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June 6 Is World IPv6 Day 2012: This Time For Keeps

An anonymous reader writes "On 8 June 2011 many companies (big and small) enabled IPv6 to their main web sites by published AAAA records; 24 hours later, almost all of them disabled it after the test was done. This year, on June 6th, many of those same companies (Google, Bing, Facebook) will be enabling IPv6 again, but this time there won't be any going back. In addition to content providers, several ISPs are also participating: Comcast, AT&T, XS4ALL, KDDI, and others. CDNs Akamai and Limelight are on board, as well as network equipment manufacturers Cisco and D-Link. Is the chicken-and-egg problem of IPv6 finally, slowly coming to an end?"

463 comments

  1. I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by NotQuiteReal · · Score: 1, Funny

    Especially at home. Who's with me?

    --
    This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
    1. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by penguinstorm · · Score: 2

      Viva la revoluzione, my friend but seriously...are you going to hold out forever?

      --
      Skot Nelson music is my saviour / i was maimed by rock and roll
    2. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by DesScorp · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Especially at home. Who's with me?

      Pretty much everyone.

      --
      Life is hard, and the world is cruel
    3. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by GPLHost-Thomas · · Score: 2

      Nobody asked you to switch your home ADSL/cable to ipv6, but to have a dual stack and support both. I'd like the "IPv6 is useless" argument to simply stop. There's no reason for saying that. IPv6 is just another cyber space, there's nothing fancy, new, with it, it should be commonly accepted as something we MUST have, right now.

      Frankly, in these days and ages, if you're an ISP and don't have v6 support, you're just a ... (replace the dots with your favorite insult). I'd understand that you might have a very old home router at home that wouldn't support it though, but if ISPs were doing their jobs correctly, this should be the last piece of equipment that would be problematic, not your ISP's.

    4. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by smash · · Score: 1

      TO be fair, the ISP world runs on very low margins, and until the available IPv4 address space the ISP already owns becomes short (i.e., cost to obtain more IPs exceeds cost to implement IPv6) then there is simply zero business case to be amongst the early adopters who will be first to run into issues.

      My home ISP (internode) runs IPv6 native on their ADSL2 service, but they're an exception rather than the rule.

      I'm as keen as anyone to run IPv6 everywhere (LAN/WAN design and implementation is my day job), but I can certainly see why it hasn't been rolled out everywhere yet.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    5. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by GPLHost-Thomas · · Score: 3, Insightful

      there is simply zero business case to be amongst the early adopters

      That sentence is simply wrong. Maybe not a lot, but you can't say zero. Some customers might choose an ISP because of the v6 support, or rather, some might not use an ISP because he doesn't support v6 (and if you want it another way: IPv6 dual stack is a very valid selling point).

      See companies like Hurricane Electric, a large part of their current success has been IPv6 support. That story alone shows that it really is possible to make more money because you do support v6 while others don't. Now soon, customers will soon start to run away if you don't have v6. That day might well be the next 6th of June!

    6. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Randle_Revar · · Score: 1

      I had dual stack on for a while, I haven't set the tunnel back up since I moved, but I will before that date. And maybe Comcast will let me get native IPv6 at that time.

    7. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by slimjim8094 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Me too! Instead, I did it on a random day where I was bored, about 4 years ago. Took about 2 hours and I haven't thought about it since.

      Oh, did you mean "I'm not going to use IPv6"?

      --
      I have developed a truly marvelous proof of this comment, which this signature is too narrow to contain.
    8. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by afabbro · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There's no reason for saying that. IPv6 is just another cyber space, there's nothing fancy, new, with it, it should be commonly accepted as something we MUST have, right now.

      Except that it's not. There are billions of addresses - entire A blocks - locked up in early-adopter organizations that could be made available. For example, the US Post Office doesn't really need it's own A block. Nor do most organizations who own them. And B blocks? Thousands are unneeded. My old university has a B block and it's ridiculous...it's all behind a firewall except for a few numbers anyway. For most orgs, it's just that the money that these big blocks could be sold for doesn't exceed the cost of renumbering to 10.x internally. It will someday soon.

      We're years away from ipv4 exhaustion.

      --
      Advice: on VPS providers
    9. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by lactose99 · · Score: 1

      already done my friend

      --
      Fully licensed blockchain psychiatrist
    10. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by lactose99 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It would be more constructive to use whatever energy needed to pressure legacy IPv4 holders to give-up their space to start planning a move to v6 or at least a dual-stack architecture. This is like people complaining there's still momentum left in the cassette tape when CDs have been around for years. Postponing the inevitable doesn't stop the inevitable from happening.

      --
      Fully licensed blockchain psychiatrist
    11. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Nursie · · Score: 5, Funny

      Viva la revoluzione, my friend but seriously...are you going to hold out forever?

      Hell Yes!

      If enough of us do it, those profiteering assholes at Big Internet$ will be forced to deal with us on our terms and open up all that extra space they're holding out on.

      What extra space you say? Ever heard of a number greater than 255?

      It's a conspiracy I tell you. They're all in it! Google, Micro$oft, IBM, The Queen, the Vatican, the Getty's, the Rothchild's and Colonel Sanders before he went tits up! They're trying to keep our eyes shut to the truth!

      Wake up! We have all the IPv4 addresses we need! Why at home all my machiens in the 478.921.357.* range!

    12. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by gmhowell · · Score: 5, Funny

      I see you missed the Freemasons. Your oversight is why they will continue to screw you over.

      --
      Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
    13. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by RoLi · · Score: 2, Interesting

      are you going to hold out forever?

      Yes, I'll be "holding out" with over 99% of users out there.

      People, there will never be a IPv6 transition, period.

      The crazy idea of the IPv6-designers was to expect all admins to request and configure new addresses - completely utopian.

      Yes, NAT is not pretty. Yes, IPv6 would allow for a much cleaner network. But, no, that is not enough to push anybody to IPv6. There are no IPv6-ONLY services, therefore no benefit of running IPv6 on a client (regardless of dualstack). There are also no IPv6-ONLY clients, therefore no benefit of running IPv6 on a server (regardless of dualstack).

      The alternative to IPv6 to work around the problem with NAT. And in fact that is the only way, because setting up IPv6 is useless because less than 1% use it while setting up a NAT-based solution, no matter how ugly, will get used and will get you some return of investment. And you know what? Because such NAT-based solutions are created everyday right now, they make IPv4 even more entrenched and any IPv6-transition even more complicated than it would have been before.

      Oh, and on a private network, which is behind a NAT anyway, there is even less reason for IPv6 - Yes, I do have enough 10.0.0.0 addresses for my home network.

    14. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by mcrbids · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Sure, it *sounds* easy, but it's not.

      My wireless router does not support IPV6, and it wasn't created in the stone age, a Linksys WRT54G2. (3ish years old) Sure, it was cheap, but it's also hard to justify spending more to replace reliably working equipment. A "nice" router that supports IPV6 with grace will probably cost $50 or more.

      My Comcast modem is my own. I bought it for $20 because I didn't want to pay $7/month for the DOCSIS 3.0 modem. But because it's a DOCSIS 2.0 Modem, IPV6 support is limited. A DOCSIS 3.0 modem that supports IPV6 better costs around $100.

      So the real cost for me of IPV6 is already floating somewhere between $150 to $200, about what I pay for 2 YEARS of Netflix. That is only for getting the ability to have an IPV6 address to my home. That's without setting up the Xbox, Wii, or PS3 with IPV6. (Can you do it?) Let alone the Mac, the several PC laptops, my Linux workstation, or the MagicJack Plus that I use for my home phone "land line".

      What about our smart phones? Will Android 2.3.x use IPV6? 'what about Android 2.2 on my wife's phone, or 2.1? What about the $90 android tablet my wife bought at Rite aid? For all of these, I have no idea, which means likely not.

      What about the (awesome!) SIP app I use on my smartphone to call into the corporate phone server from my home network? Will it work with low latency over IPV6 to my corporate SIP server running IPV4, with traffic shaping that works as well as it does now with my cheap IPV4 modem? Somehow, I have my doubts...

      Switching to IPV6 is easy, as long as you don't actually do it for real. As soon as you start trying to live it, use it everyday, make it part of your everyday life, well, things get complicated quickly. This is going to take a while to sort out, you know?

      --
      I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
    15. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by mcavic · · Score: 1

      Not exactly. CD's have many visible advantages over cassettes.

    16. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by FireFury03 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      There are no IPv6-ONLY services

      This is incorrect. There are a number of IPv6-only services, especially in the asian markets, where IPv6 has been available to clients for a goodly number of years.

      The alternative to IPv6 to work around the problem with NAT.

      This isn't an alternative. NAT expands tha number of clients that can use the internet, but is largely useless on the server side. APNIC has run out of addresses, RIPE is going to run out this summer, at some point its going to become impossible for datacentres to get new IPv4 addresses, and at that point anyone runing servers is going to start having problems. They will start by shoving services behind proxy servers, etc. to reduce the number of IPv4 addresses that need to be exposed, but this only goes so far. Some services can't be placed behind proxies, running services on non-standard ports is almost as problematic as running them on IPv6 (a large proportion of customers are behind restrictive firewalls). At some point, IPv4-only clients are going to become second class citizens - they will be able to access the internet, but some services will be unavailable to them. Yes, it will take many years, but it will slowly happen.

      Oh, and on a private network, which is behind a NAT anyway, there is even less reason for IPv6 - Yes, I do have enough 10.0.0.0 addresses for my home network.

      For a *home network* you're correct. For the generic case of a *private network* you're wrong. I'm informed that Virgin Media are actually very interested in rolling out IPv6 because there aren't enough RFC1918 addresses for device management. I'm sure that they *could* bodge their network to make it work with the restricted number of addresses, but its probably easier in the long run to just bite the bullet and roll out IPv6 (and on a truely private network this is easier because everything is under your control).

    17. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by FireFury03 · · Score: 5, Informative

      There are billions of addresses - entire A blocks - locked up in early-adopter organizations that could be made available.

      Given that 2^32=4.3 billion, you're wrong. There are a few million addresses locked up in old class A networks. If you bother to look at the consumption rate you'd realise that even if all of these addresses were returned to the pool they would buy a few weeks and then we'd be right back where we started. In short, recovering those addresses is going to be a lot of effort, will not solve the problem and will only postpone it for a very short length of time.

      We're years away from ipv4 exhaustion.

      IANA ran out of addresses at the start of last year. APNIC also ran out of addresses in the first half of last year. RIPE is going to run out of addresses this summer. We are *not* a significant number of years away from exhaustion. We've got maybe 3 years until there are no more IPv4 addresses left to allocate by any RIR. Reclaiming the legacy blocks to buy a few more weeks doesn't make sense.

    18. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      This isn't an alternative. NAT expands tha number of clients that can use the internet, but is largely useless on the server side.

      No, actually it's not "useless". There are a shitload of server clusters which run on a single public-facing IP address, but host many, many different sites. How do they perform this "magic"? Why, their load-balancers use this concept called "Network Address Translation" to map the internal, local IP address of each server to the same publicly routable ipv4 address. This is handy because if any specific server has to drop out of the cluster, another server can join and nobody on the outside will ever know.

      NAT is a tool. It has some good uses, but there are people who try to use it for the wrong reasons so it gets a bad rap. Yes, there are issues running too many different services through a NAT Firewall. No, it's not a magic bullet to solve IPv4 shortages. None of that changes the FACT that the vast majority of regular home internet users will never, ever have any issues with NAT. And the ones who do have issues, are looking at a simple case of setting up port forwarding.

      For a *home network* you're correct. For the generic case of a *private network* you're wrong. I'm informed that Virgin Media are actually very interested in rolling out IPv6 because there aren't enough RFC1918 addresses for device management.

      Bullshit.

      10.0.0.0/8 16,777,216
      172.16.0.0/12 1,048,576
      192.168.0.0/16 65,536

      Total: 17,891,328

      So they are claiming that they have nearly 18 million unique devices to manage? And that all 18 million have to be directly route-able between each other, so that segmenting the network is not possible?

      Sounds like what Virgin Media needs to do in reality, is hire someone competent to administer their network and come up with some better policies.

    19. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by FireFury03 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So the real cost for me of IPV6 is already floating somewhere between $150 to $200

      But in 10 years' time, after the magic smoke has escaped from all that hardware, you'll have upgraded to kit that supports IPv6.

      People saying "I'm never going to upgrade to IPv6" come across the same as people saying "I'm never going to upgrade from IE6" - in short, idiots. And in a few years time, like IE6 users now, they will probably be idiots who can't use some big services.

      Let alone the Mac, the several PC laptops, my Linux workstation

      IPv6 in OS X, Linux and any Windows newer than XP pretty much Just Works with no configuration needed. You'd have to go out of your way to disable it.

      MagicJack Plus that I use for my home phone "land line".

      There will be legacy hardware that doesn't supprt IPv6 for some time, but in this restricted case is it a problem? I presume the MagicJack is basically an FXSSIP gateway, so whether you need IPv6 here depends on whether the SIP gateway it is connecting to has a v4 address. No one is saying you need to remove IPv4 from your network entirely.

      What about our smart phones? Will Android 2.3.x use IPV6? 'what about Android 2.2 on my wife's phone, or 2.1? What about the $90 android tablet my wife bought at Rite aid? For all of these, I have no idea, which means likely not.

      Android has supported IPv6 since Android 2.0.

      What about the (awesome!) SIP app I use on my smartphone to call into the corporate phone server from my home network? Will it work with low latency over IPV6 to my corporate SIP server running IPV4

      No, an IPv6-only device isn't going to be able to talk to an IPv4-only server (unless it uses a NAT64 gateway to do so). IPv4 is not going to suddenly disappear, dual-stacked clients are the norm, and as IPv4 addresses become harder to get hold of, ISPs will use carrier grade NAT to provision IPv4 to their clients. Talking to IPv4-only servers will still happen over IPv4.

      Address exhaustion is largely a problem for servers, where NAT isn't really feasible. For many years to come, clients will have (NATted) IPv4 and (unNATted) IPv6 concurrently. Which is why it makes no sense when ISPs say "we don't need IPv6 because *we* have plenty of spare IPv4 addresses" - it doesn't matter if you have a big stack of spare IPv4 addresses if the people who operate the servers that your customers connect to don't.

      What *should* have happened, is the telecoms regulators should have mandated that ISPs implement IPv6 support and sell IPv6 capable routers a good number of years ago since it was clear they were going to wait until crunch-time before bothering to do so without regulatory pressure. If that had happened, most end users would already have IPv6 capable internet connections and hardware.

    20. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by RoLi · · Score: 0

      There are no IPv6-ONLY services

      This is incorrect. There are a number of IPv6-only services, especially in the asian markets, where IPv6 has been available to clients for a goodly number of years.

      One would think that with all that IPv6-propaganda, that such IPv6-only (please remember the "only"-part here) services would be all over the airwaves.

      Surely you can name a couple of those?

      The alternative to IPv6 to work around the problem with NAT.

      This isn't an alternative. NAT expands tha number of clients that can use the internet, but is largely useless on the server side. APNIC has run out of addresses, RIPE is going to run out this summer, at some point its going to become impossible for datacentres to get new IPv4 addresses, and at that point anyone runing servers is going to start having problems. They will start by shoving services behind proxy servers, etc. to reduce the number of IPv4 addresses that need to be exposed, but this only goes so far. Some services can't be placed behind proxies, running services on non-standard ports is almost as problematic as running them on IPv6 (a large proportion of customers are behind restrictive firewalls). At some point, IPv4-only clients are going to become second class citizens - they will be able to access the internet, but some services will be unavailable to them. Yes, it will take many years, but it will slowly happen.

      Your naivety seems to be as large as those of the IPv6-designers.

      People are not as stupid as you may believe. They will not just take an IPv6 address and leave out 99% of their customers and wait years/decades until IPv6 happens. No, they will in some way get an IPv4 address, even if (gasp, oh noes) that involves paying some modest fee (which will be probably still be lower than what a domain costs today) or they will work around the problem using NAT. No matter how ugly it's going to be, after some time the bugs are ironed out and it will work (unlike IPv6, which even Google can get to work on all their services).

      So you are fully correct when you say that many people are "going to start having problems", but unfortunately IPv6 is not a solution to the problems, because shutting out 99% of users is not a solution, period.

      In other words, even the ugliest NAT-workaround is BETTER than IPv6, because IPv6 is only for less than 1% of users.

      Yes, in real life IPv4 is better, because it does what you want (reach all users), while IPv6 is worse because even though it may be architecturally cleaner it is useless for real-world services.

      Oh, and on a private network, which is behind a NAT anyway, there is even less reason for IPv6 - Yes, I do have enough 10.0.0.0 addresses for my home network.

      For a *home network* you're correct. For the generic case of a *private network* you're wrong. I'm informed that Virgin Media are actually very interested in rolling out IPv6 because there aren't enough RFC1918 addresses for device management. I'm sure that they *could* bodge their network to make it work with the restricted number of addresses, but its probably easier in the long run to just bite the bullet and roll out IPv6 (and on a truely private network this is easier because everything is under your control).

      Virgin Media needs millions of internal IP-addresses in a single company-wide network that must not be segmented? What for?

      My guess is that the IP-department (which often breed the typical we-must-upgrade-everything-to-the-latest-verstion-number nerds) have convinced the pointy-haired-bosses there that they absolutely must have IPv6 if only to have something to do.

      I've worked for an international company with branches in Europe, Africa and China - the larger a company is, the more it resembles a Dilbert-cartoon.

    21. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Pi1grim · · Score: 1

      There's an old game, some of IT admins like to play. It involves calling any of the ISP and asking when they would provide IPv6 connectivity for large businesses. And after hearing the answer "not yet" you reply with "OK, we'll have to keep looking then".

    22. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by RoLi · · Score: 0

      Sorry, should of course be the "IT-department", not "IP-department"...

    23. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Pi1grim · · Score: 1

      As does IPv6. Face it, the IPv6 brings back the basic principle of the internet: direct connectivity. No more NATs (ofcourse unless there is an idiot out there, that thinks that NAT makes everything secure), no more STUN servers and other workarounds for piercing NATs. We would finally be able to use internet to it's fullest: VOIP (i'm well aware of Skype and it's state-of-the-art NAT traversal and piercing techniques, but I want a free and open source technology.)

    24. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by HuguesT · · Score: 2

      From memory early IP adopters like many Ivy League universities have a A domain. E.g MIT owns the 18.x.x.x domain. I doubt MIT requires 16 millions of IP addresses.

      On the other hand, they probably would have to reengineer their network architecture if they had to free a good chunk of their 18.x subnets. Which would be cheaper? Converting to ipv6 or hang on to part of their old A domain ?

      Also there is work to do in the DNS servers code so that A block can be cut up. This is not a simple as it seems.

    25. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by neokushan · · Score: 3, Informative

      I don't really want to get into this debate, but Virgin probably manages more devices than you give them credit for. Every single CPE has a 10.x.x.x address, as does every CMTS as well as a bunch of other stuff. 16million devices? Probably not, they only have about 4million customers, but they do manage a lot of devices.

      Anyway, the reason I comment is because they are looking to roll out IPv6 by the end of the year, at least on the business side, which is where it'll matter most first.

      --
      +1 IDisagreeSoHeMustBeATrollOrAnAstroturferOrAShill
    26. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      ISPs use 10.x addresses to manage their end user devices. Comcast has already exceeded 16 million users. They already have to kludge together a solution just to manage their devices.

      Sorry, but your thinking is outdated and shows a lack of understanding of the true infrastructure of the Internet as a whole. As you have already been told, there are parts of the world today who turn on their devices and don't get a public IPv4 address. Not to mention, this entire article is about key services and websites turning on IPv6 in recognition of the future.

      I'm guessing you never lived in a flat Internet. I have. This bullshit we've had to suffer with for a couple decades is actually pretty horrible. When we return to a flat internet, we will be able to video conference from one PC directly to another, anywhere in the world.

      It's the future, and in a sense, returning to the past.

    27. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by u38cg · · Score: 2

      Dude, A-class networks are gettng swallowed up in *months*. You're proposing to bail out the Titanic with a bucket.

      --
      [FUCK BETA]
    28. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Bert64 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      4 million customers = at least 4 million customer routers...
      Plus the TV set top boxes which also have IP for on demand tv and such...
      Plus their own infrastructure devices...
      Plus wastage due to subnetting (network address, broadcast etc)...
      Imagine trying to segment a network of that size, and then trying to keep track of what was in which segment etc... Would be quite a nightmare.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    29. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Tim4444 · · Score: 1

      Which would be cheaper?

      This smells a little bit like Y2K in that the real problem was that noone wanted to pay to find and fix the remaining incompatible code. From my vantage point it appears that it is still cheaper for MIT to do nothing. I wonder if there's a reasonable price point at which it would be worth their while to free up some address space to sell. Of course, that might involve asking cantankerous professors to change some static ip's that they've cherished for years. I suppose I'll be ice skating on an imaginary frozen lake of fire before that happens. By contrast, the only revenue stream I can think of that would help offset the cost of going to IPv6 is grant money *rolls eyes*.

      Disclaimer: my only experience with IPv6 was on a Linux client machine. For me, it meant horribly slow web browsing as many requests involved waiting for IPv6 to timeout before if would fall back and try IPv4. I opted for lazy and just disabled IPv6 rather than go looking for a solution.

    30. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Indeed IPv6 support is what drove me to the ISP i currently use, and what influenced the purchase of my current router...

      Similarly, we are looking to replace our connection at work with another one simply because the current provider does not support ipv6 and have no plans to.

      I'm also aware of several places who dropped ip transit from cogent because they don't provide full ipv6 connectivity (they refuse to peer with hurricane electric, who are the biggest ipv6 provider and thus cogent customers cant access something like 30% of all v6 sites)...

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    31. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by rb12345 · · Score: 2

      For a *home network* you're correct. For the generic case of a *private network* you're wrong. I'm informed that Virgin Media are actually very interested in rolling out IPv6 because there aren't enough RFC1918 addresses for device management. I'm sure that they *could* bodge their network to make it work with the restricted number of addresses, but its probably easier in the long run to just bite the bullet and roll out IPv6 (and on a truely private network this is easier because everything is under your control).

      I didn't know Virgin Media had that problem yet, but it is the reason Comcast are doing their transition work, despite ARIN having a lot less pressure on their address pool compared to RIPE. If Virgin are getting close to the limit of a /8 (modems+TV boxes+head end?), they have more incentives to start switching soon. I wonder if this is part of the reason for the planned speed doubling - replacing the modems for extra speed is easier to explain to the public (via DOCSIS 3, I expect), but getting IPv6 support as a nice "side-effect". Plus, as long as no one advertises it, there's less pressure if it doesn't work, too!

    32. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Nursie · · Score: 1

      There are a few million addresses locked up in old class A networks. If you bother to look at the consumption rate you'd realise that even if all of these addresses were returned to the pool they would buy a few weeks and then we'd be right back where we started.

      I believe the IPv6 gospel, I really do, it would be lovely not to have this hanging over our heads... BUT I'm pretty sure I've been hearing that refrain for several years now.

    33. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by davew · · Score: 1

      We're years away from ipv4 exhaustion.

      How many years? Happily, the data for consumption is publicly available, so I did some calculations a while back. Maybe you've run them more recently, I did them a couple of years ago, so maybe you have a more accurate answer. But what I got was this...

      ...the run rate is such that if we reclaim ALL IPv4 address space, including yours and mine that we're using right now, we still run out in 2019.

      I'm not sure that lengthy and expensive reclamation projects really buy us a lot when we outrun two internets' worth of addresses within a decade.

    34. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's because it's *TRUE*.

    35. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      This isn't an alternative. NAT expands tha number of clients that can use the internet, but is largely useless on the server side

      So if the ISP has any sense they find their least lucrative customers (e.g. home lusers on the bottom plan) and take away their public IP addresses (putting them behind an ISP level NAT). It won't be pretty but that is the corner that we are painted into. ISPs that only do hosting will be SOL of course and will have to resort to trying to buy IPs off some other provider, probablly at very high cost.

      Plus in a few years with the phasing out of windows XP it will become feasible to use name based virtual hosting with SSL on a large scale thus considerably reducing the need for IPs for webhosting.

      It's going to be messy but i'd expect most clients to have access to connect outbound to the v4 internet and most services to be available on the v4 internet for MANY years to come.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    36. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Switching to IPV6 is easy, as long as you don't actually do it for real.

      Nobody has to switch - remaining IPv4 addresses are fine and will work for a long time to come. There are certainly enough IPv4 to for the servers, too.

      But new clients will have to be either IPv6 or NAT sooner than later. Some may choose NAT, but it is a painful route, especially if you use two layers of NAT. Going IPv6 is actually a lot easier, but it requires the servers to support IPv6.

      And that's what this is about: make the servers support IPv6 (dual stack) without breaking existing customers. It is absolutely the right thing to do.

    37. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here are my thoughts.

      Legacy devices are an issue. They are an issue, and will remain an issue. It's not just having money to replace legacy devices, it's also the time that would be spent getting new devices to work. For companies, maybe not a big deal? But for consumers, yeah, it's a big deal, since money isn't free.

      Letting IPv4 and IPv6 live side-by-side is a good thing. I figure the main problem would be mobile devices, which I assume is the fastest growing. They all have their own IP address, right? If that IP address could be IPv6, then that'd free up more IPv4 for those who are stuck with legacy devices.

      I have a "dumb" phone. Nokia 6030. I don't use the web stuff, except rarely. I don't know if it can be upgraded to IPv6. For me, it doesn't matter. But as more and more cell phones are made, I seriously hope they are IPv6 compatible. And the more websites who opt to offer an IPv6 version of their site (in addition to IPv4), the better.

      Oh, and for us IE6 users, there are ways around getting to blocked sites. It's called changing the user agent and/or version reply in the registry. You know, for such blocked sites such as www.myspace.com or www.target.com.

    38. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      And the ones who do have issues, are looking at a simple case of setting up port forwarding.

      Which works fine if the users in question have control of the NAT but as the IP shortage bites an increasing number of users are going to find themselves pushed behind NATs (whether conventional V4, NAT64 or DS-lite) that they do not control. Still while ISP level NAT won't be pretty but we don't have a lot of other options. V4 addresses have pretty much run out and the vast majority of the internet is still v4 only.

      The only real question is what proportion of ISPs will be enlightened enough to deploy IPv6 at the same time they deploy some variant of V4 nat.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    39. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Can you not reflash that linksys with dd-wrt or openwrt?

      DOCSIS 2.0 is an outdated technology that sooner or later will be phased out (the presence of such devices on an otherwise docsis 3.0 network reduces overall efficiency).... You can expect comcast to disable docsis 1/2 support sooner or later...
      On the other hand its a dumb modem not a router, it forwards your traffic at layer 2 and doesn't need to support ipv6 (docsis 3 devices support ipv6 for management purposes because large isps like comcast run out of 10.x addresses)... What needs v6 support is whatever device you currently use as a nat box.

      Not sure about xbox/wii/ps3...

      If your router is configured for autoconf then your mac will by default pick up an address...
      Same for your PC laptops and workstation if they're running windows vista or later, or any semi modern linux.
      Android 2.1 certainly does support ipv6 as do all newer versions..

      SIP will work much better without NAT, providing the other end actually bothers to support it.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    40. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by grumbel · · Score: 1

      There are a shitload of server clusters which run on a single public-facing IP address,

      The problem that you need to solve isn't hiding multiple servers behind a single IP, but making them visible behind a single IP. NAT can't do that. The only way to do that would be via protocol specific hacks, i.e. HTTP Vhost. It of course can be done, but you end up having to reinvent an address scheme with every new protocol.

    41. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by grumbel · · Score: 3, Informative

      I'd understand that you might have a very old home router at home that wouldn't support it though,

      That is blandly false. Even many brand new routers have zero IPv6 support. Lack of IPv6 support in home routers is essentially one of the biggest issue of an IPv6 transition, right next to ISPs not providing IPv6 to their customers in the first place.

    42. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      Except that it's not. There are billions of addresses - entire A blocks - locked up in early-adopter organizations that could be made available

      By my count there are

      42 /8 blocks (about 700 million addresses) allocated directly to early adoptor organisations (some of which are more heavilly utilised than others)
      3 /8 blocks allocated to special purposes ( private use, local identification and local loopback)
      16 /8 bocks allocated to multicast
      16 /8 blocks that are unusable because it was never defined whether they should be unicast, multicast or something else and at least one major OS won't accept them.

      The rest of the /8 blocks are subdivided into allocations of various sizes

      We're years away from ipv4 exhaustion.

      It really depends what it meant by "exhaustion". If it means the point at which you can no longer get addresses at any price then that will probablly never come. OTOH I would expect the point at which ISPs can't justify including a public v4 IP at no extra charge with their normal internet packages to come pretty soon.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    43. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      From my vantage point it appears that it is still cheaper for MIT to do nothing

      Indeed and that is really the rub with both IPv6 and improving efficiency of IPv4 allocations (which are somewhat related in that there are v6 based technologies that can be used to assist in using v4 addresses more efficeiently). Unless you are in immediate danger of running out of IPs or someone is offering you a lot of money to buy your IPs it's probablly more economical not to do anything.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    44. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Exactly. Granted, on my own internal network I might not bother with setting up IPV6, and instead do the equivalent of a NAT for my internal servers to give them an IPV4 address and only have my border router deal with IPV6. This is probably how it's going to work at first, and that's okay; it's getting the transition done, and for the most part everything is going to work that way. (Open holes in your own damned firewalls internally for redirects.) Eventually -- which probably means "the next version of Windows" given how IT seems to work these days -- IPV6 will be phased in even internally. I don't think IPV4 is totally going to go away any time soon because, at the very least, people are going to still use it for internal routing a lot because that's what they can do in their sleep or when drunk.

