2011: Record Year For Airline Safety

smitty777 writes "Unless something bad happens in the next two days, we are on track for having a new record for airline safety. The new record of one death for every 7.1 million passengers beats the 2004 record of one to every 6.4m. The WSJ also notes: 'Another low is the total number of passenger deaths; as of today that number stands at 401. Though it was lower in 2004, when 344 passengers were killed in commercial aviation accidents, that year saw 30% fewer passengers as well as far fewer flights. Western-built planes have fared best, with one major crash per 3 million flights, the best number since the International Air Transport Association began tracking crashes in the 1940s. When factoring in other types of airliners, the crash rate is about two per million flights. We are also in the midst of the longest period without a fatal airliner accident in modern aviation; nobody has died in an airliner since an Oct. 13 propeller plane crash in Papua New Guinea. The previous record was 61 days in 1985.' Russia, and counties linked to it, are the only areas that saw a drop. 2011 also seemed to break the record for unusual airline travel events as well."

Comments

JINX!

[Anonymous Coward]

Or... foreshadowing in storyteller's parlance.

nice

[Anonymous Coward]

im sure we can attribute this to the TSA, right? right?

Re:nice

[danbuter]

I'm pretty sure the number of people who fly is down thanks to them not wanting to deal with the TSA, so it is indirectly responsible. Less people flying = less planes in the air = less chance of accidents.

Re:nice

[JWSmythe]

    HAHAHAHAHA!

    Nope.

    But this year they did spend another $8.1 billion dollars. Or as of May 2011 it was $835.9 billion. Or about $281 million dollars for each person who died in the 9/11 attacks. That doesn't include the defense budget used to bomb the shit out of the middle east.

    $8.1 billion, and the only thing I've gotten out of it was felt up at the airport. And I didn't even get a "happy ending" with it... Come on, they make the privacy rooms for a reason, do it right.

Re:nice

[geekoid]

You should note it was based on per people flying.

And very, very, few people don't fly because of the TSA. serious, it MIGHT be 500 hundred people per year, maybe.

Also, more people flew this year then last year.

Re:nice

[jellomizer]

Well maybe?
You should work out the numbers and see if your hypothesis is correct or not.

Except for jumping to a quick conclusion. Analysis Airports that are under the TSA and ones that are not, compare fatalities with comparable aircraft. Check with other countries that might have similar rules for aircraft safety.

You can go half cock and just give an opinion based on your like or dislike of an issue, or you can use Science and Math to test you opinion with facts.

If you are right cool, if you are wrong hey thats cool too, it is all part of Science!

Re:nice

[JWSmythe]

Wrong person, wrong story.

Please return your computer to the place of purchase for a full refund.

Re:nice

[ShnowDoggie]

I know several people who now drive rather than fly due to TSA. I guess that If they were to go far enough they would fly, but on other trips where driving can a option, but a longer one, they drive. I am sure the number of flight seats not taken due to TSA is far more than 500. Added to privacy issues are increased costs due to security requirements. This too will reduce the amount of flying people are doing.

On side note: You are correct that this is based on air travelers worldwide. I would wager that TSA has more influence in the US than the rest of the world. And I wonder what other changes in overall patterns have occurred. Are there more flights outside of the United States now? Less? Are people taking more longer flights and less shorter flights? Are certain kinds of carriers flying more?

Re:nice

[Anonymous Coward]

[I]t MIGHT be 500 hundred people per year, maybe.

Woo-hoo! I'm part of the 0.2%!

Re:nice

[Anonymous Coward]

In fairness, the attack was attempting to kill over 50,000 people. The occupancy of those buildings was often closer to 75,000. That's why the gov'ts gone overboard trying to prevent it from happening again.

Re:nice

[danbuter]

I'd love to find out where you got this statistic.

Re:nice

[HBI]

And very, very, few people don't fly because of the TSA. serious, it MIGHT be 500 hundred people per year, maybe.

That sounds like a hard statistic.

Also, more people flew this year then last year.

That's probably true, but the statistics aren't available yet from the Bureau of Transportation Statistics, so you can't prove it.

I can, however, prove that the population is larger this year than last year, by about 2 million. I can also demonstrate that the population has increased from 281.5 million in 2000 to about 311 million this year, over a 10% increase. There has been no commensurate increase in airline passengers. So your entire point is demonstrably false.

Re:nice

[sjames]

The TSA might turn 500 a year away, but most of the decline it's responsible for decide not to fly in the first place. Some explicitly because they hate dealing with the TSA, some also to boycott the whole thing, and some simply because the TSA related expenses drove the cost of flying above the threshold price for their decision or the added time made driving faster.

Re:nice

[Doc Ruby]

I have cut down on my flying since the TSA got so invasive. It's definitely a factor when choosing the hassle of flying over doing something else.

And I'm sure I'm far from the only one.

Re:nice

[JWSmythe]

If you're going to change it to their intended toll, get it right.

    The WTC towers were capable of falling over onto Wall Street. It wasn't just the buildings, it was the collateral damage. If all 4 planes were targeted for the WTC, Pentagon, and White House, and they had been as destructive as believed, and all the required people were in the right places (Bush was out of town) that would have crippled the US economy, military, and executive branch of the government.

    The incurred death toll, including those who died due to lack of infrastructure later, would have been millions.

    The stated goal from bin Laden was the destruction of the capitalist monster that is the United States. He wanted 330 million people dead, regardless of our position or purpose in this country.

    In recent history, Russia, Germany, and Japan also wanted the same for us, as well as all kinds of fringe groups. Even some Americans want death and destruction for us, and have attempted it.

    Anyone who's familiar with history knows that there's always some group that wants to kill some other group. Luckily, most don't have the resources to accomplish it. Those who do have the resources usually realize that such actions will result in mutually assured destruction.

    I don't have sleepless nights worrying about terrorists killing me. The odds I'll be in a fatal car accident are higher. I avoid what I can, but if something happens that is beyond my control, it will happen.

Re:nice

[Doc Ruby]

What do you mean "overboard"? You mean "invade Iraq and let Binladen go for a decade"?

The government went overboard because the people running it want to spend $TRILLIONS on something that people didn't want to until the government convinced them it would protect them from another 9/11/2001 planebombing. And then going overboard killed many more Americans, cost far more money, and actually destroyed our freedoms far more than the planebombings did.

FWIW, I'm from NYC, and I approve this message.

Re:nice

[Anonymous Coward]

I am as well. I only fly when it is for work, and it is out of state. I never fly within the state of california anymore.. I used to all the time.

Re:nice

[Anonymous Coward]

I used to fly between DC and NY but my last 10 straight trips have been on Amtrak. DCA is actually a really easy stress free airport to get in and out of so my reasons are not directly related to the TSA. The constant afternoon delays leaving NY and hassle getting to and from midtown from the airports compared to the train which goes right to Penn Station were my reasons.

