Slashdot Mirror


The Decline of Google's (and Everybody's) Ad Business

Hugh Pickens writes "Rebecca Greenfield writes that during their recent earnings call, Google reported a 16 percent decline in Cost-per-Click (CPC), meaning the value of each advertisement clicked has gone down. This follows a 12 percent drop last quarter and 8 percent the quarter before that showing an unfortunate reality of online advertising — unlike the print world, internet ads lose value over time. The daily and stubborn reality for everybody building businesses on the strength of Web advertising is that the value of digital ads decreases every quarter, a consequence of their simultaneous ineffectiveness and efficiency, writes Michael Wolff. 'The nature of people's behavior on the Web and of how they interact with advertising, as well as the character of those ads themselves and their inability to command attention, has meant a marked decline in advertising's impact.' This isn't just Google's problem. Overall, Internet advertising has decreased in value over the years as online advertising continues its race to the bottom. 'I don't know anyone in the ad-supported Web business who isn't engaged in a relentless, demoralizing, no-exit operation to realign costs with falling per-user revenues,' adds Wolff, 'or who isn't manically inflating traffic to compensate for ever-lower per-user value.' For Google's overall business, this loss doesn't mean as much, since it has since expanded its business beyond AdWords — including its recent acquisition of Motorola. For companies that didn't just buy big hardware companies however, it's a scarier proposition. Like Facebook, for example."

313 comments

  1. Thank god by ravenswood1000 · · Score: 2

    The ads were getting a bit overwhelming. Maybe this will mean less of them.

    1. Re:Thank god by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No. According to the summary (and common sense), you'd see that their response is going to be more ads, to compensate for their less effective nature.

    2. Re:Thank god by rtaylor · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Quite the opposite.

      If each ad display has less value, maintaining revenue means being more agressive with advertisments.

      --
      Rod Taylor
    3. Re:Thank god by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      The summary is talking about cost per click. Putting up more ads is unlikely to encourage more people to click on them, since very few people ever click on any ad.

    4. Re:Thank god by jellomizer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The problem is the quality of the adds.

      Internet adds will be far more useful if we could somehow trust the content in them. If Companies like Google, did the extra work to verify the authenticity of the companies and was willing to put its own brand reputation behind the quality of the people placing the adds, I think the value of the adds will go right up. Because right now there isn't any good way to tell the difference from a stable start-up/small company with a snake oil sales man.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    5. Re:Thank god by Skal+Tura · · Score: 1

      they are doing that. Quite stupidly tho. They are banning advertisements with common terms, such as BitTorrent which albeit being a trademark is also name of a common protocol. That's the term i best remember, but there was others, that's when i stopped AdWords completely.
      In any case, adwords was worthless and over priced for us, didn't lead to enough sales to justify the cost (something like 100€+ per sale cost), one of the least effective advertising we have done. The very same ads, well same content, did elsewhere at best ~4.8€ cost per sale!
      We tried probably 150 different ads.

      Especially bad was advertising on other sites/"content partners" or whatever it was called, we spent a lot of money on that for exactly 0 sales.
      Ads on google search atleast yielded some sales.

      Also the management interface was a bit worse nowadays, some things wasn't as easy to do anymore. It used to be a lot simpler and easier.
      Same problem has happened with google analytics, the new interface overcomplicates things (we have dozens of sites being monitored).

    6. Re:Thank god by Cute+Fuzzy+Bunny · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Yes, we're going to do the same thing, only moreso"

      "Insanity is defined as doing the same thing and expecting a different result"

      "We lose money on every sale, but we make it up on volume"

      Any others?

      So far, for all of my life, at least as well as I can remember...I've never been made aware of a product due to an ad, never decided to buy something due to an ad, and never decided to buy or get behind some other product/service/person as a result of an ad. Of course, this may be because I used to make ads and I know that most of them are full of semi truths and information not meant to be combined cobbled together with the intent of making me think something other than what I currently think, to someone elses benefit.

      Meh, no thanks.

    7. Re:Thank god by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are websites out there that you can go to and find out the information you are asking for, but there is no good way for an ad company to do what you are suggesting without going bankrupt.

    8. Re:Thank god by geoffrobinson · · Score: 2

      And then the Doritos Locos Taco was introduced...and it was if the world had changed.

      --
      Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
    9. Re:Thank god by Dog-Cow · · Score: 3, Funny

      The quality of the subtracts aren't all that great either.

    10. Re:Thank god by justforgetme · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Only if you are a logical person. The teams of accountants running big Internet outfits that are dependent on advert revenue just see this as a que to "Hey! There's a spot we haven't put an ad on!".

      Honestly though, from personal experience, redefining your ad strategy to something much more minimal, elegant and integrated seems to be working atm. The Plain advertisement times on the net are over. Now it seems to be all about social recommendation. (Which is nicer IMHO)

      --
      -- no sig today
    11. Re:Thank god by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      There are ads on the internet?

      I've been using adblock and it's variants for years.

    12. Re:Thank god by neonKow · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You give yourself and human brains too much credit. It doesn't take that much to get into our subconscious, and into our decision making process.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyQjr1YL0zg

      Obviously, this Derren Brown video is a little dramatic and not very scientific, but the fact remains that we humans draw a lot of our "spontaneous" creativity and "rational" decisions from our surroundings. You may think that you're immune to the effect, but regardless of the amount of truth in an ad for ACME brand frozen lasagna, the fact that Morgan Freeman is telling you that it is delicious and nutritious will have an effect on your decision 3 months from now when you're deciding which brand you trust more.

      And imagine how susceptible kids are.

    13. Re:Thank god by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then, you're the one that is, first, making it worse, then taking it all away from the rest of us.

    14. Re:Thank god by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 1

      Internet adds will be far more useful if we could somehow trust the content in them.

      Internet ads would be more useful if they were like newspaper ads -- a short message, maybe a picture, without any animation, without trying to block anyone's view of what they are reading, without tracking your browsing history. The revenue model should be the same as well: pay per view, not per click, because a view of an advertisement is what advertising is about (why should the advertisers get that for free?).

      We could even make ads that are targeted to a person's locale, and we could do so in a privacy-respecting manner -- there is both the trivial way (send the browser all local ads plus a default, and have the appropriate one selected offline) and the asymptotically better approach using crypto (i.e. private information retrieval). The only problem, of course, is the amount of money that has been invested in finding more effective ways to invade everyone's privacy, and the fact that the big Internet advertisers do not really care about whether or not they are annoying (which is why ABP should be promoted and installed by default).

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    15. Re:Thank god by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      In any case, adwords was worthless and over priced for us, didn't lead to enough sales to justify the cost
      I think that is the general case. Advertising never generates enough sales to justify the cost. The only people who make money off of advertising is advertising companies.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    16. Re:Thank god by bobbutts · · Score: 1

      I categorically refuse to view ads that can easily be blocked and have no remorse for using ABP, vpn, etc.

    17. Re:Thank god by Cute+Fuzzy+Bunny · · Score: 1

      Eh, I'm aware of peripheral influence, but when I buy 99% of my stuff from going to amazon, clicking on the category, clicking on 5 star reviewed only, then choosing the cheapest one unless one is 'used like new' from the Warehouse, and then buying it...I'm not sure where I've become susceptible to an ad.

      When I buy a car its whatever is the size I need at the lowest price. I buy the cheapest cell phone plan I can find.

      For almost everything else I buy, its the one that Costco sells and since they tend to not sell 5 different kinds of anything...again not much room for influence.

    18. Re:Thank god by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 2

      I've never been made aware of a product due to an ad, never decided to buy something due to an ad, and never decided to buy or get behind some other product/service/person as a result of an ad.

      Then you have never been forced to spend your money economically. Quite a bit of furniture in my home was purchased on Craigslist (I am a grad student -- money is not easy to come by), and when my family came over at the beginning of the summer and I needed a grill, I looked at advertisements to find a grill that I could afford. Advertising can be constructive and useful -- when it is not so annoying that you have no choice but to automatically block it.

      The problem with advertisers is their greed. What I said in the above paragraph is true for adults, because once you are out living on your own, there are things that you need to buy -- food, clothing, tools, insurance, etc. Advertisers are not content with that, despite the fact that they have a market that will never go away or become obsolete (regardless of new technology, adults will always need goods and services). Thus they started to target children, trying to get the kids to nag their parents for unnecessary things. Despite their success at corrupting children, advertisers were still not satisfied, and in the 1980s they started to perfect ways to trick teenagers into thinking that they were not choosing the music that advertisers were try to sell them (MTV).

      Yet despite having successfully corrupted children, despite having successfully corrupted teenage rebelliousness, advertisers were still not satisfied, and we all know what they corrupted next. When they saw the Internet, advertisers saw a chance to corrupt another wonderful thing (I guess some might say that teenage rebellion is not "wonderful"). Websites are viewed by advertisers as a way to get even more money. After all, now they can take over your computer and prevent you from doing what you wanted to do until you looked at, clicked on, or interacted with their advertisements -- what a great system!

      Thus we install ABP, and when we need to buy things, we manually search for advertisements.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    19. Re:Thank god by Cute+Fuzzy+Bunny · · Score: 2

      Hey theres a product where the ad definitely influenced my 7 year old. He wanted one right away. Which was a great learning experience, because as it turns out the doritos taco shells suck. They crack very easily. So my little man learned that ads lie and something that looks great on tv in an ad might just stink.

      Good stuff.

    20. Re:Thank god by leamanc · · Score: 1

      I refuse also, but on the grounds that the web advertisers made their products flat-out OBNOXIOUS. If I hadn't been attacked by gyrating, flashing banners proclaiming that I "won" or to "shoot" them, then maybe I wouldn't have minded. Or maybe it wouldn't have been so bad if they'd kept ads out of links on random words in the article text. Or how about the random ads that hijack your slideshow galleries?

      I know people have to make money on this web stuff one way or another, but annoying the living fuck out of people should not be the way. Therefore, I do not feel bad for using ABP either.

      --
      :q!
    21. Re:Thank god by gmanterry · · Score: 1

      You don't suppose that perhaps the decline has something to do with the decline in the economy? You don't have to be a Rocket Scientist or an IT Engineer to realize that if you have less money in your pocket and the future looks gray then perhaps you aren't going to do impulse buying like you did five years ago.

      --
      Since when is "public safety" the root password to the Constitution?
    22. Re:Thank god by Cramer · · Score: 1

      Actually, many ad systems already do that. The word you're looking for is "impressions". Usually, it's pennies per thousand. The real problem with internet ads is nobody pays them any attention; we've become blind/oblivious to them. We don't pay much attention to ads in print media either, but it's harder for advertisers to measure that. How much attention do you give interstate billboards? Why? If you're like me, they are either completely ignored, or read only because I'm bored. Flashy billboards only work a few times before they're no longer "flashy" -- in internet terms, that's the source of the escalation to flash ads that scream at you.

      I'm not aware of our current ad rates since firing the network that was ~60% of our revenue. (I wasn't the one who had to chase them down every month to get our check, so I'm not entitled to complain. :-))

    23. Re:Thank god by jpapon · · Score: 2

      Perhaps you're not directly susceptible, but someone had to choose which product to buy in the first place (so that there are reviews for you to base your decision on). Those people, the initial buyers, were influenced by advertising; there won't be many reviews for a product which wasn't advertised somewhere. Not only that, but you'll probably trust the reviews more if there are many of them, rather than just a few. A product will be more likely to have many reviews if it has more extensive advertising.

      --
      -- Let us endeavor so to live that when we pass even the undertaker shall be sorry. -- M. Twain
    24. Re:Thank god by mevets · · Score: 1

      Faint sound heard over head, a bit like fast moving object shooting through the air. Probably nothing.

    25. Re:Thank god by rrohbeck · · Score: 1

      Just my thought. Now if we got multiplies or divides, we might click on them. But the true revolution in online marketing will be clickable logs, exponentials and radicals.

    26. Re:Thank god by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      The real problem with internet ads is nobody pays them any attention; we've become blind/oblivious to them.

      And the cause of that problem is, again, the low quality of the ads.

      Out of Google, have you ever seen any ad that helps you choosing a product/service? People see ads as something to impress customers, and to convince them they need you... Nearly nobody sees an ad as a presentation, and shows any resemblance of respect for their customers. If you keep not respecting people, you shouldn't be surprized that they avoid you.

    27. Re:Thank god by garett_spencley · · Score: 2

      Derren Brown is a magician. He has used an interest in psychology as a means of misdirection, to get otherwise sceptical people to, even just temporarily, buy in to the possibility that he's not using tricks. Not in an attempt to make people think that he's "really magic" or even to sell psychology as something that it's not, but as a new way to say "LOOK OVER THERE!" so that they're looking in the opposite direction of what's really going on.

      I'm a hobbyist magician and Derren Brown became my hero when I was starting out a couple of years ago. I've read everything that he offered either to the lay public and for magicians. I've studied his work. I can't claim to know how he does everything, but I can reproduce a great deal of what he does and what I can say with absolute certainty is that no performing artist, no magician, leaves anything to chance (whereas psychology always introduces the human variable). When you deal with psychology you might get an 80% success rate when applying a given principle, but it only takes one single person acting a little bit different to ruin your performance and make you look like an idiot. Don't get me wrong, all magicians use psychology to certain degrees. As Teller once said "A magic trick is a psychology experiment", but they use it as sugar to make something that's already bulletproof seem even more spectacular. I promise you, the only routines of Derren Brown's that are purely demonstrations of psychology are when he reproduces classic experiments (such as the famous Milgram experiment that he did on "The Heist"). Whenever you see a feat of "mind reading" or a drawing duplication etc. it's always a trick.

      The fact that Brown has been so successful at getting smart, sceptical people who are totally put off by the David Copperfields and David Blaines who built their routines around traditional ideas of mysticism and "magic" to suspend their disbelief and think that what he's doing is actually anything more than traditional tricks dressed in new clothing has even gotten Penn and Teller to start discussing that new method of misdirection in their shows. BTW, Teller is often credited by Brown as one of his heroes and mentors, the two of them often refer to their friendship in interviews. And Brown once mentioned an ongoing debate the two of them have been having over the years regarding the ethics of what Brown does.

    28. Re:Thank god by Crypto+Gnome · · Score: 1

      I for one have been completely underwhelmed by all this excessive advertising.

      Firstly literally (not impressed in the slightest), and secondly literally (having installed an exception ad-blocker).

      Seriously folks, seeing *ads* on the internet is the equivalent of Browsing Without Protection.

      You DO use Protection, Don't You?

      --
      Visit CryptoGnome in his home.
    29. Re:Thank god by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Advertising needs to be burned... And the media needs to be torn from the hands of private and corporate interests... And corporations also need to be thrown out of politics, ...and the justice system.

    30. Re:Thank god by Cramer · · Score: 1

      The quality of the ad has little to do with it. You won't pay attention to the same ad over and over. Even the Mayhem and Most Interest Man In The World ads get skipped after I've seen them a few times.

      Random google ads across various internet sites... very very few. Unfortunately I tend to not notice any ads until I've clicked a link -- thus during the dead period waiting for a new page to load -- at which point it's too late. (back will load a new ad) Google ads on search pages, however, are a different story; those tend to be very helpful.

    31. Re:Thank god by bingoUV · · Score: 1

      In addition to points raised by jpapon,

      How do you know what size car you need? Are you sure you are not influenced by celebrities driving particular sized cars? Advertisements / movie (or other videos you watch) placements of that size of cars ? Acquaintances talking about / using that size of cars, in turn influenced by advertisements?

