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Average Web Page Approaches 1MB

MrSeb writes "According to new research from HTTP Archive, which regularly scans the internet's most popular destinations, the average size of a single web page is now 965 kilobytes, up more than 30% from last year's average of 702KB. This rapid growth is fairly normal for the internet — the average web page was 14KB in 1995, 93KB by 2003, and 300KB in 2008 — but by burrowing a little deeper into HTTP Archive's recent data, we can discern some interesting trends. Between 2010 and 2011, the average amount of Flash content downloaded stayed exactly the same — 90KB — but JavaScript experienced massive growth from 113KB to 172KB. The amount of HTML, CSS, and images on websites also showed a significant increase year over year. There is absolutely no doubt that these trends are attributable to the death throes of Flash and emergence of HTML5 and its open web cohorts." If you have a personal home page, how big is it?

319 comments

  1. Hallelujah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    It's Huge baby!

    1. Re:Hallelujah by rwise2112 · · Score: 4, Funny

      That's what she said!

      --

      "For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert"
    2. Re:Hallelujah by g0bshiTe · · Score: 5, Funny

      It's not the size of your homepage, it's how you use it.

      --
      I am Bennett Haselton! I am Bennett Haselton!
    3. Re:Hallelujah by Larryish · · Score: 1, Funny

      If you have a personal home page, how big is it?

      My web page is frickin' HUGE!!!!1 to help compensate for my tiny penis.

      1:1 scale representation of my penis:

      8===D

    4. Re:Hallelujah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah yes. The excuse for dialup users everywhere.

    5. Re:Hallelujah by FyRE666 · · Score: 1

      Just visited a site with 1.4MB of Javascript - used to display an image carousel and do some Google analytics. 1.4 fucking megs. Ridiculous.

    6. Re:Hallelujah by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      That's a little bit ridiculous. I have a Javascript file about the same size for my biggest application, and that file is the main admin file for the online learning system that lets admins set up users, user groups, content, content groups, learning tracks, classroom sessions, webinars, email campaigns, news articles, manual record entry, various reports, settings, and other admin tools. The content management alone is about a quarter of the total size. So yeah, a little more than images and analytics.

      Of course, when that file gets delivered to the user it's only 140KB across the wire due to minifying and server-side compression.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
  2. How Big? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    That's rather personal.

    1. Re:How Big? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Everybody knows it's not how big your home page is, but how you use it.

      Seriously. No Flash, no or limited JavaScript, appropriately compressed images (if any), et cetera. A home page can be pretty efficient and still be thoroughly, um, effective.

    2. Re:How Big? by Pharmboy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well, I don't mind bragging about mine. I was 100k, but now has swollen to 150k this year. As to *real* servers, I try to keep our ecommerce pages below 250k for gateway pages. Until this year, I tried to keep them under 150k. Up until 2008, 100k was the target. Before 2003, 50k. This is kind of light, and a few pages bust this, but very few. Before 2000, I used to spend lots of time just optimizing graphics, now I just use some common sense, PS, and very little time.

      What I have found is that the total k of data isn't as important as the number of items and hosts the page calls. I find I can make my pages faster by using image maps, which make larger images size (12 images 1 image of all 12 items) but load faster because it takes less connects. There are a few tools online that can help you figure out total load times. Nowadays, load time is NOT purely a function of the size of the data. If you can cut down on the number of GETS and cross domain GETS (ie: DNS lookups) you can radically cut down load time and reliability.

      Also, pages that don't need to be dynamic, shouldn't be. Our gateway (to product categories) pages are generated as we update the site, and stored static. This allows them to be cached. It sounds old fashioned, but the fact is that it greatly increases perceived latency. I am amazed at how many websites are generated via PHP and SQL on the fly, yet aren't updated more than a couple times a day or less. That is a lot of wasted CPU cycles on the server, and a lot of wasted potential for caching, both locally and down the line. And yes, it makes your website load slower, making it seem like your pages are larger than they are.

      --
      Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
    3. Re:How Big? by Burning1 · · Score: 2

      Also, pages that don't need to be dynamic, shouldn't be. Our gateway (to product categories) pages are generated as we update the site, and stored static. This allows them to be cached. It sounds old fashioned, but the fact is that it greatly increases perceived latency. I am amazed at how many websites are generated via PHP and SQL on the fly, yet aren't updated more than a couple times a day or less. That is a lot of wasted CPU cycles on the server, and a lot of wasted potential for caching, both locally and down the line. And yes, it makes your website load slower, making it seem like your pages are larger than they are.

      With a good caching engine, dynamically generated webpages should be nearly as fast as a static page - the page it's self is parsed and cached, then only re-parsed if the input changes.

    4. Re:How Big? by guruevi · · Score: 1

      I have the same sentiments about size however a decent PHP/SQL system uses an optimizer (such as Zend, eAccelerator or APC) and databases use a cache too (whether it's built-in or memcached or so) so any unchanged pages and even previously used SQL queries are practically loaded from disk or memory. It's true for very large systems that have lots of hits that pre-compiling and caching as static is a lot better but for smaller pages the overhead of implementing it alone is worse than actually taking the hit.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    5. Re:How Big? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uuum, I remember doing pages with GIFs below 300 bytes! Over 100 kB *total* (including packet headers) was taboo for the front page of our site, which was the biggest portal on the web on our continent at the time.

      But the sites of today have nothing to do with the sites of the past anymore. The first page may be a lot bigger, but that is only because of two reasons: 1. The pictures had to become bigger. Nobody accepts 250px wide side-bars anymore, on his 1920px screen. And 2. because we are now more efficient.
      See, I may be a bit ahead of the curve here*, but I have completely stopped the old style of "click a link, a new page loads, and so on". Instead I load everything that all "pages" need anyway on the actual page load, and what the user perceives as "pages" is loaded via AJAX into the current page. That way I don’t have to re-transmit anything, the browser doesn’t have to parse, interpret, decode and initialize anything, and everything goes way quicker.
      Yes, sadly this breaks the back/forward functionality, as I can't (and probably shouldn't) catch and override that. I hate that fact too. But I tend to write web-applications anyway where "going back to the last page" makes no sense, and I always support opening stuff in tabs.

      Moral of the story: TFA is comparing apples (static stateless web pages) and oranges (dynamic stateful web applications).

      * I’m writing web applications since 1999, and used AJAX since years before the API was even invented. (The trick is to put your packet in a form field and POST that to the server for the uplink, and have a infinitely "loading" page with JSON in the downlink, both in object tags 1px big and with a BG color showing the state of the packets for nice blinkenlights. :) We used to tunnel encrypted and compressed file system protocols over them in 2004.

    6. Re:How Big? by segin · · Score: 2

      You should see what Google does with anchors in Gmail's interface - it's AJAX and history navigation works pretty much like it should if it wasn't. Please don't hold me to it, but from what I understand, you just have to manage to change the # and everything after it in the URL bar to convince the browser that it's a new page. How else do you think clicking "Back" in a Wikipedia page after clicking in a section link takes you back to the scroll position in the same page you were at before you clicked? But like I said, don't hold me to it entirely, I might be talking out of my arse. Anyone with tips on how it's done: Reply to me and/or parent and point us in the right direction on how that's done. I'd like to use it for a site that I am certain would benefit from AJAX "pages", as it's almost completely static HTML, with everything outside the main body (aside from the navbar to the left) remains static across pages.

    7. Re:How Big? by buchner.johannes · · Score: 3, Informative

      With a good caching engine, dynamically generated webpages should be nearly as fast as a static page - the page it's self is parsed and cached, then only re-parsed if the input changes.

      The Linux kernel can take a file and put it on the socket without Apache loading it even partially into memory. *This* is fast.

      --
      NB: The message above might reflect my opinion right now, but not necessarily tomorrow or next year.
    8. Re:How Big? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I managed to grow 200kb in just two weeks! Click here to see how!

    9. Re:How Big? by Pharmboy · · Score: 3

      No rational ecommerce site designs for a 1920 wide screen. You always design for the lowest common denominator. Most customers aren't computer geeks, and you want everyone's money, not just the smart peoples. Personal websites (the topic of the story) yes, but never for money making websites. We still design around a maximum width of 900 pixels (menus plus 760px of actual content), and will for some time. This allows for for scroll bars and a little buffer on a 1024x768 screen, or for half of a 1080p screen. It also makes it readable from tablets and phones without having multiple code bases, which is prohibitively expensive for a small to medium sized ecommerce site.

      --
      Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
    10. Re:How Big? by tepples · · Score: 1

      the page it's self is parsed and cached, then only re-parsed if the input changes.

      And when the input includes the session ID of the logged-in user, that changes rawther often.

    11. Re:How Big? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      However for extremely heavy loads...you're better off with a lighter weight server, like nginx. nginx with epoll and sendfile, moves a lot of porn on some servers I admin ;)

  3. can't wait to see these on my phone! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's a good thing phone carriers don't limit your data consumption....

    oh wait..

    1. Re:can't wait to see these on my phone! by MichaelSmith · · Score: 3, Informative

      The browser on my phone crashes on pages that size, including most articles on slashdot, so the data it uses is somewhat self limiting.

    2. Re:can't wait to see these on my phone! by AliasMarlowe · · Score: 1

      It's a good thing phone carriers don't limit your data consumption....

      oh wait..

      Yes, it is a good thing. We get unlimited 3G data for an increment of 3euro/month on the basic cellphone service per phone. It's only a 384kbps data service, but it can be used non-stop without incurring any extra fees. For the three cellphones I pay for (me and two kids), the combined bill rarely reaches 20euro/month, including taxes and all calls.

      Oh wait... you weren't actually being facetious, were you?

      --
      Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
    3. Re:can't wait to see these on my phone! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At least no US carriers do, to my knowledge. It must be different elsewhere.

    4. Re:can't wait to see these on my phone! by Surkow · · Score: 1

      Anecdotal evidence makes it true for everyone! On a more serious note, with these data restrictions you'll need browsers like Opera Mini. Opera mini sends requests for web pages through Opera Software's servers, which compress all HTTP data before sending it to your phone.

    5. Re:can't wait to see these on my phone! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's funny because back in the day of dialup in the mid 90s, I remember being pissed how tomshardware (which I haven't visited in 10yrs) used to be 600KB and had a refresh date in the past so that your browser wouldn't cache anything.

    6. Re:can't wait to see these on my phone! by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      Isn't http compressed anyway? I suppose you mean that some content is scaled.

    7. Re:can't wait to see these on my phone! by hipp5 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The phone issue is interesting. I was just on the "How Much Data Do You Need?" page for a local provider. You slide the bar for various things, like how many web pages you visit in a month (as if anyone really knows that). Their assumption was 0.17MB/page. I know there are mobile versions of pages and such, but this still seems like a gross underestimate given this story.

    8. Re:can't wait to see these on my phone! by Surkow · · Score: 1

      Yes, it scales the content, like images.

    9. Re:can't wait to see these on my phone! by Tyler+Eaves · · Score: 1

      But this story also gravely overestimates viewing pages on the same site. In the typical case you'll only download the js/css/logos etc once per visit, not everything on every page load.

      --
      TODO: Something witty here...
    10. Re:can't wait to see these on my phone! by webnut77 · · Score: 1

      ... refresh date in the past so that your browser wouldn't cache anything.

      Squid can be set up to ignore this and cache anyway. Look at refresh_pattern's operands.

    11. Re:can't wait to see these on my phone! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      i don't have a smartphone, but i use dialup in rural village. waiting for some big pages take ages to load. i have to disable loading of images. but some links are images. oh well. yahoo.com is slow but google.com load fast. ok i will stop complaining. lol

      oh btw my village has no g3 service, only 1800 MHz mobile phone g2 i think. we don't even have edge / no data, just voice

    12. Re:can't wait to see these on my phone! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No its not always compressed, on an apache server you need mod_gzip or mod_deflate enabled.

    13. Re:can't wait to see these on my phone! by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      While the "average" page may be getting bigger, the pages designed for mobile devices are much smaller and usually easier to read and navigate. I've seen people start to pay attention to how fast the page loads on Android or iPads. This means that I suspect we will start to see that either stabilized or start to shrink in the short term. Of course, there are people who continue to insist on using Flash for pages are going to be in for a rude surprise.

      My site comes in at 920799 bytes for the front page, much of that is duplicated (via CSS) on other pages making for faster load.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    14. Re:can't wait to see these on my phone! by segin · · Score: 1

      Standard Opera Mobile on beefier phones (newer versions, at least) can use Opera Turbo to gain the benefits of Opera Mini while still delivering an experience beyond Opera Mini.

    15. Re:can't wait to see these on my phone! by segin · · Score: 1

      Not always, and not in the way Opera Mini or Opera Turbo for full Opera Mobile and Opera Desktop does it.

    16. Re:can't wait to see these on my phone! by segin · · Score: 1

      As long as they don't do some stupid shit like setting the extra support files to have a cache expiry date to sometime in the past, thus negating the caching altogether.

    17. Re:can't wait to see these on my phone! by segin · · Score: 1

      If you're on a PC, I'd recommend downloading and installing the latest Opera release if you don't mind waiting on the download. And yes, 1800MHz is 2G GSM (the DCS - Digital Cellular Service band). Opera has a feature called "Opera Turbo", which is proprietary (!) compression technology that'll help greatly on dial-up and GPRS (which, as you stated, is unavailable on your GSM carrier) networks.

      P.S. to others reading the thread, Yes, I talk about Opera a lot, but I use Google Chrome as my daily driver on every PC. Just that Opera Turbo helps on slow connections, in a similar capacity as proprietary ISP dial-up compression, except it's ISP-neutral instead of browser-neutral.