Re:nice

[CohibaVancouver]

I doubt many people are choosing to drive over flying due to 'liquids and gels' rules, groping and the like. However, they are probably doing it over time concerns. If it's an hour to drive to the airport and park, 30 minutes to check in, 30 minutes to get through security, 30 minutes standing at a packed gate area, 30 minutes to board and 45 minutes on the tarmac for 60 minutes in the air, well then a four hour drive with a bag of doritos between your legs and a big gulp in the cupholder doesn't seem so bad...

Re:nice

[pjt33]

The TSA has some influence outside the US, in the sense that I'll gladly pay more to fly a route which doesn't include the US. (As a side-effect, and given the hub-based nature of airlines, I'm also paying more to not fly with US airlines).

Re:nice

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes...by all means, let's not give any credit to the engineers who design and service the airplanes, the ground crews that maintain the airports and air traffic control systems or the pilots that have safely piloted their planes throughout the year.

It's clearly the lack of bombs and hijackings that are making the difference which is why we need even more invasive machines at TSA checkpoints. The TSA mandate should be updated to account for the fact that too few Americans receive their regular screenings for colon cancer.

Re:nice

[antifoidulus]

The stated goal from bin Laden was the destruction of the capitalist monster that is the United States. He wanted 330 million people dead, regardless of our position or purpose in this country.

Except for no, that really wasn't his goal, well at least on not any realistic time scale. His operated on the "think locally, act globally" scale. His real objective was to drag the US into a war in the middle east in order to use their presence as a pretext to grabbing power in the middle east, which is why the bulk of Al Qaeda messages were about events in the middle east and not the US(they would always make anti-US statements because that is what grabbed media attention and helped their recruitment numbers)

And to a certain extent he was right, the attack provoked the US into wars in the middle east, but then again predicting Bush would do something stupid is sort of like predicting the sun will come up tomorrow, it doesn't take a whole lot of insight.

However his prediction that most of the muslim world would rally behind him was deeply flawed. They weren't exactly happy with the US, but sort of realized that what Bin Laden was doing was throwing a rock at a hornets nest then jumping in front of the hornets to show how much they are protecting everyone. While people get pissed at the hornets, they are also not very happy with the dude that threw the rock.

Re:nice

[ceoyoyo]

The TSA might not discourage many people from flying within the US (although some people who used to fly short hop commuter airlines probably drive or take the train now), but they do discourage people from flying to or through the US.

I'll go to great lengths to avoid connecting through the US because it involves a minimum 40 minute trip to the special room.

Re:nice

[ceoyoyo]

"The stated goal from bin Laden was the destruction of the capitalist monster that is the United States. He wanted 330 million people dead, regardless of our position or purpose in this country."

Hm. It seems a rather large leap from destroying "the capitalist monster that is the United States" to "330 million people dead, regardless of [their] position or purpose."

The US has destroyed several democracies and a few dictatorships without killing everyone (or even very many) ordinary citizens.

Re:nice

[jimbolauski]

[I]t MIGHT be 500 hundred people per year, maybe.

Woo-hoo! I'm part of the 0.2%!

1/(500*100) = 0.00002 or .002%!

Re:nice

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you're a bit off on your (uncited) statistics. I fly. I have no choice sometimes. However, I DO have a choice other times, and those times, I don't fly--and it is 100% because of not wanting to deal with the TSA. Don't misunderstand--airlines suck and their abusive attitudes and crammed planes don't help, but they can be dealt with using a little creativity. Thugs masquerading as "law enforcement" acting "for your safety" are hard to deal with and even harder to stomach. The airline industry will be so much better off the day the TSA is abolished.

Re:nice

[Anonymous Coward]

Umm... anyway, they flew (past tense, as in it actually happened) two planes into the WTC, which typically has fifty thousand people inside. This isn't changing anything, it is the reality that almost happened.

You are unlikely to be killed by terrorism, but if it happens again, just like before, it will affect you again. Maybe this time you'll be unemployed for two years.

  I am not advocating that the TSA is the right way to go, I think it's a huge waste and an incredible inconvenience. I am, however, suggesting that you get the details of 9/11 straight if you ever seriously intend to get the gov't to loosen up. As long as you keep arguing that all 9/11 was was a big fluke car pileup where three thousand people died you'll never convince them to change their minds.

Re:nice

[tibit]

A 60 minute flight is more like 8 hours in the car...

Re:nice

[Anonymous Coward]

"very, very, few people don't fly because of the TSA. serious, it MIGHT be 500 hundred people per year, maybe."

Huh ?

God damn it I wish I had a dollar for every idiotic post like yours.

You are citing your opinion as though it were fact, and you don't even
know the difference between the words "than" and 'then".

Please, do the world a favor and commit suicide. And no, I am not joking.

Re:nice

[Anonymous Coward]

And irrelevant, since the summary is talking about deaths per number of passengers. Total number of passengers is completely irrelevant for those statistics.

Re:nice

[LDAPMAN]

Oklahoma City to Dallas is scheduled at 55 minutes gate-to-gate. It's a 3 hour drive. It is usually faster to drive when you consider the total travel time.

Re:nice

[LDAPMAN]

The leap was his. He wanted to convert the world to a muslim theocracy and saw the death of anyone who disagreed as a means to that end.

Re:nice

[Anonymous Coward]

And very, very, few people don't fly because of the TSA. serious, it MIGHT be 500 hundred people per year, maybe.

You are ignoring (or are unaware of) all of the short-hop commuters that don't fly anymore because the TSA-induced delays make other methods faster.

The NYCPhilly crowd all take the choo-choo now. Same with the Texas Triangle.

Re:nice

[Anonymous Coward]

That's because illegal mexicans don't fly...

Re:nice

[grainofsand]

"The stated goal from bin Laden was the destruction of the capitalist monster that is the United States."

This myth persists but is entirely wrong. bin Laden's clearly stated goals were to force the US to remove its military bases from the Holy Lands and have the US end its support for Israel. Nothing more - nothing less.

bin Laden made these comments on many many occasions on the record to respected newspapers. Why Americans refuse to accept what he said and instead make it about bin Laden hating "freedom" or "capitalism" is beyond me.

Re:nice

[tibit]

They must fly very slowly, then. Columbus, OH to Chicago is the same duration, but I had it take 45 minutes take-off-to-landing a few times.

Re:nice

[blindseer]

It's also often cheaper to drive.

I just did a price check on a flight out to my sister's place for spring turkey hunting. The flight would cost about $350. At about 1700 miles round trip I'd figure the fuel would cost me about $350 for fuel to drive. So far I break even.

Now, if I were to fly I'd have to pay to park my truck at the airport for the duration of my trip, or pay for a cab to pick me up. If I'm lucky I can find a buddy willing to wake up early, and/or miss time from work, to take me to the airport. Even a favor from my buddies isn't free, I'd feel compelled to at least offer him some of the game I caught.

Since I can't take so much as an empty water bottle on the airplane I'd have to buy fast food on my trip. With my truck I can pack a lunch, pick up groceries on the way, or at a minimum break even with the plane ride with a meal at Burger King or something. If I pack more than what I can carry with me on the plane I have to pay extra for that. The cost in driving my truck is the same whether it is just me with the clothes on my back, or if I fill it with clothes, guns, and ammo. (Not that everyone carries guns and ammo while traveling but this is a hunting trip I'm planning.)