      Costco has directly influenced your decision by your own admission. And why costco, and why amazon? Is this not in some way influenced by advertisements? Ads directly working on you, or working on others and others "working" on you.

      --
      Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
    32. Re:Thank god by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So naive...
      When you grow up, you learn that money makes the world go round. That is human nature and it will never change.
      Deal with it.

    33. Re:Thank god by KingBenny · · Score: 1

      mh, targeted ads have a long way to go, everytime i get a l'oreal shampoo ad shoved down my throat or up my aagh when i try to watch some rowdy death metal video i get the feeling someone's not paying attention somewhere

      --
      Free speech was meant to be free for all... how can anyone grow up in a nanny state ?
    34. Re:Thank god by Cute+Fuzzy+Bunny · · Score: 1

      Or they simply looked at the products available, the features and prices, and bought without ever seeing an ad. Of course, I have a DVR and don't read paper publications, so there isn't a lot of opportunity to influence me with an ad.

      Basically I totally disagree with a significant causation for advertising and purchasing. Now if you want to talk about branding, there's a great place to spend your money.

    35. Re:Thank god by Cute+Fuzzy+Bunny · · Score: 1

      How do you know what size car you need?

      The one all of my family members and their stuff fits in.

      Are you sure you are not influenced by celebrities driving particular sized cars?

      No. Why should I be, unless they have the same needs I do? And I think that your typical actor or sports star probably has a different budget and demands than I do.

      Costco has directly influenced your decision by your own admission. And why costco, and why amazon? Is this not in some way influenced by advertisements? Ads directly working on you, or working on others and others "working" on you.

      Both of them because they've provided me with exemplary customer service, product selection, great return policies and no hassles as a customer. Another place besides good branding that companies don't spend their money on.

      I do find some ads marginally helpful. For example, my 7 year old likes the directv commercials such as the one where the guy gets mad at his tv provider, gets an eyepatch and ends up in a roadside ditch. Its a great succinct explanation for how bad decisions can quickly lead to poor results. So when my son is about to get himself into some trouble over a bad decision I just tell him "Don't end up in a roadside ditch now...". Pretty effective.

    36. Re:Thank god by Cute+Fuzzy+Bunny · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure craigslist ads quite conform to the type of advertising we're discussing here, nor are you correct about being smart about spending my money. I've actually been turned down for credit card signups with bonus offers because "We determined that we would lose money on you as a customer".

      The child corruption is fun for me. When a company poisons my kid to want something that isn't very good, I only purchase items and services from that company when I can get them for free or nearly free as a loss leader. For example, for making my kid want happy meals just to get the stupid prize, we buy almost everything from mcdonalds dollar menu without the high profit sides and drinks, often with a coupon or a freebie.

    37. Re:Thank god by bingoUV · · Score: 1

      The one all of my family members and their stuff fits in.

      They would fit in any larger car too. And more comfortably. And more friends and extended family would fit. Where you draw the line could well be affected by ads without your knowledge.

      No. Why should I be, unless they have the same needs I do

      Your language suggests you think one gets influenced deliberately. That could be the reason for your misconceptions.

      --
      Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
    38. Re:Thank god by Cute+Fuzzy+Bunny · · Score: 1

      They would fit in any larger car too. And more comfortably. And more friends and extended family would fit. Where you draw the line could well be affected by ads without your knowledge.

      While thats an accurate statement, it has no bearing on advertising. And I'm quite sure I'm not going to buy something I don't need due to an ad I never saw.

      Your language suggests you think one gets influenced deliberately. That could be the reason for your misconceptions.

      I'm afraid this is getting a little tedious. As the retired head of strategic marketing for a fortune 50 company, I think I'm well aware of how advertising works, and I'm also quite familiar with how little it affects me, and how little it affects most people. 80% of it sucks and does a poor job at selling and fixing interest or its inapplicable to the audience, another 10% is well done at fixing interest, but the target often can't say what the ad was trying to sell. Some portion of the remaining 10% is well done, well targeted, fixes interest and is applicable to the audience.

    39. Re:Thank god by bingoUV · · Score: 1

      Ah yes, the good old proof by assumed authority. If you are not aware , low uid is the only authority recognized in slashdot. And anyway it doesn't cure the inaccurate language used in your statements. Anyway, enjoy your assumption of invincibility.

      --
      Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
    40. Re:Thank god by Cute+Fuzzy+Bunny · · Score: 1

      Enjoy your unwillingness to accept that others are motivated and inspired by something other than advertising.

      Also, lack of influence invincibility.

      I'm guessing you're 25 years old, fresh out of school, and you work in advertising. I'm so sorry...

    41. Re:Thank god by bingoUV · · Score: 1

      You're guessing wrong. All 3 counts. Epic fail.

      --
      Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
  2. nobody ain't got no money anymore by Thud457 · · Score: 3, Funny

    The 1% don't eat nowhere near as much Doritos as the 99%.
    Yay! They've finally clogged the pump of consumerism!

    --

    the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

    1. Re:nobody ain't got no money anymore by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      It isn't so much 'clogged' as 'sucking air'...

    2. Re:nobody ain't got no money anymore by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd more state, "run it dry". The pump is impeller based -- run it dry and the motor burns out.

    3. Re:nobody ain't got no money anymore by slashmydots · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You're saying they ran out of customers? Ummm I don't think so. Here, let me suggest a market research project for you. Go up to anyone you know and ask them when the last time was that they clicked on a web ad. I've never had anyone say they had ever. I think 90-100% of ad clicks are fake and internet advertising is a scam. Stupid companies that don't track ROIs don't realize that it's a complete waste of money or they assign some made up number like "value gained from visitors that at least came to the website via the ad" without realizing they're clickbots. I think the entirety of the decline is companies realizing they're wasting money and it's not a 1.0+ ROI.

    4. Re:nobody ain't got no money anymore by kaiser423 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I click Google ads on their search engine site all the time. Of course, I'm always searching for technology to meet some new requirements, or fed up with a vendor and looking for a new one and the Google ads are consistently very relevant for that.

      Now, while doing personal searches or ads on a general webpage? Largely useless.

    5. Re:nobody ain't got no money anymore by Bamafan77 · · Score: 1

      " I think 90-100% of ad clicks are fake and internet advertising is a scam. Stupid companies that don't track ROIs don't realize that it's a complete waste of money or they assign some made up number like "value gained from visitors that at least came to the website via the ad" without realizing they're clickbots. "

      I think the 90% - 100% number is exaggerated, but there is tons of fraud out there. This has directly led to some of the recent algo changes which I think also contributes to the CPC drop (remember all those content farms that got killed?). But also as the article mentions, mobile has been killing internet advertising. People always talk about iPhone in terms of hurting guys like Nokia/Microsoft, etc. They don't realize it's also hurts Google's ad business too.

    6. Re:nobody ain't got no money anymore by mechtech256 · · Score: 5, Informative

      As someone who was part of an online business that got 80% of first time sales from google ads, I disagree. You're also sorely mistaken if you think that successful web businesses don't track ROI and which customers are coming from where. It's incredibly easy to do even for a layman, and it's very hard to make money with an ebusiness without doing it. There are so many companies in every product category that staying alive comes down to SEO and ad management.

    7. Re:nobody ain't got no money anymore by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      I clicked on a few ads, back when Google was the Internet startup with the novel ideal of unobtrusive text-based ads that were relevant to the content of the page. I can't remember the last time I even saw a relevant ad though, let alone considered clicking on one.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    8. Re:nobody ain't got no money anymore by ceoyoyo · · Score: 3, Informative

      I've often thought that advertising, all advertising is hugely overvalued, even more so with the Internet bringing us quick and easy information about competing products.

      SOME advertising is certainly valuable, but the returns must diminish quite quickly after you've reached a threshold where people know you exist.

    9. Re:nobody ain't got no money anymore by rgbrenner · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I've never had anyone say they had ever.

      And I once had an argument with an uncle that insisted that there are no ads on Google at all.

      In fact, 45.5% of people cannot identify ads on the google search results page:
      http://venturefizz.com/blog/war-free-clicks-think-nobody-clicks-google-ads-think-again

    10. Re:nobody ain't got no money anymore by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, you never punched the monkey.
      Let me guess: you still know what that refers to.

      Selling is not the only use of advertising. (e.g. branding)

    11. Re:nobody ain't got no money anymore by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Let me guess, you block tracking cookies don't you?

    12. Re:nobody ain't got no money anymore by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      I have in the past clicked on some ads, but 100% of them were either to another ad consolidation site or they were deliberately misleading me into believing that they had the product I was looking for just to get me onto their site. As such, I have never clicked another ad. I have never clicked an ad on my phone at all. I trust ads on my phone even less than ads on the internet.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    13. Re:nobody ain't got no money anymore by Zymophideth · · Score: 1

      Up until recently I would have totally agreed with you but a friend of mine explained to me the targeted advertising she does with facebook and she swears that it brings in revenue for her business.

    14. Re:nobody ain't got no money anymore by Grizzley9 · · Score: 2

      The only time I ever click on a Google ad is by accident when the list of items comes up after my search I click on the first item, but it hasn't quite loaded the entire page yet and I end up clicking on the ads at the top of the page instead. Lousy Google, tricking me into clicking on ads.

    15. Re:nobody ain't got no money anymore by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Once in a great while I see something on Google ads that's actually interesting enough to get me to at least look at it. Not necessarily buy it, but look at it. I think it's happened 3-4 times in 10 years.

    16. Re:nobody ain't got no money anymore by mister_dave · · Score: 1

      I've often thought that advertising, all advertising is hugely overvalued,

      Advertising brings in new customers, the alternative is hiring salespeople to cold-call.

      In 1962, just before the first 'We try harder' ads launched, Avis was an unprofitable company with 11% of the car rental business in the USA. Within a year of launching the campaign Avis was making a profit, and by 1966 Avis had tripled its market share to 35%.

      http://www.grabinerhall.com/press-detail.php?a=17

      http://www.avis.co.uk/blog/we-try-harder-the-legacy-of-robert-townsend/

    17. Re:nobody ain't got no money anymore by Agent0013 · · Score: 1

      Now ask them how many ads they click on in the free apps on their Android phones. Those ads get in the way of the game and get clicked on much more frequently.

      --

      -- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.
    18. Re:nobody ain't got no money anymore by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Go up to anyone you know and ask them when the last time was that they clicked on a web ad. I've never had anyone say they had ever.

      A few days ago probably. AdWords are useful when looking to buy something. Sometimes a display ad catches my eye.

    19. Re:nobody ain't got no money anymore by Heddahenrik · · Score: 1
      Yes, really. Google and other advertising agencies only consider profit for themselves and for the site. Nowhere is the input of what the viewers think of the ad (except if they click on the ad, which means "I like to see this ad" even though it likely doesn't). I'm know that it's hard to get it to work, but if it works, buttons like "This ad is irrelevant" and "I clicked this ad and I totally regret it" are needed. Then people will get ads that they actually are interested in.

      But of course: Too many ads will still make people avoid them.

    20. Re:nobody ain't got no money anymore by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      I've clicked on many of those ads that look like buttons, and also on those moving ads (that get themselves under the cursor) that become common once.

      I've also clicked on a few ads without being decieved. I do that mostly, at Google, but once in a while I click in ads on other pages, when they have something interesting (I've clicked n /. ads a few times already).

      The last time I clicked in one, it was at a Google search for the JQuery API. Google displayed an ad for Groupon (the same of my last several searches), and I tough "They are poisoning those keywords, I'll make they pay!"

    21. Re:nobody ain't got no money anymore by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      You're one of those black and white guys hey? That attitude is exactly what I think is wrong. As I said in my post, SOME advertising is undoubtably useful, but the relationship between amount of advertising and return is almost certainly not linear.

      Your example simply confirms the first part of what I said: SOME advertising is useful. Your post, a single data point, has no bearing on the second part.

    22. Re:nobody ain't got no money anymore by Waccoon · · Score: 1

      I'm part of a social network focused on art that has local ads, where members of the network -- and ONLY members -- are allowed to buy ads for their commission services. No animated banners, no JavaScript, no intrusion. I click on those ads all the time, and have bought quite a bit of stuff. It's the only site on the Internet where I have specifically and intentionally disabled AdBlock. I actually like the ads.

      Shove ads in my face, and I won't click. Show me sponsored links based on my search results, I might click out of curiosity. Show me ads from other members of the same community, and you'll have my attention.

    23. Re:nobody ain't got no money anymore by mister_dave · · Score: 1

      The return depends on your offer, and your performance. Advertising brings the new customers, it doesn't close the sale.

    24. Re:nobody ain't got no money anymore by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Probably true, but entirely irrelevant to what I said. Let me guess... salesman?

    25. Re:nobody ain't got no money anymore by mister_dave · · Score: 1

      Both true and relevent

      Advertising is not optional. Every business requires it. It's cheaper than employing sales reps, or telesales staff, and if you have a good product, like Avis, it pays off. If you do not have a good product then telling people about it is pointless.

      No, I'm not a salesman.

    26. Re:nobody ain't got no money anymore by slashmydots · · Score: 1

      Oh, I remember it. I used to work for one of those companies. It happened right after they bought out all my content for a flat rate though hehehehehe. Oh and an actual story with actual numbers from Slashdot a year or so ago stated 50% of all clicks were fraudulent and it was from a Google report that they themselves released. These days I do think it's increased and I do think it's 90%+

  3. I'll continue to use adblock by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

    And put these companies out of business (starting with Geeknet). Change is always good for an economy. It hurts the individual, but brings new opportunities to the whole.

    So sick of being surrounded by people more fortunate than me. Everyone has some sort of large sum of cash or access to a large sum of cash through family. I have none of that. One fucking guy the other day actually less fortunate than me. Holding a sign at the intersection begging for money. I stopped and ate lunch with him. He had been out of work for several months. He appeared to lack an average level of intelligence, and that is likely the cause of his all his issues.

    1. Re:I'll continue to use adblock by Daddy-Oh · · Score: 1

      What in the world was the point of all that, and what did it have to do with online ads?!

      If you are annoyed at online ads, you are obviously fortunate enough to have internet access. I don't like all the ads in my face either, but there is no free lunch my friend.

      If I only had a penny for every time that someone whined about why they can't get everything for free...

    2. Re:I'll continue to use adblock by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is no free lunch? Did you read the post you were responding to?

  4. BEHOLD! by Moheeheeko · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Adblock: Savior of the Internet.

    1. Re:BEHOLD! by Sarten-X · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Adblock: Tragedy of the Commons.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    2. Re:BEHOLD! by dizzy8578 · · Score: 1

      I unblock a few sites I love but even there I will ignore the ads.
        Even if I receive a targeted ad via email or banner, I will go out of my way to buy it from somewhere else.
      I always mistrusted marketers, but after spending 7 years supporting them as a tech, I now actively hate them all and hope more people figure out ways to make them suffer from their own lies, half-truths and misdirection.

      --
      *"Cogito Ergo Liberalis"*
    3. Re:BEHOLD! by Black+Parrot · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Adblock: Tragedy of the Commons.

      It's amusing to see the commercialized internet compared to "the commons".

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    4. Re:BEHOLD! by datavirtue · · Score: 2

      People get REALLY good at ignoring ads. I can click "Ignore this ad" or "Skip this ad" and never have the slightest clue what it was about. I guarantee that people have trained themselves to tune out FB ads and don't even realize they are there anymore. I make money from ads and have not seen a decline.

