The Engineer Who Stopped Airplanes From Flying Into Mountains

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The Engineer Who Stopped Airplanes From Flying Into Mountains

Posted by samzenpus on Sunday February 5, 2012 @08:04PM from the just-pull-up dept.

New submitter gmrobbins writes "The Seattle Times profiles avionics engineer Don Bateman, whose Honeywell lab in Redmond, Washington has for decades pioneered ground proximity warning systems. Bateman's innovations have nearly eliminated controlled flight into terrain by commercial aircraft, the most common cause of fatal airplane accidents."

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Airplanes? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-05 20:10 · Score: 2, Funny

I think you mean "Aeroplanes".
1. Re:Airplanes? by Tubal-Cain · 2012-02-05 21:45 · Score: 1
  
  Why did this particular spelling die out?
2. Re:Airplanes? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-05 21:55 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  It didn't.
  Just in the USA.
3. Re:Airplanes? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-05 23:35 · Score: 0
  
  Australia uses airplane too...
4. Re:Airplanes? by gl4ss · 2012-02-05 23:39 · Score: 1
  
  nobody uses aero in everyday language nowadays, that's the reason.
  the reason is that Aero ltd. changed it's name to Finnair in '68.
  (Aero-filters? Aeroships? full of hot aero?)
  
  --
  world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
5. Re:Airplanes? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-06 00:31 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  Aeroengineering? Aerospace?
6. Re:Airplanes? by JustOK · 2012-02-06 00:43 · Score: 1
  
  It was W. Churchill. Same for aerodrome
  
  --
  rewriting history since 2109
7. Re:Airplanes? by asdf7890 · 2012-02-06 00:47 · Score: 3, Funny
  
  nobody uses aero in everyday language nowadays
  Once again I'm declared a nobody by slashdot. Should I just get it over with a book a flight to Switzerland now?!
8. Re:Airplanes? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-06 01:01 · Score: 0
  
  Australia always follows what the US does, good or bad.
  I think the rest of the British English speaking world uses aeroplane, and my spelling checker agrees with me (NZ English).
9. Re:Airplanes? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-06 01:13 · Score: 0
  
  nobody uses aero in everyday language nowadays
  Once again I'm declared a nobody by slashdot. Should I just get it over with a book a flight to Switzerland now?!
  Well, nobody is perfect. So what are you complaining about? :-)
10. Re:Airplanes? by robot256 · 2012-02-06 01:13 · Score: 4, Funny
  
  Only if you can find a suitable aeroline. ;-)
11. Re:Airplanes? by Kookus · 2012-02-06 01:13 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  Aerogel, aerodynamic, aeronautics, aerobic
12. Re:Airplanes? by JasterBobaMereel · 2012-02-06 01:21 · Score: 1
  
  It didn't ...
  Airplane : USA Only
  Aeroplane : The rest of the world ...
  By the way Red Hot Chili Peppers seem to think it is spelt Aeroplane ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroplane_(Red_Hot_Chili_Peppers_song)
  
  --
  Puteulanus fenestra mortis
13. Re:Airplanes? by Vaphell · 2012-02-06 01:55 · Score: 1
  
  yup, i've read today that Aussies are about to roll out body scanners (following the US) but there will be no opt-out (surpassing the US)
  U NO SCAN - U NO FLY
14. Re:Airplanes? by tomboalogo · 2012-02-06 01:57 · Score: 2
  
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aero_(chocolate)
15. Re:Airplanes? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-06 01:57 · Score: 0
  
  Following the lead of the most powerful and wealthiest nation on earth doesnt really seem like such a bad idea to me
16. Re:Airplanes? by 91degrees · 2012-02-06 01:58 · Score: 1
  
  To all the people pointing out this is a US only thing - So, when did this spelling die out in the US?
  
  I was surprised to hear the word "aeroplane" in the original King Kong, so it was evidently still in use in the 1930's.
17. Re:Airplanes? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-06 02:02 · Score: 0
  
  Aeroextraneousapostrophe? Aeropossessivepronoun?
18. Re:Airplanes? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-06 03:41 · Score: 0
  
  Unless you're South Korea mass-converting to Christianity and then harassing native Buddhists and vandalizing their temples just because you want your country to be "successful like USA, and different from Japan".
19. Re:Airplanes? by atrain728 · 2012-02-06 04:12 · Score: 1
  
  Aeroplane suits the melody of that song, where 3 syllables are necessary and 2 would just sound odd/not rhythmic . In fact, while many may write "aeroplane" and say "airplane" or very subtly include the third syllable, that song makes a point of enunciating the "o" because of the otherwise syllabic deficiency.
20. Re:Airplanes? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-06 04:48 · Score: 0
  
  Or because Finaero doesn't roll off the tongue?
  btw. They changed it in '53 because it had been nationalised (bought up by the Finnish Government) and governments like to put their stamp on such things. National pride and all that. So shortening it down from Finnish Airlines to Finnair isn't really a big leap. Because they didn't shorten it down from "Finnish aeroplanes" to Finnair.
  Didn't you ever notice this formula in national airline names?: [Country of origin] Air[lines/ways].
  Point is - in British English, it's "aero". And the change in Aero ltd.'s name was not to do with the use of the word "Aero".
21. Re:Airplanes? by M8e · 2012-02-06 05:56 · Score: 1
  
  Lines in the aero?
  Those are chemtrails!
22. Re:Airplanes? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-06 05:59 · Score: 0
  
  I would never go to Switzerland - it's so cold and high up that the aero is very thin and hard to breathe there.
23. Re:Airplanes? by AliasMarlowe · 2012-02-06 07:02 · Score: 1
  
  nobody uses aero in everyday language nowadays, that's the reason. the reason is that Aero ltd. changed it's name to Finnair in '68.
  Aerosmith and Aeroflot seem to be behind the times. Maybe they're used to it. But it's odd to juxtapose them in the same sentence.
  
  --
  Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
24. Re:Airplanes? by Darinbob · 2012-02-06 07:50 · Score: 1
  
  But only nobodies live there!
25. Re:Airplanes? by Darinbob · 2012-02-06 07:52 · Score: 1
  
  Webster was interested in creating an educated public, meaning the public of all classes. Whereas Britain at that time was only interested in educating the higher social strata.
26. Re:Airplanes? by FormOfActionBanana · 2012-02-06 10:54 · Score: 1
  
  Nobody uses asdf in everyday language nowadays.
  
  --
  Take off every 'sig' !!
27. Re:Airplanes? by Macgrrl · 2012-02-06 13:59 · Score: 1
  
  Great. Now I have a craving for their light bubbly chocolate. The dark chocoalte version is the best.
  I wonder what's in the vending machine in the break room this week...
  
  --
  Sara
  Designer, Gamer, Macgrrl in an XP World
28. Re:Airplanes? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-08 11:05 · Score: 0
  
  Australia uses airplane too...
  No, we don't. We do however tend to shorten a lot of words, so "aeroplane" is usually just a "plane".
And yet somehow by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-05 20:13 · Score: 5, Insightful

a low-tier banking executive makes more money than this man.
1. Re:And yet somehow by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-05 20:16 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  doesn't sound like he's really into it for the money
  that man is lucky -- he has a very long engineering career with a meaningful benefit to society
2. Re:And yet somehow by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-05 20:18 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  There are larger rewards in life than money
3. Re:And yet somehow by Osgeld · 2012-02-05 20:20 · Score: 0, Troll
  
  yep he will engineer till about age 40 then be replaced by a work visa from India or China, and wont even get a gold watch as he is booted out of the door
  sorry? whats the incentive? save lives? phht, only the planes that never hit mountains will be able to afford this crap once the suits get hold of it, meanwhile crop dusters will still be left out, sort of like how my cousins father (not my uncle ... one of those stories) died a couple years back
4. Re:And yet somehow by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-05 20:25 · Score: 1
  
  Sheesh... Would you like some salsa to go with that chip on your shoulder? You make me look like a ray of sunshine by comparison, which is remarkable btw.
5. Re:And yet somehow by Neil+Boekend · 2012-02-05 20:27 · Score: 2
  
  A man with such an accomplishment on his CV will always find a job.
  
  --
  Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
6. Re:And yet somehow by jholyhead · 2012-02-05 20:30 · Score: 1
  
  Only bad engineers get offshored. The good ones get kept on to manage the offshored employees.
7. Re:And yet somehow by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-05 20:45 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  Only bad engineers get offshored. The good ones get kept on to die a slow, painful death by managing the offshored employees.
  FTFY.
8. Re:And yet somehow by msobkow · 2012-02-05 20:50 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  Everyone talks about age discrimination as if it were real. I've had problems with a slow job market, but not with age discrimination. If anything, I've found more companies willing to do interviews in the past years than less.
  I'm starting a business because it's the right thing to do with the efforts I've made in my life and the cards I hold right now, not because I "can't find work." I could get a regular job, and be a wage slave for the rest of my life -- I choose not to.
  But then again, I'm still willing to put in as much effort as I can for my employers and customers, even if that's not as much clock time as it was 20 years ago.
  Maybe you should ask yourself a pertinent question the next time you think you were discriminated against on basis of age:
  
  Do I still act like a 20-something who thinks the world "owes" them and shoot myself in the foot with my own attitude?
  
  --
  I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
9. Re:And yet somehow by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-05 20:50 · Score: 0
  
  Shhh! Don't tell him.
10. Re:And yet somehow by X.25 · 2012-02-05 20:52 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  a low-tier banking executive makes more money than this man.
  Well, look at the "Forbes 400 list" of richest Americans, and see how many of 20 richest actually produce a physical product.
  And that's why system is about to collapse.
11. Re:And yet somehow by MacTO · 2012-02-05 20:55 · Score: 1
  
  For the most part, I agree with you. Thing is though, he's not going to have as much in the bank should something happen and he can't work any more.
12. Re:And yet somehow by geogob · 2012-02-05 20:57 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  I'm an engineer working in the field of aerospace instrumentation. I'm passionate about my job. For me, it's like playing a game and I can barely wait for the weekend to end to go back to work. In my team here, we're having a lot of fun and everyday gives us new challenges. Solving these challenges is quite exhilarating, probably just as it was for this engineer fight through the challenge of solving CFITs.
  But, in the end, we're still all in it for the money. We were just lucky enough to find a career and a job that we really happened to enjoy.
  I'm totally biased when I say this, but engineers are one of the profession that's grossly underpaid and under-regarded. Some investment make millions just by moving some virtual values - usually worthless - left and right on a computer screens, while engineers responsible for the success of projects worth in the multi-billion "real dollars" range, or indirectly responsible for countless lives, struggle to get decent salaries and usually don't even come close to 6 digit figures. What's even worse is that engineers carry a true responsibility for the success of their project. A personal responsibility. Bankers, when they fail because of their own greed, carry little responsibility as far as I know. Worse that could happen, is that they lose their job when the company goes down. That's nothing compared to what engineers have to face personally when they fail like that.
13. Re:And yet somehow by The+Evil+Atheist · 2012-02-05 21:23 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  That's what rich people tell themselves to allow themselves to sleep at night, and tell you to keep you where you belong. Libertarians talk about how the market will solve everything, but the market shows time and time again that it does not value the correct jobs. Don may not be in it for the money, but by all rights he should get more money as a matter of principle.
  
