Xbox 720 Might Reject Used Games

silentbrad writes "Online passes are a recent staple in staving off used sales. Limiting what used buyers can access is a protective measure for publishers, much to the chagrin of parts of the gaming community. Chris Kohler of Wired argues that the death of used games is inevitable, and passes are the first step toward something exactly like a native anti-used game something integrated into consoles. He notes, of course, that digital is the future of buying games, but in the meantime we may be looking at 'an interim period in which the disc as a delivery method is still around but ... becomes more like a PC game, which are sold with one-time-use keys that grant one owner a license to play the game on his machine.' Also at Kotaku, the source for the Wired article (which is the source for the IGN article)."

Comments

You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

Because you should turn around twice and walk away.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

goddamnit if you started facing it you'd just turn around twice and walk into it.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[tripleevenfall]

Personally, the online keys were the last straw for me.

The fact that used games were available at half price was the reason I was playing in the first place. I trade the first 6-12 months of a game's release for the discount. I wouldn't pay $60 to cram into Modern Warfare on release day with everyone else anyway.

This is the miscalculation the game companies are making - they won't be able to force us into playing $60 and up for games we'd previously bought used for $30, we just won't play the games at all.

They are also missing the point that the presence of a used market drives sales, because you aren't so skittish about blowing $60 on a game if you know you can recoup some of that later.

This is a bad idea. I know that suits and PHB's think "Well, they can't get used games anymore - they'll buy the full priced ones instead!" but they've got another thing coming.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

Game companies don't care that you won't pay $30 for the used game anymore. Remember, THEY don't get that $30. They get NONE of it. To them, this is perfectly fine.

I'm not saying that they should be doing this, I'm just saying they did think it through.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[St.Creed]

You're very right. The automotive industry does its best to maintain the used car market precisely because of this reason: if buyers of new cars don't have an outlet for their cars, they stop buying new cars every 2-3 years but instead drop down to buying one every 10 (or even more) years. Not good.

I'm guessing that any drop in sales will be blamed on piracy though, instead of the retarded policies of the gaming industry.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Grishnakh]

What you're missing is that, without a used market for buyers of new games to recoup some of the cost of their unwanted games with, they simply won't buy as many new games.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[AngryDeuce]

Not to mention the other "used market" on The Pirate Bay.

Well, unless they're going to create the first unhackable/unmoddable console in history. In that case, consider the gauntlet thrown down, Microsoft...

You want to sell more new copies of a game? Have a non-insane pricing plan that actually decreases the cost of new games progressively as time goes on. Yes, I know they have the "Greatest Hits" line, but honestly most games they ever add to that are the ones that sold so many copies new that Gamestop won't even buy them due to having a dozen copies already they can't get rid of at $10 a piece.

If these guys started giving the consumer incentive, rather than treating them as adversaries so often by locking them out of their own hardware/software, they would probably sell a lot more, but I doubt they'll ever try, so we'll never know...

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[bondsbw]

It's not just about the cost. Today's games also focus on building up a community. Even games like Halo have a huge following of people who play just to have fun with their friends, and who would never play if not for that social interaction. (I am one of them.)

If Joe Blow can't buy a reduced-cost copy of Halo, he won't be part of the growth of such a community. And if I can't sell my copy, I might not be willing to try it out to begin with.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[tripleevenfall]

Without a used market they won't sell me a new console, controllers, etc.; they'll lose revenue on the few games I would actually buy new; they'd lose any money I might spend on digital purchases as well.

There's also the risk I would be driven to a competitor's product, or lose interest in gaming altogether, which costs them down the road.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Gr33nJ3ll0]

There's a difference in the markets. Cars are a tool, and essentially one tool is like any other. So it's to their benefit to provide you with a place to dispose of your unwanted (but still useful) car. Games are very different (or there would be lawsuits :) ), you can use multiple games at the same time, and you don't need one to function in society. A better analogy would be the car makers maintaining the used motorcycle, and scooter markets.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[rogueippacket]

Further to the point, they are going to wipe out brick-and-mortar distribution stores overnight - used games and warranties are the only things keeping those stores afloat today. These publishers better be ready for digital-only distribution the day they do this, but even then, they will have severely limited accessibility to their product. Weekend browsers, impulse shoppers, kids without credit cards, and parents shopping for their kids will all be impacted, and these are fairly large groups. Some consumers will adapt, but most will just move to platforms which provide greater value (99c iOS Apps, anyone?) for less hassle.
Now, I'm not saying that cutting out the middleman is a bad thing - Steam did this quite well, and to the benefit of everyone through their legendary Steam Sales. But I can't see a market dominated by big players accustomed to $60 price points adapting before their agile competitors snap-up a good chunk of their alleged profit.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

If you watch games on steam, you'll see that blockbuster games start off at full price, but within a year there's normally a 25% or more discount. Classic games like Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas can be had NEW for $15. Quake III is $10. Civilization 3 is $5.

$30 for a used game actually seems high. Who loses out here are consumers who can't make back a little money, but really places like Gamestop that sell used games at a 300% markup. This money instead goes to the game publisher with hopefully some of it back to the developer.

I too have issues with internet registration and DRM. Generally PHB's know a thing or two about how to price products.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

Like St. Creed says below, the used game market helps drive the new game market.

If Person A buys a game for $60 because they know they can sell it to "Used Game Store" for $20 when they get bored with it, then that's $60 in "Game Company Pocket". If Person A wouldn't buy the game for $60 if they couldn't sell it for $20, then that $60 that would have gone to "Game Company Pocket" never gets there.

Person B will by the game for $60 anyway.

