Slashdot Mirror


Edward Teller: Father of the Hydrogen Bomb

pigrabbitbear writes "Edward Teller, the father of the hydrogen bomb, had a thing for nuclear bombs. He wanted them bigger, smaller, faster, used in ways that no one had thought of before or since, and always more of them. He suffered no fools, and though he would be more vilified than any other American scientist in the 20th century, he always dismissed his critics as lacking in common sense or patriotism. Amid Cold War paranoia and fears of the Soviet nuclear program, the stakes were simply too high: for the free world, building the most powerful weapon in history was a matter of life and horrible death."

352 comments

  1. Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Now that Iran wants to have nuke, what would the opinion of Mr. Teller be?

    --
    Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    1. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by starfire83 · · Score: 5, Funny

      Bomb them.

    2. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

    3. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by MightyMartian · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If Iran ever dared to use such a weapon against anyone, it would be the last thing it ever did. China and Russia will tolerate the Ayatollahs to a point, but to actually launch an attack against anyone else, that would be intolerable even by their standards. All support would end instantly and Israel and the United States would be given carte blanche to deal with Iran as they chose. The Iranian airforce and navy would be wiped out, most of its military installations of any size would be destroyed, it would be left with an army and a bunch of poorly armed Basij who are only useful as cannon fodder, except the cannons would be bombing from 40,000 feet. I suspect the Ayatollahs' regime wouldn't last a month. The regular army, who has no great love for the Basij or the Revolutionary Guard, would probably arrest or just simply start shooting them, because the very few nuclear weapons that Iran would have would be useless, or worse than useless, once the necessary infrastructure to launch attacks was crippled or turned to slag.

      The fact is that as nasty as an attack by a second rate power like Iran would be, it's not something that could be repeated. Places like North Korea and Iran do not have the resources to build vast stockpiles of nukes. Once the oil dries up, they won't even be able to afford to maintain what they've built by that point.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    4. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 2

      Bomb them

      Who bombs who ?

      --
      Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    5. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by starfire83 · · Score: 5, Funny

      They bomb them.

    6. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now that Iran wants to have nuke, what would the opinion of Mr. Teller be?

      Sorry, love/peace/other-hippy-garbage doesn't trump Mr. Teller's premise: we need to be the top power on Earth in order to be capable of defending our interests. Logically the same applies to Iran as well (arguably more so given the mid-east has been the degenerate cease-pool of Humanity since the Arab scientific revolution ended - several thousand years ago) - and it is right for us to prevent new powers of such scale from arising.

    7. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 1

      If Iran ever dared to use such a weapon against anyone, it would be the last thing it ever did

      Iran's regime may be crazy, but they ain't dummies

      They will build the bombs and they will use the bombs, no, they won't bomb anyone, but rather, they will use the bombs they have accumulated to blackmail the world

      Without physically bombing anyone, the world will have no excuse to retaliate - Iranians know that

      --
      Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    8. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's the point why Iran wants nuke in first place. If it would acquire it, it'll be guaranteed from Iraq fate.

    9. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by DigiShaman · · Score: 2

      While that scenario sounds very plausible and rational, you failed to take into account one major aspect in all this. Iran's leadership is being driven with radical religious convictions. Or so we're lead to believe. The upper echelon espouses the 12th Imam (2nd coming of Christ) and them providing the instruments by which to make that happen. Talk is talk and power is power. So who really knows if these are heart felt convictions or just a ruse by which to project political power and authority above and beyond religious talk. But when Iran makes threats, don't simply brush them aside. At the very least, they may just settle for the effects of an EMP. That alone would be devastating to anyone's infrastructure in place.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    10. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by Swampash · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately being the top power on Earth takes money, something the USA no longer has.

    11. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by MightyMartian · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you want my personal opinion, Iran is a thinly veiled military dictatorship that uses religion as its unifying ideology much as the Soviets and the Chinese use(d) Communism. The Basij are all very swirly eyed, but I don't get the feeling the country is actually run by similar types.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    12. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by Black+Parrot · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They will build the bombs and they will use the bombs, no, they won't bomb anyone, but rather, they will use the bombs they have accumulated to blackmail the world

      Blackmail the world into... ...not invading them? ...letting them build nuclear bombs? ...letting their politicians be dicks and say outrageous things?

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    13. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1

      If you want my personal opinion, Iran is a thinly veiled military dictatorship that uses religion as its unifying ideology much as the Soviets and the Chinese use(d) Communism. The Basij are all very swirly eyed, but I don't get the feeling the country is actually run by similar types.

      Leaders who promote suicide bombings rarely wear the vest themselves.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    14. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by Concerned+Onlooker · · Score: 2

      That kind of blackmail only works if you're the only country with a nuclear bomb. If they aren't "dummies" as you say then they will also realize that they can't actually use it either. So, back to square one with the normal, everyday brutality of "regular" war that people on this planet seem to love so much.

      --
      http://www.rootstrikers.org/
    15. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by artor3 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      If Iran ever dared to use such a weapon against anyone, it would be the last thing it ever did.

      Most likely true, but what if we're in a situation where the Iranian regime is already facing its end? For example, I believe they have another election coming up. I expect it will be stolen just like the last one. And perhaps like the last one, there will be widespread protests. So far, pretty reasonable, right?

      But let's say that the protestors, inspired by the Arab Spring events, push harder this time, and actually get close to toppling the regime. Given Iran's abuses of its own people last time, I doubt they'd hesitate to employ the same tactics used in Syria and Lebanon - outright war against anyone opposing them.

      There could be no help from the international community if they had nukes, because if the regime thought they were really going to fall and that their rulers would end up like Gaddafi, they have no reason not to pull out all the stops. If you're really facing down an angry mob that wants to tear you limb from limb, using a nuke is a GREAT option -- it is the ultimate punishment for those who have done this to you, and it buys you time while your enemies regroup. Time which you can use to try to get out of the country, or at least surrender to the International Criminal Court (which does not employ capital punishment, unlike your former subjects).

      All the fear-mongering about them nuking Israel is a ruse. The Middle Eastern dictators need Israel as a bogeyman to scare their citizens, and Israel plays right into their hands by acting the part quite regularly. Tehran wants a nuke to ensure the survival of their regime, nothing more, nothing less. The Iranian people would be wise to oppose such a development, not that their opposition is liable to have any effect.

    16. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by NicknameAvailable · · Score: 2

      Unfortunately being the top power on Earth takes money, something the USA no longer has.

      Technically money is a construct no country on Earth has (other than China) - and it's only a pretty good approximation of labor to begin with. The USA has (for the moment) the freest civilization on Earth, and thereby the best place for innovative minds to go. Our labor defines us, and we are, by and large, the intellectuals that created the modern technological age. Whether that is a self-defeating system that dies due to the powers granted to a few bad people by new technological innovations, the complacency of the average voter, a combination of the two or something loosely related remains to be seen - but currently the USA is still on top (even in regard to China, they manufacture a lot, we design most of it - all the USA has to do to maintain it's lead is be free introduce harsh tariffs on exported labor).

    17. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 1

      Blackmail the world into... ...not invading them? ...letting them build nuclear bombs? ...letting their politicians be dicks and say outrageous things?

      Oh, I am sure the Iranians have given it a lot of thought

      They could blackmail the world to give them other high-tech stuffs that they do not currently enjoy - such as space technology

      They could blackmail the world to give them the veto power on the UN security council

      They could do much much more than what you and I can ever imagine, if they were to own nukes

      --
      Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    18. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 2

      Leaders who promote suicide bombings rarely wear the vest themselves

      To be more precise --- it is the old geezers who were behind the suicide bombing, but it is the young ones who end up blowing themselves to bits

      --
      Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    19. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      You just described all nuclear war. It is generally an all or nothing proposition, so if Iran did start it the attack would be all out and Israel would be gone too.

      They wont start it though. They are not mad, just religious fundamentalists. They know they can't win. The point is defense, nukes being the only thing that can deter Israel and the US.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    20. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by tnk1 · · Score: 2

      Well... if it was an existential threat to their system, their power and even possibly their lives, they might well launch. The Soviets had their empire, there was no need to nuke NATO unless something drastically changed, but be aware, at least some of the Soviet military leaders were known to have believed a nuclear war was winnable.

      Now take Iran, which is probably a lot less pragmatic than the Soviets were, and give them a bomb. I agree, their possession would not mean they'd launch at the first opportunity, but they could parlay that new influence into a situation were they could make Iran immune from an actual conventional attack. In turn, that could mean that Iran would be a safer haven for all sorts of very ruthless and ambitious sorts who were like-minded with the current regime.

      And let's not underestimate the crazy factor. The Iranian people, in general, are not crazy or even particularly evil. The problem is, the Iranian people don't have any practical control over their government at all. In that situation, all it takes is a (bigger) nut-job to make it into power there, and they've got the regime all set up to allow a launch to be feasible. In the US, the President would likely be obeyed if he ordered a retaliatory launch, but if it was for something other than pure defense, he might well find himself disobeyed and someone might finally dredge up the whole "Congress declares wars clause" and there's nothing that says "war" like an ICBM. In Iran, the government doesn't have checks and balances, it has a blank check to do whatever it wants, as long as the Supreme Leader signs it. And the Supreme Leader is a religious fanatic.

    21. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, that was Gen. Curtis LeMay...

    22. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The USA has (for the moment) the freest civilization on Earth, and thereby the best place for innovative minds to go................

      Lol...most of the people who created the technical age are European. The USA took a whopping 12 people to the moon I'll give them that, but apart from weapons and a few gadgets that make nice iThings, not much has come out of US minds. Garbage in = garbage out

      Listening to Americans who so cleary believe the nonsense they are force fed is the closest thing I can think of to a living tragic comedy.

    23. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by shiftless · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well... if it was an existential threat to their system, their power and even possibly their lives, they might well launch.

      And wouldn't they have ever right to?

      The Soviets had their empire, there was no need to nuke NATO unless something drastically changed, but be aware, at least some of the Soviet military leaders were known to have believed a nuclear war was winnable.

      Just as many Americans also believed. Yet a nuclear war never did happen. Why is that?

      Now take Iran, which is probably a lot less pragmatic than the Soviets were

      Why? Because our government and their friends want you to believe so? Do you really think Ahmadinejad and the Ayatollahs have maintained control for so long by being stupid? Do you really think they want to "end it all" and be nuked into oblivion, which would be the clearly inevitable result of using a nuke against another country?

      The problem is, the Iranian people don't have any practical control over their government at all. [...] In Iran, the government doesn't have checks and balances, it has a blank check to do whatever it wants, as long as the Supreme Leader signs it.

      Just like the United States!

      In the US, the President would likely be obeyed if he ordered a retaliatory launch, but if it was for something other than pure defense, he might well find himself disobeyed

      Ever heard of "plausible deniability"? It's a product of U.S. politics! Of course the President can't just launch nukes at will. But if the missile detection system malfunctions, as it is later determined, signalling an incoming attack, and the President orders an all-out retaliatory strike based on this data......well, who can blame him right?

    24. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by Evtim · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Just to add a point about China and Russia. I don't know what is the stance of China with respect to Iran, but before the Russian elections last week Putin published enormous "letter" outlining his platform and very clearly stating his opinions about all kinds of domestic and international issues. On the subject of Iran the message was clear - Russia will not tolerate Iran with nuclear weapons, period. However Russia will not lightly agree on military intervention as a "solution"; in fact they will oppose it at every turn. "Reasons for this position" - asks Mr. Putin - "look what happened everywhere where there was an intervention".

      Hard to argue against, isn't it?

    25. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by NicknameAvailable · · Score: 0

      Lol...most of the people who created the technical age are European. The USA took a whopping 12 people to the moon I'll give them that, but apart from weapons and a few gadgets that make nice iThings, not much has come out of US minds. Garbage in = garbage out

      Listening to Americans who so cleary believe the nonsense they are force fed is the closest thing I can think of to a living tragic comedy.

      To get specific: virtually everything of the modern age comes from those of Austrian/German descent - most of whom moved to America for the reasons outlined in my previous post. So really, if you yourself are not of Austrian or German lineage, you don't have much room to talk here. That said, most of the great creations that symbolize the modern age are derivations of Tesla's work, created and improved upon in America. While you might have a stranglehold on arrogant-self-indemnifying-Euro-trash, we have it on innovation (though given there is a very small group of Americans who can call themselves native to the region, it is arguably an attractive rather than a creative force).

    26. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We should give Iran the bomb. In fact, a few Hydrogen bombs. Put them on a few ICBMs, and launch them @ a few select cities where their nuke programs are going on as well as their capital - Teheran, Isfahan, Natanz, Buhshehr... In fact, we should also give a few to Pakistan while we're @ it - send some @ Islamabad, Lahore, Peshawar, Karachi, as well as Chagai (location of Pakistan's nuke tests).

      If after that, they still want more, keep it going....

    27. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If anyone nuked their own people to contain an uprising then I would expect the ICC to bring in capital punishment just for them.

      [godwin]
      There were no such things as crimes against humanity until the Nuremberg trials, but it didn't stop people from being tried and hanged for them.

    28. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by St.Creed · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Fat chance they'd get any of that.

      If they started blackmailing, the political position of their remaining allies would quickly become totally untenable. They could give hints, saying "well... we'd like to have more influence on the security council... nudge nudge wink wink"... but that's about it.

      As a deterrent to actually invading them when they start shooting dissidents in lots of 10000, now that is quite another matter. It would be very effective in doing exactly that - which is why a nuke is a bad thing mostly for the Iranians themselves, and not so much anyone else.

      --
      Therefore, by the (faulty) logic you're using, you're just a cow with a keyboard - osu-neko (2604)
    29. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 4, Funny

      Mrs. Teller to her husband: "Oh Edward, all you think about is A-bombs... all you talk about is A-bombs. Your beautiful house is full of bits and pieces of A-bombs... your books are all about A-bombs... every time you sing a song, it is in some way obliquely connected with A-bombs... everything you eat has to have 'atomic' incorporated in the title... Your whole life is becoming obsessively atomic, you know. Why do I have to hang from this bloody bomb casing all day? Don't I mean anything to you?"

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    30. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      I've read a book recently that made a compelling argument that suicide bombing in Middle East is a form of drug addiction. The young misled souls are the heroin shots (to a large degree) and those old geezers are getting high on watching the news after the fact When it wears of, they have to send another kid to blow himself up. There might be other motives as well, but this one factor is supposedly never missing.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    31. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by ElBeano · · Score: 1

      And this devotion to coercive power, carried as some form of an absolute value to its logical conclusion, will damn the world to destruction.

    32. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by Black+Parrot · · Score: 2

      Blackmail the world into... ...not invading them? ...letting them build nuclear bombs? ...letting their politicians be dicks and say outrageous things?

      Oh, I am sure the Iranians have given it a lot of thought

      They could blackmail the world to give them other high-tech stuffs that they do not currently enjoy - such as space technology

      They could blackmail the world to give them the veto power on the UN security council

      They could do much much more than what you and I can ever imagine, if they were to own nukes

      Just like North Korea does, huh?

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    33. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by f3rret · · Score: 1

      North Korea recently said they would give up their nuclear program in exchange for a substantial aid package: Story

      Now question is whether they are actually giving up the stuff, but they sure said they wish.

      This is the new face of nuclear politics, we don't do the whole MAD thing any more, now regimes under international pressure can start a nuclear program and then later use it as a bargaining chip, as in, promise to give up their nuclear ambitions in exchange for something else - in DPRK's case: food.

      --
      Admit nothing. Deny Everything. Make Counter-accusations.
    34. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by sphealey · · Score: 1

      = = = While that scenario sounds very plausible and rational, you failed to take into account one major aspect in all this. Iran's leadership is being driven with radical religious convictions. Or so we're lead to believe. The upper echelon espouses the 12th Imam (2nd coming of Christ) and them providing the instruments by which to make that happen. = = =

      You are aware that people with very similar beliefs held positions of power throughout George W. Bush's administration, right? How do you think that appeared to citizens of other nations?

      sPh

    35. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by antifoidulus · · Score: 1

      And of course there are always alternate motivations to consider as well. If Iranian oil exports are cut off, Russia stands to make a huge amount of money off of increased oil exports to Europe and Asia(at much higher prices to boot), with the Russian economy being very dependent upon mineral exports at this point in time, this would be a huge domestic boost to Russia. And of course Russia has repeatedly offered to refine uranium for Iranian nuclear power plants, at a cost of course....

    36. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The past tense of "lead" is "led". The past tense of "lead" is "led". The past tense of "lead" is "led".

    37. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by Flipstylee · · Score: 1

      If Iran ever dared to use such a weapon against anyone, it would be the last thing it ever did.

      It would be The end of ze world!

    38. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1

      North Korea recently said they would give up their nuclear program in exchange for a substantial aid package.

      Sheesh... the things that pass for 'blackmail' these days.

      You'd think they'd threaten to blow something up, and demand the UN to hand over ... one million dollars!

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    39. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, WE bomb YOU.

    40. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by seven+of+five · · Score: 1

      Nothing. He's dead.

    41. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by Entropius · · Score: 1

      It appeared pretty scary as shit to Americans, too.

    42. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by Entropius · · Score: 1

      Not sure how far you're going back, but there have been some very significant contributions of people of French, Italian, Dutch, English, etc., descent: Fourier to nearly everything, Marconi to radio, Maxwell and Faraday to electrodynamics, Lavoisier and Mendeleev (Russian) to chemistry, Darwin to biology, Edison to electricity, Pasteur to medicine, etc.

      If you want to say that the modern age is mostly European (and at that mostly Western European), then you're right, but I don't think it's narrowly confined to Germany.

      -An American of German descent

    43. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by metalgamer84 · · Score: 1

      They mostly come out at night.

      Mostly.

    44. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not exactly a hard question. Teller was a strong opponent of detente and restraint due to mutually assured destruction. He wanted us to bomb the Soviets out of existence, and he was a huge proponent of SDI as a means of blocking their ability to bomb back. He also helped advise Israel in the creation of their own nuclear weapons program.

      Teller's response would be to sing baritone backup for McCain in a chorus of "Bomb, bomb, bommmb, bomb, bomb Iran!"

      The man was effectively a single-issue voter. The issue: could nuclear weapons be applied to the problem? If so, then do it!
      That why I always thought it was weird that he was such a huge global warming denier. You'd think he'd be all over the chance to promote nuclear energy.

    45. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by Nimey · · Score: 1

      Not to mention the Russian paranoia of having another large military power at their doorstep. They're pretty pissed about the idea of Ukraine joining NATO, for instance. I think a large part of their objection to US/NATO/UN military operations in Syria and Iran is just that.

      History (Napoleon, Hitler) shows that their paranoia isn't entirely unjustified, but it doesn't mean it's constructive either.

      --
      Hail Eris, full of mischief...

      E pluribus sanguinem
    46. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 1

      But in Soviet Russia YOU bomb WE!

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    47. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 1

      Funny. Probably true.

      It's Teller. Substitute A with H, though. Try using sed - for the kick of it.

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    48. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As long as they return the favor by delivering a couple buckets of sunshine to DC and Wall Street, I'm all in favor.

    49. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If he truly loved the bomb he would certainly understand why the current government of Iran possibly wants the bomb. The Bomb is Da Shizzle BAM Bizzle.

    50. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The vast majority of the Iranian population is located in one major city. A single well-placed destructive device would decimate their population. They know this. We know this. They aren't going to do anything to piss us off enough to wipe them out.

    51. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is exactly right. We are projecting what Western politicians do to what Iranian, or other Muslim politicians in the Middle East do. In the West, things like the economy, education, security, civil rights, property rights, etc is what dominates election issues. Even religious politicians don't promise to bring about the 2nd coming of Christ, or the resurrection, or the messiah returning, et al. The most you have is prayer in public school, separation of church & state, etc, not whether the government should build a giant church with an attached airport in DC so that Christ can come anytime he pleases.