  --
  Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
14. Re:And yet somehow by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-05 21:24 · Score: 0, Flamebait
  
  Those rewards have all been banned by feminists and women over the past 150 years.
  There is nothing except money left.
15. Re:And yet somehow by jholyhead · 2012-02-05 21:30 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  No, you've made those assumptions on my behalf (thanks). No reasonable person could make those inferences from my comment.
  
  If someone else can do my job cheaper than I can, to the same standard or better than I can - I deserve to lose my job - that's the free market people are always raving about, isn't it.
  
  Fortunately, the Chinese haven't worked out how to transfer years of specialist domain experience into the heads of their worker drones yet. I'm good for another decade or so, in which time I'll have moved on.
16. Re:And yet somehow by Runaway1956 · 2012-02-05 21:42 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Just to be clear - what we have today is not "free trade" by any definition. NAFTA was a weapon, which was designed to pit Mexican workmen against United States workers. CAFTA is more of the same. And, China's "most favored trade partner" status was too.
  The corporate world is using us, all of us, as tools to destroy each other's livelihoods. Corporations in Mexico, South America, China, Africa, and the rest of the world are pushing family farmers out of business, so that those families have no choice but to emigrate, or turn to a life of crime to survive.
  All that cheap labor becomes available to undermine the economies of the first world nations.
  What we have today amounts to class warfare, with that infamous 1% stealing everything that belonged to the middle classes, lower classes, and even the subsistence level dirt poor of the world.
  Free trade, my ass. Who was it that made all these "free trade" agreements? Damned near no one in the 99% voted for any of it. Al Gore's constituents made it quite clear to him that they did NOT want anything to do with NAFTA, and his reply amounted to, "I'm sorry, but I know better, so I'm overriding your wishes."
  If this is "free trade", then I'm ready to try some socialism.
  
  --
  "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
17. Re:And yet somehow by Kell+Bengal · 2012-02-05 21:43 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  Damn right. And until society learns to value real productivity and demand that its engineers be paid what they're worth to society, nothing will change.
  
  I will also admit to bias - I'm also an engineering researcher (coincidentally, also specialising in aerial systems). And I love my job... but I think that might be part of the problem. If engineering wasn't as fun and creative and fulfilling, nobody would do it for what's being paid. It seems to me that perhaps if we weren't willling to do it for the love of it, maybe we would get paid more... but then someone else would just step right in. Again, I think that unless society is prepared to paid for less-stressed and more productive engineers, we're stuck.
  
  --
  Scientists point out problems, engineers fix them
  altslashdot.org: The future of slashdot.
18. Re:And yet somehow by ZeroExistenZ · 2012-02-05 22:10 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  A man with such an accomplishment on his CV will always find a job.
  You must be a youngling.
  I have an impressive CV. Each job or client they allow me to do more difficult and complex things.
  In your carreer, if you give your maximum you won't come into a comfortable zone: each other job I need to give maximum (to maintain what I have on my record) PLUS the extra edge expected "for someone with such a CV".
  There are moments you cannot keep it up though, and your energy levels and determination can't keep up with your CV. After 10 years carreer in misc fields (advertizing, finance, mobile, retail, ...) I burned out. I haven't cashed in my CV and will need to perform at the same level to embody my CV.
  If you want to take a step back (my exgf worked 10 years in finance, wanting to get out) you'll hear "You are overqualified for this job".
  
  --
  I think we can keep recursing like this until someone returns 1
19. Re:And yet somehow by eh2o · 2012-02-05 22:18 · Score: 0
  
  That's because banking executives prevent ordinary citizens from making controlled descents into financial ruin... oh wait never mind, they don't do that either.
20. Re:And yet somehow by GuB-42 · 2012-02-05 23:08 · Score: 1
  
  Good engineers are precious, and companies that are not total crap are ready to pay good money to get them.
  He may be replaced by a work visa from India or China but if he does, the "work visa" will be a highly skilled engineer that will be paid as much as an American citizen in the same league.
  Only low skill work is off-shored for cost reasons.
21. Re:And yet somehow by Ihmhi · 2012-02-05 23:25 · Score: 2
  
  I'm starting a business because it's the right thing to do with the efforts I've made in my life and the cards I hold right now, not because I "can't find work." I could get a regular job, and be a wage slave for the rest of my life -- I choose not to.
  Why are your options "don't work" or "wage slave"? Is there a reason you couldn't command a higher salary with your experience?
  Perhaps "Experience & Salary Demands Discrimination" would be more accurate...
  
  --
  Random Thoughts From A Diseased Mind (Not For Dummies)
22. Re:And yet somehow by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-05 23:44 · Score: 0
  
  Yes, it it "free trade". "Free", doesn't means free for everyone, or equal for everyone. "Free trade" just means "no rules trade" or "self-regulating trade".
23. Re:And yet somehow by gl4ss · 2012-02-05 23:46 · Score: 1
  
  well there's still booze.. ...which isn't that useful if you can't properly booze up due to medical conditions..
  
  --
  world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
24. Re:And yet somehow by Waccoon · 2012-02-05 23:50 · Score: 1
  
  Like a budget increase, so you can do your job more effectively.
25. Re:And yet somehow by Sleuth · 2012-02-06 00:17 · Score: 1
  
  That's hilarious. He's already 80.
26. Re:And yet somehow by garrettg84 · 2012-02-06 00:25 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  If someone else can do my job cheaper than I can, to the same standard or better than I can - I deserve to lose my job - that's the free market people are always raving about, isn't it.
  You have entirely failed to recognize the stupidity of our MBAs that are often in control of these jobs. The qualification for offshoring jobs is not 'cheaper, same/better standard or faster'. It is simply CHEAPER. These MBA types run companies into the ground regularly going for the cheapest alternative with no quality control or time requirements.
  
  Now don't get me wrong, I don't assume those jobs offshore are always terrible either. They very well may be able to deliver on time, above/on spec, and much cheaper than American labor. From what I have seen - it is a crap shoot. Similar things can be said about American contractors as well though, but in America - you have the legal system and can sue the contractor out of existence if they screw you!
  
  --
  -g
27. Re:And yet somehow by gshegosh · 2012-02-06 00:42 · Score: 1
  
  There are larger rewards in life than money
  Sure, but you need money to buy them ;-)
28. Re:And yet somehow by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-06 00:42 · Score: 0
  
  Yeah, and he has no plans to retire since his Honeywell retirement plans sucks. Surprising Honeywell has not outsourced him to India. They sure have done well at decimating the engineering jobs at the KS avionics facility.
29. Re:And yet somehow by u38cg · 2012-02-06 00:56 · Score: 1
  
  The job of the financial system is to allocate capital efficiently. If it doesn't do that, none of your multi-million dollar projects would ever see the light of day. Yes, there's plenty wrong with the system, but to misrepresent it as "moving virtual worthless values around" is just complete rubbish.
  
  --
  [FUCK BETA]
30. Re:And yet somehow by Twinbee · 2012-02-06 00:59 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  And that's why we all need a "basic income" which is basically an unconditional amount given to everyone (with their only requirement being their citizenship).
  
  The rich will still keep rich and people will still have a massive incentive to work (we can set the basic income perhaps quarter to half the amount of a normal job).
  
  It's inevitable anyway once automation comes into force more strongly, and frees our time up. Tons of people will simply not be 'needed' (i.e. not needed to be slaves to the 9-5) any more, and I'm talking about even very skilled workers here, as well as those more menial jobs. We can start the basic income at a low amount and gradually increase it over time.
  
  --
  Why OpalCalc is the best Windows calc
31. Re:And yet somehow by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-06 01:24 · Score: 0
  
  ...then why not "downgrade" him to the "smaller" reward of a 7-figure income? Think he would mind? :-)
32. Re:And yet somehow by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-06 01:27 · Score: 0
  
  I know... we do it for the chicks... Oh wait... This is Slashdot.
33. Re:And yet somehow by jholyhead · 2012-02-06 01:28 · Score: 2
  
  All true, but I wont work for idiots lest it turn out to be contagious.
  
  And yes, I do realise that I am lucky to be able to make such a choice.
34. Re:And yet somehow by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-06 01:32 · Score: 1
  
  "The rich will still keep rich and people will still have a massive incentive to work (we can set the basic income perhaps quarter to half the amount of a normal job)."
  And the cost of living will Increase by that amount overnight.
  You do not realize how greedy corporations are here in the USA.
35. Re:And yet somehow by brucmack · 2012-02-06 01:33 · Score: 1
  
  This may be somewhat cultural... My experiences here in northern Europe are that engineers are respected and paid accordingly.
  Based on what I read on /. and other tech sites, it seems that the US in general has neglected the sciences for the last few decades, which may explain the status of the engineering profession.
36. Re:And yet somehow by Lumpy · 2012-02-06 01:34 · Score: 2
  
  "Why are your options "don't work" or "wage slave"? Is there a reason you couldn't command a higher salary with your experience?"
  How cute... someone who thinks that Promotions are based on knowledge and experience...
  
  --
  Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
37. Re:And yet somehow by GameboyRMH · 2012-02-06 01:39 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  Yes what would we ever do without swarms of HFT servers sucking the value out of the market within milliseconds, before humans could ever react.
  
  --
  "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
38. Re:And yet somehow by DerekLyons · 2012-02-06 01:45 · Score: 2
  
  Libertarians talk about how the market will solve everything, but the market shows time and time again that it does not value the correct jobs.
  Of course, which job is the 'correct' one varies with the speaker.
  
  Don may not be in it for the money, but by all rights he should get more money as a matter of principle.
  Why? He's just one of anything from dozens to hundreds or more people on the project. The linked article hews to the "lone heroic engineer" myth... But you don't build a product like that and get it installed as widely as it is alone. (Hint: There's a corporate name associated with his lab. Did you stop and wonder why that may be?)
39. Re:And yet somehow by slater.jay · 2012-02-06 01:50 · Score: 1
  
  People have been saying this for more than a century, and it still hasn't become true.
40. Re:And yet somehow by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-06 01:51 · Score: 0
  
  Did you stop and wonder why that may be?
  Because the lone heroic executive is the one on the golf course shaking the hands and doing the deals that get things done.
41. Re:And yet somehow by micheas · 2012-02-06 01:55 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  Interestingly pro athletes and entertainers are unionized.
  Dockworkers in Oakland CA typically make in the low six figures, but that is also a very unionized environment.
  The dock workers struck a few years ago because they were being replaced by computer techs that were non-union and getting about a third of what the union workers were (the result of the strike is that the computer professionals at the port are now union scale.
  Something to think about anyways.
  