Person C will buy the game for $30, putting $10 in "Used Game Store Pockets" and driving Person A to buy more games at $60. Person C may find new publishers/series, and may at some time buy a $60 game.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[s73v3r]

That, and the availability of downloadable games. Between my GameFly subscription (which usually only brings me older games anyway) and stuff on XBLA, I don't really buy any new games.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[s73v3r]

I would like to see numbers on how true this is. I don't think a lot of people buy games with the intent of trading it in later.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[mlts]

It might just give impetus for more indies to hit the PC game market where the barrier for entry is basically paying for an Authenticode signing key, or a yearly membership for use of iTunes Connect. Instead of paying $60, one can pay $20 for a game like Torchlight that may not have the latest and greatest eye-popping graphics, but is very playable.

Consoles may be hitting the skids, but with the fact that stores/repos/markets are becoming commonplace, it isn't hard for an indie to get in the ball game and be a link away from having a good game. Possibly another ID with an awesome game demo might even appear.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Translation Error]

Well, realistically, that's probably what most people will do--drool over the shiny new system, loudly proclaim they're not going to buy it if it won't play used games, turn their back for a while before drooling over it again a couple of times, and then go ahead and buy it.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Grishnakh]

It's true for used cars, why wouldn't it be true for games? You think teenagers and 20-somethings have tons of cash to buy games and then throw them away if they don't like them or are done with them?

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think a lot of people buy games with the intent of trading it in later.

That's the wrong way to think about it. Someone may not consider whether they can trade a game in when buying a new game, but when they do trade in a game, it's often to purchase a new game. The sales that will be lost are not the initial ones but the subsequent ones where gamers are applying their trade-in value to lower the cost.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[hairyfeet]

180, you stupid, spaghetti-slurping cretin - *180*! If I did a 720, I'd go completely around and end up back where I started!

Seriously though WTF does this have to do with the 720, or the mii, or the PS4 for that matter? this is just some douche blathering on about what could possibly maybe happen sometime in the future. Well i might grow wings out of my ass and fly south for the winter but that don't mean its gonna happen, especially not with sony looking for any advantage it can get against MSFT. Can you imagine how quickly Sony would jump on that? 'You can't buy used or rent games for the 720 but you can the PS4. Come over to the PS4, its nicer here" and watch the 720 sales take a dump. MSFT may be dumb but it ain't retarded...well not THAT retarded anyway, Win 8 dev preview has made me lower my estimate of the collective IQ at Redmond by a dozen points or so.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[tripleevenfall]

No, of course they won't. Their incentive is to drive profits upward, not downward.

I'm sure they will want to eliminate physical disks in the future too, because it's an uncontrollable medium. MSFT will want everyone playing digitally downloaded games (which cost the consumer the same as the physical ones), which are really only a license-to-play and can be deleted from your drive or non-supported by XBL at any time.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[tripleevenfall]

Some of us want a more robust gaming experience than TuxSweeper, et al

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[ColdWetDog]

It's true for used cars, why wouldn't it be true for games?

Because cars cost lots more than games.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Telvin_3d]

Because the stores don't pay very much for used games. The used game that you bought for $30 (instead of $45 new or probably $20 on a Steam sale), the store paid $5. At most. Yes, the stores will occasionally pay as much as $10 for new and hot titles, but those get sold used for as little as $5 off the price of a new copy.

The used games stores are bad for the industry. All the bad things that publishers say about games piracy? The loss of sales and money being diverted away from the people who make the games? The need to jack up prices to make up for sales lost due to alternate means of acquisition? All that shit is actually true about the used games industry. With the kicker that the people lost to the used games pawnbrokers are actually paying customers, which is something you can't say about the pirates.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Kjella]

What you're missing is that, without a used market for buyers of new games to recoup some of the cost of their unwanted games with, they simply won't buy as many new games.

No, but if they only want to pay $30 because they'd buy at $60 and sell at $30 after a year they will now buy when eventually the price is lowered to $30 because nobody will buy at $60 anymore. Or they can offer both a $60 buy and $30 1-year lease option on release day. There's no way they lose money by being able to totally price discriminate. In fact, they can manipulate the market by fixing it at certain price points without interference from second hand sales, enticing people to buy because the price won't go down anyway. And they can now perfectly discriminate between territories without any gray market or cross-territory second hand sales.

Where they also win is that they exclude all the people whose value change. Say you bought it at $60 and wasn't planning to sell it, so you're indifferent to whether it's a transferable or non-transferable license. Then you find out you didn't actually like the game or grew bored with it and would like to sell it for $10 then you can do that, before you could but now you can't. Instead they now get to sell a $10 game instead of your "unplanned" $10 sale. Of course an entirely rational mind would see this, but as long as you think the value is greater than the price at the time of purchase it is still rational to buy. It is only after you have more information that the game tree has been reduced to your disadvantage.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[localman57]

The sales that will be lost are not the initial ones but the subsequent ones where gamers are applying their trade-in value to lower the cost.

Except that that's also the wrong way to thing about it. After Gamestop or whoever gives you that credit for your used game, they don't take it out back and set it on fire. They sell it to someone else, at a discounted price. Compare that to Steam, where you can go and buy old games for like $10 or $20 (Which I generally find to be a better value than the used console games at the Used Game stores). The publishers get a big hunk of that money. Consider If you trade in Awesome Game 2, and Get a credit for Awesome Game 3, from EA's point of view, vs if you just buy Awesome Game 3. They make the same amount of money on Awesome Game 3, but lose the ability to sell Awesome Game 2 at a discount to someone who would buy it via Steam or similar.

Ultimately, the distribution cost via digital is almost negligible. Expect EA to price games based on formula P * Q = R where P is price per game, Q is quantity sold, and R is revenue. There's some P which results in a maximum R. Then, factor in the sales they'll make after release, where P decreases over time. These are where the real advantage for publishers come in with one-time buys, as this revenue is icing on the cake. Eventually, they then sell the whole thing to some 3rd party for a lump sum, like Microsoft does with its old Flight Sim / AOE titles.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[localman57]

Also, cut and pasting an Amazon.com really long, annoying code into Steam or Origin is a heck of a lot less annoying than typing one in using a XBox 360 or PS3 controller. I don't actually see a lot of people putting up with this.