      That's different from Iran. When Mahmoud Ahmadinejad originally ran for election, his platform wasn't jobs for Iranians, or better redistribution of their oil income, or education, or any of that stuff that usually interests electorates elsewhere. He ran on a platform of bringing back the Mahdi, or the 12th Imam, who according to Shia tradition, is said to be buried in a well in Qum, and who is supposed to be brought back when armageddon approaches. According to Islamic escatological traditions, when their final day of judgement comes, the Mahdi is supposed to come along with Issa - the Islamic version of Jesus Christ. Unlike the Christian version of Christ, this version of Christ is supposed to convert all Christians to Islam, and kill those who won't convert. Ahmadinejad included plans to have a rapid transit from Qum to Teheran in order to facilitate the Mahdi coming to the capital once he is resurrected. This is not the type of stuff one would expect in any Western country - not even the Vatican.

      Now, it would be one thing if all this hooey was restricted to Iran and Iranians alone. Yeah, it would be problematic for Iranian non-Muslims - Zoroastrians, Christians and Jews, but there is at least a justification for not doing anything on the grounds that the West can't intervene everywhere there is a human rights situation - just like it hasn't to date in North Korea, Myanmar, Zimbabwe and so on. However, this plan of Ahmadinejad includes plans to wipe Israel off the map - whether it is to nuke Israel, drive it into the sea, or whatever. Even if one makes the case that the West shouldn't stand up for Israel, one can hardly make the case that Israel should just let the Iranians do what they want, and fold. Suicide is too much to ask of anybody.

      Those people who don't want the US to take sides in the Israel vs the Muslims conflict make a valid point. However, the same people more often than not are supportive of entities like Hamas, Hizbullah, Iran, the Arab Spring successor regimes (like the Muslim Brotherhood that's coming to power in Egypt, Libya, and if Assad gets ousted, Syria). Sorry, but while I can live with an US that doesn't take sides between Israel and Iran, I refuse to support the US taking Iran's side in all of this. Don't support Israel if one doesn't want to, but in such a case, at least let Israel eliminate whatever threats they fear from Iran - something that's not baseless at all, given both Ahmadinejad's public statements (including his holocaust denial conferences in Teheran) as well as Iran's support to Hamas & Hizbullah.

    52. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by dgharmon · · Score: 1

      "Now that Iran wants to have nuke, what would the opinion of Mr. Teller be?

      Nice one - Dr. Strangelove :)

      --
      AccountKiller
    53. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Umm.. Edward Teller is the father of the H-bomb, not the A-bomb

    54. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by jamstar7 · · Score: 1

      You are aware that people with very similar beliefs held positions of power throughout George W. Bush's administration, right? How do you think that appeared to citizens of other nations?

      Wrong Bush, actually. They started sneaking in under Ford, but only really took off under Reagan & Bush I. They hated Clinton with a passion because he wasn't hardline NeoCon (more of an old-school conservative, which is why he ended up getting so much support from right-wing voters, they could be comfortable with him where they couldn't with the NeoCons). And with Cheney in as VP, they had it made, Geedub could be their meat puppet while they got down to the serious business of making Amercia a NeoCon stronghold.

      --
      Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
    55. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      I know, I know...but "obsessively thermonuclear" just wouldn't have that nice ring to it.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    56. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But if the missile detection system malfunctions, as it is later determined, signalling an incoming attack, and the President orders an all-out retaliatory strike based on this data......well, who can blame him right?

      Dunno.... people sure like to blame Bush for the war in Iraq and call him a liar about WMD, despite the fact that we received vetted intelligence from multiple sources (US and non-US) stating Hussein had them, as well as Hussein's actions in barring inspectors from suspected sites. But then again, that was Bush who, somehow (and please explain this to me) was simultaneously an evil genius who masterminded the 9/11 inside-job-and-coverup conspiracy, but also a backwater hick buffoon who held a book upside-down once and also looked through binoculars with the lens caps on. Jesus Obama may (would probably) not endure the same scrutiny as evil, evil, wicked, silly, cute, but EVIL Dubya.

      Regarding the WMD in Iraq: Me frankly, I still think they're out there somewhere... either buried or moved.

    57. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by sphealey · · Score: 1

      There are the neocons in general, including the group that founding PNAC, but here I'm speaking specifically of the end-times/Revelations-type people. They were a feature of W's Administration; in fairness I don't think GHWB would have had truck with them.

      sPh

    58. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank you for stating what is obvious to me but apparently lost on most people. The US would LOVE to have an annoying country like n korea or iran try to launch a small yield nuke. it would be suicide for them. They (or more precisely, their owners as proxy states), on the other hand, would love to have the us launch a unilateral air strike on them, as it would solidify their regime and galvanize anti us sentiment worldwide. Nixon, johnson, kennedy, Kissinger, Teller, all the cold war hawks understood this. most politicians today dont seem to, including the pathetic john mccain. god, dont they teach chess in high school any more? I bet Obama is a good poker player.

    59. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by jamstar7 · · Score: 1

      Um, they were in place under Reagan as well. Look up their careers prior to Dubya and you'll find a lot of the same Usual Suspects back under Ronnie RayGun and Herbie.

      --
      Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
    60. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mr. Teller, he don't say much. Penn does all the talking.
      So is the Penn mightier than the bomb?

    61. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If we deploy these the fruits of our most devious minds to settle our disputes with Iran, imagine the headlines: "Teller Bombs Teheran!" with subhead "Penn not much better."

    62. Re:Wonder what Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? by NicknameAvailable · · Score: 0

      If you will agree never to cite Edison on a list of people contributing significantly (to anything other than the stagnation of advanced technologies) then I'll agree that not _all_ the great minds are of German/Austrian decent - though I strongly believe everyone you cited has some in their blood. But seriously, for all the harm Edison caused I'm surprised he could be included in that list - his fight with Tesla alone probably set us back 50 years.

  2. They Saved The World by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The fact is that without the atomic bomb, WWIII most certainly would have happened between the West and the USSR. The attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki raised the stakes of another general war between the remaining Great Powers so enormously that a war like WWII would no longer be possible.

    As horrible as these weapons are, they stopped the most terrible war the world would have ever known.

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    1. Re:They Saved The World by dankasak · · Score: 0, Insightful

      Actually the Japanese were trying desperately to negotiate a surrender even before the FIRST use of WMD against them. The idea that WMD somehow prevented deaths or suffering is total bullshit. It was a matter of the US asserting itself as the dominant military power, and Japan was a soft enough target to cop 2 WMD attacks. Interesting how the victors frame their attrocities.

    2. Re:They Saved The World by jamesh · · Score: 1

      Do you have a reputable link for that fact, or is it just something you heard once? Negotiating a surrender on terms that make it more like suing for peace doesn't really count if that's what you are referring to.

    3. Re:They Saved The World by DigiShaman · · Score: 3, Informative

      Revisionist crap. The Japanese were hellbent on taking the pacific to a lesser extent, a large chunk of China. They managed to capture its east cost pretty well. Now that I think about it. Diplomatically, I really wonder how the Chinese government thinks of America in this regards. We bloody well saved their ass!

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    4. Re:They Saved The World by MightyMartian · · Score: 5, Informative

      It served two purposes:

      1. It demonstrated to the Soviets, who had massive forces amassed in Eastern and Central Europe that the West now possessed a weapon deliverable by high altitude bomber that could kill thousands.

      2. It prevented the Soviets from seizing large parts of Japan by forcing a quick surrender to the Americans. An invasion of the main islands would most certainly have taken long enough that the Soviets could have moved to occupy Japan themselves. As it was, the Russians seized the northernmost parts of the Empire proper and hold them to this very day.

      3. It stopped the war very quickly and forced an unconditional surrender. There was even less game-playing that the fragments of the Third Reich had tried to play.

      As to the larger point you try to make, the Japanese leadership's actions even after the first H bomb were hardly singular in wanting to surrender.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    5. Re:They Saved The World by profplump · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's not the same China. The government that we saved in WWII lost control of the mainland in 1949. The government that we saved is now commonly known as Taiwan, and in comparison to the PRC they are quite friendly.

    6. Re:They Saved The World by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is an old, thoroughly debunked myth.

    7. Re:They Saved The World by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The Chinese admired the Americans quite a lot. Even Mao tried to make overtures, not wanting to be totally reliant on the Soviets, but the Americans had this bizarre fixation on Chiang Kai-Shek and the Kuomintang (Churchill made special note of this unreasonable obsession in his History of WWII), even after the Communists had driven them off the mainland. The strict anti-Communist stance lead the Americans to miss an opportunity at rapprochement and drove Mao completely into the Soviet sphere, and continued support for the Kuomintang, who weren't exactly all that pleasant when they were running China, pissed a lot of Chinese off.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    8. Re:They Saved The World by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      No kidding. The Japanese government didn't even surrender after Hiroshima.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    9. Re:They Saved The World by sjames · · Score: 1

      No. Japan was losing the war badly, but vowed to fight to the last person rather than surrender. I'm no fan of nuclear weapons but I have to admit that the overwhelming show of force saved millions of lives.

    10. Re:They Saved The World by mjwx · · Score: 3, Interesting

      2. It prevented the Soviets from seizing large parts of Japan by forcing a quick surrender to the Americans.

      As early as 1944 the Japanese began sending out feelers for peace, a conditional surrender were the Japanese terms. The big mistake was sending their envoy's through the Soviet union which wanted no peace between the Allies and the Japanese.

      I highly doubt it would have come to a prolonged attack on the Japanese home islands before a conditional surrender was hammered out. Japan had no desire to become part of the greater Soviet Union and would have surrendered to the Americans before that happened and the Americans did not want the casualties from a prolonged fight. Also, the Soviets were very reluctant to get involved in China. The Soviets only began their campaign against parts of Japanese held China and Mongolia on 8 August 1945, a major part of this was that it was a requirement for the Soviets to join the Pacific war in order to keep territories annexed in Eastern Europe (agreed to by Stalin, Churchill and Truman at Yalta, they cut up Europe before the war ended), The Instrument of surrender was signed on 8 September 1945, less then a month after the Soviets joined the war.

      Not that I question the decision of the US at the time, The soviets prevented the Americans from even knowing that Japan was talking of surrender but the Soviets would never have been a real part of the Japanese invasion, for no other reason then logistics most of the transports the Soviets had were American Liberty ships and no landing ships to speak of.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    11. Re:They Saved The World by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Revisionist crap. The Japanese were hellbent on taking the pacific to a lesser extent, a large chunk of China. They managed to capture its east cost pretty well. Now that I think about it. Diplomatically, I really wonder how the Chinese government thinks of America in this regards. We bloody well saved their ass!

      Nationalism keeps people from saying that other countries saved them, and before long no one remembers.

      How many people in the USA remember that the French made the American revolution possible? Lafayette St in Durham NC is named after the French general who volunteered to travel from France to Virginia to fight the British at his own expense. In the height of the build-up the Iraq war, I was in a restaurant a few blocks away from that street. People at another table made a big show of ordering "freedom fries".

    12. Re:They Saved The World by khallow · · Score: 4, Informative

      Actually the Japanese were trying desperately to negotiate a surrender even before the FIRST use of WMD against them.

      The surrender effort didn't have credibility. Sure, some Japanese were trying desperately to negotiate a surrender, but other Japanese with more considerable authority were preparing for a brutal and bloody defense of the Japanese homeland at almost any cost. Those who would surrender not only had to negotiate with the US, they had to do so with their own people who advocated a war of attrition.

      The atomic bombs tipped the scale decisively in favor of those who advocated surrender. The US demonstrated a weapon that could kill countless Japanese soldiers and civilians at little cost to the US. No war of attrition could succeed against that.

      And one sees a difference in results. Instead of powerless officials making secret and irrelevant appeals through diplomatic back channels, the Emperor of Japan radioed a nationwide order to cease fighting and lay down their arms, and that order was obeyed. That's the difference that the use of those two atomic bombs wrought.

    13. Re:They Saved The World by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Actually, none of the three points in g'parent post stand up to historical scrutiny. The main reason that the atomic bombs were dropped is because the allies had them, so they used them. And they had them not because of Japan, but because they thought the Germans were developing one and they were afraid Germany would hold out long enough to use it.
      No matter how you twist it, there was no rational reason for dropping the atom bombs on Japan. The reason the allies used them, is because they could. People like heroes, and since our parents and grandparents won WWII and since the Nazis were so evil we really really want "us" to be the good guys. Yet the US didn't get involved until Pearl Harbor and the allies were quite happy to knowingly bomb civilians that didn't support the Nazis, carefully selecting the drop target based on population density and using the most gruesome bombs imaginable.
      A good starter text on the material is Among the Dead Cities. Not a "fun" read, but a necessary one for those interested in WWII.

    14. Re:They Saved The World by Tumbleweed · · Score: 2

      Wow, that's amazing. If Japan wanted to surrender, it wouldn't have taken TWO atom bombs to make them do so.

    15. Re:They Saved The World by Black+Parrot · · Score: 2

      Revisionist crap. The Japanese were hellbent on taking the pacific to a lesser extent, a large chunk of China. They managed to capture its east cost pretty well. Now that I think about it. Diplomatically, I really wonder how the Chinese government thinks of America in this regards. We bloody well saved their ass!

      Nationalism keeps people from saying that other countries saved them, and before long no one remembers.

      How many people in the USA remember that the French made the American revolution possible? Lafayette St in Durham NC is named after the French general who volunteered to travel from France to Virginia to fight the British at his own expense. In the height of the build-up the Iraq war, I was in a restaurant a few blocks away from that street. People at another table made a big show of ordering "freedom fries".

      Yeah, people are dicks.

      However, I wouldn't assume that French support for the US rebellion was a matter of charity or pre-Revolutionary enlightenment. France and England had been trying to gouge each other's eyes out since... oh, shortly after 1066.

      It took the unification of Germany to convince them they could get into the same bed together.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    16. Re:They Saved The World by Black+Parrot · · Score: 2

      No kidding. The Japanese government didn't even surrender after Hiroshima.

      And even after the second bomb, the warlords only surrendered because the Emperor told them to.

      And even then they still managed to swing one exception to the Allies' demand for unconditional surrender.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    17. Re:They Saved The World by Black+Parrot · · Score: 3, Informative

      No. Japan was losing the war badly, but vowed to fight to the last person rather than surrender. I'm no fan of nuclear weapons but I have to admit that the overwhelming show of force saved millions of lives.

      Yeah, after seeing the movies of Japanese civilians on the islands (Saipan?) jump off cliffs with their babies to avoid capture by the Americans, the thought of an invasion of the home islands really makes you shudder.

      And the Japanese were reinforcing the area where the landings were planned, bringing a number of divisions back from the mainland, IIRC.

      Tradition says the US was expecting to take a million casualties. Heaven knows how many they would have inflicted.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    18. Re:They Saved The World by Black+Parrot · · Score: 2

      Wow, that's amazing. If Japan wanted to surrender, it wouldn't have taken TWO atom bombs to make them do so.

      Sure it would... they needed to see the parity bit.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    19. Re:They Saved The World by siddesu · · Score: 3, Informative

      This is quite far from a "fact", in fact, the facts point in the completely opposite direction. By the end of WWII, the USSR was not in a position to fight another world war, or even a local war. It was, in fact, not in a position to fight any wars except proxy skirmishes until about the end of the 1970s. The evilness of the regime towards its people aside, the country was devastated by WWII, its male population decimated or worse, its infrastructure heavily dependent on Western aid, and on top of that the USSR had to support extending communism in half of Europe. If you believe that was free, you're wrong.

      By many accounts, the real reason for the huge nuclear buildup on both sides of the iron curtain had, after a while, not so much to do with the threat that was addressed by the nuclear weapons, but more to do with the prestige and the resource allocation benefits that manufacturing nuclear weapons brought. In other words, it was a classical case of a principal-agent problem where the goal of the principal (maximizing safety) was not aligned to the goal of the agents (maximizing power of nuclear arsenal).

      I believe this is also known as not allowing a mineshaft gap.

    20. Re:They Saved The World by rockout · · Score: 2

      Complete lie. You could make an argument that Japan would've surrendered after the first bomb, and the bombing of Nagasaki wasn't necessary (we made no attempt to secure a surrender in the few days in between). However, to say they were looking to surrender before the bombing of Hiroshima is a fabrication, plain and simple. You deserved to get modded down for that and I'm glad you were.

      --
      I've learned that they're worthless, so I don't read AC comments anymore.
    21. Re:They Saved The World by ravenshrike · · Score: 1

      The French ARISTOS volunteered to help America. Not the assholes who created a machine designed to efficiently lop off heads. Bring the aristos back and we'll talk.

    22. Re:They Saved The World by ks*nut · · Score: 1

      Or they'll lead to a more terrible war. Despite the end of the Cold War there are huge stockpiles of nuclear weapons. And there are countries like India, Pakistan, North Korea, Israel and perhaps Iran that are part of the nuclear "club."

    23. Re:They Saved The World by dbIII · · Score: 1

      but the Americans had this bizarre fixation on Chiang Kai-Shek and the Kuomintang

      Just like with Indonesia bribing the right person set the US foreign policy agenga.

    24. Re:They Saved The World by EnempE · · Score: 1

      I am not sure why that comment was modded down like that. It isn't a diplomatically worded comment, but then this is /.

      I did some hunting, and he is not alone in this assessment of things.

    25. Re:They Saved The World by AmiMoJo · · Score: 3, Informative

      The problem is you deliberately targeted civilians in both cases. There were plenty of military only options, plenty of sparsely habited areas that would have been equally effective demonstrations.

      Those civilians were innocent. Caught up in a war they didn't want. Their slaughter cannot be justified.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    26. Re:They Saved The World by slew · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Sorry, but reality is a bit more complicated. China was basically in a civil war at the beginning of WWII. Japan had basically already taken over Manchuria (there was a movie about this "the last emperor"). To help keep Japan in check, first we gave money and supplies to the KMT (basically chiang kai-shek govt) to help them fight the Japanese, but they turned out to be incompetent, so then we gave money to CCP (basically mao and his supporters of the communist party). W/o money from the US, it is likely that both "governments" would have been defeated by the japanese. Of course that's a bit simplification, but when a countries is in a civil war and fighing the Soviet Union & Japan at the same time (ironically, germany was allied with china for a short time, until they flipped sides joined with Japan against the Soviet Union, but I digress), it isn't very simple...

      As you mentioned, the KMT is now one of the parties in Taiwan (currently holding power), but the DPP is a taiwan opposition party which breifly held the presidency from 2000-2008. So in many respects, the KMT, DPP and CCP are really sort parties, not "governments", per-se. Nominally, you'd think the DPP would be the most friendly to the US, but since the DPP supports taiwan independence, we are oddly more aligned with the KMT (and the CCP in mainland china) on this issue. Politics makes strange bedfellows...

    27. Re:They Saved The World by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Speculation. Had the bombs been used on uninhabited areas or purely military targets first we would know if they would have surrendered. Instead you went straight to nuking innocent civilians and then tried to retroactively justify it.

      The bombings were tests on human subjects as much as strategic attacks.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    28. Re:They Saved The World by golden+age+villain · · Score: 2

      Yeah, people are dicks.

      However, I wouldn't assume that French support for the US rebellion was a matter of charity or pre-Revolutionary enlightenment. France and England had been trying to gouge each other's eyes out since... oh, shortly after 1066.

      It took the unification of Germany to convince them they could get into the same bed together.

      Completely true. But let's be realistic here, when was the last time a country went to war as a matter of charity or enlightenment again? Wars are waged for territories, resources or influence one way or the other. One party has an aggressive policy of resource gathering or conquest, diplomacy fails, it escalates and eventually provides a casus belli to one or the other party. Of course, to sell it to Joe Sixpack, it is faster to wrap it with religion or moral.

    29. Re:They Saved The World by antifoidulus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Says the person who knows absolutely NOTHING about the actual history. The decision to surrender was far from unanimous even AFTER the two atomic bombings, even AFTER the Russia declared war. There was basically an almost open military revolt after the Emperor agreed to surrender, and had the atomic bombs not been dropped the revolt would have gotten much more support, and the war would have dragged on, probably inducing massive starvation not only in Japan, but in even worse in it's colonies as Japan was shipping out as much food as it could from Korea, Taiwan and elsewhere.

