Parlez-vous Python?

Lies! by girlintraining · 2012-03-28 06:52 · Score: 5, Insightful

. 'To be successful in the modern world, regardless of your occupation, requires a fluency in computers,'

I believe I speak for every computer geek on the planet when I say "Ah! He's full of sh*t!" We've all done tech support. We've all been asked to fix the computer of our friend or family member. And we are STILL endlessly mystified as to how people can be so damn clueless. No. Being successful in the modern world doesn't depend on fluency in computers... it still depends on the same things that humanity has also (perhaps erroneously) placed value on: Who you know, how attractive you are, your personality, and in semi-rare cases, how good you are at what you do.

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#fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie

Re:Lies! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 07:05 · Score: 5, Insightful

yes but don't forget, she says she has taken a wordpress class and "can understand the basic code of the internet" or somesuch. problem really seems to be that the masses out there seem to truly believe that swiping colourful icons around on a touchscreen is the same as understanding how computers work. they are literally so dumb that they don't even know what smart looks like.
Re:Lies! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 07:10 · Score: 1

I believe I speak for every computer geek on the planet when I say
You don't speak for me, because I think you are basically grandstanding and changing the subject. The assertion from the article that success requires computer skills doesn't rule out success also requiring other things. Get more training, especially in reading comprehension and rational analysis.
Re:Lies! by Pewpdaddy · 2012-03-28 07:11 · Score: 1

"Ah! He's full of sh*t!"
I'm hoping this was in the tone of George Carlin's stand up on this matter! I have to second this! Far too often when I "help" friends and family, it's because they can't follow the bloody prompts. Or be bothered to read the forms as they come across their screen. What's that you didn't want to install Fango Bango along with your "freeware"? Or heaven for bid they be sure that 1.) the machine is plugged in, or 2.) that the outlet it's in isn't also tied to a wall switch. Even at work it's very rare I have to think at all, simply due to how clueless my users are.
Re:Lies! by Qzukk · 2012-03-28 07:33 · Score: 1

Far too often when I "help" friends and family, it's because they can't follow the bloody prompts. Or be bothered to read the forms as they come across their screen.
Obligatory: http://xkcd.com/627/

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If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
Re:Lies! by icebraining · 2012-03-28 07:35 · Score: 2

But it doesn't require computer skills.

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Dilbert RSS feed
Re:Lies! by bemymonkey · 2012-03-28 07:38 · Score: 3, Informative

You seem to be forgetting that "fluency" on computers, in a modern work environment, pretty much means being able to remember your work PC's password and use a browser and MS Office.
Re:Lies! by CanHasDIY · 2012-03-28 07:38 · Score: 1

I believe I speak for every computer geek on the planet when I say
The assertion from the article that success requires computer skills doesn't rule out success also requiring other things.
So you think Warren Buffet fixes his own computers?

Does Mitt Romney code his own webpage?

Methinks your interpretation of "success" differs from the social norm...

--
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Re:Lies! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 07:38 · Score: 0

I'm sorry I forgot about the Slashdot grammar Nazis. This is a stupid comment about syntax irrespective of semantics; it's not even correct, since there is obviously punctuation present, and the ultimate irony is your point is a sentence fragment.
Re:Lies! by iceaxe · 2012-03-28 07:57 · Score: 1

Now if they could just learn to read and follow a flow chart...

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WALSTIB!
Re:Lies! by ThorGod · 2012-03-28 08:06 · Score: 1

The assertion from the article that success requires computer skills doesn't rule out success also requiring other things.

That's a very good point. Necessary conditions are different from sufficient conditions. It's necessary to be female to give birth to a live child, but being a female doesn't guarantee birth of a live child.

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PS: I don't reply to ACs.
Re:Lies! by Mongo+T.+Oaf · 2012-03-28 08:10 · Score: 1

That might be a good idea. Instead of having a single window pop up with variable choices, have another one show where you are going in a flowchart. Two windows, one with choices, the other shows the flowchart. Good idea, maybe. It might confuse some people, like 95% of the users. Maybe in the far, far future, they could learn something. I think it might be that way someday, when Captain Kirk is around or even later.
Re:Lies! by iamwahoo2 · 2012-03-28 08:28 · Score: 1

he is exaggerating to emphasize the point. Don't read to much into it. I am sure that he did not mean that there are literally zero people in the world who will be successful without being "fluent" in computers.
Re:Lies! by jez9999 · 2012-03-28 09:05 · Score: 1

At least they know what a smartphone looks like.

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== Jez ==
Do you miss Firefox? Try Pale Moon.
Re:Lies! by Dhalka226 · 2012-03-28 09:15 · Score: 1

You are only correct if none of the computer-ignorant people the OP has come across were ever successful. If they were both ignorant about computers and successful, then success clearly does not require you not to be ignorant about computers.
Quite frankly I think the lot of you should "get more training" in choosing the right words for the situation. We all know success is difficult to define much less factor, so why are we pretending that computer skills or gregariousness or connections or what-have-you are "requirements?" All of those things can be--and have been--circumvented by extremely successful people.
Some things make success more attainable. Computer skills may or may not be in that category at this point in our society. That does not make them required.
In your case, I would highly suggest skipping the snarkiness if your own argument is not going to be perfect in turn.
Re:Lies! by expatriot · 2012-03-28 09:27 · Score: 2

Most people in advanced economies are massively affected by HTML and programming languages. They correctly know that they can acomplish almost all they want from within Facebook or Twitter, but they might want to understand more. It doesn't mean that they will, necessarily, become professional application programmers or web designers.
There is alot space between knows nothing and full-time professional. There is also a range of incomes between the two. Actually some of the jobs that would benefit from some web-design knowledge and the ability to do simple programming pay more than being a full-time developer.
People are free to persue their own interests. I do however welcome the rise of free, but high quality, training and education on the web.
Re:Lies! by doktor-hladnjak · 2012-03-28 09:31 · Score: 2

Sounds like another instance of the Dunning-Kruger Effect.
Re:Lies! by pdabbadabba · 2012-03-28 09:42 · Score: 5, Insightful

Maybe the GP AC should not have been so glib, but he has a point. There are a lot of very smart people (including young people) who have never compiled a kernel, or fired up Eclipse, or who don't even know what HTML is. You just think they are dumb because you have, presumably, structured much of your intellectual life around these concepts, much like other /.ers. They seem obvious to you and you can't see how others could fail to understand.
But imagine how your relatively careless writing (no criticism here, by the way, this is /. after all, so who cares?) would look to someone who writes for a living like, say, a New York Times reporter. To someone like that, who has spent most of their intellectual efforts learning how to write well, you yourself probably would seem "literally so dumb that they don't even know what smart looks like."
At least, that is, if they shared your apparent view that everyone has to know the same sorts of things that you know in order to be any more than an idiot. But we can probably agree that they shouldn't judge anyone's efforts by that standard. And neither should you.

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caritj.org
Re:Lies! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 10:00 · Score: 0

h3y m4n th1s 1s h0w 31337 ppl wr1t3.

This response has traveled to the future from 1999, please ignore it and have a nice day.
Re:Lies! by CanHasDIY · 2012-03-28 10:10 · Score: 1

Not that I disagree with you (quite the opposite actually), but I was merely pointing out that some of the most financially successful people in the world today possess little to no technical background.

To address the content of your post, as a budding hobby-coder myself (always been more of a 'hardware guy' professionally), I too appreciate the increasing amount of quality, free training available online... but what any of that has to do with TFA & AC's assertion that success in life is dependent on possession of computer-related skills, I do not know.

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An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Re:Lies! by TapeCutter · 2012-03-28 10:13 · Score: 3, Insightful

People often misdiagnose ignorance as stupidity because the behaviour of the afflicted is almost identical. As Einstien once quipped to a reporter; "I cannot teach you how to bake a cake if you don't know what milk and flour are."