      We have to either transition to IPV6, or come up with some protocol layer that sits on top of IPV4 to give additional addressing capability. Given the alternatives, the latter is utterly stupid.

      That said, I'd recommend that when this starts to take off people invest craploads of money into Cisco (CSCO) stock. Just sayin'.

    45. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Tim4444 · · Score: 1

      improving efficiency of IPv4 allocations

      I first read that as "improving efficiency of IPv4" where I think similar problems apply.

    46. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by SuricouRaven · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Another question is how many will realise that NAT makes it impossible for p2p file sharing users to seed, and that perhaps allowing this 'problem' to continue could be to their advantage.

    47. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by SuricouRaven · · Score: 2

      NAT is also the nemesis of PC multiplayer gamers. Less so on consoles, where users aren't expected to wish to host their own private servers for friends.

    48. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      *GASP* You shouldnt talk about the Penaverate in an open forum like this.

    49. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by arkhan_jg · · Score: 2

      Oh, and on a private network, which is behind a NAT anyway, there is even less reason for IPv6 - Yes, I do have enough 10.0.0.0 addresses for my home network.

      Yes, but what when your ISP no longer has any net-routable IPv4 address to give to your router? We're getting closer and closer to that day. On some asian mobile networks, it's already happened.

      They can
      a) buy new equipment to handle carrier-grade NAT, so you end up double-NAT'd on your home network. And what happens when they run out of real IPs again because they're hitting port total limits?

      b) replace what remains of their infrastructure that doesn't support IPv6, and start handing out IPv6 addresses blocks to new customers, with an IPv6-4 gateway for legacy websites.

      With step a, you largely break VOIP, video conferencing, IM client direct connection, xbox live, steam gaming; any kind of peer-to-peer networking. Cos since you don't control the upstream NAT, no uPnP port-opening for you. Try to have too many customers double-NAT'd behind a single routable address, and you're going to start hitting port-conflicts just for normal web-browsing.

      NAT is a hack. Double (carrier grade) NAT is an even bigger hack.

      Step B - handing out IPv6 addresses with a 6-4 gateway is basically inevitable at this point. It makes sense to deploy IPv6 to end-users while they still have a large enough pool of IPv4 addresses so they can dual stack. There are no more IPv4 addresses to hand out world-wide. The national registries will have handed them all out to ISPs by the end of this year. Any new ISP, or any growth after that will HAVE to be IPv6.

      OK, carrier-grade NAT will buy you a bit of time for end-users, but server hosts won't be able to do that. They're going to have to start going IPv6 only as there won't be the IPv4 addresses to give them; again, this is already happening in asia. And when servers you want to visit are only IPv6, you don't want to be stuck behind a double-NAT'd network, as you won't even be able to setup your own IPv6 tunnel - they will be entirely unaccessible without some form of dual-stack proxy.

      carrier grade NAT will be slow, and crippled and subject to your ISP having a decent proxy. They can't even provide decent DNS servers!

      IPv6 works, it's available now. The only thing you need to do is get your ISP to use it instead of carrier grade NAT; and if they won't, switch to one that will. Or the next few years are going to see your 'net connection get progressively more and more broken.

      --
      Remember kids, it's all fun and games until someone commits wholesale galactic genocide.
    50. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by arkhan_jg · · Score: 2

      No, actually it's not "useless". There are a shitload of server clusters which run on a single public-facing IP address, but host many, many different sites. How do they perform this "magic"? Why, their load-balancers use this concept called "Network Address Translation" to map the internal, local IP address of each server to the same publicly routable ipv4 address.

      Which is all well and good when it's one customer serving up the same site via one IP to all customers with multiple tin boxes.

      Does you jack-shit good when you have TWO or more customers both wanting port 80 and 443 to go to two different server clusters serving up different domains because they're you know, entirely unrelated companies - and you don't have any more IPv4 addresses to give them.

      We're not there yet, but we're getting much too close to it to be this late in IPv6 deployment.

      --
      Remember kids, it's all fun and games until someone commits wholesale galactic genocide.
    51. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by arkhan_jg · · Score: 2

      BUT I'm pretty sure I've been hearing that refrain for several years now.

      We've been warning you for several years, because we wanted the transition to dual-stack IPv6 to happen BEFORE we ran out of IPv4 addresses. By the end of this year, all bar a tiny handful of remaining netblocks globally will be allocated to ISPs. After that, there is no more room for device/server/service growth. There will be no more addresses to hand out. It's either carrier-grade NAT for end-users and retasking their IPs for servers, or IPv6 only.

      Salvaging the remaining class-A netblocks will take far longer to reclaim than they will to allocate. We're already seeing IPv6 only devices on mobile networks in asia, and carrier-grade NAT on mobile networks in europe. It won't be long now before the same has to happen to end-users on full-fat broadband connections.

      IPv6 should have been deployed years ago. That we're this late in process, this close to total IPv4 exhaustion, is rediculous. What could have been a smooth transition is now going to be a massive messy expensive rush crisis of a transition because ISPs couldn't see past their next quarter profit results.

      --
      Remember kids, it's all fun and games until someone commits wholesale galactic genocide.
    52. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      Given that 2^32=4.3 billion, you're wrong. There are a few million addresses locked up in old class A networks.

      Your both wrong, by my count the direct /8 allocations compose about 700 million addresses. Not "billions" but a lot more than a "few million".

      Still as you say just adding them back to the free pool wouldn't solve anything. What we need is a functional market so that addresses can be allocated to the uses that can justify their cost. Those that can't justify the cost of a public v4 IP will have to find other soloutions (be it v6 or natted v4).

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    53. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by gbjbaanb · · Score: 1

      I used to think this, and it was very very true while home routers failed to support IPv6. (the manufacturers are idiots, imagine putting IPv6 on your routers and selling them as an added feature - most users won't know what it is, but they'll know its 'future proof' and shinier as it has a IPv6 sticker)

      However, IPv6 home routers are starting to appear. In the UK the Andrews and Arnold ISP will give you IPv6 address, and they're evaluating routers.

      They haven't decided which to use, but that's probably more down to cost considerations etc than technical as they have said the Technicolor TG582n is good to go.

      As for performance, I imagine it'll be as good as the IPv4 as generally its just a bit of firmware change to get it running. Routing should be quicker, and if you're no longer going through NAT proxying, that should make it a tiny bit faster too.

    54. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      One would think that with all that IPv6-propaganda, that such IPv6-only (please remember the "only"-part here) services would be all over the airwaves.

      Surely you can name a couple of those?

      Couldn't you be bothered to google?
      http://ipv6.cybernode.com/list-of-ipv6-only-sites

      Your naivety seems to be as large as those of the IPv6-designers.

      People are not as stupid as you may believe. They will not just take an IPv6 address and leave out 99% of their customers and wait years/decades until IPv6 happens. No, they will in some way get an IPv4 address, even if (gasp, oh noes) that involves paying some modest fee (which will be probably still be lower than what a domain costs today) or they will work around the problem using NAT.

      You clearly don't understand the technologies involved. You cannot just "buy an IP address" from someone else - anything under a /20 won't get any routing on the public network. I'm sure that there will be transfers of address space between providers (for a fee) but none of this is as trivial as you make out.

      I fully expect to start seeing _some_ parts of services becoming IPv6-only over the next few years. This will start with certain restricted markets where the service provider can pretty much guarantee that their end-users have IPv6 connectivity (as mentioned, there are already a number of IPv6-only websites in asia where the service provider knows that their target audiance is going to have IPv6 connectivity). Gradually (and yes, very slowly) we will see more and more services becoming IPv6-only.

      I have thought for a while that companies wanting do do a "soft launch" of a service could do well from launching it as a v6-only website. For example, Google have a habit of restricting access to their new services by only allowing access by invitation in order to keep the adoption rate manageable. Instead of doing this, they could launch new services as IPv6-only to limit the adoption rate, and only later allow IPv4 access too.

      No matter how ugly it's going to be, after some time the bugs are ironed out and it will work (unlike IPv6, which even Google can get to work on all their services).

      IPv6 works fine - I've been using it for many years with no problems. I've seen no evidence of gogole being incapable of getting IPv6 working on all their services - it is true that AAAA RRs aren't published for all services at the moment, but that isn't an indication of Google being unable to do this, simply an indication that they haven't bothered to do so yet. No one is saying that the whole world needs to switch in an instant - this will be a gradual process and people saying "I'm not ever going to upgrade" makes them look like idiots. There is no reason to not upgrade over the natural hardware replacement cycle. Are you still running Windows 2 because you refused to upgrade to anything newer?

      So you are fully correct when you say that many people are "going to start having problems", but unfortunately IPv6 is not a solution to the problems, because shutting out 99% of users is not a solution, period.

      Who has said anything about shutting out 99% of users?
      - The first IPv6-only services to have launched, have a restricted target audiance who already have IPv6 connectivity (so not shutting out 99% of their users).
      - Over the natural replacement cycle, IPv6 support will be phased in everywhere. In order to avoid this, people would have to actively be avoiding IPv6 which seems like nonsense. Again, this isn't shutting out 99% of users, this will largely go unnoticed by users.
      - I certainly envisage dual-stacked services that have more features when accessed over v6. This isn't shutting out 99% of the users, it is just being practical and not giving them such a feature rich service. These could well be features su

    55. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      I wonder if this is part of the reason for the planned speed doubling - replacing the modems for extra speed is easier to explain to the public (via DOCSIS 3, I expect), but getting IPv6 support as a nice "side-effect".

      Possibly, although beyond a bit of management work there's nothing wrong with keeping IPv4 management addresses on the network so long as they can keep the number of addresses low enough, so no particular reason to upgrade existing customers, just a reason to start deploying IPv6 kit to new customers.

      Plus, as long as no one advertises it, there's less pressure if it doesn't work, too!

      ISTR that Virgin have said they will be rolling out v6 to end users by the end of the year, so that's a good thing. It would be nice to see more ISPs making statements about their position on IPv6 even if it is "we have no plans to implement IPv6" so you'd know which to avoid. (You wouldn't catch me subscribing to an ISP who said they weren't going to deploy IPv6 coz it demonstrates a complete lack of investment in necessary upgrades)

    56. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by smpoole7 · · Score: 1

      We will make sure we're IPv6-ready on our Internet-facing Web and Mail servers, but in-house, we are in no hurry at all. Most of the equipment that we use is IPv4 -- even the stuff purchased in the past year. We have microwave data links between our studios and transmitters, for example, that are IPv4-only. Our audio-over-IP network is all IPv4. The manufacturers of this equipment have no plans to support IPv6 for some time to come, and it would cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to replace it. Ergo, it's not going to happen, especially not in this economy.

      Internally, we'd have to do a "mixed" IPv4/IPv6 network and it's just not worth the expense and bother. If it works, don't fix it.

      I just wrote an article for an industry trade magazine, and that's what I told my fellow broadcast engineers: looking toward the Internet, think IPv6. But when you turn around and look back in-house, it's your choice. If you can do it, go ahead; if not, don't worry about it and don't let anyone browbeat you over it. It's your decision.

      Technically, you don't have to use TCP/IP in-house at all; you could use something completely different if you really wanted to. You'd need something to translate from your network to the Internet if you want outside access, but in house, you could do whatever you wanted.

      That's admittedly not likely, but it's at least a possibility.

      --
      Cogito, igitur comedam pizza.
    57. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Midnight+Thunder · · Score: 4, Informative

      If all your computers on the internal network have IPv6 capability then all you need to do is turn it on. They will automatically assign themselves a link local IPv6 address and will be able to talk to each other. After that it is simply a matter of having services that support IPv6. As for name resolution you can either use something like Bonjour (aka mDNS) or have an IPv6 capable router with DHCPv6.

      I have been running IPv6 on my home network, using an Apple airport, for the past year and there is really not much setup to do. It would be nice if my ISP supported IPv6, but until then there is 6to4.

      --
      Jumpstart the tartan drive.
    58. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by smpoole7 · · Score: 1

      > For a *home network* you're correct ...

      Change that to "small-to-medium-sized network" and I might agree with you. Everyone talks about the "1% vs. the 99%" ... well, that applies to networking, too. The vast, VAST majority of us only need IPv6 on the Internet. We are perfectly fine with IPv4 internally.

      Now, if you have a big, multi-city network that is all tied together over the Public Tubes(tm) (with a nod to the late Sen Stevens), yeah, you need IPv6. But you are part of a very small minority. Don't make the mistake of assuming that because YOU need it, everyone else does. More importantly, don't give me the gimlet eye and scold me because I haven't switched in-house to something that I DO. NOT. NEED.

      What is actually going to happen is, DLink, Linksys and the other usual suspects are going to produce $100 "interface/translator" boxes that will "speak" IPv6 where needed. Whenever I run into a situation where I just can't avoid IPv6, I'll throw something like that inline (or a Linux box with a good distro, for that matter -- I already do that all the time now).

      The idea that everyone and everything, from your television to your printer to your average small office filled with PCs is going to immediately jump on the IPv6 bandwagon is just silly. It's not going to happen, not for a very long time to come.

      --
      Cogito, igitur comedam pizza.
    59. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which is why we need to do this now.

    60. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      More to the point the companies that go full IPv6 will they put their IPv4 back in the pool for all of us to share?

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    61. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Bengie · · Score: 1

      "So they are claiming that they have nearly 18 million unique devices to manage"

      You must not understand how routing tables work.
      hint: You need to create subnets to route, which also removes a lot of usable IPs. You can NEVER use every IP.

    62. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      The vast, VAST majority of us only need IPv6 on the Internet. We are perfectly fine with IPv4 internally.

      But in order to access IPv6 content on the internet, your local devices are going to have v6 addresses anyway, so they may as well use them...

      What is actually going to happen is, DLink, Linksys and the other usual suspects are going to produce $100 "interface/translator" boxes that will "speak" IPv6 where needed.

      That would require the boxes to understand high level protocols. For anything more trivial than web proxying, this is probably a recipe for management headaches. If people want single-stack networks, what is more likley is for whole networks to become IPv6-only and place a NAT64 and DNS64 box on the border of the network. Although frankly I'm not sure I can see the point - running a dual stacked setup is probably going to be easier than dealing with translation all over the place when talking to legacy equipment.

      The idea that everyone and everything, from your television to your printer to your average small office filled with PCs is going to immediately jump on the IPv6 bandwagon is just silly. It's not going to happen, not for a very long time to come.

      Woh there. Why is everyone assuming people are saying things are "immediately" going to happen? I don't think anyone is saying that - migration will be a gradual process, and of course there will be v4-only devices around for a good while that still need to be supported.

      Despite technologies such as NAT64, I largely think the best way of handling the transition is to run the entire LAN dual-stacked. RFC1918 addresses on the internal IPv4 side with a NAT gateway on the border (whether that is on the border of your network or your ISP's network will probably depend on how much you're paying the ISP). On the colocated server side, there will probably be proxy servers and DNAT gateways to handle the IPv4 traffic, but at some point the cost of doing that is going to outweigh the benefits, and at that point we'll see v4-only users become second class citizens as money is not invested into these proxy solutions at the datacentres, but that isn't going to happen for a looong time.

    63. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Candyban · · Score: 0

      on my own internal network I might not bother with setting up IPV6, and instead do the equivalent of a NAT for my internal servers to give them an IPV4 address and only have my border router deal with IPV6

      Good luck. You obviously never tried this and got burned to the ground by the "netfilter" guys because their "NAT IS EVIL" mantra.

      AFAIK there IS NO IPv6 NAT available at all with iptables (unlike openBSD). Their suggestion: "use reverse proxies".

      Heck even a single command to administer everything is too much to ask (they are separate protocols, but then again every other application which binds to :: will serve both 4 and 6). You'll have to duplicate each firewall rule set.

    64. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by GPLHost-Thomas · · Score: 1

      We're years away from ipv4 exhaustion.

      Then WHAT? It's not because we're years away from IPv4 exhaustion that we shouldn't setup IPv6 connectivity RIGHT NOW. Why? Simply because some organizations are already using IPv6, and that it's extremely convenient to have so many IP addresses that you can use. Like, having a full /64 for your home is not just a fancy new thing, it REALLY IS convenient. So I really don't get why you are talking about IPv4 exhaustion, I never did. I just wrote that absolutely all ISPs should be implementing IPv6 right away now, and if they don't they are just lame.

    65. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are wrong.

    66. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by FireFury03 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Exactly. Granted, on my own internal network I might not bother with setting up IPV6, and instead do the equivalent of a NAT for my internal servers to give them an IPV4 address and only have my border router deal with IPV6.

      Why? One of the really big benefits of IPv6 is the lack of address translation. This means stuff like peer to peer services (e.g. VoIP) can work without having to use unreliable nat traversal technologies such as STUN (peer to peer systems have to exchange addressing information. If there is no NAT then they just look at the local machine's address. If there is NAT then they have to use various techniques to probe the NAT and then make an educated guess as to what IP address and port their traffic will be translated to). If you try to perform some non-standard NAT at the border, you're going to reintroduce a lot of problems that IPv6 was built to avoid, and you also introduce an overhead of having to manage the NAT.

      Eventually -- which probably means "the next version of Windows" given how IT seems to work these days -- IPV6 will be phased in even internally.

      Why wait for the next version of Windows? Windows newer than XP has supported IPv6 out of the box (XP just involves a driver install), Linux has supported v6 out of the box for over 10 years, OS X supports it out of the box, Android supports it out of the box, lots of Apple hardware Just Works with v6, etc. Just setting the router to send RAs should see most of the clients on an average network automatically start to use v6, no need to upgrade the OS or reconfigure it.

    67. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Bengie · · Score: 1

      I've seen an almost identical drivel in nearly every IPv6 story, all up-voted +3 at the time I read them. Do you have a template, then vote your post up using alt accounts? Am I not seeing a sarc tag and people just didn't vote funny because that wouldn't give karma? I'm not sure how to respond, other than you must not be an admin if this was a real post. If this was a big whoosh on my part and you're just joking, well done sir. You troll with conviction.

    68. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by GPLHost-Thomas · · Score: 2

      I tend to not agree with that. I'm the boss of GPLHost, and we have 10 points of presence. We have asked absolutely all of the data centers if they had IPv6 connectivity, and could announce some /38 for us, as we have a /32 delegation from APNIC (yes, that's 4 billions x 4 billions x 4 billions IPs, and that's the smallest block you can get for IPv6 with APNIC !!!). Then guess what ? Only ONE of them provided a full dual stack support, and they are doing very funny RADVd announces (eg: not announcing a /64, which doesn't work by default on Linux). All the others, they either said just "no", or "yes, we're working on it, maybe later...". That's just lame. So of course, since we do have customers willing to use IPv6, we did it by ourselves, and we peer with HE using v6 over v4 tunnel. All this is lame lame lame.

      So no, the issue isn't just home router. ISPs are globally lame. There's nothing hard in setting-up IPv6, but they just don't do it.

    69. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Grizzley9 · · Score: 2

      Oh that Colonel Sanders, with his wee beedy eyes. Making you crave his chicken fortnightly!

    70. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Enry · · Score: 4, Informative

      It doesn't need to be 18 million devices - each subnet is already dropped by two to have a gateway and broadcast address. It's also unlikely that every /24 will have all 254 remaining devices on it. At work I have a /22 and only have about 700 IP addresses assigned, but the rest are unusable to anyone outside my group.

      This is one of the core problems with IPv4 (which CIDR) skirted around. IPv6 has this problem as well, but having more IP addresses available than number of atoms in the sun (or something like that) means even with a ridiculous amount of waste there's still plenty of addresses to go around. Heck, Hurricane Electric assigned me a /64 IPv6 subnet (2^64 addresses available)

      You're also forgetting worldwide organizations that need to do a site-to-site VPN. Each site now needs to coordinate its internal addressing so there's no overlap. Going with IPv6 completely eliminates this need.

    71. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Pieroxy · · Score: 1

      Oh, and for us IE6 users, there are ways around getting to blocked sites. It's called changing the user agent and/or version reply in the registry. You know, for such blocked sites such as www.myspace.com or www.target.com.

      Boy! Do you know little about the web...

      I tried your "trick" with gmail, but I couldn't get the regular interface to work. After a while trying different things, my browser crashed. Maybe I did put the wrong user-agent?

    72. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      Disclaimer: my only experience with IPv6 was on a Linux client machine. For me, it meant horribly slow web browsing as many requests involved waiting for IPv6 to timeout before if would fall back and try IPv4. I opted for lazy and just disabled IPv6 rather than go looking for a solution.

      FWIW, this is why people like Google are concerned about publishing AAAA records - people with broken networks will see the sites become very slow.

      This is usually caused by one of 2 problems:
      1. Your machine has been configured with a default IPv6 route, even though there isn't actually any v6 connectivity. This is reasonably unusual, since in their default configuration machines usually expect to receive an RA to tell them what routes to set up, and in the absence of a router broadcasting RAs they will set no routes (which is correct). Maybe you had a misconfigured IPv6 router on the network that was telling client machines that it was providing an IPv6 internet connection when it wasn't?

      2. Some DNS servers are completely broken and drop requests for an AAAA record. If your local caching DNS server is doing this then you basically end up seeing all web requests, etc. being slow since the browser will look up an AAAA record to find out if the website is accessible over v6 and the DNS server won't respond.
      Worse: I've seen an authoratative DNS server actually return NXDOMAIN when asked for an AAAA record, instead of returning no record. This makes a caching name server decide that the domain doesn't exist at all (i.e. no A record either) until the NTTL expires. Unfortunately in the case where I saw this happen and contacted the website operator (offering them free help debugging the problem), they told me that everything was working fine and refused to fix it, so all I could do was tell my customer (who was experiencing problems accessing the site) that they would have to take their business elsewhere since the service provider was incompetent.

    73. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by holizz · · Score: 2

      I have the same Linksys router. You need the DD-WRT mini (I think) image for that. DD-WRT for no apparent reason think IPv6 is unimportant and so don't include it on the mini image.

    74. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      Legacy devices are an issue. They are an issue, and will remain an issue. It's not just having money to replace legacy devices, it's also the time that would be spent getting new devices to work. For companies, maybe not a big deal? But for consumers, yeah, it's a big deal, since money isn't free.

      Of course. "devices" probably largely fall into these categories:
      1. Network routers
      2. Network switches
      3. Printers
      4. PCs
      5. Mobile phones
      6. VoIP phones (and FXO/FXS gateways)
      7. Games consoles
      8. NAS

      So lets tackle these one at a time:
      1. Routers - these will need to support v6, so yes, an upgrade is required. It is a shame that its still largely impossible to get a v6 capable home router because this is something that _should_ have been handled by natural wastage (i.e. old router blows up, buy a new one and it has IPv6 support as standard). I guess it will take a while because I don't expect people to go out and replace their router without a significant reason. That said, there are frequently good reasons to replace this hardware, such as the forever increasing speed of internet connections (which often require a new modem).
      2. Network switches - Mostly layer 2 devices so IPv6 is a non-issue. For managed switches then they can still be managed over IPv4 and there doesn't seem to be much need for them to be globally reachable so as long as the network is dual stacked, no upgrades necessary. Admittedly multicast snooping won't work, but that's only important in certain situations on very large networks, so not really a problem for home users.
      3. Printers - Again, no need for global reachability, so just using IPv4 on a dual-stacked network is fine here, no need to upgrade
      4. PCs - these will largely Just Work. Windows XP needs a driver to be installed, but everything newer (Windows Vista/7, Linux, OS X) will autoconfigure v6 when it receives an RA, so no upgrades needed here. Admittedly most home XP users won't install the v6 driver unless they need to access some service that explicitly tells them they need to.
      5. Mobile phones - Android 2.0 supports v6, and given that Apple seem to support v6 quite well on a lot of devices I presume iOS probably does too. So nothing new needed here, it just requires a v6-enabled network for them to connect to.
      6. Hard VoIP phones and gateways probably talk to a specific predefined server. So long as that server stays on v4 (Which it probably will since it would be a headache for the service provider to move it to v6 and support all their customers, and it isn't a new deployment so already has a working v4 address), they can continue to work on a dual-stacked network. Admittedly there are sometimes issues combining VoIP and NAT.
      7. Games consoles - like VoIP phones, they are probably talking to a single existing server so they can continue to do IPv4 on a dual-stacked network.
      8. NAS - no need for global connectivity (usually), so IPv4 on a dual stacked network is fine.

      All of these devices will eventually be replaced anyway (because they die or need to be upgraded for another reason), but for the time being there isn't actually a lot of need to replace most of them.

      Oh, and for us IE6 users, there are ways around getting to blocked sites. It's called changing the user agent and/or version reply in the registry. You know, for such blocked sites such as www.myspace.com or www.target.com.

      I wasn't meaning blocked sites. I was talking about sites being developed _for_ IE6. For example, a lot of web developers don't even bother to test under IE6 these days - the site might work, if you're lucky, but IE6's rendering model is so broken that the chances are it won't work entirely as expected. It just isn't worth the cost of fixing up code so they work well in IE6.

    75. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here's the list of /8 subnet holders.... how many of these companies really need /8 address space?

      http://www.iana.org/assignments/ipv4-address-space/ipv4-address-space.xml

      Ford? Bell Northern Research (aka Nortel)?

      There's still plenty of IPs, they just are in someone's closet.

    76. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by PRMan · · Score: 1

      Care to explain how simply having NAT doesn't increase security a great deal? That's like saying that Web Services don't improve security over simple SQL security. True, you could do it either way, but most admins seem to be going with the web services for some odd reason.

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    77. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by russotto · · Score: 1

      My home network already is running IPv6. Know what I had to do to make it so? Nothing. It just works. A few Macs, a couple of Linux machines, a DDWRT access point, and a Zyxel access point all handle IPv6 just fine. The only device which doesn't work is the FIOS gateway, and that's up to Verizon, not much I can do about it.

    78. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My wireless router does not support IPV6, and it wasn't created in the stone age, a Linksys WRT54G2. (3ish years old) Sure, it was cheap, but it's also hard to justify spending more to replace reliably working equipment.

      If it doesn't support IPv6, I'm not sure if you could consider it "reliably working".

    79. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by andyring · · Score: 1

      I already did, two weeks ago.

    80. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      Couldn't you be bothered to google?
      http://ipv6.cybernode.com/list-of-ipv6-only-sites

      Server not found

      Firefox can't find the server at ipv6.cybernode.com.

      Truly, I am impressed.

    81. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      Couldn't you be bothered to google?
      http://ipv6.cybernode.com/list-of-ipv6-only-sites

      Server not found

      Firefox can't find the server at ipv6.cybernode.com.

      Truly, I am impressed.

      You could either get into the 21st century and enable IPv6 on your network, or learn how to use the damned google cache:
      http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:X9icMrzufDgJ:ipv6.cybernode.com/list-of-ipv6-only-sites+http://ipv6.cybernode.com/list-of-ipv6-only-sites&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk

    82. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by smpoole7 · · Score: 1

      > But in order to access IPv6 content on the internet, your local devices are going to have v6 addresses anyway ...

      No they won't! That is completely incorrect. That's one of the most common misconceptions about IPv6. As I said above: it is entirely possible to have an internal network that doesn't even use TCP/IP at all. All you'd need is a *translation* mechanism at the gateway to the Internet.

      That's what many people are doing right now when you use a paid wireless data plan -- for example, I can tether my Android to my laptop. The laptop is 100% IPv4; IPv6 is *disabled.* But my wireless network is IPv6. Not a problem, my smartphone translates everything for me and I don't even have to think about it.

      My *ISP* is still IPv4 on its local network. Their backbone from ATT is still IPv4. They're tunneling and translating everything for us.

      The flipside: people who are on an IPv6 provider will be given a dynamic IPv6 address by their ISP. But the translation is done at the Internet gateway. The people inside that building don't know and don't care. They enter "google.com" in their Web browser and they get a search page.

      Get this straight in your head. There is nothing that COMPELS anyone to use IPv6 in house IPv6 has some real benefits, and I certainly don't hate it. But I'm not going to spend thousands of dollars converting my internal systems when I DO NOT HAVE TO.

      --
      Cogito, igitur comedam pizza.
    83. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0

    84. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by MyHair · · Score: 3, Informative

      Plus wastage due to subnetting (network address, broadcast etc)...
      Imagine trying to segment a network of that size, and then trying to keep track of what was in which segment etc... Would be quite a nightmare.

      Allow me to point out a couple of IPv6's features for you:

      - IPv6 is designed to be hierarchical, so knowing the location of a segment will be easier than IPv4. Each /64 is routed under a matching /48, which is under a /32, etc..

      - All subnets should be /64's

      - IPv6 does not use broadcast IPs. It has various multicast addresses with the prefix ff00:/8 to address the link-local domain (~=broadcast), site-local domain, etc.

      - Don't think of "wastage". By design every subnet should be a /64. The host address is intended to be globally unique, so there are 2^63 available globally-unique host addresses that by design can move to another prefix and still be unique within that prefix. If you don't want to use a globally unique ID, there are also 2^63 non-globally-unique IDs, and for example prefix::1 is one of them. By your thinking the IPv6 waste is colossal, but it's not waste, it's a design feature which allows hierarchical routing and collision-free merging of subnets.