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    5. Re:BEHOLD! by SQLGuru · · Score: 2

      Adblock is great until all of the sites you enjoy for free all go under because their ad revenue couldn't sustain the site. I don't use Adblock.....I just don't visit sites who are too aggressive with ads (i.e. pop-ups) or consistently have ads that I disagree with.

    6. Re:BEHOLD! by 0123456 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There were plenty of free sites on the Internet in the 90s when few people ran ads. Many of the were better than modern sites because they didn't have the desperate need to bring in more users to make more money from those ads.

      And that was when a hosting account cost far more for far less than you get for the same price today. Of course every page didn't include a megabyte of Javascript crap to 'Web 2.0'-ise it.

    7. Re:BEHOLD! by cpu6502 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I don't have Adblock on my computer. I have adblock in my head, and mentally don't see them (unless it's some girl with naked breasts). Ads on radio and television are more effective than web, since I can't skip those and am forced to listen.

      I've noticed some websites are adopting the TV/radio model but forcing you to watch a 15 second ad before reaching the actual website. My concern is that websites might start charging money to view them (see Hulu and the shows they hide behind a $7 paywall). I'd rather have free ad-based internet than a pay-to-view internet.

      --
      My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
    8. Re:BEHOLD! by fluffythedestroyer · · Score: 1

      no ads nothing is free ? Change your ways, it's flawed. A company or a website that only relies on ads will fall for sure... every company boss knows that. Ads are there to spread the word or have a specific goal in mind. It's not the major money making machine ...if it is, somethings wrong.

    9. Re:BEHOLD! by daem0n1x · · Score: 4, Funny

      Adblock is great until all of the sites you enjoy for free all go under because their ad revenue couldn't sustain the site. I don't use Adblock.....I just don't visit sites who are too aggressive with ads (i.e. pop-ups) or consistently have ads that I disagree with.

      I fucking hate advertisement, and I don't have money to buy what the advertisements advertise, anyway, so even if I loved it, it wouldn't make any difference. I find advertisement profoundly annoying. So I use Adblock.

      As a devote believer in the free market, I'm only concerned about my own selfish interest of not seeing any ads when I surf the Web. And if everybody is as selfish as me, everything will be fine. Oh, wait...

      So, you're saying a free market is not the ultimate and final solution for something? Oh, why, but why do you hate freedom? Why do you hate America?

    10. Re:BEHOLD! by Sir_Sri · · Score: 1

      The thing with facebook ads is that for a long time, around here at least, all of their ads were super sketchy, so you wouldn't want to click on them anyway. But times change and facebook is a big serious publicly traded company now with boring companies advertising there. I still might not click on a Car ad on facebook (or a Coke ad) because why would you ever need to click on those ads? I'm not going to buy a car because I saw it advertised on facebook. But those ads serve to maintain a brand image and presence, it's much more about making sure people know when they shop your product exists and they can look at it than it is about directly selling you points to use on a shitty facebook game.

      Sure, the points on a shitty facebook game are much easier to track ad clicks to revenue - but that was always doomed to have low value.

    11. Re:BEHOLD! by Sarten-X · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And why is that amusing? A content-filled and freely-accessible Internet is a resource that the whole community benefits from, and yet Adblock drives up the real cost of having that content and accessibility. Sure, there would be some content without ads, but it'd be limited to corporate-sponsored subconscious marketing endeavors, personal philanthropy, and whatever society can produce in its spare time after paying the bills.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    12. Re:BEHOLD! by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      Have to agree with this; I just set up a website for my in-laws business via domain.com (always use coupon code HAK5 - 15% off! Thanks, Darren!), and the total cost for the year is less than $100. Granted, it's fairly basic, but for that price I get unlimited space, bandwidth, subdomains, shit-tons of emails, some handy built-ins like Drupal and PHPbb...

      Maybe it's because I'm fairly new to Web 2.0, but I just don't understand what's so expensive about running a website...

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    13. Re:BEHOLD! by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      So, you're saying a free market is not the ultimate and final solution for something?
      Oh, why, but why do you hate freedom? Why do you hate America?

      Sites that people won't willingly pay for, be it directly or by clicking on ads, will go bust. Since people don't care enough about those sites to pay for them, no-one will really miss them.

    14. Re:BEHOLD! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      OR, like myself, there will be a number of websites that exist because the person making said website *gasp* enjoys making said website.

      I know, what the hell! Someone doing something because they ENJOY it, not because there's a paycheque in it? What's the world coming to?

      That said, there's zero advertisements on my site (a webcomic for what it's worth), because I hate ads and refuse to subject my fans to them. How is this paid for? Outta my own pocket.

      I know, I know... not only is there NOT a paycheque in it for me, I'm actually PAYING to do this. Crazy, backwards world we live in, where people wear hats on their feet and hamburgers eat people.

      So as much as I'm sure you enjoy contemplating the utter destruction of the internet from ad blocking, there ARE still people out there that will have websites.

      And rumour has it that some websites actually SELL things, instead of relying solely on advertisements to exist. Bizarre scenario, that one... I can barely fathom a situation in which that could be possible.

    15. Re:BEHOLD! by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      The Internet, in the form you and I are using, has always been commercialized. I remember when the Internet Yellow Pages really did have most of the best sites on the 'net. Those days are gone and not coming back.

    16. Re:BEHOLD! by sexconker · · Score: 1

      There were plenty of free sites on the Internet in the 90s when few people ran ads. Many of the were better than modern sites because they didn't have the desperate need to bring in more users to make more money from those ads.

      And that was when a hosting account cost far more for far less than you get for the same price today. Of course every page didn't include a megabyte of Javascript crap to 'Web 2.0'-ise it.

      http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/

    17. Re:BEHOLD! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your unlimited space and bandwidth aren't. That just means they assume your actual usage will be so low its not worth metering. Try using 200 GB of traffic one month and see just how "unlimited" it really is. Or uploading 200 GB worth of pictures. Most places 200 GB of band width runs anywhere from $10 to $20. If they expect your monthly bandwidth to be under 1 GB (typical for "home page" type site, business or otherwise), its not worth their time to meter it. Instead, if you do happen to use 200 GB (because you actually have that much content/traffic, or because some hackers are trying to shut you down), they'll kick you out real fast. Its not about Web 2.0, its about web sites that do more than sit and look pretty so a business (or person) can say "we have a web site too a www...! It has our menu and phone number right on it! On the internet!"

    18. Re:BEHOLD! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure, there would be some content without ads, but it'd be limited to corporate-sponsored subconscious marketing endeavors, personal philanthropy, and whatever society can produce in its spare time after paying the bills.

      Maybe less content, but a much better signal to noise ratio. Sounds good to me.

    19. Re:BEHOLD! by The+Archon+V2.0 · · Score: 1

      I've noticed some websites are adopting the TV/radio model but forcing you to watch a 15 second ad before reaching the actual website.

      Which doesn't work either so long as alt-tab exists (for me, anyway). I so rarely have a single window open that when the ad starts up, I mute it and go do something else while I wait for the content. I suppose it would work for the people out there who don't understand multitasking, and there are a lot of them....

    20. Re:BEHOLD! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good for you, ignoring the intrusive (and useless) tracking the comes with ads. If I'm on a fishing website, post and ad for a nice fishing pole. If you need to data mine the crap out of me to figure out what to advertise, you suck at your job.

      If ads weren't so intrusive, screaming and blinking flash, misleading, and in a lot of cases dangerous to click on, I'd be happy to give up adblock and other "workarounds".

    21. Re:BEHOLD! by Damek · · Score: 1

      "A content-filled and freely-accessible Internet is a resource that the whole community benefits from"

      Yes, yes it is. And would still be without adblock. People like to create and share. It need not be monetized.

    22. Re:BEHOLD! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Google personale has previous said that adblock is not a problem since the people the ads are directed to are those that *want* the ads and thus click on them. People who has made a personal choice to not see ads are thus likely to cost more money from bandwidth when downloading the ads, then the revenue from actually clicking on the ads.

    23. Re:BEHOLD! by istartedi · · Score: 1

      Adblock: state of the art weapon system for one side in an arms race.

      The other side fires back with overlay ads similar to what you see on TV. The ads will be more and more tightly integrated, and the protocols will be designed to integrate the ads into the content while still maintaining the features of ads that are served separately.

      Then adblock will have to get more intelligent. There will be more product placement too. Crack open an ice cold Budweiser and enjoy the war.

      --
      For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
    24. Re:BEHOLD! by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Adblock and related software is a natural reaction to the invasive, annoying advertising that became the norm on the web. Nobody wants to have their browsing habits tracked everywhere, nobody wants to have the article they are reading suddenly vanish and get replaced with an advertisement, nobody wants their CPU time wasted on animating an ad. Advertising on the web should have mimicked advertising on paper -- passive, less obnoxious, and easily ignored (at least conciously) -- and the revenue model should have mimicked paper as well. "Get paid for clicks" is the problem here; that's how we got into this horrible situation, and that's why ABP is basically a must for anyone who uses a browser.

      There is no tragedy of the commons here, there are just greedy idiots, shortsited website operators, and an Internet that has turned into an adversarial game.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    25. Re:BEHOLD! by firewrought · · Score: 3, Interesting

      A content-filled and freely-accessible Internet is a resource that the whole community benefits from, and yet Adblock drives up the real cost of having that content and accessibility.

      Just FYI, Adblock is working with advertising companies to permit non-intrusive advertising. They don't allow very many at this point, but the feature is implemented in the current version of the software and enabled by default; they are working to build a process for handling the exceptions list.

      I say all this because the popularity of Adblock was driven not by a blanket hatred of online advertising, but by the aggressiveness with which some players tried to overtap the market for eyeballs. E.g. your fellow advertisers played a role in precipitating this because they used pop-ups, overlays, flashy animations, and other gratuitous elements to outshout you.

      I'm not saying the world is a fair place or that Adblockers such as myself are perfectly in the right. What I am saying is that the web-centric approach is a great equalizer: customers have more choices in how they consume content, and content producers can't impose the same 33% ad content that cable TV does*. (It's also a great equalizer for little guy content-producers, who no longer have to own a media empire to put compelling content out there.)

      (*I made up the 33% number... that's just my estimate based on watching the clock a few times, and it doesn't include ticker ads, corner overlays, or product placements. Would love to see the actual data for cable TV in various markets.)

      --
      -1, Too Many Layers Of Abstraction
    26. Re:BEHOLD! by Moheeheeko · · Score: 1

      Thus improving the Internet.

    27. Re:BEHOLD! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The trouble with this logic is that it implies that if I saw the ads I'd click on them. I wouldn't. Adblock simply does for me what my eyes and fingers do anyway... ignore.

    28. Re:BEHOLD! by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 2

      Adblock is not the cause of the problem, it is the reaction to the problem -- the problem of an adversarial web where advertisements try to take over your browser, where advertisers are hell-bent on tracking your browsing habits, where your browser can freeze, crash, or otherwise be rendered unusable by some poorly coded advertisement, and where trying to read an article become difficult because of an advertisement that covers the text.

      Advertising would have been a fine model for funding websites, if it were based on traditional revenue models (paying for each view of the advertisement, rather than each click) and traditional presentations (based on a person seeing the ad, not based on a person interacting with it). The shortsightedness of website operators who allow invasive and obnoxious ads on their sites combined with the greed of advertisers is what created this situation, and ABP is just the last logical step in the process (i.e. the users for whom the Internet exists fighting back).

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    29. Re:BEHOLD! by Korin43 · · Score: 1

      The vast majority of sites don't offer a paid version. Anything I read that lets me subscribe gets a subscription (Ars Technica, several webcomics that have options for recurring donations, Consumer Reports, a very significant donation to Penny Arcade's ad free Kickstarter). I have no sympathy for people who can't be bothered to offer an ad-free experience, but hopefully more people using Adblock and less people clicking on ads will force content providers to start monetizing things in a way that isn't user-hostile.

    30. Re:BEHOLD! by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 1

      Adblock is great until all of the sites you enjoy for free all go under because their ad revenue couldn't sustain the site.

      How about demanding payment for every time an ad is viewed instead of just for clicks? That would take away much of the incentive to make ads annoying, and then people wouldn't be turning to ABP in such great numbers. We should also be developing systems for respecting privacy while still showed targeted advertisements (PIR comes to mind), systems for proving that ads were viewed without revealing who viewed them, and so forth.

      To put it another way, when I actually need something, I look at advertisements -- static advertisements that are not based on the content of my email. That's what all web advertising should be: unintrusive, respectful, and constructive.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    31. Re:BEHOLD! by petsounds · · Score: 1

      Yeah, sure there were 'free' sites in the 90s -- that's because they were all seeded with VC money during Dotcom 1.0. There's plenty of those now as well, but most of them are social networks whose business model is hoping to get bought out.

      1. Free doesn't mean free, it just means the cost is in another form (usually, your privacy)
      2. VC money is the evil of the industry. Free products are not sustainable. It's akin to the Chinese flooding local markets with cheap goods. Local goods manufacturers cannot compete, and in the same way startups who want to build an ethically-minded product which has a real cost cannot compete.
      3. The battle of the early web was over advertising vs. subscription. People chose 'free' because free. But people weren't happy with even that arrangement. Now they want truly free, in the same way people want free music, free movies. Free content is unsustainable. Greed destroyed the Good Thing we had. Greed from site owners who kept putting more ads on their sites, and greed from users who want something for nothing. The problem is, where do we go from here? Will younger generations who grew up with Facebook consider their privacy free? Is our privacy the only currency left?
      4. Advertising is not necessarily dead. On the web it is becoming so. On mobile devices, most people can't block ads in apps. However we have yet to see mobile ad revenue reflect this captive audience.
      5. The open, free web is dying. Mobile device apps are replacing it with proprietary silos of content. Oh sure, the web will stay around for a quite a while, but it will cease to be the content flagship. In company meetings the phrase "oh, we should probably make a web site for this" will be heard instead of "oh, we should probably make an app for this". Two companies, Apple and Google, will control how content is delivered to you. How advertising is shown, what content is shown. The age of democratic knowledge is drawing to a close, and the age of knowledge autocracies is dawning.

    32. Re:BEHOLD! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Got no problem with ads being there, if they
      - do not try to distract me from reading the content with flashes, animation, etc
      - do not try to track where I am and what I am doing across other sites
      - aren't obtrusive by interfering with the content

      But since those above seem the basic tenets of online advertizing today, I have to say no thanks. I can't read the site with ads on. It might as well die if that is the only way.

    33. Re:BEHOLD! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Boo fucking hoo. The problem with internet ads is they get greedy and don't know when to stop. If they get a marginal 2% increase in clicks by doubling the number of ads on the page, they'll do it. If the more obnoxious ads that flash constantly next to the article cause an increase in clicks, they'll do it. If fake Windows alerts trick users to click them more, they'll use them. They make ridiculous misleading claims "the secret diet to cure your diabetes in 30 days the doctors don't want you to know" - this is picked from a facebook ad by the way. Speaking of facebook, you can see that advertizing-itis has taken over. Most of my friends posts today are pimping their business, other business or other products that they get points by doing so.

      I would have no problem with google-style ads - they are efficient, non-obtrusive and if I didn't know they come from google, the owner of doubleclick and the largest stalker of the internet.

      Internet advertizing is a scourge because it has let itself degrade to that level.

