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Kinect For Windows Releasing On February 1
clinko writes "Microsoft has announced that the new Kinect for Windows hardware and accompanying software will be available on February 1st, 2012 in 12 countries, at a suggested retail price of US $249 ($149 for edu). Microsoft has chosen a hardware-only business model for Kinect for Windows; they will not be charging for the SDK or the runtime. These will be available free to developers and end-users respectively."
I can get a Xbox 360 with a Kinect for $200. So, why should I pay more for just the hardware? Wasn't the hardware just on sale for Christmas for like $99?
The console version is crippled by the limited bandwidth of USB2 as interface...
Or you could, you know, read the article. The directly address why the windows version costs $100 more than the Xbox version, and after reading the entire article, I think it is both justified and reasonable. While I have little expectation that you are going to read this reply, given that I use words, like the article, I am going to summarize the important parts with regards to your statement.
The Kinect for Xbox was subsidized by Live subscriptions and game sales, with the PC version they are going to focus on the hardware and allow people to innovate with their hardware for free. Instead of paying for licenses to develop or for support, etc - you pay the entire cost at purchase, and you will get support for the product without expense.
While you can complain and gripe about the extra hundred dollars, I would implore you to maybe stop and think about what you are getting for the price. Why don't we ask around and see how much other companies are charging for a single device that includes video and audio functionality as well as speech to text translation and motion capture. At $250 this device is a steal. Yeah, times are tough, money isn't raining from the skies, but with all the iMorons blowing through apple products like a new york heroin addict in the hills of Afghanistan, well, skip an update on your phone one month.
I believe that the Kinect is going to do more to revolutionize computer interaction, gaming and functionality more than any invention since the second button on a mouse. They could price this at 500 dollars and I'd put down money that every retailer would blow through their inventory. At 250 dollars, not only will they put one on every computer inside of 2 and a half years, but they are laying down a foundation for young engineers, scientists, hackers and hobbyists to create a community with vast potential.
While this site often condemns the 'greed' of corporations such as MS, Sony, Google, etc - I think this is a case where I feel proud to have put my money towards innovation.
Don't see anything about it being USB3.
I tried reading the article sorry press release. Which is mostly marketing speak, lots of talk about how great and innovative it is (and I don't take their word for it as it's a press release) and got barely halfway.
Then I checked out Wikipedia to get an idea of what it really is.
Any somewhat independent review of this one would be appreciated. From the looks of it, it sounds like a very interesting device indeed. Now if only Microsoft would put more of that innovative power in their other products... but well maybe this really is the only division in the company that has vision and creativity.
-edit- surely enough, such subsidized sales are illegal in a lot of countries, including holland. But in practice it's seen all over, like inkjet printers etc. and everyone seems to accept this kind of trading.
....Microsoft shattered the existing controller paradigm by inventing a new natural user interface system that enables advanced human tracking, gesture recognition, voice control and more.
Wait, just wait till you flip off your computer and yell at it. Then you tell me this is a good idea!
I preferred it when my computer was oblivious to my gestures and voice.
Non-commercial deployments using the new runtime and SDK will require the fully tested and supported Kinect for Windows hardware and software platform, just as commercial deployments do. Existing non-commercial deployments using our beta SDK may continue using the beta and the Kinect for Xbox 360 hardware; to accommodate this, we are extending the beta license for three more years, to June 16, 2016.
If there is any major crippling, here would be the major part of it.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
The Kinect has a user base of 18 million units world wide, let's assume only half of those are USB units, that's 9 million units. Instead of Microsoft allowing home users to use their XBox Kinect with Windows Metro apps, home users will be forced to buy a new Kinect to use it with Windows apps (commercial apps anyways, they can use apps made with the beta SDK).
With this move Microsoft has reduced the PC user base of Kinect to 0, eliminating a huge audience for developers. The reason given was that the XBox Kinect was subsidized by game sales, but if using that defence, why not just subsidize this Kinect through the new app store Windows 8 will have? This would let home users use their existing Kinect and keep Microsoft's bottom line doing well in the long term. This is just a very dumb move overall.
Foreword to pro-M$ trolls, I did RTFA and I know about the "near" feature of this new Kinect, but it still doesn't justify this move.
Geeks don't grock information, they grep it.
I mean, really? What would you use a kinect for sitting at your desk in front of your computer screen? Waving your arms in the air? Oh, wait...
If a user shakes their fist rock-paper-scissors style at their screen, it opens the browser to their favourite porn site in private mode.
Geeks don't grock information, they grep it.