      Also, there were no "purely military" targets. The defense for the planned invasion of Kyushu was almost entirely civilian, and any military production facilities were generally located well within city limits, so again, you show you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, but feel it necessary to be self-righteous anyway.

    30. Re:They Saved The World by shiftless · · Score: 1

      However, I wouldn't assume that French support for the US rebellion was a matter of charity or pre-Revolutionary enlightenment.

      And U.S. involvement in WW2 was?

    31. Re:They Saved The World by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am not sure why that comment was modded down like that. It isn't a diplomatically worded comment, but then this is /.

      I did some hunting, and he is not alone in this assessment of things.

      Probably because he cited an incorrect and outright insane opinion as fact.

    32. Re:They Saved The World by qwak23 · · Score: 1

      Yes, it was Saipan. I've actually stood at the top of that particular cliff. There is a ton of history on that island.

    33. Re:They Saved The World by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually the Japanese were trying desperately to negotiate a surrender even before the FIRST use of WMD against them.

      No, they were trying to negotiate a cease-fire, they did NOT want to surrender and so we told them to go get fucked. They offered a deal, and we said "Sorry, we were pretty clear that we will accept nothing short of Total Surrender, if that's not what you're coming to the table with then you can talk to Fat Man and Little Boy."

      The idea that WMD

      The idea of WMD didn't exist at the time. We'd stopped using gas after WWI because everybody could see it wasn't all that effective from a battlefield perspective and the associated costs were horrific. But there were no "WMD's" and most people didn't believe something like a nuke even could be made, let alone used in actual combat.

      somehow prevented deaths or suffering is total bullshit.

      Only if you think that the Japanese would have quietly given up and let us take over their main islands, which they quite clearly stated would never happen. But you're confusing Japanese lives with American lives... we weren't worried about saving lives of people who had repeatedly stated they would resist to the last man, woman, and child before agreeing to a Total Surrender. We saved a lot of lives of US troops, which was our primary concern at the time.

      It was a matter of the US asserting itself as the dominant military power

      Well, first we kind of did that already at that point in time, there was this little country over in Europe which you seem to be forgetting about. And second, you say that as if it's some kind of a problem. Really? There was a war that is called WORLD War II going on, and you have a problem with someone wanting to show they are the dominant military? Do you even know what the word war even fucking means? It means several military forces using weapons to establish who is dominant FFS it's the goddamn definition of war.

      and Japan was a soft enough target

      Wow. Fucking really? You're calling an island nation who at the start of the war had one of the most powerful Navies on the planet "soft"? The nation that, despite being an island with no natural resources to speak of was putting a serious level of hurt on CHINA, they were a "soft target"? You've got to be the first, and probably the only person to ever call Japan "soft". They were not fucking soft by any definition, period.

      Interesting how the victors frame their attrocities.

      You've got a pretty rose-colored view of war. Seriously, you need to study some fucking history. I notice you don't mention what the Japanese did over in China, you want atrocities, there ya go dickface. The only people who one-upped them were the Germans and possibly some of what the Russians did in retaliation.

    34. Re:They Saved The World by gatkinso · · Score: 1

      Without the bomb, WWIII would have certainly resulted in the USSR's utter destruction.

      The bomb saved the USSR.

      --
      I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
    35. Re:They Saved The World by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How many people in the USA remember that the French made the American revolution possible?

      Hopefully nobody, because that's not what happened at all.
      The French refused to get involved for quite a while, because they didn't want to risk outright war with England if the Revolution proved to be short-lived. So they sat on their asses until the Revolutionaries proved that they could defeat the British in an all-out battle, which we eventually did. Only after that point were they willing to lend any significant support to the cause. So it would be more accurate to say that the Revolution made it possible for the French to get involved in the "War against Britain for control of the New World" rather than saying that they made it possible for the Colonies to rebel.

    36. Re:They Saved The World by Guppy · · Score: 1

      China was basically in a civil war at the beginning of WWII.

      Not just at the beginning, but during WWII as well. Chiang-Kai Shek was a staunch anti-Communist, and believed (imho, correctly) the CCP to be as much of a long-term threat as the Japanese. The western powers put him under intense pressure to halt his campaign against the CCP and make an alliance against the Japanese (even then, he only did so after the Xi'an incident). Many historians believe it was the Japanese invasion and ensuing interruption in the civil war that allowed the communists to re-group (in the early stages of the conflict, the KMT very much had the upper hand) and attain eventual victory.

    37. Re:They Saved The World by Entropius · · Score: 1

      I read this pre-Internet in some reputable histories of WWII, so I don't have a link.

      The amount of damage the nukes did to Japan was on the same order as what conventional bombing had already done: incendiary raids on Tokyo killed hundreds of thousands in a night and injured a million. There were bombing raids that turned back and chucked their bombs in the sea (for safety in landing) saying "We can't find anything still standing to bomb." Hiroshima was left standing precisely so we *would* have a target for the A-bomb.

      The Emperor had been trying to get a surrender for a while before that (Wikipedia: "Emperor Hirohito's viewing of the destroyed areas of Tokyo in March 1945, is said to have been the beginning of his personal involvement in the peace process, culminating in Japan's surrender five months later.[17]")

      From Morison's official history of the US Navy in the war, it seems that Japan would likely have surrendered in weeks (without a US invasion) without the A-bombs, but that we had no way of knowing that -- he doesn't condemn Truman for using the bombs like some of the leftist historians do. (They say that "the use of A-bombs is an atrocity"; what they miss is that war, itself, is an atrocity. You never hear these folks talk about Dresden or Tokyo or Leningrad.)

    38. Re:They Saved The World by Entropius · · Score: 1

      Bombing of civilian populations from the air had been done by everybody for a long time, under the notion that WWII was a war between nations, and that the civilian population is part of a nation. The Germans started it (in the Battle of Britain), but that's only because they were the first to achieve airpower sufficient to bomb anybody -- we certainly had the aircraft designed to do it (B-17's and Lancasters, whose designation I forget) early on. The Germans never did field a real heavy bomber, but they wrecked a bunch of London nonetheless.

    39. Re:They Saved The World by deadweight · · Score: 1

      +10000 If you read actual history and not the "USA is teh evil" stuff you will find out that the WW II era Japanese were every bit as evil as they thought and THEN SOME. You will find out that some POWs were *eaten* by their Japanese captors and that Japanese forces killed more civilians with swords than we did with A-bombs for starters and you can go on from there.

    40. Re:They Saved The World by khallow · · Score: 2

      Speculation.

      So what? You have a better approach you want to share?

      Had the bombs been used on uninhabited areas or purely military targets first we would know if they would have surrendered. Instead you went straight to nuking innocent civilians and then tried to retroactively justify it.

      It's worth noting here that it worked. I don't see the point of discussing "purity" of military targets or the degree of innocence of civilians who are contributing substantially to a war effort. Rebut the arguments actually used rather than projecting bogus morality on a different era.

      The bombings were tests on human subjects as much as strategic attacks.

      So what, even if it were true? The double standard here is repulsive. The US could have done a lot more tests on human subjects than that in Japan once the islands had been subjugated, but they didn't. Japan probably killed more people than were lost in the atomic bombs, just through human testing. Yet we don't hear you complain about that.

    41. Re:They Saved The World by careysub · · Score: 2

      Actually the Japanese were trying desperately to negotiate a surrender even before the FIRST use of WMD against them. The idea that WMD somehow prevented deaths or suffering is total bullshit. It was a matter of the US asserting itself as the dominant military power, and Japan was a soft enough target to cop 2 WMD attacks. Interesting how the victors frame their attrocities.

      Sorry, the Supreme Council for the Direction of the War (SCDW, or the "Big Six") who actually ran the country were not only NOT involved in any way with attempts to negotiate surrender. The official policy, and the only one they ever discussed, was Ketsu-Go, a final apocalyptic battle where (the Army claimed) they would inflict such heavy casualties on the Americans that they Americans would grant Japan favorable terms (no occupation, and continuation of the present government). It was impossible (due to Army opposition) to even bring up the subject of ending the war in any other way.

      The few feelers of negotiation came from low level functionaries in Europe who acted without the support or knowledge of their own government. The U.S. recognized that these were worthless. The discussion between the closest thing to a true "peace representative" on the SCDW, Foreign Minister Togo, and Ambassador Sato in Moscow (monitored by the U.S.) shows Togo denying any possibility of negotiating surrender, despite Sato's repeated insistence that that was the only option available.

      You are repeating a myth with no basis in fact.

      --
      Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
    42. Re:They Saved The World by SonnyDog09 · · Score: 1

      Nonsense. The war ending strategy of the Japanese Government is summed up in their slogan: "100 million die together." They preferred death to the dishonor of surrender.

      --
      Your "fair share" is NOT in my wallet.
    43. Re:They Saved The World by amanaplanacanalpanam · · Score: 1

      Also, there were no "purely military" targets.

      Really? None atoll? (I find it hard to believe we couldn't find a slightly less populated bullseye.)

    44. Re:They Saved The World by aintnostranger · · Score: 2
      Nothing of that makes a scratch on the "Their slaughter cannot be justified".

      "everybody is doing it" is not an acceptable justification.

    45. Re:They Saved The World by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In general the US is, IMHO, paranoid about any form of socialism overseas. This works to our detriment, in particular in south and central America. If we didn't send in the CIA every time somebody nationalized a banana plantation, we might have a moderate socialist in Venezuela who was friendly towards the US, instead of a hard leftist like Chavez courting Cuba. Then again, if we didn't have this problem we would have lifted the embargo against Cuba years ago. The paranoia about a left-leaning popularly elected government resulting in the spread of Marxism and a Soviet foothold was excusable during the Cold War. It doesn't make sense now.

    46. Re:They Saved The World by MightyMartian · · Score: 2

      Well, that and the fact that Chiang-Kai Shek was a rather nasty bastard and the KMT never was able to really convince the Chinese people that it had their interests at heart. Of course, they were wrong to assume that Mao did, but still if the KMT hadn't been such vicious assholes, maybe people would have felt a little less inclined to join the Reds.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    47. Re:They Saved The World by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "It prevented the Soviets from seizing large parts of Japan by forcing a quick surrender to the Americans."

      Except, this is slightly inaccurate! You see the USSR declared war on Japan only AFTER the atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima. I don't know about Nagasaki but at this point, it is irrelevant.

    48. Re:They Saved The World by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      Translation: I read a book that says the Americans were jerks, so clearly every point that poster on Slashdot makes must be wrong.

      The facts are that the Japs were not sending any clear surrender signals to anyone. There were elements within the regime who clearly knew the war was over sooner or later, but there were other elements, very strong elements, senior leaders like Tojo, who wanted to make the US pay in blood for every inch of Japan they took. They were militarily preparing for such an invasion, and it was only when Hirohito himself, after the second bomb, basically used his personal authority to force the regime to agree to whatever terms the Americans wanted (except of course, for dethroning Hirohito). If Hirohito had not done that, or the military rulers had in some way muzzled him (it would have hardly been the first time a Japanese Emperor had basically been turned into a puppet), even with the atomic bombs, they might still have conspired to continue the resistance.

      Without the atomic attacks it is almost certain that Japan would have had to have been invaded. It would have been a brutal war, at least as costly as the retaking of Europe, and with the Russians now more clearly than ever moving into the category of "ally becoming enemy", the US faced a double threat. As it is the Russians still hold the Kuril Islands.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    49. Re:They Saved The World by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      In April 1945, the Soviet Union had nearly 6.5 million troops arrayed throughout Eastern Europe.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    50. Re:They Saved The World by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LOL @ war they didn't want. The Japanese people were fully behind the war effort.

    51. Re:They Saved The World by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, after seeing the movies of Japanese civilians on the islands (Saipan?) jump off cliffs with their babies to avoid capture by the Americans, the thought of an invasion of the home islands really makes you shudder.

      If the Japanese commit suicide in the face of advancing Americans wouldn't that make the invasion really easy?

    52. Re:They Saved The World by dwye · · Score: 2

      Those civilians were innocent. Caught up in a war they didn't want. Their slaughter cannot be justified.

      Tell it to the Japanese about China, especially the Nanking Massacre. Those Japanese civilians were caught up in a war that they LOVED, right up until they started getting bombed on a regular basis.

    53. Re:They Saved The World by siddesu · · Score: 1

      And?

    54. Re:They Saved The World by SillyHamster · · Score: 1

      Your ability to be skeptical about the choice of targets clearly means that the military planners in 1945 got it all wrong.

      Such a pity they didn't have your superior analytical abilities to figure out the right place to bomb.

    55. Re:They Saved The World by painandgreed · · Score: 1

      No kidding. The Japanese government didn't even surrender after Hiroshima.

      And even after the second bomb, the warlords only surrendered because the Emperor told them to.

      And even then they still managed to swing one exception to the Allies' demand for unconditional surrender.

      Even after the Emperor said Japan would surrender, there were still warlords who sought to disobey, isolate him for "protection", and keep the war going. They did manage to take him prisoner, but could not find the surrender recording, and eventually their support failed and they had to give up.

    56. Re:They Saved The World by jamstar7 · · Score: 1

      Nagasaki was a major port city with military shipyards in Japan. They shipped a lot of naval supplies out of it during the war as well as building and repairing the Japanese Navy, so yes, it was a legitimate military target. Hiroshima was the capital of Hiroshima Prefecture, as well as hosting the headquarters of the Japanese Second Army and the Army-Marine Headquarters, as well as the HQ of the local prefecture reserve army. It was also a major port city, so yeah, it was a legitimate military target. They didn't nuke Tokyo because it was the national capital, and they wanted somebody left in the government who could negociate the surrender, though Tokyo was on the list 'just in case'.

      Doncha just love people who think Hiroshima and Nagasaki were just filled to overflowing with gentle vegan treehuggers before the nukes were dropped?

      --
      Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
    57. Re:They Saved The World by painandgreed · · Score: 1

      Wow, that's amazing. If Japan wanted to surrender, it wouldn't have taken TWO atom bombs to make them do so.

      Well, they wanted to surrender, but their ideal of surrendering was to return to 1938 borders (so they get to keep Korea, Manchuria, and Taiwan) and forgetting that WW2 ever happened.

    58. Re:They Saved The World by JTsyo · · Score: 1

      You gotta to admit though, killing of large portions of a nation's population is good way to move towards victory.
      Cities were picked as targets due to the concentration of industrial capability. While fire bombings and such could kill as many as a nuke it couldn't do as high a percent in a given area. It proved to the Japanese that the US wouldn't have to take a step onto the home islands to turn it into a wasteland.

    59. Re:They Saved The World by Tumbleweed · · Score: 1

      Neal Stephenson had a good quote in Cryptonomicon about the Japanese being nuked into realized they were pacifists. That they deny to this day that things like the Nanking Massacre even happened is pretty telling, plus their denial that they had their own nuclear weapon development program.

    60. Re:They Saved The World by mvdwege · · Score: 1

      Amateurs discuss tactics, experts logistics.

      Look at the supply line of those 6.5 million troops. Look at the available logistics resources. There is no way in Hell that these troops were a significant threat to the troops available to SHAEF in the same theater.

      By the time the Red Army reached Berlin, it was well-equipped, experienced, and at the end of a very long supply line leading back to the Motherland, and largely dependent on Western aid to keep the supplies going. Without Lend-Lease, its supply of trucks would not last past the first offensive.

      --
      "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
    61. Re:They Saved The World by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you serious? FDR wanted into WWII so bad he could taste it. US economic policy/oil embargo against Japan was effectively the cause for Pearl Harbor. Furthermore, do you really believe Lend/Lease was an example of neutrality?

      Of course, the Axis powers were insane to allow themselves to be manipulated into declaring war against the US. Japan took the bait and attacked. Germany declared war against the US after Pearl Harbor. After that, the US had "clean hands", because they were merely prosecuting a war that had been declared against them (*cough* just like Germany invaded Poland as a "defensive reaction" after a false-flag border skirmish).

      Don't try to portray US involvement in WWII as some sort of white knight shit. A state of emergency, eg. a world war, is a great excuse for an executive to demand additional sweeping powers that are unconstitutional. Furthermore, the hyped-up nationalism in the wake of Pearl Harbor allowed FDR to ramrod through more of his Keynesian economic policy (total war is a great example of extreme Keynesianism).

    62. Re:They Saved The World by mvdwege · · Score: 1

      [...] we shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender [...]

      That viewpoint is not so unique to Japan, apparently.

      --
      "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
    63. Re:They Saved The World by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      I once read, on the Internet, an excerpt of a book written about the cabinet meetings held by Truman discussing the possible endings of the war and the use of the atomic bomb, by one of the people who was there. It was a fascinating read. I really wish I could find it again. I suspect it is gone.

      I can summarize though each of the options and what the general opinion about them was.

      1) Accept conditional surrender -- they were aware that Japan had made an overture for conditional surrender. They were unclear what the terms of this surrender were supposed to be. They considered completely unacceptable anything that allowed Japan to retain the capacity to make war, and were generally against the idea of letting the nation who had initiated an attack on the U.S. get away with a mere conditional surrender.

      2) Use the atom bomb to force unconditional surrender.

      3) Do an off-shore demonstration of the atomic bomb in the ocean and demand unconditional surrender. While advocated for by some, this was considered highly risky. The chance that the Emperor would see it as some kind of trick, and leave the U.S. with too few weapons to use Option 2.

      4) Wait for Russia to engage Japan, forcing conditional surrender. It seemed like everyone believed that once Russia entered the Pacific War, that Japan would quickly surrender. The biggest problem with this option was that it would mean Japan surrendering to both Russia and the U.S. They wanted to be in control, and not have a repeat of the surrender of Germany.

      5) Invade the mainland -- this was brought up for completeness, but was clearly the least favored option. In any case, it was believed that Option 4 would occur before this option could realistically be put into play.

      I personally don't disagree with Truman's decision to use the bomb. What I disagree with is the revisionist history that creates a false dichotomy between nuke and invade, so that extremely simple moral calculus makes it obvious that the nuke option is better. The real situation was substantially more complex, and it's a disservice to both the people making this difficult decision and to our efforts to learn from history to pretend it was simple.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    64. Re:They Saved The World by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      You must be speaking of the current wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The way it was sold to us and the world at large was the express purpose to de-radicalize the ME region. The theory being that if you provide an opportunity for democratic reform, they would be less of a threat to us. Basically, it was for our benefit first and foremost. It just so happens to help the other side in the process.

      Just look at the arab spring movement. That self motivated democratic movement was a success more so than anything GWB could envision. Now that many have more freedom, those same fuckers can now enjoy that new freedom to hate the west even more.

      This was, and always will be a war of Western vs Islamic values. Trying to understand it further is just a useless exercise in mental masterbation.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    65. Re:They Saved The World by aintnostranger · · Score: 1

      You gotta to admit though, killing of large portions of a nation's population is good way to move towards victory.

      What's so morally supreme about the US defeating Japan that would made mass killing of civilians justifiable? I'd much rather not win the war than do so in such a manner. Japan couldn't do a thing. It was surrounded. It's air force destroyed. It's navy too. What makes getting a surrender from them so important to say, yeah, lets burn those cities?

    66. Re:They Saved The World by bobkoure · · Score: 1

      I don't disagree with Truman's decision either.
      My view:
      The allies were already firebombing cities in Japan. The first atomic bomb, as Truman and advisers were considering it, wasn't so much different as just much more efficient.
      Also, the allies had already been through the air war against Germany, which started out as an attempt at precision bombing of military industrial targets and devolved into carpet bombing, explicitly so in the case of Brit. bomber command, incidentally so in the case of the USAAF. But by the time the firebombing started in Japan, the allies were already well aware of what they'd been doing in Germany; this was just more of the same, but more efficient. An atom bomb would be another step towards efficiency. Attitudes about civilians were already numbed.

      Further, although they weren't publicized, I'm sure Truman and advisers were well aware of Japanese brutalities, driving even less consideration for Japanese civilians. I expect this also factored against accepting a conditional surrender.
      The battle for Okinawa had just happened, with high allied casualties. The forecast for allied casualties in a Japanese home islands invasion is certainly influenced the choice of firebombing, but it would have been equally valid for atomic bombing.

