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Expect Mandatory 'Big Brother' Black Boxes In All New Cars From 2015
New submitter Kraftwerk writes "A bill already passed by the Senate and set to be rubber stamped by the House would make it mandatory for all new cars in the United States to be fitted with black box data recorders from 2015 onwards. Section 31406 of Senate Bill 1813 (known as MAP-21), calls for 'Mandatory Event Data Recorders' to be installed in all new automobiles and legislates for civil penalties to be imposed against individuals for failing to do so. 'Not later than 180 days after the date of enactment of this Act, the Secretary shall revise part 563 of title 49, Code of Federal Regulations, to require, beginning with model year 2015, that new passenger motor vehicles sold in the United States be equipped with an event data recorder that meets the requirements under that part,' states the bill."
And in all new persons from 2016.
(Maybe old ones too)
Sig? Heil
If they are indeed just local data recorders, I don't really see a problem, as they could be used to make insurance arguments a lot less painful.
It's only really a privacy concern for the overly paranoid if they are data-transmission-enabled.
Most cars already have black boxes."The 'event data recorder' is known commonly as a black box and has been installed in some vehicles since 1996. About 60 million vehicles now have them and 85 percent of new cars this year will come standard with a “black box,” according to National Highway Traffic Safety Administration estimates." -- via NHSTA. There are actually some good things in this bill -- such as establishing that police need a court order to get access to data and that the driving data belongs to the owner of the car not the manufacturer.
The next thing you know, the government will be totally involved in your private lives, such as making decisions about who you can marry and restricting your ability to make decisions about your own body.
(b) Limitations on Information Retrieval-
(1) OWNERSHIP OF DATA- Any data in an event data recorder required under part 563 of title 49, Code of Federal Regulations, regardless of when the passenger motor vehicle in which it is installed was manufactured, is the property of the owner, or in the case of a leased vehicle, the lessee of the passenger motor vehicle in which the data recorder is installed.
(2) PRIVACY- Data recorded or transmitted by such a data recorder may not be retrieved by a person other than the owner or lessee of the motor vehicle in which the recorder is installed unless--
(A) a court authorizes retrieval of the information in furtherance of a legal proceeding;
(B) the owner or lessee consents to the retrieval of the information for any purpose, including the purpose of diagnosing, servicing, or repairing the motor vehicle;
(C) the information is retrieved pursuant to an investigation or inspection authorized under section 1131(a) or 30166 of title 49, United States Code, and the personally identifiable information of the owner, lessee, or driver of the vehicle and the vehicle identification number is not disclosed in connection with the retrieved information; or
(D) the information is retrieved for the purpose of determining the need for, or facilitating, emergency medical response in response to a motor vehicle crash.
Big deal.
We should go back to private roads so this isn't an issue.
soooo glad I just ordered a new 2012 hemi Charger.
This Black Box is similar to stuff that's already IN your car, and airplanes, etc. Here is the legislature that will be revised to *require* the devices, so you can look at the details of what's being required.
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=adfa70d7fb0603db957cef53e728148f&rgn=div5&view=text&node=49:6.1.2.3.31&idno=49
Particularly, check the latter sections. "Each vehicle equipped with an EDR must meet the requirements specified in 563.7 for data elements, 563.8 for data format, 563.9 for data capture, 563.10 for crash test performance and survivability, and 563.11 for information in owner's manual."
By the early '70s, most cars had electronic ignition (even if they still had a set of points), which is also vulnerable to EMP. Also, your radio is vulnerable even if you have a diesel engine. And your 8-track tapes will be erased (and not only will nothing of value will be lost, but the world will be a better place).
Let's call it what it is, Anti-Social Media.
Can you find a source for this information a bit more reliable than Infowars? I accidentally clicked on it and now I have to go wash my mouse and monitor.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/04/19/hate-to-break-it-to-you-but-your-car-likely-has-a-black-box-spying-on-you-already/
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
Do we need a car analogy for this one?
I suppose its not all that big a deal if I get into a wreck and they want to download the airbag and antilock brake performance data. But at some point, the cops are going to want the capability to jack in to your car's log and download that rather than actually watching for violations. That's when I park the new car and go back to driving my '79 4x4. No event recorder. No working smog devices (old enough to be exempt from testing). No airbags. And the energy absorbing collision crush zone is the Prius I'm about to hit.
Have gnu, will travel.
with a mandatory "electronic" device. No government official will hamper with it of try to frame people by hacking the system
by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
Nothing in says you cannot disconnect the box. Paranoid much?
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
Thinking long and hard is... oh, hey! The football game is on! Grab a beer and have a seat!
IIRC, one of the big issues with the existing black boxes is that they are in a format only the OEM can read.
I didn't see anything in TFA about making a standard, any news about that?
I'd love the ability to put an app on my laptop or phone & review the data logs my car can produce. There a ton of data in a modern car that could be very useful to an owner. Even more if you're a parent with kids that drive.
Grammer Nazis - I mod you "troll" unless you actually add something on-topic. Yes, I know I have mispellings in my sig.
Points, condenser, coil. That's it. Also my radio is a tube radio so likely somewhat resistant to EMP. I only drive vehicles '60s or older.
If the primary source for a link is InfoWars, look for a secondary link from a less biased and/or batshit insane source. If one cannot be found, skip the article please.
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
I WILL NOT buy ANOTHER car with a "Black Box".
FTFY. Your Wrangler has one already.
remember when the Republicans used to be all about civil liberties and keeping the government from crawling up your ass?
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Evelyn Beatrice Hall, re Voltaire
And in all new persons from 2016.
