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Survey Says Bosses Fear Being Filmed By Employees

New submitter Cazekiel writes "If you think your boss is a fearless, miserable beast whose only worries lie in how well his company or business competes, think again. The 'Business Video Behavior Project' survey conducted by Qumu reveals that those in-charge are growing more and more paranoid about something the Average Joe fears just walking down the street nowadays: employees who will 'secretly film him with his metaphorical pants down and then post the footage for public delectation.' It would seem that it doesn't matter if you're powerful, wealthy and lording over hundreds of cubicles; they know the internet exists, everyone has a cell phone camera and thick wallets don't make discarded banana peels magically move out of their path." The company that paid for the study, note, promises to "securely distribute business video simultaneously over multiple Edge routes," so they probably don't mind some workplace paranoia.

159 comments

  1. I have an idea by Psychotria · · Score: 5, Insightful

    No, he's scared you might use your new technological tools to make naughty videos -- the worst of which would be to secretly film him with his metaphorical pants down and then post the footage for public delectation.

    My brilliant idea is that if you're a boss BEHAVE APPROPRIATELY, ethically and fairly. It's not that hard.

    1. Re:I have an idea by furytrader · · Score: 4, Informative

      That's Business Ethics 101 - if you're doing something at work that you wouldn't want posted on the front page of the local newspapers, don't do it.

    2. Re:I have an idea by Psychotria · · Score: 1

      That's Business Ethics 101 - if you're doing something at work that you wouldn't want posted on the front page of the local newspapers, don't do it.

      That's true. But if TFA is to be believed maybe they skipped that class :-)

    3. Re:I have an idea by daktari · · Score: 1

      That's Business Ethics 101 - if you're doing something at work that you wouldn't want posted on the front page of the local newspapers, don't do it.

      Your statement has very little to do with ethics per se. Our society allows for plenty of ethically dubious stuff to go down while still perfectly okay to land the front page.

      I guess, your statement has more to do with simply not wanting to get caught than being ethical.

      --
      A fool sees not the same tree that a wise man sees. -- Willam Blake
    4. Re:I have an idea by garcia · · Score: 2

      I'm a supervisor. If my employees video me at work they're going to show the world that I use Putty and Chrome to get a more-than-occasional peek at Slashdot or Twitter.

      As long as they are getting their work done to my expectations and especially the expectations of the customer, they can pretty much do what they want as well.

      So why would I care that they video me and why would they want to in the first place? Are supervisors really that unethical and misbehaving so often that this is really a concern?

    5. Re:I have an idea by causality · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I guess, your statement has more to do with simply not wanting to get caught

      That's about the only thing a sociopath fears. That's why the "threat" of video documentation is so effective.

      than being ethical.

      I don't see what ethical people would fear from this. Not at the workplace, anyway.

      I think this situation has merely arisen to cope with a modern reality: that altruism and enlightened self-interest are at an all-time low. Many people won't even fake them anymore to be thought of as "good" because it is the value of those things itself that is eroding. People like this are self-absorbed and often live as though other people don't exist and could not be inconvenienced or harmed by their bad decision-making, something you can witness in traffic daily. It's not that they are malicious, it's that they don't even notice how their actions affect other people. They don't even have sense enough not to block doorways or other basic things like that. People like this need a selfish reason to do the right thing, like avoiding embarassment, because they can no longer be trusted to have any other kind.

      Of course there have always been bandits, assholes, etc. The difference is they used to be rare enough to stand out. Self-absorbed obliviousness as a societal norm is the next logical step after ADD and perpetual victimhood ("nothing's ever my fault"). That's where we are today.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    6. Re:I have an idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For a moment, pretend that you are a boss (if you aren't already). Say you supervise an employee who holds a grudge against you. Could be over money, power, they're insecure...whatever.

      Now you have to worry that this disgruntled employee sneaks around with his cellphone to catch you having handling a situation less than ideally and posting footage out of context.

      Nobody likes having someone look over their shoulder and judging. Why should bosses be different?

    7. Re:I have an idea by mobby_6kl · · Score: 1

      My brilliant idea is that if you're a boss BEHAVE APPROPRIATELY, ethically and fairly. It's not that hard.

      There are many appropriate, ethical, and fair things one can talk about or do with employees, but that are nevertheless not intended for public distribution. However, people who break confidentiality without (the intention of) exposing something illegal can be disciplined or fired anyway, so yeah, following that suggestion is a good way to avoid embarrassment.

    8. Re:I have an idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      These days, the newspaper seems to just make up controversial headlines (the headloine in the form of a question) and tells only certain parts of the whole story often times making a "story" out of nothing at all. Rarely do you get both sides of a story, only one sided juicy bits and clips. The news media who believes the public and their advertisers are only interested in shock and awe and not the actual story, facts or news, provides exactly that. Who really gives a fuck that some prince and his wife went skiing last weeked? I sure as hell don't and in my mind, that will NEVER be news.

    9. Re:I have an idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know any companies these days with the old fashioned us and them attitude (at least overtly).

      article seems to mention company parties - which from now on will be cancelled of course to the detriment of your colleagues and the revenue for the hospitality industry (congrats!)

      filming in an office - pretty much expect this to be unprofessional and breaking your contract, and let's not forget damage to the company = damage to everyone including your colleagues (congrats!)

      In fact given the security risks in general i'm surprised cell phones aren't just banned at the door in most cases.

    10. Re:I have an idea by houghi · · Score: 1

      It is forbidden to film where I am. They do not film us, so why would we film them? I have no desire to do so, nor have I heard of anybody else having that desire.

      But then I live in Communist Europe where we tend to not have cubicles and instead can directly communicate with our boss and anybody else.

      Sure, there are bosses who are complete assholes, but I am sure that there are employees who are complete assholes and the percentage is not that different. That includes CEOs of pretty large companies as well as the lowest in the treadmill.

      The main difference is that if those in the lower regions don't behave ethically and fairly, people won't care. If they are higher up, they do.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    11. Re:I have an idea by robmv · · Score: 1

      I extend that to "If you are a human being...."

    12. Re:I have an idea by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      Easier said then done. That said they should have company policies that would allow employees to record their boss with out them knowing... To keep them honest. What often happens some Middle Manager gets a big head, because he is charge of a unit without much oversight just as long the money comes in there won't be much complaining, it really doesn't matter if they could bring more in if they did a better job... Or they could bring in more money if they just wasn't there. So when given power and they get use to employees acting meek to them, they get use to the power and abuse it a little more. Not to say all bosses are this way. It really depends on the motivation of the boss. Some bosses are all about power, they like controlling others lives (Micro-manager/bully boss), others are in it for the prestige they just like people looking up to them (self promoter), and others like authority to implement their ideas (visionary, sometimes a bit too abstract). Normally there are mixture of those. For the most part people are a mixture of different degrees of these. However if a Boss is strong in power they will be more likely to be caught doing things they don't want posted. The self promoter will be doing less of these things but really doesn't want anything negative posted. The visionary is sometimes too out there to care either way.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    13. Re:I have an idea by tophermeyer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I think my concern would be that someone is trying to collect video of me that, out of context, puts me in a bad light. I say this because I once had a junior employee (not a direct report) try to throw me under the bus for one of his mistakes by presenting an email that appeared to show me giving him specific directions. It was dumb because, you know email. But without context it might be difficult to defend yourself from false allegations.

    14. Re:I have an idea by jellomizer · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Business ethics gets very complicated very quickly.

      Here is an example. Your job is to sell your product to a foreign country (You sell a good product at a good price). In this country offering bribes is common and legal, however it is considered immoral and illegal for you and your culture and country to offer the bribes. So you go to the business deal the the owner says, you are offering a fine offer however what is in it for me (wink, wink).

      Do you.
      1. Turn down the bribe and loose the business.
      2. Offer the bribe and hope they don't find out.
      3. Offer to close the deal near your headquarters in Orlando Florida, and give him prepaid tickets and cover expenses (and his family who should be leaving his side) to come to headquarters to fill out the deal.

      The problem is the more diverse set of people you meet the more muddy ethics get.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    15. Re:I have an idea by Sarten-X · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Problem: 100 people on a sinking boat, only enough lifeboat space for 50

      Ethical solution: Pick 50 people at random for the boats

      Politically-correct statement the public wants the captain to say: "Put a few extra people in the boats! We'll save as many as we can!!">

      Politically-correct statement the company wants him to say: "We'll make a lottery, remove ourselves, and pick 10 people at random, then we'll let them take their families, and pick more until we run out of space"

      Quick statement: "We'll pick 50 people at random. There will be orphans."

