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Did Fracking Cause Recent Oklahoma Earthquakes?

Hugh Pickens writes writes "Oklahoma is typically seismically stable, with about 50 small quakes a year — but in 2009, that number jumped up to more than 1,000 and on November 5 a 5.6-magnitude tremor rattled Oklahoma — one of the strongest to ever hit the state — leading scientists to wonder if the increasingly common use of fracking, the controversial practice of blasting underground rock formations with high-pressure water, sand, and chemicals to extract natural gas, may have put stress on fault lines. Human intervention has caused earthquakes before with one 'textbook case' occurring in 1967 in India, says Peter Fairley at IEEE Spectrum, when the reservoir behind the hydroelectric Koyna Dam was filled up. The added water 'unleashed a magnitude 6.3 quake' by placing stress 'on a previously unknown fault, killing 180 people and leaving thousands homeless.' Last week's earthquakes and aftershocks are centered in rural Lincoln County, in an area about 30 miles east of Oklahoma City and there are 181 injection wells In Lincoln County. But a recent study by Austin Holland, a seismologist with the Oklahoma Geological Survey, says that it's possible that hydraulic fracking caused a series of small earthquakes, peaking at 2.8, in an area south of Oklahoma City but doesn't believe fracking caused the big Nov. 5, 6 and 8 earthquakes comparing a man-made earthquake to a mosquito bite. 'It's really quite inconsequential,' says Holland."

71 of 288 comments (clear)

  1. No. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    It was global warming.

    1. Re:No. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      We just need to start living in bouncy castles instead of inflexible, tends-to-break-apart-into-heavy-and-sharp-things houses.

    2. Re:No. by rtb61 · · Score: 2

      The problem is new earthquakes, create new fault lines. Those fault often reach the surface. So toxic chemicals at pressure can now readily escape to surface and of course pollute ground water tables on the way.

      Pretty much expect a fair portion of water wells to become polluted over the next decade and remain that way for centuries to come. Hope that methane burnt today made up for poisoning generations to come and just let me guess who gets today's profits and who gets tomorrow's costs.

      So the chuckle heads paid of by fossil fuellers can laugh it off because they are paid too but it's the redneck's children and grandchildren who will be paying the real price, meh, evolution in action and those idiots can pray for cure from drinking polluted waters.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
  2. Oh frak, by asdf7890 · · Score: 2, Funny

    It was all Starbuck's sweary mouth fault!

  3. Probably. by amalek · · Score: 4, Informative
    1. Re:Probably. by imamac · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Most of the news around here (Oklahoma) is saying probably not. The seismologists that have been on are saying that, while the earthquakes were shallow, they were still far too deep to be caused by fracking.

    2. Re:Probably. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I guess I'm not sure how anyone is ruling out the possibility of a cumulative effect from the minor (2.8 and under) earthquakes, which we are being told can be caused by fracking, putting stress on the fault line. Is that really not possible?

    3. Re:Probably. by hawguy · · Score: 5, Informative

      Most of the news around here (Oklahoma) is saying probably not. The seismologists that have been on are saying that, while the earthquakes were shallow, they were still far too deep to be caused by fracking.

      Hmm...the big Oklahoma quake was 3.1 miles deep (the smaller quakes leading up to it were around 2.5 - 3.5 miles deep). Fracking wells are typically 1 to 4 miles deep.

      The Woodford shale formation under Oklahoma ranges from 5000 - 12000 feet. (around 1 to 2.25 miles)

      Sounds like it's in the same ballpark, I'm not saying that the fracking and earthquakes are definitely related, but I wouldn't call the quake "far too deep" to have resulted from fracking.

    4. Re:Probably. by GodInHell · · Score: 4, Informative

      Think of the deep strata as a series of huge boulders and sets of rock formation lying atop one another -- like a big dry masonry wall. At first the surface pressure only creates small releases, a rock high up the formation shifts slightly or cracks releasing pressure. Some of that pressure is immediately released in the form of a tremor, the rest remains as potential energy. Now the weight of that stone which had been held up (in part) by an arch or lintel farther up the structure is putting pressure directly down onto the lower surfaces. Not only that, but the shift has changed the entire structural dynamic of the earth -- suddenly hundreds of small stress points and load-bearing surfaces bear down onto a smaller and smaller area -- or rest on a long wide surface -- when that fault shifts or cracks the combined potential energy trapped in all the mass weighing on the fault is released.

      So, it depends -- if the small quakes were all caused by a single fault shifting, then yes breaking that motion up into a series of smaller movements means there is less potential energy in the position of the strata around the fault -- if, however, the smaller quakes are movement on other faults or the impact of rock settling into the gaps and pockets once occupied by natural gas under pressure -- then you might just be loading up the weight on that big fault creating a higher potential for a big movement.

      -GiH

    5. Re:Probably. by GodInHell · · Score: 2

      Also -- it could be a random act of randomness. Those happen a lot as well.

    6. Re:Probably. by Matheus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It seems a lot of people aren't RTF(ull)A...

