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Apple Is Forced By EU To Give 2 Years Warranty On All Its Products

dsmalle writes "Apple has adapted its warranty to cover 2 years, under pressure of the European Union and after European consumer organizations sued Apple. From the article: 'The warranty conditions have been changed and these changes can be found on the website of Apple. Products that are purchased on the website of the manufacturer or in stores are now under warranty for two years, as it is required by the EU warranty guidelines. However, the warranty for Apple products that have been purchased elsewhere will not change and they will only be given a limited one-year warranty.'"

270 comments

  1. As An American... by TheNinjaroach · · Score: 4, Informative

    This is really amusing to me, that the EU has laws that mandate minimum warranty policies for devices sold.

    Some of the only comparable laws I can think of in the US have to do with automobile emissions systems. If your car starts spewing too much pollution before 90,000 miles, the manufacturer is on the hook regardless of what warranty they sold with the car.

    --
    I went to eat some animal crackers and the box said, "Do not eat if seal is broken." I opened the box and sure enough..
    1. Re:As An American... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      This is really amusing to me, that the EU has laws that mandate minimum warranty policies for devices sold.

      Actually, it's much more than that.

      Not only was Apple not selling devices with the warranty required by law, but Apple was trying to upsell additional Applecare warranty to cover the mandatory warranty time period.

      Of course, if it's out of warranty, you're probably SOL since Apple designs most of its products to be non-repairable.

    2. Re:As An American... by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      There are states with strict implied-warranty laws - I think as long as 4 years. Some states won't even allow as-is sales!

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    3. Re:As An American... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

      Yeah, why in the world would people want to be sure their shiny toys are covered for a reasonable period? If they don't WANT shit that breaks in a year and a day, they don't have to BUY it, right fanbois?

      Anyway, this is moot. Apple sends out the fanboi alert about once a year anyway, and the lemmings line up for the next model.

    4. Re:As An American... by squiggleslash · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You know, I've lived in both the UK and US, and I've immersed myself in both cultures, and I still don't understand why Americans on Slashdot (only on Slashdot) appear to think it's a big deal that the EU has laws like this.

      This is standard consumer protection stuff. Does the US have a directly equivalent law? No idea, but it doesn't lack laws that are in the same ballpark. Indeed, some, such as the requirement that all electronics be vetted by the FCC and contain shielding to prevent their circuits from accidentally broadcasting something that might cause a little interference on a TV or radio in the same room, seem a tad less understandable than creating a basic standard of merchantability - you have to stand behind your product for two years. Hardly unreasonable.

      What gives?

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    5. Re:As An American... by vlm · · Score: 0

      Some of the only comparable laws I can think of in the US have to do with automobile emissions systems

      The feds regulate how they operate and the terminology, google for "Magnuson–Moss".

      The states regulate specific minimums, if any. Right off the top of my head practically all states have "something" for vehicle sales (especially used vehicle sales) and residential construction defects. I am about 99% certain wisconsin has some weirdly specific stuff for residential solar energy systems. Some states, as you can guess, are hyper-regulated centrally controlled markets and are poor, and some are pretty much free-market and are relatively richer.

      Generally the corporations purchase warranty laws from the legislators that favor them in the fine print and are ridiculously below going market rates. That way everyone looks good, because the legislators are "doing something" and the corporations are providing far beyond what the law requires. For example, in Wisconsin, according to a law that must have been written in the 70s, solar electric panels as part of a contracted system must be warranted for five years. In 1970 five years might have been an impressive achievement but in 2012 I don't think you can buy panels guaranteed less than 20 years.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    6. Re:As An American... by EzInKy · · Score: 1, Interesting

      So I guess this raises the question of why Europeans bought Apple products despite those products breaking the law? Did they have faith in that their government would enforce the law, or did they simply not care that the law was being broken?

      --
      Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
    7. Re:As An American... by Olivier+Galibert · · Score: 1

      This is standard consumer protection stuff. Does the US have a directly equivalent law? No idea, but it doesn't lack laws that are in the same ballpark. Indeed, some, such as the requirement that all electronics be vetted by the FCC and contain shielding to prevent their circuits from accidentally broadcasting something that might cause a little interference on a TV or radio in the same room, seem a tad less understandable than creating a basic standard of merchantability - you have to stand behind your product for two years. Hardly unreasonable.

      What gives?

      Errr, Europe has the same non-interference/resistance to interference laws that the US have.

          OG.

    8. Re:As An American... by TheNinjaroach · · Score: 2

      I still don't understand why Americans on Slashdot (only on Slashdot) appear to think it's a big deal that the EU has laws like this.

      I don't think that this perception has anything to do with Slashdot. It's certainly a cultural thing.

      If Congress tried to pass something like this, we would never hear the end of "socialist liberal government taking over the free market." Sigh. But as you said, standard consumer protection stuff.

      --
      I went to eat some animal crackers and the box said, "Do not eat if seal is broken." I opened the box and sure enough..
    9. Re:As An American... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Why would they care? How important is it to you in making a purchase that the maker and seller have crossed all the regulatory Ts?

    10. Re:As An American... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Well clearly they just didn't know. Since all the electronics they buy have 2 years warranty (by law) it isn't like they are going to go check that. They wouldn't find out until the thing broke and they needed warranty service. The fact that this even became a big enough deal to make it to the EU legal system means that many Apple products DID fail in less than 2 years (whether it was just battery not holding a charge or something worse) and enough people complained to bring it to the EUs attention.

    11. Re:As An American... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      imo these laws make sense because they deal with the information asymmetry. Price is pretty much the only clear signal consumer gets so without it overall quality will fall through the floor in the race to achieve the lowest cost. Reliability is not really known in advance (only the producer knows quality of materials used and assembly, unintended design faults also happen) so there is an incentive to do a quick cash-in by making as shoddy product as you can get away with. Without consumer protection laws only reputation can slow down the race to the bottom and we know that more often than not short term gains will trumph common sense in the mind of your average CEO.
      From the western point of view definition of minimum quality also makes sense in 2 ways:
      - cutting the amount of short lived stuff in landfills
      - reducing share of wages in the end price, thus reducing incentives to outsource production

    12. Re:As An American... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So I guess this raises the question of why Europeans bought Apple products despite those products breaking the law?

      Many people don't know the law. Unlike Apple, they don't have hundreds (thousands?) of lawyers on retainer.

      And if this was the USA, there would be a class-action lawsuit where the lawyers get billions and the end users get a $15 coupon to buy a new ipad.

    13. Re:As An American... by vlm · · Score: 0

      What gives?

      Culturally over here a longer guarantee is often available but it is sold by retailers for about 1/3 the cost of the item and only elderly, weak willed, fools, etc buy them. They are not claimable because of ridiculous fine print. So its basically money down the drain. An "extended warantee plan" is looked at culturally like buying lotto tickets, kind of lower class, not exactly aspirational. Hear "Govt to require extended service plan" Think "oh great now best buy will charge me 1/3 more for basically doing nothing". "Now they'll continue to do nothing, while charging more, gee thanks big government"

      Also across the pond we show our fitness to reproduce by conspicuous consumption. If you want to get laid you should be buying another in two years, preferably as expensive as possible, not trying to fix it. Maximization of lifetime cost not minimization.

      Finally the early adopter types have little use for it. So... my 3 year old video card died. Why should I care, its been on the shelf for a year since I've been using my new one. The Apple i-device users are famous for buying another every year, so who benefits by a two year guarantee for a one year product, its like demanding a 10 year guarantee for a gallon of milk from the grocery store...

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    14. Re:As An American... by DrXym · · Score: 1

      The Raspberry Pi was bitten by the european equivalent just last week. It lacked the CE mark it requires for devices that can emit em radiation or be affected by it. I'm actually wondering if the Pi will run afoul of the FCC regs next.

    15. Re:As An American... by UnknowingFool · · Score: 4, Informative

      The summary and story is somewhat misleading. Under EU law, Apple has supported 2 years but it wasn't clear to a consumer in the EU. The warranty policy on Apple website listed 1 year.**
      **Local warranty laws apply. Your country may support a longer warranty.

      Worse yet, they were selling extended warranties which adds more years but not clearly stating that consumers already got 2 years. There wasn't consensus about the length from some anecdotal testimony so Apple may have to review this with all of their employees. This stems from the earlier Italian ruling. Italy did not rule that Apple was breaking laws by not offering a 2yr warranty but rather it was somewhat confusing to the customer and that an asterisk on the warranty agreement wasn't good enough. Needlessly upselling also was noted.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    16. Re:As An American... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Some of the only comparable laws I can think of in the US have to do with automobile emissions systems. If your car starts spewing too much pollution before 90,000 miles, the manufacturer is on the hook regardless of what warranty they sold with the car.

      New Zealand has interesting laws with regard to warranties on goods for non-business use.
      Under the Consumer Guarantees Act you can get a replacement/repair if the goods don't last for a reasonable time.
      ('Reasonable time' meaning whatever is considered reasonable for the type of product.)

      A side effect of that is. If a company offers an extended warranty they have proved that it's reasonable for the goods to last that long.
      So if an extended warranty exists then there's no reason to buy it, because your covered by the act for that time anyway :)

      There are a few exceptions, like goods bought for businesses or business use and goods sold at auctions etc..

    17. Re:As An American... by skovnymfe · · Score: 5, Informative

      In the EU, you can't change the laws by writing terms on your website, or providing some arbitrary "agreement" with the product. All it takes is for someone to challenge it, and Apple will get a slap on the wrist and get told that the law applies.

      And now that someone did challenge this 1 year warranty "agreement", Apple has got their slap on the wrist and changed their heinous ways.

      That's all there is to it really...

    18. Re:As An American... by ericloewe · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't call it amusing, but it's pretty much normal here in Europe.

      Why should a company be allowed to sell something with a 90-day warranty? That's simply absurd.

    19. Re:As An American... by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Most people don't think about warranties unless and until the product stops working. At that point they'll dig out the paperwork and see if they're covered.

      They probably don't know that 2 years is a mandatory warranty period. And wouldn't think about the warranty period at time of purchase unless the retailer brings the topic up.

      The EU law is there to ensure that product vendors don't take advantage of this lack of foresight by consumers. And because it's a common market to ensure some consistency of treatment across the union.

    20. Re:As An American... by BasilBrush · · Score: 4, Interesting

      If Congress tried to pass something like this, we would never hear the end of "socialist liberal government taking over the free market." Sigh.

      Absolutely. Because the States is effectively rules by the corporations. Somehow certain consumers would complain about a law that only benefits them. How brainwashed are they?

    21. Re:As An American... by ericloewe · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The Apple i-device users are famous for buying another every year, so who benefits by a two year guarantee for a one year product, its like demanding a 10 year guarantee for a gallon of milk from the grocery store...

      Some people change cars every four years. That means we don't need to make cars that last any longer.

      See how half-assed that logic is?

      Even if you do buy a new iDevice every year, why should the old one stop working?

    22. Re:As An American... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some states, as you can guess, are hyper-regulated centrally controlled markets and are poor, and some are pretty much free-market and are relatively richer.

      Typical libertarian BS.

      You probably believe all the claims about Texas being some kind of fiscal paradise too.

    23. Re:As An American... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      An "extended warranty plan" exists in EU too.

    24. Re:As An American... by DrgnDancer · · Score: 2

      Apple's "AppleCare+" warranty extension is actually pretty good. It even covers user idiocy. I dropped the hundred bucks on it, and they happily replaced the phone I dropped into a foot of water. Shockingly the thing actually worked for a day afterward, I should have done a better job of drying it. I think a corrosion short killed it, not an actual water short.

      --
      I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
    25. Re:As An American... by similar_name · · Score: 2

      Some states, as you can guess, are hyper-regulated centrally controlled markets and are poor, and some are pretty much free-market and are relatively richer.

      Here's a list of states by per capita income
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_income

      Here's a list of states by party
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_states_and_blue_states#Current_classification

      Of the top ten 'richest' states (plus DC), 8 are blue states. Are you saying democrats create thriving free-markets and republicans over-regulate. Wait, that doesn't sound right either.

    26. Re:As An American... by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      well, apple is still liable to the extend the law requires(well, the retailer is, but apple was acting as the retailer in this).

      bigger shit is stuff like installing them with moisture sensors that are trigged before the device is sold to consumer, selling devices that they claim are meant to not work under 0c and so forth(though I think about that there's some consumer protection decision that if it's a fucking mobile PHONE there's the assumption that you can use it outdoors during winter too).

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    27. Re:As An American... by GNious · · Score: 1

      Last I checked, there were 20-odd CE certs available, and it didn't really matter which one you got...

    28. Re:As An American... by DrgnDancer · · Score: 1

      Some states, as you can guess, are hyper-regulated centrally controlled markets and are poor, and some are pretty much free-market and are relatively richer.

      Erk? Really? I've live in Alabama (very free market, very poor), Louisiana (mostly free market, pretty poor), Florida (middle of road free market, fairly rich), and Massachusetts (pretty regulated, pretty rich). I don't think the correlation you're trying to make exists. I'm not saying that more regulation necessarily leads to a richer state, but certainly the opposite is not true either. Texas and Florida do pretty well with very free markets, Mass, California, and NY all do pretty well with very regulated ones (Despite the state government's financial problems, California as an economy remains strong). Many of the most free market states in the deep south are some of the poorest in the country though. In a very (very) general statement, blue states tend to be richer than red states (though the rust belt is pretty blue and gives lie to those statistics in their specific case). I think it's a lot more complicated than a simple "regulated economies poor, free economies rich" dynamic though.

      --
      I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
    29. Re:As An American... by AngryDeuce · · Score: 5, Interesting

      And if this was the USA, there would be a class-action lawsuit

      If this was the USA, the ToS likely prohibits the customer from bringing a class-action lawsuit in the first place.

      I don't know for sure, though, as I don't have the time to read 56 pages worth of legalese.

    30. Re:As An American... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't call it amusing, but it's pretty much normal here in Europe.

      Why should a company be allowed to sell something with a 90-day warranty? That's simply absurd.

      If the product is fresh seafood that warranty would be rather impressive.

    31. Re:As An American... by greatpatton · · Score: 1

      The difference is that the CE tag is just an declaration from the supplier that the product is conforming to EU laws. This is just a sticker to apply. Raspberry Pi just forgot to order those stickers. This is not really the same thing as a FCC declaration.

    32. Re:As An American... by realitycheckplease · · Score: 3, Funny

      True apple fans upgrade before the warranty expires!

    33. Re:As An American... by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      I find this aspect of Apple pretty hilarious actually. For a brand that is supposed to be "superior quality", they sure don't stand behind it. If they were worthy of the propaganda, this would not be an issue at all. 4 year warranties would be standard.

      You would never have to worry.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    34. Re:As An American... by Khyber · · Score: 1

      That doesn't stop us non-Apple users from bringing suit against Apple for violations of the law. It's still a crime against ALL consumers, and since I didn't sign away shit, I am quite free to sue on the side of the people.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    35. Re:As An American... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apple does not "design" its products to be non-repairable. What a foolish statement. Its well known that Apple has the best service in the business and repairs or replaces devices much mroe readily than anyone else.