      Frankly, I'd be pissed if my knee-jerk reaction statements were recorded, too, regardless of whether my behavior is ethical or not. The public at large is so quick to become enraged, and the media is so willing to sensationalize, that anything but silence in a bad situation is a PR mess.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    16. Re:I have an idea by daktari · · Score: 1

      That's about the only thing a sociopath fears. That's why the "threat" of video documentation is so effective.

      Agreed. But I think we're getting some things backwards: ethical people have little to fear re becoming front page copy since their ethical actions are generally not deemed "news worthy". If however, a sociopath decides not to do something out of fear of being caught it has little to do with his/her burdened conscious.

      Backwards, as if Descartes would have said: I am, therefore I think. And we all know that not always to be the case.

      --
      A fool sees not the same tree that a wise man sees. -- Willam Blake
    17. Re:I have an idea by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      Some bosses, really get out of the professional category. When the S**t hits the fan they just don't know what to do. They will just start yelling and making crazy threats and become insane. The things with middle managers is they are directly targeted. If they don't get promoted to upper management in a few years, they need to leave and find an other job, else when there is a company reorg they will be the first to go.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    18. Re:I have an idea by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Reality solution: Crew grabs lifeboats and leaves the sinking ship, passengers will survive, or not, who cares.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    19. Re:I have an idea by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      Because of the double standard where they do it with impunity while we shouldn't.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    20. Re:I have an idea by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Because then your boss couldn't call you while you're at the toilet.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    21. Re:I have an idea by Sarten-X · · Score: 1

      We were talking about ethical people. Or are you saying there's no ethical people in reality?

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    22. Re:I have an idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would do number 1. This is not a hard question. There is no muddy ethics. Don't do business with corrupt countries.

    23. Re:I have an idea by kelemvor4 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Business ethics gets very complicated very quickly. Here is an example. Your job is to sell your product to a foreign country (You sell a good product at a good price). In this country offering bribes is common and legal, however it is considered immoral and illegal for you and your culture and country to offer the bribes. So you go to the business deal the the owner says, you are offering a fine offer however what is in it for me (wink, wink). Do you. 1. Turn down the bribe and loose the business. 2. Offer the bribe and hope they don't find out. 3. Offer to close the deal near your headquarters in Orlando Florida, and give him prepaid tickets and cover expenses (and his family who should be leaving his side) to come to headquarters to fill out the deal. The problem is the more diverse set of people you meet the more muddy ethics get.

      It only seems complicated because (most?) businesspeople think there are a separate set of rules just for them. Hence the fact that the term "business ethics" even exists. Option 1 is the correct answer.

    24. Re:I have an idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is illegal for American companies to offer bribes anywhere in the world.

    25. Re:I have an idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, he's scared you might use your new technological tools to make naughty videos -- the worst of which would be to secretly film him with his metaphorical pants down and then post the footage for public delectation.

      My brilliant idea is that if you're a boss BEHAVE APPROPRIATELY, ethically and fairly. It's not that hard.

      Behaving properply has little to do with it.

      The problem is now the boss has to be extra cautious all the time and cant even speak his mind for fear of being recorded and it taken completely out of context. They are worried they cant be friendly, worried they cant make honest social commentary, worried they cant express things infront of employees for fear of it being used against them.

    26. Re:I have an idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Business ethics gets very complicated very quickly. ...
      1. Turn down the bribe and loose the business.
      2. Offer the bribe and hope they don't find out.
      3. Offer to close the deal near your headquarters in Orlando Florida, and give him prepaid tickets and cover expenses (and his family who should be leaving his side) to come to headquarters to fill out the deal.

      The problem is the more diverse set of people you meet the more muddy ethics get.

      Every corporate environment I've ever worked in would consider #1 the only appropriate response. It's only 'complicated' when you think the fact that you get the sale or not should bear in any way on the ethics of the situation.

    27. Re:I have an idea by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Sure there are. Sadly, since elbows determine your advance on the career ladder, they are rarely in charge.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    28. Re:I have an idea by skovnymfe · · Score: 1

      Isn't that what they always tell us? If you're doing nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear from these CCTVs we're installing everywhere so we can protect your children.

      I'm A-OK with recording every single move made by CEOs all over the world. We all know it's big business that writes the laws these days anyway, so let's see how they like having their privacy invaded for a change.

    29. Re:I have an idea by Stu101 · · Score: 1

      If you work for a large company, even the IT guys have to abide by the FOCA act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Corrupt_Practices_Act. We spend days (Seriously) learning what we can and cant do, even though we are IT. We don't even speak to customers, sell anything or buy anything and we have it 24/7!

      If you get caught, worrying about your employees is the last thing you will be doing.

      --
      http://www.writeitfor.us - Writing IT for the IT generation.
    30. Re:I have an idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I think my concern would be that someone is trying to collect video of me that, out of context, puts me in a bad light. I say this because I once had a junior employee (not a direct report) try to throw me under the bus for one of his mistakes by presenting an email that appeared to show me giving him specific directions. It was dumb because, you know email. But without context it might be difficult to defend yourself from false allegations.

      WOW! I've had similar things happen to me, but as an employee, and NOT as a boss. I've been told to do things that were questionable, and then one time I was "caught" and I explained that I was just following orders. When I try to formally explain myself my supervisors always framed it in such a way as; "puts me in a bad light.".

      I've always noticed that there's always a perception of denial and grandiosity when it comes to Management. I am completely in favour of employees gathering evidence against their employers. I am also against employers who spy on employees, because there is a power disparity in such cases which makes this "monitoring" unethical.

    31. Re:I have an idea by Almandine · · Score: 1

      It's not complicated and #1 is the answer. A few years ago at my former workplace, a top performing President of our division was quickly "removed" from the company to the surprise of everyone. Internal rumors (not publically announced in print) from management indicate that it was an ethics violation of the type you described. Shortly afterwards, everyone had to take related ethics training. In the annual mandatory ethics classes of the following years, there was a new true story of a real life example (with names changed) that seems similar to the event.

    32. Re:I have an idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's Business Ethics 101 - if you're doing something at work that you wouldn't want posted on the front page of the local newspapers, don't do it.

      You'll never get far in American business with that kind of ethics - well really, any kind of ethics at all.

    33. Re:I have an idea by Patch86 · · Score: 1

      Option 1. That's how ethics work- you do the right thing even if it isn't the most profitable or convenient thing to do. If the most ethical option were the most profitable and convenient, you wouldn't need a code of ethics anyway.

      If it were customary in some country to murder a dozen orphans to celebrate closing a deal, while it is obviously illegal (and considered somewhat unethical) to do so in your country, you opt for Option 1- you don't do it. Justifying doing it in order to make more money is the absolute height of ethical failure.

    34. Re:I have an idea by jellomizer · · Score: 0

      Ok lets say your product will save the lives of people, who would die without it?
      Or lets say your competitor is willing to pay the bribe sells a poorer quality product?

      The problem isn't that they think there is separate rules but more to the point that the rules are conflicting.

      Country A requires action that is illegal in Country B. Country A and Country B are allowed to trade with each other. Your job is to trade with that country.

      Option 1. You will get fired for not doing your job.
      Option 2. Will get you in jail.
      Option 3. Whiny Liberal Activists will whine a little bit but in the end everyone who matters is happy.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    35. Re:I have an idea by Dodgy+G33za · · Score: 1

      Ethical Solution: Everyone sits discussing the relative worth per kilo of the various passengers. All drown.

    36. Re:I have an idea by HapSlappy_2222 · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Option 1 is not necessarily the best answer. It could be argued that Option 1 is the worst answer, ethically, because you're not even trying to come up with a solution for all parties involved (including yourself); you're simply avoiding deeper thought about the decision to help only yourself.

      Option 3 seems like the best compromise, all around, and if the company is willing to bring the client and family out for a visit (which happens all the time), the option of showing him OUR culture opens up. This seems like the best ethical decision, long-term, because you have a better chance, over time, of teaching said client how business is done ethically in the US, just as he has a chance to teach you more about his own culture does business. Without this type of compromise on a broad scale, what you're suggesting leads to a breakdown of international trade.

      The point is, just because you say "Option 1 is the correct answer" without providing support for your argument doesn't make it so, and there are hundreds of permutations that should be considered in situations like this. It's not as easy as you make it sound, nor are the "businesspeople" all a bunch of greedy douchebags bribing their way to the top to make a quick buck (most, maybe, but not all. =)

    37. Re:I have an idea by cyn1c77 · · Score: 2

      I would do number 1. This is not a hard question. There is no muddy ethics. Don't do business with corrupt countries.

      Is that why you are posting anonymously? :)

    38. Re:I have an idea by HapSlappy_2222 · · Score: 1

      You had me right up until Whiny Liberal Activists.