    18. Re:can't wait to see these on my phone! by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      Not sure I want all my browsing to go through their servers.

    19. Re:can't wait to see these on my phone! by omfgnosis · · Score: 1

      And more often than not people are using commonly used JavaScript files (like jQuery) from CDN servers where, hopefully, the request will be cached on the first page load anyway. In the case of jQuery(/UI), that's anywhere from 31KB to 605KB.

    20. Re:can't wait to see these on my phone! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't worry. Nobody is that crazy. Everyone with half a brain has a small detection routine for mobile/handheld devices, and redirects you to a special mobile site (in case you didn't already open it directly, as Google does that automatically), where the design is adapted to the needs of such users. (Much smaller or barely any images, narrower layout, much larger buttons and controls, more minimalist code, no extra slow and bloated third-party crap, etc.)
      I've been doing this since 2004 for my clients, and it's really not much extra work, if you're an actual professional. (We're still overrun with wannabes who think HTML is a programming language though, so beware.)

    21. Re:can't wait to see these on my phone! by tepples · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but how much would it cost to emigrate to a place that uses euros instead of dollars?

    22. Re:can't wait to see these on my phone! by Politburo · · Score: 1

      I quickly got sick of crippled mobile sites and set my UI for mobile browsing to Windows (no data cap).

      Examples of crippled sites.. the mobile version of one discussion website didn't have functionality to post a comment. And I think a news site would only give you 'top stories', not the full listing. And then there are the sites that saw you were on mobile and would just say "Sorry our site is incompatible with mobile devices". Meanwhile, it worked fine with a Windows UI..

    23. Re:can't wait to see these on my phone! by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      While the "average" page may be getting bigger, the pages designed for mobile devices are much smaller and usually easier to read and navigate.

      That's a faiilure on the webmaster's part; you should NOT have to code for different devices, screens, browsers, or resolutions unless you suck at HTML. Using exact coordinates rather than percentages is just fucking STUPID. You have screen sizes ranging from two inches to seventy inches and resolutions ranging from 1190s WebTV to 1080p and probably better by now. If your text won't wrap, your page sucks. If I have a horizontal scroll bar, your page sucks. If 2/3 of that sixty inch 1080p is blank, your page sucks. If your page won't completely display on any screen using any device and any browser, YOUR PAGE SUCKS. If any of your pages fail at any of the above, you suck as a webmaster.

      You cannot exactly control a web page like you can a poster or a magazine. I wish people would get that through their damned heads; I hate pulling out my phone to surf while I'm in a waiting room, and have the first five sites I try to access not display at all.

      This is the 21st century. If your page won't render on any internet-capable phone, your page sucks and you suck as a webmaster. Jesus, I just looked up some of my old sites from 1997 on archive.org using my phone, and they all rendered just fine.

      Kids, learn HTML (and javascript and CSS if what you want to do demands it), and learn how to write cross-platform code. Jees, kids, this stuff ain't hard, why does everybody fuck it up so badly?

  4. Not surprised by kannibal_klown · · Score: 4, Insightful

    With the growth of Javascript libraries like JQuery for more UI features, more images, I can see it reaching that high.

    Meanwhile, web developers don't care because more and more people are getting faster and faster broadband speeds. So as long as the page-load metric works OK on their rig or perhaps what the envision most of their viewers have... they think it's all OK.

    1. Re:Not surprised by Fujisawa+Sensei · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Apparently it is because users are still hitting their websites.

      --
      If someone is passing you on the right, you are an asshole for driving in the wrong lane.
    2. Re:Not surprised by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Web developers don't care because the majority of their images/css/js is cacheable by each visitor (and most people have jQuery cached from the official site and many sites link to that directly). 1MB page but it's only 45k on the next visit.

    3. Re:Not surprised by Trepidity · · Score: 1

      That'd be an interesting refinement, attempting to get numbers for typical data loaded after caching. Would be hard to come up with a "typical" user profile to use at various times in history for comparison, though.

    4. Re:Not surprised by mjwalshe · · Score: 0

      No its because developers are cutting and pasting large number of of inefficient javascript files (which they only use say 10% ) which both increases page weight and download time.

      Web performance is a major issue which a lot of "web" developers never consider unfortunately.

    5. Re:Not surprised by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The personal blog is 319 kB at first load. A good bit of that are assets that are shared across the site or common js libraries from offsite.

      I'd like to know what the second page's cost is.

    6. Re:Not surprised by Crudely_Indecent · · Score: 1

      Certainly, JS frameworks do contribute to the total size of a page, that framework is generally cached and isn't re-downloaded on subsequent pages on the same site. So, your 965KB page just dropped to 800KB after the first page load. Images that are carried through a site (logos, widget buttons, backgrounds) can also only be counted on the first page load.

      I tend to focus on keeping things small, reusing anything I can. Some web developers do care...at least I do.

      --


      "Lame" - Galaxar
    7. Re:Not surprised by CastrTroy · · Score: 2

      Would be something interesting if the browser vendors collected anonymous usage data though. Not even which sites you visited, but just stuff that would be useful to the developers, like page size, time to download, time to render, cache hit frequency. Obviously many people would want to turn this off, but if you got enough people using it, you could get some really interesting data. As long as you don't collect information about which sites are being visited, but rather the characteristics of the sites being loaded, I don't think people would have too much of a problem.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    8. Re:Not surprised by TheSpoom · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yup. Google helps us out here. If we're using offsite resources like that, there's a fair likelihood that it's cached in the user's browser even if it's the first time they've visited the site.

      --
      It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
      - E. Debs
    9. Re:Not surprised by wmbetts · · Score: 1

      Good web developers do take that into consideration. I've had both lead and non-lead positions and one thing we always did was check the actual size of the complete page, load times, and several other things. I've even go so far as to check sites on a dial up account to see how they preformed. Sometimes it gets a little nit picky, but if you care about the user experience it's something you have to do.

      --
      "Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me". - stolen from Dan C alt.os.linux.slackware
    10. Re:Not surprised by jenn_13 · · Score: 2

      I don't know about other developers, but I do care, and try to keep pages small. More and more people are accessing the web on mobile devices, so minimizing the data going back and forth, and round trips to the server, is important to user experience. In the design community, designing with mobile devices in mind is a growing practice.

    11. Re:Not surprised by Threni · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Forgive me piggybacking here, but I've a web question. I read Slashdot predominantly on my phone (doesn't everyone?), but once you get 5 or 6 levels of replying in, the posts become unreadable. Each reply has a shorter width then the one above, meaning you end up with a handful of characters per line, and the rest of the horizontal space as just that - space. Is that really how it's supposed to be - completely unreadable? Is there no way of overriding it and saying 'look, I know it's a reply due to the context`. I've tried poking around in the various options within Slashdot, but I don't understand what most of them do, and the so-called help is completely useless and doesn't describe what the options mean nor how to use them. I think the problem is that the designers of Slashdot believe everyone is using a monitor so you'd probably need to be about 30 or 40 levels in to get to the same problem.

      I'm using Dolphin HD on Android but a friend with an Apple phone has the same problem. Is there an answer?

    12. Re:Not surprised by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With the growth of Javascript libraries like JQuery for more UI features, more images, I can see it reaching that high.

      Right, because 60k more JS made the average page size jump by 200+k. Couldn't possibly have had anything to do with more image-laden pages or anything.

      Maybe you should skip this discussion and go back to telling the kids to get off your lawn.

    13. Re:Not surprised by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In my 'typical' usage. I have found it is about 20-35% hit rate, and 3-10% total download bandwidth depending on where I go. Thats if I exclude things like youtube/netflix.

      It is seriously amazing how low the cache hit rate is in the real world.

    14. Re:Not surprised by mjwalshe · · Score: 1

      I wish we had developers as conscientious where I work :-(

    15. Re:Not surprised by webnut77 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yup. Google helps us out here. If we're using offsite resources like that, there's a fair likelihood that it's cached in the user's browser even if it's the first time they've visited the site.

      And then Google also gets to look at the referrer data.

    16. Re:Not surprised by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've even go so far as to check sites on a dial up account to see how they preformed.

      Set absolute heights and widths of your elements (tables, for example) so that the pre-forming doesn't mean content jumping around when images et cetera do finally load for people with slower connections.

    17. Re:Not surprised by omfgnosis · · Score: 1

      Set absolute heights and widths of your elements (tables, for example)

      Or make better design decisions that don't require that kind of rigidity and abuse of table elements.

    18. Re:Not surprised by omfgnosis · · Score: 1

      People also use jQuery UI, which has a significantly larger footprint (a very small part of which is images).

    19. Re:Not surprised by matmota · · Score: 3, Insightful

      First select the "classic discussion system (D1)" under "Discussions" in your options (gear icon). Then, in the settings just below the summary pick the "flat" view instead of "nested".

    20. Re:Not surprised by sdnoob · · Score: 1

      to minimize google's already too-effective data gathering... there's things like the refcontrol addon for firefox. https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/refcontrol/

      you could also build your own repo and redirect the common cdn subdomains to it.. a bit of work but could be worth it in the long run for some.... have actually been looking for some way to automate at least the fetching and organization of all those files, but haven't found anything yet (and not quite to the point of rolling my own)

      as for cdn's that host libraries... google isn't the only game in town...

      http://www.asp.net/ajaxlibrary/cdn.ashx
      http://code.jquery.com/

      we use the last one (hosted by mediatemple) for the sites that we use a cdn for libraries.

    21. Re:Not surprised by Walking+The+Walk · · Score: 1

      If you're just interested in a specific set of comments, you can click on the comment number next to a post. That will load up just that comment and its children. For example, your comment is #38465010. I find it useful because it limits the number of comments. Safari on my poor old iPod Touch can't handle the more popular Slashdot articles due to the mass of comments that get loaded all AJAx-y, so I filter to the most popular comments and then drill into the ones I think will have interesting children.

      --
      A recursive sig
      Can impart wisdom and truth
      Call proc signature()
    22. Re:Not surprised by tepples · · Score: 1

      It is seriously amazing how low the cache hit rate is in the real world.

      Any web page where you have to log in, which has a big comments section, or which allows the user to search and sort, probably won't be cached very long because the page has to be regenerated for each user, for each time someone posts a comment, and for each search query.

    23. Re:Not surprised by tepples · · Score: 1

      Yeah, like Flash. In some markets, more people have IE 6-8 and Flash Player than have a modern browser (IE 9+, Firefox, Chrome, etc.).

    24. Re:Not surprised by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Web performance is a major issue which a lot of web "developers" never consider unfortunately.

      FTFY. Add "cutting and pasting large number of of inefficient javascript files (which they only use say 10% )" to my list of things that make you suck at being a web developer.

    25. Re:Not surprised by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      I wish you wouldn't have responded to him. He's an AC so he won't see your comment, and he's at -1 so nobody will see his -- except through yours. But since you did, I'll go farther and add that absolute positioning is RETARDED. Screens range for two inches to seventy inches, with resolutions from 640x480 to 1080p, with some screens portrait and some landscape, and with different aspect ratios. It isn't a damned magazine page where you can make it look exectly like you want it, because you CAN'T. Not on every device and every screen. You should strive to make your pages as useable and readable as humanly possible. People really don't give a flying frog about your layout or what the damned thing looks like, they care about the content. "Cool" web pages are seldom good web pages.

    26. Re:Not surprised by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      In the design community, designing with mobile devices in mind is a growing practice.

      My old Motorola Razr (the old flip phone Razr, not the new Android) was able to get on the internet, and that thing was replaced YEARS ago. At the rate these developers are "growing" there'll be something else to supplant phones and they'll be ignoring the new platform and focusing on the phones nobody is using for teh internet any more. They won't code for the new thing until it, too, is used less than the even newer thing.

    27. Re:Not surprised by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      except generated part "the page" as you call it that is different/non-static is only 10-20KB big, and remaining of page that gets cached (images/JS/CSS/flash) is 1MB even if those 10KB are not cached it is not really that important as long as those 1MB of static content has far future expiry headers

  5. Missing data by instagib · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Average information content - does a page view give me more insight as a user now than it did 10 years ago?

    1. Re:Missing data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      10 years ago online video was virtually nonexistent, and where it did exist it was never larger than 320x240. Pictures were equally low resolution and page formatting was minimal. Allowing user comments was rare, and user contribution based sites like YouTube and Wikipedia were nonexistent. Oh yea, and the "blink" tag was still popular. So yes, I would say the amount of information has increased significantly.

    2. Re:Missing data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Suggest a metric to judge that by.

    3. Re:Missing data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't forget the ad data. Most pages will have several large Flash apps, and usually 1-2 of them have a lot of code, mainly because trying every single browser and add-on as a preinstall of botnet software takes a lot of space and CPU time.

    4. Re:Missing data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      According to the article summary, there's more HTML/JS (100+KB) downloaded then there is on the average Flash (90KB) content. It doesn't specifically state that ads are not included, and probably require significantly more work to exclude...

      So in essence, one could almost say that HTML5 is more inefficient than Flash when it comes to bandwidth.

    5. Re:Missing data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It certainly gives you more logos, clip art and ads.

    6. Re:Missing data by reverius · · Score: 1

      user contribution based sites like YouTube and Wikipedia were nonexistent.

      Maybe Youtube wasn't around, but according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia, Wikipedia was started on January 15, 2001 (almost 11 years ago).

    7. Re:Missing data by bonch · · Score: 2

      10 years ago was 2002. You think that in 2002, online video was virtually nonexistent, pictures were all low resolution, and allowing user comments was rare? Video sites like Ebaumsworld were already posting user-submitted videos. Instead of Facebook pages, people had Myspace pages. And no, the blink tag was not still popular--at that point it only existed on old Geocities sites and other leftovers from the 90s.