(Maybe old ones too)
Citizen. You're concern is noted and quite unnecessary. It is a matter of safety and we all want safety after all.
Well, I don't know about you, but the thing that totally irks me is when my other citizens feel it necessary to run red lights - not only scaring me but threatening the safety of my children, my fellow drivers and myself of course.
We are all in agreement here, I am sure.
Then there is highway and interstate driving. Unfortunately, there are folks who seem to think that obeying traffic law - such as passing and speed limit laws - are optional and there seems to be an attitude of entitlement. We all don't want that.
Anything that helps with the enforcement of such unsafe and deviant behavior is welcomed by everyone including yourself.
Compliance in necessary from all and will be enforced.
Thank you for your cooperation.
Points, condenser, coil. That's it. Also my radio is a tube radio so likely somewhat resistant to EMP. I only drive vehicles '60s or older.
Who would have guessed that the survivors of the apocalypse would be .... grandpa?
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
Oh great, my girlfriend left me last weekend, and now this. Shit comes in threes. Whats next?
Actually yes they are all made with UV-resistant black plastic cases. Unlike the black boxes in airplanes which are red or orange.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Poor you, that's just before cars started to get good. Just one year newer and you could drive a 240Z.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
My old car has ~140,000 miles so it's about that time. Maybe a diesel Beetle or a hybrid Insight. No black boxes please.
I wish I could get a Lupo 3L. Almost 90mpg highway is impressive.
My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
your car's [sic] black box will mostly be used to protect the people who crashed into you
Not necessarily. It could also protect you - If you're in a crash and the police insist you were speeding the black box could prove you weren't, or it could prove you were braking not accelerating etc.
Your girlfriend left you? You're doing a good job of typing without any hands.
No. Since when did these mythical people ever actually exist?
Beyond saying they were and actually acting that way? No, I don't remember that.
Requiring whisper net's for remote storage of the information. Allowing data retrieval and warrant collection without having to physical access to the vehicle.
If you were ever burned on someone "this persons word vs this persons word" on an accident, this additional data can be useful to find the truth.
What, do you guys want an achievement system to numb your anger too?
for a week, when their meds stop arriving.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Because Grandpa is too old to give a crap about cockroaches, so he's perfectly willing to share a ravaged Earth with them
Did you also walk uphill both ways to school in the snow without shoes? Did they still say 'dickity'? Was tying an onion to your belt still the style at the time?
Great idea, make it seem like the government wants this rather than insurance companies. That'll whip up some opposition.
Likewise if Facebook were called Fedbook I don't think people would use it so much...
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Maybe the government could contract with Apple and produce a White Box model. People would be lining up around the block to get it installed.
Black Boxes are typically things that scare Slashdot. We don't know how they work, as compared to a documented "white box" solution.
This definition of a "Black Box" is different. It's an event data recorder, meant to be like the orange devices found at airplane crash sites designed to let everybody know the status of the vehicle before it crashed. No big privacy change because most cars already have one, it's just a law change that requires there be standards,. rules, and such for these things in the future.
Everyone knows the constitution doesn't apply when you're doing something in a public space.
Can these black boxes have a "Clear" button on them?
Republicans were ike that post-Eisenhower and pre-George Bush.
Remember when the DEMOCRATS were for small government and individual rights (except blacks)? Now they boss us around as if we were employees of the governments. "Buy insurance." "Throw-away your lightbulbs." "Put black boxes in your cars." "Submit to random VIPR patdowns all across the country."
When both parties are pro-government, then it's only a matter of time until a "you can't trust the government" contingent arrives on the scene. As Jefferson stated, that is the natural tendency of the party system: 1 for more government; 1 for less government. I predict it will happen within the Republican party, thanks to the Ron Paul movement (started 2007).
My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
DOWN WITH BIG BROTHER
DOWN WITH BIG BROTHER
DOWN WITH BIG BROTHER
DOWN WITH BIG BROTHER
DOWN WITH BIG BROTHER
DOWN WITH BIG BROTHER
DOWN WITH BIG BROTHER
DOWN WITH BIG BROTHER
anyways, the book was about information control. The internet has made Big Brother impossible.
As for using using data collected about you, fight for controls. Black boxes are a good idea, for many reasons. Just fight the ability for it to be accessed randomly.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Does the AC GP seriously not know what a black box is and why that term is appropriate in this context, or is he/she trying (and failing) to be funny? And for those that do not know, the "black boxes" in airplanes are painted red/orange to make them easier to find at a crash site.
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
"Buy insurance."
As I understood it, Congress "mandated" that you buy insurance in the same way that they "mandated" you buy new energy efficient doors/windows for your house. Which is to say they didn't mandate it at all. What they did was they offered a tax credit for those that already had insurance, much the same way that there is a tax credit for replacing your older doors/windows with new energy efficient doors/windows.
I keep asking politely if you would care to correct my misunderstanding, but you've yet to do so. Why is that?
remember when the Republicans used to be all about civil liberties and keeping the government from crawling up your ass?
If that was the case, then why have laws at all? I don't understand how anybody can feel aggrieved that they're not being allowed to break the law. Don't get me wrong, if you want to speed or act like a dick in traffic, go right ahead - but whining that somebody is gonna try and catch you out isn't exactly the outlaw way. Oh, what's that you say Sundance? The sheriff is watching the bank? That's an outrageous invasion of my privacy. Hold my gun while I write my congressman...
Points, condenser, coil. That's it. Also my radio is a tube radio so likely somewhat resistant to EMP. I only drive vehicles '60s or older.
Who would have guessed that the survivors of the apocalypse would be .... grandpa?