    34. Re:BEHOLD! by Shompol · · Score: 2

      on a fishing website, post and ad for a nice fishing pole.

      How about post impartial specs, tests, images and prices so I can choose the best fishing pole? What an ad does is gives higher visibility to an overpriced middle of the pack, throws off judgement of some buyers and makes them pay a fat premium for a mediocre product, compensating manufacturer the price of advertising, and indirectly supporting the fishing pole website.

      If all advertising dies tomorrow, the world will be a better place.

    35. Re:BEHOLD! by lightknight · · Score: 1

      And it did quite well with just that for many, many years.

      --
      I am John Hurt.
    36. Re:BEHOLD! by columbus · · Score: 1

      Sure, there would be some content without ads, but it'd be limited to corporate-sponsored subconscious marketing endeavors, personal philanthropy, and whatever society can produce in its spare time after paying the bills.

      History disagrees with you. The WWW in 1994, prior to serious commercialization, was not full of corporate-sponsored marketing endeavors. Perhaps you could describe the content of the web circa 1994 as 'whatever society can produce in its spare time after paying the bills', but I don't really think that's what you were getting at.

      --
      friends don't let friends teleport drunk
    37. Re:BEHOLD! by dcollins117 · · Score: 1

      If all advertising dies tomorrow, the world will be a better place.

      Try developing a product and not advertising it. Observe that you have no buyers. Perhaps then you'll discover the need for advertising.

    38. Re:BEHOLD! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and whatever society can produce in its spare time after paying the bills

      Don't underestimate what can be created by motivated individuals during their free nights and weekends.

      To take just one example: Imagine the sheer quantity of the entire collection of the top 0.01%-quality postings on all of the user-generated content sites.

      Yes, I know that top-0.01%-quality content is hard to find, and it isn't well organized or publicized. But finding and organizing it is a solvable problem. And certain motivated individuals will volunteer their time to do just that.

    39. Re:BEHOLD! by Shompol · · Score: 1

      I never denied the need for advertising. It's a used car dealership dilemma: damned if you cheat, damned if you don't when the dealership across the street does.
      The advertising is a waste of resources and has to be banned (or regulated) across entire market segments simultaneously, or else what you say will happen.

    40. Re:BEHOLD! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, adblock is the result of trying to turn the internet into an advertising medium like TV and treating us as if our sole purpose is to buy stuff - even if we can't afford it and have to use credit. It's not about the internet specifically, it's about consumerism in any space - real or virtual.

      Practically speaking, the tragedy of the commons isn't about site content but about user bandwidth, user security, user attention and the grand prize - the user's open wallet. Some advertisers and site abuse it, adblock is the result and all advertisers suffer - the good ones and the bad ones.

      Further, your argument seems to be pro-supply-side-economics. That's not working so well and hasn't for a long time (citation - look at product quality and suppliers in general - we don't get as customers what we actually want). Demand side seems, historically speaking, to work better IMO - find out what people are willing to pay for, build it and sell it to willing customers then support them rather than supply only what is most profitable while buying out competition rather than beat them at the value game.

      Advertisers don't get to cram stuff down my throat because they want to. They don't get to monitor my brain to figure out what I want. They get trial and error and that's it. Yes, it's expensive and it's difficult but that's the advertiser's problem. Making it my problem (bandwidth, security, conscription of my attention) so life can be easier for the advertiser is an externality - a tragedy of the commons. By that I don't mean the site that hosts an ad but the entity placing the ad in the first place.

      However, as far as host sites go, if they policed their space more, space would become more valuable - see the myspace reference above - they cheapened their own ad space to such an extent that all ad space lost value for everyone. Don't do 200 ads at $0.05 ppp, do 5 at 1 ppc - won't make as much but you won't dilute the brand and ultimatly end up long term like..... myspace.

      I just don't understand it. I'm not a marketing expert and am no rocket surgeon but it seems like common sense - I think most of us agree. Sure, advertisers have a right to speak their message but they don't have a right to force me to listen to it. Not listening has consequences - agreed - there may be less content on the internet. However, I'd rather have less content in total if the lost content is the crap - higher signal to noise ratio - exactly what adblock helps to provide. If advertisers and hosts won't give me better signal, I they have no right to complain their methods aren't working.

      What does the internet loose as a result of adblock really? Crap sites that don't actually have decent content, ads that are designed to conscript attention by blinking, etc.,... I'm perfectly ok with an internet that provides what I'm looking for and in return I'll spend my money with those that provide it. It's hardly a bad thing that sites that just repost for high google ranking just to insert themselves into the direct link I want are at risk is it? What value do they ad for you personally? Not a value that you might someday achive but value to personallty in the here and now? Yes, you might not be a millionare now, but someday you might be right? So lets help your possible future self at the expense of your current self... making it harder to become that millionare future self in the process.

      I like the adblock effect even if it's only on my pc. IMO, your argument is like saying people developing immunity to polio through a vaccine is a tragedy of the commons because the vaccine abuses polio's rightful space to use people's body's to spread itself. Those who use adblock have built an 'immunity' of sorts but the 'polio virus' cries foul. Who feels bad for the real polio virus and it's inability to spread itself effectively these days?

      I don't mind ads - as long as they don't cripple my machine, slow load times, mislead me, distract me, force me to click through 10 pages of a news article so 10 s

    41. Re:BEHOLD! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because Adblock negatively impacts CPC rates?
      Or am I missing something, and you're saying that the people who use Adblock really are just so stupid that if an ad is presented to them, they are compelled to click-through and buy the product, making Adblock a real money-saver?

    42. Re:BEHOLD! by Waccoon · · Score: 1

      Adblock drives up the real cost of having that content and accessibility.

      I wont' argue with that, but there's a reason why ads end up on EasyList. It's not to block ads, it's to block the shit that pisses us all off, including mal-ware exploits.

      AdBlock is one of those things that actually makes the Internet more valuable, and if you do your ads right, it's possible that your site won't end up on EasyList in the first place.

    43. Re:BEHOLD! by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

      "And why is that amusing? A content-filled and freely-accessible Internet is a resource that the whole community benefits from, and yet Adblock drives up the real cost of having that content and accessibility."

      You're missing the point, there was a point where ads were tastefully done (google text) but they became obnoxious. Most people didn't mind ads when they were reasonable. But add in flash autplaying videos with obnoxiously loud volume or epileptic seizure inducing flashing "to grab your attention" and you end up with adblock.

  5. Niiiiiiiiice!!! by rodrigoandrade · · Score: 1

    I hate ads!!!!

    At least now the talented engineers at Google et al. will use their bright minds to actually create the next great innovation, instead of creating the next obnoxious ad that circumvents AdBlock, the next stupid ad-ridden Skinner... er, social game, etc.

    1. Re:Niiiiiiiiice!!! by jellomizer · · Score: 2

      And how is Google going to make money to pay for those next great innovations?

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    2. Re:Niiiiiiiiice!!! by daem0n1x · · Score: 1

      And how is Google going to make money to pay for those next great innovations?

      Really not our concern, is it? Don't you believe in free initiative?

    3. Re:Niiiiiiiiice!!! by Megane · · Score: 1

      I hate ads that move, make sounds, escape from their frame, or otherwise go out of their way to make a nuisance of themselves. This usually means Flash. Convienently, AdBlock makes it easier to block flash ads because there's a nice "Block" tab you can click on, instead of having to right-click a menu. I will also do this to those sites that start an auto-play video, which usually has a pre-roll ad for the video that I didn't want to watch anyhow. Those double-underline pop-up ads took more work to get rid of, but I blocked the javascript for the last one of those a long time ago.

      And if I get a malware ad (very rare, but I got one yesterday from a NY Post article!), I will go out of my way to nuke and pave any .js shown in AdBlock that isn't clearly from the main site.

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    4. Re:Niiiiiiiiice!!! by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Google has more than enough capitalization. Now they need to do something useful with it instead of suckling at the same money hose.

    5. Re:Niiiiiiiiice!!! by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      And we wonder why the Occupy movement doesn't get taken seriously. A company doesn't stay in business by cutting their key source of profit, and spend a lot of money giving away freebies.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    6. Re:Niiiiiiiiice!!! by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure exactly what you're saying, but it doesn't seem to have much to do with my post.

      The story is about online advertising revenue potentially declining, which means Google's "key source of profit" might be waning. The thread is about Google doing something innovative to replace that (declining) profit source. I suggested that Google has gotten plenty of capital from their online advertising to go and do something that DOESN'T involve online advertising. I didn't say anything about giving it away - as an investor I would like to see Google diversify from their current position where nearly all their revenue is in one way or another dependent on advertising, to a position where they actually make things people are willing to pay for.

      Or did you just want to get in an off topic dig at the Occupy movement?

    7. Re:Niiiiiiiiice!!! by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      You are making a classic bean counter mistake. You are seeing a negative percentage (in growth), and not looking the big picture. Add revenue is Googles big money making area. The drop in revenue while hurts is still their major money maker. While it is probably wise to diversify your revenue sources, it would probably still be a good idea to work on finding ways to keep you big money maker going strong.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    8. Re:Niiiiiiiiice!!! by rahvin112 · · Score: 1

      Savings. When you have 47 billion in the bank you don't need to really worry about profitability for a while.

    9. Re:Niiiiiiiiice!!! by lightknight · · Score: 1

      Really? That many intelligent and talented people, and the only business method they can come up with is the tired advertising model? I guess this explains why their search engine is borderline useless these days.

      --
      I am John Hurt.
    10. Re:Niiiiiiiiice!!! by lightknight · · Score: 1

      Indeed. Actual site content = 30K, advertisements = 300K. Nothing like bringing an 8-core machine with a SSD and 32 GBs of RAM to its knees because your site just had to launch three versions of the same flash ad at the same time. I'll take the ad-free version of the internet, thank you.

      --
      I am John Hurt.
    11. Re:Niiiiiiiiice!!! by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      You're making the classic know-it-all mistake. Nowhere did I say they should give up advertising. I said it would be nice to see them do something that DOESN'T involve advertising for once.

  6. You mean Facebook might crash, burn, and die? by Chas · · Score: 1

    We could only be so lucky.
    If it could take Twitter with it to the grave, so much the better!

    --


    Chas - The one, the only.
    THANK GOD!!!
    1. Re:You mean Facebook might crash, burn, and die? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You should be so lucky... If Facebook stops having luck with the ad sales, they can just set up a new HQ somewhere in Langley and provide bespoke social-mapping solutions to a shadowy array of government and corporate customers(assuming that they don't already).

    2. Re:You mean Facebook might crash, burn, and die? by fluffythedestroyer · · Score: 1

      does that mean people will talk to each other... hell no. where is the world going now ?

    3. Re:You mean Facebook might crash, burn, and die? by kiwimate · · Score: 3, Insightful

      We could only be so lucky.
      If it could take Twitter with it to the grave, so much the better!

      There's a big difference between ads and Facebook/Twitter.

      Ads are prevalent throughout the web. You are likely to come across them no matter what your browsing habits (unless you use AdBlock).

      Facebook and Twitter require you to visit them and/or sign up. I see no impact to my life from Twitter because I don't use it. I do see an impact from Facebook because I choose to use it and it is a valuable tool for keeping in touch with friends and family all around the world.

      I've never understood why so many people on Slashdot complain about Facebook. Nobody is forced to use it. Plenty of people choose to ignore it and their lives go on. Similarly, plenty of people choose to use it, aware of potential pitfalls, and their lives do not explode in flames.

      If you dislike it for whatever reason, then don't use it. If you don't sign up for a Facebook account, Zuckerberg is not going to send proselytes to your door to pass on the good word. If you do sign up for a Facebook account, don't give them your cell phone number and address.

      Google, on the other hand, collects all manner of data about you from the myriad of services you use, even if you don't sign up for an account.

      I expect several replies about Facebook's abuse of privacy, poor security, etc. Don't sign up.

    4. Re:You mean Facebook might crash, burn, and die? by Nethemas+the+Great · · Score: 2

      You're assuming they do not do this already? We already know that Facebook will pimp their customers to anyone. Since when does "anyone" not include intrusive governments?

      --
      Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once ... with negative results.
    5. Re:You mean Facebook might crash, burn, and die? by petsounds · · Score: 1

      Twitter has been a powerful tool for social change, especially during the 'Arab Spring'. There's a lot of garbage there, but there's a lot of garbage everywhere. But for disseminating news and information quickly and democratically, it's really changed the way people communicate. Twitter and Facebook really shouldn't be spoken in the same breath. They serve different purposes, and while Twitter is an open land, Facebook is a walled prison.

    6. Re:You mean Facebook might crash, burn, and die? by rahvin112 · · Score: 1

      That would be a very bad assumption.

      Facebook has been selling your data to government since day one. You might not be aware of this but all those rules that prevent government from spying on you don't apply if a private business does the spying on their own then sells the government the data. In fact it's even better when you put the information in yourself for them and that they never ever delete anything. Anyone that using Facebook with real information better fully understand what they are doing.

    7. Re:You mean Facebook might crash, burn, and die? by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      No, they're not selling their users data since day 1. In fact, I doubt they ever sold it at all.
      At day 1 they were not relevant.
      And then, after they become relevant, they gave the data for everybody for free, so no governemnt was buying it.
      After that, they started to try not giving their data for everyone, but couldn't really keep it secure, so no government is buying it.

    8. Re:You mean Facebook might crash, burn, and die? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Facebook#Cooperation_with_government_search_requests

    9. Re:You mean Facebook might crash, burn, and die? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've never understood why so many people on Slashdot complain about Facebook. Nobody is forced to use it.

      Because of friends and other groups who insist on putting everything behind facebook.com/somethingtheyposted. Or movie trailers that simply have the facebook icon, then "/movienamehere".

      "Facebook.com" is the new "AOL keyword:". There's an open web, but everyone's running towards one closed vendor, to the ultimate detriment of all.

  7. Good by Hatta · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The internet had plenty of good content before it was ad supported, and it will have plenty of good content afterwards. Come to think of it, the content was actually better before it was add supported.

    --
    Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    1. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Like Slashdot?

    2. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      EXAMPLES please?
      Also what do you suppose the content creators live from?
      Are you going to pay for content instead?

    3. Re:Good by rgbrenner · · Score: 1, Informative

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_banner

      The pioneer of online advertising was Prodigy, a company owned by IBM and Sears at the time. Prodigy used online advertising first to promote Sears products in the 1980s, and then other advertisers, including AOL, one of Prodigy's direct competitors.

      So when you say "the content was actually better before it was add [sic] supported," you're talking about the 1970's?

      Yes.. lots of very interesting content on the internet in the 70's. Much better than today [/sarcasm]

    4. Re:Good by datavirtue · · Score: 1

      Slashdot ad hosting is done right. There are hardly any ads and they are usually relevant.

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    5. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Advertising brought us "web 2.0" and "the cloud," which so very away from the initial dream of open connectivity and open sharing. To put it another way, advertising brought an unmitigated disaster for liberty and privacy. The decline of advertising is a big opportunity!

    6. Re:Good by Hatta · · Score: 2

      I'm afraid I don't have quotes from USENET in 1992 at hand. I propose the content creators make a living doing what they are experts at. People who are good at things like talking about those things. That's better content than almost anything you'll find on the web today.

      Even today, the best content you'll find is buried on niche web fora. That's where you find people who are passionate talking about their passion. Ad supported, but not because the content creators get paid. Ads are just there to pay for the hosting, which we all used to pay for as part of our ISP bill when USENET was around.

