Slashdot Mirror
SCOTUS Refuses To Hear Tenenbaum Appeal
quantr writes "The Supreme Court has declined to hear Joel Tenenbaum's appeal. A jury in 2009 ordered Tenenbaum, of Providence, R.I., to pay $675,000 for illegally downloading and sharing 30 songs. A federal judge called the penalty constitutionally excessive, but the 1st U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals reinstated it at the request of the Recording Industry Association of America. Tenenbaum's attorney, Harvard law professor Charles Nesson, said he's disappointed the high court won't hear the case. But he said the 1st Circuit instructed a judge to consider reducing the award without deciding any constitutional challenge. Nesson said 'Tenenbaum is just entering the job market and can't pay the penalty.'"
I'm sure the RIAA will give some of that money back to the lobbyists whom influenced the decision to not have the case heard. Justice for those that can afford it makes this country great
At what point does corporate America get the clue that people will actually start leaving over this kind of penurious legal system? Lots of other G7 countries out there...
They have failed us more so than the other branches of government. They should protect us from unreasonable laws, judgements and crimes. But they are now a rubber stamp for abuse. Sure, they throw us a bone every now an then (cops can't throw a GPS on your car anytime the feel like it), but for the most part, they confirm the abuse of the constitution and the ongoing pillaging of this country by the special interests with deep pockets.
That the court doesn't even see that there's a constitutional issue here underscores just how out of touch this court is. Probably better not to get a decision, as it would almost certainly be in favor of the RIAA and extremely punative rewards.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
Owing ~$700,000 is like a life sentence of servitude towards RIAA and its CEO/managers.
It will take the rest of this man's life to earn the money & pay it off. And slaves have a right to terminate their masters in order to regain their natural right to freedom. IMHO. "From time to time the Tree of Liberty must be watered with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is freedom's natural fertilizer." - Thomas Jefferson
My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
To charge someone 6 months salary for downloading a song they werent supposed to?
The lawyers got their "cause" and Mr. Tenenbaum got screwed.
You have been chosen, Joel. Unfortunate for you, but true nevertheless. Sometimes, this big weird organism that we call the human race gets sick and needs to heal itself. You're the healer. You're also a sacrifice. It's sad, but it happens again and again through human history. This horror has happened to you because it was necessary to prepare you for what you have to do.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Running_amok
'Tenenbaum is just entering the job market and can't pay the penalty.'
That's what garnishments-for-life are for. Talk to some divorced fathers.
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
Tenenbaum would certainly learn his lesson (not wish to go to jail again), and he'd still be able to rebuild his life once he got out.
Its time to start impeaching judges. They are no longer working for the good of the american people.
Looking for facts on the original infractions, I googled and found this. An excerpt:
Suing Tenenbaum were Sony Corp. (6758) and its Arista Records, Warner Music Group’s Warner Bros. and Atlantic labels and Vivendi SA’s (VIV) Universal Music Group. They said he made songs available on various sites including Napster, Morpheus, Kazaa and LimeWire, distributing songs to millions of other people. He continued after being sent a letter from the record companies, and blamed sisters, houseguests and even burglars, the companies said.
“Tenenbaum undertook these actions even though he was fully aware that they were illegal,” the record companies said. “In fact, his own father warned him that individuals were being sued for such conduct but he did not stop.”
There is no such thing as judgment proof in the US - courts can order him to pay a small % of his wages every single paycheck until the day he dies or pays the judgment. The way it works in the US is that the order to withhold a portion of his check is served on his employer and if the employer fails to withhold the designated amount of money per pay check, the company must pay. How much is withheld depends on his living expenses and how much he makes.
Maybe he won't be able to pay the total sum the lower court decides to impose, but if the restitution is a significant amount, he will be paying via wage garnishment in drips for the rest of his life and his estate will even pay to satisfy the judgment after he is dead.
Fines for this kind of offense should be capped at the same fine one would experience for shoplifting equivalent CD's. This ruling was completely ridiculous, and RIAA represented musicians know it. They should be ashamed to be affiliated with this kind of greedy corporatism.
...and move to Taiwan/Singapore/Shanghai/EU or ueber Germany for a better life abroad.
On the bright side, this method creates destitute and angry people who have their hostile intentions directed toward the recording industry. Hopefully there won't need to be so many of them created before the natural outcome ensues. Hopefully I won't be the next one.
Support the EFF and Creative Commons. The war is coming, and they're supporting you...
