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Navy May Use Mine-Detecting Dolphins In the Straight of Hormuz
New submitter cervesaebraciator writes "The Atlantic Wire reports that the Navy has a tested solution to the possible mining of the Strait of Hormuz. The Navy has 80 dolphins in San Diego Bay trained to use their own sonar to detect mines. When they find the mines, the dolphins drop an acoustic transponder nearby, so that human divers might return to defuse it. Retired Adm. Tim Keating cannot say, however, whether the dolphins will be used in the Straight."
The Obama administration has reportedly warned Iran that closing the Strait would provoke an American response.
With lasers of course...
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081210140645AADMNkG
Whats the difference between Straight and Strait?
Straight, as in a line without a waver or curve.
Strait: "A strait is a narrow, navigable channel of water that connects two larger navigable bodies of water. "
And for the love of foreigners, if you guys do something about your spelling issues, please remove unsounded letters (like the "gh" in straight"), don't add any more of them. That's just cheating at scrabble!
Given how intelligent dolphins are, and how much technology and money it would take to replicate the functions and capabilities of a living creature, I don't think your view plays out. You talk about how expensive it would be to train dolphins, but it would be many more times expensive to use hardware instead.
... and thanks for all the oil !
Dolphins are a recognised Cute Animal. People like them. People love them. People have made a TV series around one. Some people practically worship them. If a dolphin is killed in action, the public outcry is unpredictable. Maybe it'll be nothing at all, maybe it'll be worse than a human casualty - after all, people expect those. KIA dolphins are unprecidented, there is no telling how it will go PR-wise. Other than that PETA is probably already writing their first letter of complaint, of course.
I can just imagine the brouhaha that PETA will kick up over this.
If we go to war with Iran, I feel like PETA will not find a very receptive audience to said brouhaha.
Besides, Dolphins are cooler than nukes. They have sex for fun and are the second most intelligent creatures on the planet.
-- IANAL, this isn't legal advice, and definitely isn't legal advice for you. Also, Squee!
You know, for the Americans to but the hell out of other countries business and look at their own issues instead.
Stop waging war on the peoples of this planet (those that have oil at least) and you might find your place in the world moves up from itinerant and hated troublemaker to respected citizen.
Hard I know aftrer so many decades of poking your nose it's not welcome... but hell, give it a try.
Nobody voted you the worlds police, and we're tired of your warmongering and sticking your nose where it doesnt belong. F*ckoff and die plx or vote for Ron Paul, kthx
Gracefully yours,
A peaceful citizen of a country you probably couldn't point to on a map.
Most of the world would have nice new fancy plastic minesweepers/minehunters/MCMV? Why the dolphins? Some green PR for recruitment?
Will the dream of working with cute dolphins sign up more smart kids from the malls?
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Except in this case the personnel are dolphins.
Should be simple enough to rig one in ten of your mines with an acoustic package that responds to the presence of a Dolphin sonar frequency fingerprint by detonating. Need to be careful that it doesn't respond to a ship playing back Dolphin frequencies on its active sonar.
From what I understand about the sensitivity of marine mammals to extreme Sonar sound pressure - you wouldn't even need it to detonate - just let out a couple of sonic farts at 140db should deafen the Dolphins permanently. I'm sure the Navy has a nice retirement program for deaf Dolphins. Not like the US Navy could complain - no worse than they do during a typical navel exercise with the active sonar on their submarines and ships.
Always more marine mammals in the sea.
No matter how many dolphin friendly tuna have been trained, dolphins still die by the hundred each year in monofilament drift nets.
If we really want to save the dolphins, we need to give up eating tuna. Despite all the whining from PETA on that subject, there has been minimal effect. The death of brave dolphin fighters in protecting the god-given right to cheap oil will have a similar effect.
Nothing.
Poor bloody dolphins.
They have sex for fun
They also force their ladies to have sexy times through which is rape! The more you know! ===*
second most intelligent creatures on the planet.
“For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons.”
Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
are the second most intelligent creatures on the planet.
Makes me wonder why they allow a third rate species push them around.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
"This is what I say to Iran. Let me be absolutely clear. If you close the Strait of Hormuz you are making the choice to put innocent dolphins in harms way. The American people will hold YOU responsible for their deaths. Think carefully."