      Option 3 happens all day, erry day, in the business world, and the only time anybody actually complains is when the "gift" becomes fur coats, stock options, straight up cash, etc. In your example, Option 3 actually had value from a business standpoint, in that the client gets to see your facilities, staff, meet you in person, etc. It is simply a way to cover all the bases, get the client into your sphere of influence, and attempt to show him the value of buying your product. Throwing fur coats or cash at a potential client is nothing more than an attempt to pay him to buy from you (literal bribe). This is one reason a golf course is such a powerful place to conduct business. The difference is on a personal level, and while it's subtle to some people, it's most definitely there.

      If you've ever paid for a lunch for your friends, family, girlfriend, etc to talk about something important, you've done the same thing. By offering to pay for lunch at your favorite restaurant, you're bringing them further into your social circle, strengthening the relationship, and providing a comfortable place for the discussion to unfold. It's FAR different from, say, mailing $300 cash and a proposal note to your girlfriend (by the way, if this actually works, you should hit the eject button. Just sayin.)

    39. Re:I have an idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      In the case mentioned by GP, there was an ethical person yelling at the captain over the phone/radio/dunnowhat, urging him to get the Goddamm hell back into the ship and do his job. The problem was, that guy was not physically where the events were taking place, so there was not much he could do about it except hope the scumbag in the lifeboat would come to his senses and act like he had something resembling a sense of duty.

    40. Re:I have an idea by HapSlappy_2222 · · Score: 1

      Maybe I totally missed what's wrong with Option 3 then. Sure, it seemed packaged to resemble a hidden bribe, but flying foreign contacts into the country to conduct business happens near-daily at all the companies I've worked for that have a foreign presence. By your logic, fronting the cash to set up a video-conference is just as unethical. Perhaps the offer to bring the family with is the issue people are making, but I don't see how it's any worse; having the client's family see the local area facilitates easier trips in the future. If a company offered to fly you and your family out to China to discuss a very lucrative offer for your latest software creation, would you turn down the trip and the business? No, because in only the most asinine thought-bubble is this even CLOSE to the same thing as a cash bribe.

      Your comparison of flying my new Chinese buddy out here so the board and I can chat with him about the direction we're taking the semiconductor division over the next 4 years to murdering orphans is stupid as hell. Also, it's not about "making more money" it's about doing your fuckin job, which, in sales, is to make and maintain as many relationships as you can. Even outside the business world, a friendship that isn't maintained is lost. Not getting this simple fucking point is why we in IT harbor such contempt for sales people; they're working just as hard as we are, and while, admittedly, many of these folks get into a gray area ethically, the vast majority are just trying to follow the rules and do a good job, just like us.

    41. Re:I have an idea by HapSlappy_2222 · · Score: 1

      Well you, sir, are obviously happen with what your naughty bits look like. Good for you! The rest of us supervisors are terrified.

    42. Re:I have an idea by HapSlappy_2222 · · Score: 1

      *happy. Damn.

    43. Re:I have an idea by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      We were talking about ethical people. Or are you saying there's no ethical people in reality?

      There are, but they all drowned trying to save those who are not.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    44. Re:I have an idea by CanHasDIY · · Score: 2

      I'll take Option 4: Avoid idiotic, leading question written so there is no right answer while maintaining personal ethics, by someone with an obvious agenda to create a fantasy world where doing the wrong thing is the only way to survive.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    45. Re:I have an idea by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      What you are describing is pretty much a rule for all of humanity from now on. If you don't want it posted, permanently, for everyone on the planet to see, don't do it.

      That means having a beer with friends is pretty much off-limits. Not only might you do something stupid, but there are plenty of people that think instead of out having a beer you or your friends should be home with the wife and kids. And they will call you on it. Loudly.

      Ever fallen down? Expect someone with a camera to record this moment and make sure it can never be forgotten. How about a TV show titled "Funny Falls" where they just edit together some posted videos.

      We have gone way, way beyond anything that could be considered "civil". Basically it is you are on camera 24x7 and the slightest transgression will be made public. Permanently.

    46. Re:I have an idea by CanHasDIY · · Score: 0

      Your comparison of flying my new Chinese buddy out here so the board and I can chat with him about the direction we're taking the semiconductor division over the next 4 years to murdering orphans is stupid as hell.... it's about doing your fuckin job, which, in sales, is to make and maintain as many relationships as you can.

      So, if your fuckin job required you to murder orphans, you'd do it? Because that's what OP was asking.

      Where you got the idea they were comparing client flights to orphan murder is know only to you and your Creator.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    47. Re:I have an idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      #3 is still unethical. It's just how bribes are done in America. Ethics aren't complicated. Trying to cheat is complicated.

    48. Re:I have an idea by HapSlappy_2222 · · Score: 1

      How are the two NOT being compared? The GP's question, rephrased: "Offering bribes is unethical, but you're willing to do it for cultural reasons. Well, what if murdering orphans was a cultural tradition. Would you do it then?" For fuck's sake, YOU compared the two by basically asking "Since your job requires offering bribes, if your job required orphan killing would you ALSO be ok with MURDERING ORPHANS, you scum?"

      But whatever, I'm obviously in the minority here, and I'm getting more pissed off than it's worth. I'll keep taking my clients to lunch to keep my little shop running, and hope my competitors agree with all you dumbasses.

    49. Re:I have an idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think this situation has merely arisen to cope with a modern reality: that altruism and enlightened self-interest are at an all-time low.

      Well, the high priests of economics and similar keep trying to hammer the idea that everyone is a greedy bastard into the public consciousness. Why? Because it's one of the founding axioms their theories are based on. Without it (and others, like the greedy bastards operating from perfect information) their theories are bunk.

      Their theories *are* bunk. Sadly they don't really do science. They do politics. Their political masters use them and their dogma to retain power.

      One of humanity's greatest strengths is our ability to cooperate. If we were all utter greedy bastards we'd never have created civilization.

    50. Re:I have an idea by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      If you have a boat going down, you've already got a PR mess.

    51. Re:I have an idea by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      How are the two NOT being compared?

      Here, this should help: http://www.rhlschool.com/reading.htm

      The GP's question, rephrased: "Offering bribes is unethical, but you're willing to do it for cultural reasons. Well, what if murdering orphans was a cultural tradition. Would you do it then?" For fuck's sake, YOU compared the two by basically asking "Since your job requires offering bribes, if your job required orphan killing would you ALSO be ok with MURDERING ORPHANS, you scum?"

      Again: http://www.rhlschool.com/reading.htm

      But whatever, I'm obviously in the minority here, and I'm getting more pissed off than it's worth. I'll keep taking my clients to lunch to keep my little shop running, and hope my competitors agree with all you dumbasses.

      Yea, you do that, since you obviously need all the practice talking to folks without being a total self-absorbed dick that you can get.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    52. Re:I have an idea by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, what you are proposing is that US rules are better. Why? Why isn't "grease" an acceptable answer? It has worked in many cultures for longer than the US has been in existance.

      Maybe it doesn't work well in the US, which is fine. But it is difficult to say it should not work in China or Saudi Arabia because ... well, just because. Because it is wrong in the US isn't an answer for everyone else.

      Now, the specific idea of bribing people to do business with you is certainly in effect strongly in the US today. What do you think a coupon is, anyway? How about the offer of "buy $5000 in furniture and get a free TV." It is just that we call it something else and try to cover it up. Other cultures may be more open about it, which in my opinion is more transparent and at least everyone knows what they are dealing with.

      If you trying to "prove" to some "foreigner" that the US culture is better than theirs, you are making a huge mistake. First off, it probably can't be done. Secondly, half of the problems the US has in foreign relations today are because we consistently try to do this and it is insulting on many levels. Who the heck are we to tell cultures thousands of years older than ours that we are better than they are? Sure, we may feel better about it and might even have a point that on a purely objective level it IS better. But human relations are never conducted on a purely objective level.

    53. Re:I have an idea by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      So you're saying your ethics should change depending on where you are? Then those ethics were not very deeply instilled in you to start with.

    54. Re:I have an idea by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      You're still trying to rationalize unethical behavior. If you are going to get fired for not doing something unethical, that job was not worth it.

    55. Re:I have an idea by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      If someone is insisting that I behave unethically, especially after I've explained my situation to them, then they are not worth appeasing. Clearly they have no interest in meeting me halfway, and if they are pushing for unethical behavior up front, who knows what kind of unethical behavior they will employ during the length of the business relationship?

    56. Re:I have an idea by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      Unethical or bad behavior is not the point. Comedy is the point - making someone look like a fool. So you walk into the office and trip over something and end up with coffee on your shirt. Expect it to be on YouTube within the hour.