    36. Re:As An American... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The CE mark indicates that the equipment has been tested by a certified lab and meets the appropriate standards, in the same way that an FCC declaration of compliance indicates that the manufacturer has had the equipment tested to US Part 15 standards. so, yeah, it's just a sticker. But you damn well better be able to produce documentation to support it when asked.

    37. Re:As An American... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are only partially correct. The emissions equipment warranty is 7 years;I don't believe it's mileage based. And it only covers the catalytic converter.

    38. Re:As An American... by icebrain · · Score: 1

      Even if you do buy a new iDevice every year, why should the old one stop working?

      From Apple's perspective, it's a good thing. It keeps sales turnover high.

      Like car companies, they only want the products lasting long enough that customers won't be upset at having to buy new ones when their old ones fail. Two years seems to be the tipping point for consumer electronics (cell phones, computers, tablets, etc.). If they could make their products fall apart the day after the warranty ends without pissing off the customers, they'd do it in a heartbeat.

      --
      The meek may inherit the earth, but the strong shall take the stars.
    39. Re:As An American... by drdaz · · Score: 1

      We didn't care. The law stipulates that the retailer must honor the 2 year warranty. So that's taken for given. The government will enforce the law, as we've seen.

      Also, the only place where this would have been a problem was when buying from Apple directly. Taking the iPhone as an example, the vast majority of purchases are not from Apple directly but from a telco. So any issues with the product are dealt with by the retailer.

    40. Re:As An American... by Renraku · · Score: 1

      A majority of my friends that have bought new iPods and iPhones have had to get repairs on them every few months. The ones that bought used typically had no problems, so it's just one of those 'infant mortality' things where new devices fail a lot more often than do middle age devices, simply because defects will show up more often sooner than later.

      --
      Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
    41. Re:As An American... by itsdapead · · Score: 1

      So I guess this raises the question of why Europeans bought Apple products despite those products breaking the law? Did they have faith in that their government would enforce the law, or did they simply not care that the law was being broken?

      ...because pretty much every electronics retailer in Europe has tried, or is still trying, the "talk down the statutory warranty to scare the punter into taking out an extended warranty" trick so people either (a) know about it and politely ignore it or (b) fall for it. Apple get the publicity because of their high profile. Refusing to deal with Apple because they tried this is about as proportionate as refusing to be driven by someone because they once got a ticket for doing 38 in a 30 zone.

      --
      In a survey of 100 programmers, 111111 thought that duck-typing was a good idea.
    42. Re:As An American... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Americans don't like socialism (aka communism in their distorted world view). How DARE the government limit what and how the corporations are entitiled to sell their wares to the consumers.
      A consumer is just that, a low life sucking oxygen beast with no rights except that of spending money and getting shit in return.

    43. Re:As An American... by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      This is really amusing to me, that the EU has laws that mandate minimum warranty policies for devices sold.
       

      I believe Americans would go nuts if they were forced to buy extended warranties. And that's all that's happening, really - Europe mandates 2 year warranty, you get a "free" extended warranty (the cost of which is built into the price).

      I mean, Apple's probably going to absorb the cost of the extra AppleCare (which provides for 2 years technical support via phone, too) for this round of devices, but you can bet the next round the price the devices will go up.

      And then you'll have Europeans complaining about why it's $500 US here, and $900 US over there (ignoring the fact that the $900 includes sales tax (excluded from US price), duties and import fees), and the leftover goes into providing the extended warranty.

      Warranty isn't free, and you can bet the reason why Americans get "screwed" over 90 day warranties is to get stuff cheaper by stiffing on the extended warranty. All the EU has done is make the extended warranty mandatory.

    44. Re:As An American... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's only required for end user completed devices. The distributors required the CE mark, not the government. From the government's perspective, it wasn't needed on the Pi because its not targetting end users nor a finalized project.

    45. Re:As An American... by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

      As an American, it infuriates me that the USA doesn't have comparable warranty requirements. We're getting screwed.

    46. Re:As An American... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It STILL is misleading, since there is NO "real" warranty in the EU as in: "my notebook broke down after one year, replace it".

      It is just defects liability for defects present at the time of sale, that cause the device to fail. In the first year, the burden of proof is on the manufacturer to prove that there was NO initial defect that caused the device to fail (so, we have an implicit warranty unless they prove it was just bad luck).

      In the second year, the consumer is basically f*cked, since HE is now the one who has to prove that an initial defect in the device caused it to fail. So yes, Apple will now have to mention that there is still liability with them during the second year. But just like always, they will just say "maybe, but can you prove it?" (That - in German - was the exact wording an Apple salesperson used when he complained about a broken Macbook power cord. Being the third one among my friends who had to replace it on their Macbooks).

      No other company I know of treats their customers like that. They will usually just take your device, keep it for months, then repair/replace it as a sign of good will.

    47. Re:As An American... by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

      FCC rules aren't consumer protection laws at all. The comparable EU rules are 1999/5/EC (Radio and Telecommunications Terminal Directive), 2004/108/EC and 89/336/EEC (electromagnetic compatibility directives).

      The nature of all of these laws is to regulate what electromagnetic radiation is allowed and what is disallowed. European rules are more extensive because they also regulate what kinds and amounts of radiation electronics must accept without malfunction.

      These rules don't exist so much to protect consumers as to protect radio services so that operators can be reasonably assured that other radio users or electronics that unintentionally emit radio frequencies don't interfere with licensed or permitted users and that licensed users don't interfere with each other and thus make both systems inoperable in the presence of the other.

    48. Re:As An American... by spire3661 · · Score: 1

      apple products are not designed to be non-repairable. They are designed without USER REPAIRABLE options in mind, a very significant difference. BMW doesnt design its cars to be user repairable either, but you can if you have the proper tools/training.

      --
      Good-bye
    49. Re:As An American... by garyoa1 · · Score: 2

      Yeah, sad but true. The US slid into fascism quite some time ago. Most don't have a clue as to what that word means or what socialism, communism etc. mean either, for that matter.

      --
      Wuddooeyeno? IITYWYBMAD? Like nuts? eclecticallyincorrect.com
    50. Re:As An American... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Huh? Never heard of those laws for car emissions. Since when have those been in effect?

    51. Re:As An American... by Velorium · · Score: 1

      On one hand, it's because those in rural areas tend to keep far away from the cities because the cities are so fast paced and anything to do with them is scary. Backed by them keeping their minds in religion to look for answers versus science, and raising their kids on such methods, you have a closed system that renews itself. Then you have the greedy people within the elite class understanding this, and tactically playing the idiots like a deck of cards. I wonder if the U.S. had even half the longitudinal land space than it actually does, whether we'd have either two countries from the civil war, or the south would've been transformed into a more progressive culture by default from overpopulation and integration of cultures.

    52. Re:As An American... by the+computer+guy+nex · · Score: 1

      "Somehow certain consumers would complain about a law that only benefits them. How brainwashed are they?"

      Count me with the brainwashed.

      I don't smoke. Never have, never will. In my state they outlawed smoking pretty much everywhere. I breathe cleaner air everywhere I go.

      Guess what? I'm still against that legislation. I believe a private business should have the right to allow a perfectly legal activity occur within their premises. The Free Market will solve this problem - if enough people only patron at businesses that do not allow smoking, the pro-smoke places will go bankrupt.

      I believe the Free Market would solve this also. If 2 year warranties were that important, individuals would buy competitor products that have 2 year warranties. I do not believe in more laws and regulation for the sake of more laws and regulation.

    53. Re:As An American... by tophermeyer · · Score: 1

      To spin this around I'll put on my Patriotic Freedom Hat (TM).

      Americans have historically preferred that government not interfere with how people and corporations do business. This freedom to do business how we please traditionally places a responsibility on people to be careful about what arrangements they enter into. More recently people have begun agitating for government to protect people from their own stupidity and inability to understand they contracts they sign.

      A person with Rights has an obligation to be responsible. If a free person remains willfully ignorant about the contractual relationships they sign they have nobody to blame but themselves.

    54. Re:As An American... by tophermeyer · · Score: 1

      If I can expound on your comments, it's also not quite accurate to look at local economy figures as an indicator of wealth. Many 'poor' areas develop untrackable economies based on unreported labor, drug, and illegal liquor production. Despite being on-paper 'poor', many unregulated areas possess a surprising amount of wealth.

      As an example, I grew up in a rural area of Maine. Though the area was 'poor' and didn't produce much tax revenue, many people supplemented their legal income by growing Marijuana. A lot of this money sits in cash stockpiles rather then reentering the local economy.

    55. Re:As An American... by higuita · · Score: 4, Informative

      In Europe you cant waive basic rights. if your country law say you can do lawsuits, no matter what the ToS try to sell you, isnt valid. This warranty case is just that, the ToS says something that isnt valid as the above law already gave you that rights

      --
      Higuita
    56. Re:As An American... by BasilBrush · · Score: 2

      Count me with the brainwashed.

      I will. Indeed you are exactly the kind of person I'm talking about.

    57. Re:As An American... by Americano · · Score: 1

      Wow. Everything you know about suburban & rural america, you learned by watching MSNBC. Congratulations, you're an idiot.

    58. Re:As An American... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Somehow certain consumers would complain about a law that only benefits them.

      Because some consumers don't believe that the function of the law is to "benefit" them, because some consumers understand that when a law becomes a means by which one group "benefits" at the expense of another group, they will quickly see other groups of people lining up to be beneficiaries of other laws at their expense.

      You see, the "brainwashed" understand that once the law is perverted into a system of entitlements, rather than an instrument of justice, things rapidly devolve until the "state" becomes a wholly owned subsidiary of Random MegaCorp, Inc. The law should be about preventing harm - "You may not advertise fraudulently." Not about "offering benefits" to unspecified groups of people who may or may not care about (or even want) the "benefit" being provided to them.

      Here's the thing - no corporation is going to go into business to produce products that will lose it money. So if you mandate that they have to provide a 2 year warranty, they are going to build the product to last for 2 years - and then price it in such a way that it will still make them a profit. You're not going to get a "free lunch" out of this law, it simply makes the average product more expensive for everybody, regardless of whether or not they actually care about that 2 year warranty. So, congratulations, by "benefitting" everybody, you just made sure that the corporation continues to make its tidy profit, and fewer people can actually afford the product they're selling.

      Why is it that nobody can understand simple cause and effect, and shouts that anybody who believes the government should interfere minimally & reluctantly in the operations of the free market is "brainwashed"? I suppose you also think that "free" health care is actually "free," too?

    59. Re:As An American... by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      I believe a private business should have the right to allow a perfectly legal activity occur within their premises. The Free Market will solve this problem - if enough people only patron at businesses that do not allow smoking, the pro-smoke places will go bankrupt.

      The smoking ban, as I understand it, is more for the protection of the employees than the patrons. While second-hand smoking is unhealthy, I am not in a bar for very long, so the smoke will most likely affect me less than the guy who smokes a pack a day, every day. However, if I worked at a bar, I would have to be in the smoke all day, almost every day. If the same environment was in a factory, it would qualify for "dangerous conditions" or may even be illegal or I may be able to wear a gas mask or other protection. Before smoking was banned in bars, I have been to some bars where the smoke is so thick it's like fog.

      If 2 year warranties were that important, individuals would buy competitor products that have 2 year warranties.

      Because we live in a near ideal Free Market, meaning that there is somebody selling an iPod with a longer warranty. Right. Also, there is no way for manufacturers to agree to offer shorter warranties and screw the customer.

      Free Market is the same as Communism, both are great in theory, but really suck in practice.

    60. Re:As An American... by Americano · · Score: 1

      Anecdotal, but:

      First-gen iPhone: still working, still in daily use. Battery life has suffered a bit, but I don't use it heavily enough to care. About 4 years old.
      5th-gen iPod: still in regular use, now about 6 years old. Again, battery life has declined a bit, but I use the iPod in my car most of the time, where it's connected to a power/usb cable, so battery life isn't *that* important to me.
      MacBook Pro: bought in early 2006. Still good enough for most purposes, needed a single repair to a faulty spring inside the power button, which was occasionally getting stuck instead of springing back.
      Mac Mini: bought late 2005. Hard drive failed in 2010, still in use as a small file server on my home network.

      I know at least 5 or 6 other people with Apple gear who've had similarly long lifespans, far beyond any warranty period available through AppleCare. And there's a reason why Apple has consistently high ratings for customer satisfaction and reliability. For all that people love to claim it's overpriced junk, it tends to last - and hold its value pretty well, too.

    61. Re:As An American... by GuldKalle · · Score: 1

      What ToS? I'm pretty sure you can walk into an Apple shop, wave around some cash, and the salesman would be happy to let you buy anything without demanding a signature.

      --
      What?
    62. Re:As An American... by CharlyFoxtrot · · Score: 1

      A true believer. Praise Rand. Just remember: if you believe hard enough, anything can come true (copyright Disney) and if it doesn't you just didn't have enough faith in the market. Halleluiah.

      --
      If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
    63. Re:As An American... by CharlyFoxtrot · · Score: 1

      From Apple's perspective, it's a good thing. It keeps sales turnover high.

      Like car companies, they only want the products lasting long enough that customers won't be upset at having to buy new ones when their old ones fail. Two years seems to be the tipping point for consumer electronics (cell phones, computers, tablets, etc.). If they could make their products fall apart the day after the warranty ends without pissing off the customers, they'd do it in a heartbeat.

      Having a thriving second hand market, which necessitates gear that lasts for longer than 2 years, is also a good thing for Apple. It supplies the low(er) price range customers (who Apple doesn't cater to directly) with Apple products which may lead to them buying the more expensive kind in the future, the money people get from reselling their device goes back into Apple's pockets when they upgrade and it enlarges the market for apps and add-ons which is a boon for Apple. Besides one of the key characteristics Apple's brand is identified with these days is quality (translated into high customer satisfaction), I don't think they would be willing to "cheapen" their brand by making low quality stuff (or at least not make that mistake again.)

      --
      If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
    64. Re:As An American... by CharlyFoxtrot · · Score: 1

      Like in sports you need rules to make a game fair and beautiful. The difficult part is having enough rules to make for an interesting game but not so much that you stifle it and make it uninteresting. Personally, I think the game as played in the US leaves too many injured on the field.

      --
      If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
    65. Re:As An American... by Kalriath · · Score: 1

      This is the argument often trotted out by Americans defending Apple's practices, and no matter how many times it gets trotted out it's still a load of crap. This is not new - Apple always had to cover manufacturing defects for 2 years (or more. Where I live in New Zealand, Apple would be expected to cover manufacturing defects for no less than five years). And AppleCare still offers more than the statutory warranty does anyway (coverage for some varieties of accidental damage, phone support, limited "how do I" type support, and most importantly global coverage - all of which are not mandatory).

      The price isn't going to go up any more than it already was going to. All that will happen is Apple will release new guidelines for pushing AppleCare to greater focus on what it does give you rather than just the "it's a longer warranty" angle.

      --
      For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
    66. Re:As An American... by Americano · · Score: 1

      I like how you declined to address any point he made, in favor of simple ad hominem.

      I had my doubts, but I'm convinced of the righteousness of your cause, now.

    67. Re:As An American... by Americano · · Score: 1

      The smoking ban, as I understand it, is more for the protection of the employees than the patrons.

