Slashdot Mirror


Ask Slashdot: Entry-Level Robotics Kits For Young Teenagers?

An anonymous reader writes "So, it's that wonderful time of year again. Instead of buying the latest, greatest whiz-bang, overpriced fad toy of the year, I thought I might try my hand at corrupting my nieces (ages 12 and 14) in a nerdier direction with some sort of introductory robotics kit. They have no programming experience, and part of my idea is that it would be encouraging for them to see interactions of their code that they write with the real-world by being able to control some actuators and read sensors. The first thing that comes to mind is Lego Mindstorms, but I find them a bit on the pricey side of things. My budget falls between $40 and $100, and the ideal kit would focus more on the software side than on soldering together circuits. I'd be looking for a kit that provides an easy to learn API and development tools that will work with a standard Windows PC. I don't mind spending a few afternoons helping them out with the basics, but I'd like for them to be able to be able to explore on their own after grasping the initial concepts. Has anybody gotten their younger relations into programming through robotics, and what kits might you recommend?"

153 comments

  1. OWI robotic arm by rwa2 · · Score: 5, Informative

    About a year ago I was looking for something similar to the Radio Shack Armitron I had as a kid. I ended up getting an OWI robotic arm for my kids, which is pretty cheap at $35 on Amazon, also has a USB control board for an extra $15 or so. You assemble it yourself, but it's fairly easy as plastic models go, even relative to Legos, and the build quality is pretty high for the price.

    There's even code. to get the USB control stuff working under *nix . I had to make a few minor tweaks to get it to compile on my Linux box, and it's a bit basic, but it worked! Would be fairly trivial to build a web interface to it along with a webcam. The only downside is that it still draws power from D-cells, but that's easy enough to live with.

    1. Re:OWI robotic arm by Kilbanio · · Score: 1

      I second the recommendation of the OWI Robotic Arm Edge. I have used it with hundreds of students every summer most between the age of 7 and 13. It works great. If you do build it you should help them read the directions. They tend to miss little things. To save yourself from frustration later on find the baggie with only one metal pin or axle. Remove that axle and the four small tapping screws and place them in a ziplock baggie. Give the ziplock with the parts back to the builder when they have successfully reached the stage where they are building the gripper. That axle is about a mm shorter than all the others and is easy to use in one of four gearboxes that raise and rotate the arm.

    2. Re:OWI robotic arm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      thanks for this-- I have one already in my bedroom in an amazon box awaiting the end of the week.. good tip.

  2. My son is 13... by Trip6 · · Score: 1

    ...and has shown NO interest in this. I too anxiously await recommendations from /.ers!

    --
    I hate being bipolar; it's awesome!
    1. Re:My son is 13... by tomhudson · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Buy them something THEY want or would appreciate. The goal should be to please them, not your own inner child.

      What next - "Gee, *I* would like a new chainsaw, so I think I'll buy one for my wife/girlfriend/significant other" ...

    2. Re:My son is 13... by AliasMarlowe · · Score: 0

      What next - "Gee, *I* would like a new chainsaw, so I think I'll buy one for my wife/girlfriend/significant other" ...

      By your logic, my wife has been dropping hints for years that she'd like some power tools. At least, she keeps buying power tools for me for birthday, Christmas, Fathers' day, etc.

      --
      Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
    3. Re:My son is 13... by obarel · · Score: 2

      I didn't get the impression that he was saying "everybody's buying other people stuff that they secretly want".
      He only said "don't buy other people stuff they have no interest in, just because you do".

      How do I know the write is a "he"? Educated guess.

    4. Re:My son is 13... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You're wrong, of course. The best gifts open up new worlds for the recipient. Do you think I wanted a Radio Shack Electronics Lab when I was a kid? I had no idea. But I spent hours on that thing learning the basics of how circuits worked. I've received gifts that similarly unlocked doors to things I'd never thought about. Sometimes they were merely provoking, other times I ignored them completely. But simply filling in the checkboxes on someone's wishlist is the exact wrong way to go about gift-giving.

    5. Re:My son is 13... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A Spanish and/or Chinese language course.

      Because that's where we're headed.

      Spanese?
      Chinish?

    6. Re:My son is 13... by tomhudson · · Score: 2

      How do I know you have signatures turned off? Educated guess :-)

    7. Re:My son is 13... by tomhudson · · Score: 1
      Nobody's advocating a "fill-in-the-checkbox" approach. What I *am* saying, is think about what *they* would enjoy. Here's part of the last line:

      Has anybody gotten their younger relations into programming through robotics

      So there's your motive - "I want them to get into programming". A field that has a surplus of labour, terrible working conditions, is extremely easy to outsource, and will eventually be mostly rendered obsolete by AI. Frankly, while I was disappointed at the time, I'm now glad my daughters never caught the programming bug.

      Might as well recommend buggy whips - there'll always be demand for a high quality buggy whip maker!

    8. Re:My son is 13... by obarel · · Score: 1

      No, I have no excuse this time, just blindness and stupidity...

      Never mind, better luck next time guessing the obvious ;-)

    9. Re:My son is 13... by gtbritishskull · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I completely disagree with you. For one, I do not think you should avoid teaching a child something because you are afraid that they will want to do it when they are older. I think you should expose them to as much as possible so that they can make the decision for themselves.

      Also, the "programming bug" is not a bad thing to catch. While I agree that being a code monkey is probably a bad idea, and going to be even more of a bad idea in the future, for the reasons you mention, almost EVERY other field can benefit from programming knowledge. Physicists might have to know how to program (to analyze data). Engineers might need to know how to program CNC. Even librarians might need to know how to program to make SQL queries. Computers are used in just about every field. Knowing how to program is a value-add.

      You should try broadening your kids horizons instead of narrowing their vision. If you have been a good enough parent then they should know how to make the right decisions. If not, then you probably shouldn't be telling them how to live their life anyways.

    10. Re:My son is 13... by tomhudson · · Score: 1
      Please don't sweat it - you wouldn't believe how many people make the same mistake (and sometimes I let them keep making it because it's funny for those watching who have sigs turned on. It can lead to some really interesting discussion threads :-)

      Even on Tuesdays. On second thought, make that especially on Tuesdays.

    11. Re:My son is 13... by tomhudson · · Score: 2

      Hopefully in the future, SQL will die the death it so richly deserves. After 40 years, you'd think we'd have come up with something better ... :-)

      Also, if they want to "discover programming", there's this great tool that they probably already have access to, called, hmmm, wait a minute, it's coming to me ... oh, right, the Internet. And if you google for "learn how to program", the first unsponsored hit gives a realistic perspective teach yourself programming in 10 years.

      But seriously, if they want to learn how to program, there are already so many opportunities right in front of them - even basic things like a spreadsheet to keep track of their allowance or "cheat" on their homework - are a simple start. No need for any "occasion."

      You don't want to come off as "the dork who always gives these awful geek presents". That would have the same negative halo effect as trying to introduce someone to linux by exposing them to an RMS speech and then having RMS sleep on their couch. It's like a previous article where someone wrote about how they gave DVDs with open-source software on them, and wondered why people weren't bowled over by it.

      You really don't want to be *that* person. Even *that* person doesn't want to be *that* person.

      Gift giving for nieces is simple. When in doubt - give chocolate. Because chocolate never goes out of style. If you've ever tasted some of the more expensive specialty chocolates, you'll know what I mean. Think of the sweatiest, dirtiest, raunchiest, kinkiest sex you ever had - and multiply by two. It's that good.

    12. Re:My son is 13... by EdIII · · Score: 1

      Gift giving for nieces is simple. When in doubt - give chocolate. Because chocolate never goes out of style. If you've ever tasted some of the more expensive specialty chocolates, you'll know what I mean. Think of the sweatiest, dirtiest, raunchiest, kinkiest sex you ever had - and multiply by two. It's that good.

      3 little observations.

      1) You're giving your nieces something better than the best sex you ever had? I don't know if that is just really perverted, or the best Aunt ever. All relative I guess.

      2) This is Slashdot. Anything multiplied by zero is... ummmm. zero.

      3) Can you post a link to those specific chocolates? 7 days till Christmas so there is still time left for ordering.

    13. Re:My son is 13... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      My son is 13...

      Of course he isn't, he's 13! Get him something he is interested in at his age. For example, you can't go wrong with a Hustler mag and a box of Kleenex. You could go with an online subscription, but that is opening up to more viruses than a cat house full of meth whores.

    14. Re:My son is 13... by tomhudson · · Score: 1

      Actually, it was one of my nieces who gave them to me. Totally awesome - we were still talking about them 6 months later. The sort of chocolate that you don't want to share, but you absolutely HAVE to! Unfortunately, I don't remember the name - it was a specialty store, so it's not like it's something you can just pick up at the local mall. (If I had seen them ...)

    15. Re:My son is 13... by westlake · · Score: 1

      Buy them something THEY want or would appreciate. The goal should be to please them, not your own inner child.

      That is the first rule.

