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Laser Treatment For Earth-Bound Asteroids
arisvega writes "A recent publication (for the math-versed) proposing the deployment of a Solar-powered, space-borne fleet of LASER cannons that would deflect Earth-bound asteroids caught the attention of international news agencies. Do you think this ambition can in reasonable time turn into a fair-priced, life-saving (or indeed Biosphere-saving!) project, that will be to the benefit of all mankind? How threatened would you feel from the possibility of this proposed array being hijacked by extremely depraved individuals, ones capable or guilty of great crimes? And, are you not glad that now someone has published a paper on it, so Megacorp cannot 'patent' this Earth-saving idea?"
sharks with friggen laser beams in space muahahahaha
I think Bruce Willis might be enough...
Lasers with sufficient energy density to cause gaseous phase change of asteroid surface materials might not be strong enough to do anything impressive on the Earth's surface... lots of atmosphere to get through here.
The idea of a fleet of lower powered satellites is also less likely to be hijacked than a single "super cannon" - though, if you control the whole fleet, I suppose you could "turn up the heat on the Kremlin" if you ever wanted to....
Lets make sure we follow patent laws.
"And, are you not glad that now someone has published a paper on it, so Megacorp cannot 'patent' this Earth-saving idea?"
But don't forget, when lives are stake we have to make sure the laser is FCC approved as well.
"hijacked by extremely depraved individuals, ones capable or guilty of great crimes"
Like, say, the government of America? Is that your point?
> How threatened would you feel from the possibility of this proposed array being hijacked by extremely depraved individuals, ones capable or guilty of great crimes?
Not very. And if the array can be abused, wouldn't anyone who has control of the array be capable of great crimes by definition? Come on, if you're going to spread FUD at least put some effort in it. Mention China or Communism or Muslims. I feel scared already.
> And, are you not glad that now someone has published a paper on it, so Megacorp cannot 'patent' this Earth-saving idea?"
There isn't any money to be made here. Getting those lasers in orbit is very expensive, and once they're up there you can't go the 'pay up or else!'-route because the world will simply give you the finger and impound your stuff. Why any company would want to patent this idea is beyond me.
Our current ability of detecting asteroids and predicting their course is not nearly enough to interfere with them, there's a lot of development in both detections and simulation that has to be done before we can even think of trying to deflect an asteroid.
What I predict is a project that will go wayyyyyyy over budget, have the number of components made in proportion the amount governments contribute, and it won't work well; even the though the "tests" will show it WAD.
As far as MegaCorp patenting the system, well, what will happen is that all of the key technology making the system possible will be patented making the unpatentability of the system a moot point.
Doesn't matter, all the spoils will go to whoever is the most politically connected.
This next week's winning lottery numbers are: 1,2,3,4,5,and 42.
If companies can't patent it, it's hard for them to make a business case for it, so they won't develop it. Since 'space' is transitioning to the corporate domain, it's in the same boat as research on DCA to treat cancer - no company will invest because they can't control the results.
Either way, people are going to die.
If patent system could avoid that way mankind's survival, then we don't deserve to survive already.
Diverting the asteroid means, that 1) we can track it accurately
2) the lasers have enough accuracy to hit the asteroid on the same spot, and not cancel each other out
3) the asteroid isn't spinning (but this might allow it to slow down a bit)
..........FULL STOP.
What can fire up, can also fire down. In a time of war, these platforms would be redirected at the Earth.
That much is obvious.
if you don't give me 100bil I will destroy Washington D.C., and then additional major cities each hour, using a giant "laser"
Sure, I'll give you 100 billion bits. Got a spare hard drive lying around here somewhere...OH, you wanted dollars. Sorry, ain't happening.
Put the lasers on the far side of the moon. That way, they could never target Earth. You'd only be able to hit the asteroid for fourteen days out of every twenty-eight, but hey, it's safer, right?
