RIM Drops Playbook Price By 66%

YokimaSun writes "Following on from the news that RIM's partner was pulling the plug on its BlackBerry phones, RIM announced it was discontinuing the 16GB version of its playbook, PC Gaming News are reporting that the PlayBook is being discounted down by as much as 66% which is adding to the demise of RIM's attempt at the tablet market. Can anything stop the all conquering iPad?"

Comments

Biased much?

[Quakeulf]

From the summary it sounds like an advertisement for the iPad.

Re:Biased much?

[ozmanjusri]

Yep.

Can anything stop the all conquering iPad?

And yes.

Around half of the tablet users are now on Android, according to a recent study brought out by the Online Publisher’s Association or OPA. To be exact, 51% of them have the Google-branded device, 52% are on iOS tablets, while 8% are on those with other platforms, such as Blackberry OS.

Re:Biased much?

[fa2k]

To be exact, 51% of them have the Google-branded device, 52% are on iOS tablets, while 8% are on those with other platforms, such as Blackberry OS.

Did someone put a Google sticker on their iPad or did they install iOS on an Android tablet?

Re:Biased much?

[Lunix Nutcase]

How about figures based on sales numbers not some study of a couple thousand people where the selection criteria and error margin is left out.

Re:Biased much?

[RoboRay]

In breaking news, it is no longer illegal to have both an iPad and an Android tablet.

Re:Biased much?

[Kjella]

So 51+52+8 = 111, it was a multiple choice study and 11% has more than one tablet? That sounds way too high for me.

Re:Biased much?

[Nemyst]

I know business degrees don't usually require you to know how to count, but it's the first time I've seen marketshare stats touted around that add up to 111%.

As much as I'd like that to be the case (competition is good), I'd have issue trusting numbers with such flaws. Either it's quoted out of context or the people who did it flunk stats 101.

Re:Biased much?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because there's no way someone would have both an iPad and and Android tablet.

Re:Biased much?

[RoboRay]

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

Read the comment I replied to... He didn't understand why the percentages didn't add up to a nice 100%. Obviously, because you aren't limited to owning just one of the options.

Re:Biased much?

[h4rr4r]

Not all of them. The thing is MS is not competing in that space though. The bad ones are sub $200, and the cheapest "surface" is going to be $399ish.

Re:Biased much?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nearly all of that 51% would be the Fire. No other Android pad has found any real success.

Re:Biased much?

[milkmage]

market penetration is nothing without profit.

Re:Biased much?

[WankersRevenge]

Nope ... it's just the editor trolling for comments, for the story itself isn't that interesting. This has been happening a lot since Malda left. Apple has become a rather polarizing issue on slashdot so any article with even the slightest mention of Apple tends to draw a lot of people out of the woodwork to throw feces at each other. It must be great for ad revenue, but as a long time reader, I'm quite bored with it and find myself skipping over a lot Apple related discussion even though I'm an iOS dev.

These days I find myself more at Ars than I do here which is a shame since I used value the discussions here in such high regard. Oh well.

Re:Biased much?

[cpu6502]

So any reason to buy this discounted RIM tablet? I don't really see the need when I have a desktop, a laptop, and an internet-capable phone. The tablet seems pointless.

Re:Biased much?

[twistofsin]

Or it's not an either/or situation and some people own multiple devices from more than category.

The stats make perfect sense if you allow for the possibility that some people own an Android tablet AND an iPad.

Re:Biased much?

[nedlohs]

Take a fucking guess.

Re:Biased much?

[catseye]

Exactly. Who still comes to Slashdot for "honest debate"? This is trollsville, from the articles on down. I come here to fuck around, I go elsewhere to learn something.

Re:Biased much?

[catseye]

Dude, stop kidding yourself. Slashdot has always been a laughing stock, and Rob Malda, et al. never took it particularly seriously, despite any protestations they may have had to the contrary.

It's like 4chan, but without the funny.

Re:Biased much?

[thomasw_lrd]

I may be biased, but I tend to disbelieve stats that don't add up to 100%. According to basic math, they are saying that 100% of tablet users use 111% of tablets?

I understand that some people own more than one tablet, but I don't think they really count as users for a study like this.

Re:Biased much?

[toriver]

What, you never heard the one about "we're losing money on every unit but we'll make it back in volume"? :)

Re:Biased much?

[toriver]

Except for all the people returning the Surface RT because they mistook it for the later-coming Surface Pro.

Not sure if Fire returns after Christmas have been deducted from the Android numbers though.

Re:Biased much?

[cjb-nc]

I have two tablets, and both are android. Is that one vote or two?

Re:Biased much?

[PCM2]

I think it's a pretty safe bet that no way would 1 in 10 tablet owners have both.

Re:Biased much?

[slaker]

The RIM tablet doesn't really add anything over and above other 7" tablets that might run Android. Kindle Fire and Nook Color devices can be had for less. All of those really need work with third party firmware to be made legitimately worthwhile.

I own a whole bunch of tablets, including a (work-provided) ipad2 and several options from first-tier Android OEMs. In general, the best use I've found for them is consumption of ebooks, webcomics and product manuals. My favorite device is an 8.9" Samsung Galaxy, which has the 1280x800 screen resolution of a larger Android tablet but weighs about 2/3rds what the 1" larger ipad2 does. That's a lovely combination of form factor and usability.

I guess I could get away with doing the same things on my phone as I do with my tablets, but a 4.3" screen really doesn't have the same level of utility as a 7" or larger one.

And regarding your question, I'm sufficiently annoyed by all the drawbacks to iOS that I would never consider purchasing an Apple device for myself. Data sandboxing and format limitations drive me insane.

Re:Biased much?

[rtfa-troll]

This is slashdot, not a courtroom. Who gives a shit.

Actually, part of the fun of Slashdot is identifying other posters on their assumptions, lies, debating tricks, misdirection, ad hominem attacks, use of correlation as a sign of causation, failure to use a car analogy and so on. If you have the right attitude it's even fun (if a bit painful) when other people do it to you. Look at this and you learn a fair bit. For example, a repeat post of the same material which has already been discredited is actually modded much higher than the original. Why the hell? How did he achieve that.

Why is cpu6502 reposting the same thing anyway? To me it looks like he wrote up a post in an editor and then cut and paste it again forgetting that he had posted it before. How could he forget that? Is he really posting on so many accounts in parallel, or does he just have some really good shit. On the other hand, it could be because he's part of one of the Astroturf groups? His post is actually pretty valid if you ignore the wrong number in it. I don't see how it fits into the months corporate targets.

If you start asking questions like "why the inquisition" next you'll be asking "why am I posting on Slashdot". You don't want to go there.

Re:Biased much?

[MightyMartian]

It would be based on units sold, not on number of people who own tablets.

Re:Biased much?

[shmlco]

"To be exact, 51% of them have the Google-branded device, 52% are on iOS tablets, while 8% are on those with other platforms, such as Blackberry OS."

To be exact... no. 28% of the 51% are Kindle Fires, and they are not "Google-branded" devices, they're Amazon-branded devices. In fact, they're not even specifically sold as Android tablets, even though they run a forked version of 2.3.

Re:Biased much?

[godawful]

Or, you have studies like this.
http://gigaom.com/apple/android-tablets-ipads-still-see-wide-gap-in-mobile-web-use/
Which say the complete opposite thing. Now granted, this study does exclude nook and fire, but apple sold 55 million ipads through 2011, and around 13 million the first quarter, so nearly 70 million total.. I think we'd know if the nook and fire had sold enough to really balance that lead shown in _this_ study out.

Re:Biased much?

[Tiger_Storms]

To be exact, 51% of them have the Google-branded device, 52% are on iOS tablets, while 8% are on those with other platforms, such as Blackberry OS.

I find your lack of Math disturbing, 51% + 52% + 8% = 111% Considering that is an impossible number I believe you need to start linking some hard core data to back up what you are talking about. Also, if you were trying to be Exact about it you would have noticed your numbers where wrong in the first place.

Re:Biased much?

[atriusofbricia]

In breaking news, sales figures are more meaningful than some study of unknown quality. When it comes to sales, iPad still blows away the competition by a large margin.

Without bothering with a reference....

Is that when one compares iPad Vs Individual Android Tablet Model or iPad Vs Android Tablets.

One is a meaningful comparison, the other isn't as useful.

Re:Biased much?

[Tiger_Storms]

It's about market share, not about who own's the device. you can not have more than 100% of anything when it comes to making money and ruling the world.

Re:Biased much?

[Nethemas the Great]

You've never evaluated the various pads from Asus have you? The Eee Transformer Prime and Transformer Pad are quite capable of eating iPads for lunch from a technology perspective. As for MS, they've had a rather poor track record in the mobile space. Not so much for lack within the OS but more with respect to their marketing department and their entry timing. That isn't changing anytime soon and it is sure to spell certain doom for their position in the consumer market.

Re:Biased much?

[narcc]

They discontinued the 16gb version. 32gb+ models are not discontinued. They're releasing an updated tablet with LTE later this year.

Oh, the current PlayBook, 16gb model included, will also get updated to BB10.

Bash RIM all you want, but you can't deny that their new OS (QNX-based, btw) is impressive both technically and from UI perspective.

Re:Biased much?

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

I have my Galaxy Tab hooked up to an iCade running MAME. I dig it! One of these days I'm gonna see if I can find an HDMI cable for the Tab so I can play the games on the big screen.

