    One Company to contract with them all and in the darkness bind them
    In the Land of Profit where the Bezos lies.

    --
    Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    1. Re:One company by jazman_777 · · Score: 2

      Brilliant. But there is a certain poetic justice that Amazon inflicted on Borders and B&N, seeing how they killed so many local bookshops. Who will inflict justice on Amazon?

      --
      Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
    2. Re:One company by magarity · · Score: 2

      Who will inflict justice on Amazon?

      For what injustice does Amazon need justice inflicted in this case? They pay more to authors than the agent/publisher route and readers pay less. Sounds like win-win except the middle men who by definition don't do anything except facilitate and there's less and less to facilitate in that industry these days. I guess you like keeping on no longer needed roles out of a sense of pity and welfare?

    3. Re:One company by PCM2 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But there's an implied hidden "cost" in Amazon's business practices. It's easy to say you offer the lowest prices when you've put everyone else out of business, including the shoddy big-chain bookstores that put the quality local bookstores out of business. Lack of competition in markets is bad, even when it seems to mean the customer saves a buck.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    4. Re:One company by Man+On+Pink+Corner · · Score: 2

      ROFL. Yes, there's an "implied hidden cost" for deadweight middlemen like Penguin.

    5. Re:One company by Fished · · Score: 5, Insightful

      the shoddy big-chain bookstores that put the quality local bookstores out of business.

      You mean the "shoddy" Barnes and Noble that had 100,000 books as compared to the "quality" local bookstore that had 10,000? Or was it that the "shoddy" Barnes & Noble could get me the book they didn't have in two days, but it took the "quality" local bookstore two weeks? Or was it that the "shoddy" Barnes and Noble sold Christian bestsellers at 10-20% below cover price, while the "quality" local Christian bookstore marked them up above cover price? Or the "shoddy" B&N database that let them find just about any book, however obscure, foreign or domestic, and how long it would take them to get it, but the "quality" local bookstore that often just couldn't or wouldn't get the book I wanted?

      Thanks for clarifying.

      There were and are many good reasons for supporting your local booksellers. But, generally, superior quality isn't one of them.

      --
      "He who would learn astronomy, and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere. " -- John Calvin, commenting on Genesis 1
    6. Re:One company by Fished · · Score: 2

      The story may be different in very large cities, and urban cores. I wouldn't know because I've never lived in one. It may also be different if your tastes in books aren't quite so esoteric as mine. The reality, for me, today, is Amazon. But, before Amazon came along, Barnes and Noble was a revelation because, unlike the "quality" local bookstore, they could and would actually order obscure titles in a reasonable period of time. Since then, I've moved to a college town, and I tend to go to the university bookstore that can handle my tastes just fine as well. But I still tend to go to Amazon because they are much faster and much cheaper.

      --
      "He who would learn astronomy, and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere. " -- John Calvin, commenting on Genesis 1
    7. Re:One company by EdIII · · Score: 2

      Who will inflict justice on Amazon?

      Duh.

      A bunch of shoe less midgets walking through the forest on their epic quest.

    8. Re:One company by ChrisMaple · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Many authors need editors in order to produce a worthwhile product. A few don't. Expect the average quality of writing to decline.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    9. Re:One company by Eskarel · · Score: 2

      The problem with Barnes and Noble is not that they were fundamentally bad, it was that they were amazon but with higher fixed costs. You couldn't go to B&N or Borders and find someone who loved books and knew enough about them to recommend something to you, because those people would have been more expensive than teenagers. You couldn't go to B&N and find the obscure book on the shelf because B&N didn't specialize in anything. In the end, you went to B&N or Borders, and paid them more than Amazon charged. If you were looking for something fairly common you could pick it up in store, otherwise you had to wait for them to order it and come back to pick it up. If I order a book off Amazon it's at my doorstep in less than a week and I live on the other side of the world, if I order an e-book it's on my kindle in a few minutes, and Amazon's "recommends" has actually pointed me at some really good books.

      A local bookstore can offer you things that Amazon cannot, specialization, personal service, atmosphere, etc, but B&N and Borders did none of these things, instead they made the same mistake that brick and mortar retailers all over the world have done and tried to compete on price and efficiency with a company with dramatically lower fixed costs, it didn't work for them anymore than it's worked for anyone else.

