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Independent Audit Finds Foxconn Violates Chinese Work Rules
doston writes "The first independent audit of Apple's supply chain found excessive working hours and health and safety issues at its largest manufacturer, piling more pressure on the technology giant. This investigation targeted Hon Hai Precision Industry which is known as Foxconn. The company says they will try to stop their overtime criminality by July, 2013. Will the public ever sour on Apple devices in light of the constant media attention on supplier working conditions?"
You fucking idiots. Every computer, laptop, and Smartphone you own was either manufactured by Foxconn or has parts manufactured by Foxconn.
What a loaded article. It sounds like Foxconn's working conditions are actually much better than most companies in China, and the violations are relatively rare considering that the company has over HALF A MILLION employees. They are also responding to the problems that do exist much more quickly and transparently than many other companies have done.
Can someone enlighten me as to why they are only willing to try and why this would take more than a year...or any time at all?
Less-geeky computer repair alternative for Lansing, MI
No, because they'd need to sour on all electronics to avoid Foxxcon's (and its ilk's) moral taint.
It's not an Apple problem, it's an industry problem, and Apple does better than most at identifying and correcting these conditions.
Anyone who loves or hates any language, platform, or manufacturer, doesn't know what they're talking about.
Considering Apple is trying and doing a well job at finding problems I will continue to buy Apple products. Better than most other companies that don't only not care but will not even look into what is wrong with their suppliers as long as products keep coming.
Anyone going to apply the same pressure to ALL the other computer/phone companies that use the same facilities? I know Slashdot has a extreme anti-Apple bias, but does it blind you to the obvious? The computer you're using right now has parts that were made by Foxconn.
....if you think the working conditions of other manufacturers are any better.
So the company known for its ability to immediately roused 8,000 workers inside the company's dormitories, ... and within half an hour started a 12-hour shift fitting glass screens into beveled frames. Within 96 hours, the plant was producing over 10,000 iPhones a day is now going to take 487 days (or 1 year, 4 months) to make this change?
What one fool can do, another can. (Ancient Simian Proverb)
China has work rules!?
Most linux users don't know this, but the man pages were named after Chuck Norris. Chuck Norris fsck'ing hates noobs!
How is apple overcharging their customers? They sell their products for a certain price and customers choose to buy it over similar competing products. Apple's gross margin last quarter was 44%, Samsung's was 32%, so yeah, apple charges a larger premium, but if the customer is willing to pay that price Apple can and should charge as much as they want.
I see you don't understand the nuance of the supply chain. The reason that iPhones and so on (and other devices like Xboxes, HP computers, Playstations, Android phones and other things made in that same factory as the iPhone) are not made in the US isn't really a wage issue, it's a worker numbers issue, as well as a logistics problem. All the pieces that make a product are made nearby (or a great many of them are), so moving the assembly to the other side of the world creates huge issues unless there is a very specific reason that makes it economically viable (like in Brazil, where enormous import taxes have made it favourable to build an assembly line inside the country). There are some instances where a component is made in a different place and then shipped (for example, Samsung's Texas facility that is making ARM chips for Apple), but generally minimising the need to ship components around *really* cuts the cost of assembly (far more than the cost of paying hypothetical US factory worker wages, of which there aren't nearly enough to staff an operation of that size anyway).
They use China because it is cost effective to do so - they have a strong manufacturing base, a large and upwardly-mobile workforce (since they are going through their industrial revolution right now), a growing middle class and a solid infrastructure. The claim that they're using China to dodge environmental regulations is laughable - one of the first companies to limit the amount of expanded polystyrene used, the use of low-lead solder, the removal of PVC from cabling and plastics... and all this before Greenpeace "shamed them" into "making changes" (ie, just telling people what they were doing).