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And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Re:Lies! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 10:20 · Score: 0

XKCD has the answer to that, too...
http://xkcd.com/518/
Re:Lies! by TapeCutter · 2012-03-28 10:22 · Score: 3, Insightful

It's all relative. Go live in Mongolia for a while and watch the locals laugh their arse off at you trying to milk a Yak. Thing is, no matter what form of ignorance a person is trying to cure, experts are more than willing to help, provided the novice is willing to accept it.

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And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Re:Lies! by pdabbadabba · 2012-03-28 10:36 · Score: 3, Insightful

This is true, and interesting. I do think, though, that a lot of people around here could use to develop more reasonable (not to mention kind) expectations about the state of other peoples' knowledge and its relationship to their intellect. Here's an obvious place to start: the more specialized one's knowledge becomes, the less likely it is that failure to posses it is a good indicator of stupidity. (Of course possession of specialized knowledge probably is a good indication that the person in question is intelligent. This is probably part of the problem.).

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caritj.org
Re:Lies! by nbauman · 2012-03-28 14:33 · Score: 5, Insightful

I'm a non-computer geek but in the 1990s I learned HTML well enough to put up a quick web site, because it was fun and it was useful. I also learned how to put together a few databases and spreadsheets, and automated my word processing programs. I know about as much FORTRAN and BASIC as you would get in an introductory 101 course. I used to read Forrest Mims' notebooks and build digital circuits. I like it. I like flashing lights. I like programming f=1/r^2 fields. I like to open up the case and figure out what the parts do. It helps me understand what's going on in the world around me. So sue me.
I think any intellectually curious person wants to learn a lot of things, just because they're fun. I took my car apart and put it together. I learned the basics of a few foreign languages, a lot of math, chemistry, history, art, filmmaking, poetry, and other things I'll never use professionally. I could place respectably in a contest for the world's worst piano player.
I realize how offended people get when a novice, an amateur, presumes to learn something that they are an expert in. How could they affront your wisdom by suggesting that they are basking in the same sun? However, their target is different. As somebody in TFA mentioned, he learned enough to appreciate what real programmers are doing, so maybe you will get the respect you deserve.
Re:Lies! by nbauman · 2012-03-28 14:51 · Score: 4, Insightful

I think there are a lot of people out there who want to know what's happening behind the screen when they swipe colorful icons around.
There are a lot of people out there who want to get a better idea of how computers work.
It can be done. Learning Python or Java is a reasonable place to start.
I remember a special issue of Scientific American on computers, which had an article that walked you through how a simple, Turing-style computer worked on the logic circuit level -- reading from memory, adding binaries, storing the answer, etc. I spent an hour figuring out the illustration, and I had a pretty good conceptual understanding of how a computer worked. Any reasonably intelligent person who was willing to work at it could have read that article and understood it. A lot of people did. They understood the future a lot better.
Re:Lies! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 15:39 · Score: 0

sure, that's lazy. but how is it dumb? ok, so it was dumb because now he/she has to put up with comments like yours...
Re:Lies! by dudpixel · 2012-03-28 15:43 · Score: 1

I think all of this supports the idea that one can be successful without a knowledge of computers so long as you have someone to do the computer stuff for you.
Ironically, the fact that these people need us in order to be successful, actually allows us to be successful too, so lets not criticize too heavily...

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This seemed like a reasonable sig at the time.
Re:Lies! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 16:38 · Score: 0

You are only correct if none of the computer-ignorant people the OP has come across were ever successful.
You are reading the argument as a universal statement (e.g. "There do not exist any successful, computer ignorant people"), when the properly understood sense is more like "most opportunities for success and self-advancement today entail some kind of computer or technology familiarity". The latter is probably true, and contrary to your assertions, nobody was trying to claim the former, which would just be silly.
Re:Lies! by xelah · 2012-03-28 21:18 · Score: 3, Insightful

One can be successful without a knowledge of many things. However, your opportunities for success (including more middle of the road success, not just top-of-your-profession success) may be narrower. A lawyer with a better understanding of computers than his peers may have more success when it comes to litigating some cases, for example. Or maybe he has an understanding of chemistry, or medicine, or engineering, or anything else that might mean he can read and digest related documents faster, follow arguments better, sift the important from the irrelevant and think of things others might not.
This is not just about being able to 'do the computer stuff', it's also about people who may have commission software, make purchasing, investment or budgeting decisions, understand organizations which produce or heavily use software, write regulations, laws or standards, or do many other things in other specialisms that have some sort of connection with computers.
Learning a few basic coding skills may only be a small part of what may be useful...but a better conceptual understanding and a better understanding of the nature of working with IT/software might not just help them make better decisions, but help them interact in a better and less frustrating way with the IT specialists they employ/work for/work with.
Re:Lies! by tehcyder · 2012-03-28 23:17 · Score: 1

Mindless and ill-founded sense of superiority? You too can post to slashdot and get modded insightful!

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To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Re:Lies! by datavirtue · 2012-03-29 05:21 · Score: 1

It is not about firing up Eclipse or compiling a Kernel. It is about curiosity and having the decency to become aware of the world around you. The problem is that people have no idea how incompetent they are. It only takes someone who is curious enough to learn and become half-way proficient in a basic tool like a computer to show up most of the people in their department. People are scared. The same reason they can't, or will not, learn trig is the same reason they will not become acquainted with the basic functionality of a computer. I'm not talking about them becoming firmware hacking assembler geeks, I'm talking about learning the fucking basics like file management (where is my shit?), setting up an email account, or perhaps not using Excel to conduct word processing.

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I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
Re:Lies! by datavirtue · 2012-03-29 05:28 · Score: 1

Dude, I know enough not to milk a yak. The laughing would really pick up once your wrists got sore. Of course, if I was hungry I could probably become proficient at yak milking. Not really a skill you pick up out of curiosity.

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I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
Re:Lies! by datavirtue · 2012-03-29 05:31 · Score: 2

Yes, a lot of people want to be good at computers, or be a master pianist. Without the work involved to get there of course. People say they want skills all the time. If they really wanted those skills they would work for it. Hell, with computers it's a Google and click away--barely work.

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I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
Re:Lies! by TapeCutter · 2012-03-29 22:25 · Score: 1

Not really a skill you pick up out of curiosity.
It is if you're a Mongolian child, which was sorta my whole point.

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And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.

Python? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 06:53 · Score: 4, Insightful

I love Python as much as the next programmer, but how does this story relate?

Re:Python? by Hentes · 2012-03-28 07:21 · Score: 1

Like this I guess.
Re:Python? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 09:20 · Score: 0

And if you are using Ruby by choice you're a demented masochist.
Re:Python? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 10:11 · Score: 0

Because real web developers use Python not PHP (it's for retards) and not ruby (it's for 'rockstar' douche bag 'developers').
When it comes to sophistication:
PHP < Python < Ruby
If you have a degree in CS and are doing Python by choice you're shortchanging yourself.
Well Mr "Sophisticated", that was a pretty nice way of proving the parent post.
Re:Python? by ceoyoyo · 2012-03-28 10:57 · Score: 1

"If you have a degree in CS and are doing Python by choice you're shortchanging yourself."
If you have a (real) degree in CS and you're doing web development, you're probably shortchanging yourself. If you're not, Ruby and Python are very similar languages (I find Ruby harder to read so I prefer Python) but Python has MUCH better scientifically oriented libraries.
But way to demonstrate the GP's point.
Re:Python? by balbeir · 2012-03-28 11:25 · Score: 1

Cool, an Ad Hominem
Re:Python? by balbeir · 2012-03-28 11:27 · Score: 1

Now, now no need to start calling names, mister Coward
Re:Python? by balbeir · 2012-03-28 11:47 · Score: 1

"If you have a degree in CS and are doing Python by choice you're shortchanging yourself."
If you have a (real) degree in CS and you're doing web development, you're probably shortchanging yourself.
Right, because anyone doing ruby must be doing web development ?