These are easily solved technical problems. For instance, consider if the manufacturer printed the code as a QR code on a 5"x5" piece of paper that you just hold up in front of a Kinect.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[GuldKalle]

Depends.
Old car: $2000 / 1000 kg
Old game: $20 / 100 gram
Games are worth 100 times more than cars.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Pentium100]

The same can be said about used cars, PCs, electronics, almost any physical object, so what? The way I see it, the industry wants to have it both ways:

When piracy is concerned, the industry says "a copy of a game is a product, pirating it is pretty much like stealing a DVD (or a car)". OK, so I guess my copy of the game is just another physical object and I should treat it like that (after all, I do not copy a lot of physical objects).
So, selling a used physical object is perfectly fine - I can sell (or buy) a used car, a tape deck, a PC and many other things. I have bought a lot of used equipment, mostly because I cannot afford new one or it is no longer made. So, if a copy of the game should be treated as a physical object, then it should be perfectly fine for me to sell it or give it away, assuming, of course, that I did not keep a "backup". Except that the industry really does not like it and takes steps to prevent it and make it so when I buy a game, I'm stuck with it forever. When I buy a TV and it turns out I do not like it I can return it (within 14 days) or sell it at a lower price - taking a loss, but still recouping some of the money paid.
You don't hear Intel bitching about all those used PCs sold to people. Or Mercedes bitching about used cars. Or just old cars, the way Microsoft is bitching about the fact that people still use Windows XP and *gasp* do not want to pay them money for a slightly better OS.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[stevenvi]

Because the stores don't pay very much for used games.

Indeed, but you're forgetting that you can bypass used game stores and sell directly with sites such as Amazon, half.com, ebay, etc.

So, for example, when I buy a used game for $30 -- because I never buy brand new games, and I don't care to play online anyways, I can sell it again in a few weeks for approximately the same price, minus the cost of shipping.

The used games stores are bad for the industry.

I disagree. If buying new were the only option I had, I would simply do without. It's the same argument for pirates -- if they had to pay full price, they'd simply do without. This isn't something that I personally lose any sleep over. It's very easy to stop consuming (overpriced) entertainment, and there are many alternatives in the world to occupy one's time with.

Fair disclosure: I'm a software developer in the video games industry. (And I'm supposed to be writing some code right now. :-X)

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Pentium100]

Yes, cars wear out, but they can be fixed (and older cars can be fixed easier - one of the reasons I use a 30 year old car - for example, the electrical system is quite simple, compared to newer, computer controlled, cars). Same is true for other older hardware too - tape decks etc.

As for software, while it is essentially immortal (or at least lasts as long as the hardware that supports it), games are different from tools, such as the OS or an office suite. If I can live without the new features (or I actually like the older version better), I can use the old OS for a long time. However, once I am done with a single player game, I might want to replay it after a few years, but not now. Multiplayer games are a bit better in that regard, but I can still get bored and decide I want a new game. So I will sell my used copy of the game to reduce the price on a new game. I do not think that there are a lot of people who play a single game over and over again, while there are a lot of people who use the same OS every day for many years.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Kjella]

Yeah, that's stupid. They are both luxury items, especially when new. Or maybe you think the 75% of the world that doesn't own a car isn't getting by at all.

Does not own a car != does not have access to a car. A couple with children that share a car have as far as I consider it all a car, so you can multiply the 1 billion plus cars with a pretty big factor. I don't own a car but it's because I live in a fairly big city with good public transportation so I only exceptionally need one and I have family I can borrow from and several leasing/pooling options as well. That does not in any way mean I consider cars as a luxury. I consider it a basic transportation tool that I happen to not have any need for on a daily basis. I think it comes down to your meaning of luxury, yes people lived before refrigerators, washing machines, dishwashers, microwaves, TV, radio, computers, cell phones and even electricity. Some people still do, but does that mean billions are living in luxury today?

Standards change, 20 years ago having a cell phone was a luxury. Today there's over 5 billion cell phone subscriptions (july 2010) and it's the standard of living for all but the poorest people on earth, and even they typically share one in some form. Cars have long ceased to be any form of luxury in any sense I'd care to define it. It has become the backbone of society that let people get around and if you don't have one because you can't afford one even though there's not any good alternatives then you are poor, not missing a luxury. Society adapts too, when so many drive to the store it becomes longer between shops. Workplaces place themselves in commuting distances, not walking distances. In many rural areas it's now difficult to function in society without a car, it might not strictly be a necessity but your quality of life will be greatly diminished without one.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[lightknight]

Lack of hats?

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[ColdWetDog]

Depends.
Old car: $2000 / 1000 kg
Old game: $20 / 100 gram
Games are worth 100 times more than cars.

You aren't smoking either of them, dude.

At least, I hope not.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Grishnakh]

By your own admission, you DO participate in the used market (as a seller). So even though you don't often sell your used games, you do sometimes, and that helps justify your expenditure (and lower your risk): basically, if you try one out and you end up hating it, you have a way of recouping part of the cost. By eliminating that, you're going to be much more reluctant to try out games you aren't really familiar with.

It's like people who buy stuff on Ebay, and if they don't like it or don't need it, they "rebay" it. When you're buying stuff, you're less cautious when you have a way of getting a partial return, just like people who shop at places like Walmart will buy stuff more readily because if they take it home and the clothes don't fit right, or their kid doesn't like it, they can just take it back for a full refund.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[pscottdv]

Because the stores don't pay very much for used games. The used game that you bought for $30 (instead of $45 new or probably $20 on a Steam sale), the store paid $5. At most.

I'm almost always surprised at how much money Game Depot is willing to pay for my used crap. Mega Media Exchange pays even better.