      Some people think this is funny and the new explosion of camera phones and web services make it possible for these people to illustrate to others the humor (?) they find in the office and on the street. Maybe recording people in bars are good for a few laughs as well. Ever get shot down by a woman in a bar? Once again, if it is flamboyant enough, expect it on YouTube soon.

      Privacy? Civility? Forget it. We are in the age of the Internet now.

    57. Re:I have an idea by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      it's about doing your fuckin job, which, in sales, is to make and maintain as many relationships as you can.

      If "doing your fuckin job" requires you to do unethical things on a regular basis, then you are a terrible person.

    58. Re:I have an idea by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      Most places won't consider "just following orders" to be a reasonable excuse, even if they're the ones who told you what to do.

    59. Re:I have an idea by HapSlappy_2222 · · Score: 1

      Nah, not really what I was trying to say here. I'm actually more on your side with this; the point I was trying to make is that all the folks saying "Option 1, cut and dry!" aren't really thinking the situation through. They are ignoring the many reasons to want to fly a client to your location, and there are also plenty of reasons to fly yourself out and see them (you just pointed out several great reasons for doing both).

      It's less about a cultural pissing contest and more about establishing a relationship to facilitate discussions about "this is how we do task A here, how do you do it there?" One of my most fond memories was working with a friend from China, who generally had the same value systems that I do. It was mind-boggling, though, on the things that were different. Same with another friend from Israel; odd to do business when you had to figure out how to keep your goods from passing through red zones (which sometimes included my boss!).

      I guess I just don't get the rabid venom people using to attack jellomizer's third option; it seems a pretty regular thing to do from what I've seen.

    60. Re:I have an idea by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      Nobody likes having someone look over their shoulder and judging. Why should bosses be different?

      Because they got to do it without penalty for so long?

    61. Re:I have an idea by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      article seems to mention company parties - which from now on will be cancelled of course to the detriment of your colleagues and the revenue for the hospitality industry (congrats!)/quote.

      1). Don't drink so fucking much? It's not that hard (unless you're an alcoholic, and if you're in recovery, then one would question the wisdom of you being at that kind of party to start with).

      2). I'm sorry, but the revenue for the hospitality industry is not my concern, especially when compared to possibly bringing light to unethical behaviors of my supervisors.

    62. Re:I have an idea by HapSlappy_2222 · · Score: 1

      Well, yes, I agree with this completely, and for the very reasons you point out, option 2 is a horrible and just plain wrong solution. My point was simply that I don't see anything unethical about flying a client (and his family) to meet with me in the first place, any more than I see a trip to the golf course or a business lunch as unethical. I've been on both sides of that particular "bribe" and I've said "no" just as often as I've said "yes" on both sides of the table (sadly, my clients typically say "no" too often for my tastes, but that's life).

      I don't see how it's even in the same realm as a bribe, which, to me, would consist of giving someone cash or some other un-related gift in order to secure their business outright.

    63. Re:I have an idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most places won't consider "just following orders" to be a reasonable excuse, even if they're the ones who told you what to do.

      I'm the GP. Yeah I know. But when you get a memo saying to do X (when X may not necessarily be illegal or immoral, just a bit dubious from my perspective; i.e. stupid), and then somebody higher up does a "write-up" on your behavior, nothing really matters. The boss, in my case, explained his position by saying that I have "poor English skills" because I obviously didn't understand the memo. Sounds similar to the "take things out of context" excuse. Yes, that is just ONE example, there are many more like it.

      Some of these examples are less moral. Like for example, when I was doing phone support for Sony computers and my supervisor told me to insist to the customers that this certain brand of computer didn't have any defects. I told the customer (based on "taking orders") what my boss told me to tell the customer, with the caveat that I specifically said that it was my supervisor who told me to say this. I also put my supervisor's name down in my work log. Of course I quickly got fired. If I was to be dishonest I would probably have a job right now, or at least have some positive employer references so that I could find another job.

      It pays to be dishonest. That's how many people get into Management. There are of course exceptions. They are (or seem to be) few and far between. Money and greed makes successful people likely to be immoral people. Nice guys finish last.

      Have a nice day.

    64. Re:I have an idea by HapSlappy_2222 · · Score: 1

      Sadly your links do not help me, for I must be retarded. Can you try again, this time explaining, with very small words, what concepts you are referring to, and how they bolster your argument that the two concepts were not being compared? Bonus points if you can directly refute the arguments I have given in support of my conclusion that they are (I'll even reiterate them for you below) without insulting me again (this may be difficult for you; but I'll get it out of the way up front: remember, I am a retarded and self-absorbed dick that needs practice talking to people).

      As said self-absorbed dick (note that I'm just giving you that one, although you didn't really explain why this is true, either. I gather it's just a fun name to call people who have ever engaged in any type of sales), I would like you to teach me, oh master of the internet, how attacking my position on the ethical discussion of paying for business-related activities (such as flying a potential client to my office, and even extending that to business lunches or a round of golf) by bringing murdered orphans into the discussion is:

      a) not a direct comparison by asking me "if you're ok with doing one small bad thing, would you also be ok with doing one huge bad thing?", and
      b) conducive to the discussion I was trying to have in the first place without completely ignoring my argument, which is that flying the client to my office is NOT unethical in the first place?

      Murdered orphans is a super powerful phrase that can win many arguments (especially those relating to murdered orphans, because, duh), but I think you and your buddy need to use it more responsibly by providing a proper argumentative support structure and tying it in a little better to the discussion at hand. Otherwise, shit goes all pear-shaped as people begin to randomly ask questions like "Are you going to LET THE ORPHANS DIE by not buying all your turkey from Safeway on Tuesdays?" to "win" arguments about The Year of the Linux Desktop! (WTF, right?). In so doing, you zoom right past discussing the original discussion point, and waste everybody's time so you can pretend you're superior. Nazis shouldn't be the only aspect of Godwin's law.

    65. Re:I have an idea by HapSlappy_2222 · · Score: 1

      Of course you are. But you're missing the point. Spending money to accomplish business-related activities (the specific example given is flying the client to Orlando to meet with you) isn't unethical in the first place.

      Apparently I should have argued with my mod points instead of my words, for this is NOT going well. (new sig? hmm)

    66. Re:I have an idea by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      Sadly your links do not help me, for I must be retarded. Can you try again, this time explaining, with very small words, what concepts you are referring to, and how they bolster your argument that the two concepts were not being compared?

      Your problem is, you're assigning associative properties to posts for which no association is made;

      Here's the original post:

      Here is an example. Your job is to sell your product to a foreign country (You sell a good product at a good price). In this country offering bribes is common and legal, however it is considered immoral and illegal for you and your culture and country to offer the bribes. So you go to the business deal the the owner says, you are offering a fine offer however what is in it for me (wink, wink).

      Do you.
      1. Turn down the bribe and loose the business.
      2. Offer the bribe and hope they don't find out.
      3. Offer to close the deal near your headquarters in Orlando Florida, and give him prepaid tickets and cover expenses (and his family who should be leaving his side) to come to headquarters to fill out the deal.

      That was a question all its own. The post you originally replied to contained a different question, albiet following the same guidelines. to wit:

      If it were customary in some country to murder a dozen orphans to celebrate closing a deal, while it is obviously illegal (and considered somewhat unethical) to do so in your country,

      Thus, we can clearly see that post 2 is a completely different question than post 1; post 1 asked "would you:

      A) Take the moral high road by not taking the bribe, and thus losing the sale,
      B) Take a bribe to make the deal, even though it is ethically and legally wrong to do so, or
      C) Invite the client to your office to make the deal, although how this applies to the morality of taking bribes is beyond me; I assume the point of flying the client in would be to get away from the country where bribes are commonplace, thus removing the moral question altogether.

      Consequently, post 2 swapped "bribe" with "murder orphan children," yet maintained the same question format ("would you A, B, or C"):

      A) Turn down the offer to murder orphans and likely lose the sale.
      B) Go ahead and murder the orphans, and hope the authorities don't find out, or
      C) Bring the client to your country (where murdering orphans to close deals is not commonplace).

      So clearly, It's not that the second poster was comparing bribery to child murder, but rather substituting child murder for bribery; I presume this is because the taking of bribes is likely considered by many (who take bribes) to be a moral 'grey' area, whereas the wholesale slaughter of bastard children is considered wrong across the board.

      OP was not assuming that a person who takes bribes also slaughters orphans; you assigned that association yourself, hence the links to reading comprehension worksheets. What can I say, I like to help people. I also tend to be a dick about it, as I've never been one who could suffer fools gladly.

      In conclusion, the 2 questions were completely unrelated, save for the format of the response. If you continue having problems understanding the difference, I encourage you to work through some of the reading comprehension worksheets I linked to.

