Slashdot Mirror


Possible New Human Species Discovered In China

BayaWeaver writes "These are exciting times in anthropology. Recent analysis of fossils first discovered in China in 1979 indicate that a human-like species may have co-existed with modern humans as late as 11,500 years ago. This presumably new species has been nicknamed Red Deer Cave people because of their apparent taste for the extinct giant red deer. Other species recently discovered include: the 'hobbits' on the Indonesian island of Flores which are also thought to have been around until 12,000 years ago and the Denisovans discovered in 2010 that co-existed with modern humans in Siberia about 30,000 years ago."

53 of 234 comments (clear)

  1. Fascinating! by SultanCemil · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I, for one, think this is absolutely fascinating! The thought that, as recently as 10k years ago, there were other species of human is amazing - that's not far off of written history!

    I wonder if we could think about cloning these people - is the DNA "fresh" enough?

    --
    Cemil.
    1. Re:Fascinating! by cpu6502 · · Score: 2

      Why does written history only go back 10,000 years? Our ice age ancestors were smart enough to write - did the literature get lost over time? (Like greek and roman music was lost.)

       

      --
      My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
    2. Re:Fascinating! by Sponge+Bath · · Score: 5, Funny

      ...as recently as 10k years ago

      4000 years before God created Earth? You can't fool me with your elitist education.

    3. Re:Fascinating! by Spy+Handler · · Score: 3, Insightful

      written history only goes back to about 5000 years, I think ancient Sumerians (Iraqis) writing cuneiform on clay tablets.

      To paraphrase a nerd, if the cro-magnons who left cave paintings 30,000 years ago in France could've written something, they would've written something.

    4. Re:Fascinating! by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Informative

      Hunter-gatherer groups do not have the population size, nor could they sustain the population size necessary to create sufficient specialization for something like scribes or a literate class. Writing had to wait until you had high enough populations and an economic system that could free some group from basic activities like food collection. In other words, you need an urban culture, and even with an urban culture it took a considerable length of time to develop writing. It wasn't an issue of intelligence, it was all down to economics.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    5. Re:Fascinating! by modmans2ndcoming · · Score: 2

      I am sure the future humans will see us as a bunch of moronic neanderthals that had no culture because we have no long lasting and readable way to record our story.

    6. Re:Fascinating! by modmans2ndcoming · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And one of necessity....In a tribe, you can gather everyone together and talk to communicate to the population....in a city of thousands, you need something else. Sure town criers work but what bureaucracy needs a record to be maintained beyond what someone recollects a few months later....Who said a bureaucrat was worthless? I am it was a bureaucrat that invented writing in the first place.

    7. Re:Fascinating! by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Informative

      Some of the earliest examples of proto-writing in Sumeria appear to be tax records. It is both economies of scale and raw economic need of a large, complex state that drove the need for accurate record keeping. So you're right, it was bureaucrats that likely invented writing.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    8. Re:Fascinating! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Actually, he's allowed to fool you at least once. A wise man once said "Fool me once, shame on, shame on you. Fool me -- you can't get fooled again."

    9. Re:Fascinating! by tmosley · · Score: 4, Insightful

      30000 years from now, no paper or electronic writing produced by the current generation will exist. Just what little we have carved into stone.

      Hard to say what a people were capable of when we know so very, very little about them.

    10. Re:Fascinating! by PapayaSF · · Score: 4, Informative

      So you're right, it was bureaucrats that likely invented writing.

      And yet it was Phoenician traders and merchants who spread a simple phonemic alphabet around the Mediterranean. Such an alphabet was easy to learn and could be used to transcribe many (all?) spoken languages. So thank business for that advance.

      --
      Q: What does the "B." in Benoit B. Mandelbrot stand for? A: Benoit B. Mandelbrot
    11. Re:Fascinating! by buchner.johannes · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Cloning? To what end? Why did they die out in the first place? Ultimately, if they're genetically compatible do you really want to reintroduce their genetic lineage back into the modern human race? Relationships happen. That might be a step backwards for us even if the impact is negligible. Then you start talking about preemptive sterilization.

      I can think of at least half dozen ethical issues so far. It's a can of worms I really don't think we should be opening. Just my 2 cents.

      What kind of speciest talk is that? There is no direction and no step forwards or backwards in evolution. It is not directed, only adaptive. A concept of destiny is superstition. I don't mind mammoths being cloned, so what's the line?