The used games stores are bad for the industry. All the bad things that publishers say about games piracy? The loss of sales and money being diverted away from the people who make the games? The need to jack up prices to make up for sales lost due to alternate means of acquisition? All that shit is actually true about the used games industry. With the kicker that the people lost to the used games pawnbrokers are actually paying customers, which is something you can't say about the pirates.

I buy mostly used games for my kids. Occassionally, I'll pop for a new title. I have also spent my money on two game systems, accessories and controllers. When things break, I spent money on replacements. Take away the used games, and I spend nothing. It is simply not worth the cost of the console and accessories to play the very few games for which I would be willing to spend $60.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[adamofgreyskull]

And you can't give a digital download as a gift

Are you talking specifically about the XBOX 360? I'll plead ignorance of digital distribution on consoles but my wife bought me RAGE & F.3.A.R. and my brother-in-law bought me Star Wars: Force Unleashed 2 via Steam for my last birthday. I gifted the latest humble indie bundle to a friend as well as a copy of Orcs Must Die with all the DLC for Christmas. If you're saying that you need/want to wrap and give a physical object, then well...*shrug*. I know you can get gift-cards for Wii & xbox360 credits but I guess if you want to give an actual physical gift then you probably won't want to give a gift-card...

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[TaliesinWI]

Pre-iTunes: CDs for $20-$30 for a dozen songs. That you would still need to rip

Where the hell did you buy your CDs? Most of the music on iTunes is the kind that tends to be sold at discounts at places like Wal Mart or Best Buy, so it's more like $12-15 for a CD. Even when somewhere like Barnes & Noble sells it at full price it's $18 or so.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[KhabaLox]

(after all, I do not copy a lot of physical objects).

My wife and I made two little copies of me.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Pentium100]

New games shouldn't have to compete with used games a week after the game is released.

Why not? If a game is so short lived that it gets sold as used a week after release then it should compete with the new games.

If you want your game to not be sold as used a week after release then make a game that will still be interesting/fun/etc a week after I buy it. I see the used games market as rental - it probably is harder to rent a game (like a movie) because you might want to play it for longer than a day, so you buy it and then sell it as used for less.

Movies are also consumed - I buy it, I watch it and I'm done with it for some time (or I may not want to watch it again ever). So, instead of buying, I can rent the movie. If I want to watch it a few years later, I can rent it again. Or if I want to have it or watch more times, I can buy it and keep it.

I also think that if people sold new cars after a few weeks and bought new ones, the car industry would be really happy. For one, the people who would sell a car after a few weeks will buy a new one from the dealership (not a car that is a few weeks old). So, the total number of cars would increase as the prices for older used cars drop. It would also displace old cars (after all, how many cars does one person need?), which means that the authorized mechanics would not need to support as many old cars as they do now.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[mjwx]

It's true for used cars, why wouldn't it be true for games?

Because cars cost lots more than games.

The principal is the same, only the scale differs.

If we weren't allowed to sell cars second hand, would there be a significant rise in new car sales or just less cars on the road?

In actual fact, I think we'd just see a rise in illegally sold cars.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Nugoo]

The used games stores are bad for the industry.

By that logic, so is not buying games. Every $60 you don't spend on games is a lost sale! The frugal are destroying America! We need legal tools to force people to spend all their money on video games!

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[EdIII]

First off, Microsoft can go fuck themselves. I have not bought a PS3, and my XBOX360 came second-hand to me and is now hacked.

Lately, I won't even purchase a device if I have to spend more than a super trivial amount of effort to load a custom firmware on it to let me do what I want with my own hardware. That was pretty much why I fell in love with Microsoft smart phones about 10 years ago. I could go on XDA-Developers and get the tools to cook my own firmware with my basic programs installed already.

Secondly, and you have really really missed the point here, is that... IT IS TOTALLY IRRELEVANT IF IT IS BAD FOR THE INDUSTRY .

Forgive me for my passions, but fuck them. They are not entitled to profit under all situations and the First Sale Doctrine is sacrosanct.

Seriously. Fuck them. This was the course of events:

1) Somebody purchased the copyrighted work directly from the publisher.
2) At the point of sale, the publisher was compensated.
3) Physical medium was transferred along with the legal entitlements granted by copyright when the copyrighted work was given away freely, or sold for 1/100th of a percent of its original value.
4) The original publisher is not relevant to the second transaction because they were already compensated.

That's it.

The "industry" can bitch, whine, and moan like little three year old children about how they are not getting a slice of every used sale. What they cannot do, is make any kind of argument, with a correct legal, ethical, or moral foundation, that used sales is wrong.

They cannot stop us from used game sales. Period.

Coming into my home, living inside the XBOX 720 firmware, and having the unmitigated gall to tell me that I cannot play a second-hand game (in some cases given away freely by a friend) on a console I rightly purchased.

I'm sorry, but your post is infuriating. Their bottom line takes a back seat to ethics every single time.

P.S - There is PLENTY of PRECEDENCE. First Sale Doctrine has been argued to death and the Auto Industry got their asses handed to them by trying to destroy the after market industry in favor of keeping only their brand of parts in a car. There should be no difference with hardware and software, logically or ethically.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[SeaFox]

Yeah. Teenagers should stop buying video games and instead save up for a car.

When was the last time you heard of someone getting laid with their new video game, anyway?

Every new generation

[FrYGuY101]

"Hey the PS2 is going to prevent you from playing used games!"

Oops, no, you can just fine...

"Hey, the PS3 is going to prevent you from playing used games!"

Nope, wrong again...

"Hey, the next Xbox is going to prevent you from playing used games!"

At this point, I'm convinced it's just a way for the hardware people to wrangle a little bit extra developer support before launch, where inevitably they aren't stupid enough to do something that would alienate their core market...