Re:Biased much?

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

I think it's a pretty safe bet that no way would 1 in 10 tablet owners have both.

Why not? Maybe a bunch of iPad 1 owners decided to try Android on the next run.

Re:Biased much?

[shutdown -p now]

The bad ones are sub $200, and the cheapest "surface" is going to be $399ish.

More like $599, if the recent links are correct.

Which is to say, exactly the same as iPad 32Gb (for Surface, 32Gb is the minimum you can get). Definitely not competing against budget tablets.

Re:Biased much?

[Eponymous Coward]

And the Android tablets are measurably bad, so there is hope for the Microsoft yet

There are already lots of Windows tablets out there. It seems that a lot of people believe Surface will succeed because it's a better fit for corporate needs than the iPad is. Well, the current crop of Windows 7 tablets (some of which are very nice) are a better fit for corporate needs than either the iPad or the Surface yet nobody is buying them. I do agree that the Android tablets have been pretty dismal, but I think that's mostly because there isn't much software for them. It's all about the developers and Microsoft isn't interesting to non-corporate developers any more (ie the people who are passionate about software are not passionate about Microsoft).

My prediction is that Surface will bomb and Microsoft will scrap it and have something even better planned for Q1 2014. It will be tied to the XBox brand rather than Windows.

Re:Biased much?

[DrXym]

There are some pretty decent Chinese Android tablets coming out now for less than $100. There will be numerous branded 7" tablets under $200 before long probably including the one Google is launching soon. Microsoft's problem is the bottom and medium tier will be filled with Android devices and not many people are going to pay iPad prices for something which isn't iPad. At least not for crappy Win RT devices. Microsoft may have better luck with proper Windows 8 devices providing they're not too expensive.

Re:Biased much?

[ArhcAngel]

Are you questioning whether you need a tablet or whether to get THIS tablet? Nobody "needs" a tablet but I find I carry my PlayBook around the office a lot and it is a great tool (I have an Android tablet but haven't used it nearly as much). In my case it is made ever more capable because I still rock a BB phone. The two devices combine via the BlackBerry Bridge software on the phone. Once connected your data on your phone can be accessed on the PB including your wireless data whether or not you have a tethering plan (AT&T modifies the Bridge software to prevent this but you can get the unmodified version easily). The hardware can't be beat for this price (3/5 MP cameras/ gyroscope / and a fricken magnometer!). It has the most feature complete browser of any tablet with HTML 5 and Flash 11.2 support so most sites look the same as they would from your PC. And since the PB can run Android apps (and possibly iOS apps in the near future) there are plenty of apps to choose from.

Re:Biased much?

[schnell]

I think it's a pretty safe bet that no way would 1 in 10 tablet owners have both.

I think the issue is what we're considering a "tablet." Technically, I fall into the above definition even though what I have is an iPad and a Kindle Fire. The iPad is my multifunction "tablet" device and I really just use the Kindle Fire to read books. If you excluded e-reader Android "tablets" from the numbers they might be very very different.

Re:Biased much?

[incalito]

On US market maybe. In other parts of the world it could be different. In my country the cheap (~250 USD max) chinese Android tablets, usually with Ice Cream Sandwich, 512 MB RAM, 1 GHz CPU, 10" touchscreen, are on the rise, while I know only two people personally who own an iPad.

Re:Biased much?

[beerdragoon]

I think this might be the study he was talking about (percentages are slightly different, but close). It does say the reason why the values don't add up to 100 is because some people have multiple tablets but I agree, this does seem kind of high. It may be because people don't tend to toss/sell their old tablet when they buy their new one. I know my dad still has his original iPad even though he already bought a new iPad3.

Re:Biased much?

[squiggleslash]

11% doesn't seem particularly high, considering:

- People buy tablets professionally, and end up getting multiple platforms
- People buy complementary tablets, such as an iPad or Transformer, and a Kindle Fire
- The "Gets lost behind a couch, never to be even looked for again" uselessness of the platform probably leads a few people to try a different tablet after being disgusted by the first one they get, thinking it might be better. Likewise all the crap tablets.

Seems reasonable to me.

What bothers me about the story is it lumps Android tablets together. As an Android advocate, I may "like" the fact that gives Android a high market share, but seriously, there's a world of difference between the Kindle Fire platform and, say, Ice Cream Sandwich. Even as a developer I might target both in an app I write, as a Unix person might target FreeBSD and Ubuntu, but I wouldn't consider them the same environment.

Re:Biased much?

[Nethemas the Great]

I seem to remember something about an antenna problem... just saying.

Re:Biased much?

[ChunderDownunder]

The latest hipster word mashup for a PHone-tABLET. Essentially a phone with a screen > 5".

e.g. the Galaxy Note.

Re:Biased much?

[alexandre_ganso]

Please explain "lots". I just came from media market, and there was the ipad3, the ipad2, the very nice samsung ones, a couple of cheaper android ones, and ZERO windows tablets. To be honest, the closest thing I've seen to a windows 7 tablet was a thinkpad with pen support and that was able to fold the screen all the way down. Battery life was about 3 hours in a good day, it is 1 inch thick and weighs 2kg.

Re:Biased much?

[alexandre_ganso]

If you said 1,1%, yes. Don't extrapolate your house to the world.

Re:Biased much?

[alexandre_ganso]

The opposite is much more probable: after trying one of those crappy 200 bucks android 2.3 tablets, people just got an ipad1 for cheap and are happier with it.

Re:Biased much?

[oztiks]

Too all you Apple bitches who cant take it that their beloved brand is playing catch up to Samsung and Microsoft.

Plus the Ultrabook from Samsung is abuzz showing that you can have a thin device, good power consumption and a fully working OS.

FACT - Ultrabook is as thin as an iPad and can do 2x as much.

iPad cannot handle a fully pledged OS therefore struggles to fill the gap of the entire computing experience.

FACT - Its a mobile OS, try running Photoshop on it - you cant.

The fact Phablets are out several months before Apple's clone comes out

FACT - Apple announced it would be out is Sept, Samsung has had theirs out for 6 months already.

Lets see you dodge those facts with your brainwashed "but Apple is soo good because it's shiny" .... Assholes!

Re:Biased much?

[Eponymous Coward]

The Samsung Series 7 Slate machines are pretty nice (IMHO). Acer and Gigabyte would probably be my next choices. As a Thinkpad owner, I would never recommend them.

I think Microsoft came very close to getting it right this time, but they weren't bold enough.

Re:Biased much?

[oztiks]

Hehehe ... Apple is run off a balance sheet now that Jobs is gone, accept it.

Re:Biased much?

[Phoghat]

And the Android tablets are measurably bad, so there is hope for the Microsoft yet...unlike what you would hear on /.

Personally, if they come in at a proper price point, Surface tabs are going to sew up the business end of the market. iPads are great appliances, but a tablet, with a case and keyboard, at the same price? No contest.

Re:Biased much?

[cpu6502]

I corrected my mistake right here, in that same topic. Maybe if you stopping hating, your eyes would clear-up and you'd be able to SEE the posts right in front of you:

Re:I don't see the outrage (Score:2)
by cpu6502 (1960974) on Friday June 15, @06:55AM (#40337971)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/29/warren-buffett-taxes-berkshire-hathaway_n_941099.html [huffingtonpost.com]

It's actually 1 billion not 1 trillion (oops). Still my point stands: The politicians let guys him & other megacorps go slide w/o consequences, but instead go after us who owe just 0.0001% as much. Why? Because the rich & corporations buy immunity.

Corporations that paid zero taxes:
http://www.alternet.org/economy/150387/2_3rds_of_us_corporations_pay_zero_federal_taxes%3A_us_uncut_movement_builds_to_make_them_pay_up [alternet.org]

Re:Biased much?

[squiggleslash]

Huh?

Re:Biased much?

[jesa98]

51% Android, 52% iOS, 8% other... 111% of tablet users?

Re:Biased much?

[ZarelTgr]

Around half of the tablet users are now on Android, according to a recent study brought out by the Online Publisher’s Association or OPA. To be exact, 51% of them have the Google-branded device, 52% are on iOS tablets, while 8% are on those with other platforms, such as Blackberry OS.

OK, that's nice. How about the other 29%?

Re:Biased much?

[anomaly256]

Too bad it's still $600 here in AU for the 16gb playbook ($800 for the 64gb). Despite our dollar being slightly stronger than the US. Maybe if RIM weren't imposing foreigner tax on everyone they might do a bit better.

66%?

[Anonymous Coward]

Its been available at 199 for quite a while now, its only 30$ less

warranty in case of bankruptcy?

[rbrausse]

not that I'm highlty interested in a playbook - but does RIM have a contingency plan for insolvency and still outstanding product warranties?

Re:warranty in case of bankruptcy?

[Lunix Nutcase]

Yes, it will all be nullified by the bankruptcy proceedings.

Re:warranty in case of bankruptcy?

[squiggleslash]

I believe they're sitting on a large body of cash and in no danger of going under any time soon.

What I want to know is how they've fallen so quickly? Yes, Apple and Android have taken up the marketshare RIM once enjoyed, but of a much larger market than was around when they ruled the roost.

Why is RIM completely unable to use the larger market that exists to sell more smartphones (yes, I know this story is about tablets but...)?

Re:warranty in case of bankruptcy?