Then once I arrive at my destination there is a high probability that I'd have to rent a vehicle, incurring more cost. If I drove I'd have a vehicle at no additional cost to me.

Since the trip is mostly interstate highway I can make this distance in one day while the sun shines. Taking a plane the trip would be four, six, maybe eight hours, depending on how long I have to spend at the airport waiting for my connecting flight. That's assuming that there is no weather delays and only one stop is made. If I'm unlucky enough that the flights are full for a one stop flight I'll have to make two stops, that means travel time goes to 12 hours. Not only would a two stop flight take the same time as driving, and cost more, I'd be traveling on the airline schedule, not my own.

I'm fortunate to live near a major airport now. I wasn't always that fortunate. I remember waiting many hours for my connecting flight since I had to take an early flight out of that dinky little airport just so that I could be at the right place to get on the last flight of the day to another dinky little airport. To add insult to my injury I had to sit and watch a rainstorm blow through that grounded all the flights, all the while thinking how much closer I'd be to my destination during that time if I'd only have driven.

When I add up time, money, and convenience to compare flying and driving I find that flying almost never wins. If I can drive there then I will.

Re:nice

[artor3]

If the point you are trying to disprove is "very few people don't fly because of the TSA", you can't refute it by pointing out a lack of commensurate increase in airline passengers as compared to the population, because, say it with me, correlation does not equal causation.

The fact that the number of airline passengers per capita has decreased in the time that the TSA has existed says absolutely nothing about whether or not the TSA caused that decrease. Maybe it was the rough economy and constantly shrinking middle class causing people to take smaller vacations and businesses to cut back on travel. Maybe 9/11 scared some people into using trains or buses or driving, and they never bothered to switch back. Maybe aliens are sneaking down to Earth and brainwashing us into staying home.

The key here is that you have absolutely not demonstrated his point to be false. At the very least, you'd need some polls. As notoriously bad as self-reported statistics are, they still beat conjecture. Of course, he never bothered to back his statement up with evidence of his own, so the best we can say is that we don't know if it's true or false, but it certainly doesn't sound very likely.

Re:nice

[Anonymous Coward]

Out of the void. I know a lot of people who refuse to fly now days and I have not flown for half a decade personally.

Re:nice

[Ihmhi]

So your entire point is demonstrably false.

Or, in layman's terms:

"Bitch, please!"

Re:nice

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like you wouldn't fly this route for this purpose even if 9/11 hadn't happened.

Re:nice

[blindseer]

Perhaps. I flew out to my sister's place before. I've also flown quite a bit prior to 9/11. I used to be able to save a few bucks on travel by packing drinks and snacks to take with me on the plane. I can't do that anymore. A couple cans of Mt. Dew and a big bag of Doritos at the grocery store would cost about $2.50. Buying that at the airport would cost $10.

The cost of the food is a minor thing since I'd probably just end up spending the money on something else I didn't need. What really killed things for me is the insult to my intelligence that they call airport security. I used to find airports to be almost serene, there was rarely a rush and the security was something I really didn't think about. I'd show up, check in, empty my pockets, walk through the metal detector, pick up my bag from the x-ray, and then sit in what used to be a relatively quiet airport until called to board.

Now I have to show up at least an hour early so that I have enough time to get through security before my flight. I have to take off my shoes and belt. I have to have an ID handy to show to the security goons. I have not been groped or x-rayed before but I'm quite sure I would not enjoy the experience. I have this constant fear that I'll be detained or my luggage taken from me while in the airport. This is reinforced by the constant reminders over the PA that any unattended luggage will be taken by security to be shot, spindled, mutilated, exploded, and then buried in an unmarked landfill.

As a further insult I had to pay an extra $50 to check in a bag on my flight, $25 each way. Who flies with only a backpack to carry on the plane? If I did want to take a firearm on the plane there is a process to do that. This takes more time, adds more stress (since a screw up in the process can mean felony charges), and would likely involve more cost (since I cannot carry-on a firearm).

Flying used to be fun. The TSA took all the fun out of it.

Re:nice

[countach]

Car maintenance: depreciation, tyres, etc etc can easily double the raw fuel cost. You need to consider that.

How does it compare

[mehrotra.akash]

How does it compare to rail/car/ship travel?

Re:How does it compare

[hedwards]

Quite favorably, auto fatalities are down, at least in the US, but they still outnumber airline fatalities for the entire world by a huge margin.

One of the big problems with the TSA is that they scare people into taking more dangerous forms of transportation out of a misplaced sense of fear. Terrorism is something to be fought and prevented, but in the grand scheme of things more people die of injuries from car crashes every year than terrorism.

Re:How does it compare

[Sneezer]

> How does it compare to rail/car/ship travel?

Airplanes are much, much faster.

"Hello, airplanes? Yeah, it's blimps. You win!"

Re:How does it compare

[tylernt]

One of the big problems with the TSA is that they scare people into taking more dangerous forms of transportation out of a misplaced sense of fear

I don't think my fear of the TSA or the government it serves is misplaced. I'd say it's pretty well-founded.

Re:How does it compare

[Ichijo]

Airplanes are much, much faster.

Except when they're slower than bicycles!

Re:How does it compare

[Bucky24]

At first glance one would think that the airplane itself is slower then a bike. However, the person flying got to the airport an hour early (as is customary, to get through security), thus giving the bikes an hour's head start (on a trip that only takes a bike 90 minutes). The title of that article is very misleading. But the article itself is interesting.

Re:How does it compare

[geekoid]

I couldn't help but note the cyclist didn't have any luggage.

Re:How does it compare

[jd2112]

I couldn't help but note the cyclist didn't have any luggage.

When landing the airplane passenger didn't either.

Re:How does it compare

[0123456]

One of the big problems with the TSA is that they scare people into taking more dangerous forms of transportation out of a misplaced sense of fear.

Don't worry. If Obama wins the election they'll be setting up random grope-points on the highways next year; can't risk terrorists hijacking a car and crashing it into a school full of kids.

Re:How does it compare

[Ichijo]

If velocity is distance divided by time, and you're using the curb-to-curb distance and the curb-to-curb time (from the time you enter the airport to the time you exit the airport at the other end), then airplanes are not so quick for shorter distances.

This is what makes high speed rail faster than airplanes for distances up to about 400 miles.

The original question was, "How does [flying] compare to rail/car/ship travel?" And the answer given was, "Airplanes are much, much faster." But that is not always true.

Re:How does it compare

[Anonymous Coward]

Quite favorably, auto fatalities are down, at least in the US, but they still outnumber airline fatalities for the entire world by a huge margin.

Total deaths does not make any difference. The 1 serious crash per 3M flights or 1 per 500K flights is comparable to the number of fatal car accidents per how many trips? They don't usually give comparable statistics.

Re:How does it compare

[Doc Ruby]

What makes you think random grope-points won't be set up if someone else wins the election? The other guys are the ones who got us into this grope regime - Obama's to blame for keeping it going. The rest would just escalate it, as they always have.

