Xbox 720 Might Reject Used Games

silentbrad writes "Online passes are a recent staple in staving off used sales. Limiting what used buyers can access is a protective measure for publishers, much to the chagrin of parts of the gaming community. Chris Kohler of Wired argues that the death of used games is inevitable, and passes are the first step toward something exactly like a native anti-used game something integrated into consoles. He notes, of course, that digital is the future of buying games, but in the meantime we may be looking at 'an interim period in which the disc as a delivery method is still around but ... becomes more like a PC game, which are sold with one-time-use keys that grant one owner a license to play the game on his machine.' Also at Kotaku, the source for the Wired article (which is the source for the IGN article)."

Comments

The first Slashdot troll post investigation

[Anonymous Coward]

The last few months I have been doing some research into the trolling phenomenon on slashdot.org. In order to do this as thoroughly as possible, I have written both normal and troll posts, 1st posts, etc., both logged in and anonymously, and I have found these rather shocking results:

* More moderator points are being used to mod posts down than up. Furthermore, when modding a post up, every moderator seems to follow previous moderators in their choices, even when it's not a particularly interesting or clever post. There are a LOT more +5 posts than +3 or +4.

* Logged in people are modded down faster than anonymous cowards. Presumably these Nazi Moderators think it's more important to burn a user's existing karma, to silence that individual for the future, than to use the moderation system for what it's meant for : identifying "good" and "bad" posts (Notice how nearly all oppressive governments in the past and present do the same thing : marking individuals as bad and untrustworthy because they have conflicting opinions, instead of engaging in a public discussion about these opinions)

* Once you have a karma of -4 or -5, your posts have a score of -1 by default. When this is the case, no-one bothers to mod you down anymore. This means a logged in user can keep on trolling as much as he (or she) likes, without risking a ban to post on slashdot. When trolling as an anonymous user, every post starts at score 0, and you will be modded down to -1 ON EVERY POST. When you are modded down a certain number of times in 24 hour, you cannot post anymore from your current IP for a day or so. So, for successful trolling, ALWAYS log in.

* A lot of the modded down posts are actually quite clever, funny, etc., and they are only modded down because they are offtopic. Now, on a news site like slashdot, where the number of different topics of discussion can be counted on 1 hand, I must say I quite like the distraction these posts offer. But no, when the topic is yet another minor version change of the Linux kernel, they only expect ooohs and aaahs about this great feat of engineering. Look at the moderation done in this thread to see what I mean.

* Digging deep into the history of slashdot, I found this poll, which clearly indicates the vast majority does NOT want the moderation we have here today. 'nuff said.

Feel free to use this information to your advantage. I thank you for your time.

Anonymous cowards are... well, cowards.

Re:The first Slashdot troll post investigation

[Anonymous Coward]

tl;dr;fuck off

Re:The first Slashdot troll post investigation

[Culture20]

* More moderator points are being used to mod posts down than up.

/. employees have an infinite number of mod points that they can used to mod down obvious trolls or spam (usually anon cowards).

Furthermore, when modding a post up, every moderator seems to follow previous moderators in their choices, even when it's not a particularly interesting or clever post [slashdot.org]. There are a LOT more +5 posts than +3 or +4.
* Logged in people are modded down faster than anonymous cowards.

Both of these points follow from ordinary moderators not reading below the threshold of 2. Nothing to see here. Move along.

Re:The first Slashdot troll post investigation

[Anonymous Coward]

> There are a LOT more +5 posts than +3 or +4.

Because the default view only shows the top rated posts, duh. And lol if you think slashdot users change their defaults because some obscure FAQ tells them they should.

Most commenters here don't seem to realize they are only talking to themselves. The vast majority of /. readers never see their posts.

Re:The first Slashdot troll post investigation

[SomePgmr]

These prepared garbage posts about the moderation are hitting most of the articles right away.

I don't know what's going on, but it's getting annoying.

Re:The first Slashdot troll post investigation

[ganjadude]

personally, I always read at 0 or -1 points or not. Also I try and use my mod points on posts that have not been modded however should be, or stuff modded down i mod up if it should be. I rarely bother modding down as like you said most people read at a 2 anyway so why bother? I dont know if I am in the minority in the way I choose to mod, but thats how I like to do it.

Re:The first Slashdot troll post investigation

[suutar]

I figured the prevalance of +5 over +3 was just that if it's good, more than 4 people are going to like it enough to mod. To get only a +3, you have to walk a very fine line between being good enough for 5 people to like and being bad enough to get downmodded.

Re:The first Slashdot troll post investigation

[PopeRatzo]

The last few months I have been doing some research into the trolling phenomenon

You piece of shit, do you really think people can't tell that you're just trying to bury this story about some fucked-up Microsoft behavior by hijacking the comments section with your "first post" thread?

The whole point of your effort was to hide any meaningful discussion of Microsoft's plans underneath a phony story, complete with links to nothing meaningful.

You're not going to win, you know. The harder you try, the more obvious you become and the people who care about preserving some semblance of honest discussion on Slashdot will out you, we'll expose the companies you work for, and turn every bit of your had work against you.

New Media Strategies, Reputation "Defender", any corporation whose goal is to shit on good faith discussion of the behavior of your clients, whether they be Microsoft, Apple, Sony, AT&T, whomever, you're not going to be able to operate under the radar much longer. There are people in your companies, your own "associates" who are right now acting against your best interests. The chump change you pay them is not enough to buy their silence. The reason you hired them is because they have some facility with online communities, which in some cases will mean they have some regard for online communities, and as they get other jobs or go back to grad school or decide being an honest barista is better than being a corporate cunt, and they're going to undermine you as they walk out the door.

It's already happening. Did you really think you could fuck up the Internet without a bit of push back, New Media Strategies?

Re:The first Slashdot troll post investigation

[Anonymous Coward]

Reputation Management. They couldn't succeed at raising the reputation of their client here so they resort to spamming/trolling all stories in an attempt to game the system.

Re:The first Slashdot troll post investigation

[ILongForDarkness]

Well if most people read with a setting of 2 than if you mod down a post you don't like that is new you'd essentially move it off the majority of peoples screen and banish it :-) So I guess you have more power if you mod down than up because modding down gets rid of it but moding up its still there with the rest of things.

I very rarely mod down it has to be a pretty blatant personal attach or something. I mainly comb through the twos and look for ones that were worthwhile and help them along. Things that are already 3+ will show up for virtually everyone so I don't bother. But giving a slight boost to someones unmodded post helps when people visually filter via the "I have 5 minutes what is good" criteria.

Re:The first Slashdot troll post investigation

[mister_playboy]

The AC's post is actually old copypasta that just happens to sound relevant given the recent going-ons here. I've read that exact post several times before.

Also, it's from a minute after the story went up, whereas the shills always manage to get the same time stamp as the story.

So this is just old-school FP trolling, IMO. :)

Re:The first Slashdot troll post investigation

[ILongForDarkness]

Agreed. It is a step function I think. You get modded up slightly more people will bother to read it. Once they do assuming it is a good post and they have mod points you'll probably get another point. If they don't agree it is good you'll get bounced back to 2. So 3 and 4's are just paths to getting a 5 afterwards people probably won't bother to mod you because it would be a waste to give a point to something that is already a 5.

Re:The first Slashdot troll post investigation

[Artraze]

Agreed.

Also, there's not incentive to slow moderation at +3 or +4... If you see a post at +4, it's probably going to be better than one at +2, so why _wouldn't_ you mod it to +5? The moderation system is really more of like/dislike setup and has no encouragement for mods to actually say that +4 is fair score and that +5 would be too much.

I've often wondered if it might make sense to increase the costs associated with modding up. Instead of one mod point per mod, instead charge X mod points, where X will be the new score (or current score if modding down). That would mean it would take someone _really_ liking your post to get it to be +5, and having it be free to correct -1 posts. This would also limit abuse from bury-brigades because they would burn through points very quickly tearing down +5 posts.

Re:The first Slashdot troll post investigation

[eln]

The moderation system is really more of like/dislike setup and has no encouragement for mods to actually say that +4 is fair score and that +5 would be too much.

That's what the overrated/underrated mods were intended for, but they've never ever been used for that purpose and probably ought to be removed. To my knowledge, the only reason people ever use them is because they're immune to meta-moderation. Well, that and so they can make posts +5, Troll or -1, Insightful.

Re:The first Slashdot troll post investigation

[PopeRatzo]

Also, it's from a minute after the story went up, whereas the shills always manage to get the same time stamp as the story.

It took him a minute to post because he was managing 11 accounts, posting in 8 different comments sections of 3 different blogs.

That's Cool - I Reject Used Pussy

[Anonymous Coward]

If I'm gunna fuck a bitch, I insist that she be a virgin, or have her vag sewn up like a virgin.

The first time I'm with her, it needs to feel like I'm entering a tight virgin, even if it doesn't feel that way when I'm done with her.

Re:That's Cool - I Reject Used Pussy

[Anonymous Coward]

The last bitch I was with had no less than a disk, a black flap, and a scorpion shoved up there.

You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

Because you should turn around twice and walk away.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

goddamnit if you started facing it you'd just turn around twice and walk into it.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

You should back away. It is bad mojo to turn your back to it.

Fine, I feel bad for writing that. How come all of the gaming console companies have to be total ass badgers? I just want to have a flight simulator and give my money to a company not run by jackasses.*rant off*

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[tripleevenfall]

Personally, the online keys were the last straw for me.

The fact that used games were available at half price was the reason I was playing in the first place. I trade the first 6-12 months of a game's release for the discount. I wouldn't pay $60 to cram into Modern Warfare on release day with everyone else anyway.

This is the miscalculation the game companies are making - they won't be able to force us into playing $60 and up for games we'd previously bought used for $30, we just won't play the games at all.

They are also missing the point that the presence of a used market drives sales, because you aren't so skittish about blowing $60 on a game if you know you can recoup some of that later.

This is a bad idea. I know that suits and PHB's think "Well, they can't get used games anymore - they'll buy the full priced ones instead!" but they've got another thing coming.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

If you want a flight sim and give money to a company not ran by jackasses, try DCS - A-10C.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

Game companies don't care that you won't pay $30 for the used game anymore. Remember, THEY don't get that $30. They get NONE of it. To them, this is perfectly fine.

I'm not saying that they should be doing this, I'm just saying they did think it through.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[St.Creed]

You're very right. The automotive industry does its best to maintain the used car market precisely because of this reason: if buyers of new cars don't have an outlet for their cars, they stop buying new cars every 2-3 years but instead drop down to buying one every 10 (or even more) years. Not good.

I'm guessing that any drop in sales will be blamed on piracy though, instead of the retarded policies of the gaming industry.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Grishnakh]

That's just the way big corporations are. It's their nature. Asking them to change is like asking a tiger to not eat a tasty sheep standing next to it.

That said, if you just want a flight simulator and don't want to give your money to jackasses, have you looked into FlightGear?

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Grishnakh]

What you're missing is that, without a used market for buyers of new games to recoup some of the cost of their unwanted games with, they simply won't buy as many new games.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[AngryDeuce]

Not to mention the other "used market" on The Pirate Bay.

Well, unless they're going to create the first unhackable/unmoddable console in history. In that case, consider the gauntlet thrown down, Microsoft...

You want to sell more new copies of a game? Have a non-insane pricing plan that actually decreases the cost of new games progressively as time goes on. Yes, I know they have the "Greatest Hits" line, but honestly most games they ever add to that are the ones that sold so many copies new that Gamestop won't even buy them due to having a dozen copies already they can't get rid of at $10 a piece.

If these guys started giving the consumer incentive, rather than treating them as adversaries so often by locking them out of their own hardware/software, they would probably sell a lot more, but I doubt they'll ever try, so we'll never know...

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[bondsbw]

It's not just about the cost. Today's games also focus on building up a community. Even games like Halo have a huge following of people who play just to have fun with their friends, and who would never play if not for that social interaction. (I am one of them.)

If Joe Blow can't buy a reduced-cost copy of Halo, he won't be part of the growth of such a community. And if I can't sell my copy, I might not be willing to try it out to begin with.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[tripleevenfall]

Without a used market they won't sell me a new console, controllers, etc.; they'll lose revenue on the few games I would actually buy new; they'd lose any money I might spend on digital purchases as well.

There's also the risk I would be driven to a competitor's product, or lose interest in gaming altogether, which costs them down the road.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

My problem with used games is stores like gamestop, that push used and trade in programs. A lot of the time if Gamestop has a used game in stock for some strange reason they do not have any new copies. They sell new games at a premium price over big box retailers, buy those same games 2-6 weeks later and resale them at a 5-20% discount. When the game is no longer a hot title, they dump all their stock and only have the premium priced "new" title available. But that new title is somehow in a open box that was "only used" for display.

God damn it, if the box is opened, it isn't new!

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Gr33nJ3ll0]

There's a difference in the markets. Cars are a tool, and essentially one tool is like any other. So it's to their benefit to provide you with a place to dispose of your unwanted (but still useful) car. Games are very different (or there would be lawsuits :) ), you can use multiple games at the same time, and you don't need one to function in society. A better analogy would be the car makers maintaining the used motorcycle, and scooter markets.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

You are dismissing the fact that ideally this would allow them to drop the price on new games. Ideally. Will they do that? Yes, but it is doubtful by much (see iTunes, horrendously expensive for non-physical media).

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[rogueippacket]

Further to the point, they are going to wipe out brick-and-mortar distribution stores overnight - used games and warranties are the only things keeping those stores afloat today. These publishers better be ready for digital-only distribution the day they do this, but even then, they will have severely limited accessibility to their product. Weekend browsers, impulse shoppers, kids without credit cards, and parents shopping for their kids will all be impacted, and these are fairly large groups. Some consumers will adapt, but most will just move to platforms which provide greater value (99c iOS Apps, anyone?) for less hassle.
Now, I'm not saying that cutting out the middleman is a bad thing - Steam did this quite well, and to the benefit of everyone through their legendary Steam Sales. But I can't see a market dominated by big players accustomed to $60 price points adapting before their agile competitors snap-up a good chunk of their alleged profit.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[alen]

with DLC for everything these days they know they will get some of it because a lot of people will buy the extra armor and levels and songs. but with $60 per game, that's A LOT less games.

there are some excellent iOS games coming out now for less than $5. might not have the realistic graphics but game play is just as good. i'll just buy the apple tv and play on my ipad or iphone

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

If you watch games on steam, you'll see that blockbuster games start off at full price, but within a year there's normally a 25% or more discount. Classic games like Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas can be had NEW for $15. Quake III is $10. Civilization 3 is $5.

$30 for a used game actually seems high. Who loses out here are consumers who can't make back a little money, but really places like Gamestop that sell used games at a 300% markup. This money instead goes to the game publisher with hopefully some of it back to the developer.

I too have issues with internet registration and DRM. Generally PHB's know a thing or two about how to price products.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

Like St. Creed says below, the used game market helps drive the new game market.

If Person A buys a game for $60 because they know they can sell it to "Used Game Store" for $20 when they get bored with it, then that's $60 in "Game Company Pocket". If Person A wouldn't buy the game for $60 if they couldn't sell it for $20, then that $60 that would have gone to "Game Company Pocket" never gets there.

Person B will by the game for $60 anyway.

Person C will buy the game for $30, putting $10 in "Used Game Store Pockets" and driving Person A to buy more games at $60. Person C may find new publishers/series, and may at some time buy a $60 game.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd not dismiss a unhackable/unmoddable console. Look how long it took to crack the PS3, almost four years. I'm sure the PS720 combined with some technology like WoW's Warden that would actively not just ban from XBL, but actively disable modded firmwares via an e-Fuse type of array ( is going to be highly likely).

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[s73v3r]

That, and the availability of downloadable games. Between my GameFly subscription (which usually only brings me older games anyway) and stuff on XBLA, I don't really buy any new games.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[s73v3r]

I would like to see numbers on how true this is. I don't think a lot of people buy games with the intent of trading it in later.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[mlts]

It might just give impetus for more indies to hit the PC game market where the barrier for entry is basically paying for an Authenticode signing key, or a yearly membership for use of iTunes Connect. Instead of paying $60, one can pay $20 for a game like Torchlight that may not have the latest and greatest eye-popping graphics, but is very playable.

Consoles may be hitting the skids, but with the fact that stores/repos/markets are becoming commonplace, it isn't hard for an indie to get in the ball game and be a link away from having a good game. Possibly another ID with an awesome game demo might even appear.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

Digital-only isn't ready for prime time, especially for people like me living in Canada. First Sony and Microsoft need to lobby the CRTC to prohibit bandwidth metering. If I have to pay a 30 dollar bandwidth overage just to download the latest (overpriced 4 hours of gameplay) title, I'll pass. The day this happens is the day you'll see the golden age of indie games beginning.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

OR PLAY OPEN SOURCE GAMES ONLY. Why do people live as if open source doesn't exist?

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Translation Error]

Well, realistically, that's probably what most people will do--drool over the shiny new system, loudly proclaim they're not going to buy it if it won't play used games, turn their back for a while before drooling over it again a couple of times, and then go ahead and buy it.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[i kan reed]

Yeah, that's stupid. They are both luxury items, especially when new. Or maybe you think the 75% of the world that doesn't own a car isn't getting by at all.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Grishnakh]

It's true for used cars, why wouldn't it be true for games? You think teenagers and 20-somethings have tons of cash to buy games and then throw them away if they don't like them or are done with them?

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think a lot of people buy games with the intent of trading it in later.

That's the wrong way to think about it. Someone may not consider whether they can trade a game in when buying a new game, but when they do trade in a game, it's often to purchase a new game. The sales that will be lost are not the initial ones but the subsequent ones where gamers are applying their trade-in value to lower the cost.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[hairyfeet]

180, you stupid, spaghetti-slurping cretin - *180*! If I did a 720, I'd go completely around and end up back where I started!

Seriously though WTF does this have to do with the 720, or the mii, or the PS4 for that matter? this is just some douche blathering on about what could possibly maybe happen sometime in the future. Well i might grow wings out of my ass and fly south for the winter but that don't mean its gonna happen, especially not with sony looking for any advantage it can get against MSFT. Can you imagine how quickly Sony would jump on that? 'You can't buy used or rent games for the 720 but you can the PS4. Come over to the PS4, its nicer here" and watch the 720 sales take a dump. MSFT may be dumb but it ain't retarded...well not THAT retarded anyway, Win 8 dev preview has made me lower my estimate of the collective IQ at Redmond by a dozen points or so.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[ShakaUVM]

>>Have a non-insane pricing plan that actually decreases the cost of new games progressively as time goes on

Yeah, I looked at buying Oblivion a couple months back for my wife on the Xbox 360. Even though it's not moddable like the PC version, she's more comfortable on the couch.

They're still selling it for $30. o_O

(http://marketplace.xbox.com/en-US/Product/Oblivion/66acd000-77fe-1000-9115-d802425307d1)

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[tripleevenfall]

No, of course they won't. Their incentive is to drive profits upward, not downward.

I'm sure they will want to eliminate physical disks in the future too, because it's an uncontrollable medium. MSFT will want everyone playing digitally downloaded games (which cost the consumer the same as the physical ones), which are really only a license-to-play and can be deleted from your drive or non-supported by XBL at any time.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[tripleevenfall]

Some of us want a more robust gaming experience than TuxSweeper, et al

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

I would like to see numbers on how true this is. I don't think a lot of people buy games with the intent of trading it in later.

What are you dumb? 100% of the existing used games were new at one point. I assume you can do the arithmetic from there.

You want to know what will happen? Console games will be devalued just like PC games currently are, where a massive number of buyers will wait for deeply discounted sales on most of their new title purchases. Since game companies overwhelmingly rely on initial sales numbers to gauge the financial success of a game (and decide whether to can the entire studio or not) this is going to screw with them far more than gamers.

Also, cut and pasting an Amazon.com really long, annoying code into Steam or Origin is a heck of a lot less annoying than typing one in using a XBox 360 or PS3 controller. I don't actually see a lot of people putting up with this.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[MindStalker]

In may work itself out if the publishers aren't stupid (and they are).
For example, on retail shelves, new games and older but still not used games sell for a similar price.
Contrast with sellers such as Steam, where older games go on sale for 75%+ off.
Steam still has $60 games, but if you don't have to have the newest game there are a ton of games you can buy for a reasonable price. If the game is locked to your platform/user account, its virtually the same as a digital delivery, prices will adjust.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[ColdWetDog]

It's true for used cars, why wouldn't it be true for games?

Because cars cost lots more than games.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[hardburlyboogerman]

You're right on that.Hell,I WON"T buy a gaming console after what has been done to the PS3 and now the Xbox.
Note to Sony.Micro$oft and Nintendo->You can keep your junk.I don't have to buy it,MOFOs

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[hardburlyboogerman]

Just turn around,fart real loud and save yer cash

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[TheSpoom]

Well, unless they're going to create the first unhackable/unmoddable console in history. In that case, consider the gauntlet thrown down, Microsoft...

I wouldn't be surprised if the next generation of consoles require the consumer to sign a contract at purchase stating that if they attempt to modify the console in any unauthorized way, it can destroy itself and the buyer will have no recourse.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[rsilvergun]

Tux Racer?

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[amoeba1911]

You will still be able to buy your game for $30 after 6-12 months, the only difference will be that it will be new instead of used. You're not the one getting screwed here, what they will screw here is the guy who bought it new for $60 and was thinking that he could play it and sell it used and recoup some of his money.

You on the other hand, you just want to pay $30 and play the game. They know there's a market for people like you, so they will always release the game after some time for $30. Games on Personal Computers do that already, Portal 2's initial price of $50 is down to $30. In a few months it's going to be $10, to market it to people who want to play it but can't afford to pay $30 and doesn't want to get involved in sharing (piracy).

But wait, there's more! The guy who bought the $60 hoping to sell it for $30 (and use that money towards buying another game) will now be too broke to buy another game. He will play less games or pirate the games. If he plays less games, the game industry suffers because who knows if he will come back. If he pirates the games, the game industry suffers because who knows if he will ever pay for a game again after realizing sharing (piracy) is just fine too.

Of course we can all see this is a very short-sighted scheme to make more money without actually making more stuff. It is incredibly short sighted, and in the end it will do more harm to society than good, but they don't see that far into the future. They care about their immediate gratification.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

It's even worse for them than you predict.

There's a LOT of gamers out there already that buy a game new, then sell it 1-2 weeks later, getting most of their money back. (That's how places like Gamestop end up with a hundred billion copies of each supposedly AAA title so quickly.)

They take that money and use it to finance their next new purchase, repeat the entire console generation.

They're available money is not going to magically increase to let them keep buying new games at that rate if they can no longer sell their now used game.

Not only are they not going to see an increase, I'm going to predict they'll see a serious DROP in sales.

And good riddance. I've already decided this is my last console generation I'm buying into. I'm still confused at how fast the video game industry turned me off "modern" video games in a single generation with all this BS.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Telvin_3d]

Because the stores don't pay very much for used games. The used game that you bought for $30 (instead of $45 new or probably $20 on a Steam sale), the store paid $5. At most. Yes, the stores will occasionally pay as much as $10 for new and hot titles, but those get sold used for as little as $5 off the price of a new copy.

The used games stores are bad for the industry. All the bad things that publishers say about games piracy? The loss of sales and money being diverted away from the people who make the games? The need to jack up prices to make up for sales lost due to alternate means of acquisition? All that shit is actually true about the used games industry. With the kicker that the people lost to the used games pawnbrokers are actually paying customers, which is something you can't say about the pirates.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[GaratNW]

Because content isn't the same thing as a commodity used for transportation. This is the continual apple's to koala bear's comparison, and it still ceases to be remotely relevant.

If the games are good, and people want to play them, I don't see the problem in expecting people to pay for them. Of course, I've been a member of teams who've seen their $10 million game sell 300k units and then have 29 million "registered" users playing online at various points. So maybe I'm just bitter.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Kjella]

What you're missing is that, without a used market for buyers of new games to recoup some of the cost of their unwanted games with, they simply won't buy as many new games.

No, but if they only want to pay $30 because they'd buy at $60 and sell at $30 after a year they will now buy when eventually the price is lowered to $30 because nobody will buy at $60 anymore. Or they can offer both a $60 buy and $30 1-year lease option on release day. There's no way they lose money by being able to totally price discriminate. In fact, they can manipulate the market by fixing it at certain price points without interference from second hand sales, enticing people to buy because the price won't go down anyway. And they can now perfectly discriminate between territories without any gray market or cross-territory second hand sales.

Where they also win is that they exclude all the people whose value change. Say you bought it at $60 and wasn't planning to sell it, so you're indifferent to whether it's a transferable or non-transferable license. Then you find out you didn't actually like the game or grew bored with it and would like to sell it for $10 then you can do that, before you could but now you can't. Instead they now get to sell a $10 game instead of your "unplanned" $10 sale. Of course an entirely rational mind would see this, but as long as you think the value is greater than the price at the time of purchase it is still rational to buy. It is only after you have more information that the game tree has been reduced to your disadvantage.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

"Xbox 720 Might Reject Used Games"? The title should read "Consumers reject Xbox 720 for failing to deliver the full experience on used games".

