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Fish Evolve Immunity To Toxic Sludge

RedEaredSlider writes "Fish in the Hudson River and the harbor in New Bedford, Mass., have evolved resistance to PCBs. In the Hudson, a species of tomcod has evolved a way for a very specific protein to simply not bind to PCBs, nearly eliminating the toxicity. In New Bedford, the Atlantic killifish has proteins that bind to the toxin (just as they do in mammals) but the fish aren't affected despite high levels of PCBs in their cells. Why the killifish survive is a mystery."

267 comments

  1. So, dump more sludge? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    It's good for evolution!

    1. Re:So, dump more sludge? by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      No, an intelligent fish designed its offspring to be resistant. :-)

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    2. Re:So, dump more sludge? by kilodelta · · Score: 1

      No kidding. This along with many experimental models prove that everything evolves, including bacterial colonies. And now proof that complex organisms can spontaneously evolve, I wonder how the 6,000 year old earthers will respond.

    3. Re:So, dump more sludge? by MightyMartian · · Score: 0

      Hopefully you never evolve any immunity to a number of horrible infectious diseases.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    4. Re:So, dump more sludge? by RandomAvatar · · Score: 1

      Indeed, maybe nig- I mean, African-Americans- will evolve the ability to live in an environment without poisoning everything around them. Then again, they aren't nearly as clever as some fish....

      Well, freedom of speech here has been exercised. Unfortunately, so has this persons power of racism, lack of manners, and idiocy. It is a shame that there are people like you still around, I thought most modern people were beyond such pettiness.

    5. Re:So, dump more sludge? by Pseudonym+Authority · · Score: 1

      My advice: Stop falling for such an obvious troll and your outlook on life will be much improved.

      If this were a thread in a story about eugenics, then it may be legit, but since the comment in question was only tangentially connected to the story, you should immediately tell that it is a troll.

      Then again, I seem to be the only one who can tell a goatse link from a legit link without clicking 95% of the time, so I may just have a gift.

    6. Re:So, dump more sludge? by Lord+Kano · · Score: 1

      Don't let them ruffle your feathers. The reason they do this is because they lost a girl to a black guy and can't get over it.

      LK

      --
      "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
    7. Re:So, dump more sludge? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have you noticed that all of the "flash mob" robberies are always committed by Africans, as have been those who commit violent, racially motivated beatings of whites?

    8. Re:So, dump more sludge? by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      I don't hate your freedom of speech, you vicious vile repugnant soulless coward, I hate your speech. I really do hope your death is horrific by the standards of any culture in our species' history, and as you linger in mind-destroying agony, the only human being that comforts you as you beg for your life to end is black.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    9. Re:So, dump more sludge? by bocin · · Score: 1

      Not a bigot. Not a racist. Not a hater. Sir you are a TROLL! Most likely a G.N.A troll. Busted?

    10. Re:So, dump more sludge? by bocin · · Score: 1

      I agree. He is certainly a troll!

    11. Re:So, dump more sludge? by vinehair · · Score: 1

      Have you noticed that all of the "flash mob" robberies are always committed by Africans, as have been those who commit violent, racially motivated beatings of whites?

      Have you noticed that pedophiles are always white?

    12. Re:So, dump more sludge? by ThreeDeeNut · · Score: 1

      You do realize that African Americans have received more of a dumping on than nearly any other race in history? If I were black, I'd probably be rioting as well. From initial enslavemet, rejected equal education, housing prices automatically reduced by banks should a black buy a home (making the neighbors angry). While white kids went to school, blacks went deeper into poverty. Take any human and subjugate them, expect the same results. Try turning off your bigotry and realize we are all here against the tide of hate. It hurts all of our middle to low income folks to feed into the misguided anger and hate. I am not saying give them help and money because I believe that is just further enslavement, but for god's sake, they are people. Leave them alone, its hard enough in this world without morons like you people making it worse. P.S. If you remember correctly, whites throughout history have acted out in riots... most relevantly, the formation of america. Im sure the brits were like "see, give those stupid English peasants (many indentured servants) an inch and they turn into hooligans. How dare they disrespect our authority!"

    13. Re:So, dump more sludge? by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      Humans can evolve to survive much worse. Just look at Charlie Sheen.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    14. Re:So, dump more sludge? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Please don't confuse GNA with GNAA.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  2. Yeah creationist ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    I'm sorry, but i can't hear you over the sound of how awesome those fishes are!!

    1. Re:Yeah creationist ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Indeed. Fish that have resistance qualities to printed circuit boards? Maybe we can have them make our iWidgets.

      This should go swimmingly.

    2. Re:Yeah creationist ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I don't see how a mutation in a fish proves or disproves creation. Creationist just believe it all started at the word of a God. It doesn't exclude the idea creation has the ability to adapt to changes.

    3. Re:Yeah creationist ? by Pseudonym+Authority · · Score: 2

      You are correct, it doesn't prove or disprove creationism because creationism isn't a scientific theory.

    4. Re:Yeah creationist ? by zAPPzAPP · · Score: 0

      Nothing disproves that, as that would be impossible (magic did it). But it makes them look more stupid, when they try to argue around every new finding. :)

    5. Re:Yeah creationist ? by Dutchmaan · · Score: 1

      I didn't hear anything about proving or disproving anything in the parent post. It is in all likelihood a jab at creationists as a shown example of an organism exhibiting traits of evolution for a very specific purpose. Also, for the record, while it is true that the idea of creation doesn't preclude the notion of the ability to adapt. Most creationists are firm deniers of evolution, and the parent post was in all probability a jab at them.

    6. Re:Yeah creationist ? by Majik+Sheff · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problem here is that any argument (I hesitate to call it debate or even discussion) involving evolution vs creation is that it immediately degrades into an "us" vs "them" fight.

      To the hardcore evolutionists, all creationists get lumped together. It doesn't matter if their stance is "I don't think the big bang was an accident" or "the Bible says the Earth is 4000 years old, so that's how old the Earth is". You're a superstitious and mentally deficient nutjob who is at best to be ignored and at worst should be sterilized and exiled.

      The converse also occurs. To a fundamentalist creationist, anyone ranging from "I could see how evolution might account for certain things" to "evolution is the correct and only possible explanation" is a godless empty shell of a human who at best should be shunned and at worst should be burned at the stake.

      Modern science is built around the idea that you can never actually prove a theory, only disprove it and build a better theory. When you stop trying to disprove your models and accept them as truth, you stop being a scientist and step into the realm of faith.

      It's been my experience that fights are not between scientists and zealots; they are between zealots and other zealots.

      --
      Women are like electronics: you don't know how damaged they are until you try to turn them on.
    7. Re:Yeah creationist ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're trolling aside, the writer of this blurb and article troll much further by saying "evolved" instead of "developed" as it's more correct and in line with actual evolution and biological responses such as developing immunities to external poisons or infections.

    8. Re:Yeah creationist ? by AvitarX · · Score: 2

      Most creationists I know don't believe in speciation, but do believe individual species change and adapt.

      They also believe in animals having sex to spread genes and adapt. It's simply an argument about the source of Bio diversity.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    9. Re:Yeah creationist ? by vadim_t · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Modern science is built around the idea that you can never actually prove a theory, only disprove it and build a better theory. When you stop trying to disprove your models and accept them as truth, you stop being a scientist and step into the realm of faith.

      There's just two problems with that one:

      1. There's enough evidence for evolution that it must be mostly correct
      2. If evolution is flawed, it won't result in concessions towards the creationist stance

      For instance, take Newton. Yes, he wasn't entirely correct. But what he figured out, in the conditions he tested it in, worked. That Newton wasn't 100% correct didn't suddenly mean that the reality was any more aligned with the view of Aristotle.

      The same way, the argument isn't about whether evolution exists. That got figured out long ago, even before scientists figured out how genetics work. The current arguments are all about the details of it. That the current understanding isn't 100% correct isn't going to suddenly mean that the creationist stance is right, it's just going to mean that some of the details weren't entirely correct, like exactly how some features evolved, how important different mechanisms are, and so on.

    10. Re:Yeah creationist ? by nomadic · · Score: 1

      "It doesn't matter if their stance is "I don't think the big bang was an accident" "

      Frankly, that's a strawman. You're essentially saying all those who believe in evolution are atheists, which is demonstrably false. If you went to an evolutionary biology conference and said "I believe God created the Big Bang, and once life arose, evolution kicked in" most would have no problem with that and would not qualify you as a "creationist."

    11. Re:Yeah creationist ? by tomhudson · · Score: 1

      If you went to an evolutionary biology conference and said "I believe God created the Big Bang, and once life arose, evolution kicked in" most would have no problem with that and would not qualify you as a "creationist."

      Sure it would. You're still claiming that God was involved in creating the universe. I don't see how you can claim that and NOT be a creationist. And a theist.

    12. Re:Yeah creationist ? by nomadic · · Score: 1

      Not in colloquial English. Words have specific meanings, and "creationist" refers to something specific that your definition doesn't accurately capture.

    13. Re:Yeah creationist ? by Jiro · · Score: 2

      You're implying a symmetry that isn't there.

      Creation versus evolution is one of those cases of pseudoscience where the unscientific side (the creationists, if I must spell it out) claims that they want to "compromise" between the two sides by claiming that each side can account for some things, or that each side has a certain amount of faith, or "we have no way to be sure about creation, but we have no way to be sure about evolution either". Almost any time someone says this it's a case where the science and the pseudoscience aren't equal at all, the person who is trying to "compromise" supports the pseudoscience, and they don't like that science is completely on the other side and they would rather that the two sides at least be equal.

      All creationists get lumped together because the "compromise" creationist is just as wrong as the blatant creationist. Either you accept evolution or you don't. "I'm not saying the creationists are right, but evolution can't explain this" followed by a list of misconceptions means you don't.

    14. Re:Yeah creationist ? by chrb · · Score: 1

      There are also plenty of creationists who will firmly state that individual species don't change and adapt: God created all animals to be the way that they are, forever. Inconveniently for them, we have observed speciation happening.

    15. Re:Yeah creationist ? by chrb · · Score: 2

      The problem here is that any argument (I hesitate to call it debate or even discussion) involving evolution vs creation is that it immediately degrades into an "us" vs "them" fight.

      Well, yes, humans have an instinct to be tribal, and humans may act in a tribal way around any social disagreement that is large enough to partition society.

      Modern science is built around the idea that you can never actually prove a theory, only disprove it and build a better theory. When you stop trying to disprove your models and accept them as truth, you stop being a scientist and step into the realm of faith.

      Here you seem to be adopting the standard anti-science argument - that since "science can't prove anything", then we should accept all hypothesis as equally valid. And that is the problem. All hypotheses are not equally valid. The entire fields of modern genetics and molecular biology is built around the theory of evolution. The evidence for evolution is so strong that it is literally inconceivable to people who are educated in these fields that people outside the field could dismiss it. And let's be clear: the dismissals of evolution are not scientific - they do not propose an alternative testable hypothesis, they just wave their hands in the air and claim that a mystical magical man did it. That is not science. That is why scientists and other educated people dismiss it. It is not scientists who have adopted their models as absolute truth, it those who have rejected science who claim that they have the absolute truth - the mystical magical man. Come to think of it, I've actually never, ever, met a creationist who would even admit that they might be wrong. And that says it all, really.

    16. Re:Yeah creationist ? by tomhudson · · Score: 1

      You're still claiming that God was involved in creating the universe. I don't see how you can claim that and NOT be a creationist. And a theist.

      Not in colloquial English. Words have specific meanings, and "creationist" refers to something specific that your definition doesn't accurately capture.

      No, creationists believe that any "big bang" was God's handiwork:

      Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

      So, if you believe that some imaginary invisible and mathematically impossible in this universe God created the Big Bang to set thing in motion, you're definitely a creationist.

      BTW, in colloquial english, that would be "religious nutbar", not "creationist"

      first definition of colloquial from dictionary.com: characteristic of or appropriate to ordinary or familiar conversation rather than formal speech or writing; informal.

    17. Re:Yeah creationist ? by Silvermistshadow · · Score: 1

      "I've actually never, ever, met a creationist who would even admit that they might be wrong. And that says it all, really." I admit that I might be wrong. Often enough I am, and it is the ability to learn from being wrong that separates me (and perhaps a few others) from zealots. Others would just make up psuedoscience to get around the fact that they're wrong. Evolution has enough proof for itself that I think it is true. I am willing to accept any answers science can give, as long as they are proven. In the end, I might even go with the Creed: "Nothing is true, everything is permitted."

      --
      Any comments made by the owner of this signature should be disregarded as irrelevant, uninformed, and idiotic.
    18. Re:Yeah creationist ? by Empiric · · Score: 2

      2. If evolution is flawed, it won't result in concessions towards the creationist stance

      I'm confused by this statement. How do you possibly know this, other than by assertion you're psychic as to the future determinations of science? You wouldn't consider a biological structure that -could not- come into existence apart from design, due to the probability of the aggregate mutations required while retaining survivability, to be a "concession"?

      I'm not asserting such will be found, I'm wondering by what means you are asserting it -will not- be found.

      Really, though, I've already fallen into your misleading equivocation of meaning "evolution" as "an exhaustive explanation of origins" rather than "a set of biological processes that are observed to occur". This is, the equivocation of "evolution occurs" to "-only- evolution occurs". Yes, I understand you absolutely need the second to be the case for your worldview preference to be viable, but it is, despite you personally needing it to be otherwise, of course, a wholly untestable, unfalsifiable, and unscientific premise.

      Well, actually, it might be falsifiable, but only in the sense that it already has been falsified. We cannot account for all biological features through evolutionary processes, as an issue of fact, rather than conjecture, ever since we ourselves started doing the designing. We know this falsification via the news, as one of hundreds of sources. How you know it won't also be further falsified by further examples from earlier timeframes, a priori, is beyond me, outside of your apparent psychic powers.

      --
      ~ Whence do you come, slayer of men, or where are you going, conqueror of space?
    19. Re:Yeah creationist ? by vadim_t · · Score: 2

      I'm confused by this statement. How do you possibly know this, other than by assertion you're psychic as to the future determinations of science? You wouldn't consider a biological structure that -could not- come int o existence apart from design, due to the probability of the aggregate mutations required while retaining survivability, to be a "concession"?

      Because as formulated, that's not scientific. It's not enough to just make a statement "X was designed", there must be some testable consequence of that, and you're not offering any.

      So for instance, Netwon disagreed with Aristotle and said that everything falls at the same speed in a vacuum, regardless of weight. You can go and test that.

      So if something had to be designed the result is... what exactly? What could somebody go and test in a lab?

    20. Re:Yeah creationist ? by Empiric · · Score: 1

      Understood. I'll give a little thought to the question of testing that biology was designed, rather than knowing it was designed as -fact-, as we currently know, and propose a test which would test for it, as if we had the absence of the -facts- the test would ostensibly resolve.

      As it stands, generally, "the fact we saw it designed" seems to define the testability criteria, for which it now passes admirably.

      As for historical cases, though of course you have the exact same limitations of testability (well, except you could offer no test, even theoretically, that would resolve that biology can be accounted for without design, as that result would be contrary to established fact) for your premise, I'm confident a test to differentiate what we now easily differentiate can be formulated, to resist even your most overwhelmingly biased attempts to exclude it.

      But, it's 3 AM here, and I'd rather sleep for now. Stay tuned.

      --
      ~ Whence do you come, slayer of men, or where are you going, conqueror of space?
    21. Re:Yeah creationist ? by vadim_t · · Score: 1

      Understood. I'll give a little thought to the question of testing that biology was designed, rather than knowing it was designed as -fact-, as we currently know, and propose a test which would test for it, as if we had the absence of the -facts- the test would ostensibly resolve.

      But, if biology is designed, then what?

      As it stands, generally, "the fact we saw it designed" seems to define the testability criteria, for which it now passes admirably.

      Don't see how. First there's a lot of evidence of descent. Parts get reused over and over, species can be organized as a tree, and change is seen gradually through it. A designer wouldn't need to do incremental improvement. They could suddenly go and plug an entirely new part somewhere, but there's no evidence of that. (if you have any please provide it).

      And as a design, ours is incredibly lousy. Why would a designer leave in various junk like a the remains of a tail (humans can be born with one), wisdom teeth, appendix (which does more harm than good these days), goose bumps (which would raise our fur if we still had any) and the ability some people have to move their ears (which makes perfect sense for monkeys with large ones)?

      Then there's plain bad construction. The spine is curved, leading to no end of medical issues (which isn't a big deal for animals that don't walk erect). The eye is made wrong, with obstructive blood vessels. Squids have better vision than we do. Our large head makes childbirth painful and problematic.

      Then, I don't understand how you'd see evidence of design, specifically. The way I see it, the best one can find is that "the current theory doesn't explain adequately how feature X appeared". But there more potential answers to that than design. For instance DNA transfer by virus, or a yet unknown mutation mechanism.

    22. Re:Yeah creationist ? by Empiric · · Score: 1

      But, if biology is designed, then what?