      You're right, of course. The ethical questions are staggering. I guess the geek side of me went "cool, I want to talk to these guys". Wouldn't it be cool to see if they were really like us? Haven't you always wondered if Neanderthals would see you as a fellow (albeit weird) "person"?

      Neanderthals wouldn't stand out if you dressed them like us and educated them like our kids. The difference to them is smaller than the variety within homo sampiens. In fact, it hasn't been ruled out that there was mixing between Neanderthals and humans, so we might be all Neanderthals too.

      --
      NB: The message above might reflect my opinion right now, but not necessarily tomorrow or next year.
    12. Re:Fascinating! by Empiric · · Score: 2, Interesting

      For those understanding the meaning of "allegory" (or who avoid pretending they don't to repeat a joke that was old for Slashdot 10 years ago), and/or very basic standard Judeo-Christian symbolism I'll just leave this here...

      Jesus said, "A grapevine has been planted outside of the Father, but being unsound, it will be pulled up by its roots and destroyed."

      --Gospel of Thomas, Saying 40

      Slashdot's own Mr. Extracanonical, checking in.

      --
      ~ Whence do you come, slayer of men, or where are you going, conqueror of space?
    13. Re:Fascinating! by Fluffeh · · Score: 2

      I guess the geek side of me went "cool, I want to talk to these guys".

      The geek side of me thinks that if you truly are a geek, chances are that these folks would give you a wedgie, take your lunch money and play "Why did you smack yourself?" with you.

      Haven't you always wondered if Neanderthals would see you as a fellow (albeit weird) "person"?

      Two things come to mind, one serious and one funny. Firstly, if you want to meet a Neanderthal, start following Rugby and try to chat to this french player heh. Secondly, if you do a google search for sub-human, you will find a multitude of articles (especially around WW2) where one bunch thought another bunch was sub-human. You even end up with folks like "Shiro Ishii. We already see enough differences between us and we are the same species to do horrid things to one another. I would hate to see what we would do if we had a scientific basis for actually being different. (I use we here as a general humanity, not individuals.)

      --
      Moved to http://soylentnews.org/. You are invited to join us too!
    14. Re:Fascinating! by jd · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Possibly they did. By many of the paintings, there are symbols etched/painted. These are generally ignored, but it is entirely possible that this was proto-writing and new research is going into studying them.

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/mar/11/cave-painting-symbols-language-evolution

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    15. Re:Fascinating! by Michael+Woodhams · · Score: 3, Informative

      Can we sequence DNA from them? Probably, but not certainly. Ancient DNA is a very tricky business. The preservation of DNA depends a lot on the conditions they've been in since death. Cold and dry is ideal. I know we've sequenced DNA over 30,000 years old, I'm not sure what the record is.

      Ancient human DNA is even trickier. If you're dealing with ancient bison DNA, you can largely avoid contamination problems by keeping the remains away from any modern bison. Keeping your human remains (and DNA samples extracted from them) away from modern humans isn't so easy. In this case, the cat is already out of the bag - the samples have been exposed to modern human DNA for decades. All is not lost, but it makes the job harder, and the outcome more open to doubt.

      Can we clone them? Absolutely not with current technology. We can't clone a cow from a fresh steak, yet alone 10,000 year old bones. It is conceivable that future technology would allow it. I don't think you'll ever get it past an ethics committee though.

      --
      Quattuor res in hoc mundo sanctae sunt: libri, liberi, libertas et liberalitas.
    16. Re:Fascinating! by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The alphabet was certainly the next big innovation, phonetic, easier to learn, could be applied to different languages without all the awkwardness one found in applying Sumerian systems to unrelated languages like Akkadian. In the history of writing it was the next big thing up until the printing press. Still, you have to give the earliest inventors of writing the credit, it still stands in my mind as the greatest single achievement of the human mind, from it springing pretty much everything we see today.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    17. Re:Fascinating! by modmans2ndcoming · · Score: 2

      Thank government for the foundational breakthrough that business could not do....

      Thank government for developing a system that allowed business to even exist!

    18. Re:Fascinating! by dryeo · · Score: 2

      The hunter gatherers that lived around where I now live worked for 2 weeks out of the year. The ones a bit further away in a crappier situation had to work an hour or 2 a day. And they were all fairly stable.
      Lots of hunter gathers lived in very rich areas where food was laying about for the picking or showed up in a predictable manner.
      The locals also had a few people per settlement whose job (for lack of a better word) was remembering everything. What they lacked was a government and much in the way of business.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    19. Re:Fascinating! by pipelayerification · · Score: 2

      If you think government is the reason business exists you are sadly misinformed. Far more likely is government existing for the sake of business. Government doesn't develop any systems. They simply regulate existing systems at the supposed will of the people.