Re:Bull

[Hatta]

Yes, this is complete speculation at this point. Forgive me if I give no credence to unnamed sources from kotaku.

Any game company would be stupid to do this. Lots of people finance their next AAA game by selling their previous AAA game. Prevent that, and you'll see fewer sales.

Re:What about Sony et al?

[rtfa-troll]

Why is the headline of this article focussed on Microsoft and the Xbox 720? Surely this is pure conjecture and can just as easily be applied to *any* PC or console game? I haven't RTFA as it'll be a load of made-up crap by the author.

Yes; it does seem that reading is a skill beyond many of the people stepping up to defend Microsoft from this accusation. From the fine article:

“I’ve heard from one reliable industry source that Microsoft intends to incorporate some sort of anti-used game system as part of their so-called Xbox 720,” Kotaku’s Steven Totilo wrote on Wednesday morning.

not too good for archiving

[Trepidity]

After some years of neglect, since the late 1990s some libraries, universities, and other cultural organizations have realized that videogames are an important cultural artifact, so are worth preserving just like films and other bits of culture are. There are now things like this at Stanford, and quite a few others. These are usually put together by buying used arcade cabinets, cartridges, CDs, etc., from anything from flea markets to eBay (in addition to donations from individuals and collectors).

Videogame makers seem to be doing whatever they possibly can to make this as difficult as possible, especially for organizations like libraries that need to follow the law. It seems like if videogames are actually documented/preserved as interesting cultural artifacts, it's going to be by less-official organizations that crack them.

Kill Used Games? Say Hello to Piracy

[decipher_saint]

If the secondary market becomes impossible, piracy will spring up to take its place, if anything else to increase availability of hard to find titles.

Re:Kill Used Games? Say Hello to Piracy

[The MAZZTer]

I believe at least one publisher has stated used games are a BIGGER problem for them than piracy. They receive no money for either one, but used games are legal and you can just walk into a store and buy one so it's more accessible for more people. It would not surprise me if devs are trying to kill them, though obviously they have to be careful or else lawsuits will likely be thrown their way (perhaps legitimately so, I should be able to resell my own property that I don't use anymore).

Re:Kill Used Games? Say Hello to Piracy

[GreyWolf3000]

First they realize that digital bytes can, by their nature, be copied trivially (unlike physical mediums). So they employ unusable DRM and ridiculous laws like the DMCA just to make their digital media behave like physical media.

Now they've got such a hard on for DRM and their ability to lobby that they want physical media to behave more like digital media. It's like they're twisting the knife.

no used games is less new games sold

[alen]

2010 bought x-box
bought Black Ops
played it, sold it and bought GoW new double pack
played it sold it and bought new copies of ME1 and ME2

if i have to pay $60 for games, and no resale then i'll buy a few games like ME or Dragon Age where you can replay with different characters to get some value

or just keep playing x-box 360 games. lots of GOTY and other super editions with DLC and add ones out there for CHEAP.

In related news

[Lectoid]

In related news, Gamers might reject the Xbox 720

Re:In related news

[scot4875]

And there will likely be real-world technical reasons to kill live on XBox 360 games.

--Jeremy

Steam ain't any better

[Shivetya]

they are just like the Apple App store... the prices are lower but you are forever stuck with the purchase, you cannot sell it.

Heck I can't even sell the apps I bought with my iPad should I choose to never have an Apple product again, the apps don't go with with iPad. When I sold my iMac recently I had to revert it to Snow Leopard because when I asked Apple, Lion belonged to my account, not that machine I bought it for (the new machine came with Lion)

So how low must the prices be before its acceptable to give up the option of resale?

Re:Steam ain't any better

[Bucky24]

"only games that have been bought as a gift, and thus have never been played, can be traded."
From https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=6748-ETSG-5417#howtotrade

Re:Steam ain't any better

[grumbel]

To quote from the page you linked:

Does Steam Trading mean I can sell my used games?

No, only games that have been bought as a gift, and thus have never been played, can be traded. Once the Steam Gift is opened and added to your game library, you won’t be able to trade it again.

Re:Bought fake Insluin, hope someone has some info

[Anonymous Coward]

Well last night I went to refil my insulin pump, and woke up nearly dead today. It was just water, or saline, or who knows.

It was probably dihydrogen monoxide. That stuff is found in cancer cells, and is the major component of acid rain.

This idea they have is worthless

[Howitzer86]

So in the future, lets say... 18 years from now, you won't be able to legally play that game that came out in 2013 because there are no more keys left and the servers are down. You might still have the console, and the disk, and perhaps you paid money for it, but with that game, with that anti-used-game protection, it's useless. And of course, going around the copy protection would be the only way to play it again, which is illegal.

Where is in modern times, you can play an 18 year old game without breaking any laws. Buy a Sega Genesis or a Saturn, buy the game, and so long as it isn't scratched up you can have a nostalgiagasm.

It stinks, won't stop anybody, and make criminals out of everybody, eventually. This idea is worthless.

Re:This idea they have is worthless

[Tsingi]

It stinks, won't stop anybody, and make criminals out of everybody, eventually. This idea is worthless.

We already have a situation where everyone is a criminal. The result of that is people have less respect for the law. And rightly so, if it is illegal for people to do the things that people do every day, then the law no longer serves society.
We know this to be true. The law serves those who own and control the government. The law serves 'artificial' persons. Real persons, can rot in jail.

Re:This idea they have is worthless

[St.Creed]

No. I think they just don't give a rat's ass about it. It's a side effect that doesn't matter to them.

Re:This idea they have is worthless

[Darinbob]

The idea has been around for awhile. This is the one and only goal of DRM for games. It is not there to prevent piracy, it is there to stop you selling your used games or even giving them away to friends or family. This has even been stated by some game producers. Everyone knows pirates will just get cracks to get the game anyway instead the legal owners of the games are prevented from using their legal rights to do what they want with the game.