Nah, that's just whose car you'll need to steal.
William of Ockham had no beard. The most likely explanation is that it was chewed off by squirrels every morning.
They are only used after a crash.
Yeah, I really trust the government with being honest about my privacy.
Also, warrants are easy to get.
Nevermind. This is a good thing. I was ripping at first. The Black Box has been with GM cars since 1994 and my 2010 Jeep Wrangler has it too. Basically the vehicles recorder stores the last 15 seconds of data this way if you die in a crash, data can be retrieved from the black box to see if the vehicle failed in any way. Also the data can help you if you are in an accident and the accident was not your fault. It can not be used to monitor your driving.
Once cars drive themselves, people will be far more interested in having these black boxes. They're only put off by them while the black boxes could rat them out for going 70 in a 55. As for the devices recording routes, times, destinations and other "private" information, I'm sure the self-driving cars will already log this information as a side-effect of using remote servers for navigation and traffic data. This may already be going on every time you use your smart phone for directions...
The first 240Zs were made in 1969. I had one of those. Sadly they were made with such thin sheet metal that all but a few showcars (or otherwise obsessively maintained cars) have rusted through. Awesome car, though.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
No, they CLAIMED to be like that. There's a big difference between the two. They were plenty fond Of getting the government involved in people's sex lives, their reproductive health choices, whether or not they used drugs, using the government to mandate school prayer on people, etc. Let us also not forget that it was under Reagan that the country went from being the world's largest creditor to the world's larget debtor (before you try to claim the whole republicans are fiscal conservatives nonsense).
I think they all died off when Reagan was elected.
It could also help you to prove that you weren't speeding, of course...
Just like dashcams in police cruisers could help you prove your innocence ... Except that they magically seem to malfunction whenever they had information that would help you.
>>> they offered a tax credit for those that already had insurance
No they didn't. I don't have insurance, but both my parents and my brother do, and they get NO tax credits or deductions on their 1040 return.
>>>I keep asking politely if you would care to correct my misunderstanding, but you've yet to do so
This is the first time I've heard you ask.
My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
Whoever told you that is your enemy."
One of my favourite quotes. Seemed relevent.
"XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve your problem, use more." - Anonymous Coward
I have to have proof of insurance when I go to the DMV to put register my car and get plates for it. How is insurance not mandatory?
sent from my slashdot browser.
Many people don't have car insurance.
- people who walk
- people who ride a horse (my Amish neighbors)
- people who use a buggy (local farmers)
- people who ride a bike
- or train
- or bus
- or cycle
FURTHERMORE and this is the most important part: The Member States have the power to mandate insurance, but the central Congress does not. Read amendment 10 of our bill of rights.
So if Massachusetts wants to mandate the purchase of hospital insurance, they can. I think that's anti-freedom idea but, per the 10th, they have the authority. The central government does not.
My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
In that act is also this little bit, for those of us who can't detect humans in the back seat after we turn the car off.
SEC. 31504. UNATTENDED PASSENGER REMINDERS.
(a) Safety Research Initiative- Not later than 2 years after the date of enactment of this Act, the Secretary shall complete research into the development of performance requirements to warn drivers that a child or other unattended passenger remains in a rear seating position after the vehicle motor is disengaged.
(b) Specifications- In carrying out subsection (a), the Secretary shall consider performance requirements that--
(1) sense weight, the presence of a buckled seat belt, or other indications of the presence of a child or other passenger; and
(2) provide an alert to prevent hyperthermia and hypothermia that can result in death or severe injuries.
(c) Rulemaking or Report-
(1) RULEMAKING- Not later than 1 year after the completion of each research and testing initiative required under subsection (a), the Secretary shall initiate a rulemaking proceeding to issue a Federal motor vehicle safety standard if the Secretary determines that such a standard meets the requirements and considerations set forth in subsections (a) and (b) of section 30111 of title 49, United States Code.
(2) REPORT- If the Secretary determines that the standard described in subsection (a) does not meet the requirements and considerations set forth in subsections (a) and (b) of section 30111 of title 49, United States Code, the Secretary shall submit a report describing the reasons for not prescribing such a standard to--
(A) the Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation of the Senate; and
(B) the Committee on Energy and Commerce of the House of Representatives.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Inconceivable!
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sic
No. They only ever wanted to keep the government from investigating the exploits of their wealthy benefactors.
The Member States have the power to mandate insurance, but the central Congress does not.
I thought the Congress had power to require insurance for vehicles operated on "post roads".
I was wondering how much data is saved before it is overwritten with new data, and found this in the text of the bill...
The EDR is designed to record data related to vehicle dynamics and safety systems for a short period of time, typically 30 seconds or less.
Thirty seconds would make this completely useless as evidence for a speeding stop or red light stop, etc. Just make sure you are driving under the speed limit for at least 30 seconds before coming to a stop and you've wiped out any evidence.
The internet has made Big Brother impossible.
Wow, is there anything you won't say, no matter how absurd, to excuse addiitonal government power, geekoid? Anything at all? Your posts in this story have gone beyond "I'm from the government and I'm here to help you" to "Daddy only hits me because he loves me".
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Points, condenser, coil. That's it. Also my radio is a tube radio so likely somewhat resistant to EMP. I only drive vehicles '60s or older.
Who would have guessed that the survivors of the apocalypse would be .... grandpa?
Nah, that's just whose car you'll need to steal.