      I don't see it so much a dichotomy between 'atomic bomb' and 'invade' but more one between "invade now" and "bomb first". 'Bomb first' became 'firebomb' (decision made at operational level as I remember). Once the atomic bomb became available, yes, the decision went to Truman, but, well, there was already firebombing, and this was just another step along the road...

    67. Re:They Saved The World by JTsyo · · Score: 1

      I wasn't commenting that it was needed but that it would work if you were successful with it.
      As for why the Japanese needed to acceptable an unconditional surrender is we didn't want to have to fight them again in 20 years after they rebuild. When you fight a world war, you fight for keeps.

    68. Re:They Saved The World by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It was "Total War" where there are no civilians. The bombs were dropped on major industrial centres that were producing weapons.

      If you want to get all teary eyed then whine about the firebombing of Tokyo that killed more people than both bombs combined.

  3. Teller and Oppenheimer by mbone · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Teller destroyed the career of Robert Oppenheimer for no damn good reason, after which his own graduate students shunned him.

    I have no interest in anything to do about him.

    1. Re:Teller and Oppenheimer by manoweb · · Score: 1

      For no good reason? Oppenheimer did NOT want to build the H-bomb! What was he thinking?

    2. Re:Teller and Oppenheimer by Alomex · · Score: 4, Informative

      First of all, even if he opposed it that doesn't mean you get to accuse him of being a communist.

      But in reality the situation was more complicated than that. Oppenheimer (and others) also opposed Teller's design because they thought it wouldn't work. Teller took it personally and set out to destroy them. But those others were right and in the end the H-bomb that Teller help built was based on a design of Ulam's.

    3. Re:Teller and Oppenheimer by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Just imagine if nuclear weapons were in the hands of a civilian group

      The movies imply the President, who is a civilian, has to authorise their use. Is that not the case?

    4. Re:Teller and Oppenheimer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Allowing any weapon system that powerful to be shepherded by an elected individual is suicide. It would necessitate the immediate overthrow of any country stupid enough to create a chain of command ending at the desk of a a popularity contest winner.

      If the President is actually in possession of launch capability the U.S. needs to be thrown down in biblical fashion.

    5. Re:Teller and Oppenheimer by NicknameAvailable · · Score: 0

      If the President is actually in possession of launch capability the U.S. needs to be thrown down in biblical fashion.

      Well that is essentially the reason Republicans have a strong preference for a military background - the president is commander-in-chief ie: the president is at the top of the chain of command of the armed forces. Still beats the hell out of some shadowy agency having their hand on the button IMO.

    6. Re:Teller and Oppenheimer by lennier · · Score: 1

      Oppenheimer did NOT want to build the H-bomb! What was he thinking?

      That frying millions of civilians alive, instead of merely hundreds of thousands, was maybe going a bit too far and that the USA should rethink the "eat flaming atomic death, evildoers!" foreign policy?

      Probably not, sadly.

      --
      You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
    7. Re:Teller and Oppenheimer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you don't have civilian control of the military, you will have military control of the civilians. There are too many historical examples to bother listing them.

    8. Re:Teller and Oppenheimer by mbone · · Score: 1

      Just imagine if nuclear weapons were in the hands of a civilian group

      The movies imply the President, who is a civilian, has to authorise their use. Is that not the case?

      It came out much later that Curtis LeMay (first head of SAC) had never instituted the locks to prevent use of nuclear weapons by SAC without Presidential authority (either that, or the codes were set to something like "000"). So, shades of "Dr Strangelove," the President did not have to authorize their use. They could have done it all on their own.

      Things are supposed to be different now, but of course it is hard for an outsider to check.

    9. Re:Teller and Oppenheimer by dwye · · Score: 1

      If you are going to suck up to Oppy, get his argument right. His main point was that H-bombs could not remain a secret, once demonstrated, and that the West had far more vulnerability to them than did the much less concentrated USSR of the time. The idea that killing millions of Soviets via nuclear weapons was morally inferior to tens of millions dead from another conventional war after the USSR expended their arsenal on Europe would have been ridiculous even to Oppenheimer's many CP-USA friends and relatives, let alone him.

    10. Re:Teller and Oppenheimer by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Just like they say they go for a "family man" and have Newt. People with a professional military background get swift boated, the other underhanded tactics that Bush used against McCain, or asked to fall on their sword in front of the UN like Powell.
      Professional soldiers fall to professional politicians in that arena (I don't just think it's a Republican thing) no matter what noise is made as a distraction. The AWOL playboy kept safely out of a war versus the decorated veteran showed what the political machine really thinks of a military background, as did their preference for "cold warriors" that somehow managed to keep well away from anything involved with a military conflict in a 40 year career. Also Rumsfeld has shown twice that they care so little about the military that they put people in charge that do more damage to it than any enemy has to date.

    11. Re:Teller and Oppenheimer by NicknameAvailable · · Score: 0

      _We_ don't say such nonsense, the liberal media says we do to brainwash the rest of you retards. (and btw, Fox News is included in the liberal media - just look at who owns the company - hell for that matter look at Glen Beck - reasonable arguments blown so out of proportion and presented in such an insane manner as to detract from any value the original ideas once had - that's a liberal move)

  4. I'm sure the man was brilliant by Nursie · · Score: 2

    And his work has brought the state of research into nucleur physics forwards by huge leaps and bounds.

    OTOH some of his critics were right. We didn't and don't *need* the hydrogen bomb.

    But that said, for a given yield a fusion bomb will give you considerably less radioactive nastiness so it does have advantages over fission, and I can empathise with a man who thought huge explosions were pretty cool.

    1. Re:I'm sure the man was brilliant by FairAndHateful · · Score: 1

      OTOH some of his critics were right. We didn't and don't *need* the hydrogen bomb.

      Bite your tongue! Without the H-Bomb, the development of the Bikini would have been delayed for years!

    2. Re:I'm sure the man was brilliant by mug+funky · · Score: 3, Informative

      actually, you get more fallout. much more.

      the fusion part of the design doesn't provide the lion's share of the yield - as proved by Castle Bravo. it was designed as a ~3Mt design, but thanks to the U238 tamper and all the very fast neutrons the fusion stage provided, they ended up with 15Mt that they were quite unprepared for.

      most of the yield comes from fissioning the U238 tamper, which gives a ton of fallout. Pu239 fission initiates the fusion stage, which provides craploads of neutrons which will fission the U238.

    3. Re:I'm sure the man was brilliant by dido · · Score: 3, Informative

      Well, it the hydrogen bomb was a bomb that could be scaled up to as large an explosion as one wanted, as the Soviet Union proved with the Tsar Bomba. They replaced the U-238 tamper with lead, and still got an explosion of 50 megatons or so, the largest man-made explosion in history. Had they kept the uranium, it would have been around 100 megatons. Unlike fission weapons, where the fission of the uranium or plutonium in a chain reaction will cause the supercritical mass to blow apart after only a fraction of the material has fissioned (up to perhaps only 20% fission for implosion-type weapons, as low as 1% for gun-type weapons like the Little Boy bomb used on Hiroshima), limiting the size of the explosion, a hydrogen bomb can become as big as one would like, provided the raw materials are available.

      --
      Qu'on me donne six lignes écrites de la main du plus honnête homme, j'y trouverai de quoi le faire pendre.
    4. Re:I'm sure the man was brilliant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      actually, you get more fallout. much more.

      the fusion part of the design doesn't provide the lion's share of the yield - as proved by Castle Bravo. it was designed as a ~3Mt design, but thanks to the U238 tamper and all the very fast neutrons the fusion stage provided, they ended up with 15Mt that they were quite unprepared for.

      most of the yield comes from fissioning the U238 tamper, which gives a ton of fallout. Pu239 fission initiates the fusion stage, which provides craploads of neutrons which will fission the U238.

      Partially youre right, but

      The reason the yield was much more as expected was that they thought that only the lithium-6 isotope in the litium deuteride was reactive.
      60% of the lithium deuteride contained the isotope lithium-7, which they thought was inert. But due to bombardment of energetic neutrons it captured a
      neutron. When it decayed, it released an alpha particle, a tritium nucleus an the said captured neutron.

      so it produced more tritium as expected, which fused with the deuterium. the extra neutron released from the lithium-7 decay produced a way larger
      neutron flux, which caused more fissioning of the u238 tamper.

      So yeah, partially youre right. But it was not completely due to the u-238 tamper.
      The Castle Union test used almost pure lithium-6, and was within estimated yield.

    5. Re:I'm sure the man was brilliant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Newp. Castle Bravo was a 15mt surprise because they hadn't realized that the "stand-in" lithium-7 that they filled it with would break down into fusable tritium. There was a crapton of fallout from that test because they didn't realize the magnitude error and blew nearly the whole of their testing ground into the atmosphere.

    6. Re:I'm sure the man was brilliant by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      You're partly right, partly wrong.
       

      actually, you get more fallout. much more.

      That depends on the burst altitude as well as the weapon design. A pure fission weapon that detonates at the surface is going to produce orders of magnitude more fallout than a fusion weapon detonated at high altitude.
       

      most of the yield comes from fissioning the U238 tamper, which gives a ton of fallout. Pu239 fission initiates the fusion stage, which provides craploads of neutrons which will fission the U238.

      That depends on the design of the weapon, I.E. how much (if any) U238 is used in the secondary. It's quite possible to design a (Teller-Ulam) hydrogen weapon that uses none and thus most of the yield comes from fusion and you get less (as the OP puts it) 'radioactive nastiness' than a fission weapon of equivalent yield. Not to mention the fusion and enhanced fission weapons that don't have a fissile tamper or fusion secondary (in the conventional sense) at all.

    7. Re:I'm sure the man was brilliant by mbone · · Score: 1

      Yeah, it was apparently totally by accident, as they just hadn't been able to separate enough Lithium-6 for a pure test. One wonders that, if they had waited for pure Lithium-6, they would have ever figured this out.

    8. Re:I'm sure the man was brilliant by Nimey · · Score: 1

      Tsar Bomba was also relatively the cleanest nuclear bomb ever. Something like 97% of its power was from fusion, resulting in very little fallout.

      --
      Hail Eris, full of mischief...

      E pluribus sanguinem
    9. Re:I'm sure the man was brilliant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Castle Bravo miscalculation had nothing to do with U238 fissioning, which was well understood at that point. Lithium-7 fissioning was the misunderstood interaction in that explosion.

    10. Re:I'm sure the man was brilliant by mug+funky · · Score: 1

      oops, me fail nuclear physics, become DVD author and armchair commentator.

      i'd read the above somewhere, but forgotten half of it :)

  5. I'd so much like to see one of those explosions by manoweb · · Score: 2

    I wonder what the memories of the staff that saw those explosions "live" are. It must have been a magnificent show. The best of the human intellect to unleash the most destructive rage of destruction.

    1. Re:I'd so much like to see one of those explosions by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      Nuke Mars. No, seriously. Start vaporizing the poles and raise the atmosphere a few degrees. If we're going to learn how to terraform a planet, let's start there.

      Of course, sending a few MIRVs into space won't happen for obvious geo-political reasons. I can fully understand why.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    2. Re:I'd so much like to see one of those explosions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      my father's comment..
      "bigger than you can possibly conceive of or describe"
      movies, pictures, words cannot capture the sheer immensity of a fireball that is *miles* in diameter. (we're not talking feeble nominal Hiroshima tens of kT yield here)

    3. Re:I'd so much like to see one of those explosions by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Pretty sure the best way to terraform a planet is NOT to make it a radioactive wasteland from the outset.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    4. Re:I'd so much like to see one of those explosions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Creating an atmosphere for Mars would be futile, unless you also melt its core. Unless planets have a melted core, they don't have a magnetic field. If they don't have a magnetic field, they are subject to Solar Wind. Solar Wind will blast away any atmosphere that you created.

    5. Re:I'd so much like to see one of those explosions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If we're going to learn how to terraform a planet, let's start there.

      Using hydrogen bombs to heat up a planet's surface and atmosphere wouldn't work - there's nothing to trap the heat. The atmosphere's too thin, and ordinary dust wont contribute much to trapping heat. But, you might be able to recreate a hot core like Earth has by detonating hundreds or thousands of megatons deep underground. That's assuming Mars has a cold core which I'm pretty sure it does. It has little if any volcanic activity. Volcanic gasses released over a long period of time could heat up the planets surface and thicken the atmosphere. The toxic gasses leftover would be reactive enough to form part of a chemical process that releases oxygen - if thousands of tons of other chemicals could be sent there for that purpose (the hard part).

      Hopefully somewhere along the line it's possible to send lots of water to Mars, or melt frozen water there. Or else all the heating and atmosphere processing would be a waste of time.

      P.S. Be careful not to set off the Tirbidium.

    6. Re:I'd so much like to see one of those explosions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mars already is a radioactive wasteland (very little magnetosphere, very little atmosphere, nothing but dust and cosmic radiation),

    7. Re:I'd so much like to see one of those explosions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What if the rockets sending them up fail and those MIRVs fall back down? Idiot.

      Anyways, where did you get the weird idea that nuking Mars would terraform it?

  6. His son... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    ...Paul Teller taught at UC Davis in the 80's and 90's(maybe still does). When I took his philosophy of science course(PHI 108), on the first meeting with the TA, he said "Don't ask him about his father".

    1. Re:His son... by Swampash · · Score: 1

      Ask who?

    2. Re:His son... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      he said "Don't ask him about his father".

      I have loads of respect for this man (Paul) already.

    3. Re:His son... by mug+funky · · Score: 1

      sounds like something out of Young Frankenstein.

    4. Re:His son... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I happened to meet a claimed nephew of Teller at The Lab, (Yes, that Lab), a few years back. We got to talking about various Physics stuff, and his relative came up in the course of conversation. His opinion?
          Well, you can't exactly call your uncle an asshole.
          But the meaning came through.

    5. Re:His son... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To clarify, the Teaching Assistant for my study session instructed us not to ask Dr. Paul Teller about his father.

  7. Salami tactics by martin-boundary · · Score: 4, Interesting

    If Iran ever dared to use such a weapon against anyone, it would be the last thing it ever did.

    Not necessarily. Suppose Iran used a nuke against North Korea? Would the world approve or disapprove? China would disapprove, but America might not. The UK probably would approve. Who would retaliate against Iran? Who would be allowed to bomb or even nuke Teheran? Overall, the question is difficult to answer, and that means there's a shade of gray.

    Now let's say Iran used a nuke on some slightly less evil place, but still evil. Would that turn the *whole* world against Iran, or would the support be divided, with slightly more countries against than if it was North Korea?

    At what point would the *whole* world unanimously support wiping Iran off the map? If Iran attacked America? If Iran attacked one of the former Soviet states? What if Iran attacked Zimbabwe?

    1. Re:Salami tactics by mug+funky · · Score: 4, Insightful

      the rules of MAD are still in place i think. nuke anyone at all, and you're as good as nuked yourself.

      countries with nukes are diverse enough that you couldn't bomb one ideology without pissing off some nuclear power. we have communists (China), mafia states (sadly Russia), capitalist states (USA, UK), social democracies (France, sort of), Islamic states (Pakistan), and India which is kinda a bit of everything. then there's Israel... the whole political spectrum in all it's shades of madness and reason have nukes.

    2. Re:Salami tactics by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Not necessarily. Suppose Iran used a nuke against North Korea?

      If Israel sees a missile launched from any of the nuclear sites in Iran, I doubt they're going to wait to see where it's aimed before striking with all they've got.

    3. Re:Salami tactics by phantomfive · · Score: 2

      Not necessarily. Suppose Iran used a nuke against North Korea? Would the world approve or disapprove?

      At that point, no one would object to retaliation. The only question would be if anyone wanted to retaliate. But if they did, then no one would stand in their way.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    4. Re:Salami tactics by shiftless · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Not necessarily. Suppose Iran used a nuke against North Korea? Would the world approve or disapprove?

      You're missing the point.

      The point is:

      Why in the world would Iran want to nuke anyone? It makes absolutely zero military sense Do you really think Ahmadinejad or the Ayatollahs are that stupid?

    5. Re:Salami tactics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes.

    6. Re:Salami tactics by fremsley471 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Your point is the crux of the debate, yet is not being discussed. They're as likely to use it as NATO/Russia*/Pakistan, etc. So what is this war-mongering and chest-beating all about? The simplest answer is that once a Bomb is acquired, Iran becomes less vulnerable, reducing likelihood of invasion/overt military action. For some, that can't be considered.

      The next question is "Why is this reduced vulnerability considered such a seriously bad thing by Israel?", which is what Western commentators should be discussing. Can't be simply all about Middle Eastern hegomonies, but what are the other concerns?

      *is it only Russia that have atomic devices or do other former SSRs still have relic weapons? Would Russia have recently knackered Georgia if they had them still?

    7. Re:Salami tactics by f3rret · · Score: 1

      MAD has no been a thing for a long, long time.

      China, India, Pakistan and a few other declared nuclear powers rely instead on credible deterrence, that is to say they have enough nuclear weapons on hand that then can inflict "unacceptable losses" in the event they are hit with nuclear weapons themselves.

      MAD is a relic of the cold war when only two superpowers (I chose to see UK and USA as one superpower) had nuclear weapons, now with shifting alliances and proliferation through the roof the picture is a lot more nuanced, like what would happen if DPRK nuked Iran or vice versa? Chances are it would stay contained, the large superpowers are so timid when it comes to nuclear weapons that unless they are struck first the chances that they will actually launch are so low as to be non-existent.

       

      --
      Admit nothing. Deny Everything. Make Counter-accusations.
    8. Re:Salami tactics by f3rret · · Score: 2

      *is it only Russia that have atomic devices or do other former SSRs still have relic weapons? Would Russia have recently knackered Georgia if they had them still?

      After the break-up for the Soviet Union all nuclear weapons stationed in the republics were moved to Russia. There is some debate whether all of them made it back.

      --
      Admit nothing. Deny Everything. Make Counter-accusations.
    9. Re:Salami tactics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      China would disapprove, but America might not.

      It wouldn't matter if America approved or not. If they approve, Israel would yank America's balls. If they didn't approve, Israel would pressure them to prepare for an attack or something.

    10. Re:Salami tactics by turtleAJ · · Score: 1

      They're like... right next to each other.
      Just walk over and inform them:
      "Hey, this nuke isn't for you... it's going over your heads towards North Korea. Promise. G'day mate."

    11. Re:Salami tactics by giorgist · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Here is an answer ...

      If Iran launches a nuke ... it will be game over for Iran.

      If a nuke carried by a truck blows up suddenly in <insert city> it might be hard to find the "made in Iran" sticker.
      Let alone it may have had a "made in Israel" sticker, but they might find a "made in Iran" sticker anyway just for shits and giggle and turn Iran into glass anyway.

      This mad principal only applies to super powers. The best way to defeat your enemy is to make the big bully hate you, otherwise known as a false flag, but that would never happen now would it.

      G

    12. Re:Salami tactics by nusuth · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I copy and paste without shame:
      http://homepage.mac.com/msb/163x/faqs/nuclear_warfare_101.html

      The Nuclear Game - An Essay on Nuclear Policy Making

      When a country first acquires nuclear weapons it does so out of a very accurate perception that possession of nukes fundamentally changes it relationships with other powers. What nuclear weapons buy for a New Nuclear Power (NNP) is the fact that once the country in question has nuclear weapons, it cannot be beaten. It can be defeated, that is it can be prevented from achieving certain goals or stopped from following certain courses of action, but it cannot be beaten. It will never have enemy tanks moving down the streets of its capital, it will never have its national treasures looted and its citizens forced into servitude. The enemy will be destroyed by nuclear attack first. A potential enemy knows that so will not push the situation to the point where our NNP is on the verge of being beaten. In effect, the effect of acquiring nuclear weapons is that the owning country has set limits on any conflict in which it is involved. This is such an immensely attractive option that states find it irresistible.