    20. Re:Fascinating! by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Ultimately, if they're genetically compatible do you really want to reintroduce their genetic lineage back into the modern human race? Relationships happen. That might be a step backwards for us even if the impact is negligible

      Backwards? That assumes that there is a forwards to evolution.

      --
      Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
    21. Re:Fascinating! by MightyMartian · · Score: 2

      The earliest symbols that might be related to writing are the symbols on tortoise shells in China, which were likely used for divination, so if that's the case, it's magicians.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    22. Re:Fascinating! by Trogre · · Score: 4, Funny

      Maybe not, but it will still be under copyright.

      --
      "Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
    23. Re:Fascinating! by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 2

      Writing always comes after agriculture. People who don't farm don't have a need to write.

    24. Re:Fascinating! by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 2

      Given that still extant hunter gatherer societies do not have systems of writing, and known systems of writing all post-date agriculture, and arise only in agricultural societies it is probably safe to generalize and say they couldn't write. Probably because, like the remaining extant hunter gatherers in the Amazon or parts of Africa, they had no use for it. Societies were small, their knowledge base was small, and oral transmission was good enough. Why bother creating and then teaching an entirely new system of communication that offers no benefit in societies of 50 people?

    25. Re:Fascinating! by cgaertner · · Score: 2

      There is a direction: we are alive and they are not.

      Big deal: I'm alive, while my grandparents are not. In fact, as I'm European I'm probably partly Neanderthal, so the analogy actually works...

      Unless they were wiped out by a freak event, it means we're genetically "better".

      It does not. For example, not having to synthesize vitamin C might have been slightly advantageous in the past, but all those sailors having died from scurvy would probably disagree...

    26. Re:Fascinating! by tehcyder · · Score: 2

      Writing always comes after agriculture. People who don't farm don't have a need to write.

      Well, I can write and I'm not a farmer, so where does that leave your argument, eh? Nowhere, that's where.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    27. Re:Fascinating! by mcgrew · · Score: 2

      Unless they were wiped out by a freak event, it means we're genetically "better".

      Only "better" in the sense that humans fit their environment better than these creatures did when they died out. The only "better" in evolution is "a better fit to the environment." It doesn't mean that any one species is better than another, just that one has an easier time staying alive and breeding.

    28. Re:Fascinating! by airdweller · · Score: 2

      Your ability to string together smart words is impressive. I think I found the missing link between your chair and the computer.

  2. Ok, how many more are there? by mfarah · · Score: 4, Informative

    Besides Homo Sapiens, there are Neanderthals, Floresians (I ain't calling them "hobbits"), Denisovans and now these?

    Pre-history is getting crowded with failed competitors. Yay us?

    --
    "Trust me - I know what I'm doing."
    - Sledge Hammer
    1. Re:Ok, how many more are there? by Anne_Nonymous · · Score: 5, Funny

      >> Homo Sapiens, ...Neanderthals, Floresians..., Denisovans

      Also the Orange People of New Jersey.

    2. Re:Ok, how many more are there? by erroneus · · Score: 2

      You know, the aboriginals look pretty different in many ways. Their bodies look pretty much "normal human" though. I guess it comes down to how much difference do you need before you call them "another kind of human."

    3. Re:Ok, how many more are there? by reboot246 · · Score: 2

      Don't forget lawyers!

      Well, they're almost human . . .

    4. Re:Ok, how many more are there? by erroneus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's crap though. We know we have interbred with neanderthals... well, the people who left Africa did anyway. Unfortunately there aren't any really strong divisions because life in all of its forms and continuous evolutions doesn't easily fit within any given definition.

    5. Re:Ok, how many more are there? by grouchomarxist · · Score: 2
    6. Re:Ok, how many more are there? by Michael+Woodhams · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The question "are these sufficiently different to be two species" is inherently a fuzzy one. We tend to be a bit more picky when dealing with our near relatives, so we might call these a different species when for two squirrel groups with a similar level of difference we might call them subspecies. I've seen it argued that an objective taxonomist would put humans, chimps and gorillas all in the same genus, we've classified this lineage into four - gorilla, pan, homo and (extinct) austalopithecus.

