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Some Critics Suggest Apple Boycott Over Chinese Working Conditions
Hugh Pickens writes "The Guardian reports that Apple's image is taking a dive after revelations in the NY Times about working conditions in the factories of some of its network of Chinese suppliers and the dreaded word 'boycott' has started to appear in media coverage of Apple's activities. 'Should consumers boycott Apple?' asked a column in the Los Angeles Times as it recounted details of the bad PR fallout amid detailed allegations that workers at Foxconn suffered in conditions that resembled a modern version of bonded labor, working obscenely long shifts in unhealthy conditions with few of the labor rights that workers in the west would take for granted." Read on, below.
Pickens continues: "But Apple has come out fighting, which is no surprise given the remarkable success that the company has seen in recent years with its reputation for 'cool' among hip urban professionals and a generally positive corporate image. In a lengthy email sent to Apple staff, chief executive Tim Cook met the allegations head-on. 'We care about every worker in our worldwide supply chain. Any accident is deeply troubling, and any issue with working conditions is cause for concern,' Cook said. He went on to slam critics of the company. 'Any suggestion that we don't care is patently false and offensive to us ... accusations like these are contrary to our values.' So will we see some kind of movement to boycott Apple products, akin to the campaign several years ago to pressure Nike to improve working conditions in its factories asks Sam Gustin in Time Magazine? "You can either manufacture in comfortable, worker-friendly factories, or you can reinvent the product every year, and make it better and faster and cheaper, which requires factories that seem harsh by American standards," an anonymous current Apple executive told the Times. "And right now, customers care more about a new iPhone than working conditions in China.""
If the sheer number of Apple devices at any given Occupy protest are any indication, it would seem the professional protestors who usually lead this kind of thing are going to bend over backwards to give Apple a free pass on just about anything. Christ, there were Occupy protestors CRYING the day Steve Jobs died--even as they rallied against our corporate overlords (with no sense of the irony at all). So unless you can sell them on the idea that Tim Cook has somehow corrupted their beloved Apple in the last few months, I would say your chances are pretty much nil.
And this isn't meant as flamebait. Seriously, go to an Occupy protest sometime and just look at the sheer number of Mac's, iPhones, and iPads you'll see. It's fucking creepy. They've been for shit at organizing on any other point, but they've apparently almost all agreed on at least *one* thing.
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
To those who have been watching Apple for years, this is just a long list of transgressions that make it obvious to avoid Apple.
- Walled gardens, vendor lock in
- Taking down applications from the App Store and including versions in iOS
- Spurious litigation and anti-competitive lawsuits in Germany and Australia
- CarrierIQ, GPS tracking privacy gaffes
- Planned failure just after warranty period (ever since the original pod)
When you think of products that are so anti consumer (not necessarily anti-usability), Apple comes to mind. As for many here, it's just business as usual as I will never buy an Apple product (especially after the first pod) anyway.
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Next, boycott anyone who can't guarantee their workers receive a decent standard of living...
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Wow. Poor working conditions in a Chinese factory? I'd never have guessed.
The question is, how does this compare to other factories in China? Better or worse? Because if the working conditions at Apple's Chinese partners are on par with or better than the conditions at other Chinese factories, then we had better boycott *all* Chinese-produced products and not just those shiny Apple toys.
Yay! Linux is free... but it still runs on hardware produced in a Chinese factory.
"Dude you're a barista"
What a ridiculous article to single out Apple when all the manufacturers take advantage of cheap labor. This has been going on for hundreds of years and is really nothing new.
Unless everyone is willing to spend a significant more on almost product (tech or non-tech based) this won't change.
Your flame bait rant aside....Just read the comments from Apple executives. They're enough to make you smash Apple products you own.
The NYT article brings to light conditions and tragedies that many people did not know about. It's hard to ignore these images.
If the sheer number of Apple devices at any given Occupy protest are any indication, it would seem the professional protestors who usually lead this kind of thing are going to bend over backwards to give Apple a free pass on just about anything. Christ, there were Occupy protestors CRYING the day Steve Jobs died--even as they rallied against our corporate overlords (with no sense of the irony at all). So unless you can sell them on the idea that Tim Cook has somehow corrupted their beloved Apple in the last few months, I would say your chances are pretty much nil.
And this isn't meant as flamebait. Seriously, go to an Occupy protest sometime and just look at the sheer number of Mac's, iPhones, and iPads you'll see. It's fucking creepy. They've been for shit at organizing on any other point, but they've apparently almost all agreed on at least *one* thing.
I am surprised that the Apple community does not go after Apple about wages like other did about the Nike plants outside the USA. Some recent article about Steve Jobs quoted an Apple executive saying paying US wages in mainland China (instead of $17/day) would only increase the price of an iPad by $70.
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These articles regarding Apple's labour practices have been fairly regular for years, now. It's not that many people did not know about it; it's that many people choose not to care about it.
All of these articles about Apple's supply chain seem to ignore one fact: Apple's aren't the only products made in these factories.
Want to boycott horrific working conditions? Stop buying everything. Even Made in America products have parts or raw materials from overseas sweatshops. Electricity in the United States is typically powered by coal, which routinely ignores safety regulations.
The problem isn't Apple. The problem is lax governmental regulation that allows this to happen. Want to stop Apple from using sweatshops? Want to stop Google and Facebook from tracking your every move? Make it illegal, and enforce the damned law.
I am really confused about this. My Android handset was made in China under Foxconn like condition if not at Foxconn itself. If we are going to boycott Apple on this, shouldn't we boycott every Android handset\tablet, along with a shit ton of other electronics that we all know and use daily?
Seriously, I don't understand why boycott just apple on this. Shouldn't we boycott ALL chinese manufactured electronics? A broader movement maybe?
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"All these other plants are horrible as well so we should just accept the perhaps slightly less horribleness of Apple's plant conditions."
Nope. If true (and it very well could be), that means the problem is bigger, which means we need to fight harder to solve it, not just roll over.
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
"And this isn't meant as flamebait. "
And yet it is.