[Lunix Nutcase]

Because their phones are clunky and offer nothing you can't get elsewhere. BES is not really a selling point these days.

Re:warranty in case of bankruptcy?

[INeededALogin]

I believe they're sitting on a large body of cash and in no danger of going under any time soon.

It is a public company... no reason to "believe" or guess...

1.77 Billion and falling.

Re:warranty in case of bankruptcy?

[squiggleslash]

That's not an explanation, that's an observation. BB has had years to fine tune its phones, to make them fit into the newer market. The fact that many of its phones are clunky shows they haven't done this, or haven't done it enough.

Why?

Re:warranty in case of bankruptcy?

[poetmatt]

Classic innovator's dilemma + lack of willingness to take risk to compete. aka classic big corporation fear of risk = competitors jump in quickly and take over. RIM hasn't been competing in almost 7-10 years, even beyond android they were never competitive in comparison to phones such as motorola's line of Iden 7&8 series phones and the Nokia's before that. All they ever had was the checkbox of "enterprise friendly". which is now expected of all companies and no longer a selling point for RIM.
As a similar example - android, iphone and windows phone are more towards stagnant iterative changes than "amazing new developments" anymore. Polish vs real innovation. So I wouldn't be surprised to see new competition eventually comes in, even if it takes another 5 years.

Re:warranty in case of bankruptcy?

[Octorian]

They are using the "larger market" to sell more smartphones. The problem is that most of that market is outside of the US, and thus completely ignored by the US-centric press during their weekly rounds of RIM-bashing.

Re:warranty in case of bankruptcy?

[lambent]

Laziness and complacency. Innovation is hard. It's long been show in the technological marketplace that copying someone else's ideas (and thus letting someone else spend their money on R&D), then selling a knock-off, is a financially viable business model.

RIM just hasn't made a good copycat, yet. If they're able to ride out the storm for long enough, they'll figure out the right balance of rip-off and shininess to produce a viable product again.

Re:warranty in case of bankruptcy?

[jbolden]

Up through about mid 2010 their total userbase was still growing, but slowly. With a few exceptions like Dec 2011, they've been losing users even in the face of a growing market. Basically, even people who own and like BlackBerry find the competition more compelling. Because the vast majority of the cost is the carrier data fees they can't compete on price. Of cours if they were willing to move down market to the prepay carriers and go back to their strong suit: email and texting they could be a dominant player, but I think a company that still views itself as being essentially on par with Apple has a tough time building a strategy around fighting for the $12-20 / mo market. Further going low end might poison their ability to still sell to enterprise customers, where they do still have (but are losing fast) real advantages.

Re:warranty in case of bankruptcy?

[alen]

RIM's sales are actually dropping now, not just a smaller piece of a larger market. they are now burning cash

RIM was good for email, that's it. app world sucked.

MS Exchange email is much better on my iphone and droid. i usually get the full email and not a fragment. i can read large emails in the NYC subway.

and my iphone has apps. yesterday my wife was worried that the kid's heart was beating too fast. no worry, there is an app for that. i measured his pulse and it was OK

oh, and most iphone apps work outside of BES/network connectivity

Re:warranty in case of bankruptcy?

[Lunix Nutcase]

No they aren't. In their own statements their global sales are in a slump. If the were selling more phones their head of global sales wouldn't have resigned in May because of... poor sales.

Re:warranty in case of bankruptcy?

[erroneus]

It amazes me how much trouble companies go through in order to avoid using free software. Just amazing. Apple did it but they locked it up by going with only BSD stuff. HP and RIM both avoided Android hoping that Android didn't matter as much as having "a tablet" did. (Hello? How long have you guys been working in the technology industries? Software is ALWAYS more important than the hardware.) Nokia did it too. They wanted to create their own thing... what? Twice? Three times? Now, still trying to avoid Android, they went with Microsoft?

This sort of denial is a kind of poison which should be used to kill CEOs of these companies. They should all be smarter than that.

Only one company has historically ever gotten away with the tactic of creating their own software/hardware ecosystem. That company is Apple. But in exchange for their success in this, they have to accept their limited corner while the bustling world of business goes on all around them.

Re:warranty in case of bankruptcy?

[Xeno man]

Because they ruled the market first as they were the only one. When you control 100% of the market share, there is no return on improving your product because you can't capture more market share, so you focus on selling. When competition arrived with better products you can do nothing but loose market shares. Increasing sales becomes the goal to return to former glory days so product improvement still falls to the wayside. Now RIM is so far behind they are doing nothing but trying to catch up while still making no improvements or innovations of their own.

Re:warranty in case of bankruptcy?

[Tridus]

Smartphones are part tool, part fashion accessory. RIM's phones completely fail at the fashion accessory part today. They're simply not the "it" device anymore. That sent sales in the consumer space into the tank.

On the other hand, the phones are also clunky when it comes to serious app use. They're really good as *phones*, but a lot of people don't actually make many phone calls on their smartphones and instead use them as small computers.

Re:warranty in case of bankruptcy?

[poofyhairguy82]

I think there are a few reasons why RIM didn't catch up.

Part of it was complacency. Upper management believed for far too long that RIM was unbeatable, and by the time they actually changed course it was too late.

Part of it was a lack of talent. RIM tried to make an all touch screen phone early on (the Storm came out in 2008) and it was terrible. By the Storm 2 it was obvious that the development team at RIM couldn't handle a keypad-less world, and that BB's OS couldn't keep up with the iPhone.

Part of it was poor choices. RIM worked to change OSes to fix that fact that the old BB OS didn't handle touch very well, but they made the mistake of biting on the iPad hype and they put out a tablet with the new OS before a smartphone with the new OS. The tablet failed miserably, which lost all momentum for RIM's new platform.

Part of it was a lack of vision. RIM has had some good ideas, they just lack the vision to take them that extra step. They had the first great communication platform with BBM, but they didn't think to make it seamless with texting like Apple did iMessage. They basically had the popular Kindle Fire before Amazon did, but they didn't think to try and take the "cheaper than iPad market" until it was too late.

And finally part of it was the market they catered to. Business users are often not a fan of rapid change, especially if that means the IT department has to redo how executives get their email every year. RIM ignored the consumer market for too long- when the iPhone started getting tons of fun apps you got the sense that RIM was happy its phone wasn't a "toy." By the time Apple's "toy" had added in some business functionality to encompass RIM's target market, RIM had nothing fun to offer consumers and fight Apple on their own turf. By the time they had their fun "toy" device (the Playbook, its in the name) they had to rush it out so quickly that it completely didn't fit their core market (it didn't even have email). Hence today's news.

Re:warranty in case of bankruptcy?

[Gilmoure]

Actually the BES is their strong point. Rim should transition to enterprise mobile management and set up their .bes to monitor/control all platforms' mobile devices.

'Course, MS is hoping to get their foot in the door, mobile wi, by leveraging their enterprise management tie ins.

Re:warranty in case of bankruptcy?

[Gilmoure]

Some tech guy once said "It's better to cannibalize our own sales then let someone else do it." or something to that end.

Re:warranty in case of bankruptcy?

[Gilmoure]

Yup, we're finding that our IT ticket system's mobile client only works on BB's with keyboards. The touch screen ones don't let you toggle stuff on the system. 'course, this ticket system only has a web front end and it's heavy Flash interface. Kinda sucks balls.

Re:warranty in case of bankruptcy?

[Microlith]

Nokia did it too. They wanted to create their own thing... what? Twice?

The irony is that they went full standard Linux, rather than Google's almost completely independent source base. Maemo, MeeGo, Meltemi, all had far more in common with common Linux distributions than Android.

Going Android basically makes you dependent on Google, and no one really wants that. Nokia, for what it's worth, effectively got taken over from the inside.

Re:warranty in case of bankruptcy?

[Lunix Nutcase]

They also fail at being a useful tool as well. Almost no one thinks BES is a selling point these days, their Exchange support sucks, their touchscreen phones are terrible and even their hardware meyboard phones have lately been sub-par. They have no really compelling product and the Crackberry dinosaurs are an ever shrinking group.

Re:warranty in case of bankruptcy?

[hawkinspeter]

You should try OTRS (http://otrs.org). It's a very capable ticket system and has a well behaved web front end and a decent iPhone client as well.

Re:warranty in case of bankruptcy?

[Hadlock]

believe they're sitting on a large body of cash and in no danger of going under any time soon.

What I want to know is how they've fallen so quickly?

Probably because they sat on that large body of cash for years and years, failed to invest it in improving their product, and hardly improved the OS between 2006 and 2010 (largely just bug fixes and better screens (color, then higher resolution) as they came down in price), meanwhile Apple and Google were dumping hundreds of millions of dollars in to their products. Business users/buyers don't generally like change, but there was a watershed moment with mobile phone products market, and RIM decided to play it safe for too long.

Re:warranty in case of bankruptcy?

[Tiger_Storms]

I honestly think it's because they've done nothing to make the black berry start up faster, it can take anywhere from 2-4 minutes depending on the device and how many apps you have installed, and yet Apple and Google products take less then a minute to reboot? I'm sorry but when it comes to my data I don't want to have to wait up to 4 minutes to be able to get back to texting/calling after each time I remove an app from my cell phone. I believe RIM's lack of choice on improving their market for getting and installing apps was their final nail in the playbooks coffin.

