Has Apple Made Programmers Cool?

An anonymous reader writes "CNET suggests that Apple has totally changed the general public's perception of programmers: It's now suddenly cool to code. No matter what platform you're on. They argue that App Store millionaire success stories have 'turned a whole generation of geek coders from social misfits into superheroes.' Apparently, gone are the days when a programmer was the last person you wanted to talk to at a party: 'Mention to someone that you make apps and their interest will pick up instantly. This is an astonishing change from what a programmer in the '80s could have expected in reaction to their job description.' The App Store millionaires, or 'Appillionaires,' may have done all of us programmers a huge favor. Programming is now socially acceptable: 'Previous generations strapped on electric guitars and fought for super-stardom in sweaty dive bars, but today's youth boot up Xcode on their MacBook Pros.'"

Comments

No, they haven't

[CmdrPony]

The only reason for the change is that more socially skilled persons have started using computers at an young age, and continued doing so (and even started programming) while still maintaining their social skills. Don't worry - if you were socially awkward before, you're still as uncool as you even were.

One of the reasons is also that geeks in general don't understand good manners. They view down to people with other interests (how many times have you read here on Slashdot some rants about how stupid people are because they don't know everything about computers), go on and on about their own interests (computers, programming, RPG games..) without even thinking if the other side is interested to talk about that. Geeks cannot grasp the concept of being and acting friendly to other people. It doesn't make only you feel awkward - it makes the other side feel awkward too.

I have enjoyed programming since I was 7-8 years old. I still kind of do. However, it has never been my whole life. There's one great thing growing up in computer generations. Since I turned 20, I've been traveling the world while working on the side. Since all I need for my work is a computer and an internet access, I can do it on the road. Along the way I've met lots of interesting people (and especially girls) who I've all told to that I do programming for a living and it's also how I can travel around the world and live on the road. If anything, that has made people interested. And I really don't myself as an uncool guy, nor do all the women I've met along.

Like it or not, social skills are.. well, skills. If you suck at them, you should try to improve them any way you can. It's not that other people think programmers are uncool, it just comes from the fact that those people often cannot act socially. If an otherwise social and successful person tells he likes programming, does anyone care? No. It's just a matter of being social and not having the only interest in your life be programming.

Re:No, they haven't

[Hazel Bergeron]

Along the way I've met lots of interesting people (and especially girls) who I've all told to that I do programming for a living and it's also how I can travel around the world and live on the road. If anything, that has made people interested. And I really don't myself as an uncool guy, nor do all the women I've met along.

If you use phrases of adolescent self-promotion such as "especially girls" and "all the women I've met", you're uncool.

Re:No, they haven't

[somersault]

"Like it or not, social skills are.. well, skills. If you suck at them, you should try to improve them any way you can."

"Like it or not, social skills are.. well, skills. If you suck at them, you should try to improve them any way you can."

First off - If someone's only interest is programming, why the hell would they care about social skills? Why "should" they try to improve them? Why does everyone in the world have to conform to your ideas?

Besides that - you seem to have exposure to an extremely small set of geeks or socially awkward people. You get friendly and unfriendly geeks, just the same as you do in any group of people. Socially awkward people may just be quiet people with low self esteem. They probably be quite happy to speak to you if you show that you're interested in speaking to them (that's kind of how I am). Then again they may just be misanthropic bastards, but you are taking a few "worst case" people and assuming that hundreds of millions of people are the same. Good job.

I bet that if a few Slashdot posters met up in real life they'd get on pretty damn well compared to how they do here. There would still be disagreements, but they'd be more civil and measured. It's far too easy to be impersonal online, and that's maybe where some of your tripe is stemming from. Have a look at YouTube comments sometime. It's not just geeks that appear to lose the concept of being friendly once they get behind a keyboard.

Re:No, they haven't

[JAlexoi]

The only reason for the change is that more socially skilled persons have started using computers at an young age, and continued doing so (and even started programming) while still maintaining their social skills. Don't worry - if you were socially awkward before, you're still as uncool as you even were.
One of the reasons is also that geeks in general don't understand good manners. They view down to people with other interests (how many times have you read here on Slashdot some rants about how stupid people are because they don't know everything about computers), go on and on about their own interests (computers, programming, RPG games..) without even thinking if the other side is interested to talk about that. Geeks cannot grasp the concept of being and acting friendly to other people. It doesn't make only you feel awkward - it makes the other side feel awkward too.

Generalizing a bit too much, aren't you? There aren't a lot of geeks that have only one interest. It's the general public's interest in software that has increased -> interest in people that make it increased. At one time building websites was cool, therefore web developers got a boost in interest.
And I wouldn't call that social skills, because most pe

Re:No, they haven't

[BenoitRen]

how many times have you read here on Slashdot some rants about how stupid people are because they don't know everything about computers

Way to misrepresent the argument. The problem is that people seem to lose common sense as soon as they sit down in front of a computer because they think it's magic, and they refuse to learn how to work with it.

Re:No, they haven't

[PaladinAlpha]

If talking about programming isn't cool, and programming is what you do (i.e. not something your daddy sent you to school for to cash in on) then you're simply talking to the wrong people. I don't care if programming is 'cool.' I understand that a lot of people aren't interested in software development, or algorithms, or computer science proper. Those people are uninteresting to me, just as I am uninteresting to them. I've got better things to do than make small talk.

Note that 'programming' is kind of like 'engineering' in that it covers a lot of smaller specific interests; my fiance knows little of code, but my keen interest in efficient model design and algorithmic data encapsulation fits firmly parallel her own interests (pursuing a PhD in economics). The opinions of the MBAs or the geologists or the lit crits are of relatively little importance to me.

I guess in a way it's a lot like GNU/Linux. The year of Linux on the desktop isn't here, and may never be here, and it doesn't matter, because I can still use it just fine. Hell, it's better than that because being open source it cannot disappear, and so long as there is a single person who knows a bit of code who likes it, it will see continued development. Do you see the parallel? I may never be a hit at parties given by people that are uninteresting to me, but it doesn't matter, because I love what I do, I do it well, and it's important to society at large, so I'll always be able to do it. I don't feel the need to be 'cool' and accrue superficial connections with people that I won't learn anything from and whom won't learn anything from me, simply because we're headed in different directions.

What I'm saying is 'cool' means 'form instead of function', and I suppose in that sense, yes, Apple has made programmers 'cool.'

Re:No, they haven't

[FyRE666]

It hasn't made programming cool, it has made some of the jobs based around programming appear cooler. If someone asks what you do and you reply that you're a cobol programmer woring for a mortgage company, it's hardly likely to make you seem like the coolest guy in the room. However, if you mention that you write apps for phones, or Facebook, or write games then it's likely to seem more interesting. People can relate to it as they will be using the devices and services you help create content for.

There's also a crossover now, with people who put together a Powerpoint presentation, or mark up an HTML page considering themselves programmers.

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

"I've got better things to do than make small talk."

Son, you must live a lonely life. You are perfect example of what the OP was talking about.

Re:No, they haven't

[dokc]

One of the reasons is also that geeks in general don't understand good manners. They view down to people with other interests (how many times have you read here on Slashdot some rants about how stupid people are because they don't know everything about computers), go on and on about their own interests (computers, programming, RPG games..) without even thinking if the other side is interested to talk about that. Geeks cannot grasp the concept of being and acting friendly to other people. It doesn't make only you feel awkward - it makes the other side feel awkward too.

Well, if I need to talk about trash TV program, super cool new MTV stars, shoes and other brain-dead things then I really do not want to be friendly to other people. Is it too much too expect from others to switch on their brains and talk sometimes about some really important things (science, philosophy, history,...,meaning of life)?!
The "non-geeks" cannot grasp the concept of thinking so they are acting unfriendly to "geeks", so you must defend yourself.

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep, it's cool nowadays to say "All the men I've had sex with."

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

That is perspective depending Hazel, he _needs_ social skills otherwise he couldn't get the 'girls'. Apparently that is high on his priority list.
Everything, from programming to social interaction can be learned, unless you have a medical condition. However this doesn't mean it is easy to learn, for some people some things are harder then for others. Since time is limited, people need to make a choice am I going to spend time on what I am already good at and enjoy or do I grind through the learning process of learning some underdeveloped skill. I chose understanding and learning (generic technical topics) above social interaction, marketing and branding. Which puts me firmly in the geek territory, however this was a choice and I accept that the consequences are that the other skills are unrefined. Generally speaking I can get along with a lot of people, but I don't want to, nor do I care.
--
Martin P. Hellwig

Re:No, they haven't

[umghhh]

with a bit of brains and letting years wear you tired you kind of become a misanthropic bastard all by itself no effort on your side needed. The common idiocy of human kind will make you so or at least has a good shot at it. This however does not have much to do with your 'social skill' thing. There are certain things that are hard wired and changing them is difficult if not impossible. You can compensate some of those if you are unlucky to have such 'weird' characteristic but you would consciously have to spend time doing so and itis not always pleasant or rewarding. Take this example. In group of people I work with my proposals on how to approach problems tend to be thrown out of the window. This has a lot to do with the way I make them one manager told me. This morning I took notice and out of curiosity made a proposal to improve things in a silly way just to see what happens. Indeed they did what I really wanted i.e.noticed that proposal was seriously flawed but going into the right direction and then decided to do the right thing. This was a success then. This is stark contrast to situation in which I showed my co-workers how silly they are following flawed process only to be confronted with 'why did you not tell us' when the failed (after promptly ignoring my righteous advice). When I had higher testosterone levels I tried to forcefully get the message trough but now I laugh a lot. They say I got wiser. Now you figure.

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

It's also this perception of "cool" that's inspired less-than-capable of applying for developer jobs. Rawr.

Re:No, they haven't

[sdk4777]

Programmers made Apple cool.

Re:No, they haven't

[LordNacho]

First off - If someone's only interest is programming, why the hell would they care about social skills?

IMO programming is inherently a social activity. Aren't most programmers writing things that other people are meant to interact with? When you code, don't you ask the users what they think of your creation, how to improve it, etc? Don't you also try to influence how they use the program? That's a social thing, surely?

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice stereotyping douche bag.

Re:No, they haven't

[StripedCow]

And the silly thing is, most of those disdainful programmers don't know anything about solid state physics, the fundamental discipline that gives them the ability to run their programs in the first place. In other words, if you keep behaving like a nerd, you will still be considered a dweeb by others. Disclaimer: I don't know much about the subject, either.

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

One of the reasons is also that non-geeks in general don't understand good manners. They view down to people with other interests (how many times have you heard some rants about how stupid people are because they don't know everything about celebrities or sports), go on and on about their own interests (celebrities, sports, fashion ...) without even thinking if the other side is interested to talk about that.

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

A programmer needs girls so he can roll tits left and roll tits right.

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

That is actually quite an insightful point.

Re:No, they haven't

[xaxa]

If someone asks what you do and you reply that you're a cobol programmer woring for a mortgage company, it's hardly likely to make you seem like the coolest guy in the room.

It might make you cooler than the salesman for the mortgage company. Some guys I met at a music festival who worked for a mortgage company told me my job was much cooler. I work for a museum, and after the usual "but why would a museum need a computer programmer?" response, it's easy enough to explain something to anyone, no matter what their education/job/age. Also, they've probably heard of the museum, which helps.

I reckon the scientists who work here have "cooler" jobs though, which are more interesting to talk about at parties.

Re:No, they haven't

[bronney]

I bet that if a few Slashdot posters met up in real life they'd get on pretty damn well compared to how they do here.

asl plz?

Re:No, they haven't

[Kjella]

The only reason for the change is that more socially skilled persons have started using computers at an young age, and continued doing so (and even started programming) while still maintaining their social skills. Don't worry - if you were socially awkward before, you're still as uncool as you even were.

The computer is the introvert's best friend. With it, you can almost avoid talking to a live person. You buy things online, you don't have to deal with shop staff. Or bank staff in your online bank. And any other self-service solution. With check-in machines, bag drops and ticket scanners you can now go on a flight without talking to anyone, unless you're halted in the security control. At work, you can be a "productive enough to be left alone" worker having as little contact with your boss or colleagues (or rather PHB and cow-orkers) as possible. Or at least limited it to technical work things. At home you can game away pretending to have a life, least your avatar has one. I mean you always had shut-ins but they were also extremely bound by it. Today you can almost be a Sheldon and not clash with society, which used to force you into dealing with other people. If anything it's easier than ever to be a hermit in the middle of the city.

Re:No, they haven't

[Chrisq]

with a bit of brains and letting years wear you tired you kind of become a misanthropic bastard all by itself no effort on your side needed.

I've spent a great deal of time and effort honing my misanthropy you insensitive clod

Re:No, they haven't

[angel'o'sphere]

I agree to most of your points but I think you seriously mix up geeks with nerds.

Re:No, they haven't

[Roger Lindsjo]

If talking about programming isn't cool, and programming is what you do (i.e. not something your daddy sent you to school for to cash in on) then you're simply talking to the wrong people. I don't care if programming is 'cool.' I understand that a lot of people aren't interested in software development, or algorithms, or computer science proper. Those people are uninteresting to me, just as I am uninteresting to them. I've got better things to do than make small talk.

If you are only interested in people that know they are interested in software development then I think you are limiting your potential for development. I try to talk about software development with everyone, from low level memory allocations and race conditions to team forming and communication. If you present it in a passionate you will be surprised that most people will find what you talk about interesting. Also, if you show that you are honestly interesting in what they will tell you about their experiences you will in return get insights into professions you would normally not explore. This way I have heard very interesting stories such as an old man next to me on the plane being one of the oldest captains in Sweden and how he would fly with lights off at low altitude to avoid being shot down when delivering medical supplies during one of the wars in the middle east.

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

This. Insightful. Oh good god.

Project much?

Re:No, they haven't

[TheRaven64]

I think you're confusing non-geeks with idiots. There are lots of people in the world who are neither geeks nor idiots...

Re:No, they haven't

[Idimmu Xul]

First off - If someone's only interest is programming, why the hell would they care about social skills? Why "should" they try to improve them? Why does everyone in the world have to conform to your ideas?

Because it totally sucks having to work with socially abhorant people, it makes the day worse for everyone around them. Even the ones that are polite, but introverted and quiet become a communication energy drain eventually.

Whilst you're right, they don't have to conform to anyone's ideas of the social norm, it helps everyone around you if you have a reasonable set of social skills, which in turn helps yourself.

Unless of course you are a basement dwelling millionaire, cranking out appstore apps with no human contact, then by all means carry on, but that lady that serves you Cheetos would have a much better day if you smiled at her when paying!

Re:No, they haven't

[JasterBobaMereel]

So that explains why all those social games exist, it's for all the introverts to play on-line, and chat with the friends they don't have ...