Given how intelligent dolphins are, and how much technology and money it would take to replicate the functions and capabilities of a living creature, I don't think your view plays out. You talk about how expensive it would be to train dolphins, but it would be many more times expensive to use hardware instead.
I work at a university, and this is yet another case where the world should look to academia for the solution.
You need a cheap yet intelligent work force that's willing to work long hours and isn't overly picky about working conditions? That's easy - that's what grad students are for. They're easily replaceable too!
#DeleteChrome
I can't say that I oppose all USA military operations: I actually think that what they did (and led other nations to do) in Libya was pretty great. I bet we're going to see a lot more problems in that area (Be it terrorism, hanging on the edge of another civil war or just another dictator grabbing the power after a while) but it was still a joint operation by the international community, intended to help people who wanted to overthrow a dictator.
That said... It's hard to deny that a lot of the problems in the area are also more or less directly caused by the USA. It's a very militaristic nation, with a very large and loud minority(?) of islamophobes and every few years it demonstrates that it still reserves itself the right to attack any nation there for whatever reason it wants to, whether or not they have the support of the international community and whether or not those reasons even make sense.
Whenever any dictator faces an uprising or any terrorist organization faces opposition from the locals, the first thing they say "Those are just agents of USA messing around" and the problem is... that doesn't sound as far-fetched as it should. USA foreign policy has been very effective in painting the nation as an evil empire against which the Arabs should unite. I'm not saying that there wouldn't be terrorist nutjobs if not for USA but I am saying that they have more support and credibility due to actions by USA. As far as I'm aware, the main platform of Ahmadinejad is rallying against USA: He gains support during conflicts like these and loses it when people direct their attention to internal affairs.
And I thought the attack dolphins in that game were silly.
Monkeys are as smart as dolphins. Why doesnt someone teach them to use guns? then we could get people out of harms way. What you would do is first fo all locate your enemy with reconnaisance planes then drop some bananas over them and unleash the monkeys. They would naturally move towards the bannanas. It would probably be hard to teach a monkey to target troops of a particular country, so when they were sent in the friendly troops would have to get out of the way.
If we go to war with Iran, I feel like PETA will not find a very receptive audience to said brouhaha.
Besides, Dolphins are cooler than nukes. They have sex for fun and are the second most intelligent creatures on the planet.
You mean they're second most intelligent after the killer whale? They also do other cool things, like killing for the sake of it.
Geeks are so full of shit that "beating the crap out of them" takes a whole new meaning.
Well, they did use chemical weapons on Iran, so they obviously did have them.
And, the Clinton administration was confident that they were trying to develop more, buy Clinton was too busy with other things to worry about the war that was running throughout the eight years of his administration.
I once saw a tv show where they talked about these military dolphins. I can't recall what the program was, but the outcome wasn't that great. They basically said the dolphins, being such intelligent creatures, sometimes actually lied for the fun of it. Unlike the dogs who simply do what they're told, the dolphins actually played with the rules and would say no mine was there even if they knew they were spotted as being lying.
Maybe the psychological side of the training has evolved since then, or maybe it was just a campaign of misinformation, but if it's actually true, doesn't sound too great for this theory...
No offense, but those dolphins probably cost millions to raise and train
You really don't understand how defense contracting works, do you? They cost millions to raise and train, and the government is billed for billions in "biological mine locator units (BMLU's)".
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Weren't dolphins also deployed in 2003? I recall a story about them being loosed in the sea and then just swimming off to freedom, but as I'm having trouble finding links to any such story maybe it is misremebered.
From the TFA I think this is interesting
Former Admiral KEATING: They are astounding in their ability to detect underwater objects.
NPR's TOM BOWMAN: Dolphins were sent to the Persian Gulf as part of the American invasion force in Iraq.
KEATING: I'd rather not talk about whether we used them or not. They were present in theater.
BOWMAN: But you can't say whether you used them or not.
KEATING: I'd rather not.
This has been bothering me lately. If we evolved from monkeys, why are they so stupid?
When jumping from one tree to another, bigger (and heavier) brain is not an advantage in selection.
[...] during a typical navel exercise [...]
you made my day here
It worked well with a drone, I see no reason why they won't do the same with the dolphins.
After the capture they'll proudly demonstrate to the entire world what american dolphin infidels look like, and then send them for reverse engineering in China and Russia.