    10. Re:One company by Eskarel · · Score: 3, Informative

      Or expect Amazon to hire editors.

    11. Re:One company by AzariahK · · Score: 2

      And expect the variety of writing made available, both stories and styles, to go way up. Did we really need gatekeepers? We're about to find out.

    12. Re:One company by tehcyder · · Score: 2

      No one would deny that large chains of bookshops can charge less and have a bigger stock selection, that's fucking self evident. But they're just selling product, whereas the bookshop owner/manager is actually interested in books.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    13. Re:One company by jimicus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Exactly. I can think of quite a few businesses that a similar analogy can be applied to:

      Here in the UK a lot of neighbourhood pubs have gone. And there's this fantasy going around that the pubs that have gone were all selling a wide range of high-quality beer and good food at a reasonable price; when they closed down it came as a great surprise.

      But that's all it is. A fantasy. Without even thinking I can name several pubs that haven't been decorated in years, have walls that are still heavily nicotine stained despite the fact that smoking was banned in public places in 2007; carpet that's threadbare in places and sticky in others. The toilets are a health hazard, they don't do food (or if they do it tastes like they cooked it in the toilet), they've got a lousy range of beer, an equally lousy choice of cider (considering this is Somerset this is practically a criminal offence!), they don't feel particularly welcoming when you go in and they charge prices more commensurate with a fancy city-centre bar.

      Specifically, a fancy city-centre bar that serves good food, has clean toilets, a floor you don't stick to and walls that if they're a yellow-brown colour, are obviously intended to be.

      These are the pubs that are going out of business. The world has changed and they haven't.

  2. Amazon is just another publisher. by Kenja · · Score: 2

    If the contract gave exclusive distribution rights to Penguin then the author is in breach of contract. Seems simple to me.

    --

    "Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
    1. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by 0123456 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Amazon is a retailer; it's only recently become a publisher as well. From what they've said, one of the reasons why established authors have been signing up with Amazon as a publisher is that their contracts are far more author-friendly than trade publishers.

    2. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by CanHasDIY · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The contract gave Penguin exclusive rights to The Chinese Soldier's Daughter, not every single piece ever written by the author.

      Assuming so is treading in dangerous waters.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    3. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by LWATCDR · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That depends. They got a deal for the novel "The Chinese Soldier's Daughter". She repackaged a collection short stories and sold them on Amazon.
      Did the publisher have any rights to those short stories? She did sign a non-compete but does a collection of short stories compete with a novel?
      At this point we are into lawyer land where logic and reason do not apply.
      Kind of like the Twilight Zone except without the almost universal just outcome.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    4. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by lennier1 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Of course. If the whole chain is in-house they'll be able to eliminate a lot of unnecessary overhead, making it more efficient and profitable than having to deal with external business partners stuck in the 19th century.

    5. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by msauve · · Score: 4, Insightful

      One can easily make up "if this, then that" scenarios. But, they're all worthless.

      The author says she didn't violate the contract. The publisher's actions imply that they think she did. From the author's description, it sounds like a "no compete" clause, not an "exclusivity" one. The author says one of the e-published works was actually published prior to their contract. The e-published works were short story collections, which according to the author, contained subject matter different than the contracted novel.

      She says that the works were previously rejected by the "big six" publishers, which includes Penguin. From that, it seems to me that Penguin, by their prior rejection of the work, had already determined that it wasn't competitive.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    6. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by haystor · · Score: 5, Interesting

      There is significant case law on the matter. Further, an advance of $20k to not work in the entire field of writing for 2 years won't get any traction in court.

      Non compete in this sense means those characters/story/universe don't get presented somewhere else. That the publisher gets first release of not just the book, but anything to do with the book.

      This is bullying an author, plain and simple. (if the story is as the author has written)

      --
      t
    7. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The question is, do you really want Amazon to be the only place you can get books?

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    8. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      According to the author they were two entirely different works, and even different subject matter, and she doesn't believe she was in breach of contract...

      Now if she signed some sort of "I'll publish everything through you" exclusive contract, or right to first sale of all her works, or some similar contract, she may well have been in breach, but that's not what it sounds like here.

