Slashdot Mirror
Expect Mandatory 'Big Brother' Black Boxes In All New Cars From 2015
New submitter Kraftwerk writes "A bill already passed by the Senate and set to be rubber stamped by the House would make it mandatory for all new cars in the United States to be fitted with black box data recorders from 2015 onwards. Section 31406 of Senate Bill 1813 (known as MAP-21), calls for 'Mandatory Event Data Recorders' to be installed in all new automobiles and legislates for civil penalties to be imposed against individuals for failing to do so. 'Not later than 180 days after the date of enactment of this Act, the Secretary shall revise part 563 of title 49, Code of Federal Regulations, to require, beginning with model year 2015, that new passenger motor vehicles sold in the United States be equipped with an event data recorder that meets the requirements under that part,' states the bill."
And in all new persons from 2016.
(Maybe old ones too)
Sig? Heil
Most cars already have black boxes."The 'event data recorder' is known commonly as a black box and has been installed in some vehicles since 1996. About 60 million vehicles now have them and 85 percent of new cars this year will come standard with a “black box,” according to National Highway Traffic Safety Administration estimates." -- via NHSTA. There are actually some good things in this bill -- such as establishing that police need a court order to get access to data and that the driving data belongs to the owner of the car not the manufacturer.
The next thing you know, the government will be totally involved in your private lives, such as making decisions about who you can marry and restricting your ability to make decisions about your own body.
(b) Limitations on Information Retrieval-
(1) OWNERSHIP OF DATA- Any data in an event data recorder required under part 563 of title 49, Code of Federal Regulations, regardless of when the passenger motor vehicle in which it is installed was manufactured, is the property of the owner, or in the case of a leased vehicle, the lessee of the passenger motor vehicle in which the data recorder is installed.
(2) PRIVACY- Data recorded or transmitted by such a data recorder may not be retrieved by a person other than the owner or lessee of the motor vehicle in which the recorder is installed unless--
(A) a court authorizes retrieval of the information in furtherance of a legal proceeding;
(B) the owner or lessee consents to the retrieval of the information for any purpose, including the purpose of diagnosing, servicing, or repairing the motor vehicle;
(C) the information is retrieved pursuant to an investigation or inspection authorized under section 1131(a) or 30166 of title 49, United States Code, and the personally identifiable information of the owner, lessee, or driver of the vehicle and the vehicle identification number is not disclosed in connection with the retrieved information; or
(D) the information is retrieved for the purpose of determining the need for, or facilitating, emergency medical response in response to a motor vehicle crash.
Big deal.
What? You think that an insurance company wouldn't try to get out of paying a claim if they could find out whether you were speeding? Information is enabling. People should think long and hard about what they want to enable others (especially the government and corporations) to do with their information.
This Black Box is similar to stuff that's already IN your car, and airplanes, etc. Here is the legislature that will be revised to *require* the devices, so you can look at the details of what's being required.
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=adfa70d7fb0603db957cef53e728148f&rgn=div5&view=text&node=49:6.1.2.3.31&idno=49
Particularly, check the latter sections. "Each vehicle equipped with an EDR must meet the requirements specified in 563.7 for data elements, 563.8 for data format, 563.9 for data capture, 563.10 for crash test performance and survivability, and 563.11 for information in owner's manual."
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/04/19/hate-to-break-it-to-you-but-your-car-likely-has-a-black-box-spying-on-you-already/
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
I suppose its not all that big a deal if I get into a wreck and they want to download the airbag and antilock brake performance data. But at some point, the cops are going to want the capability to jack in to your car's log and download that rather than actually watching for violations. That's when I park the new car and go back to driving my '79 4x4. No event recorder. No working smog devices (old enough to be exempt from testing). No airbags. And the energy absorbing collision crush zone is the Prius I'm about to hit.
Have gnu, will travel.
Thinking long and hard is... oh, hey! The football game is on! Grab a beer and have a seat!
IIRC, one of the big issues with the existing black boxes is that they are in a format only the OEM can read.