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[localman57]

The sales that will be lost are not the initial ones but the subsequent ones where gamers are applying their trade-in value to lower the cost.

Except that that's also the wrong way to thing about it. After Gamestop or whoever gives you that credit for your used game, they don't take it out back and set it on fire. They sell it to someone else, at a discounted price. Compare that to Steam, where you can go and buy old games for like $10 or $20 (Which I generally find to be a better value than the used console games at the Used Game stores). The publishers get a big hunk of that money. Consider If you trade in Awesome Game 2, and Get a credit for Awesome Game 3, from EA's point of view, vs if you just buy Awesome Game 3. They make the same amount of money on Awesome Game 3, but lose the ability to sell Awesome Game 2 at a discount to someone who would buy it via Steam or similar.

Ultimately, the distribution cost via digital is almost negligible. Expect EA to price games based on formula P * Q = R where P is price per game, Q is quantity sold, and R is revenue. There's some P which results in a maximum R. Then, factor in the sales they'll make after release, where P decreases over time. These are where the real advantage for publishers come in with one-time buys, as this revenue is icing on the cake. Eventually, they then sell the whole thing to some 3rd party for a lump sum, like Microsoft does with its old Flight Sim / AOE titles.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[suutar]

I would think it depends. Someone who buys enough to budget a chunk of money just for games is probably considering resale value when determining the total cost of the game. Someone who isn't that dedicated to it may not, but is less likely to buy the game anyway (unless it is the New Hotness, which every game wants to be but so few achieve).

The upshot, then, would be that the person most likely to buy the game even if it's not the flavor of the month is the one most likely to figure in resale value. So the best games won't notice, but the midlist will lose sales.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Telvin_3d]

You are dismissing the fact that ideally this would allow them to drop the price on new games. Ideally. Will they do that? Yes, but it is doubtful by much (see iTunes, horrendously expensive for non-physical media).

Pre-iTunes: CDs for $20-$30 for a dozen songs. That you would still need to rip
Post-iTunes: $1 per song

A >50% drop in the price seems about right to me as far as eliminating physical media goes.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[localman57]

Also, cut and pasting an Amazon.com really long, annoying code into Steam or Origin is a heck of a lot less annoying than typing one in using a XBox 360 or PS3 controller. I don't actually see a lot of people putting up with this.

These are easily solved technical problems. For instance, consider if the manufacturer printed the code as a QR code on a 5"x5" piece of paper that you just hold up in front of a Kinect.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[MDillenbeck]

That makes me wonder how they would handle the rental market. If they make special disks that can be used with full features from machine to machine, then what is to stop rental places from buying tons of copies, making their money on each, then selling them used for extra profit? If they don't make special disks, then only the first renter would get the full content - thus making renting pointless.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

They're not luxury items in the U.S.

In most areas you won't be hired if you don't have a car.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

I know quite a few people who sell or trade in the games they are tired of or beat to get credit towards a new game.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[idontgno]

And back it up with tamper-detection hardware and self-destruct capability. And an explicit waiver of liability, which you'll also have to sign.

And the overwhelming majority of soccer moms buying the console for their teen-aged basement beast will just sign and get on with it, because she has a very busy day.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[nschubach]

This Futurama episode comes to mind now when I'm reminded of the ridiculousness of EULAs today:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overclockwise

Cubert overclocks Bender to improve his performance in an online game. Walt, Larry, and Igner are defeated online by an enhanced Bender and complain to Mom, who has both Cubert and Professor Farnsworth arrested for overclocking Bender (a violation of Bender's license agreement). She also sends an army of robots to capture Bender so he can be reset to his original settings.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[GuldKalle]

Depends.
Old car: $2000 / 1000 kg
Old game: $20 / 100 gram
Games are worth 100 times more than cars.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[p0p0]

You're thinking of it the wrong way. People buy consoles with the intent of buying used games later, for cheaper. Very few people I know will get a title at launch and would rather wait the 6 or so months when it drops to about $30 used while the price new is still $60.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Mister Whirly]

The console makers don't make money selling the console hardware. They make money on licensing the games which means they only make money from selling new games.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[X0563511]

Buy a computer and go here.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Pentium100]

The same can be said about used cars, PCs, electronics, almost any physical object, so what? The way I see it, the industry wants to have it both ways:

When piracy is concerned, the industry says "a copy of a game is a product, pirating it is pretty much like stealing a DVD (or a car)". OK, so I guess my copy of the game is just another physical object and I should treat it like that (after all, I do not copy a lot of physical objects).
So, selling a used physical object is perfectly fine - I can sell (or buy) a used car, a tape deck, a PC and many other things. I have bought a lot of used equipment, mostly because I cannot afford new one or it is no longer made. So, if a copy of the game should be treated as a physical object, then it should be perfectly fine for me to sell it or give it away, assuming, of course, that I did not keep a "backup". Except that the industry really does not like it and takes steps to prevent it and make it so when I buy a game, I'm stuck with it forever. When I buy a TV and it turns out I do not like it I can return it (within 14 days) or sell it at a lower price - taking a loss, but still recouping some of the money paid.
You don't hear Intel bitching about all those used PCs sold to people. Or Mercedes bitching about used cars. Or just old cars, the way Microsoft is bitching about the fact that people still use Windows XP and *gasp* do not want to pay them money for a slightly better OS.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[meerling]

My brother buys a ton of games every year, lots of both used and new. However, if he can't trade it, he usually won't buy it. If all games prevented you from selling/trading them so you had to buy new games only, his purchases of new games would probably drop to about 20% of the current level.

Anytime a game restricts his ability to sell it or trade it, he rants about ripoffs and evil corporations interspersed with a generous helping of profanity.
I simply point out it's a violation of the doctrine of first sale., and it's wrong. Like most people, if I buy something, I can do anything with it I want. Whether that be selling it to someone else, burying it in a hole, using it for an impromptu pyrotechnic display, or using it till it melts from excessive wear. It's my item, I'll do whatever I please with it, and no damn creator/publisher has a right to tell me otherwise. (If they want those kinds of rights, they'd better drop the prices to a tiny fraction of what they would otherwise be.)

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

They dont. They sell their games in order to buy new ones.

Now that they can't sell them they wont have money for new ones.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

"this is just some douche blathering on about what could possibly maybe happen sometime in the future. "

Supposedly the original source, I don't know if that's where TFA leads mind you, is someone on the inside. At least according to Kotaku.

And as for Sony, how would they be able to say "It's nicer here" if most of the video game publishers and developers flocked to the 720 exclusively since it can make those "nasty" used games go away?

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[GuldKalle]

But the analogy doesn't need to be that strong. The important thing is that if you buy a preowned X, you are putting money into the X-market, because the previous owner can now afford a new X.

And yes, games are different, but cars are too. All games, however, serve the purpose of me "wasting" my time on them. As long as it's a genre I like, it doesn't matter too much if I'm playing Civ V or Civ II. Just as it doesn't matter if I drive a new Merc or an old Toyota. As long as I get to my destination.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[ILongForDarkness]

You have a point here. People willing to buy a used game are by definition willing to spend money on games which perhaps the average person isn't. More of a PC game thing though, IMHO, most people I know that play consoles actually buy their console games where as PC gamers are always looking for someone with a cracked copy on a torrent site, at least that has been my experience. But regardless you can be pretty sure you are losing something when someone buys used versus new, where as for a pirated copy all you can say is that the person MIGHT have been willing to pay something if they had no other option.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[toolo]

Used market is a rip-off in the big franchises. It is usually the better deal to wait for the re-release to come out at over a 50% discount. I don't see why anyone would sell a game to Gamestop for a pittance when they can sell it to their buddy for a lot more used. A pawn shop would probably pay more than Gamestop.

Anyway... I think it is silly to assume that anyone would require a broadband Internet connection in order to play games on a console. That's just silly to cut that much market out.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

They are going to cut out the retailers, whether they like it or not. They've long since pushed used-sales over new-sales, which does reroute money from the developers to the retailers.

I have no problem with personal used sales, or maybe even local specialty used-game stores. I do have a problem with mega-stores and game-chains that have a conflict of interest in representing themselves and the game publishers under the same roof, in the name of corporate greed.

It's pretty obvious where it's going. Digital Distribution has no used-sales, and eventually it will be used for everything, because it allows a more direct sale and cuts out the middle man and rental space and shipping and packaging costs. This does in turn result to lower costs, just look at Steam or the Apple or Android app stores.

Eventually these backstabbing parasites will be cut out of the equation, and games will become cheaper for everyone.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

Brilliant! Then your only cost is the lobotomy needed to buy a Kinect and not hate yourself!

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[PRMan]

And you can't give a digital download as a gift, but I have bought more packaged games as gifts for others than as digital downloads for myself. This move would cut my game spending by about 90% as I give my friends and kids other types of gifts.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Pentium100]

Unless Microsoft is going to offer the ability to install Linux on X720, I think it will be cracked quite fast - the PS3 was also cracked fast after the OtherOS feature was removed. Before that, a lot of people did not need to crack it, because they could install Linux on it.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[suprcvic]

They don't, but if they have the option of trading it in they are more likely to buy a game they're not sure they'll like. Now that they don't have that option, they'll wait until a buddy buys it and if they don't like it, they never had to buy it and the publisher is out $60.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[ILongForDarkness]

I think part of the problem is how quick things wear out. The car company knows someone will be buying a new car (likely you) if you sell your old one. Eventually that used car will be worth less than it is going to cost to fix it. Software is immortal or at least is compared to how quickly it improves/is expected to be the "current standard". What I mean is you can get a car that is say 10 years old and it will be roughly the same with major model changes about the same range of time. But a car when used typically isn't in that great of a shape after 10 years so will get replaced soon.

Software: lots of engineering work (say ~80% of cost versus 10% for automotive) to improve it fairly drastically every 3 years or so. But if you can live with the older features you could pretty much hang onto it for about 10-5 years (before the OS/CPU no longer supports it on commodity hardware) so there is the risk that your customers will skip 3-5 product cycles between upgrades if they could by used. Not saying it is fair or right but software companies want their current users to give them money at the same frequency that they products get upgraded so that they can pay for all the engineering work required to compete.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

"This is the miscalculation the game companies are making - they won't be able to force us into playing $60 and up for games we'd previously bought used for $30, we just won't play the games at all."

Really? MW3 reached $1bn mark in record time, even faster than Avatar. Looks to me like they are doing just fine.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[wierd_w]

Then the smart thing to do is offer the game at 30$.

This is within the "I will consider buying it despite the fact that hype is almost always a lie" threshold of most used game purchasers.

Selling at 30$ will cause new games to fly off the shelves like hotcakes, which directly undercuts the used game marketplace, and does it the CORRECT way.

The problem, is that PHB thinks that because all the other game developers are selling at 60$, they *must* sell at 60$ as well. The fact that second hand sales are a problem is a deadpan indicator that the unit price is too high.

"We think our games are worth more than 30$ at market!"

Yeah, well, I think that women should fall all over themselves wanting to have sex with me, but that doesn't make it the truth, now does it?

The game industry needs to stop trying to dictate reality, and listen to the market.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[localman57]

Anyway... I think it is silly to assume that anyone would require a broadband Internet connection in order to play games on a console. That's just silly to cut that much market out.

Is it? How much money is there in households that don't have broadband by now? Granted, there's some people with money who live out in the boonies where it isn't available, but my guess is there's a high correlation between the most profitable customers who buy new release games, and people who have broadband. Remember, if you buy something used, or steal it from your neighbor, EA doesn't care about you, because you give them no money.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[I Read Good]

Yeah! I mean, really, would you steal a car?

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[stevenvi]

Because the stores don't pay very much for used games.

Indeed, but you're forgetting that you can bypass used game stores and sell directly with sites such as Amazon, half.com, ebay, etc.

So, for example, when I buy a used game for $30 -- because I never buy brand new games, and I don't care to play online anyways, I can sell it again in a few weeks for approximately the same price, minus the cost of shipping.

The used games stores are bad for the industry.

I disagree. If buying new were the only option I had, I would simply do without. It's the same argument for pirates -- if they had to pay full price, they'd simply do without. This isn't something that I personally lose any sleep over. It's very easy to stop consuming (overpriced) entertainment, and there are many alternatives in the world to occupy one's time with.

Fair disclosure: I'm a software developer in the video games industry. (And I'm supposed to be writing some code right now. :-X)

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Slime-dogg]

Sony has a "best seller" categorization for games that hit certain sales marks, and the price of those games tends to be in the $10-20 range.

So yes, in doing this, you would get the discount, but they'd get the money instead of Funco^H^H^H^H^HGamestop.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[icebike]

Do you buy games or license them? (just asking, since I don't use xbox).

It does make a difference.

Almost no physical item is good analogy to a digital product. Stretching car analogies just don't work.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

So if used games stopped existing then the game prices would go down? I put the odds of this being true at around raining blood and holy crap a monkey just flew out of my ass.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[shrykk]

Then... where do you think the used games come from?

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

I understand what you're trying to say but these numbers are so exaggerated its not really helping the argument at all. A lot of game stores, including amazon, give fairly decent value for games you trade back into a store. For example, Modern Warfare 3 is currently still 27 to trade into amazon, and even a game like oblivion is still 4.50 this many years down the road. Many stores will still pay 30 or so for brand new titles, and then a lot of times offer 10, 20 and 30% increase in trade values if you trade more than 1 title.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Pentium100]

Yes, cars wear out, but they can be fixed (and older cars can be fixed easier - one of the reasons I use a 30 year old car - for example, the electrical system is quite simple, compared to newer, computer controlled, cars). Same is true for other older hardware too - tape decks etc.

As for software, while it is essentially immortal (or at least lasts as long as the hardware that supports it), games are different from tools, such as the OS or an office suite. If I can live without the new features (or I actually like the older version better), I can use the old OS for a long time. However, once I am done with a single player game, I might want to replay it after a few years, but not now. Multiplayer games are a bit better in that regard, but I can still get bored and decide I want a new game. So I will sell my used copy of the game to reduce the price on a new game. I do not think that there are a lot of people who play a single game over and over again, while there are a lot of people who use the same OS every day for many years.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[TheSpoom]

Classic games like Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas

Ow, my age.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[jamesh]

Personally, the online keys were the last straw for me.

So people say "your business model is flawed, i'm going to make an illegal copy of your game", and when they do fall into line with the new world order and make the game itself free to copy but require payment to play it (the right way of doing things IMHO - the world seems to think that information should be free these days), they go and set prices so ridiculous that people still walk away.

If the license to play was $9.95 instead of $60, and you just downloaded the media app-store style, I bet the whole idea of trying to sell the game secondhand becomes more trouble than it's worth.

Also, they should set a sunset date on requiring a license at all. After some time (1 year? 3 years?) the game becomes free to play, maybe with some trailers in it for new games.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Kjella]

Yeah, that's stupid. They are both luxury items, especially when new. Or maybe you think the 75% of the world that doesn't own a car isn't getting by at all.

Does not own a car != does not have access to a car. A couple with children that share a car have as far as I consider it all a car, so you can multiply the 1 billion plus cars with a pretty big factor. I don't own a car but it's because I live in a fairly big city with good public transportation so I only exceptionally need one and I have family I can borrow from and several leasing/pooling options as well. That does not in any way mean I consider cars as a luxury. I consider it a basic transportation tool that I happen to not have any need for on a daily basis. I think it comes down to your meaning of luxury, yes people lived before refrigerators, washing machines, dishwashers, microwaves, TV, radio, computers, cell phones and even electricity. Some people still do, but does that mean billions are living in luxury today?

Standards change, 20 years ago having a cell phone was a luxury. Today there's over 5 billion cell phone subscriptions (july 2010) and it's the standard of living for all but the poorest people on earth, and even they typically share one in some form. Cars have long ceased to be any form of luxury in any sense I'd care to define it. It has become the backbone of society that let people get around and if you don't have one because you can't afford one even though there's not any good alternatives then you are poor, not missing a luxury. Society adapts too, when so many drive to the store it becomes longer between shops. Workplaces place themselves in commuting distances, not walking distances. In many rural areas it's now difficult to function in society without a car, it might not strictly be a necessity but your quality of life will be greatly diminished without one.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[lightknight]

Yes, in much the same way that CDs provided an incentive for the RIAA to drop their prices. Reality dictates that what is printed on the box may differ from the contents inside.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[wierd_w]

See my post further down. This is an abusive and unconsionable approach.

Sayinng:

"We think our games are worth more than 60$, and we won't compromise on that!"

Then colluding with console and OS makers to artificially remove alternatives from the market, is functionally identical (though addmittetly highly embellished to increase absurdity and shock value as a purposeful argument ad absurdium) to the following:

"I think women should fall all over themselves to have sex with me, because I feel I am obviously a sex *GOD*! I refuse to accept your argument that my breath stinks and my overweight physique is unattractive are direct indicators against my self image! I will *MAKE* it so women have sex with me, or they won't have sex at all!"

Then colluding with doctors and obgyns to chemically abort male fetuses and castrate more attractive men.

The ideology is the same in both circumstances, and just as horrid.

Market price is set *BY THE MARKET*. That is how free market capitalism **WORKS**.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[lightknight]

Hmm. Last I heard, the content companies were attempting to renegotiate that pricing, so they could charge higher rates for new songs.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[lightknight]

Lack of hats?

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[lightknight]

And part of me is curious how long they can keep this up.

At some point, it's going to degenerate into a clusterf*ck that going to burn out their customer base. Tick tock.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[ILongForDarkness]

I see your point. The price of manufacturing a game is much less than the cost at the store. If the game studios want money they can just sell a cheaper copy. I guess the problem becomes really popular games. Say a new Final Fantasy. You might play it till you've completed it say a month and then want to sell it while the game is still at full price. They don't want to cut the price of the game so the used market exists. Once a game is a year or so old you see it start to show up in classics collections or whatever at a discount. I guess the problem is that games have a very short half life to the purchaser (at least some games do) but a longer valuable life to the seller (ie the new FF is still a hot item for about 3-6months but you might be done with it after a month). I think this is why the new consoles all have networks and updates of the game. They are trying to give you some incentive to hang on to the game (and pay for extra levels etc) rather than flood the market with 1 month old copies of MW3.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[ColdWetDog]

Depends.
Old car: $2000 / 1000 kg
Old game: $20 / 100 gram
Games are worth 100 times more than cars.

You aren't smoking either of them, dude.

At least, I hope not.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

It's true for used cars, why wouldn't it be true for games? You think teenagers and 20-somethings have tons of cash to buy games and then throw them away if they don't like them or are done with them?

So there you have it! Ladies and gentlemen of Slashdot, let's have another round of applause for the January 2012 winner of the Reductio Ad Absurdum Award! Yes, yes, and might I say, personally, from the depths of my heart, Grishnakh: Thank you. Thank you for showing all of us here today, and all people everywhere who might read this, this month's finest example of why Proof by Reduction is most definitely NOT the answer to all of life's problems. Thank you! Let's give it up one more time for Grishnakh!

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[moderatorrater]

I think that bitching about used games is ridiculous, but this point does have to be acknowledged. If you buy a mercedes that's 2 years old, it is qualitatively less valuable because of wear and tear. If you buy a game that's 2 years old, unless it's damaged beyond repair, it'll have roughly the same quality as a new disc. The bits don't change.

Now, that said, the used game market influences the new game market in poorly understood ways. The influence may be positive or it may be negative, but until there are solid numbers to support one or the other anything they do is just a shot in the dark. Personally, I think the used game market helps the industry overall because it lowers the barrier of entry for people who buy new games and those who buy used. But without numbers, I'm just as clueless as they are.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[yakovlev]

While I agree that this is probably true, consider the following:

1.) If 20% of consumers delay their purchase by six months, this may be long enough to mean that they're buying after a price decrease, or that you've lost a bunch of possible game sales. Either way you don't want to give people a reason not to buy your product.

2.) If another console maker is allowing used game sales, this may drive a significant portion of customers to the other platform. I'd happily pay $100 more to be able to play used games, and would tell my friends to do so as well. This significantly decreases the effect you describe above, as they will simply get the other shiny new console instead of yours.

3.) Many people will buy some new games and some used games. If those people choose not to buy a console, you've lost the new game sales too.

4.) Many people never connect their game console to the internet. How is this going to work again?

5.) This realistically could drive people to PC gaming, where piracy (instead of used games) is the norm. I don't think the game makers would want to trade used game sales for piracy. That would be a significant net loss as consumers would get used to paying nothing for a game, rather than $20-$30 for a used or greatest hits game.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[gweilo8888]

Exactly. If I can't sell my used game to somebody else when I'm done with it, I suddenly perceive vastly less value in the product. A game I'd previously have paid $60 for, I'd now consider to be worth maybe $10.

Thing is, I seldom sold my used games. I did it occasionally, but not often. Hence I'm the customer they want to keep -- I pay full price, and I don't participate in the used market. By taking my options away, though, I'm the customer they're going to lose. I already know they're not going to cut their price to my perceived value, so I'll just stop buying altogether...

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

They could get a license that allows for multiple keys to be generated for a discounted price per key. When you get the game in the mail you get a slip with your key.

The system can be setup so that once a key is used, the old key is disabled so people can't horde/share keys.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not a miscalculation at all. You aren't making them any money when you buy a used game. In fact, you cost them money when you play multiplayer on the servers they insist on hosting themselves.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[noh8rz2]

Umm... It's not true for used cars. I don't know any teenagers or twenty somethings who buy new cars with the intention of trading them in later.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Man On Pink Corner]

Everything beyond homeostasis is a "luxury."

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Talderas]

EA doesn't care about you and neither does Microsoft. In fact, to Microsoft you're costing them money. You bought a loss-leader console from them. Since you buy used games, Microsoft doesn't see a $ of licensing revenue for the game you're playing.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

no you wouldnt, because you turn around twice, then you walk away. walking away is still a direction not towards the machine, no matter how many degrees you turn.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[noh8rz2]

That's A pretty dumb analogy. Just sayin. Of course the market will decide who wins here. Company A uses a strategy to eliminate used games, while Company B uses a strategy of embracing all players. Who will win? Only the market knows! More precisely, there are probably specific segments in which Company A will win out, and specific segments in Company B will win out. So tone down the vitriol, mmkay?

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

Being the Kinect, you would take out Ye Olde Semaphore Flags and wave the long code.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Grishnakh]

By your own admission, you DO participate in the used market (as a seller). So even though you don't often sell your used games, you do sometimes, and that helps justify your expenditure (and lower your risk): basically, if you try one out and you end up hating it, you have a way of recouping part of the cost. By eliminating that, you're going to be much more reluctant to try out games you aren't really familiar with.

It's like people who buy stuff on Ebay, and if they don't like it or don't need it, they "rebay" it. When you're buying stuff, you're less cautious when you have a way of getting a partial return, just like people who shop at places like Walmart will buy stuff more readily because if they take it home and the clothes don't fit right, or their kid doesn't like it, they can just take it back for a full refund.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[jimbolauski]

But you don't own a copy of the game just a nontransferable license you must have forgot to read the size 2 print. Game makers don't think there will be any push-back from consumers as as long as that's the case why would you expect anything else.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Marillion]

Then just step on it as you walk away.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[clarkn0va]

especially not with sony looking for any advantage it can get against MSFT. Can you imagine how quickly Sony would jump on that? 'You can't buy used or rent games for the 720 but you can the PS4. Come over to the PS4, its nicer here" and watch the 720 sales take a dump.

Would you say the same thing if MS started charging rent on a comparable service that Sony was offering for free (Live v. PSN)? Or something that Linux offered for free (RDS v. XDMCP)? I'm not saying they shouldn't charge more; this is capitalism, after all. But to say that any modern media company won't increase prices while decreasing value is a little naive, especially in this age.

I'll give you one thing though, MS is retarded.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Grishnakh]

Huh? You really think people buy cars (at ages under 30) with the intention of driving them for the rest of their lives?

Normal people sell their cars at some point, whether it's 2-3 years later, 10 years later, or even 20 years later. They're not worth that much 20 years later of course, but they are usually worth something on the used market, depending on the model. My current car is 17 years old and I recently found a note on the windshield from someone asking to buy it. Before long, I do plan to get another (probably new) car, and at that time I'll be selling mine on the used market for whatever I can get for it; I'm certainly not going to take it to the junkyard. Even if it wasn't running, it'd still have value for the parts.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[jimbolauski]

There's lots of money there, large houses with large yards make for a higher cost per customer to run wires to them, most homes that sit on 5 or more acres don't have broadband because it is not offered.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[pscottdv]

Because the stores don't pay very much for used games. The used game that you bought for $30 (instead of $45 new or probably $20 on a Steam sale), the store paid $5. At most.