Apple isn't getting a free pass, a lot of people are just not very well informed about the matter. Now that Apple's manufacturing practices are becoming better known, there is a growing back lash. Will it last? Maybe, maybe not. The truth is that the electronic devices like smart phones, computers and tablets are a part of everyday life in the US for a very large part of the population. Convincing people that they need to pay more for these devices isn't an easy cause to champion.
I am not even sure what the point of your comment was outside of a thinly veiled stab at a political movement that you obviously disagree with. Should everyone give a free pass to Apple just because you produced an anecdote that occupy protesters use too many apple devices?
On Wall Street they say "buy low, sell high" On the pad we say, "buy high, sell high" Isn't that somehow better?
Before the NYT article (and CBS Sunday Morning yesterday), NPR's This American Life helped break the story. It's a good listen: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/454/mr-daisey-and-the-apple-factory
An interesting point made at the end of the NPR program is that, although working conditions are bad, the availability of these jobs is *still* a step up from working a subsistence living in the rice paddies. In particular, these jobs have given reasonable salaries to, and hence empowered, women.
I used to think that people wanted American products without American price tags. Apple has convinced me that the problem is a lot more difficult to define. People will pay outrageous prices for certain things, but everything else has to be dirt cheap.
Just searching for "apple margin iphone" shows that they are taking maybe 35%, down from 60% earlier. I find it hard to believe that hiring US workers would bring it down considerably. The design and development cost wouldn't change, just the profit margin.
Of course, the stock is ridiculously high due to these margins, so some Americans are benefitting. The ones who already have money to invest, that is.
Alot of what was mentioned in the NY Times is new information. Describing worker dormitories, describing what Apple expected from the company to make a last minute product line changes; quoting Apple executives praising the working conditions.
Combined with this news and Apple's 4Q financial reports, show's Apple in a very bad light. A very profitable company that doesn't care about the conditions of workers.
The problem is the companies are attracted to the WalMart prices for labor... or more precisely, "manufacturing services." The companies pay for results and get them. It doesn't matter that they murder kittens in those facilities does it?
The boycott, if any, should be against China... more specifically, Chinese manufacturing. This is precisely how they can cost so little. If they were to raise their standards, they would be more expensive and suddenly less attractive. And the only real way around this is to call for government support and sanctions.
The US government is well aware of the conditions in China. They still have favored nation status where trading is concerned. Everyone wants their WalMart prices badly enough to look away when faced with violations of human rights and simply bad and unhealthy working conditions.
These cost savings enjoyed by Apple doesn't seem to translate well into lower prices though...
What's idiotic about this is that every tech company gets its products made by the same factories. Why are they proposing boycotting apple, not boycotting all tech companies?
Oh, that's right, because boycotting all tech companies would be impossible to make happen, and apple are an easy scapegoat.
The Chinese sweatshop Apple employs for the iEverythings is Foxconn. Other stuff Foxconn works on/componies Foxconn works for:
If you're not buying from a company that uses Foxconn, you're not buying tech.
I'm a psychologist (amongst other things).
Apple's margins are 40-50% in some of their devices, and by accepting the profit margins common thoughout the industry, or marginally increasing their own prices, they could all be built in the US. Instead of being a good citizen (corporations are people too!) and helping get our economy back on its feet by increasing domestic manufacturing, Apple is simply pocketing the difference. That's why they have one hundred billion dollars in the bank.
Additionally, Apple is very brand conscious. If people start boycotting and picketing Apple Stores, the protest could actually work. The other manufacturers like Lenovo and Dell and Microsoft have some retail presence, but nothing like Apple.
Some recent article about Steve Jobs quoted an Apple executive saying paying US wages in mainland China (instead of $17/day) would only increase the price of an iPad by $70.
And if you were going to pay US wages you could always, I don't know, build the damn thing in America?
I'm not exactly a Buy American nazi, but if the flagship products of greenwashing high-end manufacturers can't be built here, then what can?
Just to play Devil's Advocate here, while you may be willing to pay $70 more does that mean everyone else will? A standard of living is effectively defined as being how much money you make versus how much of that money you have to spend to acquire goods. To pay more for electronics is tantamount to a decrease in the standard of living for westerners, and no one is going to be in favor of giving up their standard of living.
This American Life did a piece earlier this month on working conditions at Foxconn called "Mr. Daisey and the Apple Factory":
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/454/mr-daisey-and-the-apple-factory
I don't remember the details, but a couple economists at the end shrug off the horrible conditions because the whole process of industrialization benefits the population overall. It sucks, but they're better off for it. They note that while the manufacturing industry made it over to China, workers rights didn't go with it, but conditions ARE improving. It's a good listen if you have an hour.
Actually, it wasn't very nice of the NY Times to not put the stats they used to suggest a boycott of Apple into any sort of context. So I'll do that for them ...
18 suicides per million workers at Foxconn? OK, that's very sad, but the Chinese national average is 220 per million. More than 12X higher.
7 fatal workplace injuries per million workers at Foxconn? Agains, tragic. But the US(!) national average is 35. 5X more.
Average salary for production workers at Foxconn only $6,000? To us privileged Westerners, that seems like a pittance. The average for China as a whole? $4,500 or 25% less than Foxconn workers.
I'm not suggesting that Foxconn is a dream job, without harsh conditions etc etc. But to not provide context for your statistics is disingeous at best, and deliberately dishonest at worst. And what, exactly, would a boycott actually do?
DaveyJJ
I need to know what the cheapest Apple product is, please? The reason is, I'm pretty penniless right now so boycotting e.g. a MacBook would be an empty gesture as I can't afford one anyway. However if I can refuse to buy something that I could afford e.g. an iPod Shuffle or an iPhone dock or something then I'm right behind you, sisters.
A Chinese commenter to the NYT site said that if people had known the lives of these people prior to Foxconn, they would come to the opposite condition and call Apple philanthropists.
Your flame bait rant aside....Just read the comments from Apple executives. They're enough to make you smash Apple products you own.
Agreed. It's one thing to make your products in factories operating under those conditions, but the apple exutive seemed to be so proud of the fact that they have near-slaves building their products when he described the condition under which they work. I can't even imagine what he was thinking when he described all that the way he did. A normal person holds back when talking about something they know other people probably wouldn't approve of, especially when it's a major corporation with a public image to uphold. He seemed oblivious to the fact that people might not approve. I couldn't decide if he was clueless or a sociopath.