      Then we've discovered a very interesting fact of science. Though it wouldn't make a difference from a philosophical viewpoint (as "evolution designed up-front" or "specific design occurring in-process" are both viable positions), it would be very interesting scientifically, such as developing methods of discerning cases of each, likely expanding our abilities at design by reference to pre-existing designed structures, implications for various theories of life-formation or development (e.g. "panspermia" theories of external origination), etc. Since when would, or should, science be indifferent to such discoveries?

      Don't see how.

      I think you are confused by my statement. Design per se is a fact. That all biological features cannot be accounted for outside of design is fact. If you want to soften your position to "evolution as a causal explanation is sufficient up to a certain point in time", then do so. That the general (universal) statement is false is a matter of the reality of 20'th century genetic engineering.

      And as a design, ours is incredibly lousy.

      No. Apart from arguing this point with the reality that our design, if we were designed, is astonishingly brilliant to a degree we cannot remotely replicate (such as self-aware intelligence), you are wandering into teleological claims that you have no basis to make within a worldview of naturalism. From the perspective of naturalism, whatever survived, survived, and its survival is fully sufficient to meet the only criteria there is--survival.

      But there more potential answers to that than design.

      And there is design--the sole one you exclude, for personal reasons that are clear, and have nothing to do with scientific integrity.

      --
      ~ Whence do you come, slayer of men, or where are you going, conqueror of space?
    23. Re:Yeah creationist ? by vadim_t · · Score: 1

      Then we've discovered a very interesting fact of science. Though it wouldn't make a difference from a philosophical viewpoint (as "evolution designed up-front" or "specific design occurring in-process" are both viable positions), it would be very interesting scientifically, such as developing methods of discerning cases of each,

      That's all too vague, and not what I asked for. I asked for predictions, of the future. Like, what does that predict about epidemiology?

      For instance, Newton's laws allow us to predict the future position and speed of objects, and Darwin predicted that human ancestors originated in Africa, which matches the fossil record that was found later.

      likely expanding our abilities at design by reference to pre-existing designed structures

      Why would it? The process by which something evolved may be interesting, but it isn't particularly necessary to copy something. We could duplicate whole organisms by cloning without having a clue how to make one from scratch.

      I think you are confused by my statement. Design per se is a fact. That all biological features cannot be accounted for outside of design is fact. If you want to soften your position to "evolution as a causal explanation is sufficient up to a certain point in time", then do so. That the general (universal) statement is false is a matter of the reality of 20'th century genetic engineering.

      That's an assertion with absolutely no proof behind it. Please provide some. So far you haven't.

      No. Apart from arguing this point with the reality that our design, if we were designed, is astonishingly brilliant to a degree we cannot remotely replicate (such as self-aware intelligence)

      That we can replicate is given -- if we didn't, then we wouldn't be here to talk about it. There'd just be a lifeless rock floating in space. And no, it's not brilliant in any measure, it's messy and often inefficient. For instance, why would a designer create multiple incompatible blood types?

      I would find design a lot more believeable if humans were without misfeatures and vestigial organs. No things like wisdom teeth, transplants of organs between any two individuals of the same species without complications with the immune system, no autoimmune diseases, eyes done the right way and not inside out, no defects like myopia and baldness, and no random cancer. There's also a big problem in that things like that make perfect sense in the light of our ancestry. There's absolutely no reason for them to be there otherwise.

      And yes, we're getting ever closer to replicating it. Intelligence will come eventually.

      you are wandering into teleological claims that you have no basis to make within a worldview of naturalism. From the perspective of naturalism, whatever survived, survived, and its survival is fully sufficient to meet the only criteria there is--survival.

      Well, of course. But the environment favours particular kinds of survival. Here we have an example of that -- a poison resulted in the individuals that can best deal with it surviving better, and the ones that couldn't dying.

    24. Re:Yeah creationist ? by AshtangiMan · · Score: 1

      I know a bunch of creationists who are very highly educated, are critical thinkers, and who also accept evolution as true. There does not have to be an either or, and it is quite possible to believe that "God" created the universe as well as in the evolution of life on earth. I don't necessarily agree myself, but I do see that there is a rather large contingency of what I like to call the "regular" religious folks who are accepting of science as a way to find truth. They simply believe that there is some kind of higher power that has (or had) some influence in getting it all kicked off, and in some cases, binds us all together somehow. I think when you say creationist what you mean is really just the extreme, and not characteristic, subset.

    25. Re:Yeah creationist ? by Empiric · · Score: 1

      That's all too vague, and not what I asked for. I asked for predictions, of the future.

      Okay, to be clear on what you want, "testability" in a scientific sense isn't sufficient? Because in no way is "predictions, of the future" an essential criterion of a scientific test.

      For a "test", that will definitively fall out in a quantifiable sense when we are able to specify the specific set of mutations required for a particular biological feature, apply it across the population size that could have a pre-existing state of, or lack of, that feature, and specify the probability of this occurring as a question of what is ultimately chemistry, across the range of biological features that are proposably "Irreducibly Complex". Not by general conjecture as to how it might have formed, but by calculation of what happened and what could have happened with reasonable probability over the population and timeframe. That is, by hard, quantifiable brute-force calculation of the probability necessary changes on the level of chemistry.

      As for epidemiology, as we are differentiating natural viruses from designed ones, the implications of an instance being one or the other would be tremendous. It's the difference between concluding the common cold is going around versus that we are probably being attacked by a biological weapon.

      That's an assertion with absolutely no proof behind it. Please provide some. So far you haven't.

      Although, of course, asking for "proof" in a scientific context is almost never appropriate, I feel confident this actually suffices as that for our purposes:

      Fluorescent cats.

      There are many, many such equivalent examples, but this one seems particularly... obvious. This biological feature is only explainable as design--because it was factually designed. If you want to modify your stance against design to say "design is not a reasonable explanation for the range of biological features we observe, other than recently, in which case it's plain fact instead", then please do so. Right now you have a universal dismissal of design, which cannot be rendered as a universal statement of biology that remains in any sense "science". That design isn't a factor -previously-, the possibility that remains open, I suppose yields to your psychic powers that no equivalent case of design to what you now have a picture of, before the 20'th century, will ever be identified. Additionally, if you mean you are unconcerned about the scientific question of design, and only care about rejecting theism as your motivation (such that "Intelligent Design" means "design by God", even though it doesn't), please stipulate that too.

      That we can replicate is given -- if we didn't, then we wouldn't be here to talk about it.

      Replicate--intelligence, technologically or by other means. Which we can't, and we are not "close". That claim's been around since the 40's, and in fact, we're still "20 years away", until another 20 years go by, when we'll again be "just 20 years away". I did not mean "reproduction" in a having-offspring sense.

      I would find design a lot more believeable if humans were without misfeatures and vestigial organs. No things like wisdom teeth

      Okay, well since you're bringing it up again, with respect to this and the appendix, current scientific consensus is these absolutely did had a purpose, on the basis of our earlier diet, chewing and digestion of it, with the fact dentists were not always available to replace the teeth before migration of the wisdom teeth in the jaw would handle it. Obviously, a "good design" would include functionality over the range of time it needed to be functional, and not only right-this-moment, so I'm not sure where you are going with this. I also don't see how it is a requirement that there are no health problems--that people would be designed to be physically immortal if they were designed a

      --
      ~ Whence do you come, slayer of men, or where are you going, conqueror of space?
    26. Re:Yeah creationist ? by Agent0013 · · Score: 2

      Don't see how. First there's a lot of evidence of descent. Parts get reused over and over, species can be organized as a tree, and change is seen gradually through it. A designer wouldn't need to do incremental improvement. They could suddenly go and plug an entirely new part somewhere, but there's no evidence of that. (if you have any please provide it).

      And as a design, ours is incredibly lousy. Why would a designer leave in various junk like a the remains of a tail (humans can be born with one), wisdom teeth, appendix (which does more harm than good these days), goose bumps (which would raise our fur if we still had any) and the ability some people have to move their ears (which makes perfect sense for monkeys with large ones)?

      I was watching a crazy show a while ago called Ancient Aliens. One of the theories was that there is a group of genes that may have been inserted by aliens to use us as slaves for mining gold. Our ancestors were not intelligent enough to order around, and tended to be too violent. By messing with the ape genes and adding some of their own they created a slave race and could get them to mine gold for them as gods

      This site describes the discovery of these genes and why it seems unlikely to be slow genetic drift. I don't see why bacteria insertion could not be the cause though, unless there are no other copies of this group of 223 genenes in our biosphere.

      Personnaly I find this interesting but pretty far fetched. But I rank it above the creationist ideas. There are a lot of old religions that have people from the sky visiting or creating humans. It is not that hard to imagine ancient people would see a fire spewing ship as a dragon or the visitors as angels.

      --

      -- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.
    27. Re:Yeah creationist ? by vadim_t · · Score: 1

      For a "test", that will definitively fall out in a quantifiable sense when we are able to specify the specific set of mutations required for a particular biological feature, apply it across the population size that could have a pre-existing state of, or lack of, that feature, and specify the probability of this occurring as a question of what is ultimately chemistry, across the range of biological features that are proposably "Irreducibly Complex". Not by general conjecture as to how it might have formed, but by calculation of what happened and what could have happened with reasonable probability over the population and timeframe. That is, by hard, quantifiable brute-force calculation of the probability necessary changes on the level of chemistry.

      That still won't work. First, millions of years multiplied by millions of organisms makes even quite unlikely events a lot more likely to happen.

      Second, that an event is very unlikely is not a guarantee that it never has or that it never will. Winning the lottery is unlikely, yet people do, and getting struck by lighting is very unlikely as well, but there's a guy who got hit 7 times.

      Third, "irreducibly complex" is a big thing to claim, and I've yet to see any instance that hasn't been disproved. So please provide some.

      Although, of course, asking for "proof" in a scientific context is almost never appropriate, I feel confident this actually suffices as that for our purposes:

      Of course it is appropiate. If you claim you saw a polka dot patterned penguin, I'm going to ask for proof of it. And Darwin didn't just go and say "stuff evolves", he produced several books with evidence.

      Still waiting for your.

      Fluorescent cats.

      Heh. I'm talking about history here. Unless you're going to claim somebody travelled back in time to run genetic experiments, or that aliens dabbled in genetic experimentation for some reason. But the record we have just doesn't match that. Traits don't suddenly appear out of nowhere outside their place in the phylogenic tree.

      Yes, genetic engineering and such exist and are possible, problem is that there's no evidence of it in the historic record. Like I said, still waiting for your evidence.

      Okay, well since you're bringing it up again, with respect to this and the appendix, current scientific consensus is these absolutely did had a purpose, on the basis of our earlier diet, chewing and digestion of it, with the fact dentists were not always available to replace the teeth before migration of the wisdom teeth in the jaw would handle it.

      Our permanent teeth are that, permanent. Wisdom teeth only make sense with a larger jaw, which we don't have. If permanent teeth were supposed to get replaced, then that'd be all of them, and not just a couple in an oddly inconvenient location.

      Also, yes, diet was different, but the jaw was larger, and the brain was smaller. At that time wisdom teeth weren't a problem, because there was room for them.

      Frankly, your analysis seems to entirely ignore even an attempt to specify for consideration any secondary consequences to modifying what you insist is "lousy", and just assert it is, in direct contradiction to any determination (that is, other than your subjective value-judgment) you can make according to evolution.

      Ok, what would be the negative consequences if we could produce vitamin C?

    28. Re:Yeah creationist ? by Empiric · · Score: 1

      That still won't work. First, millions of years multiplied by millions of organisms makes even quite unlikely events a lot more likely to happen.

      "That won't work". Okay. In the absence of you demonstrating that it won't, I'll put that one down as another psychic claim. As I directly said, the population size and time available would be factored into the probability calculation--it would still resolve to a given probability.

      Third, "irreducibly complex" is a big thing to claim, and I've yet to see any instance that hasn't been disproved. So please provide some.

      You throw around "proved" and "disproved" remarkably lightly for a discussion about science. To set our context a little, can you name for me a single theory anywhere in any part of any science that has been -proven-? As for these specific cases, I've seen alternate scenarios provided. That is not equivalent to demonstrating that the alternate scenario occurred, or even could occur. Frankly, I don't think genetics is at the point yet of specifying specific causal chains of mutations for relatively-complex biological structures, and I doubt you could provide a single nontrivial case of a proposed IC structure that was -proven- to not be. In any case, this is not the point of my argument, as I stated at the outset--I am not claiming an unassailable IC example will be determined, I am asserting you have not validly argued that it will not be.

      Of course it is appropiate. If you claim you saw a polka dot patterned penguin, I'm going to ask for proof of it. And Darwin didn't just go and say "stuff evolves", he produced several books with evidence.

      Again, a single case anywhere in science, of something that is -proven-. Science is theory, and theories are contingent. That's what science is. As least this time you aren't phrasing your expectations in such a way as to guarantee the set of words couldn't even theoretically refer to anything in reality, regardless of the topic or the actual facts. There is no such thing as "some proof", or a fractional degree of proof, and so you'll never see such a thing or be given it. Any given thing to which "proof" could apply, would either be proven, or not proven, period. Scientific theories are such as case where "proven" is explicitly off the table if we want to actually be discussing science.

      Unless you're going to claim somebody travelled back in time to run genetic experiments, or that aliens dabbled in genetic experimentation for some reason. But the record we have just doesn't match that. Traits don't suddenly appear out of nowhere outside their place in the phylogenic tree.

      More accurately, I'm claiming, accurately, that you cannot exclude these possibilities other than by application of the supposed psychic powers you claim. In fact, on some level, traits do "appear out of nowhere", depending on the subjective differential we stipulate from other structures that supposedly pre-exist it. As for "the phylogenic tree", the reality is this is under ongoing revision, most recently with strong biological argument that we will need to add an entire new biological domain. To state that a particular "tree" is established biological fact as opposed to provisional relationships under ongoing correction is simply to misuse the concept.

      Like I said, still waiting for your evidence.

      Complexity is evidence. However, complexity is not "proof", which is precisely why you asked for a criterion applicable to no actual scientific theory, so that you can decide your stance with information so compelling you have no decision to make--such "proof" would compel your conclusion.

      Our permanent teeth are that, permanent.

      Well, I'll offer a quote on that, though, unfortunately the original cited document does not appear to be available on-line:

      "According to the British Journal of Oral an

      --
      ~ Whence do you come, slayer of men, or where are you going, conqueror of space?
    29. Re:Yeah creationist ? by hazah · · Score: 1

      I don't see why bacteria insertion could not be the cause though

      I think it's because these types of people (I know I'm generalizing here) have a very active but very poor imagination.

    30. Re:Yeah creationist ? by vadim_t · · Score: 1

      "That won't work". Okay. In the absence of you demonstrating that it won't, I'll put that one down as another psychic claim. As I directly said, the population size and time available would be factored into the probability calculation--it would still resolve to a given probability.

      Won't work for the simple reason that something being improbable doesn't really prove that it never happened.

      There are 3 billion base pairs in human DNA, I'm made of a very specific and extremely improbable combination of them, yet I'm still here.

      You throw around "proved" and "disproved" remarkably lightly for a discussion about science.

      Fair enough, I'm not being very careful. And given that no evidence seems to be forthcoming from you I'm not sure it's worth bothering.

      More accurately, I'm claiming, accurately, that you cannot exclude these possibilities other than by application of the supposed psychic powers you claim.

      My problem with your argument is twofold:

      1. Your assertions still are getting presented without evidence
      2. You're making the assumption that if not evolution, then design, as if there were only two possibilities.

      As for "the phylogenic tree", the reality is this is under ongoing revision, most recently with strong biological argument that we will need to add an entire new biological domain. To state that a particular "tree" is established biological fact as opposed to provisional relationships under ongoing correction is simply to misuse the concept.

      All classifications are of course human made and subject to revision. However, if there was design inserted somewhere in there it ought to look very out of place. Which means you shouldn't have a problem with pointing to some evidence of that happening.

      Complexity is evidence. However, complexity is not "proof", which is precisely why you asked for a criterion applicable to no actual scientific theory, so that you can decide your stance with information so compelling you have no decision to make--such "proof" would compel your conclusion.

      You're still making assertions. I do not agree that complexity is evidence. Complexity as we understand it arises in nature all on its own without much trouble. Simple things can interact in ways we perceive as complex.

      But anyway, complexity according to what standard? On what basis does our ability to understand something affect reality? The way I see it, reality doesn't care if I think it's complex or not.

      "According to the British Journal of Oral and Maxillofacial surgery, in a article titled, Management of Asymptomatic Impacted Wisdom Teeth, Vol. 34 October 1996, the author notes that in Neolithic man the average, highly abrasive diet caused attrition of the teeth resulting in a reduction in the size of the molars from front to back. This decrease in size from the abrasive nature of the food ingested allowed for the forward migration of the teeth and adequate space for the eruption of the wisdom teeth. With the arrival of processed foods and a reduction in the amount of chewing necessary to reduce the food for swallowing, less wear occurs. This coupled with a decrease in the loss of teeth as a result of a decrease in cavities, requires modern generations to address impacted and partially impacted wisdom teeth."