That explains why Facebook, and Twitter etc is so popular it's for all the socially maladjusted types to interact with all the friends they don't have ...

Most of the people on-line are very social, they see the internet as a tool, like many others, to enhance their life

While it can be also used by introverts, the people who use it most are not ...

Re:No, they haven't

[somersault]

Yep, try not to make it personal if you're pointing out problems I guess. A lot of the time I just don't try to get involved in stuff like that because if I started trying to fix other department's workflows I'd probably be at it for a few years before everything was sorted out, and I don't have the time for that..

Re:No, they haven't

[Larryish]

Are there many COBOL programmers out whoring for mortgage companies? /me is confused.

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

On your claim of non-friendlyness of geeks: That's wrong. It's just that geeks and non-geeks have slightly different notions of what is friendly.

A typical example, a geek considers it unfriendly to bother other people with a question without first trying to solve it yourself. On the other hand, most non-geeks will consider it unfriendly to ask someone to do some research themselves. Therefore a typical scenario is the following:

A non-geek asks a geek about some problem, and it is clear from the question that he didn't make an effort to solve it himself.
Now for the geek that's just unfriendly (friends don't waste friends' time), therefore he asks the non-geek to first do his own research.
Now the non-geek considers that unfriendly, and getting accused for something he considers normal, he complains about that answer.
The geek, being accused for suggesting something he considers normal (even fundamental), then complains about the complaint of the other one.
In the end, both consider each other as violating the most fundamental rules which should be obvious to everyone and then even complains if he is told that.

Re:No, they haven't

[somersault]

The act of programming itself is certainly not inherently social. Most programmers seem to code much better when they are left to themselves for hours/days/weeks to just fully immerse themselves in the problem that they're trying to solve. Other areas of software development can benefit from having good social skills, for example if you get involved with the customer then you can save a lot of wasted time having to re-write things when they come back and say "that's not what we asked for!".

You also have to bear in mind that not all programming is applications programming There are researchers who may be writing programs to solve specific problems where there is no end user per se. Other people may use the code or ideas that have emerged from solving this problem, but they will probably just read that that in a paper rather than strictly requiring any social interaction. Also when it comes to writing things like device drivers, the only thing you'd really expect to get back from users are bug reports.

Re:No, they haven't

[goose-incarnated]

I'm constantly amazed that hardline feminists never have a clue about what normal women find attractive. Much to my displeasure, I've found out that impressing girls with smooth talk actually works, and phrases like that are much more likely to get a larger number of women interested in a man.

I understand totally that hardcore feminists wish that the world worked differently, but it doesn't - women prefer guys who are well-travelled and attractive to other women. Droping hints like the above is almost gauranteed to get women interested in GP.

Re:No, they haven't

[dodobh]

Quiet introverts are only a communication drain for extroverts. Extroverts are a communication energy drain for inroverts.

Re:No, they haven't

[somersault]

I get what you're saying, it's all quite sensible - but I think anyone who is really socially aware should try to put themselves in other's shoes rather than expect everyone to be like they are.

It's funny that you should say introverted people can be a drain on others, because that's exactly how introverts feel about all social interaction. Last year I met the quietest woman I've ever met - she finds it incredibly draining to have to be around other people all the time, and prefers at least a day a week to herself to "recharge". I think all of us can understand that feeling to some extent, but there are people out there who have to deal with an exaggerated version of that feeling, and there's very little they can do to change that short of taking medication.

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

Like it or not, social skills are.. well, skills. If you suck at them, you should try to improve them any way you can.

Unlike programming to improve your social skills you need to practice by interacting with other people preferably non-geeks. It also helps to have mainstream interests so you have something to talk about with the average person. You will also need a thick skin initially to get over the rejection you encounter.

Re:No, they haven't

[skovnymfe]

Nothing wrong with being bi-curious, especially not on the road. Makes hitchhiking a lot easier!

Re:No, they haven't

[Grismar]

I would like to thank you and most of the other people in this thread for demonstrating that programmers are still uncool (at least the ones you're likely to find posting on /.)

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

And I really don't myself as an uncool guy

WTF does this mean?

Re:No, they haven't

[icebraining]

Even the ones that are polite, but introverted and quiet become a communication energy drain eventually.

We are? Why? I'm mostly quiet because I've found out that people in general are quite happy to talk about themselves and their lives, and completely uninterested in listening to others', particularly if they don't care about the same issues.

Re:No, they haven't

[jittles]

Everyone has been on that business trip with the guy who just won't talk... you spend hours and hours with them at the airport, at meals, in the car driving to and from your destination, and they don't say a word! It's miserable. You'd rather be there by yourself than be with the guy who can't say anything more than "hello" and "good night."

Re:No, they haven't

[angel'o'sphere]

I guess the moron who modded me does not know the difference between a geek and a nerd either ;D

Re:No, they haven't

[icebraining]

Don't confuse being alone with being lonely.

I have never found a companion that was so companionable as solitude. We are for the most part more lonely when we go abroad among men than when we stay in our chambers. A man thinking or working is always alone, let him be where he will.

-- Henry David Thoreau

Re:No, they haven't

[dodobh]

Introverts are social, just not in person. People in small doses are good.

Re:No, they haven't

[icebraining]

pretending to have a life

Because "having a life" is what you decide it should be, right?

Re:No, they haven't

[GameboyRMH]

True, women like guys who (they perceive) are popular with other women. That's why if you want to meet women it's far, far easier if you already have a woman in your company, even if she's only your friend. Otherwise you're "fishing without bait."

If you're quiet and not hanging around a woman who might be mistaken for your girlfriend, and you're not strikingly attractive, women will *never* talk to you. Never ever forever never. You might as well be a ghost. If you strike up a conversation and sprinkle on some (not necessarily true) bragging like CmdrPony did, you will get some attention, even if you're a bit on the ugly side.

This reminds me of something Ashton Kutcher once said: "If I had known how many women [my wedding ring] could get me access to, I would have started wearing one a lot sooner!" And that's coming from Ashton freaking Kutcher. That's like Usain Bolt saying he regrets not wearing some model of running shoes earlier.

Re:No, they haven't

[dokc]

True, but who they are?
Artists ... but they are cool, not like "geeks".

Re:No, they haven't

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

Apple fanboi disclosure tag. Wouldn't it be neat if /. let you tag your own UID as "Apple/Android/Linux/PHP/VIM/etc fanboy?" I digress.

if you haven't read it yet, read Masters of Deception: The Gang That Ruled Cyberspace sometime.

Ever since the C64/Apple II days, hackers by and large have been pretty social creatures. Sure, the book's about cracking and phreaking. But, the reality is that each incremental change in our lives where tech has become more and more accepted did the job more than Apple(I wish I could credit Apple here) and you see it from the 80's and early 90's in the novel that these dudes aren't RMS clones eating their own toe fungus.

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

"The act of programming itself is certainly not inherently social"

This is what we have GitHub for. It's facebook for programmers.

Re:No, they haven't

[somersault]

Did you ever consider that this guy just doesn't like you, or hates the sound of your voice? Are you one of those people that can't stand silence and so have to fill it in with inane ramblings? :p

Re:No, they haven't

[coinreturn]

Everyone has been on that business trip with the guy who just won't talk... you spend hours and hours with them at the airport, at meals, in the car driving to and from your destination, and they don't say a word! It's miserable. You'd rather be there by yourself than be with the guy who can't say anything more than "hello" and "good night."

Even worse is the guy who just won't shut up. Ever sit next to one of them on a plane when you just want to read?

Re:No, they haven't

[ShakaUVM]

>>First off - If someone's only interest is programming, why the hell would they care about social skills? Why "should" they try to improve them?

Because you'll fail if you don't develop, to at least a certain degree, the ability to read, write, and speak. Listening maybe should be on that list, but a lot of people seemed to have gotten successful without that one.

If you don't know how to learn to communicate with other people, watch and study how other people interact with each other, and then find a group of people unconnected to your normal social network (so that when you fuck up, it doesn't cost you any friends you care about) and start trying. Eventually you'll develop social skills, and maybe even come to enjoy being able to make women laugh, and in a good way.

Re:No, they haven't

[coinreturn]

And the silly thing is, most of those disdainful programmers don't know anything about solid state physics, the fundamental discipline that gives them the ability to run their programs in the first place. In other words, if you keep behaving like a nerd, you will still be considered a dweeb by others. Disclaimer: I don't know much about the subject, either.

I program on a loom, you insensitive clod!

Re:No, they haven't

[cheekyjohnson]

If you suck at them, you should try to improve them any way you can.

If you want to, that is. Whether someone "should" do something or not is up to the person to decide.

Re:No, they haven't

[GameboyRMH]

Haha mod parent Insightful.

Re:No, they haven't

[JoeMerchant]

Along the way I've met lots of interesting people (and especially girls) who I've all told to that I do programming for a living and it's also how I can travel around the world and live on the road. If anything, that has made people interested. And I really don't myself as an uncool guy, nor do all the women I've met along.

During my world travels (1989-90), I met a guy in his 50s who worked for SwissAir (turbine mechanic was about as nerdy as it got in 1960 when he started), he was buying me beers at a bar across from the Zurich train station while I waited for my train and sobbing his woes to me - mostly how he had never met a woman he could have a real relationship with. Sure, lots of women while traveling, that's easy, but to stick with one for more than a few weeks at a time is a lot more challenging.

When you travel, you are "promoted" in attractiveness since you are exotic, people also cut you a break for some of the slightly "off" things you might do because you are not from around there, this, of course, varies from place to place (e.g. native Parisians will openly dis you for being an outsider, doubly so if you have managed to fool them for a little while that you might be "one of them." Fear not, there are plenty of other "outsiders" in Paris who will treat you well, and even the natives start coming around if you are willing to pay $30 and up for a meal.)

I think nerds, in general, suffer from the "uncanny valley" syndrome - similar enough to normal behavior to creep people out when they perceive the differences. Since the explosion in television channels, and programming, there have been a lot more popular shows depicting all kinds of "fringe" behavior, which is certainly an easier way for "normal" people to start to learn and possibly accept accept some of the differences. A 60 minute weekly TV show is certainly less threatening than taking a trip to a Star Trek convention, or "the Big Nerd Ranch."

Re:No, they haven't

[cheekyjohnson]

I wouldn't change merely because someone doesn't like what I do simply because I don't care and do not want to.

Re:No, they haven't

[_merlin]

Most programmers seem to code much better when they are left to themselves for hours/days/weeks to just fully immerse themselves in the problem that they're trying to solve.

Bullshit - I'm a developer who's evolved into a guy who programs in between management and handling business relationships. The kinds of people who work better when left alone for extended periods of time just aren't that good. The best developers take advantage of being part of a group. Just talking about stuff with each other greatly improves what they produce. The interaction breeds better ideas, and having people to bounce ideas off, or even just banter with, keeps frustration levels down.

The act of programming itself is certainly not inherently social.

Yeah, that's true, but it neglect the fact that humans are inherently social.

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

Sailors? Pilots? Doctors? Race car drivers (most of the good ones aren't stupid - they may be crazy but not stupid).

Of course it depends on what you mean by "geeks".

Re:No, they haven't

[JoeMerchant]

"If I had known how many women [my wedding ring] could get me access to, I would have started wearing one a lot sooner!"

Shortly before I got married, I met a(n attractive) female M.D. about my age through work - she actively avoided me, minimal interaction as required by the professional situation. She went back to her city for two months... I got married and was wearing the ring on her next visit. All of a sudden, she was my best friend, flirting, joining me for lunch and chatting for an hour about her job and apartment and car and whatever else... I actually saw her spot the ring and fixate on it for about a second, and after that came her personality shift - it got into high gear when she verbally confirmed the recent marriage.

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

The delusion goes both ways and then in a loop. Not only do women find you more attractive because you have a certificate of quality(ie. a ring). You also have more confidence in yourself and you are less desperate to get other women. Which in turn makes you even more attractive to women. Which finally spirals you into awesomeness.

Well, either that or you go back to a sexless charisma-free life just with someone stealing your money.

Re:No, they haven't

[winterchapo]

It's not your social skills that make you cool, it's your ability to accidentally words at random.

Re:No, they haven't

[JoeMerchant]

First off - If someone's only interest is programming, why the hell would they care about social skills?

IMO programming is inherently a social activity.

You're obviously new at this. OSS is a social activity, before "the net" it was more common to encounter programmers like Ted. Ted worked for a company for five years, he was a freakin' genius, he wrote all the software in 100 devices that the company makes and sells. He wrote it all by himself, and maintained it when there was an upgrade required. The company was successful enough that, finally, Ted couldn't handle all the software by himself. They hired a couple of kids fresh out of school to help Ted. It didn't go well, in a short time, Ted left. The kids built up to a team of 5 or 6, but they had a high attrition rate, most quit within 6 months and few ever produced anything usable as a product. Finally, 3 or 4 years after Ted's departure, a core set of programmers were established who could work "as a team," sort of, at least they didn't up and quit when they had a disagreement. Even 10 years after Ted's departure, the sales staff still refers to "the Tedware," and it is still running the majority of the products - even though the new stuff looks better because it is built with modern tools, it takes a team of 3 programmers 6 times as long to make a product "ready for sale" as it took Ted "back in the day."

Re:No, they haven't

[JoeMerchant]

"The act of programming itself is certainly not inherently social"

This is what we have GitHub for. It's facebook for programmers.

Yeah, nothing says "I'm a Geek!" louder than knowing how to use (and using) GitHub.

Re:No, they haven't

[JoeMerchant]

Quiet introverts are only a communication drain for extroverts. Extroverts are a communication energy drain for inroverts.

All things in life need balance - a group of extroverts will spend an hour on morning coffee, two on lunch, and schedule themselves into informal and formal meetings for most of the day. If all you have are extroverts, nothing gets done.

If you have an "introvert farm" with each in their own little bubble, it can be very hard to "herd the cats" into a common activity without dragging them into some meetings. If you don't get them in meetings often enough, the meetings become painful experiences for everybody involved.

Re:No, they haven't

[somersault]

I'm not talking about someone trying to become "successful". He said someone who's only interested in programming. So that would be the programmer equivalent of Grigori Perlman, who is only interested in maths.

Personally I have had girlfriends, and I do have a small group of friends that I enjoy spending time with regularly. I've become better over time at dealing with larger social groups too, but often I just have no enthusiasm for that kind of thing. I'm quite happy to live in my not very connected social world, because it leaves me time for other things.

Re:No, they haven't

[dokc]

Pilots?!
Q. How do you know your date with the fighter pilot is half over?
A. He says "but enough about me - wanna hear about my plane?"