  --
  Work bio at MMWD
42. Re:And yet somehow by swillden · 2012-02-06 02:25 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  I'm totally biased when I say this, but engineers are one of the profession that's grossly underpaid and under-regarded. Some investment make millions just by moving some virtual values - usually worthless - left and right on a computer screens, while engineers responsible for the success of projects worth in the multi-billion "real dollars" range, or indirectly responsible for countless lives, struggle to get decent salaries and usually don't even come close to 6 digit figures.
  I think you're comparing averages to outliers.
  An analogous comparison would be to look at drama majors and assume they all make crazy money because A-list Hollywood actors are millionaires. There are large numbers of people who study finance and business -- and are good at it -- but who don't have the particular breed of genius mixed with insanity required to succeed in Wall Street, which is the pinnacle of that career field.
  In my field, software, there are plenty of millionaire engineers, and a few billionaires. They made their money as much by luck, being in the right place at the right time with the right ideas, as by skill and hard work, but that's also true of the Wall Street types. Oh, and the software "outliers" have orders of magnitude more money than the Wall Street types.
  Further, those millionaire investment bankers don't make money by just taking a nice, safe and predictable salary... their compensation is almost entirely performance-based, and the nature of their business is that performing well requires taking risks. If those risks don't pan out, they get very little and lose their jobs. Lots of people go that route and wash out, but we don't hear about them. The analogous sort in the software field is the guys who spend their careers in Silicon Valley, hopping from startup to startup, working insane hours for peanuts plus worthless stock, hoping that this time the stock becomes valuable. I don't know what the analogous risk-taking, shoot-for-the-moon career path looks like in, say, aviation engineering, but working for Boeing isn't it.
  I think there are plenty of opportunities for engineers to make huge money by taking big risks. There are also plenty of opportunities for engineers to make a decent living working 40-50 hours per week, doing what they like, with a paycheck that shows up like clockwork. It's also important to keep in mind that the lower stress of the steady paycheck is also a form of compensation, and not a trivial one. It's huge if you want to have a family and to be involved in your kids' lives, for example.
  
  --
  Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
43. Re:And yet somehow by trout007 · 2012-02-06 02:35 · Score: 2
  
  Since when did we have a free market? The only reason the financial industry makes the money they do is because they literally make the money. If we had hard money and 100% reserve banking they wouldn't be able to make money and would have to earn money.
  
  --
  I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
44. Re:And yet somehow by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-06 02:51 · Score: 0
  
  Knowledge and experience of the male rectum, yes.
45. Re:And yet somehow by CmdrChaos · 2012-02-06 02:56 · Score: 1
  
  "How cute... someone who thinks that Promotions are based on knowledge and experience..." Thy are... Just not the knowledge and experience you have...
46. Re:And yet somehow by msobkow · 2012-02-06 03:04 · Score: 1
  
  A higher salary doesn't mean you get what your work is worth to the company or organization who is paying you.
  Getting a bigger crumb from the pie doesn't mean you're tasting any filling.
  
  --
  I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
47. Re:And yet somehow by TheLink · 2012-02-06 03:07 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  One of the arguments against "basic income" is it may reduce the incentive to work. But that's assuming that everyone has to work.
  
  If robots and other automation can do the jobs, why should a few take everything and become ultra-rich, assuming the resulting increased productivity can actually provide basic income for everyone?
  
  If you're in the IT line, you're taking part in the process of replacing more and more humans with automation.
  
  You might be one of those who objects if some/much of the resulting productivity or $$$ gets transferred to providing basic income for everyone, but are you really happier with the current situation where some/much of the resulting $$$ gets transferred to making a few people filthy rich? I'd personally prefer the basic income thing. Just seems more civilized. And you could still have filthy rich people...
  
  Perhaps if you still need to encourage people to contribute, make it so that if you want to vote, you need to have worked a certain number of hours within 5 years. But a rich person or great contributor still only gets one vote.
  
  If you want to have say, you have to contribute,
  otherwise you are a (hopefully well-treated) _pet_ of Advanced Human Civilization, with no votes.
  
  Might not be a good idea to disenfranchise people like that, but it's just a suggestion :).
  --
  
  Too many replies beneath your current threshold
48. Re:And yet somehow by hey! · 2012-02-06 03:09 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  I recently met an engineer who developed the architecture and led the design of several widely deployed electronic systems. I don't want to mention the names (so as not to embarrass anyone) but they're systems that generate a quarter billion dollars in revenue annually and which you've almost certainly heard of.
  *He* can't get a job, because of his age and (ironically) because his resume is so impressive. People are afraid to hire him.
  Now to be fair this guy pretty much radiates "engineer". He comes across as gruff, cynical and impatient, and he dresses a little oddly. He might have some tendency towards Asperger's; he listens intently to what is said but doesn't seem to be aware of body language. But still, even considering that, this shows that the fond belief engineers have that a track record of success will magically open doors for them in their career is baloney. This guy built more than one "better mousetrap", and he can't even get a job interview.
  The reason this guy hasn't been able to get a job for several years is that he doesn't want to network. He sees shmoozing as a stupid waste of time, because it's not how *he* would hire someone to do a job. But at his career stage it's the *only* way he'll get another job, because otherwise his resume will only land on the desk of people who see his ability and experience as a threat. He's got to hit the cocktail party circuit -- events where tech entrepreneurs hang out -- because *that's* where he'll find people eager to bring someone like him on board.
  
  --
  Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
49. Re:And yet somehow by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-06 03:10 · Score: 0
  
  Clever...
  Knowlege of the people who are in a position to give the advancement. And experience of stuffing one's nose up the butt crack of said individuals...
  I like you, you have balls.
  I like balls..
50. Re:And yet somehow by ArsonSmith · 2012-02-06 03:15 · Score: 2
  
  There is no "value" in that system to begin with. That's like saying there's value in a Vegas slot machine. Sure you can walk away with more money that you started with, but you didn't actually create anything. You are merely wallet voting for the people you feel may be able to create value.
  
  --
  Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
51. Re:And yet somehow by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-06 03:31 · Score: 0
  
  This has nothing to do with any 'benefit to society', the man did what he wanted, not something that any 'society' needed, and there is no such thing as society.
52. Re:And yet somehow by garrettg84 · 2012-02-06 03:45 · Score: 1
  
  I wish we could all be this lucky! I also fall into the category of not having a supervisory chain dumb enough to outsource our jobs. These jobs are far and few between from what I can tell though. +1 to you.
  
  --
  -g
53. Re:And yet somehow by Tokolosh · 2012-02-06 04:16 · Score: 1
  
  These MBA types run companies into the ground regularly going for the cheapest alternative with no quality control or time requirements.
  If the MBAs run the company into the ground, they they will also be out of a job, too? So the system works.
  You need to cite some evidence to back up "regularly".
  
  --
  Prove anything by multiplying Huge Number times Tiny Number
54. Re:And yet somehow by roeguard · 2012-02-06 05:13 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  As someone who has read resumes and done some hiring, its not that you see an overqualified person as a threat; you see them as a very expensive potential asset that is way overkill for the job you need done, and a unwise use of your limited budget.
  You get the exact same issues when choosing a new platform for some internal project: do you go with the $1000 option, that does exactly what you need and nothing more, or the $100k option that does what you need as an configurable module in an expandable architecture (blah blah)?
  If you don't need something, than you won't want to pay for it. Simple as that.
55. Re:And yet somehow by roeguard · 2012-02-06 05:21 · Score: 1
  
  And how many people here actually produce something physical?
  Unless you're working on the assembly line, chances are you mostly just move numbers around in a computer. Those numbers may mean something to you, but they're still numbers.
  Maybe you re-configure something someone else made. Run some cables, perhaps? Assemble components? I suppose you could call that "producing a physical product."
  The reality is hardly anyone, especially in high tech, actually makes anything anymore. The lack of a direct physical product from your own hands does not mean you aren't a productive person, or making contributions to society.
56. Re:And yet somehow by u38cg · 2012-02-06 05:24 · Score: 1
  
  The value they provide is that of market liquidity and price arbitrage. In short, they ensure the market is correctly priced.
  
  --
  [FUCK BETA]
57. Re:And yet somehow by GameboyRMH · 2012-02-06 05:36 · Score: 1
  
  I think day traders do a good enough job of that.
  
  --
  "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
58. Re:And yet somehow by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-06 05:42 · Score: 0
  
  if *HFT* were providing liquidity the markets wouldn't have needed Quantitative Easing (two rounds! and the HFT owners are pulling hard for round three).
59. Re:And yet somehow by Twinbee · 2012-02-06 05:45 · Score: 1
  
  Funny, I thought of the pet thing a few days ago too. Of course, in a sense we're all 'pets' to a degree since we rely so much on existing infrastructure and relatively cheap energy/food (at least for many). Over time, we'll all be pets even more if enough stuff is automated (fusion, AI, self-driving vehicles...).
  
  --
  Why OpalCalc is the best Windows calc
60. Re:And yet somehow by khallow · 2012-02-06 05:58 · Score: 1
  
  Hmmm, not sure what point you're trying to make here. I count at least five in the top ten. And another nine in the next ten. Of course, I consider software (eg, Microsoft and Oracle) or service (eg, all those "Walmart" heirs) just as much a physical product as "candy".
61. Re:And yet somehow by TheLink · 2012-02-06 06:18 · Score: 1
  
  See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture#Biological_citizens
  If we develop post-humans and/or strong AI (and hit that "singularity" thing) in the wrong environment/culture, we normal humans won't be pets. We'd more likely be worshippers+slaves, livestock or vermin.
  --
  
  Too many replies beneath your current threshold
62. Re:And yet somehow by mcgrew · 2012-02-06 06:29 · Score: 1
  
  If someone else can do my job cheaper than I can, to the same standard or better than I can - I deserve to lose my job - that's the free market people are always raving about, isn't it.
  You young people... sheesh. What happened to the old values? What happened to retiring with a generous pension? What happened to good paychecks? What happened to seniority?
  I'll tell you -- the goddamned greedy Gen-Xers took over, and convinced the rest of you pups that they were right. I'm glad I'm no longer young, because if things keep going the way they have, America's going to be an intolerably shitty place by the time you kids are my age.
  H1B visas are BAD for workers, period. Nobody should get an H1B visa unless there is nobody in the US capable of doing the job. India and China are eating America, and its leaders (political and economic) are letting them.
  Now get off my lawn. And no, you can't have your ball back.
  