      The only scientist to say what the summary indicates has said that Frakking wasn't the cause of the *Big earthquake they had. He even admits it was possibly at fault for the many small earthquakes that have plagued the area in the past couple years. Also: most of the scientists who are investigating the big earthquake (as well as the small ones) are pointing more to the high pressure injection well process that is used to dispose of the waste fluids from frakking than the frakking itself. They have seen this process be responsible for large tremors in the past and so are investigating the possibility here. Note: They have not claimed fault yet. They are in the middle of what could be a very long (years) investigation as to the true cause of the tremors. They have only mentioned that the severe increase in small tremors and this extremely rare large tremor may be the result of the recent increase/presence of frakking and injection well activity near the faults.

      There is also scientific evidence that the fracking itself causes earthquakes, but nothing of the size of what happened in Oklahoma last weekend. A recent study by seismologist Austin Holland, a seismologist with the Oklahoma Geological Survey, said that it’s possible that hydraulic fracking caused a series of small earthquakes, peaking at 2.8, in an area south of Oklahoma City earlier this year. When lots of liquid is injected into the ground it changes the stress and pressure in a place that probably already was a fault, Holland said. It’s similar to injecting water between two adjacent bricks, it allows them to slide more easily and "the water under pressure is helping push the bricks apart ever so slightly," Holland said.
      But Holland doesn’t believe fracking caused the big Nov. 5, 6 and 8 earthquakes. He compared a man-made earthquake to a mosquito bite.

      Bad Summary on both the /. side and the original article. The real information is so much more interesting.

    7. Re:Probably. by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 4, Informative

      What is "Fracking"? Well, it's the tunneling down in to the ground to extract natural gas.

      Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

    8. Re:Probably. by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What is "Fracking"? Well, it's the tunneling down in to the ground to extract natural gas. Tunneling leaves a hole, so if Fracking did not cause the earth quake, then the tunnels should be still there?

      1) That's not what fracking is.

      2) Even it it were, "if the earthquake were not caused by fracking, all natural gas wells would still be in place undamaged" does not logically follow. Nor does the converse, by the by.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    9. Re:Probably. by tacokill · · Score: 2

      First of all, the "show me state" is Missouri you goofball. Don't you know that Oklahoma is just OK? It's where the wind comes sweeping down the plains....

      Since Oklahoma has been an oil/gas player for a long time, I'd argue that it has had more 3D seismic graphing than any other state, sans Texas. I am quite sure the radar images you are asking for are "out there", although I highly doubt you will be given access to them (because they are privately owned).

      Oh, and fracking isn't drilling holes to get the natty gas. Fracking is shorthand for Hydraulic Fracturing. I will assume you know how to google from here....

    10. Re:Probably. by GodInHell · · Score: 2

      Thought experiment -- imagine a church wall supported above an arch. Take a big sledge hammer and apply 600 lbs of force to the keystone (assume this is enough to either knock out the keystone or fracture it). Your hammer is the little quake. What happens next is the release of all the potential energy the keystone was keeping in place.

      It's not like the little quakes add force equal to their energy to the fault -- the weight that shifts down onto the larger fault is the source of energy. It takes much less energy to shift some of that force around than the total potential energy stored in the positioning of those structures.

      As to why you would blame fraking: (a) it is actively happening in and around Oklahoma, (b) it has been tied to a number of smaller quakes, including the recent quake in England, and is suspected to be the source of the smaller local quakes, (c) who said anything about blame?

      -GiH

    11. Re:Probably. by hairyfeet · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Well all I can give is my little anecdote, but I have a friend that develops models and presentations for the NG wildcatters in Northwest AR and the map he showed me made me think Frakking? not such a good idea. He laid out a map on the screen of every place the bunch he had been working for was frakking then he laid over it a map from the local college's seismographic monitoring stations and what they had picked up and every single site they frakked had 2.8 or better earthquakes within 6 months of the start of frakking. And the area they were frakking is solid bedrock and shale, it just doesn't get earthquakes. he showed me the recorded data of that area going back to 1947 (when the college first started monitoring and collecting data) and they averaged maybe one a decade, now it is closer to one a month!

      Frankly if the wildcatters elsewhere are like the ones here We, the People will get stuck cleaning up their messes anyway as they have a nice scam going. they have a shell corp set up which they lease ALL the assets from, from mineral rights to drilling equipment, right down to the office furniture. They hit a couple of dry wells or make a mess and the bills start piling up? They just burn the original corp by filing bankruptcy and make a new corp to lease the equipment from. I've already seen a couple pull that scam locally and skip town owing quite a large sum of money.

      So as usual in the Corporate States of Amerika whether it turns out to be frakking or not it doesn't matter, as i'm sure by the time they get done we'll have several nice ecological messes that we the taxpayer gets to pick up the tab for while they cash out and move on to the next scam.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    12. Re:Probably. by steppedleader · · Score: 2

      Earthquakes, especially those above M4.5, are surely very energetic events. Unless fracking is an extremely high energy process and is done in such a way as to deposit that energy into the fault line, it is next to impossible that the any of the quakes due to fracking would move the fault line significant away from its equilibrium position. Natural earthquakes should move the originating fault toward its equilibrium, and it would take a heck of lot of energy to drive that process backwards.