Yep, that's really cool (and true, btw)

Re:No, they haven't

[JoeMerchant]

In Cars 2 Holley Shiftwell (an appropriately suggestive phallic reference for a kids' movie) "programs iPad apps" as a cover for her Bond-girl spy activities. It's in the culture, being fed to kids, bless the Geeks at Pixar.

Re:No, they haven't

[jellomizer]

I wouldn't say it made programmers cool, every person has to do that on their own. What Apple did was to make technology cooler.

I always liked technology. the 80's and early 90's was the period of the NERD stereotype was in full force Revenge of the Nerds, Doogie Houser, Screecher, Steve Urkel... Key to the stereotype was good with computers. So I got used to being classified as a Nerd or a Geek. By the late 90's during the .COM boom tech became popular and at around the same time I got comfortable with the idea that I am not popular, I and many of my fellow Geeks have gotten more popular, as people were doing and enjoying what a few years ago was a Geek only domain. Email, Chat Rooms, BBS. And using the computer is able to get out of that stereotype.

Then by 2003 or so the .COM boom busted and technology between 2003-2008 really stagnated. And Apple was the only large company who was making innovations. Giving them some strong footholds in the market and now 2011 Apple is the leader and technology is cool and fun again so the popularity rises.

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

Ashton freaking Kutcher.

...is a douche

a cheating one at that.

and he really single handedly made 2 1/2 men suck even worse than it would've without Charlie.

-CS

Re:No, they haven't

[Brian Feldman]

Developing as a distinct part of a group only has an advantage if others in the group actively take interest. I don't see any real truth to what you describe in my decade of professional experience so far.

Re:No, they haven't

[Brian Feldman]

Those of us that can't stand CONSTANT talking all day feel exactly the same way about hearing your superfluous small talk.

Re:No, they haven't

[luis_a_espinal]

The act of programming itself is certainly not inherently social.

Only when we limit the definition of programming to the mere act of typing instructions or prototyping an algorithm. In other words, this is true only if you equate the act of programming itself with the act of coding at the micro level. That has not been true for several decades now.

Also, with a programming task above a certain level of complexity, even if you methodically divide and conquer, you have to go back to some source for clarification on requirements or requirement discovery, verification and validation, peer consultation and verification. This is specially true for necessarily volatile business requirements and/or non-functional requirements that will have an effect in the architecture of any non-trivial, sufficiently complex system.

Most programmers seem to code much better when they are left to themselves for hours/days/weeks to just fully immerse themselves in the problem that they're trying to solve.

Under ideal conditions when you know enough of the problem (and there are no external forces to cope with) this is true for most. But programming does not occur under those conditions. I would also argue that if someone needs/thinks to need to immerse in a problem for weeks, there is a chance to introduce errors and come up with a flawed solution. A task requiring weeks of immersion is a task/problem of such complexity that it requires constant collaboration, validation and verification from peers in order to achieve an appropriate solution for the aforementioned task/problem.

Other areas of software development can benefit from having good social skills, for example if you get involved with the customer then you can save a lot of wasted time having to re-write things when they come back and say "that's not what we asked for!".

It's not only customers, but liaisons, business analysts, vendors, admins, fellow programmers in the same team, programmers in external teams, program managers (and if you do R&D or work with the DoD or DoE, with systems engineers, electrical/computer engineers, mechanical engineers, etc.) In other words, stakeholders.

You also have to bear in mind that not all programming is applications programming There are researchers who may be writing programs to solve specific problems where there is no end user per se. Other people may use the code or ideas that have emerged from solving this problem, but they will probably just read that that in a paper rather than strictly requiring any social interaction.

My point exactly, we rarely get days (and surely never get weeks) to immerse ourselves in a solution space when programming. We can't, as it is a sure way to produce the wrong solution for the wrong problem. That is what differentiates the mere act of coding with the act of programming (which itself is different from the act of systems and software engineering and development.)

Also when it comes to writing things like device drivers, the only thing you'd really expect to get back from users are bug reports.

Really, and where do they get their requirements for said drivers then? In addition of users bug reports, said programmers get requirements from marketing, market/product development and R&D. I think there is too much focus here on "users". Think stakeholders.

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

Everyone has been on that business trip with the guy who just won't talk... you spend hours and hours with them at the airport, at meals, in the car driving to and from your destination, and they don't say a word! It's miserable. You'd rather be there by yourself than be with the guy who can't say anything more than "hello" and "good night."

I have a colleague like that. After I once told him that there really was no need to have a conversation if he didn't feel like it, we now usually just wait until the boss who cannot stand pauses in conversation has disappeared and then not say another word. He seems relieved and we get on well - and we work together a lot. If I get bored I bring a book. Sometimes a bit of honesty goes a much longer way, than assumptions about what constitute social norms and how much you need to follow them.

Re:No, they haven't

[luis_a_espinal]

"Like it or not, social skills are.. well, skills. If you suck at them, you should try to improve them any way you can."

"Like it or not, social skills are.. well, skills. If you suck at them, you should try to improve them any way you can."

First off - If someone's only interest is programming, why the hell would they care about social skills?

Because as a co-worker, they absolutely suck to work with them.

Because, as an employer, it absolutely sucks to hire them and then find out that they suck at doing what I'm paying them to do (which is not to code alone in a fucking corner, but to work with other co-workers to come up with a solution to complex problems that cannot be solve by one single person, however genius said person might be.)

Because, as a customer, I will face products that are not necessarily are what I paid for. It is bad enough because it is almost inevitable with complex software. But to have that situation partially (and sometimes totally) because a social fuck-o throws a behavioral monkey wrench in the machinery that is trying to get shit done.

In other words, because they suck, and they cost money, and because they milk paychecks while acting like prima donas. That's why.

Why "should" they try to improve them?

If you really have to ask yourself that question...

Re:No, they haven't

[somersault]

I'm not sure what you mean by "aren't that good". It's pretty egotistical to say that guys like Ken Thompson "aren't that good".

I suppose the fact is that there are different ways to be good at programming - some people are better at solving architectural issues, some are better at finding clever algorithms to solve problems, some people simply organise their code better, etc. So programmers can complement each other by interacting for sure, but that's more in design/thinking stages than when it actually comes to writing code. For coding, I've not read of anyone that actually likes to work in an environment full of distractions. It sounds like maybe you don't mind it. In that case you're either very good at fitting programming problems + social interaction into your head at the same time, or you are working on some really simple problems.

Anyway, what about guys like me who are the only developer in the company, and just have to get on with it themselves? I don't feel that I need a team to help me figure things out. I seem to be getting on fine as-is.

Re:No, they haven't

[corbettw]

First off - If someone's only interest is programming, why the hell would they care about social skills?

If someone has only one interest, that's a pretty shallow life. I don't care if it rock collecting, bird watching, or writing zombie fanfic, you need more than one solitary interest to have a full life.

Re:No, they haven't

[Mr. Shotgun]

The book of the road!

Re:No, they haven't

[Oswald McWeany]

That hasn't been my experience.

I used to get a fair bit of attention when I was single- women don't notice me at all now I'm married. ... which is probably actually a good thing.

It's not because I've got old and fat either. Whereas I am older now- I'm working out at the gym, I'm in much better shape than I was in my single days. I'm no narcicist- but I am happier with how I look now then how I looked then.

However- that doesn't mean that the "having women around" theory isn't true. When I was single most of my friends were girls. I just prefer womens company to mens. When I hung out- it was with one or the other of my female friends.

After I got married- having lots of close female friends didn't seem quite as appropriate- so one by one those friendships faded.

The ring itself does nothing.

Re:No, they haven't

[Velex]

I'd like to reply to both you and some of the people who've replied to you who have been modded up instead of modding this whole thread down.

I'm homosexual, you insensitive clod.

There was an openly gay guy at my high school. He was surrounded by girls. Does that make him more of a man than you?

By your logic, it must.

It took me a long time to realize I was homosexual. All through high school and for quite a few years after that I would get pissed and irritated and tell everyone, "I'm not gay!" Then I couldn't figure out why nobody wanted to be around me. Come to find out, women are people, not sexual objects or prizes to be won.

I've found that if you like women, you tend to sleep with them. If you like men, you tend to sleep with them. My roommate, also a geek, tends to have sex on the first or second date, often with women a decade younger than he is.

Did you know there are women who absolutely hate men? That there are women who do refuse to associate with someone who's a programmer simply on those grounds? There are women who like to sleep with thugs? That "social skills" are not good enough to get in bed with any woman out there?

You can't impress a girl or say some magic words and snap your fingers and get in bed with her.

So, you sleep with a lot of women? How should I take that? Does that mean you're incapable of forming meaningful, long-term relationships? Does that mean you cheat a lot? What does that mean, exactly?

Re:No, they haven't

[_merlin]

Developing as a distinct part of a group only has an advantage if others in the group actively take interest. I don't see any real truth to what you describe in my decade of professional experience so far.

The group doesn't have to actively take interest - they help in other ways anyway.

Simply having someone listen while one tries to explain a problem they're trying to solve is often a great help: having to express the problem verbally can make the solution obvious. (This would theoretically work even if the listener was inanimate, since the speaker comes to the solution on their own. Tried it with oversize teddy bears, but the developers don't go for it.)

Giving the group facilities, like a pool table and a table tennis table, will encourage them to take breaks together, and they'll inevitably talk. They may not think they're interested in what each other are working on, but ideas still cross-polinate. Sometimes offhand comments are what one needs to hear.

Some people react well to /b/tard-like abuse. With a diverse enough group, you'll end up with someone who can dish it out. The people who take it well will seek such a person out. Some people can and do raise their standards if told they're not good enough. (Don't try this as a management tactic - just keep a /b/tard or two around, and the people who need abuse will seek it out.)

After some time working together, people will identify complementary skills in each other, and get help when faced with obstacles. If the people who they seek assistance from aren't willing to spend some time helping, maybe they're not the kind of people you want around. (There's another kind of problem person - the one who's too eager to help, and in fact takes work off other developers and does it in its entirety, so the original assignee never learns.)

Seriously, if you haven't seen an effective team in a decade, you aren't working with people who are anywhere near best-of-best developers.

Re:No, they haven't

[necro81]

First off - If someone's only interest is programming, why the hell would they care about social skills? Why "should" they try to improve them?

Because despite the stereotype of the uberprogrammer sitting in a dark room twenty hours a day downing mountain dew and cheese puffs, everyone has to actually live in the world. That means, yes, interacting with other people in social ways. Want to get a good job, be valued in the workplace, have a friend of two? Then you need some modicum of sociability. As an employer, I could be accepting of quirks in order to get good technical skills, but if the guy can't communicate (or worse, is an antisocial asshole) then I won't hire him or her over someone more likeable who has less skill.

Re:No, they haven't

[JonySuede]

thank you apple !

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

Not so. If all you have in a corporation are so-called 'extroverts' then what you have is a non-functional group of gabbing monkeys jockeying for control over each other. On the other hand, if all you have in the company are a bunch of introverts (ones who want to work, not lazy slobs who just sit in their cubes) then you just need a project manager to hand out assignments and check on progress. Introverts who want to work, left to themselves, will work. Extroverts who want to work, left to themselves, will try to get others to work with them.

Introverts work. Extroverts committee.

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

If you use "CmdrPony" for a nick, you're uncool.

Re:No, they haven't

[_merlin]

For coding, I've not read of anyone that actually likes to work in an environment full of distractions. It sounds like maybe you don't mind it. In that case you're either very good at fitting programming problems + social interaction into your head at the same time, or you are working on some really simple problems.

Well the real world comes complete with distractions included. If you have a complex system to support and develop, you're going to need people who can deal with it. There will be support calls that need to be escalated to a developer. There will be changing priorities. There will be unreasonable customers. There will be urgent changes required on short timescales pushed on you by external parties over which you have no control. Team members will get sick, get pregnant, give birth and die and the show will have to go on.

Anyway, what about guys like me who are the only developer in the company, and just have to get on with it themselves? I don't feel that I need a team to help me figure things out. I seem to be getting on fine as-is.

Well I'd argue that you've never had to develop and support anything on the scale that I work with, or the pace of delivery required to maintain competitiveness. There's far more work than one person could handle, and even with the team at the size it is, the most productive developers (about a dozen of them) are over-stretched. But one thing's for sure, we'd be out of business if the guys and girls didn't work effectively as a team - a bunch of one-man armies just wouldn't produce the same result.

Re:No, they haven't

[somersault]

My point exactly, we rarely get days (and surely never get weeks) to immerse ourselves in a solution space when programming. We can't, as it is a sure way to produce the wrong solution for the wrong problem.

I really don't understand your thinking here. Thinking through problems is just simply necessary sometimes. The longer you think, the better you understand the problem. Sometimes you might choose the wrong path and have to backtrack, but you may have to do that no matter how many people you've talked to. When I was 16 I just woke up one morning having figured out the solution to the problem I had been working on for the past couple of days. If you are immersed in a problem in that way it's a great way to come up with solutions.

Also recently I had to redesign the timesheet system here at work to take into account some new factors for a new project that the company has taken on. I happened to be sick at the same time so I just worked from home, and I flew through the design and coding compared to what I would have been able to do at work (where I often get people coming in and asking me for help).

You keep talking about developers working in a team. If you're working in a team, it's obvious that social skills are useful. There are many people out there just doing programming for fun or research or whatever though. Being a programmer does not have to involve being a sociable person.

Really, and where do they get their requirements for said drivers then? In addition of users bug reports, said programmers get requirements from marketing, market/product development and R&D. I think there is too much focus here on "users". Think stakeholders.

Again I wasn't thinking of professional coders, I was thinking of people who for example wrote a Linux driver so that they could use a particular piece of hardware themselves, and then submitted the driver to the main source tree.

Re:No, they haven't

[YouDieAtTheEnd]

Everyone has been on that business trip with the guy who just won't stop talking... you spend hours and hours with them at the airport, at meals, in the car driving to and from your destination and they never stop! It's miserable. You'd rather be there by yourself than be with the guy who won't shut up from the moment you say "hello" until the time you say "goodnight".

Re:No, they haven't

[dkleinsc]

programming is what you do

Programming is one part of what I do, but it's not my entire raison d'etre, and if it were I would consider it more than a little unhealthy. If nothing else, there's a significant risk of eyestrain and carpel tunnel syndrome or tendonitis. Plus my significant other, my close friends, my relatives, etc would be more than a little upset. And yes, it means I produce less code then somebody who lives in a cave with 47 computers and a direct line to the nearest pizza place, but I don't care.

You remind me of one of the interns I mentored: He was a very smart guy, did some pretty good work for us, and then stated that after he worked for us he would go back to where he was staying and code all evening. Our team did a lot of trying to convince him to try taking a walk in the park or go somewhere around town or take some time to just relax. We managed to corrupt him a bit, by buying him his first beer ever (he was in his mid-20's), but he seriously needed to spend time doing things other than coding.