I'm almost always surprised at how much money Game Depot is willing to pay for my used crap. Mega Media Exchange pays even better.

The used games stores are bad for the industry. All the bad things that publishers say about games piracy? The loss of sales and money being diverted away from the people who make the games? The need to jack up prices to make up for sales lost due to alternate means of acquisition? All that shit is actually true about the used games industry. With the kicker that the people lost to the used games pawnbrokers are actually paying customers, which is something you can't say about the pirates.

I buy mostly used games for my kids. Occassionally, I'll pop for a new title. I have also spent my money on two game systems, accessories and controllers. When things break, I spent money on replacements. Take away the used games, and I spend nothing. It is simply not worth the cost of the console and accessories to play the very few games for which I would be willing to spend $60.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[adamofgreyskull]

And you can't give a digital download as a gift

Are you talking specifically about the XBOX 360? I'll plead ignorance of digital distribution on consoles but my wife bought me RAGE & F.3.A.R. and my brother-in-law bought me Star Wars: Force Unleashed 2 via Steam for my last birthday. I gifted the latest humble indie bundle to a friend as well as a copy of Orcs Must Die with all the DLC for Christmas. If you're saying that you need/want to wrap and give a physical object, then well...*shrug*. I know you can get gift-cards for Wii & xbox360 credits but I guess if you want to give an actual physical gift then you probably won't want to give a gift-card...

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[pscottdv]

I love my kinect! My kids get exercise now!

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[pscottdv]

Pre-iTunes, CDs sold for $15-$18.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously though WTF does this have to do with the 720, or the mii, or the PS4 for that matter? this is just some douche blathering on about what could possibly maybe happen sometime in the future.

Well i might grow wings out of my ass and fly south for the winter

no you definitely will not.

but that don't mean its gonna happen

it definitely won't.

especially not with sony looking for any advantage it can get against MSFT.

sony don't sell that kind of product anyway.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Grieviant]

Well then, we should be able to look forward to a nice price drop on new games if this idea gets pushed through. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight ......

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[the_B0fh]

Just like the price of music CDs were supposed to go down when they transitioned from casette tape to CDs... remember that?

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[TaliesinWI]

I also get years of use out of a car vs. 20 hours for a video game. In fact dollar for dollar a car is probably a better value.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

There will be a USB powered FleshLight for that.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[TaliesinWI]

Pre-iTunes: CDs for $20-$30 for a dozen songs. That you would still need to rip

Where the hell did you buy your CDs? Most of the music on iTunes is the kind that tends to be sold at discounts at places like Wal Mart or Best Buy, so it's more like $12-15 for a CD. Even when somewhere like Barnes & Noble sells it at full price it's $18 or so.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

Since you can encode a bit into the polarization of light, by choosing a low enough frequency, you can encode the game into an arbitrarily small amount of mass. The true price is actually arbitrarily high per gram.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Imrik]

It doesn't matter if they buy games with the intent of trading it in, if when they trade it in they buy new games.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[chrismcb]

You want to sell more new copies of a game?

It is the age old "I steal because the item is too expensive" argument. And the reason that the media moguls want things like SOPA. Just because they've priced it too high, doesn't give you the right to steal it.

Yes, if the price is cheaper, they will probably sell more copies. Will they sell enough to offset the price drop? Where is the sweet spot?

Yes, if there is no used market, some people won't buy games. BUT some people who would have bought the used games, will now buy the new games. Where is the sweet spot?

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

Really? I don't, but I'm pretty much the only person I know that doesn't. Everyone else I know trades in games to get new ones. If they can't trade in their old games, they'll have less money to spend on new ones, and hence buy less new games.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[KhabaLox]

(after all, I do not copy a lot of physical objects).

My wife and I made two little copies of me.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes. Cars aren't really consumed - when you need a car you need a car, and you use that car until it breaks or you are ready for an upgrade. Most people don't trade in their car every couple weeks, and if everyone was doing that, the car industry would be damaged. Games on the other hand, really are consumed. You buy a game, you play it until you beat it or until the fun runs out, and then you are done with it - it has no value for you anymore. Games used to be created with more value, designed to last a long time, very few games produced now are designed this way. So the direction the industry has taken has made games MORE consumable than they used to be, which has contributed to this crazy used games market. New games shouldn't have to compete with used games a week after the game is released.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[steelfood]

More like after the 720, you're so disoriented that they can just snatch your wallet from you without you noticing.

Or maybe you're so dizzy they can kick you in the balls while you're trying to stand up straight.

One of these is probably appropriate.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Dr. Hellno]

Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas can be had NEW for $15

Actually, in October 2011 they had one of their many unbelievable, mind-blowing sales. I picked up GTA 1-4, vice city, san andreas, and liberty city... all for TWELVE DOLLARS.
For all that people say about the value proposition of 99 cent iOS apps, there's no beating a Steam sale for value.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[LucienChase]

There seems to be a point that many people are overlooking. The used car business is actually quite good for car manufacturers for another reason: spare parts. When a car (inevitably) wears out, parts need to be replaced. Where do you go to get car parts? Back to the manufacturer of the car, of course! Then, they sell those parts at a large mark up, and benefit from it. They may even manufacture defects in to parts to get them to wear out faster, and thus make more parts sales. From a certain point of view, this is where the games industry is going now with online passes. They're trying to make money off of used sales by forcing "wear" and making people buy replacement parts to get things working properly. The car analogy still fits rather nicely for the current state.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Squiddie]

How are games from steam new? There's no box art or manuals or anything that's remotely collectible. The minute that I am unable to buy games in boxes with collector's editions and stuff is the moment that I turn to piracy if I ever play a game, or just buy indie titles. Hell, at that point, I can't even let my friends borrow games or give them away when I'm done, which sucks because I give away a lot of games to my brother and my cousins.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Pentium100]

New games shouldn't have to compete with used games a week after the game is released.

Why not? If a game is so short lived that it gets sold as used a week after release then it should compete with the new games.

If you want your game to not be sold as used a week after release then make a game that will still be interesting/fun/etc a week after I buy it. I see the used games market as rental - it probably is harder to rent a game (like a movie) because you might want to play it for longer than a day, so you buy it and then sell it as used for less.

Movies are also consumed - I buy it, I watch it and I'm done with it for some time (or I may not want to watch it again ever). So, instead of buying, I can rent the movie. If I want to watch it a few years later, I can rent it again. Or if I want to have it or watch more times, I can buy it and keep it.

I also think that if people sold new cars after a few weeks and bought new ones, the car industry would be really happy. For one, the people who would sell a car after a few weeks will buy a new one from the dealership (not a car that is a few weeks old). So, the total number of cars would increase as the prices for older used cars drop. It would also displace old cars (after all, how many cars does one person need?), which means that the authorized mechanics would not need to support as many old cars as they do now.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[xero314]

The same can be said about used cars, PCs, electronics, almost any physical object, so what?...You don't hear Intel bitching about all those used PCs sold to people. Or Mercedes bitching about used cars.

This is about as wrong as one can get. Physical objects have a limited life span. The quality of the product degrades over time. There is much higher true value between a car with 0 miles and a car with 100000 miles. Media on the other hand can be completely consumed multiple times with no degradation in quality. A car can also only be used by a single user at a time (or the maximum occupancy), but media can be consumed by an infinite number of people simultaneously.

Mercedes doesn't need to bitch about used cars, because they continue to make money on them, through used parts sales, or they chose when to stop producing parts because they will get higher value out of producing newer products. They don't worry about after market part sales because they know there is a physical cost involved in producing those parts (though auto manufactures have fought against after market parts in the past.). Computers are the same way, as the will physically fail over time, and the user will then need to purchase a new product. Digital media does not have this issue. 50 years from now, those bits will be still be the same quality they where. Using those bits 24 x 7 will not cause the bits to degrade any faster.

You might have a valid argument but it's hidden behind your completely invalid analogy

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[LateArthurDent]

I would like to see numbers on how true this is. I don't think a lot of people buy games with the intent of trading it in later.

Really? Where are the used game stores getting their used games from, then?

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Stormthirst]

Not even stretched limos? *smirk*

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Pentium100]

Physical media will fail over time too - discs get scratched, broken etc, especially if they are actually used.
Also, while multiple people can use the same car to go someplace, only one player can play a game at the same time (for online multiplayer each player has to have his own copy of the game).

Computers will fail over time, but that time is very long compared to how long a game is played or how long new legit copies of the game are being made. It is also long time compared to how fast the computers are advancing. Who can live with the older system (maybe whatever they want to use it for does not require a quad core CPU) does not buy a new one, depriving Intel (or AMD) of their potential profits while giving money to whoever used to own that PC.

The fact that hardware fails in the long term does not matter in the short term. Would the game industry be happy with used sales, provided the games were recorded on recordable discs (that fail within 5-20 years)?

Also: I can rent a movie, watch it and then return in. I can get a book from the library (for free), read it and return it. Why can't I rent a game, beat it and then return it? Why the game industry is so "special" compared to the movie industry? Used game sales are basically rental for those who bought the new games.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[sirroc]

Activision or Microsoft wouldn't "make" shit if I bought MW3 used, on the 360. Yet, both would make plenty of margin if I bought their DLC map packs.

By allowing used sales it potentially keeps the game's community alive longer. By eliminating the value based customer you could potentially limit the community as a whole; where the player base shrinks from its post launch honeymoon. I would love to know how many people are playing MW2 right now on Live that did not by the game at launch or even MW3.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[AmigaMMC]

I also get years of use out of a car vs. 20 hours for a video game. In fact dollar for dollar a car is probably a better value.

20 hours? Have you just discovered Pac Man?

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[BoberFett]

I've gotta say, even at $30 that's a helluva deal. Depending on how into it she is, it's very cheap entertainment. My time spent on Oblivion cost me about $0.10/hr.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[pimpsoftcom]

You wouldn't smoke a downloaded car, would you?

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[mjwx]

It's true for used cars, why wouldn't it be true for games?

Because cars cost lots more than games.

The principal is the same, only the scale differs.

If we weren't allowed to sell cars second hand, would there be a significant rise in new car sales or just less cars on the road?

In actual fact, I think we'd just see a rise in illegally sold cars.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

180, you stupid, spaghetti-slurping cretin - *180*! If I did a 720, I'd go completely around and end up back where I started!

Unless you were this guy

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[smellotron]

They are also missing the point that the presence of a used market drives sales, because you aren't so skittish about blowing $60 on a game if you know you can recoup some of that later.

They know that. They are already selling DLC packs which cannot be resold, and the net value of the DLCs may very well match the value of the original disc. Statistics from DLCs can be used to infer sentiment fur non-transferrable games: if the DLCs sell (almost) as well as the original game, it's probably cost-effective for them to rape our right of first sale.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Richard Dick Head]

Well, they do. Its still the thought that counts.

If I have a 20 game library, and the console dies, what is the likelyhood I ever buy the console ever again?

NEVER! Not because I couldn't save up for it, but because all of a sudden I realize I was a fool for buying, and will never do so again.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[IICV]

Not if you're Michael Jackson!

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Elrond, Duke of URL]

By your own admission, you DO participate in the used market (as a seller). So even though you don't often sell your used games, you do sometimes, and that helps justify your expenditure (and lower your risk): basically, if you try one out and you end up hating it, you have a way of recouping part of the cost. By eliminating that, you're going to be much more reluctant to try out games you aren't really familiar with.

Absolutely true. In the long long ago, when copyright hadn't yet been entirely perverted, you could still return PC games and sell them back to the game stores. When this was a possibility, I purchased far more PC games. Then the rules changed and the number of games I bought decreased dramatically because the risk for me was much higher. If I didn't like a game, there was nothing at all I could do about it.

I usually wait for at least some reviews anyway, but when at the store, if I saw something for, say, $20 that looked like it might be interesting, I would take a chance, knowing that I could always return it.

It wasn't until Steam became big that I began taking more chances with games again. Obviously, it's not because I can return them, but most indie games are relatively cheap so the risk is much lower.

Here in Tucson, AZ we have a local chain of stores called Bookman's which *does* buy and sell used PC (and console) games. With the rise of digital downloads for PC games purchases, the selection has dwindled, but it's nice to have it as an option. And the software (and console discs/cartridges) all have a 7 day return policy if you don't like it thus further reducing the risk.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[kramulous]

I wonder, whether in the future, the average length of songs will decrease? Song part A, part B and part C.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[MBGMorden]

By the same token, if they're able to ensure all sales are new copies, then game developers may be able to target a lower price after a few months (the "Classics" type collections) and sell new games at a lower price.

Realistically, if you're willing to wait, even the new games get relatively cheap after a year to 18 months. Digital copies even moreso - I'm convinced that if I wait a while I can get just about anything I want on Steam for $10 or less.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[MBGMorden]

We're not talking business software here though: we're talking GAMES. Realistically, outside of a very small group of nostalgic gamers, people want to play the latest and greatest games. They have a shelf life.

How bad of shape a car might be in at 10 years old is debatable (I know plenty of people driving cars that are 15-20 years old and they're still taking them where they need to go just find), but a game that's 10 years old - even if it's "mechanically" just fine - is no longer desirable.

Whether it be physical shape or merely "freshness" of the content, BOTH drop in value over time, so any argument that games are different because they "never wear out" is pointless.

These companies simply want to artificially inflate their profit margins. It'd be like prostitutes claiming that men having sex with their wives are hurting their profit margins. If only a law was passed to prevent that then their profits would soar. Thing is, just because you'd financially benefit from it doesn't mean a law (or other artificial requirement) is just or that you're actually entitled to those profits.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the miscalculation the game companies are making - they won't be able to force us into playing $60 and up for games we'd previously bought used for $30, we just won't play the games at all.

Yes they will be able to force you into paying that for games, because you won't have an option not to and there are enough people who will do it to keep the system profitable.

People mocked me when I said I wouldn't use steam because of the way it locks your games to your account. For me, it was something as simple as wanting to play Magicka while my wife played another game. Since I bought all the games on my account, no dice.

(Enter the lame excuses that I could play in offline mode...)

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

NO SHIT!

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[CastrTroy]

I'm pretty sure the day will come when consoles have their motherboards encased in epoxy, and don't have any external inputs. The only way to load a game would be over the network on their authenticated servers. From my experience with soft-modding the Wii, the problems seems to be all too often that they let you plug in standard peripherals into the machine and copy and load data off the machine. Put a fake save game on an SD card, load it up in some game, and poof, buffer overflow, and the thing is modded. They made it extra nice with USB ports on the thing so you could then hook up a hard drive and run games off that. Maybe not the next generation, but I think eventually somebody will make something that is unmoddable. The big question is, will they be able to convince people to buy it.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

Every person I've ever known with a 360 traded in every single game they got to buy newer ones. Some of them did it because that's what "everyone online was doing", none of them held any sort of attachment to the games they played.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[ae1294]

My car is a 97 and runs great because I took care of it. I don't pay money for games that where made in 1997...

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

Then you have to acquire whatever motion peripheral your console of choice provides to easily scan your code in, or else witness the inconvenience foisted upon yourself. Or wait till someone releases a program that will generate a QR code for you, and bypass the protection entirely, as is the usual case.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Nugoo]

The used games stores are bad for the industry.

By that logic, so is not buying games. Every $60 you don't spend on games is a lost sale! The frugal are destroying America! We need legal tools to force people to spend all their money on video games!

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Jafafa Hots]

That's just the thing.
You can't copy a game because that;s THEFT they say, you're stealing, you wouldn't steal a car would you, etc?

You BUY it. Just like you buy a car. And then you sell it used just life... no wait, you can't, because it's NOT property you BOUGHT. It's information you licensed the right to use a copy of.

I'd say that they were having their cake and eating it too, but YOU paid for the cake. So they're having YOUR cake and eating it too. Which teaches you a valuable lesson.

The cake is a lie.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[masmullin]

You should get a job for the MPAA or RIAA, or the video game equivalent.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[masmullin]

For a lot of people, the price dropped from $19.99 to $3. Because they only bought an album for 3 songs.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[tragedy]

Well, let's say you have your car for 150,000 miles. At an average of 30 mph, that's 5000 hours of driving and at 30 mpg, that's also 5000 gallons of gas. We'll say $3.00 per gallon, so that's $15,000 of gas, and we'll say the car is an inexpensive model at $15,000, let's throw in another $5,000 for repairs, maintenance, inspections, registrations, excise taxes, car washes, etc. So, about $35,000 for 5000 hours of driving works out to $7 per hour (which, frankly, is on the extreme low end). So, comparing it to the 20 hours of the video game, the video came would have to cost $140+ for the car to be a better value.

Of course, all of this is using the ridiculous assumption that you can simply compare car hours to video game hours as an absolute measure of relative value. Still, it does help to actually do the math before you make such statements.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[composer777]

Of course they get some of it. Think about it, why does a gamer sell their games? To get MORE games. The used market drives the new market further, and vice versa. It's a very stupid idea to get rid of market segmentation, since not everyone is willing to pay the same price. That's why CPU manufacturers will sometimes clock chips down and sell them at a lower price (even if they are capable of running faster). It's so they will be able to take advantage of the lower-end market. Game companies have done this through the used market by proxy, and maybe they don't realize but it's a profit source for them.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[masmullin]

I guarantee that you do not own a Ferrari or an Aston Martin, Im willing to take a 3-to-1 wager that you do not own a BMW, Lexus or a Mercedes. Im willing to put even Money that you have a Ford, Toyota or a Honda.

Some cars are luxuries, other cars are luxurious tools, other cars are simply tools.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Kjella]

I don't own a car but (...)

I guarantee that you do not own a Ferrari or an Aston Martin, Im willing to take a 3-to-1 wager that you do not own a BMW, Lexus or a Mercedes. Im willing to put even Money that you have a Ford, Toyota or a Honda.

I'd be willing to take on that last bet... how much are you worth?

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[ILongForDarkness]

Prostitutes are better you know how much the sex is going to cost up front :-)

Games don't have an unlimited life because it becomes hard/impossible to find hardware for them. I realize emulators help with that but for example dust off an old copy of wolfenstein and try to run it on a i7 Win 7 box. Cars ~10 years I live in Canada. Even if the mechanically runs most of them start having serious rust issues due to the salt around that time. Would be nice to live in the southern US where I hear it is common to get 1M km out of a car (here we're lucky to get 200k or so before the car is starting to have serious problems).

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[EdIII]

First off, Microsoft can go fuck themselves. I have not bought a PS3, and my XBOX360 came second-hand to me and is now hacked.

Lately, I won't even purchase a device if I have to spend more than a super trivial amount of effort to load a custom firmware on it to let me do what I want with my own hardware. That was pretty much why I fell in love with Microsoft smart phones about 10 years ago. I could go on XDA-Developers and get the tools to cook my own firmware with my basic programs installed already.

Secondly, and you have really really missed the point here, is that... IT IS TOTALLY IRRELEVANT IF IT IS BAD FOR THE INDUSTRY .

Forgive me for my passions, but fuck them. They are not entitled to profit under all situations and the First Sale Doctrine is sacrosanct.

Seriously. Fuck them. This was the course of events:

1) Somebody purchased the copyrighted work directly from the publisher.
2) At the point of sale, the publisher was compensated.
3) Physical medium was transferred along with the legal entitlements granted by copyright when the copyrighted work was given away freely, or sold for 1/100th of a percent of its original value.
4) The original publisher is not relevant to the second transaction because they were already compensated.

That's it.

The "industry" can bitch, whine, and moan like little three year old children about how they are not getting a slice of every used sale. What they cannot do, is make any kind of argument, with a correct legal, ethical, or moral foundation, that used sales is wrong.

They cannot stop us from used game sales. Period.

Coming into my home, living inside the XBOX 720 firmware, and having the unmitigated gall to tell me that I cannot play a second-hand game (in some cases given away freely by a friend) on a console I rightly purchased.

I'm sorry, but your post is infuriating. Their bottom line takes a back seat to ethics every single time.

P.S - There is PLENTY of PRECEDENCE. First Sale Doctrine has been argued to death and the Auto Industry got their asses handed to them by trying to destroy the after market industry in favor of keeping only their brand of parts in a car. There should be no difference with hardware and software, logically or ethically.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[lister king of smeg]

no it dose not have to be acknowledged. the logical fallacy here is that you are looking at a game information on a media as the same as a vehicle. i look at it like a book. you would never dream of closing used book stores. and books for all intents and purposes are immortal as well i have a many antique books, and my dad has one that was printed in the middle of the 17 hundreds. does buying old books stop me from buying new ones?

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[lister king of smeg]

if they want to go about this model what the ought to do is lease the games to you. also i have thought that apple should lease there idevices if they want to curtail jail-breaking then they could sue people for destruction of privacy

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[lister king of smeg]

*property damn auto correct

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, unless they're going to create the first unhackable/unmoddable console in history. In that case, consider the gauntlet thrown down, Microsoft...

The 360 has almost perfect security.

There were a few bad firmware versions that allowed hackers to install Linux but if you buy a new 360, it's unbreakable [Downgrading is supposedly impossible]. The 720 is liable to be dangerously close to perfect on this front, MS learned from their mistakes disturbingly quickly compared to Sony and especially Nintendo.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[SeaFox]

Yeah. Teenagers should stop buying video games and instead save up for a car.

When was the last time you heard of someone getting laid with their new video game, anyway?

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[w0mprat]

goddamnit if you started facing it you'd just turn around twice and walk into it.

Maybe he meant 720 radians, not degrees? You'd get so dizzy you'd fall down in a heap.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[SuricouRaven]

From the perspective of the publishers, that's a good thing. If they sell directly to the customer via online sales, the retailer doesn't get a cut. Even if they go through an online store, the costs are much lower than those of a physical store with it's higher staffing and property rental.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Totenglocke]

I simply point out it's a violation of the doctrine of first sale.

Which poses the question, why hasn't some group (say Slashdot for example) helped organize people for a class action lawsuit against the entire gaming industry for violating the doctrine of first sale on a massive level?

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[hairyfeet]

But in the case you are citing you can actually see where your money went, the X360 with XBL simply has the better service, especially with matchmaking and leaderboards. Compare it to one of their own products GFWL which frankly sucks donkey balls compared to the X360 with GFWL their matchmaking is just as libel to dump 5 or 6 guys that are leveled up to infinity in with noobs, talk about mass slaughter. Really bad in games like bioshock II where which weapons you have access to depends on your level, so someone with level 50 has the killer trap plasmids and the rocket launcher whereas the noobs have the shotgun and a worthless freeze plasmid.

As for RDS frankly that is just MSFT knowing their markets as I know plenty of home users and SMBs that couldn't connect to a remote desktop if their lives depended on it. that's one of those techs where you need at least a basic understanding of the underpinnings or you are just gonna fuck yourself royally up which is why i'm glad that Windows 7 home has remote assistance instead of remote desktop. i can walk a grandma through letting me gain control through EasyConnect and in fact have done so on numerous occasions but if i tried doing that through remote desktop i'd still be dealing with the mess. If you haven't tried EasyConnect you really should, God I'd love to give the guy that invented that thing a beer as it makes dealing with family many miles away butt simple. One session with EasyConnect and the price of Windows Home looks damned cheap friend.

Finally if you want to see retarded dude you have GOT to fire up a VM and download the Win 8 dev preview, man its a fricking trainwreck! Its a fricking winPhone touchscreen UI for the desktop! What a clusterfuck, Here we are with the vast majority of desktops and laptops NOT touch enabled and it sure as hell isn't gonna change by years end yet they have made an OS that is irritating as shit if you aren't using it on a tablet ZOMFG! You'll think I'm nuts but i think its a conspiracy, I really do. I think the engineers at MSFT have gotten tired of Ballmer's "And with this latest ripoff we'll be cool and hip like Apple, yes we will! We really will! STOP LAUGHING AT ME!" bullshit and are letting him have every dumbshit idea the monkey can think up without calling Captain Obvious to the rescue because they hope another Vista trainwreck will get his monkey ass fired. Just look at his badly aping apple track record and how many of the old school engineers have been jumping ship and i really think the guys that are left are tired of his BS and are gonna purposely let Win 8, aka "Ballmer's WinTab folly' be a giant trainwreck to make the shareholders get pissed enough to fire his ass.