And I'm apparently guilty of trying to rationalize with a creationist, without noticing it myself.
Makes me wonder why they allow a third rate species push them around.
Two words: free fish.
Geeks are so full of shit that "beating the crap out of them" takes a whole new meaning.
Given how intelligent dolphins are, and how much technology and money it would take to replicate the functions and capabilities of a living creature, I don't think your view plays out. You talk about how expensive it would be to train dolphins, but it would be many more times expensive to use hardware instead.
We could use members of PETA.
They're all vegans and therefore are skinnier than shit and wouldn't have any sonar profile.
They're all super angry so if we told them that the Iranians were using mines to kill cute cuddly something or anothers, they'd be out there with sledge hammers.
And then if we provided "proof" that the Iranians used dead (by clubbing) baby seals, well that'd be the end of that!
Imagine an army of waifs storming into Iran.
“For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons.”
Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
OK fine, I'm old as dirt.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
Anyone who has ever dealt with animals will tell you most of them can understand when you're pointing at an object
And anyone who has ever dealt with creationists will tell you most of them are no more intelligent than any other primate
--
It's a body of water, not an adjective indicating co-linearity.
Better, cheaper, faster... pick none.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
"Straight" is politically incorrect. It's the "Heterosexual of Hormuz".
(Or "Strait of Hormuz" if you want to be pedantic about it.)
Depends a lot on how you measure intelligence. Chimpanzees and other apes give most
animals decent competition. Some of them have been taught to read, count and occasionally
even invent new words for things people have not taught them.
Also, animals in general tend to be more intelligent than people think. Most people get
surprised when the learn that it's quite possible to train goldfish to perform tricks.
the second most intelligent creatures on the planet
and which species gets the #1 spot? Ants?
I love stacking my barbecues in the shed at the end of summer - you can't beat a bit of grill on grill action.
Grad Students are just the larval form of Interns in the business world.
"The first time I got drunk, I got married. The second time I bought a chimpanzee, after that I stayed sober" Arian Seid
. Also the actions of our government have since long ago not been a representation of the will of our people.
what are you going to do about that ?
Read radical news here
Except the Military has been training and using dolphins for decades, so why waste your investment?. Check this over-the-top story from The Guardian.
I rarely respond to comments. Also, don't ask for clarifications: a brain and Google are faster, believe me!
The "Killer Whale" (or Orca) is in the family Delphinidae, so is actually closer to a dolphin than a whale.
New fancy plastic minesweepers are still easily targeted by missile or gun. Dolphins are harder to find and even if you do find them, you can't be sure that you're looking at one from the US Navy until you actually haul the carcass aboard.
You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
It's not that monkeys and primates are not smart. They just have the (understandable) tendency to rip pieces of flesh of off people who try to make them bring back the ball for the zillionth time.
Sorry, but this is something that affects America and thus America has a right to respond. If nothing else, America has an economic interest in the oil continuing to flow.
Further, they wouldn't be the only one. If Iran closed the strait they would have to invade Oman's waters to do so (as part of it is in there) and thus would defacto declare war on Oman. Then of course there's the fact that UNCLOS provides that it isn't legal to close down the strait just because you want to. Iran would be violating international law.
So while the US would probably have the biggest response, on account of having the largest military and the most near by, they wouldn't be the only ones. The EU would join in, as would other Middle Eastern nations, who have not only an economic interest, but an interest in not letting Iran violate the sovereignty of another nation in that region (remembering that Iran is Persian, not Arab and there's little love lost between those two).
So sorry if you don't like it, but the US is in the right here. Free transit of the ocean is an international right, and the strait is part of that. Iran doesn't get to close it down just because their feelings are hurt, and the US would be legally in the right to respond.
The Obama administration has reportedly warned Iran that closing the Straight would provoke an American response.
I love how it's only the US that can be 'provoked'.
Remember, folks, Iran's apparently nuclear weapon program, while not illegal in any sense, 'provokes' the US. Countries have a perfect right to develop nukes if they want, and cut off inspections that they are only working towards nuclear power, and all it does is get them kicked out of the nuclear weapon's treaty, which means many countries won't sell uranium to them. That's it. It doesn't give anyone the right to attack them, or be 'provoked' into a war with them.