      All ad supported content could disappear tomorrow and we'd be none the worse for it. We'd have to find a replacement for ad supported hosting, but it's been done before and we could do it again.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    7. Re:Good by oakgrove · · Score: 1

      Is the "good content" that existed before ads actually gone though? I realize that content evolves over time but I would presume that the ad supported stuff is additive rather than a replacement for what is/was already there. I'm curious though, how would something like Google search be supported if not through ads? Micro-payments? Subscription?

      --
      The soylentnews experiment has been a dismal failure.
    8. Re:Good by 0123456 · · Score: 2

      Even today, the best content you'll find is buried on niche web fora.

      Most of the experts I know have given up on the web and gone back to email lists; a few dozen messages per day with high signal to noise ratio are much easier to handle than a web forum and the use of email and difficulty of finding the lists keeps out the riff-raff.

    9. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I pay $10/month for web hosting. It provides me with enough bandwidth and storage space to serve up far more content than I'm capable of generating (and this is bargain basement hosting). I don't feel the need to monetize it because, frankly, I get far more than $10 worth of enjoyment out of it every month. It's enough to know that I'm contributing something. I'm not saying every site on the internet could replicate this model, but the OP is right. To think that people won't create and share without financial a incentive is what the ad men want you to think. Fortunately, it's just not true.

    10. Re:Good by jason777 · · Score: 1

      It had plenty of good content. But where was it hosted? If it was a university personal page, school, part of your ISP account, etc, then it didnt really cost anything to host. Heck, I used to post all kinds of free content such as how I got my linux box working as a router, step by step help, electronics projects, etc. I enjoyed creating content if others would benefit from it. But back in the day, there were fewer people on the internet. Now, you almost need an ad or two to run the hosting if you have any kind of traffic at all. I mean, how else are we to put servers up? Don't get me wrong though, I'm all for providing free information, but not if I have to pay for bandwidth.

    11. Re:Good by fluffythedestroyer · · Score: 1

      yahoo comes to mind lol. it was great before they changed they're model to a more business like. When they did, they went down, crash and burned. I used Yahoo too and when they got more business like design and model, I used another one which was more appropriate to my taste.

    12. Re:Good by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      My web sites cost a total of $6 a month, if I remember correctly; certainly it's $10 a month. Technically they come with 'unlimited bandwidth', but practically they would slow to a crawl with too many users.

      Back in the early 90s, I was paying $25 a month and the server shared bandwidth over a 56k modem. A couple of years later they upgraded to a direct link comparable to a slow home DSL line today.

      So long as you're not hosting video or other big files or bloating every web page with megabytes of Javascript, hosting costs are much lower today than they were back then.

    13. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's funny how this post reveals the age of the poster. You clearly don't remember Prodigy or the Internet in the 80s or the early 90s. Prodigy was "on-line" but it wasn't the Internet. It was a competitor to AOL, as the quotation states, which also did not have anything to do with the Internet but was similarly "on-line" as in you had to dial-in using your modem and phone line. The term on-line didn't mean the Internet at that time. And while Prodigy and AOL were experimenting with corporate, advertising-driven content back then, the Internet was an academic haven. That's what the previous poster was referring to. In the early to mid 90s when the web came about people had "home pages" and there were various informative and humorous pages and no ads. Corporations didn't even claim their domain names until probably 1995 or 6.

    14. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not sure you actually used the internet before it was ad-supported. It had very, very, very, very, very little useful information on it. Yes, it had a few nerds in a few fields who posted cool nerdy tech info, but the world would be a much worse place if the internet stayed the way it was.

    15. Re:Good by lightknight · · Score: 1

      Indeed.

      --
      I am John Hurt.
    16. Re:Good by Trepidity · · Score: 1

      There used to be all sorts of hobbyist and academic sites with information on niche subjects the creator was interested in. Sites on Joy Division, on ancient Greek playwrights, on the Civil War, on turtles, on cooking, whatever. Now you're more likely to find big low-quality content-farms ranking highly, junk from Yahoo Answers or eHow or whatever.

      On the other hand, Wikipedia has compensated by adding a large new consolidated source of all kinds of information. And that one isn't ad-supported.

    17. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, and yes again.

      my first internet contact was made using ... plain ftp. But what treasure you could find there.
      then there was gopher and news servers - here I was exposed to the add world. Until I have learned how to write my score files.
      Today's AdBlock is the same as spam filters for email or score files for nntp.
      shield against spam sword.
      In my opinion 15s full screen flashing and beeping add is just visual spam.
      And I am paying for that in my internet bill and my wasted time.
      Search adds by google - they are fine. No complaints there.
      But cross site add tracking ? Is like pinning gps locator to your car or ... listening device to your jacket.

    18. Re:Good by Megane · · Score: 1

      The competition was $6-$10 AN HOUR at the time. (Extra charges for 2400 baud service may apply.) Then again, Prodigy was the crappiest of the services (aside from not being text-only), and was originally based on a "we'll push everything out to the city nodes" Videotex-ish model where you only consumed what they fed you. They resisted providing what people really wanted, which was to talk to each other via e-mail and message boards. At one point they limited people to 30 messages a month, and 25 cents per additional message, then later they made it an hourly charge to use them.

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    19. Re:Good by lightknight · · Score: 1

      Indeed. If /. implemented a 'click past this ad to post' style of doing things, the site would die.

      --
      I am John Hurt.
    20. Re:Good by dkf · · Score: 1

      I'm afraid I don't have quotes from USENET in 1992 at hand.

      It's been like September for 20 years, but I'm guessing that over that time the total amount of intelligent posting on the internet (and its predecessors) has been an absolute constant. If only it wasn't spread out over an ever-increasing number of morons and shills, we'd be OK. OTOH, search has got a lot better than it used to be: searching for things in '92 was a PITA. If you actually wanted to find something back then, you wouldn't use the internet, you'd use a reference book. You know, one of those things on paper.

      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
    21. Re:Good by rgbrenner · · Score: 1

      Yes, I know what Prodigy was. You clearly missed the point of my post. Ads have been around since the earliest days the public connected.

      Even if you don't consider Prodigy part of the internet, Yahoo (1994), Hotwired (1994.. had the first banner (an AT&T ad)), Altavista, and others were right around the corner.

      So if you're going to pretend that there was this time when there were no ads and lots of content.. it's worth asking when that was, so we can objectively compare the level of content to today.

      What do you think.. was there more content on the internet in the 70s and 80s than today?

      If you said yes.. then you're full of shit

    22. Re:Good by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      I'm fine with unobtrusive ads. Make them annoying and force-feeding, and then it's war. We need to reward those who don't force things.

      Maybe have a black-list server for sites with too many pop-face and blinkity ads. Put (mellow) ads on the list server to support it :-)

    23. Re:Good by Deagol · · Score: 1

      USENET? Anonymous FTP servers? Gopher/Archie/Veronica? Mail lists?

      My first 3 or 4 years on "the internet" didn't even have graphical browsers, and it had a ton of useful information.

    24. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and they are usually relevant.

      Thanks for the best laugh I've had all day.

      Just one example; seeing an ad for the second or n'th time is the very opposite of relevant.

    25. Re:Good by DennyK · · Score: 1

      There is little or no profit in selling sub-$10 hosting accounts. Your cheap hosting is subsidized by upselling other high-margin services, especially advertising services, to hosting customers, and often by monetizing your site itself. (Have you checked your site's default HTTP error pages lately? Odds are good that they're full of targeted ads based on your domain name.) If those revenue sources become less profitable, your hosting costs will eventually go up (or your hosting company will go out of business).

    26. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think the internet has been ADD supported for some time. Certainly the attention span usually displayed implies this.

  8. It's simple supply and demand by Hentes · · Score: 1

    The money in internet advertising grows slower than the number of internet ads, making them cheaper.

  9. Use larger ads by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 2

    Google's unobtrusive text ads are out. Solution: really big ads that get in your face before you can get to the content. These sorts of ads have become much more popular recently and I can only conclude it's because they work.

    Also growing in popularity is "answer this marketing survey before you get more than one paragraph of the content". It's only one question now, but as it grows in popularity there will be more questions. Ultimately you'll have to fill out an entire multi-page survey before being allowed to access content. This will be linked to your real name and Facebook account, of course.

    --
    Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    1. Re:Use larger ads by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      Google's unobtrusive text ads are out. Solution: really big ads that get in your face before you can get to the content. These sorts of ads have become much more popular recently and I can only conclude it's because they work.

      I would conclude it's because they're desperate. When ads fail, advertisers don't give up and find a real job, they make them bigger and more obnoxious.

      No-one wants to be plagued with ads when they're looking for information. I think I've intentionally clicked on about three ads in the entire time I've been using the Internet.

    2. Re:Use larger ads by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My personal favorite advert style was the "roll over to activate" sidebar.

      No clicking or actual interaction required, if your mouse grazed over the top of the bar (perhaps on route to the scroll bar or back to your primary monitor) it launched whatever screen-raping advert it liked.

      That was several years ago, before I figured out adblock and noscript ... I wonder if those terrible things are still around.

    3. Re:Use larger ads by Shikaku · · Score: 1

      Yes they are.

    4. Re:Use larger ads by daem0n1x · · Score: 1

      Google's unobtrusive text ads are out. Solution: really big ads that get in your face before you can get to the content. These sorts of ads have become much more popular recently and I can only conclude it's because they work.

      Also growing in popularity is "answer this marketing survey before you get more than one paragraph of the content". It's only one question now, but as it grows in popularity there will be more questions. Ultimately you'll have to fill out an entire multi-page survey before being allowed to access content. This will be linked to your real name and Facebook account, of course.

      Yes, because annoying the fuck out of your users can't possibly go wrong...

    5. Re:Use larger ads by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      These sorts of ads have become much more popular recently and I can only conclude it's because they work.

      They sure don't work for me. 99% of the full-screen ads I've seen have been flash ads, and from my perspective, they just look like a click-to-flash unloaded plug-in icon.

      The problem with those sorts of ads is that the only time I ever see them is when I'm going to a random website from a link off of Slashdot or some other news site. I wouldn't even consider visiting any website with such ads on a regular basis. If a site I frequent started showing such ads, I would simply find a different site to visit. And this is why advertising on the Internet can never be effective. When you have a million choices instead of ten or twenty, there is no longer any reason to put up with the ads. Thus, any ad that is intrusive enough to have an effect on the viewer also discourages their use of the site.

      Only a handful of Internet sites—Hulu, YouTube, etc.—are still potential candidates for traditional advertising. Those sites behave like television, in that the user spends most of his or her visit as a passive consumer, watching something over an extended period of time. Most websites, however, are not intended for passive consumption. The user is there to do something, to find something, to read a specific article, to discuss a specific subject, etc. Any advertisement under those circumstances is almost guaranteed to A. garner little or no attention and B. annoy the heck out of the user if it does.

      As a result, what most folks think of as advertising is basically dead. The more modern and educated society becomes, the more companies will have to compete on the quality of their products and services. As this transition happens, there is a growing need for services like Google's product search, only done right—none of this stupid screen scraping crap. We need to have a handful of search systems that allow any company to submit their product prices and descriptions through a well-defined API, so that the prices are all legitimate instead of saying that a $2,000 printer costs $3 because there's a $3 accessory on the same page.

      Once you have something like that, combine it with Amazon-like "people who bought X also bought Y". In other words, show targeted advertisements for things that you think the individual might like based on their buying or searching history. Most importantly, though, don't try to show people ads when they aren't looking to buy something. Doing so really isn't useful except for encouraging consumption of stuff that you have lying around the house. Candy bar ads result in increased sales of candy bars. That's about it.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    6. Re:Use larger ads by Nethemas+the+Great · · Score: 1

      They don't work. They're just a pathetic, desperate attempt to garner "click" revenue. I would assert that most users just "click" on things to try and get rid of them and get to the content they really wanted. For me personally, I am far less likely to frequent any site that uses such ad strategies. I doubt I'm alone. Certainly any value from "clicks" derived from these ad strategies are near zero. Eventually content producers and/or advertisers might realize these things. My pessimism make me shudder to think of what they'll try next when that day comes.

      --
      Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once ... with negative results.
    7. Re:Use larger ads by History's+Coming+To · · Score: 1

      Full screen splash adverts? If there's no "click to skip" then I close the window. I can't recall a single instance of wanting to read something so much that I would sit through an advert. I also keep a mental note of companies who use aggressive advertising and actively avoid them - for some reason most of them seem to be charities like Greenpeace and Amnesty, I've got some sympathy for their causes but their advertising has "increased brand awareness" in a very counter-productive way, I remember and avoid them.

      --
      Please consider this account deleted, I just can't be bothered with the spam anymore.
    8. Re:Use larger ads by Mister_Stoopid · · Score: 1

      If full page ads and surveys become a problem it should be relatively easy to write extensions to bypass them. I hope they like survey results where 99% of respondents pick the first answer to every question.

    9. Re:Use larger ads by lightknight · · Score: 1

      Indeed. The new form of advertisement is just an attempt to convince ad-buyers that they should continue paying a premium. It's how things tend to work -> over time, ads become more and more annoying, while being less and less effective. They focus more on loud noise and in your face techniques, which are about as welcome as Busta Rhymes rapping 3 inches from your eyes while you take a shower in your own house at 3 AM. It's all "look at me, and buy some f*cked up product."

      My actual purchasing technique involves checking the product for known defects. Not something an ad is going to list.

      --
      I am John Hurt.
    10. Re:Use larger ads by lightknight · · Score: 1

      I'm fairly certain that I keep a mental list of companies not to buy from on the basis of their ads interfering with my lifestyle. Strange, now that I think about it, I do typically associate ads with crap brands; the thinking goes that only a company with crap products needs to annoy people into buying their products, other companies do not need to advertise, or advertise in such a fashion, since they are already well-known for having a decent product. Surprisingly effective, I've found, over the past few years.

      I suppose it's like what Alan Shore said in Boston Legal -> "We advertise in the Yellow Pages?" The idea being that a good service or decent product does its own advertising, with the best needing almost none.

      --
      I am John Hurt.
    11. Re:Use larger ads by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      Those are the reason I started to use AdBlock.
      At the time, they often had sound, failed to unnactivate after you passed the mouse over them, or simply filled all the browser's window, so you couldn't take the mouse out of them.

    12. Re:Use larger ads by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      The user is there to do something, to find something, to read a specific article, to discuss a specific subject, etc. Any advertisement under those circumstances is almost guaranteed to A. garner little or no attention and B. annoy the heck out of the user if it does.

      Well, that's a wild overgeneralization. Ok, statisticaly, near all of them would cause one of those problems, but you have just generalized away all the ads that would work.

      What is the user doing on your site? Does he need no other tool for completing the task?

    13. Re:Use larger ads by dgatwood · · Score: 2

      What is the user doing on your site? Does he need no other tool for completing the task?

      If the user does need other tools, odds are good that the buying decision will be guided primarily by experts on the site, not by ads on the site. After all, if the user is serious enough to be reading a site on a particular subject, then the user probably cares about choosing the right products and is unlikely to be swayed significantly by a pretty advertisement that says "Brand X gear is awesome" right above an actual discussion entitled "Brand X gear will leave you permanently disfigured".

      There's the rub; for a site on almost any topic, there are usually discussions about that product within easy reach. So the product is either good enough to succeed on its own merits or it isn't, and in either case, it is the quality of the product and the opinions of the experts on the site that drove your sales; every penny spent running ads on those sites is a penny wasted.