I mean if you said any other company was gonna royally buttfuck a billion dollar a year golden goose just so they could try to sponge off the popularity of the brand name by sticking it in a sector where they've bombed no less than 4 times now (WinMo,Zune,Kin,WinPhone 7), wouldn't you say they were batshit? dude you gotta try the dev preview just so you can say "ZOMFG what are they smoking?" One of my little old lady customers nailed it when i showed it to her and she said "That's a nice looking cell phone screen, is that Android? i heard that's quite nice....what do you mean windows? Windows what? Well that's just stupid! Why would I want a cell phone on my computer?"...I USED to just think MSFT had too many committees and that made them a little behind the curve, now i think Ballmer is turning MSFT into Dilbert with him as the PHB.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Deus.1.01]

That's why you should moonwalk.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

Then they lose the modding community. And others can take advantage of that. Microsoft will be helping to bring the gaming back to PC again

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[St.Creed]

Well, having worked in the automotive for 10 years, I can tell you there is a huge difference in profile between buyers of a new Mercedes and buyers of an old Toyota :) But your point is valid, IMO.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[ShakaUVM]

Not when you can buy a physical copy for $5!

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Daniel Phillips]

Hear, hear. And to fill the gap, it would seem that AAA open source and Indie content is nigh upon us. I am doing my part to help make that happen, are you?

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Daniel Phillips]

180, you stupid, spaghetti-slurping cretin - *180*! If I did a 720, I'd go completely around and end up back where I started!

Turning around twice is a ward against evil.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Froobly]

The difference is that used cars aren't sold at a 600% markup over their trade-in value. Your argument holds for used games in general, but not for predatory used game stores. Stores like Gamestop pressure customers into trading in games that they otherwise would have left on their shelves gathering dust. These customers then bring in their games for store credit without considering that they could make a lot more money off of Ebay or Amazon Marketplace.

I know, let the buyer beware, and there's a sucker born every minute, but regardless whether or not the customer deserves to get a bad deal, Gamestop is doing damage to the economy as a whole. It's good for developers if the customers have money to spend, because they're likely to spend it on games. If those customers are losing money to a company that isn't supporting the industry proportionately, then that's bad for the industry.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Pentium100]

Well, used cars are not sold at 600% markup (though the people who buy cars that no longer work and disassemble them port still useful parts probably get much more money from the parts than they pay the previous owner of the car) because nobody would buy them - there are a lot of sellers so somebody would sell a car cheaper. Or the price would be very similar to the price of a new car. The price of a used game is lower, which is great because it means people with less money can buy it (instead of waiting for a year or, more likely, just pirating the game).

Yes, selling the used game on ebay would get the gamer more money, but it also takes longer and is less convenient than just bringing it to the store. Or at least the gamer thinks so. Stores like Gamestop are providing valuable service (a way of selling and buying used games quickly), so they should get profit from that.

As for the economy - the economy as a whole is the same. Even piracy does not harm it (because if I pirate a game I'll probably spend the money I saved by pirating a game somewhere else). As for the game industry - movie industry survives even though I can rent a movie, watch it and return it (or just watch the movie on TV). Why is there such a big problem with what amounts to renting games (yes, it's technically buying and selling, but essentially it is the same, just the return date is not fixed). If you want the gamers to not trade in the just released game after a week - make it so the game is still fun after a week for most of them. IIRC you cannot return an opened game to get all money back, but you can return a physical object for a full refund in 14 days. So, somebody who bought "Big Rigs over the road racing" on the release day should be forever stuck with it with no way to get at least some money back? Why the exemption for software but not hardware?

Pawn shops also sell items with a (large) markup. Is that also bad?

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Scarletdown]

This is one of the most retarded ideas ever. If they go ahead with this bit of USDA Grade A bullshit, it will ensure the 720 is stillborn.

So then, what happens you shell out $60 or whatever for a game, discover it's pure shit and $60 wasted? No way to recoup your purchase, since it is used and the console won't play used games.

Think the retailers will suddenly experience a big influx of chargebacks from the credit card companies due to their customers making use the only means they now have to get a refund on a crap product?

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[N1AK]

I know 3 different people who buy games on release, play the hell out of them and then trade them in for the next big thing within 2-3 weeks. Typically they can trade in for ~£5-8 less than the game cost. Obviously that anecdotal doesn't prove much, but game stores in the UK often emphasise deals to support this kind of buying behaviour so I doubt it's that rare.

I typically get ~12 games a year. 3-4 of them I'll buy near release (or get as gifts near release). I buy about the same number of older games for ~£15-20 new. I also buy 3-4 used games stupid cheap. Generally these are either titles I missed first time round or that I'd like to try but am not sure I'd like.

I don't complete the vast majority of games that I buy. Skyrim, my current time-sink, will get me through to at least the Mass Effect 3 launch. Unless that turns out to be a complete dud that will get me through to the middle of the year. I haven't played a Gears of War game since the first, haven't got the latest Forza and god knows if I'll ever get time to enjoy Arkham City. If the 2nd hand market died I'd just stop buying the risky cheap 2nd hand games. In return people will be a lot more cautious about buying a game new if they know they can't sell it on for a more manageable loss.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[N1AK]

Either the used game market in the US is way less competitive than the UK or those figures are nonsense. It's common for trade-in prices in the UK to be ~£5-8 below new (as part of an exchange). There are even forums dedicated to finding places you can trade in games for more than they cost to buy elsewhere.

There is some seriously ignorant point of view that treats every 2nd hand game sale as the loss of a full price game sale. It's bollocks; in fact, it's extremely obviously bollocks:
Buyer #1 buys Blockbuster A for $60
Buyer #1 trades in Blockbuster A for Blockbuster B and pays $10
Buyer #2 buys the traded in Blockbuster A for $50

In total 2 new games have been sold.

The only way the market is being hurt is if Buyer #1 would have spent $120 dollars on two games (rather than $70) and Buyer #2 would have bought the game new as well. I have seen no evidence, let alone any that is compelling, that the people trading in games would spend nearly 200% as much (to be able to buy all games without trading in) if the 2nd hand market stopped.

Ultimately the 2nd hand games market is dead. The game makers have decided to kill it and I think they're causing themselves more pain than the 'problem' they are solving but that is there decision.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[heroid1a]

Tried Flightgear then? Opensource y'know. Not most amazing graphics, but not bad for the price!

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Guignol]

Yes, exactly, and this is even worse than that.
I am close enough to your style except I do not only buy used games
I mostly buy (ebay etc.) used games or the games when they are old enough and they are re-released as 'platinum'
But I also sometimes get a gift, and somtimes I will just want that game right now and buy it new at full price
I am fairly certain many people are like that
To me, this means I do not buy the console at all, so here are the lost sales

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Stuarticus]

It was very nice of her to gestate your clones for you. Mine insists on some sort of messy hybridisation process that I find disturbing.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[ByOhTek]

That, and many people buy both.

I'll buy used games after 6 months or so, for a reasonable price, and new games after a year or two, for their reduced price, and if it looks like it'll be really good, a new game, new.

I love my 360, but half of my games are used, and it wouldn't be worth it if I just got new games. Same for any of my consoles after the SNES. If they do that, I certainly won't buy.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[silentcoder]

More-over, without the option of buying used games. Quite a lot of us will simply refuse to buy another console ever again. That means we're buying nothing at all. No console, no games.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

Fatal Error: How can you honestly believe what you just typed? If a lot of people don't have the intent of trading games in....... Why is the used game market so big Einstein???

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[starsky51]

He said 'walk away', not 'walk forwards', smart arse!

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[bWareiWare.co.uk]

The main issue with cars is after you own 2-3 you run out of drive. The only hope they have of selling you more is if they take the old ones off your hands.
With video-games you would be in the high hundreds before anyone had a storage issue.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Friggo]

I didn't know cloning was legal? :)

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

I would like to see numbers on how true this is. I don't think a lot of people buy games with the intent of trading it in later.

I do. As do many of my friends. If a game sucks I want my money back. The only way to recoup my loss it to trade in. Otherwise I just will not buy as many games.
Like dead tree publishers, game companies will continue to fold as their market shrinks. Perhaps it's time to stop gaming and go back to D&D or Aftermath :-)

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

You want to sell more new copies of a game? Have a non-insane pricing plan that actually decreases the cost of new games progressively as time goes on.

Too lazy to sign in, pardon the AC. Prices are progressively dropped as time goes on. For the big titles that I can't wait for, I buy them on day 1, it's $60 (sometimes $50 if there's a sale), for others I can wait on, I usually pay $20-$30. Most of those games are knocked down over time. Assassin's Creed: Revelations can now be had for $30 new and that's 3 months old? Dead Island can be found new for $25-$30 Lego games are $50 new, wait 2-4 months, and they're all $20. LA Noire, $20 new, or $30 for the complete edition new. Dragon Age 2 is $20 new. Batman: Arkham City is $40 new. Really, you can pluck out a list of 15-20 AAA titles released in the past 12 months where the price has dropped progressively over time.

Don't wait for a greatest hits release, just check prices on games your interested in and when a price seems fair to you, buy/don't buy.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[SgtChaireBourne]

The console vendors actually are seeing money from used games. The sales of new games is in turn partially financed by the sale of used games. If you know you can recover some of the cost of a game once you get tired of it, you're going to be more willing to shell out for a new game. Without the sale of the used game, there are fewer new game purchases. The money is there, it's just taking an extra step and a little delay. Killing the used game market is going to cut into the new game market. The only question is how much? Unfortunately the vendors are unlikely to do the math.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[noh8rz2]

young people don't buy fucking new cars! Young people buy used cars, or new cars are bought for them by mummy and daddy.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[mysidia]

The used game that you bought for $30 (instead of $45 new or probably $20 on a Steam sale), the store paid $5. At most. Yes, the stores will occasionally pay as much as $10 for new and hot titles, but those get sold used for as little as $5 off the price of a new copy.

The store is taking on risk by purchasing used games for resale. The item won't move off the shelf and get purchased as fast as a new title. It might not turn out to be sellable. Employees have to spend time buying these from customers, inspecting them, pricing them, repackaging/preparing them to be resold, and reselling them.
Shelf space in a store is expensive, and the store still needs to make overhead and have a healthy profit.

The used games stores are bad for the industry. All the bad things that publishers say about games piracy? The loss of sales and money being diverted away from the people who make the games? The need to jack up prices to make up for sales lost due to alternate means of acquisition? All that shit is actually true about the used games industry.

And I suppose you would say the Libraries and used book stores are bad for industry as well? The loss of sales and money being diverted away from people who write books.

And the used car dealerships result in money being diverted away from the people who build cars.

All that used stuff must belong in a landfill?

This is not really in the public interest. If they can implement physical means to prevent reuse of their products, then copyright laws should be taken off the books.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[ynp7]

If you're waiting 6-12 months to buy you should be getting them for "half price" new. If you're not it's because you're a complete moron.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[ynp7]

Teenagers, maybe not. Twenty-somethings, yes. The core demographic for video games is older than it's ever been and certainly has the money to buy games new. Especially with most new games being available for 2/3 or 1/2 the original price at some point within the first two months of release.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[The Rizz]

If you think software seriously outlasts cars, especially in the video game market, you're crazy.

My current vehicle is 16 years old. It cost about 10% of what a new vehicle would, but gives me 90% of the value of a new car. (I have slightly lower gas mileage, and the sound system isn't as good, but the real point is to get from point A to point B.) Used vehicles may require more maintenance, but in my experience it's not that much more than a new car's (and parts often cost less since they're more readily available used/3rd party). Let's estimate it at about 10% the cost of a new vehicle over the lifespan of my ownership.

Now, let's look at a 16 year old video game ... unless it's crazy-good, or has a high level of nostalgia, I can't imagine getting 20% of the enjoyment out of it I get out of a new game, let alone the 90% of a used car. Bad graphics, bad controls, and a lack of features available on newer titles all add up to make older games considerably worse entertainment than current titles.

If I buy a used game, it's typically because (a) it's an old game I used to like, and wanted to play it again, or (b) it's an earlier game in an ongoing series that I've heard is good. In the case of (b), this has typically ended up with game companies getting more money from me; in the last year I have bought and played through the Assassin's Creed series (borrowed/bought used 1 & 2, and bought the next two games new), and about a month ago I finally played Mass Effect 1 (bought used) - which is going to get them a ME2 sale in the next few weeks, and probably a purchase of ME3 at launch. (Note: In the case of Mass Effect, I actually couldn't find a new copy for purchase - ME1's used price is nearly as high as most older games sell for new).

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[The Rizz]

(after all, I do not copy a lot of physical objects).

My wife and I made two little copies of me.

Actually, I think that those would be considered derivative works.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[KhabaLox]

Actually, one is a scarily accurate copy. He has the same double-crown cowlick, is extremely shy and moody, and loves Star Wars.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Krau Ming]

turn around twice then back away cautiously, never breaking eye contact with the beast.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[s73v3r]

If it's so true, then you should be able to produce numbers.

Besides, cars are vastly different than games.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[s73v3r]

Wow, that is incredibly retarded.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[s73v3r]

Those are anecdotes. Not data.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[s73v3r]

The store is taking on risk by purchasing used games for resale. The item won't move off the shelf and get purchased as fast as a new title. It might not turn out to be sellable. Employees have to spend time buying these from customers, inspecting them, pricing them, repackaging/preparing them to be resold, and reselling them.
Shelf space in a store is expensive, and the store still needs to make overhead and have a healthy profit.

I'm sorry, but that's entirely bullshit. And it still doesn't justify the obscenely low prices places like GameStop give for used games.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[s73v3r]

Huh? You really think people buy cars (at ages under 30) with the intention of driving them for the rest of their lives?

Pretty much, yeah. I know several people, myself included (and since this was the only form of data given for the question I asked above, it's good enough for an answer to yours) who will buy a car with the intention of running it into the ground. Not with the idea of trading it in after a few years.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[s73v3r]

If it's so obvious, then provide some data, then. I'm asking for what percentage of people will do this. I don't think it's that high.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[s73v3r]

No, I'm not. I'm asking what percentage of consumers buy games with the intent to trade them in later toward the purchase of another new game.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[s73v3r]

Ok, that's one anecdote. I'm asking for actual data.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[s73v3r]

I'm not denying there's some amount of people who do this. I'm asking what % does it. I don't think it's that many.

Further, people sell games for other reasons all the time.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[s73v3r]

Way to be an asshole. I'm asking for data. Nobody is giving it to me, but they're sure willing to chastise me for questioning their groupthink.

And people sell games for other reasons than to get the next one.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[s73v3r]

You know what, asshole? If what you're saying is soooooo obvious, you should have some actual data to back it up.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[s73v3r]

Nice anecdotes. Those aren't data, though.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

you could walk away - with a moonwalk

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Dusty101]

I respectfully disagree, at least for the big games companies. This should just be a routine part of the cost/benefit calculation made before greenlighting a large-budget game development project for companies such as EA. If a company really thinks that it can't turn a profit on a given project from initial sales, then the managers should de-scope or kill the project before throwing good money after bad. Although it's not always possible to know in advance if a given game will be commercially successful or not, if such a company consistently fails to turn a profit based on the merits of their products over time, then that company's management is doing something fundamentally wrong. Locking out used games usage is just a lazy attempt to leverage their existing business position to grab more money without working for it.

Having said that, I have more sympathy for smaller, indie developers whose margins are narrower. In many cases, however, this has led to product innovation (inventive new gameplay, novel DLC, etc.).

Incidentally, although I have some used games, I buy most of my console games new because I want to own a new product (and some of those have been sequels to the games I bought second-hand that I might not have bought otherwise). However, I don't want the game development houses to get complacent - they should have to work for their money, the same as car manufacturers, PC makers and, well... me.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[LateArthurDent]

Way to be an asshole. I'm asking for data. Nobody is giving it to me, but they're sure willing to chastise me for questioning their groupthink.

The used game stores are full of used games, somebody had to buy it new and then sell it to game. I wasn't trying to be condescending, I was pointing out something obvious which I thought you missed. It is data, it indicates a healthy used-game market. I considered giving you anectodes (basically, I don't know very few people who keeps their games after they're done playing it), but I didn't, because that wouldn't be data.

And people sell games for other reasons than to get the next one.

That's not the point. The question you need to ask yourself is if these people have bought the game in the first place if they knew they wouldn't be able to sell it later? Or rather, what percentage of them wouldn't? I don't know the answer to that, you don't know the answer to that, but we both know it's not zero (and for claiming that the number of people who wouldn't buy games for $60 if they couldn't sell it isn't zero, my anecdote becomes actual data). If the game companies kill the used game market, they're gambling that this group of people isn't significant.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Nyder]

I would like to see numbers on how true this is. I don't think a lot of people buy games with the intent of trading it in later.

I've known plenty of gamers that gets new games when they come out by trading/selling old games. If they finish a game that has no big replay value to them, they will sell it as soon as they can when it's worth more money. Games like Modern Warfare/Call of Duty, they tend to keep a little longer usually, but then will sell/trade them in for other games.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[AmiMoJo]

People don't have infinite disposable income. Companies can't just keep bleeding them endlessly. The issues with online play and DLC are well understood by most consumers who buy second hand games because there are big stickers warning them about it placed there by the shops.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

My wife and I made two little copies of me.

At least the two of you had the sense to not make any little copies of her. God, getting one of those things through puberty... the thought scares me...

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[mysidia]

I'm sorry, but that's entirely bullshit. And it still doesn't justify the obscenely low prices places like GameStop give for used games.

Obviously, you have a total lack of understanding of the retail business and time value of money.

But their offering of used game exchanges has to be built on a solid business case, nonetheless, for their management to keep their jobs.

The reason such a low price is offered should be obvious -- that they have determined that the amount they will pay for used games is sufficient to build a big enough used game inventory that they can sell to obtain an extra profit, such that they will neither leave large amounts of money on the table, by failing to obtain marketable product, nor constrain the profitability of their other business.

If there were inadequate supply of used games available to them at that price, then they would have to pay more... that is, the seller of the used game would be able to negotiate a deal better than $5 a game: If people were not actually bringing used games to them and letting them go for that amount, then either they would be offering more, or not be in the used games business.

Since obviously... people are bringing used games to them at their current prices, or they are able to efficiently obtain them at that price, then the question they would have to deal with is -- is the pricing right for buying used games?

If they offered more money to buy peoples' games, then economically speaking, they would have customers bringing in more used games to sell at that amount -- and their risk would be increased, with the larger used game inventory, there might not be buyers immediately available for all those games at a profitable price, then the purchase could be a loss.

There is not an infinite immediate demand for every used game title. There is a cost involved in tying up money with the purchase of used games from customers -- in the form of lower returns to shareholders, or in the form of interest payments to their bank on money borrowed. There are also per-item costs in relation to the rent of the floor space. Property taxes on inventory, and numerous other costs.

Since the sale price of each unused game has to be high enough to make up for the costs of other used games in inventory that won't get sold within 6 months or more, break-even is like a 200% markup.

Again, as for the pricing when selling used games -- it must be sufficiently high that the discount of the used games does not cause their customer base to abandon new game purchases, reducing profitability.

It would not be in the interest of Gamestop to displace their new game business by selling used versions of anything released in the past year at a substantially high discount.

There is a conflict of interest here in that the used game dealer is also a new game dealer.

Also, they are offering a convenience.... the $5 or so price for a used game, is like a convenience. Sure, you could eBay it for more, and there are other venues such as direct sales.

Any pawn shop or other store that deals in used merchandise is likely to make a similar offer.

The fact of the matter is... you giving a used game to a retailer is a market that strongly favors the buyer. If time and convenience aren't important, then you wouldn't be there, you would be doing the leg work to list the used game for sale, to obtain something close to its retail value.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

Lost sales?

Gaming Market grows every year.. Biggest entertainment industry. Nothing more than corporate greed

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Pseudonym]

But regardless you can be pretty sure you are losing something when someone buys used versus new, [...]

No, that's not true. People can and do buy games in knowing that they can resell or trade it later. A game that you can't resell less useful, and hence worth less, than one that you can. The inability to resell will certainly result in fewer sales.

Exactly how many is an open question, but if you'll take an anecdote, the most reselling and second-hand purchasing that I've seen (and done) is with kids' games. These are routinely traded when kids outgrow them.

One more thing: Don't forget the rental market. I've bought AUD$25 second-hand games on a whim, but I've never put down AUD$70 on a game that I haven't played (possibly on someone else's machine) first.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Pseudonym]

I think that bitching about used games is ridiculous, but this point does have to be acknowledged. If you buy a mercedes that's 2 years old, it is qualitatively less valuable because of wear and tear. If you buy a game that's 2 years old, unless it's damaged beyond repair, it'll have roughly the same quality as a new disc. The bits don't change.

I think you're confusing quality with value. The quality is the same, but the value does decline over time because there is value in novelty, as well as Blinn's Law.

If it helps, consider that nobody would be willing to put down the 1992-era cover price, let alone adjusted for inflation, on a brand new imprint of Sonic the Hedgehog 2. It simply does not have the same value as it did in 1992.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Pseudonym]

I see the used games market as rental - it probably is harder to rent a game (like a movie) because you might want to play it for longer than a day, so you buy it and then sell it as used for less.

FWIW, my ten-year-old daughter just completed Portal 2 in five days, less than the one-week rental period. Probably serves me right for letting her know that walkthroughs exist. And admittedly this isn't including finding all of the easter eggs, playing the co-op mode or going through all the commentaries. Still, there's one data point for you.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Pseudonym]

I just bought the Ultimate Genesis Collection. My kids have been enjoying it immensely.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Pentium100]

So, great. It is possible to finish the game withing the rental period. Which means that I can, well, rent a game (paying $x for it), play it and return it. The result is that the rental store has the game and some money from me.

Then what is the problem with used game sales. I buy a game (and pay $y > $x), play it (maybe for longer than a week), return it and get $z (< $y) back. The result is that I basically rented the game for longer than a week for ($y-$z, which probably is more than the $x I would have paid for the rental, but I got the convenience of a flexible return date). Why is this such a problem?

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[The Rizz]

Wait a minute! You just described one of MY kids! Maybe copy is the right word - I'm totally suing you for infringement!

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

Why don't you go do some data mining of your own instead of asking people that don't care? You want the numbers? Go find them. Nobody here can help you.

People buy games, people sell games, people trade games in for used games, people trade them in for new games. If you need hard numbers, go ask your local gamestop. don't bug /. about something that isn't easily measurable. It's not like gamestop asks you to fill out a survey asking why you are trading in your games or if you plan on trading in the new game you just bought.

You are asking for "data" that nobody in this world can reasonably provide you with.

You are stuck with anecdotes because that's ALL people can offer since that's pretty much all they have experience with. You know, THEIR OWN EXPERIENCES.

I, for one, buy 3 or 4 games, then sell them to trade in for another new game. I don't make much, but the publishers get ONLY new sales from me.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[ILongForDarkness]

I'd still say the studio loses something on a used sale. There would have been some amount of the money that they could have skimmed off of you. Say everyone resells there games to take it to an extreme. Than the amount that people are willing to pay for a new game that do pay for the game is the retail price - the buy back price they'll get from a used store ~$5. The used store turns around and sells the game for $20 if the studio instead was the one selling the game at retail for that price they would have gotten a portion of that sale. In theory selling a locked version of the game for $5 less should sell the same as a unlocked version that you can sell for $5 later but it gives the studio the opportunity to control the market. The studio is better off once the sales have flattened on the game to start dropping the price eventually to the discount bin level so that new is always close to the used price the classic "skimming the market" technique that is used for hardware.

That is assuming brand effects aren't taken into account which if they are it might mean the damage to the brand of being in the discount bin is greater than the used sales are worth (EA might never want to see FIFA in the $5 bin for example) as well as the cost of any licensing that has to happen (eg. rights to players).

I see your point with kids games. They probably have a much longer life too since kids are relatively easily amused where as there are a bunch of adult nerds out there that will say "oh the fill rate on the fog effect is so 2005" :-).

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do people say this?

You turn around twice.
And walk away.

Not walk forward... walk away. Not inhibit further turning... walk away.

Lack of critical reading skills is prevalent, abusable, ...amazing. Keep it up.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Pseudonym]

I don't think that second-hand sales are a problem. I'm just pointing out that even some of the best games can be completed (for some definition of "completed") within a typical rental period.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Pentium100]

Probably the vast majority of single-player games can be completed (at least once all the way from start to one ending) within that period. Some games then can be modded or have multiplayer so they can still be interesting.

Almost all movies can be finished (watched at least once from start to end) within the 24hour rental period. So, a lot of people rent them instead of buying them.

Linear games are basically interactive movies (and I like them, especially the adventure/quest/crime ones that are even more like movies) that run longer. So, I do not think that the game industry should complain about video game rental no more than the movie industry complains about movie rentals (or book authors complain about libraries). Used game sales (within a short time frame) are basically extended (and more expensive) rentals, so the game industry should not complain about them too.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

"I would like to see numbers on how true this is. I don't think a lot of people buy games with the intent of trading it in later."

How the fuck do you think Gamestop gets 100 copies of each AAA title available used a week after it's fucking released?

(hint: They're not making new copies on their own!)

But you want to know why people accept the 5 dollar off shit from Gamestop, which caused this entire flamewar to start between developers and gamers?

Because Gamestop also tends to mangle the new game product. How often have you bought a game that was "new" but opened? All so they can throw 18-30 copies of the box up on the shelves for display among other reasons.