Putting Apple in the "Big Evil Corporation" list over something like this is just enormously naive. Globalisation is not going away, nor are Apple the only ones doing it (nor are they the "worst offenders" by an extremely long distance). This doesn't give them a free pass - they need to demand better conditions and so on (and they are doing so), but the world is not the black and white super simple "everyone is either a Jedi or a Sith" Star Wars fantasy.
Will the public ever sour on Apple devices in light of the constant media attention on supplier working conditions?
You mean, kind of like how in the 90s, people stopped buying from a company with a certain swoosh on their shoes?
Oh wait, that didn't happen, and Nike's dividend has grown from $0.03 to $0.30. That, despite having relatively well organized protest groups, including groups at over 40 universities. Protests and media attention aren't going to do much. There is zero financial motivation for Apple to make more than a token, symbolic move to improve working conditions. That is enough to appease the minds of their customers. Anything else they do is bonus.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
I love showing articles like this to those liberals.
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
we live in a world where the west's material goods are supplied by slave labor, figuratively speaking of course, and many times, those jobs are the best ones around. this says a lot about the countries that we get our material goods from.
Mark Anthony Collins
I wonder which company asked FLA to perform an independent audit at Foxconn. That wouldn't be Apple. That couldn't possibly be Apple. Guess what: It was Apple.
Interesting choice of words, "overtime criminality". So people are working 60 hours a week and get paid for overtime. So what are things like in IT in the USA? I hear there are people working 60 hours a week as well, and not getting paid for overtime. In the games industry, there are people working 80 hours. In the medical profession, 80 hours seems to be the average in the USA (at least according to Wikipedia).
Turns out you can have your electronics made elsewhere. China is not the only place. They are the cheapest, but when you start paying for higher quality goods, they can be made in other places, often ones with not only better worker conditions but higher quality controls. For example my receiver is made in Japan. The lower end models are made in China but the high end stuff is made in Japan (it is a Japanese company). My speakers were built in Ohio (with the drivers themselves made in Denmark) or the UK (with UK drivers) depending on which ones you are talking about. My TV is less high end, but it was still built in Mexico.
Well guess what? Apple charges high end prices. Don't try and say they don't, their massive profits, massive amount of money in the bank is evidence they do. They can afford to move their production somewhere else if they want. It would mean less profits though.
I'm not saying they need to, I'm not playing morals here. I'm saying that this bullshit of "Oh they can't do anything!" is just that: bullshit. They charge the kind of prices they can produce their shit elsewhere and have the kind of money that they could set up their own production lines presuming they couldn't find anyone who could meet their needs.
However it would mean trading off some profits.
Sure, I understand the supply chain.... but how did it get like this? It's not like China had all these empty factories already built and all these organizations created and staffed hoping for someone to come along and the US had nothing in place. Cheap labor and relaxed environmental rules attracted the entire manufacturing ecosystem there. If we hadn't dismantled our manufacturing ecosystem by essentially transplanting it to China, we'd have all those capabilities, too. I think there is enough people needing work in the US that Apple could have sacrificed a certain amount of profit to be a better US citizen and establish it's own manufacturing ecosystem here. It would help me decide to purchase their products, leading to.....
I also understand the concept of Demand - I don't like the way they're doing business so I don't buy their products. Sure, almost the entire consumer electronics world uses Foxconn and similar companies but when Apple is literally overflowing with money, I think they could have "Thought different" about what to do with it. I'm using this knowledge by affecting the part of this that I can - the Demand part.
And since I have been modded Troll, I'll add that I didn't say that *I* thought they should be treated as an Evil Corporation (regardless of what I think), I'm curious as to the reasons why the public at large (and the media) isn't. Likely, it's Shiny Trinkets Syndrome.
Queue the angry mobs of workings who actually want to work those incredible hours. They can't get the wages we do but they can certainly work much more than us and are often willing to.
What's mildly amusing about this is that some of those worker complaints we heard about were the worker's demand for more overtime.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
I'm a foreigner in China and I can tell you people here routinely work long hours and live in cramped dorms.