This is the Steam model. Steam has a horde of dutiful fans who back them up; it's convenient for those who have super fast internet so they will defend the entire model of Steam just to keep that convenience. Some have even defended the DRM as only hurting places like GameStop or other sleazy resellers. But the owner's rights are being restricted and that should never be accepted just because of convenience. There are even worse places than Steam too with much more restrictive DRM (the Steam fans sometimes defend them as "it could be worse").

So this move is just taking the PC model and moving it to consoles. Trouble is no one is fighting against it. If book publishers had the technology to this 50 years ago so that no books would ever be in libraries or you could not donate your dog-eared classics to the local schools, the public would have been up in arms. But today the game players just roll over and take it.

Re:This idea they have is worthless

[Kjella]

This is the Steam model. Steam has a horde of dutiful fans who back them up; it's convenient for those who have super fast internet so they will defend the entire model of Steam just to keep that convenience. Some have even defended the DRM as only hurting places like GameStop or other sleazy resellers. But the owner's rights are being restricted and that should never be accepted just because of convenience. There are even worse places than Steam too with much more restrictive DRM (the Steam fans sometimes defend them as "it could be worse").

With all the due respect, think of Steam like WoW without the monthly fees. If WoW were to shut down tomorrow it's not an argument that OMG you've spent 10000 hours building a character and money on games and expansions and fees and DLCs and buying shit on eBay. Oh there would be massive outrage but there's nothing legally binding them to provide service except prepaid game time and even there they could issue a refund for the future days you lost and nothing else. You don't have any recourse if they change the game in ways you don't like either. People should think of Steam the same way, but just because they do doesn't mean they don't want it. Millions of people play WoW after all. A lot of people will be happy if they just feel they got their entertainment value out of it as long as they feel confident that Steam will remain operational for as long as they need to get that entertainment value. Pay today, get your money's worth over the next 6 months and if Steam is there in 10 years or not? Not important.

Re:What about Sony et al?

[bonch]

Why is the headline of this article focussed on Microsoft and the Xbox 720?

Because the article is about Microsoft and the Xbox 720. Because the source of the article is about Microsoft and the Xbox 720.

I haven't RTFA as it'll be a load of made-up crap by the author.

You'd be amazed at what you can learn when you RTFA instead of posting a knee-jerk reaction.

Re:What about Sony et al?

[tripleevenfall]

You're beyond the pale of /. orthodoxy.

Microsoft is the enduring force for truth, justice, and the American way - in the console market. Sony is the devilish corporatist plutocrat outfit in this sector that we love to hate. If you want free mod-ups, you have to bash Sony in game threads, MSFT in PC threads :)

and I Might Reject the Xbox 720

[kni52]

Actually i will if this is the way it will behave. The same goes for any console that does this kind of thing. I buy most of my games used, and keep my gaming systems for as long as they last. I stay away from any game that links to online services or verification in order to function properly. If i want a time-limited gaming experience, I'll visit one of the few arcades that are left (which I do whenever I'm near one).

Re:and I Might Reject the Xbox 720

[gameboyhippo]

That is until Madden's GENERIC FPS 2015 comes out! It'll be awesome. I hear this will be the first all DLC game! Plus you'll be entertained with ADVERTISING tailored to you! Or you could bypass all of that crap and just go with Nintendo, but we all know that Nintendoz iz 4 teh kiddiez!

Not 100% the best way to go

[Anonymous Coward]

Limiting features based on not having a key is a better idea.

Such as limiting a certain number of weapons to be held, or certain number of AI bots in a game, or even limiting the game up to a certain point, removing side-quests, etc.
It would give more reason for people to want to buy the game first, or get a new key.

Getting rid of brick and mortar stores is a terrible thing for them and the industry, as is going entirely digital.
A lot of companies make a large chunk of money on limited editions and the like, such as coming with original artwork (or rather, scanned original artwork), some models, whatever.
Not only that, getting rid of them would be getting rid of a large chunk of your market because NO sane person is going to sit and download their double-digit gigabyte games.
What with bandwidth caps and slow speeds, and of course the triple digit numbers of people ALL DOING IT AT ONCE, yeah, come back in a couple decades when the backbones of most countries aren't made out of crap.
Better idea, CDN in each country. Each store signs up for a licence to have a hub installed in their store. This then downloads the games to them on release. People can come in with some memory device (SSD, HDD, flash, whatever), pop the game on, it gets copied, take it home, copy to console, done.
If they have no device, they rent a device from the store to take it home. (this could be an avenue for the stores to make a bit of money for those who have no memory storage)
You could also allow sync to be done via this method. They hop on over to the store, they upload their achievements and the like to the hub. It all gets uploaded at off-peak times at once.
Obviously there is a lot to workout with such a system, but it is better than telling your fans with no internet to beat it.
You now have the best of both worlds, people who can internet and people who don't have decent internet or none at all.

The fact that Steam, PSN, XBL all suffer bad times even with upper-average traffic, what makes you think it'd hold up against everyone ever on those services using it all at once?
They'd literally DDoS the poor servers, which I can't count how many times has happened when, say, a new huge game has came out on Steam. Switching locations like a madman to find something that will at least work, even if slow as hell.
They'd have to have an insane number of load-balancing at the front of the network to prevent it dying so hard.

note: I always buy brand new wherever I can.

not the answer but the problem is still there

[MattDaye]

when at least half of your target audience will wait a few weeks/months to buy your game used from a store like Gamestop ruining your companies projected sales/income and it makes it difficult for you to get funding for games, its a problem. why bother making anything other than a game hoping to cash in on the COD market for sure income, then to make a niche new original game that wont have as many sales and more than half are still lost to store resellers. that said, when games have no replay value and after your 10-20 hours of gameplay its just a 50-70 dollar paper weight on your shelf you wonder why you bothered to buy it.