I am not even sure what the point of your comment was outside of a thinly veiled stab at a political movement that you obviously disagree with.
Quite the contrary. I strongly support the idea of fighting corporatocracy. But if the movement is ever going to achieve anything it's going to have to be much more CONSISTENT and MAINSTREAM. Consistent means that selected corps like Apple and Democratic politicians don't get free passes. Mainstream means that the movement has to be more than just the standard hippie and drum-circle crowd (and no hippies guarding the gates with a "We don't want to let in any poseurs who don't even own a hemp shirt" attitude).
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
There were several articles about why Apple doesn't build its hardware in US any more- I'm too tired to google them for you right now. It's not so much about wages, but more about scalability of production, flexibility and supply lines. It was completely impossible to set up manufacturing quickly and do last minute changes scale it up rapidly the way Foxconn did anywhere in US- sometimes at human cost. One of the reasons was that Foxconn had workers living in barracks to be woken up and shuffled into the factories when needed. And they had A LOT of workers, including qualified engineers available. Another reason is that almost all of the suppliers of components are in China already, so supply lines for parts are much shorter.
The article even mentioned Obama personally asking Steve Jobs what it would take to get manufacturing back to US, and the answer was it was no longer possible.
--Coder
How long before people American's can't afford the product at "Made in China" prices? If nobody has a job. the boycott will come to Apple. Like it or not.
Having to work for a living is the root of all evil.
Did you read the NYT article?
You didn't? I'm shocked.
If you had, you would have realised that the other tech companies often pay these manufacturers more money to be spent on improving work conditions, whereas Apple chooses to squeeze them for every dirty brown penny, which inevitably leads to cuts in worker pay and conditions.
If you'd read the article you would also know that whilst Apple has a very pretty code of conduct for their suppliers, it is common for them to simply ignore infractions of that code of conduct, with fewer than 15 suppliers terminated for non-compliance since 2007, even though there are scores of the most serious breaches of that code of conduct recorded every year.
Apple does a lot of talking about worker safety, but they don't do a whole lot of walking.
My phone says it was made in Hungary but I imagine it was only assembled there and the components were made in China. The battery was made in China. Unfortunate but an improvement over a completely Chinese manufactured device.
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It may be true that all products from China are produced under similar conditions so the people building samsungs and acers have it just as bad as those building iStuff. However, some of Apple's success is attributed to the massive quantities they purchase and how they hold great power over manufacturers to drive their cost down. I'd say this also makes apple the most effective target for a boycott. Their control as the single buyer of vast numbers of parts puts them in the unique position to be able to improve working conditions. Instead of saying "we'll buy 50,000,000 LCD screens if you reduce the cost by 3% or sell to us exclusively" they could say "we'll buy 50,000,000 screens if you stop making workers live in pens and let them have friends/unionize". Of course, the only reason they would do such a crazy thing would be because of a massive boycott. It would seem that if you care about how your stuff is made, your best bet is to go after the biggest fish.
Ah so you state that people are not totally consitent in their behavior. While they have accepted that corporations are not working in the public interest (at least their motivation is not the public interest, but their own pockets), they are still bound by their desires and wishes and they live out their projections. This is definitely true. but it is true for all of us. Some people even do not accept simple facts, like we have an energy consuption and a resource consumption problem. And we have to change our way or it will become problematic to have such thing as our present society.
The real thing is, we have to change (not the others, if we wait for them, they will wait for us). Meaning I have to change how I live. And you should change how you live. And doing these changes are hard. And yes we should thin twice buying anything from Apple again as long they have that production agenda and they have their locked plattforms. However, it might be complicated, because Samsung, HTC and others manufacture their devices i nthe same or similar shops.
The best thing to do, do not buy a new phone unless the old is broken. And if possible, replace the battery if you can instead of throwing the thing away.
The good thing about that occupy movement (as far as I can see it from over here), they might be open to arguments. Therefor, they might understand the arguments againts Apple.
You know what will fix this and bring jobs back to the USA? Accountability.
Accountability for what your outsourced partner is doing, accountability for the third party you hire, and accountability for their working conditions on the same level with the USAs internal standards.
Boycott? pppffttt... how about real punishment.
I note that few of the Apple fanbois have chosen to defend Apple here. Rather they just bleat that 'everyone does it', as though that's ever been much of a justification for appalling behaviour.
Pay them a quarter of a US wage then. That will only add $20 to the price, and still be a lot more than they're currently getting. Additionally, it will mean that a lot of them will actually be able to afford Apple products, increasing the size of the potential market.
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And Apple's not alone on this. Dell, HP, Sony, Microsoft ( Xbox360 ) all use Foxconn as well. I'm not being an Apple apologist... I believe that Apple knew full well what it was getting in to and the new plant in Brazil is an effort to distance themselves from Foxconn, but that's not enough. Apple should be taking a stand and stopping this treatment of workers. It's not their fault... that's Foxconn's faul and China's fault, but Apple should use its prowess to make change.
( And FYI All that info about worker dormatories etc isn't new.. The Register has done multiple pieces on the horrible working conditions for years... since 2006 even. )
From what I hear from people that know better: If you ever experienced American working conditions, you would never find Foxconn working conditions acceptable or even humane. However, if you have never left China, Foxconn may be the best chance at avoiding starvation. Other factories are far worse. In fact, the only reason we hear from Foxconn issues is because of its link to Apple. If we actually cared, we would be hearing about Aigo’s Shenzhen factory, or Samsung's OEM factory in Tianjin, that pays way less to their employees than Foxconn.
A recent episode of House actually did a good gaze on the topic, where the new philanthropist doctor is against a company move to Asia while the Asian doctor insist that is the best chance most people have of a better life relative to their current situation.
We have a choice (as a country not really as consumers) to stay out of China. That choice, though, will just result in forcing a worse life on those employees. But hey, better have them suicide or starve in a farm where only the family has to worry about the corpse!
Let's face it: the press does not care. The press just wants to print articles that get clicks to show ads, and they know Apple related news gets traffic, especially bad news.
Sorry for the rant but this Foxconn hypocrisy really gets to me.