Re:warranty in case of bankruptcy?

[narcc]

RIM isn't insolvent or even close to closing up shop. Their user-base is still growing, ffs! They reported their first loss in q1, though that was from the inventory write-down. They've scaled back staff (most likely those supporting their old OS) which is rumored to save them ~$1B annually.

In contrast, Sony posted their 5th straight quarterly loss yet no one is claiming "Sony is dying" -- Slashdotters were crying "RIM is dead" back when they were still the #1 selling smartphones on the market!

This particular meme has little merit. I'm sure it's fun for some, though I don't understand why.

Re:warranty in case of bankruptcy?

[narcc]

LOL! Someone hasn't used their current handsets or seen their new OS in action.

What's in like in 2010?

What does RIM offer above the others? Security, best-in-class remote management, and Balance (seemless work/home separation on the handset no one else does this.)

Your knowledge is WAY out of date.

Re:warranty in case of bankruptcy?

[DrXym]

Going Android basically makes you dependent on Google, and no one really wants that. Nokia, for what it's worth, effectively got taken over from the inside.

Tell that to Baidu and Amazon who've basically forked Android. Or for that matter RIM who stuck an Android runtime in the Playbook without Google's permission. Nokia could have done the same if they so wished, or gone with Google's version and stuck their own QT runtime in there as a migration path for developers.

Re:warranty in case of bankruptcy?

[narcc]

even their hardware meyboard phones have lately been sub-par.

The keyboard on the 9900 is almost universally recognized by reviewers as the best mobile keyboard ever made.

I'm going to go ahead and guess that you've either never used a BB or haven't touched one in the past 3 years.

Why do people feel the need to bash other companies that *haven't* done something evil? What's the point?

Re:warranty in case of bankruptcy?

[cmdrbuzz]

Aww bless you for trying! What color is the sky in /your/ world ;-)

Re:warranty in case of bankruptcy?

[Just Some Guy]

I'm sorry but when it comes to my data I don't want to have to wait up to 4 minutes to be able to get back to texting/calling after each time I remove an app from my cell phone.

Huh? Why would you have to reboot your phone after removing an app?

Re:warranty in case of bankruptcy?

[narcc]

So... what do you disagree with? I'm sorry that the facts don't fit your preconceptions. Maybe you should learn something about the topic before you discuss it?

Re:warranty in case of bankruptcy?

[spire3661]

You are thinking exactly like RIM. There is FAR more to a modern pocket computer then a good physical keyboard and secure email. Also, RIM's 'evil' is in their stupidity and hubris. We bash them for being retards. We bash them for saying things like this " you will never see a Blackberry with a camera".

Re:warranty in case of bankruptcy?

[squiggleslash]

Thanks for your enlightened contribution to this discussion.

At least narcc is trying to present useful information.

Re:warranty in case of bankruptcy?

[squiggleslash]

What really sucks is that after rebooting his phone after uninstalling his app, to make a phone call he has to go to Start Menu -> All Programs -> Microsoft Phone -> Microsoft Phone Dialer, then wait two minutes for the splashscreen to finally disappear and the phone app window to open.

Re:warranty in case of bankruptcy?

[Just Some Guy]

I genuinely can't tell whether you're joking.

Re:warranty in case of bankruptcy?

[Blakey Rat]

It also didn't help that they were a total pain-in-the-ass to carriers. That was ok back when they were a huge draw for people to buy data plans, but when you're being outsold by Android and iOS devices, and carriers hate dealing with your devices, they're going to stop selling your devices.

Re:warranty in case of bankruptcy?

[narcc]

We bash them for being retards. We bash them for saying things like this " you will never see a Blackberry with a camera".

Big outdated yawn.

Look at their new products. The RIM you're bashing is long gone.

As for the Camera issue, indeed, at the time it made absolutely no sense for RIM to offer a phone with a camera as the bulk of their customers were not allowed to have a phone with a camera at their place of work!

That was how many years ago? 7 or 8 years? They've had camera phones since at least 2006.

Why not bash Apple for the Newton or the "toaster" they came out with? How about for releasing a "smart" phone without the ability to install apps, MMS, or copy/paste?

Get with the times!

There is FAR more to a modern pocket computer then a good physical keyboard and secure email.

Indeed. RIMs products offer MUCH more that that, and have for *years*. Try to keep up. It's not difficult.

Re:warranty in case of bankruptcy?

[spire3661]

OK, you want modern: Playbook, a tablet that launched well after the ipad, cant get its own email...... It relegated the playbook to existing BB users only.

Re:warranty in case of bankruptcy?

[erroneus]

If there was a Microsoft Android, all I can say is "watch out."

It would run most all of the existing android app base and then have MS Windows compatibility elements to help enable "enterprise" functionality and you have an instant blackberry replacement which Microsoft could use to rule the mobile business market in extremely short order.

It would be my worst fear, but fortunately, Microsoft is too arrogant to take that route.

Re:warranty in case of bankruptcy?

[narcc]

Uninformed again, I see.

What it didn't have was a native email client pre-installed. A quick trip to AppWorld and early adopters had an email client.

You also forget how accessing email, etc. through Bridge was incredibly useful to businesses. You know, the people who were still trying to figure out how to manage and deploy tablets in the enterprise. With RIM, it was a solved problem. Drop a stack of PlayBooks off at a department and leverage your existing smartphone infrastructure.

No additional management was necessary. A lost tablet was no big deal as all the data stayed on the already-managed phone, gone from the tablet the instant it was out of bluetooth range. Users could easily share tablets, just pair the tablet with the new user (it takes seconds) and they've got all their files, email, contacts, etc. instantly on the tablet with the old users stuff gone without so much as a thought. Again, RIM was the only company that had the enterprise in mind and provided fantastic solutions to meet the needs of early business adopters.

The tech-press bashed them, sure, because they didn't take 10-seconds to think about it. Funny how they bashed RIM for "missing" email (which was always there) when they gave the iPhone a complete pass even though it was severely lacking in features including the ability to install apps, which you'd think would be essential to any so-called "smartphone". Why you think it's important to parrot their nonsense is beyond me.

So, no, it did not in any conceivable way limit the tablet to existing BB users only. Want email? Download an app. Ta-da! Problem solved.

Re:warranty in case of bankruptcy?

[erroneus]

Yes, "limited corner." Apple does everything "consumer oriented" and they do everything in their power to keep it that way. They will not do anything for "the enterprise." They have tried in some half-assed ways, but they just wouldn't commit to it. Remember their server? Servers really. And look at anything they might have ever tried which could be considered "business oriented." Is it? Not really, no. The only thing I can think of that doesn't fit with that is their excellent MS Exchange support in iOS devices. (That's really pretty good, but it's a client... where's their mail server?)

So yes, "limited corner." "Right now" most all touchscreen phones and tablets are novelty devices. They play video, games, music, pictures, chat... But with a growing hole being left open as RIM dies, someone will want to step in to fill that void and exploit that market opportunity. Will it be Apple? It's not in Apple's character to do so. But then again, Steve Jobs is dead... things could change.

Re:warranty in case of bankruptcy?

[hairyfish]

But with a growing hole being left open as RIM dies, someone will want to step in to fill that void and exploit that market opportunity. Will it be Apple?

It will be MS. WP is a good product, and MS already has the corporate market sewn up, so assuming they don't royally fuck the Win8 , Phone/Tablet/PC/Console/Server integration piece, my prediction is that MS will clean up in the mobile space in the next year or two. Apple has locked themselves into a corner so won't be able to keep up with the rapidly changing market (again - hello 1991), Android like Linux is flexible but fragmented (I'm a huge Android fan but the laggy UI and version support is disgusting), RIM is dead, so MS has the perfect opportunity to repeat their success of the mid 90's. Offer a product that is 'good enough', but offers a ubiquitous UI across the board (enterprise, corporate ad consumer) and customers will fall in your lap.

Re:warranty in case of bankruptcy?

[ozmanjusri]

Help yourself.

http://source.android.com/

Re:warranty in case of bankruptcy?

[Tiger_Storms]

With my 8350 when you remove an app you had to reboot the phone, any and all apps even if you just installed them. Now with their new BB app system you can remove them if they don't require too much access, like a game but if they have access to call logs or text's then you have to reboot. their newer phones might not have this issue but it's one that's anoyed me for years.

Re:warranty in case of bankruptcy?

[chrish]

You mean sort of like this?

BlackBerry Mobile Fusion helps make managing mobile devices faster, easier and more organized than ever before. From a single, web-based interface, provision, audit and protect mobile devices, including BlackBerry smartphones, BlackBerry PlayBook tablets and devices that use iOS and Android operating systems. This unified approach helps provide secure mobile access to work email and data in a cost-effective way.

Re:warranty in case of bankruptcy?

[cheekyboy]

his point is, that like WM7, and obscure OS's , there are fuck all apps available for those systems.

Load up a nokia , search for apps, oh there isnt 30 variations of one app, there might be one app of X type, even then its probably 3 years old and shit.

Re:warranty in case of bankruptcy?

[cmdrbuzz]

I have a question? Are you a ten-year old child? Why else would you add someone to your "foe" list when they post a reply to someone who (judging by their previous comments) works for RIM Marketing and is attempting to bail water out of the Titanic with a bucket? Too late, Iceberg has already totalled the ship...