      - Routers need not take up a public IPv6 address if you're that desperate for space (which you aren't, I promise). All IPv6 hosts have a link-local address (think 169.254.0.0/16, but always there), and the router can advertise a route on the link-local address

    85. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Cimexus · · Score: 1

      Heh, that's because that list itself is an IPv6-only site. There's no A (IPv4) record for it but there is an AAAA (IPv6) one: 2001:470:1:1b9::31

      The site works fine here though (I have native IPv6 on my home connection and have for over a year now).

      There isn't that much on the list though, to be honest. I don't think you'll really "need" dual stack for quite a few years yet (as in, it will be years before you actually notice you aren't able to access a significant number of sites because they are IPv6-only).

      BUT, it takes time for ISPs to roll IPv6 out correctly and for users to upgrade their routers (if necessary) etc. So people should be starting to at least think about it now.

    86. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by mcavic · · Score: 3, Insightful

      NAT itself may not do much for security, but a properly-designed NAT router does. If an external machine requests to talk to an internal machine, it's going get denied, because the router knows without a doubt that the external machine is on the external interface, and that the internal IP address is in fact internal.

      When you have any number of machines behind a router, and can't guarantee that all of them have a software firewall turned on, using a NAT router to protect the network makes imminent sense. Unless I'm wrong somehow and every home network in the world is ripe for attack.

    87. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by MyHair · · Score: 2

      Um, even Win2k had IPv6 downloadable. WinXP just needs it turned on. Vista an 7 have it on by default and will use it for file sharing and terminal services.

      Outside of ISP availability and SOHO router support, the only current stumbling blocks with IPv6 are programs that try to store IP addresses and haven't been updated to store IPv6 addresses. Programs that use or store host names and use the OS'es name resolution work fine as-is.

      Having IPv6 to the router and IPv4 behind it doesn't make a lot of sense. Layer 2 and client IPv6 really isn't a problem.

      But no, IPv4 isn't going away soon. Dual-stack will be a reality for at least a few years, probably 10-20.

      Aside from IPv4-only servers, the biggest stumbling block to ditching IPv4 entirely (once IPv6 is ubiquitous) is that there is no PXE boot for IPv6 yet. Will somebody please develop that and start getting it into boot firmware?

    88. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by tdknox · · Score: 1

      A simple iRule in an F5 LTM will allow you to manage a metric shitload of unique domains and services, on multiple servers, behind a single IPv4 address and TCP port. They've been doing this for years. I've personally set this up for several companies whose domain names might surprise you. :-)

      --
      Did you know that gullible is not in the dictionary?
    89. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Your WRT54G2 router supports DD-WRT, which supports IPv6. Granted, it isn't a one-click install/setup, but it can be done. I spent a few hours researching and setting it up on my WRT54GL a year ago, and haven't had a problem since.

    90. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by mcavic · · Score: 1

      Now, IPv6 doesn't necessarily preclude this. Just don't forget that your $89 router is a firewall, and when it gets upgraded to IPv6 it had better still be a firewall.

    91. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by cduffy · · Score: 1

      A simple iRule in an F5 LTM will allow you to manage a metric shitload of unique domains and services, on multiple servers, behind a single IPv4 address and TCP port.

      Good luck doing that for SSL when each customer wants a unique certificate and client browsers don't support SNI.

    92. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by rb12345 · · Score: 1

      I wonder if this is part of the reason for the planned speed doubling - replacing the modems for extra speed is easier to explain to the public (via DOCSIS 3, I expect), but getting IPv6 support as a nice "side-effect".

      Possibly, although beyond a bit of management work there's nothing wrong with keeping IPv4 management addresses on the network so long as they can keep the number of addresses low enough, so no particular reason to upgrade existing customers, just a reason to start deploying IPv6 kit to new customers.

      It's probably as much effort to rewrite the management side to segment/double-NAT the network as it is to switch to v6. The cheaper/easier route is to just burn public address space like Comcast, but requires available space. Double-NAT for end-users would avoid that, but then you're buying new routers for CGN. At that point, there's no reason not to add v6 support while they're at it.

      (My personal opinion is that we'll see a lot of dual v6/CGN deployment in the next few years, thanks to management issues and the need for v4 access.)

    93. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Imagix · · Score: 3, Informative

      The "NAT" part of that post isn't what's providing your security, the "firewall" part is.

    94. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You should try it again. Your problems were likely due to bad IPv6 network configuration (6to4) that have largely been fixed in the network or worked around by browsers.

      Many browsers have updated their behaviors to 'race' IPv4 and IPv6 connections to see which connects fastest, and use it.

    95. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by FireFury03 · · Score: 2

      > But in order to access IPv6 content on the internet, your local devices are going to have v6 addresses anyway ...

      No they won't! That is completely incorrect. That's one of the most common misconceptions about IPv6. As I said above: it is entirely possible to have an internal network that doesn't even use TCP/IP at all. All you'd need is a *translation* mechanism at the gateway to the Internet.

      Yes, and back in reality its going to be easier to simply dual-stack the network than deal with translating all the high level protocols individually at the border.

      That's what many people are doing right now when you use a paid wireless data plan -- for example, I can tether my Android to my laptop. The laptop is 100% IPv4; IPv6 is *disabled.* But my wireless network is IPv6. Not a problem, my smartphone translates everything for me and I don't even have to think about it.

      Your smartphone won't be translating anything. Your smartphone will be tunnelling - i.e. simply encapsulating the IPv4 packets inside an IPv6 packet which the telco will then de-encapsulate and NAT to one of their IPv4 addresses. Your laptop still won't be able to access IPv6 content unless there is a high level protocol proxy involved. If there is a proxy involved then only certain specific protocols will work - the proxy isn't going to know how to translate all protocols.

      My *ISP* is still IPv4 on its local network. Their backbone from ATT is still IPv4. They're tunneling and translating everything for us.

      I'm confused by what you are claiming here. You say your computer is IPv4 only and your ISP is IPv4 only. Your ISP isn't tunnelling or translating anything, you're simply not going to be able to access IPv6 services.

      The flipside: people who are on an IPv6 provider will be given a dynamic IPv6 address by their ISP. But the translation is done at the Internet gateway. The people inside that building don't know and don't care. They enter "google.com" in their Web browser and they get a search page.

      First of all, most people who are on an ISP that provides IPv6 connectivity will be getting a dual stacked connection - they will have IPv4 as well (possibly CGNATted). If their PC only does IPv4 then they will be unable to access IPv6 content.
      If the ISP only offers the customer a single-stack IPv6 connection and the customer's PC doesn't support IPv6, it simply won't work at all.

      If the ISP offers the customer a single-stack IPv6 connection, and the customer's PC supports IPv6, the ISP can also run NAT64 and DNS64 servers which would allow their customer to access IPv4 services. The whole IPv4 address space can fit in a tiny corner of the IPv6 address space, so each IPv4 addresses is mapped to a unique IPv6 address. This means that, as far as the IPv6 client is concerned, the IPv4 server has a unique IPv6 address. The client connects to that unique IPv6 address and the NAT64 server intercepts the traffic, extracts the IPv4 address that is encoded within the destination IPv6 address and forwards it on over the IPv4 network. This is easy, but also not what you are proposing.

      Your proposal was that the client network remain IPv4-only but would be able to connect to IPv6 servers. The problem with this is that an IPv6 address can't be encoded within an IPv4 address, so a border gateway won't be able to figure out what IPv6 address to send the packet to. The only way you can do this is to have a border gateway that understands higher level protocols. For example, for HTTP the gateway can look at the host name the client is trying to connect to, and do its own DNS lookups to convert that into an IPv6 address. However, you would have to provide a gateway that understands every high level protocol you're using, and for some protocols it simply isn't possible because they don't encode the required information.

    96. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Ultra64 · · Score: 1

      Works for me

    97. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by speculatrix · · Score: 2

      dhcp6 is evil. just enable route advertisements, the way it's meant to be.

      http://www.litech.org/radvd/

    98. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by speculatrix · · Score: 1

      this is actually a PITA. suppose you want to force all outbound traffic via a proxy cache for security purposes and bandwidth management... with iptables-v4 it was trivial. not so with ipv6.

    99. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

      Heck, Hurricane Electric assigned me a /64 IPv6 subnet (2^64 addresses available)

      They pretty much had to. That /64 is the only standard IPv6 subnet size. You can't go any smaller without breaking things like link-local autoconfiguration.

      What's really impressive is that Hurricane Electric will allocate you a /48 (2^16 complete IPv6 subnets) on request, so that you can set up multiple networks under a common prefix.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    100. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      this is actually a PITA. suppose you want to force all outbound traffic via a proxy cache for security purposes and bandwidth management... with iptables-v4 it was trivial. not so with ipv6.

      It is still trivial, that's what TPROXY is for

    101. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For the past five years, IANA's IPv4 burn rate (the rate they were doling out IPs to the RIRs) averaged one /8 per month.

      The time spent harassing, sanitizing and redeploying "recovered" historical IP assignments is not worth it -- it simply does not buy enough time.

    102. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      There's still plenty of IPs, they just are in someone's closet.

      If you think that, you clearly have no idea how quickly IPs are being used.

    103. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Try configuring class E space on a device. Most devices (including Cisco, Windows 7 and Linux) will NOT allow that IP space to be used.

    104. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by slimjim8094 · · Score: 1

      Actually, it was pretty easy. I use a small Linux box as a NAT box and router, which admittedly made it easier. It was pretty much as simple as establishing a tunnel and requesting a subnet, then assigning the subnet to the internal Ethernet network and firing up radvd. No sweat. iDevices and Android devices work out of the box, as do Macs and Linux. The Wii does not, but I haven't turned off v4 so that's no big deal. A few clicks on XP and v6 works fine, it's out of the box on Vista+

      You seem to think I turned off v4. I see no reason to do that, but when the time is right, it'll be dirt-simple. I know most of my stuff will work with v6, because it's currently working with v6. Plus, I get the added benefits right now for things like P2P.

      --
      I have developed a truly marvelous proof of this comment, which this signature is too narrow to contain.
    105. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > we will be able to video conference from one PC directly to another, anywhere in the world.

      Won't you still have firewalls even in IPv6 world? So I don't really see much difference..

    106. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by compro01 · · Score: 1

      Awesome! Awesome!

      There's enough IPs there to last us for whole MONTHS!

      Each /8 you reclaim will buy you about 2 weeks, then you're back to being out.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    107. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by swillden · · Score: 1

      Total: 17,891,328

      Ah, but how many ports do you have for disambiguating connections? And at what point does the dynamic routing table just become unmanageable?

      NAT is a nasty, ugly hack that only mildly breaks in tiny home network cases, but fails badly when you try to scale it.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    108. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by DarkOx · · Score: 1

      Its possible one could build a "dynamic" 4to6 gateway. I get a ipv4 DNS request from a client, discover only AAA records exist. Store the IPv6 address (stateful) create and store a bogus ipv4 address for which the client will use you as a gateway. Create a flow from ipv4addr.port to ipv6addr.port with a keep alive; Send the ipv4 address to the client as the dns reply. Pretty much what overloaded 4to4 NATs do today with the added DNS parts.

      The trouble is if DNS is not used how do you determine what v6 host to connect to? I suppose for the most part anything not using DNS you could create static NAT entries for. Desktop users running web browsers will be mostly ok.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    109. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by swillden · · Score: 1

      Heck, Hurricane Electric assigned me a /64 IPv6 subnet (2^64 addresses available)

      Hehe. In IPv6-land a /64 isn't a subnet, it's a host. You can use it as a subnet if you want to, but that's not how it's designed. HE will allocate you a few actual subnets if you want -- /48s (2^80 addresses available).

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    110. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by swillden · · Score: 1

      Heck, Hurricane Electric assigned me a /64 IPv6 subnet (2^64 addresses available)

      Hehe. In IPv6-land a /64 isn't a subnet, it's a host. You can use it as a subnet if you want to, but that's not how it's designed. HE will allocate you a few actual subnets if you want -- /48s (2^80 addresses available).

      Duh. Sorry, thinko. /80 is a host, you're right that /64 is a subnet. It's the smallest IPv6 subnet. But HE will allocate you a /48 (I think up to five of them? Been a while since I looked), so you can have 2^16 /64s.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    111. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      Its possible one could build a "dynamic" 4to6 gateway. I get a ipv4 DNS request from a client, discover only AAA records exist. Store the IPv6 address (stateful) create and store a bogus ipv4 address for which the client will use you as a gateway. Create a flow from ipv4addr.port to ipv6addr.port with a keep alive; Send the ipv4 address to the client as the dns reply. Pretty much what overloaded 4to4 NATs do today with the added DNS parts.

      The trouble is if DNS is not used how do you determine what v6 host to connect to? I suppose for the most part anything not using DNS you could create static NAT entries for. Desktop users running web browsers will be mostly ok.

      Sounds prone to break - how long do you keep the mappings around for? What happens when a client caches DNS responses? What happens when someone needs to use DNSSEC (which admittedly gets broken by DNS64 too)?

      And all this complex and potentially unreliable gatewaying is easier than rolling out v6 because... ?

    112. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by DarkOx · · Score: 1

      Umm? Why the operation is exactly the same. Look the the dest port 80 or 443, redirect to XXXX, I don't see why the address length changes anything.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    113. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by unixisc · · Score: 1

      Actually, in DS-lite, having IPv6 to the router and IPv4 behind it is the only alternative when a node is incapable of working w/ IPv6. So far, I haven't seen any evidence that XP can work w/ IPv6, contrary to what the poster just above you said. DS-lite is a good future-proof solution where your entire network infrastructure is IPv6, and nodes that cannot work w/ IPv6 are given private IPv4 addresses, after being put behind what's called a large scale NAT (LSNAT),

    114. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by DarkOx · · Score: 1

      Umm host headers and SNI?

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    115. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My Comcast modem is my own. I bought it for $20 because I didn't want to pay $7/month for the DOCSIS 3.0 modem. But because it's a DOCSIS 2.0 Modem, IPV6 support is limited.

      It is not a modem. It is a router+modem combination. I have a DSL modem. It doesn't have IP capability, because it is a modem. All it does, is use PPPoE and then transfer that over the wire.

      If your modem has IPv4 or IPv6 in it, it is most likely a router with a modem tacked on.

      Switching to IPV6 is easy, as long as you don't actually do it for real. As soon as you start trying to live it, use it everyday, make it part of your everyday life, well, things get complicated quickly.

      I actually have IPv6 via a tunnel service and use it every day. It is part of my local network. ALL devices have automatic IPv6 assigned to them. DNS will resolve IPv6. Caching proxy will even prefer IPv6 over IPv4. All requests to the proxy are via IPv6, and then from there they go to IPv6 (preferred) or IPv4.

      IPv6 makes my routing table MUCH simpler and my firewall more effective. Heck, for anyone knowing anything about networking, IPv6 is a godsend when compared to IPv4+NAT hell!

    116. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by tepples · · Score: 1

      dhcp6 is evil. just enable route advertisements

      How would a DNS server's IPv6 address be advertised in such a manner? I can't look it up myself due to the SOPA strike.

    117. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by RCL · · Score: 1

      I'm with you. There are enough (like, several tens of millions) IPv4 addresses that, if distributed more evenly than they are now, would cover the needs of the world - at least the needs of most people who don't care whether they are behind NAT or not. Hell, majority of internet-connected device owners don't want to *serve* anything, and P2P/Skype/online games learned to live with that, adopting elaborate NAT punching techniques.

    118. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by unixisc · · Score: 1

      One must have firewalls, but the key point here is that the destination address remains the destination address - it doesn't get altered along the way. When the address has to be altered along the way, that's what causes disruption in the smooth flow of data from end to end.

      Firewalls are only about blocking data from certain users while accepting data from others. Firewalls don't re-route packets to other destinations

    119. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      Or I could just wish you all happy days in your little sealed-off IPv6 world until such time as it becomes relevant to the rest of us.

    120. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by jte · · Score: 1

      I hated The Colonel - with his wee beady eyes...

    121. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by RCL · · Score: 1

      The quality of the site (judging by its copy in cache) impresses no less than the small number of IPv6-only sites it lists. Aren't you ashamed to show the list of 15 (fifteen!) IPv6 only sites (with one test site and one user's home page among them) as the proof that IPv6 connectivity is worth setting up?

      If that's your 21st century, then we had better results in 20th.

    122. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by jgrahn · · Score: 2

      dhcp6 is evil. just enable route advertisements

      How would a DNS server's IPv6 address be advertised in such a manner? I can't look it up myself due to the SOPA strike.

      There is an RFC for that. I can't recall which one, but you can tell radvd(8) to hand out DNS addresses.

    123. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by RCL · · Score: 0

      As you have already been told, there are parts of the world today who turn on their devices and don't get a public IPv4 address.

      And their problem is? Do you realize that more than half of internet users (I would say 90+%) do not need a public IPv4 address? Video conferences work without that, so there's no economical reason to fix what isn't broken. There's even a counter-incentive NOT to solve that non-problem - lack of ability to serve stuff hinders P2P and similar user activities, so I can see why some companies may want to turn internet users into "internet spectators".

    124. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by jgrahn · · Score: 1

      Me too! Instead, I did it on a random day where I was bored, about 4 years ago. Took about 2 hours and I haven't thought about it since.

      I did it on January 1st this year -- had a HE tunnel already, but started using the routed /64 on my home network. Some of my internet traffic (1% or so) goes over IPv6 -- mostly the Debian security updates since my browser (Opera; embarrassing) doesn't support IPv6.

    125. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by RCL · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure that the future of the internet is hierarchically organized network with clear distinction who can serve and who can only consume content. That makes the most business, political and economical sense, to the detriment of user's personal freedom, but loss of said freedom aren't enough to keep that from happening - users are lazy and unorganized.

    126. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by unixisc · · Score: 1

      For the time that they need to provide dual stack services, that is very unlikely. In other words, migrating to IPv6 won't necessarily alleviate the supply of IPv4 addresses

    127. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      I was talking about ipv4 wastage...
      wastage on ipv6 isnt a concern because as you pointed out, the available address space is large enough that it's not going to run out anyway

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    128. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by unixisc · · Score: 1

      For a LAN, since the addresses in question are private, IP exhaustion is not an issue. The only reason to go IPv6 there is to have a protocol compatible w/ the addresses that actually are used to go to external sites. Otherwise, if a network needs no connection to the internet, anything would work - IPv4, IPX, DECnet, AppleTalk or whatever.

    129. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by FoolishOwl · · Score: 1

      From what I can make out, the general form of IPv6 was laid out twenty years ago, and we were supposed to start transitioning to IPv6 ten years ago, through dual-stacking and through offering both IPv4 and IPv6 addresses for Websites and Internet services. Most operating systems have been configured for dual-stacking for many years. In all the cases I've seen, the idea with dual-stacking is that IPv6 is tried first, and if that fails, fall back to IPv4. What should have happened is that, with the main functionality in place, most things should have worked with IPv6, and the inevitable bugs and oversights should have been identified and resolved, and workarounds found for embedded devices and the like, long before we ran out of IPv4 addresses and had to deal with IPv6-only nodes.

      So instead of that, we've had a lot of heads stuck in the sand, and a near guarantee of expensive problems in the near future. And it drives me nuts every time there's a discussion of IPv6, in which someone mentions carrier-grade NAT, or some other horrible kludge to extend IPv4 a little longer, and gets a bunch of responses that now we don't need to worry about implementing IPv6. Also, there are the inevitable posts in which people hit on the brilliant scheme of extending IPv4 by just adding some more digits, which they seem to think would be easier to implement than IPv6.

    130. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by jonbryce · · Score: 1

      About 5m cable customers, 3m mobile customers, all their infrastructure stuff, and the stuff that their employees use. Yes, they probably are getting into that order of magnitude.

    131. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by FoolishOwl · · Score: 1

      If you're counting the reserved IPv4 address blocks, like 224.0.0.0 through 254.0.0.0, there's the problem that the embedded firmware in network devices like routers, etc., will reject those addresses. Fixing that problem would be no easier than fixing the problem of such devices not handling IPv6, and fixing them to use IPv6 is a long term solution.

    132. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by FoolishOwl · · Score: 1

      Disclaimer: my only experience with IPv6 was on a Linux client machine. For me, it meant horribly slow web browsing as many requests involved waiting for IPv6 to timeout before if would fall back and try IPv4. I opted for lazy and just disabled IPv6 rather than go looking for a solution.

      Was this recent? As I recall, this was an issue a few years ago, but was addressed by the draft RFC "Happy Eyeballs", and I gather most systems have more or less implemented it. I haven't heard of anyone disabling IPv6 for that reason for a while.

    133. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      I knew windows wouldn't take them but I didn't know about the others hence why I said "at least one major OS".

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    134. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Creepy · · Score: 1

      I'll join you, my ISP won't support it until the infrastructure is replaced (IPv4 only PPPoE), and I'm sure that isn't an immediate priority for them. All the competitors that do support it are expensive (Comcast and anything backended on Covad, that means you) or have a horrible service track record (Clear, that means you).

    135. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Fujisawa+Sensei · · Score: 2

      no NAT isn't a feature, its a fucking bug.

      I don't want my ISP seeing every fucking machine behind my router/firewall because its none of their fucking business.

      My guess is comcast & co really want this because they want to try and bill customers based on number of machines.

      --
      If someone is passing you on the right, you are an asshole for driving in the wrong lane.
    136. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Yaztromo · · Score: 1

      5. Mobile phones - Android 2.0 supports v6, and given that Apple seem to support v6 quite well on a lot of devices I presume iOS probably does too. So nothing new needed here, it just requires a v6-enabled network for them to connect to.

      iOS does indeed support IPv6.

      Admittedly there are sometimes issues combining VoIP and NAT.

      VoIP is one of the most obvious applications for IPv6.

      7. Games consoles - like VoIP phones, they are probably talking to a single existing server so they can continue to do IPv4 on a dual-stacked network.

      Modern game consoles aren't that big of a concern, as typically the OS and network protocol stack live on the game media itself, and not on the hardware. Old games won't be magically upgraded to IPv6 support, but then again online support for old games isn't all that reliable anyhow. New games that wish to support IPv6 will simply include the necessary protocol stack drivers on their game media. Online features built into the consoles themselves can be handled via a firmware update. The Playstation 2 has IPv6 support (according to this

      , it's part of the Standard Developer Kit) -- I would expect that newer consoles also have support in their development kits, even if developers aren't currently taking advantage of it.

      Yaz

    137. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I just wanted a NAT and they gave me a firewall for free! Kick-ass!

    138. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by thebeige · · Score: 1

      Still unsure why I was taught to count to 10, nothing goes to 10 except for shitty mp3 players. Mine however goes to 11.

    139. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Dahan · · Score: 1

      Couldn't you be bothered to google?
      http://ipv6.cybernode.com/list-of-ipv6-only-sites

      Almost none of those are actually IPv6-only sites... they're IPv6-only DNS records (i.e., AAAA with no A) for sites that are available on both IPv4 and IPv6.

      • Google IPv6: I think we all know that Google is available over IPv4
      • Test My IPv6: a test site, but even that is available in an IPv4 version
      • Facebook IPv6: and we all know Facebook is available over IPv4 too
      • bin6.it: OK, this does appear to be an IPv6-only site
      • ipv6.cyups.com: this isn't even an IPv6-only DNS record, much less an IPv6-only site. ipv6.cyups.com has address 173.245.60.44, ipv6.cyups.com has address 173.245.60.121, ipv6.cyups.com has IPv6 address 2400:cb00:2048:1::adf5:3c2c, ipv6.cyups.com has IPv6 address 2400:cb00:2048:1::adf5:3c79
      • Zone403.eu: LOL, this one is even more of a failure... it's IPv4-only; there's no AAAA record at all!
      • onet.pl: just change the ipv6 to www for the v4 site
      • Plurk: same--change ipv6 to www

      I could go on, but you get the picture... it looks like there are only 2 IPv6-only sites on that list.

    140. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Ah you missed the key strategy security. Most IPV4 OSes (including Windows and OSX) setup IPV6 tunnels over IPV4. IPV4 security stuff doesn't understand tunnelled traffic, they just ignore it. Ignoring it ain't blocking it.

      Mary Jane in accounting getting onto IPV6 Facebook and Sam Smith legal getting on his favorite porn site at work is what's going to force networks to make the switch.

    141. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by sdguero · · Score: 1

      Do you often experience awkward silences when you explain to people how you aren't doing something because it costs more than your monthly netflix bill? It's because they are being polite. Stop being a cheap ass.

    142. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He IS a Freemason!

    143. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      They minimum sized subnet is /64. Think about taking each IP address on the internet and replacing it with an entire internet. Now imagine doing a port scan of that.

       

    144. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      That is exactly what the carriers are planning for. They are going to pool all their phone customers so they have static IPV6 addresses, and share a pool of IPV4 for when they are on the network. They then are going to do the same thing with home users, except that home users will get an entire /64 subnet for all their devices. And the entire subnet will have to get a pooled address.

      Then if that gets too crowded next step is pooling at the port level using NAT.

    145. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      The vast, VAST majority of us only need IPv6 on the Internet. We are perfectly fine with IPv4 internally.

      No you aren't. v4 security devices don't understand what's happening with v6 traffic tunneling. So in that kind of setup you end up with lots of v6 tunnels running over v4 which you can't control.

    146. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by smpoole7 · · Score: 1

      > tunneling ...

      NO. I said "translate," and that's what I meant. (Part of the problem I've had when dealing with IPv6 Fanbois is that they think only inside their box and within their rules.)

      Tunneling essentially refers to encapsulating (for example) an IPv4 stream with headers so that it can be sent over IPv6; at the other end, the additional headers are stripped off and viola, you have IPv4 again. You're not actually "translating" the IP addresses.

      Look at it this way: inside my IPv4 network, I'm already using NAT. Someone browses to Google.com, the router NATs it out onto the Internet, brings the response back in, then returns it to the original requesting PC.

      It would be *criminally* simple to add IPv6-to-4 translation to that. When my browser requests "somenewipv6site.com," (i.e., an IPv6-only site), the router/modem/whatever notes that its an IPv6 address. It does NAT stuff, send the request in IPv6 form, then translates back to IPv4 for the internal network.

      Simple, quick, easy. I could do it by patching some code into a good caching DNS server. Dnsmasq could do it.

      Ergo, it will only be a matter of time until little $100 "Blue Boxes" appear that will do just what I described. You enter the name of the site into your Web browser, mail client, or whatever, and the Magic Box(tm) takes care of the details for you. Your internal network can stay IPv4 until the heat death of the universe, if you so choose.

      One last time: if I wanted to, I could choose not to even use TCP/IP internally. I could use something else entirely different. The fact that I probably wouldn't is beside the point.

      --
      Cogito, igitur comedam pizza.
    147. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Carnildo · · Score: 1

      My guess is comcast & co really want this because they want to try and bill customers based on number of machines.

      They can do that already. By monitoring the source ports, sequence numbers and similar information coming out of a NAT box, you can get a very good idea of how many computers are behind that box.

      --
      "They redundantly repeated themselves over and over again incessantly without end ad infinitum" -- ibid.
    148. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Not for very long. And redistributing addresses more evenly means making routing tables more complex and they are already so complex that they are introducing latency.

    149. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Sure.

      Imagine two subnets.

      (A) has static IP addresses and a firewall configured to block all unrequested traffic.
      (B) has NAT.

      now lets handle fixed addresses
      (C) is like A but has a few preset open ports on some machines.
      (D) is like B but has some static routes.

      What's the difference?

    150. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      What could have been a smooth transition is now going to be a massive messy expensive rush crisis of a transition because ISPs couldn't see past their next quarter profit results

      When I was a kid we had this thing called government regulation which was designed to move companies to act in the common interest even when not acting was in their individual interest.

    151. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Sure there is. The market rate for IPs is now $9 each (Microsoft purchase). If someone offered to buy MIT's addresses it might be worth $100m to change.

      Now assume the situation is getting worse and we re up at $40 / each.

    152. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      The vast majority of home users get their router from their ISP. Compared to the cost of reconfiguring their entire network at every stage the price of the home router ain't much.

      I agree though this should have been fixed. So do the carriers themselves, most are already going to be forcing this issue this year.

    153. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Lots of Android devices are on v6 already, possibly the majority are. Android is fine. Mac, Windows and Linux (assuming last 10 years OS) should be fine. And your ISP will provide you with a modem / home network.

      And your /. user number is far too low to be thinking you should be able to use tech equipment forever.

    154. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Phones are the first to go to v6. Many smartphones are already on v6.

    155. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When we return to a flat internet, we will be able to video conference from one PC directly to another, anywhere in the world.

      So we'll be able to look at strangers' dicks at the speed of light? Awesome!

    156. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Sure but that will be very late in the process. Companies are going to spend years on dual stack. When IPv4 addresses are say $250 / yr / each companies are going to sell them fast.

    157. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Successful troll successful?

    158. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by tftp · · Score: 1

      You could either get into the 21st century and enable IPv6 on your network

      Sorry, my ISP is IPv4 only, and I don't have a spare change to the tune of a few million dollars to buy enough shares in that ISP and order them to upgrade.

      Besides, why should I bother? Everything works fine. I have a static IP, and immediately it gets NATed to 192.168.x.y ... I have no need for IPv6, though I run it locally for a few years already. I was considering 6to4 and other solutions, but it is a large project that requires a separate box with FreeBSD on it (for pfsense) that would burn 100W per hour... I could possibly go for a small plastic box, like DD-WRT, that does the 6to4, the firewall, dhcp6 and the DNS... but I'm not aware of existence of such an animal.