What about game rentals?

[lazycam]

I know it's a small part of their business, but how will this decision affect a rental company like RedBox. The other day I noticed they rented out titles like Skyrim and Call of Duty. Moreover, what about companies like Gamefly, whose entire business model is based on the ability to share titles? Along with regular customers, I imagine these companies will not go down without a fight.

Killing Used Games Kill Sales of New Games

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

KIlling the used game market is going to backfire because the sale of used games subsidizes the purchase of new games. A lot of people make the calculation that they can buy a ~$50 game, play it until they are tired of it and then sell it for ~$20 - making the effective price only $30.

If the publishers make it impossible to resell that game, that amounts to nearly a doubling of the price for a new game and thus a lot less people will be able to afford it. These game publishers should be care what they wish for.

Where there is a will. There is a way!

[Lashat]

Somewhat along the same lines of an earlier post claiming that piracy will solve this issue.

I agree that if someone wants to play the game in 18 years. They will play the game. Emulators rule. I love that MAME exists and give me strolls down memory lane without sucking quarters out of my pocket in that stuffy, over-heated, converted room behind the Mini-Golf rental shack.
http://mamedev.org/legal.html

Read their "Legal" section if you think that "piracy" is the only solution.

Re:What about Sony et al?

[tepples]

Microsoft is the enduring force for truth, justice, and the American way - in the console market. Sony is the devilish corporatist plutocrat outfit in this sector that we love to hate.

Might this difference in reputation have something to do with the presence of Xbox Live Indie Games vs. the removal of an advertised feature and lawsuits against those who would restore it?

Re:Bull

[click2005]

A) There is no way anyone has information on this system that would be negative toward it's image.

Yes because underhanded dirty tricks to increase greed for corporations never get leaked. (ACTA)

B) People won't even bother to buy the new console and stick with the 360

Until they start to upgrade their stuff to only support the new console and stop support for the 360. (DX10,XP)

C) What if you change systems, buy a second new system, or these systems fail as often as the 360 (hope not)

Thomas in Bangalore will help you move your account. This is a 360? I'm sorry the new online system isnt supported by the 360.

How heavily are PC games discounted?

[tepples]

heavily discounted digital download titles on the PC, which is something I've yet to see matched on the console side.

Are PC games typically discounted such that someone can buy four copies of the PC game for the price of one copy of a console game? Because that's what it would take to make up for the difference in the multiplayer paradigm between the two markets.

Re:What about Sony et al?

[cpu6502]

Can't I just simplify my life and bash both in both genres?

If it's true I can't buy games, play them, and then sell them as "like new" used condition (thus recouping my money), I might as well just stop playing modern consoles. I'll become a classic gamer (Ataris, Commodores, Segas, NESes, PS2s.)

I hate RIAA. I hate MPAA. I hate limitations upon my freedom.

this is what you get with console vendor lock-in

[Dan667]

why people continue to complain when they know that the console maker is going to do stuff like this makes no sense. You are accepting you don't even own your console when you buy it.

Incorporate

[PPH]

Create a corporation*, purchase the XBox and games through the corporation. When you want to sell, you transfer the equity in the corporation to the new owner. The h/w and s/w never change hands.

Watch Microsoft fight a couple of hundred years of corporate law. Sit back. Laugh.

*Yeah, I know. This will be prohibitively expensive for something like a couple of games.

Arcade suicide batteries

[tepples]

You appear to have never heard of a suicide battery. As I understand it, it's fairly common for some kinds of arcade games to lose their programming after several years because essential decryption keys are stored in battery-backed SRAM.

Same for CDs

[Anonymous Coward]

I haven't bought a new CD (music album) in about 10 years. In that time, however, I have bought over 100 used CDs, averaging about $5 each, from online stores like secondspin.com. I simply unpack them, record each album to my FLAC archive, and put the disc/inserts away for storage. I keep a list of CDs I might want to buy and about twice a year I order a new batch of 10-15 albums. This has proven to be a great way of acquiring new music, and the best part is that I get the actual physical albums. I don't even care if they have a few scratches (most don't), as long as they record perfectly.

In conclusion, I feel damn good about sticking it to a corrupt industry backed by a corrupt government.

Next, ban old games

[residieu]

Next up. Madden 2014 will stop working when Madden 2015 is released. People who keep playing old games are picking the pockets of the developers. They're still playing old games when they could be buying the new versions and playing those.

Re:Next, ban old games

[MozeeToby]

Wasn't there talk a while back about Madden moving over to a subscription model? Which would be exactly what you describe.

Used game sales = new game sales

[billcopc]

How can these corporate dunces not understand that the used game market is what fuels new game sales ?

On the few occasions where I've sold a game, in my case it's because I didn't like it, and wanted to free up those funds to buy something else. My most recent example was last year's Splinter Cell game (which I dubbed "Gears of Splinter Cell"). I spent $60 on it, didn't like it, sold it to someone else for $45 or so. Then I turned around and spent another $70 on Black Ops. So far, the game industry has made $130.

If I were unable to sell the game, due to arbitrary restrictions enforced by the platform, the other guy would not have gotten his hands on my unloved Splinter Cell, and I would have had $45 less to spend on my next game. Restricting that private sale then directly results in one less retail sale.

Now, I only rarely sell games. I'm more of a collector, and I like to revisit old games every few years. I can afford it, so I'm not the typical used-game-market kind of guy. A lot of my friends are, though, and they rarely have more than 4-5 games in their possession at any given time. They beat one, sell/trade it, get a new one. That's the key factor: they keep buying new ones with the money from used sales!