I think this exchange explains the problem quite well:

Sean: Hey, Gerry, In the 1960s there was a young man that graduated from the University of Michigan. Did some brilliant work in mathematics. Specifically bounded harmonic functions. Then he went on to Berkeley. He was assistant professor. Showed amazing potential. Then he moved to Montana, and blew the competition away.
Lambeau: Yeah, so who was he?
Sean: Ted Kaczynski.

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

Completely agree. Myself, I just say "I work in cellular" and keep everything as vague and high level as possible because if I say I'm a programmer, then they inevitable think they understand roughly what I do, so ask for more details, I provide them, their eyes glaze over and then they politely run away as soon as possible. Sorry, but there just isn't anything inherently cool about programming routing protocols. Seriously, how do you make "I wrote some middleware between our proprietary MSC architecture and the open LDAP servers the databases use" sound cool?

Re:No, they haven't

[V!NCENT]

I agree for the most part with your post, except the computer thing.

No I don't expect people to know what the NT kernel is, or how to compile C with classes on Mac OS X. What I do expect people to be able to do is find the fscking web browser icon, just as I expect someone to know how to start a car that has the ignition two centimeters off compared to their previous car.

Why do I do this? Because it's 2011 and when some internet cable gets cut, people can't even get food delivired to supermarkets anymore.

It's a matter of brain damage; not able to adapt.

Of course there are there people who never grew up with personal computers, so they are in the clear right? Right... except the people who invented them mostly are either dead now or 80 years old. So there goed that excuse.

It's realy just that fscking stupid.

Re:No, they haven't

[Tenebrousedge]

BORE, n.: A person who talks when you wish him to listen.

EGOTIST, n. A person of low taste, more interested in himself than in me.

- Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

Re:No, they haven't

[somersault]

You are assuming that this person even has that kind of job. If they only care about programming, it's a lot more likely that they will work in research. Possibly for a business, but maybe also at a University, and they won't have to deal with requirements, or customers. They may speak to other company researchers, professors and students, but chances are that they will be speaking to them about subjects that they find interesting, and so it won't be a burden for these people to deal with each other. I fail to see the problem.

If someone is going to work as a professional developer in a team, then yes social skills would make things much easier of course.

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

The ring itself doesn't do a thing, but what it represent does. Unless you confirm that you're married (or in relationship) the ring is not enough. Or you can lie about it.
Anyway it's just a means of getting attention. Once you have attention, you can get somewhere, if you're good enough.
In your case, many female friends attract attraction better than a $10.000 ring.

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

There wasn't a -1, Nerd option.

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

If you met up in-person, you wouldn't need to ask!

Re:No, they haven't

[AdamJS]

Or for project managers, code reviewers, clients, basically anyone that needs to ensure a project is completed on time and up to snuff.

Re:No, they haven't

[LordNacho]

You're right, of course I'm writing from a certain point of view, not one based in the early years of the computer age. But times have moved on. These days a lot of programmers are merely facilitating some other business, rather than working as a programming specialist in a programming firm. You know, guys doing various websites, apps, that kind of thing. They're "using computers for other reasons than computers being cool". They're also not as involved, or care less, about the hardcore aspects of what they're doing (try looking at an excel sheet written for an option trading outfit if you want to see messy code). Quite a lot useful things can be knocked together with standard parts these days. They may not be optimal, but many are functional.

I actually have a Ted guy in my building. He works by himself, all day, on what I consider to be pretty hardcore engineering. I think he also writes the drivers for the PCB he's building. Interesting fellow, and somehow he does give off the air of "uber-nerd". But I'm thinking these days, you've got a lot of people who've taken tech in many different directions, and those guys aren't so similar to my buddy.

Re:No, they haven't

[YouDieAtTheEnd]

Even the ones that are polite, but introverted and quiet become a communication energy drain eventually.

Congratulations! You just offended half the world population and 80% of /.

they don't have to conform to anyone's ideas of the social norm

Introverts have their own social norm, namely that the focus in a work environment should be on the work itself. Most other introverts I know have zero difficulty engaging in conversation when it's about a common directive or goal such as accomplishing a task at work, it's only when people try to engage them in idle small talk or go off on an unrelated tangent that they start blocking. I suspect that what you perceive as a communication energy drain is your attempt to insert unrelated topics into a business communication. Tell them clearly what they need to do and set deadlines for reports on their progress and most introverts will exceed your expectations.

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

efficient model design and algorithmic data encapsulation fits firmly parallel her own interests (pursuing a PhD in economics).

Physics envy of the most dangerous sort. Economics is not a science, and cannot be modeled in any useful (predictive) way. Cf Fama, Mandelbrot.

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it wouldn't be neat -- it's apparent from what you write.

Re:No, they haven't

[hedwards]

If you've ever read any code, I think the answer to that is obvious.

Re:No, they haven't

[somersault]

Sure, but the original hypothetical statement was about someone who was "only interested in programming". That's "shallow" by anyone's standards - and it's a hard thing to imagine given that programmers tend to be helping people in other fields solve problems. But the guy was being an asshole/troll, saying all geeks and quiet people are misanthropes who should get a life. So I thought I'd deal with him at a similarly trollish level by using his extreme example. Anyone who really was that single minded honestly doesn't care if they are a social outcast.

Re:No, they haven't

[somersault]

You may notice that I posted the same quote twice in my original post. The second quote was meant to be

It's just a matter of being social and not having the only interest in your life be programming.

My point was that if someone is really only interested in programming, they don't care about being sociable.

Want to get a good job, be valued in the workplace, have a friend of two?

If someone wants these things, then clearly programming is not their only interest. OP was trolling, and I was simply responding to his ludicrously extreme examples.

Re:No, they haven't

[asylumx]

False Dichotomy!

Re:No, they haven't

[somersault]

That's all true, but I've become much more productive since I wangled my way into a quieter office, and we brought a second IT guy on board to handle most of the basic IT support needs of the company :)

I do have to deal with constantly changing requirements, and currently around 4 or 5 different projects, as well as occasional IT management and second line support duties. I enjoy the programming aspect of my job the most when I have a clear set of goals to work towards, and nobody interrupts me :p

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

Summary:

paragraph 2: Geeks only talk about themselves, that makes them socially awkward.
paragraph 3: Me me me, I, I, I, girls, girls, girls.

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

Even worse is the guy who just won't shut up. Ever sit next to one of them on a plane when you just want to read?

How many times did you ask him to stop?

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

*cough* wanna be PUA *cough*

Re:No, they haven't

[tixxit]

I think he is just assuming that people think the epitome of cool is sleeping with a lot of woman. And it is when you are in your teens... Then, as you get older, you meet other people who want to have sex with you and realize that sex is actually a fairly small part of your life -- an important part, but small nonetheless -- and that meaningful, long-term relationships, both sexual and platonic, have a far bigger impact on your life.

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

Meh... too much pansy wansy... I'll be me, you be you - and if we get along great, if not, get out of my sight.

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

nice DHV ;)

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

The act of programming itself is certainly not inherently social.

Yeah, that's true, but it neglect the fact that normal humans are inherently social.

FTFY. HTH!

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

No, they aren't. I mean some of them certainly are, but you can't decide if a person is an idiot based on the job he has. It take some social skills to find interesting people... often not where you would have guessed.

Re:No, they haven't

[Hognoxious]

When you code, don't you ask the users what they think of your creation, how to improve it, etc?

Hell no, I work on Linux.

Re:No, they haven't

[Misanthrop]

yeah.. tell me about it..

Re:No, they haven't

[fredrated]

"... or the geologists ...are of relatively little importance to me"

To me all of science is of interest, including geology. Did you know that geologists are still struggling to explain how the Grand Canyon came to be? The issues involved are fascinating.

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

If you use "CmdrPony" for a nick, you're uncool.

I dunno, his nick seems about 20% cooler than yours - or mine.

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

Good point, but it was very hard to get through with all those "Quotes".

Does the sentance, "When you travel, you are promoted in attractiveness since you are exotic" really need quotes around promoted? Yes I used quotes, but properly haha. I was quoting you.

Off did not need quotes, one of them did not, outsiders did not. Uncanny Valley did not.

The only quote that wasn't bad was for normal people since it could be a sarcastic quote indicating they are probably not normal.

It seriously took me much longer to read your post because of it, despite the good point within.

I'm not trying to be a grammar nazi, I could care less. It was just really odd.

Re:No, they haven't

[Imbrondir]

Nobody cares if you try to improve on it or not. If your only interest would be programming, good for you. Still though, I have a hard time imagining someones life that would not improve, after improving social skills. Unless you're already 'good enough' at it of course. Whether it's about getting a job, a raise, friends, girlfriends or even collaborating with other programmers, social skills will always help.

That said I agree on your point about "quiet people with low self esteem".

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, some of us are in fact girls.

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

Everyone has also been on that business trip with the guy who just won't shut up. You spend hours and hours trying to finish the presentation you're supposed to give to the customer you're traveling to, and they keep trying to impress you with anecdotes about that one time (this is really hilarious) when he was in that bar with the CEO of FooCorp and (listen to this) he got totally drunk (oh wait, remind me to tell you about that other time when... oh hello there! You're looking sharp, lady! What hotel are you staying in? Really? Oh that's amazing, we are in the same hotel)

etc. etc. etc.

Re:No, they haven't

[CimmerianX]

Correction... The "Unwritten" book of the road.

Re:No, they haven't

[jittles]

This particular person is like this with everyone. You can't even get him to talk about the stuff he is working on, even if its important to his career. I never said that I wanted to ramble on about inane things. But if you're going to spend a week with someone on a trip, you need to say more than just hello and good night. It's just common courtesy, and I'd suspect that it's new to you since you think that being pleasant to your coworkers is inane.

Re:No, they haven't

[jittles]

Yes, I've been stuck next to those people too. I prefer to just not talk to people on th eplane.

Re:No, they haven't

[jittles]

You're confusing me with a person who loves to hear the sound of their voice. I'd much rather listen to someone than to talk to them. But I do believe that it is important to at least be pleasant and friendly to your coworkers, and not just sit there in your own little world for a whole week of a business trip. Especially since this particular guy won't go to dinner by himself, but won't talk to you at dinner either. Why does he need someone to go with him then?

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

Cool Story Bro

Re:No, they haven't

[Wandering Voice]

"Seriously, how do you make "I wrote some middleware between our proprietary MSC architecture and the open LDAP servers the databases use" sound cool?"

I would say that is cool. Maybe not the same degree of Cool as in writing something like a video game, but as it takes specialized knowledge and experience to work with these systems, I can recognize that and respect that enough to say it is cool.

I'm a hobbyist programmer. I taught myself Python and have dipped into PHP and MySQL. It's been a big eye-opener seeing how much creativity and effort go into developing software.

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

But why would a museum need a computer programmer?

Re:No, they haven't

[geekoid]

"Geeks cannot grasp the concept of being and acting friendly "

That is nonsense and insulting. Maybe you shouldn't get you view of programmers and geeks from TV and Movies.

Re:No, they haven't

[somersault]

I said no such thing, I was just asking you some questions. From my response, and others' responses, you should be able to tell that a few people do consider "pleasant" small talk quite inane.

I agree with you that the guy sounds boring, but he doesn't "need" to do anything. Maybe he had horrific things happen to him as a child and can't help being like that. Maybe not. Either way, I can see getting annoyed at someone for not shutting up, but getting annoyed at a co-worker for being too quiet is kind of crazy. This person is not your friend, he is simply a co-worker. You would expect friends to talk to you, but I don't see why you expect all of your co-workers to act like friends.

Notice also that I didn't say that you can't be friends with co-workers. But if this guy can get his job done without speaking to anyone, and is happy to do that, it's his choice.

Re:No, they haven't

[geekoid]

" why the hell would they care about social skills?"
Because good social kills can get you better job, cooler programming gigs(cool to you), and even help you get funding for your own programming company. It can get you better deals, and it can help you improve your skills.

"Why does everyone in the world have to conform to your ideas?"
The world is a social place, learn the skills s you can get what you want easier.

Sure, you can be a rude cranky SOB programming in the basement of some company, but is that really the kind of programming you want to do?

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, she finds you more attractive but not in a sexual way.

When you were single a woman had to worry about giving you the wrong idea, pissing off her SO or starting rumors by spending too much time hanging around a single guy. Now that you are married you are effectively her gay friend. The sexual aspect of the relationship is gone. It's all bark and no bite. You can only be her platonic friend now.

Plus, if you ever do try to take things to the next level, she just reminds you that you are married or says let's not jeopardize the friendship. Awkward, but not as bad as flat out having to turn someone down. She can take the high road here.

Does being married make you more attractive sexually to women. I suppose it doesn't hurt. It suggests a certain level of dependability and responsibility. Another woman found you acceptable enough to marry. Those are good things, but I don't believe that explains the sudden shift. It's more likely what I said earlier.

Of course, this is also how affairs start. Even though in her mind you are just friends, now that she will actually talk to you, who knows, she may find out she really likes you.

Re:No, they haven't

[somersault]

This is about the only response that hasn't been completely loaded with crazy ideas of "people should be the way I want them to be". It makes sense. Nice work :)

Re:No, they haven't

[spire3661]

I often will extend uncomfortable silences because quite frankly from experience, i bore people to death with my interests. Its far easier for me to sit in uncomfortable silence then engage in uncomfortable active conversation. IF you want to talk, ill be happy to listen, but dont expect to make up small talk just to talk.

Re:No, they haven't

[somersault]

Especially since this particular guy won't go to dinner by himself, but won't talk to you at dinner either. Why does he need someone to go with him then?

Wow. Really does sound like he has issues. I wouldn't like to meet his parents.

Re:No, they haven't

[spire3661]

[ citation needed ]

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

But Powerpoint presentations is real coding...I mean you type the text and make things fly in, spin...do all sorts of neet animations...and then finally strobe the $$$ you are asking for at the bottom...that's real coding right? Forget all that C...whatever it is, or Java, which I think is another name for the early morning coffee...you know the fuel to make those exciting Powerpoint presentations...the "Applications" that only require right and left arrows to operate, what a nice interface, wow...so stylish; it's almost as easy as say programming a game, but obviously with more subtle difficulties like choosing the font to use. Let me tell you that more than one company has gone under due to the wrong font choice. Oh and you can never, ever, ever use marching ants on anything.