Best of luck with your anger management issues (after looking at your blog, you might want to chill slightly)

It's possible

[JBMcB]

Someone can beat the iPad. It will need to be substantially better (nicer UI, better hardware, longer battery life, etc...) at the same, or lower price.

Another problem is Ecosystem - Apple has a fantastic selection of movies, music, apps, etc... The closest competitor in that area is Amazon, which is probably why the Fire is the only tablet gaining significant market share against the iPad.

Re:It's possible

[jimicus]

Lose the fixation on price.

Seriously, it's dangerous. The entire PC industry has spent twenty years concentrating on "Cheaper! Cheaper! Cheaper!", look where it's got us. About the only company in the computer industry that's really making good money is the one that doesn't repeat "Cheaper!" like some sort of mantra. Most of the others are making spectacularly low profits considering their turnover.

Re:It's possible

[Russ1642]

This applies double to airline tickets. Consumers are the ones pushing for Cheaper! Cheaper! Cheaper! and look where that's got them.

Re:It's possible

[Lunix Nutcase]

Free prostate exams?

Re:It's possible

[dkleinsc]

The entire PC industry has spent twenty years concentrating on "Cheaper! Cheaper! Cheaper!", look where it's got us.

It took the price of a desktop PC from about $3600 to about $500 (in 2010 dollars) over that period, all while massively improving the technology. Yeah, that's a real loss.

See, here's the thing: What's a loss for the PC industry in terms of higher margins is a win for every industry and consumer that uses PCs for anything. That competitive pressure would cause the price to go down isn't a flaw, it's capitalism doing exactly what it's supposed to be doing.

Re:It's possible

[Coward Anonymous]

It's not chanting it but it has everyone beat on price.

Re:It's possible

[Lunix Nutcase]

Sure, until it drives those OEMs out of business or forces them to sell their PC divisions because they can't make any money and 10s if not 100s of thousands of people get laid off in the process.

Re:It's possible

[JBMcB]

And yet there are still TONS of companies making PCs. Go figure.

Re:It's possible

[Lunix Nutcase]

Yeah because they've moved most of their PC building to China and laid off people domestically just to keep a hold of their meager margins.

Re:It's possible

[Post-O-Matron]

Yeah but that company has the i-factor, this mysterious elixir that makes people get addicted to your meaningless electronic toy products as if they were crack.

Without that companies have to compete in an actual free market, where trying to be economically efficient and lowering your price is the key to survival.

Re:It's possible

[Herve5]

That's not untrue. I for one would definitely have bought a playbook at their initial price, would it be only from being fond of Canada and afraid of monopolies.

The thing that stopped me at the time, other than the lack of email software (now solved I understand), sadly was their key feature: the very secure way they protect data transmissions led them to hardcode many things in the Playbook, with the result simple ad filtering was rendered impossible.
(no mangling in the background with the link to internet is, of course, a security feature)

I really wanted this filtering. I really discussed in really wise and geeky forums. The only way to do it would have been to recompile the browser with an added filter : too much for me.

BTW, is there an ad filter now on the Playbook? 8-)

Re:It's possible

[nine-times]

I agree. I think that's part of where the Android tablet market has failed to steal Apple's thunder. Android makers keep trying to compete on price, saying, "Hey, we make something kind of like an iPad, but it's $100 instead of $500!"

And sure, there's a market for that. There are business applications, and I'm sure there are a bunch of happy Kindle Fire owners. On the other hand, they achieved that low price point by skimping on the hardware and design. The $100 Android tablet isn't as powerful and doesn't have as nice of a screen. The development team spent less time thinking about the ins and outs of the the design. It's simply not as nice of a device, and that's reflected both in media hype and sales.

If you want to beat Apple, make a better product.

Re:It's possible

[the_humeister]

And yet the company that makes the most money selling its PCs (ie Apple), still has computer production outsourced to Asia. If they moved their PC production back to the USA, they would not go bankrupt.

Re:It's possible

[Gilmoure]

*golf clap*

Re:It's possible

[Registered Coward v2]

This applies double to airline tickets. Consumers are the ones pushing for Cheaper! Cheaper! Cheaper! and look where that's got them.

From where I sit it's gotten them a lot. Sure, I no longer get white glove service but I'll gladly give that up for the cost savings I enjoy. My flight costs have gone down from $400 or more per flight which opens a lot more business opportunities for me.

Re:It's possible

[nedlohs]

Yeah because the Apple counter example to "cheaper, cheaper, cheaper" doesn't have any of their devices built in China. Not a one!

Re:It's possible

[roman_mir]

You people don't understand money at all, it's not about any specific price, it's about the spread between all costs and the sales price. That's all there is. If the components, elements, labour costs are falling, then the price of the final product is falling.

It's not like any of these companies are operating at a loss, they are making money, but they are exactly what happens in free market - there are many competitors, they are really improving the quality of the product and finding ways to sell it at a lower price, but they are MAKING money, not losing it, that's because they find ways to bring down the cost of ALL components (including labour and taxes obviously), and it's all good for the people who are buying these products, they are the winners in this.

That's the problem with the governments and the belief system that it's all about jobs.

It's NOT all about jobs, we do NOT want jobs, we want the final product. Gov't causes prices to go up because of price fixing, rules like the minimum wage, destruction of competition, inflation.

The funny but also sad and stupid thing is that people have been led to believe that gov't somehow lowers the prices and creates more competition. Nothing can be further from the truth. The famous and completely wrong example is Standard Oil, it's famous, because it's almost the only example anybody has been taught at school, and it's wrong, because it's a great COUNTER example to this stupid idea. Standard Oil had over 150 competitors by 1911, it also became a large player from only having 4% of the market in 1969, but the way it did it is by increasing efficiencies.

Just like these hardware companies are lowering the sale prices, Standard Oil dropped the prices over their entire existence, from 30 cents per gallon of refined oil to 5.9 cents per gallon by 1899.

The gov't broke the economy of scale and allowed a bunch of losers to enter the market to 'compete', but in reality all it achieved was the prices for oil stopped falling. Gov't shouldn't be in business helping certain businesses against others, all while causing prices to go up.

From late 17 hundreds to 1913, prices in USA have been falling for consumer products, while quality, quantity, innovation, infrastructure, credit worthiness, standard of living and savings have been rising. ALL of this was achieved without gov't regulations, without income taxes, without the Fed and IRS.

The times when USA had busts in 19th century was when gov't did get involved, like with the printing of the Continental currency. Soon enough they'll be saying 'not worth a Federal'.

In any case, here is the point: nobody is losing money on selling all this hardware. These are not banks or car companies or houses, they are not propped up by the gov't, if they lose money, they'll go out of business.

They are making money on spreads, they push their costs down, that's how they compete - by providing more and more of their product to more and more population. That's why everybody has a cell phone today.

RIM isn't going out of business because of their prices. They are going out of business because of their inability to understand the market.

Re:It's possible

[jimicus]

Yeah but that company has the i-factor, this mysterious elixir that makes people get addicted to your meaningless electronic toy products as if they were crack.

Not true.

Apple have learned - and really taken to heart - a few home truths about selling products that most of the rest of the computer industry has sadly missed. The fact of the matter is that people are emotional creatures, and do not buy products for purely logical reasons. (They may invent logical reasons in their own mind after the fact to justify a purchase, but they sure as hell don't base the purchasing decision on it!).

If you make a list of reasons people may buy a product - and attach a greater profitability to each item in the list as you go on - the list goes in roughly this order:

  - Product/service - what the product or service is.
  - Benefits - how aspects of a product might provide some sort of benefit.
  - Results - the immediate result one might expect from the product.
  - Value - what value one might place on those results.
  - Emotional Value - how that value might have an emotional impact.

Note I said "value", not "price". Raw price on its own is actually a pretty bad selling point. You wouldn't think so, it doesn't make much logical sense - but people aren't all that logical. (They also have a short attention span, so unless you can get emotional value across within about ten or twenty seconds, you're wasting your time).

Now, go take a look at Apple's website - or indeed any of their TV ads. They show you the product and immediately demonstrate a result that people will tie some sort of emotional value to. They don't say "you can do video calls", they show a shot of someone calling their mum with FaceTime. They don't say "we have voice control", they show someone out jogging instructing the phone to play Daft Punk. The prospective customer is already thinking about how they'll use the feature to make their life easier before the advert's even finished playing. Each advert mentions perhaps one feature and assigns emotional value to it.

Most other high-tech companies don't even attempt to do this.

Re:It's possible

[gstoddart]

I for one would definitely have bought a playbook at their initial price

My personal advise ... don't.

I bought one for my wife for Christmas through a friend who could get me the $99 employee pricing. The browser crashes a lot, the interface she finds a little clunky in places, and there's really not all that much software for it.

Every time it locks up or otherwise pisses her off, I have to endure the withering glares from her.

Overall, she's somewhat underwhelmed with it. And, judging by their downward spiral of late, it could become abandon-ware.

Re:It's possible

[jimicus]

If you want to beat Apple, make a better product.

I don't think it's as simple as that.

Like it or not, the iPad has become the gold-standard tablet. Most of these clones appear to have been developed through a very simplistic process: put together a tick-list of every feature on the iPad, the product is ready to sell when 70-80% of those features are met.

The problem is, if you base your product around "75% of what the market leader can do", you'll always be 25% behind them. And when the market leader has the supply chain worked out so tight that your absolute best shot is "75% of what the market leader can do for 90% of the price!", your product doesn't look terribly attractive.