      That's still unconvincing, given that human ancestors have large enough jaws to have room for the wisdom teeth without problems, and regardless of diet.

      Also, it doesn't add up. There's no evidence to my knowledge of extra teeth suddenly appearing in the neolithic. There is however evidence that our jaw size shrunk, which provides an explanation that makes a lot more sense: jaw shrunk, teeth had a hard time fitting but for a while due to the diet it wasn't too bad, and now that diet changed the problem is no longer so effectively hidden.

      So, either our number of teeth is from before the jaw shrinkage, in which case wisdom teeth are an evolutionary problem, or you have to find some evidence for extra teeth appearing at around neolithic time.

    31. Re:Yeah creationist ? by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1
      You didn't read that did you?

      There is nothing to indicate that an omnipotent deity could not have created a universe where evolution would not occur.

      Where is it the bible that denies evolution anyhow? I'm not a religious person, but one thing is true form it - that there will be people trying to lead others astray, and they will be false prophets. This is a very human desire to read things into the documents that arent there for purposes of controlling others.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    32. Re:Yeah creationist ? by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1
      Doh! Typo alert.

      My second sentence had a typo. Should have read:

      There is nothing to indicate that an omnipotent deity could not have created a universe where evolution would occur.

      If God could not create evolution, then she isn't omnipotent. Given that the Christian God is omnipotent, and the lack of direct denial of Evolution in the documents, then by definition, those who would reject the apparent reality of evolutional processes are by definition playing with eternal damnation by denying their God's omnipotence.

      P

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    33. Re:Yeah creationist ? by Empiric · · Score: 1

      Okay, in brief.

      Won't work for the simple reason that something being improbable doesn't really prove that it never happened.

      "Proof" has nothing to do with what "evidence" is, or what "science" is. I don't know to put your inappropriate expectations for the domain under discussion, and escalation of my original statement to what it was not, any more clearly.

      1. Your assertions still are getting presented without evidence
      2. You're making the assumption that if not evolution, then design, as if there were only two possibilities.


      1. I have given evidence (that is, visual, conclusive evidence) of everything I have asserted--that all biological features existing cannot be accounted for without reference to design. This is a fact of present-day, and at base we are arguing about -when- this fact applies to, not -if-. That is the scope of my expressed position.

      2. No, absolutely not. You are making the assumption that features cannot have design as a causal factor. That was your statement at the beginning, what I responded to, and what my position has been since. I am well aware there could be additional causal factors -beyond- that.

      I do not agree that complexity is evidence.

      Fine. Nonetheless, it is evidence. It is not -conclusive- evidence, as I have stated. If it were not evidence at all, there would not be a few million debates on-line and throughout history debating the strength of that evidence. Again, you are equivocating disingenously.

      So, either our number of teeth is from before the jaw shrinkage, in which case wisdom teeth are an evolutionary problem, or you have to find some evidence for extra teeth appearing at around neolithic time.

      I am quoting an authority in the field. If he ultimately is incorrect, it makes no difference. The wisdom teeth still have partial utility in the case of tooth loss, giving a rationale for its presence, and even if it were not the case, it remains undemonstrated that causing their elimination by design would not create more issues than it solved, and even if -that- were demonstrated, we are using conjectural, rather than objective, standards for judgment--again, from a naturalist evolutionary perspective, what survived, survived, and it's survival is the only criteria by which we can "measure" it, which it by definition passed.

      --
      ~ Whence do you come, slayer of men, or where are you going, conqueror of space?
    34. Re:Yeah creationist ? by vadim_t · · Score: 1

      "Proof" has nothing to do with what "evidence" is, or what "science" is. I don't know to put your inappropriate expectations for the domain under discussion, and escalation of my original statement to what it was not, any more clearly.

      That's not what I'm saying. I mean that you can't draw the conclusion "it must have been designed" from the observation "There's only a 0.001% chance it could have happened over the known timeline". As far as we can tell, the universe doesn't seem to be full of life, so it may well be that it's something that very rarely happens.

      1. I have given evidence (that is, visual, conclusive evidence) of everything I have asserted--that all biological features existing cannot be accounted for without reference to design. This is a fact of present-day, and at base we are arguing about -when- this fact applies to, not -if-. That is the scope of my expressed position.

      Er, no, you haven't. You've not even described a single thing you think is irreductibly complex. You just keep claiming that there is, but never show.

      2. No, absolutely not. You are making the assumption that features cannot have design as a causal factor. That was your statement at the beginning, what I responded to, and what my position has been since. I am well aware there could be additional causal factors -beyond- that.

      No, I'm not. However, it's a farfetched enough claim that I think it needs a lot more justification, and you're not providing any.

      Fine. Nonetheless, it is evidence. It is not -conclusive- evidence, as I have stated. If it were not evidence at all, there would not be a few million debates on-line and throughout history debating the strength of that evidence. Again, you are equivocating disingenously.

      The largest problem I have is that "complexity" isn't something that exists in reality. An atom is an atom, 1 Kg is 1 Kg, and a second is a second in the US, in China and everywhere else. They either correspond to physical things that can be measured, without depending on the judgement of the observer.

      However, "complexity" is a purely human valuation. A watchmaker might comment that a design is simple an elegant, a layman would see a complicated mess of parts. People comment that Apple devices are simple when looking at the external design and user interface, ignoring the incredible internal complexity. Conway's Game of Life is simple if you look at the list of rules, and complex if you look at how they interact.

      Which is why I think that a judgement based on complexity is inherently invalid, because I do not even know what you mean when you say something is complex. Come up with with a measure of complexity that's based on something universally calculable and which does not depend on anybody's judgement, and try again.

      I am quoting an authority in the field. If he ultimately is incorrect, it makes no difference. The wisdom teeth still have partial utility in the case of tooth loss, giving a rationale for its presence, and even if it were not the case, it remains undemonstrated that causing their elimination by design would not create more issues than it solved, and even if -that- were demonstrated, we are using conjectural, rather than objective, standards for judgment--again, from a naturalist evolutionary perspective, what survived, survived, and it's survival is the only criteria by which we can "measure" it, which it by definition passed.

      He may well be entirely correct, but like I said nothing your authority says seems to indicate design. There is a plausible evolutionary explanation for the same situation.

      Given that, you should explain why the design based explanation fits the events better, but it doesn't. Design ought to be detectable in the fossil record.

    35. Re:Yeah creationist ? by Empiric · · Score: 1

      I mean that you can't draw the conclusion "it must have been designed" from the observation "There's only a 0.001% chance it could have happened over the known timeline". As far as we can tell, the universe doesn't seem to be full of life, so it may well be that it's something that very rarely happens.

      I'm not drawing the conclusion it must be designed. I am drawing the conclusion it is -plausible- it is designed. I know precisely the scope of claims I am making, and am making them to precisely that degree. I will be continuing to decline amplification of "evidence" to "proof" and "is plausible that" to "must be". I know the arguments after the amplification is implicitly accepted, for those who fail to notice, or don't know exactly what their position is. I'm not among them. My objection, from the beginning, was and stems from your statement that you apparently know that design will not be a conclusion in the unknown future of science. I continue to maintain that you cannot, and am not claiming that I can "prove God did it". We have, though, as knowns, 1 "successful" production of intelligent life out of 1 verifiable universe "attempts"--if we allow for teleology--and this in itself to me speaks to plausibility, though not "proof".

      Er, no, you haven't. You've not even described a single thing you think is irreductibly complex. You just keep claiming that there is, but never show.

      I'm not sure if I'm being unclear, or if my point is just so rock-simple on its basic level that you can't believe my point was actually what it was--but it is. I showed you a picture of fluorescent cats that were demonstrably designed, by virtue of being designed by genetic engineers. I am quite aware of the effect an established paradigm has over habitual interpretation of information, and I am attempting to break that paradigm for the purposes of discussion by pointing out a fact which, though it may be banal, is conveniently unarguably true. We cannot, as a matter of fact and science, say "We can account for all biological features without reference to design". This can no longer be -accurately- proposed as a universal fact about biology. It's immediately falsified by present-day genetic engineering. Were I discussing it with a biology professor, say, in a class, I'd actually make him do the circumlocution every time he made a claim from the perspective of naturalism, such as "evolution and ancillary processes can account for all biological features" to say, if nothing else, "evolution and ancillary processes can account for all biological features up until approximately 1970 A.D." Why? Because a) it's the rendering of the statement that actually is scientifically viable, and b) it forces consideration of the issue outside of a default paradigm. Further, this impacts the question of testability--on the face of it, either we are suddenly unable to test for basic facts (testing to detect design, performed by testing the organism itself, rather than happening to know it was designed from publications/media about the engineers), or testability in this case has wider aspects than a simple "not testable, not scientific" (lest we be forced to say that fluorescent cats were designed is a fact, but this is not a "scientific fact").

      The largest problem I have is that "complexity" isn't something that exists in reality.

      I disagree with this notion, that it is merely a question of perception, or subjective evaluation, but I'm not really prepared at this point to offer an exhaustive counterargument. I believe such is quantifiable, by, for example, specifying the minimum Finite State Machine that could fully "emulate" the entity in question, and determining the number of State-Event transitions such a model requires. There are probably objections to this that could be made, though, so I'll leave it at that counterproposal without further analysis.

      Design ought to be detectable in the fossil record.

      Seems plausible, but I still think we lack t

      --
      ~ Whence do you come, slayer of men, or where are you going, conqueror of space?
    36. Re:Yeah creationist ? by Anguirel · · Score: 1

      Following this, you two seem to be talking around each other.

      Er, no, you haven't. You've not even described a single thing you think is irreductibly complex. You just keep claiming that there is, but never show.

      I thought the fluorescent cats were sufficient proof that, of biological organisms currently present, some were designed rather than evolved. Historically, that happened. Some guy said "Hey, you know what would be awesome? Glowing cats." And then he made them. It isn't that this is irreducibly complex, it's that you can't point at them and factually state "these evolved." They have features that cannot factually be accounted for without reference to design, because that's how they got there. Those cats were designed. Those traits appeared out of nowhere outside of their phylogenic tree. Right there. You can see it. It's historical, it happened before the present moment.

      You acknowledged it right then, as well. That was all he was saying. "Genetic Engineering happens, so you can't accurately state that evolution accounts for all biological features on current organisms". He was pointing out that you need to put a time-stamp on that -- e.g. "Before genetic engineering in the 20th century, no organism had any features that could not be accounted for by evolution." The secondary claim was "You should acknowledge that since it can be shown here and now, it might be possible to find a similar unexpected and inexplicable jump in biology in history. We have not yet found such, but it would be intellectually dishonest to discount the possibility to 0."

      --
      ~Anguirel (lit. Living Star-Iron)
      QA: The art of telling someone that their baby is ugly without getting punched.
    37. Re:Yeah creationist ? by vadim_t · · Score: 1

      My objection, from the beginning, was and stems from your statement that you apparently know that design will not be a conclusion in the unknown future of science. I continue to maintain that you cannot, and am not claiming that I can "prove God did it".

      My objection is that it still needs more evidence to make it even vaguely plausible.

      There are other options you don't seem to be discussing for some reason. Like "It just happened despite the improbability", "there's a yet unknown mechanism that made it happen", "it got copied as-is from another source", and so on.

      Yet you oddly concentrate specifically on design, despite design requiring a designer we have not the slightest shred of evidence of, despite having looked for other civilizations with SETI, and constantly looking at space with telescopes, for instance.

      I'm not sure if I'm being unclear, or if my point is just so rock-simple on its basic level that you can't believe my point was actually what it was--but it is. I showed you a picture of fluorescent cats that were demonstrably designed, by virtue of being designed by genetic engineers.

      Don't be silly. The argument is and always has been about the historic "origin of species", which covers a huge timeline that we are a tiny part of.

      Sure, let's ignore say, the last 1000 years, it doesn't make a difference for the sake of argument.

      I disagree with this notion, that it is merely a question of perception, or subjective evaluation, but I'm not really prepared at this point to offer an exhaustive counterargument. I believe such is quantifiable, by, for example, specifying the minimum Finite State Machine that could fully "emulate" the entity in question, and determining the number of State-Event transitions such a model requires. There are probably objections to this that could be made, though, so I'll leave it at that counterproposal without further analysis.

      Don't you think you should figure that out first? How can you argue about complexity before even figuring out what it is?

      And for that matter, I don't think the FSM is going to solve your problem. Say, how do you reduce fractal to a FSM? Do you have some algorihtm that can take any piece of data and somehow figure out the most efficient algorithm possible to generate it? Or do you judge by your best attempt to make a FSM to generate the image without using the formula for the Mandelbrot set, despite that the algorithm and initial data needed to make it is tiny in comparison?

      What about other things, like say, pi? Is it complex because it never ends? Is then 1/3 complex? Or is it simple because it's the result of a division? Does the algorithm to calculate arbitrary digits of it change its complexity?

      Finally, how are you going to apply this to genetics?

      Seems plausible, but I still think we lack the development of genetics at this point to make a quantifiable analysis of which transitions are the best candidates for strong argument for specific design.

      Then on what basis do you suggest ID?

      Again, I am not fundamentally opposed to the notion of design occurring only at a "higher-order" of design of the process of evolution to ultimately produce specific results, or design of the properties of physics from which evolution emerges--but this is more of a philosophical stance than a specific scientific question, and it is the specific science level that I am concerned about being damaged by dismissing some viable possibilities a-priori.

      I dismiss it on the basis that you've yet to provide a good reason to even propose ID as a possibility. Nothing in the record that conflicts with evolution, no coherent definition of what is this complexity you keep talking about, and now you even admit that you can't figure out what kind of characteristic would be a strong candidate for ID.

      You're talking out of your ass, basically.

    38. Re:Yeah creationist ? by Empiric · · Score: 1

      The argument is and always has been about the historic "origin of species", which covers a huge timeline that we are a tiny part of.

      In summary, as I see no real reason to continue this as you are now simply trotting out stock arguments to what is outside the scope of my objections...

      No. "The argument" may be this to you, but it is not based on everything I have said from the beginning. My objection is solely centered around the potential damage to science of your psychic a-priori exclusion of a particular causal explanation.

      Don't you think you should figure that out first?

      No. Absolutely not. I'm interested in developing understanding, not complying with your irrelevant expectations. That's how science, as opposed to the various things you erroneously think science is, advances. With proposals that, at the point of proposal, lack even any tests, much less conclusive "proof". Conceptualization of a hypothesis -always- precedes a test, every single time, and often by decades, such as some attributes of Relativity, which were only testable 50 years after the theory was presened.

      In short, I reject your erroneous notions of "science" in toto, and really have nothing more to say on it.

      --
      ~ Whence do you come, slayer of men, or where are you going, conqueror of space?
    39. Re:Yeah creationist ? by vadim_t · · Score: 1

      No. Absolutely not. I'm interested in developing understanding, not complying with your irrelevant expectations. That's how science, as opposed to the various things you erroneously think science is, advances. With proposals that, at the point of proposal, lack even any tests, much less conclusive "proof". Conceptualization of a hypothesis -always- precedes a test, every single time, and often by decades, such as some attributes of Relativity, which were only testable 50 years after the theory was presened.

      Oh yes, absolutely yes.

      Look, if we were arguing about whether travelling from New York to Paris in 4 hours is "too fast" (substituting a "too fast" for the "too complex" argument), we'd have to agree on a whole bunch of stuff beforehand. Like, what exactly does it mean to travel from New York to Paris, what does "4 hours" mean, what is the speed of the known transport, and so on. Only with that you can begin to argue that me going from New York to Paris in 4 hours might be "too fast". We can't possibly have a meaningful argument if you only insist that it's too fast, but refuse to explain why or by what metric is it considered to be too fast.

      So same here. Until you explain what complexity is, any discussion is meaningless, as without the explanation your claim has an enormous unexplained void in it which makes it effectively meaningless, and allows you to fill it with whatever you deem convenient.

      That won't do. This cannot proceed until you explain precisely what complexity is, an exact observer-independent way of measuring it, and provide a good explanation of at what level complexity becomes excessive and why (perhaps by measuring the complexity of a lot of things and proving that it doesn't follow a normal distribution would be a start)

    40. Re:Yeah creationist ? by Empiric · · Score: 1

      Only with that you can begin to argue that me going from New York to Paris in 4 hours might be "too fast".

      That's okay--I'm content to not begin, and let entropy conclude your side of the argument.

      We can't possibly have a meaningful argument if you only insist that it's too fast

      And this is precisely what I'm not doing. You are arguing it is not too fast (for the available "modes of travel")--presciently with respect to all future cases. Intuitively, one might say that the immune system is "too complex" (yes, I suggest you do give some credence to the validity of complexity as "real", because you yourself likely know this is a more appropriate example than, say, explaining having fingernails--I suspect it would be a challenge for you to discuss this for more than a few paragraphs without contradicting yourself as to recognizing that complexity "exists"). In answer to that, one might counterargue that it isn't too complex given incremental changes--again plausible. We won't get any farther than this until genetics can provide what we actually require to resolve it--an enumeration of all the specific mutations required to produce the biological feature. Given that, we can approach the frequency of mutations anywhere in DNA as a matter of chemistry, and from there determine the expected frequency of all the required mutations for the result. Adding to this at least provisional estimates of population size and years at hand, we should be able to provide a fairly-specific probability--eventually. So, though we may at this point heuristically conclude different things, say, "too complex" on one side versus "not too complex" on the other, those are just general opinions until we have the means to quantify it. What such a quantification would yield, I am not prepared to say, and I suspect no matter what the probability figure is, those predisposed against design will argue it isn't overly improbable, by such means as the Anthropic Principle. Nonetheless, such a calculation would be useful both with respect to the question of design and for science in general, and I see no legitimate reason to argue it should not be pursued based on one's own personal worldview bias.