      --
      Quattuor res in hoc mundo sanctae sunt: libri, liberi, libertas et liberalitas.
    7. Re:Ok, how many more are there? by uncanny · · Score: 2

      I think they are closer to the bacterium family

  3. Re:End of ice age by mfarah · · Score: 2

    Perhaps they were Yetis?

    --
    "Trust me - I know what I'm doing."
    - Sledge Hammer
  4. "Possible New Human Species Discovered in China" by Tyrannosaur · · Score: 3, Funny

    And I thought we got over scientific racism a long time ago...

  5. Misleading title by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Based on the title, I thought that mankind has just made another evolutionary leap! But no, it's actually an old human species, not a new one.

    --
    Ezekiel 23:20
  6. Re:missing link by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The missing link was found. And the two new missing links on either side of that, and the new "missing links".

    Please, if serious you need to accept that it has become so well studied of a field that scientists actually estimated based on previous research where a "crock-o-duck" should have existed, went there and found the bloody fossils. Same for whales. Your argument has devolved, pun intended, from something that could be respected to practically a parody of Xeno arguing that a runner could never catch a turtle.

    If a troll, I may be feeding you, but feeding you is far worse than feeding people who actually use such arguments. Please, just stop.

  7. Home cooked! by oyenamit · · Score: 2

    Named the Red Deer Cave people, after their apparent penchant for home-cooked venison...

    Of course, we know that rest of the human species at the time preferred takeout...

  8. Re:missing link by jamstar7 · · Score: 4, Funny

    The link between /. commenters and intelligent human beings?

    --
    Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
  9. Re:And they were seen at FoxConn factory by tverbeek · · Score: 2

    To be fair, that headline was practically begging for someone to interpret it as a reference to current humans, not to a population of hominids that lived in the area we call China thousands of years ago.

    --
    http://alternatives.rzero.com/
  10. Why not study the modern, living pygmies instead? by ace37 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    We have Pygmies today across Africa. They've endured a lot of human rights issues over the years, and theories are out suggesting Iodine deficiencies are related to their short stature.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmies

    Why do we see papers about recent human evolutionary theory only when it pertains to extinct peoples? Are the currently living pygmies less studied simply because anthropologists aren't interested in living people, and nobody else is into these fields of science?

  11. There are probably living human subspecies today by voss · · Score: 2

    We just don't recognize them because their bones are buried or cremated and we generally dont go digging up graves.

  12. RE:intelligent human beings by Forty+Two+Tenfold · · Score: 2

    Huh? I thought they actually found NEW (as in living, just formed) human species...

    --
    Upward mobility is a slippery slope - the higher you climb the more you show your ass.
  13. Re:missing link by jd · · Score: 3, Funny

    Then you need a better filesystem integrity checker.

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  14. Score one for open-access publishing by damn_registrars · · Score: 4, Informative

    The journal article that is being linked to is open-access. There is no paywall, regardless of where you are accessing it from. You can download it and print as many copies as you want, you can even download it and repost it in its entirety on your own website if you feel like it. You can do the same with every article in the PLoS journals as well.

    --
    Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
  15. Re:Christian apologists' response by Black+Parrot · · Score: 2, Funny

    but...but...but.. the world is only 6,000 years old and man was created in his current image by god! There must be some other explanation!

    That's why they're a different species: made in someone else's image.

    And survived right up 'til 5500 years before creation, too!

    --
    Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
  16. Re:Insensitive Barbarians by karzan · · Score: 2

    No, no, how can they have been telling us for thousands of years? Every Chinese person knows China has 5000 years of history, while the West has approximately 5 years of history. There were some reported sightings of Westerners once in the Ming dynasty, but this has since been discovered to have been a hoax, constructed from a bearded monkey on stilts.

  17. Re:missing link by Internetuser1248 · · Score: 2

    While you are right that his comment is idiotic, it is not because missing links were found, it is because modern biology does not consider it necessary for any link to even exist and they are therefore not missing. Google 'punctuated equilibrium' for details. Of course the term missing link was devised by naysayers to evolution before most prehuman ancestors were categorised so it is not entirely incorrect to say the missing links were found.

  18. Re:intelligent human beings by doston · · Score: 2

    If they were found alive, they'd just put them to work at Foxconn making iPads. The only reason Yeti has been left alone is its hands are too big to handle the little instruments.