      Information-wise, the web has barely changed. Slashdot was several years old at that point and already posting the same things posts now.

    8. Re:Missing data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Average information content probably stayed the same --"insignificant"-- so the content-to-bulk ratio actually went down. Which fits well in the trend that became painfully obvious at the start of this enduring september. Not to mention the bulk of the data needed to reach the insights. Datamining may be wonderful if you're a datamining geek, but even disregarding all the obvious problems with privacy, are all those new insights really worth all the trouble? "Insights for the sake of insights" are about as useful as solutions looking for a problem to solve. Wonderful and all, if you have exactly that problem. Otherwise, not so much.

    9. Re:Missing data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      off-course it is, Flash ALWAYS has compression on, and there are still some cases where designers forget to gzip page/includes, also JS and CSS, HTML also are all text formats, and binary formats like flash are much smaller for same amount of information, not to mention a lot of things you would load JS library (100kb-200kb extra) in Flash is included as part of default API, images in flash can be vector instead of gif/jpeg (smaller for simple ones) list goes on ...

    10. Re:Missing data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The blink tag died out long before 10 years ago, and the web was generally a much moe imaginative place, the linux folk generally missedo ut because everyone was still coding mostly for IE, but people were doing interesting things in the days before social networking killed the webmaster. The whole ajax crze isn;t really new, ten years ago, it was called DHTML and didn;t work all that well outside of IE (given that xmlhttprequest was an IE-only thing).

      Bandwidth was the limiting factor, so you didn't have much video or audio, but there was loads of flash and shockwave everywhere. Page sizes have gone up, and design has shifted from more avant-garde designs to mainly tedious template based design, but not much else has changed.

  6. Attributable to the death of flash? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Horse hockey! Don't waste our time posting stuff like this.

    1. Re:Attributable to the death of flash? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, Flash is dead, don't you know? All the video people watch on YouTube, Hulu, etc., is now being transmitted as HTML. What looks like pixels is in fact huge streams of colored text.

      This "article" looks like yet another covert Apple slashvertisement in their failed campaign against Flash.

      Remember when web video used Quicktime? Yeah, Flash totally sucks compared to Apple's (non) solutions, eh?

    2. Re:Attributable to the death of flash? by omfgnosis · · Score: 1

      I can't say this for Hulu, but I haven't used Flash on Youtube for a long time. In fact, in my case, the Youtube videos I've watched are rendered in Quicktime. HTML5 video doesn't have the same extensibility as Flash video does, but for most purposes that's just fine. Unfortunately, H.264 had to win to make that possible... but it has, again unfortunately, won.

  7. hmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Around 30kb...

  8. Ad Content by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    And how much of it is ads?

    1. Re:Ad Content by Idbar · · Score: 4, Funny

      My webpage is just about 1k. But you have you watch a 30 sec. interlaced Bluray quality ad before you can see it.

    2. Re:Ad Content by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Interlaced? Fuck you!

    3. Re:Ad Content by mjwx · · Score: 1

      My webpage is just about 1k. But you have you watch a 30 sec. interlaced Bluray quality ad before you can see it.

      All I get is a blank screen for 30 seconds.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  9. Please remember the dial-up users... by MetricT · · Score: 4, Informative

    and the 3G users, and the satellite users, and everyone else that has a low-bandwidth and/or high cost per byte connection.

    My parents can't get DSL or cable. They're stuck with 22k dial-up, and use AdBlock Plus, NoFlash, and Propel accelerator with compression set to the point where you can barely recognize photos, and it still takes 2 minutes for a reasonably normal page (CNN, MSNBC) to load, much less anything with a ton of Javascript or Flash.

    Can't websites automatically detect connection speed the first time a client visits, and store a cookie so that us slow people get a nice, simple website?

    Oh, and Propel, please move to JPEG2000 and XZ compression. Some people need every byte they can get.

    1. Re:Please remember the dial-up users... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Out of curiosity, where do your parents live?

    2. Re:Please remember the dial-up users... by kinarduk · · Score: 1
    3. Re:Please remember the dial-up users... by MetricT · · Score: 1

      They live in Ashland City, TN. I have a 10 Gb pipe at work, and can barely use SSH at their house. The contrast is amazing.

    4. Re:Please remember the dial-up users... by MetricT · · Score: 1

      I've used Lynx since the early 90's, but it's not a realistic solution for my parents. Since they have both Chrome and Firefox installed, I disabled loading photos in Firefox to give them something Lynx-like, but it renders a number of sites unreadable, primarily ones that validator.w3.org barf at.

    5. Re:Please remember the dial-up users... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where is "work"? I'd like to move.

    6. Re:Please remember the dial-up users... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have. A few sights (like slashdot for example) look good, but your typical webpage as shown in lynx:

      [spacer.png] [logo.png] [spacer.png] [bodybg.jpg] [bodybg2.jpg] [EMBED] [bodybg3.jpg] [itunes.jpg]
            [bodybg4.jpg] [bodybg5.jpg] [newrecord.png] [spacerbottom.png] [store.png] [mailinglist.png] [fb.png]
                                              [twitter.png] [amazon.png] [spacerbottom2.png] [spacerbottom3.png]

      You'll also notice that pages like google have a dozen links you have to scroll through just to get to the part you use, which a mouse can bypass faster than the Tab key in a graphic browser.

    7. Re:Please remember the dial-up users... by jewelie · · Score: 1

      Opera Mini, Emulated. Seriously!

    8. Re:Please remember the dial-up users... by Mitreya · · Score: 2
      Can't websites automatically detect connection speed the first time a client visits, and store a cookie so that us slow people get a nice, simple website?

      Ooooh, ooooh, I have a better idea! Can't website ditch the f**cking crap they now use (reaching 1MB average?) and just re-do their site as a nice, simple website that you describe?
      I will never understand why any website would have a legitimate need for background music. Or an interactive (a-la-DVD opening screen) navigation with 1-second delay and buzzing sounds. And don't get me started on pages with 2-3 video clips playing, sometimes with sound (not every computer I use has blockers installed). So many pages take a couple of second to load on a reasonably fast broadband. Often stopping for 10 seconds because some 3-rd party website is lagging behind.
      Oh, and they should get off my lawn, too.

    9. Re:Please remember the dial-up users... by gordo3000 · · Score: 1

      you really want developers to maintain a second version of a website for people on severely outdated technology? next you will be telling me you want apps to run on no more than 640 kb of memory.

      but out of curiosity, how is it your parents can't get any type of broadband? comcast in that area severs up cable connections, which aren't great, I know, but they are reasonable.

    10. Re:Please remember the dial-up users... by pckl300 · · Score: 1

      I suppose you could give them a mobile user agent string on their browser if they don't mind viewing all of their content in 300 pixels of width.

      --
      In the beginning, there was null.
    11. Re:Please remember the dial-up users... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Disclaimer: I am not affiliated to them, just a happy user
      Try using fastun.com services. As long as I recall their free service is limited to 1 Mbit/sec which more than plenty for your use.
      If not, if you have available at your house/work/friendly ISP a Linux box, you may setup quite easily ziproxy service, which I guess fasting.com is based on since it features the exact same options.

      Tried for myself - I am too behind a dial up-kind of connection with metered traffic, even if in the umts range.

  10. Size Doesn't Matter by stating_the_obvious · · Score: 4, Funny

    It's not the size of the home page, it's the motion of the .GIF

  11. Ads by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    And.... when running AdBlock Plus, this figure goes down to 100kB. I run AdBlock mostly for the massive speed increase that comes with it.

    1. Re:Ads by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No kidding , the images are larger and served from a half dozen slow ad servers.

    2. Re:Ads by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought that with Ad Block the data was delivered to your browser, it just wasn't all displayed. Doesn't that mean the bandwidth is still u$ed?

    3. Re:Ads by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      hmm great idea, i wonder how many Ad companies would pay for technology/server that just blocks users it detects did not download and view Ads, even 1 cent per page-view and i would be rich ... and best part it is not even that hard to detect/block

  12. People don't know how to do websites... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    My fully featured CMS that used jQuery, jQuery UI, and a lot of heavy library takes 140kb. Learn to optimize people!!

    1. Re:People don't know how to do websites... by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      First we need to finish learning jQuery, jQuery UI, and a lot of heavy libraries.

    2. Re:People don't know how to do websites... by jd · · Score: 1

      I'd have to agree with you on optimizing. Chances are, though, that you could slim down further since not every page includes every feature of every library. The AJAX, CSS and other "enhancing" content never actually used on a given page never needs to be sent over with that page. "Page cleaning" before delivery should really be standard, IMHO -- what's the point of broadband if the page loads no faster than it did on a 56K modem?

      (I've also seen far too many servers with page compression disabled because either the admin didn't know it could be enabled or because of bugs in the server.)

      Of course, if Java hadn't had such limited communication with the browser page, the background libraries could be sent once for a site rather than once for a page, then cached locally on the client.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    3. Re:People don't know how to do websites... by webnut77 · · Score: 1

      Of course, if Java hadn't had such limited communication with the browser page, the background libraries could be sent once for a site rather than once for a page, then cached locally on the client.

      Huh? What chew talking 'bout Willis?

    4. Re:People don't know how to do websites... by jd · · Score: 1

      Java applets could take parameters from the applet tag, but could not "update" the page in any way, read data from an HTML form, communicate with the Javascript, etc, etc, etc. Java applets could ONLY talk to the server that posted them (unless they were signed). They could deliver content via AWT or (in later versions) Swing, but that's it.

      The benefit of Java is that once the browser got a JAR file, it was cached by the client. Let's say you had a dozen pages that all made use of one common JAR file. That JAR file would be delivered with the first applet that used it. It would then be local and would never be sent again whilst it lived in the browser's cache. This compares with Javascript, where if you include a library, that library is part of the web page. It's sent with every single web page it is in.

      With Javascript, you're wanting to do things like validate forms. That's your basic AJAX. The libraries involved don't change -- JQuery is JQuery is JQuery, no matter what parameters you are validating against. Being able to deliver the validation once and be done with it would clearly reduce the weight of the page -- it's shared content, not statically linked content. Javascript makes that hard.

      Logically, a small Java library would be the solution. But Java's sandbox design means you cannot see the page from an applet (so you can't read current form values or post values). The ONLY way to use Java applets in a validated form is to do everything in Java.... ....And Java's GUI uses its own widget set, NOT the browser's, so you can't make Java forms look like HTML forms. Sorry, no can do. The only way to truly mimic AJAX' full range of features in Java is to write a full browser as an applet. Which is moronic, if you're already using one.

      The same applies to CSS. You shouldn't NEED to send the same style sheet with every page. If the CSS were available as a bunch of variables in a Java object, once it's there it's there.

      Why go to these lengths? Well, like I said, write once, deliver once, run many times. Let's say one page has a megabyte of code, but only 4K of actual content. Doing this the way I'm saying you should be able to, it will take you 256 distinct web pages to take 2 megabytes of cache. Which is a lot on a phone. Doing the very same thing the way people ARE writing pages means that you've taken 2 megabytes after a mere two pages and a whopping quarter of a gigabyte after 256.

      With ISPs - especially on phones - wanting to charge by the K and slow your connections through network partisanship, slashing the size of a page to 4K will save you a tonne of money and a tonne of time. THAT what I'm talkin' about.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    5. Re:People don't know how to do websites... by webnut77 · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the explanation.

      Can't say I disagree with you; I don't know anything about java programming. But browsers cache .js, .css, images, etc. The user just needs to bump up the browser cache setting to something like 512MB.

    6. Re:People don't know how to do websites... by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      I don't relly get what you are talking about.
      CSS and JS files are cached by the browser just like any other resource.
      The only way to prevent that is to mark them on the server as non cachable.
      (The same is true for *.jar files. They are not reloaded with every page request. But you covert that point correctly)

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    7. Re:People don't know how to do websites... by jd · · Score: 1

      Most content management systems I've examined embed the javascript and CSS into the page, they don't store the stuff in distinct files. Which is stupid. (This includes custom-written CMS systems, which makes it doubly stupid.)

      Yes, when files are distinct, then they are cached distinctly. You are correct there. And if web programmers were as good as they could be, that would indeed be what happens.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    8. Re:People don't know how to do websites... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      considering one youtube video can be over 200MB (i seen bigger even) your cache would handle less than 3 videos on youtube, considering your disk is probably 1000 GB why not just set cache to unlimited, and clean it when you see you are running out of hard disk space instead?

  13. If you have a homepage by burning-toast · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I have a homepage, and it's only 4.92Kb. Granted it is the "It Works!" page for CentOS which has all of the other text and icons and such but who needs more than that? Do people really have personalized home pages now that Facebook came about (other than some hobbyists or professionals who run a side business)?

    I wonder what the average "Facebook" homepage size is... since that is what most people will be seeing regularly.

    - Toast

    1. Re:If you have a homepage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1.4 MB.. had to wait for the images to load but i got it

      - Buttered Toast

    2. Re:If you have a homepage by wjcofkc · · Score: 2

      I don't know about Facebook but I'm willing to bet that the average MySpace page is up to 5 megabytes. Then again I haven't been there since 07'.

      --
      Brought to you by Carl's Junior.
    3. Re:If you have a homepage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just the fact that you consider your "It Works!" CentOS page to be your homepage, answers why you would ask that.

    4. Re:If you have a homepage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some people's Facebook profile pages reached dizzying heights of around 1-2MB before the Application Widget Cull, IIRC.

