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Ask Slashdot: What's Your Beef With Windows Phone?
First time accepted submitter occasional_dabbler writes "Reviews by 'commentators' such as this one predict certain doom for both Nokia and Microsoft on the basis of the OS being a failure, yet whenever the Lumia handsets are reviewed in the mainstream press they are often highly praised. Windows phone is an immature OS, certainly, but it does pretty much everything you need in a smartphone, is getting better with each update and it is beautiful. I have a Lumia 800, and now I'm used to how it and the WP OS works I find it a painful process to go back to an Android or iPhone for some obscure app not yet supported on WP. WP gave me the same feeling I got when I bought my first iBook, fired up OS X 10.1 and realized I had just been shifted up a decade. So why so serious? What do Slashdotters who have really tried WP think of it?"
All those f*ckin' tiles drive me nuts! It's like a kindergardener's art project!
So there is irrational rabid hate for it.
When Nokia effectively became a Microsoft subsidiary, they killed off all their linux-based cell phones. If that's not enough to enrage an average slashdotter, I don't know what is.
It's about as bad as when automotive bought up streetcar lines to destroy them and replace them with buses.
We can't keep waiting for 'the next version' of windows phone to fix the problems with the OS. It needs the multitasking fixed on major apps, it needs the scrolling bugs fixed. It needs a lot of minor things fixed that have been problems for years now.
People like a phone OS for what it can do, not what the next update promises to bring. Then there is the issue of Apollo even being able to run on current hardware.
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What's my beef? My beef?
I'm a vegetarian you insensitive clod! I only eat apples and blackberrys.
I just know that between Android and iPhone, I've got enough alternatives for my next phone choice to be easy (I'd likely be satisfied with either, and would just try to see which is better between the two). Microsoft hasn't made anything in the last 12 years that I'd want to buy instead of their competition, so I suppose just their reputation is enough to keep me away unless I hear they've come up with something truly revolutionary.
I've learned that they're worthless, so I don't read AC comments anymore.
How about the fact that getting a Windows phone to work with an exchange server is slightly more painful than shooting yourself in the dick?
A small business that is using a self signed certificate might as well cross all windows phones off of their purchasing options forever. And don't tell me, "Oh they should just get a real certificate." because YOU don't get to make that call and neither do I. The client does and they say no.
iPhone? No Problem. Android? No Problem. Windows Phone? Export certificate from site, email it to yahoo or gmail account FROM a yahoo or gmail account because outlook/exchange refuses to allow you to mail a cert, then import it, reboot the phone, and HOPE that it works. I just got finished dealing with one that didn't work. We renewed the cert, and now the thing is just shitboxed. Can't get it to accept the new cert at all.
How the fuck hard is it to add a "Accept this certificate anyways?" option...
Check out JoshJitsu.info for Brazilian Ji
So were the junky 4-color IBM PCs that went "beep" instead of producing real music. And the godawful Windows 3.1 of the 90s. Mainstream press opinions mean little to me (especially since they are often bribed to give glowing reviews).
My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
I don't care what the OS is but I do care what apps are available. Microsoft is in the unusual position of having a hard time attracting developers to their platform.
As an occasional mobile developer, I have limited resources and develop for where the people are. If I want an audience willing to pay, I would target iOS (never have so far). If I want a broad audience, Android. There really isn't anything compelling about Windows Phone to me.
Microsoft has billions in the bank and I think they could turn this around if they worked out a deal with the carriers to give customers a $10 credit each month for the app store. They could easily afford it because there just aren't that many Windows Phones out there. If those few owners became big spenders though, that could trigger more development on the platform which in turn might attract more users.
Not my list, but here's 121 reasons why you don't want Windows Phone 7.5
There are no atheists when recovering from tape backup.
There are several aspects of WP7 that I want to like, and on the surface should provide a better experience than other phone, but none of these things live up to their promise. The hubs are a good example.
From a user interaction point of view, I think the hubs are a really cool idea, and a better way to organize data. But the concept falls flat because there is no way for third parties to create hub "plugins" for other data sources, so you are limited into the ones that come with the system. Because, of this you end up accessing some people/music/pictures/etc through the hubs, and some through individual apps, which really isn't any more convenient than just doing it all through individual apps.
just because of past experience with both on other platforms.
I want a device that I own and can control what goes on it, what it does, and when it updates. Apple all but openly admits it is a walled-garden, so that's out. Microsoft doesn't control the software available on it's OS' as much, but it still flexes it's muscles too much w.r.t. the standards it uses.