The Economist ran an article about China's balance of trade last week which included a breakdown of the value (price) of an iPad. Just over 50% was costs, the rest was profit, of which 30% to Apple (the rest to others in the supply chain). Chinese labour costs were minimal at 2%. They could perhaps reduce their profits to redistribute wealth from their execs/shareholders to the workers.
http://www.economist.com/node/21543174
Western countries, and particularly the UK during the first heady rush of the Industrial Age, had working practices that would horrify the most suicidal Foxconn worker while they moved from a rural to an industrial economy. The USA actually practiced slavery during this period of their development. This is nothing new and while it is horrible, it's an essential part of the development of an economy.
The only thing a developing country can do to lure investment from the more developed economies is sell cheap labour. Luckily, there is a progression from cheap labour to educated workforce that means it's usually only a single generation that has to work in conditions like this. Korea is the best most recent example, where the younger generation are firmly building a knowledge economy on the back of the education that their parent's factory work paid for. [citation coming if I can be bothered digging it out]
You can see a pattern of modern manufacturers chasing cheap labour moving around the globe, building factories and industrial knowledge and infrastructure, then moving on as the local workforce becomes more knowledgeable and expensive. It does leave behind a country that is industrialised and capable of building a manufacturing base that doesn't rely on cheap labour and has better working conditions.
If we insisted that all labour in developing countries was paid the same wage as the average US or European worker, and had similar working conditions, healthcare, life expectancy, educational prospects, and so on, then no developing country could afford to develop. We would be stuck with a developed world that had all the money and an undeveloped world that could never compete or take part in the global economy, wedged forever in a poverty trap that they couldn't get out of.
So yes, bizarrely, it's a good thing that Chinese workers are working under horrific working conditions, just like our great-great-grandparents were, so that they can bring up kids like us who won't have to.
Business/App ideas are like arseholes: everyone's got one, they're mostly shit, but very rarely they contain a diamond
Tim Cook met the allegations head-on:
'Any suggestion that we don't care is patently false and offensive to us ... accusations like these are contrary to our values.'
There you have it, "we care because we say we care, and therefore those workers are obviously cared for." Wow, Tim, way to keep the reality distortion field alive!
But the larger problem is that, for many of the workers, the option is keep the job at the factory, or go back to dirt farming.
The factory is actually the better option. The problem here is that poverty in China is massive.
Like it or not these plants represent opportunity for those working there. Now, it is debatable that the plants should give the workers more opportunity and less work, but their options if they leave the plant are likely worse.
In my view, the real question should not be "should we boycott iPhones" but "which smartphone do we boycott". There is no reason Apple should be the only smarphone manufacturer under inspection, and I haven't read anywhere a comparison.
And in case they're all bad, you will never get enough people to boycott all Smartphones. But compare the manufacturers: RIM, HTC, Apple, Samsung, SONY, Nokia and you can find the worst offender. Then, you can put pressure on the worst offender.
That way, you can raise the manufacturing conditions by the bottom, which makes sense. But I somehow doubt Apple is one of the worst offender. I may be wrong.
Write boring code, not shiny code!
Boycotting apple is a good idea, yes everyone is using the same factories but it is unrealistic to boycott everyone at the same time. So why not pick the bully in the group and lay him out? Apple is used by people who claim to care, so force apple to care. Then once they are forced into it, move the next company down the line. I bet it would not take long and no one would be using the appealing worker conditions.
just my thoughts on the situation - Vlad
Why is Apple being singled out, anyway? Is the implication that Apple is worse than EVERY OTHER electronics-manufacturing company? I can't remember the last time I bought something electronic NOT made in China (my old Fujitsu laptop was made in Japan... can't think of anything else)
The Economist ran an article about China's balance of trade last week which included a breakdown of the value (price) of an iPad. Just over 50% was costs, the rest was profit, of which 30% to Apple (the rest to others in the supply chain). Chinese labour costs were minimal at 2%. They could perhaps reduce their profits to redistribute wealth from their execs/shareholders to the workers.
http://www.economist.com/node/21543174
That is more what I was thinking, instead of adding to the price. If those #Occupy people practiced what they preached, Apple stores would be under siege instead of being mobbed by weeping customers at the loss of Dear Leader.
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Now that Apple is popular and trendy, any mention of Apple in a news story is sure to attract attention, clicks, viewership, listeners, etc. News media doesn't care about working conditions in China any more than the average American, otherwise they'd be complaining about/to every tech company in the country. They just want the ratings that come with putting "Apple" in a story.
On the other hand, if any company were to take an active stance on the working conditions of its production labor, I really think it'll be Apple. A couple years back when environmentalists picked up the "let's pick on Apple to gain attention" tactic, Apple responded with efforts to make their products greener and promote recycling. Obviously international labor laws aren't as easy to fix but Apple cares enough about its customers' opinions and its image to try.
"Mankind was my business. The common welfare was my business; charity, mercy, forbearance, and benevolence were all my business. The dealings of my trade were but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my business!"
I don't think we consumers can get out our responsibility quite that easily.
You can throw in MIcrosoft as well http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-01-10-workers-at-xbox-360-plant-threaten-mass-suicide
plus pretty much every other gadget and consumer electronics company...
I don't have any Apple products. You can't call me a blind fan. I felt nothing the day Jobs died.
But how is it just Apple that's being singled out here? WE PRACTICALLY GET EVERYTHING FROM CHINA and somehow ONLY APPLE is the offender?
I'll go ahead and give it to you... down with corporate interests!! Booo corporations! HAVE ANY OF YOU ASS HATS HEARD OF WALMART?!!! Shit, name a corporation of note that isn't deep into China's questionable manufacturing practices. Boycotting Apple is stupid you need to start thinking a lot bigger than that. Next time you go to the store try and restrict your purchases to products not made in China. Also buy a globe and a few text books to figure out if you can buy from most other Asian countries without contributing to the poor working conditions.
Fuck'n Americans are stupid. You can't even respond to this post without using something that doesn't have a "Made in China" stamp on it. Get a fucking clue already.
Like most protest movements, anti-Apple activism is likely unproductive and too focused.