Re:No, they haven't

[flyingsquid]

I use Apple and I think their products are pretty cool. I think that Steve Jobs, for all his flaws, was also a pretty cool guy- he was a visionary, an iconoclast, he spoke with passion about technology, he had that whole hipster-poet look going on with the turtleneck and the glasses. But I'd argue that he didn't change how we saw cool. I think Bill Gates and Microsoft did more on that front, because Gates is more the stereotypical nerd. Gates is not outgoing and he's not fashionable, he's the guy you imagine in the "before" picture of a bodybuilding advertisement... but he showed that the kind of person that used to be widely mocked in high school could build a multibillion dollar empire and usher in a major technological revolution, and people are willing to respect that.

So I think of those "I'm a Mac, and I'm a PC" ads. Selling the hipster "I'm a Mac" guy as cool isn't really that hard and isn't any sort of major cultural shift. What's remarkable is that our concept of cool has shifted enough to where it can potentially include the nerdy "I'm a PC" guy.

Re:No, they haven't

[DahGhostfacedFiddlah]

When dealing with a bad idea that might be taken personally, I've stopped even calling it a "bad idea" or making any disparaging remarks.

I've found it's far more effective to ask for clarification on some point that I know is flawed.

A: Well, what happens when a user does X?
B: Obviously it will continue as normal, thus deleting all of their....ooooohhhhhhh

Or
A: When a user does X, this seems to imply that we delete all of their files and then punch their mothers. Is this correct?
B: Hmmm...

"Is this correct" is one of the most useful phrases when trying to show how something is, in fact, incorrect.

Re:No, they haven't

[Idbar]

No, the whole boom pre-2000 caused programming jobs to have a boost, so many programmers, which end up as software developers get paid well.

And money is always cool, no matter where it comes from. If you get enough to pay for stuff, including gadgets and a home, then that does it.

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

I've always had trouble with this: why is it that everyone expects me to understand their needs? Why must they ignore mine?

If I smile at the lady that serves me Cheetos, I would be showing interest in here. I'd only do that if I am attracted to her.

Instead of expecting me to conform to your standards, how about you complete the "social circle of tolerant understanding" and understand mine and quit expecting me to be exactly like you. I can be polite and introverted. I guess that's hard to grasp for most people.

Re:No, they haven't

[Belial6]

Let me try it:

What happens when the employee is asked if it is correct that their mother is going to get punched?

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed, I'm wondering how this post got past the spam filters.

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

It's the first rule in the unwritten book of the road...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXz-HCcDUHY (Feat. George Carlin)

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

If someone's only interest is programming, why the hell would they care about social skills? Why "should" they try to improve them?

Because like it or not, humans are a social species, and despite every 14 year old nerd's death-metal-prompted pretensions to "walking the icy edge of the frozen dawn, city to city, town to town, a man alone," you need to interact with the people around you in your life, and being incapable of interacting with the people around you is going to result in a pretty miserable life.

Re:No, they haven't

[AmbushBug]

This doesn't necessarily mean she was attracted to you. Its more likely that she now felt "safer" talking to you since you were married (ie. less likely to hit on her).

Re:No, they haven't

[Belial6]

I can understand that. I find discussions on subjects that are completely settled to be boring. I find it pointless to sit around patting each other on the back for saying things that we all already know and agree on. I find it enjoyable, and by extension relaxing to discuss things that are not already settled. To hear new ideas, give new ideas, and use that interaction to form new ideas. I have learned that most people HATE that. They consider it work, and want to avoid it when possible. People also have a tendency to take offense when someone doesn't agree with them, and new ideas very frequently lead to disagreement.

So, like you, I am an extrovert that frequently gets mistaken for an introvert.

Re:No, they haven't

[Belial6]

Holley Shiftwell was not an iPad programmer because it was cool. She was an iPad programmer because she was a dork. She was no more cool than Mater. She was just a hot female nerd instead of an ugly male nerd.

Programming has been cool since at least the 80's as long as those you are talking too don't have to know anything about the reality of it. The place that software developers often blow it in the 'programming is cool' area is that they think people showing interest in their jobs as people actually having an interest. If you write code for a living and people ask what you do, stick to telling them what your end product is. As soon as you start telling them details, even as broad as what language you use, the shine is lost.

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

I can run my programs using purely mechanical interactions. The physical basis is completely irrelevant to the process of writing software.

Re:No, they haven't

[Darinbob]

I have found it's easier to talk about my job when it's something people understand (ie, to relatives or such). When I had to say "I work on help desk software" people would spontaneously lapse into comas. But when I could say "I work on a medical device" or "I work for Nokia" there was a lot more interest even though if I described what I actually did in that job they wouldn't understand it.

If you say "I wrote an app that make a breaking glass sound when you shake the phone" people think it's cool. But if you say "I wrote the underlying operating system for the phone after spending decades learning my craft" people yawn and start looking for that cool kid with the funny app to ask if he has met Siri personally. If you do care about what's cool or not then engineering is the wrong field for you.

Re:No, they haven't

[Belial6]

I would have to mostly disagree. For the most part not being an idiot in and of itself will get a person labeled as a geek. More often people confuse being an sociopath fixated on money or having a specific talent/field of expertise with not being an idiot.

Re:No, they haven't

[Darinbob]

The problem here is that Gates is an actual programmer no matter how you feel about him personally. Jobs was not a programmer or engineer. The only reason Gates has any cool is because he got rich and that fed into the American myth. To most people "cool" is a person that they want to be.

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

This doesn't necessarily mean she was attracted to you. Its more likely that she now felt "safer" talking to you since you were married (ie. less likely to hit on her).

Thanks for that jab at the self-esteem (I'm married with kids now... do you think Al Bundy cares about _his_ sex appeal?)

Of course it was a security thing with her, and she likely didn't want a relationship on either visit, I just think it's amazing how different _they_ can act when I haven't really changed at all.

Re:No, they haven't

[jacksinn]

I'm a very quiet guy and find it hard still to talk with people that I've worked with for weeks. My current office mate has worked with me for a few months and I just recently started talking to him about more than some code details. It just takes me a really long time to warm up to people. I'd probably make people who have to talk miserable too but I live inside my head mostly and take a long time to warm up to people. I absolutely hate small talk and I hate probing at subjects to try to get me to talk. With me, it's just a switch that goes off finally -- or doesn't.

Re:No, they haven't

[Belial6]

All of the time. I don't know what planet you live on, but that behavior is common here on earth. Particularly with sports. When it comes to sports, it is common to actively and openly shun those that don't share the interest. People will literally out of the blue ask strangers at totally unrelated events "What's the score?" I can't count the number of times I have seen someone interested in sports, walk into another person's house and literally change the channel away from what was actively being watched on TV because they didn't get that it was rude. Temper tantrums are common if they don't get to watch their games.

No, there is no group on the planet that has worse manners than people interested in sports. So, clearly that is not the issue.

Re:No, they haven't

[Belial6]

Your probably right. The difference is geographical.

Re:No, they haven't

[Belial6]

That is insightful.

Re:No, they haven't

[luis_a_espinal]

You are assuming that this person even has that kind of job. If they only care about programming, it's a lot more likely that they will work in research. Possibly for a business, but maybe also at a University, and they won't have to deal with requirements, or customers. They may speak to other company researchers, professors and students, but chances are that they will be speaking to them about subjects that they find interesting, and so it won't be a burden for these people to deal with each other. I fail to see the problem.

If someone is going to work as a professional developer in a team, then yes social skills would make things much easier of course.

If they only care about programming in the literal sense of the word, and have no interest in working as a programmer, then they are behavioral outliers. They are hardly the focus of the discussion on the usefulness of social skills. Maybe these kind of things are not properly conveyed in internet forums, but to me, that focus is apparent for such a discussion.

BTW, I'm not trying to be an ass, just trying to explain my perspective.

Re:No, they haven't

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

Duh, but no one knows I'm also a Debian fanboy either.

Re:No, they haven't

[DemonGenius]

The reason why civilization and technology exists is because we humans above all other species are proficient at altering our environment to our advantage. For most geeks, it's obvious that we can't compete with the so-called "alpha male" in most cases, so the social environment in which they exist is not advantageous to us getting our pick of women. However, what if we were able to manipulate an environment in which we are proficient at to get what we want? What if we were actually able to use skills unique to us and apply those to a different kind of problem than what we're used to? What if we can simply ignore the stigma we're branded with and use the energy we would have spent being frustrated and use that for self-improvement? I know much of the time us geeks are given a hard time, and many of us are down on our luck unfairly, but it never ceases to amaze me how many of us refuse to actually use our brains effectively and to our direct benefit.

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

Only an extrovert would say that!

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

"Hell no, I work on Linux."

I'm actually pretty impressed with Linux in this regard. Many of the toolkits that have evolved under Linux are ahead of the game for getting user feedback. Maybe because the users are the testers.

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't tell if you missed the h or the k in "woring for a mortgage company"

Re:No, they haven't

[cthulhu11]

If you use phrases of adolescent self-promotion such as "especially girls" and "all the women I've met", you're uncool.

... and clearly a kid. Women over 30 continue to only care about height and testosterone.

Re:No, they haven't

[KoRnhornio]

Don't worry - if you were socially awkward before, you're still as uncool as you even were.

Whew! Dodged a bullet there! :)

Re:No, they haven't

[djlowe]

Aw, how cute! A self-professed hobbyist programmer with a UID in the nosebleed section deigns to lecture the rest of Slashdot, assuming that his life is exactly what everyone else here aspires to.

Re:No, they haven't

[f()rK()_Bomb]

Completely misunderstanding what an introvert is there. Introverts can be very social, they just hate the usual social interactions, for example small talk. Nothing annoys me more than a random person asking me the score of the match or something similar. On the Internet people skip all the small talk bullshit and just talk about the idea or problem or whatever. Irc is like introvert heaven. Being in a social group is actively tiring for me, but I can talk away to people over Facebook for hours usually cause they won't talk as much useless bollocks. They usually talk to me cause they have a question or problem to solve or similar. I am the guy the parent was referring to. I hate going into shops and having the fear that some sales droid is gonna start talking to me. The Internet lets me be really social without the actual physical hassle of dealing with people in the real world. You can also just disappear online after talking to someone for 10mins and it's not weird, lots of little things you wouldn't realise are important make the Internet amazing for people with introverted tendencies.

Re:No, they haven't

[tehcyder]

If you use phrases of adolescent self-promotion such as "especially girls" and "all the women I've met", you're uncool.

And, as you are posting on slashdot, almost certainly a fantasist.

Re:No, they haven't

[randyleepublic]

Question: why should anyone tolerate religion?

Don't get me wrong. I don't want to burn bibles and blow up churches. But I don't want to tolerate religion either. I find it disgusting that people abuse their children by indoctrinating them with that fear porn.

Re:No, they haven't

[f()rK()_Bomb]

A kingdom of mod points to that ac

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

True, women like guys who (they perceive) are popular with other women. That's why if you want to meet women it's far, far easier if you already have a woman in your company, even if she's only your friend. Otherwise you're "fishing without bait."

Personally, I'd disagree -- I've never had any trouble picking up girls using nothing but my wits, and although fit and active I'm not strikingly attractive by any stretch. In my experience, being intelligent, funny and able to carry a conversation is a massive attraction to intelligent girls. (I can't speak for the unintelligent ones, mind you -- I've never been interested in them, and maybe they're attracted to guys with extraneous females and boasts ...)

But -- and here's the thing -- you can't be quiet or shy, and you do have to have self-confidence, wit and charm. Nobody's ever going to be attracted to a wall-flower.

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

... my fiance knows little of code, but my keen interest in efficient model design and algorithmic data encapsulation fits firmly parallel her own interests (pursuing a PhD in economics).

Fucks sake I just want to puke right now!

Re:No, they haven't

[sjames]

I had that once. Just to make it worse, he spoke only Spanish and I don't know more than a few words of it. That didn't seem to bother him any!

Re:No, they haven't

[dodobh]

You want short, to the point meetings. No chitchat. Those work *very* well for introverts.

Re:No, they haven't

[Anonymous Coward]

You want short, to the point meetings. No chitchat. Those work *very* well for introverts.

True that, but most introverts I know are only 90% introvert, they still have a 10% social side that needs to bust out once in awhile.

Bitch please...

[Anonymous Coward]

I was cool way before Apple.

Re:Bitch please...

[angel'o'sphere]

you mean as in iCool?

Re:Bitch please...

[Anonymous Coward]

iCool noVerb.

As predicted

[Anonymous Coward]

Whether Apple has done so or not, this trend was predicted a few years ago by Adam Curry. Go listen to his podcasts.

Appillionaires?

[Jack Malmostoso]

Seriously? Is that a word now?

Re:Appillionaires?

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a feeling the author of the article made it up. There's a link in the article to a book on Amazon by the title of Appillionaires: Secrets from Developers Who Struck It Rich on the App Store which just happens to be by the author of the article. How about that. A total coincidence.

Re:Appillionaires?

[phonewebcam]

Ahem. Apple doesn't have the App Store. It has an App Store. And that's official. They lost their case precisely over this against ... Amazon :-)

Re:Appillionaires?

[JAlexoi]

Yep, people that made a million apps. And all of them soundoards and other shit.

Re:Appillionaires?

[rta]

if you look carefully you'll note TFA says explicitly:

"Chris Stevens used to write reviews and make funny videos for CNET UK. He left to start an app company, Atomic Antelope, which made the smash-hit Alice for the iPad apps. Now he's written a book about the app development scene, Appillionaires. This is an exclusive extract."

So this is just self-serving masturbatory ego-stroking hipster scenester BS. Of course Angry Birds is right up there w/ penicillin in importance. No one had EVER written a mobile game before it's hard to even imagine society before it. sheesh.

Re:Appillionaires?

[gl4ss]

I have a feeling the author of the article made it up. There's a link in the article to a book on Amazon by the title of Appillionaires: Secrets from Developers Who Struck It Rich on the App Store which just happens to be by the author of the article. How about that. A total coincidence.

mod up. explains the articles existence _totally_. make up a word, make up a book, make up hype and hope some bozos buy the book to learn how to strike rich with soundboards.

Re:Appillionaires?

[TheRaven64]

Didn't we call them dot-com millionaires before Apple's second coming? And home game developers in the bubble before that? And garage entrepreneurs in the bubble before that (although, to be fair, that one was at least 50% hardware engineers). In each tech bubble a few people got very rich and a few more got quite rich - I don't remember any of them making programming (or circuit / IC design) cool though, especially not after the bubble ended.

Re:Appillionaires?

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course Angry Birds is right up there w/ penicillin in importance.

I can only wish Angry Birds would be important enough to be sold on prescription only (or on online pharmacies).

Re:Appillionaires?

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a feeling the author of the article made it up.

He did. Just like he completely made up the entire premise of this article.