(Actually, put two installations on its equator, both near but not within visible range of Earth, and you'd be able to hit it 90+% of the time.)
First, we don't know about most threats until way too late. Second, if it's that far out that we think it MIGHT be a threat, we don't know enough that it may miss us, or that our tampering may make it more of a threat. And, if lasers were that much of a propulsion tool, why aren't we loading up our probes with rocks and zapping them with solar powered lasers to zoom them across the solar system? It's kinda like blowing on your own sail. Also, the jets coming out of heated comets don't effectively change their trajectory so there's no reason to think our pathetic little toys will have any similar affect on a mega-tonage chunk of iron flying at us at several tens of thousands of miles an hour. Finally, there is nothing like exploiting humanity's insatiable consumerism to deal with the issue - mine that rock before it gets to us and we profit from the metals and elliminate the threat - win win. Win.
that fear-mongered things will bleed us dry. Whether it's the war on terrorism, trying to shoot asteroids down, or threat of (space) alien invasion. Not to mention the laws stripping our civil liberties in the event of all of these.
We already have the technology we need, it's just that idiots have to be removed from the decision-making process. (This obviously applies to other areas of human endeavor).
Ezekiel 23:20
dr evil only takes cash or check
in all of history, the number of extinction level asteroid impacts are very few and far between. The number of times mankind has come close to using technology in such a way that it leads to an equivalent event are almost too numerous to count, even though we've not been in possession of such technology for more than 100 years. Long story short, I think asteroids are the least of our worries.
in all of history, the number of extinction level asteroid impacts are very few and far between.
Events far below extinction level are a major threat. Think of how fragile society is. A severe disruption of the power or transportation networks could impact delivery of food to cities. Millions could die from that alone.
Removes unsightly craters! Restores youthful appearance! Look billions of years younger!
I eat only the real part of complex carbohydrates.
What's most interesting about this is that it would provide a very quick response time to target from detection - there's no need to wait for a missle to be cleared for launch or for it to fly to the intercept point, the lasers just focus on where the asteroid will be at the point in time when the laser light will arrive.
But what impact will the laser have on the asteroid?
If it was a comet that was being targeted then there's every chance that the laser could be used to blow up the comet (they're mostly ice and the laser would melt through the ice very quickly.)
But for asteroids that are made of silicates and metals, will the asteroid melt, be cut or just anneal?
If a patent stopped or delayed an Earth saving project then Darwin would agree we deserve extinction.
Is that the craft needs to be close to (or in orbit around) the asteroid.
Lasers in space are not like lasers in the atmosphere. They're not going to degrade substantially over distance as there is no dispersion. So you could put the laser things in orbit around the earth, or just somewhere that they won't have anything of consequence between them and their target and the laser will have closer to the same power from 100m as it would from 100,000,000km.
Unless I'm missing something?
Everything in space is difficult to deal with. (see also: deepest ocean trench and Antarctica)
The best place is right at a power source. Put a laser next to every power plant in the world. Fire a whole continent worth of lasers all at once.
Sure, you get some loss from the air. You make up for it with power availability, installation cost, and maintenance cost. The advantages are even bigger when vaporizing low orbit space junk.
Dr. Evil. Please help us by destroying Washington D.C. and we'll reward you with 100 Billion Dollars along with the Keys to the Playboy Mansion for cleaning up American Politics.
Mod me up/Mod me down: I wont frown as I've no crown
But just because the laser emitters are in one location doesn't mean the solar panels or other power sources need to be located right next to them.
Since when is the act of publishing akin to making an idea unpatentable? The authors of that paper retain ownership, and several major universities engineering graduate programs are powered by the marketability of their research.
Under this years new "first to file" patent reform, prior publication, scientific or otherwise is not enough to void a patent, since the standard is explicitly NO LONGER "first to invent", no such claim need be made.