  --
  Free Martian Whores!
63. Re:And yet somehow by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-06 06:33 · Score: 0
  
  ask them what salary there willing to work for. maybe there one of those people that wants to "step back" like someone else mentioned instead of burning out.
64. Re:And yet somehow by RoknrolZombie · 2012-02-06 06:36 · Score: 1
  
  Yet surprisingly they don't pay as well...
65. Re:And yet somehow by slew · 2012-02-06 07:05 · Score: 1
  
  Further, those millionaire investment bankers don't make money by just taking a nice, safe and predictable salary... their compensation is almost entirely performance-based, and the nature of their business is that performing well requires taking risks. If those risks don't pan out, they get very little and lose their jobs. Lots of people go that route and wash out, but we don't hear about them.
  Many of those millionaire investment bankers aren't taking risks with their money. They are taking risks and getting rewarded based on "expected-value" payments based on the leverage for those risks (commission is essentially a percentage of expected-value). The actual risks are borne by the people that actually have the money invested, but they have already payed out the commission when the deals close. The problem with this is that sometimes the "research" or "models" they have to support the "expected-value" is often done in collusion (e.g., CDOs and the risk rating agencies). That is the real difference.
  Say if someone writes a paper on how my new avionics architecture will save lots of money and I show that paper to some avionics design house and they pay me up-front on a percentage of that potential savings in advance (say buys my patent), then that's the same model as the investment banker. However, if I have to go start a company and build the device and only get rewarded if the company is a success, well that's an engineering model. Notice that how easy that first model works if I'm in collusion with the author of the paper or say write the paper myself...
  
  I don't know what the analogous risk-taking, shoot-for-the-moon career path looks like in, say, aviation engineering, but working for Boeing isn't it.
  
  Maybe it's SpaceX or Scaled Composites...
66. Re:And yet somehow by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-06 07:12 · Score: 0
  
  I hear you about the treatment of engineers, not least that many are regarded as social misfits. A old friend who's a civil engineer was out of work for 2 years back in the 80's taking any job she could find, including 6 months working a hotdog stand.
  This was someone who'd designed Arctic drilling platforms. She was truly disgusted to find that most full-time waitresses made more money that she did in her chosen career.
67. Re:And yet somehow by ChrisMaple · 2012-02-06 07:25 · Score: 1
  
  The types of ultrawealthy are pretty diversified. http://www.forbes.com/wealth/billionaires/list. 2 of the top 5 are software, but there's industrial, financial, steel, and retail. If the 4 Walton heirs in the top 25 were combined, they'd top the list.
  
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68. Re:And yet somehow by Nethead · 2012-02-06 07:30 · Score: 1
  
  If you live near Puget Sound you know about this union:
  Society of Professional Engineering Employees in Aerospace (SPEEA)
  http://www.speea.org/
  
  --
  -- I have a private email server in my basement.
69. Re:And yet somehow by hey! · 2012-02-06 08:34 · Score: 1
  
  I'm going to give you three compelling reasons why you should at least extend the courtesy of an interview to any highly experienced engineers who apply for a position you're hiring for.
  (1) You don't know what the engineer wants. He might not be looking for so much money. And older workers are more stable, saving you the costs of hiring. If he insists on more money than you've budgeted, all you have to do is tell him you aren't going that high and he'll withdraw.
  (2) People who can't do the job are never a bargain. Of course you know that. But people who have proven they can do the job are nearly always a bargain. There's an enormous gap between the most capable workers and the average worker, and somebody with a track record is a known quantity.
  (3) If the engineer is over forty, and you eliminate him on the basis of his experience, you have just committed a violation of federal law and opened your company up to an expensive discrimination lawsuit. You heard that right, all you white-male victims of reverse discrimination out there: when you hit forty you're officially in a protected class, just like a disabled African-American/Latino married woman veteran.
  In fact, roeguard, by discussing your candidate screening philosophy here you've committed an indiscretion. If somebody managed to trace back your Slashdot user name to your identity it could come back to haunt you. It's not likely to happen, but unless you're speaking anonymously there's only one safe thing to say about why you don't hire certain candidates: "We had many outstanding applicants and it was a shame we couldn't interview/hire them all."
  
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  Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
70. Re:And yet somehow by hey! · 2012-02-06 08:41 · Score: 1
  
  The reason this guy hasn't been able to get a job for several years is that he doesn't want to network.
  He's antisocial and he can't get a job? Cry me a river.
  I once worked for a well-intentioned liberal boss who was big on diversity. He wanted a distribution of Asians, African-Americans, LGBT people, and ethnicities working for him, but except for me he hired everyone out of the same graduate department at the same university, and everyone (except me) were the children of middle class professional parents.
  As for this guy I'm talking about, I think interviewers probably had the same reaction you did -- this guy's anti-social. He's not. He's *differently* social. He maybe isn't so strong on reading body language, but he's very good at *hearing what is actually said*. That'd bring real diversity to a team.
  
  --
  Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
71. Re:And yet somehow by roc97007 · 2012-02-06 09:28 · Score: 1
  
  > The reason this guy hasn't been able to get a job for several years is that he doesn't want to network. He sees shmoozing as a stupid waste of time, because it's not how *he* would hire someone to do a job.
  My response might be, the moment it's him hiring he can use any criteria with which he's comfortable, but if he's trying to *get* a job, what's important is how *others* would hire someone to do a job. As an engineer, he should be able to see the correlation.
  "Shmoozing", ass-kissing and generally being un-genuine is really not necessary. (At least in engineering.) Networking, for the most part, is. It's not necessary to keep your soul in a box in the basement in order to keep in touch with professionals in your own field. If you want to be a loner, you should be prepared to be alone. It doesn't pay well.
  
  --
  Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
72. Re:And yet somehow by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-06 09:29 · Score: 0
  
  There are larger rewards in life than money
  Yes but they won't get you good housing, health care, food and opportunities to experience many of those rewards for you and your family. It's all well and good to say there's more important things in the world than money, but it's only true if you have enough to begin with.
73. Re:And yet somehow by roc97007 · 2012-02-06 09:32 · Score: 1
  
  "Good" being defined not necessarily as being good at engineering, but being good at managing offshore junior engineers, who do the trivial work and get stuck on anything for which there isn't an existing template or procedure.
  Although in my perception, any offshoring requires the local retention (usually as contractors) of a few really good engineers, who have to do all the non-trivial work that an order-of-magnitude-larger department used to do.
  
  --
  Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
74. Re:And yet somehow by mcgrew · 2012-02-06 09:43 · Score: 1
  
  Good luck with that, especially since you have people arguing against a minimum WAGE.
  It will have to come, of course, but there will be mayhem before it does. I sincerely doubt I'll ever see it.
  
  --
  Free Martian Whores!
75. Re:And yet somehow by PlusFiveTroll · 2012-02-06 09:49 · Score: 1
  
  I do believe you're wrong. Values come in negative amounts too. Feeding a disease can kill the host.
76. Re:And yet somehow by Twinbee · 2012-02-06 09:51 · Score: 1
  
  I love the way you say it will have to come eventually even if we don't see it in our lifetimes. :)
  
  Still, I reckon about 30 years tops. I doubt the mayhem bit though, well at least not any worse than any big financial change in the past 30 years.
  
  --
  Why OpalCalc is the best Windows calc
77. Re:And yet somehow by mcgrew · 2012-02-06 09:52 · Score: 1
  
  What's even worse is that engineers carry a true responsibility for the success of their project. A personal responsibility. Bankers, when they fail because of their own greed, carry little responsibility as far as I know.
  The difference is, when the banker screws up, only money is lost. If you screw up lives could be lost, environments wrecked, all sorts of mayhem. I agree that engineers are underpaid, and also think bankers are WAY overpaid.
  When was the last time somebody died from a bank error? OTOH, look at BT and the Gulf. Or Challenger. Or a million other engineering disasters.
  
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  Free Martian Whores!
78. Re:And yet somehow by u38cg · 2012-02-06 10:01 · Score: 1
  
  If they did, the HFT crowd wouldn't exist.
  
  --
  [FUCK BETA]
79. Re:And yet somehow by u38cg · 2012-02-06 10:03 · Score: 1
  
  Wait, what? Those are two not even slightly related issues. This is why discussing finance and economics on /. is so frustrating; the sheer depth of ignorance on display mixed with the arrogance of the Java coder with three years experience.
  
  --
  [FUCK BETA]
80. Re:And yet somehow by swillden · 2012-02-06 10:59 · Score: 1
  
  Many of those millionaire investment bankers aren't taking risks with their money.
  I didn't say it was their money they were risking, I said it was their income/jobs. I understand your point that in some situations the commissions are essentially pre-paid, but how long does an investment banker who continues losing money keep getting paid?
  
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  Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
81. Re:And yet somehow by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-06 11:05 · Score: 0
  
  Wait, what? Those are two not even slightly related issues. This is why discussing finance and economics on /. is so frustrating; the sheer depth of ignorance on display mixed with the arrogance of the Java coder with three years experience.
  No, just the arrogance of a public-sector economist with 40 years experience (and that's a lot more arrogance than possessed by a Java coder with three years experience).
  No less august an economist than William C. Dudley, President and Chief Executive Officer of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York labelled(http://www.newyorkfed.org/newsevents/speeches/2009/dud090418.html) the TAF, the TSLF, the PDCF and subsequent QE1 and QE2 as " The Federal Reserve's Liquidity Facilities" specifically designed "to provide liquidity to banks and dealers." The post to which I was responding claimed that "the value [HFTs] provide is that of market liquidity."
  If HFTs were actually providing market liquidity the Fed would not have been backed into enacting trillions of dollars to provide market liquidity. The truth is that HFTs cease to function in the absence of market liquidity; HFTs do not create market liquidity, they only exploit the existing market liquidity to siphon profits from investors in to the pockets of traders.
82. Re:And yet somehow by The+Evil+Atheist · 2012-02-06 11:09 · Score: 1
  
  Since when did we have a free market? The only reason the financial industry makes the money they do is because they literally make the money. If we had hard money and 100% reserve banking they wouldn't be able to make money and would have to earn money.
  That's always the excuse. That's the problem with Libertarian philosophy in general: "if things were perfect, things would work perfectly". Under a completely free market, what you excuse is COMPLETELY WITHIN the concept of a free market. You are free to sell whatever it is you want if there is a buyer. "Hard money" requires a GOVERNMENT to actually give it a value for tender, whether that government is a democratically elected one, or a corporate one. Do you know what's the ultimate free market? Evolution by natural selection. Seriously, it's like libertarians argue that in nature, everything plays nice and within the rules. We had a free market. And that naturally evolved into what we have today. The first "winners" of the original free market, we called the chief of the tribe. Then we called them kings and nobles. This is what things do: they evolve to survive, and the fact that we don't have a free market is proof that a free market evolves to become non-free ALL THE TIME. So again, the problem with Libertarian philosophy is: "if things were perfect, things would work perfectly".
  