    9. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2

      If the contract gave exclusive distribution rights to Penguin then the author is in breach of contract. Seems simple to me.

      It is extremely common for publishing contracts to feature a reversion clause where, once the book goes out of print(for a generally agreed-upon definition of 'out of print', which, incidentally, is a concept being shaken up a bit by the fact that many of these contracts were written before it was economic to keep a book 'in print' by listing it basically for free in some electronic database at a relatively stiff sticker price and print-on-demand-ing it if anybody actually bites) the rights revert to the author.

      For a bunch of short stories, published 20 years ago, and unrelated to the book being written for publication today, it is quite likely that they had reverted, if their had ever been exclusive rights in the first place.

      What makes me suspect that one or the other of these is so is that Penguin resorted to indirect threats and retaliation against an unrelated project, rather than just hitting the author for copyright infringement or breach of contract RE: the short story collection. If they actually had a case(either by having purchased the copyright, or by having purchased exclusive right to publication), they would have had very strong ground to crush the author for publishing elsewhere. They didn't...

    10. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by DrgnDancer · · Score: 3, Informative

      Depends how the contract is worded. The author seems to think she gave Penguin exclusivity on her new book, not her old stuff. I've never heard of a publishing company having a fit when you publish old stuff (previously published no less, just bound up in a new collection), while working on a book for them. It's possible that Penguin writes their contacts that way and the author simply misunderstood or didn't read carefully enough, but it seems really odd to me. It sounds like Penguin is interpreting a non-compete clause rather more liberally than is traditional in order to punish the author for going through Amazon. I don't have all the facts of course, she may have legitimately broken faith with them, but from what we have that doesn't appear to be that case.

      --
      I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
    11. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by nedlohs · · Score: 2

      If the publisher thought she had they'd be sueing, surely? Espeically considering they seem to want to punish the author.

      Seems more likely (without ever having seen the contract or even the "normal" version of one) that they are pissed and using some "right to cancel" clause to say she has to return the advance and they give her back the rights. Or even just deciding to eat the sunk cost and sit on the work for the length of their contract without publishing it - and offering to cancel the deal if she returns the deposit as a separate item.

      But it's all guesswork without seeing the contract and communications, which isn't going to happen.

    12. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by anyGould · · Score: 2

      And considering she has a lawyer involved, it's a safe bet that the contract doesn't say anything of the sort - it's one of the basic gotchas of publishing.

    13. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by jazman_777 · · Score: 2

      Seems simple to me.

      When it comes to law, nothing is as simple as it seems.

      Step 1: Check your common sense at the door.

      --
      Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
    14. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by PCM2 · · Score: 2

      I can totally see Penguin's position.

      Penguin puts up $20,000 to publish a book by an author. The contract specifies that the author must do a certain amount of publicity to help sell the book. That might be something as easy as calling up a radio show and saying, "I have a new novel coming out from Penguin." Now, from what I'm reading this book hasn't even been published yet. In the meantime, the same author pulls out a stack of old short stories and publishes them on her own. From now on, whenever she calls up a radio show she'll be saying, "I have a new novel coming out from Penguin and I have a collection of short stories available now from Amazon." Which is the radio listener likely to go out and buy -- the one that hasn't even come out yet or the one they can get today? And having bought one book by the author, do they really have budget for a second, whenever it does ship? What if they read the short stories -- which are old, and not edited by the Penguin editors -- and decide they're no good? The short stories might not reflect the quality of the book the Penguin bought and edited, but they set the customer's expectation for any future works by the author, so they pass.

      I think the people who are characterizing this contractual relationship as some kind of indentured servitude are a little naïve. Most people who hand you a lump sum of $20,000, up front, product unseen, are going to require a few things of you. For you not to directly compete with your own products seems like a reasonable expectation, provided the terms are laid out clearly.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    15. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by haystor · · Score: 2

      That's typical for a music contract.

      It is pretty much unheard of for a book contract, especially at the $20k advance level. Publishers know writers are writing all the time on numerous topics.

      Also, music is music. Contracts are made for the next "album". You can't writer a different album when they have dibs on the next one. Authors receive an advance for a particular work. The publisher knows the work they are buying and in this case they know fully well that the already existant work that they rejected is *not* the work they were buying.