Kinect is the most hated add-on in the history of gaming.
I take it someone never had a power glove.
You can't even mention the device without gamers trashing it.
You can't mention MacOS or Windows without enthusiasts in the computer field trashing it in favor of Linux.
Does this mean they're bad? Not really. It just means people who are essentially gaming hipsters don't like it.
You dislike the Kinect. "Gamers" apparently dislike the kinect. It honestly doesn't matter. "Hardcore gamers" hated on the Wii and it's still hemorrhaging money among the larger, non-hardcore audience.
The Kinect may not be the greatest for pumping out maximum gaming performance, but it's still a hell of a peripheral for non-gaming purposes.
"Or you could, you know, read the article. The directly address why the windows version costs $100 more than the Xbox version, and after reading the entire article, I think it is both justified and reasonable. While I have little expectation that you are going to read this reply, given that I use words, like the article, I am going to summarize the important parts with regards to your statement."
I have read your reply and I note that you have indeed used words. Might have been a good idea if you had read your own reply.
Hmm, why do we need a Kinect for Window? To use gestures on a PC? For education and doing cool stuff (automated rigging, 3D scans and so on) people already using the available hardware to achive their goals. Do we need the PC version to work with windows and their tools more efficiently? Or for PC games (PC games = games in front of a pc, high likely in a comfortable chair) ? I am just a bit confused about the why. Please enlighten me.
Why Kinect for Windows? Why not Kinect for PC? If, as the summary says, Microsoft has chosen a hardware-only business model, then there's no reason they should tie it to a single OS.
Dropbox drops it like it's hot.
It's probably not worth your time. The people complaining will be the PC gaming zealots that hate this device because it originated from the console.
The same people who will gladly blow the best part of $1000 on the latest and greatest graphics card at release.
As you say, what you get for your money, particularly relative to the cost of many other PC gaming components, this is a steal regardless.
Really, this was one of the most impressive things about Kinect from the outset, not that the technology itself was pretty impressive, but that Microsoft had managed to do such impressive tech cheaply, when previously such technology would've cost over 4x as much to put together yourself.
>Or you could, you know, read the article.
I'm afraid I can't do that, Dave.
If I'm going to use it in an unofficial capacity, such as 3d-modelling on Linux or put it on a robot whose brain runs Linux, then I should stick it to the MS and get the subsidised X-box one?
Some of my favourite people are from th US; Vonnegut, Chomsky, Bill Hicks.
Where are such sales illegal, and why?
Moreover, the advent of LibreOffice has made Kinect the only relevant product sold by Microsoft. Isn't it about time they skip all their other products and focus on Kinect, only?
Yes, because everyone is exactly like you. While all children got that self-esteem building in elementary school, it turns out it was all a lie, except for you. You are the one true, special snowflake in the world.
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
> I believe that the Kinect is going to do more to revolutionize computer interaction, gaming and functionality more than any invention since the second button on a mouse. They could price this at 500 dollars and I'd put down money that every retailer would blow through their inventory. At 250 dollars, not only will they put one on every computer inside of 2 and a half years, but they are laying down a foundation for young engineers, scientists, hackers and hobbyists to create a community with vast potential.
So you're one of those people, eh?
Very well. Go ahead and hold your arms up to your monitor. Point at something on the screen with both your hands. Great, now hold that position for 5 minutes.
Now you know why nobody cares about this sort of tech for any sort of reasonable work. Keyboards and mice work because it requires very little energy to remain idle or do the most simplest of tasks (move your cursor over to press a button, etc). The Kinect has you moving your entire arm and hand. Try doing that all day long.
Kinect is a passing novelty. Kinect on the computer is even more so. Nobody will care about this in 3 months. Minority Report computing was never practical, it just looked good on the silver screen.
-AC
No because if you don't buy one, they lose the full price of the cost of manufacturing and distributing. If you buy one, even if they are selling at a loss, they get some of that back. You can 'stick it to them' by buying their competition's products.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
go look around on google - yes, the article had marketing buzzwords, its how business works, but beyond that - over the last year so many amazing things have come from the kinect - the hacking/modding community was come up with some very innovative ways to use it and the science schools have already done magic with this thing - didn't MIT use a kinect hack to do a real time holographic projection chat? it was crude, but it was a beginning
not to feed the troll, but you apparently haven't bothered opening your windows and looking outside :) congratulations on finding someone who agrees with you on the internet, btw :) to think you found an article where someone trashes something you dislike, and you wave it up in the air like a victory flag.