HP, Microsoft, IBM, Oracle... do you really think all the other tech companies are innocent in such matters? Given that the problem extends beyond the tech sector -- are you willing to boycott your refrigerator, or your car, or your shirt? Picking on Apple is targeting an easy mark, one that probably has more to do with disliking Apple's image than it does with any real desire to help people.
I don't own or buy Apple products for a lot of reasons. Their use of asian semi-slave factories will not be solved by a boycott, simply because most people don't give a rat's rump. Consumers want their cheap toys, and the "don't give a shitters" outnumber indignant Slashdotters by hundreds of thousands to one.
If you feel that boycotting Apple is some sort of stand against naughtiness, knock yourself out. Delude yourself that buying an Android phone or a Samsung computer makes you holier the Jobs' army..
However, if you want to make a difference, get involved in the political process, as people did with SOPA/PIPA. Make a stink on the broader issue of companies selling product created by near-slave labor in dangerous facilities.Anything less is playing at activism, as if it were a shiney toy, puffing your ego because "I'm doign something" that costs you little and helps the problem even less.
All about me
Take a good look at this.. this is how was here in the late 1800s and early 1900s. And that is what all the political class wants to go back too.
Ok, you are Apple. It's 2005, and you are building a new phone, and you think demand for it will be huge. You know you need it made for market in 2007, i.e. in two years. What do you do?
a) Start building a new factory in USA paying for everything UP FRONT. You'll be lucky if you get planning permissions & foundations for the factory done in 2 years, never mind complete tooling and the people to run it. Besides shipping times for components that are already being made in china are 35 days. So if you find out that chip X needs to be changed to chip Y because of some issue, you'll have to wait for 35 days to get a shipment of chip Y. Shipping components by plane costs 10x more and is unfeasible.
b) Contract it out to Foxconn. They have the factory and the people to run it RIGHT NOW. It's tried. It's tested. It works. If your phone is successful, they'll get more factory space and people on manufacturing it in a matter of days or weeks, not months. Components are shipped by train or truck over a matter of hours or days. You don't have to pay them much until manufacturing starts.
What would you do if you were Steve Jobs?
I'm all for getting as much of manufacturing as possible done by robots. I haven't worked in a car factory, but I imagine robots are LESS flexible than people, so if you want to do a new model 6 months later, you'd find it very hard to reconfigure the factory to produce it. I believe having a robotic factory FLEXIBLE is possible, but right now its probably hard and expensive. And even then for electronic devices, unless all of your suppliers are in USA, it is not going to happen.
--Coder
They're singled out because they're the most visible. That's the price you pay for being at the head of the pack. If they don't like it - maybe they should do something about the factory conditions.
"Everybody else is doing it" wasn't a valid defense when you were 7, and it's not a valid defense when you're running a giant corporation.
In my view, the real question should not be "should we boycott iPhones" but "which smartphone do we boycott". There is no reason Apple should be the only smarphone manufacturer under inspection, and I haven't read anywhere a comparison.
And in case they're all bad, you will never get enough people to boycott all Smartphones. But compare the manufacturers: RIM, HTC, Apple, Samsung, SONY, Nokia and you can find the worst offender. Then, you can put pressure on the worst offender.
That way, you can raise the manufacturing conditions by the bottom, which makes sense. But I somehow doubt Apple is one of the worst offender. I may be wrong.
No, the way to raise manufacturing conditions is to put pressure on the most VISIBLE company. That puts pressure on everyone. Apple is the most visible, so start with them and when they reform, the others will have to follow in order to compete.
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While I don't have sufficient information about the gadget demographics of the various occupy movements to respond to the truth of your post one way or the other, I'm a bit confused about why that is relevant here.
Although broad and rather amorphous, the major focus(or foci) of 'occupy' seems to have been situations where the non-plutocrat Americans have been stuck playing a rigged game. The immediate flashpoints tend to be areas where it is nakedly obvious that a game of "heads I win, tails you lose" is being played by some sort of besuited gambler who has managed to privatize the gains and socialize the losses of whatever Gordon-Gecko stuff he is engaged in. More broadly, the offshoring of much of the skilled-blue-collar segment certainly hasn't helped the situation; but that seems to have taken something of a back burner, important; but not quite as blatant as the overt taxpayer-dollars-into-finance-sector-coffers schemes...
In terms of offshoring, Apple is pretty much identical to the computer industry as a whole(and their labor practices also aren't much different, they just have more hipster cred, which makes them look dissonant).
While I suspect that, if asked, the 'occupy' demographic would, indeed, be against exploitation of Chinese workers, it is hardly their primary concern, so it seems odd to invoke them. It seems doubly odd because the exploitation of Chinese workers is also the concern(in a slightly different fashion) of people who wouldn't be caught dead hanging out with the hippie liberal scum. The more downmarket parts of the right wing(which is to say an overwhelming majority of its population) have been hit very, very hard by the losses in the American industrial and manufacturing sectors. They may be less likely to have a bleeding-heart concern for what Chinese kids are breathing; but they also have a great deal at stake in the fact that American firms can get workers offshore to work under shit conditions for absolute peanuts. That drags down their employment options and working conditions as well...
Apple's halo among the young and hip certainly isn't deserved on labor relations grounds; but in an industry as ugly as the tech one, they aren't exactly facing stiff competition on that score, so it hasn't really hurt them much. It isn't as though anybody is ignoring a True Blue competitor by buying Apple...
No, that won't work. The regulatory regime in this country is simply too overbearing. Compliance is too expensive. Get Apple to switch away from Foxconn, and they will just move to another Chinese manufacturer, likely one that treats its workers better. Raise a ruckus over Chinese manufacturers, and they will move to some other country other than America. It will be hard to complain when they move to Germany, where the regulatory regime is industry friendly even with high taxes and high wages.
"Everybody else is doing it" wasn't a valid defense when you were 7, and it's not a valid defense when you're running a giant corporation.
I fail to see a good reason to boycott the most visible company for shoddy labor practices while ignoring others. My point wasn't "don't boycott Apple, everybody else is doing it". My point is "boycott Apple AND everyone else who exploits Chinese workers".
I suspect that the second, less hypocritical, option is not being called for because we would have to use wooden tablets to achieve it (as nothing electronic is made outside of China any more).