      I suppose it is possible that small earthquakes could lead to larger ones, however, through this mechanism: I doubt we know how far from its equilibrium point the fault line is. Its configuration may be such that as it naturally settles towards that equilibrium, it will at some times have strong earthquakes and at times have weak earthquakes. Essentially, a fault's natural d[fault position]/dt function may not be constant. Sometimes it will move faster than others. It thus seems possible that fracking may push a fault out of a weak, rare earthquake regime into a strong, common quake regime. If that is the case I hope no one messes around with a big fault like the San Andreas.

  4. More Data by Sponge+Bath · · Score: 5, Funny

    I lived in Lawton, Oklahoma for a few months. I can't think of a better place to experiment with fracking and earthquakes. Let's go do some science!

    1. Re:More Data by SgtChaireBourne · · Score: 5, Insightful

      While we're at it, let's have more data about which chemicals are being injected. They will eventually turn up in the water table through Murphy's law.

      --
      Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
    2. Re:More Data by AHuxley · · Score: 3
      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  5. dumbass by spidercoz · · Score: 2, Funny

    If you get 181 mosquito bites in the same 1-square inch of skin, what do you think will happen?

    --
    "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Evelyn Beatrice Hall, re Voltaire
    1. Re:dumbass by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      You'll get a nasty rash, possibly some nasty disease, and people will laugh at you for not getting insect repellent and being a mosquito magnet.

    2. Re:dumbass by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you get 181 mosquito bites in the same 1-square inch of skin, what do you think will happen?

      That rebuttal would make sense if he had said that each injection well equated to a mosquito bite. He didn't.

    3. Re:dumbass by GameboyRMH · · Score: 3, Funny

      I can confirm this.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  6. Statistics Please! by MozeeToby · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Instead of an endless stream of anecdotes can someone please do some statistics. Number of quakes within X miles of all fracking sites since fracking began versus number of quakes within X miles of all fracking sites in the years before fracking began. I'm sure it won't be pleasant to gather all the numbers, but there are dozens of places where fracking is being used, I can't imagine we don't have enough data by now to discover if there are some basic trends or not.

    1. Re:Statistics Please! by Overzeetop · · Score: 2

      You would think there would be data, but until someone suggests a correlation it's unlikely that the research exists. It certainly isn't in the interest of the extraction companies to find a link, and when you send somebody looking for something you don't want them to find, any evidence (even unrelated) is damning.

      There was talk about this when the Virginia earthquake hit earlier this summer, too. It's the largest since 1897, and not on a particularly well-known fault (like the Narrows fault where the 1897 EQ hit).

      Don't know if there's any correlation, but since USGS tracks these things, the data should be available from the EQ side - just need to time correlate it to when/where extraction operations occurred.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    2. Re:Statistics Please! by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Instead of an endless stream of anecdotes can someone please do some statistics. Number of quakes within X miles of all fracking sites since fracking began versus number of quakes within X miles of all fracking sites in the years before fracking began. I'm sure it won't be pleasant to gather all the numbers, but there are dozens of places where fracking is being used, I can't imagine we don't have enough data by now to discover if there are some basic trends or not.

      That's not really going to tell you much - what you really need is historical seismic data. Generally speaking, you'd expect a lot of small seismic activity temporally centered around a larger event. So what you really need to know is - does the pattern of seismic activity prior to this quake differ substantially from the activity observed prior to other historical quakes in the same area?

      With fracking being such a recent practice, and given that eastern US earthquakes tend to effect a relatively large area thanks to the geology of the region... just looking at recent trends could very well be misleading.

      Unfortunately the midwest is rather stable geologically, so there's likely not enough data points to allow one to draw a conclusion with any expectation of certainty.

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    3. Re:Statistics Please! by MozeeToby · · Score: 2

      What do you need their cooperation for? They have fill out paperwork with the EPA before they can begin fracking at a given location and they aren't in charge of maintaining seismology records last time I checked. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that all the information needed to do a baseline study is public domain, available from one public database or another if you knew where to look.

    4. Re:Statistics Please! by Luckyo · · Score: 4, Informative

      You need their cooperation to survive the massive anti-you lobby they will put out. Source: tobacco industry and decades it took for poor bastards trying to study tobacco's adverse effects on health to shake off "sharlatan"-image slapped on them by the said industry.

      On the other hand it's actually pretty interesting that we as humans are getting skilled and powerful enough to affect planet in ways that causes earthquakes without having to blow stuff up underground. We've done it with geothermal and apparently this at the very least.

    5. Re:Statistics Please! by tacokill · · Score: 2

      The EPA has been all but dismantled by the last few administrations.
      Are you serious? I about choked when I read your post. If anything, the EPA has only INCREASED it's power over the last 30 years. Here, look for yourself at the budget numbers. Note, this doesn't even consider the increased regulatory power they have by issuing new rules, edicts, etc.

      Methinks you are a little too mired in the day to day of politics to notice but the EPA has been growing and getting more powerful over the last 3 decades. Like all of government.....

  7. Smaller earthquakes are better by Kohath · · Score: 4, Interesting

    What if it did? Earthquakes can't be avoided. The longer that seismic pressure builds, the bigger the quake. Relieving this pressure early by causing minor quakes should help avoid massive, deadly earthquakes in the future.

    1. Re:Smaller earthquakes are better by pclminion · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That makes about as much sense as snorting a bunch of coke to determine whether you might have latent heart problems.