That may not be funny. I have an acquaintance who is a self-defined survivalist. He stockpiles weapons and ammunition. I asked him why he didn't stockpile food, fuel, communications gear or any of the other stuff survivalists usually have in their garage. He said because with weapons, he can acquire everything else he needs. I guess that includes a car old enough to have mechanical ignition.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
Yeah, it's kinda hard to justify a TSA Keystone Kop in every car, so they're doing the next best thing. After all, we wouldn't want those terrorrorrorrorrists to win, now, would we?
Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
That part of the law has not gone into effect. If I am not mistaken it goes in to effect in stages up until 2014 or something.
Spread FUD about shit you don't understand why don't cha?
And how hard is it to get a warrant?
The Fourth Amendment states that the standard for a warrant in the United States is "probable cause supported by oath or affirmation". So getting a warrant is as hard as convincing a judge that there exists, or existed at the time of the search, a reasonable belief that a person or property is connected to a crime that has been committed. I realize that the next question is what constitutes a reasonable belief, and in hard cases, "reasonable" has tended to mean "which party's legal counsel is wearing the nicer suit".
It is slightly different, with the energy savings, home loans, dependent child deduction... they are deductions. While insurance is a penalty. I for one am very curious what the supreme court rules, is it simply a matter of wording, that the law simply needs to give a $5k deduction to those with insurance and raise taxes enough to cover the difference. Or does the raise taxes and lower the taxes have to be done in different laws to be legal. Or will a negative ruling essentially through all these tax deductions in areas not specified as part of congresses deamed powers into the scrap heap. I for one am a supporter of the bill, but would be tickled if it did through all those deductions out (especially since I used none of them, and thus paid $20k in payroll taxes this year.)
Wow you are...just....
Wow.
You can breath and sit still at the same time, right? I don't mean chew gum and walk. That would clearly be out of your league.
Let me use small words so I don't lose you:
The re-pub-li-cans made the Tea Party so they control the "you can't trust gov'ment" people. The Dem-o-crats would like to do the same thing with the "99%/Occupy" thingy but don't know how. This way both parties can dump the 'less gov'ment' nut-bags (from their point of view) into the non-party parties and pretend to listen to them. In reality what they do is point and laugh. "look at the fringe nut cases. They are not part of our party."
Case closed.
Care to explain what error was present in the original that you reproduced in quoting in this phrase? Because I don't see it:
I fail to see what's incorrect about "car's" in this sentence - it is the possessive form, meaning "the black box belonging to your car," which appears to be exactly what was intended, and entirely grammatically correct.
What happens if the silly thing breaks?
I've actually thought about putting one in my own car. I was sitting at a stop light maybe 10 years ago when some moron teenager was speeding down the road at 45 mph while fishing around for CDs on the floor of his car. He hit the car BEHIND me without so much as tapping his brakes. That car smashed into mine, totalling it. My car then hit the guy in front of me. Imagine my outrage when talking to some insurance drone who told me he had to talk to the other drivers to see if they felt one impact or two. The theory being that if it was one, it was because *I* was moving and hit the guy in front of me, causing them all to pile into me. If it was more than one, the story was as I related.
I wouldn't have minded having a /var/log somewhere that said 22:34:02: velocity 0.00 m/s accel 0.00 g throttle 0% brakes 5%....22:34:45 velocity 35.33 m/s accel 12.1 g throttle 0% brakes 0%. Hard data would have shown beyond a shadow of a doubt I was in a stationary car that suddenly accelerated like it was hit by a moving SUV.
Are you suggesting that everyone chooses to get pregnant? Even women who are raped?
Seriously, no one wants this. It will get recalled. What we want is improvement like Google-car. Mark my word.
Help eliminate accidental speeding tickets.
This is also, AFAIK, a state level mandate, not a federal level mandate.
...and the last time I checked, about 1/3 of the drivers in California were also uninsured, despite the laws.
As to the 10th Amendment, Congress has all but ignored that for 100+ years, and especially after FDR.
--- Bill
"Republicans were ike that post-Eisenhower and pre-George Bush."
Richard Nixon was hardly a defender of civil liberty.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
Considering you haven't even bothered to create an account why in the hell should anyone give a shit that you are leaving?
Don't know something? Look it up. Still don't know? Then ask.
Just in case this gets lost in here, I want to point out that Democrats in the Senate sponsored this bill. The House is GOP-controlled, so blaming this on Republicans (in addition to Democrats) is premature until we see the results.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
Im sure a lot of LEOs are great friends with a few of the Judges that cover their "beat"
Done correctly an officer could pop down to a judges House to get a sig if need be.
Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
You sir have a bright future as a politician. Calling a penalty a tax credit is akin to calling a smaller tax increase than you originally wanted a tax cut.
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
"I only drive vehicles '60s or older."
I have points distributors accumulated (not installed, I hate adjusting points under a hood!) which will fit my much later 1980s V-8s, and my 1988 Harley runs a points conversion so I can kickstart it (also a conversion).
I don't see EMP destroying all the simple Hall effect etc ignition boxes though, and if it can reach into my "Faraday cage" shipping container storage/shop units and zap the parts on the shelf then color me impressed!
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
Republicans were ike that post-Eisenhower and pre-George Bush. Remember when the DEMOCRATS were for small government and individual rights (except blacks)? Now they boss us around as if we were employees of the governments. "Buy insurance." "Throw-away your lightbulbs." "Put black boxes in your cars." "Submit to random VIPR patdowns all across the country."
When both parties are pro-government, then it's only a matter of time until a "you can't trust the government" contingent arrives on the scene. As Jefferson stated, that is the natural tendency of the party system: 1 for more government; 1 for less government. I predict it will happen within the Republican party, thanks to the Ron Paul movement (started 2007).