    5. Re:If you have a homepage by burning-toast · · Score: 1

      Why, what is your theory? The only reason that page even exists is because I have to host the Google validation page to show ownership of my domain (Google Apps) and didn't have anything else interesting to put up on the site.

      I'm going to laugh if you think it's an old age / generational thing too, but I am curious.

      - Toast

    6. Re:If you have a homepage by umghhh · · Score: 1

      what is this facebook you are talking about and most people will be seeing regularly?

    7. Re:If you have a homepage by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      Do people really have personalized home pages now that Facebook came about (other than some hobbyists or professionals who run a side business)?

      I have a blog (tech notes: static pages compiled with Blogofile and my own photo album plugin). If I get bored with Facebook, I can disconnect without losing any of my posts or photos - or the links to them. If I want faster web hosting than my home DSL provides, I can upload the files to a dirt cheap static host. I have virtually unlimited space with no content restrictions, upload limits, or annual fees over what I'm already paying for Internet access. I definitely fall into your hobbyist/professional category but it's more that I want more control over my web presence than any social network would give me.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
  14. Web Hosting by Buy N Large by ackthpt · · Score: 2

    I think eBay lead the curve on this one. I complained bitterly to them about how long it took their bloated pages to load when I was still on dialup. Nobody cares.

    I suppose the telecoms do. This increases the liklihood of blowing through your monthly bandwidth cap without even watching videos.

    --

    A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    1. Re:Web Hosting by Buy N Large by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, that was you? Too bad, so sad.
       
      -eBay

  15. Not so large by sstern · · Score: 1

    According to pingdom, my home page is 304K, after minification.

    --
    --Steve
    1. Re:Not so large by Carnildo · · Score: 1

      4832 bytes, including all images, stylesheets, and javascript.

      --
      "They redundantly repeated themselves over and over again incessantly without end ad infinitum" -- ibid.
    2. Re:Not so large by 19thNervousBreakdown · · Score: 1

      1678 bytes, and I (and others) use it every day. No JS (CSS3 manages to do everything I want).

      --
      <xml><I><am><so><damn>Web 2.0</damn></so></am></I></xml>
  16. Compression? by s7uar7 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If the bulk of the increase is from javascript wouldn't turning on compression on the web server solve the problem? They're text files, they compress down massively.

    1. Re:Compression? by Daniel_Staal · · Score: 1

      Only if this isn't already counting compression.

      --
      'Sensible' is a curse word.
    2. Re:Compression? by mjwalshe · · Score: 1

      not as much as only including what you need in 1 or 2 files will

    3. Re:Compression? by TheSpoom · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Yes, compression helps (and is generally done automatically in any good Apache configuration). What helps even more from a user's perspective is combining files; basically, in the backend we combine all our Javascript and CSS (or as much as is reasonable) into one file instead of serving it as multiple, separate files linked to the current page. This cuts down on HTTP requests massively and speeds site loading from a user's perspective. Yahoo has a great list of best practices for speeding up sites if you're interested.

      --
      It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
      - E. Debs
    4. Re:Compression? by JobyOne · · Score: 1

      Doesn't HTTP 2.0 include the ability to maintain a constant connection, so that each individual request doesn't need all the "Hi, I'm a server!" overhead?

      Relevant: http://xkcd.com/869/

      --
      Porquoi?
    5. Re:Compression? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not if the javascript is obfuscated/minified.

      A lot of the pre-built libraries like jQuery and Dojo already are.

    6. Re:Compression? by houghi · · Score: 1

      What is even better is to see if you really need that JavaScript at all. For the majority of sites I look at regularly I use http://userstyles.org/ as a plugin. It is not easy doing all these sites, but I can tell you when you have done it and only see the actual content, it makes me happy to look at those sites.

      Sometimes when I look at those sites without the configuration, it amazes me that people even would like to visit them. About 75% on a pageI have no interest in seeing on most sites and I am not even talking about adds, but useless headers and left and right columns and footers and things in between.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    7. Re:Compression? by mollymoo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Persistent HTTP connections were tacked on to HTTP 1.0 years ago and are widely supported, but you still have the "can I have that bit now please?" overhead with the associated latency between retrieving each file on each connection. 100ms of latency multiplied by a dozen assets soon adds up. HTTP 1.1's pipelining means you can ask for many things at once so only suffer that hit once (or twice - page then assets), but in practice browser support for pipelining is poor.

      --
      Chernobyl 'not a wildlife haven' - BBC News
    8. Re:Compression? by fermion · · Score: 1
      You know for this and other reasons size is not such a big deal. Text compression is extremely efficient and is one reason why we are seeing less binary. Furthermore most people have speeds that make anything around a megabyte load in a second. It is only the most inept web designers that have pages that don't load.

      And in my experience that ineptitude does not have to do with page size. It has to do with the number of requests per page. And not allowing a page to load if google analytics or some other ad service is not loading. I hate to tell you, but google is not perfect. More than once i have seen a call to google analytics stall a page. The content on the page was ready to render, but the web bug could not be loaded. So if we are talking about speeds, we are talking about the ads and the way the page handles ads.

      --
      "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    9. Re:Compression? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1.1. There is no 2.0.

    10. Re:Compression? by swillden · · Score: 1

      What helps even more from a user's perspective is combining files; basically, in the backend we combine all our Javascript and CSS (or as much as is reasonable) into one file instead of serving it as multiple, separate files linked to the current page.

      That only helps users with broadband. It does almost nothing for users who are on slow Internet connections.

      Yes, you're reducing latency by eliminating some round trip times, but for users with slow Internet connections, that's irrelevant. Their page load time is dominated by the time it takes to actually load the content. For someone like my father-in-law who is on a 26 Kbps dialup, that means that 1 MB of page content is going to take ~3 minutes to download -- or twice that if compression isn't configured.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    11. Re:Compression? by TheSpoom · · Score: 1

      Sorry, but we're not going to work around cases like your father-in-law's because they're so rare. As another poster said:

      Extreme Edge Case, WONTFIX

      --
      It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
      - E. Debs
    12. Re:Compression? by swillden · · Score: 1

      Sorry, but we're not going to work around cases like your father-in-law's because they're so rare. As another poster said:

      Extreme Edge Case, WONTFIX

      I don't think they're really that rare. In some parts of the country they're really common, because there just isn't any option other than dialup available. Perhaps they're rare among the demographics of your users. Or maybe they're not all that rare there, either. Do you actually monitor user download rates?

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    13. Re:Compression? by TheSpoom · · Score: 1

      In our case it doesn't matter. The product requires Javascript, and I do mean requires. We still do our best to lower latency and bandwidth use.

      --
      It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
      - E. Debs
  17. Larger Pages by Master+Moose · · Score: 5, Insightful

    And Less Content. .

    I remeber the days when a site would include an 10 paragraph article on one page - Not 10 pages with a paragraph on each.

    --
    . . .gone when the morning comes
    1. Re:Larger Pages by greenhollow · · Score: 2, Interesting

      On most sites that I go to that have a paragraph per page model, I just click the "Print" button/link on the site and they combine the pages for printing. Then I read it without needing to print it. Sometimes they require printing it. If they do, I am less likely to read the article at all.

    2. Re:Larger Pages by PenquinCoder · · Score: 1

      I hate websites (And particularly tutorial or news sites) that have that content delivery style. I want to be reading the WHOLE story, not clicking a link every paragraph to read more of it.

    3. Re:Larger Pages by Master+Moose · · Score: 1

      And not that I always RTFA, it seems these are a favourite for Slashdot to link to.

      --
      . . .gone when the morning comes
    4. Re:Larger Pages by PerfectionLost · · Score: 0

      Funny, but true.

    5. Re:Larger Pages by TheSpoom · · Score: 1

      If you consider ads the content the site wants to deliver, it makes more sense.

      --
      It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
      - E. Debs
    6. Re:Larger Pages by FreakyGreenLeaky · · Score: 1

      That's typically to maximise ad exposure to fund the website.

      It's a brave new world out there, ads an' all.

  18. Yeah, because by warrax_666 · · Score: 1

    ... reimplementing jQuery (which is 31K, btw) badly in uncacheable custom ways without being able to draw on the years of expertise of the developers of jQuery would be a great alternative.

    --
    HAND.
  19. Flawed methods ... by oneiros27 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This only matters if people go to the first page, and never go to any additional ones.

    For most websites these days, you'll take the initial hit from javascript and the 'branding' images when you first get to the site ... but the changing content per page is much lower.

    If websites are using standard javascript libraries being served by Google's CDN, then it's possible that someone visiting your page already has jquery, mootools or similar cached and doesn't need to load yet another copy.

    I also didn't see if they had any comparison between transferred size vs. used size. (eg, javascript that's sent compressed) ... and as this is from an new archive ... does anyone know if Archive.org could analyze their holdings to see what the longer term trends are?

    --
    Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
    1. Re:Flawed methods ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      This only matters if people go to the first page, and never go to any additional ones.

      There are plenty of times I've hit the back button when an initial page doesn't load quickly. So it matters more than a lot would like to admit. With billions of pages to chose from why wait for one that takes longer than a second or two to load.

      BTW one site I've written is 831 kb. That's the entire site. Multiple pages with logos, AJAX, CSS and everything but the actual database it connects to. Everyone one who uses it comments how fast and responsive it is.

  20. I remember when downloading even 1MB would take by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I remember when downloading even 1MB would take over 24 hours when using a 300 baud modem on a Commodore 64 back in 1982.

    1. Re:I remember when downloading even 1MB would take by colinrichardday · · Score: 1

      Did you disable call waiting? I was interrupted during a session by an incoming call (1984).

    2. Re:I remember when downloading even 1MB would take by Maritz · · Score: 1

      Wow thought my 2400 baud was seriously 'back in the day'...

      --
      I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
  21. Virgin Mobile by ArchieBunker · · Score: 1

    If they have cell reception then how about http://www.virginmobileusa.com/mobile-broadband/

    --
    Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
    1. Re:Virgin Mobile by MetricT · · Score: 1

      They don't have any cell reception, barring standing in the right spot in the yard. They live at the bottom of a large valley that blocks cell signals.

      One thing I have thought about is buying two antennas and building a passive reflector to beam some signal into their valley, but I'm waiting for Verizon (or anyone, for that matter) to roll out 4G before I spend money on it.

    2. Re:Virgin Mobile by Pope · · Score: 1

      Extreme edge case: WONTFIX

      --
      It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
    3. Re:Virgin Mobile by C-Shalom · · Score: 2

      If you have line of sight, you might consider reading 'Diary of a Not-spot' posted on The Register.
      Hopefully some of what he's tried and gone through could be of help to you.

      Diary of a Not-spot: One man's heroic struggle for broadband
      Diary of a Not-spot: The readers speak
      Diary of a Not-spot – the final chapter
      Diary of a not-spot: Breaking the BT barrier

    4. Re:Virgin Mobile by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Have you looked into Satellite internet services? There's two kinds: Downstream only (dialup for upsteam), and both up/down. The equipment is expensive, but it's close to DSL / Cable prices.

  22. Now I can feel smug by rbrander · · Score: 4, Insightful

    My home page remains where it has been since 1993 at the Calgary Unix Users Group: http://www.cuug.ab.ca/branderr ...clocks in at 9.2K, plus a 15K GIF and a 9.1K JPG (if you "turn on images" in your browser - remember when it was a realistic option not to?)

    I have held the line, while Viewing With Alarm (VWA) the growth of web pages for the entire 18 years since. I wrote Bob Metcalfe when he had a column at InfoWorld 15 years back, and he was Viewing With Alarm the exponential growth in Internet traffic and predicting the "collapse of the Internet" (had to eat those words - literally) because of it. My letter pointed out that his column constituted 2K of text - that was all the generated content that was bringing in the readers, (unless you count the 10K gif of Bob Metcalfe, and I don't), and the page had an additional 100K of framing and advertising-related image GIFs. His reply was somewhat defensive.

    This last year, I had occasion to travel on the Queen Mary 2, where all internet is via satellite at a minimum of 34 cents per minute with their bulk plan. How quickly I grew to resent the giant Flash blobs that would be automatically downloaded with every page of a newspaper so I wouldn't miss the animated ads for the latest in car buys. At QM2 speeds, I'd have to wait about two minutes before I even had an "X" mark to click on to dismiss the ad. I was rather quickly cured of almost any interest in the Internet content at ALL, I did my E-mail, checked the google news headlines (fewest high-byte ads), and logged off.

    My point: 90% of mail is spam. So are 90% of web page bytes. We just don't call it spam. We call it "the whole outside frame around the news page that we try not to see, but keeps jumping around into our field of view".

    1. Re:Now I can feel smug by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      My home page remains where it has been since 1993 at the Calgary Unix Users Group: http://www.cuug.ab.ca/branderr ...clocks in at 9.2K, plus a 15K GIF and a 9.1K JPG (if you "turn on images" in your browser - remember when it was a realistic option not to?)

      Suddenly, I remember. I remember the atrocious color schemes of the 90s again, I remember "best viewed with Internet Explorer" (the code word for "only viewable with Internet Explorer"), I remember the JPGs that took ages to load.

      Thank you for making me remember by providing a site that embodies all that: that uncompressed goodness, "Cache-control: no-cache" (I'm sure it'll change any second now!), those 1.55s it took to load that page clocking in at 33KB... Yeah, I remember.

      Totally unrelated: searching google for "www.cuug.ab.ca/branderr" had 224KB, but fired onload after 1.23 seconds.

      Viewing With Alarm (VWA) the growth of web pages for the entire 18 years since.

      Maybe you should do less Viewing and more Trying To Improve (... with alarm)?