Shit, name a corporation of note that isn't deep into China's questionable manufacturing practices.
Honestly? Toys "R" Us.
"When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
You know what will fix this and bring jobs back to the USA?
Nothing. Steve Jobs was right. Those jobs aren't coming back, and not just because of wages. Tim Cook sold Jobs on moving the manufacturing to China for a number of reasons, many which make sense (one huge reason is that America has largely abandoned the kind of job training that makes both good electronics assembly workers and the foremen that oversee them). There's a pretty good podcast here laying out most of the justifications. It sucks, but it'll likely never change. The change in education, labor laws, and factory investments would be so huge... in the trillions of dollars, on a truly industry-wide and nation-wide scale... that it'll almost certainly never happen.
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
Except it's really China's manufacturing practices. Foxconn makes parts and subsystems (as well as finished goods) for thousands of companies. Calls to boycotting Apple, in that context, are absurd, and in some ways suggest and even less informed (by way of thinking you know something now, but only knowing part of the story) position.
It's not absurd at all. Apple is, by far, the most visible customer of Foxconn and therefore the best place to start pressuring them. Boycotting Foxconn directly is impractical because no one knows which products have Foxconn parts and/or assemblies and Foxconn isn't a household word. Apple on the other hand, is a household word and everyone would understand what is involved in an Apple boycott.
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I don't have any Apple products. You can't call me a blind fan. I felt nothing the day Jobs died.
But how is it just Apple that's being singled out here? WE PRACTICALLY GET EVERYTHING FROM CHINA and somehow ONLY APPLE is the offender?
Why was Nike singled out and boycotted? Because going after high-profile high-profit brand names that need to protect their image is an effective strategy to drive change. Is it unfair for these profit machines to be singled out when somebody else also is bad? Cry me a river.
"otherwise they'd be complaining about/to every tech company in the country. They just want the ratings that come with putting "Apple" in a story."
Of course there is another, more likely possibility, though I suspect you missed it because your post really sounded just like a thinly veiled "I love Apple and they can do no wrong!" post.
The more likely possibility is that reporters quite often do actually take an interest in human rights issues, and that they're focussing on Apple indeed partly because it's the most prominent target right now, but by hitting the most prominent, and most profitable target you're hitting the firm that has the most clout available to make the required changes, and the most to lose if it doesn't. You open the door for other firms to advertise their more ethical businesses if they take a stand and Apple doesn't, you basically leave Apple an ultimatum - change, or risk being outflanked by any competitors that do.
This doesn't mean it'll work, if all firms decide to hold their ground and none are willing to change then it's of little benefit, but this tactic by reporters has worked well before. Your latter paragraph is evidence enough of that - Greenpeace was very vocal in pointing out Apple's poor track record on pollutants, and despite Steve Jobs initially telling them to f off, he was eventually left with little choice but to start changing things, as other firms started getting positive headlines because they were more green, whilst Apple was seeing continued negative press on the issue. Since then Apple has changed, but also the industry as a whole has upped it's game on the issue, so if it has the potential to work, unless you're one of those people who throws a fit if the press dares mention that Apple could improve in some area, then what's the problem?
ITT people who don't understand the difference between labor costs, capital costs, and regulatory costs.
Here's a hint: labor costs are very low compared to capital costs. Capital costs in America are LESS than in China, but that gap is rapidly diminishing. But regulatory costs are much, MUCH higher in the US. This is why manufacturing has been fleeing America.
And Apple's not alone on this. Dell, HP, Sony, Microsoft ( Xbox360 ) all use Foxconn as well.
That's true, but boycotts don't have to be fair to work. If a boycott is organized against manufacturer A, it might cause people merely to switch to manufacturer B, and B might be just as bad. However that wouldn't reduce the pressure felt by A, and A could be moved to improve their workers' conditions because of that.
Once that's been successful the boycott could be switched to manufacturer B.
And boycotts can definitely work, we've seen that happening.
There are a couple of hole in your nice, pat theory. First, those western countries reformed their work environments from within, because at the time manufacturing was mainly a local or region endeavor. In the US, in the 30's, labor finally organized to begin to reform working environments *with the support of the government*. In essence, it was a free and fairly democratic society that provided the means for the worker to stand up and demand rights.
Manufacturers are not chasing cheap labor, they are in search of cheap governments that don't have pesky environmental regulations or troublesome labor laws. They get into these countries and they stick, perhaps even helping to prop up the government so the labor force has no ability to force change. The Chinese laborer, whether it be farmer or factory, is merely chattel for the government to use. A "middle-class" is presented to show progress, but it tightly controlled and can be struck down if they get to strong to support the status quo.
Certainly there is a relative aspect to life around the globe. I would not expect a worker in a developing country to have the same living environment, the say pay, or the same life style as I. What I would expect is that the worker has rights to a regulated workplace, one the respects a human life through decent hours, balanced wages, and a respect of work/life. I would expect that the worker has the right to assemble, to form an organization that gives them some power against abuse in the workplace. I would expect that humans be treated humanely.
Now the notion of a boycott is foolish in part for reasons stated throughout this thread. It is not just Apple eating from the poison fruit, it is many companies and we all share in that guilt. The only effective way to change is to demand that our "civilized" governments enforce humane work environments for goods that come into the country or monetary penalties will be assested for each violation of human rights. Apple wants to use slave labor to build iPads, fine, but it will cost more to get them back into this country. Don't just boycott, write to representatives and demand that we stand up for human rights be making it costly to abuse humans in the manufacturing of goods.
Life is a great ride, the vehicle doesn't matter
Uhh, what you just described is exactly a scape goat – targeting the people who are the easiest target and most likely to change.
It's called "making an example out of someone". Nothing hypocritical about it. Punishing all the guilty parties is not practical, as you just said, so we just punish the most prominent one. Often, that's enough to scare the others into changing their behavior.
I am not even sure what the point of your comment was outside of a thinly veiled stab at a political movement that you obviously disagree with.
Quite the contrary. I strongly support the idea of fighting corporatocracy. But if the movement is ever going to achieve anything it's going to have to be much more CONSISTENT and MAINSTREAM.
So, have you shown up to add mainstream credibility?