      Yes, you're right. That's often the argument. What I'm curious about though is this: if we're so eager to protect the health of people from second-hand smoke, why aren't we eager to ban "first-hand" smoke as well? Why is tobacco not outlawed entirely?

      As we move closer and closer to socialized health plans, the cost of smoking will be socialized as well: why have I heard very little call for an outright ban on cigarettes and other tobacco products? Seems like it'd be a great way to help manage costs of universal health care, wouldn't it? After all, does somebody have the "right" to smoke, if I'm going to be made to pay for their emphysema or cancer treatments down the line? Should *I* be able to smoke, knowing the cost it will incur on my fellow citizens?

      This is an honest question. We're quick to ban smoking, but why not just stop it at the source? Everybody would be healthier for it, and it would lower health care costs. Win-win, isn't it?

    68. Re:As An American... by CharlyFoxtrot · · Score: 1

      He didn't make any points, he just posted beliefs.

      "Guess what? I'm still against that legislation. I believe a private business should have the right to allow a perfectly legal activity occur within their premises. The Free Market will solve this problem - if enough people only patron at businesses that do not allow smoking, the pro-smoke places will go bankrupt."

      I believe the Free Market would solve this also. If 2 year warranties were that important, individuals would buy competitor products that have 2 year warranties. I do not believe in more laws and regulation for the sake of more laws and regulation."

      Post some actual proof or arguments and I'll debate you or him. Until then my default position for anyone arguing their position from pure belief, whether it's a belief in some god or the mystical "free market", is scorn.

      --
      If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
    69. Re:As An American... by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      if we're so eager to protect the health of people from second-hand smoke, why aren't we eager to ban "first-hand" smoke as well?

      "first-hand" smoke is your choice. If you do not want health problems, just don't smoke. If you choose to smoke, blame yourself when you have health problems. OTOH, second hand smoke is not always a choice. Yes, it was possible to avoid second-hand smoke by not going to bars, nightclubs, restaurants etc, also not working in them, which is more limiting than just telling the smokers to smoke outside.

      As for an outright ban, my country is increasing the taxes on cigarettes so in time it will become too expensive to smoke (and for now gets a lot of tax euros from the smokers). I would not support a ban on tobacco, as I believe that people should be allowed to harm themselves, but not others. So, you can smoke all you want, just do it in your own home (assuming you live alone or with other smokers) or outside, so I (or your kids) do not have to breathe the smoke.

    70. Re:As An American... by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      They would care because any failure within the mandatory warranty period but not within the period of the warranty actually provided would cause direct financial harm to them. Also, anyone purchasing an Applecare warranty at increased cost to cover a period which was already supposed to be covered automatically suffered direct financial harm without the device ever failing.

    71. Re:As An American... by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      Somehow certain consumers would complain about a law that only benefits them.

      Right - because doubling the warranty period will have no effect on the price.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    72. Re:As An American... by sonicmerlin · · Score: 1

      He even capitalized "free market". He must've been a troll. He couldn't possibly be serious, could he?

    73. Re:As An American... by sonicmerlin · · Score: 1

      The extra cost is absolutely minimal. Seriously. The % of devices that fail within 2 years but not within 1 year is absolutely tiny. Once you've gotten past the "infant mortality" prone stage of 3-6 months, the chances of your device surviving in the long term is much, much larger.

    74. Re:As An American... by Americano · · Score: 1

      "first-hand" smoke is your choice. If you do not want health problems, just don't smoke. If you choose to smoke, blame yourself when you have health problems.

      See, I don't get this, it seems like a remarkable double standard to me. You're not allowed to smoke in public places, because it'll hurt other people, but you're allowed to smoke at home, because it only hurts yourself. Except, in hurting yourself, you're driving up the costs of healthcare for everybody - especially in a "universal health care" situation.

      This hurts other people by forcing them to pay for your unhealthy choices, leading to either reduced quality of care for them, or higher prices == higher taxes == less money for their own discretionary spending. If society has the right to stop you from smoking in public because it'll hurt someone else, don't they have the right to stop you from smoking in your home, and hurting yourself, and hurting other people through higher healthcare costs in this manner?

      And if you maintain they *don't* have the right to stop you from doing this... how do you reconcile that with the fact that you have no problem curtailing their liberties in one venue, but not in another? Honest question about how you can be both for public smoking bans, and against private smoking bans - I don't see a logical way to reconcile them, if the justification for a smoking ban is simply that "it harms other people."

    75. Re:As An American... by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      See, I don't get this, it seems like a remarkable double standard to me. You're not allowed to smoke in public places, because it'll hurt other people, but you're allowed to smoke at home, because it only hurts yourself. Except, in hurting yourself, you're driving up the costs of healthcare for everybody - especially in a "universal health care" situation.

      Because i am not thinking it in terms of money. You smoke, get health problems, die earlier, it's your own fault. I do not smoke, so i do not want to get health problems or die earlier because of your smoking. The problem is not that the health care costs more if a lot of people get health problems because of second-hand smoking, the problem is that people get health problems because someone else filled the room with toxic gases. Even if the healing did not cost anything, it would still be bad.

      If you harm yourself, i have no problem with it, even if it may cost me some money to patch you up (healthcare taxes). What I do not like, is you harming me, because I most likely cannot just pay for the problem to go away - I have to visit the doctor etc and I do not like it.

    76. Re:As An American... by Velorium · · Score: 1

      I realize that there's more than what I said affecting the whole issue, but it's a big factor none-the-less, is it not? Please, enthrall me with your superior hypotheses and insight as to why, "Somehow certain consumers would complain about a law that only benefits them."

    77. Re:As An American... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OG.

      Stop it, just stop it right now. Your username is RIGHT THERE ABOVE YOUR POST FOR ALL TO SEE.

      Writing it again at the end of your post makes you come across as a cretin, or possibly a 6 year old elementary school student.

      "My Post By Olivier Galibert Aged 6 1/4

      (snip post content)

      By Olivier Galivert"

    78. Re:As An American... by Daniel+Phillips · · Score: 3

      So the bottom line is, Apple has progressed from selling people things they don't need to selling people things they already own.

      --
      Have you got your LWN subscription yet?
    79. Re:As An American... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The crooks have known all along.. In some countries the minimum warranty for such equipment is 3 years.

      Apple has been weaseling out of it for years, but if you pushed them, they would give you the legal warranty after a bit of a fight.

    80. Re:As An American... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you kidding me. Apple's products are super easy to repair. How do I know because I do all the time... just the other day I had to take repair a mac the an HP laptop... the mac was so much easier to get apart than the HP it took a quarter of the time. once inside they are just like any other computer... you comment just shows how little you know about computers.

    81. Re:As An American... by Americano · · Score: 1

      even if it may cost me some money to patch you up (healthcare taxes)

      And that is precisely why I don't get it. You say you don't care about the money, and are willing to pay more, so long as healthiness is maximized. But you're not maximizing health this way - maximum health (maximum good for the most people) would be achieved not by banning smoking in restaurants, but by banning smoking altogehter - period, full stop. We've banned other drugs, why not tobacco?

      If maximizing health is your goal, why not a full ban on tobacco products? Consider:
      -- EVERYBODY is healthier, not just the people who don't smoke;

      This is also compatible with the notion of socialized healthcare! Consider:
      -- Healthier people are more economically valuable because they are productive;
      -- Healthcare costs are lower, meaning more money is freed up to support other social programs (or *gasp* given back to the people it was taxed from to use for whatever purpose they wish);

      This maximizes overall health, and it also has the side benefit of minimizing health costs related to smoking, which are shared across all of society in a universal health care scenario. It's also likely, statistically speaking, that lower-income people will smoke / use tobacco products - the people who would most benefit from lower health care costs (and thus increased access to health care, either more of it, or cheaper for the same level), or who would most benefit from having an extra $100 in their paycheck each month that wasn't tied up in feeding their nicotine addiction and defraying the social cost of healthcare through healthcare taxes.

      And if it's not about "maximizing health for all," but about "maximizing health for ME," then how does the law change anything about the situation? You're free to choose not to smoke; you're free to avoid places where smokers congregate; you always have been; so other than legislating a group of people into a second class citizen status - "We want you to have the freedom to smoke, we just don't want you to do that filthy shit around US, you disgusting addicts!" - what has banning smoking in restaurants accomplished? What makes the health of at-will employees of a restaurant more deserving of legislative protection than the health of smokers, who have been sadly tricked into becoming addicts by deceptive and manipulative advertising, through no fault of their own?

      No, if you're banning smoking for health reasons, it's pretty clear that you need to ban smoking entirely, or you need to reconcile "everybody needs to pay for everybody to have healthcare" with "you're free to make bad and stupid health decisions that drive up everybody's costs, and result in reduced quality of care for everybody" - i.e., "You can't take a dump in the publicly maintained park, because it shits up the scenery for everybody."

      At some point, all matters of taxation and entitlements and socialized costs become a financial analysis, no matter how much you may wish it weren't and protest that it isn't about dollars and euros and yen. If you're going to force other people to pay for a person's healthcare, you should also be willing to force that person to use that healthcare money wisely.

    82. Re:As An American... by jp10558 · · Score: 1

      Oddly enough, I believe the free market *has* solved this problem through several methods.
      1) Some items just come with a longer warranty (and are usually expensive)
      2) Extended Warranties from manufacturers for a fee. Each purchaser can determine if they want a longer guarantee at checkout.
      3) Insurance policies by third parties (Most stores extended warranties, SquareTrade, Credit Card warranty extension programs)...

      If you care enough, you use one of the above methods. I got a credit card that offers the insurance on anything I buy with that card, so most everything has a 2 year coverage. Sometimes I buy Squaretrade for 3-4 year coverage...

      Sometimes I buy the manufacturer repair plan like Lenovos because I don't want reimbursement but repair...

      I wonder if the prices in the US + the 2 year coverage from one of the above roughly correspond to the price in the EU or if we're getting gouged?

      --
      Opera, Proxomitron-Grypen,GPG 0x0A1C6EE3
    83. Re:As An American... by Americano · · Score: 1

      For somebody so obviously liberal in his leanings, you sure do a good impression of a bigoted asshole. Woody Allen once remarked, "Confidence is what you have before you understand the problem," and it's clear from your commentary that you're just brimming with confidence and certainty in the righteousness of your opinion.

      When your entire commentary rests on the assumption "anybody who doesn't agree with me is a backwards rube to be mocked," you pretty much give up any chance at being taken seriously, or of being engaged in a serious attempt at discourse. Your problem - and yes, it is a problem - is that you've almost certainly never made a good-faith attempt to *understand* the positions of people who disagree with you.

      Why would people be against a law that only benefits them? I can't speak on behalf of anybody, but I'd expect that it's far more likely to be driven by an objection like "it runs counter to my view of justice and fairness," or "I object to the philosophical underpinnings of this law" than it is to be driven by ignorant religiosity as you've suggested.

      But of course, that couldn't be, could it? In your breathtaking arrogance, you've already concluded that you're right, no dissent is valid, and anybody who disagrees with you is automatically assigned the label of "backwoods idiot." I'm glad I'm not as smart as you - it must be enervating, looking down on so many people all the time.

    84. Re:As An American... by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Prices are set at price points. 179, 199, 299 that sort of thing. The few pennies extra a two year rather than one year warranty will cost will not tend to change the retail price at all.

    85. Re:As An American... by CharlyFoxtrot · · Score: 1

      Poe's law in effect.

      --
      If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
    86. Re:As An American... by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      The % of devices that fail within 2 years but not within 1 year is absolutely tiny.

      The EU seems to think it's significant.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    87. Re:As An American... by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      As I said, I believe that people should be allowed to harm themselves, as long as they do not harm others. So, in my opinion, you should be allowed to smoke, drink and do drugs (as long as you do not kill me while high or rob me for the "fix", drive drunk and speed (on a completely empty road, so if you cause an accident, only you and your car will be damaged; the government will make you pay for the lamp post or whatever you hit), not wear seatbelts, have an open container of mercury in your room etc. As long as the harm done is only to you.

      You are also free to spend your money as you wish, be it on nicotine, drugs or something else.

      My wish is to maximize health for people who want it, including me. Smokers make a conscious decision to risk health for the whatever benefits of smoking, that is their choice. People around them chose to not smoke to have better health, so why should the smokers force them to endure the stink and get worse health (and probably no benefits of the smoking that the smokers get).

      For example, if you have young children, do not smoke at home. Or do you expect a 5 year old (or a newborn) to get his/her own apartment and move away from you?

      You're free to choose not to smoke; you're free to avoid places where smokers congregate; you always have been; so other than legislating a group of people into a second class citizen status - "We want you to have the freedom to smoke, we just don't want you to do that filthy shit around US, you disgusting addicts!" - what has banning smoking in restaurants accomplished? What makes the health of at-will employees of a restaurant more deserving of legislative protection than the health of smokers, who have been sadly tricked into becoming addicts by deceptive and manipulative advertising, through no fault of their own?

      On the other hand, all restaurants allowing smoking make the other people into second class citizens. "Want to have better health, or worse, are allergic to cigarette smoke? Then don't go to any bar, ever, or wear a gas mask. We want to smoke and going outside to do it is so bad, we'd rather you just stay outside."
      The smokers can smoke, just do it outside, so the smoke goes away instead of staying in the room and increasing in concentration.

      Also, smoking is by choice. While there are some drugs that can make you an addict after the first try, alcohol is tasty and you feel the effects even the first time, I really doubt that anybody found their first cigarette "tasty". So, becoming a smoking addict is a long and conscious process, where you must endure the sore throat, caughs etc until you get used to it and actually can smoke more easily. Also, at least in my country, tobacco advertising is banned and all cigarette packs carry health warnings.

      Besides, compare the pros and cons of both:
      Smoking in restaurants is allowed:
      + Smokers can smoke more easily
      - Non-smokers have to avoid all restaurants/bars, not go there as patrons and especially not work there.

      Smoking is banned in restaurants:
      + Non-smokers can work in restaurants and can be patrons
      - Smokers have to go outside to smoke, which, depending on the weather, may include having to put on a coat.

      In my opinion, the slight inconvenience of smokers having to go outside for a smoke is far outweighed by the ability of non-smokers to actually go to a restaurant or work there.

    88. Re:As An American... by Americano · · Score: 1

      As I said, I believe that people should be allowed to harm themselves, as long as they do not harm others.

      But harm takes many forms, and these decisions are never made in a vacuum. Sure, you're not blowing smoke in my face, but you're costing me and everybody around you far more money in health care costs, in reduced access to doctors & healthcare, and in increased costs managing emergency services personnel - healthcare is not a perfectly elastic resource that can scale up to provide everybody everything they need the instant they need it. So, while you're getting rushed to the emergency room for your emphysema brought on by your smoking, I'm being told I need to wait for an ambulance to transport me for treatment of the stroke I'm having, despite my not being a smoker. Your choice to smoke is never as isolated as it seems. If we're going to claim the right to curtail someone's choice to smoke because it has an ill effect on someone else's health, I see no reason why we can't claim the right to curtail someone's choice to smoke entirely, because there are numerous ways it can negatively impact other peoples' health.