Hopefully it'll be the occupy movement instead.
It has been said that the TSA/Border Patrol can setup checkpoints something like 30? miles from a border so all it would take is for them to setup a checkpoint NEAR say an airport (or some highway commonly used for travel from the border) and you get tagged.
Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
That is the key...
But what is this Constitution you speak of? I thought the majority could do what they wanted?
The Big Brother Black Box will be installed inside YOU!
Republicans were ike that post-Eisenhower and pre-George Bush.
Yes, we all remember those proud defenders of civil liberties, Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
"But let's not do anything practical to actually reduce gas prices (drill)"
Drilling doesn't reduce gas prices. Crude oil /= motor fuel.
The US __exports__ gasoline. The free market sets gas prices, and no one has an economic incentive to sell you cheap fuel.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/story/2011-12-31/united-states-export/52298812/1
"Gasoline supplies are being exported to the highest bidder, says Tom Kloza, chief oil analyst at Oil Price Information Service. "It's a world market," he says.
Refining companies won't say how much they make by selling fuel overseas. But analysts say those sales are likely generating higher profits per gallon than they would have generated in the U.S. Otherwise, they wouldn't occur."
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
How about the library of congress
http://thomas.loc.gov./ Search by bill number s. 1813
You might not like the source but google isnt that hard to use.
Fucktards
Points, condenser, coil. That's it. Also my radio is a tube radio so likely somewhat resistant to EMP. I only drive vehicles '60s or older.
Who would have guessed that the survivors of the apocalypse would be .... grandpa?
Nah, that's just whose car you'll need to steal.
That may not be funny. I have an acquaintance who is a self-defined survivalist. He stockpiles weapons and ammunition. I asked him why he didn't stockpile food, fuel, communications gear or any of the other stuff survivalists usually have in their garage. He said because with weapons, he can acquire everything else he needs. I guess that includes a car old enough to have mechanical ignition.
Yeah, that strategy will work great in the short term, right up until the moment his ass gets blown away by the first guy who had the foresight to stockpile food, seeds, plus guns and ammunition, and allies to boot.
My guess is your guy, if he's lucky, will end up joining some roving band of thieves which steals and plunders, generally making a nuisance of themselves and holding up progress, until their inevitable capture, trial, conviction, and hanging.
If he's not so lucky, my door will be the first one he knocks on.
shall require event data recorders to capture and store data related to motor vehicle safety covering a reasonable time period before, during, and after a motor vehicle crash or airbag deployment, including a rollover;
Basically record what happened right before a "crash" (whatever that is). Doesn't sound all that draconian to me - speed, brakes, lights, etc.
Given that cars already have black boxes that record this data, why do you care if a law is passed about how it can be used? You claim the government pays no heed to what the law says they can do, so why do you care if the law is changed in this regard?
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
For a while now I've wondered if it would be feasible to make these black boxes exchange info when a collision occurs, making it much harder to get away with a hit-and-run. As the car would broadcast the data upon detecting a collision, receivers could also be put up at intersections to direcly communicate to the local authorities, which would help with car/pedestrian hit-and-run events where there is no victim black box to otherwise receive the data.
My webcomic
That is set by your state, not the feds.
And not all states have the same insurance requirements. I think some don't require it...and I believe a couple will let you prove you have a bond or money in escrow in lieu of insurance.
So, that is a state thing my friend.
Hmm...that reminds me...where in the Constitutions does it authorize the Federal govt to put a data recording and tracking device on my car?
Seriously...how is THAT interstate commerce?!?!
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Per the 10th they MAY have the authority. The next line of protections of our liberties are the state constitutions which may or may not reserve that power to the state.
The US government have made it clear that we have no inalienable rights; any we do not defend vigorously will be taken.
Um.. I said no such thing. Unless you consider having health insurance to be a "penalty".
Again, as I understood it, they raised taxes across the board to pay for something that they were already paying for. If an uninsured patient is brought into the ER, treated, and then it turns out they are unable to foot the bill, it was Uncle Sam that picked up the tab. Perhaps not directly from the patient or the hospital, but it worked its way to Uncle Sam. If you have insurance, then your bill was picked up by your insurance company. As a result, you got a tax credit* since Uncle Sam would never need to pick up your tab.
Now if you'd like to argue that Uncle Sam shouldn't be picking up the tab in the first place, fair enough. I can respect that answer. But if you think that the across the board tax increase should be removed, and that Uncle Sam should continue picking up the tab on people who are unable to pay their hospital bills, well... I'd hate to see your home budget.
*I did see the part about how the tax credit isn't yet in place, thank you to the person who informed us of that.
Doesnt this violate privacy laws? Your car is your own private property. Random people can not just use your car at will. You have a key, it locks the doors, starts the engine. It is private property. It is yours. If someone else takes it, they are stealing private property under the law.
So we've established that a car is private property. How can they log and track your private property?
The only possible reason is because it is on public roads, but so what? If you're simply driving your vehicle, why should anyone have the ability to log what happens in your vehicle?
remember when the Republicans used to be all about civil liberties and keeping the government from crawling up your ass?
The article CLEARLY states that two top Democrat politicians in the Senate which is run by Democrats pushed hard to pass this. The problem seems to be that the Republicans have gone so far right and the Democrats have gone so far left that they have met in the 180 degree neversphere. There is ZERO difference in either party's ultimate goal, enslavement of the public, only in the method. Capitalism or Communism.
Since when is "public safety" the root password to the Constitution?