Peasants have always had it rough and conditions for the many who come to cities to find work are generally not much better. A construction site here typically has barracks/dorms for the workers. It is not at all unusual for the companies to cheat or delay on their pay. Here's one story (from a Party newspaper, take with salt) about that: http://english.people.com.cn/90882/7707122.html
I had Chinese girlfriend who worked as a waitress; she thought she had a good job. Come in around 10 am, work until 2, nap or go shopping unitil 4:30, work until about 11. If some customers wanted to stay later, a few waitresses would too. Two days "off" a month, meaning come in at 4:30 instead of in the morning. Sleep in bunk beds in an apartment the boss rented near the restaurant.
There are long queues for Foxconn jobs: http://micgadget.com/21420/thousands-line-up-for-foxconns-jobs-in-zhengzhou/
My phone is made in Taiwan. I don't know who HTC uses, maybe internal, but it is of Taiwanese origin, not Chinese. My computer does have some Chinese parts in it, namely the powersupply and motherboard, however neither are produced by Foxconn. Not saying the companies that made them (CWT and MSI) are any better, but there you go.
The rest of the components are different countries. My CPU was fabbed by Intel in Chandler, Arizona and packaged by Intel in Costa Rica. My RAM was made by Micron (under their Crucial brand) in the US. Not sure where the chips on it came from, they have plants in the US, Europe, Japan, Israel, Malaysia and so on (none in China yet). My SSDs were made by Western Digital in the US, my HDDs by Western Digital in Malaysia.
None of this is because I'm trying to avoid China or anything, just pointing out that a computer is much more international than you might think. Some components you have no choice on country. Any 32nm Intel CPU was fabbed in the US, since that's where they only 32nm fabs are. They can be packaged in a few places though. Any powersupply was made in China, they have the only people who do, like Seasonic and CWT (only a few companies actually make PSUs, the rest just spec them to order). RAM you can get all over.
If you decide Foxconn is a company you don't approve of, you can avoid them, though it'll likely take some doing.
However I think a big problem people have is that Apple charges premium prices but uses cut rate manufacturing. You can't say they don't charge a premium, how do you suppose they maintain those massive profit margins?
Often when you get premium priced goods, you get better manufacturing too. For example I like Denon receivers. Their cheaper stuff is all made in China. Fair enough. However their higher end units are made in Japan. I suspect part of it is to maintain better quality control, and part of it is just because Denon is Japanese and their Japanese market may care about that.
They're basically saying "We know we're committing crimes and we plan to continue to do it until July 2013
There is also the issue of trade tarifs. China has them, we dont. So if a company (say Apple) wants to see in China, it is very expensive to do so if their goods are not made there. On the flip side, it is far cheaper to sell goods in the US that are made in China.
"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
Spin can go a lot of different ways.
From the article:
The FLA found few safety violations, noting that the company had already dealt with problems like blocked fire exits and defective protective gear.
The FLA found that many workers at the Foxconn factories want to work even more overtime, so they can make more money. Foxconn told the FLA that it will raise hourly salaries to compensate workers for the reduced hours.
Heerden said that it's common to find workers in developing countries looking for more overtime, rather than less.
"They're often single, they're young, and there's not much to do, so frankly they'd just rather work and save," he said.
The auditors examined one years' worth of payroll and time records at each factory, conducted interviews with some workers and had 35,000 of them fill out anonymous surveys.
Apple has started tracking the working hours of half a million workers in its supply chain, and said that 89 percent of them worked 60 hours or less in February, even though the company was ramping up production of the new iPad. Workers averaged 48 hours per week.
I had to laugh. I'm sure there are a lot of doctors right here in America who wouldn't mind working only 60 hours a week.
That would be illegal. You can not on-shore such a labor-intensive production line while remaining loyal to your shareholders (which you have to do by law). If Tim Cook and Co. on-shored the production of Apple devices, and spiked costs, they would certainly have legal troubles since the board of directors would have to SUE them for not acting in the best interest of the shareholders.