      Assuming single-payer universal healthcare, someone deciding to smoke has two very direct health related consequences to me which are completely independent of whether or not a single particle of their secondhand smoke ever sullies my lungs: I either pay more money into the healthcare fund because smokers have driven up average costs, or I get less actual healthcare out of the system via less access to doctors, medication, and treatments that I may need.

      If we're socializing costs, and taking on the role as "health advocates" as a society, we really can't afford to simply say "you can do whatever you want, no strings, no restrictions," because that's a blank check, and sooner or later, it's going to end up overdrawn. Remember, once you give the government the power to force you to do something, all it takes is a single reversal of power in an election to put that power into the hands of people who disagree with you. Give them a blank check, and they might just decide to cash it in for something you're not particularly supportive of.

      In my opinion, the slight inconvenience of smokers having to go outside for a smoke is far outweighed by the ability of non-smokers to actually go to a restaurant or work there.

      I understand where you're coming from, but I still disagree with your principle. I don't think any group of people should be in the habit of making their lives more comfortable at the expense of the comfort of others. Smoking in bars is a trivial example, admittedly, but I'm uncomfortable with the slippery slope potential of the precedent.

    89. Re:As An American... by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      I don't think any group of people should be in the habit of making their lives more comfortable at the expense of the comfort of others.

      This can be taken both ways - the smokers or the non-smokers get more comfortable, while making the other group less comfortable.

      If we're going to claim the right to curtail someone's choice to smoke because it has an ill effect on someone else's health, I see no reason why we can't claim the right to curtail someone's choice to smoke entirely, because there are numerous ways it can negatively impact other peoples' health.

      Because second-hand smoking effects are direct, while the "money" effects are indirect. Yes, a smoker will visit the doctor more often, but so may an obese non-smoker. Or someone who works in a dangerous environment. Also, a smoker will die sooner, meaning that the pension he gets paid is less, leaving money for other people. In addition to that, the smoker pays much more taxes than a non-smoker, because of the large taxes on cigarettes (current duty is about 67EUR for 1000 cigarettes, this is in addition to VAT), so a heavy smoker pays quite a lot in his life. As long as smokers are a minority (and various restrictions, bans on ads and taxes on tobacco try to make it so), it should not be a problem.

      If you ban something, especially an addictive substance, you only create a black market (the USA tried to ban alcohol in the 1920s, it didn't work). So, instead, you should try to make people no longer want it, be it by banning ads (fewer new smokers) or forcing the health warnings on cigarette packs or just increasing the prices. Also, you should try to minimize the damage, for example by making the smokers smoke outside (this also works as a deterrent, because at least one person will be too lazy to get up and go outside, so he will just not smoke).

    90. Re:As An American... by Velorium · · Score: 1

      "... you sure do a good impression of a bigoted asshole."

      Can't tell if trolling or just that blind. I mean, did you not first by calling ME an idiot? What is it that made you felt the need to be an asshole to me?

      Woody Allen once remarked, "Confidence is what you have before you understand the problem," and it's clear from your commentary that you're just brimming with confidence and certainty in the righteousness of your opinion.

      Perhaps, although are you not then projecting?

      When your entire commentary rests on the assumption "anybody who doesn't agree with me is a backwards rube to be mocked," you pretty much give up any chance at being taken seriously, or of being engaged in a serious attempt at discourse. Your problem - and yes, it is a problem - is that you've almost certainly never made a good-faith attempt to *understand* the positions of people who disagree with you.

      Please don't tell me that you don't see the irony in assuming something as well.

      Why would people be against a law that only benefits them?

      Perhaps because a significant portion (not all!) that could sway one way or another has been brainwashed otherwise as BasilBrush suggested. What, you're going to tell me that political ads are largely informational and not propaganda meant to exploit those who haven't been taught to think for themselves?

      But of course, that couldn't be, could it? In your breathtaking arrogance, you've already concluded that you're right, no dissent is valid, and anybody who disagrees with you is automatically assigned the label of "backwoods idiot." I'm glad I'm not as smart as you - it must be enervating, looking down on so many people all the time.

      When did I attack you and assign all as backwood idiots? I don't see any absolutes in my original post.
      Look, I get that there's countless factors aside from religion and population density, yet it does it not have a significant effect on people's scopes of just how far chains of events can reach, and the amount factors people are forced to consider on a daily basis? This makes people more likely to translate that behavior to how they view social systems and their beliefs of how to keep them in order. Again I say, seriously, does it not? Because it's my understanding that it DOES, and that's the basis of my argument and my pondering. Attack this facet of my argument versus my character, because that is the root of it.

  2. Headline Is Understated for Once by MightyYar · · Score: 5, Insightful

    For once, the headline is understated.

    It really doesn't matter what Apple's warranty duration is, because there seems to be a statutory warranty of 2 years in at least part of the EU.

    What this story is really about is Apple selling 2-year AppleCare plans in places with statutory warranties of 2 years, which is pretty darned slimy IMHO.

    --
    W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    1. Re:Headline Is Understated for Once by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      All extended warranties are slimy. There's always something in the mice type that screws you when you really need it.

      So which is it Apple? Your products are high quality or junk where you need some sort of over priced repair plan because Apple products are going to break all the time?

    2. Re:Headline Is Understated for Once by DigiShaman · · Score: 0

      Normally warranties cover just the intended operation. Did it break? That sort of stuff. Applecare goes a level beyond. Items include software technical support beyond reporting or troubleshooting a potential bug. They provide functionality support and education to the customer. Just because apple offers this as an extra paid service, do you agree that EU should force Apple to offer this for free? That doesn't seem fair.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    3. Re:Headline Is Understated for Once by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      In general, I agree - but I've always either regretted not buying AppleCare or been glad to have it. I don't find Apple's products to be any shoddier or less reliable than other electronics in the same price range, but even if they were the AppleCare service has always been fantastic for me.

      But selling a redundant warranty is slimy as hell. That's like Best Buy crap.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    4. Re:Headline Is Understated for Once by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The EU is not forcing to offer Applecare for free. It is forcing Apple to indicate clearly that Apple products sold in the EU are under the 2-year statuary warranty (for defects present in the product before delivery) mandated by law.

    5. Re:Headline Is Understated for Once by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      These stories are all really misleading, actually. The mandatory 2 year "warranty" is by the vendor and after half a year, the buyer has to prove that the device was faulty from the day of purchase to get it.

      Since Apple stores and their website make Apple the vendor, they have to grant that 2 year warranty.

      Apple products sold anywhere else have the mandatory 2 year warranty by the vendor plus whatever warranty Apple likes to grant, the latter of which is not mandatory.

    6. Re:Headline Is Understated for Once by MightyYar · · Score: 2

      But that's not how they market AppleCare. They primarily market it as an extended warranty and extended support. Even the revised ad I linked to is slimy, with it still saying 1 year but then having a footnote.

      I generally really like Apple, but these last two marketing stories have me a bit miffed. First it was the misleading 4G service with the iPad and now it is this warranty business. My only consolation is that I don't live in the EU, where all this misleading stuff is happening... so sure, Apple marketing is a bunch of liars, but at least they aren't lying to me directly (yet) :)

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    7. Re:Headline Is Understated for Once by EzInKy · · Score: 1

      For most products I would agree with you, but after three in-home repairs my TV was declared a lemon and replaced with a newer model free of charge. If I had not purchased that warranty I would be starring at a $2000 pile of junk.

      --
      Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
    8. Re:Headline Is Understated for Once by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Aside from translations apple care has almost zero localization. They don't offer additional services to the mandatory two year warranty, they offer an extension to a non existent mandatory one year warranty. Either apples legal department was to cheap to check local laws or they scammed people on purpose.

    9. Re:Headline Is Understated for Once by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      These stories are all really misleading, actually. The mandatory 2 year "warranty" is by the vendor and after half a year, the buyer has to prove that the device was faulty from the day of purchase to get it.

      Not really true phrased that way. The law states that products should be expected to last more than 2 years with normal operation, so if it doesn't you have by default proved it was "faulty" (even if by design) from the day of purchase.

    10. Re:Headline Is Understated for Once by dkf · · Score: 1

      The EU is not forcing to offer Applecare for free. It is forcing Apple to indicate clearly that Apple products sold in the EU are under the 2-year statuary warranty (for defects present in the product before delivery) mandated by law.

      Yes, but it is up to Apple to prove that the products were abused, with problems from normal use being something their products should not have. Deliberately jumping up and down on you iPhone counts as voiding the statutory warranty, but simply calling people normally does not. (Yes, there is space in there for court decisions, but the courts are mostly pretty reasonable in this area.)

      Which isn't to say that they've got to fix the device on the spot, or offer a temporary replacement while the device is being fixed. It's merely that what you get with an Applecare contract that lasts to 2 years after purchase is largely (in ways that cover most of what customers really care about) what they're mandated to offer anyway as part of the purchase price. The other point is that it is the retailer that has to make this offer, not the manufacturer. Buy online or from an Apple store? Apple has to cover you. Buy from elsewhere, e.g., Walmart? Talk to them. (Consumer protection law doesn't cover how the retailer and manufacturer deal with things between themselves.)

      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
    11. Re:Headline Is Understated for Once by EzInKy · · Score: 1

      Apple employs more than enough lawyers to help them determine whether offering their products for sale in a particular market would produce a fair result or not, so yes, the EU should force Apple to provide whatever it requires other manufacturers to provide to their customers.

      --
      Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
    12. Re:Headline Is Understated for Once by poity · · Score: 1

      Is it possible to downgrade your warranty in the EU? I think the 2 year mandatory warranty is only useful to make companies with less than stellar brand recognition invest in the quality of their products. For well-established companies, their image is too important to not strive for high quality.

      --
      your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
    13. Re:Headline Is Understated for Once by ericloewe · · Score: 1

      Apple isn't being forced to give away AppleCare, they're being forced to respect the standard warranty imposed by the EU.

      In other words, they're being forced to repair the devices for free if they were bought in the last two years.

    14. Re:Headline Is Understated for Once by gnasher719 · · Score: 2

      Apple employs more than enough lawyers to help them determine whether offering their products for sale in a particular market would produce a fair result or not, so yes, the EU should force Apple to provide whatever it requires other manufacturers to provide to their customers.

      Which is exactly zero. The EU doesn't force manufacturers to give any warranty at all. So Apple's ONE year warranty (read that, you idiot submitter? ONE year, not two!) is completely voluntarily (of course once you buy the product that warranty is part of the deal).

      The EU does however the seller of a product to fix problems under certain conditions. So if you buy an iMac at PC World, the EU gives you rights against PC World, not against Apple. If you buy a Canon printer at an Apple Store, the EU gives you rights against Apple, not against Canon.

    15. Re:Headline Is Understated for Once by BlackCreek · · Score: 1

      For once, the headline is understated.

      It really doesn't matter what Apple's warranty duration is, because there seems to be a statutory warranty of 2 years in at least part of the EU.

      What this story is really about is Apple selling 2-year AppleCare plans in places with statutory warranties of 2 years, which is pretty darned slimy IMHO.

      This story is also about Apple not publicly acknowledging that they had to honor a 2 year warranty and doing that by default as well.

      I think it does matter what is Apple's stated default warranty duration. There is a difference between having a certain right and having this right being effectively respected without hassles. I don't doubt that before this you would be able to get the 2 year warranty honored, the question is whether that would take a visit to the shop, or if that would take pursuing a legal complaint of some sort. Perhaps you if are a lawyer, that is trivial to do, but if you have no idea how to bring them into legal compliance (say, you are an expat and don't even speak the local language correctly), it can be a real PITA.

      Think about getting a refund for your Windows license because you refused the EULA and the EULA tells you to talk to the seller to get your money back. Regardless of your legal merit, shops -in general- won't reimburse you for your Windows license. People that go as far as getting a lawyer involved get their money back (and get a Slashdot story), most people don't bother.

    16. Re:Headline Is Understated for Once by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which is exactly zero. The EU doesn't force manufacturers to give any warranty at all. So Apple's ONE year warranty (read that, you idiot submitter? ONE year, not two!) is completely voluntarily (of course once you buy the product that warranty is part of the deal).

      The EU does however the seller of a product to fix problems under certain conditions. So if you buy an iMac at PC World, the EU gives you rights against PC World, not against Apple. If you buy a Canon printer at an Apple Store, the EU gives you rights against Apple, not against Canon.

      Yes and No
      This ruling is for the case when Apple is also the seller, e.g. its online store or retail Appla stores.

    17. Re:Headline Is Understated for Once by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As others have said, AppleCare isn't just a warranty. And if you still think that it's "pretty darned slimy" you would really crap a brick when you find out what additional services you get when you buy a 1 year warranty from the likes of Best Buy or WalMart.

    18. Re:Headline Is Understated for Once by burnetd · · Score: 1

      And then only if the device was defective when sold. If not then that AppleCare might still come in handy.

    19. Re:Headline Is Understated for Once by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unless you'd bought in the UK (or other parts of the EU) where the retailer by law would've been forced to repair or replace it for approx 2-3 years after sale anyway (rough minimum life expectancy for a TV).

      Where this becomes really useful is for mechanical (mostly) devices such as washing machines, that are expected to last up to 10 years. I've never yet bought one that did last 10 year - but for the 2 I have bought, I got a free* replacement for both when they crapped out.

      *However - the amount of effort required to get Ikea to accept responsibility for the shit they sell, would make most people reconsider the word 'free'.

    20. Re:Headline Is Understated for Once by gnasher719 · · Score: 1

      This story is also about Apple not publicly acknowledging that they had to honor a 2 year warranty and doing that by default as well.

      Apple is a manufacturer and also a seller. As manufacturer, they have no obligation to talk about sellers' obligations. As a seller, there isn't very much they have to say. In the UK, I think every store, Apple or anyone else, mentions somewhere that you have statutory rights, and sometimes they have to use words like "we don't accept returns on sales goods, but this doesn't affect your statutory rights". No obligation to say what these rights are.

      The one situation where this is different is apparently, at least according to some Italian court, the case of selling AppleCare (or extended warranties). Apple always stated quite clearly what rights you have after buying AppleCare, but should have said more clearly (according to an Italian court) which rights you had without buying AppleCare, not in order to inform you of these rights, but in order that you can judge correctly what additional rights you get.

      You also need to be aware that these EU guaranteed rights aren't worth much if your seller goes bankrupt, or if you move to a different country so making use of your rights is difficult. And of course, unlike the stupid article is stating, nothing has actually changed. When you buy a Mac at PCWorld, Apple just told you what rights you may have against PCWorld; you still have to judge for yourself how much effort it might be to make them fix your problem, compared to AppleCare.

    21. Re:Headline Is Understated for Once by itsdapead · · Score: 1

      All extended warranties are slimy.

      That's because they generally cover the product from 1 year after purchase until its 3-4 years old - the exact period during which it is least likely to fail.

      Also, remember the golden rule: never pay to insure what you could afford to repair or replace. The really slimy thing about extended warranties is that, like all insurance, they distort the market for paid after-sales service, since it no longer depends on the willingness of customers to pay (and insurers don't give a damn as long as they can factor it into their premiums - in fact, the scarier the potential bills for the uninsured the better).

      --
      In a survey of 100 programmers, 111111 thought that duck-typing was a good idea.
    22. Re:Headline Is Understated for Once by ericloewe · · Score: 1

      "Defective when sold" is usually interpreted as "developed a defect that was not caused by negligence or bad luck".