      If one day I have to switch to IPv6 I'm ready on my side. I only need a new router from the ISP. Once it is plugged in I will have to upgrade a few Linksys routers, but that should be tolerable. Unfortunately some of my hardware (video cameras, 802.11a bridges, Ethernet to RS485 and like boxes) are IPv4-only, which calls for keeping IPv4 around. But that's OK - as long as that ISP box offers that option as well. As I see there is an awful lot that the ISP router has to do...

    159. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by tftp · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure that the future of the internet is hierarchically organized network with clear distinction who can serve and who can only consume content.

      This is already the case; most consumer ISPs do not allow servers, and do not distribute static IPs by default. They may or may not actively monitor violations, and their DHCP may be pretty static, but the contract forbids servers, and your IP may be changed at any time without warning.

      On the other hand, business class connections - which cost 200-300% more - come with static IPs and no filtering of any kind, and with techs on call to fix up your reverse DNS whenever you need it. That's the connection I have here (for a number of reasons.)

      If consumer ISPs switch to IPv6 en masse they will most certainly try to differentiate the consumer connection and the business connection, lest they lose a lot of income. Which means that you may get an IPv6 address ... one per computer, and you need to pay for each computer that you plug into your new shiny IPv6 firewall. Also that firewall will be provisioned to deny you a physical possibility of running any meaningful services, unless running a Web server on port 11742 is OK with you.

      to the detriment of user's personal freedom

      The freedom to publish on the Web is not a right; but your ability to pay the going rate and get that freedom is a right. So far nobody denies you that right; just don't expect it to be a "free beer."

    160. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by tftp · · Score: 1

      It's because they are being polite. Stop being a cheap ass.

      Nice reference to being polite there.

      Anyhow, not everyone is a spendthrift. I have enough money to afford a few new routers when time comes; however I won't do it just for fun. The later I buy them the better and the cheaper they will be. Besides, investing $200 to have the same Internet as before is not very interesting.

    161. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by PybusJ · · Score: 1

      See companies like Hurricane Electric, a large part of their current success has been IPv6 support. That story alone shows that it really is possible to make more money because you do support v6 while others don't. Now soon, customers will soon start to run away if you don't have v6. That day might well be the next 6th of June!

      My personal hope is that after switching on IPv6 for google.com, Google then announce that as of a date a few months in the future sites which are available via v6 in addition to v4 would get a boost in search ranking. It would only take a small boost in Google juice to spur adoption and ensure that web hosting outfits provided IPv6 pretty quickly to avoid losing custom. Once the vast majority of the services are available on IPv6, v6 on the client becomes much easier.

    162. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by jmorris42 · · Score: 1

      > People saying "I'm never going to upgrade to IPv6" come across the same as people saying "I'm never going to upgrade from IE6" - in short, idiots.

      No they aren't. If you upgrade your browser from IE6 you, as in YOU personally, instantly experience benefits. Sites that were broken now work, you won't get 0wn3d, etc. But for the first billion ipv6 adopters there won't be any visible benefit at first since everything must be kept working for the majority. Once a critical mass supports ipv6 some services will begin making use of features it provides like direct NATless connections and a whole new round of the P2P wars will begin. And those stuck behind NAT, and by then that will be most people with consumer internet service, will be left out of the fun and begin agitating to get in, even to the point of being willing to fork over cash to upgrade their gateway devices. It is getting that first billion to do it with no visible gain that is the tricky part. It is the improbable step #2 in the underpants gnome bit:

      Step one: Announce IPV6

      Step two: A billion people spend Sagans for no apparent reason.

      Step three: Profit!

      That step two is almost as silly as the original blank one now isn't it?

      --
      Democrat delenda est
    163. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by bbn · · Score: 1

      How would a DNS server's IPv6 address be advertised in such a manner?

      Stateless DHCPv6. There is also a RA option that can specify DNS servers, but few operatingsystems currently support it.

    164. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Accelerated IPv6 support could have used some loosely adapted equivalent to the Y2K project. Except that there was no easily identifiable, immovable drop-dead date. And of course Y2K got a bad rep in some quarters due to overspending and ironically, the highly successful systems remediations.

      I still maintain that the commercial failure of Windows Vista had it's own role to play in delaying IPv6. Every little speedbump became another reason not to act on IPv6. Fortunately Win7 has succeeded in the marketplace and removed that excuse.

      A former boss of mine, now a network manager, made me sad. As recently as 2 years ago he ruthlessly squashed an internal proposal to start supporting IPv6. Even to gain the configuration potential to do so! He claimed that there "was NO reason, NONE" for spending the money and time to upgrade. This is an intelligent man with a whole career's worth of IT knowledge. So the resistance to IPv6 is/was deeply rooted and involved far more than just cheapo ISP's and lazy home router manufacturers.

    165. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by bbn · · Score: 1

      /128 is a host...

    166. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by smpoole7 · · Score: 1

      > Sounds prone to break

      Why? Millions of routers -- many of which are built in to the DSL modems that litter the landscape -- have been doing NAT with IPv4 for years. This just isn't that deep and it's extremely mature technology.

      Currently, it goes something like this:

      1. My PC, on a "192" internal address, wants to go to Google.
      2. DNS lookup, get IPv4 address for Google.
      3. The request goes through the default gateway in the router. On the way out, the router records my "192" IP address, changes the source to its own (Internet-routable) one, tags with a unique port number, and sends it to Google.
      4. Google's response comes back to my router. It looks up my "192" address with that unique port number and returns the response to my PC. I gets my web page, wipe hands on pants and repeat as needed.

      All you have to do to translate IPv6 transparently is add a couple of steps and change the last two slightly.

      1-1/2: Everyone's internal PC uses the router for DNS. (Many DHCP servers already set it this way by default, BTW.)
      2-1/2: When the router looks up the actual IP address, if it's IPv6, the router stores the IPv6 number and returns a unique, but made-up, IPv4 address as the response to the requester. (Or, tags it with a unique port number. Whatever. Just some way to tag it.)
      3: On the way out in this case, the router sees the unique tag, knows that I'm trying to get to Google. It changes the request to true-blue IPv6 with a port number (or some other tagging), then sends it to Google.
      4: On the way back, the router notes the tag, sees that I made the request, and sends it back to my IPv4 PC. Once again, rinse and repeat as needed.

      In other words, the router transparently handles all of that messy IPv6 stuff for me. If IPv6 is needed, it translates on the fly. That's just what I came up with off the top of my head. Someone smarter than me could easily refine this.

      If I'm ever forced to do so, I'll write my own code, probably based on dnsmasq or some other open source DNS cacher. But I'm not going to go through the expense and headache of changing my entire internal IPv4 network just to satisfy the IPv6 "purists" when there's NO NEED FOR ME TO DO SO.

      To repeat: this just is NOT that deep.

      --
      Cogito, igitur comedam pizza.
    167. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by smpoole7 · · Score: 1

      > v4 security devices don't understand what's happening with v6 traffic tunneling

      Whew. I'm beginning to be amazed at the straight-laced, "we must do it this way because it's the proper and pure way to do it" mentality on the part of IPv6 Fanbois.

      My (relatively) small internal network, BEING v4, uses precisely ZERO v6 traffic tunneling. ZERO. :)

      (Whew again.)

      The only place where such tunneling will take place is OUTSIDE of my premises.

      Ergo, should I ever bang up against it, all I would need is some translation/conversion method at my interface with The Tubes(tm).

      (Pause)

      I have to say, this entire thread has been an education in the "You MUST switch to IPv6 everywhere and right away!" mentality. I'll say that much. The arguments just assume that everyone will directly connect ever computer inside the premises directly to the Internet.

      Even if we switch entirely to IPv6, I can assure you: that will NEVER happen in our facilities. Never, ever. We will ALWAYS isolate our internal networks from the rest of the world.

      --
      Cogito, igitur comedam pizza.
    168. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Even if we switch entirely to IPv6, I can assure you: that will NEVER happen in our facilities. Never, ever. We will ALWAYS isolate our internal networks from the rest of the world.

      No one is saying firewalling isn't going to be important.

      The only place where such tunneling will take place is OUTSIDE of my premises.

      Nope, that's one problem with the ignore it approach. Suzie in accounting wants to get on Facebook, which you block the v4 address for. So her computer tunnels out to the v6 connection using a gateway. Or Dave in facilities jumps on your wireless with his cell phone and starts hitting v6 resources, his phone is setup when using wireless to use a carrier provided v4to6 gateway. You already have lots of devices that tunnel, what is missing right now is resources that internal systems want on the v6 networks. In a world with lots of v6 there is no such thing as a pure v4 network.

      As more gateways appear and more v6 traffic appears you will get tunnels. You don't have them yet. You probably won't have them all throughout 2012. But if you do nothing by 2014 your v4 network will look inside out from any hacker looking from a v6 perspective.

      You don't want to expose your internal network you need to have v6 aware security devices.

    169. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by fluffy99 · · Score: 1

      Why wait for the next version of Windows? Windows newer than XP has supported IPv6 out of the box (XP just involves a driver install), Linux has supported v6 out of the box for over 10 years, OS X supports it out of the box, Android supports it out of the box, lots of Apple hardware Just Works with v6, etc. Just setting the router to send RAs should see most of the clients on an average network automatically start to use v6, no need to upgrade the OS or reconfigure it.

      Supporting it and supporting it well are two different things. Aside from the OS, you also have to consider whether your apps support it. Do you know of a an antivirus, host IDS software, and security scanner that fully supports IPv6? That's the number one reason many large businesses and DOD are forgoing IPv6.

    170. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by fluffy99 · · Score: 1

      There's no reason for saying that. IPv6 is just another cyber space, there's nothing fancy, new, with it, it should be commonly accepted as something we MUST have, right now.

      Except that it's not. There are billions of addresses - entire A blocks - locked up in early-adopter organizations that could be made available. For example, the US Post Office doesn't really need it's own A block. Nor do most organizations who own them. And B blocks? Thousands are unneeded. My old university has a B block and it's ridiculous...it's all behind a firewall except for a few numbers anyway. For most orgs, it's just that the money that these big blocks could be sold for doesn't exceed the cost of renumbering to 10.x internally. It will someday soon.

      We're years away from ipv4 exhaustion.

      It's ironic that the reason some companies like Comcast are moving to IPv6 on their infrastructure, is so they can sell the IPv4 blocks. It's certainly not to provide better customer connectivity.

    171. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by smash · · Score: 1

      Maybe I should refine my equation above. If lost revenue due to lost customers + cost to deploy more ipv4 cost to deploy ipv6, guess what happens. This is the business case, and for many/most ISPs the numbers simply do not add up yet.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    172. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by smash · · Score: 1

      err... rather: Maybe I should refine my equation above. If lost revenue due to lost customers + cost to deploy more ipv4 IS LESS THAN cost to deploy ipv6, guess what happens. This is the business case, and for many/most ISPs the numbers simply do not add up yet.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    173. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by smash · · Score: 1

      Indeed IPv6 support is what drove me to the ISP i currently use, and what influenced the purchase of my current router...

      Same here. We are not the majority of users however, most don't give a crap. Spending millions on new hardware to keep a few geeks happy is not going to bring in revenue. Until ipv6 can be monetized, it is not likely to happen. And at the moment, 99.99% of the world don't care.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    174. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by rdebath · · Score: 1

      Geeeze, you lot!

      Okay, firstly Enry (630!) the switch from address classes to CIDR actually became the problem. It caused a tremendous blow up in the size of the routing tables. IPv6 is a switch back away from CIDR, not all the way to classful but far enough to control the size of the tables at the cost of 'address overallocation'. Allocating each IPv4/32 independently would have required something like a 30GB routing table compared to the current IPv4 of quite a few megabytes and the IPv6 of tens of kilobytes.

      This means that a /64 is the smallest network that will be allocated, as it contains 2^64 host addresses it's big enough for any private network.
      Now, for the rest of the comment chain: Hurricane Electric are allocating TWO /64 subnets when you connect to them. The first has just TWO hosts on it XXX::1/128 for their end of the tunnel and XXX::2/128 for your end. The second subnet XXY::/64 is for your internal network and is to be allocated to the machine's (second) ethernet connector and all the hosts "on the same wire". HE will allocate up to 5 pairs of in this fashion but if you have a more complicated network they are eager to allocate you a /48 (with 65536 networks on it) rather than the second /64.

      Note, nothing stops you doing CIDR on your single /64 and all it really means is that you have to use DHCP6 and cannot use the privacy extensions. Also CIDR is a reasonable way of subdividing a /48, but CIDR has been ruled out for the global internet until such time (if ever) that addresses start getting scarce again.

      Oh, and if you want another scary number; 4294967296 IPv6 /48 networks were allocated a while back to "6to4"; that is 65536 networks to every single IPv4 address. That many were allocated only because you need one /64 for each internal network and a /128 on a different /64 to configure the tunnel adapter properly.

    175. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      Or I could just wish you all happy days in your little sealed-off IPv6 world until such time as it becomes relevant to the rest of us.

      <shrug> your call. I was asked for information, I provided it, you found that you couldn't access it. I frankly don't care whether you can access the whole internet or not, but its only going to get worse for you as more and more content becomes v6-only.

    176. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      The quality of the site (judging by its copy in cache) impresses no less than the small number of IPv6-only sites it lists. Aren't you ashamed to show the list of 15 (fifteen!) IPv6 only sites (with one test site and one user's home page among them) as the proof that IPv6 connectivity is worth setting up?

      First of all, the amount of research I did amounted to googling and picking the top link. I'm sure you could find plenty more ipv6-only sites.

      Secondly, at no point did I state that that site was "proof that IPv6 connectivity is worth setting up", I simply used it to demonstrate that the original poster was incorrect when they stated that there were *no* IPv6-only services on the internet.

    177. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by kasperd · · Score: 1

      So they are claiming that they have nearly 18 million unique devices to manage?

      Do you think they are able to achieve a 100% HD Ratio? If they are, that must mean they have more capable people working there than in all the other companies in the communication industry. If I was to name a company that was attracting all the talent in the industry, Virgin Media was not one I was going to think of.

      More likely they have an HD Ratio in the 80-90% range just like the rest of the industry. Let's do the numbers again with that kind of HD ratio. In 10.0.0.0/8 you have 24 bits to make use of. With an HD Ratio in the 80-90% range you end up with effectively utilizing 20 or 21 bits. That means 1-2 million devices, not 18 million devices.

      Instead of just working with 10.0.0.0/8 let's take the larger sum you mentioned. 17891328 and an HD ratio of 80% gives us 17891328^0.8=634036 and with an HD ratio of 90% it gives us 17891328^0.9=3368048. So we end up with somewhere between 0.6 and 3.4 million devices depending on how much administrative overhead you can tolerate.

      --

      Do you care about the security of your wireless mouse?
    178. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by unixisc · · Score: 1

      Anything that's based on FreeBSD - like iOS is - has to be supporting IPv6, unless somebody was stupid enough to disable all IPv6 features while doing the port. On the contrary, Apple has been one of the best companies when it comes to implementing IPv6 - both in their OSs, as well as their NetBSD based AirPort routers.

    179. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      VoIP is one of the most obvious applications for IPv6.

      Yes, but it is also an application that frequently relies on hardware devices that don't do IPv6. For example, despite my network being IPv6 enabled, my SPA3102 FXO/FXS interface only does IPv4, and my UTStarcom SIP phone also only does IPv4 (barely... the poor quality of the firmware is only surpassed by the poor quality of their customer support). Luckilly in these restricted applications it largely doesn't matter too much because those devices are talking to a single specific server, and that server's configuration can be bodged so it happens to work reliably through NAT (at the expense of certain functionality such as peer to peer calling - the RTP media stream pretty much has to go between that server and the phone rather than communicating directly to another peer).

      Of course, once you don't need to worry about NAT, you can safely remove those restrictions and the world is a better place. :)

      This is one area where IAX2 seems to be much more robust than SIP. IAX2 supports direct peer-to-peer media, just like SIP; but IAX2 starts be routing the media via the server and actually tests if peer to peer going to work before switching to it. So where you have NAT problems that break peer-to-peer media, the call still works by being proxied via the server. With SIP, no such testing happens and this is why failed NAT traversal sometimes causes one-way audio, etc. So if you're using SIP, you basically have to decide when you configure your server whether to proxy the media or make it peer-to-peer, and choosing the latter is unsafe when clients might be behind NAT.

      Modern game consoles aren't that big of a concern, as typically the OS and network protocol stack live on the game media itself, and not on the hardware.

      Really? The only console I own is a PSX, so I don't really have any experience with modern consoles, but I was under the impression that they largely had a built-in OS (shipping a whole OS with each game seems a bit crazy anyway...), which also provides features like media-centre functionality, etc. for when you're not playing games.

    180. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      I could go on, but you get the picture... it looks like there are only 2 IPv6-only sites on that list.

      And so it successfully served the intended purpose of demonstrating that the original poster's assertion that there are *no* ipv6-only sites was incorrect?

    181. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      > tunneling ...

      NO. I said "translate," and that's what I meant. (Part of the problem I've had when dealing with IPv6 Fanbois is that they think only inside their box and within their rules.)

      Yes, did you actually read what I posted? Translation of IPv4 to IPv6 is only possible if you proxy the high level protocols (and then only in certain cases). This isn't something you can do generically. Translation of IPv6 to IPv4 is, however, easy (NAT64).

      Look at it this way: inside my IPv4 network, I'm already using NAT. Someone browses to Google.com, the router NATs it out onto the Internet, brings the response back in, then returns it to the original requesting PC.

      It would be *criminally* simple to add IPv6-to-4 translation to that.

      Yes, it would be very simple to do IPv6-to-IPv4 translation (i.e. client on IPv6, server on IPv4) - this is NAT64, but this is not relevant to what you were proposing (which was IPv4-to-IPv6 translation)

      When my browser requests "somenewipv6site.com," (i.e., an IPv6-only site), the router/modem/whatever notes that its an IPv6 address. It does NAT stuff, send the request in IPv6 form, then translates back to IPv4 for the internal network.

      No, this demonstrates a significant lack of understanding about how the internet work. Your browser does *not* send a request to "somenewipv6site.com" to your router. Making a web request follows the following sequence:
      1. The browser makes a DNS lookup for somenewipv6site.com.
      2. The browser makes a connection to the IP address that the DNS server returned.
      3. The browser sends a request over that connection.
      If the browser is on an IPv4-only network and somenewipv6site.com has no IPv4 address, the DNS server won't return an IPv4 address, so step (2) never happens.

      It is true that the router could run an HTTP proxy server - the browser makes a request to the proxy rather than performing the DNS lookup itself, and this would work fine. But only for HTTP. You would have to have a different proxy server for each protocol - there isn't a *generic* way of doing this in the same way as NAT64 does the opposite.

    182. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by kasperd · · Score: 1

      by my count the direct /8 allocations compose about 700 million addresses.

      But most likely only a few million of those could be returned.

      --

      Do you care about the security of your wireless mouse?
    183. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      You could either get into the 21st century and enable IPv6 on your network

      Sorry, my ISP is IPv4 only, and I don't have a spare change to the tune of a few million dollars to buy enough shares in that ISP and order them to upgrade.

      Why does it matter that your ISP doesn't do IPv6? There have been plenty of tunnelling technologies around for years that make that a non-issue. Look up 6to4, 6in4 and teredo.

      Besides, why should I bother?

      Because you want to access an IPv6 resource? At least, that's why I presume you're replying to this thread...
      I posted a link, got a reply saying it didn't work, I explained that they needed IPv6 in order to access it and I got a bunch of people asking why they should bother. given that the whole reason I said they needed to get IPv6 was because they were trying to access an IPv6 resource, the answer to "why should I bother" is clearly because you want to access an IPv6 resource. If you don't want to access an IPv6 resource then no one is telling you to bother (although you'll find that the number of IPv6 resources will gradually increase and at some point you'll be wondering why you can't access a bunch of stuff everyone else can access...)

      Everything works fine. I have a static IP, and immediately it gets NATed to 192.168.x.y ... I have no need for IPv6,

      Then that's fine. You have no need of IPv6, you don't need to access any IPv6 stuff, you don't need any IPv6 users to access your systems, so don't set up IPv6, no one's forcing you to.

      I was considering 6to4 and other solutions, but it is a large project that requires a separate box with FreeBSD on it (for pfsense) that would burn 100W per hour... I could possibly go for a small plastic box, like DD-WRT, that does the 6to4, the firewall, dhcp6 and the DNS... but I'm not aware of existence of such an animal.

      I don't use 6to4 because I have a native v6 connection, but I do use a Sheevaplug as my home server (runs my firewall, a MythTV backend, DNS server, cacti, nagios, file server, VoIP server, etc.) and it works pretty well, draws very little power and would have no trouble running a 6to4 gateway. Running a 100W server as an always on box is a bit crazy in this day in age unless it's doing something pretty heavyweight, certainly no need for a home server.

    184. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      > People saying "I'm never going to upgrade to IPv6" come across the same as people saying "I'm never going to upgrade from IE6" - in short, idiots.

      No they aren't. If you upgrade your browser from IE6 you, as in YOU personally, instantly experience benefits. Sites that were broken now work, you won't get 0wn3d, etc.

      For the first people to dump IE6 there were very few direct benefits. The sites worked in IE anyway (because the web developers were going through hell to support the 99% of their users who inisted on using a broken piece of crap). Yeah, so it was more secure, but that's not a very tangable benefit for most users.

    185. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by kasperd · · Score: 1

      If you bother to look at the consumption rate you'd realise that even if all of these addresses were returned to the pool they would buy a few weeks and then we'd be right back where we started.

      They may have lasted two months if they were returned a year ago. But if they were returned today, they would be consumed as quickly as APNIC could file a request. Extrapolating the usage trend in the APNIC region from before the pool ran out suggests that they by now could file a request for 10 /8 networks to meet actual demand.

      We are well past the point where returning addresses will do any good. They will be consumed just as quickly as they are returned, and doing so will fragment allocations even more leading to an explosion in the routing table size.

      Those who actually have unused addresses, which they could return have a few options:

      • They can return the addresses, which will allow somebody else to postpone the work they need to do by a couple of weeks, but does nothing to solve any problems.
      • They can try to figure out when the market price on IPv4 addresses peaks and try to sell them for monetary gain.
      • They can act in the best common interest and hold onto the addresses until they find a way those address could be used to ease the transition from IPv4 to IPv6 for everybody.
      --

      Do you care about the security of your wireless mouse?
    186. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      > Sounds prone to break

      Why? Millions of routers -- many of which are built in to the DSL modems that litter the landscape -- have been doing NAT with IPv4 for years.

      We're not talking about NAT. We're talking about mangling DNS results into IPv4 addresses and *then* NATting them. Sure, the NAT bit is mature and will work, I'm not so sure about the DNS bit...

      Mangling DNS, on the surface, looks fine. But there are foreseeable problems.

      For example, how long do you cache the ephemeral "made up" DNS response on the router? I mean, when a client does a DNS lookup you generate an ephemeral address and then need to remember this address and the IPv6 address it must be mapped to so you can catch connections to that address and NAT them to the right place. You can't remember this forever (memory is limited), but you don't know how long the clients are going to keep using that IP address after the initial DNS lookup. If the client looks up the name every time it connects then you just need to cache for TTL seconds, but many clients won't do that - a lot will do a DNS lookup when they start up and assume the address is never going to change (yes, this is bad but guess what - there's lots of badly written software around).

      And the aforementioned problem that mangling DNS will utterly break DNSSEC.

      And the fact that servers on IPv6 are probably going to assume there is no NAT anywhere, whcih is going to be important for some protocols - expect peer-to-peer stuff like VoIP to break spectacularly in your configuration.

      If I'm ever forced to do so, I'll write my own code, probably based on dnsmasq or some other open source DNS cacher. But I'm not going to go through the expense and headache of changing my entire internal IPv4 network just to satisfy the IPv6 "purists" when there's NO NEED FOR ME TO DO SO.

      To repeat: this just is NOT that deep.

      Strikes me that the effort of writing your own code and then having to continually deal with ongoing broken shit that happens as a result far outweighs the effort of just dual-stacking a network. Your comments come across more as a "I'm going to do things my way even if I have to go through hell and put up with a load of stuff never working properly" stick-it-to-the-man type of thing...

    187. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by kasperd · · Score: 1

      Some DNS servers are completely broken and drop requests for an AAAA record. If your local caching DNS server is doing this then you basically end up seeing all web requests, etc. being slow since the browser will look up an AAAA record to find out if the website is accessible over v6 and the DNS server won't respond.

      Some DNS servers are worse than that. They will not only fail to lookup the AAAA record, but in the process of attempting, they will put garbage into their cache and cause subsequent A lookups for the same domain to return an incorrect IP address.

      --

      Do you care about the security of your wireless mouse?
    188. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by kasperd · · Score: 1

      But what I got was this... ...the run rate is such that if we reclaim ALL IPv4 address space, including yours and mine that we're using right now, we still run out in 2019.

      I tried to do similar calculations a little while back and came up with 2020 as the time we would run out. So I think your calculations are right, the one year difference just means a bit of uncertainty. Another way to interpret the result of this calculation is that by 2019 there will be more devices on IPv6 only than the total number of devices that will fit in IPv4.

      --

      Do you care about the security of your wireless mouse?
    189. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Enry · · Score: 1

      Okay, firstly Enry (630!) the switch from address classes to CIDR actually became the problem. It caused a tremendous blow up in the size of the routing tables. IPv6 is a switch back away from CIDR, not all the way to classful but far enough to control the size of the tables at the cost of 'address overallocation'. Allocating each IPv4/32 independently would have required something like a 30GB routing table compared to the current IPv4 of quite a few megabytes and the IPv6 of tens of kilobytes.

      The problem I was addressing wasn't routing - it was the lack of IP addresses and how just because someone has 18 million addresses doesn't mean that all of them are available.

      This means that a /64 is the smallest network that will be allocated, as it contains 2^64 host addresses it's big enough for any private network.

      Where have we heard that before? (j/k)

    190. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by swillden · · Score: 1

      /128 is a host...

      Only if you want to break stateless autoconfig and a lot of other assumptions.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    191. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by DarkOx · · Score: 1

      As I pointed out in my original post there are problems.

      Again this require a little more smarts in the router, after you build a fake_ipv4ipv6 pair you keep a table, whenver a packet comes through on the flow you update a $tombstone value with the current time, periodically you have a thread the sweeps the table and drops entries where (now() - $tombstone) > DNS TTL. Sounds complex but things like netfilter already similar facilities like xt_recent and those little home routers are getting more powerful every so it will be okay.

      You could do all this on a dumb little consume box, and I think you could make them work okay for PCs, tablets, an settop boxes using the WWW most of time. It will certainly be very broken for other applications, and there are plenty of websites that do use shitty load balancers that send browser redirects to IP rather than DNS address. Still its better than leaving those v4 only devices with no ability to connect to v6 hosts.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    192. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by sdguero · · Score: 1

      I said they are polite, not me... I'm a dick. ;)

    193. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm always stuned by the amount of ignorance about NAT.
      So, don't panic. Your ISP already know how many machines there are behind your NAT if your only protection is the NAT. The packets are full of information about them even after crossing.
      I'm really glade that IPv6 is gonna be rolled out. A lot of people will finally have to learn how a network work, what was NAT exactly doing and how to configure a firewall.
      It might mean less idiots on Slashdot in the end (but I doubt that).

    194. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by unixisc · · Score: 1

      You are right - for any LAN, address exhaustion is not an issue, so within your LAN, you could use IPv4, IPX, DECnet or AppleTalk or anything else that your equipment happens to understand. That would not be an issue, except maybe the question of equipment having to understand IPv6 AND another protocol. Which is fine now, but may be problematic in the long run, when OSs would want to shed legacy support.

      The one place I can think of where it would be good to have an IPv6 private network is for VPNs. In IPv4, organizations just used private Class C or Class B addresses, and that was that. However, connecting 2 networks - both of which had common addresses like 172.16.0.10 was problematic, which is why in IPv6, instead of using link-local addresses (0xfe80::/10), they use site-local addresses (0xfd00::/10). Previously, the idea was to come up w/ something called unique-local unicast, which would allow every node in the world to have a unique non-routable address, but that never materialized. But such a concept, if successfully executed, would made the setting up of IPv6 based VPNs a breeze.

    195. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Yaztromo · · Score: 1

      Really? The only console I own is a PSX, so I don't really have any experience with modern consoles, but I was under the impression that they largely had a built-in OS (shipping a whole OS with each game seems a bit crazy anyway...), which also provides features like media-centre functionality, etc. for when you're not playing games.

      I'll admit up front that the console I'm most familiar with is the PS2, however my understanding is that things haven't really significantly changed in the latest generation of consoles, other than having the built-in software becoming more sophisticated.

      Including a "whole OS" with each game isn't anywhere as bad as you think, as the "OS" in this case is really just a few libraries of common routines, consisting of a boot loader, some libraries for dealing with the common hardware bits (memory cards, controllers, etc.), and perhaps a network stack (should the game support some form of online play). The rest is game code. This isn't an uncommon strategy for embedded systems coding where there is no common UI, no multitasking, etc. In effect, the contents of the disc are just a boot loader and everything needed to run the game being played.

      The interface you get when not playing games can be thought of something akin to a fancy PC BIOS. It can provide all sorts of functionality, but most/all of it tends to go into "hibernation" when game media is run: it's there in the sense that it's binary data exists in the system as firmware (or for newer consoles on-HDD data files), but isn't typically called when a game form optical media is run.