That fine is way out of line from what a person could ever pay back. I can't even save enough for my 3 kids to go to college let alone 675,000. I can understand they would want some amount of penalty but that is way out of line. Hmmm.... I wonder how much the judges get every year salary. Maybe that is the disconnect. They think the person can just save for 5 years and pay it back. We need a part of the government that is working for the people to look for punishments that are way out of line for the crime. Why don't we have a part of government that does this? They would have to not be allowed to accept third party donations of any kind. Congress is supposed to be doing this job but based on verdicts like this it is obvious they are failing us.
*(Barclay Brothers, Murdochs, Rothermeres.)
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
Why doesn't she just cash out one of her trust funds to pay for this?
Tenenbaum is just entering the job market and can't pay the penalty
Surely he has organs he could sell.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
The Supreme Court's job is not to protect you from the democratic system.
I now understand why the Court refused cert on Citizens United.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
Can this ridiculous debt be wiped out in bankruptcy, or is it exempted from bankruptcy proceedings? Even having to deal with a bankruptcy on your credit report for 7 years is pretty harsh for the violation he's found guilty of, but having your wages garnished for life is beyond the pale. Of course, that's what they were hoping for. They needed a poster-boy so nobody would ever reject a settlement offer and go to trial again. Spreading fear was their mission.
Tenenbaum can at least get a court to declare bankruptcy and move on with his life.
Is this judgment dischargable in bankruptcy? IIRC the law on that kind of thing changed rather dramatically a few years ago.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
The Supreme Court ruling on this always struck me as somewhat ludicrous. If Congress does not have the right to set ballpark figures for fines to deter people from violating a law it has a constitutional mandate to pass, then what rights does it have?
This sounds "cruel and unusual" to me. I wonder if there is any authority that could issue an opinion regarding my concern. The Supreme Court perhaps?
Set your phasers on "funky"!
At least in Arizona, a divorced woman over 50 can get "spousal maintenance" for the rest of her life, not revisable due to circumstances (e.g. unemployment of the ex-husband, including retirement or disability.) Which might explain some of the 70-something greeters at Wal-Mart.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
Supreme Court didn't rule that it was acceptable or not acceptable. They just didn't decide not to see the case at this point. When Health Care Reform was first passed their were many appeals sent to the Supreme Court. They ignored them unitll there were conflicting opinions from different courts. There is only one supreme court. They can't hear every case. They rely on the appeals court to filter stuff out.
The jury awarded the ridiculous damages.
Based on the Court's instructions regarding the law.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
Don't do it !!
Or if you must, and get caught !!, or file for personal bankruptcy, claim you are too big to fail and allow your uncle to cover your ass, or just flip them the bird and say catch me if you can !!
I'm going to Disneyland !! Breaker 1-9. Got yur ears on Good Buddy !! Going 10-10. Catch you on the flipflop !!
Let's ask for damages SO HIGH that he won't EVER be able to legitimately purchase from us for AS LONG AS HE LIVES!
Shit, Mom was right! I'm the smartest muthafocka in all of Los Angeles!
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
Seeing as how the value was placed on the content that was distributed, all he has to do is make a material trade of something of similar value. Create 30 original recordings that have not been distributed to anyone at all and hand them over as fair trade value. As these are original and have not been distributed at all they would actually have higher value thant he songs he was found to have distributed as those songs were already available to many people.
Where do I go to post a bug report about my country's justice system?
http://verydemotivational.memebase.com/2012/01/24/demotivational-posters-killing-michael/
Allowing the supreme court to pick and choose what they want to rule on was a HUGE mistake. They can let things stand without taking a stand..
Even if they were being paid off to rule one way or another, at least there would be a record and be easier to see a pattern to be investigated. This way there is nothing.. But cowards.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
You've only just entrenched me even farther
I was able to save $180,000 in just 4 years.
Can we trade paychecks for 4 years? I'm sure I'd have no issue finding an EXTRA $3,750/month to save up.
Why can't you afford college? It's about $60,000 per kid at a state school, or $180,000 for all three.
$180 000 is what, 90 months worth of salary after taxes? Lets assume 84 months; that's 7 years worth of salary. Good luck.
Why can't you afford college? It's about $60,000 per kid at a state school, or $180,000 for all three. I was able to save $180,000 in just 4 years. No reason you can't do the same over 20.