    23. Re:Headline Is Understated for Once by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Best Buy and WalMart are far worse, no question. But that doesn't make Apple's misleading sales pitch any better.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    24. Re:Headline Is Understated for Once by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Perhaps you if are a lawyer, that is trivial to do, but if you have no idea how to bring them into legal compliance (say, you are an expat and don't even speak the local language correctly), it can be a real PITA.

      I don't think the situation is as dire as you think. Here in the US, we also have some states that have longer "implied" warranties than the typical manufacturer's express warranty. And some products are subject to lemon laws as well. I honestly have no idea how one forces a seller to comply because it has never been a problem for me - I've never had a problem with a return on something that was obviously faulty. I've even had T-Mobile give me a replacement on a phone that had clearly been exposed to water (and salt water no less), simply because not ALL of the telltales were red. More apropos, I've had Apple replace a badly-designed (IMO - poor strain relief) power cord for a MacBook with the newer version when it started fraying.

      I imagine most products would be fair game for small claims court - no lawyer needed. My first stop would probably be the Better Business Bureau.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    25. Re:Headline Is Understated for Once by tophermeyer · · Score: 1

      Not to keep beating on Best Buy (not that they don't deserve it), but I see it happen there all the time. They'll scare customers with hypothetical repair quotes from their own service, which is vastly inflated over what you might get at an independent shop.

    26. Re:Headline Is Understated for Once by tophermeyer · · Score: 1

      I imagine most products would be fair game for small claims court - no lawyer needed. My first stop would probably be the Better Business Bureau.

      This seems like a rare instance where the consumer has an edge over the retailer. You have all the time/resources to file BBB complaints, post flaming reviews, pursue arbitration, etc. For Apple or T-Mobile, the cost of replacing the questionably damaged product is worthwhile to avoid paying people to deal with those things.

  3. In your face, programmed obsolescence! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Now we just need to slowly raise the legal warranty of all these devices so they end up reaching 5 or 6 years, then we will foster production of robust things that last a decent amount of time!
    -happier consumers
    -less junk

    1. Re:In your face, programmed obsolescence! by Bert64 · · Score: 2

      Much higher prices...
      Goods that last are not compatible with modern capitalism, once everyone who's going to buy a product has bought one, it will never break resulting in no further sales and the vendor going bankrupt.

      If you force vendors to produce reliable products, then they will find some other method to force you to keep paying them, wether its forced obsolescence (ie the product still works, but is no longer compatible with anything else) or a rental model where you never own the product and just have to keep paying for it perpetually...

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    2. Re:In your face, programmed obsolescence! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In that case, how come some DIY tool manufacturers proudly provide life warranty for their goods? Have these guys gone insane?

    3. Re:In your face, programmed obsolescence! by stoolpigeon · · Score: 1

      For most hand tools a lifetime warranty is pretty easy because if the tools are used as intended it is almost impossible to break them. If you only use a screw driver as intended, you can't break it. If you use it as a pry bar, a chisel, etc. Then you can break it but no warranty. Look at a steel combo wrench and figure out how to break that turning a nut by hand.

      What makes high end tools more valuable is not that they will last longer, but that they are manufactured to tighter tolerances.

      --
      It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
    4. Re:In your face, programmed obsolescence! by compro01 · · Score: 1

      Look at a steel combo wrench and figure out how to break that turning a nut by hand.

      Cold weather. Common tool steels will become rather brittle at -40 or so. Combine that with a nut that wants plenty of torque and now you're got two non-combination wrenches.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    5. Re:In your face, programmed obsolescence! by tophermeyer · · Score: 2

      My experience with hand tools is that they will get stolen or lost LONG before they will break. The lifetime warranty is great (in theory), but when somebody walks off with your wrench you still have to go out and buy a new one. There will always be a business for high quality hand tools.

    6. Re:In your face, programmed obsolescence! by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Goods that last are not compatible with modern capitalism

      How come vendors weren't going out of business en masse before the advent of "made in China" and the associated reduction in the average lifespan of goods? It was still capitalism, after all.

    7. Re:In your face, programmed obsolescence! by Xest · · Score: 1

      It begs the question as to whether at least some economic growth in recent decades has actually been built off the back of consumers having to purchase replacement products that shouldn't need replacing.

  4. Re:This does not seem fair by Jerom · · Score: 4, Informative

    It's manufacturer warranty - the retailer has nothing to do with this.

  5. I'm glad to hear this by miknix · · Score: 1

    That is something I really like when buying electronic equipment within Europe, knowing that warranty is always 2 years (with exceptions like batteries). How does it work out in other places?

    1. Re:I'm glad to hear this by Splab · · Score: 1

      Some years back I read that manufactures tend to ship their best runs to the eu because of our warranty requirement. I can't think of a single electronic gizmo I've bought the last 10 years that didn't make it way beyond the 2 years.

    2. Re:I'm glad to hear this by Dunbal · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You obviously have never owned a new (port merger) Seagate hard drive.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    3. Re:I'm glad to hear this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Heh, funny, the only device that ever crapped out on me before those 2 years were up, was a Seagate HDD.

    4. Re:I'm glad to hear this by ericloewe · · Score: 1

      In other places Apple/*insert whatever company you want here* sells crap with short warranties (some as short as 90 days) and the consumer gets screwed over.

    5. Re:I'm glad to hear this by ewanm89 · · Score: 1

      My 5 year Seagate drives are still running which is more than I can say for any WD drives I've had in that timeframe, had some before that that lasted about 1 year before total fail or major corruption too.

    6. Re:I'm glad to hear this by GuldKalle · · Score: 1

      And in those same places someone actually buys crap with short warranties. Demand a better warranty and you will get it. Pee your pants and you'll get wet.

      --
      What?
    7. Re:I'm glad to hear this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you don't likek the warranty then don't buy the product. Sheesh.

    8. Re:I'm glad to hear this by GodGell · · Score: 1

      Heh, funny, the only device that ever crapped out on me before those 2 years were up, was a Seagate HDD.

      Exactly the same for me, and I'm running 8 hard drives, several of which are way beyond the 5 year mark.

      --
      [SHOW SOME LENIENCY TOWARDS ... I mean, FUCK BETA] Eat. Survive. Reproduce. GOTO 10
  6. Silly headline.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    .... Just silly... Apple wasn't "forced by EU", was forced by the EU directives that were transposed to law in all EU countries. The headline should be: "Apple forced to abide the law in EU countries".... since it wasn't until now. It's not something that just happened to "fall" on our laps here in EU countries just now... it's decade and an half old law.

    1. Re:Silly headline.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well Apple does not seem to care about non-american law in general, in the EU, every mobile device has to have a micro-USB-port (no, adapters do not count), but for some reason Apple get's away without one.

    2. Re:Silly headline.... by cbope · · Score: 2

      Where are my mod points. Oh wait... AC

      Anyway, this is 100% correct. Apple has been skirting EU law for some time, and there have been various lawsuits in some EU member countries against Apple for pulling these stunts.

      Now, there are teeth.

    3. Re:Silly headline.... by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      Firstly it was only a MOU not a directive so afaict it's only binding on those who signed it (which admittedly DOES include apple) and those signatories reserve the right to withdraw at any time....

      Further looking at the memor itself

      http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/sectors/rtte/files/chargers/chargers_mou_en.pdf

      "4.2.1 In order that compatibility of as many Mobile Phones as possible with a Common EPS may be enabled, if a manufacturer makes available an Adaptor from the Micro-USB connector of a Common EPS to a specific non-Micro-USB socket in the Mobile Phone, it shall constitute compliance to this article."

      So it seems adaptors like the one apple offers are fine.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    4. Re:Silly headline.... by burnetd · · Score: 1

      Apple 'get away with it' because adpators do count.

  7. Apple still weaselling out of it by pelorus · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This hasn't changed anything. What's the point of a warranty that lasts two years which covers defects that were present on delivery?
    (See http://www.apple.com/uk/legal/statutory-warranty/)

    Apple should be forced to stop weaselling and just give us what the law requires.

    -- An Apple Fanboi

    1. Re:Apple still weaselling out of it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What's the point of a warranty that lasts two years which covers defects that were present on delivery?

      "Defects present on delivery" IS what the law requires. However, the intended interpretation of this is that a product is defect if it cannot sustain two years of regular wear and tear without breaking. As such, bad soldering causing your screen to stop functioning after 19 months is considered a defect present at moment of purchase.

    2. Re:Apple still weaselling out of it by MartinSchou · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What's the point of a warranty that lasts two years which covers defects that were present on delivery?

      That IS what a warranty is. You seem to be mixing up insurance and warranty.

      Otherwise, what's to prevent me from breaking the display and claiming it should be covered by the warranty?

    3. Re:Apple still weaselling out of it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So when the hard drive dies in 18 months, is that a defect from the factory?

      That is the difference why people in the US think this is weird, a lot of warranty repairs here are probably for stuff people caused, like dropping the device. When best buy sells us the extended warranty they say 'this will cover anything, even if you caused it'. I think Apple Care was the same.

      And honestly, if there is a defect from the manufacturer, they could give you a lifetime warranty and it wont make a difference, it will be found in the first 30 days 99% of the time, after that, it probably isn't a manufacturer defect. These aren't cars. There are no 'moving parts' outside of a few fans and a hard drive.

    4. Re:Apple still weaselling out of it by BasilBrush · · Score: 2

      That *is* what the law requires. A warranty is to cover defects of workmanship or materials of the product as shipped. That means that if the product goes wrong within the warranty period, and it hasn't been mistreated or suffered accidental damage then it's deemed to have not been of sufficient quality when manufactured and repaired or replaced.

      Extended warranties sometimes go beyond that, such as Apple's own 1st year warranty or Applecare extended warranty. But they are not required by law.

    5. Re:Apple still weaselling out of it by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      it doesn't matter if the defect only manifests itself later - the thing is that the defect isn't because the consumer drilled it or something.

      of course.. haha.. apple will can claim that walking outside here and back is enough to break it..

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    6. Re:Apple still weaselling out of it by quacking+duck · · Score: 2

      And honestly, if there is a defect from the manufacturer, they could give you a lifetime warranty and it wont make a difference, it will be found in the first 30 days 99% of the time, after that, it probably isn't a manufacturer defect. These aren't cars. There are no 'moving parts' outside of a few fans and a hard drive.

      Several generations of white Macbooks released in 2006-2007 were prone to cracks in the casing, definitely a design/manufacturing defect. Apple would attempt repairs even outside the standard 1-year (in the US) warranty. It was even possible, after several repair attempts, that they replace it with the latest-generation Macbook.

      I myself got a free Macbook battery replacement 4 years after purchase. Granted it was bulging (a rarer but also-known defect) and they probably exchanged it free for safety/liability reasons.

      Acts like these are partly why my next laptop will still be from Apple.

    7. Re:Apple still weaselling out of it by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      There is a reasonable expectation that a hard drive will last longer than 18 months, when used according to its spec (eg the temperature is kept within the specified limits, and the device is not subjected to shocks exceeding those stated on the spec sheet, and not subjected to water etc)...

      Indeed it is not uncommon for hard drives to last for years, even when subjected to harsh conditions. I had some scsi drives that ran for over 10 years in a server that was badly overheating, and still worked when they were last used. But i would not expect a warranty to cover those drives given the conditions they were used in (and modern drives have the ability to record the temperature they were operating at).

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    8. Re:Apple still weaselling out of it by icebraining · · Score: 1

      There are no 'moving parts' outside of a few fans and a hard drive.

      Actually, there are. Components like the CPU and GPU expand and contract a lot due to the thermal differences between on and off. That can be enough to break solder joints after a few months.

    9. Re:Apple still weaselling out of it by squizzar · · Score: 1

      And ROHS-compliant lead free solder is more brittle than the older lead containing stuff, so this has become more of a problem. If I remember correctly Apple are paying dividends on their stock because they have more money than they can use. If they have devices that fail due to thermal cycling in two years of use then perhaps they should spend some of it on R&D to solve these problems.

    10. Re:Apple still weaselling out of it by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      Free for you, maybe, but Apple had to pay for that laptop out of their meager cash holdings, you insensitive clod.

    11. Re:Apple still weaselling out of it by ovande · · Score: 1

      Well, this so true. From what i know the 11 consumer organisations have not yet received an official response from Apple to the cease and desist letter they sent some weeks ago. Somes sites are misinterpreting the changes Apple recently made. These changes are so deeply buried on their site ( except for Italian site) buyers never see these changes. It's quite clear that the consumer organistaions are not going to accept this.

    12. Re:Apple still weaselling out of it by cerberusss · · Score: 1

      Several generations of white Macbooks released in 2006-2007 were prone to cracks in the casing, definitely a design/manufacturing defect. Apple would attempt repairs even outside the standard 1-year (in the US) warranty.

      Perhaps for you, but mine showed hairline fractures along the bottom and fan outlets, and I definitely did not get a replacement (N/W European country), even when it was within the one-year guarantee. The guy said that when it was visible on top, or on the keyboard, things would be different.

      --
      8 of 13 people found this answer helpful. Did you?
  8. This is only about how Apple advertises Apple Care by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There has always been a two year warranty in the EU. And Apple has honored that. The problem is that they advertised their Apple Care Protection Plan as giving customers 3 years warranty instead of 1 year (= Apple warranty) without mentioning that EU consumer laws give consumers a 2 year warranty.

    The caveat with the EU warranty is that (at least in Germany) after the first 6 months, the burden of proof that the problem is due to a pre-existing manufacturing error is on the consumer. So unless the cause for the problem is crystal-clear (e.g. lots and lots of devices exhibit the problem, or it's something that could not fail due to other causes), getting a vendor to honor the warranty after 6 months is difficult.

  9. Planned Obsolescence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Will The Battery Last That Long?

    1. Re:Planned Obsolescence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If this is not USER SERVICABLE then it is not a CONSUMABLE and thus has to be covered under the warranty :)

      This is where closed box design backfires in apple's face :)

      we had a car gearbox that failed after 1 year, of the warranty, there is also the clause that it must be up to the task at hand and last a REASONABLE amount of time, needless to say we got a free gearbox replaced.

      EVEN OUTSIDE WARRANTY. EU laws are very protective for very good reason.

    2. Re:Planned Obsolescence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Batteries are considered wear parts and not covered for the full 2 years. I don't know if the law specifies the warranty period for wear parts but 6 months seems to be standard for batteries.

    3. Re:Planned Obsolescence by Kalriath · · Score: 1

      Unless you can't replace the damn thing yourself, then it gets considered part and parcel of the device.

      --
      For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
  10. Used this with Dell the other day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My Dads laptop started over heating and turning itself off - even then just in the BIOS screen. Took it apart, very clean, no dust blocking anything. Unfortunately it was 14 months since he'd bought it taking it 2 months outside Dells warranty.

    I called them, gave the details and they offered an extended warranty for £70 and that they would fix it for that price. I declined, mentioned the EU 2 year warranty law and they arranged immediately to pick it up and repair it for free.

    It annoys me that you have to point this out to manufacturers still - good on the EU for making an example of Apple, but any business caught not honouring this law should face a fairly stiff fine.