I didn't see anything in TFA about making a standard, any news about that?
I'd love the ability to put an app on my laptop or phone & review the data logs my car can produce. There a ton of data in a modern car that could be very useful to an owner. Even more if you're a parent with kids that drive.
Grammer Nazis - I mod you "troll" unless you actually add something on-topic. Yes, I know I have mispellings in my sig.
If the primary source for a link is InfoWars, look for a secondary link from a less biased and/or batshit insane source. If one cannot be found, skip the article please.
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
Then you'll be happy to know that all Dodge Chargers since 2006 already have these installed.
remember when the Republicans used to be all about civil liberties and keeping the government from crawling up your ass?
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Evelyn Beatrice Hall, re Voltaire
And in all new persons from 2016.
(Maybe old ones too)
Citizen. You're concern is noted and quite unnecessary. It is a matter of safety and we all want safety after all.
Well, I don't know about you, but the thing that totally irks me is when my other citizens feel it necessary to run red lights - not only scaring me but threatening the safety of my children, my fellow drivers and myself of course.
We are all in agreement here, I am sure.
Then there is highway and interstate driving. Unfortunately, there are folks who seem to think that obeying traffic law - such as passing and speed limit laws - are optional and there seems to be an attitude of entitlement. We all don't want that.
Anything that helps with the enforcement of such unsafe and deviant behavior is welcomed by everyone including yourself.
Compliance in necessary from all and will be enforced.
Thank you for your cooperation.
Points, condenser, coil. That's it. Also my radio is a tube radio so likely somewhat resistant to EMP. I only drive vehicles '60s or older.
Who would have guessed that the survivors of the apocalypse would be .... grandpa?
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
Actually yes they are all made with UV-resistant black plastic cases. Unlike the black boxes in airplanes which are red or orange.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Your girlfriend left you? You're doing a good job of typing without any hands.
No. Since when did these mythical people ever actually exist?
for a week, when their meds stop arriving.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Maybe the government could contract with Apple and produce a White Box model. People would be lining up around the block to get it installed.
Black Boxes are typically things that scare Slashdot. We don't know how they work, as compared to a documented "white box" solution.
This definition of a "Black Box" is different. It's an event data recorder, meant to be like the orange devices found at airplane crash sites designed to let everybody know the status of the vehicle before it crashed. No big privacy change because most cars already have one, it's just a law change that requires there be standards,. rules, and such for these things in the future.
Bullshit. The primary purpose of automobile insurance is liability insurance. The insurance company most certainly should cover this. His insurance only protects him financially. It protects your ability to recieve compensation if he does something stupid and injures you.
Republicans were ike that post-Eisenhower and pre-George Bush.
Remember when the DEMOCRATS were for small government and individual rights (except blacks)? Now they boss us around as if we were employees of the governments. "Buy insurance." "Throw-away your lightbulbs." "Put black boxes in your cars." "Submit to random VIPR patdowns all across the country."
When both parties are pro-government, then it's only a matter of time until a "you can't trust the government" contingent arrives on the scene. As Jefferson stated, that is the natural tendency of the party system: 1 for more government; 1 for less government. I predict it will happen within the Republican party, thanks to the Ron Paul movement (started 2007).
My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
Define speeding.
On most (translation: ALL) roads in the US, the typical speed of traffic is higher than the posted limit. In fact, driving the limit, some claim, causes more accidents than going with the flow of traffic. In spite of this, traffic deaths have been falling for decades, and non-injury accidents as well, all in the face of increased miles traveled and vehicles on the road.
Insurance covers the driver based on his record of accidents. Its not their job to enforce the law. And its not their job to second guess an evasive maneuver that might exceed the speed limit.
But what makes you sure this will only be used in claims? In addition to mandatory smog inspections, what is to prevent some governments from mandating recorder dumps yearly, followed by citations in the mail?
Suggesting any tiny violation invalidates your insurance simply eliminates insurance totally, because they will always find something in a recorder to invalidate your policy. Is that what you are really advocating? It doesn't sound like you have thought this thru very well.