Re:How does it compare

[rts008]

LOL! Valid point.
You just can't win anymore.
Since I was 'relieved' of my luggage three times in a row flying, had damaged property from luggage searches, etc., I have gotten in the habit of FedEx'ing my luggage.
However, now that I fly with only a book to read, I have been flagged for more searches because I'm flying with no luggage.....SHEESH!

Re:How does it compare

[tibit]

If you're taking a jet -- true. If you're taking a small plane, then you will pretty much always beat the car over 400 miles. Just recently I flew on a single engine seaplane in Canada, and the whole procedure, without planning anything in advance, had an overhead of 5 minutes from walking in without even knowing what options are there to being on my way to the plane. We were airborne within 7 minutes of me signing the credit card slip. I know that such services are not available everywhere, but on a short notice the price is quite competitive with any legacy carrier. And they will fly you very close to your destination if there happens to be water nearby (or even a small airfield open to general aviation).

Re:How does it compare

[Anonymous Coward]

Velocity is a scalar, it includes a speed as well as a direction. Speed is distance divided by time

Re:How does it compare

[artor3]

It's really not. What percentage of passengers are killed by the TSA? What percentage are killed by accidents on road trips?

How many Americans does the US government kill each year? How many die from eating at McDonald's too often?

You'll find the results to be against your current conceptions by orders of magnitude. You can oppose erosion of civil liberties without resorting to the hyperbole of claiming the government is this big, evil, dangerous behemoth. Such exaggerations only drive away rational people who might otherwise join your cause.

Re:How does it compare

[Anonymous Coward]

It's really not. What percentage of passengers are killed by the TSA?

Whoosh!

Re:How does it compare

[sincewhen]

Perhaps you could employ some "mock luggage" full of weird, disgusting, embarrassing - but not dangerous - items.

Re:How does it compare

[zippthorne]

It's really not. What percentage of passengers are killed by the TSA?

We won't know until the results of the long term studies are in. Give us a ring in 15-20 years.

It might be possible to estimate, if we could get some independently verified numbers on the radiation doses they're inflicting.

And that's just the direct kills. The time-person kills are much, much higher. There were about 700 million air passengers in the US in 2010. If the TSA increases the length of time they spend doing bullshit (waiting in line, getting papers in order, obtaining lunch.. anything at all that requires arriving at the airport just a little bit earlier) by a mere 10 minutes, they have killed the time equivalent of over 1500 people.

Re:How does it compare

[zippthorne]

How did you find out about this service? Tell us more, please!

Re:How does it compare

[artor3]

The cancer bit, fine. The dose doesn't seem like it would be enough to kill any passengers (TSA agents manning the things might be a different story) but stranger things have happened. I sincerely doubt it will compare to car crashes though. Few things can.

But "time-person kills"? Are you kidding me? Nobody plans their life to the second. Ten minutes earlier at the airport means ten minutes less sleep, or ten minutes less watching TV. To compare that to killing a person is so shockingly myopic I barely know how to respond. By that logic, oversleeping should be the leading cause of death in America. And the lines at the drivethru... that's a daily holocaust!

Re:How does it compare

[flirno]

There is more overhead with flight -- the overhead has greater impact on short flights because preflight and postflight time is not smaller for short trips even though the distance is shorter. In other words a car is better for short distances. For medium distances it is debatable. For long distances flight will be faster.

Re:How does it compare

[MaskedSlacker]

And the lines at the drivethru... that's a daily holocaust!

You're preaching to the choir mate.

Re:How does it compare

[MaskedSlacker]

Vector. Velocity is a vector. Speed is a scalar. Come on, they even alliterate.

Re:How does it compare

[TheTurtlesMoves]

The thing is we *don't know what the dose is*. They won't tell us. Why I wonder?

Re:How does it compare

[tibit]

I just happnened to visit the harbour seaport on a walk. Any large city with lots of water and lots of population spread out on neighboring islands will probably have a company offering seaplane rides. It's fun as hell, even if you really need to use those hearing protectors if you'd want to do it frequently.

Re:How does it compare

[Anonymous Coward]

| The major accident rate in North America, for example, has remained flat at about one in 10 million flights

I've always been suspicious that air travel fatalities are reported based on passenger miles, rather than trips. Since there are probably well over 100M car trips per day in the US, one death per 10M flights doesn't really compare favorably, does it?

Re:How does it compare

[FormOfActionBanana]

Flying is safer by distance; but driving (a car) is safer by trip.

In case it matters (shouldn't unless you're doing this for your job), flying is safer by hours.

http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/risks_of_travel.htm

Great

[assertation]

Now that they have safety nailed down, maybe in 2012 they can do something about forcing passengers to choose between getting groped or irradiated.

Re:Great

[acidradio]

Hey look, you can't have it both ways. You can either get there quickly and safely... but have to be groped by some sweaty "government employee"; or you can ride in comfort grope free... but gamble with dying in a fiery inferno. The choice is up to you.

Re:Great

[assertation]

but I got there quickly and safely before the TSA and W Bush

Re:Great

[hawguy]

Hey look, you can't have it both ways. You can either get there quickly and safely... but have to be groped by some sweaty "government employee"; or you can ride in comfort grope free... but gamble with dying in a fiery inferno. The choice is up to you.

That would be true only if the groping or scanners were proven to be effective. Even if they were 100% effective at preventing someone from sneaking explosives onboard, there are many other ways to disrupt air travel and cause widespread panic (you only need to breach security at one airport anywhere in the country to breach security at all airports, you can hide explosives in lightly (if at all) inspected catering food, why take down a plane when you can blow up the security checkpoint with the same effect, if you sit at the end of the runway and hit a plane with an RPG, you'll shut down air travel even if it doesn't take down the plane, etc).

Re:Great

[Beerdood]

I choose option B - not getting groped, and I'll take that risk of dying in a fiery inferno. Could you direct me to an airline or airport where this option is available? Oh wait...

Re:Great

[JWSmythe]

    I pick groped every time. They're asking me more often why I refuse the radiation. X-rays, microwaves, whatever, I'm not going to stand in your uncertified, uncalibrated ionizing emitting equipment.

Re:Great

[Bucky24]

I choose option B - not getting groped, and I'll take that risk of dying in a fiery inferno. Could you direct me to an airline or airport where this option is available? Oh wait...

http://www.cracked.com/blog/if-awesome-lunatics-ran-airlines/

Re:Great

[ryanov]

I was most recently told at PBI "You know we don't use the X-ray type, it's the other one." I said, "yeah, that's not why I'm not doing it -- I'm not doing it because I think it's stupid."

Re:Great

[Anonymous Coward]

Only an idiot thinks the choice is between scanners/patdowns, or nothing, and thinks that there is nothing inbetween that is as unobtrusive as possible and does the job.

Re:Great

[JWSmythe]

Fair enough. :) That used to be my reason, until they kept escalating the dangerousness of the equipment being used.

    I just spent a few days in the hospital, and got dosed with probably as much radiation as I should be exposed to in a year. At least at the hospital I know they're generally monitored, but they have failures too. At least the hospitals will eventually figure out they have errors. They also aren't hitting millions of people per year, and only checking to make sure they get an image back once a year at best. It reminds me of the fluoroscopes, except they're hitting virtually everyone that travels.