Android isn't perfect, it isn't the best. But if I get a phone that runs android I know I have some measure of control of my device as a consumer. I have no such promises from Apple or Microsoft.
I swear they give me mod points to shut me up.
Despite it's outdated UI, I was a fan of Windows Mobile 6.x because of its openness and the resulting flexibility. In locking down WP7 so much, Windows Phone is essentially a "Microsoft iPhone". If I wanted an iPhone, I would just buy an iPhone.
Redesigning the UI to be touch friendly, while keeping the openness of Windows mobile 6.x would have kept me interested.
Android sucks in its own special ways, but at least I have the flexibility to mold it into the tool that I want.
I don't always use unix-like operating systems; but when I do, I prefer FreeBSD.
favorite company. interesting way to put it.
do I like microsoft? not that much.
do I like apple. not very much at all!
do I like google? to be honest, not that much at all, and less and less as time marches on.
do I like any of the carriers? certainly not!
I'm just not that enthused about the whole phone thing, to be honest. its not fun, it can be a HUGE time waster (just configuring it to remove the crap that most ship with, getting bugs worked out, 'managing' it, etc.) and its not even something I can really own, anyway (not the radio code, not a lot of things in phones). its STILL not like a pc in that I can own or understand or control every part.
so, color me *bored* about the whole phone thing. its a huge cost (monthly in money and in time) and I'm just not all that into this gadget direction. I know a lot of people are, but for this gadget freak (and believe me, I have a ton of gear of various kinds) phones just don't do anything for me. there's so much to NOT like about the whole thing.
all I ask is that it be able to dial out, accept incoming calls, keep the call error-free during the call time and have reasonable battery life. beyond that, I really don't need a portable computer 'on me' at every waking moment. I just don't.
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
It's VI verses EMACS with Microsoft in the middle trying to push NOTEPAD!
Microsoft isn't going to do well in the phone market, they don't have the pretty of Apple, the utility of Android, or the stability of either.
Not compatible with iTunes App Store content.
Beetween You/Apple/Microsoft, I would hardly blame Microsoft for you being locked in to some ITunes crap.
I agree - it looks and works great. To me, it feels like a phone OS designed with the small form-factor in mind, rather than a porting of a "desktop icon" metaphor to a smaller screen. The home screen is designed to expose a number of things you want to do/see without requiring to navigate anywhere or launch an app. Simple things like the way the buttons feel and animate make the experience better. I find it both more enjoyable to use than Android and iPhone, and also snappier (using a Samsung phone, haven't used the Nokia). The main thing it lacks at the moment is the breadth of apps, but it's getting there. My normal phone is Android, but when I'm due for an update I'm likely to switch to WP.
i've had an iphone since 2009
i have thousands of apps for it, even though i don't use them all
there are some really crazy apps for iOS that do things no one imagined a few years ago
iOS is well past cool upgrades and is now on the improving usability every year cycle
Windows Phone is way behind
a lot less app support
its not cheaper
Why switch? what is it going to do better than iOS?
The WP7 OS is decent enough to use. But that's not the total phone experience.
To total phone experience varies a lot from person to person. But people want choice and the WP7 app store is still relatively barren compared to the mountains of refuse in google play or itunes. It's true you don't need the vast majority of the stuff in the competing stores (or even most of what's on the WP7 store) but why pick and OS without whatever app you like or that will likely miss out on it.
WP7 is a dead man walking. You know it. Nokia knows it. Everyone knows. WP8 is the real prize. But if I need a phone today I'm not waiting around. Especially since we have no idea if WP8 will actually be any good to use. And once I get into the non MS ecosystem I'd need to invest money to switch, and need to wait for a contract to expire.
There's no premium WP hardware. There's mid range, and low to mid range. And calling the 900 mid range in an era of quad core phones is being generous. All else being equal if the best phone on the market is a Galaxy SIII why would I buy a single core competitor? Especially if I have 700 or 800 dollars to spend on a phone.
People still think it's 1995 and that windows is a bug riddles mess. Because if don't know how to take care of your computer it will be a trainwreck and you don't learn you live with outdated biases.
If you want simple easy to understand you get an iphone. You pay a premium for a degree of uniformity. If you want a low end smartphone or a high end smartphone you buy android. If you know how to hack your phone and don't mind flashing roms and so on, you get an android. Where does that leave MS in the marketplace? If you have to wait for a *carrier* to approve an update to your phone then you aren't a happy customer. If you don't understand technology an iPhone doesn't have that problem, if you understand how to install a nightly ROM build android phones are at least better than waiting on the carriers. With a windows phone you're stuck waiting on the carrier, which is simply unacceptable, unless you pay the 99 dollar developer licence.