      Otherwise, I shall refer you to the response given in Arkell v Pressdram.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    67. Re:I have an idea by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      Now, the specific idea of bribing people to do business with you is certainly in effect strongly in the US today. What do you think a coupon is, anyway? How about the offer of "buy $5000 in furniture and get a free TV."

      Those aren't bribes. Bribery is when you are paying a decision-maker for another entity.

      Buyer "A" approaches Seller "B". In your examples, "B" gives a little extra to "A" to close the deal. There is no ethical issue here.

      With bribery, you have Agent "A" for Buyer "C" approaching Seller "B". "B" gives something to "A" to close the deal. This is bribery -- the actual buyer doesn't benefit from the something extra.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    68. Re:I have an idea by Solandri · · Score: 1

      It only seems complicated because (most?) businesspeople think there are a separate set of rules just for them. Hence the fact that the term "business ethics" even exists. Option 1 is the correct answer.

      And this is exactly why corruption grows. People like you insist on option 1, no compromises. Consequently the ethical companies go out of business, leaving only unethical companies around, and the circle of corruption grows worse.

      The correct answer is option 3. Offer something of similar value to a bribe, but one which isn't so overt and open-ended, and will help to gradually bring the recipient around to your ethical way of thinking. If you want to change a corrupt process, you first have to gain some leverage in the process, which means getting your hands dirty participating in some of the corruption. Embrace, extend, extinguish (yes it works for the good guys as well as it does the bad guys).

    69. Re:I have an idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is really a concern of yours? I guess I am ok with other people laughing at my expense as I laugh at myself all the time.

      Get over yourself. Seriously.

    70. Re:I have an idea by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      That sounds a lot like the "nothing to hide, nothing to fear" argument.

    71. Re:I have an idea by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      From a pure Darwinist point of view, it means that the scumbags will thrive while the ethical intact will perish...

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    72. Re:I have an idea by sjames · · Score: 1

      In the MBA track, that class is AKA "comic relief".

      Then they go to the serious class about how to commit atrocities and keep it out of the press.

    73. Re:I have an idea by Captain+Hook · · Score: 1

      Money and greed makes successful people likely to be immoral people

      Are you sure it's not greed and immortality leading to money?

      --
      These comments are my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the other voices in my head.
    74. Re:I have an idea by sjames · · Score: 1

      Ethically speaking, 1 is the only correct answer. Any other answer leads inexorably to your own culture becoming corrupt..

    75. Re:I have an idea by sjames · · Score: 2

      If more people took option 1, employers wouldn't have the option of firing ethical people.

      So, still option 1. YOUR ethics aren't what is causing the problems. For extra credit, leak the details to the world so they can focus on the cleptocrat that is spreading human misery everywhere he goes.

    76. Re:I have an idea by CanHasDIY · · Score: 2

      From a pure Darwinist point of view, it means that the scumbags will thrive while the ethical intact will perish...

      Explains a lot about modern society, doesn't it?

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    77. Re:I have an idea by sjames · · Score: 2

      Even in countries where it is common, "grease" is still called corruption. Growing numbers of people in at least some of those cultures recognize that it doesn't really "work". In other words, it's not culture, it's prevalent crime. Any apparent dilemma is due to a faulty premise. That's the moral hazard of relativism.

      A coupon isn't a bribe since the benefit accrues to the payer. A kickback is corruption because the agent personally benefits to the detriment of his employer (often the people).

    78. Re:I have an idea by sjames · · Score: 2

      Especially once you have handed them such juicy extortion material.

    79. Re:I have an idea by sjames · · Score: 1

      The original question is structured so that option 3 appears to be just a bribe wrapped in sugar coating. 3 would be fine if it was going to happen even if a bribe was not requested and both parties HONESTLY believed it's primary purpose was to foster better communication. A good test there is would the offer still have been made and accepted if the corporate headquarters was in east nowheresville where they roll up the sidewalks at 4P.M.. If it is offered because of the bribe request, then it is a bribe.

      This is really only difficult stuff if you're in the habit of looking for an out for unethical behavior.

    80. Re:I have an idea by RCL · · Score: 1

      ... and don't buy oil.

    81. Re:I have an idea by sjames · · Score: 1

      As an ethical manager, you have few worries about your behavior being reported.

      Are supervisors really that unethical and misbehaving so often that this is really a concern?

      Yes, it's rampant.

    82. Re:I have an idea by Thing+1 · · Score: 1

      Ever fallen down? Expect someone with a camera to record this moment and make sure it can never be forgotten. How about a TV show titled "Funny Falls" where they just edit together some posted videos.

      Reminds of Idiocracy, and "Ow My Balls!"

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    83. Re:I have an idea by HapSlappy_2222 · · Score: 1

      Very well written, thank you. I'll bow to your better judgement (at least I know when I'm beat). Not that you need my permission, but you can go ahead and not suffer me gladly.

    84. Re:I have an idea by HapSlappy_2222 · · Score: 1

      I suppose it depends on how the bribe was requested and subsequently turned down. Option 1 and option 3 are not mutually exclusive (unless you turned down the bribe in such a fashion you've already lost business, in which case you're a poor negotiator).

      For a less corporate-y example, I deal with situations all the time where someone wants me to make them free prints as "samples" before they'll purchase from me. They've seen my work, they don't need samples of it to know it's good. Rather than give them a whole bunch of free work, which is unethical (even if only to myself and my other small list of clients) I'll offer to show them around my shop, watching other work get done, and perhaps take them to lunch to discuss bulk rates etc.

      I don't see this as being unethical in any way, and I also don't see it being a problem for corporate America, so long as the boss in question is authorized to do it. I still don't get why offering option #3 as an alternative to a cash bribe is wrong, especially if it's an established practice for the company (and, in my experience, I've not worked for a company where it wasn't).

      Hell, one of my old co-workers used to smuggle weed and smoke his clients out in his hotel room prior to selling them our software; THAT was unethical. Flying them over from China? Every day business. Maybe I should be arguing from the standpoint of "turning down a bribe appropriately and cleverly, and/or offering company-sanctioned non-bribe alternatives is a valid and very successful 4th option".

    85. Re:I have an idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But to stand an' be still to the Birkin'ead drill is a damn tough bullet to chew

      Rudyard Kipling, Soldier an' Sailor Too

    86. Re:I have an idea by sjames · · Score: 1

      Of course you don't feel bad about it. They are the actual paying customer, not merely an agent. They're not asking for a bribe and you're not giving them one. They're asking you to sweeten the deal a bit and you're making a counter offer that they accept.

      A bribe would be if the customer was a representative of a company that wanted you to make 'sample prints' of their kid's birthday party. It becomes quite clear if they then accept your inferior offer (or if they reject your superior offer in favor of the hack that gave them the free prints) on the behalf of their employer.

    87. Re:I have an idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't see what ethical people would fear from this. Not at the workplace, anyway.

      Why do so many people here lack imagination. Ethical people still do and say stupid things (even if they generally are intelligent), ethical people can still get embarassed.

    88. Re:I have an idea by causality · · Score: 1

      I don't see what ethical people would fear from this. Not at the workplace, anyway.

      Why do so many people here lack imagination. Ethical people still do and say stupid things (even if they generally are intelligent), ethical people can still get embarassed.

      It's not (my) imagination issue, it's (your) reading comprehension issue. The context was fear of getting caught. Too bad ACs don't have reply messages, but here's to hoping you'll read this anyway.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    89. Re:I have an idea by HapSlappy_2222 · · Score: 1

      That's fair. It's the point I missed; it is definitely a bribe to offer the representative a "personal solid" (as in, fly a dude's family to DisneyWorld) in exchange for his ability to coerce the company's co-operation versus offering the company a "corporate solid" (as in flying their representative to my headquarters in Orlando).

      I guess what makes the difference, to me, is whether both companies are aware of and have sanctioned the "solid", and whether it is a vehicle to move business forward. The "personal solid" is very, very easy to figure out (so easy that I wasn't even thinking in these terms, for which I apologize), and shouldn't be done, as you point out. The "corporate solid" isn't necessarily so cut and dry.

      It can be a pretty fine line between business meetings and catering to strip clubs and steakhouses, and even then, some corporations welcome that type of "solid" for their head honchos. Many of my past business associates loved talking business over sushi and saki (or bulgogi and soju), and if you're the one selling, it's an unspoken agreement that you'll pick up the tab. That is not a bribe, but a cost of doing business with certain cultures that simply needs to be accounted for, if you expect to be taken seriously.

      As for cultures that expect to have a *personal* bribe stuffed in their front shirt, well, I'd politely try to find out what is expected of me as a sales person, and if the dude's boss and/or my boss don't sanction the gift, it doesn't happen. A business gift is actually a sanctioned bribe, from a very cynical viewpoint. Regardless, the gift shouldn't ever be worth more than a nice dinner (i.e. couple hundred US dollars at the maximum); this is why most corporations have upper limits on how much value a gift can have and still be accepted.