One hopes the courts act sensibly and close this loophole, but given the history of the matter (owners of IP-abusing patents settle or fold if they suspect a case will be ruled against hem, rather than risk a sensible precedent that would weaken their other IP holdings -- or deep-pockets third parties offer them cash behind th scenes to fold) I suspect that the first few lower court precedents to go all the way to a published decision will almost necessarily be silly ones (earnest plaintiffs can't afford to drop their cases even if they might lose) that will have to be reversed (perhaps in an unrelated future case) by higher courts or even the USSC.
The above applies only to the US, of course, but MOST matters of law are jurisdiction dependent
LASER cannons?
What's that, some kind of clever acronym?
deflect a harmless asteroid into a collision course with earth.
... At last! A solution for those terrible Russian winters!
It's a slightly different analysis of an idea that's been proposed before. The genera idea is to divert annoying asteroids slightly by firing lasers at them from reasonably close range to boil off some surface. This is a long, slow process, taking years. It has to be done from a great enough distance that the stuff being boiled off doesn't mess up the optics, but not so far off that enough energy can't be delivered to a narrow spot to boil rock. The paper is just an analysis of the size and number of spacecraft required, assuming a solar power system driving a solid state laser. (Why not just focus the sun? The mirror has to be too close to the asteroid to get a tight enough beam, and then it gets hit by the rock being boiled off.)
As a weapon system, it's not very useful. It's too expensive and vulnerable for an anti-satellite weapon. The beam might be able to deliver enough energy through the atmosphere to set fires, but the spacecraft would have to be put in low earth orbit to do it.
...
First to file is still invalidated by prior art. Publishing the invention makes it unpatentable (in theory, things with plenty of prior art still get approved.)
First to file system, pretending the patent office actually did good prior art searches:
If two people independently invent the same thing, and both keep it secret for a while, whichever one files for a patent first gets the patent.
If two people independently invent the same thing, and one publishes it publicly, neither one gets the patent.
First to file system, in reality:
If two people independently invent the same thing, and both keep it secret for a while, whichever one files for a patent first gets the patent.
If two people independently invent the same thing, and one publishes it publicly, the other files files and first gets the patent. Then after years of court battles the patent gets invalidated due to prior art.
First to invent system, pretending the patent office actually did good prior art searches:
If two people independently invent the same thing, and both keep it secret for a while, after years of court battles whoever can show they invented it first gets the patent.
If two people independently invent the same thing, and one publishes it publicly, neither one gets the patent.
First to invent system, in reality:
If two people independently invent the same thing, and both keep it secret for a while, after years of court battles whoever can show they invented it first gets the patent.
If two people independently invent the same thing, and one publishes it publicly, the other files files and first gets the patent. Then after years of court battles the patent gets transferred to the other who invented it first. Then after more years of court battles it gets invalidated due to prior art.
Not a sentence!
We get the space privateers out there like Elon Musk and friends to mine some asteroids, and ask them nicely to send some useless iron ones back to the moon. Fuck mining them, send some to the moon, like, yesterday.
The moon will soon have a small ring of asteroids ready to be dislodged from their Lunar orbit like a loaded twirling sling. We can use that mass to tug an asteroid, or smash it and it's fragments until they're no longer dangerous. TADA, we're a lot more prepared for unforseen shit. We might not be able to stop a planetoid that could be careening our way, but we'd at least be somewhat armed... You think we'd have already seen all the things nearly the size of a planet zipping around the what 50, 100, 1000 years ago? Nope.
Eris, is the most massive known dwarf planet in the Solar System and the ninth most massive body known to orbit the Sun directly. It is estimated to be approximately 2300–2400 km in diameter, and 27% more massive than Pluto, or about 0.27% of the Earth's mass. Eris was discovered in January 2005 by a Palomar Observatory-based team led by Mike Brown, and its identity was verified later that year. In 2005, we discovered for the first time something five times the size of pluto was orbiting between Mars and Jupiter.