    1. Re:Used this with Dell the other day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To be fair Apple and Dell are both US based companies. Expecting the people manning the phones to know about every consumer protection law worldwide is a bit unreasonable, and yes expecting a US company to know EU law is exactly the same as say: expecting a German company to know Ecuadorian law.

    2. Re:Used this with Dell the other day by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Sounds like they attempted to defraud you...
      They should have immediately offered to fix it for free, not try to trick you into buying an extended warranty that you didn't need. Even if they tried to send you an extended warranty, they should not have claimed that this was required in order for them to repair the current defect.

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    3. Re:Used this with Dell the other day by dave420 · · Score: 1

      When you call Dell you don't get put through to the US. The phone staff knows exactly what they're allowed and not allowed to do in the jurisdiction from where the customer is calling. A German manning an Ecuadorian support line would know Ecuadorian law, as that's their fucking job.

  11. Nothing has changed : Apple just explains it by AwaxSlashdot · · Score: 3, Informative

    Apple was forced by EU to be more forthcoming about warranty policies.

    Apple provided warranty, as a MANUFACTURER, is limited to 1 year and Apple pushed it warranty extension for 2 to 3 years (2 years for iOS devices, 3 years for Macs). It covers a range of issues that can appear after the sell.

    EU wasn't really happy with this because EU law mandates a 2 years warranty by the SELLER, for issue existing before the sell. EU thought that Apple was forcing clients to get a warranty extension even if they were entitled to a 2 year coverage (similar but not exactly identical).

    Now Apple clearly states this distinction.

    So if you bought your Apple product in another shop, after 1 year, you need to get in contact with that shop, that will contact Apple to identify the issue and see if this is linked to a preexisting problem or link to your usage. In the later case, your "seller provided" warranty won't help you.

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    1. Re:Nothing has changed : Apple just explains it by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Having a 1 year warranty on a phone made sense back when mobile contracts typically lasted 1 year...
      But now that mobile contracts are typically 2 years, it should be a legal requirement that any warranty last for at least as long as the contract terms if not longer.

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    2. Re:Nothing has changed : Apple just explains it by gnasher719 · · Score: 1

      Having a 1 year warranty on a phone made sense back when mobile contracts typically lasted 1 year...
      But now that mobile contracts are typically 2 years, it should be a legal requirement that any warranty last for at least as long as the contract terms if not longer.

      In the UK, products have to last for "a reasonable amount of time", with "reasonable" depending on the product and circumstances. If a phone company sells a phone together with a contract, then I would say it is "reasonable" that the phone should work for at least the time of the contract. No need for a specific requirement. If you bought an iPhone from a phone company with a five year contract, then you can reasonably expect it to last five years, and they should fix faults for five years. (Apple may think different, but then it isn't their problem. They wouldn't have to pay for repairs).

  12. Garbage in, garbage out... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The fact that they just don't make the 2 year warranty universal ought to be proof that their products are crap, pure and simple. If something as mechanical and abused (through normal use) as a hard drive can be given a 5 year warranty, why can't something with no moving parts be given a 2 year warranty? I'll tell you why, it's defective by design. They want it to break so you buy new over and over again.

  13. Re:This does not seem fair by laurensv · · Score: 5, Informative

    It is a retailer warranty. It only applies as Apple sells something directly to consumers.
    In other cases, other retailers have to get Apple to fix the stuff, but Apple isn't directly liable.

  14. Re:This is only about how Apple advertises Apple C by SJHillman · · Score: 1

    To be fair, with electronics (particularly those with no moving parts), if it doesn't fail within six months of normal use it's much less likely to be a manufacturer defect. It's one of the primary ideas behind giving computers a "burn-in" period before going into production. From personal experience, failures after the first few months are at least partially due to user error - particularly with mobile devices. Not saying it's always the case, just a healthy majority of them.

  15. Re:This is just stupid by SJHillman · · Score: 2

    I always assumed iProducts were forged at Mount Doom. Does this mean I don't need to keep simply walking into Cupertino to recycle my iProducts?

  16. Apple Is NOT Giving A 2 Year Warranty by rsmith-mac · · Score: 3, Informative

    As usual, TFS and TFA got it all wrong.

    As so clearly painted out on Apple's website, there are two factors in play.

    1. Apple's 1 year warranty
    2. EU Consumer Law regarding to product quality at the time of sale

    Apple's warranty continues to stand at 1 year. If anything short of intentional damage happens in that one year, you get full Apple tech support.

    EU Consumer Law meanwhile covers a 2 year period, and as the weaker program takes effect during the second year of ownership. Pay attention here, this is important: if the buyer can prove the product was defective when it was sold, then and only then can they take the product to the seller (who is not necessarily Apple) for coverage. This is not the same as a 2 year warranty as you do not get any direct support from Apple - no phone support, no Apple Store, no authorized service providers; you get what the seller can provide, unless that seller is Apple. And even then Apple will not give the buyer the same treatment as a full warranty, and the burden of proof is on the buyer to prove that the product was defective at the time of sale.

    For a real warranty over 1 year you still need to purchase an AppleCare plan. That gets you full and direct Apple support, and more importantly there is no burden of proof on the buyer to prove that the product was defective at the time of sale.

    1. Re:Apple Is NOT Giving A 2 Year Warranty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      For a real warranty over 1 year you still need to purchase an AppleCare plan. That gets you full and direct Apple support, and more importantly there is no burden of proof on the buyer to prove that the product was defective at the time of sale.

      The burden of proof is on the seller for the first 6 months, and on the buyer afterwards. Still "burden of proof" doesn't mean it's required to provide evidence of a production defect. Most judges will take the absence of evidence of abuse on the device as proof enough that the issue is due to a production defect. After all either it's not working correctly due to a production defect, or is not working correctly due to damage and damage is easy to demonstrate.

      Note that components are supposed to last 2 years. If they break sooner under normal usage they still fall under the "production defect" category even if they were working correctly at the time of delivery.

    2. Re:Apple Is NOT Giving A 2 Year Warranty by ericloewe · · Score: 2

      The legalese sounds horrible but you don't have to prove anything beyond the fact that the product only saw regular use.

    3. Re:Apple Is NOT Giving A 2 Year Warranty by Friggo · · Score: 1

      For a real warranty over 1 year you still need to purchase an AppleCare plan. That gets you full and direct Apple support, and more importantly there is no burden of proof on the buyer to prove that the product was defective at the time of sale.

      The burden of proof is on the seller for the first 6 months,

      The depends on your country. In Sweden we have the first year where the seller needs to prove that the defect was not there at time of sale, and then the burden of proof shift to the buyer for year 2.
      I practice this usually means in Sweden that for stuff that costs less than 1500SEK (about $200) they just send you a replacement if you say it was broken in the first year since it would cost more to test it than send you a new one.

    4. Re:Apple Is NOT Giving A 2 Year Warranty by Tadu · · Score: 1

      Apple's 1 year warranty

      EU Consumer Law regarding to product quality at the time of sale

      Call the first "warranty" (as in: a promise the manufacturer opted to make), and the second "defect liability" (as in: the seller must not sell defective goods). Unfortunately, these two concepts ("Garantie" and "Gewährleistung") happen to both be called warranty in English, clouding the issue somewhat...

  17. afaik they only clarified it by unami · · Score: 3, Informative

    everything i buy here in europe here has this two-year seller's warranty. and always had. apple didn't sell things with one year warranty because they couldn't do it - even if it was stated otherwise on their warranty card - it was alway protected under the two year seller's warranty. and this warranty has always been different from the manufacturers warranty.

  18. Re:This is just stupid by Overzeetop · · Score: 2

    One doesn't simply walk into one infinite loop in Cupertino.

    --
    Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
  19. Misleading title by Dunbal · · Score: 1

    How about "Apple has to comply with the laws of the countries they do business in"?

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  20. IT's zero cost to apple. by Lumpy · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Honestly, if apple was to say, "Oh ok, in fact world wide 2 year warranty" they would have created a gigantic PR buzz that would have hurt everyone else at ZERO cost to them.

    Honestly, the failure rate difference between 1 year and 2 years cant be big enough to cost them anything. It's almost a Zero cost to them with gigantic gains in PR if they embraced it.

    Plus it would give all their competitors gigantic headaches.

    --
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    1. Re:IT's zero cost to apple. by BasilBrush · · Score: 0

      Honestly, the failure rate difference between 1 year and 2 years cant be big enough to cost them anything. It's almost a Zero cost to them with gigantic gains in PR if they embraced it.

      Plus it would give all their competitors gigantic headaches.

      How can it be zero cost to Apple but a gigantic headache to everyone else?

    2. Re:IT's zero cost to apple. by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      Because, they now have to do what apple does, and start a big PR spread about it. Apple already has the press over it, so one press release later it's all over the news.

      Nokia doing this will go un noticed so they have to buy advertising all over, to say, "Ohh we are copying what apple is doing!"

      Makes it a pain, causes CEO's to throw chairs.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  21. Both article and summary misleading by zerojoker · · Score: 2, Informative

    Since there seems to be much confusion, I'd like to add a few points to this article. There are two notions of warranty in Europe.

    1.) A mandatory warranty that all _sellers_ of goods have to give by law, which is valid for two years. This covers only problems that existed prior to the purchase. So for example, if some part breaks simple to being worn out, the _seller_ has no obligation to cover it. If a problem occurs within the first six month after purchase, it is assumed by law that the problem existed prior to the purchase. The burden of proof that the problem did not exist prior to the purchase is up to the _seller_. In practice, such proof is difficult, and thus _seller_ will usually handle the problem. After six month up to two years, the burden of proof is up to the buyer. Since again, this is almost impossible to do without an expensive expertise, this effectively limits this warranty up to six month. Note that this is an issue between the _seller_ and the _buyer_, even though if a defect occurs and the seller is not the manufacturer, say the seller is amazon, the seller when faced with a defective product will claim the same warranty to the manufacturer. Some might have other agreements with the manufacturer.

    2.) Almost all manufacturers give on top a voluntary warranty to the customer of two years. This warranty is completely voluntary, and the customer has no real legal means to enforce it.

    What happened here is that Apple is one of the very few manufacturers who only give voluntary warranty of one year. They (essentially the apple store) tried to sell additional warranties for up to three years (Apple Care), but without making it clear, that the buyer can anyway claim warranty against the seller of goods for up to two years (even though, this is hardly enforceable after six month, unless it is a problem so widespread that it would, say, lead to a class-action lawsuit in the US). The judges asked Apple to make this more explicit. Instead, Apple finally went ahead and introduced voluntary warranty conditions that are similar to any other manufacturer in Europe.

    1. Re:Both article and summary misleading by ericloewe · · Score: 1

      Any half-decent manufacturer will replace a broken product within two years with few to no questions asked (assuming the product wasn't subjected to anything out of the ordinary, of course).

    2. Re:Both article and summary misleading by Skapare · · Score: 1

      Well, that kinda rules out Apple.

      --
      now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
    3. Re:Both article and summary misleading by makomk · · Score: 1

      A mandatory warranty that all _sellers_ of goods have to give by law, which is valid for two years. This covers only problems that existed prior to the purchase. So for example, if some part breaks simple to being worn out, the _seller_ has no obligation to cover it.

      That's not actually true. It also covers failures due to the goods not being of satisfactory quality or manufacture, where the definition of "satisfactory" depends on the nature and cost of the goods and any statements made by the manufacturer. So if some part in your expensive Macbook breaks due to wearing out after just over a year and you as a customer quite reasonably expected - based on Apple's carefully cultivated image of quality - that it would be designed with parts that lasted a little longer, the seller of the goods would still be on the hook for it.

    4. Re:Both article and summary misleading by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They (essentially the apple store) tried to sell additional warranties for up to three years (Apple Care), but without making it clear,

      Which is not an "oversight". The EU is a pretty damn big market, with lots of things that Apple has to tailor product to, like languages on materials.

      Not having an extended warranty on sale that reflected the EU-wide two-year warranty is deliberately misleading.

      Here's the appropriate remedy -- add up the one year extended warranty retail cost for every Apple product sold in the EU, and fine the fuckers for that amount. Assholes will be fired, and nobody will try that particular bullshit again.

  22. Next step by DrXym · · Score: 0

    Force Apple (and an increasing number of other manufacturers) to stop sealing batteries into their devices and allow users to service them.

  23. Swings and Roundabouts by petes_PoV · · Score: 5, Funny

    The EU has consumer protection laws, the USA has class action lawsuits and guns. It probably balances out in all but bodycount.

    --
    politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
    1. Re:Swings and Roundabouts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are not enough mod points on all of Slashdot to represent my appreciation of this comment!

    2. Re:Swings and Roundabouts by ericloewe · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Too bad the US allows companies to force you into no-sue contracts (like Sony and EA have done).

    3. Re:Swings and Roundabouts by incer · · Score: 1

      But they don't have no-shoot contracts!

    4. Re:Swings and Roundabouts by Stides · · Score: 0

      You're not forced into these contracts. No one is forcing you to buy their product.

    5. Re:Swings and Roundabouts by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      In other words, you still have a choice because you can buy yourself a farm in Amish country. That's about what it will take to completely avoid dealing with corporations that engage in the kind of rights-stripping nonsense we're talking about here.

      --
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    6. Re:Swings and Roundabouts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "No sue" contracts don't mean shit. Anything can be renegotiated at any time. You think that divorce/custody/whatever agreement is final and permanent? Ha!

      Hell, you could probably sue them for making you sign an illegal contract to use their products.

      The only thing those contracts do is scare off the plebes like yourself that don't understand the legal system.

    7. Re:Swings and Roundabouts by Eirenarch · · Score: 1

      Yes, only Amish don't own PS3.

    8. Re:Swings and Roundabouts by DreadPiratePizz · · Score: 1, Insightful

      For many other sates, but at least for california, those no sue clauses are unenforceable and void precisely because they are not legal.

    9. Re:Swings and Roundabouts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In other words, you still have a choice because you can buy yourself a farm in Amish country. That's about what it will take to completely avoid dealing with corporations that engage in the kind of rights-stripping nonsense we're talking about here.

      So, your entire range of thinking on this is "buy all ( ALL! ) overproduced, overpriced, mainstream AAA video games or you may as well just be Amish because that's all you're worth you backwards Luddite". Understood.

    10. Re:Swings and Roundabouts by ericloewe · · Score: 1

      Really? It's the first time I hear that some US states ban those clauses...

    11. Re:Swings and Roundabouts by compro01 · · Score: 2

      For many other sates, but at least for california, those no sue clauses are unenforceable and void precisely because they are not legal.

      Nope. The supreme court ruled last year in AT&T Mobility v. Concepcion that the Federal Arbitration Act preempts any state laws to that effect and thus they can force you into their choice of arbitration providers.

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    12. Re:Swings and Roundabouts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don’t forget Microsoft in that sordid little group.

    13. Re:Swings and Roundabouts by StikyPad · · Score: 2
    14. Re:Swings and Roundabouts by tophermeyer · · Score: 1

      So what's your point?

      Having the freedom to not be forced into contracts doesn't grant you a magical right to force companies to offer the exact products and services that you want. If you don't like the terms of a contract, don't sign it. But you can't reasonably expect businesses to cater to your specific whims so that you can buy a subsidized cell phone.