According to the Guinness book of world records, more people like the kinect than hate it, but in your defense, they were probably too busy having fun to spend any time online responding to flamebait. I'm out, flap your armfat once in a while buddy, use your anger for something healthy.
It's restricted by the Xbox 360's dodgy USB controller, not by the available bandwidth. And reportedly that's something that will be addressed in software.
No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
I have a Kinect, but I never use the motion sensing aspect since my living room is just slightly too small. For it to see my whole body, I have to to stand as far back as I can. I don't think my room is all that small by British standards (millions of people live in Victorian semis like mine).
I find myself wishing there was a wide angle lens addon (would that work?)
People's desktop PCs tend to be in studies that are smaller than the rooms where they keep their PCs. And people tend to sit in front of PCs. I think developers are going to need to start concentrating on developing software that deals with less of the body.
I find the voice recognition stuff pretty handy. "Xbox, play DVD" is easier than searching for the remote.
I think that if you really want to "stick it to the MS"(joke?) you shouldn't buy it at all. I don't follow why people would want to stick it too them in this instance anyway. I haven't read the article but there's more to the unit than the cost of the hardware, there's software and research and QA etc. I haven't given much thought to wheather or not I agree with their pricing, other than it does seem high, however if they wanted to cut the desktop market out they wouldn't do that via pricing, they simply would not release a desktop version of the kinect at all.
Well, that's not really what a Kinect is.
Basically, you are comparing a web camera to a combination of: web camera, infrared based depth sensor with a CMOS camera, and a multi-array microphone. That's a whole lot more data than your average webcam provides. Especially the depth sensor really makes a significant difference; the distinguishing ability to determine points in 3D space has spawned a number of rather interesting possibilities. Heck, I even saw some guy on youtube use his Kinect to create 3D maps of his environment (along with textures). Try achieving that with eviacam.
Now, we could also throw in all the software features from eviacam and pit them against Kinect's abilities to detect human beings, their joints, and track their every movement in 3D space.
Mind you, I am not really a big fan of Kinect either (I don't even own one, never have), but you are basically not really making a fair comparison there.
Because, as the summary so graciously left our, the Kinect for Windows hardware is able to focus up to 50 centimeters, much closer than the previous model. This is a much better SKU for up-close projects that will be on desktops.
As long as you don't want your Kinect to be able to focus at 50cm, I guess. You'll need an external power supply for the Kinect, though
This technology is not new. I used to setup CCTV security cameras for small businesses, and we had motion tracking PTZ cameras back in 2008. Some of the newest security camera software like GeoVision have many features to track and recognize faces and objects.
-- By all means let's be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out.
I see it as all good to sell the "hardware" which is costly to produce and requires a large infrastructure investment, and give away the software, which once development is done, is essentially free to reproduce (very low cost anyways). It is certainly a refreshing departure from Microsoft's traditional view that hardware should be free and software what people pay for... from a production point of view it is completely ridiculous. The ease of software reproduction makes it a concept difficult to enforce. It makes more sense to pay more for hardware, which anyways is expensive to produce so that "pirates" will not bother with the investment.
I think this is a good direction for Microsoft to take. I for one want to encourage it. I'd rather pay more for hardware, than pay for the software.
I like my dinosaurs feathery, and my pterosaurs hairy (or is it pycnofibery?)
I'm not sure this is the case. Products subsidised by the government are often illegal under certain trade agreements (especially in Europe), but I've never heard of a law saying a company can't subsidise their own product - why would a law stop a company giving money away? This has been standard practice in some industries for decades, the only issue is where it leads to anti-competitive practices.
Can't wait to see the Minecraft plugin! I'll be spending hours swinging my arm in a hacking motion! Though, my neighbors might think I'm a sadistic axe murderer.
FYI: the Kinect costs are estimated around $20. Subsidizing? Not really. Gorging? Yes.
Do you have a source for that? The teardowns I read suggested lowest cost estimates were $50~ish just for the components, that's not including software (i.e. any licensing costs), hardware assembly, packaging, shipping, the retailer's cut, etc. It would surprise me if MS were losing money on Kinect sales but I don't think they're pocketing vast sums either.
No thanks, I'll stick to the keyboard + mouse or gamepad. I've already spent my novelty minutes for silly motion-controlled games on some early Wii games, and I spent my novelty minutes for Minority Report-style desktop controls back when the P5 glove came out. It makes your arms tired.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
No, clearly you don't understand. MS is paying for all the positive reviews. And all the users who claim to like the product, they're all being paid as well. The 900+ reviews on Amazon with an average score of 4.5/5? All bought and paid for. And every negative review is 100% genuine, not sour grapes and definitely not paid for by competitors. Now, give GP back his shiny tinfoil hat and let's... slowly... back... away...