We're nearly fucking blind man! If priority #1 isn't solving the "all your eggs are in one basket" problem by colonising other planets or moons around other planets, then we're all doomed. The lasers and lunar asteroid slingshot MIGHT buy us a little time... Think about that next time NASA budgets are cut while we spend trillions in wars against brown people over oil. What the fuck will having the oil do when you're roasted alive by a gama-ray burst, or planet killing asteroid?
"How threatened would you feel from the possibility of this proposed array being hijacked by extremely depraved individuals, ones capable or guilty of great crimes?"
Like the USA?
Wait, this isn't DeathStarNet....
If you have the technolgy to cause an asteroid to avoid earth, couldnt you use that same technology to make an asteroid to hit earth? You would just need to find an asteroid that was on a near miss course and give it a nudge. Maybe this technology should be banned for the same reason they wanted to ban the recent paper on flu research.
I, for one, think of this as a way to allow governments to militarize space under the guise of protecting the Earth. If these lasers can affect an asteroid's path, they can do a lot of damage to anything on the Earth's surface too.
A laser expands to the size of a football field over the distance from Earth to the Moon. There is no way a laser (or any other beam-type weapon) could deliver an effective areal power density at the distances required (for large objects) to make any difference.
The only practical way to transfer energy at that scale is putting rocks of our own into orbit around the moon and mount thrusters on them. They wouldn't even need to be very big (i.e., safe for us) so long as you had enough of them.
"In 2005, we discovered for the first time something five times the size of pluto orbiting between Mars and Jupiter"
That statement is so obviously wrong that it made me want to dismiss the entire post because, well honestly, if somebody's gonna make such a stupid statement it's like when a person makes a lot of grammatical and spelling errors. You know they COULD be an informed, intelligent person but your inner bias says no.
Look, if astronomers discovered something in 2005 that was five times the "size" (Mass? Volume? Diameter?) of Pluto between Mars and Jupiter the entire astronomical community should be ashamed of itself for not spotting it CENTURIES earlier (it should be naked to the visible eye unless painted flat black, with a new coat of paint every week). Shit, the gravitational perturbations alone should have made it discoverable long ago, that's how Neptune and (I think) Pluto were found, much much farther away.
Now that I've got that off my chest, there are some problems with your idea. Why put these chunks of rock (iron?) in lunar orbit? Because of the three-body problem which even Newton (and everyone since) couldn't solve, these orbits may not be stable and may indeed be chaotic (hence the "interplanetary highway"). So after a (very long) period of time, when humanity (if it's still around) may not have a space program, these big (and they've got to be big in order to do serious damage to an asteroid that's already in cislunar space) may come crashing down onto earth. Why not put them in a stable trojan point either earth-moon L4 or L5 or sun-earth L4 or L5? Or, considering all the effort you're putting into doing this, why not just track all the earth orbit crossing asteroids a century or two out and (gently) tweak their orbits. Orbital mechanics IS a science and as long as you're not trying to project very far into the future, we could easily predict what's gonna hit us with much less effort than putting kilotons of rocks in motion.
Now get off my lawn.
Uh.....I think we've already been down this road before, haven't we? I'm having a flashback here. I think it was a scene in that 1998 movie "Armageddon" with Bruce Willis. They trashed the solar-laser solution and went with the nukes.
I think we'd do much better to build a huge laser complex on the Lunar far-side, these could be used to deflect incoming debris w/o risk of being used on planetary surface targets here...and could be used to look for outer-solar-system objects.
All that is required to deflect an object is to provide enough energy to cause a mild-course change, assuming you locate it soon enough.
Perhaps, smaller, less powerful array could be used to de orbit trash...?
Put it at the Lagrange point at the far side of the moon or on the far side of the moon, use other satellites to communicate with it, and include a self-destruct and have some missles ready in case some psycho government manages to hack it.
Once again, Star Trek has predicted the future in amazing detail.
Mr. Bond, they have a saying in Chicago: Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time is enemy action.