I think people have somehow gotten confused since the Iraq war and think developing nukes are 'illegal', but Iraq signed a surrender in war saying they wouldn't develop nukes, so, if they actually had been doing so, it would be a violation of the surrender and the war would be back on. Iran is not anywhere near the same situation.
However, threatening to bomb Iran in violation of international law is illegal. I don't mean actually bombing Iran, although that's also illegal...just threatening to attack countries over internal matters is actually illegal. As is planning to do so. It's a crime against peace. Somehow, that doesn't count as 'provoking'.
But, if Iran does what is mostly within international law, closing of its own waterways to transit passage of countries threatening it, that is also 'provoking'. Countries are supposed to allow passage of ships through their waters as long as they don't stop, but they can stop that when, for example, people keep threatening to attack them. (And they can certainly keep out warships of countries that keep threatening them!)
To summarize: Iran doing things we don't like that are possibly falling short of their treaty obligations, but are not in any way 'illegal', that's 'provoking' us. The US committing the outright war crime of planning and threatening to bomb them to change their internal behavior, why, it's crazy to think Iran might not like that.
If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
... the ships can use the gaiy instead.
---------
There is inferior bacteria on the interior of your posterior.
Mice, obviously. Does not everyone on slashdot know that?
Hmm, I support People Eating Tasty Animals, but Dolphin - uhhhgh - that feels like eating a dog.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
Is there a dolphin union? What about hazard pay, or death benefits to their families? Do they get the GI bill so they can go to school after their tour of duty?
---- Booth was a patriot ----
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyde_Park_and_Regent's_Park_bombings
IRA attack on a British cavalry unit. Horses instead of dolphins, but I can see where you got that from
I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
140 dB underwater is actually pretty quiet. Sound levels underwater are based on a reference of 1 Pascal at 1 meter. Sound levels in the air were arbitrarily referenced to 20 Pascal at 1 meter to better align it with the sensitivity of the human ear. Water also has a much higher impedance than air. Consequently, to convert underwater dB to to air dB, you have to subtract 62. 140 dB underwater is equivalent to just 78 dB in air. And even whales are able to pump out 180-190 dB.
Unfortunately, PETA and some environmental groups have either failed to understand this or deliberately abused misunderstanding of it to generate hysteria among the public about the effects of underwater sonar and ship traffic on wildlife.
Tastes more like fishy beef.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Parent is well informed on the topic.
What is even worse is how we have US officials framing the idea of Iran blocking their waterway as an act of war! The Irony!! When it is the US involved in cutting off Iranian Oil from getting out as part of the sanctions against Iran exercising its (unpopular) rights -- that is not an act of war...
Me, I think it is a big game of chicken. Convincing the other players who is more crazy, the USA or Iran. All the oil buyers want is stability so siding with the USA is what they think is in their best interests at the moment; while before, they were playing more towards the middle. If Iran can convince them that they are more crazy and can foobar everybody more then it will go back to being less committed. This is not likely to happen; I think. The USA has less to lose compared to everybody else and has power factions pushing heavily to attack Iran more than ever before and this is well known (and its an election year.)
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
Just curious, why are folks spelling it the "Straight of Hormuz" instead of the "Strait." Is that a Queen's English spelling? In the US the correct spelling is definitely "strait," as in: "a narrow channel." Also, the linked articles spell it as "strait."
Not meaning to be a pedant here, I'm actually genuinely curious. Either it's a common spelling error or a cultural standards difference, and I was wondering which.
What an explosive issue...
You know, for the Americans to but the hell out of other countries business and look at their own issues instead.
So let's play your game; the United States withdraws from the Middle East and let's Iran do what it will. One of things happens:
1) Israel decides to go it alone and attempt to destroy/delay the Iranian nuclear program. Iran retaliates through it's terrorist proxies and the global price of oil skyrockets.
2) Israel uncharacteristically shows restraint; Iran goes nuclear. Now the Saudi's feel compelled to develop their own nukes. They do so. Tensions rise, nerves fray and someone on either side makes a tiny mistake that spirals out of control. The global price of oil skyrockets.
You are also overlooking the fact that Europe is heavily invested in preventing the Iranians from going nuclear. Much of Europe is already within reach of Iran's missile technology. When Iran figures out how to mate a nuclear weapon to a ballistic missile Europe will be living under the threat of nuclear attack for the first time since the end of the Cold War.