Microsoft is late to this party. Very late. Unless they can pull a magic Xbox integration plan or something awesome that ties into the desktop (your phone can remote desktop right microsoft? Right? ugh...) they have a hard time asking users to switch. My calendaring is all through google now, so I'd have to move that over. I have invested however much money in google's app store for apps I can't easily port over. There aren't any 'killer apps' for WP7 exclusively.
There's a viable strategy there. Microsoft just isn't executing, and they can't rely on momentum to keep them going. That however, could change, and especially in the business environment integration with their corporate products could really help. b
I have been using Windows Phone for a good 6 months now, and I really do feel backward when using people's iPhones. That being said iPhone has the ecosystem that I am envious of, if a friend is playing a game, very often WP doesn't have it (yet.) So that's very frustrating. I think a lot of people just go with the platforms their friends have, the tile system is a bit jarring for those not familiar with it, and it could be improved a lot (sometimes Metro is just -too- simplistic.) However, once you are used to the system, it's a lot more intuitive than iOS. People complain about the tiles, but when using friends phones they have a sea of icons that honestly just hurt my eyes to scroll through. A lot of people think the WP list system is the wrong approach, but tapping on a letter jumps you to the program you want.
WP's biggest flaw is that it is so late to the game, if you walk into an AT&T store, expect to have an iPhone pushed on you, if you walk into a Verizon store, expect an Android device to be pushed on you. Microsoft made the mistake of not getting in bed with one of the major carriers. Google & Verizon/Apple & AT&T have a lot of power over the purchases of potential WP users. I've walked into Verizon stores with the -only- WP device being treated like the step child, and AT&T stores have had WP booths with the phones all powered down. It's pathetic. Old habits die hard. I do think all 3 of the OSes are very good in their own right, but why WP is lagging sort of baffles me, I'd expect it to at least have some interest among youth looking for Xbox Live integration. The Lumia phones are gorgeous, but honestly on the wrong carrier....Verizon should have been the Lumia's focus. AT&T's is pretty saturated with iPhone. Microsoft shot themselves in the foot with their half-assed Kin device on Verizon.
So, my basic answer is carriers, carriers, carriers, even more so than developers.
But "Windows Mobile" has NOTHING to do with the new WP7 phones... nothing in common at all from a user perspective. So that's a ridiculous and irrational reason to avoid WP7 phones, definitely.
They're worth a try. They're pretty cool, actually.
- Spryguy
There are three kinds of people in this world: those that can count and those that can't
I carried a Windows Phone in place of my usual Android device for about 45 days at the start of the year to understand what the experience was like. My take away is that while it is a serviceable OS, it still has many of the shortcoming that the other smartphone platforms have grown out of. Also, it occasionally errs on the side of "pretty graphic design" over usability. I wrote up a full article on my experience here: https://plus.google.com/100566622327534003774/posts/RyT3Ajwd1GX
I'm a Canadian so I'm not sure how true this is, but I think Europeans tend to look at disdain at Microsoft as a corporation. The were convicted as abusing their monopoly in the EU and in the US, but election of GWB gave them a free pass in the US penalty phase.
Having Nokia effectively surrender their crown jewels to Microsoft by a former Microsoft exec doesn't exactly do any favours to image of Nokia as a strong and vibrant company. Perception is more than half the battle to marketing, and marketing is a huge component to smart phones (very few people actually NEED one).
That's just from outside the fishbowl looking in. Also telegraphing your moves before you have a plan in place is such a dumb idea. To paraphrase Steve Jobs, Nokia should have milked all their 'legacy' technologies dry while working on the 'next great thing (whether it was with Microsoft or not).' Instead they drove a heart through their products publicly and called it a day.
I bought a Lumia 900 in April and I absolutely love it. I'm probably very different from most Slashdotters though, in that I don't rabidly hate anything that comes from Microsoft. I use Windows, I have a live.com mail account, I owned a Zune, I own an Xbox, and I don't have a problem with any of these products and services. I'm also a little different from Slashdotters in that I'm forced to use Linux for my day job, rather than being forced to use Windows, so perhaps that feeds my perception.