    I've asked TSA agents about the people they've caught. So far, none. At one airport, the agent told me that he heard about someone at an airport 100 miles away that was caught carrying a gun in her purse, but he couldn't confirm it.

    I was early for the first flight of the day at another airport. I had a good conversation with an agent there. We were discussing the futility of their jobs. There are so many ways to accomplish the same general idea (mass destruction). The TSA having their high visibility job simply means that most likely If a terrorist did attack, they wouldn't use a commercial airliner.

    For $500k you can get a working airliner.. You can squeeze in 20 tons of your favorite explosive (say 2,500 gallons of diesel fuel, and 20,000 pounds of fertilizer), and put it wherever you want. Knowing that bad guys intending to commit a crime aren't the most law abiding individuals, you can knock the price down to $0 on the aircraft if it's stolen.

    But why an airliner. They need specialized training to operate. How about a boat. Or a truck. Or why bring the explosion to the target, when there are so many other choices. An abandon building with gas service could be deadly. It doesn't need to be the building though. Natural gas could be pumped into a sewage system, but is less than ideal since it's lighter than air. Propane on the other hand could be catastrophic for a large area.

    I think the only reason the gov't doesn't hire me as a scenario designer is, I'd give them way too many things to worry about. It's easier to focus on "bad guy wants to get on a plane", and it creates the illusion of security, where lots of civilians have to endure the worthless security checks. Roughly 7 in 10 attempts by the FBI are missed when they've covertly audited the TSA's security. But sure as hell, they still want to touch my penis.

Re:Great

[the eric conspiracy]

Microwave radiation is not ionizing.

Re:Great

[sjames]

Actually, you can be perfectly safe and grope free. The TSA hasn't caught even one person in the whole time they've been active. However small it might be, evidence suggests that unregulated and unlicensed X-Ray generators used by unqualified personnel carry a greater risk than terrorism these days.

Re:Great

[the eric conspiracy]

Not always.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Airways_Flight_49

Re:Great

[CMYKjunkie]

"But sure as hell, they still want to touch my penis." You talk like that's a bad thing!! To think a man would decline a hand-job before a flight - what has this country come to!!

Re:Great

[ryanov]

The last dude who gave me the going over was a 60-ish year old white haired gentleman. I can pass.

Re:Great

[AthanasiusKircher]

but I got there quickly and safely before the TSA and W Bush

Why just W? What about Obama (under whom the enhanced scanners were introduced), or all the Congressmen who argued for it too?

I'm no Bush fan, but most of the current administration, and most of Congress (including most Democrats) are culpable in this as well.

Re:Great

[Anonymous Coward]

That hijacking was back in the era when passengers and crew were told "let the hijackers do their thing, chill in Cuba for a bit, and you'll be fine."

After the attacks (and in the case of flight 93, during), the general public became convinced that there is nothing to lose by using whatever force is necessary to subdue any hijacking attempts. You can say that September 11 ruined the plans of everyone who has a hardon to hijack a plane just to get to Cuba. No TSA necessary.

Re:Great

[JWSmythe]

X-rays are though.

According to the TSA (but not what they tell you at the airport), their full body scanners use both X-ray and microwaves (err, millimeter waves). I don't see a lot of shielding around any of their equipment. When I've looked at x-ray exam rooms (where I had the luxury to examine the space in detail), they use lead lined wallboard and doors to shield the space.

According to L3, their "ProVision" unit uses only microwaves, but they don't specify the frequency nor power. I'd rather not stand in front of a 1000W transmitter, even if it's just for a few seconds. I seriously doubt that they're transmitting in the mW range. According to Wiki, they're in the EHF range (30Ghz to 300Ghz).

The USAF has the Active Denial System, made by Raytheon, which also uses millimeter waves. It will cause a burning sensation on the skin, and can cause blistering. Clearly, that frequency does not pass through, or bounce off harmlessly.

Further testing would be required to determine if the units at the airports are really safe. That testing has not been done.

So, ionizing (X-ray) or non-ionizing (millimeter wave), it's not necessarily good for you. At least with X-rays, we do know the effects. Unfortunately, there is no group responsible for calibrating or verifying the machines.

Testing such equipment on such a broad scale would normally be illegal. At very least it is negligent.

Re:Great

[Anonymous Coward]

There were explosives already smuggled onto a number of airplanes. Explosives that will pass any xray/CT scanner without triggering any alarms. How do I know this? From the news, regular news.

Re:Great

[JWSmythe]

I wouldn't decline the handjob, even if they're doing it where the other passengers can see. My complaint is that I don't get a "happy ending".

Re:Great

[JWSmythe]

... and to further that ...

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=us-glossed-over-cancer-concerns

While the research on medical X-rays could fill many bookcases, the studies that have been done on the airport X-ray scanners, known as backscatters, fill a file no more than a few inches thick. None of the main studies cited by the TSA has been published in a peer-reviewed journal, the gold standard for scientific research.

Re:Great

[the eric conspiracy]

While I despise the TSA, their X-Ray machines use a very very small amount of radiation to perform their scans.

From the article you cited:

"Those tests show that the Secure 1000 delivers an extremely low dose of radiation, less than 10 microrems. The dose is roughly one-thousandth of a chest X-ray and equivalent to the cosmic radiation received in a few minutes of flying at typical cruising altitude. The TSA has used those measurements to say the machines are âoesafe.â'

Normal terrestrial background radiation exposure is 90-200 millrems per year.

Re:Great

[JWSmythe]

    The TSA says... The thing is, the devices are unregulated. There is no one checking to make sure that they're putting out 10 urem. They don't allow security agents to wear dosimeters. No regulatory body is allowed to test them. The TSA assures us that they are checked yearly. They don't go any further in their description of "checked". Is it an operational test, that shows an image can be returned, or is it a true measurement of the emitted radiation?

    One of the problems with the measured dosage also is, it's 10urem in a very discrete beam. It then scans your whole body. This is in a fashion similar to the electron gun scanning on a CRT. It's the cumulative effect of these scans which is in question. So from the time you step in, to the time you step out, is that 10 urem, 100 mrem, or 1 rem? I've been through security roughly 50 times this year. If I had opted to go through the machines, have I been exposed to 50 rem? The EPA legal limit for a nuclear worker is 5 rem/yr.

    In hospitals, we've seen that either due to hardware, programming, or operator error, the wrong dosage is applied. Sometimes it's been with catastrophic effects.

    Just because it's what you might get elsewhere doesn't make it any better. That just means I'm exposed to more. It means that we've increased our dosage beyond normal background radiation.

    Consider it this way... In 1980, the EPA showed the average carbon monoxide content of the atmosphere to be 9ppm. Toxicity is 100ppm. If carbon monoxide were a viable test for whatever, would it be acceptable to breath straight carbon monoxide for 15 seconds?

    The result from this carbon monoxide test would be apparent much quicker than the radiation results. Either way, it's the same. I already get my dose from the atmosphere, I don't need to add to it.