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
"Buy insurance."
As I understood it, Congress "mandated" that you buy insurance in the same way that they "mandated" you buy new energy efficient doors/windows for your house. Which is to say they didn't mandate it at all. What they did was they offered a tax credit for those that already had insurance, much the same way that there is a tax credit for replacing your older doors/windows with new energy efficient doors/windows.
I keep asking politely if you would care to correct my misunderstanding, but you've yet to do so. Why is that?
Points, condenser, coil. That's it. Also my radio is a tube radio so likely somewhat resistant to EMP. I only drive vehicles '60s or older.
Who would have guessed that the survivors of the apocalypse would be .... grandpa?
Nah, that's just whose car you'll need to steal.
William of Ockham had no beard. The most likely explanation is that it was chewed off by squirrels every morning.
Once cars drive themselves, people will be far more interested in having these black boxes. They're only put off by them while the black boxes could rat them out for going 70 in a 55. As for the devices recording routes, times, destinations and other "private" information, I'm sure the self-driving cars will already log this information as a side-effect of using remote servers for navigation and traffic data. This may already be going on every time you use your smart phone for directions...
Define speeding.
On most (translation: ALL) roads in the US, the typical speed of traffic is higher than the posted limit. In fact, driving the limit, some claim, causes more accidents than going with the flow of traffic.
Good point. In Michigan, there is an 85\15 rule. After studying traffic flow, if it is found that 85% of the cars were going over the posted speed limit, then that community has to up the speed limit.
No, they CLAIMED to be like that. There's a big difference between the two. They were plenty fond Of getting the government involved in people's sex lives, their reproductive health choices, whether or not they used drugs, using the government to mandate school prayer on people, etc. Let us also not forget that it was under Reagan that the country went from being the world's largest creditor to the world's larget debtor (before you try to claim the whole republicans are fiscal conservatives nonsense).
As if insurance companies are going to lower your premiums. What they'll do with this data is, increase premiums on those they now know are 'unsafe'. As in, you actually drive your car instead of keeping it safely in the garage. Or drive through 'unsafe' neighborhoods because it's the only fast way to work. Or drive 'too much', because statistics say an accident is inevitable, and the more you drive, the more likely you are to have an accident. Or, on Jan 1, you acellerated 10 miles an hour over the speed limit and did some sharp turns, no matter that you were manuevering to get out of an accident.
or, you know, if a cop can pull a quick download off it at a routine traffic stop or 'manditory spot inspection' with or without a warrant. Or probable cause. Or because he's bored and his sergeant is hassling him to get that ticket book filled out so that the city can make up the revenue shortfall from lost taxes as people move out of the area searching for jobs. Ignore the 5th Ammendment aspects of that black box for a moment and think it through. Those black boxes are meant to be used, and not necessarily in your favor. You really think they won't be downloaded and analysed at any excuse? You really think there won't be rulings that they somehow magically don't violate your 5th Ammendment rights? Maybe you're insufficiently paranoid.
Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
Many people don't have car insurance.
- people who walk
- people who ride a horse (my Amish neighbors)
- people who use a buggy (local farmers)
- people who ride a bike
- or train
- or bus
- or cycle
FURTHERMORE and this is the most important part: The Member States have the power to mandate insurance, but the central Congress does not. Read amendment 10 of our bill of rights.
So if Massachusetts wants to mandate the purchase of hospital insurance, they can. I think that's anti-freedom idea but, per the 10th, they have the authority. The central government does not.
My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
I dont remember them ever malfunctioning. The officer just explained that gosh, he'd love to show me the data but seeing as he told me to stay in the car then looking at the radar would be Disobeying A Police Officer, Interfering With An Investigation, Resisting Arrest, and possibly Accidentally Falling On A Nightstick In A Public Place. Not to mention that He Never Said That, and if I could prove he did it would be a Violation Of Federal Wiretap Laws (speaking in leading caps is a cool skill they teach in cop school).