      Only later do they realize the problem. Nuclear weapons are so immensely destructive that they mean a country can be totally destroyed by their use. Although our NNP cannot be beaten by an enemy it can be destroyed by that enemy. Although a beaten country can pick itself up and recover, the chances of a country devastated by nuclear strikes doing the same are virtually non-existent. [This needs some elaboration. Given the likely scale and effects of a nuclear attack, its most unlikely that the everybody will be killed. There will be survivors and they will rebuild a society but it will have nothing in common with what was there before. So, to all intents and purposes, once a society initiates a nuclear exchange its gone forever]. Once this basic factor has been absorbed, the NNP makes a fundamental realization that will influence every move it makes from this point onwards. If it does nothing, its effectively invincible. If, however, it does something, there is a serious risk that it will initiate a chain of events that will eventually lead to a nuclear holocaust. The result of that terrifying realization is strategic paralysis.

      With that appreciation of strategic paralysis comes an even worse problem. A non-nuclear country has a wide range of options for its forces. Although its actions may incur a risk of being beaten they do not court destruction. Thus, a non-nuclear nation can afford to take risks of a calculated nature. However,a nuclear-equipped nation has to consider the risk that actions by its conventional forces will lead to a situation where it may have to use its nuclear forces with the resulting holocaust. Therefore, not only are its strategic nuclear options restricted by its possession of nuclear weapons, so are its tactical and operational options. So we add tactical and operational paralysis to the strategic variety. This is why we see such a tremendous emphasis on the mechanics of decision making in nuclear powers. Every decision has to be thought through, not for one step or the step after but for six, seven or eight steps down the line.

      We can see this in the events of the 1960s and 1970s, especially surrounding the Vietnam War. Every so often, the question gets asked "How could the US have won in Vietnam?" with a series of replies that include invading the North,extending the bombing to China and other dramatic escalations of the conflict. Now, it should be obvious why such suggestions could not, in the real world, be contemplated. The risk of ending up in a nuclear war was too great. For another example, note how the presence of nuclear weapons restricted and limited the tactical and operational options available to both sides in the 1973 Yom Kippur War. In effect neither side could push the war to a final conclusion because to do so would bring

      --

      Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the War Room!

    13. Re:Salami tactics by deadweight · · Score: 1

      Yes I do!

    14. Re:Salami tactics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is an inane discussion! Who outside /. thinks that Iran will even go to war, let alone launch nukes, against North Korea? They're more likely to do it against Saudi Arabia. And of course, Israel.

    15. Re:Salami tactics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you misspelled fascist... fascist has the letters c,a,i,t, and s in it. But you got them in the wrong order and with a few extra letters thrown in.

    16. Re:Salami tactics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The bulk of them were stationed, aside from Russia, in Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan. Since the controls were all with the Kremlin leadership, Ukraine made it clear that they didn't want Russian nukes in their terretory (why would anyone want nukes on their terretory that they don't control?) and all those countries, including Kazakhstan, moved them back to Russia.

      Russia is way superior to Georgia militarily without nukes - if they wanted, they could march troops into Georgia like they did in Hungary in 1956. However, all they did there was recognize the independence of South Ossetia, and that caused a diplomatic break in relations. Georgia itself is said to have had some links with Chechen secessionists, but I'm not sure whether that's been proven one way or another.

    17. Re:Salami tactics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sadly I think you're spot on. I say sadly because it seems to be more and more likely that *something* is going to trigger a scenario as you have described it.

      I suppose I've just become cynical enough to have the idea that perhaps 'x' country (I really don't think it matters who is or isn't more likely - it's up to the individual to choose) would claim they detected a launch, and retaliated. Would the aftermath and destruction caused by that retaliation be enough to have people not question what happened to begin such events?

      I do want to make clear that I'm not insinuating or accusing any nation or group of using such tactics, but just that when people are under such stress with so much at stake, there is no second chance really. I know the Russians had an occasion during the cold war when some technology malfunctioned and indicated that a missile (or missiles) had been launched from the US, when in actual fact no such thing had occurred. It was only the will of a single person who said don't launch that has made the world what it is. I believe he was demoted and sent to a faraway posting after the incident. No good deed goes unpunished eh :)

    18. Re:Salami tactics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like they should get together with our Christian fundamentalists here in the good ol' U.S. of A. they could have themselves a merry little eschaton.

    19. Re:Salami tactics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now let's say Iran used a nuke on some slightly less evil place, but still evil.

      Like...France?

    20. Re:Salami tactics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Israel knows that Obama is not their ally. So chances are they are not likely to even let the US know, until after the fact - just like they reportedly did in Syria, when they blew up a site being used to build a Syrian nuke plant. Also, they are not likely to make any noise about it - they'd be only too happy to blow up as many of them as they can, not say anything, and know that since Iran has been publicly denying what they've been doing, they too wouldn't be able to say anything. Just like what happened in case of Stuxnet.

    21. Re:Salami tactics by dirtyhippie · · Score: 1

      MAD may be outdated, but the new doctrine is pretty similar. If you launch nukes at another country, the rest of the world will turn against you. Whether that would involve nukes or not is an open question, but the point remains the same: If you nuke someone, you're going to get destroyed yourself.

    22. Re:Salami tactics by RicktheBrick · · Score: 1

      What if a civil war breaks out in a country with nuclear weapons? The losing side has control over the weapons and decides to bomb its own people to stay in power. Who will retaliate? In this case, I think retaliation would only make things much worse. What if the losing side decides to nuke its enemy since they know they are going to lose power very shortly? Shortly after launching strike video comes out of the country showing the leaders responsible for it being shot. Again who will retaliate when that country is now promising to destroy all of its nuclear weapons? I can think of more cases where the people responsible for an attack are either dead or no longer in power so retaliation would not make much sense.

    23. Re:Salami tactics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      awesome post, thanks

    24. Re:Salami tactics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      MAD is not in effect. There is no mutually assured destruction because there is no arsenal parity. The USSR and the US were at parity. Russia and the US. still sort-of are. Iran and North Korea might be.

    25. Re:Salami tactics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "So what is this war-mongering and chest-beating all about?"

      Elections. There are elections in the US, Iran and Israel (I believe in fall 2012). "We are threatened! The nation is under attack! Rally behind us! Vote us!" Pretty old technique. No, I'm not gonna quote Goering.

    26. Re:Salami tactics by khallow · · Score: 1

      as NATO/Russia*/Pakistan, etc.

      One of those countries is not like the others. Pakistan is not likely to use nuclear weapons with its current leadership, but one would be foolish to make extend that claim to future leadership especially in the advent of a civil war. Similarly, Iran appears to have relatively sane people in charge (hopefully sane enough), but no mechanism for making sure that things stay that way.

      While crazy-enough people can in theory occupy positions of power, there are more considerable obstacles in the rest of the nuclear powers to keep the insane from doing so.

      The next question is "Why is this reduced vulnerability considered such a seriously bad thing by Israel?"

      Because Israel is highly vulnerable to a nuclear strike and could lose most of its population to a few nuclear weapons. And hope (here, that the Iranian leadership is both not crazy enough to start a nuclear war and competent enough to keep those nuclear weapons out of the hands of people who are crazy enough to use them) is not much to go on. It's obviously better from their point of view that an opponent not have them.

    27. Re:Salami tactics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All sucessor states passed their Atomic weapons on to Russia, some time in the 90s I believe. For awhile there Kazakhstan was one of the worlds foremost nuclear powers (the Soviet's premier rocket range was in Kazakhstan after all). But in the end, what does Kazakhstan need atomic weapons for?

    28. Re:Salami tactics by jamstar7 · · Score: 1

      This is an inane discussion! Who outside /. thinks that Iran will even go to war, let alone launch nukes, against North Korea? They're more likely to do it against Saudi Arabia. And of course, Israel.

      The 'Iran vs North Korea' was a 'what-if' scenario, about as likely as me being elected Pope (rather hard, I'm not Roman Catholic). What's a lot more likely is, the US will go to war against Syria and Iran to 'stabilize the region'.

      WMDs? So what? Most of what's classified as a 'WMD' isn't really a WMD unless you take the 'D' as 'Death'. The whole point of chemical and biological weaponry is to kill off 'the enemy' without fucking up his real estate and infrastructure. Minimal property destruction. You wanna whack 'em out, then send in teams to clean up the mess and get the infrastructure back into production again with your own people.

      Attack and conquer Iran because of the threat of possible nuclear weapons manufacturing? The 'threat' is, they know how to build them. So does any first-year particle physics major. It's not that difficult to design a quick-and-dirty nuke. It's a few orders of magnitude to design an efficient nuke, but if all you want is a Hiroshima-style bang, no problem. It's just two pieces of enriched fissionable uranium slapped together to go supercritical. Easy peasy. A Nagasaki-style nuke, or an H-bomb, takes a lot more work, a lot more intensive calculations, but doable on just about any laptop computer with the right software. Say, a decent spreadsheet and access to an explosives handbook. There's some engineering tricks you'll have to come up with, like making sure the entire explosion happens within a couple hundred femtoseconds, but it's been done. Proof of concept? Nagasaki and all the atomic testing since. The hardest part is coming up with the plutonium, which is why the Cub Scouts aren't a nuclear power.

      --
      Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
    29. Re:Salami tactics by nusuth · · Score: 3, Informative
      --

      Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the War Room!

    30. Re:Salami tactics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In order to attack Korea Iran would have to fire a missile over Russia, Pakistan, or even China first. Would any of those nations be willing to risk that they're targeting Korea by waiting it out to see where the missile hit? Would any nation tolerate Iran aggreviely launching an attack on any nation, no matter how evil it may be perceived?

      MAD only works in special situations where both parties are pointing vast arsenals at one another to insure compliance at risk of destruction. Iran would only destroy two things: its target, and itself, if it launched such an attack. No one would tolerate letting them get away with such a deed.

    31. Re:Salami tactics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Very interesting analysis from whoever wrote that. The real question (aside from whether the Mullahs really are that crazy or not) is what an Iranian bomb would do to the overall strategic situation in the middle east. If Iran has the bomb, then all of the other countries in the middle east, most of which never liked Iran very much, have to either 1. Knuckle under to whatever Iran says, 2. Develop their own nuclear arsenals, or 3. Place themselves under the explicit protection of one of the major nuclear powers - note that none of them are terribly popular in the middle east.

    32. Re:Salami tactics by JTsyo · · Score: 1

      No one can realistically nuke Iran though. The fall out would fall throughout Asia. That would be unacceptable to the global community. For it to be acceptable, there would have to be fear on imminent future nukes from Iran. Also I feel most western powers would hold off on nuking Iranian cities for actions of the leadership.

    33. Re:Salami tactics by JTsyo · · Score: 1

      Why would a missile from Iran to NK fly over Israel's head? They need to worry about the rest of Asia.

    34. Re:Salami tactics by JTsyo · · Score: 1

      If I made a movie about rouge ISI agents helping a terrorist org getting a Pakistani nuke, how detached from reality would you call that plot as opposed to taking place in the US or Russia? Already the actions by different interests within these governments are worrysome. Had Pakistan not been a US ally, we probably would have been against them getting nukes too.

    35. Re:Salami tactics by martin-boundary · · Score: 1

      Good stuff. Here's a pie-cutter for those who RTFL.

    36. Re:Salami tactics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There has got to be a modicum of credibility to such what-if scenarios. In the above thread, someone suggested Iran telling Israel that the missile they've launched is aimed at N Korea, not Israel. Really brilliant in geography, or can't read a map. North Korea is several countries North East of Iran, while Israel is a couple of countries West. Any Iranian missile launched against N Korea wouldn't go anywhere near Iraq - it would have to overfly the Soviet Stans and China before it got to N Korea.

      Incidentally, while I support attacking Iran not because of the 'threat of possible weapons manufacturing', but because of future use, I'd want just those military installations to be attacked and taken out. I don't mind the regime being toppled either, but I'd be opposed to anything beyond that. As a real example of what I mean, I supported the US war in Afghanistan until December 2001 when the Taliban was outsted, but at that point, I thought that the US role was over. In Iraq, I supported it until the day Saddam's statue came down, but after that, aside from the search for WMDs, I was against the US occupation of Iraq. Essentially, the sole aim of the US army is to kill its enemies and cripple their war making ability, and once that's fulfilled, they have no role there - I don't want billions spent in 'rebuilding' those countries to something they never were. So that way, I'm against occupying Iran - just enough attacks to make them incapable of starting wars, and I'll be fine.

      Another role of the US and other Infidel countries that I'm opposed to - trying to bring about 'reconciliation' between Shia and Sunnis, or various warring factions in different countries. These conflicts go way back to the period after the death of Mohammed, so it's pure vanity for modern Westerners to think that they can resolve them. If anything, such internecine warfare keeps them focussed on each other, instead of spending money to fund either suicide bombers, mosques at ground zero, dawa artists or terror plots in the West.

    37. Re:Salami tactics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How many people are still belaboring under the delusion that Fuckistan is an ally? They're not, and indeed, have never been. After 9/11, the mood of the US being what it was, they were shit scared and so agreed to let the US do whatever it wanted as far as the Taliban went. Bush, being a cretin, bought into their pretensions of friendship and continued pouring billions of $$$ to them to 'help them fight terror'. When in fact the Taliban itself was a creation of Fuckistan, and that too under St Benazir's regime. If one wants more proof about Fuckistan's duplicity, look no further than the capture of Osama. While the US happily regurgitated what Islamabad told them - namely that it was impossible to go after Osama in their 'wild west' like frontier areas in Waziristan, the fact remains that all the high ranking al-Qaeda leaders, like Ramzi bin al Shib, Abu Zubaida, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed etc were captured in Fuckistan's big cities - Karachi, Faisalabad, Rawalpindi. In fact, there was a joke in India that Osama was probably safely ensconsed in President Musharraf's residence. Okay, not exactly, since he was captured in a military warehouse in Abbotabad, not far from Islamabad. Any one thinks it was just ISI rogue agents, and doubts that it was the Fuckistanis, with full support from the President on downwards, who approved of his being sheltered? Don't be surprised if one day, Ayman al Zawahiri is captured in Lahore, or Islamabad, rather than in Peshawar or Waziristan.

      In fact, Fuckistan is the first country that the US should have gone after on WMD grounds after 9/11, not Iraq. This is a country that had declared itself as having nukes, and were behind the Taliban. What more did the US need? Instead of having painful negotiations about securing those nukes from Taliban or other Jihadi forces - pretty redundant since every Fuckistani government is itself a Jihadi government - the US should have rained their bunker busters all over their nuke sites, so that Fuckistan no longer remained a nuclear power. But what can one expect from some complete airheads in both the Bush and Obama administrations, who believed and continue to believe that Fuckistan was and is an US ally?

    38. Re:Salami tactics by lsatenstein · · Score: 1

      At this stage of politics, with new North Koreas next generation, I believe the world will side with the society that is opening up and slowly (however slowly), is opening it up to the world. The USA will be shipping huge quantities of food in compensation for certain positive NK actions. So, the USA would be on the side of NK.

      --
      Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
  8. Wrong bomb by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    As to the larger point you try to make, the Japanese leadership's actions even after the first H bomb were hardly singular in wanting to surrender.

    A bomb != H bomb. The U.S. dropped two fission bombs on Japan. Thank heavens we haven't dropped any Tellar-Ulam, a.k.a. fission-fusion, a.k.a. hydrogen bombs on anyone.

    1. Re:Wrong bomb by drkim · · Score: 1

      Actually we dropped 4 on Spain in 1966. (Mk28 hydrogen bombs)

  9. How ? by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 1

    it is right for us to prevent new powers of such scale from arising

    The big question is : How you are to achieve that goal?

    In what way you can disarm Iran, with peaceful mean?

    --
    Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    1. Re:How ? by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 1

      Perhaps my dislike of the Mideast didn't quite come through clearly by citing the region as "the degenerate cease-pool of Humanity since the Arab scientific revolution ended - several thousand years ago" - why on Earth does it need to be peaceful? Fight fire with fire, nuke the bastards until all the "holy land" is a glass parking lot and sleep easy at night knowing the Human race improved significantly

      I read it quite loud and clear, actually

      But I do reckon one thing that you may have missed --- America and the West still need the OIL from the Middle East

      If you successful turning the entire region into vast area of glass parking lots, you ain't gonna get any oil there either

      --
      Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    2. Re:How ? by NicknameAvailable · · Score: 0

      I read it quite loud and clear, actually

      But I do reckon one thing that you may have missed --- America and the West still need the OIL from the Middle East

      If you successful turning the entire region into vast area of glass parking lots, you ain't gonna get any oil there either

      We don't need the oil we want the oil. We have hybrid and electric transportation, we have enough oil to last a few decades just out of Alaska and the Gulf, we have proven effective routes to biodiesel synthesis that can be expanded to large scale use, and we have nuclear power - we would need to build more reactors and improve the infrastructure - but we do at this moment have the technology and the means to get off our oil dependency as slowly as is required. In the long run their causing us nothing but problems both in terms of the increased oil use and their death throws, attempting feverishly and futilely to find a way to sustain when they have no more oil to sell yet have a populace to brainwashed through religious ideals to defend it that the best future they have in store is that of N. Korea - too irrational and overzealous for anyone to want to help them and too uneducated to help themselves.

    3. Re:How ? by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      "the degenerate cease-pool of Humanity since the Arab scientific revolution ended - several thousand years ago"

      Try "several hundred years ago". It ended, pretty much, with Tamerlane's destruction of Persia. Which was rather less than ONE thousand years ago, much less "several thousand".

      Also, it's cesspool, not cease-pool.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
  10. My grandfather was killed by the Japanese by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 1

    Disclaimer:

    My grandfather was killed by the Japanese

    He suffered severe torture before he was beheaded

    The Japanese killed my grandfather 2 weeks after they have signed the "surrender letter" on board an American warship

    And - this is important --- my grandfather was not the only one who was murdered by the Japanese occupation force after they supposed to have surrendered

    Your assertion that "Actually the Japanese were trying desperately to negotiate a surrender even before the FIRST use of WMD against them" is nothing but hogwash to those who suffered under the Japanese

    --
    Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    1. Re:My grandfather was killed by the Japanese by MagikSlinger · · Score: 1

      I can understand your point of view, but it doesn't change the fact the Japanese government had begun the process of feeling for surrender. What ground soldiers did is separate from what the politicians wanted to do. Did LBJ want American soldiers massacring civillians at Mai Lai? No, but insane shit happens in war. The soldiers that tortured and murdered your grandfather were war criminals, and one can only hope that those Japanese soldiers either committed sepiku or were brutally beaten & killed by American marines.

      --
      The bitter lessons of a veteran coder: http://bitterprogrammer.blogspot.com
  11. Fortunately by Black+Parrot · · Score: 4, Funny

    Thank goodness, now that the Cold War is over we have the War on Terror, so we can still dismiss critics of more spending for unnecessary weapon systems as "lacking in common sense or patriotism".

    --
    Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
  12. Who brooked who by theshowmecanuck · · Score: 1

    He mustn't have brooked himself then.

    --
    -- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
  13. Later years by Animats · · Score: 1

    I met him in his later years, after the bomb-pumped X-ray laser missile defense idea he was touting had fizzled. At the time, he was pitching precision-guided crowbars dropped from orbit.

  14. Um, no he's not a "father" of hydrogen bomb by melted · · Score: 1
    1. Re:Um, no he's not a "father" of hydrogen bomb by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      It was developed in parallel in US and USSR, so both men take credit. But US was the first one to detonate a working device.

    2. Re:Um, no he's not a "father" of hydrogen bomb by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      Um, no he's not a "father" of hydrogen bomb . . . Andrei Sakharov (of Soviet Union) is:

      Maybe you haven't heard, but the US and USSR didn't share a lot of nuclear weapons secrets at the time, although the Soviets managed to steal US nuclear secrets with spies.

      Putin praises Cold War moles for stealing U.S. nuclear secrets

      Vladimir Putin praised Cold War-era scientists on Thursday for stealing U.S. nuclear secrets so that United States would not be the world's sole atomic power, in comments reflecting his vision of Russia as a counterweight to U.S. power.

      Spies with suitcases full of data helped the Soviet Union build its atomic bomb, he told military commanders.