This situation is the result of two phenomenons: globalization through trade agreements and laws governing the practices of public corporate management (profit seeking by law).
Apple is doing exactly what apple should be doing:
1. Answer pressure from the media about their operations, and make sure their suppliers are also answering pressure to fall back into compliance.
2. Hiring the FLA to make sure their suppliers are in compliance with the local laws and regulations set forth by the governments in those localities.
3. Seeking the lowest cost of operation to fulfill its goals.
If we want to cry out about the treatment of the workers at HHPC:
1. Write to your congressmen regarding the trade agreements that are signed and ask that your country enter into agreements that meet your requirements from a labor standpoint (and be prepared to pay the increase costs of the products that are now sub-optimally built from a cost standpoint).
2. Stop buying the products made in those places (I understand most are not willing to go without the newest HHPC-manufactured good).
3. Ask yourself what happens to 500,000 workers who now lost the job that earned them the ability to eat (hint: look into the economics of Africa and the problems they have).
Its so funny how much these "hipsters" blame corporations and paint them as evil... when in fact they are doing exactly what they should be doing. By law they must seek the most profit within the bounds of other laws.
Recent interviews with workers in Apple manufacturing areas of Foxconn showed the chief complant to be overtime. That is not getting enough! workers on Apple lines do not get overtime but complain that if they worked for nearby competitors they could work all the overtime they want.
The real idiocy is i know plenty of people in the US working hours that would be illegal in China. Some of them working in government, It's also interesting to note that critics have complained that Chinese laws only require them to give 0ne 5 minute break ever 2 hours. You do realize that nowhere in the US are employers required to give any breaks other than meal breaks.
The fact is the Chinese have better labor laws than the US.
Half the households in America own Apple products [citation needed]
It's easy to understand that people like you were not around at the beggining of this century in the US. When people worked 6 10hour days a week for minimal wages. It wasn't modernization that stopped the practice. It was people on the streets demanding it. Unions and a lot of violence and heartace.
People in China don't have that option. Unions are illegal, and there is no recourse for poor working conditions. There is no reason to believe in fact that things will ever change over there, or that we will ever be able to compete with the near slave labor conditions in their factories.
Your assertion as to why manufacturing phones in China is more cost effective, is baseless and speculative at best. The Chinese workers are not going to be able to stand up for themselves legally and anyone with half a brain knows it.
On a side note I can't help but notice that this thread has been carpeted with one sided moderation on the issue. Makes me wonder...
once more into the breach
I don't think those articles show what you think they show. Either that or you think liberalism is based around the idea that people hate Apple products.
cited
Excessive hours? It's all part of the Apple culture: 90 Hours A Week And Loving It
You're right that apple gets singled out due to it's extraordinary profitability. But the reason they're singled out is, you'd think a company with a profit margin like that could let the workers live like humans, wouldn't you?
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
"Will the public ever sour on Apple devices in light of the constant media attention on supplier working conditions?""
Do people still by Nike products?
Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
Do you use Windows? Because rumor has it they have some of these conditions there, too.
I wonder how many iPhones Apple sold in the time it took the writer to come-up with that phrase...
The desire for a reasonable slice of the pie shouldn't be referred to as greed, especially in light of what's on the opposing side of the equation.
The labor unions fought for "more" from management and the "ownership society" (in the vernacular of the neoconservative right wing) because it was there and could have been shared, easily, for the betterment of all concerned. The high tech mfg isn't the auto-industry, which failed because it refused to deal with reality and build better cars. Audi and BMW, which don't mfg ANY low-end cars, and do business in Germany, one of those SOCIALIST states, are profitable and competitive. And Apple amassed 100 BILLION fucking $'s while leading their industry in innovation and price.
Don't give me this crap about the greed of the unions. Management and government together have 'arranged' globalization and the migration of U.S. mfg as well as anything else they can 'outsource' because it fed stock options, bank accounts of the already wealthy and an entire propaganda industry which supports politicians' placement in Washington.