Programmers started "getting cool" long before Apple rose from the grave to sell i-Devices. They got cool because video games became cool, and for the same reason- they entered the mainstream. There has not been any recent, sudden "Cool" factor (measured, of course, in Mega Fonzies) in regards to programmers, and certainly no correlation at all with the rise of the "App Market Stores".

Astorturf, plain and simple.

Re:Appillionaires?

[msauve]

So you're saying that those "Appillionaires" are just pulling your finger?

Re:Appillionaires?

[JoeMerchant]

I have a feeling the author of the article made it up. There's a link in the article to a book on Amazon by the title of Appillionaires: Secrets from Developers Who Struck It Rich on the App Store which just happens to be by the author of the article. How about that. A total coincidence.

If, instead of programming Apps, you bought a $1 lottery ticket for every hour of effort expended on programming Apps, would you get more, or less, millionaires in total?

I think it takes way more than 2 million programmer-hours of effort to net 1 million dollars from the App store (on the whole, taking all programmers into account, not just focusing on professional leeches like Zynga...)

Re:Appillionaires?

[Anonymous Coward]

hipster scenester BS.

I'm pretty sure neither of these words have to do with any of this.

Re:Appillionaires?

[Anonymous Coward]

Steve Jobs handed off a list of buzzwords like this to become famous after he died.

This article is all fluff and marketing from Apple.

Re:Appillionaires?

[sessamoid]

Ahem. They didn't lose the case. They failed to obtain injunctive relief. Not the same thing. The case has not been decided at this time. ;)

Re:Appillionaires?

[Anonymous Coward]

I did not realize they lost until I read your post! :D

Yeah, well

[Anonymous Coward]

I was a programmer before it was cool.

Damn!

[martin-boundary]

It's now suddenly cool to code.

I'm a CS professor, you insensitive clod!

Ugh

[the linux geek]

The first paragraph of that article was one of the stupidest things I've ever read.

Re:Ugh

[Chysn]

The first paragraph of that article was one of the stupidest things I've ever read.

Pssst... yeah, you. We don't actually READ the articles.

million dollar idea

[jordan314]

"Mention to someone that you make apps and their interest will pick up instantly." ...Because they have a "million dollar app idea" and they want you to design, program, test, and release it for them, and then they'll give you a cut.

Re:million dollar idea

[Monoman]

This is more likely the truth.

The way I see it so far is that Apple is winning in the portable device market but has yet to make any break into the personal computer market share significantly. Lots of iPods, iPhones and iPads are selling but not their computers in comparison. Apple's strategy seems to be to shift the home/personal market away from the need for personal computers all together and get the consumers to only need "i" devices. This shift may have a significant impact on who will be the next generation of programmers.

Think about it. How did you get started programming? On a home computer most likely. How does one program for these phones and tablets? They do it with a personal computer. If the consumer market no longer demands personal computers then there won't be one in nearly every home. Someone looking to program will be do it the old fashioned way, at schools and businesses because Apple computers are still too expensive for a lot of folks.

If this shift in personal computing does happen then it will only make it harder to learn programming, not easier. Apple idea is to make things simple. Perhaps too simple. I wonder what the percentage of Apple users are "techie" compared to the "techie" PC users. I can tell you that most Apple users I meet have no clue how computers work and are dead in the water when things don't work the way they should.

Could this be the early beginnings of our Idiocracy?

Re:million dollar idea

[geminidomino]

Because they have a "million dollar app idea" and they want you to design, program, test, and release it for them, and then they'll give you a cut.

I've had that conversation. And yet, every time it always seems to include the words "like Angry Birds*, but..."

Ask them what their million dollar idea offers that the original doesn't? Blank stare.

*Or some other uber-popular, well-entrenched bit of pap.

Re:million dollar idea

[JasterBobaMereel]

..winning in the Portable device market -

Do they have the largest part of the SmartPhone market - No

Do they have the largest part of the Laptop market - No

Do they have the largest part of the Tablet market - Yes but they have little or no competition in the artificial market they created

Music Player - Well the market is shifting, and most people have a music player on their phone now so if you count these then the iPod is a minute part of the market ... (From my experience I have has one mp3 player for 5 years, my friends have bought several (3 or more) iPods in this time due to breakage/battery issues, so I suspect their sales figures were inflated anyway?)

Re:million dollar idea

[coinreturn]

..winning in the Portable device market -

Do they have the largest part of the SmartPhone market - No

Do they have the largest part of the Laptop market - No

Do they have the largest part of the Tablet market - Yes but they have little or no competition in the artificial market they created

Music Player - Well the market is shifting, and most people have a music player on their phone now so if you count these then the iPod is a minute part of the market ... (From my experience I have has one mp3 player for 5 years, my friends have bought several (3 or more) iPods in this time due to breakage/battery issues, so I suspect their sales figures were inflated anyway?)

Hate much? I wish I could create an "artificial market" and rake in billions in sales.

Re:million dollar idea

[WillyWanker]

Unless you're a charismatic sociopathic narcissistic cult leader it's highly unlikely.

Re:million dollar idea

[asylumx]

My wife and I had an idea for an app. I'm not going to go into details on what it would do, but we just saw a commercial for Window 7 yesterday on TV and they were demonstrating an app that did almost exactly what our app would have done, although probably much better because they have thousands of programmers to throw at it.

So, I guess Windows 7 was my idea?

Anyway, we never wrote the app or attempted to patent the idea, so I'm not actually whining that Microsoft stole my idea -- since I never talked to anyone about it :) The point is, just like the parent post says, often times a "great new idea" is only great and new to you because you haven't seen where someone already did it, possibly better than you'd imagined.

Re:million dollar idea

[coinreturn]

Unless you're a charismatic sociopathic narcissistic cult leader it's highly unlikely.

That's quite a load of sour grapes over there on your plate.

Re:million dollar idea

[WillyWanker]

Yeah, I'm pissed that I didn't turn out to be a sociopathic narcissistic dead cult leader billionaire /s

Re:million dollar idea

[coinreturn]

Yeah, I'm pissed that I didn't turn out to be a sociopathic narcissistic dead cult leader billionaire /s

I think the billionaire part is what you're pissed about; the adjectives are just the proof of the piss.

Re:million dollar idea

[WillyWanker]

No, it's clear you've missed the point. I wouldn't want to be a billionaire if it required me to be a sociopathic narcissistic douchebag. So sorry, but no sour grapes here, just heaping tons of disdain.

Re:million dollar idea

[coinreturn]

No, it's clear you've missed the point. I wouldn't want to be a billionaire if it required me to be a sociopathic narcissistic douchebag. So sorry, but no sour grapes here, just heaping tons of disdain.

Whatever you have to tell yourself while choking down those grapes.

Re:million dollar idea

[Anonymous Coward]

So maybe the phenomenon that used to plague the life of the novelist - particularly if he/she had any renown - has migrated elsewhere. "I've got this great idea; you can write the book; we can split the profits."

To which the author would politely or less politely respond that they had already amassed five lifetimes' worth of great ideas, and suggest that the proposer go and write their own book.

Re:million dollar idea

[Anonymous Coward]

I interviewed to take over a friend's job a while ago as the main developer of a desktop application that was yet to be released. I looked at their application, their asking tag of $50, and figured out an inoffensive way to ask them why competitors wouldn't be a problem (because their application did absolutely nothing special, they licensed or copied as much of the engine as they could from third parties, and it wasn't even pretty to compensate for it). They said they had a distribution deal with Best Buy. So, while I know what you're saying and stopped looking at craigslist within the first week or two that I started, that approach does have successful analogs in the more traditional marketplace.

Re:million dollar idea

[drb226]

Assuming their idea is actually worth anything, just pull a Zuckerberg on them.

What self-respecting programmer

[CruelKnave]

would waste valuvable coding time by going to a par . . . ty? Am I saying that correctly?

Re:What self-respecting programmer

[CruelKnave]

Oh, preview button. Again I overlook your "valuve".

Re:What self-respecting programmer

[emj]

I think you mean parity, And it's not a was of time finding good ECC memories, parity is vital.

Re:What self-respecting programmer

[c0lo]

would waste valuvable coding time by going to a par . . . ty? Am I saying that correctly?

Me thinks you misspelled vulvalabium.

Re:What self-respecting programmer

[tixxit]

Not all of us are "uncool." I've been to many parties in my lifetime. It's gotten much easier to go lately, what with wireless networking and laptops capable of... wait -- what kind of party are you talking about?

on the contrary

[Hazel Bergeron]

Apple has made "programmers" more likely to be nothing more than businessmen who have read a few coding books.

Headline might as well me "Prostitution makes partners sexy".

Re:on the contrary

[makomk]

I think that comparison's probably a bit insulting to prostitutes, to be honest.

Re:on the contrary

[tigersha]

The only job where you lie in your back in dark corners and work with floppy cables is a network tech and a prostitute. And the prostitutes get more respect, more money and have satisfied customers.

Re:on the contrary

[jawahar]

I think programmers are like chefs.

Re:on the contrary

[ToasterMonkey]

Apple has made "programmers" more likely to be nothing more than businessmen who have read a few coding books.

Headline might as well me "Prostitution makes partners sexy".

What is your suggestion then, less efficiency in return for less gain? I mean the market demands sexy prostitute partners... wait... is there even a moral high ground to take on software development, because morals out of the picture, everyone would pay cash for good sex.

No

[koko]

Programmers have always been cool. No aside for kidding.

This reads like a dup from quite a few weeks ago, too. YAAS'ment stuck in some PR feedback that we have all come to know, expect, and HATE.

meh, must be like the 23423th geeks are cool

[gl4ss]

meh, must be like the 23423th geeks are cool story I've read - in 20 years or so.
I'm cool like a fool in a swimming pool anyhow, fucking ridiculous to say that apple did it though.

"mention someone that you make apps" and be sure that they'll bitch for work, you to work for them, or they'll ask for money or drugs.

Re:meh, must be like the 23423th geeks are cool

[Anonymous Coward]

Absolutely right. If anything, the WEB made computers cool. I'm not even convinced that programmers ARE seen as cool yet.

Re:meh, must be like the 23423th geeks are cool

[markkezner]

In my experience, if you tell them you make apps they'll glaze right over and start making assumptions about you. It rarely goes over very well, you can actually see the boredom grow in their face. If you're (un)lucky they'll ask you to fix their computer.

At this point in my life I would rather joke around and tell people some made up job, like that I'm a mattress quality control tester or that I carve names into gravestones. It makes for better conversation.

Re:meh, must be like the 23423th geeks are cool

[martin-boundary]

Tell 'em you're a farmer, and you grow app's.

Re:meh, must be like the 23423th geeks are cool

[markkezner]

That wouldn't be too far from the truth if I worked with genetic algorithms.

hackers

[nicholas22]

It was the 1960's hackers in MIT that made programming cool.

Free tech support!

[Anonymous Coward]

A lot of people have smart phones, computers, laptops, MP3 players, etc. All those devices will sooner or later need some kind of technical attention. You know how it is. Don't get buttered up only to be used!

  - jaded AC

Re:Free tech support!

[c0lo]

All those devices will sooner or later need some kind of technical attention.

U serious? Haven't yet heard of planned obsolescence? It's more likely to have large drops in prices.

Left alone

[Anonymous Coward]

Once upon a time I just had to say I was computer programmer at parties, and I would be happily left alone. Now I have to say i'm a climate change skeptic. Times change.

Re:Left alone

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep, never admit you're an astronaut.

Re:Left alone

[Anonymous Coward]

If you want to be alone why go to a party?

Money = Sexy

[Kohlrabi82]

I get it, when you sit in your basement hacking away at code potentially benefiting many people for free you are a socially unacceptable geek. As soon as you put together some graphics and make money from thousands of people you are the sex icon of the new computer era. It's not that perception has changed, but rather the contrary. Money and status derived from money is valued more than the work itself.

Re:Money = Sexy

[Anonymous Coward]

It's like now that Steve jobs is dead hes a humanitarian., and bill gates is a ruthless businessman. If you value public opinion then you're a fool.

on the main topic if you are in a job that is considered uncool you could easily lie and say you do something else. Because the kinda girls that think making apps is cool would believe you're an astronaut

Re:Money = Sexy

[jawahar]

True. Money has been the measure of success in the society.

THIEFS

[Anonymous Coward]

Now I officially hate apple. They are ALSO stealing this? WHEN ARE THEY GONNA STOP!!!!

PD: It is obvious that the big bang theory show did it all xD

Wishful thinking

[ablaze]

When it comes to the social sphere, it will always be much cooler to drink the beer, and not to brew it.

Re:Wishful thinking

[noobermin]

Perhaps one of the most insightful things I've read in a while. Thank you.

I don't want to be cool

[Required Snark]

I used to work in visual effects, and it was cool.

Now that I have gotten away from that world, I don't want to be cool. It gets in the way too much.

Where did my post just go?

[MichaelCrawford]

Slashdot has some manner of JavaScript that's meant to make the site work better on mobile devices, but it's totally borked on mi ios4.3.5 iPhone 4 and 3.2.2 iPad.

I typed out a post, previewed it, attempted to check a link but was taken to slashdot's homepage instead. After that I found that my post had disappeared into the ether.

It won't take long to reenter it from my MacBook pro after I superglue the shattered remnants of my iPhone back together.

In any case, the people who see me working on my iOS app, or those who I show it to, do think I'm pretty cool. "want to see my iPhone app?" is a great way to strike up conversations with complete strangers. Whenever I see someone with an iOS device I ask them to beta test it. Even if they're not up for that they are interested to discuss it.

I imagine lots of these people think I'm wealthy because I code for iPhones but in reality I'm totally busted because I go without paying work as much as I possibly can so I can focus on my own product.

Re:Where did my post just go?

[Anonymous Coward]

To be honest I could not think of something that screams "Dork, run away now" more than someone asking me if I want to see their app, and I am a developer.

Re:Where did my post just go?

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdot has some manner of JavaScript that's meant to make the site work better on mobile devices, but it's totally borked on mi ios4.3.5 iPhone 4 and 3.2.2 iPad.

I typed out a post, previewed it, attempted to check a link but was taken to slashdot's homepage instead. After that I found that my post had disappeared into the ether.

The Slashdot comment slider doesn't work on the HP Touchpad either.

Re:Where did my post just go?

[Anonymous Coward]

um, so... can I beta-test your app???

Cool?

[aaaaaaargh!]

Having had my fair share of "cool" nightlife for many years in a major European city that is very popular everywhere in the world, I can hereby attest that people who think of themselves as being "cool" tend to be morons.