    2. Re:Smaller earthquakes are better by Kohath · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually, it does. Snorting coke didn't cause the heart condition. If I have a latent heart problem, it's in my interest to find out when I'm young and healthy so I can survive the first event. Then I can manage the condition to live a long life rather than dropping dead at 46 years old.

      I think "exercise" is more analogous than "snorting coke", but whatever...

    3. Re:Smaller earthquakes are better by blueg3 · · Score: 2

      That's only true if the fracking is triggering an earthquake that is powered by already-built-up stress. This is actually asking whether fracking is causing additional stress that eventually leads to earthquakes. Adding stress does not, in fact, make earthquakes less serious.

    4. Re:Smaller earthquakes are better by pclminion · · Score: 2

      You're assuming you'll survive the first event. Maybe you'd die at 46, but dying at 26 is worse.

    5. Re:Smaller earthquakes are better by jeffmeden · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Your argument (and that of many other commenters in this thread) would make sense if all earthquakes were caused by slip-fault activity and are therefore unavoidable/inevitable so long as there is tension between plates. That is simply not the case. It is perfectly possible (but no one really knows) that the process used in hydraulic fracturing (a lot easier of a term to use with a straight face than 'Fracking') is altering the crust in a way nothing else would, and hence is generating earthquakes that otherwise would never have existed in the first place.

    6. Re:Smaller earthquakes are better by spidr_mnky · · Score: 3, Funny

      So, unless Oklahoma is in unrecoverable ruins, that's Kohath: 1, pclminion: 0.

  8. Re:A BSG fan may ask... by Totenglocke · · Score: 4, Funny

    Just one - it's just that Starbuck fracks so hard, she'll literally rock your world.

    --
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
  9. Have to keep watching by chipperdog · · Score: 2

    If North Dakota starts seeing earthquakes (they are in the center of the North American plate), then we know that fracking has something to do with it....Of course the petrochemical, and petrochemical funded industries will do studies to find no connection...

  10. Butterfly Effect by blair1q · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The Butterfly Effect is described in terms of weather systems, where it's total bullshit.

    But here, not so much. The ground under us is full of cracks that have stopped moving because they're caught on something. Break that something, and you unleash a quake. If the reason the crack can't produce enough force is because there's another, smaller thing they're caught on, too, then all you have to do is break that smaller thing to allow the bigger thing to feel enough stress to be broken.

    And so on.

    As I said, this is bullshit in the atmosphere, where violence is the result of concentration of energy from the movement of thousands or millions of cubic kilometers of atmosphere into a vortex in their midst, something a butterfly can have no bearing on. But underground these chains of critical stability are all over the place. Just look at the NEIC's map and see them letting go daily. And each time one lets go, it changes the criticality of another, or of another part of itself.

    Fracking certainly could be the causative factor in the initiation of a chain of releases that result in a larger release. The fact that there are smaller quakes means that of course they could be releasing the crack to bear on a major sticking point with more force than before, and certainly could lead to a larger quake.

    Any seismologist who discounts this possibility is suspect.

    1. Re:Butterfly Effect by khallow · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The Butterfly Effect is described in terms of weather systems, where it's total bullshit.

      The "Butterfly Effect" is simply that even minute changes in a chaotic system, such as the weather, can result in large changes far enough down the road. Saying it can't matter is incorrect.

      As one of the AC's mentioned, you're speaking of some sort of "snowball effect".

      Any seismologist who discounts this possibility is suspect.

      I imagine we'll have to measure geological properties such as stress and strain on a newly developed fracking field to see how things change. It might be a bit costly to do, but capital layout is probably not that significant.

    2. Re:Butterfly Effect by blair1q · · Score: 3, Informative

      Except that the atmosphere doesn't work that way. It ignores small disturbances, dissipating them rather than concentrating them. In order for a tornado to form that causes damage to a 5-10 square mile footprint along its path, the atmosphere has to coalesce the rotational energy from a mesocyclone tens or hundreds of miles across, and to form that required days worth of planning by the sun and the jet stream. There's no supercritical point where the atmosphere can be kicked between tornado and not-tornado by any input that's much smaller than the tornado itself. Getting a hurricane to happen is an even bigger proposition. The difference caused by a 1-degree change in the surface temperature of the Atlantic Ocean (and how much energy is that?) is only enough to maybe change the hurricane from one category to another. A butterfly at full gallop is certainly not going to be the difference between a hurricane and a breezy day.

      The linking of butterflies to even hypothetical weather changes is fanciful ignorance.

    3. Re:Butterfly Effect by The+Askylist · · Score: 2
      You obviously misunderstand what the butterfly metaphor is supposed to show.

      .

      It's not about causing a tipping point - it is simply an inherent property of the equations that govern all sorts of things from hurricane formation to audio feedback that tiny variations in initial conditions can cause great variations in outcome further down the line. So there is no implication that a butterfly flapping its wings can cause a hurricane, but there is a statement of fact that given two sets of initial conditions, one with butterfly and one without, the evolution of the system can diverge very rapidly given positive feedback in the system.

      The metaphor obviously isn't very helpful, since it has led you to misunderstand its meaning.