      --
      t
    16. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by Savantissimo · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Not only were the short story collections she published with Amazon already published by other publishers, they had been submitted to the Big 6 publisher who is currently breaching its contract. The Big 6 publisher had specifically said that they did not want to publish the short story collections, and the author has the rejection notices to prove it.

      So the publisher basically hasn't got a leg to stand on. Their interpretation of the contract is void, in restraint of trade, tortured to justify their fear and hatred of the possibility of any competition from Amazon, even when no such threat exists in this case. Further, they are trying to effectively exert ownership over works that are not only NOT under contract, but had specifically been rejected by them, and to claim rights to put out of print without further compensation all the author's past works and works up to two years in the future (when they are contractually obligated to publish her novel).

      She has an excellent chance of prevailing in court, for far more than the advance - this firm is trying to destroy her career, to make sure she is never published by anyone but Amazon if she publishes anything with Amazon. This is really a case that the NY AG and the Justice Department could slam-dunk on multiple counts, too.

      --
      "Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?" - Patrick Henry
    17. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by Savantissimo · · Score: 2

      The publisher had rejected these works that were later published on Amazon. These rejections happened before the publisher accepted her novel. The short story collections were published elsewhere before the novel was accepted, and went out of print (or at least contract) before the novel was accepted. One of the two collections was republished on Amazon before the novel contract was signed, the other was republished after the contract was signed.

      In any event, the publisher can not claim rights over past works not a part of the contract, nor can it interfere with her publishing other works which are not a part of the contract. She is not an employee, and cannot be bound by contract terms in restraint of trade, or impairing her ability to earn a living at her profession selling to other publishers. If the publisher now wants rights to other books, let them negotiate for that - she is under no obligation to agree, though, and they are obligated by the contract they have already signed, no matter whether the author gives them what they want or not in other negotiations.

      --
      "Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?" - Patrick Henry
    18. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by DrgnDancer · · Score: 2

      Most of that makes very little sense. First, these are already published works. They're already associated with her, and are already out there. She's just put them into a new collection. They're also apparently award winning pieces. That tends to argue against them being not up to Pengiun's standards. They're probably at least part of the basis on which they offered her a contract in the first place. As to the advertising thing, again, this is old work. She might mention it while on the radio... but she might just as well mention the collections the stories originally appeared in or one of her earlier novels. We're not talking about some lady who just wrote her first book and is throwing some old crap from college together into a collection. She's an established writer with a long history. She's got lots of published material which she continues to have a vested interest in selling. That's the baggage you get when you chose to sign an established author instead of taking an chance on a new talent.

      --
      I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
    19. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by LWATCDR · · Score: 2

      Not really she is working on royalties and not salary. She is not an employee. The thing is that we do not know what the contract says so who knows.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    20. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by Kjella · · Score: 2

      Step 2: Accept that legalese exists for the same reason software developers don't program in English. It is hard to precisely define or decipher the contents of a contract, you will need to learn a special vocabulary.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    21. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by spire3661 · · Score: 2

      Jerry: "Excuse me I'd like to return this jacket."

      Teller: "Certainly. May I ask why?"

      Jerry: "........For spite..."

      Teller: "Spite?"

      Jerry: "That's right. I don't care for the salesman that sold it to me."

      Teller: "I don't think you can return an item for spite."

      --
      Good-bye
    22. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by greg1104 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      For you not to directly compete with your own products seems like a reasonable expectation, provided the terms are laid out clearly.

      If you think any of the terms of a typical publisher contract are laid out clearly, you have completely missed the point. My book went into print a year ago, and it seems every month I find a new way I'm being screwed I didn't see coming. The latest wrinkle involves how I don't get any per-copy royalties for the foreign translations (of which there currently are one). This means I'm now competing against the foreign copies of my own book! It's in there, now that I go back and re-read the dense fine print in that one section, but "laid out clearly" is certainly is not. Like a lot of contract exchanges, the publishing company has enormously more legal resources to craft a contract that benefits them, compared to any one author. This is why the contracts all favor the publisher, and authors normally feel abused--unless you're a famous enough author to have your own agent and legal team.