You should really take a look at what's happened to 'our' economy, starting with Ron Raygun, as the financial sector's bite of GDP doubled and the rest of the economy shrank shrank proportionately. It's called stagnation, and the only reason the stats don't look worse is because our illustrious 4th estate doesn't bother to report on how 'oafishoil' measures have been manipulated over time to make it seem like all remains well in the garden, as long as we tend to the roots and wait for the next season of growth.
Gotta watch Being There again.
It won't affect Apple in any way whatsoever. Afterall where would the iSheep and fanboys get their apple-gasms from?
Good thing more than half the country has higher than conservative intelligence.
Have you ever seen the slave labor camps in Redmond! It'd make a Marine Drill Sergeant cry like a baby!
I think that all those commenters believing that China's working conditions are OK should be "re-educated", in the Mao sense, by working for a year at some Foxconn manufacturing line (without access to their american bank account for the whole period, of course).
If you haven't seen it already, here's the ABC News clip of the Foxconn factory to get a glimpse inside.
Putting Apple in the "Big Evil Corporation" list over something like this is just enormously naive...
...according to all the Apple astroturfers.
Have you got your LWN subscription yet?
Surely if it's genuine "criminality" then hands up, fair cop and time to stop NOW? As an individual you don't get the option to turn round and say "sure I'll stop robbing banks in a year or so once I've had time to re-organise my life and finances and arrange a different stream of income" ...?! One rule for us...
People in China don't have that option. Unions are illegal, and there is no recourse for poor working conditions. There is no reason to believe in fact that things will ever change over there, or that we will ever be able to compete with the near slave labor conditions in their factories.
Right, as I said - China is going through its industrial revolution right now, with the migration of workers away from subsistence farming and other non-technology jobs into an industrial workforce, with the corresponding rise of a middle class. That is exactly what happened in the West too - just much further back in time. If you think it will never change (or that is hasn't already changed *enormously* over the last 20 years), then you don't really have an eye on history.
Your assertion as to why manufacturing phones in China is more cost effective, is baseless and speculative at best. The Chinese workers are not going to be able to stand up for themselves legally and anyone with half a brain knows it.
They're not baseless and speculative; they are well understood and heavily researched and calculated. A mass market consumer product supply chain is one of the things large companies know a lot about.
On a side note I can't help but notice that this thread has been carpeted with one sided moderation on the issue. Makes me wonder...
What, that reality has a "bias" that doesn't agree with you, thus it must be some secret conspiracy of paid moderation designed to silence the highly influential and world-famous /. commenters?
Slashdot *wishes* that Apple was pureeing Chinese children and using their bones to make glue for iPad screens because that type of glue is extra sticky and impossible to remove, making the device harder to repair at home, then perhaps they would have some actual justification for the frothing rage and wild speculation that goes into their white-hot hate of the company. As it is, they're just another large American company; some bad parts, some good parts, some uninteresting parts. It's not like they have a secret underground volcano lair.
According to anyone who actually looks at the facts.
Putting *any* corporation in the "Big Evil Corporation" list is naive, since it speaks to a thought process that is one dimensional and superficial. No single large entity is entirely "evil" or "good". Apple has plenty of both, but it's not exclusively one or the other. The world is not made up of Sith and Jedi. The vast majority of people, companies, groups, organisations fall somewhere in the middle.
"Will the public ever sour on [tech gadgets produced in China] in light of the constant media attention on supplier working conditions?"
FTFY, because if we face facts Apple is simply the richest, most high profile company using Chinese manufacturing at this time.
If Apple had it's 1999 or 2000 market cap I'm not sure we'd be hearing squat about this.
Some days it's just not worth
chewing through my restraints.
Wow, and speaking of Apple astroturders.
Have you got your LWN subscription yet?