    2. Re:Now I can feel smug by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For 10k you could have a far better design/layout. Ya know, there's a difference between nice, simple, clean design, and shit. Both are 10k, but one is hideous. Your site is the latter.

    3. Re:Now I can feel smug by whisper_jeff · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Sorry to be a dick but you're bragging about that page? Really? You know when they say "size doesn't matter"? Yeah - sometimes it also means being as small as possible is not necessarily a good thing. I would have thought that page was trash ten years ago when Geocities webpages were everywhere so, now, it's really not good... Seriously, stop bragging about it and spend some time designing a real page.

      Sorry to be a dick - someone had to tell you...

    4. Re:Now I can feel smug by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      Heh! 3 kB (21 kB uncompressed) 67 kB (213 kB uncompressed)

      Of course, none of those pages have much content... But they are the top pages of the domains. (By the way, both are safe for work. There realy isn't much in them.)

    5. Re:Now I can feel smug by rbrander · · Score: 1

      This is priceless. I nearly never went back to the article at all, and then when checking my profile, notice it's cranked up to 5, come here and there's this huge offtopic thread: free advice on my web design!

      Yes, it's a 1993 home page (I thought that was my point?). No, I haven't put 30 minutes into revising it in design terms the whole time (save adding the new picture when friends started asking if it was a "younger relative"). And here's the whole deal on that:
      I HAVE NOTHING TO SELL.

      Granted, that top part is based on your average 90's resume', and that's "selling yourself", but I'd been to my last job interview by then, save internal ones. The rest is literally an html list of links, all I use a home page for. It doesn't have to "present" in any way, doesn't have to sell, catch the eye, reach out. It just has to sit there and be readable and searchable. Entirely passive information.

      Which brings me to the light-on-dark colour scheme. I do a lot of reading in dark rooms (here in Calgary, it's dark at 4:45 today) and black-on-white text is like reading while staring at the reading light. (I blame this on the original Mac trying to pretend the screen was paper; I still disagree.) I treasure the trick on my Linux Mint that reverses the colours on a window, letting me flip to white on black. (Just found out Windows can do this: Left-Alt, Left-Shift, PrtSc) My only terminal-emulator colours are green (or yellow) on black. The kindle app is never set any other way. Since I don't care if I get only my own hits or millions, I might as well not squint at my own home page.

      Now back to our topic, which I believe was web page brevity and use of Flash blobs when HTML/JPG would probably do. If my web page pains you, don't read it.

  23. Cache? by Rinisari · · Score: 1

    How much is cached? Yeah, initial page load sucks terribly, but how much has to be loaded on subsequent page requests?

    How many copies of jQuery and etc. do people have cached on their machines?

    It almost feels like we need dependency managers for browsers! I mean, I know there is the Google hosted stuff and other projects urge you to use their hosted version and fallback on a local copy.

  24. No, it's not HTML5. It's just junk. by Animats · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There is absolutely no doubt that these trends are attributable to the death throes of Flash and emergence of HTML5 and its open web cohorts.

    No, it's not about HTML 5. A lot of it is about bloated content management systems and templates.

    I was looking at a Wall Street Journal page recently, and I brought it into an HTML editor so I could eliminate all non-story content. The story required an HTML page with only 72 lines. The original page was over 4000 lines. It contained a vast amount of hidden content, including the entire registration system for buying a subscription. All that junk appears on every page.. Inline, not in an included file.

    On top of that, there are content management systems which create a custom CSS page for each content page. So there's no useful caching in the browser.

    Remember those people who said CSS was going to make web pages shorter? They were wrong. Look at Slashdot - bloated, slow pages that don't do much, yet consume CPU time when idle.

    1. Re:No, it's not HTML5. It's just junk. by Desler · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But Slashdot is now web 2.0, Ajax-enabled and social. Pretty soon it'll be "hosted on the cloud" and provide SaaS so it can win at buzzword bingo!

    2. Re:No, it's not HTML5. It's just junk. by rubycodez · · Score: 3, Insightful

      let's just use 1 acronym for all that, BWC. Bloated Web Crapware

    3. Re:No, it's not HTML5. It's just junk. by mjwalshe · · Score: 1

      I would mod you up but i have commented all ready - its a major problem seems worse in old school publishers unfortunately. Lucky the one I work for has finally seen the light lets how that I see some changes next year.

    4. Re:No, it's not HTML5. It's just junk. by archen · · Score: 2

      I agree that the reason things are getting bigger is because of extra "crap" getting served. Comercial pages are the biggest chunk of it, but even stuff like wordpress can toss out a lot of junk with templates. With bigger screen resolutions and assumed high speed internet, I'm seeing many sites being much more sloppy with large graphics too. The slashdot question at the end makes it sound like personal pages are relavent to this statistic. What percentage of the population actually has a personal homepage these days? 0.2% ? Facebook and blogging covers 99% of what most people need.

      I've had a page since 1997 and the average page size hasn't changed a whole lot. With the transition from table layouts to css the file sizes went down for a while, then my css got more complicated and it's about the same. A big page adds up to maybe as much as 15-20k. Anyone actually try writing 20k worth of text, grammer check it, proof read and edit it multiple times? That's a LOT of work for a file that is that small. I've got over 765 pages, with about 28Mb of stuff all together. I have no idea how much css is involved but my javascript adds up to something like 2k total (not including the google spy stuff).

    5. Re:No, it's not HTML5. It's just junk. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      CSS clearly helps pages to take up less space. Adding all the crap advert divs, animations, videos that play on view is what's screwing things up and other poo is the contributing factor. Do you really want to go back to every tag having to be individually styled rather that a simple class="whatever"?

      Don't blame the tools if people are too stupid to use them.

    6. Re:No, it's not HTML5. It's just junk. by Trixter · · Score: 1

      It contained a vast amount of hidden content, including the entire registration system for buying a subscription. All that junk appears on every page.. Inline, not in an included file.

      Which reminds me: What's so bad about frames again? Is it so incredibly wacky to have static border/background/scripts downloaded only once per visit?

    7. Re:No, it's not HTML5. It's just junk. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This guy is correct.

      Who the fuck even uses HTML5? It's really not that bloated but people can't even agree their ass on standards, browser compliance is not full and I really don't trust some of the possible security holes.

      These are corporate page metrics (like the WSJ post above), all sorts of crazy-ass bloat in there. Thank god for NoScript.

    8. Re:No, it's not HTML5. It's just junk. by mjwx · · Score: 2

      No, it's not about HTML 5. A lot of it is about bloated content management systems and templates.

      What do you think HTML5 is all about.

      An all new way to deliver bloated CMS's. Why do some people think HTML5 is some kind of magic fix for all the ills of the web?

      The problem is bad design and lack of care. No one gets punished for creating a crap system, bad developers get coddled, customers are coerced, sweet talked and sometimes forced into accepting bad CMS's.

      HTML5 will not stop bloat, will not stop bad, bandwidth consuming ads, it wont stop anything we dont like. In fact everything we dont like (even about flash) can and likely will be transmitted by HTML5 because like Flash, HTML5 is a delivery system, not content (yes I know this was the parents point).

      Another problem is as bandwidth increases, developers put less and less time into optimisation. They dont take into account customers using mobile broad band who a lot of the time get 500-ish KB that still exist.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    9. Re:No, it's not HTML5. It's just junk. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which reminds me: What's so bad about frames again?

      Bookmarks don't work. You load the bookmark, all frames reset to their default pages.
      Navigation doesn't work. Pressing the back button sends the whole thing back, not the page in one of the frames.
      Search Engines can't index the page. Google won't see the contents of frames as part of one page, it will only the see the frame page itself so when you search you will end up on the child page instead of the frame page (try navigating when the link bar is another frame on the frame page which you did not land on). Also, even if Google did follow frames then see the point about bookmarks; Google basically generates bookmarks so you land on the home frame page with all frames in their default state, not the way you searched for.
      Printing doesn't work. It's impossible to print a frame page properly since frames are inherently a screen UI element, they have no decent 'on paper' translation (printers can't make pop-out books).

  25. Coded mine in notepad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    CSS is for prima donnas and Flash is for artistes. PHP is for chatterboxes and Perl is for psychics. Javascript is for the clinically insane, and Ruby is for hipsters. Drupal is for geeks and Ajax is for nerds.

    I'll stick to plain-jane HTML, thanks.

    1. Re:Coded mine in notepad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      CSS is for prima donnas and Flash is for artistes. PHP is for chatterboxes and Perl is for psychics. Javascript is for the clinically insane, and Ruby is for hipsters. Drupal is for geeks and Ajax is for nerds.

      I'll stick to plain-jane HTML, thanks.

      "...and plain-jane HTML is for bigger hipsters than Ruby users". Understood. Thanks.

    2. Re:Coded mine in notepad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You should really just send plaintext email. Or since email is for the obnoxious cognoscenti, just TTY your content to people directly.

    3. Re:Coded mine in notepad by JobyOne · · Score: 1

      CSS is for prima donnas or...Gmail. Javascript is for the clinically insane...or Gmail. Drupal is for geeks or...the White House. Ajax is for nerds or...Gmail.

      And plain-jane HTML is for codgers and couch developers lucky enough to live a la-la land far simpler than the one inhabited by those of us who do this kind of stuff professionally.

      My point is that it's silly and counterproductive to vilify particular toolsets whenever doofuses use them poorly. If we all turned off Javascript tomorrow the crappy web developers of the world would just find some other way to fuck with us.

      --
      Porquoi?
    4. Re:Coded mine in notepad by wmbetts · · Score: 1

      CSS is for prima donnas and Flash is for artistes. PHP is for chatterboxes and Perl is for psychics. Javascript is for the clinically insane, and Ruby is for hipsters. Drupal is for geeks and Ajax is for nerds.

      I'll stick to plain-jane HTML, thanks.

      Then you're an idiot still misusing html tables.

      --
      "Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me". - stolen from Dan C alt.os.linux.slackware
  26. Non sequitur by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There is absolutely no doubt that these trends are attributable to the death throes of Flash and emergence of HTML5 and its open web cohorts.

  27. 90KB of Flash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    That's still too much flash for me

    Sent from my iPhone

    1. Re:90KB of Flash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Waaaah

      Sent from pretty much any Android

  28. slashdot = overweight by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Ironically posted on a website that is itself a bloated pig.

  29. Video sucks. by PeanutButterBreath · · Score: 4, Insightful

    10 years ago online video was virtually nonexistent, and where it did exist it was never larger than 320x240.

    And now it is ubiquitous, HD and largely devoted to pointless things that would be skimmed over and disregarded in a fraction of the load time if left to text and still images.

    1. Re:Video sucks. by Tumbleweed · · Score: 4, Insightful

      TubeCat disagrees with everything about what you just said.

    2. Re:Video sucks. by Laxori666 · · Score: 1

      AUBHGAUBHGUHHUAGUBUAGHubauhabuhbuhgbgubabbuhbaubabuhbauhba

    3. Re:Video sucks. by dzfoo · · Score: 1

      OMG!! My brain is about to explode with a cuteness overload!!

      --
      Carol vs. Ghost
      ...Can you save Christmas?
  30. Home page size by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 1

    My personal site's home page? Fairly large, 18k of which 11k is images. I mean, it's a home page not an image gallery or something like that where you expect a lot of large content.

    I've seen some of those sites with large pages, and mostly I hate visiting them. The loading makes them feel like I'm wading through molasses, and the amount of stuff they're loading and the complexity of the scripts means more and more glitches and things that break when the network isn't perfect or they didn't expect the exact combination of things I've got at the moment. The pages come across as not being able to stay out of their own way, and more and more often they actually get in the way of my seeing what I came to the page for. There's merchants I've actually walked away from even though they had the product I wanted and had the best price on it simply because I couldn't get their pages to work well enough to get to the product page let alone order it. And I'm a techie who knows how to tweak the browser to make pages work when they don't want to, I shudder to think what it's like for someone who isn't a techie and is afraid to touch the security settings.

  31. 1.3mb or 1,000 lines of python by lkcl · · Score: 2

    my site's a pyjamas application. it is therefore 1,000 lines of python.... or, when compiled (and therefore including the pyjs runtime which does stuff like dict, list, exceptions etc. all emulated in javascript, as well as including the library of widgets that are used on the page) it's 1.3mb of really obtuse but functionally correct javascript.

  32. My Personal Home Page? by nick357 · · Score: 2

    It remains the size of one of those animated "under construction" gifs.

  33. Automatic shutdown at 95C by mikael · · Score: 2

    I've been able to run both CPU and GPU based CFD and 3D visualisation on my laptop without any problems, yet some flash games which are just doing 2D animation will roast a 2.7 GHz CPU to the point that the kernel decides to call it a day and shut down the whole system.

    Unbelievably, these flash games aren't doing anything more complex than playing a retro 2D platform game. I'm guessing that this is due to the way in which all the separate texturemaps/pixelmaps are treated as generic webpage images rather than as a single DOOM style WAD file.

    --
    Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    1. Re:Automatic shutdown at 95C by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you trying to help this page on its way to the 1 MB milestone?

    2. Re:Automatic shutdown at 95C by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In 5 more years there will be another layer of abstraction and 5GHz CPU's will be dragged to a crawl by a Super Mario Brothers clone.

    3. Re:Automatic shutdown at 95C by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      It's caused by inept code that just runs at maximum frame rate regardless of display. Those 2d animations are probably being generated at several thousand FPS, just because the programmer didn't know how to limit it to something more reasonable.