The entire process needs to be re-written. It shouldn't be "let's create a 75% iPad clone", it should be "Here's a rough idea of the form factor, let's build the absolute best device we can with that form factor".

Re:It's possible

[tlhIngan]

It took the price of a desktop PC from about $3600 to about $500 (in 2010 dollars) over that period, all while massively improving the technology. Yeah, that's a real loss.

See, here's the thing: What's a loss for the PC industry in terms of higher margins is a win for every industry and consumer that uses PCs for anything. That competitive pressure would cause the price to go down isn't a flaw, it's capitalism doing exactly what it's supposed to be doing.

Yeah, that's why I can buy a 1080p monitor for $200, Or if you want a 15" laptop that has something better than 1366x768.

The real price of computing hasn't gone down - it's still around $1000-1500 for a decent laptop (which is admittedly cheaper than in the past, but for the last few years, prices dropped, but decent PCs haven't). All that's happened is manufacturers have found more ways to build to a price.

Even then it's not so successful - try buying a netbook these days. What was once a flourishing segment with dozens of models is now reduced to a few.

Hell, we all bitched when hard drives got into the cost-cutting game and ended up with warranties down to a year (which sitll do exist - though higher priced retail ones can give you up to 5 again).

All the innovation that's happening is less technology, and more "how can we save a penny on this part" or "do we need to use this expensive chip when this older cheaper one works?" (and still call it validly an i3/i5/i7 CPU, though last-gen), etc.

Re:It's possible

[dkleinsc]

It's NOT all about jobs, we do NOT want jobs, we want the final product.

You're generally right, but wrong about this point. We want the final product to be sure, but in order to afford to buy the final product we need jobs to earn the money to buy the final product, and right now what is scarce is not stuff but jobs. Hence the emphasis on jobs.

Re:It's possible

[GerryHattrick]

Got one for my wife (to go with her Blackberry) and she loves it, much preferred to daughters' iPads. To me, 'Bridge' pairing is a bit creaky and the fact that you can't use the USB for storage would be a killer. Nicely-made kit, though. Never locked up once.

Re:It's possible

[nine-times]

It shouldn't be "let's create a 75% iPad clone"

Oh, I agree. When I said, "make a better product," I didn't mean "make a better product than you're making." I meant "make a better product than the iPad." Undercutting them on price isn't going to be good enough, especially not if you're doing it by cutting features or the quality of hardware.

Either re-imagine the tablet again, or come up with a couple killer features that will attract a large market. And no, it won't be good enough to make it more hackable/customizable, add different UI skins, or provide different ports. You have to allow common users to do something better and more easily. You have to create a superior user experience.

Re:It's possible

[gstoddart]

Wow, wonder why you are having better luck.

Like I said, the browser locks up all of the time, after coming out of hibernate it loses its network connection, and the interface for the browser seems not so well adapted for a touch interface in that it can't tell the difference between scrolling and clicking some times.

My wife doesn't have a Blackberry, and neither do it. But she's had endless problems with it and occasionally gets quite frustrated with it.

There are days I fear she's going to smash the damned thing. ;-)

Re:It's possible

[jo_ham]

Not really. There are tons of companies assembling pre-made parts into computers, but the actual construction of the things that go into a PC has slimmed right down to just a few large-scale manufacturers, with most of that happening in Asia.

The entire operation operates on razor thin margins that can only really work with high volume sales.

If you are a higher-level "manufacturer" like Dell, Toshiba, HP, Apple etc, then you are limited by what parts are available to you. Unless you have the purchasing power to make it worth while for a component maker to do something custom for you (like Apple) then having custom parts made for you is expensive and drives up costs to the end user - which is very tough in a race-to-the-bottom PC market. Subsequently, the PC you buy from Dell, HP, Toshiba or even Apple doesn't really differ all that much. The cases are different, but that's most of it. If you want ethernet, there's a small number of controllers for that, if you want audio, the same is true. If you want wireless, again you have a small selection of components.

If anything is going to create a monoculture in the computing industry it will be the relentless drive from consumers that says PCs must be cheaper cheaper cheaper!

Re:It's possible

[Truedat]

Lose the fixation on price.

Are you talking to the customers or the vendors?

Re:It's possible

[shrykk]

A tablet that's just like the iPad but better seems unlikely for now. Better in every way and a lower price? That does happen sometimes in the tech world - but more likely competitors will prosper with a different form factor, or with different input methods, or focus on a killer app.

The Playbook is a nice litte device and is differently shaped to the iPad - no reason it can't coexist. People ought to resist the temptation to cheer on Apple like a favourite team, and be glad of variety instead.

Re:It's possible

[GerryHattrick]

Reminds me she had problems with WiFi until 2012 update, WEP never worked, WPA2 is now rock solid. No touchscreen problems (just asked). Restore factory settings and all updates? But she might not be so enthusiastic if she didn't use a BB too.

Re:It's possible

[jimicus]

Manufacturers/vendors, and those who would tell manufacturers what to make.

Consumers aren't fixated on price; if they were Apple wouldn't have enough cash sloshing around to buy Belgium.

Re:It's possible

[hairyfish]

A lot of cheaper flights? I just bought some flights to Singapore, normally $900+, down to $400 with one of the major carriers new LCC. I've flown lots of airlines in all the classes and unless someone else is paying, I'm happy to take the cheapest ticket I can get.

Re:It's possible

[hairyfish]

If anything is going to create a monoculture in the computing industry it will be the relentless drive from consumers that says PCs must be cheaper cheaper cheaper!

You forgot to mention how this is bad? I prefer computer prices AND quality today than 10 years ago. Same goes for airline tickets. Win! Win! Win!

Re:It's possible

[Herve5]

Thanks for this! I'll definitely check this.

Re:It's possible

[Truedat]

Consumers are absolutely fixated on price, there are "race to the bottom" markets everywhere you turn. That there are so many cheap and shoddy goods in the world is precisely because customers choose to buy them over higher quality but more expensive ones. Companies like Apple succeed because there are a smaller number of wealthier customers who have the luxury of being able to ignore the price tag to a greater extent.

If todays companies start to raise their quality and prices then fine, some of them may succeed. But then there will be a whole bunch of companies that take their place so that the net result is no change at all. Consumers will see to that.

Re:It's possible

[jo_ham]

If anything is going to create a monoculture in the computing industry it will be the relentless drive from consumers that says PCs must be cheaper cheaper cheaper!

You forgot to mention how this is bad? I prefer computer prices AND quality today than 10 years ago. Same goes for airline tickets. Win! Win! Win!

It's bad because eventually the drive to lower and lower margins will mean it's an unattractive industry to join, thus the established players will simply stagnate and innovation will halt. Choice will go down, and while your computer may now be cheap cheap cheap, it will be whatever the one or two manufacturers who are left decide it will be.

Re:It's possible

[dkleinsc]

Capitalism tends towards monopolies.

Only in markets where the economies of scale are greater than the diseconomies of scale up to the entire volume of the desired product. There are plenty of markets where there's no monopoly and no real tendency for monopoly, such as high-end restaurants.

Old news

[tearmeapart]

Was done in January and again in February:
http://liliputing.com/2012/02/blackberry-playbook-price-drops-to-199-permanently.html
http://www.pcworld.com/article/247202/rim_selling_playbook_tablets_for_300_each.html
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/technology/tech-news/rim-chops-all-playbook-prices-to-299/article4085706/
http://www.berryreview.com/2012/01/29/shop-blackberry-confusingly-returns-playbook-prices-to-199-16gb-299-64gb/

Yay slashdot!

Huh?

[mister2au]

What's a Playbook?

Drop it by 90% and I might bother looking up what it is and why it would conquer the iPad ...

Re:Still not interested

[TheNinjaroach]

since the Playbook requires a Blackberry phone for network connectivity.

Where in the world are you getting this??

What OS support is available

[AwesomeMcgee]

What community OS's can i get up and running on the hardware of this thing? Android? Linux? iOS?

Which ones are most stable? Can someone say a few words about the hardware speediness itself, how does it stack up compared to a Tegra 2 for instance?

I may just jump on this if they are dropping the price that much, why the hell not if it's a decent piece of hardware.

Re:What OS support is available

[kidgenius]

You can't get anything up and running on it without hardware drivers. Good luck getting those.

Re:What OS support is available

[Octorian]

It currently runs the BlackBerry "Tablet OS", which is basically QNX 6.6 with a different UI layer on top. Its has very good multitasking, and yes, you can SSH into it.

Re:What OS support is available

[shutdown -p now]

Is it rootable? is the bootloader locked?

Re:What OS support is available

[Octorian]

It was rootable due to a desktop backup/restore issue, but I believe that has long since been fixed.
However, the bootloader is locked, and that has never been cracked.

Only wish that it was android based.

[WindBourne]

I would buy it in a heartbeat.

Re:Only wish that it was android based.

[a_mari_usque_ad_mare]

The playbook is actually a pretty good tablet. The hardware is great, though I wish the screen resolution was a little higher. As it is, the screen is great for reading in landscape, but portrait is a little cramped.

The OS is quite good, I have tried the ios and android and find this the most intuitive of the 3. The playbook OS makes it obvious which of your apps are running, and let's you run things in the background if you wish. The OS in general feels polished and well thought out. The app store is surprisingly well supported, but it is missing 3rd party support for netflix, Skype, and the like. Also, you can wake the tablet by swiping the screen.