Yeah, he was the one who desegregated schools under the law passed during the Kennedy administration. Where were Kennedy and Johnson on that one? As a Senator he voted for the civil rights bills that came to vote. As VP, he helped shepherd the Civil Rights Act of 1957 through Congress. Nixon implemented the Philadelphia Plan in 1970 - the first significant federal affirmative action program. He endorsed the Equal Rights Amendment when it went to the states for ratification. There are lots of true negative things you can say about Nixon, but his Civil Rights record isn't one of them.
The US government have made it clear that we have no inalienable rights; any we do not defend vigorously will be taken.
speeding? automatic ticket.
oxygen sensor broken, but you just ignored it and drove around with the check engine light on? environmental fine.
oh, you commute 60 miles one way to work? that's in excess of what the green czar said a reasonable commute should be, carbon fine.
tire air sensors reporting low air pressure? you're wasting fuel efficiency & gas, carbon fine.
didn't put your seatbelt on until AFTER you puled out on to a public road? seatbelt fine.
the possibilies are endless.
Legal precedent disagrees.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
...new passenger motor vehicles sold in the United States be equipped with an event data recorder that meets the requirements under that part.
This means that a) personal imports wouldn't be required to have them and b) kit cars you build yourself wouldn't be required to have them. It's only a requirement that cars built for the purpose of first sale within the US have them.
Of course, there will likely be amendments to cover the other angles over time.
anyways, the book was about information control. The internet has made Big Brother impossible.
No, the book was about total control of everything. Information control was only part of it.
Why mandate a telescreen in every room when you can get people to BUY the latest, greatest telescreen as a status symbol and carry it around with them everywhere they go? Why bother suppressing the truth when half the proles would rather believe lies that pander to their ignorance, and the other half are too distracted by mindless entertainment to care?
Huxley was much closer to the truth than Orwell.
Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?
Yeah. I cannot believe the lack of knowledge about the new health insurance mandate in some of the above posts. It seems like we went for weeks with nothing else being discussed in the news and among my friends. As the law was written, you will buy insurance or you will be fined. It is a mandate. The supreme court justices noted with some amusement that the government called it a fine and then a tax and then a fine depending on which argument they happened to be trying to win at the time. This indeed is not yet implemented. Also, employers WILL provide health insurance or they will be fined. These fines increase year to year initially I think that the fine per employee is something like 6% of that employees salary and grows from there. I doubt it will stand but I guess looking at the results from 1942 Wickard vs Filburn anything is possible.
Government is necessary. Laws are necessary. These are though necessary evils. You can't argue that someone is more free when there are restrictions placed on what they can do by men with guns. At the same time you can't argue that mankind would be better off (outside of some kind of Eden) with no government at all. So the best solution would logically be as much government intrusion as necessary and no more. I don't think many people would seriously argue with this. It is the question of how much is necessary that is the major point of contention. Start reading here: http://oll.libertyfund.org/index.php?option=com_staticxt&staticfile=show.php&title=343
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan's_Run
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan's_Run_(film)
"To track this, the humans are implanted at birth with a Lifeclock crystal in the palm of their hand that changes colors as they approach their "Last Day". To maintain order, the computer has assigned Sandmen (officially known as DS agents, de facto executioners), who pursue and terminate Runners (those who try to avoid Carrousel)."
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
Republicans have gone so far right and the Democrats have gone so far left
Minor correction: The Republicans have gone so brutally far to the right that the Democrats' gentle drift to the right appears to be leftwards motion; It is only an optical illusion though.
Although if you really believe Democrats are in favor of communism then facts may not be terribly interesting to you.
"All these years believing you're the signified monkey, only to find out you're just a big hunk of nobody cares."
I know this is /. and we're supposed to focus only on the glaring privacy issues because that's how the discussion must be framed, but beyond that context there are actual great uses for this tech.
I would find this level of analysis of my own driving habits useful for improving. Throw in time-synced biofeedback monitoring + cameras on each angle, and, for example, you could identify the closest proximity a vehicle had to your before you became aware of it. You could review your closest calls, and get addition insight into how you might be able to improve your driving skills.
There's also the problem that, if self-driving cars are to be an eventual reality, real-time monitoring of velocity and operating controls will be a necessary step. And yes, I've heard Franklin's quote about sacrificing liberty for safety, but to be fair the man lived in the age of the horse-drawn carriage.
To elevate a liberty concept on measurable driving data --which essentially measures precisely how one is operating a vehicle on public roads, not some form of communication-- above the public safety concern seems to be an awfully bloody business. US vehicle deaths have gradually dropped from a peak of 54,589 in 1972 to 32,885 last year. (Interestingly, that's now around the number of motor vehicle deaths around 1929.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in_U.S._by_year
Did you also walk uphill both ways to school in the snow without shoes? Did they still say 'dickity'? Was tying an onion to your belt still the style at the time?
I don't remember any of that, but you could get five bees for a quarter.
"All these years believing you're the signified monkey, only to find out you're just a big hunk of nobody cares."
As Jefferson stated, that is the natural tendency of the party system: 1 for more government; 1 for less government ...
Father to Daughter/Son
Hmm, there seems to be some abnormality in the data, the blackbox registered that you were driving on a saw-tooth road, yet the vehicle was not moving.
Load New Commander (Y/N)?
Keep that old clunker!
I killed da wabbit -Elmer Fudd
Doesnt retain information for long, expect that to change. They will be able to tell where/when you drove and your stopping/starting habits for years gone past.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Yes, we all remember those proud defenders of civil liberties, Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan.
It's kind of jarring seeing those two names in the same sentence - like someone saying "those proud defenders of freedom, Joseph Stalin and Mohandas Gandhi".