Consistent means that selected corps like Apple and Democratic politicians don't get free passes.
I kinda despise Apple's attitude, but what phone is not made in China under dubious conditions? I bought a cheap (Android) phone, and plan on not replacing it for as long as possible. Same with my computers, I keep them as long as possible so as to not support the manufacturing conditions and electronic waste that the replacement cycle encourages.
Also, seems to me the Occupy movement has decidedly not taken the side of the Democrats. You sure you're not arguing against strawmen in your head?
Mainstream means that the movement has to be more than just the standard hippie and drum-circle crowd (and no hippies guarding the gates with a "We don't want to let in any poseurs who don't even own a hemp shirt" attitude).
You keep banging that "hemp shirts and drum circle" drum, pardon the pun, but they're free to protest too. And if you won't go out there and be part of the mainstream protesters, you'd serve your supposed allegiance to anti corporate abuse better by just shutting up about the whole thing. Or is it just the "professional protesting hippies in hemp shirts" that should shut up?
" America has largely abandoned the kind of job training that makes both good electronics assembly workers and the foremen that oversee them"
A lot of us said as much when the fools in Washington first uttered the words, "service economy". Services, such as fast food restaurants, are somewhat important to the economy. But, you don't BUILD a freaking economy around something that amounts to nothing more than a support industry.
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
Tariffs would do this too and are a large part of our US history. Tariffs are sanctioned by the WTO if your trade imbalance is >10%.
So why don't we do it?
love is just extroverted narcissism
The regulatory regime in this country is simply too overbearing.
It will be hard to complain when they move to Germany,...
The EU is extremely overregulated. The USA doesn't even come CLOSE.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
So when (or if) that happens you do something about it. Bring production back home. And of course you milk it for all the PR you can.
The public are fickle, have short memories and are easily distracted by shiny things.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Please mod parent up, this is the most relevant information: Chinese manufacturing represents 2% of the cost of an Ipad. i.e 10$ for the $500 Ipad, whereas Apple profits represent 30% !
It would be fairly trivial for Apple to improve working conditions in China.
Professional protesters? You mean I can get paid for protesting?
But you're right; Occupy isn't about working conditions in China, it's a protest against a corporate culture of greed and double standards. There's no reason at all to think they'll protest Apple, even if they were all using androids instead of iPhones.
Free Martian Whores!
Wow, you Apple fanatics sure know how to circle the wagons!
The "But every other tech company does it!" defense doesn't resonate particularly well coming from a company whose corporate slogan tells us to "Think different".
If Apple doesn't want to be relegated to "just another tech gadget company" status, perhaps they should seize this opportunity to take the lead in reforming the tech manufacturing industry.
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
Yeah, I think some of them tried that about 20 years ago. Quite a number of them were slaughtered by the Chinese Army, as I recall. It's a bit tough to stand up and protest when you're dealing with a ruthless dictatorship willing to kill to get its way.
I'm sorry; I don't know what I was thinking!
You're comparing 60 hour weeks to inadequate ventilation in Aluminium workshops?
Don't tell me, for your next trick you're going to compare running with scissors to drinking bleach?
Translation: American workers won't work long hours for low pay under dodgy conditions doing monkey work on assembly lines.
Seriously, it doesn't take any special or complex training to be an electronics assembly worker on anything less important than, say, the Space Shuttle's guidance system. It's mindless rote work like any other assembly line job. What they're really dodging are labor laws and unions.
Those jobs are only coming back to the U.S.A. if you are prepared to pay $3000 for an iPad or an iPhone.
If the jobs were here than they would have to compete for labor, meaning higher wages, meaning more disposable income for people to buy those iPads.
The middle class is the key to a strong economy. When our middle-class was at it's strongest, 1945-1980, the buying power of a dollar was much higher than it is today. By allowing companies to offshore all the middle-class jobs, they're effectively crippling the very market of consumers they're trying to sell shit to. This is why these tech companies are looking to the growing middle-classes in Eastern countries to make up the difference, because even making shit in China is not cheap enough for them to turn the profits they expect here, and we let them bring the shit in for nothing...
We need to either put more protectionist measures in place, such as tariffs, like the EU and Canada does, or we need to be pushing for a global economy where these companies aren't able to take advantage of the weaker currency in production and then turn around and sell the product in the stronger economy and make a fortune. Think about it: these mega-corporations can shop around all over the world to find the cheapest place to produce a material good, but can consumers in the U.S. shop in that cheaper market to buy it? Nope, there's region-locks and all sorts of red tape preventing the consumers from take advantage of this. You can't even physically go to another country and buy a bunch of shit and bring it home without all sorts of hassles when you're coming back into the U.S.; there are strict limits.
The system is totally skewed, and until we reach economic parity with the countries producing these goods, it's only going to get worse. If a company can region-lock it's product, why can't we region-lock the labor required to produce it?
I once heard EXACTLY the same argument for why manufacturing jobs would never leave the U.S., but guess what?
Absolute nonsense. With modern mechanization, I'd be amazed if there is more than an hour of moderately skilled labor in the assembly of an iPad. We most certainly do NOT pay $1500/hr here (assuming the factory makes 50 points).
The simple solution is to slap these companies with import tariffs for outsourced work...
No, that won't work. The regulatory regime in this country is simply too overbearing. Compliance is too expensive./quote.
That is absolutely, positively not fucking true, and you know it.
If you had, you would have realised that the other tech companies often pay these manufacturers more money to be spent on improving work conditions, whereas Apple chooses to squeeze them for every dirty brown penny, which inevitably leads to cuts in worker pay and conditions.
And you're gonna have to give a citation to actually back up your claim this actually happens, and that the executives just don't pocket the difference. Remember, Foxconn makes a lot of shit for Microsoft, too.
Why this obsession about worker dormitories? They're considered quite normal in developing countries because they're a solution to the chicken-and-egg problem of housing vs. jobs. How do you attract people to jobs at a new factory if there's inadequate housing nearby? How do you encourage builders to create housing nearby if there are no jobs?