Here is a little anecdote. While I was slacking around not finishing my studies I've once met a mathematician who was working on the mathematics of string theory and told me he was for many years getting up every morning at 8 o'clock, had a cup of tea (not coffee...bad for concentration), learned math the whole day long, and didn't have any social life (bad for concentration). He was incredibly smart but also really happy to finally have a beer with someone. I wouldn't say he was cool then. However, I'm pretty sure he is cool in another sense now, because he likely does something really interesting nowadays--something that halfway mature people will probably find "cool" although they cannot understand it.

So basically, what I want to say is: forget about the instant gratification of "coolness" and do what really interests you.

(Well, to be honest I never checked what this guy is doing now, so he could also just have become a cab driver.... hehhehe)

Re:Cool?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to be rude, but after reading all of that you sound un-cool and extremely boring.... I'd have to walk away from you at a party

Re:Cool?

[HopefulIntern]

Yes, I was "cool" once. Junior year of high school. It was exhausting, going to random places with people just to watch them smoke weed (I would not partake) and then go somewhere else.
In the end, it got in the way of doing things I wanted to do, and the payoff wasn't nearly worth it (if you are "cool" you can hang out with the hot girls but they still won't be interested if you aren't good looking).

Re:Cool?

[f()rK()_Bomb]

Both of ye are confusing popular and cool. At least where I'm from cool kids are like skateboarders and djs and shit, alternative people, and what ye are describing sounds more like the popular jock crowd.

if you have to ask...

[anonymous9991]

then no

When asked at parties what do I do, I answer

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a programmer, so that they just leave me alone. I say I write in Perl to those who persist, and they go away too.

If I needed attention so badly, I'd say I clean toilets, or am a funeral parlor, or kill for hire, or all at once.

Re:When asked at parties what do I do, I answer

[jimshatt]

I write Perl programs to kill funeral parlors on clean toilets. It's kind of a niche market...

Re:When asked at parties what do I do, I answer

[gzipped_tar]

Are you making a perl-based, hallucinogen-distorted variant of NetHack? I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Re:When asked at parties what do I do, I answer

[Required Snark]

Tell them you type for a living.

Whatever dude.

[MrEricSir]

I still program for System 7, but only because it's ironic.

Quite possibly the dumbest thing ever on /.

[Tridus]

And that's saying something. This is utter shit.

Programming stopped being something relegated to socially awkward types that nobody likes at least a decade ago, and really even longer then that. It was cool a long time ago. Then it wasn't.

You know what's happened now? Very little. When people use your stuff, they tend to be more interested in you. That's ALWAYS been true. Oh, and being loaded also helps, because money is sexy.

All they've done with this article is take a stereotype that wasn't true before, and said "hey, somehow Apple fixed it years before the product that fixed it existed! Aren't they awesome!?"

No. The only thing demonstrated here is how uncool and out of touch Slashdot is.

Credit where credit is due...

[Anonymous Coward]

... but let's not give Apple all the credit for everything. This has been a slow and creeping change since the mid-nineties at the latest; the first dot-com bubble put programmers on the social map, so to speak, and our job has been increasingly "cool" ever since.

Disagree.

[Halster]

Sorry but I just don't buy it. Social acceptance is likely to only be on the surface, scratch the surface and that person at the party will show the same interest as if you said you worked as a Customer Experience Enhancement Consultant. Keep talking and the look of interest will have moved to disinterest, then beyond that, to the look of someone who's just had a healthy whiff of chlorophyll.

The fact of the matter is, (some) apps are cool, but coding for a living isn't. Sure, some app developers have become rich, but most don't. Unless you've got more money than a small country noone will care beyond polite acknowledgement (and even then, maybe not, I imagine Bill Gates' money didn't make him any more interesting).

The upside is, chances are the other party goers jobs are probably some sort of administrative role or a traditional profession that isn't at all exciting. You won't care what they do either, because most people's jobs are boring. Not everyone can be, or wants to be a Frog Shaker.

Re:Disagree.

[Larryish]

Bill Gates's money made him more interesting to hookers. And also mooches. Don't forget the mooches.

Re:Disagree.

[Anonymous Coward]

Chloroform.

Re:Disagree.

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with you, but will also add that when people get just a little more knowledgeable, and it sinks in how 99.9% of the hopeful Apple ecosystem app writers have as much chance of striking it rich as a schoolyard basketball ace has of getting into the NBA, and that Apple rapes anyone who manages to sell anything on their store to the tune of 30%, while stealing their ideas and then competing with them, they'll revert to their former disdain of programmers, and then some.

Re:Disagree.

[Anonymous Coward]

They are thinking of Richard Pryor in Superman III

Programming is cool

Writing is a dog's life, but for some the only life worth living.

Re:Disagree.

[Anonymous Coward]

s/chlorophyll/chloroform/

Re:Disagree.

[Hatta]

The fact is, nobody really wants to hear about anyone's job. They have to pay you to be there, you wouldn't do it if they didn't, but when you have free time and the attention of other people that's what you're going to choose to talk about? Please, tell me about your hobbies instead.

Re:Disagree.

[mjpvirtual]

I suppose someone who gets a "healthy whiff of chlorophyll" becomes green with envy.

Re:Disagree.

[Culture20]

The fact is, nobody really wants to hear about anyone's job. They have to pay you to be there, you wouldn't do it if they didn't, but when you have free time and the attention of other people that's what you're going to choose to talk about? Please, tell me about your hobbies instead.

One of my favorite hobbies is programming.

Re:Disagree.

[Halster]

Hahaha, oops! Er, that's for programmers who eat a lot of greens!

Craig's List job ads offering equity

[MichaelCrawford]

If they really do have a million dollar idea and you can get by without pay, getting paid in equity is the best way to get rich.

But if their idea is so valuable, why do they need to find business partners on craigslist?

Re:Craig's List job ads offering equity

[geekoid]

because an idea does not sell it's self, and if you don't have contact in the financial area of business, you are stuck.

Apple schmapple

[jholyhead]

Programmers have always been cool. What they are today, is fashionable.

They made programmers cool, but programs suck.

[Anonymous Coward]

The signal-to-noise ratio in the Apple app store is amazingly low (this is also true in the Android market). For every useful app, there are seemingly hundreds that are useless and/or simply stupid.

Thanks Apple, but we were fine as we were!

[FBeans]

Even if this was true, and programmer's were now considered "cool", Apple wouldn't be the reason. Apple has managed to presuade a lot of people that a "good" product is what they need, and choice and variation and controll over their products is not needed. But I don't think they have made Programmers cool. Not to stab at Apple, they area great buissness, but then so is Ryanair. As every generation is born, the knowledge and understanding of computing in gerenal increases. Programming is taught at younger age and it's now a socially understood concept, and now it's understood I think there is an increased respect for programs and hence programmers. Which is good, I guess.

Why is this a "programming" article?

[binarstu]

The article gets started by claiming that, because of the App Store, programming "is now one of the most stylish and dramatically lucrative jobs in the world." The author's evidence? The "the two cousins who made Angry Birds" and "the brothers who made Doodle Jump". Right. There were no outlier cases of a few lucky people getting ridiculously rich off of software until Apple came along with their App Store.

The rest of the article goes more or less downhill from there. No real evidence for anything, just a few anecdotes, lots of baseless speculation, and unfettered fawning over Apple.

I could accept this if it were categorized in the "humor" section.

Re:Why is this a "programming" article?

[Anonymous Coward]

I have enjoyed programming since I was 7-8 years old. I still kind of do. However, it has never been my whole life. There's one great thing growing up in computer generations. Since I turned 20, I've been traveling the world while working on the side. Since all I need for my work is a computer and an internet access, I can do it on the road. Along the way I've met lots of interesting people (and especially girls) who I've all told to that I do programming for a living and it's also how I can travel around the world by bring my usb jewel and live on the road. If anything, that has made people interested. And I really don't myself as an uncool guy, nor do all the women I've met along.

Re:Why is this a "programming" article?

[Anonymous Coward]

apple to programming have same as sea horse to horses.

Has Apple Made Programmers Cool?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, the Apple ][ changed a lot for us programmers.

What is this App Store they are talking about?

Re:Has Apple Made Programmers Cool?

[NJRoadfan]

Whats sad is some iOS programmers likely don't even know what an Apple II is, let alone how to program it. Its a great teaching platform to learn on though. The system a bit quirky at the low level due to Woz's hackjobs for cost savings, but its simple enough to figure it out quickly.

Hey! Something cool has happened!

[Tomsk70]

Let's find a way to make this attributable to Apple, because all the apple-owners will then read it to reinforce how *they've* made a difference!

In other words, another slow day at Cnet - what bothers me more is that Slashdot takes this sort of speculation and repeats it as 'news' - which is a bit worrying on a site that has a motto of 'stuff that matters'.

Superheroes... right.

[Anonymous Coward]

...

Interesting product- cool, programming- not cool

[hism]

I think creating anything that someone values would appear 'cool' to them because it relates to their life in some way. For instance, creating the iPhone is cool because they use it every day. Getting into the details of programming an operating system for the phone, talking about the kernel's scheduler, etc, will never be cool. The same way that rock music is cool, but an in-depth conversation about the intricacies of music theory at a party is decidedly not cool.

That's not how iDe ices work at all

[MichaelCrawford]

The popularity of Mac desktop hardware varies dramatically by region. Hardly anyone uses macs in Atlantic Canada but they are everywhere in British Columbia as well as where I live now in Washington state.

iOS devices are totally useless without a destop computer. My brand new iPad wouldn't even boot the first time I tried to use it until I plugged it into a computer with an Internet connection. That really sucked as the place I was staying at did not have reliable Internet.

iOS devices sync themselves with iTunes on just one computer. You can sync to another computer but all the data from your first computer will be deleted first.

While you can purchase apps directly from devices, you have to run iTunes to register for an app store account. A friend came close to returning her iPhone for a refund until I figured out that the fact that she ran ubuntu on her Mac meant that she could not use iTunes.

Clearly iOS devices are meant to drive computer sales not eliminate them.

Re:That's not how iDe ices work at all

[Anonymous Coward]

Except for the fact that the latest iOS does not need to be connected to a computer any more. It was one of the features for which they had a whole section in their presentation. They found there was a whole market with people who didn't have a computer or need a computer, they only need an phone and maybe an pad.

Re:That's not how iDe ices work at all

[Trolan]

iOS5 detaches the computer requirement entirely. You setup/activate without iTunes and can sync with iCloud.

Re:That's not how iDe ices work at all

[JAlexoi]

Are you saying that post-PC era came about post-Jobs? /i

Re:That's not how iDe ices work at all

[spire3661]

Only on the surface. You still need itunes for media managment unless you go the whole cloud route. Its infuriating that I cant download video directly to my ipad as easily as i do from the apple store. Flat out you HAVE to have itunes unless you buy everything from the store.

Re:That's not how iDe ices work at all

[Trolan]

So write an app for that. Apps can happily download data to the device independent of the App Store, within their own filesystem space. You just can't add anything to the system media libraries. Or play it streaming from something like Plex running on a local network media computer.

Re:That's not how iDe ices work at all

[spire3661]

"you just cant add it to the system media libraries" You dont see this as a huge problem? Even if I write my own app, it will NEVER stand on the same footing as the video app. I cant make seamless experiences because Apple says users are too stupid to manage files.

"Appillionaire"

[Anonymous Coward]

"Appillionaire?!" REALLY?! That doesn't exactly roll off the tongue. Why not "Appercenter" or "I will be looking for work in 5 years when this fad begins to fade."

Re:"Appillionaire"

[Anonymous Coward]

Aspergillionaire would a good alternative.

Ah, the Journalist Reality Distortion Field

[Rogerborg]

Journalist - specifically columnists - live in a social media bubble, mostly interacting with other columnists, PR bunnies, socialites and assorted wasters and parasites, among whom iProducts are essentially de rigour. Daaaahling, surely you're not still using that palaeolithic iPhone 3, one might as well just bash two rocks against one's head until one is tempted to vote Republican. (snorts of laughter, clink of glasses)

Among their social whirl, I'm sure that iApp iDevelopers are like adorable little nerd godlings, but I don't think we can generalise from that to the real world.

Re:Ah, the Journalist Reality Distortion Field

[Anonymous Coward]

Really? Journalists, PR bunnies, and iProducts fanbois voting Republican?
Someone is confused.

Re:Ah, the Journalist Reality Distortion Field

[Hognoxious]

iProducts are essentially de rigour.

Learn French? There's an app for that!

Missing the obvious

[Chrisq]

Millionaires are cool nomatter what they do. I saw a program where the averagely attractive (being generous) easyjet entrepreneur Stelios Haji-Ioannou was discussing really boring things like margins, volumes, etc. with his business manager in an airport lounge when a lot of young and attractive females came to get his signature - because he is an unmarried billionaire! I am pretty sure that a convenience store manager holding a similar conversation would have been ignored.

Already dying at the time

[Anonymous Coward]

That perception was already dying several years before Apple's app-store came out as *using* computers all the time became more pervasive in our culture.

There was a time I would have agreed with you

[MichaelCrawford]

But presenting myself in a way that is simultaneously innocently naive as well as totally shameless can be captivating to others.

No..

[Anonymous Coward]

No.

We have always been

[Pf0tzenpfritz]

socially adequate, Not our fault that "society" stinks!! Fsck you!! #+ø*!! I Cleaning woman?!! CLEANING WOMAN?!

Developers, developers, developers!

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft made developers cool!

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Digital Janitor

[Anonymous Coward]

My co-worker describes himself as a "digital janitor" at parties (after first just saying "janitor" and watches the response), as he works in IT.

I'm cool just now?

[shadowrat]

I don't know what world the journalists have been living in. I've always been cool. Sure being athletic and having a winning smile helps, but people have always admired my coding skills. Maybe the writers just graduated high school and realized that, hey, someone who can be productive is cool.

"Programming is now socially acceptable"

[oji-sama]

Wait, I can finally tell my mother?

Big fat wallet

[velco]

AppStore millionaires or other kinds of millionaires ... big fat wallet have always been cool.

Yes,

[KraxxxZ01]

Apple invented techno music, and was working on cure for cancer. They built pyramids too, but everyone knows that.

Being an App Designer Hasn't Made Me Cooler

[sarbonn]

I'll just come out and say it, but being an app designer hasn't made me cooler. Sure, people don't run away when I say I'm an app designer (as they did when I used to say I was a programmer). But when the inevitable question of "so what kinds of things do you design" comes up, no matter how I phrase the answer, they lose interest immediately. The point is: People will act like it's a lot cooler, but they still don't want to hear about the details.

Definitely not for me

[gzipped_tar]

The ones who made programming cool are my schoolteacher when I was 9-10 yrs old, my father who was a coding enthusiastic, and the old wizards from whom I learned the Right Way. It has always been cool.