      "You know, when the States already had nuclear weapons and the Soviet Union was only building them, we got a significant amount of information through Soviet foreign intelligence channels," Putin said, according to state-run Itar-Tass.

      "The were carrying the information away not on microfilm but literally in suitcases. Suitcases!"

      China has managed to achieve the same feat: Report Stolen data gives China advanced nuclear knowhow

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    3. Re:Um, no he's not a "father" of hydrogen bomb by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Far more interesting is that Sakharov, unlike his American counterpart, became one of the most well-known human rights activists (back then in the USSR!) and tried a lot to redeem his horrible invention. And yet much of the Russian people despise him (for his principled stance on human rights) even more than Americans despise Teller. Strangely mirrored fates.

    4. Re:Um, no he's not a "father" of hydrogen bomb by Lawrence_Bird · · Score: 1

      No, you are incorrect as is the original post. Ulam provided the necessary insight about using compression for the 'Super'. Prior to that, Teller was going nowhere with his design and had already shelved the 'alarm clock'. Sakharov came up with a similar design to the alarm clock and called it 'layer cake'. What is unknown is how much the Soviet program benefited from stolen materials from the American programs. It is almost certain they had the details of work Teller and Fuchs had done.

      Finally, there was a lot of engineering and physics work beyond the overall concept of how the weapon could work. Teller was not a part of this and those individuals, such as Carson Mark, also deserve much credit.

  15. That's a poor reason. by mosb1000 · · Score: 1

    I have no interest in anything to do about him.

    Not understanding why someone did something is a a reason to be interested, since it can bring greater understanding on your part. Being curious is the first step of the scientific method.

    1. Re:That's a poor reason. by mbone · · Score: 1

      I read the complete transcripts of "The Matter of J. Robert Oppenheimer" (700 pages IIRC) and have talked to various people who were involved.

      Teller was a slime and his students were right to shun him.

    2. Re:That's a poor reason. by mbone · · Score: 1

      And Lewis Strauss, the Republican politician who headed the AEC ? Below slime.

  16. Re:Mr. Teller thinks of Iran? Irans are patriotic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Reading the comments below this is a little funny.. I worry about Iran gaining this bomb, and I think right now with the embargo's there thoughts maybe "fuck it" lets build it then go back to the negotiating table and get are way. It does not matter to the Iran Government what happens to its people in the process, including perhaps allies deciding to wipe out Iran if Iran decides to use the bomb. And depending on the area attacked by allies oil prices will be much much higher, if they could still use the oil.

    The other problem with anyone who decides to attack Iran using the bomb is the fallout to surrounding countries plus now the allies have giving more fuel toward those extreme Muslim groups and now they lash out with weapons just as destructive, or flat out increase there attacks on any-and-everyone. It is not very smart for people to just yell out fuck it drop the bomb.

    Iran seems hell bent on building the bomb, and the embargo's do not seem to matter to them. Attacking there nuclear hideouts, or facilities seems to be the only way to end it now or disrupt there plans..

    Mr.Teller is one of those insane scientists that for some reason never gave a shit or really put no thought into the end result of what this weapon would bring. He seems to be a under developed scientist compared to Einstein, who actually seemed to care and had concern for his fellow man/woman..

  17. Sucks to be Russia in that fantasy by dbIII · · Score: 1
    So if it played out they would make sure it also sucks for somebody else.
    You've also ignored pretty well everything that somebody paying a tiny bit of attention to recent history would have noticed, such as the long running horrific war of attrition between Iran and Iraq which has left Iran with the majority of it's population under 25.
    What happens in Iraq is pretty well a race between the younger generation taking control and the old men (as in too old to have fought in that war 20 years ago) getting nukes before they die. How the US and Israel would deal with Iran using a nuke is also not clear. Genocidal fascists in Israel are not going to be in control forever because their very existance is an uncomfortable reminder of exactly what Israel is not meant to be - so it's not even a given that Israel would hit Iran with all it's nukes if Iran started making nuclear threats (eg. nice island you've got there Bahrain - pity if something happened to it). Iran nuking Israel will never be to the benefit of Iran due to never being able to claim any territory over there and due to it creating another threat (response of Israeli allies) instead of removal of a threat.

    I suspect the Ayatollahs' regime wouldn't last a month

    Even if that were the case have you learnt nothing from the last decade in the middle east? It's not actually over until everybody stops shooting.

    Dumb hawks that made sure they never went anywhere on the same continent as a shooting war have shaped too many opinions with "cold war warrior" bullshit.
    The last time the US had military engagements with Iran they lost a lot of people due to political stuffups, choosing the wrong ally who killed a lot of sailors and having a horse judge for a captain that shot down a lot of civilians resulting in Iran financing terrorist payback on a Pan Am 747. War isn't simple and going into it condemns some of your own to death so it needs a very good reason.

  18. Zida by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    if need buy aluminum foil container, pls visit http://www.foilcontainer.com tks!

  19. Video Loses Credibility Due To Errors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Dr. Strangelove was not a general. Sheesh.

  20. Why the Right Wing Progaganda? by Required+Snark · · Score: 3, Insightful
    This post is clearly intended to legitimatize the right wing push to attack Iran.

    Is there any other reason to lionize Teller at this moment in time? The text of the link includes the phrase "a matter of life and horrible death". In other words, an existential threat to Western Civilization. The implied parallel is that Islam and international Communism are similar threats to the West. If Teller is a hero for his position, the all the Republican presidential hopefuls are also heroes for calling for an attack against Iran. And Obama, along with anyone else who advocates caution, is a spineless traitor who want to destroy democracy.

    Pure right wing propaganda.

    Instead of looking back more then 60 years to the late 1940's, let's consider a much more recent and infinitely more relevant event: G. W. Bush's invasion of Iraq. This was a war of choice, and has emerged as the single worst policy mistake in the history of the USA. It cost the US and it's allies hundreds of billions of dollars, tens of thousands of US casualties, and over one hundred thousand civilian causalities in Iraq.

    It made Iran much more powerful, and alienated the entire world from the US. All the European leaders who supported the war fell out of favor. Radical Islamic movements, who really do want to destroy the West, have much more influence in Islamic politics. Even with the nominal end of combat, no one knows when it will really end or how much it will cost, in both life and treasure. We still don't know how badly screwed up we are over this.

    And now Republicans, who lied their teeth out over Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq, are screaming that WE MUST ATTACK IRAN RIGHT NOW!!! So someone decides it's time to raise H-Bomb Teller from his crypt, wrap him up in the stars and stripes, and declare that he saved civilization from the Godless Hoards. Meanwhile, G. W. Bush, who is very much alive and well, is completely missing. He is so off the charts it's like he never existed.

    As far as the Republicans and the mainstream media is concerned, Clinton left office, the world hibernated for 8 years, and then Obama took over. Now there is talk of more war in the Middle East, and no one even speaks the name of Bush. It's not like someone asked his opinion and he responded "no comment". No one is even asking. He has been edited out of history, like in 1984.

    This topic is a de facto intelligence test. If you looked at it and wondered why anyone would be saying these kinds of things about Teller then you pass. If you saw nothing unusual, you failed. Given the kind of comments I've seen so far, everyone reading Slashdot is politically brain dead. If there was some way I could turn off life support for all the flat-lined Slashdot readers, I'd do it in an instant.

    --
    Why is Snark Required?
    1. Re:Why the Right Wing Progaganda? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While I myself am certainly for wiping out Iran (and everything else in the Mideast for that matter, considering they have been nothing but trouble since their last stint of productivity ended, several thousand years ago - and we have the technological means to get off oil before other sources would run dry) - it's hard to digest the notion that it is being pushed as a Republican ideology at the present moment. The Liberals control the media, the Liberals are in office, and the Liberals are currently discussing the topic - leave us out of it or at least stop bickering about how to frame us for something you are starting (at least with Acorn we didn't have to hear you blaming us WHILE YOU WERE STILL ORCHESTRATING THE COLLAPSE OF THE NATION).

    2. Re:Why the Right Wing Progaganda? by qwak23 · · Score: 1

      What. The. Fuck?

      No seriously dude, what the fuck are you smoking and can I have some?

      Did you even RTFA? I'm assuming no, since you're quoting the link and not the article being linked to (and yes, the entire summary does appear in the article, but also a whole lot more).

      Or maybe this is just a troll that got modded insightful because it's always cool to bash the right wing, regardless of context (hey, I can sympathize, I have a tendency to do that too sometimes).

      Fuck man. Holy Fuck.

    3. Re:Why the Right Wing Progaganda? by argStyopa · · Score: 2

      "If there was some way I could turn off life support for all the flat-lined Slashdot readers, I'd do it in an instant."
      Anyone else see the irony of a person ranting about the brutality of George Bush's arbitrary and brutal war, posting in a public forum that he would unhesitatingly MURDER the people that disagree with him?

      And that folks, is what passes for public discourse on policy issues in the USA.

      Note to the OP:
      "...And now Republicans, who lied their teeth out over Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq, are screaming that WE MUST ATTACK IRAN RIGHT NOW!!!"
      2 points:
      1) you might want to check which party holds the presidency, and thus sets foreign policy.
      2) Those darn Republican liars! Wait, no:
      "One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line." President Clinton (D), Feb. 4, 1998.

      "If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program." President Clinton (D), Feb. 17, 1998.

      "Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face." Madeline Albright (D), Feb 18, 1998.

      "He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983." Sandy Berger (D), Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

      "[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs." Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John
      Kerry, (all D)

      "Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998.

      "Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies." Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999.

      "There is no doubt that . Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies." Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others,Dec, 5, 2001.

      "We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them." Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002.

      "We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country." Al Gore (D), Sept. 23, 2002.

      "Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power." Al Gore (D), Sept. 23, 2002.

      "We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seing and developing weapons of mass destruction."

      Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002.

      "The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weap

      --
      -Styopa
    4. Re:Why the Right Wing Progaganda? by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      This post is clearly intended to legitimatize the right wing push to attack Iran.

      Only to someone who sees the entire world through some seriously, seriously, warped preconceptions. If you actually check the site it was published on, it's hardly a hotbed of right-wing activism. In fact, it veers all over the political spectrum (to the limited extent that it's political) and spends most of it's time over in weird lane.
       
      It takes a pretty unhealthy and blinkered worldview to proclaim something posted on a third string website as "pure right wing propaganda".
       

      This topic is a de facto intelligence test.

      And you failed - by leaping from an innocuous and fairly unbiased article to a full on. wild-eyed anti-right wing screed. (Finished off by attempting to stifle discussion by pronouncing those who disagree with you to be "brain dead".)

    5. Re:Why the Right Wing Progaganda? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is the same sad sorry left wing tripe we've been hearing for years. No weapons of mass destruction ? Ask the Turks, google "halabjah" I don't expect you will, because I suspect you already know. But if you really are as naive as you sound, you might learn something

    6. Re:Why the Right Wing Progaganda? by Beelzebud · · Score: 1

      No WMDs were found in Iraq. Get it through your thick skull. You don't get to complain about "left wing tripe", when dishing up a huge plate of the right-wing variety.

    7. Re:Why the Right Wing Progaganda? by Beelzebud · · Score: 1

      I've seen that copy/paste quote mining for a decade now. Here is my response: There is no left wing in American politics. The fact that you can find so many right-wing hawks in the Democratic party is proof. Now try pasting some quotes from Hans Blix and the UN weapons inspectors.

    8. Re:Why the Right Wing Progaganda? by argStyopa · · Score: 1

      You're missing the point.
      The OP declared Republicans (solely) to be responsible for the lies on WMDs.

      I have no problem declaring the 'government class' of BOTH "sides" as collusive scoundrels who have more in common with each other than with any of us unwashed residing outside the beltway.

      I DO have a problem with some brainwashed fanatic's mendacity claiming that somehow "his" side is lily white, and "those other guys" are evil - when they are both patently filthy scum.

      --
      -Styopa
  21. Why is HE the most vilified? by MartinSchou · · Score: 0

    Seriously - how many people have died because of his work? How many has become ill? How has it affected nature?

    Now compare Edward Teller's work to that of Thomas Midgley, Jr. - the inventor of leaded gasoline and CFC!

    Yes - the man who brought you lead poisoning from commuting also brought you the hole in the ozone layer.

    So I ask again - why the hell is Edward Teller the most vilified US scientist, when Thomas Midgley, Jr., is not only from the US, but is essentially the one single organism responsible for the most environmental damage.

    1. Re:Why is HE the most vilified? by Alioth · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Because of this:

      What separates them is intent. Teller knew full well he was designing the weapons to end industrial civilization. Teller was deliberately designing stuff to kill people.

      Thomas Midgley Jr. didn't know when he was developing the things he was developing that they were anything other than helpful to society.

    2. Re:Why is HE the most vilified? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He dare to support the nation that gave him the LIBERTY to pursue his passions. Imagine that, one having plaques on the wall and not seeking to deny or disparage the rights of others like the rest of "educated and enlightened". From patent attorneys to cloud storage engineers, from writers of children's books to neurosurgeons, from lowly computer technicians to housewives of business tycoons, these all have enjoyed the relative freedom from an all-controlling invasive central government thanks to Edward Teller's and Stanislaw Ulam's work.

      There needs to be some disclaimer printed on every sheepskin to the effect of: "This document does not bequeath upon the individual named the authority to interfere with, deny or disparage the rights of others."

      Oh wait, that would remove the incentive for post-secondary education.

    3. Re:Why is HE the most vilified? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Funny, Midgley's history (as recounted by wikipedia) certainly doesn't seem innocent to me. In fact, it appears he perpetrated or participated in several significant lies designed to cover up the health risks of his work for the sake of profit.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley,_Jr.

    4. Re:Why is HE the most vilified? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thomas Midgley Jr. didn't know when he was developing the things he was developing that they were anything other than helpful to society.

      Maybe at some point in his career that was true, but he was more than willing to continue pushing the product long after he knew it was dangerous. I mean, he publicly demonstrated the "safety" lead additives to gasoline for the public by pouring it over his hands and inhaling it on camera -- as a response to public concern over his own employees dying from lead poisoning at one of his plants. Oh, and let's not forget that he himself took time off the year before to recover from lead poisoning from his own research (and after his little publicity stunt too).

      So, yeah. There's no way you can call this man a naive innocent about lead additives. He knew he was pushing poison. Whether he knew it would have the wide-reaching environmental effects it did have or not, he knew it was killing his own employees. You can argue he was innocent on freon, but the man was also developing stuff that killed people. At least Teller was doing it out of ideology instead of for profit.

  22. A Limerick by rafial · · Score: 2

    A bellicose feller named Teller
    That prominent atom bomb seller
    Promotes with aplomb
    The hydrogen bomb
    And tells the uncertain they're yeller!

    -- lifted from the back column of a science mag of my childhood

  23. It's all in how you frame it by shiftless · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It does not matter to the Iran Government what happens to its people in the process, including perhaps allies deciding to wipe out Iran if Iran decides to use the bomb.

    Right, because it's the Iranian government's fault that the United States and it's pals chose to place unwarranted embargoes on Iran, crippling its economy. If the U.S. attacks Iran, it will be because it was "forced" to (at gunpoint, apparently), not because it purposely decided to against all reasoning.

    And depending on the area attacked by allies oil prices will be much much higher, if they could still use the oil.

    Yes, high oil prices is totally the first thing I think of when I imagine the negative effects of blowing people's father's and sons limbs off, bombing homes and cities into rubble, and laying waste and death to a peaceful society.

    The other problem with anyone who decides to attack Iran using the bomb is the fallout to surrounding countries

    Right, because the fallout IN Iran isn't a problem at it.

    Iran seems hell bent on building the bomb, and the embargo's do not seem to matter to them.

    Right, refusing to capitulate to a bully's demands is the same as "not caring" if someone bullies you.

    Attacking there nuclear hideouts, or facilities seems to be the only way to end it now or disrupt there plans..

    False dichotomy because who the hell says we need to "end it now" or "disrupt there (sic) plans"?

    WE DON'T. WE NEED TO START MINDING OUR OWN FUCKING BUSINESS.

    1. Re:It's all in how you frame it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The United States hasn't made a habit of minding it's own business for most of the 20th century. (Plus the bit of the 21st we've had so far.) Among other things, America desperately needs a nice big war to distract its populace from the fact that their current rulers are even more incompetent and greedy than the preceding ones and are rapidly turning the USA into the world's largest banana republic,

    2. Re:It's all in how you frame it by jason777 · · Score: 1

      great post

    3. Re:It's all in how you frame it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're a strong 2nd amendment supporter I take it.

  24. Ironic by shiftless · · Score: 1

    Stupidly ironic because we're standing right now on the precipice of the Third World War.

  25. Stupid and evil by fnj · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Yes, we think Ahmadinejad and the ayatollahs are that stupid. Plainly.

    Next question.

    1. Re:Stupid and evil by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 0

      Yes, we think Ahmadinejad and the ayatollahs are that stupid. Plainly.

      Next question.

      They don't have to be outright stupid, it's entirely sufficient for them to be just disconnected from reality, which they most certainly are.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    2. Re:Stupid and evil by f3rret · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Yes, we think Ahmadinejad and the ayatollahs are that stupid. Plainly.

      Next question.

      The guys run a country, even if it is run in a way you disagree with, and that makes them smarter than you already.

      --
      Admit nothing. Deny Everything. Make Counter-accusations.
    3. Re:Stupid and evil by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They don't have to be outright stupid, it's entirely sufficient for them to be just disconnected from reality, which they most certainly are.

      Wow! How did you gauge that?

      If I admit that I think the whole west is disconnected from reality, it doesn't make much sense, does it? They make the reality after all...

      The quarrel is about who has a say on the realities of the world and who doesn't. Your only sense of certainty comes from the fact that Iran is less powerful in your mind. If there were a chance that they would win a direct confrontation, your language would be totally different.

      Also, I don't think you really believe that politicians believe in their own senseless rhetoric.

      The fact that some ruling class is taking high risks to preserve its existence doesn't mean that it is out of touch with reality either.

    4. Re:Stupid and evil by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, we think Ahmadinejad and the ayatollahs are that stupid. Plainly.

      Next question.

      The guys run a country, even if it is run in a way you disagree with, and that makes them smarter than you already.

      So by that definition you are admitting you are dumber than G. W. Bush? Since when did the idea of serfdom, that our leaders are our betters and we should follow them blindly, come back into style?

    5. Re:Stupid and evil by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, you think they are that stupid. Plainly.

      Fixed that for y'a...

    6. Re:Stupid and evil by jamstar7 · · Score: 1

      Reagan's first term, IIRC. Particularly, the 'guru' of the NeoCons, Leo Strauss, Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Strauss & http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_Nightmares for starters. 'The Power of Nightmares' should be available on any torrent site you choose to use, and I highly recommend you watch it sometime. They talk about all the usual suspects, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Kristol, Rumsfeld, et. al., the political disciples of Strauss and why it's important to flood America with myths to keep us from becoming 'selfish liberals' with 'no patriotism'. Said disciples started coming to power during Reagan, including the infamous 'Team B' project where the CIA was politicized to provide propaganda for American consumption to whip up the American people to 'fight the Godless Commies'. The Team B reports have become declassified, and make for some seriously disturbing reading.

      --
      Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
    7. Re:Stupid and evil by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then you watch WAAAY too much Fox News.

    8. Re:Stupid and evil by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 1

      Yes, we think Ahmadinejad and the ayatollahs are that stupid. Plainly

      Next question

      The guys run a country, even if it is run in a way you disagree with, and that makes them smarter than you already

      So by that definition you are admitting you are dumber than G. W. Bush? Since when did the idea of serfdom, that our leaders are our betters and we should follow them blindly, come back into style?

      Dayum ! How I wish I can mod you up !

      --
      Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    9. Re:Stupid and evil by shiftless · · Score: 1

      Then you're a moron

  26. U.S. gov: We can lie to help war investors. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Another war will make you poor.

  27. Communists != Muslims by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Rules of MAD don't apply to Islamic regimes the same way that they did to Communists. Sure, the Communists (Soviets & Chinese) were evil, but they were at least rational about it - while they undoubtedly wanted to wipe out their enemies, they themselves wanted to survive. Which is why deterence worked during the Cold War. During that time, there were a lot of espionage & terrorist acts pulled off by the NKVD/KGB, but how many suicide bombings does anybody remember that the Soviets did?