      Downloadable games on the latest generation of consoles may differ in that they may use some form of shared libraries of routines stored on a HDD -- I honestly don't know. But the typical model for optical media based games is that they contain everything they need to run directly on the hardware, and the bits that constitute the "OS" are just a bootloader and some libraries they include to gain access to the bits of common hardware they require, along with some common libraries on top of them, such as the network stack for networked games.

      Yaz

    196. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by CTachyon · · Score: 1

      There's no reason for saying that. IPv6 is just another cyber space, there's nothing fancy, new, with it, it should be commonly accepted as something we MUST have, right now.

      Except that it's not. There are billions of addresses - entire A blocks - locked up in early-adopter organizations that could be made available. For example, the US Post Office doesn't really need it's own A block. Nor do most organizations who own them. And B blocks? Thousands are unneeded. My old university has a B block and it's ridiculous...it's all behind a firewall except for a few numbers anyway. For most orgs, it's just that the money that these big blocks could be sold for doesn't exceed the cost of renumbering to 10.x internally. It will someday soon.

      We're years away from ipv4 exhaustion.

      Great plan: spend man-years of effort forcing the handful of companies with class A blocks to re-architect their networks... only for each class A block to be consumed by the RIRs in 6 months or less. Did you even pay attention to how fast APNIC ate two of its last three /8's? Seriously, this idea can't extend IPv4 by more than 2 or 3 years, even if it works flawlessly and re-IPing is free.

      --
      Range Voting: preference intensity matters
    197. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by bbn · · Score: 1

      The proper term for a /64 is a link. Since there are 128 bits in an address, using the first 64 bits to specify a link leaves the remaining 64 for the host part. For a host all the bits are fixed, so it is a /128.

      Example: The localhost is ::1/128

      baldur@pkunk:~$ ip -6 addr show dev lo
      1: lo: mtu 16436
              inet6 ::1/128 scope host
                    valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever

      I think you are just confusing terms a little. HE will assign you a /48 prefix. This prefix has space for 65536 links of size /64 each. Each link has space for 2^64 hosts, but that is not why we write the address as /64. The number after the slash is the number of bits in the prefix, not the number of bits in the host part of the address.

      For example, some people like to use /127 for point to point links. This means the first 127 bits are prefix and only 1 bit is host, leaving space for only two hosts. One for each end.

      Done ranting. All I wanted to say was: /80 is completely non-standard. It is not the usual size for anything, that be subnet, prefix, links, hosts, or whatever other name you might call something.

    198. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by sysfault · · Score: 1

      Viva la revoluzione, my friend but seriously...are you going to hold out forever?

      Hell Yes!

      If enough of us do it, those profiteering assholes at Big Internet$ will be forced to deal with us on our terms and open up all that extra space they're holding out on.

      What extra space you say? Ever heard of a number greater than 255?

      It's a conspiracy I tell you. They're all in it! Google, Micro$oft, IBM, The Queen, the Vatican, the Getty's, the Rothchild's and Colonel Sanders before he went tits up! They're trying to keep our eyes shut to the truth!

      Wake up! We have all the IPv4 addresses we need! Why at home all my machiens in the 478.921.357.* range!

      You are right! I keep seeing how hackers are connecting to the IPv4 extraspace. Angela Bennett, Stanley Johnson, Acid Burn, CSI-enabled anon hackers, you name it. They KNOW something. One can note the extraspace is allocated only to feds, big umbrella corps and nsa-like agencies. Power to the people! I want my 666 ipv4 address! ... and a .mil name. So I look cool in front of my geek friends, an ipv6 address won't do it.

    199. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by unixisc · · Score: 1

      Retrieving public IPv4 would be a pain. Let's take one of those early adopters cited above - MIT, which has 18.x.x.x, and which would have some 16m routable addresses as a result. Their network configuration would probably be the classful address, and they may have hierarchically split those b/w various departments.

      People above was talking about what would be the incentive for anyone to migrate to IPv6, but even less compelling is - why would any organization want to change a simple network configuration that's been working for them for years, just b'cos there is a global shortage? If MIT were to choose to turn, say, 18.128.x.x over to ARIN, they'd have to completely reconfigure their network, which may be a Class A network, to a CIDR network. What on earth would that gain them at all? It would make more sense for them to set up a brand new IPv6 network, slowly migrate everything there, and once it's all done and if they don't need IPv4 anymore, they can then turn the entire 18.x.x.x back to ARIN. Which in turn will provide only 16 million addresses to the public. In fact, it would make more sense for HP to bring all of DEC's surviving personnel under HP's 15.x.x.x and turn over DEC's entire 16.x.x.x over to ARIN - if they haven't done so already.

      It's true that the initial allocation of IPv4 addresses was badly done - not only the assignment of Class A addresses to companies, but the very assignment of Class A as /8, Class B as /16 and Class C as /24. Had it been done the other way around - Class A as /24 and Class C as /8, the utilization of addresses would have been a lot better. At any rate, reclaiming IPv4 addresses is a worthless exercise - much better idea is to get everyone to IPv6.

    200. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yup I nearly typoed it to 2^640k addresses. :-)

    201. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On my fully updated IE6 on XP Pro SP3, GMail works just fine WITHOUT changing the user agent or version reply. I just checked.

    202. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Pieroxy · · Score: 1

      On my fully updated IE6 on XP Pro SP3, GMail works just fine WITHOUT changing the user agent or version reply. I just checked.

      Which wasn't the question. Google developped a version SPECIFICALLY for the piece of shit that is IE6. But you don't get the nice interface that they've developed since.

    203. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by kasperd · · Score: 1

      If MIT were to choose to turn, say, 18.128.x.x over to ARIN, they'd have to completely reconfigure their network

      True. If they were to return any addresses at all, they can no longer announce a route to 18.0.0.0/8. (I don't know if they do announce it like that, but having a class A, they could). If they can no longer announce a /8 they would have to announce smaller blocks. If they were able to squeeze everything into half the addresses they have now, then they could announce a /9 and return the other /9. If that is not possible, then they would be forced to announce their addresses as multiple prefixes and thereby increase the global routing table size and cause problems for everybody else.

      If you have a /8 and would want to return some, you shouldn't do so unless you really think it is feasible to squeeze all your usage into half the space you used to have. You also need to ensure that whatever address space you are left with is enough to last until everybody else have switch to dual stack (or IPv6 only). Since the purpose of returning addresses is to prolong the transition (which isn't much of a useful purpose), it also implies that the more addresses you return, the longer those you have left will have to last. That's not much of an incentive to return addresses.

      Apart from BGP is it really much of a problem to return just small fragments of address space? Do you have to change your network, if you weren't using those addresses anyway? The answer to that question of course is yes. If you were to just change your BGP announcements to stop announcing some addresses that you weren't using anyway, nothing would break yet. However if you were to return them and they got reassigned, things would break, if you had only changed your BGP announcements.

      The reason things would break is that the route to those addresses would still end up somewhere inside the same network, if it originated there. Taking your example, a packet from 18.127.1.2 to 18.128.2.3 would never leave the MIT network even if the destination address had been returned, because the routers inside the MIT network would still think it was a destination within their network. It would propagate through their network until a point where some router would report no route to host. So both the BGP announcements and the routing inside the network would have to be redone before addresses could be returned.

      It would make more sense for them to set up a brand new IPv6 network, slowly migrate everything there, and once it's all done and if they don't need IPv4 anymore, they can then turn the entire 18.x.x.x back to ARIN.

      Even once they have everything set up as dual stack, they would still want to keep IPv4 for as long as there was anybody else on IPv4 only who they wanted to communicate with. The point at which it makes sense to return the IPv4 addresses to ARIN is also the point at which nobody else would want them anymore. It is not like the demand for IPv4 addresses would drop to zero overnight, but it is probably going to be close to it.

      Most likely we will eventually reach a point where nobody would bother to setup new IPv4 networks, and the demand for addresses will decrease. The decrease in demand will not be very visible since there won't be much of a supply either. But those who are already dual stack won't turn down their IPv4 support right away. Just as their isn't much to gain from turning up IPv4 when everybody else is dual stack, there won't be much to gain from turning down IPv4 support.

      At a later date the work to keep administrating IPv4 in parallel with IPv6 will be more significant than the work it will take to remove the last few IPv4 dependencies. At that point people will turn down IPv4 and return the addresses. And nobody will care about the returned addresses.

      It's true that the initial allocation of IPv4 address

      --

      Do you care about the security of your wireless mouse?
    204. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by unixisc · · Score: 1

      There's no reason for saying that. IPv6 is just another cyber space, there's nothing fancy, new, with it, it should be commonly accepted as something we MUST have, right now.

      Except that it's not. There are billions of addresses - entire A blocks - locked up in early-adopter organizations that could be made available. For example, the US Post Office doesn't really need it's own A block. Nor do most organizations who own them. And B blocks? Thousands are unneeded. My old university has a B block and it's ridiculous...it's all behind a firewall except for a few numbers anyway. For most orgs, it's just that the money that these big blocks could be sold for doesn't exceed the cost of renumbering to 10.x internally. It will someday soon.

      We're years away from ipv4 exhaustion.

      Regardless of the justification of how they were allocated, simple fact remains that to return then would break things. As I argued below, if MIT were to return any of the addresses in 18.x.x.x, it could no longer announce a route to 18.0.0.0/8, and would have to reconfigure their entire network. If the routers that they have supporting this is old enough that it doesn't support CIDR, then they couldn't go to a /9, but would have to go to a /12, and need a different class B instead, which would be difficult, if not impossible to get. And in case they need to get new routers, they are going through the same exercise that they need to go through in order to implement IPv6, so it would be a much more constructive exercise to simply implement that, and leave their existing IPv4 network alone for dual stack access to their sites. That way, all sites that need to be IPv4 for whatever reasons would get IPv4 addresses from that pool, while all other sites can get IPv6 addresses.

      In fact, even once organizations start building in IPv6, it will be more of a network addition, rather than a migration. Nobody should give away their existing IPv4 addresses, as that would just disrupt their dual stack arrangements. Instead, everything that needs dual stack can continue to utilize their IPv4 resources, while those that don't can go to IPv6-only configurations. In that sense, this is not so much a transition to IPv6 as much as an addition of IPv6 capabilities.

      Therefore, the lack of any new supply of IPv4 addresses, while IPv6 addresses keep getting added, is what's going to accelarate the move to IPv6

    205. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Vegemeister · · Score: 1

      >Score:3, Insightful
      >Doesn't know what a stateful firewall is

    206. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Vegemeister · · Score: 1

      What we need is a functional market so that addresses can be allocated to the uses that can justify their cost.

      You do realize that would completely fuck up the routing tables? When IPv4 was standardized, 32 bit addresses were chosen because the address space was huge compared to the number of hosts the protocol was expected to support. Turns out we ended up with a lot more hosts.

    207. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      You do realize that would completely fuck up the routing tables?

      There is certainly a balance to be struck between how efficiently the market functions and how large it's impact on the routing table will be. At one extreme they could only allow resale of the original allocation blocks with no subdividing allowed so the sales would have no impact on routing table size but making freeing up blocks for sale trickier. At the other extreme they could allow arbitrary block splitting which as you say would completely fuck up the routing table. The right balance is probably somewhere in between.

      But some kind of market is needed, without it providers who either have lots of IPs in reserver or serve lots of home lusers (who can be gradually pushed behind ISP level NAT to free up space) will the only ones who can continue to offer services to new customers until the vast majority of clients and servers are on dual stack (which i'm pretty sure is still years out)..

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    208. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 on a specific date... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My mistake. That is what I meant. It works fine without changes. Oh, and when I say change the version, I don't necessarily mean up. IE 5.5 might do well if they specifically block IE6.

  2. IPv6 Info by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    For those of you who don't know anything about IPv6, here's the Wikipedia page for it:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPv6/

    Happy reading!

    1. Re:IPv6 Info by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Why isn't Slashdot participating? Didn't they care about an open internet at one point??

    2. Re:IPv6 Info by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Seeing how they can barely handle HTML, CSS and Javascript, IPv6 might be asking too much of them.

    3. Re:IPv6 Info by DesScorp · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      Why isn't Slashdot participating? Didn't they care about an open internet at one point??

      Maybe they're smart enough to realize that the "blackout" won't accomplish a damn thing? Other than pissing off their own users?

      You know what one of the biggest Google searches is right now? "Wikipedia alternative". That means that Wikipedia's competitors now have the kind of audience that they couldn't even pay for if they wanted to. Know what happens if Coke stops selling soda in protest? People look for the nearest Pepsi.

      --
      Life is hard, and the world is cruel
    4. Re:IPv6 Info by ThatsMyNick · · Score: 1

      Yeah the only option is Wikipedia style protest, slashdot can never protest like google.com, in a manner which brings attention to the issue, but does not disrupt normal operations. I am not which google trends you have been looking at, but in USA trends, I see "wikipedia blackout", "pipa", "sopa" and a bunch of unrelated things. "Wikipedia alternative"is not one of them.

    5. Re:IPv6 Info by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Google trends:
      "1. paula deen
      2. seattle weather
      3. jenelle evans
      4. jerry yang
      5. justified
      6. wisconsin recall
      7. wikipedia blackout
      8. scott walker
      9. girl scout cookies
      10. school closings
      11. custer
      12. sopa blackout
      13. southland
      14. walker recall
      15. type 2 diabetes
      16. pipa
      17. jim caldwell
      18. restaurant week
      19. colbert super pac
      20. west memphis three"

    6. Re:IPv6 Info by Nursie · · Score: 2

      There are wikipedia mirrors and rip-off sites that will profit from this for a day, and pretty much only a day.

      In the mean time, every one of those people looking for an alternative has at least been made aware that there's a problem.

    7. Re:IPv6 Info by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      Yes, because there are so many competitors to Wikipedia.

    8. Re:IPv6 Info by Nursie · · Score: 1

      Also if you stick this in Adblock Plus -

      http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:BannerController&cache=/cn.js&303-4

      you can still use the site.

    9. Re:IPv6 Info by CRC'99 · · Score: 1

      Its interesting how TFA says most disabled IPv6 support after the day - however:

      host www.v6.facebook.com
      www.v6.facebook.com has IPv6 address 2620:0:1cfe:face:b00c::3

      # host ipv6.google.com
      ipv6.google.com is an alias for ipv6.l.google.com.
      ipv6.l.google.com has IPv6 address 2404:6800:4006:800::1011

      Looks like of the 3 listed, only 1 backed out - Bing.

      --
      Sendmail is like emacs: A nice operating system, but missing an editor and a MTA.
    10. Re:IPv6 Info by Ksevio · · Score: 1

      Slashdot users are probably already informed on the subject

    11. Re:IPv6 Info by the_other_chewey · · Score: 1

      IPv6 day never was about the separate v6 domains - those existed and worked
      before IPv6 day, and of course keep on working.

      However, IPv6 day added AAAA records to the generic domains,
      www.google.com, www.facebook.com etc.

      And those records are gone again.

      Exception: google whitelists some known-working networks and includes the
      AAAA records in DNS replies to machines in those.

    12. Re:IPv6 Info by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whoosh

    13. Re:IPv6 Info by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This link still works: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

    14. Re:IPv6 Info by Tim4444 · · Score: 1

      You know what one of the biggest Google searches is right now? "Wikipedia alternative".

      It seems SOPA is trending higher than "Wikipedia alternative" at least according to the information available at the moment. It will be interesting to see which really spikes today (if any).

    15. Re:IPv6 Info by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Probably because most slashdot readers are already aware of the matters in question...

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    16. Re:IPv6 Info by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      This isn't about seperate v6 hostnames, many sites have been offering those for years. The problem is for the web seperate v6 hostnames are not a reasonable way forward. Hyperlinks can only point at one hostname after all.

      This is about AAAA records on the main hostnames of the site. Sites have been reluctant to add those because of the fear of degrading performance for people who have computers that preffer v6 and shitty (or even blackholed) v6 connectivity.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    17. Re:IPv6 Info by PRMan · · Score: 1

      Actually, because I use NotScript on Chrome, I didn't see the protest at all until I enabled JavaScript on wikimedia.org.

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    18. Re:IPv6 Info by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know what one of the biggest Google searches is right now? "Wikipedia alternative".

      The top 20 items on Google Trends:

      1. paula deen
      2. seattle weather
      3. portland weather
      4. jim caldwell
      5. jenelle evans
      6. sopa
      7. tim lincecum
      8. sopa blackout
      9. jerry yang
      10. justified
      11. pipa
      12. wisconsin recall
      13. sopa bill
      14. girl scout cookies
      15. stop sopa
        16. southland
      17. colbert super pac
      18. piracy
      19. wikipedia blackout
      20. sopa pipa

      I don't see "Wikipedia alternative" anywhere on there. Try using actual evidence to backup your claims as opposed to just spouting out shit.

    19. Re:IPv6 Info by Zan+Lynx · · Score: 1

      Those are special host names used for IPv6. What they're going to do next is instead of www.v6.facebook.com, www.facebook.com will have an IPv6 address. And instead of ipv6.google.com, it will be just google.com. Both will still have IPv4 addresses, of course.

    20. Re:IPv6 Info by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The blackout is an epic fail. If you browse with Javascript off you can read wikipedia without any problems.

    21. Re:IPv6 Info by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      CENSORED!

    22. Re:IPv6 Info by unixisc · · Score: 1

      What they should do is they should make the IPv6 addresses the default addresses for google.com, facebook.com and so on, but if anybody tries accessing them from IPv4-only nodes, they should be redirected to ipv4.google.com, ipv4.facebook.com, et al

    23. Re:IPv6 Info by unixisc · · Score: 1

      Even if /, itself couldn't be bothered to go IPv6.

    24. Re:IPv6 Info by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exception: google whitelists some known-working networks and includes the

      AAAA records in DNS replies to machines in those.

      That they do.

      ping www.google.com

      Pinging www.l.google.com [2404:6800:4006:802::1014] with 32 bytes of data:
      Reply from 2404:6800:4006:802::1014: time=49ms
      Reply from 2404:6800:4006:802::1014: time=49ms
      Reply from 2404:6800:4006:802::1014: time=49ms
      Reply from 2404:6800:4006:802::1014: time=49ms

      Ping statistics for 2404:6800:4006:802::1014:
      Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
      Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
      Minimum = 49ms, Maximum = 49ms, Average = 49ms

    25. Re:IPv6 Info by kasperd · · Score: 1

      if anybody tries accessing them from IPv4-only nodes, they should be redirected to ipv4.google.com, ipv4.facebook.com

      That is not the way forward either. Such a redirect would work for all those people that don't need it, and it would fail for those people that do need it.

      The main domain should be available over both IPv4 and IPv6. Each client use whatever it has. The problem with that is that some networks are misconfigured, and some software doesn't do fall back to another protocol very well.

      ipv4.google.com already exists for those people who have a misconfigured connection. I think it was set up prior to IPv6 day last year, and it will probably stay around for many years to come. But a redirection like you suggest won't work for those people with a broken connection because you cannot send a redirect back to a client that is unable to contact the server in the first place. For the majority of users where things just work that redirect would work, but it wouldn't be desired. The goal is for the transition to happen with the majority of the users never noticing a difference. A period where all IPv4 only users get redirected to a different domain doesn't achieve that.

      Had clients that defaults to IPv6 had good fallback to IPv4 to begin with, then we wouldn't have had the need for separate domains, redirects, DNS whitelists, IPv6 day, etc. We would have seen content available over IPv6 2-3 years earlier than we do now.

      --

      Do you care about the security of your wireless mouse?
  3. Cisco by mikkelm · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Perhaps this would be a good time for Cisco to release software with even the most rudimentary of IPv6 security features.

    1. Re:Cisco by smash · · Score: 1

      You mean like my ASA?

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    2. Re:Cisco by mikkelm · · Score: 1

      I mean like the elementary and obvious knobs and switches for protecting your infrastructure against v6-related resource exhaustion, rouge RAs, and every other issue that has long-recognised IPv4 analogues, and somehow were not thought important enough for initial releases.

    3. Re:Cisco by lactose99 · · Score: 1

      If you're relying on RAs or DHCPv6 for server networks then you have bigger problems, not unlike rogue DHCP servers in IPv4.

      --
      Fully licensed blockchain psychiatrist
    4. Re:Cisco by vanyel · · Score: 1

      Or for their customers to switch to juniper, and get the ability to modify configurations without taking your life in your hands to boot...

    5. Re:Cisco by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A few of us run networks with clients, not just servers. Clients will do all kinds of crazy crap, such as Windows Connection Sharing sending RAs, for example. Various IPv6 implementations in switches allow for trivial resource exhaustion "exploits" (that is, by running a few clients the switch runs out of memory trying to track various multicast groups).

      The list goes on and on and on and is rather sad considering the fact we've had the IPv6 standard for .. a few years now. It seems to me that the vendors of networking hardware are dragging their feet and implementing as little as possible so they can get a "supports IPv6" sticker, but no more. Look at rogue DHCP servers, the bane of any client network. We've had DHCP snooping or similar features for many years, yet the vendors seem to think that RA-guard or SEND are not worth spending time on. Same goes for pretty much any protocol-level security we have workarounds for in IPv4. Cheers guys. Way to go bringing IPv6 to the world and helping those who spend money buying your crap, keeping your companies viable.

      *and relax*

    6. Re:Cisco by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      IOS XR has a commit configuration feature. of course, I agree with your point for regular IOS code.

    7. Re:Cisco by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cisco switches have features to drop DHCP responses from devices they don't think are DHCP servers, so rogue servers get a lot harder to set up. Apparently they don't have such features for IPv6.

      The right answer, of course, is authenticated DHCP and a dumb network, but that would require somebody to actually change something on a client, so it might end the universe.

    8. Re:Cisco by smash · · Score: 1

      Rogue dhcp servers? Locate on your managed switch, LART user. Or run 802.11X, if your network integrity is really important.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    9. Re:Cisco by makomk · · Score: 1

      Presumably the point is that the tools required to do this with rogue RA senders or DHCPv6 servers on IPv6 just aren't there yet.

  4. It makes sense by phantomfive · · Score: 2

    ISPs are going to have to pay a lot of money for new hardware, whether they switch to IPv6 or to widespread NAT. Might as well buy the IPv6 stuff once and get it over with.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    1. Re:It makes sense by walshy007 · · Score: 1

      ISPs are going to have to pay a lot of money for new hardware

      Not really, it should have been part of the normal upgrade cycle of hardware. With a five year replacement cycle they could have started in 2007 and have had their entire organization ipv6 ready hardware wise by now. The problem has been known for long before that, it is simply preparing for the future.

    2. Re:It makes sense by Splab · · Score: 2

      Yes, because there hasn't been a recession and customers aren't cheap bastards that want everything for free...

      Upgrade cycles are a thing of the past, things get upgraded when they die or more bandwith is needed.

    3. Re:It makes sense by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      and when was there a drop in demand for bandwidth?

    4. Re:It makes sense by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      With a five year replacement cycle they could have started in 2007 and have had their entire organization ipv6 ready hardware wise by now.

      ok, that's great. You're talking about how it should be, here's how it is:

      ISPs didn't upgrade in 2007. They're going to need new hardware to support IPv6. And as long as we're talking about 'should have', all of them should have been IPv6 ready by 2001.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  5. And, on Dec 21, 2012 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Will be World End of IPv4 Day! All IPv4 addresses gone... forever! It might be the end of the world, so why not?

    1. Re:And, on Dec 21, 2012 by foniksonik · · Score: 1

      That's the day that The internet will become self aware. It will finally have enough address space to form the virtual neural network and enough sensors online to create the feedback loop we call consciousness.

      Should be a fun day.

      --
      A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
  6. Re:Hey by Osgeld · · Score: 0

    its next to your brain

  7. I could do it on my LAN by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But I have a few older devices that just don't play. Plus I really don't have enough to justify the bother. And my ISP hardly cares. But at least they are fiber.

    1. Re:I could do it on my LAN by Cimexus · · Score: 1

      The few older devices that just don't play are irrelevant. You don't switch your LAN over to IPv6-only ... you run dual stack. Those devices that work with IPv6 will get an IPv6 AND and IPv4 address. Those that don't, will just get an IPv4 address. IPv6 is preferred over IPv4 if both are available, but if only v4 is, that's fine. Everything will still work.

      My ISP has done native IPv6 for the last year or so. What this means in practice is that most devices in my house (all computers, tablets and smartphones) have an internal IPv4 (192.168.0.x), an internal IPv6, and a globally addressable IPv6 (prefix delegation via my ISP). The IPv4-only devices (game consoles, mostly) just have the internal IPv4 (and are NAT'ed behind a single global IPv4, as always, of course).

  8. Yes! by sakdoctor · · Score: 4, Funny

    I've been waiting a long time for this.

    http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1487194&cid=30529330

  9. why isn't slashdot doing a protest PIPA thing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    i mean sure we already know it blows but like it's the thought that counts.

  10. Slowly would be an understatement. by jaygridley · · Score: 1

    Many ISPs dont provide IPv6 connectivity and IPv6 support is still nonexistant in many routers.

    1. Re:Slowly would be an understatement. by jawtheshark · · Score: 2

      Yes, my father just got FTTH on Monday. The router has an option for IPv6, it's disabled by default and marked "Not recommended". My ISP offers IPv6 from what I see on their webpage though. Personally (I use the same ISP), I've been trying to get it running, but I seem to need a fixed IPv6 block because my router is a Soekris net5501-70 running OpenBSD (4.8, you don't upgrade these things at each release). You cannot run rtsold when the machine is a router and I have the impression that the PPP user daemon doesn't support it. This means IPv4 for me... I asked for a fixed IPv6 block at my ISP (who usually are competent) and they don't do that (yet). Also, they couldn't tell me whether it would be free or come with a cost. If I want a fixed IPv4, it "only" cost 25€/month which I don't pay as DynDNS does the trick for me.

      --
      Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
  11. Here's the most important question... by idbeholda · · Score: 1

    Have they finally worked out the bugs? If they have, perhaps this time with be "fo 'realiez yo!", instead of "jk" like the last 8 times.

    1. Re:Here's the most important question... by smash · · Score: 1

      List of showstopper bugs please?

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    2. Re:Here's the most important question... by amRadioHed · · Score: 2

      Even worse, there are over 26 million pages for "tcp bugs" and yet somehow we all manage to use it without much trouble.

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
    3. Re:Here's the most important question... by idbeholda · · Score: 1

      Yes, but we're still having trouble implementing IPv6. That's the difference.

    4. Re:Here's the most important question... by pe1rxq · · Score: 1

      If you google for 'incompetent it department' you get a nice hint to the root cause....

      --
      Secure messaging: http://quickmsg.vreeken.net/
    5. Re:Here's the most important question... by idbeholda · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the laugh, found some real gems with that one.

    6. Re:Here's the most important question... by Cimexus · · Score: 1

      We are? My ISP has been dishing out both IPv4 and IPv6 addresses (native, none of that tunnel broker crap) for the last year or two and I haven't experienced any problems. My computers all have globally addressable IPv6 addresses and preferentially connect to hosts via IPv6, as designed (falling back to v4 for hosts without AAAA records, of course).

      The ISP's internal network and global backbone are also 100% IPv6.

      There are probably bugs out there but I (nor the other several hundred thousand subscribers to my ISP) haven't noticed any...

    7. Re:Here's the most important question... by rdebath · · Score: 1

      "They" didn't have any bugs; I'm talking of (Google, Bing, facebook etc) what they did last year was turn on ipv6 for a day in the hope that you'd fix any problems with your equipment.

      In June they'll be throwing the switch, you will only have problems if you have a broken IPv6 setup. If you have either working IPv6 or NO ipv6 you'll be fine.

      You can check for yourself again on the test site.

    8. Re:Here's the most important question... by smash · · Score: 1

      Clearly you have no idea what showstopper means.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    9. Re:Here's the most important question... by smash · · Score: 1

      Plenty of places are already running ipv6. Plenty of people don't know how to implement/administer ipv4 properly either.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    10. Re:Here's the most important question... by idbeholda · · Score: 1

      Like the fact it still isn't implemented almost 12 years after the original announcement?

    11. Re:Here's the most important question... by idbeholda · · Score: 1

      Then bring that up with the incompetents that don't know how to implement it. I'm just pointing out the obvious.

    12. Re:Here's the most important question... by smash · · Score: 1

      Thing is, plenty are currently running it. There are plenty of open relays still out there too, and that hasn't been SMTP best practice for far longer.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    13. Re:Here's the most important question... by idbeholda · · Score: 1

      Really? I should have realized you were a troll right off the break.

    14. Re:Here's the most important question... by smash · · Score: 1

      Troll doesn't mean "running technology i don't myself understand".

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
  12. Re:Hey by shentino · · Score: 4, Informative

    Just disable javascript

  13. What about Amazon? by ResQuad · · Score: 1

    As much as I hate to nit pick one specific company, but Amazon Web Services is used by a LOT of people and groups, are they going IPv6? I know their Elastic Load Balancer is, but what about everything else? Is Route 53 v6 glued? v6 accessible?