  --
  Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
83. Re:And yet somehow by The+Evil+Atheist · 2012-02-06 11:12 · Score: 1
  
  I like how we've conflated "making deals" with "getting things done". In today's economy, that often means "getting things done in another country".
  
  --
  Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
84. Re:And yet somehow by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-06 11:16 · Score: 0
  
  yes, that unions suck thats what i was thinking about
85. Re:And yet somehow by slew · 2012-02-06 12:29 · Score: 1
  
  Many of those millionaire investment bankers aren't taking risks with their money.
  I didn't say it was their money they were risking, I said it was their income/jobs. I understand your point that in some situations the commissions are essentially pre-paid, but how long does an investment banker who continues losing money keep getting paid?
  I think you may be missing the main point. The typical deal an investment banker does is say set up a deal that matches investors with investment vehicles (corporations for sale, derivative securities, etc). These deals are measured in millions of dollars. The investment bank charges a percentage fee to broker these transactions and bankers get a commission on that fee. The company that employs the investment banker gets the fee regardless of how well the investment turns out for the investors. Thus any investment banker that continues to close deals generates revenue for the investment bank regardless of how well the investments went thus they continue to get paid.
  There is a small issue on the "buy-side" of an investment bank in that if the broker continues to recommend investement strategies that do no perform, that broker may get "fired" by the investor, but there is usually enough business on the "sell-side" of the investment bank to make up for that. Note that many of the deals made by investment banks are confidential, so it's tough to research if the broker is doing well or not.
  As a specific example, derivative securitized debt obligations in home morgages were both aggressively sold to investors, and investors were often just specifically asking brokers for this investment and this activity fueled the run-up to the 2008 collapse. Like the "house" in las vegas, the investment banks (and thus the investment bankers) made out skimming the action during this run-up. Just like the real-estate agent that sold houses in 2007 at inflated prices. They got their commissions, regardless of how the value of the house held up and how good of an investment it was.
  Of course now that the market is down, lots of folks lost their jobs, but it wasn't necessarily the same folks that gave any specific advice. So what is the motivation for them to give any good investment advice as long as they are closing deals and making money for the firm? Why not get investors to take the maximum risk where the investment bank generates the most profit?
86. Re:And yet somehow by garrettg84 · 2012-02-06 12:46 · Score: 1
  
  I would rather you show me evidence of an MBA with a long term plan besides padding his own bank account. Show me one that isn't protected by severance packages and bonuses even when the company fails to make a profit.
  
  You need to cite some evidence to back up "regularly".
  Google search for the auto industry or financial industry. Even if I cited references you shouldn't be reading them, this is slashdot.
  
  --
  -g
87. Re:And yet somehow by swillden · 2012-02-06 12:55 · Score: 1
  
  So what you're saying is that the positions you're describing are typical commissioned sales jobs, but with higher stakes.
  
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88. Re:And yet somehow by toddestan · 2012-02-06 13:17 · Score: 1
  
  If by that you mean they make sure the buyer pays a higher price and the seller gets a lower price because they inject themselves as middlemen to take their cut, then yes. Because that's what they do. They don't act until they have a seller and a buyer and a price difference in their favor. They provide zero liquidity. I don't know why people keep on propagating the lie that they do.
89. Re:And yet somehow by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-06 19:00 · Score: 0
  
  So what you're saying is that the positions you're describing are typical commissioned sales jobs, but with higher stakes.
  Almost... It's like the typical stock broker is the retail operation, and the investment bankers are selling distributorships for stocks. I guess you can call that higher stakes.Sales people are usually selling things that have liquid value (can sell immediatly), investment bankers are selling stuff that has illiquid value. For example, the value of a cocacola distributorship isn't the retail value of the cans of coke they have in the warehouse plus the value of the warehouse (although you can denominate them both in dollars). It isn't the magnitude of the stakes, the stakes are different.
  A typical sales guy working for a cocacola distributorship might sell 1M cans of cola to a restaurant chain and get 1% commission on the contract. He might negotiate a contract for $100K and get $1,000 commission. If he somehow got that restaurant to pay $110K, he would get $100 more to put in his pocket. The restaurant can call around and see what other folks are paying for cans of coke or pepsi and even though they might be paying 1cent more per can, they might think that it's still worth it to get their delivery now instead of shopping around for a better price. They are probably only risking the marginal amount (the $10K) anyhow as inventory of cola is a fairly "liquid" investment. If they ordered too much, they can probably just sell them to someone else. A retail stock broker is very similar. On the other hand, the investment banker negotiates a deal for HP to buy Palm for $1.2B and gets $12M dollars in commission if she's getting 1% on that contract. However, Palm may not be worth $1.2B, but that's not her problem, that's HP's problem. How did she come up with the value $1.2B for HP to pay? Well, I'm sure that price was well researched by someone who was paid by her investment banking firm. If HP didn't buy Palm, well there isn't really any other comparable and HP doesn't know what other potential investors may or may not be bidding. Maybe Palm isn't even worth $1.2B, who knows, but she knows she's gonna get that $12M commission. She also knows HP probably won't be looking for another Palm again, and she can always do some "sell-side" brokering for Yahoo when they want to put themselves up for sale, after all she got HP to pay $1.2B for Palm, she must be good. Who was that person anyhow?
90. Re:And yet somehow by trout007 · 2012-02-07 02:09 · Score: 1
  
  " "Hard money" requires a GOVERNMENT to actually give it a value for tender, whether that government is a democratically elected one, or a corporate one."
  You have that completely backwards. The ONLY way to have fiat money is to have laws that force you to use it. Otherwise free people will naturally use money that has intrinsic worth.
  I think you confuse libertarian with anarchy.
  
  --
  I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
91. Re:And yet somehow by u38cg · 2012-02-07 03:23 · Score: 1
  
  It would be more appropriate to describe the fed's actions as providing capacity, not liquidity. Market liquidity is not really an issue and never has been; HFT simply increases it. Besides, HFT tends to be carried out on more volatile securities, such as stocks and options. HFT on bonds is done, but it's a lot more boring as the underlying bonds don't move much on a daily basis.
  
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  [FUCK BETA]
92. Re:And yet somehow by mcgrew · 2012-02-07 03:24 · Score: 1
  
  Your lifetime, maybe, I'll be 90 in 30 years. When it does happen, though, the US wil lbe the hardest hit. Europe probably won't have that much of a problem with it.
  What good is the free market when you have nothing to sell and nothing to buy?
  
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  Free Martian Whores!
93. Re:And yet somehow by The+Evil+Atheist · 2012-02-07 04:57 · Score: 1
  
  Free people did naturally use money that had intrinsic worth. And then the system evolved as the weaknesses of the money were exposed. Do you really want to argue that the modern economy was completely planned right from the start when we climbed down from the trees? I'm not confusing libertarianism with anarchy. Libertarians confuse nice ideas with the actual world.
  
  --
  Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
94. Re:And yet somehow by Smerta · 2012-02-07 05:33 · Score: 0
  
  Sounds like he should consider consulting or a career change. You reach a certain point in your career where you have (IMO) 3 branches / choices:
  (1) Stay a company employee; in theory you have security, but the tradeoff is that the company tells you what to do. If you're shoveling shit or working below your potential, it's unfortunate but it's also *your* problem. Companies, especially large ones, are not set up to optimize for each individual employee's personal growth and utilization.
  (2) Go out on your own. This is a difficult road, not everyone's cut out for it (especially if your social skills are below average, or even average for that matter). The best (technical) consultants are both seriously strong technically (duh!) and also good with their interpersonal game. They listen to the client; they address the client's concerns while simultaneously pointing out blindspots / weaknesses in other areas; they provide high value, which is not inconsistent with a high rate. We've all heard the story about the old retired engineer, the hammer tap, and the $10K bill[*]
  (3) Change careers. By mid-life, you should either be in your peak earning years, at the peak of your game, or consider the proverbial career change. Many engineers go into management (for better or for worse), technical sales, or something completely different (teaching, insurance sales, whatever...)
  [*] for those who don't catch my reference, here is one variant of the story:
  A multi-million dollar power plant that had mysteriously ground to a halt. All efforts to restart it had failed and an expert was brought in. After studying the problem for a few minutes he took a hammer and hit one of the valves. With a rumble, the plant came back to life. Incredulous glances were shared, grateful cries and high-fives were exchanged. Later, the expert’s bill arrived for the amount of $10,000.00. The outraged executive in charge thought “All he did was hit a valve with a hammer, this bill is ridiculous.” He asked for an itemized breakdown and the consultant responded with a bill that read: “Hitting valve with hammer $10.00. Knowing which valve to hit: $9,990.00.”
95. Re:And yet somehow by trout007 · 2012-02-07 11:03 · Score: 1
  
  The only weakness of hard money is that it forces politicians to tax people to pay for the goodies they hand out and the wars they start.
  
  --
  I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
96. Re:And yet somehow by The+Evil+Atheist · 2012-02-07 11:39 · Score: 1
  
  Nice soundbite. How does that actually solve any problems or even contribute to understanding of the problem? Please provide a form of hard money that actually can keep up with the growth in GDP of most developed Western nations? Like it or not, money, hard or soft, has always been a substitute for time, information, and a whole bunch of other intangibles with volatile worth. Lastly what the hell does your rambling on hard money have any bearing on the failure of all markets, free or otherwise, to pay the real worth of a job?
  
  --
  Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
97. Re:And yet somehow by trout007 · 2012-02-07 12:08 · Score: 1
  
  Although not perfect bimetalism managed to take us from subsistence living through the industrial revolution. Of course we went off of it a couple times when the politicians decided they wanted to go to war.
  The whole point is that the reason the poor and middle class are getting poorer while the rich are getting richer is because the bankers get to create the money. If you were given the legal private of printing money you would be alot richer at the expense of everyone else.
  
  --
  I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
98. Re:And yet somehow by sonamchauhan · 2012-02-10 09:38 · Score: 1
  
  The financial system is less of a tool now and more a hindrance to business efficiency. The bits about moving values sounds like a caricature but reflects ground reality in some finance operations
  The world don't need deliberate waste to do useful work. Closing down pointless financial operations may stop some multimillion dollar projects but some multibillion dollar losses and collapses won't happen either.
  People and money dont stand still. There would be more worthwhile use of both.
And the geek shall inherit the earth... by jholyhead · 2012-02-05 20:14 · Score: 5, Insightful

It's nice to see real Engineers getting a bit of recognition for a change.