If you're not, Ruby and Python are very similar languages (I find Ruby harder to read so I prefer Python)
Thank you for demonstrating my point

but Python has MUCH better scientifically oriented libraries.
If you care for those. The world is bigger than that. Are you a scientist ?

But way to demonstrate the GP's point.
It's all in the eye of the beholder.
Re:Python? by ceoyoyo · 2012-03-28 14:31 · Score: 1

Ha. I love it. You say that ANYBODY who did a degree in computer science is shortchanging himself by not using Ruby. I say some people are better served using Python while others are probably better off with Ruby and you imply I'M making overly broad generalizations.
And yes, I am a scientist.
Re:Python? by Anonymus · 2012-03-28 21:53 · Score: 1

As someone with a degree in CS doing web development, I agree completely. I got a job doing it during during high school and then shortly after graduating college I moved but went freelance rather than finding a real "CS job", because I already had the contacts and work coming in.
I have been seeing more and more of what the article is talking about, however, and I'm loving it. I no longer feel any guilt about having to bill my hourly rate for intern-level work, because most of the intern-level work (CSS, html, configuring a CMS) is now being handled by the clients themselves. So, instead of spending 80% of my time doing what feels like overpriced demeaning grunt work, I can refocus my energies on creating new interesting things for clients, things that actually flex my brain and make me feel good.
Re:Python? by thetoadwarrior · 2012-03-28 22:49 · Score: 1

Sophistication and PHP do not belong in the same sentence together. PHP is the trailer trash of languages.
Re:Python? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-29 00:14 · Score: 0

Ruby is a trend. Like blink 182.
Re:Python? by tsalaroth · 2012-03-29 01:34 · Score: 1

Uh.. I've used both. I've found Python 3 to be far more useful for web development than Ruby (with or without Rails). Ruby is, for the most part, just another PERL-like language. Hell, it even uses "unless". And I've been web developing since before Python 2.0 - your comment about not having been around long enough is pretty arrogant.
The fact is, Ruby IS good for web development, but saying that it's better than Python is ridiculous. That's like saying PHP is a better version of HTML.
I've found many, many tasks that have been well-suited for Python. I've found one or two that Ruby worked better, and they were generating XML for xlst transforms from an Oracle database. I was honestly surprised it was faster than Python.
I suppose it breaks down to, really, using the best tool for the job. Ruby is alright, but there are far more web frameworks to choose from with Python, which should tell you something.
Re:Python? by datavirtue · 2012-03-29 05:49 · Score: 1

That is freaking hilarious! I love PHP, but damn that is funny. It must be true.

--
I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock

structure not code by dontPanik · 2012-03-28 06:55 · Score: 2

I don't think it's super important to know the lines of code, it's more important to know the structure of how content is distributed on the internet. If people want to expand their information age knowledge, they should look to understand the structure of the internet, protocols and server architecture and such. That's what laymen need in order to keep up.

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"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." - Pablo Picasso

Re:structure not code by chrismcb · 2012-03-28 10:39 · Score: 1

, they should look to understand the structure of the internet, protocols and server architecture and such. That's what laymen need in order to keep up.
Uhhh??? Why?
Car analogy: It is super important to know the structure of the car (how many wheels it has, etc) in order to drive it. NO. You need to know that when you press that pedal the car goes faster. When you press that one it goes slower. When you turn this big round thing the car turns.
Does it mean you can make better content if you know the protocols and server architecture? Not really. The person implementing the design might be able to do a better job if he understands clients and servers and stuff. But the non programmer doesn't need to know that. And certainly not the laymen.
Re:structure not code by Anonymus · 2012-03-28 22:00 · Score: 1

Yeah, but the problem is, most people don't even know (metaphorically) which pedal to push to make the car go faster, or if they do, they have no idea how fast the car is capable of going, how to refill the gas, change a flat tire, or how much any of the above or the car itself should even cost.
Anyone who is serious about advancing in their field should try to learn the basics of modern technology. They don't need to learn protocols or server architecture, but they should learn a bit ABOUT them.

You could learn to do apps just learning at night by crazyjj · 2012-03-28 06:58 · Score: 3, Insightful

You can indeed learn to design mobile apps in just a few hours a night. It will just take a lot of nights. I imagine even a greenhorn could be designing decent apps within a year, just teaching themselves at night. It's really all about self-discipline and motivation there.

--
What political party do you join when you don't like Bible-thumpers *or* hippies?

Rails class in Brooklyn by izzo+nizzo · 2012-03-28 06:59 · Score: 0, Troll

Today is the last day to register for my beginner's Ruby and Rails class at 3rd Ward. It's five Tuesday nights from 7-10 beginning on April 3.

http://www.3rdward.com/3rdwardclasses/ruby-on-rails.html

It's very aggressively priced, at $295 for 15 instruction hours.

The focus of the class is on practical techniques for getting started with Rails and making the best use of your time and the newest, best tools. No computing experience is necessary. The instruction will focus on OSX, but a certain level of support for other OSes is available.

Re:Rails class in Brooklyn by MetalliQaZ · 2012-03-28 07:06 · Score: 1

Modded Slashvertisement :)

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"Here Lies Philip J. Fry, named for his uncle, to carry on his spirit"

Python != web by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 06:59 · Score: 0, Troll

At least not with the damned indenting rules.

Remember friends don't let beginner programmer pull their hair our on the braindead trainwreck of Python.
By they time they work out what bits don't work between Python 2 and 3, they finally move onto Perl or Ruby and realise how much better it could have been.

Re:Python != web by defcon-11 · 2012-03-28 07:27 · Score: 2

I love Python , so I'm going to give you some reasons to try it out. Once I got used to whitespace based blocks, I came to prefer it over braces. It's less typing, and if you ever have to deal with spaghetti code, mistakes are easier to spot, because the code is forced to be formatted correctly. The great things about python for both beginners and experts are that It's a true oo language, and it's very consistent. It uses prototype inheritance, is namespaced, and modules, classes, and functions are all first class objects. Operators are just syntactic sugar for method calls. All errors are expressed as exceptions. Datatypes have consistent interfaces: for example strings and lists shared the same interface because they're both sequences, and files and sockets share the same interface because they're both 'file like objects'. Unicode is a breeze. There are tons of libraries, and most are very high quality. Extending with C or C++ is easy.
Re:Python != web by Dog-Cow · 2012-03-28 07:56 · Score: 1

All errors are expressed as exceptions.
Thank you. Now I have two reasons never to touch Python.
Re:Python != web by Yetihehe · 2012-03-28 08:22 · Score: 1

and if you ever have to deal with spaghetti code, mistakes are easier to spot, because the code is forced to be formatted correctly.
Unless someone switched from tabs to series of spaces halfway through coding... Seen that in my first big project in python which I had to extend.

--
Extreme Programming - Redundant Array of Inexpensive Developers
Re:Python != web by boxxertrumps · 2012-03-28 08:43 · Score: 1

Why is that a bad thing? Also, he's incorrect, as there are two types of errors, syntax errors and exceptions.
Re:Python != web by vgerclover · 2012-03-28 11:06 · Score: 1

Which a linter would have thrown a fit about immediately. if you have a large enough codebase, any class of error that is syntactically legal probably exists there. In a large project, code quality is every bit as statistical as physical material properties – flaws exist all over the place, you can only hope to minimize the impact they have on your users." Depending on the quality of the coders, this will be higher or lower. This is regardless of language.
Re:Python != web by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 14:15 · Score: 0

Whoopee. That's what the python "-t" option is for.

what bothered me about that article by circletimessquare · 2012-03-28 07:00 · Score: 5, Insightful

were the replies underneath. the holier-than-thou pronouncements of arrogant assholes decrying the proliferation of code monkeys

hey, assholes: when someone tries to better themselves, and takes an interest in what you do, smile, and encourage them, or shut up. your ego needs a serious deflation when you adapt such an ivory tower attitude to people just earnestly interested in what you do. don't mock their enthusiasm, most of them might not amount to much real skill growth, but some will

i think more coders is a GOOD thing. a planet of coders: what we could do!