      As for measurement of the complexity, though I am again not proposing to offer a definitive methodology for this domain (other than the Finite State Machine suggestion), I find it rather unreasonable to conclude there is -no- functional methodology to address "complexity" as something that exists. It simply isn't credible to say that, in fact, no engineering projects actually proceed, despite the evidence of the economy, because when the executives and investors ask "How complex will this be to do", the answer is inescapably "There's no such thing as complexity, so I can offer you no scope or cost projections to create this, invest accordingly". This notion flies in the face of basic reality.

      --
      ~ Whence do you come, slayer of men, or where are you going, conqueror of space?
    41. Re:Yeah creationist ? by vadim_t · · Score: 1

      And this is precisely what I'm not doing.

      And you say that while still refusing to explain what you mean by it.

      You are arguing it is not too fast (for the available "modes of travel")--presciently with respect to all future cases. Intuitively, one might say that the immune system is "too complex"

      On what grounds? Another assertion with nothing behind it. I don't care about your "intuitively". Where's the data?

      (yes, I suggest you do give some credence to the validity of complexity as "real", because you yourself likely know this is a more appropriate example than, say, explaining having fingernails--I suspect it would be a challenge for you to discuss this for more than a few paragraphs without contradicting yourself as to recognizing that complexity "exists")

      Again, on what grounds to you say that? I still have no clue what you mean by "complex".

      In answer to that, one might counterargue that it isn't too complex given incremental changes--again plausible. We won't get any farther than this until genetics can provide what we actually require to resolve it--an enumeration of all the specific mutations required to produce the biological feature. Given that, we can approach the frequency of mutations anywhere in DNA as a matter of chemistry, and from there determine the expected frequency of all the required mutations for the result. Adding to this at least provisional estimates of population size and years at hand, we should be able to provide a fairly-specific probability--eventually.

      So why aren't you trying to do it? Where's your attempt to do anything of the sort?

      For somebody who likes to pontificate on science, you sure talk a lot with nothing backing it up. I want to see data. Tables of measurements, statistics, that kind of thing.

      Then again it's obvious you don't have anything, because I'm sure you could point to something if you had it.

      So, though we may at this point heuristically conclude different things, say, "too complex" on one side versus "not too complex" on the other, those are just general opinions until we have the means to quantify it.

      Precisely. You have no argument until you come up with some data. Once you do, come back and try again.

      What such a quantification would yield, I am not prepared to say, and I suspect no matter what the probability figure is, those predisposed against design will argue it isn't overly improbable, by such means as the Anthropic Principle. Nonetheless, such a calculation would be useful both with respect to the question of design and for science in general, and I see no legitimate reason to argue it should not be pursued based on one's own personal worldview bias.

      Well, excellent! You're doing the claim here though, so it's up to you to do the work. I'll be waiting.

      As for measurement of the complexity, though I am again not proposing to offer a definitive methodology for this domain (other than the Finite State Machine suggestion),

      Please address some of my questions on that respect

      I find it rather unreasonable to conclude there is -no- functional methodology to address "complexity" as something that exists.

      Until you provide something more than empty talk, I'll continue assuming there isn't.

      It simply isn't credible to say that, in fact, no engineering projects actually proceed, despite the evidence of the economy, because when the executives and investors ask "How complex will this be to do", the answer is inescapably "There's no such thing as complexity, so I can offer you no scope or cost projections to create this, invest accordingly". This notion flies in the face of basic reality.

      You're mixing meanings here. One thing is thi

    42. Re:Yeah creationist ? by Empiric · · Score: 1

      Intuitively, one might say that the immune system is "too complex"

      No reason anywhere to care about what you care about, but this is an example of how you can't seem to help equivocating someone's statements to what they are not.

      One might indeed say this, and you can verify this by noting someone could make that statement. If you're unable to discern that I'm using a very qualified rendering of this for a wider context, I'm not sure how you communicate, but there it is. If you're going to (rather humorously) excerpt sections and demand I literally do that, I'll at minimum note what I actually said--literally.

      Please address some of my questions on that respect

      Ah, no? Now what?

      I have no need to present to you on-demand anything. I have stated what my view is, with what I felt is appropriate qualification. Go ahead and address the proposal before you, if you like. The minimum FSM for full emulation of a given entity, and the count of states needed.

      What I'm asking for, is what is the universal, observer-independent, never changing measure of complexity.

      This does not exist with reference to anything in reality whatsoever. An easy way to avoid addressing it by stipulating impossible criteria, but it's really nothing more than silly evasion.

      Precisely. You have no argument until you come up with some data. Once you do, come back and try again.

      No, of course not, clearly. As clearly as you know it with absolute clarity in your own mind as you proceed to go ahead and simply lie anyway. That I insist we remain open to future data, requires no data to assert. The argument is self-contained and has no such contingencies. Again, my argument is what it is, not what you'd prefer to make up that it is.

      The complexity of engineering you're talking about is unrelated and extremely relative.

      Should have expected this sort of evasion. No, it's not. You are saying "complexity" doesn't exist. "Exist" includes all contexts, including engineering.

      Stonehenge is impressive by ancient standards.

      How is pointing this out relevant to the discussion of "complexity"? Wait... are you saying it's not complex? Speaking unrelated verbal constructions having nothing to do with the point at hand? Yes, you can go ahead and say you yourself consider this "less complex", and that is precisely why you chose it as an example, and that is why you yourself think such a statement can be validly asserted. It's transparent anyway.

      --
      ~ Whence do you come, slayer of men, or where are you going, conqueror of space?
    43. Re:Yeah creationist ? by vadim_t · · Score: 1

      No reason anywhere to care about what you care about, but this is an example of how you can't seem to help equivocating someone's statements to what they are not.

      One might indeed say this, and you can verify this by noting someone could make that statement. If you're unable to discern that I'm using a very qualified rendering of this for a wider context, I'm not sure how you communicate, but there it is. If you're going to (rather humorously) excerpt sections and demand I literally do that, I'll at minimum note what I actually said--literally.

      I have no clue what you're talking about here, but thought I'd point out you seem to be replying to yourself here.

      Ah, no? Now what?

      I'm still unconvinced, and you're not making any progress there.

      I have no need to present to you on-demand anything. I have stated what my view is, with what I felt is appropriate qualification. Go ahead and address the proposal before you, if you like. The minimum FSM for full emulation of a given entity, and the count of states needed.

      It's not that you don't "need" to present anything, it's that you don't have anything that could be presented.

      Like I said, the minimum FSM is an impossible problem because you can't deduce the algorithm from the data that it generated, therefore it doesn't work for the purpose you're saying. Unless you've managed to revolutionize the field of mathematics, in which case please go collect your Nobel prize.

      This does not exist with reference to anything in reality whatsoever. An easy way to avoid addressing it by stipulating impossible criteria, but it's really nothing more than silly evasion.

      But it's precisely what your position requires. Therefore, either you figure it out, or rephrase your position in some terms that don't involve complexity.

      That I insist we remain open to future data, requires no data to assert. The argument is self-contained and has no such contingencies. Again, my argument is what it is, not what you'd prefer to make up that it is.

      Except that you keep saying something about complexity, and are pushing one specific point, (and not "we should keep an open mind in general"), which implies you did measure something and on that basis decided that your argument has merit. So please go and present whatever you measured.

      Should have expected this sort of evasion. No, it's not. You are saying "complexity" doesn't exist. "Exist" includes all contexts, including engineering.

      Not in reality, no. Just like species don't exist either, they're just arbitrary labels we assign to things to make things easier for ourselves. In nature, there are no platonic forms. There's a continuum we try to subdivide into kingdoms and species, but which never fit reality 100%, because reality doesn't actually work like that.

      We start from a neat classification of "animal" and "vegetal", and then it turns out that at some points it's unclear which is which, and new strange things like viruses and prions force us to rearrange our classification.

      How is pointing this out relevant to the discussion of "complexity"? Wait... are you saying it's not complex? Speaking unrelated verbal constructions having nothing to do with the point at hand? Yes, you can go ahead and say you yourself consider this "less complex", and that is precisely why you chose it as an example, and that is why you yourself think such a statement can be validly asserted. It's transparent anyway.

      I'm saying that your position requires an absolute measure of complexity, and we don't have one. Stonehenge went from complex to simple, to soon trivial. Therefore engineering difficulty is not a good example of complexity for your purpose.

  3. Why would this be a surprise? by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 5, Informative

    Ananda Chakrabarty developed a microorganism that actual feeds on PCBs by simple selection in his lab some 40 years ago.

    We have weeds that have evolved resistance to glyphosate in the wild. That is a much more impressive adaptation because glyphosate interferes with the production of key amino acids by plants.

    Life on earth has been adapting and evolving to its environment for billions of years. Why would anyone think it would stop?

    1. Re:Why would this be a surprise? by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Single-celled organisms are generally a lot more flexible when it comes to environmental stress than multi-cellular organisms are, and among the latter, plants are generally more flexible than animals. Observing this kind of adaptation in animals is pretty impressive. Nobody expects life to stop adapting to the environment, but there are limits; e.g., humans aren't going to evolve resistance to being shot in the head, no matter how many times it happens.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    2. Re:Why would this be a surprise? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe that's because not enough of them live past it to reproduce?

    3. Re:Why would this be a surprise? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      >Why would anyone think it would stop?

      Because the American education system teaches that evolution is a fabrication of liberal anti-God scientists.

    4. Re:Why would this be a surprise? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nobody expects life to stop adapting to the environment, but there are limits; e.g., humans aren't going to evolve resistance to being shot in the head, no matter how many times it happens.

      Seems you do not understand how evolution works.

    5. Re:Why would this be a surprise? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not a surprise. It's an elegant example of natural selection at work. And a bazinga to the religulous nuts who still believe in creationism.

    6. Re:Why would this be a surprise? by zAPPzAPP · · Score: 2

      People who think with their genitalias would have a strong advantage in that selection process.

    7. Re:Why would this be a surprise? by freedumb2000 · · Score: 1

      Indeed, what needs to be done is shoot a few hundred thousand people in the head and have those that survive breed.

    8. Re:Why would this be a surprise? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nobody expects life to stop adapting to the environment, but there are limits; e.g., humans aren't going to evolve resistance to being shot in the head, no matter how many times it happens.

      You're wrong. Yesterday my legs totally evolved into rockets. I'm now a new subhuman species, Homo Rocketus. You're probably just jealous because you can't soar through the skies majestically like me.

    9. Re:Why would this be a surprise? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Already have - it's not a truly limiting requirement so the dozen or so instances of it in Human history have been blended in with the rest - if those dozen or so were all that survived then it might fit the parameters for a requirement of evolution. Hell, you could view the current surplus of Humans (7 billion) to be a natural preparation for the next plague (and for that matter, and incubator for it).

    10. Re:Why would this be a surprise? by AK+Marc · · Score: 2

      You left out "secular" The American education system describes "secular" as God-hating amoral atheists who hate all people who beleive in God, and strangely self-identifies as "secular" as well (though the non-secular groups, especially in the South, do get into local board power level and deliberately sabotage the federal and state mandates for minimum education, claiming that teaching logic and other things that might confuse students about God is anti-religion, and thus unconstitutional). And they deserve equal time in the media to talk about it. Fair and Balanced.

    11. Re:Why would this be a surprise? by moderatorrater · · Score: 4, Funny

      When you put it like that, my life's work sounds like mere homocide.

    12. Re:Why would this be a surprise? by girlintraining · · Score: 1

      Life on earth has been adapting and evolving to its environment for billions of years. Why would anyone think it would stop?

      Most often, because evolution also says we are one of its byproduct, and while we can look at ourselves and say "Hell yeah! Evolution!", the moment we go outside we're like "what the sh** f*** happened to everybody else?"

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    13. Re:Why would this be a surprise? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tell that to Gabrielle Giffords.

    14. Re:Why would this be a surprise? by meerling · · Score: 1

      If I remember the statistics correctly, only about 1 in 3 shots to the head result in penetration of the skull.
      ( Yeah, Hollywood got it wrong, but what do you expect from a group that shows nearly every car crash catching on fire and exploding, as well as guns firing about 10-20 times their full load without ever reloading or having a scene cut where you can imagine they reloaded...)
      Along with that, few of the people shot are hit in the head in the first place, most shooters are lucky to hit the main body mass at 20', so head shots are more for movies and video games than reality.

      I think the main problem is that there aren't enough people getting shot in the head to make an impact on the overall species survival needs. So with appx 7 billion people (that's 7,000,000,000) on the planet, and probably only a few hundred shot in the head in any given year, that's a really small percentage, even if you just look at particular hot spots.

    15. Re:Why would this be a surprise? by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      People who think with their genitalias would have a strong advantage in that selection process.

      Look around, I think the present dickhead percentage in my neighborhood proves your point. They certainly don't multiply because everybody loves having them around.

    16. Re:Why would this be a surprise? by tp1024 · · Score: 1

      There is also the case of the Freshwater Sardinella that evolved from seawater sardines that were caught in Lake Taal, after the Mount Taal volcano erupted in the 18th century and closed the direct connection with the sea. Rainwater pushed out the saltwater, but some Sardines survived the transition.

      Evolution doesn't take millions of years. (Although, admittedly, the longer the time span the more impressive the results - including those that are impressively resistant to change.)

    17. Re:Why would this be a surprise? by blind+monkey+3 · · Score: 1

      You watch your mouth, Shelly. Everyone's entitled to their opinion.

      --
      BM3
    18. Re:Why would this be a surprise? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It isn't news because they think this is remarkable this is news because it is an interesting discovery in and of itself. Jesus /. turds are out today.

    19. Re:Why would this be a surprise? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Because those fish didn't evolve. They are the result of the evolution, not the thing which is evolving. What are evolving is species.

      If some beings would born bullet-proof, of course it my be useful to survive, knowing all the bullet shot out there.

      You mix up the processe and the result. It's not about organisms evolving to feat repetitive environement constraint so they survive, it's about organsims survaving because they happens to feat environement constraints which results what's called evolution.

    20. Re:Why would this be a surprise? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What are all those circuit boards doing in the water anyway?

    21. Re:Why would this be a surprise? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It isn't more amazing because glyphosate resistance is inducible by one amino acid substitution.

    22. Re:Why would this be a surprise? by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      I think the main problem is that there aren't enough people getting shot in the head

      - tell me about it.

    23. Re:Why would this be a surprise? by tomhudson · · Score: 1

      What are all those circuit boards doing in the water anyway?

      They're evolving into your next generation water-proof iPhone, you ignorant clod!

      Why do you think the fish survived? The PCBs don't affect them because they too have evolved their own version of the Jobsian Reality Distortion Field!

    24. Re:Why would this be a surprise? by argStyopa · · Score: 1

      Humans have evolved a resistance to being shot in the head, it's just not a simple mechanical/physiological resistance.

      It's called society.

      And yes, I understand that's not what you meant - but my point is more to illustrate that coping strategies, patterns of behavior, and one might even suggest meta organizations like societies are just as clearly evolved (I very deliberately use that word) to reduce the likelihood of random violence, or at least an individual's susceptibility thereto.

      I know that Social Contract theory is poo-poohed by 'serious philosophers' but to me it's inarguable that societies have evolved strategies to generally protect their members, and that cohesiveness is fostered by the expression of a collective set of values to which the members of the group can adhere/support.

      --
      -Styopa
    25. Re:Why would this be a surprise? by FrootLoops · · Score: 1

      humans aren't going to evolve resistance to being shot in the head, no matter how many times it happens.

      Strictly speaking, I'm not so sure. Imagine a (horrific) society where a randomly selected fraction of people, before being allowed to procreate, must get shot in the head. Some live (eg. Rep. Giffords). Once in a while the survivors are better adapted to surviving such an injury (say with thicker skulls). After a while, the fatality rate decreases a bit, allowing for an increase in the fraction of those randomly selected (the fraction being chosen to avoid extinction while encouraging evolution). After a very long time of fatality rate decrease and survivor adaptations, you'd probably evolve high resistance to being shot in the head.

      The same reasoning can be applied to any desired trait which a species is even remotely capable of evolving resistance to. This one just happens to be extraordinarily horrible. Evolving resistance to having your atoms separated spacially around the universe, for instance, would be asking too much.

    26. Re:Why would this be a surprise? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are some idiots that think evolution never happen because it's not in their book of fiction, as a result any adaptation of a species comes as a shocking surprise.