    4. Re:Butterfly Effect by Raenex · · Score: 2

      In a chaotic system, any minor change can result in a big change after a period of time. The butterfly effect is not "utter bollocks". That you described it as such in a weather system is particularly egregious, since that is where the term originated and is accepted mainstream science.

      You can read the Wikipedia page and cite a counter-source if you disagree.

  11. Top 5 Ways to Cause a Man-Made Earthquake by G3ckoG33k · · Score: 5, Interesting

    http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/06/top-5-ways-that/

    As close i got get on short notice. I posted this two years ago IIRC

  12. Stupid Media. by jellomizer · · Score: 2

    Conservative Media: Fracking is perfectly safe, everyone should allow this in their back yard, if you don't have it in your back yard then you are letting the terrorist win.
    Liberal Media: Fracking is horrible, it pollutes all your drinking water, causes earthquakes, and eats puppies.

    Like all forms of energy extraction there are economic trade-offs that must happen. Fracking a newer technology is much cleaner then other methods but it isn't 100% clean or safe. Yes it could cause issues with underground wells, but it doesn't always. It is one of those things you need to monitor while you are doing it. And make sure if it does pollute your drinking water the Fracking company has insurances that will provide the residence with clean water for as long as their water tables are polluted.

    Heck when I was growing up. They built a housing development with a huge water tower. And what happened after they started drilling our own water became much heavier and contained more surfer. Yes there is an impact. But compared to the alternatives it is better the other ones are.

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    1. Re:Stupid Media. by blair1q · · Score: 3

      Like all forms of energy extraction there are economic trade-offs that must happen.

      And the general form of this is: "ignore the problem until after we're filthy rich from selling energy to the consumers, then walk away and let the government (i.e., the consumers) pay to clean it up."

      If the people causing the problems had to pay to fix them, most energy extraction wouldn't be done.

      Which would be the correct choice, unless you're the greedhead who stands to become a rich greedhead in the process.

    2. Re:Stupid Media. by Oswald+McWeany · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Absolutely- and I wish people would realise this.

      It appears mostly cleaner than other forms of energy retrieval- certainly much cleaner than coal and less environmental damage than moving mountain tops around.

      It is something that needs to be monitored- and from what I understand the use of toxic chemicals is not required- there are non-toxic equivalents that may cost a little more... USE THEM.

      Regulate the industry- don't just kill it outright.

      I'm also curious specifically on the drinking water pollution- something we should watch. Some people have detected elevated levels of methane in their water around fracking sites. I'm curious how much of this is really from fracking and how much is due to the fact that they only frack in places where there is methane in the ground anyway.

      Sure you're going to find more methane in areas around fracking sites than elsewhere... that's why they are fracking there in the first place.

      Please proceed with fracking- but have independent review and make sure shotcuts arn't taken. Make sure we watch all the time and take every precaution not to make a "deepwater" mistake. This is potentially a great way to get "relatively" clean power.

      --
      "That's the way to do it" - Punch
  13. Petro Engineer's POV by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I am or was a petroleum engineer, and I can tell you that yes it's entirely possible for subsurface oil and gas operations to affect fault lines and cause seismic events like those described.

    With that being said, I think there is also a lot of FUD surrounding the practice of fracing. Fracing is not particularly new to the Oil and Gas industry, and there are a lot of Oil and Gas operations that cause environmental and seismic problems, not just fracing.

    I feel like people have sort of jumped on to this Fracing thing, because of the "Gasland" documentary. And now they have some "evil" practice to blame the Oil and Gas companies for, but in reality I think it is a little more complicated than that. We have found trillions of cubic feet of natural gas reserves that can be released through fracing, and this has a major implications for domestic energy production and the US economy.

    1. Re:Petro Engineer's POV by blair1q · · Score: 2

      I'm pretty sure that the ChemE's who figure this stuff out already know that their only other solution is to drill a bazillion wells, and that such a system is simply more energy than they can retrieve.

      Whereas fracking is quick, dirty, cheap, and profitable, and the law and human nature are such that they can get away with it well enough to pay it off, even if a bunch of rednecks blow 'emselves up real good just watering the lawn.

      It may never be reasonable to retrieve some energy trapped in the Earth's crust without killing folks.

      So the reasonable thing to do, at least from my perspective, is to leave it there. Others of course will think otherwise, but their reasoning somehow decides that human life isn't worth as much as cheap BBQ.

  14. Re:A BSG fan may ask... by Mister+Whirly · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Actually, a real Battlestar Galactica fan knows Starbuck was a cocky male, not a hot female. You must be speaking of the remake.

    --
    "But this one goes to 11!"
  15. I'd believe it... by iMouse · · Score: 2

    Call it a coincidence, but the Youngstown, Ohio area has never had regular earthquakes. We'd be lucky to have a noticeable earthquake once every 2-3 years. Since fracking began in this area, we've had 7 earthquakes since March 2011! Three of those earthquakes were felt by a large number of the locals with the other 4 only going somewhat noticed.

    These earthquakes are in the 2.x magnitude, causing very little to no damage, but how can these experts ignore anomalies like this?

    http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/geosurvey/html/eq_archv/tabid/8304/Default.aspx

    Lake Erie has a lot of underground salt mining operations in place, hence why you'll see a whole lot of reports of earthquakes in the Erie area.