--
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it

Re:what bothered me about that article by dkleinsc · 2012-03-28 07:03 · Score: 3, Interesting

i think more coders is a GOOD thing. a planet of coders: what we could do!
If I were acting as a rational self-interested economic actor, though, the last thing I'd want is more competition, because that reduces the value of my skillset.

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I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
Re:what bothered me about that article by girlintraining · 2012-03-28 07:06 · Score: 1

i think more coders is a GOOD thing. a planet of coders: what we could do!
I think most people would prefer more good coders. A lot of people who program suck at it, or just don't understand it at the level they need to because they've gone to school and had their head filled with computer science classes and not much real world. To be a good coder you need to be good at things besides programming.
It has nothing to do with ego, and a lot to do with the fact that the best programmers are often busy fixing the mistakes of other, less-capable programmers. Believe me, when you wait 6 months for someone to design a database for you that tracks your software deployments and when it finally arrives it has a 64k record limit, you're going to be in a very unpleasant mood. A lot of programmers simply can't look ahead and see the big picture -- how their software is going to interact with the larger ecosystem/infrastructure is it being placed into.

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#fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
Re:what bothered me about that article by mikael_j · 2012-03-28 07:08 · Score: 4, Insightful

I haven't read the comments but in my experience random folks learning just enough HTML and PHP to be dangerous is not a good thing.
It's a great example of the Dunning-Kruger effect, they know a little and are ignorant of what they don't know. Then real developers have to come in and clean up their mess (which is often more work than just building it from scratch).

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Greylisting is to SMTP as NAT is to IPv4
Re:what bothered me about that article by crazyjj · 2012-03-28 07:14 · Score: 2

A lot of people who program suck at it
Yep. And every one of them ends up on my team at some point.

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What political party do you join when you don't like Bible-thumpers *or* hippies?
Re:what bothered me about that article by vlm · 2012-03-28 07:16 · Score: 4, Insightful

i think more coders is a GOOD thing. a planet of coders: what we could do!
If I were acting as a rational self-interested economic actor, though, the last thing I'd want is more competition, because that reduces the value of my skillset.
Yet another example of confusing training and education. I took a civil war history class at college (mumble) decades ago and it was an education because it gave me a lot to think about, practice at thinking, practice at reasoning... No-one, not myself or anyone else, is under the illusion that it gave me the training necessary to be a trained history professor, or that I'm impacting the technical achievement levels of the history prof job market.
As training, a middle aged investment manager taking intro web classes is probably completely useless. As education, its priceless.
Often training and education seem overlapping, but the older I get, the further apart I see them. I'm not entirely certain we even have a "education" system, it just seems to accidentally happen sometimes, to some people.

--
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
Re:what bothered me about that article by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 07:20 · Score: 0

>
i think more coders is a GOOD thing. a planet of coders: what we could do!
We could ALL be outsourced to India together! Oh Joy! Supply and demand, baby.
Won't happen though. Life isn't a fucking fairytale. Oh the hypocrisy of calling others' statements "the holier-than-thou pronouncements of arrogant assholes decrying the proliferation of code monkeys" while making your own. Shithead!
Re:what bothered me about that article by fahrbot-bot · 2012-03-28 07:22 · Score: 2, Insightful

i think more coders is a GOOD thing. a planet of coders: what we could do!
Over my 25+ years as a system programmer/admin on just about every Unix (and, sigh, Windows) platform known, I've seen, and fixed, a LOT of code of questionable quality and shudder at your thought. I'm sure a "planet of coders" would bring forth some sort of Apocalypse. Hopefully, I'll be dead by then.

--
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
Re:what bothered me about that article by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 07:28 · Score: 0

Then real developers have to come in and clean up their mess (which is often more work than just building it from scratch).
Yeah, but there's good money to be made there ;)
Re:what bothered me about that article by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 07:29 · Score: 0

A planet of coders? What could we do? Burn the rest of the fossil fuels processing infinite loops that leak personal data all over the internet.
I wish the government would keep stupid casual coders off the internet in the same way that they prevent people from building cars made out of exploding pottery.
Re:what bothered me about that article by dkleinsc · 2012-03-28 07:38 · Score: 4, Insightful

Somebody with an educational understanding of my field can masquerade as somebody with the training and experience to do the job. Ergo, he appears to be a competitor to the manager who wants to keep his labor costs down, regardless of what that does to quality. For the obligatory car analogy, a Yugo can kinda sorta do the same job as a Toyota, so somebody who doesn't understand cars could easily confuse the two and thus set their price expectations for the Toyota based on the price of the Yugo.

--
I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
Re:what bothered me about that article by boxxertrumps · 2012-03-28 07:49 · Score: 1

Eh, knowing how to change a tire doesn't mean you never need a mechanic.
Specialists will always be needed no matter how much having some basic skill becomes a given.
Re:what bothered me about that article by vlm · 2012-03-28 07:50 · Score: 1

Yeah but all managers know, or know of, another manager who got in big trouble for bringing in a con artist, so its a heck of a lot safer to hire someone who's done the work before. Hence the intense fixation some places have in hiring people with previous experience in the exact skillset.

--
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
Re:what bothered me about that article by thetoadwarrior · 2012-03-28 07:53 · Score: 1

So long as they're learning to write code properly and we don't get a flood of even more PHP developers.
Re:what bothered me about that article by smooth+wombat · 2012-03-28 07:54 · Score: 1

they know a little and are ignorant of what they don't know.

While not a coder (I know I can't code), I recently said the opposite of what you said in an interview. I told them I know what I know but I also know what I don't know.

I wasn't trying to be snarky. I was being honest about the limits of what I know. That said, since I know what I don't know, I make sure to learn or at least understand what I don't know so my knowledge continues to increase and (hopefully) help me become more desirable.

As to the job, I don't hold out hope for a second interview or a job offer for various reasons (both theirs and mine). At least I got more experience!

--
We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
Re:what bothered me about that article by foobsr · 2012-03-28 08:05 · Score: 1

learning just enough HTML and PHP to be dangerous is not a good thing
"Smattering", at least to my non-natively listening ears, somehow indicates the danger (think along the pictures of 'maluma' and 'takete').
CC.

--
TaijiQuan (Huang, 5 loosenings)
Re:what bothered me about that article by PCM2 · 2012-03-28 08:11 · Score: 1

If I were acting as a rational self-interested economic actor, though, the last thing I'd want is more competition, because that reduces the value of my skillset.
But in practice, competition is generally good for markets, because it encourages the competitors to strive for excellence/innovation, and the best performers can charge more money for their goods/services.
Whenever someone says they'd like to do what I do, I always encourage them. If there's actually so little work out there that I can handle it all by myself, I worry that I'm in an unhealthy/moribund market.
The only catch being, if they honestly want to compete with me, they have to either be at least as good as me, or else charge a lot less. It's called "paying your dues."
On the other hand, if my skillset was so commoditized that anyone could walk in off the street and do the same thing, reducing my own value, then I'd figure it was time to step up my game.