    27. Re:Why would this be a surprise? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      humans are the least adaptive animals on the planet. this is why all the other animals are having to adapt at a faster rate.

    28. Re:Why would this be a surprise? by tftp · · Score: 1

      Humans have evolved a resistance to being shot in the head, it's just not a simple mechanical/physiological resistance. It's called society.

      To prove that you need to take a group of newborn children and raise them using only robots. Your theory will be proven if they form a society that abhors violence.

      But something tells me that even if such an experiment is run you will not get much more than a snapshot of a ghetto where violence is the king.

      it's inarguable that societies have evolved strategies to generally protect their members

      This is not a biological evolution. We aren't born pacifists; quite the opposite, actually. A society certainly can evolve, and so does the "Life" game in a computer. This has nothing to do with biological evolution as people understand it. The rules of the enlightened society are not living in genes. At best our genetic tendency to form societies is not much different from the desire of dogs to form packs. Both are in genes because they are advantageous.

    29. Re:Why would this be a surprise? by dakameleon · · Score: 1

      This is not a biological evolution. We aren't born pacifists; quite the opposite, actually. A society certainly can evolve, and so does the "Life" game in a computer. This has nothing to do with biological evolution as people understand it. The rules of the enlightened society are not living in genes. At best our genetic tendency to form societies is not much different from the desire of dogs to form packs. Both are in genes because they are advantageous.

      Society is a meme, not a gene. (and not a meme in the cat-picture sense). Humans have evolved the genetic ability to communicate and apply memes on top of genes; another plus is that memetic evolution is faster than genetic evolution.

      So yes, you would fail a strict gene-only-evolution test, but that's not the only story going on here.

      --
      Man who leaps off cliff jumps to conclusion.
    30. Re:Why would this be a surprise? by FishTankX · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, but PCB when we're talking about finish generally refers to polychlorinated biphenyls, chemicals that were used as coolants and dialectric (prevention of sparking/arcing) fluids in transformers and such.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polychlorinated_biphenyl

      They were banned because some of the compounds in them are toxic, similar to dioxin.

    31. Re:Why would this be a surprise? by YesIAmAScript · · Score: 1

      We have weeds that have evolved resistance to glyphosate in the wild. That is a much more impressive adaptation because glyphosate interferes with the production of key amino acids by plants.

      I have an ivy plant on the side of my house that pays no heed to glyphosate and ordinary clover is barely affected too (google it if you don't believe me)

      Glyphosate resistance isn't really as odd as people think it is.

      --
      http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
    32. Re:Why would this be a surprise? by Markizs · · Score: 1

      Also, even if certain subset of our species had evolved to be more resistant to headshots, it would be quite hard to notice. And after noticing - to test.

    33. Re:Why would this be a surprise? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Catholic Church teaches that there is no contradiction between Faith and evolution. The wikipedia article:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_evolution
      is dry even for me, but it has come up in several homilies (sermons) and there were no gasps of surprise from the congregation. The official teachings of the church, the Catechism, says this:

      The question about the origins of the world and of man has been the object of many scientific studies which have splendidly enriched our knowledge of the age and dimensions of the cosmos, the development of life-forms and the appearance of man.

      And the Pope said:

      Currently, I see in Germany, but also in the United States, a somewhat fierce debate raging between so-called “creationism” and evolutionism, presented as though they were mutually exclusive alternatives: those who believe in the Creator would not be able to conceive of evolution, and those who instead support evolution would have to exclude God. This antithesis is absurd because, on the one hand, there are so many scientific proofs in favour of evolution which appears to be a reality we can see and which enriches our knowledge of life and being as such. But on the other, the doctrine of evolution does not answer every query, especially the great philosophical question: where does everything come from? And how did everything start which ultimately led to man? I believe this is of the utmost importance.

      You won't find too many Catholics who say the Earth is 6000 years old.

    34. Re:Why would this be a surprise? by Derek+Pomery · · Score: 1

      Oh? I imagine if there were enough bullets flying around, thick skull bones and sloping foreheads might start getting selected for.
      Not every shot to the head is a killer, as bear hunters can attest.

      --
      -- perl -e'print pack"H*","6e656d6f406d38792e6f7267"' /. ate my old sig. Bastards.
    35. Re:Why would this be a surprise? by Derek+Pomery · · Score: 1

      Oops. I see FrootLoops already pointed this out. I hate the default comment layout for unauthenticated users that is basically impossible
      to change without signing in.
      (Ok, I should have expanded more comments anyway)

      --
      -- perl -e'print pack"H*","6e656d6f406d38792e6f7267"' /. ate my old sig. Bastards.
    36. Re:Why would this be a surprise? by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Nobody expects life to stop adapting to the environment, but there are limits; e.g., humans aren't going to evolve resistance to being shot in the head, no matter how many times it happens.

      Humans can and have evolved resistance to head injuries (why do you think you have a skull?), it's just that firearms evolve a lot faster than humans.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    37. Re:Why would this be a surprise? by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1
      Yahoo! somoewn who wants to talk about the article instead of the stupid anti - evolution arguments!

      Yes, creatures can and do adapt within limits And PCB's are an example of that. The model is that almost all of the species are killed by the toxin, yet there are some that survive. Those who do, and can reproduce, do so. Then those offspring that can tolerate the toxin do likewise. So after a while, you have a toxin tolerant species

      But it's not all wine and roses, because the species can in some cases be wiped out if they had no way to adapt in time. Would birds have been able to survive the effects that DDT had on their egg shells? Maybe, maybe not. One of the most amusing arguments you can have with the promotors of unlimited spraying is they long for the days of DDT, when people were dusted with the stuff. Yes, it worked, and yes, eventually insects would develop immunity, if we didn't eradicate them completely But merely establihing resistance to the toxin is not a sure fire way to survive. Some times the organism is weakend or surpise problems pop up. The traits that give rise to sickle cell anemia oddly enough are a protectant against malaria. So we tinker at our own risk.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    38. Re:Why would this be a surprise? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, why do you say humans wouldn't ever evolve that way? If you start with a glancing shot from a .22 and move on from there, and give it enough time, I'd expect they would.

      Bony armor is one of the first adaptations in the ancient history of the animal kingdom.

      Like other stresses, environmental stresses are kind of like that. Around the edges of the stressor, where only some individuals are killed by the stressor, is where the evolution will happen. That happens in across space, like, sure it's not going to happen in the worst polluted stream where PCBs are killing every fish, but in a slightly polluted stream, and then the evolved genotype will gradually improve and reclaim more and more polluted waters. (Perhaps not all waters, like humans won't evolve to resist a Howitzer shell to the skull, but animals have evolved some pretty thick bones...)

  4. Because they're KILLfish, duh ... by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 3, Funny

    That which kills other fish only makes them stronger!

    --
    The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    1. Re:Because they're KILLfish, duh ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Plus, you keep what you kill in the undersea.

    2. Re:Because they're KILLfish, duh ... by CrashandDie · · Score: 1

      Lemme guess, the joke sounded a lot better in your head?

    3. Re:Because they're KILLfish, duh ... by FooAtWFU · · Score: 1

      "Kill" is Dutch for "creek", so they're basically "creek-fish". The northeastern US is also home to the town of Fishkill, NY and the Schuylkill River in Pennsylvania. (Yes, that's pronounced "school-kill". The locals, though, are more apt to refer to the Schuylkill Expressway as the "Sure-kill Distressway".)

      --
      The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
  5. headlights by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How long until deer evolve to not walk in front of my car?

    1. Re:headlights by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 5, Insightful

      How long until deer evolve to not walk in front of my car?

      They already have. Those are in the woods, safe and sound. You're doing your part to help clean up the evolutionary dead ends.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    2. Re:headlights by deadweight · · Score: 1

      Same reason all 2 year old squirrels know what a car is.

  6. A better title by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    "All fish not immune to toxic sludge killed by said toxic sludge"

    Because that is really what evolution in this context means. The fish didn't react to the toxic sludge and develop immunity to it; There was already a population of fish at least somewhat immune to the toxin, and due to them being the only survivors, the whole population living in the sludge now is immune.

    1. Re:A better title by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      thats pretty much what evolution means in every context.

    2. Re:A better title by tomhudson · · Score: 1

      Or the toxic sludge caused enough mutations, some of which included an immunity to that same toxic sludge. You certainly don't need to have fish that had a pre-existing immunity. Every copy of every animal has a certain number of mutations - humans have, on average, 60 per person. Increase the environmental stressors (radiation, pollutants, etc) and that number is going to go up.

  7. up the food chain by tebee · · Score: 2

    So what happens to the animals that eat them and that aren't immune to the PCB?

    And you know who is at the top of the food chain ......

    --
    N.B. this user is far too lazy to write a witty and intelligent sig.
    1. Re:up the food chain by shentino · · Score: 1

      Sounds like humanity's just desserts for polluting the food web in the first place.

      I call it environmental karma.

    2. Re:up the food chain by zAPPzAPP · · Score: 1

      Cthulu?

    3. Re:up the food chain by CharlyFoxtrot · · Score: 1

      Well maybe among our 7 billion there are enough breeding pairs that are also resistant. The way we're running the world we might find out.

      --
      If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
    4. Re:up the food chain by NFN_NLN · · Score: 2

      So what happens to the animals that eat them and that aren't immune to the PCB?

      Much like how Sharks are resistant to cancer and eating their fins will "transfer the ability to you"; so will eating Killifish transfer PCB immunity to you.

      Killifish will now become a high priced delicacy in China. Or as we like to call it, operation payback.

    5. Re:up the food chain by artor3 · · Score: 1

      You think the robber barons responsible for the pollution eat anything fished out of the Hudson? Fat chance. If the toxins do work their way up the food chain, it'll be the peasant class that suffers for it.

    6. Re:up the food chain by GuldKalle · · Score: 3, Interesting

      If we ignore humans for a second, the next link in the food chain will either develop PCB resistance or learn not to eat that species. And then, the fish may use this poison actively as a defense mechanism.
      Oh evolution, you are cool!

      --
      What?
    7. Re:up the food chain by tebee · · Score: 1

      Oh evolution, you are cool!

      Yep it sure is - Now can some what explain to me why the F*ck 40% of a supposed advanced nation still deny it's existence ?

      Or do we wait for a time were either their god sends them a sign that they should believe in it or there is some subtle change in the chance of their offspring surviving such that they eventually die off - though then we won't get the satisfaction of telling them they were wrong.

      --
      N.B. this user is far too lazy to write a witty and intelligent sig.
    8. Re:up the food chain by AK+Marc · · Score: 3, Funny

      Danmit. They'll poison my soylent green when the peasants eat the fish. Let them eat cake!

    9. Re:up the food chain by Arancaytar · · Score: 1

      I suppose those animals would be fucked. Oh hey!

    10. Re:up the food chain by Leuf · · Score: 1

      Many, many years ago, the killfish simply decided to evolve into man and create PCBs, so it could use them as a defense mechanism. Which is a pretty stupid idea, when you think about it. But what do you expect from a fish?

    11. Re:up the food chain by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      So what happens to the animals that eat them and that aren't immune to the PCB?

      Depends - have you had the new PCB-binding protein spliced in yet?

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    12. Re:up the food chain by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1

      Sounds like humanity's just desserts for polluting the food web in the first place.

      You eat fish for dessert?

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    13. Re:up the food chain by Black+Parrot · · Score: 3, Funny

      You think the robber barons responsible for the pollution eat anything fished out of the Hudson? Fat chance. If the toxins do work their way up the food chain, it'll be the peasant class that suffers for it.

      Yes, but our Overlords will suffer when we perish and aren't around for them to exploit anymore.

      We should eat these fish just to spite them. Quick, before they outlaw it!

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    14. Re:up the food chain by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yep it sure is - Now can some what explain to me why the F*ck 40% of a supposed advanced nation still deny it's existence ?

      People who reject analytical though are easier to control so it is in the best interest of the powers that be to promote superstition among the proletariat.

    15. Re:up the food chain by GrumblyStuff · · Score: 1

      Or the next link's numbers will be impacted depending on how much of their diet is from the fish.

    16. Re:up the food chain by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep it sure is - Now can some what explain to me why the F*ck 40% of a supposed advanced nation still deny it's existence ?

      Or do we wait for a time were either their god sends them a sign that they should believe in it or there is some subtle change in the chance of their offspring surviving such that they eventually die off - though then we won't get the satisfaction of telling them they were wrong.

      Wait, this IS the sign! Jesus made loads of fishies back in the days, and now God has changed the poor fishies so they won't die. Take that you evil-lutionists!

    17. Re:up the food chain by tftp · · Score: 1

      Yes, but our Overlords will suffer when we perish and aren't around for them to exploit anymore.

      What use could possibly Overlords have for a gaggle of slum dwellers? Right now an Overlord who is in control of machines and property would do exceedingly well employing only top 10% of the population.

      Let's assume the Overlord being a computer - it is perfectly logical but has no feelings or morals. It is driven only by reason.

      The problem then is that every man who wants to consume $x needs to produce $y, and the worth of $x should be about equal to the worth of $y. Every set of people has individuals who can produce a lot and those who can't produce a thing. The latter group, in theory, should die. In practice it forms ghettos and lives on handouts (willful or not) of the former group. Ghetto people contribute nothing, and an Overlord would have every logical reason to exterminate them. The rest doesn't need to eat fish from Hudson, they produce enough to exchange their money for a decent food.

      This approach is known in some human societies. Revolutionaries of the 20th century often proclaimed: "Who doesn't work doesn't eat." To some extent that was the case in USSR. Jobs were always available, but the society had no government assistance or entitlements, aside from an old age pension. Everyone who was medically fit for work had to work, however little and however lightly. As an extreme case, you could work as a night guard at a kindergarten. That job would net you enough cash to rent a small room and have your daily meal. Not much else, but what would you expect if you hardly do anything? In Stalin's time those who avoided work could be shot or sent to Siberia to learn what the word "work" really means.

    18. Re:up the food chain by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      These were existing species which adapted to their environment, not a brand new species coming into existence. Mankind can observe micro-evolution like this taking place. But we have never observed macro-evolution.

    19. Re:up the food chain by tftp · · Score: 2

      Now can some what explain to me why the F*ck 40% of a supposed advanced nation still deny it's existence?

      Religion offers an easy way to become immortal. Science promises nothing of the sort, and atheists must be comfortable knowing that their death is final and there is no afterlife. See Pascal's Wager.

    20. Re:up the food chain by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 1

      That gives a whole new reason for the name Killfish.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
    21. Re:up the food chain by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hell yeah! We are so intelligent to believe in evolution and those darn christian suckers have no clue what's going on. Heck, they can't even imagine what it was like before the big bang happened.

    22. Re:up the food chain by Rhacman · · Score: 1

      I'm not too worried. If I screwed up in life and come back as a lower-life form at least mutant super-fish is an option.

      --
      Account -> Discussions -> Disable Sigs
    23. Re:up the food chain by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      And awesomely, since the killies still take up the PCBs, those who eat them in quantity will be poisoned.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    24. Re:up the food chain by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      These were existing species which adapted to their environment, not a brand new species coming into existence. Mankind can observe micro-evolution like this taking place. But we have never observed macro-evolution.

      And just what do you think "macro-evolution" is? Seriously. Do you even understand what it is that you're arguing?

    25. Re:up the food chain by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They've been saying it longer than that. You won't believe the source - Thessalonians 3:10. Penned by that evil, capitalist overlord Saint Paul. Even Christians from right around 100AD knew that communism didn't work with too many slackers. The original says "He who *will* not work, neither shall he eat." So feeding cripples, orphans, the feeble and the blind - OK. Feeding spoiled brats and gamblers, not so much. #OWS is learning this now. It's called "Moral Hazard" and is a part of life.

    26. Re:up the food chain by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't worry. There are a lot of the peasants to exploit. We just crossed 7 billion mark. And beauty is that the poorer they are the faster they reproduce creating even more peasants to exploit.

    27. Re:up the food chain by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Religion offers an easy way to become immortal. Science promises nothing of the sort,

      Science may not promise, but there is the possibility humans will learn how to extend life indefinitely in my lifetime, which is a bit like immortality.

      And Pascal got his sums wrong when he formulated his wager, there are lots of religions to choose from often with lots of variations within. So you can pick a religion to follow, have how you should live you life dictated to, and either still go to hell or there be no afterlife, assuming there is an afterlife the probability of going to hell for not picking the right religion is very high because of the small probability of picking the right one, so since we have zero evidence for an afterlife we are better living the life we certainly do have the way we want to.

      P.S. I have just read the wikipedia article on Pascal's Wager after I finished writing above and it did cover the argument I made, it seems clear that for Pascal only Christianity could be considered as a choice as he discounts other religions for various reasons.

  8. Solved Problem by negRo_slim · · Score: 1

    Problem solved!

    --
    On the Oregon Cost born and raised, On the beach is where I spent most of my days
  9. Douglas Adams was right by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

    Soon totally new organisms will crawl out of that river and demand welfare and voting rights.

    1. Re:Douglas Adams was right by girlintraining · · Score: 0

      Soon totally new organisms will crawl out of that river and demand welfare and voting rights.