    This does not apply to Islamic states. If they get hold of nukes and have the confidence that they can destroy their enemies, they'd be only too happy to do it, even if it means a nuclear retaliation. The entire phenomenon of suicide bombers makes it clear that they'd be happy to pay the price if they can have some guarantee that they'll wipe out their enemies - like Israel or India. The only reason Pakistan hasn't done it as yet is that they don't have enough nukes to wipe out India, and their long range missiles don't cover even most of India. The reason Iran hasn't done it to Israel is that they've not completed it as yet.

    It's bad enough that Pakistan has nukes, and the only reason they're not a threat to the US is that they don't have the ICBMs that can get anywhere even close. Iran getting them would be just as ugly. Also, just like Muslims hate Infidels, within the ummah, there are the various sectarian divisions, like the Shia vs the Sunni. Saudi Arabia can't stand the idea of a Shia Iran having the bomb, because that's the sort of power it needs to convert entire Sunni populations to Shia (like in the case of Lebanon). So Iran's getting nukes will start an arms race where oil-rich countries like Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, et al will pay Pakistan to give them a part of their arsenal. Even in Iran vs Israel, the Saudis won't want the Shia to look like heros of the Islamic world for wiping out the Jews.

    1. Re:Communists != Muslims by olau · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You're being irrational. Suicide bombers are employed as a last resort against a technically superior enemy. I'm sure that if you go back in time, you'll find that all major religions have had suicidal fighters in one way or another. It has nothing to do with religion.

      The fact that you conclude that the communists "undoubtedly wanted to wipe out their enemies" just shows how narrow you're thinking about this. The tragedy of an arms race like in the cold war is that both sides are building weapons out of fear of an attack. It's madness.

    2. Re:Communists != Muslims by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      great post. +1 to you sir

    3. Re:Communists != Muslims by jimbolauski · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Suicide bombers are pawns, they have been manipulated into killing themselves to murder other people. Their commanders are not so "dedicated to the cause" that they become suicide bombers. World leaders love their power and will do anything to keep it, nuking another country is a sure way for them to lose that power, which is why they won't do it. MAD still works for countries, the real worry with nukes is if they fall into non-state actors hands, with little to lose when retaliation happens they are the biggest danger. Even then the origin of the bomb will be found and the country that supplied it probably be dealt with in the same manor, Afghanistan comes to mind as a good example but there would be many more participants.

      --
      Knowledge = Power
      P= W/t
      t=Money
      Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
    4. Re:Communists != Muslims by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The key there in what you said is "confidence that they can destroy their enemies". No one in the leadership of Iran is confident that they can destroy their enemies, not today, not tomorrow, not when they finally break through and get the bomb. Hell, we could even spot them a half-dozen ICBM's and they would not have that kind of confidence. Iran is a second rate power. Hell - Iran is worse than a second rate power. Iran is a third rate power. And all the nuclear weapons in the world are not going to change that.

      Could Iran, within a few years (assuming a fairly robust weapons program) launch a highly effective nuclear strike on Israel. Yes. But Israel isn't their primary enemy - not even close. While the destruction of Israel may be their primary goal, their primary enemy is (as it always is when the interests of the United States are involved) the USA. And no amount of catching up is going to let Iran even put a dent in the mighty military-industrial complex that is the USA. Lets say they drop a nuke on Israel. The USA possesses enough nuclear capacity to turn Iran into a sheet of glass. However that's only the weapon of last resort - Iran won't get nuked because there's no need to nuke Iran (and possibly provoke other nuclear powers and setting off a nuclear war). No one that matters (China, Russia, the UK and France) would even bat an eye at a conventional retaliation against Iran after a nuclear attack (much the same as Russia more or less let NATO conquer Afghanistan - a nation traditionally at least partially in their sphere of influence - after 9/11). The USN closes of the Straits of Hormuz and launches enough cruise missiles to make "Shock and Awe" look like one of those cheap $25 firework sets. The USAF turns any and all military installations into rubble (using lessons learned from the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan). NATO special forces "liberate" key Iranian oilfields to ensure the free flow of crude to the allies and drop in on any place where there is even a click on the Geiger Counter to secure any remaining atomic weapons. Eventually ground troops launch a concentrated attack and Iran falls. Iraq fell within 20 days. Iran may take slightly longer but I'd put the over-under at about 45 days.

      In the mean time there is absolutely no way for Iran to make the USA do any more than wince. Even assuming they could sneak a nuke into the US to be used by suicide bombers, what are they going to do? Blow up New York? Ask Bin Laden how well that worked out for him in the end. Even if they managed to somehow get three into the country and detonate them more or less together that still doesn't put a dent in the USA's industrial capability. And now you have US armed forces and citizens who want nothing more than to see your head on a pike.

      Nukes are just a show piece. They're good for making people afraid. They're great one off attacks. But unless you've got enough to win a war in one shot (and there's no way Iran gets to this point) then the true power is in the navy and (to a lesser extent the air force). To win a war, especially against the USA you need to be able to project your force over a great distance. Iran doesn't have a chance.

    5. Re:Communists != Muslims by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Someone's been drinking the propaganda cool-aid, I see.

    6. Re:Communists != Muslims by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Oh, please! No religion had suicide bombers - except Muslims. And in their case, the bulk of their attacks have been done against either civilians (be it 9/11, 3/11, 7/7, the many bombings in Israel, Bali, Mumbai, Moscow, Beslan, et al, not against combatants in enemy armies. It's not a tactic of war, it's a tactic of terror, but the same mindset that inspires individual suicide bombers to blow themselves up where they can cause the maximum damage also applies to the leadership of countries who are willing to let countless of their own people die if they can wipe out their enemy in the process.

      The fact that you are oblivious to things such as the purges by Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Che Guevara (that favorite darling of Hollywood's elite) as well as Soviet repression in Eastern Europe during the Cold War shows how clueless you are about Communists, just like you are about Muslims. Had the west not engaged in an arms race, all of Europe - not just Eastern - would have been 'Democratic Republics', and maybe even the US and Canada as well as all of Latin America would have been run by our overlords in Moscow. Instead of voting our own Socialist president like Obama, our Socialist president today would have been handpicked by the Secretariat of the CPSU.

    7. Re:Communists != Muslims by dirtyhippie · · Score: 1

      This new evil is *way* more evil than any evil we have seen before, so the old rules do not apply.

      Now get back to your cubicles and build me some more dual-use technologies, whee!

      Americuh, fuck yeah!

    8. Re:Communists != Muslims by careysub · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Rules of MAD don't apply to Islamic regimes the same way that they did to Communists. Sure, the Communists (Soviets & Chinese) were evil, but they were at least rational about it - while they undoubtedly wanted to wipe out their enemies, they themselves wanted to survive. Which is why deterence worked during the Cold War. During that time, there were a lot of espionage & terrorist acts pulled off by the NKVD/KGB, but how many suicide bombings does anybody remember that the Soviets did?

      ...

      How short the memories.

      During the Cold War the hysteria-mongers routinely argued that the Communists could not be deterred because they cared nothing for human life - arguments trotted out for this view were the tens of millions of deaths in the Stalinist and Maoist purges and engineered famines, the way life was literally thrown away in Gulags, and in WWII how millions of Soviet soldiers were carelessly sacrificed for negligible battlefield effect (and the same with Chinese and North Korean soldiers a few years later, and North Vietnamese and Cambodian soldiers decades after that). Various quotes by Lenin were commonly repeated (some of them fictitious*) to show the utter ruthlessness, and that their messianic belief in the inevitable victory of Communism made them indifferent to the possibility of nuclear war since Communism would survive.**

      And most of the statements about Communist behavior were true. But a big difference is it was never the leadership, the state itself that was put at risk. Nuclear weapons change that completely. That alone makes the whole claim completely invalid.

      *The favored fake quote, often repeated was this one: "What does it matter if three-fourths of the world perish, if the remaining one fourth are good communists?" attributed to Lenin.

      **Counter-evidence, like Stalin's decision not to seize West Berlin, Khruschev's hasty back-down in Cuba, and the striking intolerance to taking casualties in the 1980s after the Afghanistan invasion were ignored.

      This "Islamists are insane and are not afraid of nuclear war" is just a retread of the same Cold War tripe.

      --
      Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
    9. Re:Communists != Muslims by jackbird · · Score: 4, Informative

      I was unaware the Japanese Imperial Navy indoctrinated their kamikaze pilots in Islam.

      Nor the Viet Cong with their suicide bombers.

      And that's just the conflicts I can think of off the top of my head involving the USA.

    10. Re:Communists != Muslims by rbrander · · Score: 2

      Ah, callow youth. Trust me, child, we heard all this about the Commies back in the day.

      They were *fanatically*, *suicidally* dedicated to their evil ideology. Or the Top Bosses had deep bunkers and cared nothing for the survival of their zombiefied slaves. Or they were just so insane they actually believed they could simply win a nuclear war, get all our bombs before we could launch them...by smuggling in bombs and planting them on our open society. The same way they supported world-wide terrorism. (Yes, we had terrorism in the 20th century too, honest. Except for the 9/11 one-off, the worst years were actually the 80s, by event-count or body-count.)

      And I think I missed a few scenarios, all of which required us to keep our powder dry, allow no missile gap, and, preferably, just do a first-strike...since we could win with "acceptable losses".

      Fortunately, non-crazy people prevailed, and here we are, listening to you. Again. Same crap, different boogieman. This one has about 1% of the Soviet Union's military budget, so you can imagine how funny it sounds to those who've heard it before when it at least WAS a largish "empire" instead of one little barely-industrialized country.

    11. Re:Communists != Muslims by khallow · · Score: 3, Informative

      No religion had suicide bombers - except Muslims.

      We also ignore nominally secular organizations like the LTTE (the "Tamil Tigers") in Sri Lanka who conducted hundreds of suicide bombings.

      but the same mindset that inspires individual suicide bombers to blow themselves up where they can cause the maximum damage also applies to the leadership of countries who are willing to let countless of their own people die if they can wipe out their enemy in the process.

      Or doesn't. There's plenty of reason to suspect hypocrisy in the upper ranks of Islamic-themed terrorist organizations.

    12. Re:Communists != Muslims by bjdevil66 · · Score: 2

      This does not apply to Islamic states... wiping out the Jews.

      Wow - just... wow. This is an arrogant, ignorant and xenophobic rant, full of half-baked stereotypes and generalizations, all based on a broad and ignorant stereotype that has led to sporadic wars between Christian and Muslim cultures for over a millenium.

      I suggest that you rent the movie Persepolis and watch it. It may remind you that 99.9% of the people living in Iran are not an "Islamic state". Instead, they're people just like us, with a nutjob regime that they need to get rid of by themselves. (I think we've proven without a doubt (again - until the next generation has forgotten our learned lessons) that nation building and preemptive strikes to change regimes is nothing more than a trillion dollar waste of resources and human lives.)

    13. Re:Communists != Muslims by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LTTE wasn't a 'nominally secular' group - they were purely a Tamil supremacist group, who were not driven by any religious (i.e. Hindu) ideologies. In fact, their biggest patrons in Madras (a party called the DMK) was/is all about Dravidian supremacy and is led by committed athiests. The LTTE, though not Islamic, had Libya as one of their backers.

      As for the other examples of the Kamikaze pilots, it's true that they had suicide bombers, but when Japan was threatened with anhilation after Hiroshima, they started negotiating for peace. Even they had a rational will to survive. I was unaware that the Viet Cong had suicide bombers.

    14. Re:Communists != Muslims by TheLink · · Score: 1

      You may find many leaders of religious countries aren't actually very religious - they just pretend to be. So they might not want to die so soon. Many of them might even be hoping/betting there isn't a God (otherwise they'd be in deep shit).

      Revolutionary Guard General Reza Zare'i, the Commander of the Police for Greater Tehran had been arrested three weeks ago enjoying the company of six completely nude women parading in a house he had rented, the websites reported, adding that the women had told agents that the General had told them to take off all their dresses and pray completely nude. "The General ordered us to take all our clothes and pray. "

      They did not say what was the reason the general wanted them to pray completely nude, but said he would just watch them praying.

      Zarei was himself in charge of the so called "Public security plan" which was aimed at enforcing Islamic dress code and fight indecent behavior of youth in the Iranian capital.

      --
    15. Re:Communists != Muslims by painandgreed · · Score: 1

      Oh, please! No religion had suicide bombers - except Muslims.

      WW2 era kamakazi pilots were not doubt the state mandated version of Shinto. At the time, Japan was a theocratic state.

    16. Re:Communists != Muslims by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course! Stuff one can learn by reading history & following the news - why do all that at all? Jsut watch something from Hollywood that has starry eyed images about the 'real people of Iran' and pretend that everything's hunky-dory! Never mind surveys of Iranians that have shown that most Iranians are to some extent or the other supportive of their regime, as well as Hamas and Hizbullah.

    17. Re:Communists != Muslims by khallow · · Score: 1

      who were not driven by any religious (i.e. Hindu) ideologies

      In other words, a group not driven by religious ideology yet was dogmatic as the worst of religion. Hence, the use of the term, "nominally secular".

      but when Japan was threatened with anhilation after Hiroshima, they started negotiating for peace.

      Such sacrifice works when you benefit your side and cause harm to the enemy. When you can't, then suicide bombing and such just doesn't look that attractive any more. With nuclear weapons, the US could destroy the Japanese at relatively low cost to themselves. No amount of sacrifice by the Japanese could have changed that.

    18. Re:Communists != Muslims by SillyHamster · · Score: 1

      The tragedy of an arms race like in the cold war is that both sides are building weapons out of fear of an attack. It's madness.

      Bear in mind this mindset came after a World War where one side avoided building weapons out of fear of accidentally using them. War happened anyways because it only takes one side to start it up.

      And that response was in itself an attempt to avoid the mistakes of the previous World War, where several nations built up their military to show off their national epeenery, and a small spark set off a chain reaction that destroyed an entire generation of young men.

      So as silly as the fear may seem, I'd take the lack of total world war over some of the possible alternatives.

    19. Re:Communists != Muslims by Cigarra · · Score: 1

      Where is the "-1 Nonsense" moderation option when you need it?

      --
      I don't have a sig.
    20. Re:Communists != Muslims by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 1

      Nor the Viet Cong with their suicide bombers

      Would you mind showing us the proof of "Viet Cong Suicide Bombers" ?

      --
      Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    21. Re:Communists != Muslims by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 1

      There is a funny thing going on

      When people getting paranoid about how bias the news has become, how untrustworthy the news organizations are, those same people switched alliance and turn to Hollywood

      Suddenly the "Muslims are friendly" themes from Hollywood movies become their new "Gospel Truth"

      --
      Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    22. Re:Communists != Muslims by jackbird · · Score: 1

      I wasn't aware this was a controversial claim.

      The US Army says they did, and I think it's a bit far from the events in question to be propaganda.

      If you prefer a non-governmental source, here's something I found on Google books.

    23. Re:Communists != Muslims by bill_tvm · · Score: 1

      IIRC, Many of the leaders of LTTE were Christians

    24. Re:Communists != Muslims by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They may have had nominal Christians and Hindus in their leadership, but what drove them was a mix of Tamil supremacy and Marxist ideology. Different from the Jihadis, who are driven solely by Islam

    25. Re:Communists != Muslims by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nothing like the 'America is evil' meme to help you to get a such a profound understanding of such issues

    26. Re:Communists != Muslims by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nothing like the good ole 'America is EVIL' meme to help you understand all the world's problems

  28. Facts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hey wait a minute, this guy didn't invent ice nine!

  29. Free? by WillKemp · · Score: 1

    Including the USA in the "free world" is a bit of a joke - it's got the highest incarceration rate on the planet, by a very long way!

  30. The Poet by braindrainbahrain · · Score: 1

    A is for Atom
    Something so small
    No one has seen one
    No one at all

    B is for Bomb
    Something much bigger
    And brother,
    You'd better be careful with that trigger

    Teller read those words for a PBS documentary (Nova?) years ago.

  31. WtF is a "Horrible Death" ? by kjhambrick · · Score: 1

    Dead is Dead

    1. Re:WtF is a "Horrible Death" ? by JockTroll · · Score: 0

      There's a big difference between being fucked to death by a horny sex goddess out of Victoria's Secret catalogue and drowning in a septic tank. Of course, for loserboy nerds like you the second option is the only one possible.

      --
      Geeks are so full of shit that "beating the crap out of them" takes a whole new meaning.
    2. Re:WtF is a "Horrible Death" ? by kjhambrick · · Score: 1

      prove it ...

    3. Re:WtF is a "Horrible Death" ? by deadweight · · Score: 1

      Two deaths I know of: A - And old relative went to bed and died while sleeping. B - A plane crashed and the canopy jammed. The 2 people inside were banging away on it while the plane burned and onlookers could do nothing to help. You pick! Also throw dying of burns and radiation sickness in there someplace.

    4. Re:WtF is a "Horrible Death" ? by dwye · · Score: 1

      There's a big difference between being fucked to death by a horny sex goddess out of Victoria's Secret catalogue and drowning in a septic tank. Of course, for loserboy nerds like you the second option is the only one possible.

      prove it ...

      Careful. He's likely to start by arranging the second method, first.

  32. The Nazis could have kept Teller by blind+biker · · Score: 2

    The Nazis could have kept Teller and a huge bunch of other excellent Jewish scientists, if only their grotesque racism didn't blind them, and push the Jewish scientists to the West (the USA mostly).

    I think we can be all very thankful for the Nazis' idiocy, because their anti-Jewish propaganda might just have saved the world.

    --
    "The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
    1. Re:The Nazis could have kept Teller by deadweight · · Score: 1

      If they had kept all their scientists the UK might have had nuclear armed V2s raining down. OUCH!

    2. Re:The Nazis could have kept Teller by wfstanle · · Score: 1

      Or they might have recognised the danger of allowing them to leave and exterminated them instead!

    3. Re:The Nazis could have kept Teller by dwye · · Score: 1

      The Nazis could have kept Teller and a huge bunch of other excellent Jewish scientists, if only their grotesque racism didn't blind them, and push the Jewish scientists to the West (the USA mostly).

      But then they would not have been Nazis, just ordinary nationalists, and no one would have cared about them.

      Anyway, it is obvious why the Nazis were so anti-Jewish. The Jews had the highest per capita rate of officers in the Imperial Army during the Kaiserian war, and thus proved their superiority by the Germans' own criteria, so the southern Germans and Austrians (the least respected portion) had to kill off the Jews before they were out-competed. Simple Darwinism.

  33. What the fuck? by Any+Web+Loco · · Score: 2

    Surely you're not serious?!

    1. Re:What the fuck? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, yeah, actually he is. If your worldview is based on "shit happens" then consequences aren't nearly as bad as you'd think, because shit happens and you go to heaven.

    2. Re:What the fuck? by Jawnn · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Surely you're not serious?!

      I believe that he is. He lets Fox News shape his "fair and balanced" view of the world. I mean, after all, all Muslim's are potential suicide bombers. Right? So it follows that all "Islamic" states have the same suicidal thoughts.

    3. Re:What the fuck? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Fox News - more than 5% of it is owned by that Saudi Prince Alaweed bin Talal. They may be right wing on other things, but on this subject of Muslims & Islam, they are completely in bed with the Mullahs. As for all Muslims being potential suicide bombers, it's not totally up to them - most Muslim majority countries (with exceptions like the ex Soviet 'stans') are Islamic countries, and Islamic law is what prevails. As a result, if they happen to be at loggerheads with non Muslim neighbors, like in the case of Hamas & Syria vs Israel, Pakistan vs India, Sudan vs South Sudan, Somalia vs Kenya, they are more likely to adapt the destroy at all costs attitude, which the Soviets never did.

    4. Re:What the fuck? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You do realise that the only reason why we tolerate Islam is because many Islamic states have oil, right? Otherwise we would have got rid of Muhammad the paedophile and his stupid followers a very long time ago.