  16. 1960's Denver is the textbook case by michaelmalak · · Score: 4, Informative

    Rocky Mountain Arsenal, bordering the city limits of Denver, tried disposing of liquid waste by injecting it 12,000 feet below the ground. The result was a series of damaging earthquakes in Denver, up to 5.0 - 5.5 magnitude. USGS wrote a report in 1990.

    The Victorian warehouse at 1000 Bannock still shows steel L-braces affixed to the exterior to hold the brick building together from the 1967 earthquake damage -- notice also the long crack running clear through from the back wall diagonally up to the roof.

    1. Re:1960's Denver is the textbook case by smellsofbikes · · Score: 2

      Rocky Mountain Arsenal, bordering the city limits of Denver, tried disposing of liquid waste by injecting it 12,000 feet below the ground. The result was a series of damaging earthquakes in Denver, up to 5.0 - 5.5 magnitude. USGS wrote a report in 1990.

      The Victorian warehouse at 1000 Bannock still shows steel L-braces affixed to the exterior to hold the brick building together from the 1967 earthquake damage -- notice also the long crack running clear through from the back wall diagonally up to the roof.

      It wasn't just Denver. I was living in Leadville, CO at the time and some friends had a hobby mine that went into an old fault line. Gold concentrates where there are breaks in the rock because that's where the water moves. When those earthquakes started, the latter third of their mine collapsed (because it was into looser rock adjacent to the fault line). The first time they were like what? and dug it back out and started shoring it, and then the second one hit, and then the third... and they were completely freaked out because the earthquakes were happening on a very regular basis, since the deep well injection dumps were being done on like the third friday of the month, and the earthquakes were happening like half a day later, so they were having earthquakes on the third saturday of each month. Pretty weird. That ended up with them abandoning that mine, although once the Rocky Mountain News started writing articles about the connection between the Arsenal and the earthquakes, they stopped pumping crap down through the water table into the underlying rock.

      --
      Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
  17. Live in Oklahoma, work around the industry.... by tacokill · · Score: 5, Informative

    Not only do I live in Oklahoma but my work bumps up against the energy/hydrocarbon industry. This is a subject that I know quite a bit about, in fact....

    The answer is: No, No, and No.

    For forever, Oklahoma has had small earthquakes like this. It is not uncommon as we sit on the Arkoma plate (little known fact: The Arbuckle mountains were the largest in the world....about 130 million yrs ago). I remember quakes as far back as I can remember and I can even remember the dumb local news outlets mistaking a B52 landing at night for yet another earthquake (circa 1991 or so). This is not a news story, rather, it is an opportunity for the anti-fracking crowd to push its agenda when the opportunity is ripe. Whether it has any basis in reality is quite a different question...

    The quakes were centered almost in the middle of the state. Unfortunately for the anti-fracking crowd, all of the fracking in the state is going on in the Woodford Shale, which is South / Southwest of where the quakes occured (by a lot). While earthquakes being caused by fracking cater to our common senses, there just isn't ANY evidence that the two are linked. And I mean in that statistical "causation" way. *NO* regulatory agency, body, or otherwise has indicated otherwise.

    Additionally, the Woodford shale deposit has been in active development for many many years. Fracking didn't just start there a few years ago. Try a decade or more.

    While I never say never, I will only say that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. And it's an extraordinary claim to suggest our fracking is starting earthquakes here in Oklahoma.

    1. Re:Live in Oklahoma, work around the industry.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I live in Northwestern Oklahoma, and currently work for a Oil and Natural Gas company who not only supplies but regularly uses fracking equipment. At present there are over 300 wells in northwestern Oklahoma that have been fracked in the past 2 years, and yet northwest Oklahoma has seen absolutely no change in seismic activity. And yes fracking is the standard in the US for natural gas well production, and has been for at least 6 years. Thank you for being sensible and knowledgeable on the subject, so few are on here.

    2. Re:Live in Oklahoma, work around the industry.... by ricky-road-flats · · Score: 3, Informative

      While earthquakes being caused by fracking cater to our common senses, there just isn't ANY evidence that the two are linked. And I mean in that statistical "causation" way. *NO* regulatory agency, body, or otherwise has indicated otherwise.

      Except HERE...

  18. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 4, Informative

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  19. Why now? Because its political by kick6 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I lived in Oklahoma and worked in the natural gas industry circa 2005. At that point we were already frac'ing every single natural gas well we drilled, and probably had been for a decade prior. Why NOW is it suddenly a problem? Oh that's right...because its a politcal issue. If there was any real science to support this frac=quake BS siesmologists would have been screaming about it a decade ago.

  20. Re:2009? by Abstrackt · · Score: 2, Funny

    It took two years to form a committee to figure out who to blame.

    --
    They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance. - Terry Pratchett
  21. Re:Semi-trucks by Pope · · Score: 2

    A million trucks would be twenty million tons of mass moving across the surface of the Earth. Easily within a single day we have ten million tons in motion.

    What do you think this is doing to the Earth's rotation?

    Absolutely nothing. Go back to Newtonian mechanics and do some reading, you don't have to report back. Here's a hint: the Earth's mass is over 6.6 sextillion tons.