    4. Re:Automatic shutdown at 95C by amaupin · · Score: 1

      No doubt you ran into a game using the Flixel library for AS3. 99% of the time I see the Flixel logo pop up before a game I know my laptop fan is going to turn on and the game is going to run choppy. I don't know what that library does behind the scenes, but it's an amazing CPU hog. ...And yet in my own games when I implement the built-in AS3 BitmapData.copyPixels() routines to move around massive amounts of sprites, my CPU doesn't even break a sweat.

    5. Re:Automatic shutdown at 95C by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's actually not how Flash works at all, but thanks for playing. :)

    6. Re:Automatic shutdown at 95C by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've been able to run both CPU and GPU based CFD and 3D visualisation on my laptop without any problems, yet some flash games which are just doing 2D animation will roast a 2.7 GHz CPU to the point that the kernel decides to call it a day and shut down the whole system.

      Um, the thermal shutdown is not supposed to happen... EVER. You have a hardware problem, bad heat sink/thermal paste, crappy ventilation on the case, dust build-up or an overclock.

      (BTW, the thermal shutdown is not "the kernel", it's the CPU itself, the internal wired logic detects the overtemp and triggers its own power-off sequence)

    7. Re:Automatic shutdown at 95C by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I highly suspect Flash does lots of *polling* internally.

  34. Am I the only one reminded of.... by LiquidMind · · Score: 4, Interesting

    http://www.the5k.org/

    It seemed so long ago. Didn't /. have an entry as well?

    --
    This sig contains repetition and redundancy.
  35. 145.3K by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's not completely done yet, but I doubt it will go over 200K when it is done.

  36. Going out on a limb here... by idbeholda · · Score: 1

    But I would venture to guess that the average person also uses wysiwig editors and/or templates, which tend to be horribly bloated from the getgo. Most templates I've experimented with can be easily reduced up to 60% of their original size while delivering the exact same look, feel and functionality, and a significant amount of the HTML code that's spawned from the aforementioned methods is entirely unnecessary.

    1. Re:Going out on a limb here... by KingAlanI · · Score: 1

      I learned quickly about how bloated automatic HTML generators are.
      I handwrite the HTML now, but there are a few pages on the site that were wysiwiyg'ed - the whole site could sorely use an update, really.

      Size also benefits from not using scripting or using it minimally.

      --
      I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
  37. My homepage is 66.7k by DarkSage · · Score: 1

    Wonder if i can cut 1k somewhere to make it 66.6k just for fun.

    Its a personal site, with just a picture of me, and lots of text. Runs Drupal 7 theme based on Stark.

  38. 1 MB - Noscript+adblock - 15 KB by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's only huge if you load all the huge stuff you don't need to be loading.

  39. ASP __VIEWSTATE by Skinkie · · Score: 1

    The abuse of __VIEWSTATE in certain pages makes the actual viewstate bigger that the site itself, per click, growing and growing. Which basically must count for something. I have always wondered how Microsoft hould have thought this out, or maybe the lack of education of its "developers".

    --
    Support Eachother, Copy Dutch Property!
  40. Above average! by MeTaLNETwEeK! · · Score: 1

    Mine's above average - nearly 11 inches!

  41. Three examples... by unts · · Score: 1

    My personal web site's home page is 2KB. It's HTML5, no CSS, no JS. My research group site has a bit of all three plus a handful of images and comes in at 125KB. Big website I sysadmin weighs in at 1.1MB. A nice variety there. I think my personal site claims the crown as the fastest loading and quickest to render.

  42. 492KB/42KB by gpmidi · · Score: 1

    My main site is 492KB for the front page and all of it's content, including images. Any loads other than the first are around 42KB due to browser based caching.

    1. Re:492KB/42KB by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      wow, the CMS I'm re-writing is 1MB and contains tickets, workorder, circuit tracking, ip allocation, and a bunch of other stuff. Mind you, this is without the data that's stored in the db so it can get larger pretty quick ...

  43. Memory issues. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Bigger web pages and heavier use of scripts are partly to blame for memory leaks that web browsers suffer. Back in 2001 when IE6 was still new it could happily run with just 64MB RAM. Now netbooks struggle with 16 times that much RAM. In the future we will be complaining that Firefox 258 will be using 2PB of ram for just five tabs.

  44. Too much Javascript for non-interactive content by rollingcalf · · Score: 3, Informative

    Some sites use Javascript to display what is semi-static data that should be assembled on the server side before transmitting to the user. For example, a news site where the stories are loaded by Javascript.

    Some sites even have pages that are entirely blank if Javascript is turned off. It seems that some of these "web programmers" don't even know how to dynamically build a page with server-side scripting instead of Javascript.

    --
    ---------
    There is inferior bacteria on the interior of your posterior.
    1. Re:Too much Javascript for non-interactive content by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That entirely depends on the data. DB access is very costly in performance terms, if your data is trivial enough to generate some figures in the browser, it's better to offload that to the client side and not spend a massive amount of huge DB servers.

    2. Re:Too much Javascript for non-interactive content by Splab · · Score: 0

      It's not because we don't know how to render serverside.

      For years upon years crappy PHP programmers have been killing servers with bloated badly coded dynamically "rendered" pages.

      These days you can have people doing what they do best; front end doing JS/design, backend doing data processing. Yes, some pages will be blank without JS enabled - but to be honest, we don't care. Having to maintain a seperate code tree for the nutjobs who doesn't like JS is simply too much of a hassle.

    3. Re:Too much Javascript for non-interactive content by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or maybe they know exactly what they are doing and are offloading some of the processing on you to save money on infrastructure.

    4. Re:Too much Javascript for non-interactive content by catbutt · · Score: 2

      Actually that's a really smart thing to do from a bandwidth point of view. There are all kinds of reasons not to do that (some of those are gradually disappearing, since now Google's crawler is starting to run some javascript to build the page as the user will see it), but if you are concerned about bandwidth, having javascript build your page for you is a very good way to do it.

    5. Re:Too much Javascript for non-interactive content by Mia'cova · · Score: 1

      You'll need the same amount of data from your SQL server regardless of if the markup is generated by PHP/whatever on the server or by javascript on the client. This particular choice should have no impact on DB perf. Note that even for an ajax application, you can most certainly 'pre-fetch' the data for the initial page and send that down to the client. An ajax-style page does not have to make an actual http request to get that first bit of data. Either way, the main html page should have the same data regardless of if the markup is generated on the server or client.

    6. Re:Too much Javascript for non-interactive content by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if you are concerned about bandwidth, having javascript build your page for you is a very good way to do it.

      Sending a compressed page with an expires header is a smart thing to do. Assembling a page using javascript when the developer has no idea if the UA supports it or has it enabled is stupid. When I see such sites and it doesn't matter if it's google or apple, I think "oh look another incompetent developer".

    7. Re:Too much Javascript for non-interactive content by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Damn, I wish I had some mod points.

      I'm working on a web framework right now that is specifically designed to take advantage of this fact. Just about all HTML is static (or near so; generated by PHP on-demand and then cached server side so Apache [Lighttpd?] handles the request without ever touching the PHP interpreter). I'm using little micro-html templates that the JS can download (for example, "this is the HTML for a button") and cache on the client. Then dynamic content is loaded in as JSON structures via Ajax. The entire thing is designed to be spread across several Amazon EC2 instances and multiple host names will be utilized to convince browsers to download JS, etc. in parallel.

      It's in what I might call "R&D" phase right now, but I'm hoping for great things. One of the only concerns I had for this was it was extremely SEO-unfriendly, but I decided that was less important to me since it's primarily targeting applications like GMail where SEO isn't as important. To know Google will soon mitigate that drawback makes me quite happy I decided to buck common "wisdom".

    8. Re:Too much Javascript for non-interactive content by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For example, a news site where the stories are loaded by Javascript.
      Some sites even have pages that are entirely blank if Javascript is turned off.

      EVERY professional (as in paid in cold hard cash by company making money off of that site) will do these 2 things, only beginners that do not know how to make content loaded by JavaScript will give you static page, because if you get static page you can use something like that noScript thing or AdBlock and skip Ad's, same Ad's that pay for professional developer, nothing personal, i spend a lot of time on my SECOND priority - usability, but even more time on my FIRST priority making sure you see Ad's that pay for content you want and for my salary (actually i guess it is personal after all, money/salary is very personal thing for some people)

      my point: they are probably more than able to make whole page static, simpler, and most likely without any JavaScript, maybe even few times smaller, but that was NOT their goal

    9. Re:Too much Javascript for non-interactive content by Nursie · · Score: 1

      "Having to maintain a seperate code tree for the nutjobs who doesn't like JS is simply too much of a hassle."

      Heh, a lot of pages work just fine without the scripts. They may not look as pretty, but it seems that (just like a decade ago) javascript is mostly used to prettify things, to load ads and to track users. I can live without those things much of the time, and am rewarded with much faster page loads.

    10. Re:Too much Javascript for non-interactive content by Mitreya · · Score: 1
      Some sites even have pages that are entirely blank if Javascript is turned off.

      I could tolerate that if it stopped at that. So many sites have a blank (nearly-blank) webpage after I allow javascript from this domain. It should at least be easy to guess which 2-3 sites from the list of 10 java-script desiring websites actually need to run java script for the original site to load!

    11. Re:Too much Javascript for non-interactive content by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      They know perfectly well that their site won't run without Javascript. They also know how to make it run.

      What they don't know is how to make the advertizers spy on you if you don't turn Javascript on, so no spying = no site for you.

  45. Personal Page Size by pcarter7 · · Score: 1

    Well I just checked, and my homepage is still 123 bytes. Is this like the reverse of overcompensating?

    1. Re:Personal Page Size by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ya got me beat, mine's 770 bytes for my business page, and 430 bytes for my personal.

  46. Page Size by fotbr · · Score: 0

    Home page of my personal web space is well under 1k. "This space intentionally left blank."

    1. Re:Page Size by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Someone with a grudge has mod points, calling that "Overrated" when it was never modded up in the first place.

  47. "There is absolutely no doubt..." by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    "There is absolutely no doubt that these trends are attributable to the death throes of Flash and emergence of HTML5 and its open web cohorts."

    To quote the internet: "lolwut?"

    You think it might be (more realistically) that many more people are using javascript libraries like jquery (~90kb) which increase their overall pagesize bloat? Simply put, a flash menu is a flash menu, and it's about the same size whether you've got a lot of fancy stuff flying around or you're going with the most plain menu possible. If you're having to include a stack of javascript animation libraries and plugins to keep your site "open" (whatever that means) then things get bulky in a hurry.

    To attribute a huge increase in raw javascript size as a good thing is blindingly stupid. If anything it's a bad thing because people aren't using the right tools for the job, and trying to force something that's half implemented and not fully defined into a place that is already occupied by the much leaner, faster and more mature flash. I call BS on any smug "open" enthusiast who crows about the downfall of flash until somebody shows me that they can build a feature for feature clone of something like farmville (chosen because it's so widely used) with less time, expense and developer expertise than flash and equivalent cross platform performance.

    Use the tool that's right for the job. To assume when you wield a hammer that everything is a nail is retarded.

  48. 10,508 bytes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    and one 27864 byte image. Google also understands the importance of this.

  49. 5MBs by keith_nt4 · · Score: 2

    Damned FrontPage

    --
    "UNIX is very simple, it just needs a genius to understand its simplicity." -Dennis Ritchie
  50. Your point being...? by warrax_666 · · Score: 1

    jQuery + jQuery UI (minified) is a lot smaller than the custom shit you're probably thinking about implementing.

    (Yes, in an ideal world all the stuff that makes jQuery/jQuery-UI/whatever an attractive proposition would be folded into a standard, but so far it ain't happenin')

    --
    HAND.
  51. Maybe that's a silly question to ask but... by eminencja · · Score: 1

    ... I have not upgraded my home page since 1999. Will its size have stayed the same?

  52. The Size by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    of the code doesn't matter....it's how you use it!

  53. pretty small... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    2753 bytes

  54. Well, mine is... by AliasMarlowe · · Score: 1, Informative

    The "home" page at our home web server is 9.5kB, including some Javascript, but it will load about 80kB of Logos from various FOSS sites (Gimp, Scribus, Inkscape, SciLab, etc.). Most of the index pages in different areas are also rather less than 10kB in size, but some of them link to pages containing albums of photos and videos. The entire site contains 15.6 GB of files which can be served up, mostly in these albums.

    --
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
  55. ... and it also sucks. by warrax_666 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    From a usability perspective:

    • Blue background. Why? Are you trying to accomplish some artistic purpose we're not privy to?
    • Why are the pictures laid out vertically rather than horizontally? Why is there lots of text to the right of the second picture rather than to the right of both pictures. That means that your contact info is obscured/invisible to potential readers -- it's also out of context in that place.
    • Why do your anchors span multiple sentences rather than just a few semantically relevant key words?

    In short: You fail web page design, so who the fuck cares if your page is 10K?

    --
    HAND.
    1. Re:... and it also sucks. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really, text running alongside an image like that ought to have some relevance to the image. It doesn't here, it just kind of looks like the site is broken.

      The web contributions section is a big, poorly separated block, made even worse by its huge anchors. Could use some headings to break it up.

      And I'll bet the bots will pick that email address up regardless, obscuring it is just annoying. I have mine in clear text on my personal site, and it's only attracted a single, low-volume spammer. My Gmail address on the other hand gets hundreds every day; I'm assuming because it's on higher-traffic sites and because some spammers just seem to guess email addresses (it's a common name followed by an initial, not hard).

    2. Re:... and it also sucks. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You clearly don't remember 1993.

    3. Re:... and it also sucks. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It renders quite nicely on my mobile phone (posting from this now). Much better, in fact, than many 'better designed' websites.