      Not unless they're white.

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    2. Re:Douglas Adams was right by Required+Snark · · Score: 0
      You are a fucking racist slug.

      Do you hang your KKK outfit in the closet where it won't get wrinkled but someone might see it, or do you fold it in a drawer where it might get wrinkled but is out of sight?

      --
      Why is Snark Required?
    3. Re:Douglas Adams was right by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      I have no idea what you are talking about.

    4. Re:Douglas Adams was right by Christian+Smith · · Score: 1

      Asok appears to be going through this right now (the evolving to handle sludge, that is):

      http://www.dilbert.com/2011-10-31/

  10. Conservative Idealism verified by Science! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Fish Evolve Immunity To Toxic Sludge

    If fish can do it, then it should be no problem for humans. You left wing environmentalists lose again. We Conservatives can pollute and know there is nothing wrong with it. Again, more evidence promoting the Conservative lifestyle.

    1. Re:Conservative Idealism verified by Science! by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Fish Evolve Immunity To Toxic Sludge

      If fish can do it, then it should be no problem for humans. You left wing environmentalists lose again. We Conservatives can pollute and know there is nothing wrong with it. Again, more evidence promoting the Conservative lifestyle.

      Excellent. We're going to put all of you at the bottom of the Hudson river where you can munch on PCBs and other fun substances. In a couple of million years you might get back on land.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    2. Re:Conservative Idealism verified by Science! by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1

      Fish Evolve Immunity To Toxic Sludge

      If fish can do it, then it should be no problem for humans. You left wing environmentalists lose again. We Conservatives can pollute and know there is nothing wrong with it. Again, more evidence promoting the Conservative lifestyle.

      But Hippies screw around a lot more, so we'll be the ones that evolve the immunity first.

      Also, what with global warming and all that (GWAAT), we'll be running around nekkid all the time, and do even more breeding than we did back in the sixties.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    3. Re:Conservative Idealism verified by Science! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fish Evolve Immunity To Toxic Sludge

      If fish can do it, then it should be no problem for humans. You left wing environmentalists lose again. We Conservatives can pollute and know there is nothing wrong with it. Again, more evidence promoting the Conservative lifestyle.

      Nice try, but Conservatives don't believe in evolution.

  11. Dumping on fish by kanto · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Even though a single evolutionary change can mean the difference between living and dying I would think it also effect everything else, especially when it has to do with metabolism. In this case the fishs' genes have found a local maxima, so to say, that makes them resistant to PCB; nobody knows what evolutionary possibilities they've sacrificed and what it does to them in the long run.

    1. Re:Dumping on fish by greenreaper · · Score: 1

      The article suggests that the change really isn't that big. In fact, the summary is a little misleading, as they have a very good idea of why the fish are surviving.

  12. A chilling fact by dontmakemethink · · Score: 1

    This is gonna make it much harder to finally wipe them out.

    --

    War as we knew it was obsolete
    Nothing could beat complete denial
    - Emily Haines
  13. "Why the killifish survive is a mystery" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why or how? *facepalm-slashdot-editors*

  14. Re:Survival of the fittest, NOT evolution by MichaelSmith · · Score: 2

    This is simply a case of fish that have a certain trait mating and passing on that trait to offspring, not a case of spontaneous evolution.

    But thats what evolution is. A small fraction of those traits will have come from mutations, not from the previous generation.

  15. Re:Survival of the fittest, NOT evolution by M1FCJ · · Score: 1

    Not spontaneous? Obviously it's a random mutation causing a difference in biology was selected by environmental pressure. Evolution works.

  16. Re:Survival of the fittest, NOT evolution by hipp5 · · Score: 1

    This is simply a case of fish that have a certain trait mating and passing on that trait to offspring, not a case of spontaneous evolution.

    That is evolution...

  17. In a PCB-laden world... by rbrander · · Score: 1

    ...only they will be healthy. I, for one, welcome our new piscine masters.

    1. Re:In a PCB-laden world... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It's always been my belief that the descendants of smokers would be the "fittest" to survive a world of atmospheric pollution, as their lungs should have adapted to the poor quality of what they inhale !!
      By progressively "banning" smokers we are dooming our descendants !
      As a pack of smokes is now too expensive in Australia, I am now smoking a lot more "weed" to compensate.

  18. I'll wait until I hear from Al on this one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I'll wait until I hear from Al on this one. everyone knows Al Gore is the only trusted opinion when it comes to anything environmental. From global Warming, to Spotted Left Foot Owl/Squirrel Hybrids, he is the real leader in the field.

    1. Re:I'll wait until I hear from Al on this one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But there are times where he's way out in left field, in more ways than one.

  19. Re:Survival of the fittest, NOT evolution by SJHillman · · Score: 5, Informative

    Evolution is essentially the same thing as survival of the fittest followed by passing its traits on to the offspring because it enabled the fittest to reproduce more or live long enough to reproduce... and over time, the offspring with that trait will begin outnumber other members of its species without the trait because they have a better chance of survival. Also, spontaneous evolution is an oxymoron.

  20. cookoo canary by epine · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It says a lot about PCB distribution and signal strength if multiple species have evolved responses over sub-century time frames.

    It was convenient while it lasted for the fish who ingested our industrial waste stream to grow carbuncles and remove themselves from the human menu by simple visual inspection. But I guess we're heading back to the days where the host takes a brave first bite, and all the guests applaud if dinner proceeds. We'll all be double checking the Russian royal penumbra to ensure our host doesn't carry any midichlorians of Rasputin lineage.

    Canaries in the coal mine all the way up the food chain. Tag, you're it.

    1. Re:cookoo canary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      what are you on about? seriously, I want to know.

    2. Re:cookoo canary by St.Creed · · Score: 5, Informative

      I'll try a translation:

      Up until now, it was easy to spot fish that was loaded to the gills with toxic chemicals, because they had weird growths. Now they have evolved resistances, you can't spot them by visual inspection anymore so it will be easier to insert toxic fish into the foodchain. We then return to the times were, if you had a dinner, the host was required to take a bite to show that nothing was poisonous. But for people who are genetically linked to people with a famous resistance to poison, like Rasputin, this may not even cause them to blink - so you also need to check whether your host is a descendant from Rasputin or other likely resistant folk (Borgia family would be candidates :)).

      So basically, we had early warning signals from fish but now *we* have become the early warning signals (canaries in the coalmine) - and if we live, the food may be safe. Hurray for dumping chemicals in the water.

      Ofcourse, the OP phrased this much nicer than my translation.

      --
      Therefore, by the (faulty) logic you're using, you're just a cow with a keyboard - osu-neko (2604)
    3. Re:cookoo canary by Agent0013 · · Score: 1

      Thanks for that translation. I hadn't realized how much was included in what seemed an off-handed comment at first. My lack of knowledge on Rasputin and his genetic resistance to poison caused me to miss the point entirely. And the canaries in the coal mine line is much more powerful having gotten the previous statements.

      --

      -- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.
  21. See? It all works out in the end. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    These trivial problems like "pollution" have a way of fixing themselves.

  22. Plan B already in motion by khallow · · Score: 1

    Have you heard that microevolution != macroevolution? Well, now you have! It would not do to imply that an all-powerful, all-knowing being needs not play with their creation like an ADD toddler playing with their ant farm.

    1. Re:Plan B already in motion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The only difference between the two is TIME. They are the same process, you bible-thumping nitwit.

    2. Re:Plan B already in motion by khallow · · Score: 0

      I'd thump your head to let in a little clue except that it is clear your kind evolved with very thick skulls.

    3. Re:Plan B already in motion by Squiddie · · Score: 2

      An all-powerful, all-knowing being would create perfect beings with free will at the very beginning unless he was some kind of psychopath. Else, he is not all-powerful or not all-knowing. And also there is no difference between micro and macroevolution, or what barrier is there for macroevolution?

    4. Re:Plan B already in motion by IICV · · Score: 2

      Minor point of conflict: you cannot have a universe that contains both:
      1. at least one all-knowing entity and
      2. at least one other entity which has free will.

      The propositions conflict with one another.

      By definition, the future actions of an entity with free will cannot be known. By definition, an all-knowing entity knows the future actions of all entities. Hence, a contradiction exists, and both propositions cannot be true. This is a fairly common form of logical disproof.

      It's like an immovable object and an irresistible force; they simply cannot be in the same universe, because the existence of one precludes the existence of another.

    5. Re:Plan B already in motion by Joe+Tie. · · Score: 1

      It would not do to imply that an all-powerful, all-knowing being needs not play with their creation like an ADD toddler playing with their ant farm.

      I totally agree. Though given all the evidence of darwinian evolution that's one of the reasons I became an atheist. I'd agree that it's an either/or situation. It's just that the deity theory has no evidence while the atheist one has tons.

      --
      Everything will be taken away from you.
    6. Re:Plan B already in motion by Carewolf · · Score: 1

      Having free will does not necessarily conflict with being predictable. If I offer you $1000 with no cave-ats, you are free to refuse it, but almost 100% of people will accept it, but that doesn't mean they don't have a free will.

    7. Re:Plan B already in motion by squizzar · · Score: 1

      You've missed the point there: You're comparing what you can predict from statistics with knowing everything. If I roll a dice a bazillion times then I expect to see 1/6 of the rolls to be 6s, 1/6 to be 3s etc. The all knowing creator would be able to tell you the result of every single roll in advance - because the all knowing creator created it and knows exactly what will happen. That would also mean the dice are no longer truly random, since the sequence is already known - again because I'm the all knowing creator. The same applies to this free will argument: you may have the illusion of free will because you don't know that everything you do has been pre-planned, including the thought process that leads you to believe you have made a free decision. The all knowing creator either knows the of everything in the universe at the quantum level for the whole of time or isn't an all knowing creator.

      It's at that point that the whole concept of some higher power becomes, to me at least, ludicrous. It's basically arguing that the entirety of our reality is a simulation.

    8. Re:Plan B already in motion by squizzar · · Score: 1

      It would not do to imply that an all-powerful, all-knowing being needs not play with their creation like an ADD toddler playing with their ant farm.

      First off, the sentence doesn't make a lot of sense. 'needs _not_ play'? So you'd like us to imply that your all powerful all knowing being _is_ like your ritalin deprived child?

      If not, why would it 'not do'? What's going to happen? Let me borrow your troll hat: your all knowing creator is a whore loving cunt who would fornicate with a diseased baboon in exchange for a bucket of mouldy semen. Your all knowing creator knew I was going to say that, and has done nothing to prevent it. Either it has no self respect, or does not care for anything I may do, which means that there is no reason for me to prostrate myself before it except to appease its vanity, in which case your all-knowing, all-powerful creator has a mentality somewhere between that of a spoilt child and a third world dictator, and is therefore not worthy of mine or anyone else's worship.

    9. Re:Plan B already in motion by hjrnunes · · Score: 1

      I think the keyword there is almost. So, not all will accept. Which in turn means it's effectively unpredictable who will accept.

    10. Re:Plan B already in motion by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      There is no such thing as a "deity theory". Similarly, there cannot be an "atheist theory". As neither "theory" offers a testable statement, there is no theory.

    11. Re:Plan B already in motion by khallow · · Score: 1
      Ok, I guess I should have said "woosh". Recall way back when that kilodelta said:

      I wonder how the 6,000 year old earthers will respond.

      The micro vs macro thing is the obvious Young Earther response. Then there will be that things are of different kinds and you can't get one kind from another, and so on. My point was that we already know what the obvious response would be, even though it would indicate that God had created a system in which he had to continually interfere and manipulate things. Yes, like an ADD child. And as you point out, that doesn't make the Young Earther's god worthy of worship.

    12. Re:Plan B already in motion by khallow · · Score: 1

      We're talking about a situation where prediction is 100% accurate. There's no error whatsoever. That's how we get that determinism precludes free will.

      It's worth noting at this point that this conflict between power and free will, along with the deification of Jesus Christ, is the reason for the division of God into the Trinity of Christianity. Jesus has to be part of God as an initial axiom. The deterministic part of God is outside the universe. Some nondeterministic part of God, the "Holy Ghost" can be inside the universe. That's a way that the conflict is resolved.

      Free will also shows up in the Genesis story that led to Man's "fall" from Eden. The first exercise of free will was Eve's choice to eat of the Tree of Knowledge.

      Anyway, the point is that this philosophical issue is important enough that major religions have spent many years addressing it.

    13. Re:Plan B already in motion by Agent0013 · · Score: 1

      Minor point of conflict: you cannot have a universe that contains both: 1. at least one all-knowing entity and 2. at least one other entity which has free will.

      The propositions conflict with one another.

      By definition, the future actions of an entity with free will cannot be known. By definition, an all-knowing entity knows the future actions of all entities. Hence, a contradiction exists, and both propositions cannot be true. This is a fairly common form of logical disproof.

      It's like an immovable object and an irresistible force; they simply cannot be in the same universe, because the existence of one precludes the existence of another.

      This makes me think of Muad'Dib (Dune). He knows all the future paths that are possible based on his or others different actions. Just because you don't have the ability doesn't mean it isn't possible somehow. You can't see a 4 dimentional object (space dimentions only, no time), but we can use math to model them and figure out how they might exist.

      --

      -- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.
    14. Re:Plan B already in motion by ultranova · · Score: 1

      By definition, the future actions of an entity with free will cannot be known.

      No, that's not the definition of free will. Free will is a concept in philosophy and law and means, roughly, that nobody's holding a gun to your head, while determinism is a concept in physics. They don't operate on the same level of reality and thus can't be meaningfully contrasted.

      Another way of looking at this is asking why does an actor with free will choose something over something else? Because of personal preferences? Then someone who knows those preferences could guess what those actions might be. Because of personal history? That, too, can be known and accounted for. By choosing completely at random? How is rolling dice and doing what it tells you to "free" in any meaningful sense?

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    15. Re:Plan B already in motion by buddilla · · Score: 0

      There isn't a contraction. All things that can happen will happen at least in different universes. One just needs to be all-knowing of all these universes.

      --
      Pitch Forks: check Torches: check Angry People: check - A. LaChasse V for Victory
  23. You make yourself look silly when... by Anubis+IV · · Score: 1

    ...you refer to selection as evolution. Selection is well understood, and pretty much everyone from the most fundamental creationist to the most outspoken evolutionist will agree on the fact that when a species is faced with an unavoidable situation in which most of them will be killed off, only those that exhibit traits allowing them to survive will persist to pass on their genes. If it can be demonstrated that not a single one of them had that trait previously, then that would be interesting, to be sure, but proving that is nigh impossible.

    Misspelling the word "they" in the summary doesn't help your credibility either.

    1. Re:You make yourself look silly when... by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1

      ...you refer to selection as evolution. Selection is well understood, and pretty much everyone from the most fundamental creationist to the most outspoken evolutionist will agree on the fact that when a species is faced with an unavoidable situation in which most of them will be killed off, only those that exhibit traits allowing them to survive will persist to pass on their genes

      And everyone from the most fundamental creationist to the least fundamental creationist will continue to deny reality long after anyone who isn't a member of their cult accepts it.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    2. Re:You make yourself look silly when... by Spad · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Repeat after me: "Evolution does not work that way".

      Evolution isn't something that magically allows plants and animals to adapt to a specific set of circumstances, that is an entirely random process. This mutation probably happened decades or centuries ago (or possibly even *due* to the PCBs, which would be ironic but difficult to prove) and has now, as you've said, been brought to prominence because all the fish without it have died off due to the high levels of PCBs in the water.

      The fish *have* evolved immunity to the toxic sludge, but it's not a causative statement and hopefully wasn't intended as such.

    3. Re:You make yourself look silly when... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mutations are the mechanism for creating variation, natural selection ("survival of the fittest") is the filter, evolution is the result.

    4. Re:You make yourself look silly when... by VoidCrow · · Score: 1

      Selection, operating on any given population (in the absence of a continuous source of fresh genetic diversity in the form of, say, random mutation), will tend to reduce the genetic diversity of the population in response to any given environmental stress. Given time and successive random environmental stresses, this will tend to drive the population to extinction.

      Unless of course God sits in the background, manually fucking with his designs to make them work.

      Actually, I can see that this might explain the flatfish.

      And the human retina.

      Oh, and the panda.

    5. Re:You make yourself look silly when... by Anubis+IV · · Score: 2

      That's referring to the idea of "microevolution", which they later define further down the page, and which is, itself, a bit of a misnomer since it merely refers to adaptation and selection. I'll repeat again: it's an overstatement to refer to selection as "evolution". It's a mechanic of it, but it is not it.

    6. Re:You make yourself look silly when... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I completely agree. Evolution is a fraud and creationism is the only rational explanation for what happened here.

      I will now go worship my statue of the Virgin Mary.

    7. Re:You make yourself look silly when... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Excellent point. Thanks.

    8. Re:You make yourself look silly when... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...you refer to selection as evolution.

      Here, start by reading this then come back when you've educated yourself:
      http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evo_25

    9. Re:You make yourself look silly when... by cheaphomemadeacid · · Score: 0

      pff http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle the fish that DIDN'T have PCB survivability all died? Now THAT'S evolution

    10. Re:You make yourself look silly when... by tbird20d · · Score: 1

      The fish *have* evolved immunity to the toxic sludge...