      On the flip side, money spent getting your product into the hands of respected experts is advertising money well spent. Unfortunately, that sort of ad money doesn't help pay the site's bills. To the extent that those sites help your sales, donating money to those sites is money well spent, but odds are you will get minimal benefit from asking them to show your ads in exchange for those donations. :)

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    14. Re:Use larger ads by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      So the product is either good enough to succeed on its own merits or it isn't

      Unfortunately, no product is good enough to succed on its own merits. You must tell people about it, so they can tell their friends, and that is marketing. Yeah, you can get it for free sometimes, but paying will get you from point A to point B much faster.

      About the ad being completely contrary to the expert's opinion, well, that's part of what I called 'low quality' above. Your ads shouldn't lie, if you lie, people won't belive you. Nobody will be convinced by a ad claiming that your product is good, above an article claiming that it isn't. But you can convince people to try (or at least research a bit more) your product if you put an ad telling why it is good above an article claiming that your competitor is great.

  10. I continue to wonder... by Covalent · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...who clicks on ads? The only time I click them is by mistake and then in frustration I close the new window, usually before it loads. My value per click is $0.

    --
    Great warrior...hrmph! Wars not make one great.
    1. Re:I continue to wonder... by datavirtue · · Score: 1

      Some companies are wholly supported by this accidental clicking. They make good bank too, sometimes tens of thousands per month. Its not hard if don't mind being an ad spamming douche that adds no value to the internet.

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    2. Re:I continue to wonder... by datavirtue · · Score: 1

      I like making money from ads but the thought of spamming, and deceiving people turns my stomach.

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    3. Re:I continue to wonder... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The people who click on ads are the same people who are subsidizing your free experience on this website, and on others. Without people clicking on ads, you would be out of a job. Regardless of what you do, revenue generation is tied to sale of a product or service of some kind, and sales are dependent heavily on marketing and advertising. Unless ofcource.. you live in some socialist hellhole.. then god save you my friend..

    4. Re:I continue to wonder... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only because advertisers have convinced the ad sellers that ONLY clicks are valuable. If someone doesn't follow my ad's link I've gotten nothing out of displaying my ad. And Google agrees with them rather than point out there's no way to click on magazine or TV ads, but companies still buy those.

    5. Re:I continue to wonder... by gatfirls · · Score: 1

      Google doesn't display ads like other sites s, yea the click is much more important. I don't see a juicy burger for my local burger store that I may go to lunch at but not click the ad.

    6. Re:I continue to wonder... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The ad for the local burger store probably includes the address, you can probably find your way there without clicking the ad.

      The ad for McDonalds, or GM, or Wal-Mart or Pepsi. You don't need to go to their site for those ads to have value. You KNOW what they sell, but just like the TV ad or the print ad they're there to keep their name in their head.

    7. Re:I continue to wonder... by gbjbaanb · · Score: 1

      I do, occasionally. If I'm on a site that's giving me free stuff that I like, I will click on the odd ad just to say thanks. Depends how intrusive they are (most blocked by adblock anyway) and how much I think the site wants me to click them.

    8. Re:I continue to wonder... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I confess two dirty secrets:
      1) sometimes I click on an ad on a web site in order to support it;
      2) sometimes I click on an ad that has something relevant to me.

      These are both rare events, but they do happen. I usually leave JavaScript turned off with NoScript, but on sites that I frequent and which don't have obnoxious ads (e.g., slashdot is at the "not horrible" and "sometimes relevant" ad level), I turn it on to try to support them. I'll at least look, and very rarely click. And if it is a scummy site with flashing ads and pop-ups, I make it a point of blocking and/or not clicking on whatever it is (no, I don't want to punch the monkey for a free X. I want to punch the face of whoever makes those stupid ads).

    9. Re:I continue to wonder... by lightknight · · Score: 1

      Because there aren't a host of others methods for generating income.

      But then, the vast majority of people who wish to profit off the web are the same people who should never be allowed to. Get rich quick schemes, shady legal practices...

      --
      I am John Hurt.
    10. Re:I continue to wonder... by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      who clicks on ads?

      Come on, what slashdotter can resist the Enterprise Pizza Cutter:

      http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/dea2/

      I was surfing space.com when Bam! There it was. Trek + Pizza; sure geek hit.

      The right ad to the right person does the trick.

    11. Re:I continue to wonder... by Covalent · · Score: 1

      Ironically enough, I HAVE this exact device. It was given to me as a gift, but still.

      --
      Great warrior...hrmph! Wars not make one great.
  11. Good by Ryanrule · · Score: 1

    Fuck them all. Slime of the earth, people that sell and run this stuff.

  12. Capitalism at work? by oakgrove · · Score: 1

    I realize we've all been lulled into believing that inflation is somehow inevitable but in a correctly functioning capitalist society, prices for just about everything should actually go down as production becomes ever more efficient.

    --
    The soylentnews experiment has been a dismal failure.
    1. Re:Capitalism at work? by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      But if prices went down for everything, that means the cost of living would also go down, which means that employees would be willing to work for less, so wages would fall, so the real value of goods remains constant.

      Markets are really very complex things - everything interconnects in intricate and not-always-obvious ways.

    2. Re:Capitalism at work? by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1

      I realize we've all been lulled into believing that inflation is somehow inevitable but in a correctly functioning capitalist society, prices for just about everything should actually go down as production becomes ever more efficient.

      Internet ads: infinite supply, zero demand. Small wonder they aren't paying off.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    3. Re:Capitalism at work? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Deflationary currency encourages hoarding (that dollar will be worth more purchasing power if you spend it tomorrow than it is today), which discourages innovation. This will tend to result in a stagnant economy as there is no incentive to take a risk developing say: a more efficient manufacturing process.

      Slow inflation, means that the excessively wealthy become less wealthy is they leave their money under a mattress. This encourages them to instead invest the money is something that will create value, thus growing the economy.

      Rapid inflation, is unsustainable, because you can't save for the future (your money will devalue too quickly). This will result in the currency collapsing if not controlled.

      Like most complex systems it's a balance.

    4. Re:Capitalism at work? by datavirtue · · Score: 1

      Prices can decline in the face of inflation. Inflation doesn't mean you are really paying more. You need to study economics.

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    5. Re:Capitalism at work? by datavirtue · · Score: 1

      Right now we have banks sitting on cash (the Fed is paying them interest on reserves!), and they do not want to lend do to the issues you have cited. The House wants the Fed to act and Fed wants the House to act. The Fed's weapons are weak and the House IS weak. Add to this new taxes and regulation and We Have A Problem. Are they getting taxed on the income from the interest the Fed is paying the banks right now? IDK, does anyone else know anything more about this?

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    6. Re:Capitalism at work? by MozeeToby · · Score: 1

      Don't forget, if the price of everything will be cheaper tomorrow than it is today, I'm better off to hold off buying anything until the last possible moment. Deflation harms the economy by slowing consumer spending. Granted, don't see many people in the US capable of thinking that long term, but that is the prevailing theory.

    7. Re:Capitalism at work? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fuck off, arrogant prick. I am well aware that prices fluctuate for a variety of reasons. In a well functioning economy prices do tend to go down as production efficiency increases. We see this in certain areas now like semi-conductors. Again, fuck off in case it wasn't clear the first time.

      Oakgrove

    8. Re:Capitalism at work? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Honestly, it would be better (although almost impossible) to have almost no inflation at all. That would make it easy for people to save for retirement. Whatever you earn now, will be generally worth as much forty years from now.

      The problem is determining when value has been created and added to system and injecting additional money to stave off deflation. Even more difficult is how to pull money out of the system to combat inflation.

      Hoarding wealth could be solved with taxation. Generally just put a large inheritance tax in place. If your kids want to be as rich as you were, they'll have to work for it or be as brilliant as you were.

    9. Re:Capitalism at work? by cpu6502 · · Score: 1

      >>>But if prices went down for everything, that means the cost of living would also go down, which means that employees would be willing to work for less, so wages would fall, so the real value of goods remains constant.

      It worked just fine in the U.S. 1800s when inflation was essentially zero. There's no reason we can't fix the money supply to ~3 trillion circulating dollars and have another century of zero inflation.

      --
      My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
    10. Re:Capitalism at work? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As the cost goes down due to increasing technology, people want more technology, thus spending more money.

      Ask your grandparents what regular things they paid for when they were 20. Here's the full list: Clothing, rent, food, doctor, dentist, books, stamps, tools (and related supplies), a radio, water (if they didn't have a well, many people did have one back then), gas/wood/coal, possibly electricity, perhaps a barber.

      Think about the stuff *you* buy now and how much more you spend on it than the stuff above, and how much of the above you still buy.

    11. Re:Capitalism at work? by Cuddlah · · Score: 1

      I think this analysis only applies to real goods. As Black Parrot points out, models start breaking down when you factor in terms like infinite supply (because it costs nothing to "make" one more ad) and zero demand (because given the choice, everyone would opt out of advertising altogether). If the process of serving up the umpteenth copy of the same ad banner actually consumed something more than a practically infinitesimal amount of energy (as compared to, say, erecting a billboard, or running a print ad in a magazine, or even producing a TV commercial), this whole discussion would not be reduced to what is essentially the advertiser asserting its imagined "rights" to our attention. Kind of like how mp3s have forced the music industry to fight music piracy on a wholly intellectual level since music copying today does not typically involve the exchange of an real property - the value is solely in the "license" they provide a customer with which entitles that customer to enjoy the recorded performance. An internet ad is an ephemeral and worthless thing, in and of itself, and like the money used to pay for those ads, their value is entirely based on a fiction of worth. It is "worth" $50 per 1,000 ad displays if the advertiser is confident that those 1,000 ads will generate at least $51 in revenue. When the difference in the actual cost to serve up 1,000 ads from the cost to serve up 10,000 ads is negligible, the worth to the advertiser is similarly eroded.

    12. Re:Capitalism at work? by Nethemas+the+Great · · Score: 1

      That is true, however, very few want to drive a model T or make calls with a DynaTAC.

      --
      Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once ... with negative results.
    13. Re:Capitalism at work? by ceoyoyo · · Score: 2

      "which means that employees would be willing to work for less"

      That's a big, unjustified assumption. The historical record suggests that it's untrue. As things become cheaper we expect our standard of living to increase and, over the long term, it definitely has.

    14. Re:Capitalism at work? by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 1

      No, capitalism seeks a steady state -- the optimal strategy for production and consumption (in a game theoretic sense). Prices cannot fall indefinitely; eventually, you either hit a physical limit on how efficiently goods can be produced, or you hit an economic limit, where lower prices would not be competitive or profitable (mature markets).

      Also, inflation has nothing to do with costs increasing; inflation means the value of a single unit of currency decreases, but the real cost (inflation adjusted) of goods is determined by economic and physical constraints.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    15. Re:Capitalism at work? by lightknight · · Score: 1

      Herp Derp, but that somehow involves bringing back child labor, or repealing current labor laws, or ending the minimum wage!

      --
      I am John Hurt.
    16. Re:Capitalism at work? by garbut · · Score: 1

      This girl does ...or if you have time for the long version

      --
      Oh, should I have sugar-coated that?
  13. I'm desensitized. by samazon · · Score: 1

    They say video games and tv desensitize you to violence and sex? I've been so inundated with advertising that I don't even care anymore. I literally do not pay attention to anything that scrolls, flashes, or pops up. My attention can no longer be grabbed. If I want your ads (read: Newegg and Buddies Pro Shop) I'll sign up for an email newsletter. Otherwise, you can forget any ad making an impression on me.

    --
    I have the hiccups.
    1. Re:I'm desensitized. by hattig · · Score: 1

      That's exactly it. I don't see adverts any longer either. But I'll read some of the emails that I've opted in to (yeah, mostly tech shops, etc).

      So one solution for the retailers is to create a better relationship with your existing customers to keep them coming back and recommending your company to other people. Stop throwing loads of money at trying to get new customers by increasingly less efficient online adverts, and try different means of promoting your company that will get people's attention.

      I will admit to clicking on a few of the Google text adverts and paid-for search results when looking for kitchen white goods recently. Those ads give me more information in a line of text than any flash animated or video advert ever has.

  14. Too much screaming. by pubwvj · · Score: 1

    The advertisers scream and rant and rave. Pretty soon we filter them out both with automatic filtering done at the software level and and mental filtering done at the wetware level.

    If I want something I go looking for it. Advertising doesn't make me buy. Thus advertising is a waste of money. It just jacks up the costs. In tight markets that extra cost makes or breaks.

    1. Re:Too much screaming. by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 2

      I know someone who is heavily involved in business management (involved in management consultant at the Vice President and above level of companies like Nissan USA, IBM, GMAC, etc) who has repeatedly said that good advertising/marketing is providing information to your potential customers. He would argue that the only time a business really wants to advertise/market to someone is when they are looking for something that business sells.
      Really the problem with advertising has become that businesses no longer see it as informing potential customers about the products they sell, but instead see it as some sort of magical incantation to get people to buy their product even when it isn't something those people actually want. The more often a businesses advertising causes a person to buy something they do not actually want, the less effective advertising becomes going forward. If businesses would focus on convincing the people who actually want their product that they want their product they would find advertising effectiveness to go up significantly.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    2. Re:Too much screaming. by edremy · · Score: 1

      You think that, but you're not correct. An awful lot of advertising has nothing to do with selling X to you right now. It's to let you know that X is available, and from company Y. In a year or two you might find a case where you need X, and your subconscious will remember that you can get it from Y. Most people only consider 2-3 options when buying something, so getting on that list is critical.

      --
      "Seven Deadly Sins? I thought it was a to-do list!"
    3. Re:Too much screaming. by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      Well, that's what advertisers tell you when they're trying to convince you to buy ads with no objective evidence that they work.

    4. Re:Too much screaming. by residieu · · Score: 1

      Well it has worked for years outside the Internet, and it's still working there.

    5. Re:Too much screaming. by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      Well it has worked for years outside the Internet, and it's still working there.

      Convincing companies to buy ads with no evidence that they work has worked, yes. But now they can directly determine how many people click on their ads and how many then buy a product, so they can more easily see whether the ads do work.

    6. Re:Too much screaming. by pubwvj · · Score: 1

      The problem is I never buy X or Y. Ever. I go for W or Z which I research and find are what really fit my needs. So the advertising dollars spent on X and Y are wasted when the ads are presented to me. You want to believe otherwise but you're simply off base.

    7. Re:Too much screaming. by residieu · · Score: 1

      No. They can tell whether people click on the ads or immediately by a product. If the viewer didn't click they're left with the same question "Did the ad work?".

    8. Re:Too much screaming. by PlusFiveTroll · · Score: 1

      That's why any number of groups astroturf and make fake posts about how good something is. Many of these stand out and are obvious, but the good ones blend in and are convincing.

    9. Re:Too much screaming. by pubwvj · · Score: 1

      Which is why one does real research. I need non-corroding reinforcing for a bit of concrete I'm pouring in a USDA meat processing facility. Rather than just reading surface reviews I read deeply, I talk with people in the industry that I know, I read the science reports, I get samples, I test... Advertising plays no part in it.

  15. business rule by slashmydots · · Score: 1

    There's a rule in business. If you make money off of primarily 1 main product and everyone universally hates your product, you're eventually going to go bankrupt. Welcome to advertising!

  16. Please correct the link by Hugh+Pickens+writes · · Score: 1

    Could you please correct the submitter's link.