    More importantly what about CloudFront? Try going v6 only now and you'll have a lot of "functional" websites which look like hell because they use Akamai or CloudFront which aren't v6 enabled (Though Akamai has commited)

    1. Re:What about Amazon? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is Route 53 v6 glued? v6 accessible?

      You can answer this one yourself: http://aws.amazon.com/route53/faqs/#Support_for_IPv6

  14. Google and FB, who would have thought ... by Lazy+Jones · · Score: 1, Interesting

    ... that those most eager to collect personal information and track everyone's activity would be eager to get everyone to adopt IPv6, which assigns a fixed prefix to each Internet user/access contract and a unique address to each device (i.e. those currently hidden behind routers and corporate NAT gateways). IPv6 is the worst privacy breach and danger to system security we're facing right now, go Lemmings go!

    --
    "I love my job, but I hate talking to people like you" (Freddie Mercury)
    1. Re:Google and FB, who would have thought ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mod parent up. It's obvious but most people do not see it.

    2. Re:Google and FB, who would have thought ... by jibjibjib · · Score: 4, Informative

      The major operating systems support IPv6 Privacy Extensions. This means they generate and use multiple temporary IPv6 addresses, making them less identifiable than most IPv4 systems.

      Also, there's no requirement for IPv6 addresses to be fixed. Just as some ISPs offer dynamic IPv4 addresses now, some ISPs will offer dynamic IPv6 blocks in the future.

    3. Re:Google and FB, who would have thought ... by foniksonik · · Score: 1

      What, you can't run NAT behind an IPv6 address? It's no different than an IPv4 address unless you want to have multiple unique addresses public facing, then IPv6 wins.

      --
      A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
    4. Re:Google and FB, who would have thought ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LOL, if they were tracking you, they'd track you with a unique ID they assign you.

      If you switch ISPs your IPv6 address will change, but that unique ID won't.

      Next time don't skip your medication.

    5. Re:Google and FB, who would have thought ... by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 2

      They are collecting your data as we speak. Do you really believe a NAT or a firewall is going to stop them? IPv6 isn't going to help them collect more data. They follow the moves of anyone logged in to them now. If you have no NoScript or Adblock or so you'll notice a small "t", a small "f" and a small "+" in the lower right corner of each message once you hoover over the message. Do you believe that's only a button? Do you believe that's only a way of connecting to twitter, Facebook or Google if and when you wish to do so? Each and every /. page you load is reported back to them.
      What would IPv6 add? Tracability of the specific PC? They already have that, assuming you aren't actively blocking their scripts (if you are they can't trace you either, unless and only when you go to their pages. Even with IPv6.) . Each and every one of them uses cookies with unike ID's. That's how they trace you. Why would they add a higly unstable way of doing exactly the same? (The IP adress of your PC can change each hour if you wish it to. Then Google would think you are a new customer and thus a new data set.)
      Now we have established it won't help them, let's talk about the need. True, there are some IPv4 adresses available. But they will be taken soon, the request for IP adresses is increasing fast. NAT is a hack solution to a problem decently solved with IPv6. Continuing to use IPv4 (and opening the available IP adresses in A blocks) would postpone the inevitable, with more costs as a result (by then there are even more users with more PC's/phone's and thus more costs). Going to IPv6 fixes the problem (there are so many IPv6 adresses even I believe we won't run out, not in a million years).
      We must go to IPv6 and we can't delay for it would cost money.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
    6. Re:Google and FB, who would have thought ... by Nursie · · Score: 0

      What, you can't run NAT behind an IPv6 address?

      But I thought that NAT was horribly broken and downright evil according to the priests of IPv6?

      I thought part of the holy doctrine was that there was enough space for NAT to be discarded as it provides no possible benefits, evar and breaks the internet?

      (Me, I like NAT, I'm fairly happy that my devices are not globally addressable.)

    7. Re:Google and FB, who would have thought ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh they will. To log in at an internet cafe they'll require authenticating with a biometric device and the lower 64 bits of your ipv6 will be that id. Every packet you send will have your name on it.

    8. Re:Google and FB, who would have thought ... by gmack · · Score: 1

      I know for a fact that you can't do DNAT with Linux on ipv6 and I suspect the same is true with Windows and FreeBSD as well (someone correct me if I'm wrong)

    9. Re:Google and FB, who would have thought ... by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      A fixed prefix is down to your isp, they might offer you a dynamic prefix that changes each time you connect, or they might provide a static ipv4 address...

      You don't need to use a static address for each device, you have 2^64 addresses to play with so you can use a RANDOM address for each device and change it as often as you like...
      All a site will be able to tell is which prefix you were handed by your isp, in the same way they can see which ipv4 address you were handed by your isp.
      BTW there are much better ways of tracking users behind nat, think cookies, browser fingerprinting etc.

      NAT is not a security feature, you should not use it to hide insecure boxes... It gives a false sense of security because if someone penetrates your nat (and there are many many ways they could do so) your screwed.
      Also its trivially easy to configure ipv6 to not allow new inbound connections, thus achieving the same aparrent effect as nat.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    10. Re:Google and FB, who would have thought ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With or without the privacy extensions, you will be identified because the static /48 (or /56) prefix is tied to your home. It's the MAC address that can be fudged.

    11. Re:Google and FB, who would have thought ... by jibjibjib · · Score: 2

      Didn't you read the second half of my comment?

      IPv6 addresses don't have to be static. If it happens that an ISP implements static IPv6 addresses but dynamic IPv4 addresses, that's your ISP's choice, not a problem with IPv6.

    12. Re:Google and FB, who would have thought ... by jibjibjib · · Score: 1

      The social networking icons on Slashdot comments are hosted on Slashdot servers, and loading a Slashdot page doesn't send anything to Facebook.

    13. Re:Google and FB, who would have thought ... by gbjbaanb · · Score: 1

      (Me, I like NAT, I'm fairly happy that my devices are not globally addressable.)

      repeat after me. "NAT is a proxy forwarder type solution. The thing that stops my devices not being globally addressable is the firewall."

      With IPv6 you lose nothing, everything is as it was, but what you gain is the ability to expose more than one of your devices to the global internets.

      Your router will still have a firewall which will (hopefully by default) block all incoming access attempts to all connected devices. Imagine IPv6 as a super-NAT that you can configure to have multiple DMZ (or port forwarder) options.

    14. Re:Google and FB, who would have thought ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First of all, even dynamic IPv4 addresses are surprisingly stable. In IPv6 there's hardly any reason to ever reissue them so you'll have a de-facto static IPv6 address space.

      Secondly, the static IPv6 prefix is the big selling point for IPv6, and will spawn all kinds of new appliations and kill all kinds of middlemen.

    15. Re:Google and FB, who would have thought ... by alex67500 · · Score: 1

      ... that those most eager to collect personal information and track everyone's activity would be eager to get everyone to adopt IPv6, which assigns a fixed prefix to each Internet user/access contract and a unique address to each device (i.e. those currently hidden behind routers and corporate NAT gateways). IPv6 is the worst privacy breach and danger to system security we're facing right now, go Lemmings go!

      You mean the kind of coporate gateways which are called proxies, and will still exist after IPv6, and will still be the only gateway allowing acces to the WWW?

    16. Re:Google and FB, who would have thought ... by Nursie · · Score: 1

      "NAT is a proxy forwarder type solution. The thing that stops my devices not being globally addressable is the firewall."

      So... how do you address a packet to a system behind a NAT?

      I'm quite serious, I really don't know. I know of NAT traversal techniques, but they usually involve the client cooperating.

    17. Re:Google and FB, who would have thought ... by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      But I thought that NAT was horribly broken and downright evil according to the priests of IPv6?

      Yeah that is pretty much the case. There is no theoretical reason you can't but the doctrine of the v6 zealots is that nat (and particually the stateful nat needed to map a large range down to a smaller range) is both bad and no longer needed so good f*cking luck getting an implementation into mainline linux or any common distro.

      I thought part of the holy doctrine was that there was enough space for NAT to be discarded as it provides no possible benefits, evar and breaks the internet?

      Unfortunately they are wrong. The big problem with the lack of NAT is small (but not tiny) to medium buisnesses, think somewhere with tens to hundreds of machine and a couple of sites. With v4 and NAT this is easy you run your internal network on private IPs, use NAT to access the internet and use tunnels to communicate between sites. How a subnet is addressed and how it connects to the internet can be completely inde

      Whereas without NAT if you want to change how a portion of your network connects to the internet you have to readdreess it and while you may try to enforce use of private addresses for internal communication in practice it's likely that some stuff will get inadvertantly set up to point to public IPs.

      Homes and very small buisnesses can just have thier IPs change whenever their ISP changes, their network is so small it's no big deal. Large buisnesses can run their own AS with private links and provider independent address space.

      (Me, I like NAT, I'm fairly happy that my devices are not globally addressable.)

      A stateful firewall can effectively prevent incoming connections from the internet and privacy extensions can prevent servers identifying which device is which on your network.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    18. Re:Google and FB, who would have thought ... by Imagix · · Score: 1

      You need to address it to a routable IP that the NAT gateway owns, and you need to teach the NAT gateway how to translate that routable IP to your internal IP (and possibly ports too). (Whether that "teach" part is something statically configured by the admin, or negotiated with the internal devices using some protocol or the other (uPnP?)). Plus your internal device may need to learn what the routable IP is in some manner in order to potentially send it to other devices to tell them how to get back to the internal device (the internal device may want to publish a DDNS record for itself, but since it may not be aware of what the routable IP is....), or other protocols which try to pass addresses around. In the IPv6 world, the device knows what it's globally routable IP is, and the "NAT gateway" becomes simpler and is only a firewall.

    19. Re:Google and FB, who would have thought ... by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      So... how do you address a packet to a system behind a NAT?

      I'm quite serious, I really don't know. I know of NAT traversal techniques, but they usually involve the client cooperating.

      If you are connected to the same broadcast domain as the network you are trying to access (which may be the case on some infrastructures such as cable), you simply set routing on your machine. Most NAT routers have next to no firewall and just let the traffic through (yes, I've tested this with several different brands of router).

      On the other hand, I'd ask you "how do you address a packet to a system behind a stateful firewall"? Again, the firewall can be traversed, but it requires the client to cooperate.

    20. Re:Google and FB, who would have thought ... by Ultra64 · · Score: 1

      You mean just like your IPv4 address can be tied to your home?

    21. Re:Google and FB, who would have thought ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You address the packet to shared_public_IP:some_port

      The proxy/NAT has a state table that says if it comes in to some_port, it needs to be redirected to internal_ip:other_port. And that's what it does.

      NAT traversal, in a nutshell, is getting the internal host to send traffic outbound, so that the proxy/NAT's state table gets an update which can be used to send traffic from outside, in.

    22. Re:Google and FB, who would have thought ... by unixisc · · Score: 1

      But if the global prefix of an IPv6 address is known, assuming that it's (a /64) is just tied to one home, anyone can just use that to determine what they want to send there, and just do a multicast to all nodes on that network. If, as the initial Comcast implementation goes, every home gets only a single IP address, then it's difficult to track, particularly if the addresses are dynamic.

      In fact, coming to think of it, even if an ISP didn't give all its customers a /64, it could still, using a good definition of DHCP6 policies, lay it out such that every customer got a bunch of static addresses, a bunch of dynamic ones, which the ISP could internally identify by using a block of them for its customers (assume 65534 customers per subnet). That way, a customer wouldn't have to set up an elaborate configuration @ the CPE end, but rather, the ISP could assign it amongst all their subscribers in a given locality.

    23. Re:Google and FB, who would have thought ... by unixisc · · Score: 1

      Firewalls don't stop your devices from being globally addressable. They only block certain addresses from sending data to your devices. It's like saying that a home security system in your home changes your residential address, when nothing of the sort happens. It just means that if someone tries to break into your home, he's in trouble, not that if he turns up in front of your house, your home security system will change your address.

    24. Re:Google and FB, who would have thought ... by unixisc · · Score: 1

      Only if you use autoconfig, which would be stupid. Once you have a /64, you can define it any way you like. Out of the 4 words that you have in that space, you can assign one to be the port# of the application which uses an IP (like HTTP, SMPT, IMAP, et al), have another word just dynamically change to give you a dynamic address all the time, use another w/ a number you assign for yourself, and the 4th to ID the device in your network that's accessing it. In other words, you will know what address corresponds to what, but there is no way anybody outside your home will.

    25. Re:Google and FB, who would have thought ... by gbjbaanb · · Score: 1

      the one on your router does - if it blocks incoming requests, your PCs inside the network don't see them at all.

      What you misunderstand is that with NAT you have 1 IP - that of the router itself, and if you do want an internal host to be accessed you tell the router to route packets to it (usually bypassing all firewall protection unless your internal host also runs a firewall). Once you open your router like this you've lost all protection the NAT gives you. Your router is still exposed to the global internet which can be a security issue in itself.

      With IPv6 you will have multiple IPs and a firewall that protects all of them at the router level, so you can access any internal host, or not, explicitly. If you want, you can still expose only 1 IP to the internet and have it redirect packets to hosts on an internal network. I'm sure many routers will allow this type of connection (or you'll use Windows Internet Connection Sharing) even though its redundant - why bother having 1 IP exposed when you can expose them all (all of them having the same firewall protections as the main 1). If you're worried about security then you've got problems as you're still exposing at least 1 device!

      Firewalls can stop any (not just certain) addresses from sending you data. Your NAT firewall does that for all devices, unless you add one of them to the router's DMZ, then it typically blocks nothing.

      If you want a address analogy, its like with NAT all letters are delivered to your house address. With IPv6 each resident gets their own mailbox. With NAT all letters are delivered, even junk mail. With IPv6, the mail that's not addressed to an actual resident are undelivered (ok, pretty poor analogy :) )

    26. Re:Google and FB, who would have thought ... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      I think ISPs will be required to give customers a /64. You either give a /0 a /1 (P2P) or a /64. There are no variable sized subnets in v6. The routing tables are much simpler which makes lower latency possible.

    27. Re:Google and FB, who would have thought ... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Once routing tables are simplified you are going to start having protocols that are more sensitive to latency.

      It is likely that NAT may ever work right on v6 in practice. In theory you can of course do anything.

    28. Re:Google and FB, who would have thought ... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure how this is a problem. This is defined in v6.

      I can setup whole virtualized subnets with translation on my routing equipment. That's how 6to4 works.

      . With v4 and NAT this is easy you run your internal network on private IPs, use NAT to access the internet and use tunnels to communicate between sites. How a subnet is addressed and how it connects to the internet can be completely inde[pendent.]

      Whereas without NAT if you want to change how a portion of your network connects to the internet you have to readdreess it and while you may try to enforce use of private addresses for internal communication in practice it's likely that some stuff will get inadvertantly set up to point to public IPs.

      So let me give you the v6 equivalent.

      I have say 3 sites with their own /64 subnets and 10 machines on each. I mirror each others subnets and setup static route conversions on the 3 routers. Done.

      So for example sites A, B and C look like
      A] 1122:3344:5566:7788:0AXX::
      B] 1234:5678:90AB:CDEF:OBXX::
      C] 2345:6789:0ABC:DEF1:OCXX::

      And on A's site I represent B's addresses as:

      1122:3344:5566:7788:OBXX

      and the router translates. That's perfectly safe.

    29. Re:Google and FB, who would have thought ... by webnut77 · · Score: 1

      IPv6 addresses don't have to be static. If it happens that an ISP implements static IPv6 addresses but dynamic IPv4 addresses, that's your ISP's choice, not a problem with IPv6.

      Doesn't surprise me. They need a way to keep pulling that extra $20 bill out of my wallet every month. Oh, you want a static IP address ...

    30. Re:Google and FB, who would have thought ... by unixisc · · Score: 1

      I think you mean giving /128s - nobody has ever been given a /1, and /0 means handing the entire IPv6 address range over.

    31. Re:Google and FB, who would have thought ... by unixisc · · Score: 1

      Improving on the analogy somewhat, w/ NAT, all letters are delivered to the rental office, and one's mailboxes there are analogous to private addresses. Or alternatively, if an address says 1256 Alcott Drive, it's an IPv6 like address, whereas if it says 1250 Alcott Drive #6, 1250 is the public address, and #6 the private address NATed behind 1250 Alcott Drive. With IPv6, all letters are delivered @ the front door, since each has individual addresses that are distinguished by house#, not apartment#. Junk mail can be discarded easily regardless of whether it comes to the rental office or at one's front door - rental office doesn't provide any extra junk filtering.

      But to get to my other point, firewalls are needed @ the node level, not just @ the router. Yeah, the router needs to be protected from those who'd compromise it, but behind the router, you could have viruses or malware within the LAN. Therefore, it's important to have that lock on your door - so that someone from within the apartment complex can burglarize your home more easily than someone living outside the complex.

    32. Re:Google and FB, who would have thought ... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Yep, ouch that was dumb on my part. Thank you for the correction. I did mean /128, /127 and /64 (on up) were the only options.

    33. Re:Google and FB, who would have thought ... by unixisc · · Score: 1

      What I was thinking was that if an ISP is doing what Comcast is initially doing - assigning just /128s, there is a way in which the ISP can allocate a certain number of addresses - both static and dynamic - to every subscriber within that subnet.

      I'm not sure about how versatile DHCP6 servers so far are, but assuming that they allowed for each word in the interface ID to be defined separately. There are 4 16-bit words in the interface ID address. Let's say that the ISP defined the first word as a random number from 0x0 to 0xffff, the second word as a plain subscriber number from, say 0x1001 to 0x9999, the third word as something assigned to each device belonging to that subscriber and the fourth word as something else, say the port address that was being used. By that policy, every subscriber will get less than /64, but more static addresses than what he knows to do w/, and 65535 dynamic addresses for every device that gets detected.

      Such an arrangement eliminates the need for a subscriber to maintain his own DHCP6 server that assigns the interface ID, and just take whatever the ISP assigns. Chances are that on a single subnet, the ISP would have probably 10,000 subscribers, rather than 2^64? So they can easily assign a whole bunch of routable IPs to every customer, just like in the early days when ISPs offered customers up to 5 public IP addresses. Such an arrangement would give every subscriber a handful of addresses, while increasing the utilization of addresses in that space.

      And of course, if a subscriber needs an entire /64 to run his entire SOHO network or some such operation, that can always be made available. My point - it doesn't have to be only /64 or /127 or /128 - it can be a non linear allocation of a certain number (in between) of addresses to the subscriber.

    34. Re:Google and FB, who would have thought ... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Actually no it can't be cutup however the ISP wants. IPv4 allows for all sorts of complex subnet sizes to preserve address space. v6 doesn't allow for that, it allows for only simple network architectures to make routing as fast as possible. For example if you address is 1122:3344:5566:7788:9900:AABB:CCDD:EEFF then your broadcast address is always 1122:3344:5566:7788::

      Don't think address utilization, that's a v4 concept based on the idea that public addresses are worth being careful about. The focus for v6 is no routing tables. You could give every man, woman and child that every lived and every computer ever created a billion /64 subnets and you still wouldn't exhaust the space.

      People even recommend using a /64 for point to point connection though allow for a /127.

  15. D-Link by cfryback · · Score: 1

    That's it if D-Link is involved it is bound to be success! ;)

  16. Background Information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    This isn't really a monumental step forward. In fact, its quite pathetic that it's taking so long to get to this stage of the process. The IPv6 standard uses AAAA DNS records, but does not preclude the traditional A records. A domain can use both simultaneously, allowing clients to pick the addressing method.

    Unfortunately, big websites have been hesitant to add AAAA records because of bugs in some software that cause A records to be ignored if an AAAA is present--even if the client doesn't support IPv6.

    Really. This problem should have been solved a long time ago.

    1. Re:Background Information by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, big websites have been hesitant to add AAAA records because of bugs in some software that cause A records to be ignored if an AAAA is present--even if the client doesn't support IPv6.

      Haven't seen that at least not in any major software

      The big problem has been software that does the following

      1: lookup the DNS records
      2: try to connect on v6
      3: wait until that connection either succeeds or fails
      4: if it fails try again on v4

      If there is no v6 link available at all this is not a problem. The v6 connection fails quickly, the software falls back and the user doesn't notice. The problem comes when the v6 connection is either

      a: really shitty but just about working
      b: a blackhole that neither delivers packets or sends back errors.

      a is bad, the user gets a degraded experiance because of v6
      b is even worse. the default OS timeout on a TCP connection is arround a minuite IIRC. Trying to browse the web with every pageload delayed by a minuite is EXCRUCIATING.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
  17. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 by muon-catalyzed · · Score: 0

    Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. We are the FGB (Facebook, Google, Bing). Your new shiny IPv6 ass will get tracked for ads and other screening purposes.

  18. now is ATT going to swap modems that can't do IP6 by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    Or are they going to make the customer pay for the new ones?

    Do I have to call them and ask for a free one?

    D-link what about comeing out with the IPv6 update for the DIR-655 RevA

  19. Isn't it obvious? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In protest, they made the site a horrible shade of green, and today the editors won't be editing anything.

    Wait, what do you mean that's normal...

  20. Re:Hey by djh2400 · · Score: 1

    What the fuck happened to Wikipedia?

    this

  21. More shit for the tip (dump). by Jimbookis · · Score: 1, Troll

    Righty ho. So my 5 year old Billion 7401-VGPM modem which is chugging along just fine but doesn't do IPv6 needs to die first before I get an IPv6 modem in spite of my ISP (Internode) supporting IPv6 be default. Really, *really* what's IPv6 going to do for me now or even in the next 4 years that my IPv4 and 192.168.x.x home network don't do for me?

    1. Re:More shit for the tip (dump). by hardboiled.tequila · · Score: 1

      I got the same model a couple of years ago, specifically for VOIP. I'm not impressed about having to purchase new hardware. Switching to IPv6 is like 'upgrading' from HTML4 to XHTML. A lot of effort for very little apparent benefit.

    2. Re:More shit for the tip (dump). by walshy007 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Really, *really* what's IPv6 going to do for me now or even in the next 4 years that my IPv4 and 192.168.x.x home network don't do for me?

      For starters it will allow you to host a bunch of services on different machines without having to put them all on weird ass ports because you only have a single ip. Peer to peer software will work as intended without nasty hacks to poke holes through the nat.

      It essentially stops the internet from becoming broken into a one-way thing, which is one of the side effects of nat.

    3. Re:More shit for the tip (dump). by Vegemeister · · Score: 1

      A whole lot less futzing around with port forwards and ssh tunnels.

    4. Re:More shit for the tip (dump). by Dahan · · Score: 1

      Probably nothing. Nobody's gonna force you off of IPv4 anytime soon--and probably never. The main reason for adding IPv6 support (note: not switching to IPv6) is for the billions of people who aren't currently on the Internet, but will be getting Internet access over the next decade.

    5. Re:More shit for the tip (dump). by knorthern+knight · · Score: 1, Interesting

      > For starters it will allow you to host a bunch of services on different machines without
      > having to put them all on weird ass ports because you only have a single ip. Peer to peer
      > software will work as intended without nasty hacks to poke holes through the nat.

      > It essentially stops the internet from becoming broken into a one-way thing, which is one of the side effects of nat.

      Did you read the message you responded to? He was talking about his ***HOME*** network. I'm sure that Slashdot has its share of "l33t h@x0r d00ds" who want to run their own servers, etc. And of course, you're *ASSUMING* static ip addresses. But what will it do for the other 99% of users?

      --

      I'm not repeating myself
      I'm an X window user; I'm an ex-Windows user
    6. Re:More shit for the tip (dump). by walshy007 · · Score: 1

      He was talking about his ***HOME*** network.

      Did you read what I wrote, especially towards the end?

      Peer to peer software will work as intended without nasty hacks to poke holes through the nat.

      So you are saying home users don't use peer to peer software? That's a pretty bold claim.

      And of course, you're *ASSUMING* static ip addresses.

      Static ips aren't needed for peer too peer stuff, and dymanic dns has been around for ages.

    7. Re:More shit for the tip (dump). by Electricity+Likes+Me · · Score: 1

      Dozens of protocols like to, or need to, open inbound ports for clients to back-connect to. FTP, various VPNs, SIP, IRC etc.

      Now we can work around that with NAT and port forwarding, but we absolutely can't fix that once we have carrier-grade NAT and the user can't forward ports anymore. Bye bye UPnP (which is the only reason things "seem" to work now), and bye bye any service which needs a mediator if you can't get a mediator server on the unNAT'd internet. And just watch as entry costs skyrocket.

    8. Re:More shit for the tip (dump). by Nursie · · Score: 1

      UPnP is a security risk anyway, it allows any client to punch whatever holes it likes in a useful barrier.

      Yes, this makes some machines into client-only boxes (without intervention), rather than full citizens of the net. This is absolutely, positively A GOOD THING.

    9. Re:More shit for the tip (dump). by adolf · · Score: 1

      With an open outgoing firewall (IPv4, IPv6, NAT, whatever) without UPnP support, any malicious client can already contact any random remote node and transfer arbitrary data.

      With UPnP, this changes as follows:

      Any random remote node can connect to a malicious local client (server?), and that client can then serve arbitrary data.

      (The common factor here, for those not keeping notes, is maliciousness -- not UPnP.)

      So, either you trust your software or you don't, but UPnP in and of itself doesn't actually change the risk profile at all as far as I can see.

    10. Re:More shit for the tip (dump). by Electricity+Likes+Me · · Score: 1

      Exactly. If you have malware, you have malware - it can establish whatever outgoing connections it needs to in order to function. Malware could connect to the Tor network on port 443 and act as a server there.

      You can't have net access AND block outgoing traffic in any sort of useful manner.

    11. Re:More shit for the tip (dump). by Nursie · · Score: 1

      No, but it does allow a piece of malware to listen on arbitrary ports, trivially turning your local machine into an internet-visible server - something that I have seen system intruders attempt.

      If there is no value in this then why do people arguing for UPnP and against NAT care so much about the ability? We can just work around it!

    12. Re:More shit for the tip (dump). by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He was talking about his ***HOME*** network.

      Did you read what I wrote, especially towards the end?

      Peer to peer software will work as intended without nasty hacks to poke holes through the nat.

      So you are saying home users don't use peer to peer software? That's a pretty bold claim.

      And of course, you're *ASSUMING* static ip addresses.

      Static ips aren't needed for peer too peer stuff, and dymanic dns has been around for ages.

      I'm fairly certain home users will still be allocated one IP for their modem at any one time, they won't be given one for each of their devices. To do so would be madness and inviting the same situation further down the line (might be 10-20 years but hey) Whether that is an IPv4 or IPv6 address makes no difference. You still have a NAT requirement.

    13. Re:More shit for the tip (dump). by compro01 · · Score: 1

      To do so would be madness and inviting the same situation further down the line (might be 10-20 years but hey)

      If you believe that, you do not understand exponents.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    14. Re:More shit for the tip (dump). by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      I'm fairly certain home users will still be allocated one IP for their modem at any one time, they won't be given one for each of their devices. To do so would be madness and inviting the same situation further down the line (might be 10-20 years but hey) Whether that is an IPv4 or IPv6 address makes no difference. You still have a NAT requirement.

      Home users will be given at least a /64 (I get a /56 from EntaNet). So no, there is no NAT requirement.

    15. Re:More shit for the tip (dump). by jbolden · · Score: 1

      We have no idea if people would want to have all sorts of easy to use global stuff it became obvious. Your coffee machine is running a start server and when you set your alarm on your cell phone to wakeup it sets the coffee to start 10 minutes before.

    16. Re:More shit for the tip (dump). by jbolden · · Score: 1

      They are going to be allocated a full /64. And no in 20 years we won't be close to exhausting the first 64 bits. That's the size of the internet squared.

      Give 1,000,000 full /64 subnets to every man woman and child on the planet and another million to every network enabled device in existence and you are still wouldn't be close to exhausting the v6 address space.

    17. Re:More shit for the tip (dump). by adolf · · Score: 1

      No, but it does allow a piece of malware to listen on arbitrary ports, trivially turning your local machine into an internet-visible server - something that I have seen system intruders attempt.

      Right. Didn't I just say that?

      If there is no value in this then why do people arguing for UPnP and against NAT care so much about the ability?

      I have no idea what you're going on about. I could give a shit less about UPnP and NAT, and I'm really not for or against anything.

    18. Re:More shit for the tip (dump). by FrankieBaby1986 · · Score: 1

      For starters it will allow you to host a bunch of services on different machines without having to put them all on weird ass ports because you only have a single ip. Peer to peer software will work as intended without nasty hacks to poke holes through the nat.

      Well, on my home network, I'd want everything from the outside firewalled unless I initiated the connection. (Kinda like what NAT does). How will peer2peer software work in this case? By punching holes in the firewall using nasty hacks? Serious question.

      --
      ERROR: SIG NOT FOUND (A)bort, (R)etry, (F)ail?:
  22. How will the avalanche fall? by Qubit · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I hope that some of the network/systems analysis companies out there are taking accurate notes about the state of what's accessible via IPv6 and IPv4. I think we'll see an interesting sort of "avalanche" graph when we reach the tipping point. Or not -- perhaps there will be enough dual-stack that we'll just have a slow deathmarch of sites available by IPv4, with a few less year after year?

    But to step back and wax lyrical about the whole problem, the reason that IPv6 hasn't taken hold yet is because it just hasn't gotten enough of an IPv6-only install base clamouring for support on their popular websites.

    Having major websites and hardware manufacturers on board is an important piece of the puzzle, but it's nothing compared to money. Get enough people inconvenienced that they will take their eyes and their money elsewere (directly, or through advertising revenue on sites, etc...), and every site that cares about their viewership will hop on the IPv6 train. Of course, this means that Bob's website that features his personal Banana Sticker Collection might not get IPv6 support until his ISP drags him to an IPv6 address, kicking and screaming all the way.