      The second rule is that "you get what you pay for."

      LEGO Mindstorms --- for example --- isn't cheap as projects get more ambitious, but it is well designed, highly regarded and has a strong user community.

    16. Re:My son is 13... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      3 little observations.

      1) You're giving your nieces something better than the best sex you ever had? I don't know if that is just really perverted, or the best Aunt ever. All relative I guess.

      Or we could have an issue with frame of reference. Someone who has their pecker cut off probably wasn't having that fantastic sex as a man, and last I checked, artificial clits aren't quite like the real thing either.

    17. Re:My son is 13... by gtbritishskull · · Score: 1

      Ok... you don't like SQL. That is not the point. Whatever replaces it will probably still be programming (at least if it is flexible enough to be actually useful).

      Also, why do you think it is better for kids just to "discover" things on their own. Its a terrible idea to give the kid a football as a christmas present... let him "discover" it on his own.

      Or, you can try to give him (or her) things that you think they might like and help them to discover it. If they don't like it, then you will know. I, in general (not just for kids), don't like to give people things that are on their lists. You don't have to know anything about the person if you just order something that they link to in their list (or by getting them a cop-out gift like chocolates). I prefer to show the person that I actually know about them by getting them something that I think they will like but that they probably have never thought of getting for themselves.

      And I would not get a young girl who is in the doll phase a robotics kit. But, a young boy who plays with LEGOs I probably would. You obviously have to use your brain. And I would love for my nephew to be interested in the things that I do for a living because that would give us things in common. I could be the AWESOME uncle who helps him learn robotics. And maybe it is selfish that I want my relations to be interested in the things I am interested in. But since all relationships are based upon common interests, I think that building a relationship with a child can only be good in the long run.

      You are right that I could guess wrong about his interests and be *that* person. But there is no greater gift in life than being able to know that you have helped a child become a better person. I am willing to risk being *that* uncle when the potential reward is so great. So stick to your cop-out gifts if you want. I will continue to try to actually know the interests of my relations and use my knowledge to get them gifts that they may not have even considered.

    18. Re:My son is 13... by lahvak · · Score: 1

      Also, if they want to "discover programming", there's this great tool that they probably already have access to, called, hmmm, wait a minute, it's coming to me ... oh, right, the Internet. And if you google for "learn how to program", the first unsponsored hit gives a realistic perspective teach yourself programming in 10 years.

      I'm sorry, but that's stupid. These are for people who either don't really want to learn programming, but have to or think they have to, or for people who already are interested in programming and they want to learn more. It's about learning the proper syntax, and some basic programming concepts and tricks. Generally pretty much useless except for people who actually want to or need to program.

      Robotics programming is different. It's much more about problem solving than programming. It's about interacting with environment. It's about figuring out a solution to a problem, then running it and seeing very clearly that it doesn't work, and having to figure out how to fix it.

      Someone thinking the way you are thinking gave my daughter a box of expensive chocolates when she was 10. Few years later, we found it in her drawer, all spoiled and moldy. She will enjoy a box of good chocolate now when she is 17, although she will probably prefer a jar of hot sauce or spicy pickles. She has a cabinet full of unopened jewelery making kits and similar junk that people gave her as presents during the years.

      Just because you would have preferred a box of chocolate or a nail painting set when you were little does not mean every girl would.

      --
      AccountKiller
    19. Re:My son is 13... by tomhudson · · Score: 1

      You're still missing the original point - this whole gift-giving is based on the ulterior motive of trying to get them interested in programming. Now, if the poster had ANY clue as to what they were actually interested in, perhaps a gift more along the lines of furthering their exploration and interest in THAT topic would be more appropriate?

      Or, if I may use your own words in your latest reply:

      I prefer to show the person that I actually know about them by getting them something that I think they will like but that they probably have never thought of getting for themselves.

      Getting them LEGO Mindstorms because the POSTER wants to try to get them interested in programming doesn't match that criteria too well, does it? It doesn't show that the poster actually knows all that much about where their natural proclivities and interests lie, does it?

    20. Re:My son is 13... by tomhudson · · Score: 1

      What's the first thing most people do nowadays when they're interested in something? They hit the net. It's the same (even more so) with kids today. That's the reality. If they were at all interested in programming, they would be asking around; if they were interested in robotics, they would already have something like the Mindstorm on their list.

      You're also completely ignoring the last paragraph of the original post, which asked the following question:

      Has anybody gotten their younger relations into programming through robotics, and what kits might you recommend?"

      The poster is trying to get them interested in programming, not robotics. Robotics is just their "trojan horse."

      My reply was directed to the posters question, "getting them into programming", and pointing out the flaws.

      You may think my response was stupid, but I at least actually read the entire post, and addressed the flaws in posters' actual question - getting them into programming - instead of my mind going into a brain-freeze after seeing the word "robotics".

      Never mind that the whole thing is stupid to begin with because so many schools are now "jazzing up" their curriculum by playing with these toys (because they really are toys, and will have zero relevance a decade later, when they actually want to learn about and work in the field, and like someone who's learned BASIC, will have to unlearn what they've learned before advancing, but that's a whole other problem).

    21. Re:My son is 13... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks for the great link. Interesting stuff!

  3. Arduino + cheap chinese toys + lego by korgitser · · Score: 4, Informative

    Arduino makes electronics and programming simple.
    Cheap chinese toys provide you with part( set)s like motors, gears and radio links, with the additional engineering tricks to observe.
    Regular Lego parts provide you with fast no-brainer mechanics. Fear not the drilling and abusing of Lego blocks to mount that motor!
    The hard part now is for them to come up with ideas and interest.

    --
    FCKGW 09F9 42
    1. Re:Arduino + cheap chinese toys + lego by durrr · · Score: 1

      Hacking toys is a bitching process. My recommendation would be a basic arduino compatible robot platform prebuilt, that way you get up and rolling fast. A set of wheels on a platform and some ~$20 electric motor and lipo batteries for something chocklingly fast if you want to pick them more separately.

    2. Re:Arduino + cheap chinese toys + lego by pinkeen · · Score: 1

      Kids aged 12-14 might feel a bit too intimidated even by simple programming. It might be an unbreakable entry barrier. I would recommend something that uses this simplified "visual progamming" software.

    3. Re:Arduino + cheap chinese toys + lego by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      I would recommend something that uses this simplified "visual progamming" software.

      Yes! Get them to write the code using Vi, the Visual editor. It makes everything easy.

    4. Re:Arduino + cheap chinese toys + lego by rubycodez · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Any 10 year old of average intelligence can be taught to do simple programming. Ten year olds can be taught to make electronic devices too. A fourteen year old who actually is interested enough can earn an amateur radio licence and build a ham radio. Please don't contribute to the growing pandemic of treating our children like morons.

    5. Re:Arduino + cheap chinese toys + lego by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 1

      I vote for the arduino too. I might even build them a 'dumbed down' "case" for them (opto isolators and the such) so they can't break it.

      But there is nothing cooler and makes stuff click in programming more than when you say "pin on" and an LED lights up or a motor turns on.

    6. Re:Arduino + cheap chinese toys + lego by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For the past 4 years, I worked at a summer camp teaching lego mindstorms to 4-8 graders. Most 4th and 5th graders (9 and 10 year olds) pick up on the visual programming (dropping programming "blocks" in a row) very quickly. I would think by 14 they would be able to handle some more advanced programming (as long as they show interest in it). My parents bought a 486 when I was about 12 or 14 and I started programming in basica and qbasic from programs I found in 3-2-1 Contact. At the same time, I started experimenting (on my own, with no help) with making my own programs.

      I think starting your kid with some programming around 12 or 14 is a good idea but only if they are interested in it. My parents wanted me to do a lot of things when I was that age that I just didn't care for. Programming was something they weren't interested in (and knew nothing about) but I picked it up anyway because I had the tools.

    7. Re:Arduino + cheap chinese toys + lego by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      12 or 14 is too old. Give 'em a copy of Logo or Squeak when they're maybe 8, and they'll be off to the races (if they have any aptitude or interest, at least -- and if they don't, find a sport or musical instrument for them instead).

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    8. Re:Arduino + cheap chinese toys + lego by Missing.Matter · · Score: 2

      The issue isn't if they can do it, it's will they. Kids and teenagers want to play video games, hang out with their friends, chase girls, etc. If you don't present programming in the right light, they won't be interested or try it out and set it aside. I've seen it at every age level. Starting with C/C++ is probably the worst approach possible.

    9. Re:Arduino + cheap chinese toys + lego by rubycodez · · Score: 2

      who said c/c++ had to be used? a nice library to a fun language could instead be employed. as to attention span and hobbies prevalent today, the issue is proper mentoring and teaching, to create and nature interest. I am very thankful my parents and a couple very influential teachers provided that for me. I was indeed making electronic devices at age 10 and writing software at age 11 (programming was thanks to teachers). I'm 48 years old), my hobbies have become my income source over the years, and that story started at age 10 thanks to adults with proper mindset.