LOL. I think you are talking about the PS3, not 360. Lets see:
Piece of junk webcam....check ....I forget, which was is laughed and compared to looking like a sex toy...oh yeah....check
Last place console...check
Bad tech...check
Gamers trashing it
Yep, I think it's clear you got your 360 and PS3 mixed up.
It's amazing that you can even begin to think the move is better tech than a kinect. The kinect isn't just a camera. It projects and IR grid into the room, and then uses stereo cameras to detect the projection depth of the grid. With this it can actually build an accurate depth map of the room and identify complete 3 dimensional object. It can then use this to accurately reconstruct skeletal structure of players.
Compare this to the Move. I actually find that hardware hillarious. They basically took system hardware that was many times more powerful than the Wii, had the advantage of learning from the Wii's mistakes, and had several years of R&D advantage over the Wii. And what did they come up with? A system that's barely more capable than the Wii, with contollers that look stupid. Compared to Move, the Kinect hardware is brilliant and elegant.
PC Gaming Zealots only surface when console fan boys can't admit technological inferiority. Who cares we buy nice graphics cards on launch. These help with frames and gameplay. No effort to show us how a $250 kinect will improve our desktop gameplay has been made. Atleast I can get benchmarks on my new GeForce 4977hundred ex ct overclocked new edition. :)
You didn't read the article, did you?
No, I know you didn't.
Yeah I'd prefer the mouse. Anyone who is out of shape or older is going to prefer the mouse. Anyone doing time consuming work on a computer is going to use the mouse. It just seems very non-ergonomic as an interface for use when sitting down at a computer. Now if you were using the computer hooked up to a 60 inch screen sure. But a computer with a small monitor on a desk? No way.
Sorry, I missed that you actually had some arguments.
>Its not more powerful ( Power for a computer to me means what it can do. More programs means more power. Less programs mean less power.)
It IS more powerful as in More programs, except games
>Its not easier to learn.
It is AS easy.
>Its not easier to use.
It is AS easy
>And free isn't a good selling point if all you get what you paid for.
It IS free, but not free as in Pirate Bay
One of the claimed improvements is near mode, HOWEVER the hardware within the 360 Kinect also has a 50cm minimum distance limit. I can't help but suspect that people are going to do side-by-side tear downs only to find theres little change apart from the SKU number in the firmware.
The annoying thing is....a good near mode (20cm) would be a godsend for certain kinds of research since that class of hardware still comes in at a few thousand $. Have a look at Omnitouch (Harrison et al, 2011) for some examples of what is possible.
I'll be looking at interest at this when released - just not getting my hopes up.
In the home Linux is great for power users willing to invest the time to to learn how to use it. General consumers? Not without a whole lot of coaching from a power user for a lot of reasons.
I can't help but think you might be able to do some cool things if you taped a Wii Motion Plus remote to a Kinect and waved it around. Easy all-aspect 3-D?
Sent from my CR-48
I love Linux, but I too get a bit annoyed when people claim that it is easier to learn. It's not. It's made great strides but remains the domain of the power user. I love linux because I'm most comfortable in the UNIX world. The system make logical sense to me, and I'm partial to it's methods of doing things. I also love Linux for how customizable it is. I believe Linux is better, but only if you really know what you're doing (or are willing to learn) and willing to put the time and energy into it. I also really dislike the Windows way of doing things, but I will admit that for the average computer user these days, it is the most efficient & economic choice.
~theCzar
I see this as a good move. Maybe it won't be very appealing or cost effective for the general users, but it will likely open up an opportunity for people trying to exploit the technology to find cool new uses for it. I've heard of projects to use it for 3D rendering, which may be greatly advanced by the move to the PC with a free SDK.
~theCzar
Aside from home brew and "alternative" uses for Kinect on a PC, I think motion control gaming on the PC platform is pretty useless.
Trying to play Kinect games off a laptop or even worse, a desktop, in some vain attempt for Microsoft to dominate all forms of game platforms is probably not going to be very popular. I really can't see drawing a bunch of friends into my office to play games, I don't have the room to accommodate a large number of people in my office, opposed to my Living Room which traditionally is where people congregate in the home. Also while the idea of matching Kinect with a laptop sounds appealing at first, "Hey, lets go camping and bring the Kinect!", the idea of trying to play motion control games on a 13" - 15" sun glared screen is ludicrous.