That said, I would have a hard time recommending the playbook because of 3rd party support and how it has fared in the marketplace. Too bad, RIM has a nice product here.

Re:Only wish that it was android based.

[WindBourne]

Oh, I have coded on QNX. Great OS. Good company.

The issue is that once the playbook dies, so will the apps for it. Few will develop to it since it did not have a large enough market. Basically, unless you have a NEEDED app on it, OR unless Android/Linux is ported to it, there is no real incentive to buy one.

If only CM9 ran on it

[TheHaven]

Much like the Touchpad, if you could run a decent implementation of Android on it then it would sell pretty damn fast. There's not much evidence of any development just yet although rooting is do-able.

Nice hardware. Blackberry OS - not so much.

[techstar25]

I recently had a chance to play with a Playbook. It's a great piece of hardware. It's a great machine for $169. If somebody could get Android 4 running on it, these things technically should outperform anything else in it's price class.

Re:Nice hardware. Blackberry OS - not so much.

[haus]

Who cares?

If the only way these things will sell is at firesale prices, then you can guarantee that there will be no long term supply, hence not worth the ongoing efforts of a developer. Just bury them in the desert next to the unused Atari cartridges and move on with your life.

Re:Nice hardware. Blackberry OS - not so much.

[L4t3r4lu5]

I take it by "long term" you mean "hardware lifespan". Well, my HTC Desire HD is currently on year 2 of community support through XDA Developers, CyanodenMod, many other AOSP communities and modders, despite lots of new hardware being available. If Playbook really does have great hardware for the time (as did the Desire HD), then it will continue to be supported.

This is news for nerds, and nerds love to tinker with stuff. Where did you think you were?

Re:Nice hardware. Blackberry OS - not so much.

[spacepimp]

The Kindle Fire was basically a rebranded PlayBook. That was about 8 months ago released for $199. To drop the prices to $169 now is to pay actually what the hard is really worth. The OS on here really doesn't have a value add, as the App selection and the future of it are all grim looking. Even at $169, I couldn't suggest this to anyone when a new Google branded tablet is nearing release next week at Google IO.

Re:Nice hardware. Blackberry OS - not so much.

[spacepimp]

But your phone runs Android, and was able to be unlocked, have the bootloader replaced and use custom ROMs. RIMs security measures and efforts have been very strong to prevent jailbreaking and modding these devices. They have made certain that those who buy these devices are locked into their shrinking and smoldering ecosystem.

Re:Nice hardware. Blackberry OS - not so much.

[Dzimas]

Rubbish. The myth that the PlayBook and Fire are equivalent was started by a blogger who thought they looked physically similar. Inside, the PlayBook is far better hardware. The Fire has only 8GB flash and 512 MB RAM, the base PlayBook has twice that. The PlayBook has a far better screen (viewing angle, contrast, color saturation), the PlayBook also has Bluetooth, a 5MP rear camera capable of shooting 1080p video, a 3MP front camera and a significantly better OS.

Re:Nice hardware. Blackberry OS - not so much.

[Mechanik]

If somebody could get Android 4 running on it, these things technically should outperform anything else in it's price class.

In theory it will run Android apps already if you repackage them into .bar format (not something your grandma will do, but doable for geek types). The problem is that they run in a shitty emulator that likes to freeze or crash a lot.

Re:Nice hardware. Blackberry OS - not so much.

[ChunderDownunder]

Yeah I wondered about the emulation required for their 'android player'. It sounds like a virtual machine (dalvik) running inside a virtual machine (player).

If they don't already implement dalvik natively on QNX and in the process shoehorn native libraries compiled for bionic/linux, it might make the integration less "shitty".

Re:Nice hardware. Blackberry OS - not so much.

[yabos]

Community support is good and all, but the vast majority of people aren't going to know about or be bothered with something like that. If the manufacturer doesn't provide updates then they'll just stay with what they have, or upgrade their device.

Could somebody slap the /. editors in the head?

[mykepredko]

How is reporting on an eBay sale (for the second time in what two, three days) "news" of any kind, much less for nerds?

Now that it's happened twice, I wonder if /. is hurting so bad that they must resort to advertising stuff their putting on eBay.

What's next, IBM is in trouble because you can find PCjrs on Craigslist for under $1.00?

C'mon guys, pull it together,

myke

Re:Could somebody slap the /. editors in the head?

[whoop]

Or just do a look 'round the interwebs yourself. The story is it's price drop from $500 to ~$200. Walmart, Best Buy, a couple other retailers all have the playbook at that price range.

So it's bigger than one seller on eBay if you'd look around...

Re:Could somebody slap the /. editors in the head?

[whoop]

You must be new here. I've been around long enough to know the editors don't do anything but copy a story a user submits. Occasionally, they'll fix a typo, but that's about it.

To The Fainting Couches!

[American AC in Paris]

Can anything stop the all conquering iPad?

Of course something can. Something eventually will.

If that something is a tablet, it'll need to be something that has measurably better hardware, a superior form factor, a superior operating system, and an easier media acquisition and management chain. "Easier" and "better" here mean "easier and better for regular users", not "easier and better for power users"; our days of supremacy in this regard are gone, folks. Failure to win on all of these points means you're starting with an inferior product against a superior product with a massive head start.

If that something is not a tablet, it'll need to be something that renders the tablet paradigm obsolete; whether that something is Google's glasses project or something entirely different remains to be seen.

If neither of the above happens, then we simply need to wait for the day when Apple loses its direction as a company and stops making devices that meet their current standards. Then it's open season.

Re:To The Fainting Couches!

[jittles]

Most places in the United STates. They close the parks, usually a half an hour after sunset (twilight or civil? Who knows). The purpose behind this is to prevent crime, drug dealing, prostitution, and other things from occurring at your local park.

Re:Still not interested

[LaRoach]

When RIM launched the playbook it didn't have native email apps for security reasons. In order to use email and calendaring you had to own a blackberry and tether it or something like that. This lead to a lot of confusion on what it's internet capabilities actually were. See here for some details: http://crackberry.com/why-rim-launching-blackberry-playbook-without-native-email-client-and-why-may-or-may-not-matter-you

Nice hardware, shame about the apps

[s7uar7]

I bought a Playbook just before Christmas when the price dropped to £169 but have just bought an iPad to replace it. The PB hardware and OS are good, what killed it for me were the apps. There's no Kindle, Skype or Netflix, for example, and on the BB app store $1 = £1, so what apps there are felt pricey.

Re:Nice hardware, shame about the apps

[s7uar7]

Netflix in a browser requires Silverlight which the Playbook doesn't have. One redeeming feature is that it does have full Flash support, but I can't say I've missed it on the iPad, particularly as the BBC and YouTube both have alternate delivery methods.

Re:Still not interested

[Octorian]

And if you don't have WiFi available, it can tether over Bluetooth to any device that supports Bluetooth tethering.

The only thing you need a BlackBerry phone for is "bridge", which is a feature that makes certain apps and data on a BlackBerry phone available via the PlayBook's UI.

Windows 8

[jbolden]

One of the nice things about Metro is that to get all the features you'll need:

excellent quality and responsive touch screens with higher dpis
a very good built in trackpad
light weight

All of which are expensive. So Microsoft is on your side.

Re:No.

[Tridus]

So all those people buying iPads that don't have any other Apple equipment are really just blind Apple fanboys?

Yeah, that must be it. It couldn't possibly because it happens to be a good device or something...

Re:Still not interested

[isaac]

It still doesn't have native BES connectivity. If it did, it might have actually sold.

Unfortunately, RIM decided they'd rather use it as a sales vehicle for their phones.

That didn't turn out so well.

The end.

Re:Playbook is actually not a terrible device

[Overzeetop]

How often do you find a bluetooth capable printer in a business office (or a hotel for that matter)?

I'm not going even attempt to defend apple's f'd up printing requirements (and lack of official support for a client passthrough), but that seems like a pretty rare case.

I have one - and it rocks

[DG]

I got a 16Gb the first time they were deeply discounted.

It was a little buggy at first, but the OS2.0 update completely fixed that.

It's blazing fast, multitasks, plays Flash, is a decent form factor, and gets incredible battery life. And now it runs Android apps to (I ported Androku over to it to run my Soundbridge - easy)

For as much as people seem to love throwing rocks at RIM, the Playbook is a great product.

DG

Re:I have one - and it rocks

[mister2au]

OK - think I see the problem ....

Australian pricing is NOT discounted so its $579 for 16GB version ... compared to $429 for 16GB new wi-fi iPad .. would explain why I have never seen one in store or in use by anyone

Under $200 is probably a good buy, nearly $600 isn't

Re:I have one - and it rocks

[Anonymous Coward]

RIM is not dead. I remember when Apple was on its last legs.

RIM still makes superior products in many ways. My Blackberry has tons of little features that make it a much better business tool than an iPhone, not the least of which is the keyboard. Plus, I get longer battery life, and I've dropped the SOB hard at least 50 times.

Re:I have one - and it rocks

[hairyfish]

I just bought a Samsung Galaxy Tab 7.7 32GB (wifi only) for $360AUD*. $600 is ridiculous. *on special, sold out now sorry :)

Re:No.