    10. Re:Arduino + cheap chinese toys + lego by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      That's about as useful as saying "give them Python and Cold Fusion and let them go." For my generation, "give them BASIC" was easy because it was included with Apple and DOS. And there were magazines with code in the middle, you type in 200 lines someone else wrote, and you had a working program. If it didn't do what you wanted, you used BASIC's expert compiling options to determine the problem. If you wanted to tweak it, you did so. But the "guides" for how to do it were out there and at the 4/5 year old level, as all you had to be able to do to use them is copy characters. You didn't even need to know how to read (though it would help, obviously). So where are those resources for Logo and Squeak? Really, I have a child of appropriate age and would like to know. Some homeschooler program for programing or beginners guide that an 8 year old could follow?

    11. Re:Arduino + cheap chinese toys + lego by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      First of all, all those resources for BASIC you're talking about still exist. Sure they're not new, but they didn't evaporate just because some time has passed.

      Second, Logo and Squeak are not like Python and Cold Fusion. They're designed for teaching kids about computing. Squeak, in fact, is a whole graphical environment complete with self-contained guides.

      Third, do you really expect me to spoon-feed it to you? You can Google for those resources just as easily as I can.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    12. Re:Arduino + cheap chinese toys + lego by rev0lt · · Score: 1

      I actually started programming in assembly when I was 10, because I needed a quick "operating system" for a microcontroller board I was developing. The board itself never saw the light of day, but the simplicity of the assembly language coupled with the direct concept of digital electronics made me interested in learning more about programming, and eventually I gave up electronics almost completely. Many of the things I've learned during that time are usable today, even if I'm not in the field. In retrospect, I probably wasn't a regular kid, but hey, we can't have it all, can we?

    13. Re:Arduino + cheap chinese toys + lego by niado · · Score: 1

      Anecdote: I actually obtained an amateur radio license when I was 8 or 9.

      It was the (now deprecated) entry-level 'Novice' class license which required a small basic theory exam and a 5 WPM morse-code exam. Unfortunately I wasn't really interested in it at the time (I just did it because my dad was doing it at the time) and never did anything with it aside from hopping on to one of the morse-code-only bands once or twice and try to figure out what people were saying.

    14. Re:Arduino + cheap chinese toys + lego by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      First of all, all those resources for BASIC you're talking about still exist.

      Yes, but no. There is no new content being delivered in magazines as there was in the '80s. Digging through 30 year old trash for a "new and cool" program is a contradiction that children will recognize and turn them off. BASIC was a "proven" stepping stone such that other languages taught would have BASIC analogs directly referenced so learning BASIC would have some benefit to people learning C+ (even if not a massive leg up). So the "environment" and "community" does not still exist. but yes, you can dig in the trash and pull up the resources in question.

      Third, do you really expect me to spoon-feed it to you?

      Well, yeah. "The Porsche is faster than the Ferrari." Well, what's the top speed of each? "Fuck you, look it up yourself."

      If it's the elitist and pretentious pricks pushing the "new" learning languages, I'll stay away from them. The BASIC community was helpful and sarcastic, if you are representative, the "new" version community is full of people I don't wish to associate with.

    15. Re:Arduino + cheap chinese toys + lego by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Take a look at ALICE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_(software)

    16. Re:Arduino + cheap chinese toys + lego by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      If it's the elitist and pretentious pricks pushing the "new" learning languages, I'll stay away from them. The BASIC community was helpful and sarcastic, if you are representative, the "new" version community is full of people I don't wish to associate with.

      Why should I, a random Slashdotter who happens to know these things exist but is in no way a "representative" of any learning language "community," spend my time looking up a bunch of information so that I could teach it to you, when you could just as easily look it up yourself? You accuse me of being elitist and pretentious, but the real issue is how ridiculously presumptuous you're being!

      Besides, is your goal here to whine about the quality of the "community" or to teach your kid to program? If it's truly the latter, then fucking man up and deal with it!

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    17. Re:Arduino + cheap chinese toys + lego by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      If it were easy, you'd have done it. Thus, it can't be as easy as you claim.

    18. Re:Arduino + cheap chinese toys + lego by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      I didn't say it was easy, I said it would be of equal difficulty for you or me. The difference is, I don't care. But you obviously do care (since you said earlier "really, I have a child of appropriate age and would like to know"), so you should do it!

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    19. Re:Arduino + cheap chinese toys + lego by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      You care enough about it to have an answer and to post about it multiple times.

  4. FIRST by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Alternatively, or in addition, you could find a FIRST team for them to interact with. It would provide a good gateway for them to get into it, and it has teams for every level from kindergarten to high school. Obviously only an option if there's a relatively local one though.

    1. Re:FIRST by timothyb89 · · Score: 3, Informative
      +1 to this. I know from personal experience that this is the way to go, especially for younger kids. Not only does it have a solid track for growth, from elementary until high school (FLL -> FTC -> FRC) , but it makes sure that you have other people to work with. Plus, there's generally no or very little cost to the student.

      If that's not an option, I'd still recommend Mindstorms. It's more expensive, sure, but it really is leaps and bounds better than the alternatives. Younger kids (late elementary through middle school, 10 - 14 or so), tend to struggle with some of the less-developed kits, particularly if they lack a large community. Mindstorms is a great development kit, as you can see from all the /. articles about it. Adults and kids can make great use if them - I do all the time.

      If that's still out of budget, VEX may be somewhat less expensive. I believe kits run about $200 and there's still a large community and yearly competitors and challenges to participate in. It's not quite the same community as FIRST, though.

      Basically, there's no cheap way to get a (good) robotics kit. Even homebrew stuff (Arduino and the like), is going to be $100 at the absolute minimum. The cheapest way is to find a local team, or perhaps try starting one - many schools districts offer funding, support, or even full kits for new teams, in addition to lots of FIRST scholarships.

      Disclaimer: I mentor FLL (Mindstorms) and FRC teams, after having been on several myself through middle and high school.

    2. Re:FIRST by timothyb89 · · Score: 1
      Oh, and to expand a bit, for little to no electronics and entry-level programming, Mindstorms is again the best option. Graphical programming for new users, and hobbyists can use both a C derivative (NXC) and Java (LeJOS), two programming environments that I personally envy, even with higher-level robotics.

      VEX again comes fairly close. You can program it with EasyC, which works very well for teaching to kids and I think would work great for letting the kids become more independent after a short time.

      I've never seen an independent kit that offers reasonable ease of use. I've worked with quite a few, and for the most part none of them will satisfy the requirements. They generally are difficult to set up, and require lots of soldering, etc. While great for those interested, they wouldn't work very well for kids working independently. Essentially, the focus is on the electronics side rather than the software side, while the more mainstream kits (Mindstorms, VEX) tend to be more about software and construction (with pre-made parts) rather than electronics.

    3. Re:FIRST by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      You could probably get started with arduino for around $50, but it would be an uphill battle. But you can get $1 servos now, so it's not totally infeasible if you have some nifty scraps around, broken toys, et cetera. We have a salvation army center pretty near me that sells us armloads of stuff for five or ten bucks, and there's often a lot of electronic toys in the bins in various states of disrepair, some of which have obvious hack value. Flea markets and yard sales are some other good sources. Just picked up a scooter powertrain for $5... scooter was bent and batteries shot, but got two-piece wheels, motor, controller, charger. I think it'll make a dandy R/C buggy of about 1/4 scale.

      With that said, I'd certainly suggest mindstorms, because it makes it so easy to get going, and legos are cool. It costs money, but realistically, you will have to spend some money, so you might as well spend it on something good with high resale value.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  5. the Roomba people sell a programmable platform now by Trepidity · · Score: 4, Informative

    It's a bit higher than that price range though, at $130.

  6. Cell phone based by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    www.osbots.com sells a cell phone based platform.

  7. Parallax! by Dzimas · · Score: 3, Informative

    Visit Parallax.com - lots of robot kits starting at about $130. These are great gateway products into "real" robotics, without the oversimplification of Lego bricks.

    1. Re:Parallax! by VIPERsssss · · Score: 1

      I second this suggestion.
      I bought the $70 Basic Stamp 2 years ago for my son.
      He made us buy the Boe-Bot accessory for it last Christmas

      I'm not going to say what he got this Christmas because he's right behind me playing with his stirling engine.

      --
      We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion.
    2. Re:Parallax! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Definitely consider Parallax. Their robots come with an IDE that uses graphics to help kids understand the concepts of procedural programming. Then they can move on to a standard IDE once they get the concepts down.

      Here is a link to a Parallax Scribbler robot my kid programmed when he was 10 to give you an idea of what the robots can do:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hqq6gWrpWQI

  8. I read, "root kit" by fotoguzzi · · Score: 1

    I suppose the field of rooting would be called rootics.