    90. Re:I have an idea by sjames · · Score: 1

      Yes, it gets a little fuzzier once the blatantly illegal (or at least termination offenses) get removed.

      I suspect the best test there is how the parties feel about it if the dinner happens and the deal doesn't. If the person who picked up the tab feels ripped off, it was a bribe. If the dinner guest now feels obligated, it was a bribe. It's one of those things where the people involved can probably figure it out if they reflect honestly upon it, but proving it would be nearly impossible.

      In any event, yes, the common rules limiting the maximum value make a lot of sense.

    91. Re:I have an idea by Lucractius · · Score: 1

      What about the Traditional and majorly accepted solution: "Women and children first."

      --
      XML - A clever joke would be here if /. didn't mangle tag brackets.
    92. Re:I have an idea by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      No problem, man, really just trying to help (although I readily admit I do have a tendency to be a royal dick about it; sorry, that's just my nature).

      I appreciate your admission and candor, and would welcome debate with you anytime.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    93. Re:I have an idea by Devoidoid · · Score: 1

      Women, children, Red Indians, spacemen, and a sort of idealized version of complete Renaissance Men first!

    94. Re:I have an idea by HapSlappy_2222 · · Score: 1

      It can be tricky for me to keep a level head when something I used to do on a weekly basis with no guilt gets called "unethical", and I missed a few things here and there in my righteous fury.

      I have realized where the disconnect is; the things I used to do were sanctioned by both my company and my client's company, and gifts and travel had a strict value cap, and were expected to be used when appropriate. More often than not, gifts would consist of a nice dinner, or, as stated, bringing them to our offices, though every once in a while I'd fly to them on their dime, which was pretty iffy since I only speak English.

      Dealing so heavily with Japanese and Korean companies, and later on, Chinese companies, truly was one of the most fulfilling business times of my life; it is utterly amazing how different things can be - for instance, the Korean bosses would have their young women hold doors open for them; it was SUPER awkward when I tried to hold the door for her, first, remembering what me mum taught me. Still, much is very much the same, and yes, when ethical boundaries get blurred, you must do your best to hold to your own personal code first, your company's second, and your client's a distant third. Good salesfolks are prepared for this going in.

    95. Re:I have an idea by HapSlappy_2222 · · Score: 1

      Interestingly, when I reflect, it feels more like I, or my company, was being taken advantage of more than it feels like I was offering bribes for sales. I never felt ripped off over cash, although definitely over loss of my time, after a dinner meeting or basketball game, as it was the company's money, earmarked for such, but it was my time spent.

      Admittedly, I've never been the greatest sales person (I was technically..err.. technical sales, meaning I was shitty at both). Still, having my best performing customer tell me my competitor is buying him dinner next week, or took him golfing last Thursday to talk about their latest product, would get me pretty riled up, and I'd give that customer more focused attention instead of the general good-old-boy chats. The customer quite obviously knows what telling me this will do for him; I may have to re-evaluate prices, or I may just end up feeding him for a night as we chat business. I was lucky to have a great product at a competitive price to sell, but I can certainly say that there are high-maintenance customers and low-maintenance customers, and knowing which is which at any given time, and what to do about it, is something I've always struggled with. Nobody comes out and asks for a bribe, but many people want to meet with you at "such and such steakhouse" or "over the suns game" or "over a few drinks at xyz". All that shit happens after business hours, too, which sucks balls after a while. At what point is it ALL considered bribery?

      What made all of this VERY weird, and the reason I left sales, is that these are people you actually do become friends with, but that cannot and must not affect the sales relationship. That old-timey gangster phrase "It's just business." just before a whack is spot on accurate.

    96. Re:I have an idea by HapSlappy_2222 · · Score: 1

      As I reflect even further, it was the same type of "bribery" that my early dating career had, almost exactly. Whether it's a bribe, or just a venue to get down to business, depends on the percentage of cynicism in your blood.

    97. Re:I have an idea by NateTech · · Score: 1

      Adults first. We can have more children. :-)

      --
      +++OK ATH
    98. Re:I have an idea by sjames · · Score: 1

      Still, having my best performing customer tell me my competitor is buying him dinner next week, or took him golfing last Thursday to talk about their latest product, would get me pretty riled up, and I'd give that customer more focused attention instead of the general good-old-boy chats. The customer quite obviously knows what telling me this will do for him; I may have to re-evaluate prices, or I may just end up feeding him for a night as we chat business.

      That's where it was veering dangerously close to bribery. It starts feeling more like the dealings hinge on perks the customer's buyer got rather than the deal itself. It gets complicated since it seems that the deals offered by the competition also had something to do with it, and that part is fair business.

    99. Re:I have an idea by ToddInSF · · Score: 1

      Just because you're in business doesn't mean you should lack imagination and ethics.

  2. Relevant Quote by Frogbert · · Score: 5, Funny

    You know, the courts may not be working any more, but as long as everyone is videotaping everyone else, justice will be done.
    - Marge Simpson

    1. Re:Relevant Quote by Sponge+Bath · · Score: 1

      Och! They no catch me with my breeks doon! I wear a metaphorical kilt! - Groundskeeper Willie

    2. Re:Relevant Quote by fermion · · Score: 1
      We all go to movies? Is what in the movies real? Is there anything real about the situation? Should be arrest Anthony Hopkins as a serial killer? Of course not.

      As we see with dubious edits by James O'Keefe and his co-conspirators of films at NPR and Planned Parenthood, there is little way for the public to know if a film depicts other than a particular viewpoint. Any recording is this way. Take the NBC edits of the 911 call. In the original it appeared that a question was being answered, in the edit it appears that a racial bias was being promoted, in either it is not absolutely clear what the real situation is.

      The problem is that many employees, and many employers, are going to create an adversarial relationship at work. Do what I say or you will be fired. You are picking on me because you don't like me. Employers are going to want more work than the employer feels paid for, the employee is going to want to do only the work that is necessary. Obviously there is motive on both sides to create a biased representation. I don't think employees want to be filmed any more than employers. The lack of context in any film is just too potentially incriminating.

      --
      "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
  3. treat people right by chr1st1anSoldier · · Score: 1

    If you didn't treat your employees like crap then you wouldn't worry about this.

    1. Re:treat people right by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      Well there is sometimes a fine line.
      If the employee is not doing their job correctly, it is your bosses jobs to correct their actions or dismiss them. Now people don't like change and may see this corrective action as treating the employee poorly. If you have a good employee who gets their work done, and is helpful to other members, vs someone who doesn't get anything done and distracts other workers. The boss may allow the first to get by browsing the web, talking to their family during company time. Vs. the latter where he will make sure they follow the company rules to a tee.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    2. Re:treat people right by AdrianKemp · · Score: 1

      A thousand times agreed. If your employees are out to get you, there's a goddamn reason.

    3. Re:treat people right by sjames · · Score: 1

      If the employee is not doing their job correctly, it is your bosses jobs to correct their actions or dismiss them.

      More commonly, the problem is incompetent managers who think name calling, barking out orders, and big brotherism is the same as corrective action.

      The good manager will show the second employee in your example how they can become trusted like the first employee. The second employee may STILL take offense, but if/when they do videotape the boss, they'll just look like an ass calling you out for being a good manager. They might even provide you with all the evidence you need for a justifiable termination if it comes to that.

      In some management philosophies, terminating an employee or poor employee performance is considered a management failure.

    4. Re:treat people right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All it takes is one employee with a personality disorder. Doesn't matter if the other 99 love you when it's raking in views on Youtube. Don't be so stupid.

  4. Not My Boss by GeneralTurgidson · · Score: 1

    His is something along the lines of "the building is burning".

  5. My boss doesn't fear this by oodaloop · · Score: 1

    Because I work in a secure facility, where cellphones, cameras, and anything that transmits are banned. If someone videotaped them, the one with the videocamera would be fired immediately. I guess because I am used to working in this kind of environment, I hadn't thought of this being a problem.

    --
    Tic-Tac-Toe, Global Thermonuclear War, and relationships all have the same winning move.
  6. Hiding under a bed by readin · · Score: 2

    Isn't there a French saying to the effect of "No man will check under his wife's bed unless he himself has hidden under a woman's bed."?

    --
    I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
    1. Re:Hiding under a bed by Psychotria · · Score: 5, Funny

      Isn't there a French saying to the effect of "No man will check under his wife's bed unless he himself has hidden under a woman's bed."?

      Not sure about that because this is Slashdot and I've never had a GF -- let alone a wife. But I do check under my bed before I go to sleep in case there's monsters or ghosts hiding under there. Sometimes I check twice just in case there's a nymphomaniac under there, but no luck yet.