    4. Re:... and it also sucks. by martin-boundary · · Score: 1
      Heh. It's state of the art 1993 design.

      'Ere, we din't have stannard "web palette" colors in them days, and we din't need 'em. Layout was somethin' whispered about while walkin' ten miles uphill to the server room. Both ways. Inna snow! An' we liked it! You kids 'ave got it easy these days! You're just havin' a laugh! Now get off my imeccibly pedicured biospheric plantation!

    5. Re:... and it also sucks. by mickwd · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "In short: You fail web page design, so who the fuck cares if your page is 10K?"

      As a normal human being possessing the ability to read, I found his site perfectly accessible, and it gave me a decent amount of information about the guy in a quick, concise manner.

      If I was to be snarky here, I would say something like:

      In short: You fail meaningful criticism, and who the fuck cares if his "anchors span multiple sentences rather than just a few semantically relevant key words"?

    6. Re:... and it also sucks. by smilespray · · Score: 1

      Who's more smug; you or the OP?

      This was _1993_. So the guy didn't update his page. There are a few errors. Big deal.

      You make an insulting off-topic comment about usability. Who the fuck cares about your error nitpicking, taste in colours, potential neckbeard or "hardcore" user name?

      Nobody, that's who.

      The OP makes a valid point about lazy web designers and dirtbag coroporations who produce sites that add unwanted heavy monetizing features, drain laptop batteries, turn on loud fans, take forever to load, requiring additional action to actually see the content and in this case turned out to cost a pretty penny to half-load. And then the 300 word scraped article was probably spaced out over 15 pages.

      Quite a lot of today's sites are astonishingly ugly by anybody's taste and fail to valditate any reasonable technical or usability requirements, so get lost.

      How you made it to 4: Insighful is beyond me. I'm sure you can make pretty & tight web sites, but stop polluting by offering "helpful" advice or being mean to people.

      *BEEP*. Your hot Ding Dong is ready.

    7. Re:... and it also sucks. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the gotse image is under 10k... I bet you think that's awesome too?

      Or is there more to it than just the size of the page

    8. Re:... and it also sucks. by Johann+Lau · · Score: 1

      So the guy didn't update his page. There are a few errors. Big deal.

      it is a big deal though when that site is cited as an example, and a reason to be "smug".

      this is the official ranking of how good website is, because I say so:

      worst: websites that give you eye cancer.
      better: websites that don't give you eye cancer, but are bloated.
      now we're talking: websites that don't give you eye cancer and aren't bloated.

      you see, long loading times are criticized because desirable content uhm, takes long to load. when the content is not desirable -- because it induces eye cancer -- loading times are completely irrelevant.

      if you seriously defend green links on dark blue background, please hand in your eyes.. you don't need them, they're pretty much lying to you.

    9. Re:... and it also sucks. by smilespray · · Score: 1

      I work with usability on a professional level and have been doing so since 1995. And no, the page may not live up to today's standards. Maybe you simply weren't around back then?

      I just wanted to give the guy a break — although "smug" was a, shall we say, unfortunate title for a post.

      I simply took objection to the OT manner in which you replied, and also your "because I say so" phrasing, which has a faint taste of arrogance. This was originally a post about web page bloat.

      That said, happy holidays! (Sincerely.)

    10. Re:... and it also sucks. by Johann+Lau · · Score: 1

      but the OP said "I have held the line" -- by making the page ages ago, then never improving on it, huh -- so that's essentially putting it next to modern websites.. as if websites are generally going downhill, while he kept it oldschool and efficient. but it just happens to have next to no content, and zero design (or even userfriendlyness), so it doesn't weigh much.. big deal. I'm sorry, but he was asking for it. it's like saying the chair he nailed to a piece of wood doesn't use any fuel, unlike cars.

      green links on dark blue was something people could get away with, yeah... but that's it. it never was more, and nobody with taste would have done that other than a joke at any moment in time. the page says to me "hi there, I didn't give a shit when I made this page, and I still don't".

      also, saying "it's an old site" simply doesn't apply: http://www.cuug.ab.ca/branderr/hawaii11/ -- made today, and as you said, it doesn't exactly live up to today's standards. I mean sure, kudos for not using wordpress et all, but *no* kudos for not even trying to make it somewhat decent with whatever he used. and it's not like the interwebs isn't full of great examples, or as if learning from them take much more than pressing ctrl+f3. no, I insist, this is an abomination, and I protest.

      merry christmas anyway :)

    11. Re:... and it also sucks. by smilespray · · Score: 1

      I think he just shot himself in the foot by cooking up a thumbnail page with heavy scaled-down images:

      http://www.cuug.ab.ca/branderr/hawaii11/kapalua_11.20/

      Biiiiig no-no.

      And yes, my eyes do water somewhat. Hehe.

  56. I also utmost hate it, and the answer is: Opera by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Opera Nobile, featured on plenty of mobile devices, where pages arrive pre-chewed to fit one's own display limits (and thus saving on precious and often expensive mobile-data bandwith). Times, when webpages' code was counted in less than couple of hundreds kB are now swollen over an almyghty MB, due to all flash bang, larger-image pop-up overlay, and hidden menus awaiting to be rolled out... I can easily see why Opera Mini is so ultra-popular with the majority of regular cell-phone users.

  57. Load-once VS full refresh by phorm · · Score: 2

    Well, stuff like jQuery/Dojo/etc libraries shouldn't be loading every time you view a page.
    The first view, your browser will need to load all the associated CSS, HTML, etc.
    After that, included files should hopefully be cached, and only page content need be loaded.

    Also, with JS libraries and AJAX, one should be able to build pages that load the overall template once, but don't require pulling large HTML files for updates (rather just pull content with AJAX).

    1. Re:Load-once VS full refresh by omfgnosis · · Score: 1

      Also, with JS libraries and AJAX, one should be able to build pages that load the overall template once, but don't require pulling large HTML files for updates (rather just pull content with AJAX).

      It's really not possible to do this correctly, yet, unless you can ignore a significant usage share of browsers. At the very best, you end up with a history mechanism that works entirely correctly for some new browsers but not for older browsers which are still in wide use, and a broken history mechanism on those older browsers that cannot work for users with JS disabled. And if you get that far, your libraries are probably pretty big and that first page load is enormous in contrast with the gains you get for subsequent page loads.

    2. Re:Load-once VS full refresh by phorm · · Score: 1

      gmail/hotmail/many others.
      Slashdot (OK maybe that's a bad example).

      Plenty of sites use AJAX and it works just fine on the majority of machines/browsers.

    3. Re:Load-once VS full refresh by omfgnosis · · Score: 1

      Web mail has the benefit of not (generally) needing to accommodate both history *and* exchanging links. I don't know Hotmail's solution intimately, but Gmail's solution uses the location hash for tracking history/bookmarking and presumably so does Hotmail. This works fine in a JS environment, but you can't pass the links around and expect them to work in non-JS environments, because browsers don't send the hash to the server. In contrast, Flickr has adopted the newer (HTML5) history solution, which allows modification of the location path, but that only works in the newest versions of browsers.

      It won't be a solved problem until the older browsers are out of common use.

  58. Crunch the numbers by colinrichardday · · Score: 1

    From 1995 to 2003, 26.7% annual gowth (take the eighth root of (93/14) and then subtract 1). From 2003 to 2008, 26.4%. From 2008 to 2010, 53.0%. Last year's growth was 37.5%. All percentages rounded to the nearest tenth of a percent.

  59. More data, and less information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What's worse is that the "payload" of text is less and less interesting. Bandwidth isn't the problem. I have more than enough bandwidth for these pages. When they hit the browser, they take forever just to render. There are a handful of web sites I still use, Slashdot among them. Most new sites I just back right up. If your site does that on day 1, it's not worth the bother. I'm not buying a new machine just to look at your crap web site that's probably just a rehash of every Internet meme.

    We're well into the "nobody comes here anymore it's too crowded" and/or "57 million web sites and nothing on" stage.

  60. old-school: two-digit kBytes by yabHuj · · Score: 1

    Call me old-school: 10-20 kBytes for the HTML (depending on contents) plus 2kB for the icon (wich stays the same on all pages).

  61. 13052 bytes by pruss · · Score: 1

    Including 9366 bytes worth of images. It's been pretty steady since 1992 or so (initially hosted over ftp instead of http as my Dept didn't have an http server yet).

  62. Don't forget the regular old JPGs... by JobyOne · · Score: 1

    Riiigght... Javascript increases by about 50Kb, so it's responsible for the other several hundred Kb of increase over the last few years?

    Everyone realizes that gzipped jQuery is only 31Kb, right? I'm sick of people blaming Javascript for bloat. Do you realize how much work it would be to produce several hundred Kb of it? Much less think of reasons to produce that much?

    I've been a web designer for years, and where the increases in page size I've seen actually come from is just plain old images. Monitors are bigger. That means web page designs need to be bigger. That means the images that make them up need to be bigger.

    Think about it: it used to be common practice to design a fixed-width website to render on an 800x600 (or even 640x480) monitor. I remember doing them 450px wide, back in the dark ages. Now I do them at 960px, or wider if the audience is likely to have higher resolution monitors. That means the images that make up the layout need to be a little more than twice as wide, if they're made equally taller that's a little more than 4 times as many pixels, just to do the same old things at the new standard resolution.

    Since bandwidth is less of an issue today (for the vast majority of people, anyway) we also compress our images less, in the name of things not looking like crap. When designing a website (especially a graphics-heavy one) you also need to spend more care on the stuff around the main design, for people with maximized browsers on high-resolution screens. So not only are we making images with 4X the pixels, compressed a little less, we need to add a few more images to the mix to maintain the same level of visual excitement for people using big screens.

    On websites produced by competent people HTML5, CSS, Flash and Javascript have basically fuck-all to do with the recent ballooning of bandwidth. Specific implementations of Javascript that you happen to have a grudge against have less that fuck-all to do with it. It's just a fact of life that bigger screens connected to fatter pipes will wind up with more pixels piped to them. Deal with it.

    That said, my portfolio website is only 300-odd Kb on the homepage, and it's CMS-driven, includes jQuery and is pretty damn heavy on the graphics. I like to think I'm sharper than the average copy-pasting "web designer," though.

    --
    Porquoi?
    1. Re:Don't forget the regular old JPGs... by Mia'cova · · Score: 1

      The point isn't that js is taking over and creating larger downloads. Actually, relative to static HTML, dynamically built pages reduce the overall bandwidth consumption when smartly designed/optimized. The point is that relative to other technologies, js is growing rapidly. In particular, the other major scripting engine, flash, isn't showing growth. Everyone expects the quality (file size) of the images to increase over time. So the fact that images continue to increase in size at a rate proportional to consumer bandwidth isn't particularly interesting.

  63. Pr0n is getting better? by aoeu · · Score: 1

    Just saying . . .

    --
    All your database are belong to U.S.
  64. 13k -- I don't think my entire website is 1mb by tekrat · · Score: 1

    Well maybe if you include all the images and the PDFs. I have a rather extensive website and if I recall, even when I backed up the entire thing, it came out to maybe 76MB, and that included all the image hosting I was doing for a different website.

    The problem is the same problem we're having now with "windows" software. Bloated because it's being generated by machine rather than hand-coded. All these WYSIWYG HTML code generators that allow people to just drag and drop text and pictures and let Dreamweaver do the rest -- or worse -- those crazy websites that just build other websites (i.e blogger).

    The point is: You can get away with a lot less, but nobody cares because bandwidth is fast and cheap and so is processing time. If the NY Times took 10 minutes to load, you'd better believe they would do something to optimize it.

    But that's like asking modern programmers to hand-optimize their code for office applications. It's just not going to happen. MS Word loads and runs fast enough even though the code for that thing is a nightmare. Yet, for the majority of what you use Word for, the free, scaled down desk accessory "Wordpad" is more than enough.

    --
    If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
  65. Growth by Shifty0x88 · · Score: 1

    It's like images back in the day when everyone had dial-up, it took you a minute to download a few KB image file, now with faster internet, it takes the same amount of time, however you are now downloading a few MB image file, because as the bandwidth of the average person increased so did the resolutions and sizes of other things.

    I mean did anyone download a 1080p image back in early 2000s??!? Probably not, but now everyone wants 1080p desktop backgrounds and whatnot. It is simply companies providing a better experience to their web site, as the average person advances in tech so does the web page

  66. Everything is clear now. by cvtan · · Score: 2

    Well, that explains why my 400MHz WINXP laptop with 128M memory has a heart attack trying to scroll down a page of comments on Slashdot.

    --
    Sorry, but gray text on gray background is making my eyes bleed.
  67. Mine 84 KB, this page 1032 KB by nevermore94 · · Score: 1

    The front web page I maintain for a local charity organization is just 84KB according to the Firefox Web Developer plugin which seems fairly accurate. This includes 4 html files (all hand edited), 11 images (all optimized .pngs), 1 js file and 2 style sheets.

    Slashdot's homepage weighs in at 628 KB and this article was (ironically) 1032 KB when I checked.

    --
    Nevermore.
    1. Re:Mine 84 KB, this page 1032 KB by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 1

      For slashdot's home page, I got 1.74 Megabytes (using Safari's "Web inspector"). The New York Times weighs in at 2.59 Megabytes.

    2. Re:Mine 84 KB, this page 1032 KB by nevermore94 · · Score: 1

      Interesting. Perhaps they measure things differently, or perhaps they send different content to different browsers. I was running with Ad Block Plus on so that could account for some of the difference as well.