    --
    Their they're doing there hair.
  9. Sources for kits by savuporo · · Score: 5, Informative

    There are numerous kits available, best sources for choosing one would be http://www.pololu.com/ , http://www.trossenrobotics.com/ , http://www.robotshop.com/ , http://www.lynxmotion.com/ , http://www.makershed.com/ and a bunch of others. http://sparkfun.com/ and http://adafruit.com/ for more general electronics components

    Cant really recommend one in particular, as it depends on what you want to do. There are several categories : 2wheel differential drive bases, legged hexapods, 4wd bases, even bipeds and robotic arms.

    If you get one that is designed to be Arduino-compatible, and can take any number of Arduino expansion shields, you will have endless possibilities. I'd say easiest starting point is a complete 2WD kit with some accessory sensors. This is a nice one http://www.makershed.com/product_p/mkseeed7.htm , comes with motors and all. Just pick a "mainboard" and motor driver shield and you are good to go.

    --
    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.slashdot.org Errors found while checking this document as HTML5!
  10. I am not an expert. by pinkeen · · Score: 2

    But from what I gather robotics are expensive. Even entry-level. That said, if you want something easy to play with Mindstorms seems to be the only viable option.

    1. Re:I am not an expert. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That's really the point, isn't it? LEGO mindstorms is easier to use. Most parents don't think twice about plunking down $40 for a NERF blaster.
      The LEGO device is right priced and provides a good ecosystem of peripherals. If your child loves it, then give him an allowance and let him meander through the parallaxes and what-not.

    2. Re:I am not an expert. by rev0lt · · Score: 1

      So are playstations and whatnot. For the price of a modern console and a couple of games, I'm shure you can buy a nifty robot kit.

    3. Re:I am not an expert. by pinkeen · · Score: 1

      My point was that you can't buy an easy to start with (for children) robotics kit if you have $100 to spend (yes, that's the guy's budget). That makes your comment kind of off-topic.

  11. Edmund Scientific has robots by joellandoe · · Score: 1

    It looks like Edmund Scientific has some. Not sure which one is best though. http://www.scientificsonline.com/robotics.html/

  12. I recommend not doing it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    if you want a robot kit, buy yourself a robot kit. They probably want an iPad or money or a bag of weed. Something they can actually use.

    1. Re:I recommend not doing it by Joce640k · · Score: 0

      +1 Insightful.

      --
      No sig today...
    2. Re:I recommend not doing it by Ethanol-fueled · · Score: 0

      Who the fuck modded parent down? Theirs is currently the most insightful comment in the entire discussion!

      Could you imagine being a introverted nerd with a room full of code and robot parts, only to have your dad come in and say, "Son, I'm worried about you. It's about time we get rid of all this sissy shit and play some FOOTBALL!

      Involuntarily enrolled in Pop Warner, you get knocked around and bloodied on a regular basis, then teased and treated with "tough-love" when you show signs of weakness because your arrogant parent is trying to hammer a square peg into a round hold so you can me a "mini-me."

    3. Re:I recommend not doing it by PPH · · Score: 2

      But this is the exact psyche we'll need to develop for our future soldiers. Geeks that can handle the technology and who have an inferiority complex and a score to settle for getting kicked around as kids. If we can direct this pent-up rage against our enemy, we'll be invincible.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
  13. Re:the Roomba people sell a programmable platform by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Nothing gets women into robotics better than a programmable vacuum cleaner!

  14. Still, LEGO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The LEGO RCX or NXT offers more than anything else in this price range. Get the RCX from ebay or buy the NXT. It is most definitely worth the money.

    Yet, keep in mind that either one (or any other kit) require a lot of dedication and time to get anything non-trivial working. Good luck with your nieces, but be prepared for a disappointment nevertheless.

  15. Re:the Roomba people sell a programmable platform by Trepidity · · Score: 1

    Well, the 'iRobot Create" isn't actually a vacuum cleaner, though it looks a lot like a Roomba and probably is the same base platform.

  16. Fisher Technik by Bram+Stolk · · Score: 1, Informative

    Fischer Technik is an absolute winner here.
    Excellent for teenagers.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischertechnik

    It goes well beyond what lego mindstorms has to offer.
    True 6D connections, and even has stuff like pneumatics!
    http://www.robotmatrix.org/Fischertechnik-Pneumatic-Robot.htm

    Bram Stolk
    http://stolk.org/HoverBiker/

    --
    Bram Stolk http://stolk.org/tlctc/
    1. Re:Fisher Technik by eht · · Score: 1

      Also absolutely expensive

      This post is nothing more than an ad for his ios game.

    2. Re:Fisher Technik by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Posting as an AC because my job requires me to work with FT products...

      I couldn't disagree more with regard to FischerTechnik. The mechanics are almost decent enough for what they are, but electrically it is a disaster. It feels industrial, but it doesn't deliver.

      The electrical connectors are very flaky and prone to pull out. On the brick, the connectors are too close together, so you are often forced to pull by the wire. Even if you don't, there is no compliance in the set screw that holds the wire in, so they will easily fall out with vibration. They recommend folding the exposed copper back over the insulation to give some springyness, but this only reduces the symptoms and does not solve the problem.

      The sensor options are decent, and it shouldn't be overly difficult to jerry-rig new sensors in. However, the wiring can be confusing for anything that requires 3 wires.

      Programming wise, their default "language" is utterly unworkable for anything beyond the most basic "if sensor then motor" logic. They do provide dll hooks for other languages, but be sure to add 10ms waits between all function calls if you want reliable communication.

      Mechanically, it is extremely easy to make a robot disassemble itself. For example, the gripper on the crane will disconnect itself if you close it "too hard" (motor >80% power): the detents on the axles are too weak to handle side loading. With some experience, you can work around these short comings by understanding what the pieces can and can't do.

    3. Re:Fisher Technik by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      By the time you get to the point of doing anything advanced, you should be competent enough to do your own wiring. There should be no need to rely on flaky connections. (But I admit that this is something the company should address; it has been that way for far too long.)

      I repeat, however, that it is used by universities throughout the U.S. in their robotics and industrial control classes. While it may not be perfect, I don't know of any other actual construction sets (as opposed to "robotics kits") that come even close. Certainly not Lego.

    4. Re:Fisher Technik by Bram+Stolk · · Score: 1

      Also absolutely expensive

      This post is nothing more than an ad for his ios game.

      First off... how are the two related?

      About your first point: yes, FischerTechnik is one of the more expensive options.
      I glanced over the OP budget point.
      But there is always the 2nd hand market.

      About your second point:
      'nothing more'?

      Really...? Nothing more?
      I think bringing attention to FT is very valid here (also according to the moderators apparently), and a lot of nerds would like pneumatics in their robot kit.
      I was heavily into FT for a time before moving onto custom made robotics, so I have some valid contributions to this thread, more than 'an ad'.

      And please lighten up about my sig.
      No one forces you to click on my sig.

      --
      Bram Stolk http://stolk.org/tlctc/
    5. Re:Fisher Technik by Rimbo · · Score: 1

      I have a soft spot in my heart for FT, because when I was growing up, FT was vastly superior to anything Lego made. I had a lot of fun using FT robotics on my Apple //e. They also had the pneumatics kit, electromechanics, and a whole bunch of things that were far beyond what Lego offered then.

      But...

      It's not so much that FT has faded as that Lego has caught up in the areas where it was weak and remained strong in the areas where it had FT beat. Modern Lego models are a lot better at showing you how to put pieces together, and not just how to build the thing, than they used to be. The piece selection is more diverse, and the piece -quality- has improved greatly; they hold together better and come apart more easily. The new robotics kits, power functions kits and other stuff in the Technics line give Lego a lot of the things that came with FT (although not all).

      The old FT that I kept for my son, and the new FT I bought for him, largely sits in a bin collecting dust while he discovers and builds entire new worlds with Lego. Even when I was a kid, Lego somehow was an every-day kind of toy, while FT was more a once-in-a-while kind of thing.

      So... while I have admiration for FT and an emotional attachment to it, Lego is what dominates my 7-year-old's playtime. Maybe when he's older, FT will be a new challenge...

    6. Re:Fisher Technik by terminal.dk · · Score: 1

      Fisher Technik has long ago been surpassed by Lego.
      When I was a child Fisher was big, but Lego Technic has completely replaced them in the retail space.

      I would rather recommend starting out with Lego Technic, so they can learn the basic mechanics, and then add PF (Power Functions), and maybe end up with Mindstorm. But starting with Technic sets, you can see if they will have an interest.

  17. Umm by Jiro · · Score: 5, Insightful

    No offense, but the way this question is phrased it doesn't sound like they had any interest in the subject. We've had questions like this before, although usually it's "how do I get a kid started in programming", but we need to remember that kids are likely to have different interests and you cannot make one become a geek unless they already are.

    1. Re:Umm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      How do they know if they like it or not if they haven't been exposed to it?

    2. Re:Umm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      How do they know if they like it or not if they haven't been exposed to it?

      Is that what the priest told you as a kid?