    I've been considering picking up a geiger counter, and carrying it through. Sure, they'll get pissed when they find out, but if I can say "Hey, you just exposed me to 10 rem!" then I'd have something. I'd probably also be arrested for interfering with the TSA, blah, blah, blah. Since I haven't been able to justify spending a few hundred bucks just to fuck with the TSA (and the impending apocalypse, but that's for another time), no matter how right or wrong I may be. Hey, I may find out that it's really trivial. Then my only reason for not going through will be so they'll stop taking pictures of my penis. There's enough pictures of it out there on the Internet already.

   

Re:Great

[Obfuscant]

One of the problems with the measured dosage also is, it's 10urem in a very discrete beam. It then scans your whole body. This is in a fashion similar to the electron gun scanning on a CRT. It's the cumulative effect of these scans which is in question. So from the time you step in, to the time you step out, is that 10 urem, 100 mrem, or 1 rem?

The REM is a measure of the dose, not the rate. If the information is correct, then it will be 10 microrem per scan. "From time you step in to time you step out", 10 microrem, if there is only one scan. Two scans, 20 urem. Fifty scans, 500 microrem.

I've been considering picking up a geiger counter, and carrying it through. Sure, they'll get pissed when they find out, but if I can say "Hey, you just exposed me to 10 rem!" then I'd have something.

A Geiger counter meaures rate, not dose. You need to carry a dosimeter if you want to measure your dose. Those can be as simple as a film badge. You could even hide that badge under your clothing so the TSA droid wouldn't be ordering you to "put that electronic doohickey through the x-ray machine" and keeping you out of the scanner. You'd have to deal with the aftermath of having the dosimeter on you when it was discovered after the fact, but I doubt they'd confiscate it (if they even knew what it was. I've had TSA baggage searchers who looked quizically at something most people would immediately recognize as "a book".)

Re:Great

[JWSmythe]

The REM is a measure of the dose, not the rate. If the information is correct, then it will be 10 microrem per scan. "From time you step in to time you step out", 10 microrem, if there is only one scan. Two scans, 20 urem. Fifty scans, 500 microrem.

Ya, I'm not a nuclear physicist. :) The point still stands. Is that 10 microrem on a single pulse, scan line, one second of exposure? Wanting it to be safe, we can assume from entrance to exit. But if we were working for the company who produces them, we'd put the best spin possible on it, and say "10 microrem" without explaining that it's on a single pulse or scan line. Sure, let people assume it's total exposure, and we'll pretend that none of it goes off it is ever reflected outside of this uncontained space. In reality, it's very likely that you get at least 3 or 4 doses. Probably 2 while you're waiting to go in, one while you're in it, and one while you're standing on the other side waiting for your shoes.

A Geiger counter meaures rate, not dose. You need to carry a dosimeter if you want to measure

ya, but it would likely be more useful to know what the exposure area is. Just because the badge turns black only means that you did indeed receive exposure.

your dose. Those can be as simple as a film badge. You could even hide that badge under your clothing so the TSA droid wouldn't be ordering you to "put that electronic doohickey through the x-ray machine" and keeping you out of the scanner. You'd have to deal with the aftermath of having the dosimeter on you when it was discovered after the fact, but I doubt they'd confiscate it (if they even knew what it was. I've had TSA baggage searchers who looked quizically at something most people would immediately recognize as "a book".)

There's an easy explanation. "I'm a contractor for the NRC, and I am exposed to radiation as part of my job. I am to always wear my dosimeter, so I am sure I haven't exceeded the legal limits. Whereas you are using equipment that does involve radiation (pointing to the carry-on scanner and body scanner), it is important to my health that I know my total exposure per year."

On second though, their eyes will glaze over by the time I got to "NRC". That, and I don't know enough about the NRC's operations to keep the story going. :) I could say "classified", but one phone call will show that lying.

I've had all kinds of questions about stuff I'm carrying. Lots of people have been confused about what I'm carrying. Most of it I can say "computer stuff", and they're happy. You know, it's easier to check my bag with a firearm in it, than carry a second laptop through security. I don't do it on every trip, but often enough.

Oh, and I just found This link from June, 2011 where they say all the people who are monitoring their equipment. This story from Dec, 2010 states that it's false. I guess the lies are still good, as long as not everyone knows...

Re:Great

[the eric conspiracy]

A story from Dec 2010 obviously can't refute a claim made in June 2011 that the equipment was checked in May 2011.

Re:Great

[JWSmythe]

    It's more like, they were already making the claims in 2010. The organizations listed said that they either had minimal interaction, or no interaction, and no requirements to do such testing. They continue repeating it through 2011.

    I don't have the time to investigate it, but I'm sure if you'd like to prove me wrong, you can call the TSA, and other listed agencies, and ask them what the extent of their actions with the TSA and testing the safety of the TSA equipment is.

    If you'd really like to clear the air on it, I can give you an email account at my news site, and you can write up an article on it yourself, which I will publish.

    I'm not too proud to say that I'm wrong. I won't say that I'm wrong because an organization repeated an old disproven claim.

Why spend billions on the TSA?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the numbers are a little skewed to how they want them to be perceived.
If you look at airline safety and fatality rate as a whole, it's ridiculously low. Even prior to 2001 and the TSA's iron grip on our airports, air travel was far safer than any other form of transportation.

Even including the events of 9/11 against the numbers (they aren't included as air travel fatalities in the reports) and you still find air travel as the safest form of transportation.

Why then are we paying tens of billions of dollars each year for the TSA to "keep us safe" when it's already the safest mode of transportation? The US is spending so much money trying to 'protect' us from such an extremely small chance of something happening. More people die in car crashes each month than in the last 10 years of US commercial flight!

It just doesn't make any sense to me.

Re:Why spend billions on the TSA?

[ShnowDoggie]

I wonder how many lives would be saved if we instead put that money towards improving road safety?

Re:Why spend billions on the TSA?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why then are we paying tens of billions of dollars each year for the TSA to "keep us safe" when it's already the safest mode of transportation?

Because they don't want another building with fifty thousand people in it intentionally struck by a plane.

More people die in car crashes each month than in the last 10 years of US commercial flight!

Those car crashes last month didn't tank the economy. Look, I agree that the spending is foolish, but your rationale isn't going to go anywhere if you don't even remember what 9/11 was actually like. Lots of people, for example, like to trot out the 3,000+ fatality number even though, for several days, the fear was that the death toll was in the tens of thousands. More people ignore the fact that several states had to extend their unemployment benefits because the havoc it caused with the economy took longer than six months to recover. The gov't doesn't want this again. They're being wasteful about it, and it's not very effective, but until the argument comes along that actually addresses the fact that 9/11 was more than just three thousand ppl spontaneously dropping dead, it's not going to be taken seriously.

Woo!

[Anonymous Coward]

Less deaths!
More money spent!
More ball groping!
More rights stripped away!
Higher profits for everyone!
Higher cancer rates from irradiating everyone!

Hmmm. Idk if i'd call this a win...

Wow!

[Anonymous Coward]

The previous record was one death every 6.4 metres? that's quite an improvement!