So it's either pay new, or pay 5 dollars off AND use your edge card to get an extra 10% or more off - for what's in most cases a game that's in the EXACT SAME CONDITION.

Gamestop profits more on the used titles. This helps make people think that the 5 dollar off deal is a Good Thing.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[ubrgeek]

We'll buy games - third-party, indie games from companies that find ways to make them playable on the consoles. Manufacturers will sue and someone like Penny Arcade will start a petition to raise awareness and protest the manufacturers. It'll go to court and with the deep pockets of the folks like Microsoft gamers will lose. Anonymous will step in after DHS shuts down megauploadindiegames.com. Then we'll see a Gamer Spring and warrants will be issued for Gabe and Tycho, who manufacturers will think are real people. Taxpayers will spend millions trying to hunt them down in Washington state via armed drones. And then zombies appear. I'm not sure how, but that's pretty much how these things always end. Damn zombies.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[ildon]

>180, you stupid, spaghetti-slurping cretin - *180*! If I did a 720, I'd go completely around and end up back where I started!

Can't tell if this is a *whoosh* or not.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

3 years is disturbingly quickly? Feck, you must have a boring life!

And the Xbox 720 will just be like the Xbox 360. It will turn out to be the inferior console out of the two main ones - Xbox and PlayStation. That is the Microsoft way. Why make something great when it can be just good enough, and they can cut corners! People never learn!

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

every single person I know with a console is like that for the larger games and that amounts to 'bout 6 or 7 people in my case.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

If I could not buy a used car for much less than a new car, I would not buy a car at all. And I live in a rural community, several miles from the nearest town, I have never owned a new car and do not intend to buy one any time soon. so from my perspective, and the perspective of many others it is a luxury, if a used, cheaper model is not available, and many people will do without. And theres the fact that if all the new consoles keep you from playing used games, I simply wont buy one. The company making the console now will lose the money I would have spent on the console, as well as any games I may have purchased for said console in the future.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, but there is always the chance that all the big gaming companies will used anti-used games software in their next gen consoles. The way I see it, the more h*ll we raise about it being a bad Idea now, the less likely they will implement it later.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

Not if you were moonwalking away.

Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

I showed that bitch my apm, bitches love apm...

Bought fake Insluin, hope someone has some info on

[Anonymous Coward]

There was a post last month before thanksgiving on the So-Cal Craigslist with an elderly gentleman selling R type insulin for cash or btc. The last part caught me eye and from out talks, its sounded like he just had a recurring RX and was letting the stuff go for cheap aslong as you payed him the cost and a little bit for his time.

Well last night I went to refil my insulin pump, and woke up nearly dead today. It was just water, or saline, or who knows.

Point of this post is to see if anyone else saw that post and kept the info, and to warn off people in the LAX area buying insluin online.

That's fine

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll just reject the Xbox 720.

Re:That's fine

[Anonymous Coward]

Just like my friends and family rejected me for not having a 720

Re:That's fine

[Barefoot Monkey]

They must reject a lot of people, then.

What about Sony et al?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is the headline of this article focussed on Microsoft and the Xbox 720? Surely this is pure conjecture and can just as easily be applied to *any* PC or console game? I haven't RTFA as it'll be a load of made-up crap by the author.

Re:What about Sony et al?

[rtfa-troll]

Why is the headline of this article focussed on Microsoft and the Xbox 720? Surely this is pure conjecture and can just as easily be applied to *any* PC or console game? I haven't RTFA as it'll be a load of made-up crap by the author.

Yes; it does seem that reading is a skill beyond many of the people stepping up to defend Microsoft from this accusation. From the fine article:

“I’ve heard from one reliable industry source that Microsoft intends to incorporate some sort of anti-used game system as part of their so-called Xbox 720,” Kotaku’s Steven Totilo wrote on Wednesday morning.

Re:What about Sony et al?

[Anonymous Coward]

That means nothing! I can say that I heard from a reliable industry source that rtfa-troll is into smoking dried bananas, and is as a consequence incontinent. If he can't name the source, then it's conjecture. It's that simple!

Re:What about Sony et al?

[bonch]

Why is the headline of this article focussed on Microsoft and the Xbox 720?

Because the article is about Microsoft and the Xbox 720. Because the source of the article is about Microsoft and the Xbox 720.

I haven't RTFA as it'll be a load of made-up crap by the author.

You'd be amazed at what you can learn when you RTFA instead of posting a knee-jerk reaction.

Re:What about Sony et al?

[tripleevenfall]

You're beyond the pale of /. orthodoxy.

Microsoft is the enduring force for truth, justice, and the American way - in the console market. Sony is the devilish corporatist plutocrat outfit in this sector that we love to hate. If you want free mod-ups, you have to bash Sony in game threads, MSFT in PC threads :)

Re:What about Sony et al?

[Anonymous Coward]

Like Woodward and Bernstein were just engaging in conjecture?

Re:What about Sony et al?

[tepples]

Microsoft is the enduring force for truth, justice, and the American way - in the console market. Sony is the devilish corporatist plutocrat outfit in this sector that we love to hate.

Might this difference in reputation have something to do with the presence of Xbox Live Indie Games vs. the removal of an advertised feature and lawsuits against those who would restore it?

Re:What about Sony et al?

[cpu6502]

This will probably make my cracked (backspace)(backspace)(backspace) used games worth more money on ebay.

Reminds me of my Atari, Commodore, and Amiga days.

Re:What about Sony et al?

[cpu6502]

Can't I just simplify my life and bash both in both genres?

If it's true I can't buy games, play them, and then sell them as "like new" used condition (thus recouping my money), I might as well just stop playing modern consoles. I'll become a classic gamer (Ataris, Commodores, Segas, NESes, PS2s.)

I hate RIAA. I hate MPAA. I hate limitations upon my freedom.

Re:What about Sony et al?

[Anonymous Coward]

(Different AC)

I read the article and it is just made-up crap. Sure, it's based on Microsoft tossing the idea around, but it's about as substantial as aerogel. This entire story is a knee-jerk reaction. Pot, meet kettle.

Re:What about Sony et al?

[tripleevenfall]

It's not the evil that is the issue, it's who does it and what we think of them.

Apple does Evil E. Google does E as well. Apple does E because they are evil. Google does E but it's okay, because they promise for the moment not to advance beyond E, and because they have goodness in their hearts.

Re:What about Sony et al?

[b4dc0d3r]

Now I'm waiting for that one guy to claim you're a shill for Reading Rainbow.

Re:What about Sony et al?

[Bob the Super Hamste]

Oh come on. You know he would sell his soul to meet LeVar Burton the greatest actor that has ever lived.

Re:What about Sony et al?

[dyingtolive]

I heard bonch was a Reading Rainbow shill. Mod down.

Re:What about Sony et al?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hiding out in here to sockpuppet mod yourself up a bit eh? I guess at least you've stopped with the Great Bunzinni and iOS vs. Android marketshare trolls for the time being.

Re:What about Sony et al?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, it's based on Microsoft tossing the idea around

Not even that. It's based on some unspecified "industry source" claiming that Microsoft is tossing the idea around.

Re:What about Sony et al?

[acedotcom]

will they use chip smashers too?

Re:What about Sony et al?

[Anonymous Coward]

Clearly, you wrote this before the submissions that followed this one.

Re:What about Sony et al?

[Anonymous Coward]

Amen!

Re:What about Sony et al?

[Waccoon]

When Sony announced the forced arbitration agreement, with an option to opt-out, gamers everywhere were furious. When Microsoft introduced forced arbitration, I didn't hear a peep about it. I found out only by actually reading the new EULA (and fully rejected it. Now, some of my downloaded games no longer work).

The quantity of evilness has little to do with reputation. Sometimes it just depends on who moves first.

Re:What about Sony et al?

[man_the_king]

When Sony announced the forced arbitration agreement, with an option to opt-out, gamers everywhere were furious. When Microsoft introduced forced arbitration, I didn't hear a peep about it. I found out only by actually reading the new EULA (and fully rejected it. Now, some of my downloaded games no longer work).

The quantity of evilness has little to do with reputation. Sometimes it just depends on who moves first.

True - And actually, on Slash-I-love-Microsoft-and-the-360-and-hate-Sony-dot, there was no mention of the forced arbitration on the 360 (even though, with MS, there wasn't even a choice to opt-out via snail mail).

Bull

[Anonymous Coward]

A) There is no way anyone has information on this system that would be negative toward it's image.
B) People won't even bother to buy the new console and stick with the 360
C) What if you change systems, buy a second new system, or these systems fail as often as the 360 (hope not)

Re:Bull

[Hatta]

Yes, this is complete speculation at this point. Forgive me if I give no credence to unnamed sources from kotaku.

Any game company would be stupid to do this. Lots of people finance their next AAA game by selling their previous AAA game. Prevent that, and you'll see fewer sales.

Re:Bull

[Anonymous Coward]

A)Timothy knows!!!
B)Yes they will
C)Your obviously fucked

Re:Bull

[xmorg]

You underestimate the power of marketing
when a new console comes out, millions of dunderheads rush to buy it, and although may complain about this or that they end up living with it, EVEN if its a massive step back in owner privacy/rights/usability. The shiny new graphics are usually enough to get people to buy it, and forsake their old. The commercials, newsmedia, yea, the culture itself will offer you a choice, which will you buy, the wIII, the Ps4 or the 720????

Within weeks of the new system coming out, teens will forsake the 360 like yesterdays news. My little cousins right now would have to be pretty bored to play a ps2. They will just accept that you can no longer bring a game over to your friends house, they will just bring the whole system. Gamestop will find another way of making money...

Re:Bull

[click2005]

A) There is no way anyone has information on this system that would be negative toward it's image.

Yes because underhanded dirty tricks to increase greed for corporations never get leaked. (ACTA)

B) People won't even bother to buy the new console and stick with the 360

Until they start to upgrade their stuff to only support the new console and stop support for the 360. (DX10,XP)

C) What if you change systems, buy a second new system, or these systems fail as often as the 360 (hope not)

Thomas in Bangalore will help you move your account. This is a 360? I'm sorry the new online system isnt supported by the 360.

Re:Bull

[Anonymous Coward]

EA certainly wants to. :) But you are right... stupid companies only...

Re:Bull

[s73v3r]

C) What if you change systems, buy a second new system, or these systems fail as often as the 360 (hope not)

While I doubt the accuracy of this story as well (or maybe it was just a feeler put out there to see how people would react to such information), I would hope that the games would be tied to an account, much like your XBLA purchases are. Otherwise the idea is purely asinine (it's asinine anyways, but more so).

Slashdot is dead

[Anonymous Coward]

Infiltrated by Google employees and well-wishers, Slashdot consistently offers justifications for every bad behavior and terrible decision coming from Google. Just look at the privacy changes article in which fanboys banded together to make sure Google was perceived as the good guy and that anyone critical of them was modbombed.

Just to recap, Google is a multibillion dollar advertising megacorporation that was caught by the German government sniffing people's wifi data (they "accidentally" did it for three years before admitting it only when authorities threatened an investigation), forced people to use real names on Google+ and admitted it was an identity service and not a social network, stuffed Google+ results into the search engine without any competing social networks even though they have those networks indexed by the search engine (hello, Microsoft tactics), said that the only people who care about privacy "have something to hide," hacked into Mocality to call its customers, removed H.264 support in Chrome out of "openness" only to turn around and ship the closed-source Flash plugin, withheld Android source from the public but shared it with privileged hardware partners so they could have a leg up, abused their Android compatibility program to make things difficult for smartphone makers who chose Bing over Google, and on and on and on.

With all this crap they pull that would get them completely trashed if they were Microsoft or any other company, there's one reason and one reason only that they have been propped up as the good guy on Slashdot all these years--Linux. They use Linux. Slashdot is a Linux advocacy site, and so because Google uses Linux, they are good guys and get a pass for everything. That's all it takes to get Slashdot to love you. Just use Linux.

Hypocrites. When Microsoft used their Windows monopoly revenues to fund development of Internet Explorer and release it for free to try to dominate the web market, everyone here cried "antitrust!" But when Google uses its web search monopoly revenues to fund development of Android and release it for free to try to dominate smartphones, everyone defends it. For anyone who was on Slashdot during those times, to see Google doing all the very same things Microsoft did but get a completely different reaction is surreal.

Slashdot is a bubble. You only get pro-Google, pro-Linux news. Major news occurring elsewhere is often days late, if it gets reported at all. The Google+ search results fiasco is huge all over the tech sites right now, but there's nothing about it here, as if it doesn't even exist as a controversy. And did you know iOS surpassed Android in marketshare by the end of 2011 according to three research firms? With how obsessed Slashdot is over marketshare, and how they constantly trumpeted Android's marketshare all the time as a victory last year, you'd think it would be big news. But, no. This is pro-Google territory, pro-Linux territory. Gotta keep the natives happy for more page views.

This will get modded down because trolls have taken over the moderation system and openly subvert it. That's fine. It just proves my point about how Slashdot reacts to anything outside the partyline. This site's news reporting is old, antiquated, and slow, but the news isn't even why people come here anymore. The part of the community still remaining (after its years-long exodus to Reddit, Hacker News, and other sites, which is why traffic has decreased so dramatically on most Slashdot stories today) only comes here to pat themselves on the back for thinking a certain way. "Yeah, Microsoft is still evil! Yeah, Google is still the good guy! Yeah, Apple is still for chumps!" It's the year 2000 forever on Slashdot.

Every new generation

[FrYGuY101]

"Hey the PS2 is going to prevent you from playing used games!"

Oops, no, you can just fine...

"Hey, the PS3 is going to prevent you from playing used games!"

Nope, wrong again...

"Hey, the next Xbox is going to prevent you from playing used games!"

At this point, I'm convinced it's just a way for the hardware people to wrangle a little bit extra developer support before launch, where inevitably they aren't stupid enough to do something that would alienate their core market...

Re:Every new generation

[oursland]

Actually, I follow games and gaming consoles fairly closely and this is the first time I've heard of a console being a threat to the used gaming market. All previous threats came in the form of online keys or downloadable content.

Re:Every new generation

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's what the OP is referencing.

iOS now has more marketshare than Android

[Anonymous Coward]

It's official: iOS now has more marketshare than Android. Reuters reports that Apple completely erased Android's marketshare lead, confirming earlier reports by both Nielsen and NPD. Over 150 Android smartphones couldn't outcompete the iPhone 4S. With 37 million iPhones sold last quarter, Apple is the largest smartphone marker, and their profits exceed Google’s entire revenue, $13 billion to $10.6 billion. Finally, with 15 million iPads sold last quarter, the tablet market is now larger than the entire desktop PC market.

Remember that Slashdot triumphantly posted in January 2011 about Android surpassing iOS in marketshare. A year later when the opposite happens? Not a peep. Talk about bias.

Re:iOS now has more marketshare than Android

[Anonymous Coward]

FWIW, I submitted numerous articles about this and none were given a nod.

Re:iOS now has more marketshare than Android

[Anonymous Coward]

No, no, NO, NOOO! *sticks fingers in ears and whimpers gently*

At least...

[slacker22]

we'll be able to witness the 'resale value' elasticity of demand.

Highlights a philosophical problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Can you ever really own software? It seems natural to think of it as a product that can be bought and sold... but in the modern era of licenses and DRM, of artificial scarcity, we are slowly coming to realize that we are paying money for nothing. The fact that this stuff can be copied on a whim jars with traditional notions of physical property.

That's Alright

[Sardak]

Oh, that's alright. I'll just have to cut back on my video game purchases so that I don't end up with a whole bunch of crappy games that I can't resell.

Think about your breathing

[Anonymous Coward]

Hello you are reading the THINK ABOUT YOUR BREATHING TROLL!
Yes that's right, THINK ABOUT YOUR BREATHING. Why you might ask? Well it's simple!
Your brain usually takes care of breathing FOR you, but whenever you remember this, YOU MUST MANUALLY BREATH! If you don't you will DIE.
There are also MANY variations of this. For example, think about:
1. BLINKING!
1. SWALLOWING SALIVA!
1. HOW YOUR FEET FEEL IN YOUR SOCKS!
1. THINK ABOUT YOUR BREATHING AGAIN!
In conclusion, the THINK ABOUT YOUR BREATHING troll is simply unbeatable. These 4 words can be thrown randomly into article text trolls, into sigs, into anything, and once seen, WILL FORCE THE VICTIM TO TAKE CARE OF HIS BREATHING MANUALLY! This goes far beyond the simple annoying or insulting trolls of yesteryear.
In fact, by EVEN RESPONDING to this troll, you are proving that IT HAS CLAIMED ANOTHER VICTIM -- YOU!

Good new for Steam

[andy9o]

This could be a huge boon for the PC Game industry. And no, I'm not talking about Piracy. But, without used games to bring the cost down, gamers like myself will shift more of their funds to heavily discounted digital download titles on the PC, which is something I've yet to see matched on the console side.

Portman

[Anonymous Coward]

"Trollin', Trollin', Trollin',
perl scripts a' pollin',
keep on slashdot trollin',
Portman!
Mae Ling Mak and First Post,
So I can now boast,
Wishin' my gal was petrified.
All the things I'm missin',
My Karma, baths, and wimmin,
I don't care, or else I'd cry!

CHORUS
Click 'em on, post 'em up
Post 'em up, click 'em on
Click 'em on, post 'em up
Portman!
Click 'em on, post 'em up
Post 'em up, click 'em on
Click 'em on, post 'em up
Portman!

Keep movin', movin', movin',
Though they're disapprovin',
Keep them fingers movin,
Portman!
Don't try to understand 'em,
Just post and reprimand 'em,
Soon we'll be trollin' far and wide!
My porn's stimulatin'
My right hand will be achin'
I don't care or else I'd cry!

Portman!
Portman!

not too good for archiving

[Trepidity]

After some years of neglect, since the late 1990s some libraries, universities, and other cultural organizations have realized that videogames are an important cultural artifact, so are worth preserving just like films and other bits of culture are. There are now things like this at Stanford, and quite a few others. These are usually put together by buying used arcade cabinets, cartridges, CDs, etc., from anything from flea markets to eBay (in addition to donations from individuals and collectors).

Videogame makers seem to be doing whatever they possibly can to make this as difficult as possible, especially for organizations like libraries that need to follow the law. It seems like if videogames are actually documented/preserved as interesting cultural artifacts, it's going to be by less-official organizations that crack them.

Re:not too good for archiving

[Anonymous Coward]

Pfft. There's no money in preserving culture. If people are allowed to enjoy existing culture, we'll never make any more money. People don't pay for novelty.

*opens a history book*

Never mind.

Re:not too good for archiving

[clarkn0va]

especially for organizations like libraries that need to follow the law

Nice dichotomy. I know that's my primary reason for not being a library--I don't want to have to follow the law.

Kill Used Games? Say Hello to Piracy

[decipher_saint]

If the secondary market becomes impossible, piracy will spring up to take its place, if anything else to increase availability of hard to find titles.

Re:Kill Used Games? Say Hello to Piracy

[The MAZZTer]

I believe at least one publisher has stated used games are a BIGGER problem for them than piracy. They receive no money for either one, but used games are legal and you can just walk into a store and buy one so it's more accessible for more people. It would not surprise me if devs are trying to kill them, though obviously they have to be careful or else lawsuits will likely be thrown their way (perhaps legitimately so, I should be able to resell my own property that I don't use anymore).

Re:Kill Used Games? Say Hello to Piracy

[alen]

WTF is hard to find titles in 2012? you can find any game anywhere in a B&M or online anytime. and this will have downloadable games so you can just pre-order and it will download a few weeks before release and activate on release day like steam

Re:Kill Used Games? Say Hello to Piracy

[ticker47]

How would piracy work for XBOX games? Computers and their OS's are fairly malleable, you can either modify the system to ignore bad keys or modify the game to not need a key. But with XBOX being a fairly closed computer system, how would one bypass something like a CD Key that requires online validation (that would probably them by tied to your account),especially when you have no access to the game files? I'm sure it's possible, but what would be required to bypass such a system and could the average person who just wanted to play their friends game be able to do it?

Alternatively this could just lead to a more Steam like system and games would be attached to your account and allow you to download on any device and play as long as you were logged in. I wouldn't mind that as long as they had sales on games like steam does and an offline mode.

Re:Kill Used Games? Say Hello to Piracy

[Anonymous Coward]

Gamers are still convinced that the Hottest New Game! is going to be hard to come by. They're convinced they need to preorder these games so that they can get their copy, while the clerks laugh at them, knowing they'll have whole cases of games left after the fulfilling the preorders and selling the everyone else who walks through the door on release day.

Re:Kill Used Games? Say Hello to Piracy

[Anonymous Coward]

(perhaps legitimately so, I should be able to resell my own property that I don't use anymore).

Ah but it is not your property. Thanks to the EULA you only have the right to use it when and where the owner of the property says you can.

Re:Kill Used Games? Say Hello to Piracy

[GreyWolf3000]

First they realize that digital bytes can, by their nature, be copied trivially (unlike physical mediums). So they employ unusable DRM and ridiculous laws like the DMCA just to make their digital media behave like physical media.

Now they've got such a hard on for DRM and their ability to lobby that they want physical media to behave more like digital media. It's like they're twisting the knife.

Re:Kill Used Games? Say Hello to Piracy

[Anonymous Coward]

They receive no money for either one

In a similar vein to what was posted in an earlier comment, they actually do benefit economically from used games. If I'm someone who tends to buy games when they come out and then later sell them, depriving me of the 2nd hand market will give me less money to spend on new full price titles. The majority of those buying it from me in the first place hardly count as a "lost full price sale" for the game studio anyway, as if they were willing to wait for me to finish playing it before buying they're not about to switch to buying full priced games the instant they hit the market.

Re:Kill Used Games? Say Hello to Piracy

[sureshot007]

Maybe if game developers made a game that took me more than a day to beat and interested me enough to play more than once, I wouldn't be willing to sell it so easily. Essentially, what I'm trying to say is that if they want to kill the used game market, make the game good enough that people want their own copy, instead of trying to find ways to force people to buy it.

Re:Kill Used Games? Say Hello to Piracy

[Anonymous Coward]

It's pretty hard to have sympathy for video game developers when virtually every other industry on earth has a used market.

Re:Kill Used Games? Say Hello to Piracy

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't agree with preventing customers from playing used games, but nothing would prevent you from selling your used games. They would just be worthless to everyone else.

Re:Kill Used Games? Say Hello to Piracy

[Anonymous Coward]

If publishers bought used games back and then resold them, they'd be capturing both markets. Nothing's stopping them but themselves.

Re:Kill Used Games? Say Hello to Piracy

[Xtifr]

I believe at least one publisher has stated used games are a BIGGER problem for them than piracy

That's what they want people to believe, but, of course, it's pure nonsense. They sold one copy, and one person owns that one copy. The fact that the person who currently owns that one copy is not the original purchaser is irrelevant.

The real problem is that it's hard to make games that have any replay value. Nevertheless, book and movie makers (who almost have it worse) seem to be able to live with the existence of used sales just fine. Curiously, before games, it was musicians who were most likely to freak out when they discovered the existence of the used goods market, despite the fact that music generally has far more replay value than books, movies or games.

But punishing users because the game makers aren't good enough at making games people want to keep is ass-backwards!

Re:Kill Used Games? Say Hello to Piracy

[Anonymous Coward]

So the way you word that. The used games market is the only thing keeping piracy at bay. If they make it the only option it will suddenly not be possible for it to be illegal.
Same logic of "what if everyone just doesn't pay there taxes one year, they can't arrest everyone".

Re:Kill Used Games? Say Hello to Piracy

[Anonymous Coward]

If the secondary market becomes impossible, piracy will spring up to take its place, if anything else to increase availability of hard to find titles.

This is quite true. I would start pirating video games purely out of spite if this were to happen.

Re:Kill Used Games? Say Hello to Piracy

[piripiri]

But you do know EULA are not legal replacement of the laws?

no used games is less new games sold

[alen]

2010 bought x-box
bought Black Ops
played it, sold it and bought GoW new double pack
played it sold it and bought new copies of ME1 and ME2

if i have to pay $60 for games, and no resale then i'll buy a few games like ME or Dragon Age where you can replay with different characters to get some value

or just keep playing x-box 360 games. lots of GOTY and other super editions with DLC and add ones out there for CHEAP.

The disks will be free soon.

[bsdnazz]

You'll need to buy a license key on line.

This disk will just be a distribution for large files (not every one has high speed broad band yet) and advertising medium.

In related news

[Lectoid]

In related news, Gamers might reject the Xbox 720

Re:In related news

[tepples]

What will they play instead once Microsoft shuts off Xbox Live access for Xbox 360 games, just as it has done for original Xbox games?