One last point: Consider who is reliant on oil from the Middle East. Hint: It's not the United States; we meet the vast majority of our energy needs from Western Hemisphere sources. China on the other hand is almost wholly dependent on Middle Eastern oil. If the United States decides to withdraw from that region do you think they are going to stand idly by or might they be inclined to step into our role as a regional stabilizer? Now ask yourself if you want a Chinese military presence in that part of the world.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Of course we knew that Iraq had chemical weapons; we sold them to Iraq.
Clinton was too busy with other things to worry about the war that was running throughout the eight years of his administration.
What war was this? Iran/Iraq was so 80s!
Transit through the straits of Hormuz is allowed through international law, specifically the transit passage clause (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transit_passage). If Iran were to close the strait it would be in violation of international law.
Even disregarding that, Oman also has territorial waters in the Straits and closing them to Omani ships would be an act of war. It just so happens that Oman is a US ally. If that's not a casus belli I don't know what is.
Really? Too expensive to make sonars that can detect mines?
Come on man, don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel.
With Directed Energy Sea Mammals —even if thef Orbiting Pelican Relay Mirror (OPRM) is no longer needed to whack Osama.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Iraq_during_the_Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_war#Chemical_and_Biological_exports
Emphasis added.
Because clearing mines is easy. Finding mines is very difficult. The use of mammals for mine counter-measures is actually not particularly popular with "green" environmentalist minded set of society.
If you understand that it is saying the US allowed the export of commercial equipment that could be used to make either commercial goods or war material, i.e. - dual use. Most modern chemical equipment is like that as modern war gasses, that is nerve gas, were originally developed in the search for new insecticides. Selling Iraq a plant to make modern pesticides to keep their figs and dates free of bugs would be about the same as selling them a nerve gas plant.
The US did not supply Iraq with chemical weapons, the Iraqis made their own. It isn't that hard.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
"They're easily replaceable too!"
That, and they don't evoke sympathy like mechanical hardware when it breaks.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
Hell yeah! China, fuck yeah! I'll take China over the US any day. I'm in Malaysia, much closer to China than to the US, so I didn't say that lightly. Throughout China's 4000 years of history, they have never concerned themselves outside their sphere of influence. Overall, China had a positive impact on the region, increasing trade and stopping belligerent smaller nations from fighting too much. In Asia, the Chinese are considered to be very pragmatic, hard working and favours making a profit over glorious but costly nationalistic victories. The US is not benign. It is doing exactly what other expansionist empires did, namely gunboat diplomacy. At least the British always had profit in mind when they slaughtered entire villages. You just do it because you can. In fact, looking at where your politics are heading (SOPA, PATRIOT et al.), I say the US is metastasising into a fascist police-state oligarchy. Being the sole superpower caused this to your country. In my opinion, Americans should welcome China and other emerging superpowers to keep your own government in check. So yeah, I for one welcome our friendly Chinese overlords.
Microsoft has been secretly training office workers for decades. This is why minesweeper is in the default install since Windows 3.1.
It's "strait of Hormuz", not "straight of Hormuz"
Y'know, not to suggest anything radical or anything, but maybe slashdot should pursue the idea of hiring an editor who can, you know... edit.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Note: It should be Strait of Hormuz, not "Straight."
Everybody knows that the US is just waiting for a reason to strike at Iran, and an Iranian naval blockade of the Strait of Hormuz is just such a reason.
Oh, and if this happens I hope the US uses bases in Israel to launch attacks from - then the Iranians are likely to attack Israel which then can proceed to obliterate Tehran and the nuclear testing sites, the latter using ultra-dirty bombs. This way the areas can be polluted with radioactivity to such a degree that it will be inaccessible for centuries, thus wiping the slate and forcing the Iranians to start over with their nuclear (bomb) program.
Iran cannot possible win - or even survive - such a conflict so one has to wonder why they are so eager to provoke one. Maybe they are completely insane and believe that "God will protect them" and similar nonsense?
"For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." -- H.L. Mencken (1880-1956) --
Besides, Dolphins are cooler than nukes. They have sex for fun and are the second most intelligent creatures on the planet.
Er, so what's the first?
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Nobody's talking about Johnny Mnemonic? I like Jones.