"Executives at multiple suppliers, in interviews, said that Hewlett-Packard and others allowed them slightly more profits and other allowances if they were used to improve worker conditions."
Apple on the other hand gives the workers on Apple products bonuses directly. Which do you think the workers would rather have "improved worker conditions" such as better soap in the executive washrooms, or more pay?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
90 hours of work as a desk jockey will tire you out and probably make you unhealthy over time, but 90 hours of factory work on heavy machinery could kill you when some drives a forklift while sleep-deprived. That aside, everyone in the factory I work for has done 60+ hours for the past two weeks, which is apparently illegal in China and those jobs involve heavy lifting and running around constantly. It also matters a lot whether those hours happen over 5, 6 or 7 days.
Honestly, it's to Apple's benefit not to have people doing those kinds of hours regularly, because people produce much lower quality stuff and they work a lot more slowly than they normally do. Any factory that has people doing hours like that is poorly run. And yes, I most certainly am including my own workplace in that description. That said, there were people acting like they won the lottery when they got their checks with 40+ hours of OT, so I certainly believe that the workers like the cash, though if they're anything like us, they were swearing constantly about everything while actually working the ridiculously long shifts.
Anyhow, it appears that things will improve for the Chinese workers. Some of them will probably be mad about getting less OT, but the changes sound positive overall.
There is in fact negative motivation for Apple to improve worker conditions at all.
If they had not hired this investigator stories about worker conditions would die off naturally instead of being fanned.
So because Apple is trying to investigate and help, they are being attacked. If I ran Apple, it would be - lesson learned, don't try to help. At least if I didn't have any moral qualms...
If people really wanted to help Chinese workers they would ask other companies to fund similar studies, to put pressure on them to "be like Apple". But now no company would be stupid enough to actually look at worker conditions because they see they would simply be attacked for it.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Well, easy, that should be illegal as well.
Why? If a person is willing to work that long, why should it be illegal to do so?
When I was young I sometimes put in 80+ hour weeks on projects at work. You know what ? I enjoyed it! Yes in theory the company was "taking advantage" of me by allowing me to work that long, but the truth is I wanted to and was happy to do so because I was enjoying myself and what I was learning.
Even now, I am reluctant to put in 80 hours but I still work sometimes a lot of hours during the week. I would hate to have my CHOICE of working denied simply because you are too lazy to do so and want to put obstacles in the way of truly productive people.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Rather than letting a guy work like hell while he is young, American do-gooders want to make sure that the Chinese have to endure a decade more of factory labor than they would otherwise just to lead a comfortable life when they leave.
Nothing like nosy Americans to screw over the poor of the earth, all the while claiming they are helping.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Only an Apple Hater would claim that voluntary labor was slavery, just because Apple is involved somewhere.
Take your "logic" elsewhere and screw over some other group of poor people instead why don't you?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
We are going to give you a job for a couple dollars an hour, which is way more than you're making now on welfare
How evil is that! Offering money which you have a choice of taking! BASTARDS!
you will work the hours we tell you
Actually the workers are trying to get more hours to earn more, so FAIL.
you will live in a dormitory we provide for you
They could live elsewhere but why? the dorms there are cheaper and have zero commute so they can work more,m which I have to remind you again is what they WANT to do. FAIL.
You will eat what we feed you.
That is total bullshit, as the ABC thing showed they have a cafeteria or the workers could eat their own food. FAIL.
You will do what we say with serious repercussions to your future health
The report said the safety issues had been fixed. FAIL.
So basically all I can get out of your fail laden Apple Hater screed is that you hate chinese people and want to keep them working in factories years longer than they would otherwise.
I think I've found true evil, only it's not Apple...
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
You misspelled "astroturfers", or you're 12.
Still deciding.
Nice counterpoint though, I can really see the thought and intelligence behind your argument!
To be fair, part of the problem is that priorities are also extremely f**ked up. Many have piled on tons of debt to live in a house they can't afford, drive an expensive car that's twice what they require, and watch a home-theatre that they don't need.