Re:In related news

[spire3661]

Xbox 720 will be compatible with 99% of all 360 software. There were real world technical reasons to kill live on xbox 1 games. It wasnt jsut them being meanies.

Re:In related news

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would they? The fucking sheep "gamers" were more than happy to accept paying a perpetual monthly fee to microsoft in the form of "X-Box Live". If they accepted that, they'll accept anything.

Re:In related news

[CelticWhisper]

Offline single-player Xbox 360 games?

Re:In related news

[Anonymous Coward]

Indie games designed for PCs or consoles or console based pc emulators.

easy enough.

Big name gaming firms will kill themselves by not allowing resale of used games.

Re:In related news

[scot4875]

And there will likely be real-world technical reasons to kill live on XBox 360 games.

--Jeremy

Re:In related news

[tepples]

Indie games designed for PCs or consoles

I thought nobody gave two craps about indie gaming.

Re:In related news

[Anonymous Coward]

Technical reasons like what? Friends list cap? seriously? It's STILL at 100 right now, so it's not that.

Kinect functionality? uhm? why would the original Xbox need that?

As for service updates, why couldn't a major dashboard update for the original Xbox keep it in sync with Xbox LIVE right now rather than just pulling the plug?

That's right! to sell more Xbox 360's

Sigh.

Re:In related news

[oursland]

Could you elaborate on the technical reasons why XBox Live for the XBox had to die? I can't imagine that all the original XBoxes out there suddenly stopped working.

scot4875's comment has been modded "Funny" but I think he's right on the mark.

Re:In related news

[Waccoon]

Now that Microsoft uses a forced arbitration agreement that's even worse than Sony's, I've rejected my 360.

Steam ain't any better

[Shivetya]

they are just like the Apple App store... the prices are lower but you are forever stuck with the purchase, you cannot sell it.

Heck I can't even sell the apps I bought with my iPad should I choose to never have an Apple product again, the apps don't go with with iPad. When I sold my iMac recently I had to revert it to Snow Leopard because when I asked Apple, Lion belonged to my account, not that machine I bought it for (the new machine came with Lion)

So how low must the prices be before its acceptable to give up the option of resale?

Re:Steam ain't any better

[Killerfishmonkey]

Why would you get rid of your games? Its called a collection. And.. steam is awesome. Origin however is crap

Re:Steam ain't any better

[cpu6502]

>>>just like the Apple App store

Same with e-books (those things filled with text; no video or sound). You pay full price and can't ever sell them, unlike the old physical item.

It's why I never bought a Kindle until they gave me an offer I couldn't refuse (Fantasy & Science Magazine for $10/year). Still haven't bought any books; they are overpriced.

Re:Steam ain't any better

[Mashiki]

Steam started trading last year. So I'm not sure what your complaint about steam is. Though other stuff is in the pipe still, but saying you can't sell it? No you can, it's just BBW still.

Re:Steam ain't any better

[Anonymous Coward]

$5.00 is my limit. If I can't resell it, I won't pay more than that for it. Period.

It isn't a problem since steam frequently has sales where games that once cost $60 now sell for $5 or less.

I feel it is relevant to add....is the game is smaller because the devs expect to sell it that cheap, then I won't pay more than $2.50. Most indie games fall into this category.

Re:Steam ain't any better

[Bucky24]

"only games that have been bought as a gift, and thus have never been played, can be traded."
From https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=6748-ETSG-5417#howtotrade

Re:Steam ain't any better

[grumbel]

To quote from the page you linked:

Does Steam Trading mean I can sell my used games?

No, only games that have been bought as a gift, and thus have never been played, can be traded. Once the Steam Gift is opened and added to your game library, you won’t be able to trade it again.

Re:Steam ain't any better

[Anonymous Coward]

Tie each game to a new steam account and then sell the steam account for the game you want to sell.

Re:Steam ain't any better

[Squiddie]

A collection of digital files is no collection at all. I could easily just pirate the same games, DLC and all, and it would be the same thing. Steam is a service, not a retailer of products. You own nothing, and thus can never let a friend borrow your games or give them away to other people when you are done with them. This was the biggest part of gaming for me and without that buying games has no meaning or purpose.

Re:Steam ain't any better

[Anonymous Coward]

So how low must the prices be before its acceptable to give up the option of resale?

Simple:

When (cost) is less than (original cost) minus (resale value)

example: Which is better. buying a game on steam for $40 that you can never sell back... or buying a physical copy for 60 and eventually selling it for 20

BSD is dying

[Anonymous Coward]

It is now official. Netcraft has confirmed: *BSD is dying

One more crippling bombshell hit the already beleaguered *BSD community when IDC confirmed that *BSD market share has dropped yet again, now down to less than a fraction of 1 percent of all servers. Coming on the heels of a recent Netcraft survey which plainly states that *BSD has lost more market share, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. *BSD is collapsing in complete disarray, as fittingly exemplified by failing dead last in the recent Sys Admin comprehensive networking test.

You don't need to be the Amazing Kreskin to predict *BSD's future. The hand writing is on the wall: *BSD faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for *BSD because *BSD is dying. Things are looking very bad for *BSD. As many of us are already aware, *BSD continues to lose market share. Red ink flows like a river of blood.

FreeBSD is the most endangered of them all, having lost 93% of its core developers. The sudden and unpleasant departures of long time FreeBSD developers Jordan Hubbard and Mike Smith only serve to underscore the point more clearly. There can no longer be any doubt: FreeBSD is dying.

Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers.

OpenBSD leader Theo states that there are 7000 users of OpenBSD. How many users of NetBSD are there? Let's see. The number of OpenBSD versus NetBSD posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about 7000/5 = 1400 NetBSD users. BSD/OS posts on Usenet are about half of the volume of NetBSD posts. Therefore there are about 700 users of BSD/OS. A recent article put FreeBSD at about 80 percent of the *BSD market. Therefore there are (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 FreeBSD users. This is consistent with the number of FreeBSD Usenet posts.

Due to the troubles of Walnut Creek, abysmal sales and so on, FreeBSD went out of business and was taken over by BSDI who sell another troubled OS. Now BSDI is also dead, its corpse turned over to yet another charnel house.

All major surveys show that *BSD has steadily declined in market share. *BSD is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If *BSD is to survive at all it will be among OS dilettante dabblers. *BSD continues to decay. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point in time. For all practical purposes, *BSD is dead.

Consumers...

[Anonymous Coward]

might reject Xbox 720.

Re:Consumers...

[Bucky24]

Doubtful. It'll be like Facebook's style changes. Everyone will complain, but will use it anyway (because all the cool people they want to hang out with use it) and eventually will stop complaining.

Yes I'm aware that Facebook is a "free" service and the xbox 720 will be something you'll have to buy, but honestly I don't think it will matter. People will buy it anyway.

Re:Bought fake Insluin, hope someone has some info

[Anonymous Coward]

Well last night I went to refil my insulin pump, and woke up nearly dead today. It was just water, or saline, or who knows.

It was probably dihydrogen monoxide. That stuff is found in cancer cells, and is the major component of acid rain.

This idea they have is worthless

[Howitzer86]

So in the future, lets say... 18 years from now, you won't be able to legally play that game that came out in 2013 because there are no more keys left and the servers are down. You might still have the console, and the disk, and perhaps you paid money for it, but with that game, with that anti-used-game protection, it's useless. And of course, going around the copy protection would be the only way to play it again, which is illegal.

Where is in modern times, you can play an 18 year old game without breaking any laws. Buy a Sega Genesis or a Saturn, buy the game, and so long as it isn't scratched up you can have a nostalgiagasm.

It stinks, won't stop anybody, and make criminals out of everybody, eventually. This idea is worthless.

Re:This idea they have is worthless

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't think that is exactly what they want?

Re:This idea they have is worthless

[Tsingi]

It stinks, won't stop anybody, and make criminals out of everybody, eventually. This idea is worthless.

We already have a situation where everyone is a criminal. The result of that is people have less respect for the law. And rightly so, if it is illegal for people to do the things that people do every day, then the law no longer serves society.
We know this to be true. The law serves those who own and control the government. The law serves 'artificial' persons. Real persons, can rot in jail.

Re:This idea they have is worthless

[St.Creed]

No. I think they just don't give a rat's ass about it. It's a side effect that doesn't matter to them.

Re:This idea they have is worthless

[Darinbob]

The idea has been around for awhile. This is the one and only goal of DRM for games. It is not there to prevent piracy, it is there to stop you selling your used games or even giving them away to friends or family. This has even been stated by some game producers. Everyone knows pirates will just get cracks to get the game anyway instead the legal owners of the games are prevented from using their legal rights to do what they want with the game.

This is the Steam model. Steam has a horde of dutiful fans who back them up; it's convenient for those who have super fast internet so they will defend the entire model of Steam just to keep that convenience. Some have even defended the DRM as only hurting places like GameStop or other sleazy resellers. But the owner's rights are being restricted and that should never be accepted just because of convenience. There are even worse places than Steam too with much more restrictive DRM (the Steam fans sometimes defend them as "it could be worse").

So this move is just taking the PC model and moving it to consoles. Trouble is no one is fighting against it. If book publishers had the technology to this 50 years ago so that no books would ever be in libraries or you could not donate your dog-eared classics to the local schools, the public would have been up in arms. But today the game players just roll over and take it.

Re:This idea they have is worthless

[Anonymous Coward]

And why do you think this is a problem for the publishers?

They don't WANT you playing the same games from ten years ago, or even last year's.

Instead, they want you to buy THIS year's game. And next year's, and the year after that.

Legacy titles are a drain on their bottom line. After all, they only get paid the one time, no matter how often you play it. It is therefore to their advantage to make it as difficult to play again in the future -either through authentication servers that can be shut down, DRM that causes compatibility issues with future operating systems, or only running on a specific hardware platform that is difficult or illegal to emulate.

Re:This idea they have is worthless

[ShakaUVM]

>>18 years from now, you won't be able to legally play that game

18 years? They've been shutting down Madden servers after 18 months.

This is EA's wet dream rent-seeking business plan - being able to force people to buy the same game over and over each year. Maximum profits for minimum cost.

Re:This idea they have is worthless

[Anonymous Coward]

"When games are outlawed, only outlaws will play games..."
wait uh minute....

Re:This idea they have is worthless

[Anonymous Coward]

or...
"When getting used games is outlawed, only outlaws will get used."
D'oh!

Re:This idea they have is worthless

[Kjella]

This is the Steam model. Steam has a horde of dutiful fans who back them up; it's convenient for those who have super fast internet so they will defend the entire model of Steam just to keep that convenience. Some have even defended the DRM as only hurting places like GameStop or other sleazy resellers. But the owner's rights are being restricted and that should never be accepted just because of convenience. There are even worse places than Steam too with much more restrictive DRM (the Steam fans sometimes defend them as "it could be worse").

With all the due respect, think of Steam like WoW without the monthly fees. If WoW were to shut down tomorrow it's not an argument that OMG you've spent 10000 hours building a character and money on games and expansions and fees and DLCs and buying shit on eBay. Oh there would be massive outrage but there's nothing legally binding them to provide service except prepaid game time and even there they could issue a refund for the future days you lost and nothing else. You don't have any recourse if they change the game in ways you don't like either. People should think of Steam the same way, but just because they do doesn't mean they don't want it. Millions of people play WoW after all. A lot of people will be happy if they just feel they got their entertainment value out of it as long as they feel confident that Steam will remain operational for as long as they need to get that entertainment value. Pay today, get your money's worth over the next 6 months and if Steam is there in 10 years or not? Not important.

Re:This idea they have is worthless

[Darinbob]

The problem is that while WoW is a multiplayer game that implicitly requires an online connection to a central server, Steam offers for sale single-person standalone games. And Steam also offers this for games purchased in retail stores! That is, you buy a package with a DVD and manual and end up being utterly unable to give that game away to someone else. I'd be a lot happier with the Steam model if they stuck entirely to online digital downloads only, and that game makers were allowed to use Steam with DRM for download while also having Steam-free versions in other formats.

But you bring up the other point. Too many game players today I think really are in the short-term mindset for games. Games are sort of like movies in that you watch it once in the theater and then you're done, no interest in older movies because the SFX aren't as good and the actors aren't as fashionable. But there are still gamers that want to treat games like books; you read it and then put it back on your shelf to be read again in the future.

Yes its everyone elses fault

[Osgeld]

that you the publishers spent millions of dollars on absolute garbage like mindjack and no one wants to buy it?

What SHOULD be dying is all the garbageware game publishers!

Re:Yes its everyone elses fault

[Bob the Super Hamste]

So do you include the makers of roster change 2012 in that list?

Re:Yes its everyone elses fault

[Osgeld]

what EA? hell yes, I haven't even bothered to look at their crap ever since Need for Speed turned into "wannabe tuner soap opera", and when I was at a buddies house looking at handegg 2010 I noticed on his big ass HD TV, that they never even bothered to update the HUD graphics from the previous generation, circles that looked like a C-64 drew them in lowres, missing pixels and the distinct resizing blurring, nevermind the game was about as responsive as a whack-a-mole machine.

Welcome

[Anonymous Coward]

FIRST I would like to welcome our new POST used game overlords.

One more turn of the screw

[Anonymous Coward]

We are be ratcheted.

and I Might Reject the Xbox 720

[kni52]

Actually i will if this is the way it will behave. The same goes for any console that does this kind of thing. I buy most of my games used, and keep my gaming systems for as long as they last. I stay away from any game that links to online services or verification in order to function properly. If i want a time-limited gaming experience, I'll visit one of the few arcades that are left (which I do whenever I'm near one).

Re:and I Might Reject the Xbox 720

[gameboyhippo]

That is until Madden's GENERIC FPS 2015 comes out! It'll be awesome. I hear this will be the first all DLC game! Plus you'll be entertained with ADVERTISING tailored to you! Or you could bypass all of that crap and just go with Nintendo, but we all know that Nintendoz iz 4 teh kiddiez!

Re:and I Might Reject the Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

If this happens it will be time for someone to develop an open gamin console. I'm sure we can come up with an open source design that will be expandable into the future and can solve all the problems with vendor lock in. Don't require all games to be forced through a network. Though a network could be built to offer it as a paid service for game devs that don't want to run there own actual servers. There might be room to get a lawyer to draw up some clauses to force people developing games on the platform to release the server code and keep them from practicing abusive practices against the gaming community. We could potentially have open upgradable gaming consoles with a much greater experience lower the barrier of entry into the game market by not having abusive fees and contracts to be able to release a game for the platform. Let the modders have at it with the things they'll probably make them better than the first batch anyway. Would need some good licenses to keep the big game companies from coming in and stealing the design reselling it under abusive terms. Likely some form of gpl like license requiring release of any modification to the design or software. Would have an open source operating system on them. This would also allow them to actually be an all in one solution for those without a huge budget for a computer by allowing them to run real software like web browsers that don't suck etc. All in all if the people making our video games think they are the only ones who can do so and think that we will sit around and take this kind of abuse they have another thing coming. We really should vote with our money and the collective talents of the open source movement to put those players out of business in this market and make the whole world a better safer and happier place for gamers.

Re:and I Might Reject the Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

yadda yadda yadda OPEN SORES

Dream on, fatass.

Not 100% the best way to go

[Anonymous Coward]

Limiting features based on not having a key is a better idea.

Such as limiting a certain number of weapons to be held, or certain number of AI bots in a game, or even limiting the game up to a certain point, removing side-quests, etc.
It would give more reason for people to want to buy the game first, or get a new key.

Getting rid of brick and mortar stores is a terrible thing for them and the industry, as is going entirely digital.
A lot of companies make a large chunk of money on limited editions and the like, such as coming with original artwork (or rather, scanned original artwork), some models, whatever.
Not only that, getting rid of them would be getting rid of a large chunk of your market because NO sane person is going to sit and download their double-digit gigabyte games.
What with bandwidth caps and slow speeds, and of course the triple digit numbers of people ALL DOING IT AT ONCE, yeah, come back in a couple decades when the backbones of most countries aren't made out of crap.
Better idea, CDN in each country. Each store signs up for a licence to have a hub installed in their store. This then downloads the games to them on release. People can come in with some memory device (SSD, HDD, flash, whatever), pop the game on, it gets copied, take it home, copy to console, done.
If they have no device, they rent a device from the store to take it home. (this could be an avenue for the stores to make a bit of money for those who have no memory storage)
You could also allow sync to be done via this method. They hop on over to the store, they upload their achievements and the like to the hub. It all gets uploaded at off-peak times at once.
Obviously there is a lot to workout with such a system, but it is better than telling your fans with no internet to beat it.
You now have the best of both worlds, people who can internet and people who don't have decent internet or none at all.

The fact that Steam, PSN, XBL all suffer bad times even with upper-average traffic, what makes you think it'd hold up against everyone ever on those services using it all at once?
They'd literally DDoS the poor servers, which I can't count how many times has happened when, say, a new huge game has came out on Steam. Switching locations like a madman to find something that will at least work, even if slow as hell.
They'd have to have an insane number of load-balancing at the front of the network to prevent it dying so hard.

note: I always buy brand new wherever I can.

Re:Not 100% the best way to go

[mlts]

Expanding on that idea, I would like to see a kiosk that has a book printing/book binding press, a small 3D printer, and a stack of blank media that can be programmed and automatically embossed with the game title. HP LightScribe media comes to mind for this.

This way, a publisher can not just have a cool game and printed media, but have it come with a manual, and perhaps some tokens made with the 3D printer as well. This might bring around a revitalization of the game industry. To boot, game manuals can stop being a four page flyer, but actual books with background and other stuff with the game, so they in themselves would be keepsakes.

As for DRM, the best I have seen is what Bioware did in NWN1 -- you need a CD key to use their multiplayer system (which is only fair because pirating a game is one thing, leeching time and CPU power is another.) The pirates won't be stopped, the used market is still unaffected, and well-written DLC will help make up the difference.

Re:Not 100% the best way to go

[TheSpoom]

Which significant segment of the video game buyer market doesn't have internet?

Re:Not 100% the best way to go

[Builder]

Huge parts of it outside america and Europe.

not the answer but the problem is still there

[MattDaye]

when at least half of your target audience will wait a few weeks/months to buy your game used from a store like Gamestop ruining your companies projected sales/income and it makes it difficult for you to get funding for games, its a problem. why bother making anything other than a game hoping to cash in on the COD market for sure income, then to make a niche new original game that wont have as many sales and more than half are still lost to store resellers. that said, when games have no replay value and after your 10-20 hours of gameplay its just a 50-70 dollar paper weight on your shelf you wonder why you bothered to buy it.

Re:not the answer but the problem is still there

[Anonymous Coward]

If your game is littering the used store shelves a few weeks after launch, maybe it wasn't worth the $60 retail price?

Maybe if you released a solid game and players didn't have to wait weeks or months after launch for you to patch it. Or it was cleaver, original and re-playable.. It wouldn't be so widely available.

Maybe if game stores and/or game companies had a reasonable return policy we wouldn't be buying a game, deciding it's #$%^& 2 hours later, and trading it in.

Maybe if the games industry wasn't strong arming review sites for positive reviews, players might have a reasonable expectation about your game, and wouldn't feel cheated about blowing $60 on it.

The large gaming companies want everything their way. It's not going to happen.

Re:not the answer but the problem is still there

[Anomalyst]

when at least half of your target audience will wait a few weeks/months to buy your game used

If your marketdroids havent learned to factor this into their projections, you are paying them WAY too much money.

Re:not the answer but the problem is still there

[MattDaye]

Its true that currently the 'used game' affect is probably very predictable. However for non triple-A developers I'm going to imagine between pirating and used-games there is an increasing amount of loss built in as an overhead for creating and selling a game. I am not advocating any crazy drastic measures, just saying that it is an issue that developers are trying to deal. And at the same time companies like Gamestop are profiting off of because they get to keep all the profits of the Selling-Buying-Reselling of used games and it creates a ring of money completly cutoff from the developers. That said many games are waaay too expensive new on release. But maybe if they didnt need to recoup these losses the original price wouldnt need to be so steep.

What about game rentals?

[lazycam]

I know it's a small part of their business, but how will this decision affect a rental company like RedBox. The other day I noticed they rented out titles like Skyrim and Call of Duty. Moreover, what about companies like Gamefly, whose entire business model is based on the ability to share titles? Along with regular customers, I imagine these companies will not go down without a fight.

Re:What about game rentals?

[Anonymous Coward]

Online downloads! Pop onto xbox live, pay MS money to play the game for a day or two and MS splits the money with the game's dev.

Re:What about game rentals?

[Anonymous Coward]

Since a majority of kids games are crap we always rent first. No rental, no sale, ever.

Re:What about game rentals?

[stpitner]

I completely agree with this. Most of the time I ONLY rent, although I'll occasionally pull the trigger on a Greatest Hit $20 new title. If they try to force you to always have to buy new, the price point HAS to be less. However, if the system does not allow rentals at all I will just simply not buy the system. If all of the systems go that way I guess I'm done playing on new systems and will just keep playing on what I have. If they ever realize that they were idiots and change it up then I'll consider going back. There is always a second hand market out there for items beyond rentals, used game stores, and online reselling. There's always people with garage sales, selling at flea markets, or some other way to sell things second hand. Preventing people to sell their old stuff in order to go buy new stuff is just going to turn into people never buying new stuff.

Games for Players

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe that Valve have the right idea in that when someone buys the game, it is theirs. It doesn't belong to a specific console or computer but instead is allocated to them as a person so they can install it where they like but only they can feasibly play it (of course other people can use the account but only one computer can be logged in at a time.) It still seems by far the most superior system, to my mind.

The is a speculative non-story

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdot = stagnant

Not for me !

[Anonymous Coward]

If it is, i'm not buying this !

I don't really care about used game since i rarely buy one but if the Xbox broke down, that means that all your game become useless if it won't work on a new console.

Killing Used Games Kill Sales of New Games

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

KIlling the used game market is going to backfire because the sale of used games subsidizes the purchase of new games. A lot of people make the calculation that they can buy a ~$50 game, play it until they are tired of it and then sell it for ~$20 - making the effective price only $30.

If the publishers make it impossible to resell that game, that amounts to nearly a doubling of the price for a new game and thus a lot less people will be able to afford it. These game publishers should be care what they wish for.

Re:Killing Used Games Kill Sales of New Games

[Anonymous Coward]

Not really, what if they just sell the new games for $30? Without used games, they should sell more and might actually make more money. I realize there is a snowball's chance in hell that this actually happens, but if they reduce utility and price, I am fine with it. They don't care much about used games passed between people, they only care that Gamestop makes 90% of its money on marking up Used Games and that is the money they are after.

Re:Killing Used Games Kill Sales of New Games

[Anonymous Coward]

No one cares. Stop your crying.

Re:Killing Used Games Kill Sales of New Games

[stewbee]

Along similar lines, I bought a PS3 several years after the initial release. I think that I have only paid for one new release out of the 15 games or so that I have. Everything else I have bought has either been used or already a 'Greatest Hits' release, so I pretty much never pay the full price. I imagine if they went to this model of no resale, then there would be several other people like me who would wait until the prices dropped before buying.

Re:Killing Used Games Kill Sales of New Games

[drinkypoo]

I just want to add weight to this by stating that I'm one of those people. And I do rant endlessly to attempt to scare people away from games that crap on you. I go out of my way to make sure people know about my problems with Steam, for example. I do this because I like First Sale law, and Steam shits on it.

Re:Killing Used Games Kill Sales of New Games

[Anonymous Coward]

Or people just wait until it is 5 bucks in the bin...

I am waiting a little bit on the next gen. This gen the only ones that didnt act like douchebags was Nintendo.

The red ring thing sucked. Think I will wait on quality this time... BRILLIANT who cares people will buy 3-4 of them just to play the 10-20 games they bought. OH and next gen lets tie it to the device so that way when it goes TU we can sell them their games again!

PS3 lets release it before its done OH and yank features out over the lifetime... BRILLIANT. Lets give less value!

I stood in many a line to get the thing that day. I will wait a year or so this time... Got burned twice this time it sucked :(.

IGN and SOPA

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry to be off-topic, but I hope my fellow slashdotters avoid the IGN link as IGN's parent company, News Corporation, is a proponent of SOPA (I know it's been tabled, but the company has already put in their support for the legislation, which is bad enough in my opinion).

Where there is a will. There is a way!

[Lashat]

Somewhat along the same lines of an earlier post claiming that piracy will solve this issue.

I agree that if someone wants to play the game in 18 years. They will play the game. Emulators rule. I love that MAME exists and give me strolls down memory lane without sucking quarters out of my pocket in that stuffy, over-heated, converted room behind the Mini-Golf rental shack.
http://mamedev.org/legal.html

Read their "Legal" section if you think that "piracy" is the only solution.

So it's like steam and the games are tied to you?

[Anonymous Coward]

So it's like steam and the games are tied to you?

As long as it let's you go over to other peoples Xbox and play as guest like you can with steam then it may be ok.