But back to windows phone, I suspect the reason I feel so differently about it compared to most Slashdotters is my needs are very different. I don't want to root it, I don't want to hack it, I don't want to tinker with it and mod it; I have plenty of other toys and gadgets I root/hack/mod (including other android devices). I just want a phone that works as advertised and doesn't get in my way. It makes calls (brilliant call quality on the Nokia hardware by the way), takes pictures, connects to all my social networks, connects to all the services I use, and allows me to download apps.
My choice was really down to two: iPhone or Windows Phone. I ultimately chose windows phone because of Office integration, Xbox integration, large screen, and the UI. iOS is nice and all, but it's starting to feel dated and I like the hubs concept in Windows Phone a lot more. With the latest release of iOS they're adding a lot more integration with services, which is something Windows Phone has had for a while now. Further the gorgeous gorgeous gorgeous Lumia hardware made the choice easy. This phone is really stunning, especially with the OLED display. I don't care that it's low resolution, it looks that amazing.
I ultimately didn't choose an android phone because of my experience with them in the past. While I never owned owe for my personal phone, I've used models like the Atrix and various tablets for my work. I found the UI gernally inconsistent and laggy, the apps weren't of the best quality comapred to iOS (I should mention I also own an iPod touch and iPad, and my girlfriend own an iPhone which I've used extensively), and the integration with services I use was lacking. In all, there just wasn't anything that "special" about Android if I didn't want to use it as a development device. The hardware variety is nice, but I also get that in Windows Phone. Actually, I view Windows Phone as sort of a middle ground between the totalitarian iPhone and the free-for-all Android. I don't want either, and that's why I think Windows Phone fits me best.
I'll probably get modded down for this, but the same could be said for Linux, particularly on the desktop. Yet Slashdotters don't hate Linux in spite of all the half-finished applications and constant promises that fixes to long standing bugs are "just around the corner," do they?
Seems a bit hypocritical to complain about about this same issue when it comes to a Microsoft product.
There's no -1 for "I don't get it."
Like the typical left-brained slashdotter, I'm a technologist who values my "geek cred".
And throughout WP7's life (especially early, but still today) you need to defy logic and judgement and rational thinking just a little too much in order to buy a WinPhone. You needed to pretend that missing features weren't important. You needed to suffer lies and contempt regarding updates. You had to ignore all the productivity and fun and relevance that other smartphone owners were enjoying. You had to tolerate a weak ecosystem. You had to apologize for Microsoft's mis-steps.
That's just too much.
Slashdot: come for the pedantry, stay for the condescension.
Doesn't matter if they have nothing to do with one another.
People got burned once, they dont feel like getting burned again. Could be the best tasting soup on the face of the earth, but if the last time you came in and found a finger in it, you're not coming back.
I'm a Canadian so I'm not sure how true this is, but I think Europeans tend to look at disdain at Microsoft as a corporation.
I don't know about the rest of Europe, but if the UK is anything to go by, I think you're overstating the case. I don't get the impression that the majority of people really care about MS's abusive behaviour or anything like that (even if they should).
If there's any negativity associated with MS, it's more likely to be due to negative experience of Windows (not all of which will be MS's fault, but *will* be blamed on or associated with them anyway, consciously or subconsciously).
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
Also Nokia had some very good smart phones in the works and then they were dumped in favor of this new system. Financially it make no sense to drop a phone that was ready to be released and to start over. Plus there's this idea that because Elop was from Microsoft that there was something fishy going on in the decision process.
Nokia covers a lot of grounds as a company more than just the tiny smart phone market. But it was losing out to the basic phones from cheap (price/quality) phones from China. It did have a good networking division but split that off into Nokia-Siemens (sheesh, Siemens and then Microsoft, they really do seem to pick the worst partners to get into bed with). I'd put about half the blame on changing markets and maturing competition and half the blame on poor leadership.
You sound like a classic apologist. The summary of this article already happily states that Windows 7.5 is still a immature OS... version 7.5
You say "it takes a little bit of time to learn". Apologists speak for "it is unintuitive as hell but finally after hours of trying, you managed to get it to turn on".
The entire problem with the MS phones is that the fanboys are trying to win the rest over with the same bullshit they have been trying for a dozen or more versions of MS attempts at a mobile OS. If the bullshit hasn't changed a bit, why should we believe the product has?
Lets review, Windows 7.5, the only mobile OS to be single core only. The only mobile OS to be restricted to a single resolution. The list goes on and on. The only people who like it are MS fanboys, reviews are not positive, at best they are "not as bad as expected". The fact is that MS has been producing phones that cost a premium but just can't compete. You can argue whether quad cores are needed or not but charging the same price for a single core is just not on. iPhone does retina displays, MS stays way way way behind in the pixel race.