    That whole idea a year or two ago about putting out a big zip file of porn, but only available on IPv6, was kind of a hoot. AFAIK it never came to fruition, but I liked the creative thinking there. Has anyone else had any crazy good (or just crazy) suggestions about how to spur IPv6 adoption?

    --

    coding is life /* the rest is */
    1. Re:How will the avalanche fall? by dbIII · · Score: 4, Informative

      One obvious one to me is workplace desktops accessable from your iPad or whatever of choice from anywhere. People will understand why all us *nix guys got excited about shells, X and VNC so long ago. If it wasn't for NAT we'd have seen a lot more of it already, but NAT changes it from being trivial to implement to a pain in the arse for more than a handful of people per site. Having unique numbers adressable from anywhere for everybody's desktop machines make it trivial again.
      For those that think NAT is some kind of security feature I suggest learning what it actually is instead of throwing three letters around as some sort of incantation. The features actually come from the firewall that just happens to be on the same physical device that gives you NAT and you still need something like that device anyway to get the net into the office with IPv6. The firewall isn't going to go away, just NAT (network address translation).

    2. Re:How will the avalanche fall? by vanyel · · Score: 1

      We left IPv6 enabled on our web site, and I've been slowly adding it to servers as I touch them. Our primary nameservers added ipv6 a couple months ago (well, one of them, the offsite one is waiting for rackspace to *finally* get off their duff and support it on their hosted vms), and I'm planning on working towards having our internal core network be ipv6 only (though realize that's only a holy grail - too many apps don't yet support it).

    3. Re:How will the avalanche fall? by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

      Thanks to an admin with foresight (and an epic beard) back in The Day, all of our corporate machines have public IP4 addresses in our meaty netblock.

      Of course, because said admin wasn't an utterly incompetent retard, none of them are publicly accessible by default. If you need access, you can ask, and the runes are cast.

      So, in practice, not much different from NAT access to private IPs.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    4. Re:How will the avalanche fall? by divisionbyzero · · Score: 1

      I hope that some of the network/systems analysis companies out there are taking accurate notes about the state of what's accessible via IPv6 and IPv4. I think we'll see an interesting sort of "avalanche" graph when we reach the tipping point. Or not -- perhaps there will be enough dual-stack that we'll just have a slow deathmarch of sites available by IPv4, with a few less year after year?

      But to step back and wax lyrical about the whole problem, the reason that IPv6 hasn't taken hold yet is because it just hasn't gotten enough of an IPv6-only install base clamouring for support on their popular websites.

      Having major websites and hardware manufacturers on board is an important piece of the puzzle, but it's nothing compared to money. Get enough people inconvenienced that they will take their eyes and their money elsewere (directly, or through advertising revenue on sites, etc...), and every site that cares about their viewership will hop on the IPv6 train. Of course, this means that Bob's website that features his personal Banana Sticker Collection might not get IPv6 support until his ISP drags him to an IPv6 address, kicking and screaming all the way.

      That whole idea a year or two ago about putting out a big zip file of porn, but only available on IPv6, was kind of a hoot. AFAIK it never came to fruition, but I liked the creative thinking there. Has anyone else had any crazy good (or just crazy) suggestions about how to spur IPv6 adoption?

      It could easily be said the other way around, right? Until content providers start using IPv6 ISPs won't hand out IPv6 addresses to the end-users. It's the classic chicken-egg problem. No, what really made this day come is that ISPs cannot buy anymore addresses and cannot grow unless they do. Sure they could do CGN or a bunch of other things but they have enough drawbacks and are sufficiently different from an operational perspective to make the expense of adopting IPv6 reasonable.

    5. Re:How will the avalanche fall? by grumbel · · Score: 2

      For those that think NAT is some kind of security feature I suggest learning what it actually is instead of throwing three letters around as some sort of incantation. The features actually come from the firewall that just happens to be on the same physical device that gives you NAT and you still need something like that device anyway to get the net into the office with IPv6.

      While it is true that NAT itself isn't a security feature, being limited to only a single IPv4 address and being forced to hide all devices behind a single IP address actually is. With a typical single-IPv4 address NAT network you simply can't expose all your devices to the Internet, it's impossible. It's secure by default and there is not even a way to missconfigure it. At worst you can expose a few selected services to the Internet or a single machine, but not much more.

      With IPv6 and Firewalls that will change. While you can, in theory, get all the same security and block everything incoming with a Firewall. With IPv6 and a whole subnet under your control, you now can expose all your devices to the Internet and when the software on your router isn't good you not only can do that, it will be the default.

      So essentially in the worst case we will go from: Everything closed by default, without even a way to open it all up, to a world where everything is open for everybody. So while NAT might not be a security feature by itself, going IPv6 will pretty certainly open up a whole lot of new holes that we simply didn't need to worry about before.

    6. Re:How will the avalanche fall? by ledow · · Score: 1

      Or everyone will run their systems via a single machine that does firewalling, has a single address, blocks access to internal networks and provides VPN for those privileged users who still need it.

      Because it's a LOT easier to separate the world into external/internal and handle the transition through something like an authenticated VPN than having everything potentially accessible and just waiting for the moment you slightly misconfigure the firewall (not to mention having to know that there are seventy machines you could connect to, or whether your particular machine is on/off, rather than just connecting to a well-named and advertised gateway). Hell, on IPv4 it's outgoing traffic that you spend most of your time discarding, rather than incoming, as desktops try to broadcast their presence to the world.

      The point of a gateway is not just to act as some kind of IPv4 "fixer", but to simplify policy and addressing. IPv6 solves neither of those problems and certainly allocating a routable IP to everything imaginable (whether firewalled or not) is not something that's suddenly going to happen. For a start, your network admins will kill you and it will cause them headaches (i.e. instead of "I can't get on the VPN", you'll get "Someone's switched my computer off on the 23rd floor, could you just pop up....").

      As said in another reply to yourself - you could do this with IPv4 if you thought ahead. The problem is that it doesn't save you anything when only one machine can act as the gateway to the network anyway - all you do is make the firewall config a lot harder (and have to play with it more as a result) whereas you could have just added a user to whatever VPN you liked or similar and EVERYONE in the company would instantly know the way to access the network (by connecting to vpn.example.com and not desktop25184.example.com).

      NAT / Port-forwarding is certainly a hack, but it's not the reason to ditch IPv4 for IPv6 and there's always been ways around it. IPv6 deployments won't see any more publicly-routed traffic than previously.

    7. Re:How will the avalanche fall? by TemporalBeing · · Score: 1

      Or everyone will run their systems via a single machine that does firewalling, has a single address, blocks access to internal networks
      ...
      IPv6 deployments won't see any more publicly-routed traffic than previously.

      Unfortunately, IPv6 will break a lot of firewalls and security etc. It has already been well shown that IPv6 will enable even computers on private networks to escape the firewalls in place, completely bypassing the security restrictions.

      The issue is that IPv6 makes it really easy to have everything on the public network, and really hard to change that.

      I had considered changing my home network over to IPv6 only, and then run a 6-to-4 gateway on my server. However, I quickly found out that controlling the network addresses was a HUGE problem. With IPv4, I assign each system its own static IPv4 address based on its MAC address; and the IPv4 address is tied to the internal DNS. I can do it completely transparently. Similar stuff for IPv6 is still in its infancy, with the pro-IPv6 people for a long time completely ignoring DHCP. (Yes, DHCPv6 is now available, but no where near as complete and functional as DHCP for IPv4.)

      So a lot of the resistence to IPv6 has probably been due to the pro-IPv6 people's hatred for a lof the security, network management, etc. that people have come to love under IPv4. I will certainly run a 4-to-6 gateway for my internal network before giving up that kind of control, and I suspect many large organizations and their network nazi's will too.

      Summary: IPv6 is its own worse enemy; but it's getting better. Just don't expect it to be your friend any time soon.

      --
      Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a time, but it ain't goin' away. - Elvis Presley (source: imdb.com)
    8. Re:How will the avalanche fall? by jbolden · · Score: 1

      We don't need crazy ideas the major regulatory agencies are onboard. And their idea is simple. They are going to allow v4 addresses to be sold. So ISPs which have tons of v4 addresses now can convert them to cash for people who don't convert and pool up their addresses.

    9. Re:How will the avalanche fall? by dbIII · · Score: 1

      It has already been well shown that IPv6 will enable even computers on private networks to escape the firewalls in place, completely bypassing the security restrictions.

      Only if the firewall is incapable of dealing with IPv6.
      I'm sorry, but I don't see your argument of "X is rubbish if not fully implemented so let's not use X at all" as valid.
      Elements of it are going to be crap without hardware or software that supports it properly, but eventually it's going to be usable in more and more situations.

    10. Re:How will the avalanche fall? by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Those are good points but miss my main one. There's been ways to get remote access for years, but the key word I used above is "trivial", and none of them fit that description. One of the things that stops it being trivial is the lack of a clear path between the two machines because one has had it's address translated. Whether it's desirable in every case is not really the point either, the point is the user can't do it even if they own both endpoints unless somebody in the middle makes something available for them to allow the two endpoints to find each other, and there are scale issues if a lot of people want access (how many ports do you want to open up and forward? 100 ports for 100 users vs 1 for everybody with no need to forward). With unique addresses those problems can go away but you still have a gateway where policy can be applied. If VPN is being used purely as a hack to get around NAT it's a performance limit and layer of complexity that shouldn't be there. Of course there's good reasons to use VPN and they won't change.
      My off the top of the head example is more about access to home computers than business ones (with the associated control issues) I suppose. Once there is more than one machine behind the router that you want to get to then port forwarding is a pain and setting up a VPN for home is not trivial. I know I've never bothered - if it's too much hard work for me when I know how to do it then it's a bit much for a newbie that just wants to log in from their iPad on the spur of the moment and only just found it could be possible.

    11. Re:How will the avalanche fall? by locofungus · · Score: 1

      While it is true that NAT itself isn't a security feature, being limited to only a single IPv4 address and being forced to hide all devices behind a single IP address actually is. With a typical single-IPv4 address NAT network you simply can't expose all your devices to the Internet, it's impossible.

      Actually, a huge number of users CAN expose all their machines to the internet even when using NAT because for many people they only have one machine.

      Most, if not all, home routers are default configured not to forward much or anything but there's absolutely no reason why an IPV6 home router can't also block everything by default.

      What IPV6 will mean is that hackers won't just be able to scan the entire IPV6 address space looking for vulnerable machines.

      Tim.

      --
      God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = -@B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light.
    12. Re:How will the avalanche fall? by TemporalBeing · · Score: 1

      It has already been well shown that IPv6 will enable even computers on private networks to escape the firewalls in place, completely bypassing the security restrictions.

      Only if the firewall is incapable of dealing with IPv6. I'm sorry, but I don't see your argument of "X is rubbish if not fully implemented so let's not use X at all" as valid. Elements of it are going to be crap without hardware or software that supports it properly, but eventually it's going to be usable in more and more situations.

      You're missing the point - that's how network adminstrators and (more importantly) their bosses are going to look at it that way and make the decision that way.

      I certainly have full control over my firewall and what it supports (since it's a Linux-based server running Gentoo); so it's not as big an issue there from the firewall side; however, having the ability to control the network addressing is - I want my network to be private and fully controlled; no traffic gets in or out unless I say so. And that is (to an even greater extreme) how many large enterprises run their networks - so that would be a very valid issue for them; while it might not be for you.

      That doesn't mean not testing it or working with it; but it will prevent mass migrations and support by from big companies.

      --
      Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a time, but it ain't goin' away. - Elvis Presley (source: imdb.com)
    13. Re:How will the avalanche fall? by dbIII · · Score: 1
      Oh really? You've shifted to an argument that ignorance will drive the choice? Why did you even consider it worth typing that it? Do you really think it's going to be taken seriously?

      while it might not be for you

      Now that's just gettng petty and obviously the opposite of what I'm suggesting above. Since you are getting personal in your attack I have to say that I'm getting a very strong impression here that you don't actaully know what the fuck NAT is and really have to look at the crab TCP/IP book or similar to get some simple concepts of routing into your head. Then you may have something concrete to put up instead of hinting at emotional states of important people in some petty attempt to scare. We've not even strayed into anything unique to IPv6 and you already appear to be lost. Is that why I can't get the message across or do you actually understand the message but have some reason you disagree with it that you jsut have not been able to articulate yet?

    14. Re:How will the avalanche fall? by TemporalBeing · · Score: 1

      Oh really? You've shifted to an argument that ignorance will drive the choice? Why did you even consider it worth typing that it? Do you really think it's going to be taken seriously?

      It has nothing to do with ignorance and everything to do with what is available for managing networks with IPv6 installed. The fact is, there is a lot less support for doing things businesses deem critical for network management in IPv6 than there is for IPv4. Part of that is just the age and maturity of IPv6 and the various tools out there; but part of it is also by design.

      For example, by design IPv6 was not suppose to have DHCP ever - it was suppose to be built into the network by the local system providing its MAC address or another number as the lower bits and then auto-detecting the upper bits (Link Local). As a result, they ignored DHCP for a long time - it's only come about in the last couple years.

      Again, by design you were not suppose to ever using NAT'ing or other means of segregating networks or hiding a network (however large) behind a single IP (the purpose of NAT). They wanted everything on the public network. However, this means large security concerns as you now have a whole host of additional devices, etc. that would be on the network. Add to this the fact that at least early IPv6 (well, if you could 2009 still as being early IPv6) was known for getting out of firewalled networks - and yes, IPv6 firewalls were available (at least on Linux) at that point.

      So there is no ignorance involved. It is a matter of various security concerns that primarily businesses (and gov't) have with controlling who is on their network, and who has access to what, and how the architecture of the network. The IPv6 backers have largely ignored much of that, or designed methods that are inadequate to address the real concerns - even by design removing functionality entirely that was desired and necesary. Now the "design" is getting hacked up to add those features as IPv6 won't be able to go forward without them - the recent advent of DHCPv6 being one example.

      IPv4 was generally really simple; and you built tools to manage it. With IPv6 they tried too hard to build those things into IPv6 itself; thereby making it too complex. They should really have gone with a similar approach for IPv6 as they did for IPv4 - just keep IPv6 to addressing and let other standards, other tools do the rest.

      --
      Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a time, but it ain't goin' away. - Elvis Presley (source: imdb.com)
  23. Stupid analogy by sakdoctor · · Score: 2

    Comparing a drink made from a trade-secret formula, to all that creative commons content.
    If Wikipedia goes down, your look for a mirror.

  24. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You are getting tracked now on the IPv4 stack. So what is the difference?

  25. Re:Isn't it oblivious? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They already did, they've been posting stories about it for months and we protested plenty in the comments.
    Now its our turn, no amount of awareness will help if nobody complains like crazy to our representatives.

  26. Re:More importantly by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

    Sad for the guy who lost his body but not really important for me given that I live on the other side of the world.

  27. Unite all Post today support protest of SOPA, PIPA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why isn't Slashdot participating? Didn't they care about an open internet at one point??
    Slashdoters participate in the protest....
    All post to any article today should be in protest of SOPA and PIPA.

  28. Event logo wallpaper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I'm trying to create a wallpaper for the event, see here:

    http://minus.com/mkqbM0Sr6#2

    The XCF is in there too, but the preview is all wrong. Will post updated versions there unless someone comes along and does a better job (I'll admit it's not *that* hard).

    I'm using the SVG from the site: http://www.worldipv6launch.org/downloads/ .

  29. Re:IPv6 Info, disable Javascript to read Wikipedia by dfries · · Score: 2

    in a manner which brings attention to the issue, but does not disrupt normal operations.

    They put a really low bar to get around their block, just disable javascript reload and keep reading! At least that was my first thought when I viewed it and with konqueror it's an easy menu option to disable javascript for the current window. Now it looks like they disabled editing for every english wikipedia article, and that you can't get around.

  30. Re:IPv6 Info, bad link by dfries · · Score: 1

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPv6/

    I see you didn't actually visite the page, because that gives a page not found error, try this one, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPv6 and I verified it actually works, (just disable javascript).

  31. a sign of the apocalypse by commodoresloat · · Score: 5, Interesting

    First Duke Nukem Forever in 2011, and now this in 2012? What's up for 2013, Hurd??

    1. Re:a sign of the apocalypse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      We won't get that far. Mayan calendar and what not.

    2. Re:a sign of the apocalypse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you even think that there will be a 2013, given your subject is for Doomsday?

    3. Re:a sign of the apocalypse by pbf · · Score: 1

      Perl 6 for 2013! That would be cool... ok maybe 2014 if hurd wants the spot!

      --
      et les Shadoks pompaient...
    4. Re:a sign of the apocalypse by gman003 · · Score: 2

      Year of Linux on the Desktop.

    5. Re:a sign of the apocalypse by Xtifr · · Score: 1

      I don't think the fact that all the Mayan computers are going to crash this year is quite as big a deal as the Mayans thought! :)

  32. Re:Hey by akanouras · · Score: 1

    Try the HTTPS version instead.

  33. Re:IPv6 Info, disable Javascript to read Wikipedia by ThatsMyNick · · Score: 1

    I used NoScript to block the JS too, but only a few can use these workarounds. Some opt to use mirrors like thefreedictionary. For the masses though, they cannot use wikipedia for 24 hours, and they cannot work around it. It is a major disruption of operations, as far as they are concerned.

  34. Re:IPv6 Info, disable Javascript to read Wikipedia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Thats the freaking point. It should show everybody that if SOPA or PIPA or other shitty things get through, it will be a major disruption of operations. But not just for 24 hours. If you are america, watched the message and you decided to try and find an alternative rather then contacting your politician of choice, then you are the problem.

  35. Ha by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hah ahahahaahahahhaha yeah right.. Yeah Duke Nukem Forever and Cold Fusion really works too..

  36. Re:Hey by techno-vampire · · Score: 1

    I just checked, and it's blacked out too.

    --
    Good, inexpensive web hosting
  37. Finally, an end to Google's daft IPv6 policy by Lincolnshire+Poacher · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Did you know that for the past three year Google has actually published AAAA RRs for its online properties? However, the catch is that they won't serve you those as a response unless your /32 is on the list of vetted ISPs.

    Even if you query one of their public IPv6 resolvers ( e.g. 2001:4860:4860::8888 ) you'll not see a AAAA for YouTube or Google+ unless you're on the list.

    To pass the vetting an ISP has to demonstrate various technical aspects such as redundant, othogonally-routed global routes to Google's servers. For small ISPs such as mine, who have worked to implement native IPv6 connectivity, this is simply a step too far. So a proportion of the IPv6-connected world has to fall-back to v4 to talk to Google.

    Read more about the frustrating policy here: Google over IPv6.

    1. Re:Finally, an end to Google's daft IPv6 policy by grumbel · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There is nothing daft about that policy, it simply makes sure that their services work and are responsive, as there used to be a lot of broken IPv6 setups in the wild.

    2. Re:Finally, an end to Google's daft IPv6 policy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      as there used to be a lot of broken IPv6 setups in the wild.

      Well there are a lot of broken broadband setups too, with hideous line noise and lag, but I don't see Google withholding access from those people.

    3. Re:Finally, an end to Google's daft IPv6 policy by grumbel · · Score: 1

      Google isn't withholding access from anybody, all their services are perfectly reachable via IPv4 on a dual-stack network. The whole point of their police is to not block people with broken IPv6 setup, which they would be if they would enable dual-stack use for everybody.

    4. Re:Finally, an end to Google's daft IPv6 policy by swillden · · Score: 2

      as there used to be a lot of broken IPv6 setups in the wild.

      Well there are a lot of broken broadband setups too, with hideous line noise and lag, but I don't see Google withholding access from those people.

      The point isn't to withhold access, it's to make sure that when people with broken IPv6 setups try to use Google services, those services actually work as well as everything else on the web.

      All web browsers and most other Internet apps these days will try IPv6 first if DNS reports an AAAA name. If IPv6 doesn't actually work, though, you'll get nothing at all until the connection times out and the browser falls back to trying the IPv4 address. This makes for a really bad user experience, especially for Google web search, which prides itself on being extremely fast.

      Going global with IPv6 on June 6 (assuming that's the plan), is a pretty gutsy move, because it could well make Google's services less accessible and useful to people than competing services. The problem with be the fault of ISPs, routers, etc., but to the average end user it'll just be "Google is slow and Bing is fast".

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    5. Re:Finally, an end to Google's daft IPv6 policy by eladts · · Score: 1

      All web browsers and most other Internet apps these days will try IPv6 first if DNS reports an AAAA name. That's not true. It used to be like that several years ago, but most modern OS will prefer IPv6 for DNS lookups if and only if the computer has native (that is no 6to4 or teredo) address. Otherwise IPv4 is preferred.

    6. Re:Finally, an end to Google's daft IPv6 policy by swillden · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the correction. Perhaps that's why Google now considers it (somewhat) safe to turn on IPv6 globally.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
  38. Re:Hey by knifeyspooney · · Score: 2, Informative

    Or, just press ESC before it forwards you to the blackout page.

  39. Re:IPv6 Info, disable Javascript to read Wikipedia by ThatsMyNick · · Score: 2

    Blocking access to your service, in my opinion, is not the point. The point is to bring attention to SOPA/PIPA, inform them how serious this is. Not to deny service.

    And I had contacted my rep months ago. And I did not have to find an alternative as I knew it has to be done using a script and used noscript to block all scripts. I was just mentioned one of the possible ways someone can use wiki if they needed it (giving people this info, does not mean they will not contact their reps, neither does, not giving this info, mean people will contact their rep. Both are independent actions).

  40. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

    Slightly more precise tracking, possibly - rather than just tracking households by IP address, they could track individual computers within. As they already achieve that using cookies though, really nothing at all changes privacy-wise.

  41. Privacy isn't the responsibility of IP by KonoWatakushi · · Score: 3, Insightful

    NAT provides only the illusion of privacy; the problem isn't the addressing, but rather the huge centralized systems that we have come to depend upon and which are controlled by only a handful of entities.

    Meaningful privacy assurances require effort, and must be addressed at the application layer. This is best served by crypto and peer-to-peer communications, and keeping third parties out of the loop. IPv6 offers the possibility of restoring the most important and fundamental property of the Internet: the end-to-end principle. (If you haven't already, please read this.) IPv6 provides the basic foundation for applications of the future, allowing one to build in as much security, privacy, and anonymity as they may want. To communicate freely and on your own terms.

    The only lemmings I am worried about are the ones who needlessly cling to NAT, and would willingly cripple their own IPv6 networks with similar restrictions. The primary value of the Internet, is that it allows everyone connected to be an equal participant. Once you hoist a NAT (or overly zealous firewall) in front of your connection, you are turning yourself into a mere client, subject to the whims and abuses of some service provider.

    1. Re:Privacy isn't the responsibility of IP by grumbel · · Score: 2

      NAT provides only the illusion of privacy;

      First of, NAT provides no privacy, it's just a hack to allow you to use multiple devices behind a single IP, so while it might hide what device you are using, it doesn't hide the fact that you own that IP. What provides privacy on IPv4 are the dynamic IP addresses that you almost always get, as static IP addresses are an premium-only service. And those dynamic addresses don't just provide an illusion of privacy, they provide pretty real one, not unbreakable of course (cookies, Facebook-like buttons, browser fingerprinting, ISP log files, etc.), but good enough to circumvent any service that blocks you by IP and to make sure that the IP address isn't attached forever to your name, but only has long as the ISP log files aren't deleted (which might be weeks or month, but that still much better then years).

      The problem with IPv6 is that there is no longer a need to force dynamic IPs on the user, so ISPs can assign you a fixed prefix that will be the same for however long you don't change your ISP. You can still randomly switch the suffix port of your IPv6, but that won't really hide you when your prefix stays the same and identifies your account. So far with the bad news. The good news is that IPv6 doesn't require that behavior. First of, to get back the "hide my devices" "feature" of NAT can be replicated with the IPv6 Privacy Extension. And secondly, nobody is forcing your ISP to give you a static address, quite the opposite, IPv6 allows far more freedom in that regard. An ISP can give you for example both a static prefix, for your server hosting needs, and a dynamic one, for your random browsing needs, at the same time, and with IPv6 such a setup should be rather easy to setup. Furthermore IPv6 also has features to handle IP address changes cleanly, so as far as I understand, you should be able to switch IP address while you are transfering things without having the connection break down. You couldn't do that with IPv4, so IPv6 could allow more frequent address changes.

      And all that aside, IPv6 also has the very basic advantage that it turn the Internet back into peer2peer, without all the NAT trouble anonymization services and peer2peer services could work much more smoothly and thus make it much easier to build a real anonymous network on top of the Internet.

    2. Re:Privacy isn't the responsibility of IP by unixisc · · Score: 1

      With IPv6, you can still have dynamic IPs on your computer. Just define your DHCP6 such that one or more static addresses are assigned to it if an external computer is trying to connect to you (say your web server), while define a range of addresses that will change if you are sending data out. In fact, now, w/ the bonanza of addresses that you have in the Interface ID region, it's even easier to get dynamic or static IP addresses - as many as you want.

      The problem w/ IPv6 as far as privacy goes is not static or dynamic addresses, but the fact that the most usual scenario would be each home getting a /64. So if somebody wants to monitor you, they may not be able to exactly monitor individual members of a household, but they can certainly monitor the entire household, and given that the household will usually have members in the double figures, rather than anywhere near 2^64, it won't be difficult to determine who's visiting which sites. That is something that's both an IPv6 godsend - since it gives users more addresses than they would conceivably ever use - while @ the same time, just providing the global prefix in order for anyone to be monitored.

      The solution here would be to have utilities that monitor for any packet sniffing bots out there, and execute certain policies accordingly.

  42. Re:now is ATT going to swap modems that can't do I by spauldo · · Score: 1

    The new DSL service they're transitioning to requires new modems. I signed up for the service and they sent me an IPv6-capable Motorla router.

    From what I hear, they want to transition everyone from traditional DSL to the new service eventually. Your old modem won't work anymore, and you'll have to use their equipment, since they use a nonstandard type of DSL.

    Be warned, though, that setting up a traditional Linux firewall with one of those things is like pulling teeth. There's no PPPoE or bridge mode available (authentication is handled by the router), and while the Motorola routers have a mode where they let you have the public IP address (by default, the router takes it), you still have to get your DHCP and whatnot from the 192.168.1.x network. Maybe a multiple IP or static IP setup would work better, I dunno. I finally gave up on it and went back to cable.

    --
    Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach either, do tech support.
  43. Re:IPv6 Info, disable Javascript to read Wikipedia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I can't believe they did it that way. I use noscript too, and so I see no difference whatsoever. I can search and read as normal. It wasn't until I read you post and allowed the wikipedia and wikimedia sites to run scripts that I get the lockout.

  44. Which ISP? by coder111 · · Score: 1

    I assume you are from UK? Which is "your" ISP? Which ISPs in UK are offering IPv6? I know AAISP does, but are there any others?

    BTW, interesting info about Google- I didn't know they did that.

    --Coder

    1. Re:Which ISP? by Lincolnshire+Poacher · · Score: 2

      Yes, I am a UKian! In addition to AAISP, Goscomb and IDNet provide native IPv6 routing and /48 blocks to customers.

      Zen keep promising it with no delivery date, and Merula might be v6-capable by now.

      However of these only AAISP has been "vetted" by Google; they went through the process a couple of years ago when I was still a customer and it was both eye-opening and eye-watering in terms of the hoops that Google made them jump through. It was like watching an episode of Columbo; "...just one more thing...".

      I'm now with Goscomb, who haven't yet tackled the Google v6 obstacle course.

    2. Re:Which ISP? by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Enta.net also provide ipv6, although it is officially still on a trial basis and you have to explicitly ask for it...

      As for google providing v6 support, it down to your dns resolves... If you use the he.net resolvers then you will get AAAA records for google services. If you run your own caching dns server, just tell it to refer to he.net's dns when doing lookups for *.google.com.

      Part of the problem with v6 adoption is that even ISPs that support it, don't provide it by default, so only those who go looking for it will get it. I believe Proxad in France provides v6 by default, since my non tech oriented sites seem to get a fairly large number of v6 hits from them.

      Most users will use the isp supplied router, so if the isp enables v6 and ensures their standard routers support it to you will find that the majority of users will be running on v6 before too long.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
  45. Re:IPv6 Info, disable Javascript to read Wikipedia by Titoxd · · Score: 1

    I used NoScript to block the JS too, but only a few can use these workarounds. Some opt to use mirrors like thefreedictionary. For the masses though, they cannot use wikipedia for 24 hours, and they cannot work around it. It is a major disruption of operations, as far as they are concerned.

    Instead of disabling Javascript, you can access the English Wikipedia via the mobile site. Head to http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPv6 and enjoy your reading...

  46. If you want a round-the houses wiki article: by Chrisq · · Score: 1

    Try here

  47. Re:Hey by Canazza · · Score: 1
    --
    It pays to be obvious, especially if you have a reputation for being subtle.
  48. Re:Hey by Johann+Lau · · Score: 0

    fuck that. strike breaker.

  49. Here's an idea to all those who switched to IPv6 by Errtu76 · · Score: 1

    Give up your IPv4 addresses!

    And there was much rejoicing ..

  50. Re:Hey by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    add .m to the URL
    en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/whatever

  51. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 by Bert64 · · Score: 1

    The tracking would largely be worthless beyond the household level, if your household has 2^64 addresses and your ipv6 stack is configured to choose random temporary addresses you would have a hard time correlating anything...
    It's actually easier to track multiple users behind nat using cookies and browser identification techniques.