    --
    It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
  22. Re:North Dakota Fracking by tacokill · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Agreed. Bakken Shale is very exciting and that area of the world is a perfect "test bed" for this hypothesis. The "interference" is negligible so a good set of data could be generated fairly easily -- and it would have meaning.

    Sidenote: North Dakota is printing more millionaires (by count) than anywhere else in the world right now. Yes, including China.

  23. Chaos in Mathematics by mx+b · · Score: 3, Informative

    The butterfly effect is a statement of chaos, which from a mathematical perspective is mostly described as "extreme sensitivity to conditions". In other words, using the same mathematical model and equation to predict weather a week from now, but with two different but very similar starting conditions (say, the temperature is 74 F vs 75 F one day, but all other conditions the same), after a sufficient amount of time, the two solutions (for each initial condition) to the equation, or predictions if you want to call them that, appear so wildly different that you probably wouldn't even realize they were solutions of the same equation if no one told you. "A butterfly flapping its wings" is a bit hyperbolic, but the idea is the same -- the small changes in pressure (due to the butterfly flapping, presumably) in the initial conditions of your model evolve to become a radical difference in predictions long-run. How long-run is long-run is another story, but eventually your solutions will diverge wildly. You can make these statements precise in a mathematical sense if you know some analysis.

    But, this is a confirmed mathematical phenomena that exists in many useful equations. It's not well-understood in general terms (i.e., there's no general theory on predicting the behavior of equations for arbitrary conditions), but it definitely exists. The protoypical example is the Lorenz equations if you would like to read more.

  24. Re:What Chemicals?? by LoyalOpposition · · Score: 5, Informative

    "Chemicals" do not describe WHAT they actually use. Includes Sodium Hydroxide or Caustic Soda.
    Drain cleaner like Draino or Lye as it was formerly called. They are dissolving matter to create more passages.
    This is besides the fracking debate. Asked why, the industry used "chemicals" and not the true names of the agents,
    they said to hide their 'formula' contents.

    The most abundant chemical used in fracing is water. This is the same water that your waiter serves you with your meal. It's not unusual for frac fluid to be 89% water by mass. I have been on a job that didn't use water. It used oil. When oil is used it's commonly lease oil. That means that oil was produced from the well, mixed into a fracturing fluid, and then pumped back into the well. However, the use of oil as a frac fluid is quite rare. The vast majority of frac jobs use water.

    The second most abundant chemical used in fracing is sand. This is the same sand that you lie on while enjoying a day at the beach. I have personally mixed a frac fluid that was 73% sand. However, it's much too difficult to mix and pump at that concentration, so all frac jobs will be performed at a lower concentration of sand. There are substitutes that are sometimes used in place of sand. One such substitute has been tungsten carbide. However, the use of tungsten carbide in frac fluids is rare. Sand is much less expensive, so it's used in the vast majority of fracturing jobs. It's not uncommon to use a resin-coated sand in the last portion of the fracturing job. Coating the sand in resin helps keep it in the fracture so that it isn't produced with the oil.

    The third most abundant chemical used in fracing is guar. This is the same chemical that your waiter serves in your salad dressing. It turns water into a thin gel. Gelled water is used in fracturing fluid because sand doesn't tend to settle out in gel as quickly as it settles out in water.

    Those three chemicals are all that's necessary for many fracturing jobs. There are other chemicals that may be used. For example, sometimes a crosslinker is used to make the gel really thick. Crosslinkers can be toxic. However, any other chemical used will be used in low concentrations. If for no other reason, then to reduce costs. You can imagine how inexpensive water can be. Similarly, you can imagine how inexpensive sand can be. Guar can be expensive, but fortunately for the fracturing companies, very little is needed.

    If sodium hydroxide is used, it's used to raise the pH. It's not used to create passages. If passages are desired, then they are created using hydrochloric acid. This is the same acid that occurs naturally in your stomach. Jobs that create passages in this manner are called acidizing jobs. It would not be usual to have a fracturing job and an acidizing job at the same time. The passages created by acid don't tend to collapse back down upon themselves. The passage created by hydraulic pressure does tend to collapse back down upon itself, so sand is pumped into the passage to keep the passage open for when the hydraulic pressure is removed.

    The reason the industry uses the term "chemicals" IS to hide the formula. There is intense competition between the companies that provide fracturing services. The actual chemicals used is considered to be a trade secret. Therefore, as long as the fracturing companies continue to hide the true name then they are protected by law. If they were to reveal that name, then anyone would be able to provide the same service and that would drive the price they could charge downward. Of course, it's an open secret that water and sand are used. It's also an open secret that guar is used, but even so it's still used under trademarked names. Why? What reason do you think they have for concealing the true name of their agents?