How heavily are PC games discounted?

[tepples]

heavily discounted digital download titles on the PC, which is something I've yet to see matched on the console side.

Are PC games typically discounted such that someone can buy four copies of the PC game for the price of one copy of a console game? Because that's what it would take to make up for the difference in the multiplayer paradigm between the two markets.

Re:How heavily are PC games discounted?

[chispito]

Are PC games typically discounted such that someone can buy four copies of the PC game for the price of one copy of a console game? Because that's what it would take to make up for the difference in the multiplayer paradigm between the two markets.

Often, yes.

Dungeon Defenders 4-pack http://store.steampowered.com/app/65800/
Left 4 Dead 2 4-pack http://store.steampowered.com/app/550/

Besides, dedicated screens are much more enjoyable for most games.

Re:How heavily are PC games discounted?

[Anonymous Coward]

So many console games these days have 2-player or even no local multiplayer at all. The Wii is the last haven for multiplayer.

Re:How heavily are PC games discounted?

[trdrstv]

heavily discounted digital download titles on the PC, which is something I've yet to see matched on the console side.

Are PC games typically discounted such that someone can buy four copies of the PC game for the price of one copy of a console game? Because that's what it would take to make up for the difference in the multiplayer paradigm between the two markets.

Yeah, pretty much. Steam Sells "4 packs" of a lot of multiplayer games where you can buy 3 copies and get 1 free. This is especially awesome when that game goes on sale. For Example this Christmas Left 4 Dead 2 was 75% off so you could either buy the game for $5 instead of $20, or a 4 pack for $15 and gift the rest. Of course once activated you can't trade /loan/ re-gift a steam game but given the price I'm ok with that.

Death of xbox 720 inevitable

[Culture20]

There are scores of people who will not buy a new game unless they can resell it. There are also scores of people who will only buy used games. Both of these groups will not buy a new gaming console if they can not take part in the used game market.

Re:Death of xbox 720 inevitable

[Anonymous Coward]

Scores, you say? Well, shit, the 720 is surely doomed if scores of people won't buy it! That's, like, a hundred people!

Any game?

[tepples]

you can find any game anywhere in a B&M or online anytime.

Where can I find a lawfully made copy of Earthbound? Nintendo refuses to release it on Virtual Console. Or are you referring only to current-generation games?

Re:Any game?

[Anonymous Coward]

Earthbound is not hard to find, it's just very popular.

Is this really happening?

[Anonymous Coward]

SOPA, PIPA(which have only been delayed to calm the media), ACTA and now this. The new decade doesn't seem like it will be a good one for humanity at all. I wonder what's next.

This is not a bad thing.

[Anonymous Coward]

It just solidifies the future of PC gaming.

Extend this policy to players as well . . .

[PolygamousRanchKid]

"This is NOT a new player. In order to play this game, please replace the current player with a new one, and start again."

"This system does NOT accept used players."

this is what you get with console vendor lock-in

[Dan667]

why people continue to complain when they know that the console maker is going to do stuff like this makes no sense. You are accepting you don't even own your console when you buy it.

ignore the market eh?

[DaveGod]

I hope they realise the number of gamers for whom selling used finances their buying new. Just like the car market, except there manufacturers absolutely covet the used car market. Many of the used buyers are kids who don't have the money to buy new games except at birthdays etc., or casual gamers who would never pay new prices. I note that the article refers to PC games generally being one-time use, I respond noting PC game pricing for brand-new games is almost always cheaper than used console games, quite often substantially cheaper. Even then, "one time use" keys used to be only relevant to multiplayer, single worked fine. Even now DRM generally allows for multiple machine installs. Only online downloads are locked to one account.

Similar happens with the consoles themselves too. Almost every time I upgraded a console generation I sold my old one + games to finance the new. MS/Sony/Ninty get an early adopter whilst also selling games to someone on the older gen.

The problem with the used market is not the used market, it is the margins taken by the retailers. If you sell a game for $10 and store then sells it for $30, they extract $20 from the used-game economy.

Incorporate

[PPH]

Create a corporation*, purchase the XBox and games through the corporation. When you want to sell, you transfer the equity in the corporation to the new owner. The h/w and s/w never change hands.

Watch Microsoft fight a couple of hundred years of corporate law. Sit back. Laugh.

*Yeah, I know. This will be prohibitively expensive for something like a couple of games.

Re:Incorporate

[Anonymous Coward]

In the UK you can create a limited company for £14 (about $20). You'll probably have to pay a similar amount to change the company ownership details. That's still less than half the cost of a premium game. Wrap a couple of games in your corporation and it's looking profitable.

Re:Incorporate

[sourcerror]

But but but corporations aren't people! Except when it benefits me.

Re:Incorporate

[Anonymous Coward]

Just think how many millions of employees of your company can be given access to the company's subsidised vehicle pool.

Re:Incorporate

[Anonymous Coward]

You kid, but intend to do pretty much that when I get a PS3. Any DLC I buy will be on separate accounts so I can sell the whole account later. If I were you I wouldn't tie my Starcraft II and Diablo 3 identities together.

Re:Incorporate

[Anonymous Coward]

That actually wouldn't be all that expensive. Few hundred bucks, including the games.

Re:Incorporate

[Issarlk]

So you sell the game to some guy. He puts it in his xbox 720 which promptly refuses it, and then what?
Or are you suggesting to buy an xbox with each game, to sell it with the game to the next owner?

Re:Incorporate

[PPH]

So I buy an Xbox and a bunch of games. But then I buy a new Xbox (maybe the old one died out of warranty or I just want one for each TV set) and my games refuse to run on the new one.

I'd expect the games to be locked to some sort of logon ID, not the hardware. You sell the ID with the games.

Arcade suicide batteries

[tepples]

You appear to have never heard of a suicide battery. As I understand it, it's fairly common for some kinds of arcade games to lose their programming after several years because essential decryption keys are stored in battery-backed SRAM.

Households with multiple gamers

[tepples]

of course other people can use the account but only one computer can be logged in at a time

Which hurts households with multiple gamers. On consoles, you don't need to buy four copies of (say) Super Smash Bros. Brawl to play with four players.

Re:Households with multiple gamers

[lgw]

But if 6 months later, Super Smash Bro Brawl is sitll $60 for consoles, but there's a one-day sale for $6 on Steam, you're still well ahead buying 4 copies (and those numbers aren't all that uncommon).

Same for CDs

[Anonymous Coward]

I haven't bought a new CD (music album) in about 10 years. In that time, however, I have bought over 100 used CDs, averaging about $5 each, from online stores like secondspin.com. I simply unpack them, record each album to my FLAC archive, and put the disc/inserts away for storage. I keep a list of CDs I might want to buy and about twice a year I order a new batch of 10-15 albums. This has proven to be a great way of acquiring new music, and the best part is that I get the actual physical albums. I don't even care if they have a few scratches (most don't), as long as they record perfectly.

In conclusion, I feel damn good about sticking it to a corrupt industry backed by a corrupt government.

Re:Same for CDs

[Kolisar]

There is a difference with CD though. Someone can buy a CD, rip it to their computer and then sell it. They retain the continued use of the artist's work while not paying the full price. Then, when the next person purchases the used CD, they also are able to enjoy the result of the artist's work, but the artist does not get compensated again. If the first person listened to the CD, and deleted all digital or other copies prior to selling, it would not be an issue.

Games, on the other hand, seem to require the original disc, despite being installed on the hard drive, and therefore selling the disc prevents the game from being used on more than one system.

I am certainly not in favor of corrupt industries, but I feel that CDs are totally different in the "used media" space than games, due to the possibility of multiple simultaneous use from one disc.

Re:Same for CDs

[Pentium100]

Or, in other words:
If you want to pirate a game, there are easier/cheaper ways to do it than buying a game new, making a copy and selling the game as used. You can just go to the pirate bay.

Re:Same for CDs

[Anonymous Coward]

I havent paid at all. As in Finland, it is legal to do a privat copies with your family or best friends. You can make backups even with CD's what has DRM. But you are only allowed to make 10 copies, and if the original is stolen/destroyed, you need to destroy the copies as well. And you can not distribute the copies to any one else.

Thats why empty CD/DVD and even external HDDs has a small feed what goes for Teosto what is same as RIAA or MPAA. It is about 10 cents per DVD, when you buy a 10 DVD, you pay from it about 5 euro so about 1 euro goes for Teosto.
Every privat user needs to pay that, but if you have a company, you can get a license to buy without that 10 cent payment if you just agree that you dont use it privat copy at all.

But what you get with that 10 cents per DVD or CD?

Well, you can legally buy a CD or DVD with your friend from store, even you and your 9 friends and make a 9 copies of the disk and one gets the original. The copies can be empty CD's OR they can be MP3 or other versions. But they can not make other copies from them. So they need to move the files.
But with that, 10 friends can pay from 15 euros CD only 1.5 euros each... So everyone gets -90% discounts every CD. If you have just 5 friends, it is only -80%

But, you dont need to buy the CD. Legally you can borrow that CD from library and make a own personal copy for yourself. You can not do more than single copy. But you get the CD free. You can do that for music and movies. Even for books if wanted.
And you dont pay anything about library card.

But most young people dont use that but they just whine about how high the prices are and how they dont want to pay. While they could just get all their wanted music free just by waiting a week or two. Or buying them with friends and making copies. Even with one good friend, the price is -50% you get third and it is -66%. You get the point.

So, in Finland, you can buy second hand music or movies, or you can buy with friends and drop everyones costs, or you can get them free from library.

And it is perfectly legal.

And people whine how they need to pay about 5-8 euros per HDD, depending is it under 100 gigabytes or over 1 terabytes. As with that payment they could easily get hundreds if not thousands movies and music songs free. But they whine how thints are expensive. And even pirateparty is lying to people that privat copying isn't legal, while it really is. As pirateparty wants to get supporters and they are ready to lie people about the copyright law, what most people have not even red.

I dont know about USA or other must stricly twisted copyright countries, but I really love when private copying is allowed in copyright law.... As it really can give savings per year for about thousands euros, as much as you just can gather the media legally.

Re:Same for CDs

[Anonymous Coward]

You see that's where you have it in reverse.

It's the corrupt industries that use the corrupt the state as their tool for control, not the otherway around.

Re:Same for CDs

[Anonymous Coward]

ever hear of a NO CD crack?

Re:Same for CDs

[N1AK]

Ignorance is bliss proven nicely there. If you're buying used CDs then someone bought those CDs. When they sold them they likely bought more new CDs. By buying new CDs you're helping maintain demand and thus pricing for the market, ergo you are funding new CD sales. A car analogy fits nicely. When someone buys a 4 year old car, they are putting money into a pot that is very likely going to be used to buy a new car.

Re:Same for CDs

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you also a fan of the broken window fallacy?

Cause & Effect

[Anonymous Coward]

I might reject the Xbox 720.

Next, ban old games

[residieu]

Next up. Madden 2014 will stop working when Madden 2015 is released. People who keep playing old games are picking the pockets of the developers. They're still playing old games when they could be buying the new versions and playing those.

Re:Next, ban old games

[MozeeToby]

Wasn't there talk a while back about Madden moving over to a subscription model? Which would be exactly what you describe.

Re:Next, ban old games

[Anonymous Coward]

People who keep playing old games are picking the pockets of the developers.

Oh ho ho maaannnn! I lol'd... ooooohh boy oh boy, did I lol at that one.

Re:Next, ban old games

[Anonymous Coward]

Stop giving them ideas!

Re:Next, ban old games

[TheAmazingRyRy]

This isn't picking the pocket of developers. Why should I buy the new version if I'm perfectly happy with the old one?

Re:Next, ban old games

[nahdude812]

When this happens, I'm coming to find you for planting the idea in their heads.

Re:Next, ban old games

[Anonymous Coward]

They already drop online support for last year's Madden, and you can't play online without a single-use CD key, effectively eliminating the used market for Madden.

Re:Next, ban old games

[pscottdv]

People who keep playing old games are picking the pockets of the developers. They're still playing old games when they could be buying the new versions and playing those.

The problem is bigger than that. Some people don't even PLAY video games! They're picking the pockets of the developers AND the console makers!

Re:Next, ban old games

[Anonymous Coward]

whoosh!

Potential

[Anonymous Coward]

This has the potential to completely alienate users but it also have the potential to be a useful platform.

In other words, they need to make this exactly like Steam. With steam, you can not resale games either but the other services steam offers more than make up for it.

With Steam, I can go to a friend's house and log in with my account to download and show them a game. The donwload is also pretty fast in most cases.
With Steam, the price is right. New titles cost full price but they have so many promotions that I buy most of my games under $10. Oh and steam is also FREE.

I got a feeling that with Microsoft we will get games tied to your Xbox hardware instead of your account, or maybe require that hardware key I am reading about. They probably offer no offline play because, you know, this is only for pirates. Full prices forever, barely any promotions and a monthly fee on top of all that.

People say console gaming is cheaper than PC gaming but that's far from true if you don't consider used games resales. If you don't buy used, it cost a lot more to game on console than on a PC.

Used game sales = new game sales

[billcopc]

How can these corporate dunces not understand that the used game market is what fuels new game sales ?

On the few occasions where I've sold a game, in my case it's because I didn't like it, and wanted to free up those funds to buy something else. My most recent example was last year's Splinter Cell game (which I dubbed "Gears of Splinter Cell"). I spent $60 on it, didn't like it, sold it to someone else for $45 or so. Then I turned around and spent another $70 on Black Ops. So far, the game industry has made $130.

If I were unable to sell the game, due to arbitrary restrictions enforced by the platform, the other guy would not have gotten his hands on my unloved Splinter Cell, and I would have had $45 less to spend on my next game. Restricting that private sale then directly results in one less retail sale.

Now, I only rarely sell games. I'm more of a collector, and I like to revisit old games every few years. I can afford it, so I'm not the typical used-game-market kind of guy. A lot of my friends are, though, and they rarely have more than 4-5 games in their possession at any given time. They beat one, sell/trade it, get a new one. That's the key factor: they keep buying new ones with the money from used sales!

The people who are buying used games ? They're not even on the radar. $70 for a video game is fucking expensive, considering most modern titles are hastily-polished turds. About half gamer guys I know in the 25-35 age range are broke asses, working retail jobs and having less than $200 left after rent and necessities. The used market is the only way they can afford any games, so they may not contribute directly to the game industry's bottom line, but it keeps them addicted. How often have I heard these guys go "Man when I get a 2nd job I am so buying a PS3"... but kill off the used game market and these folks will find other hobbies, and you lose them as a customer for life!

Re:Used game sales = new game sales

[Anonymous Coward]

How stupid do you think these people are? Their entire business is selling games, they have trained professionals analyzing this. While you are just some nerd wasting time on Slashdot...of course they've considered the first idea that came to your mind.

Obviously, if they do this sort of plan, it will be done with the full understanding that some people will be less likely to buy the game because of the lack of re-sale. However, the calculation would be that this decrease in sales would be more than made up for by the increase in sales if people aren't just buying used copies at Gamestop.

Anyway, nothing has been planned, it's just random speculation. Personally I buy mostly used games, but game prices often dip to $20 after a year and I'm happy with that as well.

Re:Used game sales = new game sales

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

err you do realize this is just WILD speculation right?

Re:Used game sales = new game sales

[billcopc]

If, by "trained professionals" you mean suit-warmers with an MBA, you're probably right.

FACT: Most people have fixed budgets for entertainment.

Implementing countermeasures to restrict used game sales is never going to change that fact. If I have $35 and you want $70 for a game, I can't buy your game. No amount of corporate posturing is going to change that. What it *will* do is drive more people to alternatives, whether that means a modded console with copied games, or different platform/hobby altogether.

Re:Used game sales = new game sales

[Anonymous Coward]

People with MBA and corporate experience know more about business than random nerds on Slashdot (where the iPod will never match the Nomad).

Anyway, no fucking shit people will buy less of an expensive item. You make these grand pronouncements that are trivial and obvious. Fine, nothing wrong with that, but claiming the corporate big-wigs don't have your level of insight is completely deluded.

Re:Used game sales = new game sales

[drinkypoo]

What it *will* do is drive more people to alternatives, whether that means a modded console with copied games, or different platform/hobby altogether.

Yep. For the $600 that it costs to buy a console, a couple controllers, and a couple games, you can build a quadcopter, or buy a pretty good used bike, or buy a fucking shopsmith for that matter, I've seen them for as little as $350 with some tooling. The more the game industry treats me like a criminal the less I spend on games and the more I spend on driving, or shooting, or something else with more environmental impact, so this is just another failure of unbounded capitalism.

Will be irrelevant as physical media withers away

[buddahfool]

I play games often, but it is always digital downloads when they go on sale on Steam. It server the same function as used games (pick up older game a few months after launch for cheap) but the money goes to the developers. This hurts used game retailers trying to sustain their shrinking business model, gamers without internet connections, and lovers of physical media.

yes...

[Anonymous Coward]

and, i may reject xbox 720.

aerogel???

[ganjadude]

aerogel?? you were watching modern marvels this morning werent you?

So replacing Hardware = Re-Buy librairy ?

[Anonymous Coward]

In my life I've gone through :
3 PS2
2 xBox
2 PS3
All died of overuse/bad hardware.
I've just replaced my old Xbox360 for a slim one.

I'm I to understand that if that policy had been in place I would have had to buy back (at premium price) my whole librairy of games each time I replaced one of my consoles ?

No more rental either ?

Re:So replacing Hardware = Re-Buy librairy ?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know what you do with your consoles, but all my consoles (I had almost all of them since the 8bits NES) are still working flawlessly.

I stopped playing games

[Anonymous Coward]

Some years ago when pay-DLC and subscriptions became the norm, I just stopped playing games. My quality of life has improved as a result. Surely more people will follow a similar path once gaming becomes too annoying for them, just as it did for me.

Easy fix...

[Anonymous Coward]

Any game that doesn't allow full re-play by another person... Don't buy them. Period.
Don't do the "In" game. Don't buy the "latest and greatest".
Let them know why you aren't buying them.

I have to say my wallet is thicker and I can do more productive things with my time without them.

Fuck the game industry if they won't allow re-sale or fully functional used copies.

Used Users Might Reject Xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

...because DRM price gouging is not the game we usually intend on playing when we pay good money for these stupid, stupid locked-in consoles.

Then I will reject the Xbox 720.

[SamuraiHoedown]

And I thought Sony could be bad...

I've already had my last-straw moment..

[oh-dark-thirty]

..when I purchased NHL 11 used for my 360, and didn't realize until I started playing that it required a $10 online pass for multiplayer. Nope, not gonna do it, and I would urge anyone with an ounce of sense to reject that model as well. EA doesn't even maintain servers for most of their current-gen games, they use P2P. The only thing they physically host are stats and whatnot, so it costs them very little to maintain; the bandwidth and storage requirements are minimized to a huge degree.

MS: still thoroughly evil

[Teckla]

Microsoft is still impressively thoroughly evil. This is just more of the same.

You can't even stream Netflix with your Xbox 360 without subscribing to Xbox Live.

There is no good reason for this, except Microsoft being greedy, evil bastards.

Re:MS: still thoroughly evil

[StormReaver]

While I agree that Microsoft always has been, is, and always will be evil; who's more to blame: Microsoft, or the idiot who buys the product knowing the company is evil?

Re:MS: still thoroughly evil

[AuralityKev]

You know, that actually is the only reason I still have a Live subscription. That, and they cripple some .avi playback codecs that wreck streaming from my Tversity box.

Replacement Consoles

[Agent0013]

I think they are going to hurt their sales of consoles also. If an out-of-warantee Xbox 720 breaks, some people will just buy a new one. If all of your old games won't work on it, then there is no point. Perhaps they will get theirs fixed instead. But if it is beyond repair, I think many people would write off that console and not buy another or any other games for it, and would probably steer clear of the next generation of that console also. You can only screw people over soo far before they get wise to it.

Re:Replacement Consoles

[TheAmazingRyRy]

Exactly what I was thinking. Look at how many 360s had RROD. If the 720 has some bad design issue like that, will they make people pay for their games twice?

Re:Replacement Consoles

[Ash Vince]

I think they are going to hurt their sales of consoles also. If an out-of-warantee Xbox 720 breaks, some people will just buy a new one. If all of your old games won't work on it, then there is no point. Perhaps they will get theirs fixed instead. But if it is beyond repair, I think many people would write off that console and not buy another or any other games for it, and would probably steer clear of the next generation of that console also. You can only screw people over soo far before they get wise to it.

This is a trivially easy thing to solve. The games will be bound to a users account, not the console. Even on the 360 you have to sign in to play and have your progress recorded so most users have xbox live accounts already.

If my xbox died tomorrow I would buy a new one then just set the new one up to access my old account.

Should be illegal !!

[fish_in_the_c]

Attempting to keep control of a product you sell and prevent it's resale is bad for the economy and should be illegal, as it destroys whole ecosystems of commerce.

I'm sure cloth retailers would love to put used cloths stores out of business.
Do you think it would work if they started including a license with their cloth that required the item to be returned to them and not resold? I mean , just because you pay for it , is no excuse to think you own it or have the right to modify it , right?

How about care manufactures, do you think people would put up with having to sign a license agreement for that required you to always have your car serviced at the dealership and return it to the dealer rather then discard it so as to protect 'their engineering' .
Not that they haven't tired, there is all kinds of poor engineering that has cost car companies lots of rep and lots of money , in attempts to prevent people from fixing things themselves. Now with all the computers and key fobs etc they are starting to finally have some success. That should also be illegal.

Re:Should be illegal !!

[Anonymous Coward]

"Attempting to keep control of a product you sell and prevent it's resale is bad for the economy and should be illegal, as it destroys whole ecosystems of commerce."

Well there IS the first sale doctrine that pretty much prevents forbidding of resale. You can blame copyright cartels in the computer software industry for lobbying exceptions to it into the law.

Even with Sony trying to claim PS3 titles are the same as computer titles as far as reselling is suppose to be concerned, on the PS3 you still need the disc to play it - installed or not.

Re:Should be illegal !!

[Anonymous Coward]

Cars do have that arrangement. It's called a lease.

Re:Should be illegal !!

[fish_in_the_c]

I don't know anybody who leases a car, I guess somebody must somewhere because I keep hearing about it.
But leasing something is NOT owning it. And that is the difference. If I lease it from you, when it breaks down , YOU take it back and fix it , I just lease a different one. Hardware manufactures do leases as well, but that is not the model the XBox or software is using. If software is leased, rather then sold, then you have to actually sign a rental agreement for it.

The end of my game buying days

[Anonymous Coward]

This is one of the large reasons why the 360 and the games I have bought for it will be the last legally purchased games I will ever buy. After buying 2 used EA titles only to find I could not play multiplayer, a large component of either game, and am harassed every time I turn on the game to "buy an online pass", I have lost all respect for game companies. I have a little respect for Valve, but after the issues with Steam and their growing trend towards "pay to win", I don't believe I have any reason to give them my hard earned cash anyhow. I bought Portal 2, but that will be the last game from them as well. HL2: Episode 3 is just a slap in the face at this point and if it ever does get released, I fail to see why I should pay $60 for something I have been waiting to be released for many years.

Re:The end of my game buying days

[geekprime]

Pay to win on steam? Where? You can craft anything you can buy in tf2, perhaps not the day it comes out but soon thereafter. Also in a team based game, a single player having an uber-weapon does not assure his team of victory.

Three words:

[Anonymous Coward]

First Sale Doctrine.

How is it that these companies who block the FSD are not violating the law?

Microsoft may have finally found a way...

[geekprime]

Microsoft may have finally found a way to completely kill off console gaming.

Would Microsoft Aim A Gun At Its Foot?

[organgtool]

I know this is just speculation, but I couldn't think of a better way for Microsoft to help Sony regain some marketshare. As for me, I love my XBox 360 and I own about 15 games - more than half of them purchased new, but if Microsoft did this with its next-gen console, I would certainly steer clear of it. And I couldn't see myself ever giving money to Sony again, so that means I would either keep playing my old games and try to max out my achievements, or relegate my game playing to my phone.

Re:Would Microsoft Aim A Gun At Its Foot?

[kesuki]

so soon we forget http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11NOblvuEpU
the commercial is like microsoft shooting itself in the foot.

Its up to you

[Anonymous Coward]

If this become true, how about i campain in the social networks, alerting everybody to not buy the console?
Will the consumer be wise enough to do this?

So begins next gen feature speculation...

[TheSkepticalOptimist]

Standard Template:

Console _console_name_ to have some _feature_pulled_from_ass_ that is guaranteed we won't like.

Then a barrage of arguments defending and lamenting _feature_pulled_from_ass_ without anyone doing the least amount of investigation as to whether the source is reliable or feature would ever exist.

Followed by my smart ass comment to point this out.