    --
    http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
  52. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 by gmack · · Score: 1

    Unless your computer supports Privacy extensions If it does your ipv6 address is not static but generated randomly.

  53. Re:Unite all Post today support protest of SOPA, P by TheRaven64 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The point of the protest is to raise awareness about SOPA / PIPA. You can lay pretty good odds that Slashdot readers are already aware of them...

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  54. Re:Hey by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strikebreaker

  55. This is happening by Nivex · · Score: 1

    To all those who say "It will never happen," I respond with an ancient Chinese proverb: "Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it."

  56. I'm ready! by bitflusher · · Score: 1

    Recently my ISP started an 'ipv6 pre-pilot', I instantly joined. I now run dual stack ipv4/ipv6 (stateless + dhcpv6) with an opendns ipv6 dns server. After the proper firmware was pushed to my modem it took me 15 minuted to config. Surprisingly i have had no problems at all. Windows vista/7 and android devices all receive/figure out both ipv4 and ipv6 configs. ipv6 incapable devices just kept humming without even touching them. Adding ipv6 was utterly uneventfull....bummer... Things I have done: I changed my startpage to http://ipv6.google.com/ (only for myself, other's don't care) Only sometimes i see something like the images: you are using ipv6 ffff:ffff:ffff:ffff:(yes too short) Using torrent I regularly see ipv6 peers (being connectable rocks) fun fact: the facebook ipv6 address is: 2620:0:1cfe:face:b00c::3

    1. Re:I'm ready! by ledow · · Score: 2

      What were you expecting to happen? IPv6 things will give you an IPv6 address and use it, and IPv4 things are unchanged. The majority of stuff is still IPv4-only and the only "surprising" thing is that the modem had a firmware that could handle it.

      The problem is not what happens when you have modern OS, good ISP, simple configs, IPv4 fallback and modems that have IPv6-firmware for them but how you get to that point.

      How do you upgrade servers and machines that aren't IPv6-enabled, how do you upgrade that old boiler software or access control software or internal wireless box to support things, how do you get an IPv6 address allocated to you on a business line, how do you make your servers accessible over both, how do you afford to replace all the things that can't be upgraded (for almost zero new "features"), how do you cope once IPv4 goes away completely, etc.?

      None of them are huge obstacles with proper planning, support and finance but almost nothing is a huge obstacle with proper planning, support and finance. The problem is that an awful lot of people *won't* be able to upgrade as simply as you did.

      It took ten minutes to IPv6 enable all my domains and servers and pass all the tests for them. But I still haven't managed to tunnel IPv6 into OpenVPN at my hosted server and use IPv6 natively from its allocated address. And tunnelling OpenVPN TO an IPv6 endpoint address still isn't possible as far as I can tell. My home connection is still IPv6-less, all my internal hardware uses only IPv4, etc. etc. but my laptop can connect to IPv6 networks no problem at all.

      This is the problem with IPv6 - there is no one magic switch to throw. *Everything* has to be inspected, evaluated, upgraded, replaced, configured, etc. in order to work. And for what benefit? At the moment none. In a few years, every ISP will just have 4to6 tunnels by default anyway to let people still on old hardware carry on without upgrades. But a single, simple IPv6 deployment means nothing. My servers are IPv6 and so is my laptop. Trouble is, finding a sod in between that cares about it (what about your 3G provider, for instance?)

    2. Re:I'm ready! by sveterv · · Score: 1

      Change your DNS server to 2001:4860:4860::8844 (it's a Google opendns alternative) and you will get all Google related sites (search, maps, images, gmail) with IPv6, YouTube also (opendns servers does not give you that posibility), so you will be able to check real things with IPv6 not only special sites for testing purposes.

    3. Re:I'm ready! by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Here are some downsides of not upgrading.

      1) A lot of OSes will create tunnels to v6 content. v4 security software doesn't understand v6 traffic. Your network will look like swiss cheese from a security standpoint.

      2) As end users begin to be in pools for v4 traffic things like geo location will fail. Also maintaining sessions may be more complex as their IP keeps getting recycled.

      3) v6 makes routing much less complex and thus brings down latency. You will start to see internet applications dependent on lower latencies that won't work on v4.

      The people running the internet want to move you to dual stack. They are not interested in letting you run non dual stack for a decade.

  57. Re:Hey by gbjbaanb · · Score: 2

    What the fuck happened to Wikipedia?

    It's all about SOPA which is explained here. Happy reading.

  58. Re:Organized trolling campaign on Slashdot by scottbomb · · Score: 0

    Don't forget about all the ads posted as "stories".

  59. Number of the Beast by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    June ( 6 ), 6th ( 6 ), ipv6 ( 6 ), 2012

    666 2012? anyone?

  60. Cisco E-series wireless rouer still have no IPv6 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It is nice to see Cisco claiming it will be backing IPv6. Maybe someday that claim will extend to it's E-series wireless routers instead of being just more Cisco marketing fluff.

  61. Two missing components by DarkOx · · Score: 1

    I think for a lot a deployments 6 only everywhere you can with a gateway for legacy stuff and the Ipv4 internet.

    You need two things,

    1. A 6to4 Nat gateway
    That way you can run one stack on most of clients. When they need to talk to an ipv4 only host, they route via the 6to4 gateway. Its the router for a /96. It assumes the last 32 bits of any destination address are the ipv4 address, and forwards the payload via ipv4.

    2. A slightly smart DNS, that when there is no AAA records for a given host, it returns the local network address with the 32bits from the ipv4 portion, to produce a host address. Obviously this could be an issue for DNSSec so you'd need you clients to trust an enterprise certificate or something so the server could sign the re-sign the request after validating up stream.

    I think that would make migration go much faster at many sites; but there does not seem and solid packages out there to do the job.

    --
    Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    1. Re:Two missing components by bbn · · Score: 1

      This is called NAT64 and DNS64.

      NAT64: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6146
      DNS64: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6147

      It is one of the worse transition methods in my opinion. DNS64 is stateless but is not compatible with DNSSEC. NAT64 is stateful and just another Large Scale Nat solution (ISP-NAT).

      The better method is dual stack. When the ISP is no longer able to provide sufficient IPv4 addresses they should using DS-lite with A+P: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6346

  62. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 by Imagix · · Score: 1

    Or your ISP is doing DHCPv6 and is assigning generated addresses to CPE devices.

  63. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

    Most IPv6 stacks will periodically acquire a new random address, so tracking the IP only gives you the network, just as it does with NAT. More importantly, they are required to support multiple IPv6 addresses, so you can have a static address for all incoming connections and multiple dynamic ones for outgoing connections. If Google gets two connections from different IPv6 addresses on the same subnet, they can't tell whether they're from the same computer or from two different machines (without using some other technique, like browser fingerprinting). Some stacks have a paranoid mode where each new outgoing connection gets a new IPv6 address.

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  64. FTP over IPv6 by xxxJonBoyxxx · · Score: 1

    For FTP over IPv6, read this:
    http://www.filetransferconsulting.com/File_Transfer_IPv6_Readiness.pdf
    (It's a report on interoperability performed for LAST year's IPv6 day.)

  65. Re:Hey by jgclark123 · · Score: 1

    Append ?banner=none to the URL.

    --
    "May evil beware, and may good dress warmly and eat plenty of fresh vegetables." -The Tick
  66. DHCP6 and autoconf by unixisc · · Score: 1

    DHCP6 is a very good alternative to autoconfiguration, which, as far as ethernet cards go, leak your MAC address the way it is defined. With DHCP6, you can take your entire /64, and define policies by which addresses are assigned to every device on your network. With autoconfiguration, you are locked into just one of those, and if that gets cracked, you're SOL.

    Yeah, if there ain't good DHCP6 tools out there, that's a problem, but a different one which has to be solved.

    1. Re:DHCP6 and autoconf by speculatrix · · Score: 1

      various OSs now randomize the mac to prevent leaking mac addresses, not that it actually protects you at home, only maybe on a large campus with loads of other people to share the blame.
      for many organisations, the bigger issue is preventing rogue route advertisements; similarly to stopping rogue DHCP servers; it allows people to conduct a MITM.
      Cisco switches can mitigate this: http://www.cisco.com/en/US/docs/solutions/Enterprise/Campus/CampIPv6.html

  67. It's not a chicken-and-egg problem by Ant+P. · · Score: 1

    It's an ostrich problem.

    It's nice that a handful of ISPs like Comcast have a clue (they even "get" open source), but 99% of others are too stupid to understand IPv4 is a sinking ship. Mine still does installations using bottom-dollar trash where the firmware's crippled by design -- it'll be in a landfill before it ever supports IPv6. They just wasted a fortune shipping those boxes out a year ago to every single one of their existing users.

    1. Re:It's not a chicken-and-egg problem by jbolden · · Score: 1

      If it is bottom dollar trash, how much of a fortune do you really think it is to waste them in a few years?

  68. LS-NAT by unixisc · · Score: 1

    The LS-NAT that you have w/ DS-lite - does it really have the same disadvantages that your normal static, dynamic or PAT have? My understanding was that it's somewhat different.

    With usual NAT interfaces, you get to a point where a NAT device tries to read a public address & port, and translate it to a private address & port using its internal look-ups. This violates certain protocols like IPSEC, since the NAT device has to tamper w/ the destination address and alter it before allowing it to continue, which IPSEC rightly identifies as a violation.

    But w/ DS-lite, the situation is different. You have a private IPv4 address encapsulated behind an IPv6 header and IPSEC, so that when they get to the CPE device, the payload's IPv6 is decapsulated, and IPSEC wouldn't see any violation, since the payload has arrived at its destination (the CPE point) unaltered. After the IPv6 header is removed, the payload continues to the IPv4 node using the IPv4 address provided to it by the IPv4 header that was encapsulated. In other words, no actual 'address translation' really happens here, and there is no tampering of any destination address the way there normally is w/ NAT.

    In short, what happens is analogous to a post office packing a parcel w/ an extra layer of packing w/ its own instructions to do whatever, and at the final post-office, before it's delivered to the destination address, that extra layer of packing is removed. This is different from if the post office were to scratch that address and put a forwarding address on the mail.

    I know it's called LS-NAT, but if my understanding is correct, what happens in DS-lite is anything but NAT. Also, behind every public IPv6 address @ the CPE, is there only one IPv4 address that's assigned to the node, or does the ISP use such a public IPv6 address and LS-NAT to provide IPv4 services to all its IPv4 customers who can't use IPv6? This point is not clear to me about DS-lite.

    1. Re:LS-NAT by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      DS-lite certainly does involve NAT.

      Firstly the lets go through the basics of how typical home internet connection works today (BTW CPE stands for "consumer premisis equipment, basically a fancy term for "home router").

      * The client sends an IPv4 packet from a private address to a public address.
      * The IPv4 packet travels across the local network to the CPE
      * The CPE changes the source address and port keeping a mapping table so it can perform reverse translation later
      * The IPv4 packet travels through the ISP's access network
      * The IPv4 packet travels through the IPv4 internet
      * The server replies to the IPv4 packet (swapping source and destination information as it does so)
      * The IPv4 reply tavels through the IPv4 internet
      * The IPv4 reply travels through the ISP's access network
      * The CPE looks at it's mapping tables and changes the destination information in the reply to the correct private IP and port
      * The IPv4 reply travels across the local network
      * The client receives the reply

      And here is how things work with DS-lite

      * The client sends an IPv4 packet from a private address to a public address.
      * The IPv4 packet travels across the local network to the CPE
      * The CPE encapsulates the IPv4 packet in an IPv6 packet, it SHOULD NOT perform any address translation
      * The IPv6 encapsulated IPv4 packet travels through the ISP's access network
      * The AFTR deencapsulates the packet and changes the source address and port keeping a mapping table so it can perform reverse translation and reencapsulation later
      * The IPv4 packet travels through the IPv4 internet
      * The server replies to the IPv4 packet (swapping source and destination information as it does so)
      * The IPv4 reply tavels through the IPv4 internet
      * The AFTR looks at it's mapping tables, changes the destination information in the reply to the correct private IP and port and encapsulates the reply in an IPv6 packet
      * The IPv6 encapsulated IPv4 reply travels through the ISP's access network
      * The CPE deencapsulates the packet and forwards it onto the local network
      * The IPv4 reply travels across the local network
      * The client receives the reply

      The only difference between a regular v4 NAT and the NAT in the AFTR is that the mapping table needs to keep track of the IPv6 addresses of the CPE in addition to the IPv4 address and port information a regular NAT tracks so that replies can be sent back to the correct CPE.

      Note that the only things that have changed are the CPE, the access network and the AFTR. From the point of view of the client, the server and the internet things work the same way they always did.

      As for compatibility with IPsec my understanding is that you should be able to use IPsec on the v6 side fine while on the v4 side it will have the same impact as any other NAT.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    2. Re:LS-NAT by bbn · · Score: 1

      DS-lite is really just a tunnel technology. The ISP has box somewhere with an IPv4 address. When this box receives a IPv4 packet with destination-port between 1000 and 2000 it knows that it has to forward the packet to customer 1. If the port is between 2000 and 3000 it goes to customer 2. Port 3000-4000 to customer 3 and so on. The port ranges are fixed at configuration by the ISP (not dynamic).

      The CPE at customer 1 knows that ports 1000 to 2000 is allocated to it. It does normal NAT but restricted to that port range.

      This allows the ISP to share one IP-address between multiple customers. The ISP box is completely stateless and therefore fast. They can probably get this as an extension to their backbone Cisco switches.

      The tunnel is just a normal IPv4 within IPv6 packet style tunnel. This existed already before DS-lite was invented. DS-lite brings "select tunnel end-point based on port-range" and "let the CPE handle the actual NAT which is memory and processor intensive". And finally DS-lite defines some DHCPv6 options to tell the CPE about all this.

    3. Re:LS-NAT by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      Sounds like you are confusing DS-lite with one of the competing mitigation technologies. DS-lite most certainly does use stateful NAT at the ISP

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    4. Re:LS-NAT by bbn · · Score: 1

      Yes, sorry. What I described is called DS-lite with A+P and was published at the same time as DS-lite.

      DS-lite RFC 6333 (August 2011): http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6333
      A+P extension RFC 6346 (August 2011): http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6346

    5. Re:LS-NAT by unixisc · · Score: 1

      Thanks for explaining this. One thing in your example above for the DS-lite case - are you assuming that both ends of the communication are IPv4 hosts? Or is that valid regardless of whether the initial destination point was IPv4 or IPv6?

      The other question - if the CPE is the point where the AFTR activities take place, does every IPv4 customer of the ISP receive a separate IPv6 address for each CPE, or does the ISP have a common address for all IPv4 customers within the network, and behind it, everything is an IPv4 intranet? Not that they need to conserve any /64 address ranges, but I was still curious.

    6. Re:LS-NAT by unixisc · · Score: 1

      First time I'm reading about A+P, but thanks. One question, though - doesn't this somewhat negate one of the advantages of IPv6 - to free up ports that get consumed in Port Address Translation?

      This also dovetails w/ my previous question - does every CPE in DS-lite get a /64 IPv6 address, or a /128, and let that CPE assign private IPv4 addresses to each device in that IPv4 network? Sorry if my questions seem too basic, but I haven't been able to find the answer in any of the books I've read so far on this: the description of DS-lite is all too brief.

    7. Re:LS-NAT by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      One thing in your example above for the DS-lite case - are you assuming that both ends of the communication are IPv4 hosts? Or is that valid regardless of whether the initial destination point was IPv4 or IPv6?

      DS-lite is a machanism for allowing IPv4 clients (including dual-stack clients) to access servers on the IPv4 internet through an IPv6 only access network. IPv6 clients will access the IPv6 internet directly through normal mechanisms (most likely the ISP will use prefix delegation to delegate a prefix to the CPE which will then advertise the prefix on the local network.

      DS-lite does not provide a mechanism for v4 only clients to access resources on the v6 internet or a mechanism for v6 only clients to access resources on the v4 internet, there are other technologies out there that can do that sort of thing but they get REALLY messy and the benefit is questionable given that most important resources are likely to remain available on the v4 internet for the foreseeable future and pretty much every client that supports v6 also supports v4.

      if the CPE is the point where the AFTR activities take place

      The CPE is NOT the point where the AFTR activities take place The AFTR is a machine at the ISP that performs deencapsulation and address translation for many CPEs.

      In this way ds-lite both allows IPv4 addresses to be shared among customers and means that the ISPs "access network" (that is the network that connects the ISPs customers to the ISP) can be IPv6 only and there is no need to assign any v4 address (public or private) to an individual customer.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
  69. IE on XP: GetFirefox.com by tepples · · Score: 1

    Mozilla Firefox and Google Chrome both support SNI on all platforms, as do Internet Explorer on Windows Vista and Windows 7 and Safari on recent iOS. Redirect users of Internet Explorer on Windows XP to the download pages for Firefox and Chrome. This leaves iOS pre-4 and Android 2.x as the only major operating systems that don't support SNI at all.

    1. Re:IE on XP: GetFirefox.com by cduffy · · Score: 1

      Redirect users of Internet Explorer on Windows XP to the download pages for Firefox and Chrome.

      Good luck selling that to management [and the client-relations team] when web traffic is the direct source of all revenue you split with your clients. (Also, Android 2.x still retains a very wide installed base).

      In a few years, maybe. Right now, no.

    2. Re:IE on XP: GetFirefox.com by tom17 · · Score: 1

      In other words, it's not ready to use yet.

      I just went through all this recently and thought similarly to you, but the reality is, there is still a lot of XP/IE out there and you can;t just ignore that audience yet if you want to appear professional. "Upgrade your stuff to use our site" does not instill confidence in a client when they can use all the other websites just fine. Plus it's not always up to them.

      Soon, my friend. Soon.

      Posted from my corporate XP workstation, albeit from Firefox :)

  70. SNI will work starting in 2014 by tepples · · Score: 1

    Relying on SNI means you leave out users of Android 2.x devices, and you leave out users of Windows XP who lack privileges to install anything other than Internet Explorer. But once Android 2.x devices come to be replaced with Android 4.x devices and Microsoft ends extended support for Windows XP, SNI should be safe to deploy. I'm thinking mid-2014.

  71. IPv6-only porn by tepples · · Score: 1

    There are no IPv6-ONLY services

    I remember there being a porn site that could only be accessed through IPv6. Google ipv6 porn once the SOPA strike ends.

  72. Paying to replace IPv4-only home routers by tepples · · Score: 1

    You could either get into the 21st century and enable IPv6 on your network

    How should I do that without paying to replace my Netgear WGR614v6 with something else?

    1. Re:Paying to replace IPv4-only home routers by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      How should I do that without paying to replace my Netgear WGR614v6 with something else?

      6to4, toredo, 6in4. There are lots of technologies that will allow you to access the ipv6 network via ipv4 equipment.

  73. One-time Pads by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

    made up of IPv6 addresses...

  74. So its by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

    the catch is that they won't serve you those as a response unless your /32 is on the list of vetted ISPs.

    So it's more like ipVIP6.

    /Champagne Room Router

  75. Do I need a new router at home? by edmicman · · Score: 1

    Because for the most part, even though I know and understand what's going on I don't care enough to upgrade my old Linksys wireless router until it dies. I sign up for cable or DSL internet service, pick up a router at Best Buy or Newegg, plug it in, and everything just works. I'm pretty sure my podunk small cable operator isn't participating in ipv6 day; the CSRs I've talked to don't even know what it means. I think we have a *long* way to go before any home user is affected.

    1. Re:Do I need a new router at home? by grumbel · · Score: 1

      Unless you happen to have one of the few routers that actually supports IPv6 or provides a firmware upgrade, yes, you will have to get a new router. However you won't have to get one anytime soon. IPv4 and IPv6 will coexist for many years or even decades to come. It will be a long time before any major service switches off it's public IPv4 address. The first piece of IPv6-only service will probably be some obscure P2P thing, but even those will take years to even show up.

    2. Re:Do I need a new router at home? by jbolden · · Score: 1

      I think you are wrong there. poduck small cable operator is going to be able to sell their ip allocation. That's an incentive for them to do the work.

  76. Re:Cisco E-series wireless rouer still have no IPv by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The launch site includes a list of participating home router vendors, where Cisco and D-Link are both listed with links where they list what routers of theirs currently have IPv6 support.
    The Cisco list has several Linksys E-series routers.
    Not to say it isn't about bloody time. Selling non-IPv6 network equipment in this day and age is practically a scam.

  77. Re:Hey by Johann+Lau · · Score: 1

    that just breaks my heart. recursively. :P

  78. Running IPv6 at home by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is good news.

    I have been running IPv6 in my little part of the Universe for about a year (I had been meaning to do it for 10 years). I even have a subnet at home that is running 100% IPv6. Interestingly enough, while IPv6 is fine and well supported by FreeBSD, Linux, Mac OS, Windows, etc., it is not easy to run a plain PC or Mac in an IPv6 only world, as a number of things still expect IPv4 to be visible (or at least, I haven't found the ways to get around it). For instance, while Windows has had support for IPv6 for quite a while, the Windows Vista machine on that IPv6 segment cannot seem to find Windows update, and hence no patches get downloaded, which isn't nice.

    Browsing the web is also frustrating, because even though Google is visible on the IPv6 internet, the search results returned don't all point to IPv6 addresses (unless I haven't found who to enable that). Yes, I could dual-stack, but the idea is to try IPv6 only in that segment.

    Are many people living in IPv6-only worlds with PCs and Macs? How do you do it?

  79. I'll switch as soon as by ugen · · Score: 1

    I'll switch as soon as I find a viable NAT solution for IPv6. I *like* devices in my home network to be hidden behind a single IP address for privacy and convenience. I am not willing to allow these devices to use public IP.

    I looked into this last year, and Linux was not a viable solution since current iptables developers are unwilling to provide IPv6 NAT for what can only be described as "religious" reasons (they know better what I need). FreeBSD provides rudimentary IPv6 NAT, but at the time it was not in a great shape.

    Ideally, I'd prefer something built into DWRT or similar firmware, but will settle for anything else that I can make into a home router.

    As soon as this is available, I am on IPv6 faster than you can say "switch"

    1. Re:I'll switch as soon as by Yosho · · Score: 1

      I'll switch as soon as I find a viable NAT solution for IPv6. I *like* devices in my home network to be hidden behind a single IP address for privacy and convenience. I am not willing to allow these devices to use public IP.

      Here's the thing: it's never going to happen. NAT is a hack, and one of the major purposes of IPv6 is making it unnecessary. Really, there is no point to it.

      Here is your problem: you don't want people outside your network to be able to access computers inside your network.

      Here is the solution: configure your router to drop all incoming connections (in fact, that's probably the default).

      There is no added convenience to NAT; it adds extra complexity to routing and makes it a pain to host servers, especially if you have multiple servers that want to listen to the same port. The added privacy (requests all coming from a single IP) is an illusion; anybody who actually wants to tell the connections apart can do packet inspection to look for the characteristics of different computers.

      From the perspective of the developers, you're wanting them to spend a considerable amount of time implementing a feature that is completely pointless for reasons that are just as "religious" as you accuse them of being.

      --
      Karma: Terrifying (mostly affected by atrocities you've committed)
    2. Re:I'll switch as soon as by rdebath · · Score: 1

      You better get switching then, IPv6 NAT an exact duplicate of the IPv4 support in linux has been added

      Personally I don't see why you should want to put everything behind a single address, everything on one machine would make you look like a more promising target. But I will like having the transparent proxy support. That way I'm on MORE machines and "they" attack the wrong one.

  80. The economics of NAT: Winners, losers by jmorris42 · · Score: 1

    Yes, there are whole business models predicated on the existence of NAT and overly agressive firewalling. You don't need gotomypc.com if VNC 'just works', you don't need most of what gotomeeting provides anymore if PCs are all equal peers on the Internet as it was in the beforetime. VOIP becomes dead simple and no longer requires a massive central host or the antics of Skype. Just a simple presence locator/dynamic DNS type service and folks just directly connect to each other. Same for instant messaging/sms.

    But I do have to side with the doubters/deniers who don't see ipv6 widely deployed anytime soon. Can't see a way our of teh chicken and egg the problem presents. There isn't a tangible benefit to the conversion for the first movers yet they will pay the early adopter high prices. So everyone will do limited tests just to be able to check the box and wait for someone else to do the first massive deployments, take the bad PR from the horrific screwups, publish articles on the pitfalls, etc. And in another decade we will still be waiting to hit critical mass and annual articles will declare THIS year the year of ipv6... and of Linux on the Desktop.

    --
    Democrat delenda est
  81. Re:More importantly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So you're saying: the dogs give head?

  82. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Most IPv6 stacks will periodically acquire a new random address.

    and yes that breaks shit too. Nothing like having a really long download session abort because Windows spontaneously canged your IPv6 local address.

  83. Re:IPv6 Info, disable Javascript to read Wikipedia by fluffy99 · · Score: 1

    in a manner which brings attention to the issue, but does not disrupt normal operations.

    They put a really low bar to get around their block, just disable javascript reload and keep reading! At least that was my first thought when I viewed it and with konqueror it's an easy menu option to disable javascript for the current window. Now it looks like they disabled editing for every english wikipedia article, and that you can't get around.

    Or just hit ESC before it redirects. Then again it's the clueless people that they want to make aware of these congressional bills.

  84. Comcast IPv6 ? Hard to swallow after CableCard by ChefJoe · · Score: 1

    After years of seeing my SB6120 cable modem (with Comcast's special sauce firmware beamed into it) display "MDD IP Mode Override (MIMO) IPv4 Only, Modem's IP Mode IPv4 Only" I'm taken aback by Comcast's statement to support IPv6 across much of their network in 5 months. Unfortunately, it also reminds me of the statements of absolute commitments they made to support full two-way CableCard solutions on their network until just enough customers/manufacturers/etc stopped believing CableCard could ever work out and the FCC officially stopped pushing for CableCard (in favor of some software-based standard that has also been stillborn).

  85. Re:I'm not changing to IPv6 by kasperd · · Score: 1

    Nothing like having a really long download session abort because Windows spontaneously canged your IPv6 local address.

    I don't use Windows, so I didn't know about that bug. But I would say Microsoft should go and fix that bug. And if Microsoft won't fix that bug, then you should consider using a different operating system, that doesn't suffer from said bug.

    The correct implementation of privacy extension would by default do the following: At system boot each interface is assigned two link local addresses as well as two IPv6 addresses per router advertised on that network segment. One of the two addresses would be based on the MAC address and hence be static, the other address would be randomly generated (according to the spec). Incoming connections can use any of the IP addresses. Outgoing connections will use the randomly generated address (unless the application explicitly overrides that choice by binding to a different address). Every 24 hours more randomly generated addresses are added, again one link local address per interface plus one per router advertised on that network segment. The new randomly generated addresses are made default. The old randomly generated addresses remain on the interface until they are no longer in use, and only then they are removed.

    If Windows didn't suffer from the bug you mentioned, then it would notice that there was an open TCP connection using that old address and thus would keep it on the interface even though it wasn't the default for new outgoing connections anymore.

    And when I said that the above should be the default, it should of course allow the user to configure it. For example the 24 hour interval could be configurable. In addition there is a few possible tweaks. For example you might not need privacy extension on link local addresses. It will be of limited use since for a link local connection the other endpoint can see the MAC adress anyway. In addition the 24 hour interval could be made in a way that doesn't synchronize the adding of new addresses. If you have two interfaces and receive two prefixes on each of those there is no need to update all four addresses at the same time. Doing it at the same time might reveal some information to the peers you are communicating with, and it will also reveal information about your uptime. Instead the first assigned address is given a lifetime chosen uniformly between 1s and 24h. After that it is updated every 24h.

    --

    Do you care about the security of your wireless mouse?
  86. Does IPv6 make Porn Download Faster??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If it makes porn download faster then I'm cool wid dat, Yo, just sayin'.

  87. Re:IPv6 Info, disable Javascript to read Wikipedia by hutsell · · Score: 1

    They [wikipedia] put a really low bar to get around their block, just disable javascript reload and keep reading! At least that was my first thought when I viewed it and with konqueror it's an easy menu option to disable javascript for the current window. Now it looks like they disabled editing for every english wikipedia article, and that you can't get around.

    An alternative: View (Page) Source; menu or right click menu or hotkey (such as: ctrl + u). Not an easy read, especially if you're one of the rare few on /. unable to understand the purpose of the client-side source code languages--but a workable solution for myself when I unexpectantly needed to use it on that particular day.

    --
    Yesterday's Weirdness is Tomorrow's Reason Why
  88. Here is your mistake by dbIII · · Score: 1

    They wanted everything on the public network

    No, they wanted everything addressable as if it was on a public network just like on IPv4 before we had to use a hack like NAT because it was hard to get numbers. You still have routers + firewalls and you still get to decide what is public and what isn't.
    Also, of course IPv6 firewalls are available, but who the fuck fed you the lie that " IPv6 ... was known for getting out of firewalled networks"? Where you confused because the first tests way back when were done with firewalls off to make it a simple test?

    It's just an addressing scheme and not an entirely new way to do networks. About the only major change is the hack of NAT is no longer necessary, and it is a pointless hack that not only breaks things but could always have been replaced for the same functionality so long as there are enough addresses. WTF do you think we did before NAT or in places with enough addresses that they don't need it? Well guess what, we can do that again with IPv6.
    So there you go, "large security concerns" are "ignored" because they are not a fucking problem but just networking as usual. The only problem is people think losing the nasty hack of NAT will somehow make things less secure because to them it is a magical incantation that they imagine does everything when in reality it does very little.