Scary fact of the day from the CFIT wiki article - as of 2007, 5% of commercial airlines still weren't running a Terrain awareness and warning system.
1. Re:And the geek shall inherit the earth... by jholyhead · 2012-02-05 20:19 · Score: 1
  
  Ever heard of clouds? Or night-time?
2. Re:And the geek shall inherit the earth... by devitto · 2012-02-05 20:19 · Score: 5, Funny
  
  "Re:And the geek shall inherit the earth..." - and some plough into it by accident.
  
  5% of commercial airlines still weren't running a Terrain awareness and warning system.
  Don't worry about the 5% - that number is decreasing all the time, one way or another.....
3. Re:And the geek shall inherit the earth... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-05 20:41 · Score: 0
  
  Scary fact of the day from the CFIT wiki article - as of 2007, 5% of commercial airlines still weren't running a Terrain awareness and warning system.
  You just never know when disgruntled colonel has set the ground level to minus 200 feet. Old habits die hard, too.
4. Re:And the geek shall inherit the earth... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-05 20:45 · Score: 0
  
  If you want to read something even scarier, have a look at the transcripts from the French flight that stalled and fell into the ocean not long ago.
5. Re:And the geek shall inherit the earth... by msobkow · 2012-02-05 20:51 · Score: 1
  
  I'm surprised airlines have a choice in the matter, given how regulated the industry is world wide.
  
  --
  I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
6. Re:And the geek shall inherit the earth... by Runaway1956 · 2012-02-05 21:03 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  I was a sailor, not a pilot. And, I've seen many, many times when it was hard to tell the sky from the sea. To almost echo, jholyhead, "Ever heard of storms?"
  
  --
  "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
7. Re:And the geek shall inherit the earth... by 93+Escort+Wagon · 2012-02-05 21:17 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  surely a more scary fact is that we have people flying planes who can't tell the difference between the land and the sky?
  If, like Don Bateman, you'd ever lived in the Pacific Northwest - you'd realize there are times you can't tell the land from the sky even when you're standing on the land.
  
  --
  #DeleteChrome
8. Re:And the geek shall inherit the earth... by bickerdyke · 2012-02-05 21:17 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  It's nice to see real Engineers getting a bit of recognition for a change.
  On Slashdot.
  
  --
  bickerdyke
9. Re:And the geek shall inherit the earth... by athe!st · 2012-02-05 21:17 · Score: 1
  
  CFIT - also know as "Cumulogranite" or "rock filled clouds"
10. Re:And the geek shall inherit the earth... by Richard_at_work · 2012-02-05 21:38 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  That 5% includes Africa and Asia, most of which isn't covered by aviation authorities with the same power as the EASA or FAA - places like Singapore etc are, but you need to start including all the smaller airlines that own Boeing 737-200s or 727s, which have been around for over 4 decades and are available very cheaply. They won't fly to Europe or the US, so they get to operate under very relaxed rules - check out the list of airlines banned from flying to EU airports sometime, it's quite enlightening.
  Also, corruption is rife in many African countries, which even by itself is a big blocker to reform.
11. Re:And the geek shall inherit the earth... by Alioth · 2012-02-05 22:59 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  Well, unless you only want to fly in day time VFR (visual flight rules) conditions, in which case, getting around by airlines would be incredibly unreliable as it would depend totally on a nice sunny day the length of your route and at the start and destination. In other words, aviation as a means of transport would be more or less impractical.
  In the real world we have to fly at night, in the clouds or both. Make a navigational error and you could end up piling into a mountainside instead of making a nice smooth approach into an airport.
  In the clouds or at night with no visual reference, you can't even tell which way up you are without reference to instruments.
  
  --
  Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
12. Re:And the geek shall inherit the earth... by martin-boundary · 2012-02-05 23:13 · Score: 0
  
  Right, cause slashdot honours real engineers like Steve Jobs all the time...
13. Re:And the geek shall inherit the earth... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-06 01:08 · Score: 0
  
  Bateman? More like Batman in disguise.
14. Re:And the geek shall inherit the earth... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-06 01:15 · Score: 0
  
  I think you missed the point, but kudos for getting an anti-Apple comment in.
15. Re:And the geek shall inherit the earth... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-06 01:57 · Score: 0
  
  Or the sky?
16. Re:And the geek shall inherit the earth... by Snowgen · 2012-02-06 02:18 · Score: 2
  
  It's nice to see real Engineers getting a bit of recognition for a change.
  On Slashdot.
  No. In the Seattle Times. Like most stories on /., this is just a summary of an article that appears elsewhere. This is why you sometimes see people saying "RTFA" or "Didn't RTFA". These are hints that a poster who wishes to be knowledgeable about the thing that they're commenting on would actually read the fine article and not just the summary.
17. Re:And the geek shall inherit the earth... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-06 02:28 · Score: 0
  
  I had a family member die in a crash that was caused by controlled flight into the ground.
  The visibility was spotty / poor, the terrain mountainous and the pilot either had a health related event, or mistook his location.
  This stuff doesn't just happens to idiots -- it can happen to the best of pilots.
  I'm not sure if a terrain avoidance system would have helped (depends on the cause of the crash), but any system that increases safety is a good thing.
18. Re:And the geek shall inherit the earth... by 93+Escort+Wagon · 2012-02-06 04:45 · Score: 1
  
  Hmm... that might explain why the "land" was so squishy.
  
  --
  #DeleteChrome
19. Re:And the geek shall inherit the earth... by Nethead · 2012-02-06 08:00 · Score: 1
  
  Seattle (actually the Puget Sound area) is a Boeing town, a Microsoft town, an Amazon town; i.e.; a geek town. When every single 747 or 787 that has ever been made, or will be made, has/will fly over your house, you pay attention to the geeks. Hell, the aero-geeks here even have a union (speea.org.)
  I just got done upgrading a VoIP network at a Samsung office where a bunch of Korean kids develop smart phones. Why here? Because they are across the street from T-Mobile and down the road from Clearwire and AT&T mobile.
  This town is (over)run by geeks. You know the names, Gates, Allen, Bezos, Myhrvold, McCaw...
  
  --
  -- I have a private email server in my basement.
20. Re:And the geek shall inherit the earth... by HungWeiLo · 2012-02-06 08:19 · Score: 1
  
  "This town is (over)run by geeks."
  So true. My wife's coworkers complain about shopping at the Bellevue Neiman Marcus, as it is probably the only one where you see poorly-dressed ungroomed individuals walking around while looking at their feet and holding a dirty Pyrex lunch box which held left over pasta or pizza an hour prior.
  Only in Seattle.
  
  --
  There are a huge number of yeast infections in this county. Probably because we're downriver from the bread factory.
As opposed to? by philmarcracken · 2012-02-05 20:20 · Score: 1

'the most common cause of fatal airplace accidents.'

As opposed to all those other times it was Mad Murdock's fault?
1. Re:As opposed to? by philmarcracken · 2012-02-05 20:21 · Score: 1, Informative
  
  *airplane :/
Terrain by Grindalf · 2012-02-05 20:21 · Score: 1

I quote "Terrain! BING BING Terrain! BING BING Altitude! Don't Think! BING! BING! Pull Up! BING BING!"

--
The purpose of existence is to make money.
1. Re:Terrain by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-05 21:22 · Score: 0
  
  You misquoted. Pretty sure it's "Don't sink!", actually.
2. Re:Terrain by qxcv · 2012-02-05 21:29 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  "He deliberately force-landed the plane by diving down in a steep manner until the Ground Proximity Warning System gave off a signal 'sink rate, whoop, whoop, pull up'."
  He said Komar ignored 15 GPWS warnings as well as his co-pilot's warning and brought the plane into the sharp dive, causing it to drop suddenly by 1,600 feet per minute compared with a normal 1,000 feet per minute and to overshoot the runway.
  The plane's front wheel snapped off, causing the aircraft to bounce three times before skidding on the runway, crossing an airport fence and a public road and hitting a dyke before bursting into flames, the prosecutor said.
  Source.
  
  A few years ago, a friend claimed that a member of the flight crew aboard GA-200 actually said "Stupid American" or something along those lines in an attempt to shut up the GPWS (which wouldn't particularly surprise me knowing Garuda). I'd dearly love to hear the CVR recordings for that flight if anyone knows where I can get them, I'd like to see whether that rumour is fact or fiction.
  
  --
  "The most dangerous enemy of a better solution is an existing codebase that is just good enough." -- Eric S. Raymond
3. Re:Terrain by icebrain · 2012-02-05 23:26 · Score: 2
  
  Don't Think
  That should be "Don't Sink!"
  
  --
  The meek may inherit the earth, but the strong shall take the stars.
4. Re:Terrain by jones_supa · 2012-02-06 00:10 · Score: 1
  
  In MythBusters, they misheard it "Don't think" so maybe he remembered it from that episode. :)
5. Re:Terrain by GameboyRMH · 2012-02-06 01:49 · Score: 1
  
  signal 'sink rate, whoop, whoop, pull up'."
  To be fair I don't think I would have listened to a juggalo computer either :-P
  
  --
  "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
6. Re:Terrain by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-06 04:59 · Score: 0
  
  that's *sink*, not think. thinking would have probably helped.
7. Re:Terrain by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-06 17:00 · Score: 0
  
  I work with these kinds of systems from time to time, and most of them have a multiple warning sounds, so they can distinguish between various levels of urgency, based on proximity, descent rate, and upcoming rising terrain. "Terrain! Terrain!" "Don't Sink!" and "Pull Up!" are all very common warnings that I have heard, and often two or more will be equipped onto the same device.
CFIT vs loss of control by evilad · 2012-02-05 20:24 · Score: 1, Redundant

CFIT is nowhere near the leading cause of fatal accidents in general aviation.
http://www.faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/news_story.cfm?newsId=13103&omniRss=fact_sheetsAoc&cid=103_F_S
It's pretty hard to find statistics for combined civil aviation, please post a link if you can find one.
1. Re:CFIT vs loss of control by robbak · 2012-02-05 20:37 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  Correction: cfit is no longer the leading cause. Terrain warning systems make then almost impossible, which is the point of this article.
  
  --
  Prediction for end of Universe #42: Fencepost error in Quantum_bogosort.cpp
2. Re:CFIT vs loss of control by Sqr(twg) · 2012-02-05 20:43 · Score: 1
  
  What TFA says (and what TFS obviously intended to say) is that CFIT was the leading cause of fatal accidents before it was nearly eliminated by Bateman's inventions.
3. Re:CFIT vs loss of control by Registered+Coward+v2 · 2012-02-06 01:36 · Score: 1
  
  CFIT is nowhere near the leading cause of fatal accidents in general aviation.
  true. It's selling doctors twin - Beeches.
  