I think a few Republicans, Reagan is one of them, did care about civil liberties and smaller government - but I think too many Republicans have just talked about it (which is more than most of the Democrats do).
I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
Justice Scalia objected to the Independent Counsel law because it allowed the prosecutor to dig into the President's affairs to try to find a crime, any crime, that had been committed. This differed from traditional law enforcement where there was first an allegation of a specific crime and then the investigators looked for evidence of that crime.
The black box is like the former. It is something the police can look at to see if any crimes were committed rather than reacting to a crime that was known to have been committed.
This might not be so bad if we weren't drowning in traffic laws (and every other kind of law). The truth is that it is nearly impossible to drive safely while following all the traffic laws. If the police want to nail you for something, they can follow you around for a while and probably get you. But at least you have a decent chance of knowing they're following, and they have to stop you the moment you commit the offense.
But the black box allows another approach. For whatever reason, the police decide they don't like you. Now they can pull your black box and check your driving history to find something - anything - at any time. And you may not even remember the event (that time you had to accelerate to avoid the deer - well you exceeded the speed limit and since you don't remember it you can't offer any defense).
Politicians and celebrities have to be on guard all the time because there is always some paparazzi or other camera on them. The rest of us don't want to live like that.
I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
"A bill already passed by the Senate and set to be rubber stamped by the House"
The senate is controlled by Democrats.
Remember when the Democrats used to be all about civil liberties and keeping the government from crawling up your ass?
I'm only in my 40s, so no.
I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
I see "going to the right" as limiting the power and scope of government (by getting rid of laws and decreasing spending). "Going to the left" is expanding the power and scope of government (by increasing regulation and spending). When was the last time either party went to the right?
I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
So if Massachusetts wants to mandate the purchase of hospital insurance, they can. I think that's anti-freedom idea but, per the 10th, they have the authority. The central government does not.
Okay, this makes sense. Here's the work-around: Tie the requirement to some hunk of money from the Federal Government. Highway funds, or the like. "Don't have medical insurance? No highway funds!"
Hey, it worked for the drinking age...
Please. did you forget about the War on Drug Users? The ascendency of the religious right? Are you even aware of how many times Reagan raised taxes? Do you understand that his Reaganomics is responsible for the extreme economic inequality we are burdened with today?
Almost everything that is wrong with our government now can be traced back to Ronald Reagan.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
I see "going to the right" as limiting the power and scope of government (by getting rid of laws and decreasing spending). "Going to the left" is expanding the power and scope of government (by increasing regulation and spending). When was the last time either party went to the right?
I suppose you can define anything in any way you choose, but you may have trouble being taken seriously by people with a more complete understanding of reality.
"All these years believing you're the signified monkey, only to find out you're just a big hunk of nobody cares."
There is no such tax credit. Worse, the Obama administration wants to make the insurance benefit that many of us receive from our employers taxable. That means we'll be paying more in taxes, not less. The mandate has a penalty for non-compliance, which the administration's lawyer frequently called a tax when this was argued in front of SCOTUS. Several of the justices questioned why he kept using different terms when arguing different points. This was all an attempt to dance around the fact that it's a fine which makes it a mandate. We're in a holding pattern now until the justices release their verdict.
When people's very presence inside the USA is illegal, I don't think they are worried about car insurance!
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
A weapon won't help you steal something from someone who doesn't have it available to steal. How many people will have fuel left, considering many people are running on empty as is. How many people have communications equipment beyond a radio and cells phones and computer that do no good when the infrastructure is gone.
Though in the worst case, any person could be used as food and fuel (bio-diesel from body fat).
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
I think his idea was to acquire supplies from people who had stockpiled but were against owning firearms.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
Regarding "throw away your lightbulbs" -- I believe George Bush signed that bill.
In addition, the requirements (the current ones) can be met with halogen lightbulbs (they're sufficiently efficient) which are not very different from incandescent bulbs in light quality (they are somewhat bluer). And, given modest assumptions about the price of electricity or how many hours per day you run a light bulb, the new LED lights (the one I tried was about $30 at Home Depot) pay for themselves quickly, and work very well -- they are on instantly, have better light, are durable, contain no mercury. I am sure that the much more expensive new Philips light has even better light quality, though it will not pay for itself as quickly. I've also read a good review of CREE EcoSmart LED bulbs. CREE is a good name (I use CREE and Philips LEDs on bicycles that live outdoors in Massachusetts; summing over all the bikes and all the LEDs, over 20 LED-years of weather exposure, with no failures).
I know this is off-topic, but you were just completely wrong, and on the internet, too.
No of course not, only up.
>>>they offered a tax credit for those that already had insurance, much the same way that there is a tax credit for replacing your older doors/windows with new energy efficient doors/windows.
NOPE.
Once the law takes effect in 2014, you will receive no tax credit or deduction for having insurance. Instead you will be punished. You will be assessed a penalty of ~$1000. (Actual amount varies depending on your income.)
It's too bad they didn't do it your way (with a credit), because then it would be legal. But to force people to buy a product, or else be punished with a penalty, violates the 10th amendment. Only the Member States hold that power (and even then it may violate the state's constitution or enumeration of rights).
My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
In all honesty most of my vehicles do have electronic ignition, but that's as modern as I get so far as vehicles. I believe simplicity is reliability and won't touch fuel injection for anything I depend on to get to work. Everything I've converted to electronic ignition I have the original points ignition for, along with a fresh set of points and condenser. Doesn't take long to change and I can be mobile while other people are walking or riding pedal-cycles. My bike is a kick start too, a CB750. I still run dual points in that though and it always fires up first kick.