As an acquaintance of mine said: it's a bit irritating and confusing to be stuck in a grocery line behind the girl who's paying in food stamps while chatting on her iphone...
People need to wake up and fix their priorities. As long as having an iphone, big-screen, and monster-truck are priorities, people will not focus on the issues of savings, corruption, violation-of-rights and other such things that need change before the situation can be bettered.
It's refreshing to to see something not libertarian in /. nowadays.
Also, it should be noted how right-wing arguments are almost always to blame someone for some sin. the greed of unions, our luxurious way of life...
It's amazing to see some people in 2012 still using the sin logic.
Right up there with your string of logical fallacies, you should go look that up.
Have you got your LWN subscription yet?
You are making the false assumption that Apple gives a rats ass about people's opinions.
Remember I was just saying *I* would do as a hypothetical. It has no bearing on what Apple will do, very obviously in fact they are continuing to try and help because they feel it is correct to do so.
In fact I agree with you that Apple does not care at all what people think and just continue to do what they see as the right thing to do.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
When people worked 6 10hour days a week for minimal wages. It wasn't modernization that stopped the practice. It was people on the streets demanding it. Unions and a lot of violence and heartace.
Or it was technological and business practice improvements raising US worker productivity which lead to rising wages and affordability of better working conditions. Unions may have played a role, but without productivity improvements, unions could not have had much influence (and indeed, they did not until in the US the 1920's).
Chinese factory worker wages are continuing to rise, despite the lack of unions, as the capital stock improves and businesses are able to become more productive.
there is no recourse for poor working conditions
Many Chinese migrants move from factory to factory as they build up a work history to find ones that have better work conditions and higher pay.
Just a thought. But what if empowering the local Chinese with more wealth and work advancement opportunities provided enough societal confidence for political change? Would new-found freedom from governmental reform be worth it? I'm just asking...
China is not a free country. It is a country that literally crushes dissidents under tank treads. It is a country that arrived where it is today by relying on brutal exploitation, and those in power are not just going to roll over.
People who claim that China in just going through a phase that current first world countries went through a few generations ago need to understand that China today is not like the US in the 19th and early 20th century. The US is better now than it was then, but it was a million times better then that China is today in terms of social and political freedom.
Informative, how do i mod this up? :)
Point one out to me, just for kicks.
Quote it specifically.
Point one out to me, just for kicks.
Quote it specifically.
Because you really don't know? It would not surprise me. OK, "According to anyone who actually looks at the facts..." False attribution... "appeals to an irrelevant, unqualified, unidentified, biased or fabricated source in support of an argument."
Have you got your LWN subscription yet?
jo_ham, what you have to realise about Daniel Phillips is he's a follower of Mike Daisey. A liar. He has no morals or ethics.
Daniel Phillips ought to look up the concept of "telling the truth". He's still claiming that Mike Daisey was right, long after Daisey himself admitted to lying. Neither one has morality nor ethics. They're as bad as each other.
Oh look. Daniel Phillips, the one who's still claiming Mike Daisey was right, long after Daisey himself admitted to making up all the Apple accusations.
What a pair of liars.
No, I mean quote something of mine that is a logical fallacy. If you can't, then clearly I didn't make one, and you're just slinging words to try to escape from your losing argument position.
Of course, we both know that's what's happened here.
I love how you created the strawman that better working conditions equates to soap in the executive bathroom. Also, I could find no source for Apple giving bonuses to supplier workers. If you want something real to sink your teeth into, I did find a survey in the news that what Foxconn workers really want is increased pay, but not so much shorter hours or better working conditions:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/foxconn-workers-would-rather-get-salary-boost-than-reduced-hours/2012/03/30/gIQA27NvlS_story.html
The same article I originally quoted from said that Apple was notorious for driving down the prices paid to suppliers, which must ultimately come out of wages paid to workers.