  --
  I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
4. Re:CFIT vs loss of control by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-06 04:14 · Score: 0
  
  Since when are cessna's equipped with this?
Really? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-05 20:40 · Score: 0

Noone has posted a Batecave joke yet...??
How old school. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-05 20:42 · Score: 5, Funny

Today this would be solved by making flying info mountains illegal.
1. Re:How old school. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-05 21:11 · Score: 0
  
  Feel free to set laws to put food on your table, but there has to be food out there before you see it happening.
  You know, somebody has to be in the backstage to do the magic of your upper-class thinking.
2. Re:How old school. by Miseph · 2012-02-05 22:17 · Score: 1
  
  What is an "info mountain" and how do I get to fly one? That sounds AWESOME!
  
  --
  Try not to take me more seriously than I take myself.
3. Re:How old school. by Sockatume · 2012-02-06 02:16 · Score: 1
  
  AWACS? Galaxy transport full of servers? 747 carrying military intel all-star weightlifting team?
  
  --
  No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
4. Re:How old school. by __aapopf3474 · 2012-02-06 03:39 · Score: 2
  
  The day after 9/11, my boss was scheduled to lecture undergrads. He talked about the idea of using terrain maps to prevent planes from flying in to buildings. The system is called Softwalls, which was discussed on Slashdot. The really interesting thing about this is how strongly pilots and others objected. There is a FAQ that covers common objections.
5. Re:How old school. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-06 08:58 · Score: 0
  
  Info mountains are no laughing matter!
Lies! by MacGyver2210 · 2012-02-05 21:00 · Score: 4, Funny

This summary must be incorrect somehow.
I just opened Flight Simulator and had no trouble controlling my flight right into the side of a mountain. Clearly, the system needs work.

--
If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can't be taken on its own merits
As someone in the mountains I appreciate this by taj · 2012-02-05 21:05 · Score: 4, Interesting

My family has had a ranch in the mountains for about 100 years within line of sight of a military airport in more recent years.
The B17 and other wreckage there was horrible, uncommon and yet eventual.
You won't see those pictures on the Internet.
Make the technology scale down... by MrClever · 2012-02-05 21:13 · Score: 5, Interesting

Now all we need is to make the technology down-scale in both size/weight and cost. It would be great to see these systems adapted and installed in smaller, lighter aircraft. There are still far too many CFIT fatalities in the private and small aircraft world. They have synthetic terrain warning (superimposing the aircraft's position from GPS and altimeter over a topographic data to determine horizontal and vertical proximity to terrain) but no active warning systems. GPS is good, so is the altimeter, but neither are perfect all the time - if they were, ground proximity warning systems (GPWS...aka "WHOOP WHOOP, PULL UP!!") still are prohibitive for small aircraft operators. Kudos to the GPWS team though - they saved my ass on at least one occasion in a previous life when I was professional pilot!
1. Re:Make the technology scale down... by MrClever · 2012-02-05 21:16 · Score: 1
  
  One sentence got munged...it should've read:
  GPS is good, so is the altimeter, but neither are perfect all the time - if they were, ground proximity warning systems (GPWS...aka "WHOOP WHOOP, PULL UP!!") wouldn't be needed. Unfortunately GPWS are prohibitive for small aircraft operators.
  Sorry
2. Re:Make the technology scale down... by eh2o · 2012-02-05 22:37 · Score: 1
  
  Elevation from GPS alone is accurate to about +/- 15 meters, which isn't great but good enough to save lives.
  Meanwhile my phone not only has a GPS that can read position and elevation but also has enough storage to recall a detailed street map of every city in the world, its only a few gigs of information... so why can't they just do this as an app already for small planes?
3. Re:Make the technology scale down... by icebrain · 2012-02-05 23:42 · Score: 1
  
  The difference is that we aren't talking about a piece of consumer-grade hardware with no safety-critical application. Aviation-grade hardware has to be hardened against a wider environmental range, has less tolerance for bugs, and (most important from a cost standpoint) has to meet FAA standards. Then you get into regulatory requirements stating that permanent installations need to be certified or otherwise approved for each type of aircraft the equipment is going in.
  
  --
  The meek may inherit the earth, but the strong shall take the stars.
4. Re:Make the technology scale down... by gl4ss · 2012-02-05 23:50 · Score: 1
  
  mercedes is doing it for cars. it's scaled already, but I guess retrofitting it is the costly part.
  
  --
  world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
5. Re:Make the technology scale down... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-06 01:06 · Score: 0
  
  because it's not the elevation of the plane you need, it's the elevation of that radio tower you're about to hit that you need. and streets don't move around much, and when they do, it doesn't kill you.
6. Re:Make the technology scale down... by bunyip · 2012-02-06 01:32 · Score: 2
  
  This technology does scale down. The SportCruiser LSA that I fly from time to time warns me when I get down to 500ft from the ground. This is a 2-seat airplane. However, there are lot of old GA aircraft out there (often 30+ years old) that do not have modern avionics.
7. Re:Make the technology scale down... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-06 02:12 · Score: 0
  
  It's here but in a different form, Synthetic Vision. For example see Aspen Avionics:
  http://www.aspenavionics.com/index.php/news/detail/aspen_avionics_announces_availability_of_ww_sv/
8. Re:Make the technology scale down... by Rich0 · 2012-02-07 09:40 · Score: 1
  
  The issue is liability. If you build a technology that saves 1000 lives per year, but fails to save 10, then you get sued into non-existence. If you don't put it on the market then 990 more people die per year, but you get off scott-free.
  Our legal system makes the perfect the enemy of the good.
Flight 901 November 1978 by rossdee · 2012-02-05 21:16 · Score: 1

Air New Zealand DC10 was equipped with a terrain warning system, on the black box voice recorder you could hear the "woop woop pull up a few seconds before it hit Mt Erebus. So I duess it depends on how steep the mountain is.
The reason the plane flew straight into the mountain was the navigation system had been programmed wrong.
An the visibilty was compromised by the cluds and reflections from the snow and ice.
BTW it was not an 'international' flight, it took off from Aucland and was schedules to land in Christchurch. (And its final resting place was still in New Zealand territory MT Erebus is in the Ross Dependency (the part of Antarctica claimed by NZ)
1. Re:Flight 901 November 1978 by Miseph · 2012-02-05 22:15 · Score: 1
  
  I don't think anyone actually claimed that CFIT never happens at all to anyone anywhere. The claim is that it used to be substantially more common, so much more common that it was the leading cause of fatal aviation accidents, and now it is anomalous for a commercial plane to be involved in such an incident. That Air New Zealand crash is notable specifically because the accident is so rare on modern aircraft.
  
  --
  Try not to take me more seriously than I take myself.
2. Re:Flight 901 November 1978 by Ginger+Unicorn · 2012-02-06 00:45 · Score: 1
  
  visibilty was compromised by the cluds.
  ..and that's when the C.L.U.D.S. came at us. Those insensitive cluds!
  
  --
  (1.21 gigawatts) / (88 miles per hour) = 30 757 874 newtons
3. Re:Flight 901 November 1978 by Registered+Coward+v2 · 2012-02-06 01:43 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Air New Zealand DC10 was equipped with a terrain warning system, on the black box voice recorder you could hear the "woop woop pull up a few seconds before it hit Mt Erebus. So I duess it depends on how steep the mountain is.
  The reason the plane flew straight into the mountain was the navigation system had been programmed wrong. An the visibilty was compromised by the cluds and reflections from the snow and ice.
  One of the main problems is decision making is hard when your mental model of what is happening differs from what instruments and other sensors are telling you. Not trusting your mental model (often developed from years of training and experience) does not come easy; add in a situation where even a slight delay has serious impact and you can see why stuff still happens.,/P>
  As someone much older, wiser, and experienced once told me if you get into a situation where your not sure what is going on, return to the last safe setup and sort things out; as he put it "Remember - you can always back the ship down because you know the water behind you is deep enough to avoid running aground."
  
  --
  I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
4. Re:Flight 901 November 1978 by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-06 07:10 · Score: 0
  
  The problem with this while flying is that you don't always have time to do this. You have a limited amount of focus available to you to attend to the various aspects of flight, and the longer it takes you to attend to any one of them, the less time you have to attend to the rest. At some point, you run out of time to attend to all of the items you need to.
  This is known as cockpit resource management. In most cases where a mechanical failure was not the primary cause of an incident, you'll find that resource management is the root cause.
5. Re:Flight 901 November 1978 by ChrisMaple · 2012-02-06 07:45 · Score: 1
  
  The problem with airplanes is that they don't back up very well. I don't know how smart CFIT systems are, but I doubt that they can warn you not to fly into a box canyon, where sometimes there's no way to avoid a crash.
  
  --
  Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
6. Re:Flight 901 November 1978 by Registered+Coward+v2 · 2012-02-07 00:16 · Score: 1
  
  The problem with airplanes is that they don't back up very well. I don't know how smart CFIT systems are, but I doubt that they can warn you not to fly into a box canyon, where sometimes there's no way to avoid a crash.
  True. That's one advantage a ship has over an airplane. OTOH, as the terrain maps improve a CFIT system ought to be able to determine when a particular flight plan will result in entering situations such as you describe and provide the pilot with adequate warning. I don't know how smart they are either, but is seems that, with accurate GPS, runway incursions and taxiway errors could be avoided as well. The problem is pilots, and other people who are highly trained to operate very complex systems, tend to trust their judgement more than the machine. The desire in control, even if the auto system is better at controlling the system, is strong.
  
  --
  I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
good time by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-05 21:28 · Score: 0

goof time
flying blind by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-05 21:32 · Score: 0

I hope it will make flight safer, but this show makes me uneasy watching what happens to real pilots when confronted with computer warnings...attached to faulty sensors. It doesn't help that they wer're flying at night over water.. what else can you trust?. If you have almost an hour to spare you should watch this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiTd3WVPLyw
It already is, but there's a solution by dutchwhizzman · 2012-02-05 21:45 · Score: 1

Make it an act of terrorism, that will really help!

--
I was promised a flying car. Where is my flying car?
1. Re:It already is, but there's a solution by LeperPuppet · 2012-02-05 22:49 · Score: 2
  
  The government will, as soon as they figure out how to get the mountains into Gitmo.
2. Re:It already is, but there's a solution by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-06 08:32 · Score: 0
  
  There must be someone named Mohamed in there by now. The mountains should go to him in their own time.
What? by rotorbudd · 2012-02-05 22:59 · Score: 5, Funny

"The Engineer Who Stopped Airplanes From Flying Into Mountains"
I thought that was the pilot's job?

--
A bullet may have your name on it, but artillery is addressed to " Whom It May concern"
1. Re:What? by FrankSchwab · 2012-02-05 23:15 · Score: 4, Funny
  
  It is...but history shows that they weren't very good at it.
  