--
Breakfast served all day!
Re:what bothered me about that article by royallthefourth · 2012-03-28 08:11 · Score: 1

Not in my experience. The horrible code being written in the first place means that it was written for someone who wasn't willing to pay enough money to hire someone who actually knew how to do it right.
Re:what bothered me about that article by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 08:13 · Score: 1

If the code monkeys are well trained enough to take your job then YOU should think about getting more training. The reality is, someone who is learning the basics is probably doing so to improve their own skill set so they can be more valuable in their field, not change fields and take your job.
Re:what bothered me about that article by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 08:32 · Score: 1

If taken to the most hyperbolic (hyperolific, hyperboleme? not sure what to use here) extreme, sure. I assume that people hiring coders would be able to tell the difference between myself, who just recently figured out Linux enough to use it, and you who is the almighty God of all things coding. I am learning because I'm interested. It will never be a job. A planet of people learning, FOR THE SAKE OF LEARNING, isn't a bad thing, IMHO.
Re:what bothered me about that article by mvdwege · 2012-03-28 08:52 · Score: 1

That's exactly what the Unix greybeards said when Linux just got started: "Hundreds of amateur coders can never lead to a good thing".
And yet here we are, in 2012, and proprietary Unix is for all practical purposes dead.
Mart

--
"I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
Re:what bothered me about that article by boristdog · 2012-03-28 08:58 · Score: 4, Insightful

True, but my RWOME (real-world old man experience) tells me that only about 10 to 15% of the populace has the ability to really understand basic logic, troubleshooting and decision structures. To us, coding and debugging is easy and natural, to most people it is a bunch of weird magic.
I have many intelligent friends who have taken classes on programming, classes on various aspects of computers, classes on networks, databases, etc. and they just don't "get it." They don't think like we do. Conversely, we don't think like they do. But then a world full of nothing but people like us would drive us all mad. That's the beauty of how we all get along.
And of course, the reason why we can make some good scratch doing easy crap like this.
Re:what bothered me about that article by chrismcb · 2012-03-28 10:44 · Score: 1

when someone tries to better themselves, and takes an interest in what you do, smile, and encourage them,

If someone wants to try to learn how to learn programming, and html and other stuff. Then great, more power to them.
But when someone says you need to do that in order to become a better blogger? Well then we as programmers have failed to do our job. If you want to do cutting edge stuff you need to understand the underlying technology (sort of the definition of cutting edge) But In order to create great content, you should use great tools. And know how to use those tools. You don't need to understand how the tools themselves work.
I'm complaining about the person that says you need to learn about programming to use the web. Not the person who wants to learn programming to learn programming.
Re:what bothered me about that article by fahrbot-bot · 2012-03-28 11:34 · Score: 1

Hundreds - sure; Millions/Billions - not so sure. Also remember that us "greybeards" have contributed (and continue to contribute) a LOT over the years, even to Linux - which owes much to what came before it, like BSD, GNU, MINIX, etc... Anyway, in the case of programmers, more is not often better :-)

--
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
Re:what bothered me about that article by Barbara,+not+Barbie · 2012-03-28 11:49 · Score: 2

It's actually worse that even that. They also lower their expectations as to how much it will cost, because after all, "it's already done, it just needs to be patched".
And that doesn't even get near the cases where they already blew their budget, and now fixing it will not only cost too much, but take too long for it to be justified. So they'll "work on their next version" internally. And that wil be full of bugs and not work so well either.
The truth is that the reason these courses are booming is because people either don't have jobs, or are insecure in their current jobs - same as in every down economy in history - and they still believe that "if worse happens, I can pick up a few bucks making web sites."

--
Let's call it what it is, Anti-Social Media.
Re:what bothered me about that article by santosh.k83 · 2012-03-28 18:31 · Score: 1

Mod this up please.

I call b.s. by AttyBobDobalina · 2012-03-28 07:01 · Score: 2

I know plenty of successful professionals who have trouble figuring out their Blackberry. Computer technical proficiency may be helpful in a number of fields, but "web construction" is hardly the economic cure-all.

Where are these people? by MetalliQaZ · 2012-03-28 07:01 · Score: 5, Insightful

Is there a boom? I've never met these people. The Internet doesn't seem to me to be any different from any other technology. When it is all the rage people are interested, but it then becomes commonplace and is taken for granted. The vast majority of people are content to know precisely zilch about how it works or what's going on inside.

How does an automatic transmission work? How does a television work? Hell, how does lever work? Hardly anybody out there walking around gives a flying fart about understanding those things.

I find it funny that this article is running now, when the "social network" is taking over how we use the Internet. Why would you create your own homepage or blog? You can just sign up for a Facebook or Linked-In, etc. Why would anybody other than professional devs look at code?

--
"Here Lies Philip J. Fry, named for his uncle, to carry on his spirit"

Re:Where are these people? by vlm · 2012-03-28 07:28 · Score: 4, Insightful

I've never met these people.
Try night classes at your local uni or college. Stuffed full of people learning Japanese for the F of it, learning civil war history for the F of it, and according to this article, at least some are learning basic html (and python?) for the F of it. This works for Vo Tech too, I am very handy with the lathe and mill, but I'm the worlds shittiest welder and I'd love to take some vo tech welding classes, not because I wanna get a new job at about 1/3 my current pay spending 40 hrs/wk welding, but because I like playing with fire and melting metal together and generally Fing around with stuff like that.

Hardly anybody out there walking around
Walk around somewhere else. You're not going to find interesting people at the local sports bar, or at the water cooler talking about the latest survivor episode, or walking around the mall. Sry about that. I once had a kind-of relationship with a chick who's idea of a hobby or interest was sun tanning, drinking, and watching tv, glad I ran like hell from that.

--
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
Re:Where are these people? by foobsr · 2012-03-28 08:09 · Score: 1

Why would anybody other than professional devs look at code?
Maybe after having been caught in a marketing trap?
CC.

--
TaijiQuan (Huang, 5 loosenings)
Re:Where are these people? by MetalliQaZ · 2012-03-28 08:45 · Score: 1

You're not going to find interesting people at the local sports bar, or at the water cooler talking about the latest survivor episode, or walking around the mall.
Those are the places where you find the vast majority of people. I'm glad you agree with me.

--
"Here Lies Philip J. Fry, named for his uncle, to carry on his spirit"

Web != Internet by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 07:03 · Score: 0

"The NY Times reports that the market for night classes and online instruction in programming and Web construction is booming, as those jumping on board say they are preparing for a future in which the Internet is the foundation for entertainment, education and nearly everything else. Knowing how the digital pieces fit together will be crucial to ensuring that they are not left in the dark ages. 'Inasmuch as you need to know how to read English, you need to have some understanding of the code that builds the Web' ...

Emphasis added to show their complete failure to understand that the Internet is so much more than the Web.

Waste of time by marcovje · 2012-03-28 07:03 · Score: 4, Insightful

The real waste of time is having to hear sales pitches from people like this that don't realize that the problem isn't in the tooling, but in the problem to solve

Milking the gullible by GreatBunzinni · 2012-03-28 07:08 · Score: 2, Interesting

From the article:

[an investment manager] took several classes, including some in HTML, the basic language of the Web, and WordPress. (...) She paid around $200 and saw it as an investment in her future.

This sort of courses are a form of scam that preys on gullible people, who have heard some news how some guy put up a website that he later sold for millions and now they want a piece of that pie. Yet, the hard truth is that those courses are in themselves useless and a waste of money. Sure, learning something is way better than not learning anything at all. Yet, who exactly believes that those gullible clients, like an investment banker with a course in HTML and WordPress, have all the technical know-how needed to put together a new facebook or twitter? They don't. They can't even put up a hello world app together, because they aren't even taught any programming language. These courses are good enough to put up a site on geocities, complete with an animated GIF informing that the site is "under construction", and to register a blog in WordPress.org. Yet, you think you are learning to program? Sorry to dissapoint you, but you aren't.

--
Slashdot, fix your code or at least hire someone who is competent at it to do it for you.

Re:Milking the gullible by vlm · 2012-03-28 07:37 · Score: 2

a waste of money
There's really no such thing as a waste, there's just good prices and bad prices.
At around a tenth the price, she would be getting a fair deal for what she got. The adjunct prof probably only got $500 or so for teaching the whole semester... Somebody in the educational-industrial complex is skimming a lot of money off in these situations.
I'd trade her an hour of personal hands on computational tutoring for an hour of personal hands on investment and accounting tutoring, but I'm thinking $200 might be a bit inflated for both her and myself (could I get more than $200/hr for some of the craziest stuff I've ever done? Yeah, but the craziest stuff I've ever done is infinitely beyond walking a noob thru signing up for a wordpress blog, and I bet she could say the same thing about giving me tutoring in structuring options purchases...).