    3. Re:Umm by QuarkofNature · · Score: 3, Interesting

      A friend of mine has a son who's interested. Every time they come over, he's asking me about my latest computer / electronics / whatever project. He hid a from-scratch crystal radio he was building under his jacket, last time they were over, to show me and ask me questions, without telling his parents. He is interested. As cool as it is in concept, getting a $200+ kit for a kid who hasn't shown any interest because "maybe they just haven't been exposed to it" seems like a waste of money to me. If you actually interact with a kid of that age, you should have a pretty good idea if they're interested or not. Having said all that, if OP has reason to believe they really ARE interested, I'd suggest that $40-100 is tough for the suggested application. You can buy some basic parts as some have suggested, an arduino, USB interface, and a shield or two, but unless a kid is really motivated, they won't make heads or tails of it without a lot of help, not just a couple hours of your time. Plus, they'd likely nee to need to spend lots of additional money (their own?) to get the additional parts to make anything useful. The reason Mindstorms and the Fischertechnik kits are expensive is because they're easy to approach, have instructions, and come with enough stuff to allow creation of interesting things without buying additional parts. Compromising and getting something that is doesn't stand on its own or isn't suitable for beginners could backfire...you're probably better off getting a more simple, but approachable kit, like a snap circuits kit in your price range.

    4. Re:Umm by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      If they like to take things apart with a screwdriver, and successfully put them back together again, they might be interested in robotics. If they are more interested in football or dancing around with a tutu, then it's probably not for them.

  18. PICAXE 18M2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Really cheap at sparkfun.com.. Thats a good starting place.

  19. snap circuits? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    Snap circuits price point better than Lego Mindstorms, appear to be less complex than RadioShack's 50 in 1 electronics kits...

    i bought a couple of the RS electronics learning lab kits in anticipation of my kids developing interest, but they are still too young..

    http://www.snapcircuits.net/

    several choices...

    1. Re:snap circuits? by rworne · · Score: 3, Informative

      These kits are really nice. Basically one of those old Radio Shack XXX-in-1 electronics kits with lego building simplicity. I have a couple of them (the 300 kit and the advanced rover) at home.

      --
      I tried every decent and legal way I could think of to resolve the issue w/the business before I rented the chicken suit
  20. Society Of Robots by GerardAtJob · · Score: 1

    Why not just get a breadboard and go read http://www.societyofrobots.com/ ?
    Under 100$, you have all you need to create your first robot.

    --
    I can't call that English ;-)
  21. Forget it (been there, tried that) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    > I thought I might try my hand at corrupting my nieces (ages 12 and 14) in a nerdier direction ...

    I once tried that with my nieces of that age. I was told in no uncertain terms that they didn't want no more nerdy Christmas presents. Geeks are born, not made - or at least there must be parental support of actual thinking. Go with the cheapest junk de jour you can find *if* you must maintain family peace, otherwise a small lump of coal will do as well as any nerdy presents.

    1. Re:Forget it (been there, tried that) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Geeks are born, not made

      Exactly. It's called the autism spectrum.

  22. Do you want cheap or educational? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Don't be a tightwad.

    Lego Mindstorms is what I grew up on and it does very well what it was designed to do. Mindstorms lowers the barriers to entry enough to where someone in the age group you specified can actually get some benefit out of the experience.

    At the same time, Mindstorms is sophisticated enough that you aren't just soldering together a pre-programmed microcontroller like some of the robots kits out of "Edmunds Scientific".

    Arduino can teach someone who has no experience with programming or electronics how to develop for embedded applications, assuming they have the attention span and focus to work through the learning curve and programming examples.

    I've met very few 12-14 year olds with that level of focus. Their imaginations and ambitions will be stifled by a lack of fabrication skills, equipment, and facilities. They will be reduced to hack-a-day style tinkering where they can put together a computer interface for existing hardware, but they will not be able to go through the creative problem solving, & design process that makes robotics so fulfilling.

    By all means, graduate them to an arduino after they've built some Mindstorms, but don't do them the injustice of throwing them to the wolves of boredom by getting them in over their head. Their first impression of robotics will be "difficult, boring, and inaccessible".

    FIRST, & MATE both have robotics competitions targeted at children in the age group you specified. When you think they're ready, get them involved.

    $300 is a pittance considering the return on investment. The $200-260 savings will translate to negative ROI in the thousands on future education expenses. A solid robotics foundation is the difference between an engineering/computer science student barely surviving college and looking forward to class every day.

    Did I mention that Robotics discourages recreational drug use?

    Get off your wallet and use a credit card. Then buy them an Arduino for their birthday.

  23. lousy gift? by ukemike · · Score: 2

    They have no programming experience,

    and probably no interest. You know the way to give good gifts is to try to understand what the recipient enjoys then give based on that information. When you try to push something "good for them" on them you're like that dentist who hands out toothbrushes on halloween.

    --
    -- QED
    1. Re:lousy gift? by obarel · · Score: 1

      Reminds you of the usual Christmas questions on Slashdot: "This year I've decided to give my family a Linux distro on a USB stick. Any suggestions?"

    2. Re:lousy gift? by IANAAC · · Score: 1

      They have no programming experience,

      and probably no interest.

      That was exactly what I thought when I read the summary. If a 12 y/o kid hasn't shown any interest in something like programming, they probably aren't going to be interested in it.

    3. Re:lousy gift? by jones_supa · · Score: 1

      Hehehe. Or the "My 3 year old daughter seems to be very interested about what I do on computer, so I am looking for suggestions for her first laptop..."

  24. Spend the money, you get what you pay for by Missing.Matter · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The thing about robotics is there's a great divide between really cool stuff and really lame stuff in terms of price. There are a lot of really cheap robotics kits.... but they're pretty lame: solder a few wires to a motor and board and watch a car follow a line. BFD. And then that's it, you can't do anything more with it. On the other hand all the awesome hexapods and humanoids are going to run you thousands of dollars. A single servo can cost over $100!

    With that in mind, I highly suggest reconsidering the Mindstorms kit. You might even consider buying a Mindstorms 1.0 kit from Ebay. They're apparently on the 2.0 generation, and it seems like the 1.0 kit is significant;y cheaper. But it's seriously worth it.

    If I were a kid again, I know something like a mindstorms kit would certainly get me interested in robotics. In fact, what got me interested in robotics initially was a Capsela robotics kit I got for Christmas. It was great having all the pieces and sensors there so whatever I imagined I could create and program. The programs were simple (eg. go forward until bumper press), but I didn't spend hours frustrated and stuck knowing what I wanted to do but unable to do it. Soon enough I graduated honest to god microcontrollers, soldering tools, and C.

    Also I would rethink concentrating on the software side. Most people I know who are in robotics (I know a lot of people in robotics, it's my field) started because they loved building things with their hands. The appeal of robotics is to build something and then give it life. Both parts have to be there for you to foster interest. Getting bogged down in the programming is a bad idea, as it will just lead to frustration and then disinterest, especially if they've never programmed before. Again this seems like a win for Mindstorms.

    tldr: don't be cheap and spend the money. You get what you pay for.

    1. Re:Spend the money, you get what you pay for by savuporo · · Score: 2

      >>The thing about robotics is there's a great divide between really cool stuff and really lame stuff in terms of price.

      This is just flat out wrong. You can do really really cool stuff relatively inexpensive, you just have to plan and think about what you are trying to do. Arduino and its shields have endless possibilities, and if you pair it with a powerful embedded CPU like any of the Android phones ( Arduino has specific support , ADK ) you can do amazing things.

      Or if an android phone feels too locked down, get a real embedded computer like Beagleboard ( to pair with Arduino, some cheap USB webcams, and again you are free to do amazing stuff. Or use XBee or Bluetooth for wireless connection to the MCU, the modules are dirt cheap, and you can do a lot of heavy lifting algorithms on PC.
      Again, you have to think and plan for flexibility. There are some basic types of feedback sensors you want to get running early, like wheel encoders and some sort of inertial measurement, gyro and accelerometers. Both can be had very cheap these days, from single axis up to 9DOF fully integrated modules.

      Yes, if you think that a $1000 Bioloid kits or $10000 NAO kits are the only cool thing in town, you will have to shell out for them, but then whats the fun in that ? Oh, i have a humanoid. That can do backflips. BFD.

      --
      http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.slashdot.org Errors found while checking this document as HTML5!
    2. Re:Spend the money, you get what you pay for by Missing.Matter · · Score: 1

      You do realize we're talking about teenagers who have never programmed here? Everything you listed above isn't exactly beginner friendly.

    3. Re:Spend the money, you get what you pay for by savuporo · · Score: 1

      I can tell that you have never used any of the Arduino kits, a lot of them solderless. Or Basic STAMPs even ?

      --
      http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.slashdot.org Errors found while checking this document as HTML5!
    4. Re:Spend the money, you get what you pay for by Missing.Matter · · Score: 1

      I've used Arduino. Who hasn't? True they're solderless. That's not the deal. We're talking about kids who have never programmed before, and who we're really not sure if they want to program at all. C/C++ is not how I would introduce them to programming. I teach C/C++ at the college level, and if I had my way the cirriculum wouldn't include C at all, or at least toward the end of the semester.