      The idea that the advance on a book represents some giant sum the publisher should get all sorts of benefits from is exactly the line of thinking that needs to be stopped here. Publishers used to lay out that money and a large second sum for printing of books, which may or may not get sold. They were assuming a lot of risk, and traditional publication contracts reflect that. But it's not true any more, as printing moves to on-demand or not at all, in the e-book case. Much like the big music industry, publishers haven't quite figured out yet they can easily end up being only minimally useful middle-men to experienced content creators. And like a lot of negotiation the easiest way to get better terms is to just walk away altogether. The big decision on my next book isn't "which publisher", it's "do I need a regular publisher at all?". Right now, one of the biggest problems I have is that my publisher screwed up the Kindle version of my book; they just didn't do the QA to make it readable. I'm pretty sure Amazon has that down had they done it themselves.

    23. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by RocketRabbit · · Score: 2

      It's not so much as they're stupid and don't care, it's more like the publishing industry is stupid and people don't care if it gets thrown under a bus.

    24. Re:Amazon is just another publisher. by arkhan_jg · · Score: 2

      It's not even the same characters; the short stories were written years ago, and none of them are even in the same genre as the book she's writing for penguin. They're reading the non-compete clause to mean any work written by the author cannot be published by amazon, regardless of association to the current book, or when it was written or previously; they even tried to complain about her first short story compilation that was published by amazon before she even signed the contract for the new book with penguin! (until her lawyer slapped them down on that, at least).

      To expect complete publishing veto over all an author's work, past or present, for two years over a contract for a single book and an advance of $20k is ridiculous.

      Clearly the moral of the tale is, don't publish your book through penguin as they think they then own you and your entire back catalog - even when it's not mentioned in the contract at all, and even when they have no interest in publishing it themselves!

      --
      Remember kids, it's all fun and games until someone commits wholesale galactic genocide.
  3. Publisher Pricing by MozeeToby · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Maybe they got tired of having to qualify every eBook price with "This price was set by the publisher".

    Want to know what's wrong with the eBook market? Just check out this page; $15 for a poorly scanned version of a book that was written more than 40 years ago, that's available new in paperback and even hardcover for less. Seriously? Who the hell comes up with these pricing models? Even as a huge eBook fan there's been plenty of books that I've passed on because I just can't justify the cost for a digital copy, even ignoring the fact that the digital copy is DRM'd to Amazon's tool set.

    1. Re:Publisher Pricing by 0123456 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Who the hell comes up with these pricing models?

      Publishers who don't want people buying ebooks and destroying their dead tree book market.

    2. Re:Publisher Pricing by Lumpy · · Score: 2

      Buy a new paperbvack copy and download a epub from piratebay.

      Honestly, if the ebook version is a joke, then sidestep them.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    3. Re:Publisher Pricing by mewsenews · · Score: 2

      Want to know what's wrong with the eBook market? Just check out this page; $15 for a poorly scanned version of a book that was written more than 40 years ago

      I tried....:

      This title is not available for customers from:
      Canada

  4. If Amazon is smart... by MikeRT · · Score: 3, Interesting

    They'd offer her $40k + legal expenses. This is a pissing match, plain and simple.

    1. Re:If Amazon is smart... by blair1q · · Score: 4, Interesting

      If they were actually smart, they'd offer her $40k + legal expenses + require she write a book about her experience kicking her publisher in the nuts.

    2. Re:If Amazon is smart... by Savantissimo · · Score: 2

      Yeah! If Amazon doesn't step up to the plate against this kind of abuse of authors, authors will know that down the road Amazon probably intends on crushing them just as the publishers did.

      --
      "Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?" - Patrick Henry
  5. There is room for both. by DurendalMac · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think some people are too quick to write off the publishing industry. They still provide things you won't find on Amazon, such as EDITORS. An early author may be able to put a book together, but sometimes they need a very experienced set of eyes to help them fix problems and eliminate some cruft. An experienced writer may not need one as much (although they generally still do), but starting authors almost certainly will. You also cannot get your ebook into nearly as many hands as a hardcopy. Any literate person with functional eyes can read a hardcopy, but you need a Kindle or similar device to read an ebook.

    What I hope to see from this is two competing markets. Hopefully this will coax the publishing industry to give authors a better cut. Maybe that's a bit too pie-in-the-sky, but it's possible. Let's hope the publishing industry can adapt better than the goddamned RIAA.