    15. Re:Swings and Roundabouts by formfeed · · Score: 1

      You're not forced into these contracts. No one is forcing you to buy their product.

      Don't like that arbitration clause in your DSL contract? No one is forcing you to use the internet.
      Don't like all the crap in credit card contracts? No one is forcing you to use credit cards.
      Don't like the security theater at the airports and the secret no-fly lists? No one is forcing you to fly anywhere.
      Don't like censored and white washed social media? No one is forcing you to go to these places.
      Getting kicked out of the mall for wearing the wrong T-Shirt? No one is forcing you to go to any of the stores there.
      Don't like the new right-to-work legislation? No one is forcing you to ask for higher wages.
      Don't like employers spying on your private life? No one is forcing you to work for your living.

      Or you could stop being a stool and stop criticizing other countries for having better protections of individuals.

  24. Re:This does not seem fair by ericloewe · · Score: 1

    The retailer is responsible for taking care of the repair/replacement. That means Joe consumer deals with the retailer, which in turn deals with Apple.

    There are comapnies that take care of warranties directly, however, they're the minority. I can think of Corsair and Microsoft (Xbox 360 only).

  25. Re:This does not seem fair by gl4ss · · Score: 2

    retailer has everything to do with being responsible to the consumers they retail to. some chains in eu are trying to sell'n'dump-responsibilities but it's not really legit over here(one example is that doesn't matter what smartphone you buy in finland, there's 90% possibility that all warranty issues are handled by one company... it sucks, as the consumer shouldn't have to send his device to a 3rd party company to have it fixed when the retailer is actually responsible for the product they sold).

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  26. The submitter is an idiot by gnasher719 · · Score: 1, Redundant

    Not only an idiot, but a bloody f***ing stupid idiot of the highest magnitude.

    Apple hasn't given in to any pressure, and Apple hasn't made any changes whatsoever. What Apple has done is presenting on a website what rights Apple customers have towards the seller of a product (whoever is the seller, and whoever makes the product), what rights Apple as the manufacturer voluntarily gives to buyers of Apple products (One year. ONE year. Not TWO years you bloody idiot submitter), and what rights Apple gives you if you pay for AppleCare.

  27. Nothing new.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is nothing new? In Australia apple was forced to do this for a while......

  28. why i dont buy apple's products by FudRucker · · Score: 1

    i am not saying they made a bad product, but they charge way too much for their products, i dont buy electronics to make a fashion statement, i buy an electronic product because it has a functionality that suits a purpose, and i find better value in alternatives to apple's products

    --
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    1. Re:why i dont buy apple's products by Skapare · · Score: 1

      i am not saying they made a bad product, but they charge way too much for their products, i dont buy electronics to make a fashion statement, i buy an electronic product because it has a functionality that suits a purpose, and i find better value in alternatives to apple's products

      People who buy from Apple ARE making a fashion statement. The rest of us buys something else that works.

      --
      now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
  29. Re:This does not seem fair by arth1 · · Score: 5, Informative

    It is a retailer warranty. It only applies as Apple sells something directly to consumers.
    In other cases, other retailers have to get Apple to fix the stuff, but Apple isn't directly liable.

    No, it's a manufacturer warranty, but generally handled by the retailer, who acts as a go-between for the customer and manufacturer.
    I.e. if your iGizmo breaks down, you take it to the retailer, who sends it to Apple, who fixes it under warranty. This is in the interest of the consumer, who has a single point of contact. The manufacturer (or, rather, brand name holder) is still the liable part.

    This in contrast to US conditions, where the customer usually has to contact the manufacturer directly.

    In addition to the mandatory warranty, the purchaser also has reclamation rights not limited to a fixed term, but the reasonably expected lifetime of a product. For consumer electronics, this is generally interpreted to be in the ballpark of the warranty or shorter, but if you buy, say, house siding that cracks after ten years, or a water heater that that breaks down after four years, you probably have a good case for getting it fixed by the manufacturer.
    A big difference between that and regular warranty is that for regular warranty, the manufacturer is liable by default and has to show that the customer misused the product to get out of it, while for the reclamation rights, the customer has the burden of evidence.
    Still, it is useful, and while I lived in Europe, I exercised this right a couple of times (broken washer/dryer, guitar neck that warped).

  30. Alternative titles by ledow · · Score: 2

    An alternative title would be:

    "Apple made to comply with existing laws that are quite reasonable, everyone else complies with and which aid the consumer."

    So I don't really see what the fuss is about. If you're building expensive devices and putting them into people's hands, expecting them to last two years isn't a hardship, unless your business is BUILT upon their obsolescence. In which case, this is a win for the consumer is stopping you doing things like that.

    "Apple FORCED to make devices that last more than a year on average". Gosh. The horror.

    And every other electronics manufacturer trading in the EU has to do the same and has done for a while now. Hell, I can get CARS with a five year warranty, and there's no end of things that could go wrong on them and it costs the manufacturer 10 times as much if they do go wrong or they have a design flaw.

    "Apple THREATENED WITH LAWSUIT if they don't give consumers a good deal"

    Well.... bloody good job!

    1. Re:Alternative titles by Skapare · · Score: 1

      It should be about CONSUMER CHOICE. But the consumer cannot make a proper choice without knowing whether or not the product is defective. If Apple makes things in a way that hide their defects, then they either need to disclose UP FRONT that the device is defective, OR sell it with a 2 year warranty ... in every country.

      --
      now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
    2. Re:Alternative titles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or perhaps:

      "Apple forced to clarify the length of the warranty that they already offered."

      The issue here is nothing to do with whether Apple (as a retailer) provided a 2 year warranty in the EU, because they did. The problem is that they only referred to the 1 year (as a manufacturer) warranty when trying to sell Applecare.

      Oddly enough, I don't see many complaints about a certain UK department store, who used to use their 2 year retailer warranty as a selling point, when in fact it was legally required (they did this at least up to 2004, when the relevant directive is from 1999).

    3. Re:Alternative titles by Windwraith · · Score: 1

      I think the news, more than "Apple complies with the law" is more like "Apple just started to comply with the law". Which considering their age as manufacturers, it's horribly high.

      It's like if a serial killer just promised to stop killing people. He shouldn't have begun on the first place.

  31. At least in Holland the case is this by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 1

    IF Apple had REALLY refused to honor the 2 year minimum warranty (devices are supposed to work for their expected life) then IF the customer knew his rights, he would simply have demanded his rights and Apple would have lost the case on every level.

    The PSP had a very bad screen and Sony tried to make claims that cheap devices could have a number of defective sub-pixels. In Holland, the consumer program Kassa ("Cash register but also what we say when Americans say "Caching") arranged that Sony had to replace them. With even ONE dead sub-pixel. Mine had already been replaced by that time however since I simply demanded my right in the store and made it bloody clear that I would not leave before I got it.

    You got to remember that EU citizens on the whole are not as enamored with big businesses as Americans.

    Apple can try what it wants but if anyone makes a simple complaint, Apple is going to lose. Even this new thing is meaningless. In Europe, you got two years warranty at least. Take Apple to court, you will win since the law leaves no room for interpretation. At least none that Apple would like. A shorter warranty is allowed, for devices so cheap and crap that nobody could reasonably expect two years of use before it breaks.

    --

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    1. Re:At least in Holland the case is this by BlackCreek · · Score: 2

      > Apple can try what it wants but if anyone makes a simple complaint, Apple is going to lose. Even this new thing is meaningless. In Europe, you got two years warranty at least. Take Apple to court, you will win since the law leaves no room for interpretation.

      Some people prefer not having to take a seller to court in order to have the law honored. Most people do not have the time nor the inclination to bring a random seller to court. So this matters because it settles the record straight for all consumers without any of them having to bother much (other than paying for the taxes that bring both the law and its enforcement).

      Perhaps if you are a lawyer or has lawyers as close friends of family, "taking someone to court" is going to be easy, but it sure as hell not as trivial as "coming back to the shop where product was bought and handling in (without any arguing) for repair".

    2. Re:At least in Holland the case is this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have to know the applicable law to understand the issue. In the EU, all products sold to consumers must come with a two year warranty that covers defects which are by design or manufacturing flaw. During the first 6 months of those 2 years, the merchant has to prove that it wasn't a design or manufacturing flaw if he wants to reject the warranty claim. After that, the merchant can simply say that it wasn't a design or manufacturing flaw and if the consumer can't prove that it was, then the claim is rejected. The mandatory warranty covers materials, labor and shipping.

      A merchant can not avoid the mandatory warranty, but due to the burden of proof after 6 months, most consumers don't actually stand a chance unless there is a really obvious design flaw. The problem with Apple was that they marketed extended warranties without clearly informing consumers about the mandatory warranty coverage. Apple would be foolish to reject claims under the mandatory warranty and to my knowledge they haven't. In practice, a merchant who doesn't weasel out of a voluntary one year warranty probably has better service than a merchant who regularly challenges warranty claims after the 6 months have passed.

      TL;DR: This is about truth in advertising, not about warranty claim rejections.

  32. Re:This is just stupid by EzInKy · · Score: 1

    The more expensive Apple products become, the fewer people who can afford them will be. This isn't price fixing, it's enabling consumers to compare Apples to Apples and oranges to oranges. And, by the way, a warranty is a warranty and a price is a price. Apples and oranges.

    --
    Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
  33. Re:Does it really matter? by ledow · · Score: 2

    Only if you're the sort of idiot that thinks you should throw something away because something new has come out, or thinks that they shouldn't resell devices they aren't using (resale value depends on the quality of the initial build, don't forget) or, worse, thinks that 1 year is a long time for a commercial product costing more than my car to last.

    The "annual upgrade cycle" is the realm of the idiot. It means that no device you buy has EVER had more than a year or so of testing, or expected to last more than a year. Hell, I nearly peed myself when I heard about Apple STILL not being able to get clock-changes correct throughout Europe. I think this the first year they've ever managed it, after several highly-public gaffes in previous years.

    When I pay for a product, I expect it to be built to a certain quality - not be part of an enforced obsolescence scheme. If you want to buy a product that somehow magically degrades after a year (either because something new has come out or because the manufacturing was diabolical), you do that. Personally, I know that the chip inside the machine will run at the same speed next year as it does this year AND that every piece of electrical/electronic equipment I own has lasted at least 2 years (and some up to 20!).

  34. Re:This does not seem fair by BorgDrone · · Score: 1

    How is this a screw you ? All retailers were already required to offer 2 years warranty, if you buy directly from Apple they are the retailer and thus required to provide the warranty. It was just Apple not complying with the law, which has now been corrected.

    If you buy at a retailer, you pay more than the retailer pays Apple, part of that difference is the warranty the retailer is supposed to provide. If you pay full price to Apple the same applies.

  35. Re:This does not seem fair by BorgDrone · · Score: 5, Informative

    No, it's a manufacturer warranty, but generally handled by the retailer, who acts as a go-between for the customer and manufacturer.

    Not really. I as the consumer enter a contract with the retailer. I pay them money and they provide me with a product, they are responsible for delivering a decent product and therefore have to give a warranty. Where they got the product from and how they provide the warranty is none of my concern, I didn't enter a contract with the manufacturer, as far as I know they don't exist.

  36. Re:I hope... by TFAFalcon · · Score: 2

    If Apple though increasing prices would get them more money, then they would already have raised them.

  37. Re:This does not seem fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    i think you just proved his point 100%. the retailer acts as a go-between. the manufacturer doesn't exist TO YOU. but they do exist. and they are the one that provides the warranty. the retailer simply sends it to the manufacturer. its not like walmart is going to do the repairs on your iphone themselves.... they send it to apple for repair/replacement.

  38. It's not a warranty by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1
    All Apple has done is clarify consumer's rights wrt to defects that exist at time of purchase. Apple is not saying they'll fix any problems that arise as they would with Applecare, they're saying if a defect is present when you buy an item that the seller is responsible for fixing it. Unlike Apple's warranty, you don't get worldwide coverage no matter where you bought it, nor is Apple obligated to fix it if you take it to an Apple store but bought it elsewhere.

    So while it is nice to have such consumer protection laws (although you pay for them in prices) it's not like Apple is all of a sudden offering 2 year warranty in the EU.

    --
    I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
  39. UK is the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    UK does not honour 2 year EU warranties on their electronics, The UK companies only do 1 year mostly in BREACH of EU directives.

    This is why I buy electronics from other EU member states and ship them in. 2 year warranties.

    The UK government needs to be FINED huge for this. They are the problem.

    1. Re:UK is the problem by Ash-Fox · · Score: 1

      The UK government needs to be FINED huge for this. They are the problem.

      I vote they kick the UK out instead. Then the UK wouldn't have such a horrible dip in tax money due to paying EU membership fees as well as uncontrolled immigration issues and resolve problems like the common fisheries policy.

      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
  40. Re:This does not seem fair by rioki · · Score: 2

    Actually you both are right, to a certain degree. You have a contractual relationship with the retailer, the retailer is obliged to give you a warranty. But then the retailer is in a contractual relationship with the manufacturer (sometimes by multiple levels of indirection) and part of the deal is that they service this warranty. But that is up to the retailer and the manufacturer to agree upon. They can, for example agree to lower the price and drop the repair service; they often do that on small things, where they just give you a new item when the original broke.

  41. Re:This does not seem fair by dkf · · Score: 3, Informative

    i think you just proved his point 100%. the retailer acts as a go-between. the manufacturer doesn't exist TO YOU. but they do exist. and they are the one that provides the warranty

    While they may well be involved in the implementation of the service that makes the warranty work, the retailer provides the warranty (except in the UK if you've paid by credit card, in which case it is the credit card company that does it formally). It's their responsibility in law to get things fixed for you, and that can't be passed on to anyone else. Of course, the retailer may well just pass the faulty item along to the maker for fixing, but if the maker stalls them or messes about then it's the retailer who has to make you good. They sometimes need reminding of this, but it rarely reaches court these days as the laws in the area are very strict and have to be to avoid trouble from slimy retailers and manufacturers; this area is very well tested in other areas of consumer products, and electronics firms are by-and-large relatively honest. (That's a reflection on how bad some other market sectors have been in the past, really.)

    --
    "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
  42. Odd... by JustAnotherIdiot · · Score: 1

    Why would the EU require them to have a warranty longer than their lifespan?
    Apple pumps out a new version, what, every month?

    --
    What do I know, I'm just an idiot, right?
    1. Re:Odd... by Skapare · · Score: 1

      Maybe Europe just won't get as many versions in the future, now.

      BTW, I do support the notion of requiring ALL manufacturers to offer a full standardized warranty, although I think it should be 3 years. Still, 2 years is adequate. First we need to get rid of almost all the Republicans and half the Democrats and then maybe we can improve this USA.

      --
      now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
    2. Re:Odd... by JustAnotherIdiot · · Score: 1

      BTW, I do support the notion of requiring ALL manufacturers to offer a full standardized warranty, although I think it should be 3 years.

      Yeah, I agree. If you're going to put a product on the market, have some damn confidence in it.
      If you don't have confidence in your product, don't ship it out until you do.