      But only if they actually did evolve. As the grandparent rightly points out, this case appears to be an excellent confirmation of selection, but that's not what's missing in the dialog to convince people of evolution. In this case, we don't have confirmation of a mutation, let alone a *random* mutation. A non-random mutation (a "designed" one) wouldn't count, obviously.

      This is what, I believe, the grandparent was saying. You can't run around trying to convince people of evolution just by pointing out instances of selection. This is, unfortunately, what often happens - causing people to just become entrenched in their positions and the dialog to falter.

    11. Re:You make yourself look silly when... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > that is an entirely random process
      No, it is Lamarckian inheritance, not to be confused with creationism.

    12. Re:You make yourself look silly when... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Precisely. An individual fish doesn't evolve a trait. However, this population of fish has evolved to show this trait.

  24. IOW, the others just died from the PCB by G3ckoG33k · · Score: 1

    IOW, the others just died from the PCB and the ones that we have now are the survivors. As per Darwin prediction. Excellent, in a marauding way.

    1. Re:IOW, the others just died from the PCB by dAzED1 · · Score: 1

      the reason this is interesting (or, moreso than what we've long observed...) is that it's an animal, as others have pointed out. Mere selection isn't enough; that implies there was already, without the toxis sludge, fish swimming around who had the natural resistence to it. The reality is that our DNA is more complicated than that, and it instead seems designed (err...apologies, truly the best word for it) to respond to stress by not just having some sort of random mutation and hoping for the best...but instead to have mutations that benefit them. This happens far more often than the random mutations that would have just happened to been better suited to the changing environment. Meaning - something other than Darwin. Yes, natural selection has a big impact. But sometimes - especially in short periods of time - darwinian evolution is not at all sufficient to maintain a system, or explain the changes that take place.

    2. Re:IOW, the others just died from the PCB by G3ckoG33k · · Score: 1

      Natural selection was lucky to handle this situation. Most toxic agents are too quick to kill.

      An 'other factor' may have been the the toxic sludge itself, increasing the mutation rate and by chance providing some fish with a much needed mutation.

      Natural selection with an ironic touch, again. We, oxygen consumers, were better off than our cousins, those anaerobic bastards forced to live underground two billion years ago.

    3. Re:IOW, the others just died from the PCB by dAzED1 · · Score: 1

      that's the point though - there are intentional mechanisms built into the DNA pathways that deliberately cause genetic mutations during stress events. That's not "natural selection." "Natural selection" only describes some things, and only on a meta level. When you get specific about a time period and a species, it stops being the meaningful agent for change; it plays a secondary, less interesting role. To think adaptation is only due to natural selection is to do great injustice to the amazing nature of DNA.

    4. Re:IOW, the others just died from the PCB by iamacat · · Score: 1

      You are assuming that a. concentration of toxic sludge has always been constant, not slowly rising over time b. fish can not swim between areas with high and low concentration and c. genes involved are not beneficial for some other purpose. In principal, nothing precludes an organism with self-modifying DNA, except it would have one heck of a cancer rate. But you may want to read about gene expression for a more plausible way to alter properties of organisms in a more directed way than random mutation and reproduction.

  25. MOD PARENT +1 Insightful by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This guy nailed it. I went through a Catholic high school as one of the "hardcore evolutionists" and got to college and encountered a small enclave of fundamentalist creationists who irritated me to no end. Ironically, they got me to be a better scientist as I started questioning my own biases. I had no formal background or experience with biology yet I just took all the evolution stuff at face value. I'll learn more about biology soon enough I guess.

    Anyway, +1 Insightful parent. -1 Douchebag me for being a coattail rider.

  26. Re:Something broken doesn't mean evolution by Nidi62 · · Score: 2

    Basically the fish are an example of mutations and natural selection. The damage genes in the fish make it better suited to it's environment but it doesn't show it getting more complex, actually the opposite, a weaker fish. But you dont get published without towing the line of Evolution. Notice how the mutations are limited to the Hudson area. The fish are less fit than the wild fish in the oceans.

    How do you think evolution produces different species? You have the same species in 2 different areas. The conditions change in one area or favor certain traits over others. Eventually, the animals in that area evolve into a different species. You cannot say that one species is weaker that the other. What you claim to be the "stronger"fish would not survive in the Hudson, while these "weaker" ones can. Each one is stronger than the other in their respective environments.

    --
    The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
  27. An excuse to dump more PCB by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    More than a study, I think this is just an excuse to lower the standards and dump more pollution into the river.

    Sorry, but every change in the environment has significant changes in many factors of life, marine or ground.

  28. Nope. by khasim · · Score: 1

    It's been my experience that fights are not between scientists and zealots; they are between zealots and other zealots.

    Nope. Otherwise we wouldn't be seening all the attempts such as "teach the controversy" and "teach both" in schools.

    Maybe on Internet sites it is zealots vs zealots. But in the real world it is zealots vs everyone-else.

    To the hardcore evolutionists ...

    And what, exactly, is a "hardcore evolutionist"? Since current medical/biological science is 100% based on evolution.

    Modern science is built around the idea that you can never actually prove a theory, only disprove it and build a better theory.

    So far, so good.

    When you stop trying to disprove your models and accept them as truth, you stop being a scientist and step into the realm of faith.

    Nice. But you haven't identified anyone who is doing that.

    But it is easy to find the Creationist zealots.

    1. Re:Nope. by xmorg · · Score: 1

      Here is where you prove that you are an "Evolution Zealot". If I take a class in college, or high school, its usually called "biology". In "biology" class, I learn about evolution. But you say that "current medical/biological science is 100% based on evolution". That's like saying that math is 100% based on division. Evolution is usually a chapter in a biology book.

      I can identify quite a few people who just accept evolution as truth and who are in such a hurry to push it, that they neglect basic scientific method in their haste to publish it. "Archaeoraptor" (national geographic), "Piltdown man", Nebraska man, the bone wars, and the most well known "Brontosaurus" which was probably a Apatosaurus with out a head.

      Evolution is rife with hoaxes and scientists looking to make a name for themselves by finding a mysterious bone and reconstructing an entire fossil from it. Likewise Christianity has it own share of people trying to find the ark, or claiming that this spear, or that chuck of wood is a relic. But what is disturbing about evolution is, you cant blame a religious fanatic for building a shrine to a fake relic, but how do you explain a scientist who puts up a fraud in a natural history museum, or continues print textbooks which show links in evolution that has been debunked?

    2. Re:Nope. by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1
      Scientist are humans - and I blame any hoaxing scientist as much as I blame the idiots that insist that the shroud of Turin is real.

      And your apparent forgiving attitude towards the many holy foreskins of Jesus, yet it is not so forgiveable for a scientist to defraud, shows a real inconsistency. So, hate to do the "citation needed" thing, but why exactly to you disagree that evolution exists? is it a digital situation, like the Piltdown man being a fraud means that all of evolution is likewise a fraud? This means that the multiplicity of holy foreskins mean Jesus didn't exist?

      And there is the strangeness. Evolution is held to some impossibily high standard of proof by those who oppose the idea, yet for so many of the opposing view, there is no proof at all needed, just faith. And oddly enough, that faith is something that is told to them, as I haven't found the anti evolution parts in the bible yet. Don't give me the "after their kind" part, either - it's correct that goats beget goats)

      Believe or don't believe, it really doesn't matter. Nor is the issue deceided by debate. Evolution, specifically denial of it, is the US equivalent of the Communist's denial of genetics. Poltical and/or faith based science.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    3. Re:Nope. by xmorg · · Score: 1

      Why do you say its a "Forgiving attitude"

      I said "a religious fanatic for building a shrine to a fake relic,"
      More so are the people who know its fake but still lie knowing the bible says that Lying is wrong.

      It is not I who puts science at a higher standard but science itself. Faith does not require things to be observable, verifiable and subject to peer review, etc. The faithful will continue to believe unless its proven wrong (and some long after that) - like the website that make a strong argument for a flat word today.

      Science on the other hand, is supposed to answer the questions with more than "just trust me".

      Take black holes for example. Steven Hawkings theories on them are great, and make a lot of sense, but until we make a spaceship that can withstand being eating by one, (and can travel that far) we are very limited as to what we can say with certainty. We try to make mini ones i hear :)

      Likewise fossils found today are well preserved by one method or the other, and are therefore the exception, not the rule. A somethingusauras eaten by a bigbadasaurase for example went through a regular decomposition process and no longer exists. We only find a somethingasaurase that fell in a tar pit, or in a freezing lake that became a big chunk of ice, or something buried in a landslide, or volcano. The best evidence on ancient roman life was Pompeii (a well preserved city due to not normal circumstances) Or we think something is a reptile until we find it with hair and memory glands. So at best we can say "we don't know"

  29. Re:Survival of the fittest, NOT evolution by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

    That is evolution...

    I'm glad to see somebody was awake in Freshman biology class.

    --
    My God, it's Full of Source!
    OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  30. Only time by wolfheart111 · · Score: 1

    It's only a matter of time before we experience the same effects. Its kind of the like the "bird in the mine" What happens to our fellow world companions will soon happen to us. Thank You

    --
    [($)]
  31. River? by dutchwhizzman · · Score: 1

    They're in my fridge right now!

    --
    I was promised a flying car. Where is my flying car?
  32. So selection is accepted by creationists? by dutchwhizzman · · Score: 1

    If so, all they need to accept now is the fact that random gene mutations happen, and they'll accept evolution as actually happening. The starting point and the origin may be still debatable, but I dare say that it's hard for creationists to deny actual evolution happening on this planet as we speak, and in the past.

    --
    I was promised a flying car. Where is my flying car?
    1. Re:So selection is accepted by creationists? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, because developing an immunity to something is exactly the same as if that fish sprouted some legs and walked up out of the water. Call me when you see one species turn into an entirely different species.

    2. Re:So selection is accepted by creationists? by St.Creed · · Score: 1

      There is no need at all to prove "mutations are good". All it takes is a single dominant mutation that benefits the species and causes members of that species to be more succesfull *in their habitat*. Even if 10000000000 mutations are bad, none of them matter if one is beneficial because *that* mutation will be the one that will carry forward. If you want to dispute this, *you* have to prove that *no* mutation can *ever* be good in *any* environment. And that hypothesis has been falsified for a long time now.

      Case in point: white people are carriers of a mutation, that caused them to be more sensitive to the sun. A harmful mutation *in Africa* but beneficial in different circumstances where you don't get much sun and thus vitamine D - such as in Europe during the Ice Ages.

      And I'm not even taking into account that a lot of evolutionary paths were minor adaptations in already existing functionality, basically within the normal genetic variation you could expect, with the environment exerting strong pressure on survival of one end of the range. Example: if your food is found at 2 meters, your average max reach is 1.80m and the normal variation in height is +/- 20 cm., I can guarantee you that either the species will start building platforms, or only the tall ones will eat.

      --
      Therefore, by the (faulty) logic you're using, you're just a cow with a keyboard - osu-neko (2604)
    3. Re:So selection is accepted by creationists? by St.Creed · · Score: 1

      Call me when you develop brains. Evolution isn't about fish getting up suddenly and deciding to move house.

      --
      Therefore, by the (faulty) logic you're using, you're just a cow with a keyboard - osu-neko (2604)
  33. Re:Something broken doesn't mean evolution by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

    (I define evolution as change going up hill, or as to quote a catch parse, "goo to you via zoo". I do not defined it as "things changes", as Natural Selection & Mutations cover that area already.)

    Too bad your definition isn't the same one as the rest of the world's. YOU don't get to create definitions that suite your limited understanding of the world.

    Go do some reading and then come back and talk at the next thread.

    --
    Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
  34. Unholy Combination by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Now the evolutionists and the anti-environmentalists will get together. This will mean the anti-evolution people will have to adopt an environmental stance.

    Quick, somebody play The World Turned Upside Down.

  35. Re:Survival of the fittest, NOT evolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actually you miss the GP's point. GP is saying the trait was already present but has now spread. Evolution requires a new trait to come into existence.

    Example1: Sol increases its UV output X fold and all melatonin deprived people die from skin cancer before age 11. Only people who have a higher melatonin level survive to breed. This is not evolution.

    Example2: Same situation except a novel protein causes keratin monomers to increase in density near the surface of the skin. Increased density blocks UV damage and allows people with a low melatonin content to survive past a viable breeding age thus passing on this new trait. This is evolution.

  36. Today they are "vitamins", 100K years ago...? by retroworks · · Score: 1

    Evolution is a tricky argument for we the living.

    --
    Gently reply
  37. Re:Survival of the fittest, NOT evolution by nomadic · · Score: 1

    GP is wrong; evolution involves the species level. You're talking about spontaneous mutation, which is only one element of natural selection.

  38. and the fish can be made into little lisa slurry! by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    to be made at the Little Lisa Recycling Plant.

  39. I don't get it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Am I supposed to be surprised?

  40. The obligatory by Holammer · · Score: 1

    "life, uh... finds a way."

  41. Distiction without a difference. by pavon · · Score: 2

    All genes have tons of variants, and these variants had to be introduced into the population at some time. Evolution doesn't need to for traits to be introduced due to environmental pressures in order to work; they are introduced at random by mutations. So whether the trait was introduced before or after the dumping of PCBs began really isn't that interesting as it is just a matter of chance, and doesn't prove anything about evolution. The interesting part is that it occurred at all.

    These fish couldn't be selected for their immunity to PCBs if some of them hadn't already obtained the trait in some manner to begin with, and selection is an integral part of evolution. Thus arguing that this is "just" selection and not evolution is making a distinction without a difference.

  42. Life.... by Foxhoundz · · Score: 1

    Life finds a way. What I find really amusing is that we humans have convinced ourselves that we need to take care of our environment for the sake of other animals that live among us. In reality, we should be worrying about our own survival. You see, since we lack basic survival skills, we have developed large brains to create a buffer from harsh environments, thus slowing our own evolution (micro and macro). It's not the end of the world if we destroy our environment. Life will find away....without us. tl;dr? This comic sums it all up: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/upload/2011/06/what_mother_nature_thinks_of_u/sweetnature.jpeg

    1. Re:Life.... by GNULinuxGuy · · Score: 1

      Of course life will find a way. That doesn't mean we should ignore our impact on our environment; especially given how delicate some balances in nature have proven to be. Even if a given species isn't maintaining some balance in nature that other things depend on, we can still learn a lot by studying them, and have fun doing it. Besides, I'm not a fan of a bunch of people suffering/dying while adaptations occur simply because it's cheaper/easier to ignore the big picture.

      --
      Earn Cash and Prizes, and get free stuff!
  43. Re:Something broken doesn't mean evolution by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

    What exactly doesn't complexity have to do with this? And fitness is a measure within an environment. The environment in this case are these bodies of water with high levels of PCBs. Your post is so fucking muddled, as typical of Creationist bullshit, that you can't even keep the point straight. What does "weakness" have to do with complexity? What is complexity in this situation?

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  44. Re:Something broken doesn't mean evolution by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

    "Kind" has no biological meaning at all. What is a "fish" kind? Is a shark a "fish" kind?

    Evolution, simply put, is change in the genetic makeup of a population over time.

    And as to your infantile attack on abiogenesis, well, that, I suppose is just thrown in there for good measure.

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  45. No need top overcompensate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because you abuse it you fucking pathetic asshole. In civilised countries you would be held accountable.

    Oh and fuck you racist.

  46. related stupidity: by circletimessquare · · Score: 1
    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  47. Re:Something broken doesn't mean evolution by tomhudson · · Score: 1

    but it doesn't show it getting more complex, actually the opposite, a weaker fish

    Evolution doesn't work by producing ever-more complex examples. Case in point - cats. The domestic cat brain loses 2/3 of its brain cells during it's early growth - they simply aren't needed for its' environmental niche, and a waste of resources, so the cats that pruned back on brain cells were able to survive on less food, etc.

    Adders Tongue has 1200 chromosomes. Guess that makes them more complex than humans.

    Or if you want to go by the number of genes, Amoebas got us beat 209 times over (670,000,000,000 for the amoeba, 3,200,000,000 for humans).

    Natural selection never made any claims about producing anything other than creatures best fit for their environmental niche. Not as your "evolution as change going up hill". More complex encoding/expressing techniques allow for fewer resources, much easier disruption/mutation, and quicker evolution through natural selection for each niche. That's one reason why we saw such quick evolution in humans despite the relatively small number of genes, and one reason why amoebas are still amoebas - too much redundant stability and too many genes that only encode for one trait, or are just there as junk pairs, acting as scaffolding to stabilize the dna structure.

  48. Uh oh... You used the "E" word! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't let the Republicans know... They'll come after you with pitchforks and bibles!

  49. Re:Something broken doesn't mean evolution by vadim_t · · Score: 1

    In reality, there's no such thing as a "species".

    It's purely a human concept that we use to make sense of things. Even Darwin already noted that the number of species drastically varies depending on who and how does the counting.