      I agree all the things you mentioned are good once you have some experience, but if you're going to give a kid (again, with unknown aptitude and prediliction for programming) an arduino, and expect to spend "a few afternoons" showing them how to program it then pat them on the back and send them on their way, they'll probably put it down as soon as you turn your back.

      The freedom to do anything can be overwhelming and paralyzing especially when you don't know all the right things to do or even how to start. Which arduino do I use, which shields do I use, how do I interface with my PC? Bluetooth? Wifi? Xbee? Serial? USB? What are the differences? What is a microcontroller? What are the differences between them? How do I provide power? Why do I need a voltage regulator? What is voltage? Some kids will embrace this new knowledge. Some will become overwhelmed and therefore disinterested.

      With something like Mindstorms, all the pieces are there, all the parts and instructions are there, programming is dead simple with a graphical programming language. You think of something, you snap it together, you make it move. No issues about compatibility or protocols or frying circuits, or other frustrations that come up with something like Arduino.

    5. Re:Spend the money, you get what you pay for by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have used them extensively, I have 3 pro-minis, 1 uno, 2 duemilanoves, 1 Mega 2560, 1 PhoneDrone/ADK, 1 ArduPilot, and 2 ArduIMUs within spitting distance as I type this.

      I agree with Missing.Matter

      When I think of 12-14 year old girls, even the Arduino IDE & female header sockets are not basic enough to make a good introduction. They don't know what reverse polarity is, they've never heard of ohms law, they don't know the difference between volts & amps, and would have no idea how to find a datasheet.

      Their uncle isn't going to be there to hold their hand. The mindstorms are an unsupervised learning experience. The Arduino is a great learning platform but is too advanced for their level.

      It's like recommending a Linux-box to someone who's never used a computer. I don't care if it's Ubuntu, it's an inappropriate platform to start a complete novice on.

    6. Re:Spend the money, you get what you pay for by Spiked_Three · · Score: 1

      +1 from me on Lego. I've been pursuing hobbyist level robotics for a while now, and I have found nothing even remotely close to what Lego's offer.

      With that in mind, reconsider your budget (a useless toy isnt really saving money), and or look for bargains - used V1 on eBay.

      The Legos allow you to go from simple with a visual programming environment, to very complex( eg LeJOS or MRDS) if a true interest develops.

      And if all else fails, it's still a Lego, build non-robtics stuff.

      --
      slashdot troll = you make a compelling argument I do not like the implications of.
  25. possibly too subtle by heinousjay · · Score: 1

    You couldn't be more off base. Everyone secretly thinks just like I do, unless someone is paying them to think a different way.

    --
    Slashdot - where whining about luck is the new way to make the world you want.
  26. boe bot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    the boe bot from paralax is the best one

  27. Re:the Roomba people sell a programmable platform by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Nothing gets women into robotics better than a programmable vacuum cleaner!

    That's why he needs to get them both the iRobot and the Robotic Arm mentioned above. That way the girls can learn to program robots to vacuum, make sandwiches and open beers.

  28. Too late by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Should have done so maybe 5 years earlier in their lives. As you write it, they aren't interested and teenagers are already set in their way and especially don't like being coerced to something they haven't had an interest in before, (except for;... you know what. NO you can't help with this.)

  29. Durabitlity by Murdoch5 · · Score: 1

    I've used a number of entry level boards, some of them really bad and some really good. Do you have any idea what kind of language API you want the board to be based on? I ask because I know boards with C based API ( Handyboard ) and I know BASIC based API's etc...

    You said you also have no programming experience so are you going to want to learn with them or go ahead and learn first then teach them? All of these things way into what I would recommend to you for a beginning board. However all that aside my big two recommenations would be:
    1. Go PIC
    2. Go Arduino

    Both excellent entry names, next you just have to look at the choices and figure out what you want.

  30. $99 Cyborg by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Backyard Brains sells the only commercially available Cyborg kit called the RoboRoach. It lets you steer a living cockroach around via an IR remote control. The control only works for a 5-8 turns until the roach adapts (but works again after ~15 minutes in his cage). It lets you learn a bit about robotics and biology.

    RoboRoach:
    http://roboroach.backyardbrains.com/

    1. Re:$99 Cyborg by riT-k0MA · · Score: 1

      ... Have you EVER seen how a 12-14 year old girl reacts when she sees a cockroach? And now you're suggesting giving them one for christmas?

  31. Buy what YOU like by sgt+scrub · · Score: 1

    Whatever my brother and I "played with" is what "neef n' not" (my two nephews) found interesting. I had tools to make metal models and dies. My brother made rockets out of everything, usually things he shouldn't have. Both his kids spent more time with him playing with his toy rockets than they did with the latest cool toys. The excitement of blowing shit up, shooting things into the air, and the ability to build their own transformers had more effect than any commercial had on either of them. Long story short, get something your going to enthusiastically enjoy sharing with them.

    --
    Having to work for a living is the root of all evil.
  32. First Lego League by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 2

    I signed one of my kids up for FLL ( http://www.firstlegoleague.org/ ), and it's worked well. The cost was something like $70 for one season. They use Mindstorms.

    Pros:
    - Kids develop teamwork skills as well as robotics skills
    - More social for the kids than just working at home
    - Each season kids are provided with some reasonable motivating problems. Even though the kids won't really solve them with Lego Mindstorms, it could give some kids a sense of the real good they can do if they pursue S&T careers.

    Cons:
    - Have to drive kids to the meeting every week, sometimes twice/week as end-of-year competition gets close.
    - Kids can't totally choose their own problems, and won't have access to the equipment except during meeting times (probably).

    1. Re:First Lego League by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      - Kids can't totally choose their own problems, and won't have access to the equipment except during meeting times (probably).

      So the whole point of thinking for oneself and coming up with things oneself is replaced by something somewhere between being a factory worker and color-by-the-number "painting".

      Sorry, this is really really bad and only produces even more drones and passive cattle.

    2. Re:First Lego League by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      As part of my job at a science museum, I coached a dozen FLL teams this year. I strongly recommend FLL for just about any child.

      The material (programming and building) is very accessible (routinely taught to 9 year olds) but can be extended to concepts that adults can have a hard time following. In fact, at our state-wide competition was yesterday the judges had to call back one of my teams twice to explain how their program worked. (that team used the official programming GUI to write a parser, and then wrote their commands in plain text)

      If you just buy the Mindstorms kit you can replace the firmware with something else, like RobotC (a C variant maintained by Carnegie Mellon).

      Just tossing an Arduino at an adolescent who isn't already begging for one is going to result in it sitting around, unused. You wont have that problem if you they are part of a LEGO robotics team. :)

      Also, the competition teaches less tangible but very useful things that many kids would learn from sports, like teamwork, maturity, patience, etc.

      PS: The age cut off for FLL is 14 (competition season starts beginning of September), but there is always FTC: http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/ftc

    3. Re:First Lego League by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      How often, in the real world, do you get to choose your own problem?

      Some fuckhead in marketing needs his laptop sanitized again. Sure, you'd rather be writing the next Angry Birds.

      You're expected to design a new lawnmower, because you work for a company that makes lawnmowers. Sure, you'd rather be working on race cars.

      Drawing up the plans for some dude's garage extension is the pits. Sure, you'd rather be producing the next XKCD.

      I don't get the paint by numbers comment. Just because the problem is predefined doesn't mean the solution is.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    4. Re:First Lego League by lahvak · · Score: 1

      (that team used the official programming GUI to write a parser, and then wrote their commands in plain text)

      Holy smokes! I am glad if I can make my team to follow a line consistently.

      --
      AccountKiller
    5. Re:First Lego League by lahvak · · Score: 1

      You clearly have no experience with Lego League. How does presenting kids with a problem that can be solved in hundreds, maybe thousands, of different ways and letting them figure out a solution compare to "something between a factory worker and color-by-the-number"?

      --
      AccountKiller
  33. My List by MikeD83 · · Score: 4, Informative

    I have about 10+ years of experience with the FIRST Robotics competition. For an "all inclusive robotics" kit you will need to increase your budget. However, electronics and software kits are in budget. Here's my list:

    1. Innovation FIRST's Vex Robtic system. This is hands down the best system available. The kit is basic enough that you can get something working while also open enough that the possibilities are limitless. You can interface your own custom circuits with it. It comes with default software in source code form that you can modify to whatever you would like. It also has mechanical kits where you can build almost anything. It's also not flimsy. This is one of the most expensive options, but you can start around $300 and add on for years.

    2. Lego MindstormsI would reccomend this kit for someone younger (8 or so.) It's not quite as extensible mechanically or electrically but is easier to use.

    With those two out of the way and actually answering your post based on the budget, I would recommend a Basic Stamp kit from Parallax. The kits are aimed at learning electronics and software. They're not a lot to them mechanically, you need additional parts and know-how for that. The kits are low cost and require you to learn. I cut my teeth on the Basic Stamp 2 (BS2) and I turned out to be a successful software engineer.