    5. Re:What the fuck? by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      We tried that once. Didn't work out so well. Now we have this concept of freedom of religion, you know, where you don't get harass or kill people because they don't worship the way you think they should.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  34. The Nuclear Football by dtmos · · Score: 1

    See the nuclear football:

    The United States has a two-man rule in place, and while only the President can order the release of nuclear weapons, the order must be confirmed by the Secretary of Defense (there is a hierarchy of succession in the event that the President has been killed in an attack). Once all the codes have been verified, the military would issue attack orders to the proper units. These orders are given and then re-verified for authenticity.

  35. It was the time, not the man by nashv · · Score: 1

    Edward Teller was just projecting the attitude of his time - an attitude based on economic theories stating that human society functions in a way where it's 'every man for himself'.

    The RAND Corporation militarized this idea, and the nuclear arms race began as a solution to what was seen as a 'game of chicken', when in fact , it was Prisoner's dilemma.

    Fortunately, we live in a time when this doctrine has been shown to be false and altruism has received better appreciation.

    --
    Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem.
  36. Read "Black Sun" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Read "Black Sun" by Richard Rhodes... An excellent telling of the entire story of the H-bomb from both the American and Soviet sides. One of the best books I ever read. Very much like a spy novel.

  37. Essential for freedom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hydrogen bombs are essential for freedom, just like the right to have weapons is essential for free people. Any country who appreciates its own freedom should develop them.

  38. Radioactive signature by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    IANANP (I am not a nuclear physicist) but IIRC the fissionable material will have a distinguishable signature (decay rate, etc.) nailing down exactly which reactor the material came from. If we can get over the immediate "teh nuked R country, kill 'em" before finding out who "teh" are, it will be known exactly where it came from.

    1. Re:Radioactive signature by QuantumPion · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No. IAANP and that is hollywood fiction.

    2. Re:Radioactive signature by JTsyo · · Score: 1

      Sum of All Fears was a book before a movie

  39. bomb me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This topic is to manly for this site.

  40. That's Why it Took Two Bombs & the Emperor by geoffrobinson · · Score: 1

    Did is take, not one, but two bombs and the Emperor intervening because they were trying so hard for peace? Wasn't there also an attempted coup because high-ranking officers couldn't stomach surrender?

    Maybe they would have surrendered after another million Japanese died. Even if what you say is true, the atomic bomb saved both Japanese and American lives.

    --
    Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
    1. Re:That's Why it Took Two Bombs & the Emperor by dwye · · Score: 1

      Actually, it was the mid-range officers that tried the coup, and the fact that they could get none of the generals to join in, after the second A-bomb, that defeated it.

      BTW, the second A-bomb was necessary to prove that the first was not a one-time thing, like the recent earthquake and tsunami was. Once could have been a coincidence, or the only one that we had. Two ends the denial phase.

  41. Everything you ever wanted to know about the Bomb. by Droog57 · · Score: 1

    Everything you ever wanted to know about the Bomb but were afraid to ask. It really helps if you have a little bit of knowledge of Physics, but there is stuff here that I thought had never been declassified. Like detailed information on Initiators and hydrodynamics. Be prepared to spend a few hours reading it. Bet Ahmawannajihad has it bookmarked. http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Nwfaq/Nfaq0.html

    --
    "If the only tool that you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail." Donny Rumsfeld
  42. And he most certainly had a small dick by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    n/t

  43. Your .sig by Anonymous+Meoward · · Score: 1

    Not to be picky, but Abraham Maslow, the psychologist and father of the concept of 'self-actualization', was the first to use that expression.

    --
    --- The American Way of Life is not a birthright. Hell, it's not even sustainable.
    1. Re:Your .sig by Droog57 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I know, but Rummy used it as well as part of Rumsfeld's Rules, and I like Rummy way better than some freaky new age guy. Rummy rocked.

      --
      "If the only tool that you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail." Donny Rumsfeld
  44. Re:Everything you ever wanted to know about the Bo by Droog57 · · Score: 1

    Oh, and a couple of points on Teller. He was freaking out for three years tring to get his Classical Super to pass muster in calculations but no matter what varioations and changes were made to the model, it was always a fizzle. Huge waste of time and brainpower went in to that failure. It wasn't until Stan Ulam had the breakthrough regarding using one bomb to set off another that anything started to happen. And what Teller did was to come up with the fairly obvious additions of using the radiation from the primary as the implosion force and adding the Plutonium "Spark Plug" in the center of the Secondary, And Teller agressively shut out Ulam from any recognition for that initial, pivotal contribution. Teller was such a pain in the ass to work with at Los Alamos that Oppie would not give him a Group Leader role, hence the backstabbing that happened later, and during the engineering development phase of the "Super" they kicked him out of Los Alamos. He wasn't even allowed to attend the Ivy Mike test, and spent the time staring at a siesmograph in Berkley waiting to see if it twitched. After that, OK, he played the Evangelist, but for the poster waayy up there, there was no huge boon to Nuclear Physics generated by the development of either bomb. All of the theoretical and experimental work was basically done by the time they broke ground at Los Alamos. Teller was no Einstein, or Bethe, or Bohr. Feynman had more impact on Physics than Teller.

    --
    "If the only tool that you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail." Donny Rumsfeld
  45. Why now? by danzvash · · Score: 1

    I'm just curious - what brought Edward Teller to the interest of Slashdot all of a sudden? It's not an anniversary of anything that I'm aware of - so why are we now talking about this particular physicist?

    As far as I can make out, he wasn't much of a nice guy. From the Wikipedia article on him: 'Nobel Prize winning physicist Isidor I. Rabi once suggested that "It would have been a better world without Teller."'

    Also - is anybody on Slashdot going to make the connection with good ol' Bob Lazar? You know, the guy who supposedly worked at Area51 in the late 80s and supposedly worked in a facility where they were working on back-engineering alien flying saucers, stored underground? It's a great story, even if it is largely (but not totally) uncorroborated. Well, Lazar claims that Teller got him the job, after a chance meeting at Los Alamos Research Labs. Teller was interviewed about this years afterwards, and didn't seem too happy. Look on Youtube for "UFOs The Lazar Tape ... And Excerpts From The Government Bible" - it's a 40 min doc, but the Teller reference pops up at about 35m50. Worth a look, perhaps.

  46. Taiwan and China: balance of power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    An interesting historical incident that most Americans have forgotten -- during the Cold War, Taiwan started a covert nuclear weapons program and apparently they got quite far -- until the US marched in and disassembled it. Quite literally, we had US agents in their laboratories packing it up.

    Geopolitically, the move made a great deal of sense for the US. It served to defuse tensions with the communist sphere, maintain non-proliferation, and allowed us to exert continued hegemony over Taiwan. But it sold them up the creek (there's no way they could develop such as weapon today with the CCP being as strong as they are now), and the next time we debate whether we have a duty to defend Taiwan, I hope we remember our role in the current lop-sided balance of power across the Formosa strait.

  47. -1 Where is the news ? by Bomazi · · Score: 1

    Has slashdot morphed into the history channel ?

  48. Father of the Hydrogen Bomb? by dgharmon · · Score: 1

    Isn't this a bit too much Freudian ?

    --
    AccountKiller
  49. Actually, there will be more! by wfstanle · · Score: 1

    Actually, a large part of the radioactive fallout does not come from the bomb itself. The bomb makes a huge excess of neutrons and these neutrons irradiate the debris from the bomb and create isotopes which are radioactive.

  50. "Conditional Surrender" vs Unconditional Surrender by SummitCO · · Score: 2

    You need some better understanding of the Japanese culture at the time. They wouldn't have surrendered to the USA to avoid the Soviets. They were not the Germans. The goal was to fight to the last and they didn't care which barbarian flag was going to fly after they all gloriously sacrificed themselves to the Emperor. Yes, they sent out peace feelers, but that is more than a little red herring as you present it. If you research the subject and discover what the Japanese had in mind as acceptable terms for a cessation of hostilities: there would be no occupation by foreign troops, the Japanese would keep some of their conquered territories, Japan would disarm itself. Even Gar Alperovitz admitted to this in his book that popularized the idea that we were primarily trying to intimidate the Soviets (this was merely an incidental bonus). The Japanese were NEVER going to agree to a surrender with an occupation and war crimes prosecutions as long as they figured they could bleed the Americans to their terms in a bloody protracted conflict. Plenty of the leadership did not want to surrender even after two bombs; there was a coup attempt in order avoid the unconditional surrender. The Allies would NEVER accept the Japanese idea of a conditional surrender. They (including the Soviets) committed to unconditional surrender because they knew 1. There must never be any doubt that the Japanese and Germans were TRULY beaten 2. It was necessary to completely reform the culture. Failure to accomplish these goals after WWI directly resulted in the mindset behind the Nazi rise to power in WWII. The Nazi party line was very much: "We were never really beaten in The Great War, but rather betrayed by Communists and Jewish traitors in our government. Germany should be resurgent and reclaim its honor." It is very easy to see a resurgent Japan had they been allowed conditional surrender.

  51. The Middle East nuclear arms race in context by DragonWriter · · Score: 2

    Rules of MAD don't apply to Islamic regimes the same way that they did to Communists. Sure, the Communists (Soviets & Chinese) were evil, but they were at least rational about it - while they undoubtedly wanted to wipe out their enemies, they themselves wanted to survive.

    Muslims, like Christians, American patriots, Communists, and people with lots of other belief systems, have a notable and vocal subgroup that holds that it is better to die than to live in circumstances where there values are not realized.

    OTOH, that obviously doesn't make them particularly special -- every group to which MAD has applied has had the same kind of groups (and the USSR, China, and USA also had regimes that were, publicly at least, convinced that they had survivability measures in place to allow the regime to survive a large-scale nuclear exchange, so as well as the "live in our preferred manner or die" element, there was also the "nuclear war is winnable" element to contend with.

    The entire phenomenon of suicide bombers makes it clear that they'd be happy to pay the price if they can have some guarantee that they'll wipe out their enemies - like Israel or India.

    No, it doesn't, because suicide bombers, you'll note, aren't generally from the privileged classes that lead the countries -- their usually from social groups oppressed by even the local government, and affiliated with organizations opposed to their local governments. Suicide bombers are from groups that have nothing to lose, but those aren't the people making decisions about national strategy.

    The people making decisions about national strategy have lots to lose, and generally have expended considerable effort to acquire and secure those things that they would stand to lose.

    The only reason Pakistan hasn't done it as yet is that they don't have enough nukes to wipe out India, and their long range missiles don't cover even most of India.

    Pakistan doesn't want to destroy India, it wants to control territory over which it has had conflict with India since the two countries became independent countries. Both the Pakistani and the Indian nuclear forces exist in large part to deter the other from extreme action in regard to that ongoing conflict (though India's also exists as a counterbalance to China).

    The reason Iran hasn't done it to Israel is that they've not completed it as yet.

    Iran hasn't launched on offensive war anywhere since the Islamic Revolution (they have been the victim of a war launched by Iraq with the support of the US -- and Kuwait and Saudi Arabia; interestingly, since then, the states that initiated and backed that war against Iran have since fought two additional wars among themselves, starting right after the end of the war with Iran.)

    Also, just like Muslims hate Infidels, within the ummah, there are the various sectarian divisions, like the Shia vs the Sunni. Saudi Arabia can't stand the idea of a Shia Iran having the bomb

    Most of the Sunni-ruled states that can't stand Iran having the bomb can't stand Israel having it either, so Iran having it doesn't really change things.

    So Iran's getting nukes will start an arms race where oil-rich countries like Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, et al will pay Pakistan to give them a part of their arsenal.

    The Middle East/North Africa nuclear arms race has been going on a long time -- including various states in the region purchasing nuclear weapons technology from Pakistan -- and the main catalyst for it is Israel's nuclear arsenal, not the maybe-someday Iranian one. So Iran can't start a nuclear arms race in the region, because Israel did that decades ago and its still going on -- Iran getting nuclear weapons would be a product of that arms race, not its initiator.

  52. MAD and the Middle Eastern Arms Race by SummitCO · · Score: 1

    There are two problems here: 1. Deterrence through MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) requires two rational actors interested in self preservation and a credible deterrent force for each. The USSR vs the USA met these definitions. The worry is that the the Iranian theocracy is not rational or revolution could result in even less rational leaders. Thus, the idea that Iranian nukes are unusable because the USA and Israel can deter Iran is a theory on shaky ground. 2. The inevitable nuclear arms race in an incredibly unstable region the crux of the problem. Iran is Persian and predominantly Shia. The Arabs are predominantly Sunni. Arabs and Persians have quite the rivalry. Sunnis and Shias hate each other. Iran and the Arab nations do not like each other. A nuclear Iran becomes a regional superpower and can intimidate and enforce its will in the region. Do the Arab states really believe the USA will nuke Tehran if the Iranians demand Yemen grant the Iranians whatever they happen to demand? The bottom line is that Arab states will need to get nukes or be subject to Iranian hegemey. Iran leads to a dozen more nuclear states, then the worry of problem #1 above magnify plus the possibility of a nuke being lost or going to terrorists increases exponentially. A regional arms race was not a problem with North Korea. It is with Iran. A nuclear Iran drastically increases the chances of a mushroom cloud over some city in the following ten or twenty years.

  53. Nuclear retaliation by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

    Suppose Iran used a nuke against North Korea?

    Why on Earth would Iran want to do that? Iran, North Korea, and Pakistan have a fairly well documented collaboration on nuclear weapons technology.

    China would disapprove, but America might not. The UK probably would approve. Who would retaliate against Iran? Who would be allowed to bomb or even nuke Teheran?

    Yes, if Iran launched something that might be a nuke in China's direction (look at a map), China would probably reduce Iran to ashes before the missile hit anywhere.

    And if Iran launched something that might be a nuke anywhere near the direction of Japan and South Korea, the US probably would do the same.

    Given the geography, Russia probably would have similar concerns, and Pakistan might as well.

    And North Korea's delivery technology is on par with Iran's and their actual weapons technology is ahead, so presumably we can expect that by the time Iran has both usable warheads and the reach to hit North Korea, the reverse is also true, so North Korea would probably get in on the retaliation game as well.

    At what point would the *whole* world unanimously support wiping Iran off the map?

    All of the nuclear powers would support it as soon as Iran did something that had a credible appearance of being a nuclear attack directed at any of them or their close allies, because the firm principle that such attacks cannot be tolerated is the basis on which their own deterrence efforts work. No one is going to even going to get upset about the retaliating countries not waiting until the attack lands to retaliate, because no one wants to establish that standard as a norm.

    At what point would the *whole* world unanimously support wiping Iran off the map?

    All you need is an excuse that makes one nuclear power actively support wiping Iran off the map, and makes the rest of the nuclear powers unwilling to intervene in defense of Iran. Iran nuking anybody, anywhere, would be enough to do that.

  54. Islamic freedoms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Islam too has that freedom. As per the quran, they offer 3 options to all non-Muslims:
    1. Convert to Islam
    2. Don't convert to Islam, but accept 2nd class status under Shariah law
    3. Do neither 1 or 2 but fight us and get killed, unless you are good enough to defeat us instead, in which case, we sign temporary truces which are only valid until such time we are strong enough to slaughter you

    GP (different AC) is right - only reason we tolerate Islam is that most of the world's available oil is found in Muslim countries. The oil that's available elsewhere - Venezuela, Russia, Canada, et al is unfortunately not enough to support the world's energy needs. Unfortunate side effect is that our leaders kiss the butt of the Sauds, the al Thanis, and other sheikhs who run these countries, while Russia & China kiss the butts of Iran.

  55. No Fear by hemo_jr · · Score: 1

    One thing you can say about Teller is that he was not afraid of his own tools.

    I met the guy once - in the late 1970's - and tried to persuade him of the potential of SPS (solar powered satellites). He'd have none of it. But I came away impressed. He was a great man.

  56. Stupid isn't the right word... by DarthVain · · Score: 1

    Insane might be better. Observance to logic isn't a big thing for crazy religious nutjobs.

    One can only hope that their love for power, money, position, and breathing are more important than whatever crazy nutball religious idea is currently passing behind their eyeballs.

    Though I have heard that it is all just a big political act to keep the religious hardliners in the public and positions of power happy and contented, and that action isn't really all that likely.

    Question is how much faith are you willing to put into all of that considering the consequences.

    1. Re:Stupid isn't the right word... by shiftless · · Score: 1

      One can only hope that their love for power, money, position, and breathing are more important than whatever crazy nutball religious idea is currently passing behind their eyeballs.

      Though I have heard that it is all just a big political act to keep the religious hardliners in the public and positions of power happy and contented, and that action isn't really all that likely.

      DUH

      Question is how much faith are you willing to put into all of that considering the consequences.

      Why rely on faith, when you can have knowledge, from personal experience of how humans work?

    2. Re:Stupid isn't the right word... by DarthVain · · Score: 1

      Um, I am pretty sure that might be the definition of insane, when people act counter to what might be the accepted norms of self preservation and interest. Which was the argument I was making.

    3. Re:Stupid isn't the right word... by shiftless · · Score: 1

      And the argument I'm making is that people would be pretty damn stupid to believe that the entire government of Iran, let alone any individual in it, is "insane." No, they're quite sane.

  57. Nobel Prize by stox · · Score: 1

    If there was ever someone who deserved the Nobel Prize, it was Teller. He succeeded to building a weapon too horrible to use. To date, this has been true. In addition, if it were not for the stark realization that we could actually destroy ourselves, I do not think we would have ever taken environmental threats to our survival seriously.
    His autobiography is a fascinating read, http://www.amazon.com/Memoirs-Twentieth-Century-Journey-Science-Politics/dp/0738207780

    --
    "To those who are overly cautious, everything is impossible. "
  58. I met him by WombleGoneBad · · Score: 1

    I met the guy. I wasn't impressed. He gave sort of a general talk on his historic work (atom bombs etc). When a physics undergraduate asked him if he had the choice would he have chosen to become famous for something other than helping to create such terrible weapons, Teller took the (well meant) question very personally, and more or less shouted him down. Right or wrong, I didn't like his apparent absolute certainty that the work on the atomic bomb he did was for all the best. Later in the evening he gave a lecture on his ideas in superconductivity, but after a few questions from folk, it appeared that he did not have the maths/theoretical physics to actually put his fuzzy idea into anything that might be usefull. My impression was that this was a mediocre physicist who only got an audience due to his controversial fame.

  59. Yes by shiftless · · Score: 1

    So by that definition you are admitting you are dumber than G. W. Bush?

    If you think you are smart and capable enough to become President of the United States, then by all means, the world is waiting for you kid.

    Just because Bush makes verbal gaffes and believes some things others believe to be wrong, doesn't mean he's stupid.

    1. Re:Yes by amRadioHed · · Score: 1

      Since when does getting elected as President have anything to do with being smart? Political connections and dumb luck probably account for more then intelligence. Does anyone seriously think GWB would ever have been elected if he wasn't the son of a very well connected ex-President?

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
    2. Re:Yes by shiftless · · Score: 1

      Since when does getting elected as President have anything to do with being smart? Political connections

      You just answered your own question.

      You do know there is a large and significant portion of our brain dedicated to social skills? Obviously these skills (SMARTS) vary from person to person.

    3. Re:Yes by amRadioHed · · Score: 1

      You were talking specifically about GWB. How much social skill did it take for him to be born to an ex-President?

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
  60. Tat by shiftless · · Score: 1

    Fiction referred to books before it referred to movies

    1. Re:Tat by JTsyo · · Score: 1

      But Hollywood is not know for its book publications.

  61. Depleted Uranium Weapons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Meanwhile the US/UK continue to use depleted uranium weapons in every conflict with a half life of 2 billion years. Yes billion with a B. Indiscriminately killing combatants, civilians, animals, men, women & children for as long as the wind blows the dust around to be inhaled. Oh but lets all fixate on Iran because they may at some point have a blasting cap compared to Israel. What a joke.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-VkpR-wka8

    Talk by Dr. Doug Rokke, former head of the Pentagon's Depleted Uranium Project speaking about depleted uranium. The Pentagon is completely ignoring all his protocols for handling and they are not bothering to clean it up.