We are also in the midst of the longest period wit

[mapkinase]

No. We are not. We are always in the end of it.

Statistically speaking

[Anonymous Coward]

Something will happen in the next day, or this will be a huge outlier.

note that this even includes some sketchy airlines

[Trepidity]

This includes everything commercial, even ex-Soviet states flying 40-year-old planes with questionable maintenance practices, and the total deaths are still only 401.

FAA

[walkerp1]

And here I thought the FAA shutdown in July-August would have planes falling out of the sky. Who knew?

Re:FAA

[Stupendoussteve]

Any pilot. Many pilots train and barely ever talk to a controller until they go for their Instrument rating. Some go out of their way to avoid airspace where they have to talk to a controller (under 18,000 feet most airspace doesn't even require a radio). Sure, commercial flights on IFR plans require the communication and rely on it for separation and such, but it is not like they suddenly fall out of the sky; even today there are commercial flights that land at nontowered airports where the pilots announce their position to other pilots, as was done in the case where the controller fell asleep. Those small, nearly empty airports movie stars prefer for their charter jets are another perfect example.

Although, even with the FAA shutdown, controllers were still at work.

See?

[scumfuker]

The TSA are doing something! This is proof!

Statistics

[hawguy]

Can you really compare annual statistics from a low probability event like a plane crash to other years to say that one year is safer than another? If a single Airbus A380 crashed tomorrow, it could triple the number of fatalities for this year (from 400 to 1200), but does that really make this year 3 times more dangerous than it was yesterday? And since that accident was only a day away from 2012, if there are only 400 accidents in 2012 does that make 2012 safer than 2011 when the difference is based on a single accident?

If plane crashes happened every day, and this year there were 1000 crashes versus 2000 for last year, then that seems more meaningful. Likewise, combining years into decades seems like it would show safety trends, but if a single accident can skew the annual statistics so wildly, it doesn't seem reasonable to compare by year.

Re:Statistics

[geekoid]

not, it's another data point to look at an overall trend.

You people, sheesh.

Re:Statistics

[hawguy]

not, it's another data point to look at an overall trend.

But does it really show a statistically valid trend? Can I look at this years crash statistics and feel that air travel is safer, or is it a feel-good number that really tells me nothing at all?

You people, sheesh

yeah, no kidding! If people would just believe what they read in the paper without questioning it, we'd all be much better off!

Re:Statistics

[Anonymous Coward]

You can't. The probability of any particular plane crashing is related to the competence of the people who work for the airline and airport. It varies between region to region, airline to airline, day to day. And then there's the weather roulette. In NWT 2011 was a bad year for plane crashes.

Re:Statistics

[ceoyoyo]

Yes, you can. Using the appropriate statistics. But any number without error bars is meaningless, low probability event or no.

Re:Statistics

[marcosdumay]

Getting statistics about aviation safety is one of the hardest things to do. Accidents are so rare that we indeed have no idea on how safe planes are. The ones we have an idea are already near the end of their comercial life.

Funny fact. I was helping a friend to look at the statistics of accidents on brazilian airports by their sizes this year. The intent was to discover if operations on small airports could be made cheaper, while keeping them reasonably safe. We had 5 years of data, on 700 airports. One of the years there happened to be 2 accidents on small airports, what leaded to the conclusion that smal airports are already unsafe. Of course, after error bars, the conclusion was the normal "there is not enough data", not "small airports are not safe".

Hmmm....

[Anonymous Coward]

As I read this while waiting to board a flight, I'm wondering if I'm about to become a number as we regress to the mean.....

Re:note that this even includes some sketchy airli

[Anonymous Coward]

Russian plane strong - use tractor engine and vodka for fuel!

Seriously, they can't wait a couple of days?

[nedlohs]

Afraid of being scooped by some other publication?

All thanks to the TSA

[aenigmainc]

If it wasn't for the TSA, and their tireless efforts to protect us, it would have been a horrible year for air safety. /s

Car travel versus air travel

[hawguy]

I'd like to see the statistics on the number of extra fatalities due to extra car travel by people who are so fed up with TSA security and airline travel in general that they don't want to fly. I know that on a recent vacation, I drove the 1000 miles because I didn't feel like subjecting me and my family to airport security.

I know that statistically it was less safe, but realistically, it was more fun and less stress - no one got felt-up by airport security or had to stand in an x-ray machine, we didn't have to pair down our wardrobes to what would fit in a carryon (or risk having it lost on the way there), no one stopped us from bringing sunscreens, lotions, or our favorite beverages on the road. We even brought a couple bottles of our favorite wine to enjoy at our destination and didn't need to put it in gorilla-proof packaging that can survive checked baggage handling.

Oh, and it was cheaper, including 2 overnight hotel stays. It took more time, but to me, vacation starts when the family is together and on the way, not just when we get there.

Re:Car travel versus air travel

[Overzeetop]

But it COULD have been far easier to fly, and you could have had more time at your destination. Quite honestly, being locked in a tin can, strapped in against potential impact, bombarded by the din of the engine(s) is not hat I call "vacation" or "quality time." It's even less so when I am in charge of the flight.

Imagine a world without the TSA - you arrive 45 minutes before your flight, your checked backs go straight into the cargo hold, you hang around for 10 minutes at the gate before boarding, your flight lasts 1/10 the time as your car travel, and you often arrive at your destination before the next mealtime. Sure, it's cheaper to drive if you have a large group (you're only paying for gasoline and wear/tear once), but the main convenience of flying is - or should I say WAS - time in transit.

It also sounds like your travel took you two days, vs about 1/2 a day for flying. For wage slaves, that's three extra days of limited "vacation" time, for the self-employed, it's three days of opportunity cost (about $3000 for me). BTW - I did a 900 mile trip via air recently - for three people it cost us the same as gas (+/-10%), but it was a discount carrier to a common destination.

Re:Car travel versus air travel

[hawguy]

But it COULD have been far easier to fly, and you could have had more time at your destination. Quite honestly, being locked in a tin can, strapped in against potential impact, bombarded by the din of the engine(s) is not hat I call "vacation" or "quality time." It's even less so when I am in charge of the flight.

To each his own. I'm not sure if you were talking about a car or a plane when you said "locked in a tin can" - when we're driving, we have a lot of freedom - when we're hungry, we stop off at a real restaurant with freshly prepared food, not a $10 "meal" that's been sitting in a warmer for 3 hours where I have to choose between beef and chicken . And a full-size restroom. When we get tired of driving, we can pull into a rest area and let the kids run around and play in the grass. If we see a sign for "Worlds biggest ball of twine", we can go check it out if we want to. While we're driving, the kids can practice their reading, or we play 20 questions, or one of many other car games. Oh, and I enjoy driving, especially when I have no urgency to get somewhere - I go with the flow of traffic, take my time and stay relaxed.

Imagine a world without the TSA - you arrive 45 minutes before your flight, your checked backs go straight into the cargo hold, you hang around for 10 minutes at the gate before boarding, your flight lasts 1/10 the time as your car travel, and you often arrive at your destination before the next mealtime. Sure, it's cheaper to drive if you have a large group (you're only paying for gasoline and wear/tear once), but the main convenience of flying is - or should I say WAS - time in transit.