      First we need to get rid of almost all the Republicans and half the Democrats and then maybe we can improve this USA

      Nah, we need to get rid of /all/ politicians (along with changing the old-as-dirt broken system), one side of thieves isn't any better than the other.

      --
      What do I know, I'm just an idiot, right?
  43. Re:This is just stupid by icebraining · · Score: 1

    Markets don't work like that. Companies set their prices based on what makes them more profit, not the cost. If they could've raised the price without hurting their income, they already would've.

  44. Re:This is only about how Apple advertises Apple C by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I didn't have many devices which broke between month 6 and month 24 but it was never a hassle to have the vendor or manufacturer honor the warranty. It is called customer service.

  45. Re:This does not seem fair by Joce640k · · Score: 2

    In Europe?

    Warranties on *all* electrical goods in Europe are two years by law. Apple isn't being singled out here.

    Here in Spain (YMMV): After a short "DOA" period from the day you bought it (maybe a couple of weeks), pretty much all warranties are dealt with directly by the manufacturer. When things go wrong you call the number on the warranty card in the box.

    The last couple of things that failed on me (Samsung monitor, Benq DVD burner) I called them and they sent a guy right to my door with a replacement. No store was involved.

    --
    No sig today...
  46. Re:This does not seem fair by Wattos · · Score: 1

    please ignore my post. I misread the article and thought that apple would only offer the 2 year warranty when bought directrly from the apple website or apple stores. I read "elsewhere" as non-apple stores in the EU

  47. US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Would be nice if cell phone companies were forced to warranty their products for the life of said contract you sign with them

    1. Re:US by Skapare · · Score: 1

      I just bought a no-contract unlocked phone, you insensitive clod.

      --
      now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
  48. EU mandating higher prices by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    By this action, the EU is just mandating higher prices for Apple products. They'll have to build-in the cost of the extended warranty.

    By meddling like this, the EU can do for the price of smart phones what they've already done for the price of gasoline in Europe.

    1. Re:EU mandating higher prices by Windwraith · · Score: 1

      The 2-years requisite existed for at least a decade, it's not new. Apple was not complying with the law until forced. For the rest of the world that usually means breaking the law.

      Either way, smartphones, specially Apple's smartphones, are already quite expensive. Besides, doesn't Apple go with the promise of "better quality"? I assumed that was why the premium price.

  49. Re:This does not seem fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've never heard of a reseller providing warranty, that's the manufacturer. Resellers claim warranties for you towards the manufacturer, but are never directly responsible for it. However, they are responsible with regards to local laws.

    Captcha: limited - Funny.

  50. Re:This does not seem fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Apparently you don't understand EU law. For instance in the Czech Republic, which implemented the EU regulations in question, the manufacturer is not obligated to provide the customer with jack diddly-squat. The customer has a contractual relationship with the retailer, and it is the retailer who is liable for all warranty repairs. He may at his own discretion: 1) fix the defect himself, 2) send the item to the manufacturer or to its designated representatives, or 3) replace the item. Now in cases where Apple also acts as the retailer, then they are liable. But for those purchasing from other retailers, either internet or brick-and-mortar shops, it is the retailer that is liable for all warranty claims.

  51. Re:Does it really matter? by Skapare · · Score: 1

    Quality? But these are made in China under slave labor. This is not some EU or USA product.

    --
    now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
  52. The fall of apple has amazing acceleration by qwp · · Score: 0

    Every day I keep seeing more and more apple products cracked, shattered, outdated, unsupported and useless. The company who is famous for their support and quality is oddly now unsupportive and producing low quality products. I think the finance guru's have infiltrated the ranks of what was once a excellent budding technology company. A great example of this is the proprietary lock-in technology death is facetime. While facetime is just google video chat, the two systems do not integrate. Ultimately sealing Skype's dominance as a unifier in the world of video chat. This position is a direct failure to lead a market with innovation and instead strangles an emerging market with restrictions. iMessage is another great example of apple's failure as a leader. That said, Andriod is a lost puppy, sony shoots their customers repeatedly, Nokia still can't find their white flags to make friends, RIM way up in canada just heard about a guy named Obama and Microsoft can't figure out which company to buy. I guess I see why Apple is the market leader, all it takes is to beat out the rest....

  53. Standing by tepples · · Score: 2

    That doesn't stop us non-Apple users from bringing suit against Apple

    In that case, how are you going to prove standing?

    1. Re:Standing by Khyber · · Score: 1

      Standing isn't a major prerequisite.

      Same way I took Electronic Arts' ass out over Spore.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    2. Re:Standing by sonicmerlin · · Score: 2

      Is there a term for the psychological condition of being a pathological liar?

    3. Re:Standing by Khyber · · Score: 1

      Umm, except my battle against EA has been publicized here on this very site.

      I wonder if a term exists for being fatally inept, because you sure meet the criteria.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
  54. Re:This does not seem fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It seems pretty clear from the summary that it only applies to apple products sold directly from apple as a retailer, not to apple products sold through other outlets. I would think that if it were applied to apple as a manufacturer, apple products would be covered even if sold through a 3'd party.

  55. ...or is it? by F69631 · · Score: 2

    Warranties on *all* electrical goods in Europe are two years by law.

    This isn't the first time I hear that claim on /. but I don't think it's true. The consumer agency in my country states the following on their website:

    Service life

    Consumers have the right to expect that an appliance will last in normal use for its realistic service life. It is possible that during the service life the appliance will require maintenance and even repairs for which the consumer is liable to pay. However, the seller has considerable liability during the early part of the service life and in the time immediately after the expiration of warranty. Liability diminishes as the appliance gets older.

    The warranty provided for home appliances is often 1-2 years. Their expected service life - depending on the appliance - is, however, often much longer. If an appliance breaks down immediately after the warranty has expired, the cost of repairs is substantial and the consumer has not operated the appliance contrary to the operating instructions, he may appeal to the appliance's service life.

    Now, while the quoted paragraphs state that you may be able to demand compensation even after the warranty has expired, it says nothing about EU-wide 2 year warranty... which seems odd if such a thing exists.

    If there really is that kind of law, could some kind soul tell me where to find it?

    1. Re:...or is it? by ericloewe · · Score: 1

      Warranties on *all* electrical goods in Europe are two years by law.

      This isn't the first time I hear that claim on /. but I don't think it's true.

      As far as I know, there's an EU directive that recommends that member states implement a minimum 2-year warranty for electrical goods, which was followed by everyone. At least here in Portugal it's the law, and it's often quoted as being an EU law...

    2. Re:...or is it? by nospam007 · · Score: 4, Informative
    3. Re:...or is it? by gnasher719 · · Score: 1

      Now, while the quoted paragraphs state that you may be able to demand compensation even after the warranty has expired, it says nothing about EU-wide 2 year warranty... which seems odd if such a thing exists.

      If there really is that kind of law, could some kind soul tell me where to find it?

      I suppose that isn't actually the law text. With all these laws, you have to read the complete text. And the devil is in the details. Your country should have laws that make the seller responsible for selling products that last a reasonable amount of time and are not defective when you received it. A crucial bit of information is who has to prove things; in many countries the rule is that if something breaks within 6 months then the seller has to prove it wasn't their fault, and after 6 months it's the other way round.

    4. Re:...or is it? by yacc143 · · Score: 1

      This is so probably because the EU directive law process.

      Basically, an EU directive sets certain limits, plus a deadline by which member states have to have a statute that implements the directive.
      Only in some cases, when the deadline is ignored by a member state, the EU directive can become directly applicable law.

      So there is no EU-wide 2 years minimum warranty. But there is a directive that describes what is the minimum that has to apply in all member states.

      Example, you are allowed to return mail order stuff for a full refund, but it's a 14 days period in Germany, and 7 days in Austria. Both regulations go back to an EU directive, but Austria/Germany implemented it slightly different.

      Another thing here is that in the EU you usually have two different legal concepts:

      -) defects liability (warranty by statute, "Gewährleistung") is basically a warranty provided by law, which is 2 years long, usually, and which cannot be reduced in contracts with consumers. (Actually it's not electrical goods here, it's "mobile goods", "stationary goods" usually have a much longer liability period. And there are strictly limited cases where even in business with a consumer you can limit it, like used goods, or parts that are used up during normal usage.) This is legal right that you've got against your contract partner, the retailer. And in AT/DE at least it's split, the first 6 months you've got an assumption that the defect was there on delivery, afterwards the assumption is turned, so you need to prove that the defect was there in the device as such.

      -) warranty by the manufacturer. It's basically voluntary and it can contain all kinds of conditions. (E.g. your car need to be serviced regularly by an authorized work shop, ...)

      In practice that turns out usually as 6 months hard warranty, because the retailer would need to prove that the customer caused the defect, and usually followed by 1.5 years "soft" warranty, because the legal risk is (more) on the consumer, but usually consumer-friendly companies handle it without problems, only refusing in the most blatant cases where the consumer ruined the goods.

      Now, where exactly puts that Apple on the "user-friendliness" axis. (E.g. you can charge all current mobiles on standardized Micro-USB chargers, wonder which company asked to be allowed to sell a special adaptor that you need to buy separately. Yes, you guessed it, Apple. Guess it would have been better to make that an EU directive, and not allow the industry to regulate itself, then Apple would have to produce iPhones with USB standard plugs :) )

       

    5. Re:...or is it? by Computershack · · Score: 1

      Warranties on *all* electrical goods in Europe are two years by law.

      This isn't the first time I hear that claim on /. but I don't think it's true.

      It depends on whether your country has implemented the EU directive or not. We haven't here in the UK and we don't want to as our Sale of Goods Act rules are stronger than the EU directive in many ways. There is no such thing as a fixed guarantee - goods should last for a reasonably expected lifetime.

      --
      I only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow isn't looking good either. - Scott Adams
  56. Re:This does not seem fair by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
    Wow...between all this and the high VAT ya'll charge on top of everything...

    No wonder shit is so expen$ive over there.....

    --
    Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
  57. Re:This does not seem fair by higuita · · Score: 2

    >In other cases, other retailers have to get Apple to fix the stuff, but Apple isn't directly liable.

    Apple still have to give that EU retailer the same 2 years warranty, that law isnt just for the final consumer, its for every electric appliance sold as new. (used equipment have different warranty times)

    --
    Higuita
  58. Re:This does not seem fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:31999L0044:en:HTML

  59. Re:This does not seem fair by rtfa-troll · · Score: 2

    It is a retailer warranty. It only applies as Apple sells something directly to consumers. In other cases, other retailers have to get Apple to fix the stuff, but Apple isn't directly liable.

    The great thing about EU warranties is that you don't have to think about this at all. Both the original supplier and the original retailer are liable. You as a consumer just turn up and hand it over to whoever you find most easily. In some countries the retailer may deny this. If you turn up with a return notice in writing, however, they normally just roll over and do whatever you tell them to. Remember they have 28 days (details probably depend on the country) and after that you can get your money back. This means you want a dated receipt when you hand over your broken product.

    Always keep your original proof of purchase (though you might not need that in the UK and some other places if you have some other evidence) and you will get your stuff fixed. Often this is easily worth the difference in price between the US (including sales taxes) and EU. Try comparing with the price in the US with an extended warranty and suddenly you will think you have a bargain.

    --
    =~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
  60. Re:This does not seem fair by Patch86 · · Score: 1

    How the retailer deals with the warranty is up to the retailer.

    My parents' fancy Samsung TV went wrong under warranty last year. They took it back to the retailer (Currys) who had their own repair guys assess it. They assessed that it couldn't be repaired economically, and gave them a store credit voucher for the price they paid, so that they could pick a replacement. They will then go about reclaiming this cost from Samsung behind the scenes. I don't know what would have happened if they had decided to repair it- whether they would have sent it back to Samsung to do the work, or if they would have done it themselves and sent Samsung the bill.

    The point is that it's between the retailer and the supplier how they settle it. From the consumers point of view, they will get a repair, a replacement or a refund, and it doesn't matter how it gets done.

  61. Re:This does not seem fair by arth1 · · Score: 1

    Not really. I as the consumer enter a contract with the retailer. I pay them money and they provide me with a product, they are responsible for delivering a decent product and therefore have to give a warranty. Where they got the product from and how they provide the warranty is none of my concern, I didn't enter a contract with the manufacturer, as far as I know they don't exist.

    Up until the retailer goes belly up. At that point, you'll be happy that you were wrong, and that the manufacturer really holds the warranty, not the retailer.

  62. Pay Australian prices now? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Will they be charged the same as Australians who have long been ripped off by Apple's inconsistent global pricing?

    Apple in Australia costs considerably more considering:
    * $AUS currency has double against the $USD in the last 10 years. Apple accounts in USD.
    * The place of manufacture is closer to Australia than EU/USA, so shipping costs aren't the cause.

  63. A lot of confusion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There seems to be a lot of confusion on this issue.
    I will speak about the law here in Italy, because that's what I am familiar with.
    If you buy something as a consumer, the SELLER has to give you warranty for two years (one year if you are buying as a company with a VAT number). You only have to show the proof of purchase, and unless it is evident that you caused the damage (typically by immersion in water -> corrosion or by letting the item fall -> crushing) the SELLER has to get it repaired. The MANUFACTURER has no responsability toward the consumer.
    When Apple sells a computer on its website, it is a SELLER, so must comply with this, and cannot sell you that second year of warranty, because it's due to you anyway. When you buy an iDevice through another store, it's that store who is responsible toward you for the two years.

  64. Re:This does not seem fair by arth1 · · Score: 1

    Actually you both are right, to a certain degree. You have a contractual relationship with the retailer, the retailer is obliged to give you a warranty. But then the retailer is in a contractual relationship with the manufacturer (sometimes by multiple levels of indirection) and part of the deal is that they service this warranty.

    Yes, but for electronics, the guarantor is usually the manufacturer, which is probably how you want it, so you still get warranty if the retail store goes belly up with no other company buying the assets and liabilities.
    When you buy a device, this information should (by law, I think) be readily available. And as long as the retail store exists, you of course deal with the retail store if you so choose.
    But you should still take a look at the warranty, and compare it to the law where you are - individual states must follow the minimum required by the EU or EEC, but can very well have stronger consumer protection than that.

    One thing I wonder about is the legality of "extended" warranties that run parallel to the legally mandated warranty. If you pay for a 3 year extended warranty and it only extends your warranty from 2 to 3 years, isn't that a swindle?
    Even if it offers something more, like phone support, isn't it 2 years of phone support + 1 year of warranty and phone support, and should be marketed as such? Else they sell and charge for the same product (the warranty) twice, I would think?

  65. The poster got it wrong.... by outofbreath · · Score: 1

    This was not about Apple not adapting the mandatory 2 years consumer protection. It is a law in Europe and any consumer can claim his rights. Apple can not and did not change that. This was about consumer advocates claiming that Apple did not inform the consumers about the 2 years mandatory consumer protection under European Law. This law gives any consumer who buys a product to return to the RETAILER if it does not perform as advertised or has a defect, which that inhibits its ability to reform as advertised. Instead Apple did not mention this protection, which existed all along and advertised its existing one year warranty which exceeds the basic consumer protection (see the link in the post) and tried to sell its 3 year warranty. It was regarded by consumer advocates as deceptive that apple never mentioned the existing consumer protection in order to sell its three year warranty.