    1. Re:There is room for both. by Hatta · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think some people are too quick to write off the publishing industry. They still provide things you won't find on Amazon, such as EDITORS.

      Editors are important, but you don't need to sign with a publishing house to get your book edited. There's nothing stopping you from hiring a freelance editor and publishing on Amazon if you think it's necessary.

      In the end, I think the market will make the decision here. If publishers add value, then readers will stick with traditional publishers. If they don't, then Amazon will win.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    2. Re:There is room for both. by liquidweaver · · Score: 2

      I'm pretty sure hiring an editor for $10k and then self publishing is a far better deal than handing a lion's share of your profit to a publisher over 20,40,80 years.

      --
      mov ah, 4ch
      int 21h
    3. Re:There is room for both. by 91degrees · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Editors are important, but you don't need to sign with a publishing house to get your book edited. There's nothing stopping you from hiring a freelance editor and publishing on Amazon if you think it's necessary.

      Lack of money is. Ultimately a publisher these days is simply a one stop shop offering a loan, editing, typesetting, cover art, promotion, distribution and a selection of other tasks that are needed to make a book successful.

      You could get all that yourself from other sources but I suspect few lenders would lend you money on the same terms - no requirement to pay it all back until your writing careers is a success.

    4. Re:There is room for both. by h4rr4r · · Score: 2

      Amazon has editors that they can and do provide. They can in fact offer all that stuff. The article told me so.

    5. Re:There is room for both. by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 4, Informative

      Ultimately a publisher these days is simply a one stop shop offering a loan, editing, typesetting, cover art, promotion, distribution and a selection of other tasks that are needed to make a book successful.

      No, 30 years ago that's what a publisher was. These days only a very, very small minority of those authors who get picked up by publishers get that (i.e. the ones who are already best sellers). Everyone else gets a negligible advance, negligible editing, typesetting they could have done themselves, cover art, no promotion, minimal distribution (their book goes into the distribution catalogues, but hardly onto shelves, which the author could have done on their own) and no other services.

    6. Re:There is room for both. by Luckyo · · Score: 2

      Ultimately a publisher these days is simply a one stop shop offering a loan, editing, typesetting, cover art, promotion, distribution and a selection of other tasks that are needed to make a book successful.

      No, 30 years ago that's what a publisher was. These days only a very, very small minority of those authors who get picked up by publishers get that (i.e. the ones who are already best sellers). Everyone else gets a negligible advance, negligible editing, typesetting they could have done themselves, cover art, no promotion, minimal distribution (their book goes into the distribution catalogues, but hardly onto shelves, which the author could have done on their own) and no other services.

      That's how publishers worked 30 years ago too. If you're a small, unknown author, you don't get much. This is just another version of "in my days, we had to walk to school barefoot in the snow, uphill both ways".

      Quite simply, this is about budgeting. If a publisher provided every writer wannabe with top level service, it would be broke within a year.

    7. Re:There is room for both. by west · · Score: 2

      Not just a lion's share...they get the copyright.

      Um, not in the vast majority of fiction (work-for-hire is a different kettle of fish, but not all that common except for works in somebody else's world.). Open up any fiction book to the front piece and notice who the copyright is assigned to.

    8. Re:There is room for both. by Bucky24 · · Score: 2

      Generally authors don't sell copyright to publishers, they sell printing rights, and those tend to expire eventually.

      --
      All the world's a CPU, and all the men and women merely AI agents
    9. Re:There is room for both. by adri · · Score: 2

      The crowd sources Jersey Shore, Do You Think You Can Dance and The Biggest Loser.

      Please, try again.

  6. Good! by drunkennewfiemidget · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The more of these middle man made-up positions we can remove, the better.

    Next up: record executives, realtors, and oil prospectors.

    1. Re:Good! by WillDraven · · Score: 2

      As somebody who works in real estate, I can say, that while the average slashdotter may not need one, the average joe has absolutely no idea how to buy or sell a house. At least half of a realtors job is hand holding clients to keep them from doing something incredibly stupid. They don't always listen, and at the end of the day the realtor is your agent and if you insist on being dumb the realtor will execute that dumb decision for you. I'm not saying there aren't bad realtors. If you pick any profession you can find examples of morons working it, but if you have a competent professional realtor it is in your average buyer/seller's best interest to listen to them.