    2. Re:Hiding under a bed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, I've heard the saying in English, except s/under\([^b]*\)bed/behind\1door/g...

    3. Re:Hiding under a bed by roman_mir · · Score: 0

      You are doing it wrong! Everybody knows that most nymphomaniacs hide in

    4. Re:Hiding under a bed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Nymphomaniacs sound like fun, until you actually live with one Mine had daddy issues, and printed out loads of really fucked up fantasy porn stories. While reading those, she raped me, repeatedly. Seven times in one night. After seven times, walking hurts, sitting hurts, and not just outside, but inside, too.

      Say that you decide you don't want any that particular night. Well, that's just too bad, because you're her fuck toy so you just have to put out. Mine used to accuse me of being gay, if I didn't want to bend her over and fuck her stupid five times a night, whether or not she was bleeding or had just got over a yeast infection. What I wanted didn't come into it.

      The emotional and verbal abuse are early indicators that she might need help, but by the time that starts, it's already too late.

      With a nympho, you have no choice. You never do. The more fucked up they are, the more you want to get away from them, and the more abusive they are toward you to make sure they keep you.

      Saying you'd just leave is easy, because you have no emotional attachment. I wasn't strong enough to leave her, she left me, then strung me along for months afterwards. That bitch was incredibly fucked up, and she made sure that she fucked me up, too. It's 14 years later, and I still have issues to deal with.

    5. Re:Hiding under a bed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Thanks for reporting this Anon. It's important for people to understand that in real life, things are not necessarily the same as all the common stories. (And yikes, that sounds like a really rough situation.)

      I hope that your recovery continues swifter than expected.

    6. Re:Hiding under a bed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Daaamn! Did you date my ex or something :o) (pretty much the same situation, 6 years later and I've still not had another GF, having certain trouble forming bonds with girls, trust is surprisingly hard to regain after being badly hurt). I hope you recover fully! Good luck! :)

    7. Re:Hiding under a bed by jitterman · · Score: 1

      VERY funny post :) Still, hang in there - I hope it will happen for you. I was over the average age of "first contact," but eventually all of those things came about in my life. In fact, I just proposed yesterday (seriously, I did) - and yes, she accepted. Second time for both of us, but that's okay. Trust me, if someone would have ME, you have hope!

      --
      For conscience is the wound, and there's naught to staunch it
    8. Re:Hiding under a bed by PPH · · Score: 0

      Nymphomaniacs sound like fun, until you actually live with one

      Live with?? Dude, you're doing it wrong!

      You keep them in their own apartment and drop by whenever. When she starts to get pissy, you just leave until she calms down.

      They are fun to take to the local swinger's club too. When you get tired, you just hand her off to the next guy. And while all the guys are busy piling on her, you get some time with their wives/GFs.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    9. Re:Hiding under a bed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Saying you'd just leave is easy, because you have no emotional attachment.

      If you can't abandon an abusive relationship, then there is something wrong with you. "You don't understand" is just a form of misdirection.

      It's 14 years later, and I still have issues to deal with.

      Consider seeing a professional about that.

    10. Re:Hiding under a bed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's why a nymphomaniac hooker is the best of both worlds. You can probably negotiate her down to a fraction of her normal rate, screw her stupid, leave some cash on the dresser, and never worry about the relationship drama.

  7. so what? by O('_')O_Bush · · Score: 1

    I'm sure. Most employees would fear being filmed by their bosses as well, if they thought that was likely.

    It has much more to do with recording/distributing copies of something that might show ones deficiencies than it has to do with behaving ethically.

    It's the same reason people have a fear of public speaking.

    --
    while(1) attack(People.Sandy);
    1. Re:so what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Bingo.

      This quote made me laugh:

      ""If you think your boss is a fearless, miserable beast whose only worries lie in how well his company or business competes,

      Very few people are really that naive. We know that the boss is a miserable beast because he's afraid of anything which might challenge his position or authority. He doesn't give a shit about the company, he gives a shit about what happens to him as a result of the company's performance.

      It's always the same with these kinds of sociopaths- they really don't give a shit about anything which doesn't affect them personally. Anything which has that potential is feared, and if you observe their behavior you'll see most of their efforts are a direct result of such fears, and are directed towards making sure that when Shit Flies, it doesn't land on them.

    2. Re:so what? by Sarten-X · · Score: 2

      Well, yeah... Bosses are human, too, of course. They don't want to be embarrassed any more than anybody else, but being at a higher position within the company, their reputation is directly tied to many other people's reputations as well. That goes for any other collective entity, too, including churches, charities, sailing crews, police, etc... Nobody wants to have anything recorded, because they know they might make a mistake, and that recording will be used against them, out of context and long after any reasonably limited time. Being nice and friendly regarding recording just isn't worth the risk of having a mistake get blown out of proportion.

      This is Slashdot, though, where we love the Average Joe who does whatever he wants with whatever he wants, and damn the corporations that make it happen! Managers are the personification of the corporation, so we hate them, too. Any story that attacks a company or anyone in the company (except the lowest tier, who's always oppressed and overworked by their superiors) is instantly approved and the hivemind lauds its message.

      I suppose this will head off into the world of "Flamebait" if I continue ranting... There's no "Annoyed at Slashdot" mod.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    3. Re:so what? by 19thNervousBreakdown · · Score: 1

      It's always the same with these kinds of sociopaths- they really don't give a shit about anything which doesn't affect them personally. Anything which has that potential is feared, and if you observe their behavior you'll see most of their efforts are a direct result of such fears, and are directed towards making sure that when Shit Flies, it doesn't land on them.

      Congratulations, you just described every living person. Not that I don't think that people in power are in general shitty people, but if the past is any example, you'd be the exact same way, and so would I.

      --
      <xml><I><am><so><damn>Web 2.0</damn></so></am></I></xml>
    4. Re:so what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That does not describe "every living person", it describes sociopaths. Perhaps you are a sociopath, which is why you identify with that outlook. Do not assume that is normal or desirable in the general population. And visit a psychiatrist. If you think that's a bad idea, that's even more reason to do it.

    5. Re:so what? by 19thNervousBreakdown · · Score: 1

      If you were such an expert on sociopaths, you would know that advising one to go to a psychiatrist is pretty useless advice on a number of levels.

      My (extremely un-sociopathic) point though, was that you aren't nearly as good as you think you are, so you 1.) shouldn't be so quick to judge people who rightly fear their every move being put under a microscope because you can make just about anything look contemptible with the right framing, and 2.) if you've never been put in a shitty situation, you'll be surprised just how big of a difference there is between how good of a person you think you are, and how good of a person you are when you're being threatened. The GGP appears to be somebody who's never had to face that, and dehumanizes anyone in power over him/her.

      --
      <xml><I><am><so><damn>Web 2.0</damn></so></am></I></xml>
  8. Breaking the law? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Like taking a picture of SJ's Mercedes parked in a handicapped spot in front of 1 Infinite Loop Drive?

    Doesn't seem to have stopped him much.

  9. The rapidly expanding boss video market? by mbone · · Score: 2

    The company that paid for the study, note, promises to "securely distribute business video simultaneously over multiple Edge routes," so they probably don't mind some workplace paranoia.

    So, what, they are proposing that companies pay for the secure distribution of their employee's secret boss videos? A delicious thought, but I don't see that as a rapidly expanding enterprise market.

  10. News Flash: Bosses are human by retroworks · · Score: 1

    Boss doesn't want to be filmed on the toilet. Nor do cashiers. Correlation |= causation. The fact that bosses don't like the same thing that potato farmers and pre-school teachers don't like isn't really news.

    --
    Gently reply
  11. A Crackdown By Corporations by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    On the excesses of managers has been long overdue. In the case of the corporation I work for (a major player in film, a #1 three letter TV network, radio and publishing), the HR Departments have been instructed to take any sort of abuse by managers very seriously. It only makes sense to weed out the people who may potentially create a situation where a lawsuit is all but assured. The bosses should be scared because they can no longer act like bullies and buffoons with impunity.

  12. Obvious answer is obvious by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    queue of comments saying that a boss has the same privacy rights as a person in... 3.. 2.. 1... ...

    0...

    -1... -2... -3... -4... :o

  13. Two can play this game by Vinegar+Joe · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The bosses have been spying on employees for years. Feels kinda different now, doesn't it?

    --
    "The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
    1. Re:Two can play this game by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly my thoughts.

      - I used to be the sysadmin for an elementary school, and sick of my incompetent principal, I interviewed for the same position in another elementary school in the same school district. Upon this principal calling my current principal to tell her that he was "taking" me, my principal read me the Riot Act, telling me "I can say things about you to make sure you never work in the district again".