  34. BoBot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I would recommend the Parallax BoBot kit. It has all the parts for a rover bot. I am not thrilled with the Basic Stamp 2 microcontroller however when it comes to programming. The kit is currently on sale. http://www.parallax.com/tabid/757/Default.aspx . The mindstorms kits are fun (and expensive) and they can be programmed in C (NQC) if the mindstorm learning lab software is too elementary for you. I think building with legos gives an inferior learning experience to having to cut and solder and scrounge for parts but that is my own prejudice. Arduinos with a motor shield would give the most satisfaction as "real robotics" in my opinion depending on the teenager. It is fraught with frustration getting anywhere in the beginning but the payoff is greater. The Arduino community is a great resource and if the kid gets tired with robots the platform is versatile in many other areas. The Arduino Uno and various shields are available at Radio Shack now as well as various Parallax kits. You might want to pick up a soldering iron some breadboards and some bags of assorted resistors, capacitors and trimmers while you are at it.

  35. Don't coruppt Kids ! by burni2 · · Score: 1

    Hi,

    even if some might think off it as a nice twist of the fate, but let kids play with the toys they like !

    If a boy likes to play with dolls let him be.
    If a girl likes to play with GI-Joe let her be.

    If some kid either boy or girl has shown interest in something technical just support don't push .. and giving out presents without being certian about kids interest is a way to push kids in a limbo of having to be thankfull and feeling probably guilty for not playing with the toy because it does not match the interest.

    Ask and find out about interests first.

    just my 2 cents

    ps.
    I bought myself 3 real working industry robots from the late 80s early 90s weighing 300kg ( 700 lb) each, they were not that expensive. (inlcuding control + teach pendant)

    That's a real robotics kit ;)

    1. Re:Don't coruppt Kids ! by crankyspice · · Score: 1

      If a boy likes to play with dolls let him be.
      If a girl likes to play with GI-Joe let her be.

      This.

      I just read this article, it's an extreme, but it proves the point I think: http://articles.boston.com/2011-12-11/lifestyle/30512365_1_twin-boys-transgender-jonas

      I remember every year asking for an Erector Set and never getting one; as an adult my mom confided she was hoping I would "come out of it" and get interested in football or something. (She also pushed hard for me to go to a Big Campus (UofA or ASU or ...) like she did (NIU); I chose a small liberal arts school and blossomed... She also mocked (as an adult) the science fiction conventions I used to drag her to (as my essential transportation), and I remember having to save up on the sly and get a ride with one of the adults in the computer club I attended to the local hotel sale to buy my first Apple IIgs...)

      Find out what the kids themselves are interested in, and encourage that. Don't try to mold them to what /you/ think it might be cool for them to become. Expose them, sure. "Hey, want to check out this robotics project I've been working on?" But don't wrap it for them under the tree.

      --
      geek. lawyer.
    2. Re:Don't coruppt Kids ! by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      I'm confused. She didn't like you playing with "boys' toys", but she wanted you to go out and play a "boys' sport"? Is this a gender thing, or an indoors/outdoors thing?

      I'm assuming that when you say football, you actually mean handegg. Because in the place where football is considered a girls' game, they generally call it soccer.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    3. Re:Don't coruppt Kids ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm confused. She didn't like you playing with "boys' toys", but she wanted you to go out and play a "boys' sport"? Is this a gender thing, or an indoors/outdoors thing?

      I'm assuming that when you say football, you actually mean handegg. Because in the place where football is considered a girls' game, they generally call it soccer.

      Yes, you sure are confused. Boys don't play sports. His mother wanted him to be a fairy princess and play football, he had more manly interests though and didn't enjoy wearing tights while slapping other dudes on the buttocks.

  36. get this too.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ..for yourself, learn about it and explain it to the kid.

    http://www.r-charge.com/Small-Window-Motor-Energizer-Basic-kit_p_156.html

    ps: it's worth for all of you

  37. Umm, epic fail at gift giving by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A present should be something given to bring pleasure to the recipient. While I think that you have good intentions, unless your nieces really want to learn something about robotics, you might give consideration to other things.

  38. Arduino LilyPads by story645 · · Score: 1

    So they're not robots, but if the girls are into fashion it's a a great way to get them started on programming while still keeping their interests in mind, They can make funky pillows for their bedroom or keep out signs for their doors or I dunno something else that a 12 year old girl might actually want. http://www.arduino.cc/en/Main/ArduinoBoardLilyPad

    --
    open source modern art: laser taggi
  39. The Pololu 3pi is a great little robot. by hamster_nz · · Score: 1

    It's small, fast, pre-built, can be made Arduino compatible, full source available, well documented. At $99 (but you need a $10 AVR programmer and batteries) so it's just outside of your budget. Check it out on youtube.

    But I can highly recommend it - http://www.pololu.com/catalog/product/975

  40. Interesting Kit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Have you seen this kit from Engadget?

    It looks interesting but they have been sold out for a week. I guess they weren't prepared for demand from the media response. I've been keeping my eye on this because of the functionality. Being able to build a robot with my kids out of a toy is appealing. Specifically one that can listen to voice commands and be controlled by our Wii Remote Control. I think the best part is I do not need to know how to program. The last thing I have time for is learning how to program when I have a career already! From what I understand, the software has a programming language that we can use later. My son will learn it. I sure won't!

  41. Regrettably and fortunately by Pirulo · · Score: 1

    Regrettably you can't buy curiosity, drive and will for under $100 (nor any other amount btw).
    Fortunately there's plenty of easy learning material on robotics you can compile in few minutes scourging the web.
    A nice selection of tools to break stuff open and a solder iron might be a good companion

  42. Minecraft has "redstone" circuits by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

    It's not exactly robotics, but for about $20, my kid is learning a lot about electronics Minecraft through building redstone circuits:
    http://www.minecraft.net/
    http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Redstone_Circuits
    "Redstone circuitry is a feature introduced in Alpha which allows for intricate Redstone wire based mechanisms to be created by players. Redstone circuitry is similar to digital electronics (based on boolean algebra) in real life. t's also possible to use pistons in redstone circuits. "

    You can even build stuff like elevators and music players.

    Warning: Minecraft can be pretty addictive-seeming. Be sure to get your vitamin D, maybe get a treadmill workstation, and take regular breaks...
    http://www.changemakers.com/discussions/discussion-493#comment-38823

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  43. Has no feedback by Richard_J_N · · Score: 2

    This isn't really a good system for computer control, because it has no feedback - it uses simple DC motors without potentiometers or servos. So there is no way for the computer to know the arm position.

  44. Uhh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Kids shouldn't be able to learn something as dangerous as robotics. Kits like the ones described here should be banned. If it saves just one child, then it's completely justified.

  45. Cheap NXT sets by Kilbanio · · Score: 1

    I have been picking up nxt 1.0 and the lego education 9797 sets on craigslist for no more than $125 over the last year. I have found 7 of them so far. I have picked up the older RCX lego sets for as little as $50. They have only needed a few missing pieces that have totaled about $20 on bricklink.com. The NXT kits are great for all ages. I am using them to run summer camps and help scouts get the robotics merit badge.

  46. Fischertechnik by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

    I will tell you up front that this is a bit on the pricier side, but for construction sets nothing in the world beats Fischertechnik. It is used by everyone from small children making toy houses and trucks, to universities in their robotics courses.

    Fischertechnik was designed from the ground for making robust but easy-to-build precision constructs. While I admit that with the more recent Lego stuff one can build very complex and even impressive "machinery", Lego pales in comparison to the engineering, quality, and precision of Fischertechnik.

  47. SpyTrakr $61.89 by CmdTako · · Score: 1

    Spygears app building site http://www.spygear.net/build.php HackADay's spytrakr hacks http://hackaday.com/?s=spy+trakr

  48. Indie gaming is in -- use simple games? by Aereus · · Score: 1

    Early on something like Lego Mindstorms is good, as others have mentioned. A good thing a bit later on may be experimenting with one of the many free game design engines out there. Something like the Unity engine has a great drag-and-drop IDE compatible with Mac and PC, and supports programming in multiple languages. Simple mini-games and platformer shooters would be a great way to pique their interest if they are so inclined.

  49. SOR Robot Tutorial by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://www.societyofrobots.com/robot_tutorial.shtml

    They call the tutorial the 50$ robot tutorial. This tutorial gives you a basic platform to explore robotics.

  50. Re:the Roomba people sell a programmable platform by mirix · · Score: 2

    Interesting, I thought they used to cost a lot more (as much as the vacuums, so I figured you be better off hacking one of them).

    hmm, it shows in the items included:

    Battery Case (holds 12 non-rechargeable alkaline batteries. Batteries not included)

    I thought the normal roombas have a big Nimh or so battery, and a dock? Might still be worth while to get the vacuum if that's the case...