Variation on the Jedi Mind Trick: "You dont need to see the radar. I gave you a break so you should thank me for this ticket. These are not the droids you're looking for. Move along."
Wow you are...just....
Wow.
You can breath and sit still at the same time, right? I don't mean chew gum and walk. That would clearly be out of your league.
Let me use small words so I don't lose you:
The re-pub-li-cans made the Tea Party so they control the "you can't trust gov'ment" people. The Dem-o-crats would like to do the same thing with the "99%/Occupy" thingy but don't know how. This way both parties can dump the 'less gov'ment' nut-bags (from their point of view) into the non-party parties and pretend to listen to them. In reality what they do is point and laugh. "look at the fringe nut cases. They are not part of our party."
Case closed.
"Republicans were ike that post-Eisenhower and pre-George Bush."
Richard Nixon was hardly a defender of civil liberty.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
No, but if the states refuse to enact such a law, then they don't get any federal funding for the roads. This is the same way that the federal government got the speed limits reduced, and the legal drinking age raised.
For a while now I've wondered if it would be feasible to make these black boxes exchange info when a collision occurs, making it much harder to get away with a hit-and-run. As the car would broadcast the data upon detecting a collision, receivers could also be put up at intersections to direcly communicate to the local authorities, which would help with car/pedestrian hit-and-run events where there is no victim black box to otherwise receive the data.
My webcomic
It has been said that the TSA/Border Patrol can setup checkpoints something like 30? miles from a border
Try 100 miles.
2/3 of the US population lives within 100 miles of a border (which includes coastlines), which is effectively a Constitution-Free zone.
Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?
Yeah, he was the one who desegregated schools under the law passed during the Kennedy administration. Where were Kennedy and Johnson on that one? As a Senator he voted for the civil rights bills that came to vote. As VP, he helped shepherd the Civil Rights Act of 1957 through Congress. Nixon implemented the Philadelphia Plan in 1970 - the first significant federal affirmative action program. He endorsed the Equal Rights Amendment when it went to the states for ratification. There are lots of true negative things you can say about Nixon, but his Civil Rights record isn't one of them.
The US government have made it clear that we have no inalienable rights; any we do not defend vigorously will be taken.
Republicans have gone so far right and the Democrats have gone so far left
Minor correction: The Republicans have gone so brutally far to the right that the Democrats' gentle drift to the right appears to be leftwards motion; It is only an optical illusion though.
Although if you really believe Democrats are in favor of communism then facts may not be terribly interesting to you.
"All these years believing you're the signified monkey, only to find out you're just a big hunk of nobody cares."
Father to Daughter/Son
Hmm, there seems to be some abnormality in the data, the blackbox registered that you were driving on a saw-tooth road, yet the vehicle was not moving.
Load New Commander (Y/N)?
Does anyone else think it's a very bad idea to allow people who overestimate their own driving ability to set the speed limits?
Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
Justice Scalia objected to the Independent Counsel law because it allowed the prosecutor to dig into the President's affairs to try to find a crime, any crime, that had been committed. This differed from traditional law enforcement where there was first an allegation of a specific crime and then the investigators looked for evidence of that crime.
The black box is like the former. It is something the police can look at to see if any crimes were committed rather than reacting to a crime that was known to have been committed.
This might not be so bad if we weren't drowning in traffic laws (and every other kind of law). The truth is that it is nearly impossible to drive safely while following all the traffic laws. If the police want to nail you for something, they can follow you around for a while and probably get you. But at least you have a decent chance of knowing they're following, and they have to stop you the moment you commit the offense.
But the black box allows another approach. For whatever reason, the police decide they don't like you. Now they can pull your black box and check your driving history to find something - anything - at any time. And you may not even remember the event (that time you had to accelerate to avoid the deer - well you exceeded the speed limit and since you don't remember it you can't offer any defense).
Politicians and celebrities have to be on guard all the time because there is always some paparazzi or other camera on them. The rest of us don't want to live like that.
I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.