The people who are buying used games ? They're not even on the radar. $70 for a video game is fucking expensive, considering most modern titles are hastily-polished turds. About half gamer guys I know in the 25-35 age range are broke asses, working retail jobs and having less than $200 left after rent and necessities. The used market is the only way they can afford any games, so they may not contribute directly to the game industry's bottom line, but it keeps them addicted. How often have I heard these guys go "Man when I get a 2nd job I am so buying a PS3"... but kill off the used game market and these folks will find other hobbies, and you lose them as a customer for life!

Re:Death of xbox 720 inevitable

[Anonymous Coward]

Scores, you say? Well, shit, the 720 is surely doomed if scores of people won't buy it! That's, like, a hundred people!

aerogel???

[ganjadude]

aerogel?? you were watching modern marvels this morning werent you?

I've already had my last-straw moment..

[oh-dark-thirty]

..when I purchased NHL 11 used for my 360, and didn't realize until I started playing that it required a $10 online pass for multiplayer. Nope, not gonna do it, and I would urge anyone with an ounce of sense to reject that model as well. EA doesn't even maintain servers for most of their current-gen games, they use P2P. The only thing they physically host are stats and whatnot, so it costs them very little to maintain; the bandwidth and storage requirements are minimized to a huge degree.

MS: still thoroughly evil

[Teckla]

Microsoft is still impressively thoroughly evil. This is just more of the same.

You can't even stream Netflix with your Xbox 360 without subscribing to Xbox Live.

There is no good reason for this, except Microsoft being greedy, evil bastards.

Replacement Consoles

[Agent0013]

I think they are going to hurt their sales of consoles also. If an out-of-warantee Xbox 720 breaks, some people will just buy a new one. If all of your old games won't work on it, then there is no point. Perhaps they will get theirs fixed instead. But if it is beyond repair, I think many people would write off that console and not buy another or any other games for it, and would probably steer clear of the next generation of that console also. You can only screw people over soo far before they get wise to it.

Re:Replacement Consoles

[Ash Vince]

I think they are going to hurt their sales of consoles also. If an out-of-warantee Xbox 720 breaks, some people will just buy a new one. If all of your old games won't work on it, then there is no point. Perhaps they will get theirs fixed instead. But if it is beyond repair, I think many people would write off that console and not buy another or any other games for it, and would probably steer clear of the next generation of that console also. You can only screw people over soo far before they get wise to it.

This is a trivially easy thing to solve. The games will be bound to a users account, not the console. Even on the 360 you have to sign in to play and have your progress recorded so most users have xbox live accounts already.

If my xbox died tomorrow I would buy a new one then just set the new one up to access my old account.

Should be illegal !!

[fish_in_the_c]

Attempting to keep control of a product you sell and prevent it's resale is bad for the economy and should be illegal, as it destroys whole ecosystems of commerce.

I'm sure cloth retailers would love to put used cloths stores out of business.
Do you think it would work if they started including a license with their cloth that required the item to be returned to them and not resold? I mean , just because you pay for it , is no excuse to think you own it or have the right to modify it , right?

How about care manufactures, do you think people would put up with having to sign a license agreement for that required you to always have your car serviced at the dealership and return it to the dealer rather then discard it so as to protect 'their engineering' .
Not that they haven't tired, there is all kinds of poor engineering that has cost car companies lots of rep and lots of money , in attempts to prevent people from fixing things themselves. Now with all the computers and key fobs etc they are starting to finally have some success. That should also be illegal.

This is a serious assault on the consumer

[erroneus]

Games are expensive. Many people feel they can buy games because they will have some re-sale value after the fact. But with being stripped of any resale value, I have to wonder if this will result in more "careful consumerism." But in the end, we are seeing consumers stripped of their rights when they buy things. (Yes, I know they are technically 'redefining' what consumers are buying and what their rights are, but the net effect is the same.)

This kind of abuse simply needs to be outlawed. If someone buys a game in physical form, there should be no way to restrict their use of it. By making clever software, they are doing essentially what the DMCA says consumers can't do. They are circumventing copyright by inhibiting access to legal material copies which are owned by individuals.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:Bought fake Insluin, hope someone has some info

[Noren]

Perhaps if you'd taken a regular, non-fucking chemistry class you would have learned of hydrogen peroxide- two hydrogen and two oxygen will bond all right. The mono part is unnecessary for reasons other than the one you stated.

That being said, it's too bad they didn't offer a fucking chemistry class when I went to school, that sounds like an interesting topic.

Is the real issue with gamers, or with stores?

[Liam Pomfret]

Realistically, blocking the ability of gamers to sell their used games isn't likely to be that much of a concern. PC gamers have already shown they're willing to accept that when coupled with reasonably sensible pricing schemes (eg. Practically any PC game download service, such as Steam).

The real problem for a company trying to implement something like this is going to be with the stores. Historically, stores such as Gamestop have only minimal margins on the sales of actual gaming consoles. (The Wii is a rare and notable exception there, and the Wii U is unlikely to be different on that score.) It's the same kind of razor & blades business model that Microsoft and Sony use selling them the consoles in the first place (though not as extreme, since Microsoft and Sony usually lose money on each console sold.) This is why many stores try to up-sell you to a bundle when you're buying a console, since they make so much more on the margin of those games (even the ones that they seemingly discount dramatically for the purpose of the bundle).

If you eliminate the possibility of these stores selling used games on a console, then you're leaving them only with new games (average margins) and consoles (minimal margins). What do you think will be the result of that? Most likely, they'll shift shelf space to something with better margins, if not eliminate the product line from their stores entirely. After all, when a games store sells you a console, they're hoping to continue to make money from you from game sales in the future. If you can't buy used games from them, then your value as a customer to them has just decreased dramatically.

No used games OK if you bring the price down

[Tuan121]

If all new games were $30-40 and no used game market they would make WAY more money than now.

Re:Symmetric vs. asymmetric information

[SuricouRaven]

Me and some friends play ut2k4 often - and usually on the same maps. One of them has speakers. I've gotten good enough that I can tell were he is by the ambient sound effects.