In terms of cars $180,000 == 9 cars. So stop buying cars every 3-4 years and stash that money away in the bank. Then cancel your cable TV (it's trash) and your unlimited cellphone calling (luxury not necessity). That's $2000 saved per year, or $40,000 from baby kid to college-aged kid.
Cut corners other places like buying the smaller home for $150,000 instead of $250,000. Buy a $350 refrigerator instead of the $1500 stainless steel beauty, and same with washers and dryers and other appliances. And on and on.
As someone earning $60k a year before taxes (which I understand to be an above median amount), I've never owned a new car, I don't have cable TV, I'm still using the first cell phone I ever purchased, and my home was $120k. You are suggesting saving (assuming a biweekly paycheck) $1730 a paycheck, I think after taxes and everything I'm clearing just a few more dollars than that. I just had my first kid and the amount I can save has gone down to $50 a paycheck now. I cannot imagine how much extra 2 more kids would cost me. I think you may have a bit of a disconnect on the average persons earning power.
...you expect us to feel bad for Sony, the company that knowingly sent malware to its customers? You expect us to feel bad for any of the recording industry companies, who do everything they can to deny payment to the artists whose music they distribute?
Maybe you have not noticed, but he was a college student who downloaded some music. You expect us not to have sympathy for him? He is starting out in life with as much debt as someone who bought three houses, and that is for sharing just a few hours of music. He is an indentured servant, he will be forced to work for decades to pay the RIAA, even though the RIAA has since come to admit that these tactics do absolutely nothing to help their business or to stop people from downloading music.
Then again, you are posting anonymously and in support of the attack on Tenanbaum's life. The RIAA is not above hiring shills...
Palm trees and 8
I wouldn't say that Tenenbaum violated the law, as much as spurious legislation, the "law," is being used violate Joel Tenenbaum. Seeing as these songs are available on Utube, presumably as advertising, I also have a hard time with punitive damages over triple damages which were traditionally considered as highly punitive in intellectual property disputes. So, somewhere between $0.003 and $3 per song should be considered as highly punitive. Beyond that is fascism, extortion and financial terrorism.
By now, everyone should know what to do with terrorists.
Legal judgements cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. Ever.
You left out the obvious, make crazy amounts of money. If you even managed to save 25% gross salary in a year you are making $180,000 a year. Really your advice is quite meaningless to the average American.
-- Slashdot, making the Left look conservative since 1997.
1. The "essential predicate" is "that a punishment must not by its severity be degrading to human dignity," especially torture.
2. "A severe punishment that is obviously inflicted in wholly arbitrary fashion."
3. "A severe punishment that is clearly and totally rejected throughout society."
4. "A severe punishment that is patently unnecessary."
Principle 3, at the very least, seems to apply to this case.
Set your phasers on "funky"!
Reading TFA, it states "The 1st Circuit said a new judge assigned to the case could reduce the award again, but the record labels would then be entitled to a new trial."
A new trial, even if only for damages, is the last thing the record labels should want. Each new trial increases the odds that some jury will award a token amount in effect removing effective civil sanction. Given that Jammie Thomas-Rasset had her penalty reduced to $54,000, it is likely even a new judge will reduce the penalty to well below $80,000. That's not an amount that will destroy someone like Joel Tenenbaum's life, especially since he's now a public figure and comes from what appears to be a relatively well-off family. At worst the penalty will be reduced to $70,000 and the RIAA will simply have to take that amount versus going to a new trial.
Considering that Joel Tenenbaum has now achieved some notoriety with this case, it is simply a matter of monetizing one's 15 minutes of fame. I don't think he will come close to monetizing it to $1 million, but I also suspect he won't have much of a problem monetizing his fame to basically feel no pain at all from the penalty. Note that in this worst-case scenario Tenenbaum pays the fine but has no other obligation, versus a settlement where the RIAA could demand he goes away forever and never speak in public of his experiences again. Writing a book, giving talks against the RIAA, all of these would remain open to him.
One may object that maybe Tenenbaum is not in this to monetize fame, but from my experience, the last thing serious research scientists at the beginning of their careers want is unrelated distractions. There are papers to publish, conferences to attend, jobs to apply for, etc. He must be getting something from this trial even at risk of this penalty to make the time spent well worth his while.
You make enough money to save 45k a year? Can I have that job?
APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
Yup so not only can organisations buy a politicians they can also buy supreme court justices. Isn't the US great. So the RIAA/MPAA has the capital, Doj & ICE, FBI and not the Supreme Court of the United States. What are they missing??