    It should be:

    http://honorponcacity.com/

    The link is correct in my original submission.

    Best Regards,

    Hugh Pickens

  17. Wait, Motorola Mobility will save Google? by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 2

    The company that has been hemmoraging money since 2004 will save Google from declining ad revenues?

    --
    Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
    1. Re:Wait, Motorola Mobility will save Google? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agree, that seemed to be an overly optimistic point in the summary. Google, like Facebook, is heavily dependent on digital ads. Motorola's revenues (hopefully) support the employees of Motorola, not the employees in Google's online businesses.

  18. Myspace tried that by Animats · · Score: 5, Interesting

    If each ad display has less value, maintaining revenue means being more agressive with advertisements.

    Myspace tried that. That didn't end well. It didn't work out well for Yahoo, either.

    Facebook is trying it now. That may not end well. One clear implication - Facebook stock is hugely overpriced. Based on current revenue, Facebook is worth about $7 per share. The stock price assumes a huge growth in revenue. Probably not going to happen. Even a slow decline in Facebook's revenue means the glory days are over.

    Ads on search results are worth far more than ads on other media. Ads on search results are presented when someone is actively looking for something in the relevant category. Ads on content are irrelevant interruptions.

    1. Re:Myspace tried that by Sir_Sri · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Facebook stock is hugely overpriced. Based on current revenue, Facebook is worth about $7 per share. The stock price assumes a huge growth in revenue

      Unless you're a real pro financial analyst you can't claim it is overpriced and then immediately point out that it's priced assuming a huge growth model. Just because ads look like they're going to do poorly doesn't mean Facebook can't still see a huge growth in revenue, they have a huge segment of the world economy that has facebook but mostly sketchy shitty ads, they have the option to bundle up your data and sell that, and the more users they have and the more information they have the more they can bundle up and sell that info for. Not to mention some very valuable infrastructure they could sell in some way shape or form to other companies which could be extremely lucrative (think Amazon's cloud). Or some other business plan that may not seem central to Facebook but might have some serious value.

      Ads on content have always been 'irrelevant interruptions', but they're also much harder to quantify in value. People aren't going to buy a car because of a magazine or facebook ad, or even likely click on a car ad on facebook. But GM advertising on facebook at least shows they're still in business (which, for a while there, was important to tell people). TV ads were always about trying to convince people they wanted to buy your product, and hammer away at that point with repetition, while at the same time generally keeping people aware of the brand. Ads on searches are, on an individual basis going to have the potential to be much easier to quantify, because you can track clicks and sales per click and you can monitor user behaviour after they clicked on an ad and that sort of thing.

    2. Re:Myspace tried that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Unless you're a real pro financial analyst you can't ...

      I stopped reading there. What magic do "real pro financial analysts" have which slashdotters do not have?

    3. Re:Myspace tried that by TheRaven64 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I stopped reading there. What magic do "real pro financial analysts" have which slashdotters do not have?

      They can convincingly spout bullshit.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    4. Re:Myspace tried that by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 2

      The fact that ad value is hard to quantify is what built the advertising business. It has been proven effective for maintaining brand awareness, but that is a dangerous game because how many brands do most people have a capacity for? My guess is around 100 to a maximum of about 300. Drowning out your competitor with more ads quickly hits diminishing returns-- you have to try different approaches. (Flugtag comes to mind.)

      The other ad segment, actually measurably selling stuff, is constrained by the amount of shopping people do while being distracted by an ad. From personal experience, it is less than 1% of my discretionary spending, which doesn't do much for the value of those ads.

      All the bundling of the same data in Facebook's arsenal is ultimately less valuable than what Amazon has on its Prime customers in terms of commercial benefit. Amazon does a miserable job of working with the data right now, but with time they are much more likely to capitalize on it.

    5. Re:Myspace tried that by tripleevenfall · · Score: 1

      Facebook already has no real way to generate revenue that justifies the company's value.

      Over time, the savvy of a typical user increases and this makes them less susceptible to advertising. Of course, no one WANTS to be advertised to or to be influenced by advertising. You have to pop advertising out in front of them in a situation where they won't disregard it (Watch this :30 video clip, then we'll show you the video you desire)

      Facebook seems to need to invent new ways to advertise - but there are only so many ways you can pop a Starbucks logo up in front of someone. They will fall into the same trap as the companies in TFA - all they can do is deliver more impressions, not more sales.

      Once Facebook sees the member decline like Myspace did - something better comes along, or it becomes uncool - they will fall in a hurry.

      Facebook will one day be sold at a laugher's price like MySpace was.

    6. Re:Myspace tried that by DogDude · · Score: 1

      Facebook stock is worth what people will pay for it. Period. Any kind of "valuation" based on anything else is complete and total bullshit. The only value the stock has is what people will pay for it, and that's based on nothing at all. The only actual "valuation" a stock can have is if it pays regular dividends, which most stocks don't do at all any more.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    7. Re:Myspace tried that by Trepidity · · Score: 1

      Ads on search results are worth far more than ads on other media. Ads on search results are presented when someone is actively looking for something in the relevant category. Ads on content are irrelevant interruptions.

      For the most part I agree, but there is probably money to be made in the annoying ads that successfully interrupt content, if someone can pull it off so that enough users actually watch it, at least to the extent that they do on television. That might be the case with the 15-second ads that you see before each episode when you try to watch episodes on colbertnation.com, for example.

    8. Re:Myspace tried that by Sir_Sri · · Score: 2

      What magic do "real pro financial analysts" have which slashdotters do not have?

      The time to read all of facebooks public disclosure documents, and time to pay attention to all of their statements about future revenue, and have the background to actually understand all of the content, which those of us who do real work ignore.

    9. Re:Myspace tried that by Sir_Sri · · Score: 1

      What magic do "real pro financial analysts" have which slashdotters do not have?

      Maybe, but my knowledge of video game brands is independent of my knowledge of dishwashers. I think I can easily track a lot more than 300 brands, just not all in the same sector. Hell I could probably pick out 100 + brands that I'm aware of from the grocery store, even though they're all actually sub brands of a handful of big mega corps my bread isn't branded the same as my soup.

      But yes, in general that's why there is such a big trend towards walmart style centralization for things where brand doesn't matter, I have no particular attachment to pens or bread or the like, so advertising those products doesn't really matter. But any product where I need to make a deliberate purchase (cultural content, expensive items etc.) there's always going to be a market for ads.

    10. Re:Myspace tried that by Znork · · Score: 2

      There are certainly times when I want to be advertised to. Place an ad on a price comparison site in the form of your price and what you're selling and I'll certainly find that valuable. Or get your product reviewed in a magazine or by some consumer testing site. Even brand advertisements hold some interest when I'm shopping or researching things I'm in the market for.

      However, advertising on facebook is akin to some asshat barging into a conversation I'm having with a friend in a bar and trying to sell something.

      It doesn't matter if he knows everything about me, he can't sell me on anything but having the proprietor kicking him out for bothering the customers.

      Consumer profiling isn't worth anywhere near its hype. Knowing someone's interest is useless without being able to target when they're interested in the specific thing, and there are already much better ways to target temporally by simply targetting interest sites, magazines, searches and consumer info/pricing sites.

      With facebook, the one thing you can be pretty sure of is that the viewer isn't currently engaged in shopping.

    11. Re:Myspace tried that by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      The hability to lie every day of the year, be proven wrong after nearly all of those, and still have people like the GP trusting them.

    12. Re:Myspace tried that by Crypto+Gnome · · Score: 1

      Unless you're a real pro financial analyst ....

      Insert ROFLMAO here.

      Facebook current revenues are 99.99% ad-based.

      They *currently* have no actual (concrete, well defined, or even roughly sketched out) idea how to monetize their users beyond a vague "we have all this data and squillions of users surely that's worth money".

      Only the most retarded idiot has *any* confidence in the Future Financial Security of Facebook Shares other than as a mid-term pump-n-dump scheme.

      Sure I may be wrong, they *may* turn things around, but based on *real facts* and *current* evidence, they're royally fucked.

      Having said that: the stock market is ALL about speculation and sometimes that risk you punted on pays out and the rest of us end up kicking ourselves.

      The Stock Market is Risk Vs Reward. HUGE Reward almost always implies HUGE Risk (and sometimes even vice versa).

      --
      Visit CryptoGnome in his home.
    13. Re:Myspace tried that by neyla · · Score: 1

      It's worse than that: if they where consistently wrong, they'd actually be useful since you'd come out ahead by doing the opposite thing from what they recommend.

      No, they're claims are random noise. If you ask them to pick 10 winners and 10 losers for the next month, then check, you'll find that on the average their "winners" did about as well as their "loosers".

  19. Alternative hypothesis by JDG1980 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This follows a 12 percent drop last quarter and 8 percent the quarter before that showing an unfortunate reality of online advertising â" unlike the print world, internet ads lose value over time.

    Or, alternatively, print ads were never really all that successful, but unlike on the Web, there was never any way to measure their efficacy with much precision.

    1. Re:Alternative hypothesis by tthomas48 · · Score: 2

      And in the same spirit. Companies really like seeing 30 second movies about themselves on TV regardless of return on investment. Internet Ads are nowhere near as fun as TV ads or magazine ads you can put in a frame.

    2. Re:Alternative hypothesis by kaiser423 · · Score: 1

      +1

      I've seen lots of people pay way more to get ads on TV at totally random times that probably reach none of their customers just so they can see their add on TV. It feels more real to them.

      Really, Groupon is one of the new places/styles for internet ads. You have a new restaurant and need to get the word out? Put out a Groupon or facebook deal or similar and watch droves of people come in. It's really incredibly effective. One of my favorite local restaurants went from being a ghost town to at full capacity for two weeks straight due to a well-timed Groupon, which then trailed off quickly. But form that they now have a relatively steady clientele that keeps them in business. Best money they ever spent. Way better than ROI than the TV and radio ads they were buying before.

    3. Re:Alternative hypothesis by sootman · · Score: 1

      Also, print ads didn't get exponentially more annoying year after year.

      --
      Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
    4. Re:Alternative hypothesis by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Part of the problem has been that most analytics around web advertising are flawed, and that pricing is based on clicks and views that do not necessarily translate into sales. Most clicks and views do not lead to sales. Add in the number of fake users and clicks (there was a recent bbc story on it) and the problem for advertisers is easy to see.

      Web advertising to generate new sales is simply not that effective for most brands (there are exceptions). The most effective use of web advertising for most brands is in the retentive or reminder stage of advertising. Here you are simply reinforcing an existing brand rather than trying to build a new one.

      The use of overly aggressive ads on the internet only helps to make legit products look like scams and to train users to avoid and/or ignore those ads. Much the same way an annoying radio spot will cause you to change the channel, or an annoying TV spot prompts people to press skip on the dvr, mute the station, flip the channel, and so forth.

    5. Re:Alternative hypothesis by gatfirls · · Score: 1

      I disagree, outside of brand marketing that really doesn't seek to increase immediate results, companies have long been able to measure the effect of advertisements. The problem with the internet is that most advertising is unfocused, "scammy" (lose weight, cash for gold, catch the monkey), and just altogether horrible. Some more popular websites remind me of the TV show in 'Idiocracy' and I'd bet a loss in CPC can be attributed to the amount of "false" "click throughs" by people just trying to navigate around pages wallpapered with ads. I also suspect that a lot of companies expect a lot more out of click throughs than is realistic.

    6. Re:Alternative hypothesis by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 2

      Pretty much every merchant loses money on groupons. They hope to build a following, but that really isn't what grouponners are after-- they just want the next deal.

    7. Re:Alternative hypothesis by residieu · · Score: 1

      We don't have a good way to measure the effectiveness of web ads. It's just that we have SOMETHING we can measure easily (clicks), so advertisers have latched on to that and pretend it's the only thing that matters (or at least the only they they'll pay for).

    8. Re:Alternative hypothesis by tomhath · · Score: 1

      Most business owners will tell you that advertising pays. It annoys most people, but potential customers respond to it. Everyone else doesn't matter.

  20. No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    I work in Google ads and the cost-per-click fretting miss the mark for lots of reasons.

    - First we are talking year-over-year drop so the numbers are nowhere close to what the summary implies. In fact, they went up last quarter if I recall correctly.
    - Second we believe lowering cost-per-click is a *good* thing as long as other metrics (such as revenue and clickthrough rate) stay neutral. It means advertisers are getting their clicks for less cost, which makes them happier, and more likely to dump more money in. This is exactly what has happened recently. It is not because advertisers are lowering bids - it is because of (intentional) changes on our end mostly.
    - There is only one legitimate actual concern here: advertisers pay less for mobile ads, and mobile is becoming more and more important. But that has nothing to do with less interest in ads in general.

    1. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What?! How Dare You Question TFA!! TFA Knows All! Fool!

    2. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Second we believe lowering cost-per-click is a *good* thing as long as other metrics (such as revenue and clickthrough rate) stay neutral

      If CPC drops and clickthrough rate stays neutral, how does revenue not decline?

    3. Re:No by gbjbaanb · · Score: 1

      I guess so, but then Baidu has had quite a bit of growth (60%) in its ad revenues recently. That said, they're going into smartphones too so maybe just copying what Google does is a business model :)

    4. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This AC's response should replace the entire "article".

  21. It's just the declining economy in Europe. by DOsinga · · Score: 1

    Look at this graph: http://www.rimmkaufman.com/content/Goog-Growth-Q1-2012.png CPC go up and go down. But not like Wolff says, always going down. They went sharply down around 2008, then went up for a bit, now go down. I blame economic contraction in Europe which account for half of Google's traffic.

    1. Re:It's just the declining economy in Europe. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought europe was supposed to be smarter than everyone else. WHY U CLICK THE ADS EUROPE!

  22. Yeah buying Motorola should really help..... by Karlt1 · · Score: 2

    "'I don't know anyone in the ad-supported Web business who isn't engaged in a relentless, demoralizing, no-exit operation to realign costs with falling per-user revenues,' â" including its recent acquisition of Motorola,"

    Because being a commodity Android phone manufacturer definitely protects you from a relentless, demoralizing no-exit operations to realign costs with falling per-user revenues.....

    http://www.asymco.com/2011/05/16/iphone-share-of-phone-market-in-q1/

  23. Learning to "think" around them by davidwr · · Score: 2

    Time was, Internet ads were a novelty. I've since learned to "see past them," pretty much ignoring them.

    It's to the point now that if your ad is so in your face that it gets my attention, I view it as intrusive and it has a NEGATIVE impact instead of the positive impact you wanted it to have.

    I learned the same trick with newspaper, billboard, TV, and radio ads as a child. I expect most others did as well. This might explain why the effectiveness of those ads hasn't changed recently.

    This comment sponsored by Commander Taco's Pink Ponies. Geeky Girls love Commander Taco's Pink Ponies.

    I am having to learn this trick over again for electronic-billboard ads and product-placement ads, but once I do, things will be back to a "steady state" of non-changing (in-)effectiveness.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  24. gloves and suspenders by epine · · Score: 1

    These sorts of ads have become much more popular recently and I can only conclude it's because they work.

    There's a scene in Schindler's List where Amon Goeth sizes up Schindler's strange request remarking, "Whatever you do, there's always money in it, but this one I can't figure out." For some reason, I didn't spot this one in the usual movie quote compilations. Probably because the point is sharp but the language is dull.

    I wouldn't jump to conclusions too quickly. Fortunately for his Jews, Schindler was able to mutter in his getaway car "there are more motives in heaven and earth, Amon, than are dreamt of in your philosophy".