It also provides a means for a company to insulate their workers from rapid housing price inflation as the area surrounding the factory becomes more developed. You have to realize that unlike developed countries, most people taking a job at the factory do not have a financial nest egg or credit history with which to buy or rent housing. The dormitories are basically guaranteed fixed-price housing for such workers. When the government does it, it's called low-income housing; but when a company does it it's bad?
And there's also differences in population density between Asia and Western Europe, and especially the U.S. and Canada. Each family at a new factory having their own tract home with a garage, white picket fence, and 2.2 kids is simply unrealistic in most Asian countries. At best, on average everyone is going to own a block unit in a high rise apartment.
Is it because Western countries don't have them? The concept seems to recur frequently in developing economies. It goes through several give-and-take cycles as management vs. labor struggle with each other, until eventually the working class develops enough of a financial base and negotiating power not to need them anymore. While the pendulum is on management's side right now, swinging it back is something which has to happen internally. If foreign countries apply pressure and get it changed, it's never going to feel genuine. Chinese management is going to feel that it happened because outsiders forced them to make it happen, not because it came about naturally as a consequence of poor labor conditions. So they'll always be striving to change it back behind the scenes, instead of accepting that that's the way it's gotta be.
Developing an economy is not like jumping quantum states. You can't take a third world economy and instantaneously convert it into a developed first world economy. There's a long, meandering path you have to take as the economy gradually builds up, and worker dorms are just a milestone along that journey. It's a step up from shanty towns.
If they want to sell 30 million iPhones in a quarter, they need U.S. market, there are no ifs or buts about it. If the condition on which they will have access to that market is to produce iPhones in U.S., they will do so, even if it costs them an extra $60 (from the current profit margin of what, $300?).
Heck, it seems that they consider Brazil an important enough market that Foxconn is building factories there to manufacture iDevices locally to dodge their import tariffs!
Stop cowtowing to corporations, and realize that they need the First World more than it needs them. They can outsource manufacturing and even R&D to India or China, but they can't outsource their customer base. Well, not yet - if you keep shipping jobs overseas at that rate, in a couple decades they will have enough customers there that they won't have to bother with U.S. and Europe anymore. And then they will, indeed, pack up and leave, and it won't matter what you say or do then.
The middle class is the key to a strong economy. When our middle-class was at it's strongest, 1945-1980, the buying power of a dollar was much higher than it is today. By allowing companies to offshore all the middle-class jobs, they're effectively crippling the very market of consumers they're trying to sell shit to. This is why these tech companies are looking to the growing middle-classes in Eastern countries to make up the difference, because even making shit in China is not cheap enough for them to turn the profits they expect here, and we let them bring the shit in for nothing...
Very much this. I am surprised that so many people in the West don't realize that the present arrangement, where goods are manufactured in China and are sold in USA, is not a stable system. It will inevitably lead to a situation where fewer and fewer people in US can afford to buy those things, while creating more and more people in China who can. When the latter number grows larger than the former, guess what happens?..
And don't hope that, once the scales turn, there will be outsourcing from China back to US. For one, even if their middle class grows bigger than the entire US population, they will still have plenty of people in poverty to exploit at the factories. For another, they would outsource to where labor is significantly cheaper, meaning places like Africa - and Chinese companies are already preparing for this, heavily investing into new infrastructure in many African countries or just buying local assets outright.
What we really need is a WTO-like arrangement, but only for the countries that "play by the rules", and punitive tariffs on everything that comes outside.
You should listen to the This American Life program Mr. Daisey and the Apple Factory?
That's the surprising thing about these huge factories. There is no automation. Full of workers, and totally quiet - no machines. Why pay for automation when you can get super cheap labor to put the damn things together by hand?
...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
Are you saying that billions in profit won't pay for better salary and waste disposal? 10k workers at 50k$ is 0.5bil$ per year.
Foxconn employs a million people, not 10k, and their profit is around $1000/worker/year.
Here is the main problem with these rants against using Chinese labor:
China's GDP/Capita after adjustment for inflation and purchasing power is still just a bit lower than America in 1890. Thats America 120 years ago. This idea that such a country can provide the same level of things that we in the rich part of the world enjoy is laughable. Every single rant against China always uses a scare number without any context. 17 suicides at Foxconn in 2010 for example. Thats a scare number with no context. Put it in context and its 1 suicide for every ~59000 employees per year, and adding more context we see that America has a suicide rate of 1 suicide for every ~9000 people per year.
The ranters cried about those 17 suicides, but failed to see the big picture. China is doing quite well for itself given its GDP/Capita. Their Human Development Index is on par with far richer countries. The ranters now cry because some of the employers there provide room and board on top of better than average pay? Really?
"His name was James Damore."
iPhones are not only sold in the USA. And besides, China will assemble electronics much cheaper than an American company. So if Apple was making its stuff in the USA, China would produce much cheaper goods, and sell those to you in the US again, and you would abandon your own brands to buy the cheaper and equal or better quality Chinese products. Don't believe me, look at what happened to your auto industry, and your consumer electronics industry.
Besides, this all sounds like protectionist bullshit. Americans want jobs, and they want them at the expense of Chinese workers, and on much higher salaries too. So they complain about how the Chinese are being treated, because lets face it, if Apple (or Del, or Microsoft or Walmart) was forced to pay comparable labour costs for Chinese labour, they would have no reason to produce in China, so China would remain poor.
Wages in China are already rising, and soon this won't be an issue, like it ceased to be an issue in Japan, and South Korea and Taiwan. It sounds mean to say it, but there is a generation of Chinese people who are never going to see prosperity, and not by their own fault. They were unlucky to be born before China became wealthy. They are barely educated, and can only do the most menial of work, for wages a fraction of what their counterparts in the West get. The next generation though will be much wealthier, will demand more and get more, and will compete on a more even footing with their Western counterparts. Then I guess it will be Africa's turn to become the world's factory, until the cycle completes, and maybe, just maybe, machines finally take over the boring rote work that we still need humans to do.
It is hypocritical. You are choosing one company to punish and assuage your 'conscience' whilst going to buy a product off another company that makes its product in the very same place, using the very same labour with the very same problems. Sounds more like picking on Apple. If I was being cynical, I would say Apple hasn't paid its dues enough to the media, maybe doesn't spend enough advertising dollars, or maybe isn't paying campaign contributions.