      --
      This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is mine.
  7. Re:Grandinetti is an idiot: by 0123456 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Firstly, his quote is entirely untrue. If there were noone between the writer and reader, you'd end up with lackluster works.

    Have you been to a bookstore lately?

    Sparkly Vampire #16, Sparkly Werewolf #5, Oscar Wilde - Vampire Hunter (Ok, I might read that one), Zombies Vs Vampires #9, More Zombies #97.

    There's a reason why I mostly buy self-published books these days; they may have more typos, but at least there's some variety in the stories for sale.

  8. Good... by Lumpy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Publishers typically have been leeches. Sucking 98% of the profit out of a book.

    It's high time that writers were able to sell to a reader and keep most of the sale, they did 90% of the work, they deserve 90% of the sale price.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    1. Re:Good... by bdam · · Score: 2

      Disclaimer: I work for a book publisher. The author takes nearly zero percent of the financial risks. Contracts vary of course but it is typical for an author to receive an advance on signing the contract and on delivering the manuscript. These are advances against the royalty the book is expected to earn but unless there is a breach of contract that advance is not returned to the publisher. The publisher then puts all the money up front to edit, design, print, and distribute the book to retailers. If the book does not sell then the publisher gives the retailer a full refund and eats the whole thing as a loss. E-books are great because they take out the costs associated with printing the books and dealing with returns but they still eat the costs when a book flops ... and most books flop. So yes, self publishing is a great option for those authors who are willing to invest the time to write a book, the money to hire professional editors and designers, and the risk that they won't make a dime. Oh, and they have to figure out how to market it, convert it into an e-book, and deal with all the sales bullshit. This might be crazy talk but most authors are dedicated people who love to write books. Few desire to spend the time and energy on the business side of things to produce, market, and sell those books.

    2. Re:Good... by west · · Score: 2

      Publishers typically have been leeches. Sucking 98% of the profit out of a book.

      Wow. Know *anything* about the industry?

      Let me give you the fundamentals: Now that we have viable self-publishing, there are perhaps 100,000 books published a month, and if we look at sf/fantasy genre fiction, a few thousand books published a month (all but maybe 50-100 self-published) in your particular genre. Most readers aren't even going to *look* at more than 30-40 titles a month, so there needs to be some filtering mechanism. This is why a self-published book by an unknown author sells on average a few dozen copies.

      Moreover, it's a trap. Anything that a self-published author can do to promote the book, the other 2,000 authors can do as well. Still too many books for any human being to even look at. Reviews? Reviewers face the same problem, even if they're willing to wade the sea of self-published books, they're going to review a handful a month, and, to be honest, most (not all, but most) won't be of high quality, which is why they were self-published anyway.

      Publishers basically serve the function of gatekeeper because they're willing to invest $20K of their money in the book, and most importantly of all, they don't care about the author, only about how they think the author's book will appeal to the reader. This means their opinion means something (unlike if the author invested the money in themselves), and is the sole reason why bookstores will carry a traditionally published book and won't touch self-published ones. They too need someway of reducing a few thousand titles into a few dozen and publishers are the only way of doing so for new and unknown authors.

      Without publishers, every author I know would be doing something else for a living and bookstores as we know it wouldn't exist.

      Sorry, but the idea that the world beats a path to the door of the inventor of the better mousetrap is something for teenagers to believe in. Surely you're old enough to have a somewhat more nuanced view of the world?

  9. Editors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It's not just writers and readers...any successful writer will tell you that editors are also an essential part of the process. Amazon will either have to provide authors with editors or come up with a situation where editors can work on projects as independent contractors.

  10. Re:Grandinetti is an idiot: by Lumpy · · Score: 2

    You are telling me that all writers are no talent hacks and the publisher makes their book fantastic?

    So let me guess, the harry potter books direct from JK Rowling are full of profanity and nudity and the publisher fixed them into the books that sold like hotcakes and everyone wanted to read...