Both on the letter of the law and the root cause of the fact that to date, the only "displaced homemaker" recipients have been women.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
We need a part of the government that is working for the people to look for punishments that are way out of line for the crime. Why don't we have a part of government that does this?
Someone far wiser than I am once said, "government of the people, by the people, for the people" should not fade from the earth.
I only wish I could remember who it was.
You want fair laws, with just punishments for infraction? Vote for them. It's your civic duty.
Alternatively, you can let WalMart and Sony run your country. I suggest you read 1984 and SnowCrash. Then go make some placards.
Democracy... wonderful thing.
Yep, his only two options are to either spend most of the rest of his life servicing his debt in indentured servitude to the RIAA, or flee the country illegally. Unfortunately for him, leaving with a passport isn't going to be likely- the current administration recently made it possible to revoke or deny passports to debtors, so he would have to find a country that would take his young and unskilled self as a political refugee, or some he would have to fall into a similar class where a passport isn't a requirement. Even joining the French Foreign Legion isn't an option for him now, as he has to legally enter the country in order to join.
It's useful to remember that this is not the Supreme Court of 20-30 years ago. This is the Supreme Court of Citizens United. This is the Roberts Supreme Court. The number of decisions the present court has made that are injurious (as it were) to most of the American population is now adding up and I suspect that Roberts, Scalia, Thomas, et. al. are going to earn a very different place in history books than their predecessors.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberts_Court
Shut the fuck up. Please.
...organised ourselves the world over such that for just 24 hours, not one person on this planet bought or downloaded a single piece of music.
The fact that we could organise a single mass protest of that magnitude would send send earthquakes through the RIAA and the rest of the music industry and the whole issue of copyright would change overnight.
But unfortunately far too many of us are selfish, greedy "have-it-nows" with too much money in our hands. (Yes, I include myself in that.)
Windows 10 is great - I used it to download Linux.
nothing to see here.
Agree or disagree with the rules, the corporate bribing of our "officials", etc., shouldn't this be filed under the "Blood From a Turnip Department"?!?
If it were me, I'd change my name, move to another country, and send the prosecutors, their owners (the RIpoffAA), etc., a bunch of bags of flaming dog turds from my new (non extradition/treaty having) homeland.
What they've said, in effect, is this man has to pay over two thirds of a million dollars to stay in this country, or one that it's friends with. That's too expensive. Fuck that, time to learn to speak another language, and haul ass.
If you don't want it you don't give your money to the machine, and you run no risk since you don't "market chum" by downloading and seeding their shit.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
Moral of the Story: Never hire a Harvard law professor as a defense attorney. They are more interested in making precedent and a name for themselves than protecting the interests of their client.
Fast Federal Court and I.T.C. updates
I know, I'm midway between Funny and Troll but play with this one.
(Daydreaming)
"Dear Jury. When you render this verdict, you place yourselves and your own computers on automatic trial as a re-suit for copyright infringement. So decide what penalty YOU would pay should you happen to have ANY copyrighted work on your computers."
What a fun legal principle. All this BS "It's Not Me" crap would go away. Because the jurors have 52 of their own songs each on their computers.
(/Daydreaming)
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
We've finally found step 2 for the underwear gnomes:
1) Steal underwear
2) Make crazy amounts of money via an undisclosed job.
3) Profit!
Every one of the points I made was true, so you assembled geniuses modded me
down to -1 ?
This party is over, the only people left here are idiots.
you should rename SCOTUS to SCROTE-US
Then cancel your cable TV (it's trash)
cancel your cable and then just download anything you want to watch from piratebay, it's great - and free!! :)))
Oh, One hopes they try to use him as a poster boy. They've been able to get away with the shenanigans so far because they've kept them under the radar. If people thought that the ridiculous fines in the unskippable FBI warnings were realistic, they'd be a lot more fearful of the inexplicably severe powers of such a tiny (but vocal) industry.
Also, if they literally use him as a poster boy, then he has standing to sue over the unauthorized use of his likeness...
Can you be Even More Awesome?!
that our Supreme Court is owned. Clarance Thomas' corruption is so obvious that he's essentially just flaunting the law at this stage, and if the other half was stronger he'd be getting disbarred right about now. The rest basically just side with the property owners on principle.
I feel bad for this guy, to to be honest I'm too beat from my day job to do anything about it. Mission Accomplished.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
I wonder if an insurance company could insure against this?