[Gilmoure]

Of course not. All Apple sales are due entirely to marketing. All Apple customers are brainless zombies (with more money than techies) whose only concern is how cool they look; they associate the Apple logo with pennyfarthing bikes, handlebar mustaches, Gucci bags and Calvin Klein jeans. Most of them never even use their Apple swag; they just go around showing off the logo because that's all they care about.

Re:No.

[toriver]

Yes it does. If you think only "fanbois" buy iPads you fail@business. It's like believing only zit-faced parent-basement-dwelling teens buy PCs.

Re:No.

[toriver]

At some point I guess we will tire of trying to counter ignorant Apple haters, and get on with our lives, leaving you to your own stupidity.

Until then, expect counters.

What companies have failed to do with tablets

[Targon]

The problem for RIM has come from MANY sources when it comes to tablets. The first, that apps written for one Blackberry device do not automatically work on all Blackberry devices is a huge issue, and that makes it very difficult for developers and even consumers, because you never know if the app you want to use will work on your particular device. Now, tablet sales are almost directly in relation to how well the PHONES are selling, so the fact that RIM is having problems with their phone sales will also cause people not to bother buying the tablet.

Palm/HP had the same problem, where a lack of good advertising, combined with a low consumer mindshare for the webOS phones meant that people were not running out to by a Touchpad until the price came down to the $200 range. The $200 and under range is where people are willing to spend the money on a tablet without being concerned about apps and such, while a $400+ price means people need to WANT one before they spend the money.

There is one other issue that the tablet market has, the price of a normal laptop. If you can get a fully functional laptop running Windows 7 for $400, then why buy a tablet for $500 or more that in general won't be as functional? Reading books would go to the Kindle, or long battery life would be the big reasons, but what if you are not sure that a given product will do what you want it to do? This is where advertising, but also the need to generate HYPE for a product is needed, but prices really do seem a bit inflated in the tablet market, and that is the problem. Companies that want to compete with Apple need to be willing and able to sell products at virtually zero profit for three to five years to get enough market presence to increase prices. Sell tablets for $200, or offer financing to get the price down that people need to spend, and people will buy.

Re:No.

[Lunix Nutcase]

Yeah, except for the newest iPad, a large portion of the sales were to people who had never bought a single Apple device before. Those are hardly fanbois.

Is the playbook hackable?

[i_ate_god]

At $169, I'd buy one if I knew I could hack around with it. Try to install different OSes, repurpose it entirely as something else, like a coffee table screen that I can use to interface with the media pc, lights, and other things?

Anyone know?

Re:No.

[garyoa1]

Well I'll agree with the marketing end of this statement. After all, Jobs was a marketing genius. No one can deny that.

He started off by giving thousands of machines to schools. What happened? Students first look at a machine was apple. They get out of school and have no clue how to use a PC so they're buying macs.

Enter Adobe. When they bought photoshop (Yes, bought it, they didn't produce it) it was pretty much the state of the art program but it was mac based. So, you did graphics, you bought apple. When Adobe finally ported it over to the PC they never noticed that the PC blew the mac format away. (Yes, I've used both. No comparison)

But with the investment in the mac software as well as hardware, graphic designers were kind of stuck with the mac. Not to mention the learning curve from mac to PC. (Time is money!)

So new designers go with mac. Because it's better? Nope. Because everyone else who designs uses them.

I feel sorry for recent hires @ Research in Motion

[Artifex]

They just wanted nice RIM jobs, but are going to get it up the ass instead, when they have to re-enter the job market.

Re:Still not interested

[Ed Avis]

I love how "for security reasons" is the new euphemism meaning "for completely stupid reasons".

Building a mobile device is not like building a PC

[uslurper]

(I dont count laptops as a real mobile device because of their horrible battery life and need of a lap or desk.)

Great care must be taken with mobile devices to blend the size, weight, battery life, features, connectivity and usability. A loss of any one if these and you have a limited lifespan device. You CANNOT just scrap together a metoo device like you can with a PC clone in a beige box. It takes multiple research, design, review, re-design loops to get it right. Then you need to get the market to accept it. That all takes time. So expect another 2 years before the Ipad has competitor good enough.

Check for $$$

[DarthVain]

No doubt how they are usually handled.

A couple of years ago, I had my AC fail. It was under warranty. When I tried to collect, I found that the company that built it was bankrupt, they didn't build it anymore, and parts were not being made. The company that sold it (who the warranty was with) basically sold the warranty portion to another company that probably specializes in this sort of thing. After finally getting things figured out, the basic gist was: "You had a 5 year Warranty, you have 3 years left on it, thus using a bizarre calculation (Likely the Value of the Unit * Percentage of Warranty left), we calculate your Warranty is actually worth 265.05$. We will send you a check, good day." Never mind what it cost to actually replace the unit... Anyway it really was a take it or leave it, so I was at least happy I got a couple hundred bucks, as it was better than nothing.

So if your 300$ playbook breaks after 2 years on a 3 year warranty, you might get 100$... maybe.

Kind of a shame

[DrXym]

The Playbook is actually a quality piece of kit. The hardware is top notch, truly high qualilty, the software is slick if a little feature lite in places. The main failing of the device is it's not Android. It's too bad you can't root these things and flash android on. I suspect if devices could be flashed to Android that people would buy them up without a discount just for that purpose.

false premise

[roc97007]

That a single company can't produce a popular device in a very diverse environment, doesn't mean that any of the other participants are "all conquering".

Except to fanbois.

Re:Building a mobile device is not like building a

[roc97007]

Sigh. You were doing so well, until the very end. The ipad has competitors that are "good enough" right now. Just not, as it happens from Rim. (Or any scrapped-together me-too device called "Surface".) But to Apple fanatics, no competitor will ever be good enough, simply because, as a competitor, it lacks the fruit logo. With Apple fans, there isn't any point in discussing a competitor that is "good enough", because nothing could possibly be. It's a null exercise.

branding

[mevets]

| It will be tied to the XBox brand rather than Windows.
Will they call it Xune?
I was really hoping they would tap the âoeiPad killerâ meme onto this new one. It was such a joy watching wave upon wave of iPod Killers sink without a trace. Maybe Surface is a play on that?

For shame slashdot

[Sark666]

I cannot believe this made the front page. At first I'm thinking really? They already slashed them from 499 to 199 last year and then I saw the article and it's linking to an ebay sale. Are you fucking kidding me?! What happened to slashdot... I see it was posted by timothy. Please go away timothy .

Re:"me too" adopters

[Kergan]

If by "real users" you mean the geeks, that's a rather small market share in the long run for MS.

details on the Adroid 'wrapper'?

[Herve5]

Now that I know there indeed is a native ad-blocking browser available I'll probably buy one this week-end.
As concerns 'Android apps can be run on it' things are less clear to me anyhow. Can I just go to the Android market and boom, or is there something like the need to repackage, resubmit or whatever?
Any details on this would be welcome ;-)

why the bootloader issue

[Herve5]

I think here is one of the key issues with the Playbook.
I'd have bought one full price on day one if I could have filtered ads on it, and the first thing I asked for was, can I insert a system-wide filter on outgoing comms.
I quickly understood that most of RIM pride, and efficiency, was about securing comms, in a manner nobody, nowhere, would manage to crack them.
Which is definitely a cool feature.
But this very feature led them to things like bootloader lock: they WANT nobody mangling into your comms...
So, I understood there was no chances ever, that I could implement my filter trick. And then I waited instead of buying.
Now, since then there is a 'local-solution': a guy is proposing an alternative browser, probably based on the very same engine, but with various added features among which filtering. It's quite late, only local (so this won't filter ads in an RSS reader for instance), but I'll buy it.
It's just, well, late...

another IOS foobar

[cheekyboy]

the iPad cannot show iPhone HD apps, in full screen even tho it has the res. It shows them in SD 4" mode which is shit.

I mean seriously, what utter lame fuck tard programmer did this for? Apple, you can be good sometimes, but you still have SHIT PROGRAMMERS or SHIT MANAGERS.

2nd. You cannot run 2 apps at once, in split screen ode. That would be very useful. ie, google latitude on one half, and a chat program on the other half.

Get a clue apple, start making cool shit. Get some new blood in the dev teams, stop stagnating.

just like the PC market in the 80s

[cheekyboy]

Remember the 80s and the 30+ home computer makers out there?

The ones which were FUN and came in more flavours and were cheaper and not restricted were the most popular ones, ie the plain PC & MAC & C=

90s started to change and get more business like, and more network orientated thanks to the internet/lan.

never see BB ads on tv

[cheekyboy]

Out of say a sample of 6 months, and 1000s of ads for droids and iDevices, the occasional Nokia ad for Wm7.

Zero, totally Zero for BB, in AU.

Walk in to cafes, shops, transport hubs, 90% of people are holding an iDevice, or Samsung droid.

Only some grey haired oldies have BB.

Re:No.

[toriver]

Apple make design-decisions (like prioritizing UI speed to make the interaction smooth instead of laggy like on Android) based on mass market needs. The nerd herd of Apple haters whine about tech specs noone else is interested in, and wonder why their design preferences are not more popular since of course anything else is Wrong. And because of their lack of business understanding they invent stuff like the "reality distortion field" or this "sheep mentality". Sadly, it seems these nerds have found employment in some companies, and thus doom their employers to insignificance because they did not get it and will never get it.