    Say, does it count as species if they can interbreed if genetic material is exchanged, but:

    A. Live separately? Eg, lions and tigers
    B. Have incompatible courtship rituals?
    C. Are interested in mating at incompatible times?
    D. Consider each other too alien looking to try breeding in normal circumstances?
    E. Offspring are rarely viable?

    New species don't really pop into existence, we create them by deciding "this animal looks different enough that we should give it a new name".

    If one were to look at how a wolf got turned into a domestic dog, there wouldn't be a fixed moment where a wolf suddenly became a dog. Rather, there'd be a population of more and more sociable wolves (some of which would be nice, and some less), until most people would agree that this wolf adopted by the more radical parts of the village is starting to look rather different from the kind we find in the wild, so we might as well name it something else.

  50. Re:Survival of the fittest, NOT evolution by Your.Master · · Score: 1

    Example 1 is evolution, and is probably far more frequent than Example 2 -- you're just missing the fact that evolution starts before Sol even increases its ouput.

    In times of relative stability, a lot of mutations happen and they all survive because the species is still generally well-adapted to their environment, even if some adaptations have minor disadvantages. Then an environmental change happens, and suddenly the minor disadvantage is a major advantage and the adaptation spreads throughout the population (other pre-existing adaptations that became major disadvantages also fade away).

    Evolution doesn't require that the "new" thing happen before the environmental change that makes it important.

    So you see, Example1 is actually identical to Example2, except that the novel protein happened before Sol increased its UV output. And why wouldn't it evolve before? Evolution is undirected and purposeless; it's not "trying" to solve melatonin so there's no reason it would happen more often after than before.

  51. Re:Something broken doesn't mean evolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Translation: I redefine words and create psueodscience and then prove that the bullshit that I just made up is false... color us unimpressed.

  52. Re:Something broken doesn't mean evolution by Nidi62 · · Score: 1

    These mutations dont show evolution (things breaking dont show "Goo to you via zoo" evolution)

    Who are you to say it is broken? If anything, it would be the ones who don't change that are broken, because they die without the adaptation. It is letting them survive in an area that other things can't. By definition, that would be working, not breaking. If a mutation gives rise to a new population that is identifiably different from another species, that is evolution. The classic example is the finches. Different species of finches evolved with different beak structures that best fit their environment.

    And your car analogy is horrible. A broken window causing you to drive slower in a snowy area is not evolution. Now, a car that is sold with snow tires as standard in a snowy area would be. The exact same car in a warm, but wet environment may come with rain tires. Both of these models were adapted from an original model with regular tires, ie. they evolved to fit the surroundings where they will be used.

    --
    The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
  53. Re:Something broken doesn't mean evolution by tomhudson · · Score: 1

    Species: are creatures who dont bread with each other

    So, loganberries (a cross between blackberries and raspberries) doesn't exist. Neither do peppermint, tangeloes (even though they've been around for thousands of years), grapefruits, triticale (wheat+rye), durum wheat (oh well, guess all that pasta is fake after all), grizzly+polar bear hybrids, sheep (54 chromosomes)+goat (60 chromosomes) hybrids, wild horse(66 chromosomes)+domestic horse(64 chromosomes) hybrids, beefalo, coydogs, coywolves, wolfdogs, mules, hinnies, zebroids, wholphins (dolphin+false killer whale), blynx, and wolves with black pelts (from breeding with dogs).

    As for your contention that wolves had all the information necessary to create dogs, that's false. While all dogs today are descended from grey wolves, there were 4 different gene clade mutation events that gave rise to the domestic dog, starting with one ~40k-130k years ago. Breeding 2 wolves doesn't ever create a chihuahua.

    Pics of ligon, tigon, leapon, zorse, zonkey, zony, etc

    Also, Dawkins is not a hard-core atheist.

  54. Re:Something broken doesn't mean evolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    there were 4 different gene clade mutation events that gave rise to the domestic dog, starting with one ~40k-130k years ago. Breeding 2 wolves doesn't ever create a chihuahua

    So breeding 2 wolves doesn't ever create a chihuahua ... unless there were 4 different gene clade mutation events, which there were, which is how we ended up with chihuahuas.

    I don't think you understand the phrase "doesn't ever".

  55. Re:Survival of the fittest, NOT evolution by AK+Marc · · Score: 1
    No, you are missing one clear step. Mutations must be introduced for there to be sufficient genetic variation to "evolve." Without mutation, there would be little variation and something that would kill off some would kill off all. Evolution requires mutation. Survival of the fittest doesn't. Mutation is one of the issues people argue about. We were created in God's image. So, are we in God's image now, or 10,000 years ago, before mutations? Or are mutations not happening and science is wrong and we are exactly the same as we were when God made the earth?

    Also, spontaneous evolution is an oxymoron.

    Just because you don't like a term doesn't mean the idea it represents is wrong. People becoming so scared their hair turned white is impossible, but does happen. Spontaneous evolution comes in the same. It's both impossible (as you point out), yet happens, as it did here. Further, depending on your definition of "spontaneous" it isn't impossible, but instead how *all* evolution comes about.

  56. Re:Survival of the fittest, NOT evolution by SJHillman · · Score: 1

    Mutations leading to evolution can be what creates the fittest. The two are not mutually exclusive terms. You could easily argue that survival of the fittest is one key attribute to evolution which is the result of (some) mutations. As for being in God's image... I don't subscribe to that particular newsletter so I won't comment on it.

    Also, I'm unclear on your entire comment of how things that are impossible are true. Citations? I have never heard of someone's hair turning white as a result of being scared. As for spontaneous evolution being an oxymoron... that doesn't mean its impossible, just that the two words have opposite meanings. Spontaneous in this case is generally taken to mean quickly or instantly. Evolution on the other hand is generally defined as a slow change over time (as opposed to revolution).

  57. Re:Something broken doesn't mean evolution by tomhudson · · Score: 1
    After the first event, the "wolf" was no longer a wolf. You might want to think about that for a bit, because YOU don't understand the phrase "clade mutation event" and what it implies. A clade is a branch. A clade mutation event means the branch mutated.

    HTH

  58. Re:Something broken doesn't mean evolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You're right, I didn't have the slightest idea what "clade" meant, but that doesn't invalidate my point.

    Someone who appears to know how involved the details of speciation shouldn't make generalizations such as "the 'wolf' was no longer a wolf". How do you define the point at which it was not a wolf? what is a "clade" mutation?

    (Google and wikipedia don't seem to help.)

  59. That makes no sense by RobinEggs · · Score: 1

    Nothing presently suggests that any of these fish will accumulate more PCB simply because they're resistant to its toxic effects, and thus predators will not learn to avoid them based on heightened PCB content. The Tomcod in particular will actually accumulate much less PCB, because the biochemical component with which it used to bind will simply let it pass.

    In fact, these resistances could be one of evolution's many double-edged swords: if the predators learn anything, it may be that they should eat these fish, because PCBs are very dangerous teratogens (they fuck up embryo development), and any prey containing less of those poisons could lead to higher levels of survival in the predators' offspring.

  60. They don't evolve by wonderboss · · Score: 1

    The are intelligently rev'ed.

    --
    more cowbell
  61. really? really? creationist view since Feb '11 by shovas · · Score: 1

    I've been reading the biblical creationist perspective on this since Feb 2011: Rapid tomcod ‘evolution by pollution’? Yeah, right and wrong.

    This is not the kind of "evolution" needed to evolve lower-order organisms into higher-order ones. In fact, a better description for this particular case is "develution"

    If you look close enough at any of these examples of evolution we keep hearing about, they're never the kind that molecules-to-man evolution requires.

    Try again

    --
    Selah.ca. Pause, and calmly think on that.
  62. Re:Survival of the fittest, NOT evolution by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

    I have never heard of someone's hair turning white as a result of being scared.

    http://lmgtfy.com/?q=hair+suddenly+turning+white

    Spontaneous in this case is generally taken to mean quickly or instantly. Evolution on the other hand is generally defined as a slow change over time (as opposed to revolution).

    I've never seen "slow" being a requirement in biological evolution until you posted it. I always thought of it as a description, not a requirement. I understand the word "evolution" requires slow, but the technical term of biological evolution was named for one thing, but vernacular word definition doesn't change a technical definition. "Broadband" is defined by the FCC in a manner directly contradictory to the technical definition use by electrical engineers for years before the FCC started getting seriously involved in 1996. Most fiber is not broadband, despite the FCC's definition to the contrary. Pretty much all wireless (including screaming-fast 9.6 kbps GSM modems) is EE "broadband", despite the FCC disagreeing. The FCC adopted a definition more close to the vernacular, and no matter how many people agree what speeds make "broadband", the EE definition will not change. The fact that the dictionary definition touches on biological evolution doesn't change the fact that it has no bearing on the actual biological evolution definition. And I think that's where you are getting tripped up. Biological evolution doesn't require "slow." But the dictionary definition one would use to contrast with "revolution" does require slow.

    Spontaneous evolution is simple if you just think about it. The actual evolution could have taken 1,000,000,000,000 years or more. But the sudden act that culls the non-evolved is immediate and instant, thus "evolving" the species suddenly (and in a real manner, as the genetic makeup in the species changes instantly and broadly).

  63. Re:Something broken doesn't mean evolution by tomhudson · · Score: 1
    The evolution of the grey wolf to the domestic dog was marked by 4 separate mutation events that created new branches. The grey wolves obviously continued to exist, but the new branches diverged from them with each mutation. The first mutation was between 40k and 130k years ago, the last (according to mitochondrial dna) was ~15k years ago, and gave rise to the animals that became our domesticated dogs. The intervening mutations (the "missing links") have since disappeared, having been out-competed over the long term, but their existence still show up in the dna record.

    There were certainly other mutations, same as in every species, that were not competitive even in the short run. The thing is, sometimes a mutation, such as the last one, coincides with a change in the environment, such as humans transitioning from hunter-gatherer to farmer-herder, so a mutation that allowed dogs to be less timid of humans than wolves are (if you've ever owned a wolf-dog cross you'd know what I mean), given the benefits of living with humans that are herders, would rapidly propagate.

    Wolves, coyotes, and dogs are very distinct. We had a coydog when I was a kid, and one of my current dogs is part wolf, and their behaviours are markedly different from "regular dogs".

  64. Let's leave Krishna out of this ... by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 1

    I hope I can convince you to relegate your "environmental karma" to the fiction department, where frankly all such nonsense belongs. Karma has a (very) dark side, the caste system. But that's entirely beside the point. "Environmental karma" is bogus because :

    Your extinction theories are not how evolution works, except in a rudimentary absolutist pre-20th century understanding perhaps. So let's this time include theories from the 20th century (imagine that, biology did not stop evolving after Darwin ...). Here's the idea of what happens if a predator eats PCB infected fish.

    A population of predators eats a population of PCB resistant fish. Some of the fish will be infected with a virus. Some of the virusses inside the fish will have copied the resistant version of the gene into the viral DNA. Happens all the time. In practice every lifeform is constantly infected with hundreds of different viruses, so this is not as unlikely as you would think.

    Some of the predators will get infected with the fish. Some of the female predators will get their eggs infected, some of the males their balls (or equivalent ...). BTW: it's usually the males that get their eggs ("sperma") infected. Look up how it works, and it will be obvious why. These fish, with the "infected" genes, being ever so slightly more active (evolution massacres entire races because they're 1% worse performers in a matter of a dozen generations, sometimes faster) take over the entire population. For fish, with generation lengths of at most 1 year, mostly less than that, we're talking a decade or less.

    Does that satisfy you ? We *cannot* kill any significant part of nature. No matter how hard we try to do so. Nor can Krishna relegate "evil" species to dalit status and make slaves out of them, so you can you please not scare people with such eventualities ?

    That species expansion only happens if natural barriers go up. Global transport is the real cause of species extinction'. The fact that people and goods move to all regions of this planet, bringing new diseases, new rodents, cats, dogs, and sometimes even new predators to all remote regions of this planet, where they proceed to destroy the local fauna that never evolved a defense against them. We're connecting the islands, google "island species".

    The parties the most responsible for species extinction are probably the British empire, the east-india trading company and the Spanish kingdom. Remember : species' diversity loss is not exactly a recent problem.

    It's not oil, it's not poison, it's not heavy metals (not even the music), it's not co2, it's not rising sea level, it's none of those things. It's tourism, discoveries and transport, and it doesn't matter *at all* whether said tourism happened by unpowered sailing ships, or kerosene-spewing 747's. You want to save species and races (including the diversity in human races) ?. Destroy tourism. Destroy international trade. Destroy *every* long distance interaction you can think of, first and most important in things to destroy would probably be the internet.

    You want to save species diversity ? Break the connection, restore the islands. (read up a bit on island species on google and you will understand what this means). If this is not done, expect one human race to become utterly dominant (> 90% of the population) in at least 99 human species that didn't make it. For most animal and plant species this number will be far, far higher. The vast majority of species created by evolution ... lose. Link the habitats, even for memes, and where there used to be 300 countries and, for example, languages, there will remain only one. Every Western European, from Swedish kids, to Italian infants speak English, it's only a matter of time till they decide that's the easiest way to communicate. The only languages that seem to be pushing back are French and Chinese. Please remember that there are currently 394 lan

    1. Re:Let's leave Krishna out of this ... by shentino · · Score: 1

      mod parent up

  65. Refs? by G3ckoG33k · · Score: 2

    "there are intentional mechanisms built into the DNA pathways that deliberately cause genetic mutations during stress events"

    While that sounds very unorthodox I may be wrong.

    Do you have any reference to support this? Or is it wishful thinking? ;)

    It would really help to see some references.

  66. Check Jonathan Falcon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Check Jonathan Falcon. His penumbra is royal, to say the least, and as such indicative of Rasputin's piercing powers.

  67. RIP Karl Popper by Kupfernigk · · Score: 2
    Agreeing with you 100%, I note that the world is full of people who don't understand Karl Popper. They do not understand the difference between falsifying an hypothesis (Popper) and falsifying a theory.

    Falsifying the Newtonian (implied) hypothesis that spacetime was flat merely added a correction term into the Newtonian laws of motion. Falsifying the theory of phlogiston was a major first step to modern chemistry. The GP is confused as to the difference. Nobody bothers to try to "disprove" Newtonian mechanics when designing a car, because they are a good enough truth for almost all terrestrial engineering. Whereas anyone who doesn't try to disprove the Phlogiston model won't get far with chemical engineering.

    Evolution is very definitely in Newtonian mechanics territory; no biochemist, drugs researcher or animal breeder is ever going to fail in their goals through a blind belief in evolution, no matter how complicated the details become at the molecular and ecosystem level.

    --
    From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
  68. Infinite regress, in fact by Kupfernigk · · Score: 1
    If God was the Big Banger, who created her? And so ad infinitum.

    Incidentally, if you ever happen to spend time with some real theologians, rather than Bible-addled thumpers, they will be among the first to point out the infinite regress in the idea that the Universe came into being through the agency of a "God". The really big philosophical question is "why is there anything at all", and "God did it" cannot be the answer because the next question is "Why is there anything at all, including the God you just postulated?".

    For some modern theologians, the other big question is "where do concepts like truth and justice come from?". (Philosophers may claim ownership of these problems too).

    Do they matter? If you are concerned about the kind of society you inhabit, I think they do.

    --
    From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
    1. Re:Infinite regress, in fact by tomhudson · · Score: 1

      That's why the bible-thumpers *hate* the Jesuits :-)

      I have no objection to people believing whatever superstitions they want, provided it doesn't hurt someone else, and that they don't claim that it has any sort of basis in reality (want to really p*ss them off when they try to point to some sort of "evidence"? Ask them why they are even looking for such evidence if it's supposed to be "sola fide" - by faith only - after all, that whole exercise undermines the "by faith alone" principle, and anyone they convince by such "proof" is not "justified by faith alone", so they're really leading them into sin).

      Of course, the majority of fundamentalist PASTORS have never read the whole bible, so you may have to educate them.

  69. Old... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is an extremely old study (or rather observation). Completely outdated and not worthy of topic for discussion.

  70. Toxin Immune Killerfish? by residieu · · Score: 1

    Why the killifish survive is a mystery

    We've got Killerfish resisting all our efforts to kill them, defying scientific explanation. This is the start of the fish takeover! Take to the high ground!

  71. Re:Something broken doesn't mean evolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The point was, and still is, that dogs are just all of the DNA that wolves had, with a few mutations specific to the domestic dog. Different breeds are inbred to different degrees. I've heard that poodles are the worst (expensive due to being sickly and having other genetic issues). It wouldn't surprise me.

  72. Re:Something broken doesn't mean evolution by tomhudson · · Score: 1

    And humans are just cockroaches with a few mutations specific to humans.

    Those "few specific mutations" make a lot of difference, both in appearance, and in basic functions such as how often they come into heat. Wolves, once a year. Dogs ... normally twice a year, but they can come into heat pretty much any time. Wolves pair bond, dogs don't. Wolves generally don't do incest ... dogs, they're dogs, they'll screw anything, including your leg, given a chance.

  73. Ding-dong, you're wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is adaptation, not evolution. Whoever wrote that headline should have paid more attention in science class.