What else were they to do?
They not only hear cases of interest, those cases generally have to have some sort of actual merit. His didnt. While his case might have, his specific claims were outright dumb
Why can't you afford college? It's about $60,000 per kid at a state school, or $180,000 for all three.
Whoa... Its been a few years, but I paid about $4500 a year plus books for my state school. I don't think it is much more than double that now. I paid my own way through college. It wasn't the best school, but it sure beat being in debt when I got my degree.
He won't be an indentured servant, he can file chapter 7. In order for the fine to not be chargeable in bankruptcy proceedings, it would have to be determined that the fine was levied for willful and malicious harm to the victim. The RIAA would have to prove intent to cause harm, and that harm did occur, during bankruptcy proceedings in order to block the discharge. They won't be able to prove that.
It's the first thing I'd say to my fellow jurors once we'd entered deliberations.
[/ExcludedFromJuryService]
Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
Since they haven't shown ANY damage.
Therefore why should he be paying more than someone who would get the copyrights?
Really.
You're failing your argument badly here.
This is the point where you have two choices. Fake your own death and disappear, or don't fake it, just die for real.
Tynin,
I make the same amount, but I have 3 kids. Yeah, housing, feeding and transporting them leaves nothing for the long run. I keep my 401k going, but every other cent is already accounted for. I hope you have good luck! :)
A lot of the commenters here have forgotten their history with this case. This is one case where, in fact, the punishment fits quite nicely.
This is a punishment for illegally sharing music pretty much in name only. The actual trial could be described as a textbook case of "how to alienate a jury."
So, first, Tenenbaum hired a lawyer who acted very eccentric: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2009/07/tenenbaum-trial-opens-following-last-minute-dismissal-of-fair-use-defense/
Then, Tenenbaum - after eight months of legal proceedings - admitted that he had been lying under oath the entire time. When counsel asked him why he had basically played the entire court system (and, for that matter, his own lawyer) for chumps for the last eight months, he replied with the equivalent of a shrug and "it seemed like the best response to give": http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2009/07/tenenbaum-takes-the-stand-i-used-p2p-and-lied-about-it/
At this point, he had acted enough like a sociopath that the $675,000 judgement against him was self-inflicted. Then, having done all this, his legal team put out an appeal to the Internet to pay his fine for him. I'm not kidding - the appeal was removed after the backlash included Ray Beckerman himself: http://recordingindustryvspeople.blogspot.com/2009/08/please-do-not-contribute-any-funds-to.html
And now, he's trying to weasel out of the consequences of his actions. I'm sorry, but I think the punishment fits here. This isn't some poor fool who got caught sharing a few songs and got extorted by the RIAA for it. This is somebody who perjured himself for eight months, alienated what would have otherwise probably have been a sympathetic jury, and tried to get everybody else to pay his fine when the jury - understandably upset when it learned it had been lied to and the entire system played for chumps - handed down its sentence.
The Supreme Court was right to not spare this man any of its time.
Robert B. Marks
Author, Demonsbane in Diablo Archive
Well you could try lobbying them and read their responses.
I already have. It's a form letter that shows how bought the candidate already is by the MAFIAA.
The GP's point was that if you elect politicians with integrity who are willing to open their books to auditers with teeth, then the only weapon a lobbyist has is reason.
No movie studio will allow its affiliated television news outlet to give enough exposure to "politicians with integrity who are willing to open their books to auditers with teeth".
"Spreading fear was their mission."
Isn't that terrorism? Why haven't the RIAA and supporters been charged with committing economic terrorism on US citizens? We have plenty of anti-terrorism law in place lets use them against corporations like various groups including government use laws in unintended ways against the public.
According to this, yearly in-state public school on-campus total fees average 21k
Everyone that has a mortgage, car loan, credit card, student loan, etc is considered a debtor. So it can't be all debtors. I couldn't find specifically what you mentioned, but I found references to Moving Ahead for Progress in the 21st Century Act that would allow the State Department to limit or prohibit passports to those delinquent tax debtors. But Tenenbaum wouldn't be considered a tax debtor, rather a civil judgement.
I thought civil judgements could be discharged as long as they were not willful and malicious (among other exemptions for not being able to be discharged). Willful probably could be successfully argued, but I don't think the malice could be. Had he posted the songs on a website and said "Screw the RIAA, download these songs for free" then there would be malice.