    ~Loyal

    --
    I aim to misbehave.
  25. Re:It is no big deal. Simple solution exists. by AHuxley · · Score: 2

    http://oilprice.com/Energy/Natural-Gas/U.S.-Government-Confirms-Link-Between-Earthquakes-and-Hydraulic-Fracturing.html
    Seems like the US army knew something was not good back in 1966.
    By 1990 they seemed to understand a bit more “Injection had been discontinued at the site in the previous year once the link between the fluid injection and the earlier series of earthquakes was established.”
    By 2011 more data seems to have made the post Gasland (movie about fracking) US oil industry re think the way they view the US public.
    Question the wisdom of fracking, welcome to the world of "insurgency" and enjoy some psy ops from oil industry staff with a military background.
    http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-11-09/news/30376767_1_download-cnbc-oil-industry-conference

    --
    Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  26. Most likely not fracking.... by desertengineer · · Score: 3, Interesting

    There's a lot of buzz here in Oklahoma about that. Tiring of all the media drama and emotions, and wanting a better explanation, I talked to a retired geologist friend - and she had some good data... First, the epicenters of the quakes (We've probably had a hundred total in the past few weeks) are on the Western edge of a geologic area known as the Seminole Structure. That's on the edge of a much larger discontinuity known as the Nemaha. The faults have been here for a long time, and therefore hold a good measure of energy. Second, the depths have been measured to be around 18,000 ft down. There are no wells in this area close to that depth, so the chance of fracking fluid causing it is diminished. Third, the waveforms suggest a thrust movement rather than side-slip. Fracking isn't much of a candidate there. I posed the question to her that if the chances are small injection wells caused the bigger one, would it be plausible that a smaller quake from the wells could have triggered a chain of stress relief that led to the larger one? Not likely, because if it was so easily triggered ("on edge" of being triggered), then natural processes are more probable than man-made ones to "trigger" the chain. Within hours of the first correlated events, geology researchers (and students?) from OU and OSU were on scene (West of Prague) with sensors and acoustic equipment. This is pretty much the first Oklahoma quake cluster to have that level of detailed instrumentation. Maybe they will get some good grants out of this? :)

  27. Re:Semi-trucks by The+Askylist · · Score: 2
    Teutonic plates?

    .

    Are you saying it's Dresden all the way down?

  28. Not Just Oklahoma, Arkansas, too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/17/guy-earthquake-swarm-arkansas_n_824497.html

    A very focused sampling of USGS data in the area.
    http://neic.usgs.gov/cgi-bin/epic/epic.cgi?SEARCHMETHOD=2&FILEFORMAT=4&SEARCHRANGE=HH&SLAT2=36&SLAT1=34&SLON1=-93.5&SLON2=-91.5&SYEAR=2008&SMONTH=1&SDAY=1&EYEAR=2011&EMONTH=12&EDAY=12&LMAG=&UMAG=&NDEP1=&NDEP2=&IO1=&IO2=&CLAT=0.0&CLON=0.0&CRAD=0.0&SUBMIT=Submit+Search

    259 earth quakes in a 2x2 degree area in the last 4 years. If you look before 2008, you'll see about 30 in as many years.

    Slashdot won't let me post the actual coordinates for you to plot yourself, but here's a map.
    http://batchgeo.com/map/e5dde7a6f9906a750e9dc656bfb25e1e

  29. Seems Plausible by steppedleader · · Score: 2

    I'm no geologist or seismologist, but the idea of fracking leading (indirectly) to larger (M3.0+) quakes doesn't seem entirely implausible. It may be that all the small quakes caused directly by the fracking might cause larger quakes to occur sooner than they otherwise would.

    The quote below is from the abstract to this article: http://www.mred.tuc.gr/home/vasiliki/publications/Mouslopoulou_etal_2009_EPSL.pdf

    "Displacement rates depart from million-year average rates by up to three orders of magnitude with the size of these departures inversely related to the duration of the sample period and to fault length. Short-term (20 kyr) displacement rates generally span a greater range on small faults than large, a feature which suggests more variable growth on smaller faults."

    Fault line displacement rates varying would, I think, mean more, larger earthquakes occur at some times than other times. Earthquakes are a consequence of faults moving toward their equilibrium point, and fracking may be able to act as a catalyst, accelerating the fault line on its journey. In doing so it could move the fault line from one of the inactive, low displacement-rate regimes into a active, high displacement rate regime. Further, the quoted part of the abstract makes it sound like this would more likely occur on small, Oklahoma style fault lines. Basically, the larger earthquakes would have been coming eventually anyway, but maybe the fracking made them get here sooner rather than later.

    This may be difficult to verify, though, since we don't exactly have a way to tell if any specific quake's occurence at a certain time was purely a part of the fault's natural evolution or not. The same goes for a change to a high activity regime where quakes are more common: How would we know the regime change wasn't naturally occuring? Seems like this would make for a good topic to study with some sort of fault line model -- we could have a simulated fault line and see how its evolution varies under natural conditions versus natural conditions plus the addition of something representing the effects of fracking. Do we have deterministic fault line displacement rate models?

    Anyone with more knowledge of geology want to correct me or add anything?

  30. Re:What Chemicals?? by John+Newman · · Score: 2

    The most abundant chemical used in fracing is water. This is the same water that your waiter serves you with your meal. It's not unusual for frac fluid to be 89% water by mass. ...
    If passages are desired, then they are created using hydrochloric acid. This is the same acid that occurs naturally in your stomach.

    I triple-dog dare you to drink a glass of 11% (w/w) hydrochloric acid.

    It's 89% water and contains only a chemical found in your stomach naturally! That can't possibly hurt you!

    Obfuscated science makes kittens cry.