--
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
Re:Milking the gullible by zildgulf · 2012-03-28 08:41 · Score: 1

Why do investment managers need to know how to code HTML? With Facebook and LinkedIn why would the average Joe need a web page?
Re:Milking the gullible by c_jonescc · 2012-03-28 09:20 · Score: 1

More importantly, why aren't they taking advantage of the free offerings out there, that actual help one learn to code? Codecademy's Year of Code is an excellent resource, and I believe far more valuable a learning tool for someone looking to develop a skill or a hobby, or just learn for learning's sake, than an expensive class in how to use a WYSIWYG blog editor.

Maybe I'm missing something?

--
Getting diabetes AND salmonella would be a bad weekend.
Re:Milking the gullible by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 10:49 · Score: 0

A hypothesis is that they believe that "learning to make a website" is more than enough to make millions on the internet. After all, Google, Amazon, eBay, Facebook, Myspace and Twitter are all sites. So, if they learn how to make a website then they are in the gravy train.
And if all else fails, they pad their resume with "expertise in website creation and internet connectivity". HR people eat that up.

Lot to learn by Art3x · 2012-03-28 07:09 · Score: 1

From the article:

Seasoned programmers say learning how to adjust the layout of a Web page is one thing, but picking up the skills required to develop a sophisticated online service or mobile application is an entirely different challenge. That is the kind of technical education that cannot be acquired by casual use for a few hours at night and on the weekends, they say.

I have to agree. I've been making web apps full-time for seven years, and I'm still learning. HTML, CSS, JavaScript, PHP, SQL, Apache, Linux, all the different browser quirks. . . . it's a lot to learn.

Coding is the cool thing to do by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 07:12 · Score: 1

While I commend many of these folks for tackling coding, I doubt many will stick with it. Chances are they like the many people I know who simply follow the latest "in" thing. Those books on coding will soon end up in the garage next to:
The golf clubs (everyone wanted to be the next Tiger Woods)
The homebrew kit (Fight the tasteless "macrobrews" sold by big breweries)
The boxes of trading statements (why work when you can sit at home and daytrade?)
X-sports gear (Xtreme s8ing, Xtreme sking, Xtreme chess....)
Tools (Flip houses for fun and profit)
The chihuahua cage (Paris Hilton has a chihuahua. You want to be like Paris Hilton right?)
Exercise equipment (Tai-Bo, Pilates, or whatever is in this week)

In one year, the same people will be blowing their cash on the latest "cool" hobby.

same thing happened in 1990s by peter303 · 2012-03-28 07:13 · Score: 2

When "English majors" were turning into web-designers. I wonder how many survived into the 2000s?

Re:same thing happened in 1990s by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 07:56 · Score: 1

In 1998 I was a paper MCSE with an Accounting degree working as a waiter/bartender, now I'm a Java developer working as a Senior software engineer for a major ecommerce company. The last time I was unemployed was in 1999 when I was laid off by my first IT job at a dot com. Within three months I found a better job (where I transitioned from sys admin to developer), which I left a couple of years ago for my current position. However, I know that my experience isn't typical, I wonder myself how common of a situation it is to be without an IT degree, perhaps I'll start asking that question to the recruiters who call.
Re:same thing happened in 1990s by iceaxe · 2012-03-28 08:20 · Score: 3, Interesting

When "English majors" were turning into web-designers. I wonder how many survived into the 2000s?
At least one.
I spent a lot of nights and weekends learning over the last 19 years. Currently employed as a senior software developer, back on web apps the last couple of years, after a few years doing other sorts of programming. And I don't suck. (If I do say so myself.)
But then, I treated my college education as an education, not as job training. I learned how to think, and I learned how to learn. I received my degree in English the same year NCSA Mosaic was released, and spent the next 5 years learning (on my own) before I turned pro in the web development field.
It's really a matter of being smart and working hard. I can learn anything I want to learn, so long as the information is available.

--
WALSTIB!
Re:same thing happened in 1990s by preaction · 2012-03-28 09:13 · Score: 2

In 2006 I was working part-time at Wal*Mart and not making the rent. I had gone to two semesters of college, and both times had to drop out due to unforeseen circumstances compounded with no safety net (no family or friends to borrow money from, basically). I was given a chance as a Perl developer a few months later, and now make six figures and own my own business.
Of course, I had been fiddling around with Linux, Apache, MySQL, Perl, HTML, and JavaScript since 1999, afraid to take the plunge and turn "something I love" into "something I do for a living." Lesson learned: Turn what you love into a living, despite what anybody says to the contrary.
During the short time I was a hiring manager, I looked for those without degrees and with good, broad technical knowledge. Not only do they underrate themselves salary-wise (which was necessary for we offered little), but they tend to know how to learn, which is the most important thing.
Re:same thing happened in 1990s by andruk · 2012-03-28 19:04 · Score: 1

Thanks for sharing - I'd like to start my own business and I was a little worried about exactly that - turning something I love into something I have to do.
How did you start your own business? Did you have investors? How did you generate your revenue stream in the beginning? Did it require a lot of up-front R&D?
Any advice for somebody who would like to start a company?
Thanks!
Re:same thing happened in 1990s by preaction · 2012-03-29 16:47 · Score: 1

I might have accidentally made it sound like "I make 6 figures from my own business," and for that I apologize. I work full-time as a contractor, and I also work part-time building video games for http://doublecluepon.com/ (my company).
So, short answer is I support myself (and hire contractors for my company) with real jobs until such time as my company can hire me on. We have decided against investors, due to creative/control reasons (few investors want to buy in with no say in what goes on). As of now we have no revenue, just a dream, a good team, half of the code we need, and a lot of pretty art.
Advice: Learn the tax law or go sole proprietorship. Find something you're passionate about. Fail early, fail often, try again. Most people who give you advice are wrong.Make a good product and people will give you money for it. Keep your receipts. The little things count more than the big things. Figure things out for yourself. Programs are meant to serve users. All advice is worth exactly as much as you pay for it. Be prepared to lose sleep. Don't wear uncomfortable shoes. Ce n'est pas une pipe.

HTML by HeckRuler · 2012-03-28 07:19 · Score: 0

says Sarah Henry, 39, an investment manager who took several classes, including some in HTML, the basic language of the Web,

I'm a professional software engineer, and I don't know a 401k from a bond, but I just have to say that is so damn cute. She's learning HTML. ooooOOOOOoooo HyperText Markup Language! It's the BASIC LANGUAGE OF THE INTERNET you know. She can't make a site, but she can understand how the language functions in the Internet.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
Oh. Man. I'm sorry. I know I'm being an ass here. But that's just SO ADORABLE! For some inexplicable reason I feel the need to haze some pre-froshes.
Sigh, oh, I know I know. Everyone has to start somewhere. It's just the widdle bitty baby steps made by other professionals into my field are HILARIOUS!

Re:HTML by boxxertrumps · 2012-03-28 07:58 · Score: 1

For some inexplicable reason I feel the need to haze some pre-froshes.
Delete your System32 folder. Speeds things up immensely.

Here we go again by SilverJets · 2012-03-28 07:19 · Score: 1

Smells like the height of the dot-com bubble when everybody and their brother read an HTML book and called themselves a programmer.

Re:Here we go again by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 07:30 · Score: 0

Another "whatever happened to..." moment...

Oh God, managers who can read code by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 07:19 · Score: 0

Sarah Henry, 39, an investment manager who took several classes, including some in HTML, the basic language of the Web, and WordPress, a blogging service. 'I'm not going to sit here and say that I can crank out a site today, but I can look at basic code and understand it. I understand how these languages function within the Internet.'

That may be, but I'm still not letting you anywhere near my code.