      - Later on, I was the sysadmin for a high school in the same district. The principal dragged me into his office, and offering no further details, asked me "Did you apply for a job?" (I had...several...because of the principal's antics); he most likely got a reference call, or a teacher's spouse, employed somewhere, received my application and ratted me out. He them told me that faculty re-appointments are coming up, and he's going to save mine for last.

      In other words, I was--twice--threatened with termination for looking for another job. Where I work now, management feels comfortable enough with how they compensate and treat us that they practically _beg_ us to look for other jobs--I've joked that, if anything, I'd get in trouble for not doing it.

      One of the worst I had heard of: when I was in college, I knew someone who had a part-time clerical job at a law firm--your typical low-paid undergrad job. Her boss, a lawyer, found out that she had been accepted to law school--and fired her.

      So yeah...sorry about that, bosses, but you've spent way too much f**king time keeping us under the microscope when we're not at work. Our turn.

  14. Duh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    That's kind of like saying "Survey says employees don't like being filmed by their employers." It would be incredibly stressful being under the microscope all the time. Doesn't matter who you are.

  15. The Unrecorded Life is Not Worth Living by stevegee58 · · Score: 1

    Or was that "The Unexamined Life?" I can't remember.

  16. That woudl be ok by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 2

    But only if people would stop being hypocrites and decide that the things they do themselves are appropriate for others to do.

    You can do nothing legally, morally, or ethically wrong at work and still not want to be filmed because you still can do things that people will hate on you for or make fun of you because.

    Like maybe when you listen to music, you rock out and dance in your chair. You don't even know you do this, but you do. Suddenly there's a video of it online and people mock you for it, including people who do it themselves! They are fine to mock others for it, but would themselves not want to be mocked for it.

    Trust me, if I put some cameras on your for a week, I could find enough footage in there that you wouldn't want other people to see. You probably do nothing wrong, but you do things that are embarrassing in one sense or another. If I've the video to pour over, I can find it, and with a NLE I can cut it down to just the shit you don't want others to see.

    Worse still if I've got audio with it. I can get you saying shit out of context and unguarded. Don't tell me you've never badmouthed someone behind their back. Maybe you didn't even do it that directly, you said something like "For such a brilliant guy sometimes he's such an idiot about things because he jumps to conclusions too fast. I wish he'd slow down and think things through." I cut that to just "he's such an idiot."

    Just remember if you aren't willing to have surveillance on you all the time at work, ask yourself why. Those same reasons apply to everyone.

    1. Re:That woudl be ok by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      Really old example of this: Jetson's cartoon where Mr. Spacely brings in a new robot for the office. Robot tapes everything George says and selectively plays back stuff to Mr. Spacely that is "colorful". Sounds remarkably like the office culture has finally caught up to 1960s cartoons.

      Can you think if the response when at some ungarded moment you say something about your boss that is perhaps unflattering? And then have the video of that moment posted for all to see or sent around to all employees?

  17. Which is why I wear a LooxCie all day... by Lumpy · · Score: 1

    Works great, and all the executives act highly polite when they see it on me.

    Fear my life streaming!

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    1. Re:Which is why I wear a LooxCie all day... by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      Cuts both ways. Give it a few years. Video included with bluetooth headsets will be the norm. Everyone will be able to record any and everything around them 24/7 on a FIFO basis. You only keep what you've decided to tag specifically that moment or last available video capture dump.

      Now add the ability to record live to your phone and have it relay to an online website. The Twitterati may like this as will other attention whores. Now doubt the useful idiots will be gawking while flagging each moment of their lives in realtime.

      "+1!! He picked up the COFFEE! EEeeeeekkkkk" He's sooooo hot!

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    2. Re:Which is why I wear a LooxCie all day... by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      Looxcie already works that way. but you CAN dump the whole video buffer if you want. having a 6 hour buffer means you can grab things you missed if they happened in the afternoon.

      The cool part is the button on it when you hit tag grab the previous 30 seconds as well, so you get every bit of that punk kid crunching his crotch on the railing because he was trying to free run past everyone instead of being polite and waiting his turn.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  18. Good! by assertation · · Score: 4, Interesting

    No reason only ordinary people should go through life feeling like an amoebae under a microscope.

    I enjoy the occasional article posted to Slashdot about law enforcement organizations lobbying against police being videod ( it is time to retire the word "filmed" as obsolete ).

    I love the irony of the authorities, at least some of them, being told what they tell us.

    "Gee officer, if you are doing your job and following all the rules then you have nothing to be worried about"

    1. Re:Good! by ChipMonk · · Score: 1

      Furthermore, if the LEO is indeed acting properly, your video will be his/her defense when the perp becomes vengeful.

    2. Re:Good! by assertation · · Score: 1

      The "acting properly" part is my guess as to why they have trouble with being on video

    3. Re:Good! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... being videod ( it is time to retire the word "filmed" as obsolete ).

      We already have a non-film-based replacement for "videoed". It's "recorded". But it doesn't matter anyway because "filmed" is no less correct than saying that you're "writing" code even though you're typing instead of physically writing with a pen or pencil.

  19. Consequences of this fear: End of BYOD? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't think the Slashdot community is thinking of the consequences of this: a crackdown on handheld digital devices in the workplace. This was already a reality at a firm I did business with in India. Workers there had to check their cellphones and tablets at the security desk on their way into the office each day. This was in effect to protect the intellectual property and other secrets (bank account numbers, medical records, etc) that the staff worked with each day.

    This simple fear could end BYOD efforts here, if it's as pervasive as the article suggests.

  20. "People don't want to be filmed" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The article is misleading. People, whether employees or managers, or even CEO's, would prefer not to be filmed. For some, its vanity (my hair!), some its privacy, for others it is fear, and for a small portion, it is guilt.

    Very few people *want* to be filmed and held accountable for their actions. Usually that comes with a tradeoff, like a large salary, professional training, groomers, and so forth.

  21. Now I don't know about your workplace, by javascriptjunkie · · Score: 1

    but this never would have occurred to me. And I don't think my project manager would have thought about it either. At least here, we're way to busy working. If this is a real problem anywhere, there's only going to be one cause. Not enough to do. My advice for any manager who is legitimately worried about this: get busy, and this problem will magically go away. It's uncanny.

  22. Bosses make rules by PPH · · Score: 1, Interesting

    And one of them might be: No recording devices on company property. Another is: Anything recorded on company time/property belongs to the company.

    I've worked at an outfit* where these were the rules. In addition, management refused to contact employees via anything other than company phones, voicemail, e-mail, pagers, etc. In other words, no records were to be left of any business on anything they didn't control.

    *At one point, they were assessed a civil penalty of $500 million for ethical violations. It was civil only because they claimed they were unaware of the applicable federal regulations. Folllowing that, they carried on as before, but secured all intra-company communications that could demonstrate intent associated with subsequent activities.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  23. Survey says... by Senior+Frac · · Score: 1

    I make dog jackets and I just performed a survey. (The participants were lImited to my existing customer base if you're interested). They apparently have a deep fear of their dogs getting cold. We need a press release on this immediately. Alert MSNBC, Foxnews, and TMZ immediately.

  24. Nice propaganda piece by doston · · Score: 1

    "But they're scared, people. They're scared what you might do with your little video tools. They're scared that you might catch them, film them, embarrass them, and therefore destroy them. " Oh yeah, they're real scared. Make the little workers feel slightly empowered for a few minutes, so they'll feel better about running on their little hamster wheels . FYI...there's nothing you could ever do with any of it, because as an employee, you have virtually no legal rights. The most you and all your pitiful co workers might get is a much deserved giggle. Now get back to wage-slavery...the lot of you chattel.

  25. No cameras are allowed in my office by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't allow any cameras, camcorders, audio, or any other recording or data storage device into the building. The security company I employ does 100% search of everyone entering the building (metal detector and millimeter wave backscatter), and requires all employees and visitors to surrender such devices in order to be given access to the building.

    There is also no access to the Internet from inside the building, except from approved terminals, and IT Security scrubs everything in and out.

    It has nothing to do with paranoia about getting caught doing something. It is about protecting company assets from espionage and theft.

  26. No good deed goes unpunished by EnergyScholar · · Score: 1

    My grandfather was a senior executive at a large electronics company doing business in Saudi Arabia. He faced this precise dilemma. He opted for option #1, lost his company a big contract, and was then moved to a more-engineering and less-management position. His replacement presumably paid the bribe (baksheesh), given that his replacement became a vice president.

    In Saudi culture baksheesh is NORMAL and EXPECTED. They think the Americans are weird immoral for not doing things that way.

  27. Some bosses don't mind being filmed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Some bosses don't mind being filmed doing something stupid. Take this boss for example.