    Think I'll pick up one of the vacuum models at some point, that way if I get bored of it, it can still have a function ;)

    --
    Sent from my PDP-11
  51. I'm Marianne Faithful, you insensitive clod! by Hognoxious · · Score: 4, Funny

    If you've ever tasted some of the more expensive specialty chocolates, you'll know what I mean. Think of the sweatiest, dirtiest, raunchiest, kinkiest sex you ever had - and multiply by two. It's that good.

    If the sweatiest, dirtiest, raunchiest, kinkiest sex I ever had actually involved expensive specialty chocolates, should I multiply by four, eight, or just expect a stack overflow?

    Umm, speaking purely hypothetically, of course.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    1. Re:I'm Marianne Faithful, you insensitive clod! by tomhudson · · Score: 1

      If you've ever tasted some of the more expensive specialty chocolates, you'll know what I mean. Think of the sweatiest, dirtiest, raunchiest, kinkiest sex you ever had - and multiply by two. It's that good.

      If the sweatiest, dirtiest, raunchiest, kinkiest sex I ever had actually involved expensive specialty chocolates, should I multiply by four, eight, or just expect a stack overflow?

      Umm, speaking purely hypothetically, of course.

      Hypothetically speaking? I would be hoping that you already had your ... um ... stack ... um ... overflow ...

      But if it involved expensive chocolates AND some really good rum, amaretto, or gin, definitely double up on the points.

      Bonus if it was zombies.

  52. Re:the Roomba people sell a programmable platform by Trepidity · · Score: 1

    Ah yeah, it looks like this is the cut-price "feed it alkalines" model. You can get the one with a rechargeable battery and dock for the dearer price point of $220.

  53. Re:the Roomba people sell a programmable platform by mirix · · Score: 1

    I guess if the only difference between these two is the battery and charger, at $80, might be wiser to get the cheaper one, and pick those up on ebay? Guess I'll have to look into it some more.

    Have you hacked on them at all, yourself?

    --
    Sent from my PDP-11
  54. Start them on programming first! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There are two things you'll need for a good robotics project - drive and steerage.

    Drive is all about getting the right motors or actuators and matching them up to the right parts (simply coupling a component to a small motor shaft is much more difficult than it needs to be) and unless you get a kit where the physics and mechanics aspects have already been worked out for you, you'll end up with motors that are either too heavy or not powerful enough and it will take weeks or months of frustration before you can get anything even moving. You'll also be way over budget before you know it.

    Steerage (cybernetics) is mostly about keeping track of where you are and where you're going (e.g. through sensors) and then feeding that back to a decision engine that tries to achieve some underlying goal. Unless you have a specific goal or problem you'd like to solve, it's likely that neither you nor the kids will produce anything that works, though you could always try to solve mazes if you really want to. Does that really sound interesting?

    But if these kids don't have any programming experience, then climbing that mountain as well as the robotics mountain is overly ambitious. Teach them some programming first - see if they have the chops for that. Then you can use that to lead them towards making a cool gadget that they will love, using a small board device.

    There are plenty of such things around - the BASIC stamp is best for propeller, the Arduino is best for AVR, but my personal favorite is the ARM because it packs so much more punch for much the same price. For instance, check out the MBED [mbed.org] for around $60. It has a fairly simple library interface, an online IDE in which you can easily share code, and plenty of peripherals that you can add on using a solderless breadboard and some jumper pins. For instance, you can add breakout boards (easily available and cheap from SparkFun [sparkfun.com]) for ethernet, SD cards, USB connectors, etc. For comparison, with an Arduino you'd need an extra shield (circuit board) and an extra library for each of these, and you'd get basic functionality at best. With a modern system on chip like the ARM Cortex M3, they're built into the processor - you just need to wire them up.

    For instance, you could use a translucent rubber cat mold, some LEDs and a speaker to make a neat gadget that polls the kid's emails, and glows different colors and makes different meows and hisses when emails (or tweets, or facebook events) come in from different senders. With the MBED library doing the brunt of the work that might take a hundred lines of code, and it would be an instructive programming project that has the kid working with peripherals and networking.

    As an added bonus, it has several PWM output channels, so you can drive servo motors with it, or even steppers with the addition of another $10 breakout board from Pololu [pololu.com]. So you can build a robot with the same kit, once their programming skills have developed and they're actually interested.

  55. And electronics lab kits by plopez · · Score: 1

    Such as the Radio Shack kits. They come with text books that walk you through concepts. A bit lower level than a robotics kit but I think it is still worth it. BTW, it sounds like Heath Kit is back!

    --
    putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
  56. Arduino by echusarcana · · Score: 1
    My 12 year old powered went through the Arduino introduction kit + book sold by http://www.creatroninc.com/. It was a two or three nights and he had worked through all the experiments and got a nice introduction to C programming as well.

    My boys also had a summer camp using Lego Mindstorms, however, the NXT system seems more like a toy. In a week at camp they really weren't encouraged to use sensors or programming involving decisions.

  57. Re:the Roomba people sell a programmable platform by theshowmecanuck · · Score: 1

    How about a programmable sybian?

    --
    -- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
  58. buy a used lego mindstorms kit on eBay by mixed_signal · · Score: 1

    You should check eBay for used Mindstorms kits. Even the older first generation kits or NXT (not NXT 2.0) kits have a lot to offer, and are just at the top end of your price range. The graphical programming environment (NXT-G) is very easy to learn. I've been working with an informal group of parents and kids that want to get ready to start an FLL team next year, and the kids are able to make the NXT bot do things within minutes (okay, maybe 5 to 10 minutes) of getting started with the software (and a chassis ready to go).

    The Lego engineers have done a darn good job making robotics accessible. I considered for myself building up breadboards with microcontrollers, etc. but that's more for me. For the kids, the used NXT set has been fast and easy way for them to get to level that would take *much* longer with other approaches. I think most 10-year-olds will get board very quickly unless they can hit the ground running, and the NXT system does just that.

    By the way, the older NXT kits can be upgraded to some degree with additional parts and sensors, and the FLL allows use of even the older Mindstorms kits, so it's not a dead-end purchase.

  59. 10x more expensive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you want your kid to have a fast track into the industry software-wise, I can't recommend higher Willow Garage's TurtleBot, though at $1000 it's way above your price range. It's essentially a cheap platform that uses the same software as the most advanced research robots today. If he learns how to use ROS with this thing, it will give him a massive head start.

  60. Pico board and Scratch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't know about the price but they seems entry level. You can connect modules in the scratch ide to command the pico board and recive feedback.

  61. Wifi racer + phone by bmidgley · · Score: 1

    Hey, brookstone has a wifi-controlled car that I bought for this very reason (for my daughter who has been asking for a robot she can program).

    I have figured out the control protocol and my plan is to attach a smartphone to the car and work together with her on some ways to have it smartly control the car. A phone already has much better cpu and sensors (camera, gps) than something like a low-end mindstorm has.

    There should be no soldering required. I also want to focus on software. I'll let you know in a couple of months how it's going :)

  62. a cheap arduino robot kit will make it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Check this arduino kit. You get a robot. With sensor and a activities manual for a really good price

    Http://robosavvy.com/store/popbot

  63. No Kit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I would suggest an Arduino board, and a link to Hackaday (or Instructables). The possibilities are unlimited.

    However, you may want to start out with something that does not require programming, like a remote control blimp kit - its kinetic, interactive, and can get them hooked on building things. Few people want to program - they want to make things that need to be programmed. I am amazed at the circuits built with 555 chips that would normally be built with micro-controllers, like self balancing 2 wheeled robots.

  64. Re:the Roomba people sell a programmable platform by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Or skip the batteries all together and just replace the plug end of a suitable wall wart/laptop charger/etc with alligator clips and run it with that.

  65. Root kits? by ihaveamo · · Score: 1

    I read this waaay too late at night. I read it (twice) as "Entry level root kits for young teenagers".

    I was going to offer my european promotional copy of Michael Jackson's 2001 single "You Rock My World". From Sony of course.

  66. Boe Bot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Check out the Boe Bot from Parallax. It's pretty easy to program (pBASIC) and all the parts required to make it go are in the box.

  67. Finch Robot by Rtarara · · Score: 1

    The Finch Robot was developed by CMU to teach programming using robots for a reasonable price. You can use Java, Python, C++, Visual Basic, Processing, and Scala. They have student oriented IDEs that you can download or you can use whatever one you'd like and are familiar with. The robot has a number of sensors including light, temperature, and obstacle sensors. It has accelerometers, motors, a buzzer, a color beak LED and a pen mount for drawing capability. It comes in at $99, so just under budget. It has a large software focus as I don't think you can really take it apart. You can do quite a lot with it in any case. I'd recommend it as it's really designed to teach programming in a fun way and it's a great deal if you aren't in the market for the fancier (and very expensive) robotics kits. http://www.finchrobot.com/

  68. Cool looking starter kit by kgchillin · · Score: 1

    Here's an Arduino offshoot that's got the software support of Arduino, but flexibility with add-on modules: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/upgradeindustries/boardx-the-open-source-miniature-motherboard-redem