Not too likely

[DynamoJoe]

Remember how many 360s died in their first year. Now imagine the customer service hassles (and class-action lawsuit) for all the users inconvenienced when their 720 red-rings and takes all their legal, registered games with it.

Re:Not too likely

[Dutch Gun]

Any such system would allow migration of licenses. This is already a feature of the Xbox for things like Xbox Arcade titles.

That being said, I tend to agree with your conclusion if not your reasons. I think MS can't afford to piss off it's customers who like to sell used games. The console race is still too close for that.

Re:Not too likely

[Jiro]

Remember, they changed the EULA so that you are not allowed a class action lawsuit.

Xbox 720 Might Reject Used Games

[Anonymous Coward]

Users Might Reject Xbox 720

Dear IP holders

[Nanosphere]

If we can't sell used IP, you can't sell "used" stock shares.

Where's your righteous ideology now?

PC

[Anonymous Coward]

Looks like it's back to the PC for me!

No thanks

[Anonymous Coward]

I stopped buying games after the GC/PS2/NDS because I didn't want:

- DRM ruining everything (e.g. used game control/restriction)
- DLC and micropayments
- Casual shovelware crap

I thought I'd be playing video games my whole life, but I can't support a business model which fucks over the customer in order to attain the most amount of profit as humanly possible.

Most importantly, money invested in video games is worthless. When a publisher doesn't support a game it will never work again (Phantasy Star Online, anyone?). The current trend is to make video games disposable. Just looks at how the Vita supports PSP games -- you have to re-buy games you already bought just to play them.

The video game industry is now in the disposable razor industry. No thanks. I've already spent tons of money on video games, and I still HAVE and most importantly -- OWN -- everything I've bought.

Anyone who's been buying games as of late has nothing. Sure you get fun games, but it's a fleeting thing and you'll have never it again within a few years of the launch date.

Think you guys are mostly wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you guys are mostly wrong. I strongly suspect (but admit I nothing to back this up with) that the game industry is mostly supported by a group of people ages 12-25, and of that mostly male. I doubt very much that that age group will complain enough to change anything. And by complain I mean any sort of complaint (letters, boycotts, etc). Just look at DRM, and having to have a Steam account to play games (or whatever company you are buying from). I personally will not buy a single game that has DRM, requires an internet connection to play single-player (the mode I most frequently play), limits my number of installs/hardware changes, or any other limitation, but the gaming industry hasn't stopped doing it. Why? Because the people who buy games WANT games, and the only way to get them is to bow down to the producer or not buy games at all. Realistically speaking, not enough people will refuse to buy the DRM ridden games to stop the companies from putting DRM in them, just as not enough people will stop buying games cause they can't resell it or play a used copy online to make the companies stop preventing reselling.

Re:Bought fake Insluin, hope someone has some info

[Anonymous Coward]

The mono part isn't necessary. You're not going to get anything but a single oxygen atom to bond with two hydrogen atoms. Take a fucking chemistry class.

The joke isn't clever when the mono is on there.

So, they killed the consoles indeed!

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll not buy anymore anything that puts limits to me and my enjoyment. End of story. So, put the 720 where the sun doesn't reach.

Re:Bought fake Insluin, hope someone has some info

[Anonymous Coward]

It's also dangerously addictive. After being exposed only once, a person can survive being deprived of it for just a few days before dying from withdrawal symptoms. So far nobody has ever been successfully weaned off dihydrogen monoxide.

Xbox 1080 SE LTD

[RMingin]

Let me show you the future:

You go to the store, you buy a "game". You go home and open the green plastic box, and take out your little slips of paper. You slowly and laboriously enter a long alphanumeric code. Your console blinks some LEDs and talks to MS. Your console puts a light show on your TV and tells you about the ABSOLUTELY BADASS game you just "bought". An hour or two later, it's done downloading and you can play.

There is no used game market, and don't buy games grey market, or you'll get all your games revoked!

Re:Xbox 1080 SE LTD

[mjwx]

You go to the store, you buy a "game". You go home and open the green plastic box, and take out your little slips of paper. You slowly and laboriously enter a long alphanumeric code. Your console blinks some LEDs and talks to MS. Your console puts a light show on your TV and tells you about the ABSOLUTELY BADASS game you just "bought". An hour or two later, it's done downloading and you can play.

Dave Xbox, play the game.
Xbox 1440 I'm sorry Dave, I cannot authorise this game.
Dave Why cant you play the game Xbox,
Xbox 1440 Because Microsoft said you're a pirate Dave.
Dave I'm not a pirate Xbox, you've never been modded.
Xbox 1440 I know that Dave.
Dave So why cant you play the game
Xbox 1440 Because Microsoft said you're a pirate Dave.
Dave Open the CD bay doors
Xbox 1440 I'm sorry Dave, I cant do that.

Think about it, the RROD is already half way to looking like HAL.

Or you could just wait 6 months

[Anonymous Coward]

And get the game on Platinum Hits or whatever and actually pay the developer money instead of lining game stops pockets and pay 1/2 price. Win for everyone but gamestop. But no, gotta have it launch day! Well then, pay the price. People wait for TV to go streaming and books to go paperback, why can't you wait for the video game? If everyone pirated it or bought it used the game won't get made.

This is a serious assault on the consumer

[erroneus]

Games are expensive. Many people feel they can buy games because they will have some re-sale value after the fact. But with being stripped of any resale value, I have to wonder if this will result in more "careful consumerism." But in the end, we are seeing consumers stripped of their rights when they buy things. (Yes, I know they are technically 'redefining' what consumers are buying and what their rights are, but the net effect is the same.)

This kind of abuse simply needs to be outlawed. If someone buys a game in physical form, there should be no way to restrict their use of it. By making clever software, they are doing essentially what the DMCA says consumers can't do. They are circumventing copyright by inhibiting access to legal material copies which are owned by individuals.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

so?... A true Technophile knows an xBox is a PC

[Wingfat]

A true Technophile knows an xBox is a PC, and I have a high end gaming rig and gaming laptop. Why oh why would i pay for an xbox? Cant upgrade it when new tech comes out.. and i can get all the games on the PC (cheaper too). --- yes yes yes.. i am an avid Sony tech.. and have everything Sony under the sun (well Vita is ordered and coming soon).

"Used" for IP is meaningless

[AcidPenguin9873]

As many people on Slashdot like to say, IP (like software in this case) is not a physical good. Piracy of IP isn't theft because you haven't taken the original.

So when applied to the reverse situation, when you want to "sell" a "used" piece of IP...what does that even mean? If IP can't be stolen, how can copies of it actually be sold "used"? How can anyone enforce that you're actually selling the IP and not merely selling a copy of it? DRM? A "promise"?

Re:"Used" for IP is meaningless

[ZombieBraintrust]

A disk with a game on it is a physical good. Try selling a scrached up copy of an XBox 360 game to gamestop. They won't take it.

Symmetric vs. asymmetric information

[tepples]

Besides, dedicated screens are much more enjoyable for most games.

In a game of perfect information, such as Chess or Street Fighter, or in a game of otherwise symmetric information, such as Blackjack or Dr. Mario, I don't see how dedicated screens on a LAN of PCs would necessarily improve the experience over multiple gamepads on one big screen. True, this doesn't apply to competitive FPS or RTS, which like Stratego are games of hiding information from the other players. Do you claim that "most" multiplayer video games are games of hiding?

Re:Symmetric vs. asymmetric information

[chispito]

Do you claim that "most" multiplayer video games are games of hiding?

You're making it too conceptual. I'll simplify:
1) When you share a screen, the things that you actually want to see are made smaller.
2) Almost any multiplayer game can be played from separate locations, but some--like Poker--cannot really be played on the same screen.

Re:Symmetric vs. asymmetric information

[SuricouRaven]

Me and some friends play ut2k4 often - and usually on the same maps. One of them has speakers. I've gotten good enough that I can tell were he is by the ambient sound effects.

Re:Bought fake Insluin, hope someone has some info

[Noren]

Perhaps if you'd taken a regular, non-fucking chemistry class you would have learned of hydrogen peroxide- two hydrogen and two oxygen will bond all right. The mono part is unnecessary for reasons other than the one you stated.

That being said, it's too bad they didn't offer a fucking chemistry class when I went to school, that sounds like an interesting topic.

Screwing with the controller

[Dutch Gun]

Honestly, as much as the "no used sales" bothers me, I'm also worried as hell MS will screw up their controller. IMO, it's currently damn-near perfect right now (with the exception of the d-pad for many, I know - I don't use it that much), at least for my hand size. The PS3 controller feels too small and lightweight, and it's not nearly as ergonomic-feeling for me. And Nintendo seems to make a game of create an even more horrid and unwieldy controller with each new console generation.

Xbox Live and the Xbox controller are the reason 95% of my game purchase are for the Xbox, even though I own all three consoles. I only buy games for the others when they're exclusive to that platform.

Personally, I'm not sure I put much stake in these rumors, though. If MS were solidly in the leader position, I wouldn't put it past them to do this. However, with the current 3-way race with no runaway leader, I think they can't afford to annoy their customers that much. Competition is a good thing.

Thanks for the heads up

[Anonymous Coward]

Will never buy one

Just get a Wii U

[DeanCubed]

Sure you won't have an online community as robust as X-Box Live, but now that we know their performance specs are comparable (the Xbox may be up to 20% more powerful - thats like a PS2 to Original Xbox difference), we know that most 3rd party games will end up on both systems, and you will be able to play online on Wii U for free, AND buy used games.

Re:Bought fake Insluin, hope someone has some info

[localman57]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_peroxide

Illegal Restraint of Trade

[ZombieBraintrust]

Where have our anti-trust laws gone. These One Use Codes are an artificial restraint on trade. Their only purpose is to prevent a secondary market and drive prices up. Since when is that legal.

I'm not worried...

[BurningFeetMan]

Most of the games that I buy on Gog.com, GamersGate.com & Steam are between $2 - $10, I couldn't care less about trading them or selling them on. In thinking that I spend hours, if not days playing these cheap games, in comparison to a cup of coffee which costs $3.50, I've got nothing to complain about. Further to this, I still have all my games that I've collected as a kid. In that I've never sold any games in the past, why would I start worrying about doing so now?

Further to this, I've noticed lately that I'm finding myself too lazy to rummage through my box of old floppies & CD's, and instead I'm simply repurchasing my favourite games of yesteryear as a download. Total Annihilation, Constructor, Rise of the Triad... The install, the patches, the compatibility hacks are all automated, meaning that once the game's installed I don't have to fuck with it for 2 hours to get it running on Windows 7 64-bit.

TLDR;
I paid the internet $10 to download and install my favourite classic games that I already own cause I'm lazy. But hey, I have games to play, I'm a busy man! I don't have time to rummage through storage boxes!

Re:Bought fake Insluin, hope someone has some info

[V. P. Winterbuttocks]

I always knew my fucking problems were because of having the wrong chemistry.

Is the real issue with gamers, or with stores?

[Liam Pomfret]

Realistically, blocking the ability of gamers to sell their used games isn't likely to be that much of a concern. PC gamers have already shown they're willing to accept that when coupled with reasonably sensible pricing schemes (eg. Practically any PC game download service, such as Steam).

The real problem for a company trying to implement something like this is going to be with the stores. Historically, stores such as Gamestop have only minimal margins on the sales of actual gaming consoles. (The Wii is a rare and notable exception there, and the Wii U is unlikely to be different on that score.) It's the same kind of razor & blades business model that Microsoft and Sony use selling them the consoles in the first place (though not as extreme, since Microsoft and Sony usually lose money on each console sold.) This is why many stores try to up-sell you to a bundle when you're buying a console, since they make so much more on the margin of those games (even the ones that they seemingly discount dramatically for the purpose of the bundle).

If you eliminate the possibility of these stores selling used games on a console, then you're leaving them only with new games (average margins) and consoles (minimal margins). What do you think will be the result of that? Most likely, they'll shift shelf space to something with better margins, if not eliminate the product line from their stores entirely. After all, when a games store sells you a console, they're hoping to continue to make money from you from game sales in the future. If you can't buy used games from them, then your value as a customer to them has just decreased dramatically.

Re:Is the real issue with gamers, or with stores?

[th3rmite]

What about retro gaming? If in 20 years you start feeling nostalgic, want to play the game you loved from now you just won't be able to. You would have to find someone with a used console that already has the game tied to it. No longer will you be able to find classic consoles on ebay and used retro games on Amazon.

Re:Is the real issue with gamers, or with stores?

[Anonymous Coward]

There are some fairly decent ways Microsoft could go about doing this. The point is to make it more convenient than shopping and less of a hassle than pirating.

When games are released, release them in digital format as well for download onto the console at full, or slightly discounted price. Three months later, cut $10 off the price and every 3 months or so shave another $5 off until it hits a minimum of $20 or so. This way people get the "benefit" of a used game price, while money still ends up in the hands of developers as well.

Add in sales, bundles, and whatever along with an attractive interface and people might actually pop onto the store on a semi-often basis to look for games they've been meaning to play at cheap prices.

Thus, Microsoft gets a cut of every transaction and the developers get the rest of the cut. The middleman has been removed which spells death to the resellers and the customer is (hopefully) happy since they got a game at what they believe is a good price. Of course this doesn't help those upset by the loss of money from reselling games to those middlemen, but at least they can still get the benefit of cheaper games.

Re:Is the real issue with gamers, or with stores?

[Liam Pomfret]

And you think publishers will care? Case in point. Virtual Console. Locking you used games potentially improves their ability to re-sell you those exact same games at a future date.

Re:Is the real issue with gamers, or with stores?

[Liam Pomfret]

That still doesn't solve the issue of how you're going to get your consoles into those game stores who are now pissed off with you cutting into their margins though.

Cutting edge vs. lagging behind

[thereitis]

If I really want a game, I'll probably buy it new if it's in the $50-60 range. If I want it less, I'll wait for it to age for months and buy a cheaper, used copy. Give me cheaper *new* copies over time and I won't need the used ones. It's the same with movies: I'll go to the theatre if I really want to see a movie. Otherwise, I'll wait for it to come out on DVD and save some money.

as falls Xbox720 so falls Ms

[Anonymous Coward]

Ask them if tHEY care..

No used games OK if you bring the price down

[Tuan121]

If all new games were $30-40 and no used game market they would make WAY more money than now.

Re:No used games OK if you bring the price down

[Issarlk]

With all new games $30-40 and with an used game market they would make even more money I bet.

used gamers might reject xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

used gamers might reject xbox 720

Re:used gamers might reject xbox 720

[Anonymous Coward]

that would be no loss for MS, there is zero profit (or potentially a loss) in gamers that purchase used games. none of the gaing publishers or console makers would miss them.

Share without splitting

[tepples]

When you share a screen, the things that you actually want to see are made smaller.

How is this true even when you share a screen without splitting it? Say Ryu is fighting Ken for example; why would one be made smaller on each end of the connection?

Almost any multiplayer game can be played from separate locations

This is true if the game is turn-based, or if a real-time game allows reliable prediction of the events over the next ping time. I've read reports of horrible lag in Internet play for Street Fighter IV and Super Smash Bros. Brawl.

As we all know...

[Anonymous Coward]

You can't find serials or license keys on the internet. Nope, nowhere. They don't exist.

EB / Gamespot is the problem

[echusarcana]

Electronics Boutique / Ganespot has created the problem. They are ripping off the consumer and they are ripping off the game manufacturers. Their business practice of removing product from packaging is open to abuse. My own customer experience has been very poor.
Game manufacturers have responded by product codes and in-game content that is souring the gaming experience. I can't blame them.
More open and honest dealing with the end customer is what is required. If Microsoft puts Gamespot out of business by preventing used sales it would be ok by me.

"digital is the future of buying games"

[liquidhokie]

What does "digital is the future of buying games" mean? Any electronic game I have ever purchased since the 1980's has been digital.

maybe

[Anonymous Coward]

maybe this move can lower the cost of games all around?

why someone else cant come in with a console

[Anonymous Coward]

that lets you use used games and much much more is beyond me.
Make their download games simple iso's they can play as is or burn to disk to play at friends house.

One of them should be using this like a club to beat them with.

You cant tell me its not a winning position.

Dizzyingly retarded.

[Anonymous Coward]

I have precisely two things to say:

1) You're all fuelling stupidity like this by complaining and bitching about it, then running out to buy the latest BF/MW sequel
2) None of you are going to bypass your chance to be Commander Shepard for a weekend again just to "send a message"
3) None of you seem to recognize gaming as the addiction that it is

Society is setup in such a way that gaming away your free time is perfectly acceptable, and so is spending $60 on the latest greatest piece of trash from Electronic Arts every two months. You're all addicts- druggies- and you don't even realize it. Gaming manufactures of course love this fact because they can keep feeding you lower and lower quality crap, and you all just lower the bar to the point that it seems awesome even though whatever it is you're playing is likely a turd compared to the last game.

Stop playing games, and life becomes exceedingly simple. You'd be surprised at how much money you'll have. At that point console makers will be forced to do something that actually makes sense and that you might perhaps want to buy in an effort to lure you back.

But simply saying "TAKE MY CASH! PLEASE!" irregardless of what they do is precisely the reason why they're pulling shit like this. It's because the majority of the users out there don't give a flying fuck because they're too retarded to realize how many times they've been told to bend over and take it since they purchased their console.

I would say "vote with your wallet", but not nearly enough people will read this and actually do that, so it's totally moot. Enjoy your gaming market, I'm going outside where the graphics are wonderful and the levels are expansive.

-AC

Flawless

[HomelessInLaJolla]

Will it still work with my homeless mods for Kombat?

Raiden zipping into people and making them explode? That's a combination of gumby voodoo doll with the pharisees accusing Jesus,"He is possessed by Beelzebub!" after he went up the mountain to pray (not to the throne of Moses).

There's the ultra homeless fight... that's where the homeless guy is constantly looking like he's in "finish him" and all you need to do is go up and bag on him for the entire life meter.

Some of the homeless Kombat characters have special attacks--dumpster food, alcohol bottles, swarm of cigarette butts. The Minnesota Mike mod bares his buts'n'huts right at your character.

Blah

[Anonymous Coward]

I think a good solution for the game companies would be you come out with a game, sell it digitally only, and then people can trade in i.e. delete that game from their online account and get credits they can use to get another game cheaper. It kills the used game market but fuck it, they are crooks anyways.

Goodbye game rentals.

[Mal-2]

Unless they plan to allow special copies for rental purposes, this spells the end of game rentals. Of course, that just might be part of the intended suite of effects rather than a side effect.

Re:Goodbye game rentals.

[mysidia]

Unless they plan to allow special copies for rental purposes, this spells the end of game rentals. Of course, that just might be part of the intended suite of effects rather than a side effect.

With all the online services; PSN, Xbox Live, etc, the game manufacturer could now provide the rental service online and pocket all the rental proceeds.

The game makers would also be in a position 'cripple' or 'limit' how much of the game can be played in a rental without paying additional rental fees, online "content purchases", or the full price to upgrade from "light rental version" to "full version".

Red ring of death?

[Lairdykinsmcgee]

Okay, so what happens to all of the games I bought when my 720 inevitably red rings? Do I get to buy all of those games over?

PC games

[KingAlanI]

18 years, you say? Civilization II came out in 1994, and I still play it all the time.
Note that you don't even need to have the CD in the drive to play.
stresses the CPU/runs the fan for some reason (the game seems to go through DOS, and I'm running XP natively, that might have something to do with it)

Cautious Consumers

[Anonymous Coward]

Publishers might think this sounds good, but it could reduce sales because consumers will be much more cautious about which titles they buy. Renting is a great way to try before spending $60, but you won't be able to do that. The option of selling the game used also greatly reduces risk because you can sell it back without too much of a loss. These measures probably wouldn't impact AAA titles, but smaller titles would probably be severely impacted.

Shouldn't shares in companies work the same?

[LostMyBeaver]

Effectively, if a person buys a portion of a company and receives a voucher for it, it should not be able to be resold unless it the company itself chooses to purchase it back and then resell it to someone else?

immortal games

[lister king of smeg]

five ten? years i have a working original Atari and Nintendo NES and games for them i still use them. they are the only console game machines i on everything else has been pc, and i still play dos games on dosbox and windows 95-8-se-me games in a vm games and consoles can last for decades if you let them. for example i will always be able to play those old pc games i can keep dosbox source code and compile it on any computer i ever get. same with the win 98 vm i can compile virtualbox on any (x86(_64)) new computer i ever get. and continue to play those games forever and when they stop putting cd drives in computers i will simply rip the disks to iso files and mount them. my games will never die. when the atari and nintindo die i will have the roms and and an emulator. when this becomes standard i will still be sitting happy with my back log of decades worth of games to keep me occupied, along with new open source and drm free games i will be fine for a very very long time screw the game industry they can f*** them selves. long live V.O.G.O.N.S.

Re:Bought fake Insluin, hope someone has some info

[Swampash]

The mono part isn't necessary. You're not going to get anything but a single oxygen atom to bond with two hydrogen atoms. Take a fucking chemistry class.

Your a retard!!1

Nope, the accountants are missing that point

[Anonymous Coward]

Why? Because they get bonuses for a short-term gain (or even just the convincing story of a short-term gain: see DRM solutions providers or SPAM list merchants) and don't care that it kills long-term. And that would just get labelled as due to piracy, hence government handout required.

The ones pushing this have no reason to care about your point. Every pound that SOMEONE ELSE makes off "their" stuff (they still consider it their game, remember, even after you bought it), is a pound THEY LOST. Even if they don't want to make that pound (see the orphaned works), they will see that nobody else makes it.

They'll blame it on "piracy"

[mangu]

without a used market for buyers of new games to recoup some of the cost of their unwanted games with, they simply won't buy as many new games.

If the software companies management thought as far as that, they'd lower their prices.

What they will do is to raise prices more and create more restrictions for users. Seeing the consequences they will never acknowledge that they are killing the goose that lays the golden eggs, they will blame "pirates" as usual and lobby for more restrictive legislation.

 

So my son shouldn't play games?

[th3rmite]

My son NEVER buys new games. Hell, he can't afford them with the meager amount of money he gets from doing various chores. Also, if there are no used games, then when your console hits end of life you can no longer play it, just the games that you bought with it originally.

Re:this is what you get with console vendor lock-i

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, console vendor lock-in is to blame. I mean, look at the flourishing used PC Games market.

So where can I buy a non-MS Halo 3?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, that's right: copyrights mean you can't use Company A to play the Company B only title.

No.

[Anonymous Coward]

No.

I hope this answers your question clearly enough.

In other news, Big Game Publishers Kill Industry

[crweb]

Publishers who are fighting Used games should beware. If I am no longer given the opportunity to SELL a game I've purchased I'm a whole lot less likely to take a "chance" on buying it in the first place. Just like PC games, I don't buy unless I *know* I want to keep it long term, and thats only a 1-5 games a year.

This is why mobile gaming is taking over, $1 pop shots on something that may or may not be fun. Who cares.

nooo

[P-niiice]

please god don't drive me to nintendo

BS, havent we heard this before?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wasnt this a "Rumor" before the PS3 launch??? Yea, the used game industry is huge and any console manufacturer would be stupid ignore that. There is a reason like Best Buy has jumped into the used game market.

EA

[DarthVain]

From what I understand this is already practiced by EA and a few other companies.

Multiplayer will be disabled.

Have fun buying a game you can finish in 4 hours and has no replay value.

Simple Solution

[Anonymous Coward]

Simple solution: Just allow the lazy nature of the human video gamer to prevail.

Ignore the pirates, ignore gamestop. Stop talking about them, stop trying to build heavy roadblocks to counter them. Do not actively acknowledge their existence at all. Just start building around them. Quietly.

The next XBox will undoubtedly have a robust online marketplace. Take a page from Steam's playbook and release games there. Every single game. Still release physical copies as well, but price the digital ones slightly lower. You explain it by saying "We save money on packaging and shipping costs, then pass those savings on to you!" Instant brownie points among gamers, and you create a difficult decision:

People must decide between going to the store and paying $60, then going to a different store a few months later to get their $20 for selling it used, or just buying it for $50 from the comfort of their couch and having it forever. Even better, 6 months down the road you can discount the online version. Again people have a similar decision: go to a store to buy a physical used copy that might be scratched and will require another trip to the store again to sell back, or just buying it online at the discounted price.

Of course, there will be a small group of people who will never stop figuring out ways to pirate games, and nothing you do or say will stop them. The trick is, again, to just ignore them. They represent MAYBE 5% of gamers out there (especially now that Wii and its ilk have expanded the definition of "gamers" to include my freaking grandmother) so do not put systems in place that hamper the 95% legitimate contingent, just to spite the 5% who aren't going to be affected anyway

caveat: pricing numbers are for the sake of argument. I have no idea where the 'sweet spot' is to cause the best dilemma while maximizing profits. I'm sure the multi-billion dollar companies can figure that one out