      Let me guess, you also have a nice bridge in Manhattan that you will sell me for a deal. I know several writers and all of them are looking forward to the day they can bypass the publisher. Most of them are angry that the publishers don't even supply the services they used to, like editors and reviewers to go over the books several times before publishing, they have to hire their own out of their own pocket.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  11. Re:Writers ahoy! Self-publish! by 0123456 · · Score: 2

    You know how it's done, so what do you need Amazon for?

    Marketing.

    Self-publishing through Amazon or other e-book retailers is fine, but for many authors having Amazon push your book through their marketing capabilities (e.g. 'You bought 'An Ideal Husband', so you might like 'An Ideal Husband And Zombies') is worth a percentage of royalties and potential restrictions on other e-book retailers who might not want to sell Amazon-published books.

  12. Re:Amazon... by gstoddart · · Score: 2

    Of course, the flip-side to that is that you as a new author are quite likely to languish as nobody is interested in your work because nobody has heard of you.

    What we've been seeing with iTunes and people who self-publish these things through Amazon, is that you can potentially make vastly more by selling it cheaply and having a large number of people download it and you get paid directly than you would otherwise. If you're getting 75% or so of each $0.99 download, versus the few pennies (or less) you'd make otherwise, you get much more cash.

    Assuming you got past your terrible "grammer" and spelling, you might find you could make more by cutting out the middle-men and letting Amazon do the selling.

    That's likely what they're banking on, and if they could get some exclusive content from successful authors, they could potentially make a truckload of money by not having to pay the publishers.

    --
    Lost at C:>. Found at C.
  13. They take profit from successful books by sirwired · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Publishers take a lot of the profit from successful books. They also end up paying a lot of advances on complete duds on which they lost money. (Same thing with music labels.) Vanity publishing has always been available to authors that think they can make more money by cutting out the middleman. (If you could convince a bookstore to carry the things... most booksellers have better things to do than wade through self-published crap.)

    I agree that the traditional publishing model is now becoming outdated with the advent of e-books, but it had it's purpose at the time.

  14. Re:Now just one point of failure by jandrese · · Score: 2

    Isn't Step 2: Find some content to put on your network? I mean if you have no authors from any major publisher on your store, how do you expect to attract people to it? It's sort of like those MP3 stores that existed before iTunes where your choice was "horrible overpriced mess with obnoxious DRM and scant handful songs from one label" or "Indie crap that appeals to maybe a few dozen people worldwide, and then mostly so they can be more indie than you." Both models were terrible failures for obvious reasons.

    The difficulty isn't in setting up a DRM free marketplace, it is getting content on that marketplace. If it's good people will buy it, but good luck getting anything good when you have to work completely outside of the publishers. You'll get a few titles from authors willing (or desperate) enough to take the chance, but you're competing with publishers that will put out literally thousands of quality titles (and tens of thousands of crap titles).

    --

    I read the internet for the articles.
  15. Re:Amazon has editors too by Raenex · · Score: 2

    If you were to actually read TFA by the NYT

    It was behind a login wall for me. Fuck that. Slashdotters barely bother reading articles, nevermind putting up with stupid barriers.

  16. Re:It won't matter by idontgno · · Score: 2

    Penguin can rage at the dying of the light....but that will only make it run out of breath sooner.

    I prefer the poetic image of star systems slipping through Penguin's fingers the more they tighten their grip, but I don't know why.

    --
    Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
  17. Re:It won't matter by jason8 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I think it's amusing that Penguin is involved here (although it may as well be any publisher for this particular story).

    When Penguin was founded in the 1930s, they were probably as much of a disruptive force as Amazon is now. Paperbacks were pretty much unheard of. At the time new books -- which meant cloth-bound books -- generally cost about 6 shillings, or say about 20-30 pounds in today's UK money, or 40-60 US$. The first Pengins were sold for 6 pence, or 2-3 pounds, or 4-6 US$. All the original Penguins were reprints, i.e. not new original works but titles licensed from other publishers. The public reaction was positive. The publishing community started with an attitude of amused skepticism, and soon evolved to something like fear, as they watched Penguin cannibalize their sales.

    These days Penguin is still around, having outlived and/or absorbed most of the old British publishing companies. It's interesting to think that they might be confronting an upheaval in the industry similar to the one they caused themselves 80 years ago.