It ain't cutting edge and it ain't cheap. So why buy it? Because it is MS? As others have said, MS is a negative brand, people AVOID MS if they can because they hate the moments they can't. There are some that are 100% MS and they like it because it stops them having to learn anything else. But the sales are to low to conclude it is just geek prejudice against MS. The sales figures are so low the opposite might well be true, only those with a prejudice against anything NOT MS are buying it.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
You can't really claim that, and forget that it's Microsoft's "patent licensing" deals that are causing that to happen.
82. Need to be plugged in to wall charger to sync wirelessly (a funny definition of wireless) [hehehehe]
113. Bing maps need to tap to get voice direction for next turn. [muhahahaha, I imagine the sucker alone in his car]
115. Compass gives wrong reading in the Southern hemisphere due to bad API in the OS. [MUHAHAHA, a first-world compass]
And the list is long. I recon 20% of those are valid for iOS. But the rest is quite epic. Compounded with the lack of apps, I think the OP has his answer...
Additionally, WP is supremely locked down and jailbreaking is not as simple (or, for some phones, impossible) as it is on Android or iOS. This makes a lot of the things we can do in iPhone and Android impossible in WP. For example, it's possible (and very easy) to backup text messages on iPhone and Android. No way to do this on WP at this time of writing and I don't think they get backed up when you sync with Zune. To worsen matters, WP is *still* vulnerable to a two-year old SMS bug that can make a phone completely inoperable (even after a reboot) when it receives a special text message!
Finally, you need to use Zune to sync stuff. I personally hate using a huge software package to sync stuff, and while Zune is pretty nice, it's still a huge step backward from not needing anything at all on Android.
It's not that Windows Phone is bad; it's just that they don't have anything valuable enough for most Android or iPhone users to switch over. It's great for people new to the smartphone world, but that segment of the market has been pretty small for a while now.
That's true...
Microsoft basically took everything that was good about Windows Mobile and removed it... Windows Phone 7 is MASSIVELY crippled compared to its predecessor, all it has to offer is a shiny UI.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
I don't get the impression that the majority of people really care about MS's abusive behaviour or anything like that (even if they should).
You underestimate the influence of mavens. The average user is not going to drop dollars on a phone or phone plan if their favourite tech expert doesn't like it.
The notable exceptions here would be Windows and iOS, but for two very different reasons. People use Windows because everybody else uses Windows, and it would be just too inconvenient to change. It's a form of lock-in. People use iOS thanks to a combination of effective marketing and design.
Windows phone has little to no lock-in leverage, and MS and its partners have done nothing to pull millions of happy iphonesters away from Apple. Much like Linux on the desktop, it's not good enough for WPn to be as good as iOS, they have to be compellingly better--and convince people of this--to win mindshare at this point. In a karmic twist, MS now finds itself at both ends of this problem.
So with the average user feeling somewhat indifferent about Windows Phone, and their techy friends recommending iphones and android, MS stands without a market until they do something drastic and carve out their own, and it's been decades since they've done anything really significant in that vein.
I am literally 3000 tokens away from the chaotic crossbow --Stephen
You underestimate the influence of mavens. The average user is not going to drop dollars on a phone or phone plan if their favourite tech expert doesn't like it.
True, but the mavens are not motivated by hatred against Microsoft. They are motivated because:
1. iOS and Android have been proven to work.
2. iOS and Android have a large ecosphere of apps. And tech users. And non-tech users.
3. iOS this and Android that.
Apple, Samsung and HTC have repeatedly been on the top of "best phone" lists for years now. Nokia's Windows phone is not being ignored because it is worse or disliked, it is being ignored because no one has one in the first place to offer a recommendation. Under those circumstances it's not good enough to compete, one has to be better. And it's not significantly better.
Nokia's Windows phone is not being ignored because it is worse or disliked
Having tried several W7 phones, I agree with Tomi Ahonen. It's not good enough and doesn't do enough.
9. From TFA:
"Reason 9 - the OS is deficient. The Windows Phone OS can seem exciting when first seen with its 'Tiles' but on short usage it reveals how limited and unfinished it is. The tech reviews after using Windows Phone (and Lumia) are quite consistent that Windows Phone is not yet ready for prime time. It may become so in the future, but its not yet nearly competitive with advanced OS platforms out there."
Android works for me. iOS works for many others, and Microsoft's phones bring nothing compelling to the table to make either switch.
"I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."