Also those that bring the PC into the living room for gaming, do you really need a $2000+ PC gaming system when you are playing casual games that can run on the iPad? Most people own a game console because they are $200. Hell, I know people that impulse bought a game console before a party to get Rockstar or Kinect because they are so cheap.
I am sure Microsoft's major motivation is to open up Kinect development for alternative uses other then gaming on the PC platform, but if their goal was to open up motion gaming on the PC platform I think their motivations are short sighted. Kinect is about being social, desktop gaming where you sit alone jerking your arms to reach some ultimate goal is kind of pathetic.
I haven't thought of anything clever to put here, but then again most of you haven't either.
Please site evidence of every positive review being paid for.
I try Linux again and again. I cant even figure out how to run the damn text editor with a keyboard only. I love computers, but I HATE how Linux assumes you have a fuckton of pre-existing knowledge.
Good-bye
"PC Gaming Zealots only surface when console fan boys can't admit technological inferiority."
That's probably because console gamers are too busy actually just getting on with playing games, for the most part they're people who have more fun playing games than engaging in verbal masturbation about how you've managed to sacrifice a few weeks of your video card's life for a whole extra 1fps.
Simply put they don't care about the technology, they just want to play games to unwind, and consoles are the easiest way to do that.
"No effort to show us how a $250 kinect will improve our desktop gameplay has been made."
If you haven't noticed what Kinect allows, be it the 360 based Kinect games, or the various Kinect tech demos put together by hackers, then maybe you're not the target market anyway?
It seems like it could be a useful design tool for 3d navigation.
If you want to twist an object around for a certain perspective, you could just lift your hand slightly and turn the object around to the position you want to see, then go back to working on the object with your mouse.
Obviously, this is something you can do without Kinect, and you can probably do it with more precision with the existing control. But having the ability to quickly and casually interact with it to see results from different perspectives could add some benefit for the small niche that does a great deal of 3d design work.
Agreed. It could be a great auxilliary input device. But for persistent repetitive motion typical of working or gaming or really even lengthy web surfing it is a hard sell.
From another point of view -- in _light_ gravity environments it may be superior to mice. Deep inside a gravity well it has limitations due to the limits of human physiology and simple endurance.
Or in boyancy neutral environments...say while underwater in a wetsuit.
PC gaming absolutely has technical superiority in terms of ability to drawing detailed graphics at high FPS rates. But consoles have more control options. I prefer to shoot at enemies by aiming a gun at them, not moving a mouse. My consoles are also hooked up to a much superior AV system in terms of screen size and surround sound. I miss the old days of PC gaming, when games actually supported game controllers. I remember buying a crazy beast of a contraption just to play Descent. Kinect for PC opens up more choices. If the resulting games aren't fun, people won't buy it, so what are you afraid of?
I can't even say whoosh, it's more like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4f3vJjvR9c
Which only means Linux is not for you. It's really a situation of "To Each Their Own" I hate tons about Windows, but I fully accept that Linux does not provide the solutions most users need. ...yet... :)
~theCzar
>I don't follow why people would want to stick it too them in this instance anyway.
I, personally, would take the opportunity to stick it to M$ because they are capitalists and they are about non-free software. That part about sticking it to them was more or less a joke, though. It would seem silly to fight capitalism in general and M$ by buying a kinect, even if I would only use a reverse engineered API (or whatever) on GNU/Linux. But dismantling the whole capitalist system is such a big undertaking, so ... what can I do? I know I should be a vegan communist RMS, but I'm just too weak. That doesn't mean the vegan communist RMS:s are wrong, though. They're right. It's just that I was nursed into this western abundance and even though my riches are directly dependant on the exploitation of poor brown people on the other side of the globe, I can't not go buy the cheap t-shirts and noodles. It's not my fault, IMHO. Someone else is running the show.
Some of my favourite people are from th US; Vonnegut, Chomsky, Bill Hicks.
The hardware will be different. One of the things is the normal kinect starts detecting from about 80cm.
If you want to put a kinect on your desk, that's not very practical, so they changed that.
And there are more changes, for what I know...
Privacy is terrorism.
So you get less for more money and that's "justified"? I'm a firm believer in "cost plus" pricing. Sell what you make at 10% over cost, and sell lots of them. But no, it's "what will the market bear" pricing on everything, milking some and loss-selling elsewhere, then whining like idiots when the X-Box version gets sold to PC users and used there because, as far as I can tell, it's the same thing (or people buy your PS3 and use it as a computer)..
Learn to love Alaska