CAPTCHA: afraid

Re:kevin bridges by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 07:20 · Score: 0

Actually, "I can do shite in the kettle?"

weird by Diabolus777 · 2012-03-28 07:25 · Score: 1

I keep reading that the IT field is going to face a shorting of ressources soon, because enlisting rates and numbers keep dwindling in the universities and colleges.

--
We should have been
So much more by now
Too dead inside
To even know the guilt

Re:weird by vlm · 2012-03-28 07:46 · Score: 1

I keep reading that the IT field is going to face a shorting of ressources soon, because enlisting rates and numbers keep dwindling in the universities and colleges.
You only hear that garbage from managers trying to outsource or lower salaries, never from un/under/employed IT workers.
I'm sure my boss would agree there is a staggering shortage of veteran IT personnel with 31 years of general experience in computing, LAN/WAN telecom background, 19 years of linux experience since the SLS days, senior level routing and switching skills, electrical engineering microwave RF skills and experience, BS in CS in the hardcore curriculum track (compilers and shit track, not the "web designer" or "IT" track) who is willing to accept $20K/yr. Apparently he found at least one moron willing to do it for what I'm actually getting paid (that moron being me) but there's a real shortage of people willing to do my job for a tiny little fraction of my wage.

--
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
Re:weird by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 08:20 · Score: 0

go into wielding, you will make more money !
Re:weird by iceaxe · 2012-03-28 08:29 · Score: 1

go into wielding, you will make more money !
Great! Wait, what will I be wielding?

--
WALSTIB!
Re:weird by Diabolus777 · 2012-03-28 13:48 · Score: 1

A welding thingie I'd guess

--
We should have been
So much more by now
Too dead inside
To even know the guilt
Re:weird by Diabolus777 · 2012-03-28 13:50 · Score: 1

Decreasing enrollment stats don't come from managers...

--
We should have been
So much more by now
Too dead inside
To even know the guilt

For the majority... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 07:31 · Score: 0

It is just word and excel. Don't flatter yourself.

I was expecting an article about Python. by boxxertrumps · 2012-03-28 07:53 · Score: 1

How is this about Python again?

Re:I was expecting an article about Python. by codepunk · 2012-03-28 09:08 · Score: 3, Funny

Simply because python is so damn cool it should be in the title of all articles no matter what the content is.

--

Got Code?
Re:I was expecting an article about Python. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 13:16 · Score: 0

Where's the +1 button on this thing?

1999? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 08:07 · Score: 0

Bettering yourself? Learning something new? All good.

Still, this reminds me too much of 1999 (or so), when you kept hearing about people who "went from serving Java to writing Java" ... in 21 days!

There's a risk, as always, that real skills will be devalued. Can't you just hear some HR idiot or non-technical C-level type saying "WTF? Why should we value those skills when they can be learned in 21 days? Offshore it!"

reminds me by codepunk · 2012-03-28 08:11 · Score: 1

Reminds me of a fresh out of college student I interviewed recently.
Me, what do you like to do?
I like web programming in dreamweaver.
Me, like java script, php etc?
I like making web pages with dreamweaver.
Me, do you program?
Sure html and that kind of thing.
Me, what is usually the first tag in a basic html document?
Blank Stare

--

Got Code?

Re:reminds me by iceaxe · 2012-03-28 08:33 · Score: 2

Pssst, the answer is <!DOCTYPE html>.

--
WALSTIB!

nice flame by umghhh · 2012-03-28 08:21 · Score: 1

I am rather surprised that this has not caused a massive abuse of the poor - what was it - investment manager. Apparently /. got older and does not get excited this much these days and the superfluous interest in things roughly associated with internet (what is internet???) are rather welcome. OTOH hand I find this a rather interesting that excell programming (among other such things) is so lowly rated - I know a few that earn a decent living out of programming massive system run as excel macros.

Re:nice flame by iceaxe · 2012-03-28 08:36 · Score: 2

... massive system run as excel macros.
I think I just had an aneurysm.

--
WALSTIB!
Re:nice flame by codepunk · 2012-03-28 08:36 · Score: 2

Excel hatred comes from the poor bastards that have to mop up the mess when a massive system run as excel macros goes to hell.
Excel is a fine tool as long as it is used within it's practical limits.

--

Got Code?
Re:nice flame by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-31 14:40 · Score: 0

Excel is a fine tool as long as it is used within it's (sic) practical limits.
The apostrophe is a fine tool as long the writer isn't an idiot.
And Excel is rubbish. Always.

Turnabout by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 08:24 · Score: 0

I can't wait until the Indians start outsourcing development to the US and get a taste of their own medicine. It will be glorious!

Markup language =/= Programming by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 08:36 · Score: 0

She is not fluent in anything other than spending money. HTML is NOT programming.

Repeat: Markup language is NOT programming

Aha... by krept · 2012-03-28 08:46 · Score: 1

Welcome to 1995.

--
None of us know everything. Therefore we're all naïve.

"Doing Python you're shortchanging yourself" by vgerclover · 2012-03-28 08:52 · Score: 2

Could explain why using Python I'm shortchanging myself? I've used Python to create webapps, ETL pipelines in clusters, desktop applications, image processing applications, large dataset statistic analysis, system administration scripts, small one-off scripts, running MapReduce and even some silly 2d platformer games. Also, I know that it can be used for a fair amount of other things. What have you found that you couldn't do in Python that you could in Ruby, or that is much better in Ruby over Python?

Re:"Doing Python you're shortchanging yourself" by balbeir · 2012-03-28 11:24 · Score: 1

Start taking a look at the extreme elegance of closures and metaprogramming in Python.
Re:"Doing Python you're shortchanging yourself" by shutdown+-p+now · 2012-03-28 11:55 · Score: 3, Insightful

Closures are plenty elegant in Python - just def a nested function, and lo, there's your closure. I suspect you confuse closures with anonymous functions.
Anonymous funcitons, now - Python has a shorthand expression form for them for use with basic stuff like map/filter/fold, but for something larger you need a named function you can pass. In practice, this doesn't affect things nearly as much as a Rubyist would think, because Python has syntactic sugar for pretty much all common cases where Ruby uses multiline closures - namely, iteration, RAII, and callback chaining.
Re:"Doing Python you're shortchanging yourself" by datavirtue · 2012-03-29 05:44 · Score: 1

That is a mighty big hammer you have there.

--
I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock

Computers, programming... BAH! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 09:09 · Score: 0

I wanna know who's gonna fix the damn toilet... Who still knows how to properly fry an egg?

Re:You could learn to do apps just learning at nig by c_jonescc · 2012-03-28 09:26 · Score: 1

I agree. I can't tell who's commenting there in TFS, but I'd say that the claim that one can't self teach development in their spare time is a needlessly snooty and intentionally disenfranchising attitude.

Hobbyist in all sorts of fields develop expert ability. I'd make the argument that computer culture, especially in the case of web dev is one place where this is outstandingly obvious.

--
Getting diabetes AND salmonella would be a bad weekend.

Many fields can benefit from a bit of scripting by leftie · 2012-03-28 09:40 · Score: 2

I think it was Zed Shaw I saw somewhere pointing out it was all the career paths other than programming that could really benefit from a little scripting knowledge. Many small often repeated tasks in every profession that can be automated. Information that is checked regularly that can be put on the desktop with widget.

Many people don't want to learn! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 10:00 · Score: 0

As a journalist, I also have some computer chops, starting with programming in Basic on and Atari in the 80s, and moving on to COBOL, a smattering of C++ (enough to find the flaw in a new content management system when the vendor couldn't), HTML (starting back when BBEdit was a huge step forward), Java, etc.
Yet I continually have conversations like this with other journalists in my office:
Co-worker: "I sure wish I knew how to do that stuff (stuff being anything from using Excel or writing short code to crunch data, editing video, etc."
Me: "I didn't until I learned how. There's a class Saturday at the library that would help you get started. I'll even come with you."
Co-worker: "I don't have any money."
Me: "It's free."
Co-worker: "I can't. My son's got a basketball game Saturday night."
Me: "The class lasts an hour, and it's at 3."
Co-worker: "I really can't."
Me: "They rotate through seven or eight topics -- how about next week?"
Co-worker: "We'll see."