If air travel was still like that, it's likely that we would have flown - we could have brought the kids favorite foods/beverages on board, we wouldn't to wonder if putting children through an x-ray scanner is worth not having to explain why a complete stranger is touching them in inappropriate places, we would't have to stop and take off their shoes before they walk through a metal detector and then have to search for a seating area to put their shoes and belts back on. The safety factor alone makes air travel attractive, but not when it means inconveniencing or embarrassing my children when forced to go through invasive checkpoints.

It also sounds like your travel took you two days, vs about 1/2 a day for flying. For wage slaves, that's three extra days of limited "vacation" time, for the self-employed, it's three days of opportunity cost (about $3000 for me). BTW - I did a 900 mile trip via air recently - for three people it cost us the same as gas (+/-10%), but it was a discount carrier to a common destination.

The other drawback with airline travel is that it's on the airline's schedule, not mine. If we flew, we would have left on a 10am Wednesday morning flight (the 4pm Tuesday flight would have meant another half day off work, the 6am Wednesday flight would have meant waking up at 3:30am to get to the airport on time). It was a 12 hour drive (excluding stops)...we got on the road at 5pm Wednesday just after I got off work, and drove until midnight. I had planned on stopping around 10pm, but traffic was light, I wasn't tired, and the kids were sleeping, so we kept going to an upcoming larger town). The next day we got on the road at 9am after breakfast and got to our destination around 2pm - just in time for hotel check-in and maybe an hour after we would have gotten to the hotel if we had taken the flight. So while driving did cost more time, it didn't really eat into our vacation time. On the way back we left Tuesday afternoon instead of flying home on Wednesday morning, so we lost 1/2 day of "vacation", but only a few usable hours, most of the time we spend driving would have been spent in the hotel room.

The cost savings was not a major factor in choosing to drive, but it was significant savings - we paid around $300 in gas (round-trip), $80 each for two nights of hotels whil

Re:Car travel versus air travel

[AthanasiusKircher]

I'd like to see the statistics on the number of extra fatalities due to extra car travel by people who are so fed up with TSA security and airline travel in general that they don't want to fly. I know that on a recent vacation, I drove the 1000 miles because I didn't feel like subjecting me and my family to airport security.

As much as I wish more people chose not to fly to protest the TSA's security measures, I doubt that number is that significant.

However, the hassle that the TSA causes and added time to travel probably does make a difference for many. Despite living very close to a major airport, it doesn't make sense for me to take a plane unless I'm going somewhere more than about 400 [highway] miles away. By the time you add up the time on public transportation to the airports, the boarding time, and the TSA "bonus" time allowance, I could usually have driven 200-300 miles. And I get to pay many times the amount I'd pay to drive, with greatly decreased flexibility in my schedule, maybe to get an hour or two of time not spent standing in a line or waiting for something to happen?

A lot of families do the math, I'm sure. It's not just the TSA but the whole airport experience. And the increased road traffic undoubtedly causes increased casualties on the road.

Given that there are roughly 40,000 traffic fatalities every year in the U.S., even if traffic rates were increased by 1%, that could increase those numbers by 400 extra fatalities per year. (Obviously, this is a very gross estimate.) Over 10 years, that would cumulatively amount to more deaths than from 9/11.

That said, I'm not sure the anti-airline sentiment has led to an increase of 1% in traffic or more, but fear of flying after 9/11 may have resulted in a significant number of road deaths, so I'm sure the effect you mention will have some significance: http://www2.johnson.cornell.edu/thoughtleadership/feature.cfm?feature=62

Re:Car travel versus air travel

[Stupendoussteve]

If you have any interest, you ought to look into getting a pilot's license. More fun and freedom than airline flying, faster and more direct than a car, usually an airport closer to your actual destination and the trip can be a unique part of the adventure (which may make up for the likely extra cost, though at four passengers it might about break even).

Tell that to Lokomotiv Yaroslavl

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure it'll make them feel better.

Re:Silence of The Lamb Penises

[Anonymous Coward]

No, but I've seen a form of duct tape on large commercial airplane wings. Really. It's some really strong duct tape.

Usafely Groped

[Doc Ruby]

I've never worried about dying in a plane based on safety stats. Once in a while when I actually fell from the sky for a while I had my worries ;), but not because 1 in 6.4M is any more worth worrying about than 1 in 7.4M.

But there is the very real risk of getting fondled by TSA, or baked under some extra full-body x-rays, that happens to many thousands out of every 6.4M or 7.1M passengers. And which does practically nothing to keep any of us from dying in a plane.

Re:Silence of The Lamb Penises

[Anonymous Coward]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_tape

I don't think so.

[Anonymous Coward]

No. It's attributable so improved training of pilots and more automation in the cockpit.

Thank you Cyberdyne Systems

[grumling]

I think a lot of the credit should go to the neural net processors flying the planes.

Re:Thank you Cyberdyne Systems

[hawguy]

I think a lot of the credit should go to the neural net processors flying the planes.

There actually are neural net processors flying the planes (but of the natural biological form, not from Cyberdyne). But they play an increasingly smaller part in piloting planes. Is that a coincidence (because aircraft are safer in general) or one of the reasons behind increased air safety?

Re:Thank you Cyberdyne Systems

[T-Bucket]

But they play an increasingly smaller part in piloting planes.

Are you shitting me? I happen to be one of these neural net processors, and that statement is a HUGE load of crap.

who flies anymore

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe less people die, because less people fly, most notably those with dignity who refuse to endure the TSA's draconian tactics. I read a related article today about how 2012 looks to be even more abysmal for the airline industry, which also ignored the elephant in the room (the TSA)

Re:who flies anymore

[hawguy]

Maybe less people die, because less people fly, most notably those with dignity who refuse to endure the TSA's draconian tactics. I read a related article today about how 2012 looks to be even more abysmal for the airline industry, which also ignored the elephant in the room (the TSA)

Since they are comparing deaths per passenger, they've already taken into account the number of trips taken.

But they don't take into account deaths of travelers that choose other, less safe, forms of transportation because of TSA and poor airline service/policies.

It would be interesting to see that number - if that number of deaths is higher than the projected number of terrorism related deaths that TSA is supposedly preventing, we may be paying TSA large sums of money to kill people.

Damn you terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

for your evil plan to increase airline safety

ETOPS change

[Hadlock]

I find it interesting that this media blitz comes at the same time as a lax in the rules on ETOPS saftey rules: http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/airlines-cleared-to-use-santas-shortcut-6281263.html

airport security --

[maestroX]

sorry had to post the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQdC-e82gmk

VIPR

[Phoenix666]

I do the same but that option is about to go away, too, because the TSA has what they call VIPR teams (Visible Intermodal Prevention and Response) to bring their security theater to every other form of transportation in America. I have seen them in the New York subway. There have been reports of them stopping cars on the highway. It won't be long before "Comrade, your papers please" becomes standard practice in America.

Re:Silence of The Lamb Penises

[Anonymous Coward]

Google Images "loopback.jpg"