It's Cyclical

[Phoenix666]

Being a programmer was cool back during the Dot-Com days too. Everyone assumed you were about to become another instant millionaire. Then Buy.com, I believe it was, imploded and set off the chain reaction that left a lot of those "cool" programmers unemployed and decidedly uncool for a long time afterward. The Pollyanna lesson I would usually leap to draw from that is to do what you love no matter how "cool" others think it is.

But now watching the 1% the obvious answer in America is, duh, to remember to bribe as many Congressmen as you can while the going is good to make sure you get bailed out when the bubble bursts so you can immediately reinflate the bubble using Chinese money and the sweet, sweet vapor given off by the combustion of the hopes and dreams of millions of future Americans and a country that might have been all the while getting even more fabulously rich than before. Rinse, repeat.

There's definitely some truth here.

[mosb1000]

When I mention database programming, people's eyes gloss over. When I say I'm making a game for the iPad, they're like "really? can you show me how you do that." It's like night and day. It's not that programming is cool, it's that the iOS devices are cool, and their coolness has somehow managed to extend to developing software for them. Maybe because apps are such a huge part of the user experience.

Re:There's definitely some truth here.

[Hognoxious]

When I say I'm making a game for the iPad, they're like "really? can you show me how you do that."

I'd be fascinated to know what your answer is, and how far you get into it before the listener regrets asking.

For the record, my answer would be "No, I can't".

Re:There's definitely some truth here.

[geekoid]

"For the record, my answer would be "No, I can't"."

What a douche. A chance to talk about science, and math, and frame it in away people who wouldn't normal care are interested.
But, hey you couldn't look down on them if the understood what you did. could you?

Re:There's definitely some truth here.

[mosb1000]

People will usually stick with it for a few minutes. Just until their curiosity is satisfied. There's nothing wrong with that. The more people know about this kind of thing the better.

Ummm, no

[WillyWanker]

Clearly the author and I go to very different parties.

So Apple is like a Frat

[morgauxo]

You can pay a bunch of money to be cool rather than find your own friends elsewhere.

No

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple has made Apple's programmers cool. This is not the same thing as making all programmers cool.

As a programmer, let me be the first to say ...

[Anonymous Coward]

God help us.

Cinic

[Anonymous Coward]

Just to make sure I have the story straight: 80s - not cool, 90s cool, 2000s not cool, 2010s cool? I suppose you can see it by the periodic influx of people with no talent relevant to the industry...

It's always been cool

[Anonymous Coward]

It really has always been cool to be a programmer. I was always very open about my projects, and never found myself short of an audience to brag/talk about it with. What it comes down to is whether or not the people are interested in what the software does.

For example: if you were to discuss how the code for a game works to a gamer, they'd likely listen because they play those games and wouldn't mind hearing some internals that might shed some light on tricks they can try in-game. But giving that explanation to someone that has no interest in gaming, well you'll probably just put them to sleep.

mmm, i seriously doubt it

[Anonymous Coward]

Wasn't Ballmer the one that screamed "Developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers" while he was sweating like a pig?

Apple made

[Oswald McWeany]

Apple made being kicked out of Eden cool.

Uhhhhh yea.....

[Anonymous Coward]

I love it how people try to give Apple credit, but it really has nothing to do with Apple.
I've never touched one, so all my coding amounts to zero on that scale. But for a laugh, read the first part, and then the second.

CNET suggests that Apple has totally changed the general public's perception of programmers: It's now suddenly cool to code. No matter what platform you're on.

Hmmmm...No matter what platform you're on... (Apple has totally changed the etc etc)

No

[Anonymous Coward]

No.

It has made a generation of hipsters think they are geek coders. I suppose it could be worse. I suppose Microsoft could have made a generation of douchebags think they are geek coders. If my lab was filled with douchebags trying to code WinPhone apps instead of stupid hipsters trying to code iPhone apps, well...

Well f*ck that.

Meatspace Meetups

[Tenebrousedge]

It's possible that slashdot should add that information to the profile section. It's also possible that there's no way the slashdot web devs would be able to implement that in a useful manner, so perhaps someone should start slashdot meetup.com groups in major cities. I would quite like to meet other slashdotters, but Panama is not a conducive locale. What's the best way to encourage real-world interaction amongst ourselves?

So this article says that a profession is only

[PJ6]

socially acceptable if it's possible to make millions and millions of dollars doing it? Oh had I only known, I should have gone into the finance industry to be really popular!

grow up!

[sribe]

This is an astonishing change from what a programmer in the 80s could have expected in reaction to their job description.'

Oh, bullshit. Unlike most of you, I was actually doing this in the 80s, and people were interested to hear about what I did. Sheesh, the 80s was when this industry created its first billionaires, and believe me, people found billions of dollars as cool back then as they do now!

Re:grow up!

[geekoid]

Programming in the 80-'s was awesome. It was all new, it was just starting to impact the average user.

Then trade schools killed the industry respect.

Programming is not cool

[Anonymous Coward]

Programming is not cool. You know what's cool? A billion dollars. That's what the article is about... a few people who made a billion dollars selling (x) where x happens to be programming related. If you are the heir to the dixie cup fortune and inherit a billion dollars at age 22 you will be cool also (to all the people who only care about money, which is what this article is talking about).

Victory of the Nerds, huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

How long have (bad) Journalists been pushing that story? Mid-80ies? Mid-70ies, maybe?

"on their macbook pros"

[damn_registrars]

Why is it that such an expensive piece of hardware is given to a kid any ways? When I was a kid I built my own computer and had a whopping 1mb of system ram when I first booted it and installed DOS. Granted I wasn't compiling anything at the time, but where does this sense of entitlement come from? You shouldn't need anywhere near that kind of expensive hardware to write code for a handheld device.

Yes Apple Did

[mmontuori]

I think apple did make programmers cool, at least they started, now google is continuing is a better fashion. http://www.montuori.net/

No more so than Whiz Kids did

[kiwimate]

I heard exactly the same refrain about Whiz Kids in the 80s.

People in any industry always have a very different perception than people outside that industry.

Of course!

[hesaigo999ca]

Angry birds, can you even imagine how much at 99cents per download, 500 million downloads equals in cash?

Enough to make Angry birds2!

Deadliest Catch

[guybrush3pwood]

On a unrelated topic, "Deadlieast Catch" has made fishing in the northern seas under the constant risk of death extremely cool, and can get you laid any day of the week.

Dream on

[Anonymous Coward]

Programmers will never be cool....

Programming Always Was Cool, and Always Will Be.

[GiantRobotMonster]

If people don't realise that, that's not my problem.

What's annoying me now is that it is hard to have a discussion related to *programming* without going over all the Appzillionaire rubbish first.

No.

[JustAnotherIdiot]

It was my understanding that the popularization of gaming is what made programmers "cool".

Re:Interesting product- cool, programming- not coo

[Hognoxious]

For instance, creating the iPhone is cool because they use it every day.

Most people take a dump once a day, but that doesn't mean working in a toilet factory is cool.

By dissociation, perhaps?

[Sir Realist]

Apple made real programmers cool... to other programmers, by dragging all the wannabe assemblyline tinkertoy engineers out of the "programmer" bucket and rebranding them "App Designers". (Don't forget the capitals; because They're Desperately Important.)

Its nice when you make a label popular enough that the marketing droids will brand themselves with it - saves you having to work out that they're fakes on your own.

Writing an article saying "we are finally cool"...

[prometx42]

...that is, like, so not cool...

No

[geekoid]

but they will take credit for it.

Laughable

[makoto149]

Apple has made programmers cool? Um, no. The very idea is sort of laughable.

What has happened is that technology has proliferated, meaning it's in the hands of more people than ever before. When people find out you are involved in technology, they see you involved in something that touches their lives. That's it.

Of course, most people are brain-dead cattle, following the herd, and really have no idea that there's a difference between a programmer and the Geek Squad guys at Best Buy who look down their noses at everyone for $10/hour.

A typical conversation with someone I know might go like this:

Them: "So what do you do for a living?"

Me: "I write software."

Them: "Oh, neat. Hey, my computer keeps popping up this message about Elbonian midget porn or something. What do you think it is?"

Me: "I really have no idea. Probably a virus. I am a programmer."

Them: "Oh, wow, like those guys at Apple. They are suddenly so cool. I'll bet you get laid all the time!"

Okay, I totally made up that last part. Most people have no idea what a programmer is, unless they've seen "The Matrix" and then they think I wear a cheap suit and sit at a desk waiting for FedEx packages (but still have no idea what a programmer, um, program writer, is).

I guess what I'm really trying to say is: I HATE SAUERKRAUT. That's all I'm really trying to say.

It's about time!

[The Car]

Finally! How did CNET know the only reason I program is to look cool in the eyes of people who have trouble understanding boolean logic?

Really? How short of a memory do you have?

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you not remember all of the high bonuses that developers received in the 90s to develop software for Windows/Unix?
Do you not remember the social aspect of developers back in the 90s? Who used/ran the BBSs?

It is amazing how much credit Jobs/Apple gets for being the "initiator" for what is happening, then again, people though Microsoft Word was the best/most amazing word processor. It seems people are as gullible today as they were in the 90s.

Programmers made Apple cool

[donberryman]

also designers and marketers and ...

Oh God

[Barlo_Mung_42]

I was coding way before the app store was big. Does that make me some kind of hipster?

pecunia no olet

[Anonymous Coward]

money, money, money, money, money, money, money, money, money, money, ..... ;-)

Wait a sec

[Anonymous Coward]

I saw the Foo Fighters at a concert the other day, and when Dave Grohl appeared, everyone cheered wildly for him. When he ran by people reached out for the chance to barely touch him. Granted I have not been programming as long as he's been rocking, but when can I expect this kind of reaction?

"coolness" happens about once a decade

[peter303]

1980's A.I. developers were "cool". 1990s Web developers were "cool". The public sees nifty stuff being invented and programmers getting rich. But then students learn this is not as easy as getting rich on Wall Street, so they bail.

Obligatory Dilbert

[Shompol]

http://search.dilbert.com/search?w=april+16&x=0&y=0

Self-loathing

[wfolta]

I fear for the level of self-loathing that Anyone-but-Apple fanboys will be subjected to as a result of this. The desire to be cool is strong... will it overcome the desire to hate Apple?

No, it didn't.

[m1ndcrash]

Being healthy, working out and not looking like a stereotypical coder and having tons of cash from completed projects without revealing your income source :D

Suckers

[Animats]

Game programming is "cool". It also sucks as a job. Too many people think it's cool to be a game programmer and are willing to put up with miserable working hours and low pay. (Much the same is true of Hollywood, home of the actress/model/waitress. Median acting income of SAG members is below poverty line.)

"App" programming is in some ways worse. Most apps generate little or no revenue. Writing "apps" on speculation is a sucker bet. One Apple wants to encourage.

No.

[danwesnor]

Programmers are not cool. App developers are cool.

Car Analogy

[DarwinSurvivor]

Restoring a vintage car has been considered cool for as long as there have been vintage cars. Mechanics are still not considered cool.

Today's youth

[Anarchduke]

has too much freaking allowance if they can afford MacBook Pros

What?

[stevenfuzz]

1. I'm not an apple fan, at all, so I will just skip the whole apple love change the world sparkly sprinkles one-button BS part of this. In fact, I'm of the opinion that Apple makes technology less cool to the people who thought technology was cool to start off with. 2. I'm a developer. 10 Years. I work for a hip company in LA. Still not cool. No one is like, holy crap it's so cool that you can program an app that makes the sound of beer pouring when you tilt your phone. When people ask me what I do at a party / bar, it usually ends with a question about how to fix their printer. Not cool. 3. I was never very accepted into the "Geek" circle. I remember in my freshman year, living on a 'special' dorm floor with the best programmers in the school, my girl-gettin' party'n ways just did not fly. When they would work with me in groups or on projects, the "geeks" would say stuff like... "wow, I'm really surprised you came up with that algorithm" or "I didn't realize you already knew how to program". In general it seams harder to get in with the Geeks then with the "cool" crowd. 4. I'm a social person and I program better in a quiet dark room. Programming can obviously be a socialized process, but if I'm running down a bug or creating a complex new feature I don't want anyone being social with me. Period. That's what meetings are for. 5. Programming is far too complicated and inaccessible to be cool. Cool is something that is available to the median and celebrated by the masses. Maybe phone apps are cool, but not the method by which they are built. And I don't consider wordpress or html programming. 6. Anyway, if you start programming to be "cool" it's likely that "cool" isn't in the cards for you.

Exactly!

[Anonymous Coward]

The perception of programmers hasn't changed at all. The writer of the original article made the mistake that he and others like him are cool because they're writing apps for iOS. No, people are paying attention to him at dinner parties because he's rich. It's probably the reason he was invited to those parties in the first place.

3th??

[Anonymous Coward]

Three-th?? Are you serious?

Well

[jakartus]

Some would say the movie "The Social Network" helped

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/11/technology/11computing.html?pagewanted=all
http://jezebel.com/5667829/why-programming-is-hip-again-hint-its-not-the-bong-hits
http://www.chron.com/business/technology/article/That-Hollywood-touch-gilds-computer-science-1691321.php

Thinking about being cool is not cool

[Anonymous Coward]

People who are concerned about being cool are not - almost by definition. Worrying about being cool indicates a desperate neediness to be popular - the opposite of cool.

Get rea;l

[jawahar]

Writing software are selling software are mutually exclusive

Farmlands

[jawahar]

How many of you think working in farmlands is cool?

great

[Anonymous Coward]

Great that's all we need bunch of kids running around saying they are programmers making somthing incredabily simple (but for a phone) thinking they are super stars and going to become very rich, only to find out no one wants it unless its free. hopefully they all stay on apples because thats the only cool computer company.

Yeah right

[tehcyder]

From TFS: 'Previous generations strapped on electric guitars and fought for super-stardom in sweaty dive bars, but today's youth boot up Xcode on their MacBook Pros.'

The two personality types and skill sets are orthogonal. The nerdy elements of being a musician are largely unrelated to success, fame and the desire to perform/show off.

Money

[tehcyder]

Making lots of money off developing something like Facebook or Farmville is only cool in the same way that investment banking is cool, that is, not at all.

explain to me

[Anonymous Coward]

what apple cores have to do with producing code

Suddenly???

[dhempy]

"Suddenly???"

m0r3 31173 7h4n u

[Anonymous Coward]

What a noob question CNet user sheesh they are almost as bad as AOL muggles.

exactly what we need

[KingBenny]

programmers in it for the cool ... next thing you know 90% of applications is cool looking crap, 9% great looking eyecandy and almost 1% useful, how cool would that be, the best wizards hardly ever leave their ivory tower, not in the books, not in the real , the others are just wannabe's and salesmen with a enough knowledge to bluff the common man into a sense of need