      --
      Nevermore.
  68. Civilization II sorta does that to me by KingAlanI · · Score: 1

    I have a processor of similar speed(2.93 GHz), and Civilization II sorta does that to me - when civ2.exe is running, Task Manager shows a lot of CPU use and the fan starts running bigtime.

    mine doesn't autoshutdown, so maybe my situation isn't as bad as yours. but I still worry about damaging the equipment, and the sound competes with/adds to the sound of background music

    it does have separate .jpg/.gif/.txt files for the game resources
    perhaps this is happening because Civilization II works through DOS rather than being native Windows

    --
    I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
    1. Re:Civilization II sorta does that to me by mikael · · Score: 1

      My laptop (rather vintage now), has the rather quaint design of having the cooling van intake on the underside of the laptop and the exhaust vent/afterburner on the right hand side, along side the hard disk drive. Having the Gnome Sensors Applet lets me see the temperature rise depending on application design.

      I always thought originally it was due to the use of the GPU, then I tried some GPU applications that only used integer parameters, and that considerably reduced temperature increase. SDL exclusive applications with software rendering (No OpenGL) had no temperature increase, even though they were blitting an entire framebuffer in full-screen mode. Then tried some experimenting with floating-point vs. fixed point on CPU side. Came to the conclusion that it was the use of floating-point combined with poorly memory-mapped data. Sustained deeply intensive floating-point computations would top the CPU out, but the frequency writing of images to file would slow things down enough for the CPU to cool down.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
  69. Developers should care by sakdoctor · · Score: 2

    40-60% of Yahoo!’s users have an empty cache experience and ~20% of all page views are done with an empty cache.

    http://yuiblog.com/blog/2007/01/04/performance-research-part-2/

  70. Gzip by sakdoctor · · Score: 2

    Don't feel too smug. Your page isn't even compressed.

  71. Depends by RazorSharp · · Score: 1

    Turn adblock on, that's how I'd like to see it measured. They say the amount of Flash stayed about the same, but there's a lot of non-Flash, annoyingly obtrusive ads these days that adblock takes care of. Their numbers seem to indicate that an increase in Javascript has been relevant, which could be from sites using AJAX a bit more, but a lot that the extra work is on the server's end so I still think there'd probably be quite a decrease in the average with adblock on.

    I'm also curious as to whether Facebook pages played a role in these statistics, that's all a lot of people look at. People sharing pictures and whatnot.

    --
    "From the depths of my skeptical and rationalist soul, I ask the Lord to protect me from California touchie-feeliedom."
  72. HOW MUCH OF THAT IS ADBANNER CONTENT? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    THEIR SCRIPTS + IMAGES etc. (ALL PARTS OF BANNER ADS ONLINE, IN OTHER WORDS)... I wonder what % THEY represent, especially currently/nowadays!

    APK

    P.S.=> I'd wager that a LOT of it is that size in webpages, especially nowadays... why/how?

    Simple: Mainly because of the speed gains I see loading webpages by using a HOSTS file to block out adbanners...

    (Alongside in-browser tools in addons, or built in blocking like Opera's URLFILTER.INI, FF's native internal list, IE9's TPL's + Restricted Zones, + software & hardware firewall block lists & using filtering DNS's too vs. threats online - to gain me back speed/bandwidth I paid for out of pocket, & for security purposes too)...

    ... apk

  73. HTML5 is what allows my page to be 30KB by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Mostly thanks to CSS3, which allows me to have a relatively nice design without the use of a dozen images.
    My site consists of 6 files: 4KB HTML, 8KB for modernizr.js, 4KB CSS (2 files), 2KB for a font and 9KB for a small portrait.

  74. Death of Flash? by Synchblade · · Score: 1

    "There is absolutely no doubt that these trends are attributable to the death throes of Flash and emergence of HTML5 and its open web cohorts." Excuse me, but HTML5 isn't even standard yet.

    1. Re:Death of Flash? by Nadaka · · Score: 1

      Fuck it all.

      We would have been so much better off with XHTML 2 than HTML 5.

      I know, I know. I lost that war a long time ago.

  75. Page Size of personal home page... by clockwise_music · · Score: 1

    According to the web developer toolbar -> Information -> Page Size:

    Documents (8 files) - 57 KB
    Images (14 files) - 278 KB
    Objects (2 files) - 409 KB
    Scripts (4 files) - 102 KB (311 KB uncompressed)
    Style Sheets (2 files) - 25 KB (124 KB uncompressed)

    Total 872 KB (1179 KB uncompressed)

    1. Re:Page Size of personal home page... by webnut77 · · Score: 1

      Compression savings is a good reason to run Apache's mod_deflate

  76. CDN by pinkeen · · Score: 1

    Things like JS libraries are more and more linked to Google's (or other) CDN which causes them to hit cache almost all the time.

  77. Great minds think alike... apk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2587352&cid=38465364

    APK

    P.S.=> I've asked this in the past before here too, never got an answer back then either However - I *think* I know why too:

    I.E.-> The "profiteers" that gain by it don't want folks to know how much bandwidth AND SPEED they're BLOWING that PEOPLE PAID FOR OUT OF POCKET, especially after they pay for online bills from ISP's on adbanner loads + CPU processing times for them alone!

    (LOL, "can't let THAT tidbit 'get out'" now, can we? Nope - "absolutely not")... apk

  78. Mine homepage is 0 bytes by compro01 · · Score: 1

    About:blank represent!

    --
    upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
  79. My page is 1/4 that by Khyber · · Score: 1

    Learn to code properly.

    http://tools.pingdom.com/fpt/

    Test your website there.

    A paltry 248.6kB for my web page.

    Test my website (top site in my sig) against yours. Can you score higher than my typical average of 79%?

    --
    Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    1. Re:My page is 1/4 that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Test my website (top site in my sig) against yours. Can you score higher than my typical average of 79%?

      The site I tested was 88%, but I designed it as a very simple site (it is actually for the Uni socity I used to run).

      Posting anon as I modded you informative (the pingdom site looks very usfeul)

    2. Re:My page is 1/4 that by Arashi256 · · Score: 0

      82% - the whole thing is 64kb :D

  80. I Want A Search Engine That Ranks By Load Time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If two pages are otherwise close in whatever ranking algorithm is being applied, I want to visit the one that will paint in my browser window using a few TCP/IP connections and downloading as little stuff as possible. I'd also like to be able to search only for sites that serve everything from a single host.

    1. Re:I Want A Search Engine That Ranks By Load Time by wmbetts · · Score: 1

      It's been theorized that Google does take load time into consideration.

      --
      "Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me". - stolen from Dan C alt.os.linux.slackware
  81. say what? by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

    from what i've seen, the average site, as developed by india, is about 2-3 times that large. a single javascript for the page (of several) might be about 1Mb, though. From what i've seen, it's not uncommon for a page to have more than 5Mb of non-reusable elements. You can thank outsourcing, cut-and-paste programmers, and easily themeable click-to-install frameworks for this.

    --
    ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
  82. 2724 bytes of HTML, 1344 bytes of CSS... by Pembers · · Score: 1

    ...plus a 12K JPEG of me and a 60K JPEG for the background. No Javascript or Flash, because I'm not doing anything that needs them. The site as a whole is probably around 200 megs, but most of that is photos and files to download.

  83. Let's get rid of Flash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Thanks.

  84. 10 Seconds by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

    That was the criteria - 10 seconds to load on a 56k dialup connection - for my business home page. I still use that site, and it hasn't appreciably changed. Now, my information is primarily static, so that helps. I hate waiting for web pages to load when all I need is to read a couple paragraphs of content or get the link to what I need. I don't have all fucking day to waste while your flash animation loads before I can click through.

    --
    Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
  85. Why chromium uses 100MB of RAM to show this page? by geneing · · Score: 1

    Chromium task manager shows that it is using 103,376K to show this page. Why are web browsers so inefficient? This page is ~400K in size. Why is the browser using ~250 bytes per byte of text?

  86. Balance? by rax313 · · Score: 0

    Don't you think it is only natural?
    Since back then the most common connections to the internet was still on dial-up? So it's only natural for webpages today to scale and actually enhances the user's experience if the technology we have now is used correctly.

  87. True... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But if they hadn't included that, Apple wouldn't have paid Slashdot.

  88. Median or mean? by Solandri · · Score: 2

    Median is the measure you want.

    If you use the mean, 90% of web pages could stay the exact same size, but if the other 10% go nuts and increase their size 20x, the mean will grow nearly 3x.

  89. 66.7k - 1k = 65.7k by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I hope your site isn't about maths.

  90. Re:Why chromium uses 100MB of RAM to show this pag by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    this actually interests me also WHY browser (any) uses close to 100MB to display page that is less than 1 MB big? does anyone have anything like "out of 100MB 1MB is used by page, 10MB used by MS DLL 90MB used by 3D DirectX support" so i can understand why small pages i make use so much memory

  91. Still sub-1kb for my homepage... by WolfWings · · Score: 1

    ...but it's purely minimalistic contact info.

  92. Lies, damned lies, statistics by adolf · · Score: 3, Interesting

    So a web page today is about 10x bigger than it was in 2003. I can accept that.

    But in 2003, I had a baseline 2-megabit-per-second Internet connection and could have had a 3- or 5-megabit connection for a bit more cash.

    Today, 8 years later, the "normal" connection speed for my ISP is 6-megabit.

    So according to my observations and their statistics, folks are expected to download 10 times the amount of stuff using just 3 times as much available bandwidth.

    In other words, the web is currently more than three times slower than it was in 2003.

    Hooray!

    1. Re:Lies, damned lies, statistics by swillden · · Score: 1

      Not really.

      You may have had 2 Mbps in 2003, but in 2003 the median US Internet user's speed was less than 56 Kbps, i.e. dialup.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
  93. Re:Your ~/.sig by segin · · Score: 2

    Unless you drive in England.

  94. size... by Obliquitous+Cowherd · · Score: 1

    2.7k home page, yay!

  95. My Blog Has "Widget Fever" by retroworks · · Score: 2

    About half my regular blog readers are based in emerging markets / less developed countries. I began to notice that hittership was dropping in Africa and India. Reviewing about a thousand posts, I noticed that the more photos and "blogger apps" I put on the web page, the lower the readership in countries with low bandwidth. I've been more conscientious now about which photo resolution I post and tend to avoid videos. And a lot of the cool little blogger widgets don't seem as important when measured in seconds to open the page. http://retroworks.blogspot.com/2010/12/blog-has-widget-fever.html Of course my content also sometimes sucks, and it also helps if I lay off the haiku.

    --
    Gently reply
  96. Re:cuteness overload by TaoPhoenix · · Score: 1

    The cuteness overload is steganographically encoding vital information needed for freedom fighters. You didn't think that was just a guy and his pet did you? That was morse code! /I am Kittening.

    --
    My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
  97. Yeah, blame it on the devs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I'd LIKE to write light pages, but I don't get to chose you know.

    The customers ALWAYS want all the bells and whistles, and NEVER care about load times until it's slow on THEIR pc.

  98. Cyclists and dial-up users by tepples · · Score: 1

    If someone is passing you on the right, you are an asshole for driving in the wrong lane.

    "All cyclists making left turns, or going straight on a road with a right turn only lane, are anuses." Say what?

    Just because most people have a car doesn't mean that people who use two-wheeled human-powered vehicles don't deserve the use of the road. Likewise, just because most people happen to live where broadband is available doesn't mean that people stuck behind dial-up or satellite don't deserve a responsive web site experience.

  99. Page Size and Data Limits by mk1004 · · Score: 2

    So now, as carriers start charging based on data usage, web pages continue to grow, and ads they contain as well. It was fun while it lasted.

    --
    I can mend the break of day, heal a broken heart, and provide temporary relief to nymphomaniacs.
  100. Size of my home page by bostongraf · · Score: 2

    Bucking the trend, apparently.

    My home page is 202 bytes.

    The most used link points to a page that is 45 kilobytes. All data, no images, no css. There are 12 people that use it.

    I believe my site design style could be considered Minimalist.

  101. Nice Trend by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I once installed a dynamic facebook button on epSos.de. The button was downloading large JavaScript files that were bigger than the page itself.

    The revenue from the ads fell and the average visitor time went down. The page became too big for the half of the audience.
    It is the little extensions that make the websites bloated !

    The maximum size of an optimal page with images is around 200 kb now. It was around 100 kb not so long ago. The improved rendering techniques of the browsers and the broadband connections made the Internet a lot more fun to create.

  102. Re:Your ~/.sig by mcgrew · · Score: 1

    If someone passes you on the right here in Springfield, they're the assholes, because they're passing you on the shoulder (and it's way too common, I've even seen cops do it). And in town? I'm not going to be in the right lane when I need to turn left five blocks down the road, I'd never get over in time.

    Fujisawa Sensei seems like an idiot with an attitude. Dumbest sig I've seen in a long time.

  103. Deathrows of Flash ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Really, this just seems to show me that JS is bloated and no one is working on a good standard way to make it better. For example a binary JS and binary SVG (canvas). It's bloated because you're downloading 'working files' most of the time rather than publish ready content!

  104. 362 bytes by brausch · · Score: 1

    It is mostly a table of contents. But it does load instantaneously.

    --
    "Almost every wise saying has an opposite one, no less wise, to balance it." - George Santayana
  105. size of my web page by ElliotWilcox · · Score: 1
  106. Disagree by pckl300 · · Score: 1

    Videos are hugely helpful for learning DIY stuff on the web. I can't fathom the number of times videos on the web have helped me learn how to do something I would normally not be comfortable doing.

    Just today, I took apart the glovebox in my car because I watched someone do it on Youtube and realized that it wasn't as difficult as I thought it would be.

    --
    In the beginning, there was null.
  107. Re:Your ~/.sig by segin · · Score: 1

    But that still doesn't change the fact that if someone's passing you on the right in England, that they're not an asshole for doing so.