  --
  And the worms ate into his brain.
I look forward to the day by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-06 00:00 · Score: 1

When you retards stop complaining about the system and start campaigning for Ron Paul to get it fixed.
1. Re:I look forward to the day by Sulphur · 2012-02-06 00:36 · Score: 2, Funny
  
  When you retards stop complaining about the system and start campaigning for Ron Paul to get it fixed.
  Help us O. B. Gyn Kenobie; you're our only hope.
2. Re:I look forward to the day by jpapon · 2012-02-06 01:06 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  hahaha, Ron Paul would just make it so much worse. He truly believes that free trade is the solution to all our problems. Deregulation won't solve anything; you still won't have a job, you just also won't have potable ground water.
  Different does not necessarily mean better.
  
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  -- Let us endeavor so to live that when we pass even the undertaker shall be sorry. -- M. Twain
3. Re:I look forward to the day by ChrisMaple · 2012-02-06 07:09 · Score: 1
  
  The opposite of free trade is slavery. Would you like to explain how slavery is a solution to our problems?
  
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4. Re:I look forward to the day by jpapon · 2012-02-06 09:13 · Score: 1
  
  Umm, I sure hope you're joking... You could very easily have free trade in a society that embraces slavery. Just as you almost always have a lack of slavery in socialist societies. I hope I'm whooshing here.
  
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  -- Let us endeavor so to live that when we pass even the undertaker shall be sorry. -- M. Twain
5. Re:I look forward to the day by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-06 10:45 · Score: 0
  
  That's the worst strawman I have ever seen on slashdot. Leave now and never come back.
Another perspective by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-06 00:39 · Score: 5, Insightful

Engineers are one of the highest paid professions in our society. Other than actuary you won't find a profession that pays higher with a 4 year. Starting salaries? What profession tops the list everytime? Engineering. If you want to come out of a 4 year program making the most money, it's engineering. And it's been that way for decades.
The trouble is that everyone here is comparing their salaires to Wall Street types - who are outliers when it comes to compensation. I have met a local investment banker here in Atlanta (at Suntrust) who shakes his head about Wall Street bankers - he says they're another "World".
1. Re:Another perspective by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-06 16:35 · Score: 0
  
  Your comment is unbelievably idiotic....."highest paid professions"????? Crackhead?
Military Application by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-06 01:23 · Score: 1

I wonder if this technology was developed separately from military application. I know the Combat Talon II has always had terrain avoidance (in addition to terrain following, so that it can fly close to the ground to avoid radar). I just asked a CT1 guy if they had TF/TA, and he said they did as well. Those were developed in 1964 and released in 1967.
Terrain Avoidance Gone Wrong by Sponge+Bath · 2012-02-06 01:55 · Score: 1

What is going on?
Redmond, WA by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-06 01:56 · Score: 0

Indisputably the best technology that's ever come out of that city.
It's winner take all in some sectors by PeterM+from+Berkeley · 2012-02-06 03:28 · Score: 4, Insightful

Sir,
Our economy is increasingly winner-take-all.
Entertainment: mass media raises a few stars as superstars, most of the profession starves. Once upon a time, local entertainment could provide a living. Now all those local entertainers have to compete with superstars on TV. They can't.
Big company management: with fewer, bigger, companies, very few people ever get a chance to be a CEO-type. A few winner superstars, and then everyone else.
Sports: same story as entertainment.
Bankers: apparently concentrated in Wall Street!
What used to be distributed markets supporting many are now global markets supporting a few superstars, opportunity for most has dried up.
This is big shift in our economy and society, and I don't think we've really adapted well. Unless we want a society of 99% losers and 1% superstars, we're going to have to do SOMETHING. We could do something about it ourselves: just shun mass entertainment and the superstars and support the locals instead. Don't buy in big-box stores. Try not to buy stuff from SuperCorps. But all that may not be enough, and we'll have a bald choice between Government income-levelling or serfdom for most.
-PeterM
1. Re:It's winner take all in some sectors by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-06 05:00 · Score: 1
  
  You touch on an interesting (and true) point about the winner take all issue with some professions. If you're into reading great stuff, I suggest The Black Swan. It talks about this among other things. I'm reading it now and it's one of the few books I've read in my life that has really blown my mind.
2. Re:It's winner take all in some sectors by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-06 07:22 · Score: 0
  
  Our economy is increasingly winner-take-all.
  Entertainment: mass media raises a few stars as superstars, most of the profession starves. Once upon a time, local entertainment could provide a living. Now all those local entertainers have to compete with superstars on TV. They can't.
  That's how it's always been. Ever heard of a "starving artist"? Local entertainers have never been guaranteed a living wage from their entertaining. This is why most of the bands playing in local bars are filled with Average Joes who work day jobs.
  
  Big company management: with fewer, bigger, companies, very few people ever get a chance to be a CEO-type. A few winner superstars, and then everyone else.
  This is only true if you want to swim in other peoples' wake. If you have ideas and start your own company, you can very easily be CEO. If you have no ideas but just want to manage people, why should you be CEO of someone else's creation? There is no natural entitlement to being at the top of a company.
  
  Sports: same story as entertainment.
  Not at all. There are minor leagues, semi-pro leagues and foreign leagues for almost every sport. While some superstars may be on the ESPN highlight reel on a regular basis, they by no means represent the majority of sports.
  
  Bankers: apparently concentrated in Wall Street!
  And wouldn't ya know it, fishermen are concentrated at the seashore! Over time, businesses congregate where they are most efficient. When that place is no longer efficient, they start to disperse. Witness the fragmentation of "Silicon Valley" to places like Austin, Texas.
  
  What used to be distributed markets supporting many are now global markets supporting a few superstars, opportunity for most has dried up.
  Only for those with no passion nor imagination. This is the only time in human history that you can communicate with people from all over the planet for nearly no cost. If only more people would spend more time leveraging this amazing ability instead of playing Farmville. Opportunity has always existed for those who seek it.
  
  This is big shift in our economy and society, and I don't think we've really adapted well. Unless we want a society of 99% losers and 1% superstars, we're going to have to do SOMETHING. We could do something about it ourselves: just shun mass entertainment and the superstars and support the locals instead. Don't buy in big-box stores. Try not to buy stuff from SuperCorps. But all that may not be enough, and we'll have a bald choice between Government income-levelling or serfdom for most.
  I agree with you that 99:1 ratio would be terrible, but I think we disagree about how to avoid it. Supporting local business is a start. Shun the mass entertainment is a huge boon. However, ultimately I think Government needs to just step back. Insetad of trying to drag down the higher-end, we should be encouraging the lower-end to pick up the pace. If all of the "99% losers" were trying to be "1% superstars", the ratio would never become 99:1. There will always be some at the very bottom, there will always be some at the very top. The trick is to get the middle to move upward instead of the other way around.
Aviation by AverageWindowsUser · 2012-02-06 03:39 · Score: 1

Sounds like he went thru too much trouble. All he had to was tell pilots to pull down.
"Free Trade" is a marketing slogan by bityz · 2012-02-06 03:44 · Score: 3, Insightful

Yes, it it "free trade". "Free", doesn't means free for everyone, or equal for everyone. "Free trade" just means "no rules trade" or "self-regulating trade".
Oh boy, are you ever wrong. At the time of the free trade talks, I obtained a copy of the agreement. It is a fairly hefty book.
"Free Trade" is a marketing slogan to sell a trade agreement to liberty loving people. In reality, it is a set of rules that groups try to influence to their advantage.
Your post only points out how effective that marketing has been.
1. Re:"Free Trade" is a marketing slogan by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-06 05:40 · Score: 0
  
  Thanks for sharing the very important details instead of writing a shitty troll post.
good thing he's not retired... by bityz · 2012-02-06 03:47 · Score: 2

we need an engineer who will stop ships from sailing into islands.
Honeywell Labs? by LynnwoodRooster · 2012-02-06 04:14 · Score: 2

Sorry, it was developed by Sundstrand Data Control back in the 80s, when I was working there. Later bought by AlliedSignal, then merged with Honeywell. Honeywell had basically zero to do with the development of GPD systems.

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Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
1. Re:Honeywell Labs? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-06 07:08 · Score: 0
  
  tell us how you saved the company 2.5 million dollars on there production line.
2. Re:Honeywell Labs? by LynnwoodRooster · 2012-02-06 08:10 · Score: 1
  
  I didn't; I was working in the flight data recorder group at the time. But the GroundProx group was in the same building, and was quite revolutionary for the time. Too bad you prefer to just troll, rather than learn a bit of history!
  
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  Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
3. Re:Honeywell Labs? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-06 08:47 · Score: 0
  
  It's been in use by Combat Talon since at least the mid 70s and Combat Talon II since the 80s, so anything that wasn't even developed until the 80s is clearly something different.
4. Re:Honeywell Labs? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-02-06 09:17 · Score: 0
  
  No , you were talking about saving the place your currently working at a bunch with super simple fix to there production line. sounds interesting.
  reminds me of that story about one place spending a bunch of money on an empty box detecter. It still missed a box here and there and someone just put a fan on the conveyor belt and solved th problem.
5. Re:Honeywell Labs? by LynnwoodRooster · 2012-02-08 10:37 · Score: 1
  
  No , you were talking about saving the place your currently working at a bunch with super simple fix to there production line. sounds interesting.
  reminds me of that story about one place spending a bunch of money on an empty box detecter. It still missed a box here and there and someone just put a fan on the conveyor belt and solved th problem.
  Ahhh... It was simply turning the mainline pressure on the air compressors up. Speaker assembly line, if one or two glue guns fired at one time everything was OK - but quite often 3 would fire at once, and the drop in mainline pressure caused all 3 speakers to have incomplete glue beads and thus fail. Took a 55% yield line to over 95% with just a twist of the regulator knob.
  It's always good to know HOW to build what you're designing and selling, not just how to design and sell it...
  
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  Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
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The Reason by sycodon · 2012-02-06 06:26 · Score: 1

If you are a true engineer/software guy, these are the kinds of applications you dream of doing and the reason you get into the field.
There is no comparing something like this, that directly affects people's lives in a good way, with some hack to decode DVDs or run Linux on some device, etc.

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When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
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don! by HungWeiLo · 2012-02-06 07:05 · Score: 1

I sat within a 3-cubicle radius from this guy several years ago while working on a derivative of this product. The guy's 80 years old and still comes to work every single day - sharp as ever and has incredible drive.
I still have a memorial bobble head doll of him somewhere in my closet.
I understand that this device was mandated by the government to be installed on commercial aircraft several years back (I haven't read the article yet - it may have been mentioned already). Imagine the CFIT casualties had we left it to the "free" market when to install these things.

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There are a huge number of yeast infections in this county. Probably because we're downriver from the bread factory.
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Why build a database? by jwigum · 2012-02-06 09:02 · Score: 1

Wouldn't a real-time system based on a RADAR detection method be much more reliable or helpful? Do systems that provide accurate surrounding information(upcoming terrain, true distance to ground, etc.) simply not exist?

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Look behind you...