Eight years later...
Co-worker: "I sure wish I knew how to do that stuff."

Meanwhile, he and others around me become almost belligerent with people on the phone when they offer to send the data in Excel. I've heard reporters say "Do I have Excel on my computer? I dunno. How can I tell?" That's got to erode faith in any ability to understand numbers.

Less dogma, more code, please. by rjh · 2012-03-28 10:08 · Score: 5, Insightful

At OSCON 2006 I was delivering a presentation on a new heuristic algorithm. We implemented it in C++ and provided Python bindings for it. An hour before my presentation I was in the green room, head deep in code, getting one last bugfix in before the presentation. As I found a bug and fixed it I said to myself, "Python, I love you. You make the hard stuff so easy."

The green room immediately went quiet. I lifted my head and looked across the table and discovered Damian Conway, of Perl fame, was sitting across from me hacking on his own code. Damian looked up, looked around, and particularly at all the people who were expecting a Python-versus-Perl flamewar to arise. "What?" he asked them. "Listen, the only thing I love more than Perl is software that works well, even if it's not written in Perl." Then he went back to his code, I went back to mine, and the room resumed its normal dull roar.

There's a lot of wisdom in Conway's perspective. If you seriously believe that coding in Ruby makes you a better programmer than a Python or a PHP programmer, then I hate to break the news to you, but you've been sadly miseducated.

Yes, I know Ruby. I prefer Python. So what? My best friend knows both languages and prefers Ruby.

Children get into holy wars about code. Grown-ups are too busy writing code to waste time on such childish diversions.

shrug. WHATevah. by ios+and+web+coder · 2012-03-28 10:29 · Score: 1

I program in PHP (and XSLT, JS, HTML, Python, etc.) on the server, and C++ and Objective-C on the client.

The combo does me good. It's good to be king (of both ends of a client/server relationship).

I'll leave some of the fancier and less mainstream stuff to others (except Java, which is way too mainstream).

I have also taken many classes in UX, usability, software development project management, etc.

WFM.

--

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."

-H. L. Mencken

What does this article have to do with Python? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 10:37 · Score: 0

I saw no relevance in the article at all.

You get my "golfer's clap" by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 11:14 · Score: 0

Well said... absolute 110% agreement here on all you stated.

^ Sometimes, & I think it'd be a hell of a play on the human psyche, especially that of 'geeks/techs' in ANY field of endeavor, that the trollls around here are actually paid to do what they do, to "spur controversy" and get others' gander up... why?

CONTROVERSY IS GOOD FOR FORUMS - gets replies like yours is why, by touching on your sensibilities, and replies means views & thus, "profit"...

(Think about it/Food 4 Thought)

APK

P.S.=> Passion for anything goes a LONG ways, & with focus combined with it? Sky IS the limit... apk

Based on your alleged history then? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 11:19 · Score: 0

I wager you'll actually LIKE this: Have you ever looked @ your own code from "years past" & said "WTF?" (I have, & I've been coding & doing tech + network administration (usual 'growth path' for full understanding with education imo + experience)) since 1982 on mainframes, into midrange work, then into Client-Server designs on all fronts noted... we are, "similar creatuers" I would say...

* That said? Well, consider that others who are working code you may have done, ages ago @ other companies/concerns say the same of YOUR work too... odds are, whatever you're doing today as well? You will look back on years from now & do the same...

Think about it.

APK

P.S.=> I just KNOW you're going to say "YES" & if you don't? Well, then you're a complete first! apk

Inasmuch as we should take linguistic advice... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 12:03 · Score: 0

... from someone in a job that requires excellent communication skills, who flagrantly misuses the word "inasmuch".

Its a career because it's trivial to do, right? by TiggertheMad · 2012-03-28 12:15 · Score: 2

Stupid, smart, its all moot. The day a hospital will hire me to do brain surgery after I take a CPR class, is the day that I will hire an MBA to build me a web site.

--

HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!

Money makes the world go round.... by TiggertheMad · 2012-03-28 12:48 · Score: 1

If you have a (real) degree in CS and you're doing web development, you're probably shortchanging yourself.

Probably true, but if you have a CS degree and you are NOT doing development, you are probably underpaid.

--

HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!

Re:Money makes the world go round.... by ceoyoyo · 2012-03-28 14:32 · Score: 1

There are more important things in life than money.

Not Flamebait by SteveFoerster · 2012-03-28 13:12 · Score: 1

Regardless of whether or not I agree with the post, it was moderator malpractice to call it flamebait.

--
Space game using normal deck of cards: http://BattleCards.org

Re:Not Flamebait by tsalaroth · 2012-03-29 01:40 · Score: 1

fundamentally it is English that is the universal language of the Internet and thus, the world.
Uhm.. Normally, I'd agree with you, but.. how is this NOT flamebait? It may not have been intended as such, but it still IS.
Re:Not Flamebait by SteveFoerster · 2012-03-29 06:19 · Score: 1

Hmm. But if intent doesn't matter, then anything controversial is flamebait, and there's even less point to Internet conversations than there is already.

--
Space game using normal deck of cards: http://BattleCards.org

Hey, Faggot by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-28 18:22 · Score: 0

The word, "however," is used to denote a disagreement, complication, or differing opinion. You can't say that she says she could not make a sophisticated web site, and then say "however; web designers say she couldn't make a sophisticated web site."

Maybe you should try learning your native language, asshole.

Re:You could learn to do apps just learning at nig by tsalaroth · 2012-03-29 01:46 · Score: 1

I've never had any formal education when it comes to computers (excepting classes for specific applications that the company pays us to learn). That said, I've been doing IT for over 18 years. The last 8-9 of it has been in a developer role (admittedly less-so in the past couple of years).

I taught myself (in no particular order) Basic, Lisp, C, C++, HTML(1-5), CSS, ASP (VB and now C#), UML, PERL, Python, Ruby, PHP, Lua, Java, Haskell and am currently learning Go.

Sure, not all of these would be considered programming language, but they're languages nonetheless. I agree with the GP completely, you CAN teach yourself languages. You can even teach yourself design principles and best coding practices.

I used to be "one of those guys" by Anonymous Coward · 2012-03-30 04:58 · Score: 0

It's NOT IMPOSSIBLE to "train-your-mind" (what my brother calls developing your mind in fact) to be able to handle it if not even do well & excel @ it, even IF only eventually.

Athletes do it with their bodies, the mind CAN do the same... no questions asked.

Heck - I AM LIVING PROOF!

Fact is?

I used to be "one of those people"!

I recall going "panic mode" pulling my hair out just about, when I 1st started programming really!

It's when a fellow student named Ron Procopio (he's passed now what a shame, great guy) saved me in fact...

Yes, he literally did, and coached me thru learning my 2nd programming language (to this very day my fav. still) in Turbo Pascal 5.0-6.0 (which helped me later on in Object Pascal/Delphi).

* I couldn't "get it", especially going from straight 'inlined/drop-down" single proc/main routine-driver coding, to procedural coding... then, into usage of external headers/units and objects, etc./et al...

APK

P.S.=> I was LUCKY (again, & I must mention it, God Rest his Soul, that that person's not with us anymore, & was only 1 yr. older than myself, he went to the same highschool I did and his brother was a pal of mine, which is how we got to know one another in college later oddly enough)...

I was lucky, & I met someone willing to HELP "one of those people" you describe (me) & I've done pretty alright @ coding ever since!

(Though I wouldn't say I am a "master of coding & design", I can & HAVE, gotten the job done, many times both professionally on the job & otherwise)... it's doable, if you try hard enough & work @ it (& if you get good help early on)... apk

164 comments