There is no opinion, platform, or creed held so dearly by either party that they will not change as soon as it is advantageous to do so.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
The operation of a vehicle in and of itself is not controlled or restricted. The operation of a vehicle *on public property* (i.e. public roads) is a privilege subject to controls.
I predict it will happen within the Republican party...
Yeah, good luck with that. The religious right is not about to let to any time soon.
Really, I know what I'm doing...Ohhhh, look at the shiny buttons!
to commit immediate body cavity searches on all passengers, on remote GSM commands. The GSM access codes will be issued primarily to law enforcement agencies, but may also be outsourced to corporations who can show that they have a legitimate interest to penetrate peoples orifices in search for e.g. heinous violations of intellectual property. The law also provides an opt-out possibilty, providing takers with a handgun and a single bullet within 24 hours after requesting so.
Progressive Insurance - and no doubt others - already offer a plug-in spy box in exchange for lower insurance rates. But mainly the data will be used as justification to deny damn near every claim.
Time to go back using horses I guess.....
Yup, people hate this - at least, they will until the first time idiot on the road not paying attention plows into them and the black box helps them with an insurance claim. If its a good idea for a plane, why isn't a black box recorder for accidents not a good idea for cars (assuming you are the idiot driver)?
If you are worried about tracking, its already too late. You most likely carry the ultimate tracker in your pocket if you are on this site (your smartphone), which is doing a far better job than your car.
Did they still say 'dickity'? Was tying an onion to your belt still the style at the time?
We had to say dickity, 'cause the Kaiser stole our number twenty!
"What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
That is set by your state, not the feds.
This is a stupid argument.
Are you going to claim that if each state decided to have an individual mandate for health insurance, you'd have no problem with it?
Either the individual mandate is bad, or it's not -- who imposes it is a completely moot point.
--Jeremy
Jesus was a liberal
Now if you are gay they only care about keeping another guy from crawling up your ass.
Time to offend someone
But what's stopping me from just removing the power wire to the damn thing? No problem then. "No officer, I had no idea they messed up installing that spy device and now my car has no evidence against me!"
This is a transportation funding bill -- without its passage, the money will run out in in June. So the Democrats added this amendment to the bill, figuring Republicans will not want to shut down construction projects across the country.
Obama says he will veto the legislation if it includes approval of the Keystone XL pipeline. Let's see if this black-box amendment is defeated in the House.
And I think there are a small number of other classes too.
I was commiserating in the pub with a local farmer who had saved himslef a couple of hundred quid a year by not insuring his old rust bucket of a Landie (Land Rover, Mark 1 IIRC) with the intention of just using it to get around on the hills of the farm. Perfectly legal. He had another "tidy" car for going to town, visiting,etc. Then one day he needed to post a letter and took the wrong vehicle down to the post box in the village, where the vehicle was spotted by passing traffic cops, who investigated . . . several hundred quid fine, a criminal conviction, points on his license, much embarrassment. "Won't be mekkin' that mistake agin, yooth!"
Oh, I see you're an American. Well, I'd be surprised if there weren't such let-out clauses for your laws too. Privately-owned islands ; large blocks of private land.
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
Only as long as you've got a stock of caustic material (sodium or potassium hydroxide). Another consumable (and fairly rare) chemical.
Though ... I wonder if you could do the same job with calcium hydroxide? That you can make with reasonably low tech (roast limestone to form quicklime ; add water to the quicklime to form slaked lime : calcium hydroxide).
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
What I'd like to know is compared to CFL bulbs though. Around 2000 I switched primarily to CFLs due to the availability of ones for ~$2ea plus the energy savings and long life - I get between 5-7 years in most applications - far longer than even the "long life" incandescents...
The issue I have is I have a bunch of spare CFLs, and I'm currently using a bunch that I expect to last for at least 3 more years. I'm not sure it makes any sense to scrap all of these, at FAR higher initial purchase price to switch to LEDs. I suppose I have plenty of time to wait for the LEDs to get down to $2ea like the CFLs are.
The other issue is the only benefit I see is that the LEDs might be a little brighter (75w equiv vs 60w equiv, but really, what's the Lumens?) but aren't saving any wattage draw, or if they are, it's around 3w per bulb rather than 50w per bulb from Incandescents to CFL. Just not that enticing - and I maintain that even if I was full Incandescents right now, I still would go CFL vs LED just because of the up front cost savings.
Opera, Proxomitron-Grypen,GPG 0x0A1C6EE3
If you're okay with the look/fit/not-always-dimmable-ness of CFLs, definitely use up the ones you've got. My wife has better color sense than I do, and some of them bug her (and there's reasons why this would be so, the light really is different). We also have a bunch of ceiling cans, and the ceiling gets plenty cold in the winter, and thus they are slow to come on bright then.
And hopefully, by the time you use up your CFLs, LEDs will be cheaper, and a hair more efficient. What I would do, if you do have some of those "pisses me off" CFL problems, is selectively replace those particular CFLs with LEDs, and then carry on. That's what I've done -- where the light matters to my wife, it tends to be LED bulbs.
One place where LEDs totally kick ass is underneath cabinets, to light counters.
http://dr2chase.wordpress.com/2008/10/19/more-undercabinet-lights/
http://dr2chase.wordpress.com/2011/02/20/undercabinet-lights-basement-kitchen/
Seriously...how is THAT interstate commerce?!?!
The congressmen who voted for it were bought by out-of-state lobbyists?
I'd rather drive an older car then have some black box in my car or you can just remove the thing it's very easy to make an ECM better then the factory one now aka megasquirt avr.