    Ultimately the problem here is that advertising tends not to be such a huge value add, unless you value the convenience of shopping at Margins-R-Us a whole lot.

    Step 1: Identify the desired product.
    Step 2: Find a vendor with "flow through" pricing.
    Step 2a: s/Trademark\$*/generic_name

    Just an hour ago I was looking for cut resistant gloves to handle glass carboys: s/Kevlar/aramid/ Bingo! On the plus side, a partially severed tendon would cut down no my posting obsession, with a coefficient of about 20wpm/mm. I'm also going to wrap the bottles in bundling tape to coral shards. I'm a gloves and suspenders type of guy.

  25. The only successfully ad company is Amazon by vlm · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The only successful targeted internet ad company that I know of is Amazon.

    I've bought hundreds (thousands?) of dollars of stuff based on recommended items. I forget exactly how they phrase it but its something like "people who bought your Charlie Stross book "Rule 34" also bought the following books" and they list Accelerando and The Apocalypse Codex and so on. Ditto about a zillion other authors and non-book products.

    I've never intentionally clicked on or purchased anything from any other targeted ad, and have been using ad blockers since weeks after that tech was invented.

    The scary part is thinking about what really finely focused /. ads would push on us /.ers. Hmm. Instant Hot Grits, Debian install disks, buy this package at a discount: one cup now with pix of two girls, lots of rick astley / rickroll music...

    --
    "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    1. Re:The only successfully ad company is Amazon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only successful targeted internet ad company that I know of is Amazon.

      Well, Google seems to do okay. Perhaps you don't click on their ads, or buy stuff because of them, but many people must.

    2. Re:The only successfully ad company is Amazon by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

      They might do a good job for books, but my wife is sick of being recommended soldering irons and I am sick of fitness products. Since I already have a very nice soldering iron that they are well aware of, it is unlikely that I will be buying another any time soon.

      And we shop on our iPads in a bar! How much more impressionable can we be?!

    3. Re:The only successfully ad company is Amazon by steelfood · · Score: 2

      Because Amazon is a retailer, it's not an ad, it's a recommendation. It's like the salesperson at Best Buy or some other brick and mortar recommending that you buy the latest 802.11n router with your brand spanking new laptop.

      To be an ad, Amazon would have to be the company responsible for the product or service that it is recommending. E.g. if you saw stuff on Amazon's product pages about their S3 rates, that'd be an ad.

      --
      "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    4. Re:The only successfully ad company is Amazon by Nethemas+the+Great · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure I'd say the only "successful," however, I would say that I--the customer--do appreciate their advertising far more than anyone else's. It's usually relevant, and I look for it, it doesn't come looking for me. Barnes and Noble (a brick-n-mortar bookseller) does a similar thing by occasionally sticking little slips of paper in their books that provide me with a list of similarly themed books. I often find them when I'm reading a book I've purchased and on a number of occasions I've went out and purchased one of the books on the list. I find this kind of advertising "useful" and that is the missing ingredient with most other advertisers. Advertisements should serve me, the customer first, and as a consequence, them when I purchase the product they helped me find. I don't think I've ever in my life purchased a product or service from an ad that was randomly thrown in my face. I've lost track of the number of products I've purchased on Amazon.com and at companies that use similar advertising strategies.

      --
      Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once ... with negative results.
    5. Re:The only successfully ad company is Amazon by Rinikusu · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I frequently read through amazon's ad mail and I like how they put what you "liked" in the subject so I have an idea of what it is.
      The "you looked at these shoes or this guitar" and now puts those shoes and guitar on rotating ads are spooky...

      --
      If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
    6. Re:The only successfully ad company is Amazon by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 1

      The only successful targeted internet ad company that I know of is Amazon.

      There is a reason for that: targetted ads creep people out. Amazon can get away with it because people are not surprised to see that Amazon knows what they buy -- it is not more creepy than walking into a hardware store, putting a hammer and some lumber in front of the cashier, and being asked if you also need nails.

      On the other hand, when I am reading an email from my mother about Aunt So-and-so's kidney stones, it seems invasive to have advertisements about kidney health show up. It is even worse when those ads start popping up on other websites. Remember the story about Target discovering a teenager's pregnancy before her father? For all the talk about how we do not have privacy, people still seem to expect some amount of privacy, and they still get angry when their privacy is violated.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    7. Re:The only successfully ad company is Amazon by mister_dave · · Score: 1

      I'm a big fan of Amazon's recommendations too. Coupled with the customer reviews, it's driven a lot of my book/gizmo buying.

    8. Re:The only successfully ad company is Amazon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The scary part is thinking about what really finely focused /. ads would push on us /.ers. Hmm. Instant Hot Grits, Debian install disks, buy this package at a discount: one cup now with pix of two girls, lots of rick astley / rickroll music...

      Most slashdotters likely use one or more ad blocking strategies.

      The 'best Slashdot ad' would likely not be an ad at all but a revenue model without ads that actually works (difficult to say the least). Maybe Slashdot should open up a diverse store-front similar to Newegg?

    9. Re:The only successfully ad company is Amazon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because Amazon is a retailer, it's not an ad, it's a recommendation. It's like the salesperson at Best Buy or some other brick and mortar recommending that you buy the latest 802.11n router with your brand spanking new laptop.

      To be an ad, Amazon would have to be the company responsible for the product or service that it is recommending. E.g. if you saw stuff on Amazon's product pages about their S3 rates, that'd be an ad.

      Amazan definitely has advertisements paid for by various companies. Perhaps, you just don't see them because you use ad-blocking?

      Also, you might want to look up what an ad is, I think your definition is a bit off.

    10. Re:The only successfully ad company is Amazon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree Amazon works to a point.
      As a foreign user, I have to get a re-mailer to get USA only stuff, so this is annoying. But somehow I get all these ads anyway, and these 'imprints' are money down the toilet to USA businesses unless they ship international.
      I have moved up to the next level and now use AliExpress and 3 or 4 direct from China box sites.
      All these pricegrabber sites are a waste of time - if I want it, I also plug it into the plain box sites and order from the cheapest.
      I don't know what games Ebay is playing, but they have lost most of my business - their model is distorted.
      In short,online ads are shrinking, and the only winner is google because of volume.

    11. Re:The only successfully ad company is Amazon by vlm · · Score: 1

      Most slashdotters likely use one or more ad blocking strategies.

      The 'best Slashdot ad' would likely not be an ad at all but a revenue model without ads that actually works (difficult to say the least).

      /. poll? "Shopping list under $100 :" and list 9 items complete with amazon referral bonus code links and, of course, "cowboy neal" option? I would be moderately interested to see which item wins the poll assuming they're somehow related. The key is the poll comments would drive what I actually buy... if anything.

      The wisdom of /. has never steered me wrong on non-commodity technical purchases and most service purchases... ever. Not a failure in over a decade.
      On the bad side, ask /. for advice on commodities like phone service (which depends solely on your local tower, which is idiotic to discuss on a worldwide website) or anecdotes about "a" car somehow applying to all cars ever made with that model badge, ditto hard drives...

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    12. Re:The only successfully ad company is Amazon by tinet · · Score: 1

      yes i like Amazon when i go on Squidoo Squidoo

  26. I expect I'm an outlier, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've stopped using Google as much as possible these past 8 months or so. Not that I was a big clicker on their ads, but the whole place is giving me the creeps. From the data collection, to their politicization and activism, I'm just not interested in continuing to contribute to any of that and my paranoid self is wary of keeping myself in the crossfire of those aspects. So I use other venues for the services they offer as enticements. As a result, I don't even see much of Google's ads anymore.

    Maybe I'm not alone?

    Don't even get me started on Facebook.

  27. Misleading by roosauce · · Score: 2

    This article is pretty misleading. Overall spend on paid search is up, not down. Spend on online display is up, not down.

    One of the liked articles says "To make up for the CPC loss, it managed to increase overall clicks by 42 percent". That's pretty speculative as to the direction of causation. It makes more sense that clicks are growing heavily in non-premium keywords, ones that command lower price points. I haven't seen any evidence that premium keyword ad pricing is falling dramatically.

    One thing that does ring true is that overall online advertising spend growth is trailing inventory growth, and therefore per-unit pricing on inventory is probably decreasing. Spend growing, inventory volumes growing faster, per unit prices falling.

    1. Re:Misleading by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Overall spend on paid search is up

      We have a perfectly good noun, expenditure. Please use it and please stop copying the language you heard your CFO using in that Town Hall meeting.

  28. Re:work at home by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    as Edward responded I didnt even know that a person able to earn $5472 in one month on the internet. did you read this web page http://www.makcash16.com/

    the ironing is delicious.
    well played, old chap!

  29. situational blindness by Thud457 · · Score: 1

    /fnard

    --

    the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

    1. Re:situational blindness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean fnord.

    2. Re:situational blindness by davidwr · · Score: 1

      Are you sure? Maybe Thud's a World of Warcraft fan.

      --
      Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  30. Internet ads lose value over time? by Hsien-Ko · · Score: 1

    Goddmanit, how come no one told me this? Time to ditch my vintage Netscape 2.0 Now! gifs.

  31. Who needs clicks? All you gotta do is see it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How often have you clicked on a TV commercial? How often have you clicked a print ad? Clicking those ads isn't the point. All the advertiser wants you to know is already there, branding its image into your mind. Whenever I see Pepsi I still think "You've got the right one, baby, uh huh!" because I watched this commercial http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D_srHpH6jg back in the 90s. That commercial has been STUCK IN MY HEAD for decades now. And I never once clicked on it.

  32. Advertising by nighthawk243 · · Score: 1

    What the hell is an advertisement?

    *points to Adblock*

  33. Matches my observations by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I am seeing more and more ads with less and less value. I may even click on a few more. Perhaps companies should start think about a business plan based on an inexhaustible supply of eyeballs and clickers. It doesn't seem to work to well for business plans for an inexhaustible middle class.

  34. Clue for advertisers by Eggplant62 · · Score: 1

    Search engine rank. Make it so I am able to find your products and services when I want/need them. Throwing flashy bouncy wobbly crap written to a 3rd grade reading level on every frickin' page doesn't make me want to click through to buy your product. Rather, it makes me want to install a filter so I never see that crap.

    1. Re:Clue for advertisers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And the search/ranking engines will make money how?

  35. But.... by meglon · · Score: 1

    ...that's only the perspective of the companies that carry the adds to generate their revenue. If the cost of the adds are going down, yet online sales continue to rise, that means the value of those adds to the people actually placing them increases; costing less to generate more.

    --
    Fascism: An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization. See also: NAZI's
  36. Ditch Cost Per Click by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They should be courting the same advertisers that advertise on TV or in magazines. Coke and GM have no idea whether you see their ad on TV, and they certainly don't expect you to immediately stand up and go buy their product (or even pick up the phone and call a dealer). They get their name in your head so when you ARE making a buying decision, you think of them.

    Sell the ads by saying you can give them MUCH better targeting than a magazine or TV show can, but charge them per displayed ad, not per click.

  37. Facebook is the *CAUSE* of the problem by tekrat · · Score: 2

    People that *used* to spend their time on various internet websites (and maybe used to click on ads), now spend *all* their time on facebook.

    Facebook has supplanted the rest of the commercial internet. People that hung out on Reddit or 4Chan or Digg or iWon.com now just spend all their time playing FarmWars on facebook.

    Online advertising *depended* upon "dummies". People that actually would try to punch the money. People that believed you could get a Laptop for one dollar. People that were interested in a local housewife's anti-aging/diet formula that WORKS!!! and the big companies don't want anyone to know about.

    Yes. Dummies. And now those dummies are on Facebook, sharing George Takei's silly pictures, posting lolcats, and piss-poor photoshops as "real images". That's why internet revenues are down -- those dummies are too busy with their lolcats to punch the monkey.

    --
    If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
  38. I feel this pain by bbbaldie · · Score: 1

    I used to make a steady 300-350 bucks a month from Adsense ads on my sites. My recent months have been 150-200. I figured it was because of the fall of IE and the rise of Chrome and Firefox, both of which are seldom seen without Adblock Plus.

  39. Mobile is the culprit by cwgmpls · · Score: 1

    Most casual computing, especially by the consumers that ad buyers are trying to reach, is now being done on mobile devices. And it is just not possible to make an attractive, informative ad on a small mobile screen without crowding out some other essential function. Mobile devices simply don't have enough spare real estate on which to place ads. Compared to computer screens, the number of ads that can be displayed at one time on a mobile device is severely limited, and the ad itself has to be relatively small

    Moving to mobile helps get rid of many ads. Now, if we could just get everyone to move to text-only devices, we should be able to get rid of ads completely!

  40. Ads are not the problem by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 1

    When we needed a couch, you know what we did? We went to a website that is dedicated to advertising: Craigslist. We found a couch, we bought it, and it worked out great.

    What you hate are the ads that have become commonplace on the web, because let's be honest: those are annoying, invasive, and they get worse with each passing year.

    --
    Palm trees and 8
  41. Tragedy of the Commons all around by DragonWriter · · Score: 2

    Adblock: Tragedy of the Commons.

    Are you referring to the decision to use AdBlock being one which is encouraged because of a Tragedy of the Commons situation in which the "players" are consumers of internet content, or are you referring to the production of ad blocking tools being a result of the escalation of intrusive advertising which results from a Tragedy of the Commons in which ad-supported internet sites are the players?

    Because, you know, both are true.

  42. Simple problem, simple solution. by kfsone · · Score: 1

    Solution: Reduce the advertising footprint on your site.

    Problem:

    Pervasiveness: the more ads you squeeze onto each page, the reduced opportunity each one has to catch the users eye. But it's also cumulative. More ads = less content space = increased selectivity by visitors. With so many ads everywhere, we just don't have TIME to click, compounded by the fact that with so many ads everywhere it takes a lot more time to get the stuff we actually came for.

    Ad companies need to look not just at visitors and page impressions, but how much time visitors are spending on pages, more simply put: content value.

    Here's a thought: put article bodies in a scrolling panel and provide a single, choice, ad space next to it. Don't rotate it, don't cycle it, and let me expand the article panel out over it if it doesn't appeal to me -- that piece of information is valuable to marketeers if coupled with which article I was viewing.

    What you have now is an item to retain my attention alongside the ad. Put a second ad there, and you'll make twice as money for a couple of cycles. But more than one ad risks immunizing your readers by conditioning them to just close the ads before their eyes can get there.

    --
    -- A change is as good as a reboot.
  43. Klick through claimed don't match the logs by xtronics · · Score: 1

    We tested Google add words but putting in special trackers in our logging and found they claimed more than twice the clicks than actually happened. This is after they claim they adjust downward the number of clicks.

    Just not cost effective for many businesses - I suppose the bean counters have started figuring it out.

  44. what? by argStyopa · · Score: 1

    "... unlike the print world, internet ads lose value over time...."
    Um, I'm not sure what 'print world' you live in, but print advertising has ALWAYS been exceptionally sensitive to time - in my early days in the trucking business, we had a whole division that dealt with NOTHING but the transport of time-critical printed ads and flyers for magazines, newspapers, and other print media. Miss your delivery and that truckload of $40,000 of printed paper was VALUELESS.

    --
    -Styopa
  45. Eh? by antdude · · Score: 1

    Add support?

    --
    Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
  46. "advertise-them-to-death" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There's a basic fundamental problem with today's advertising model that no-one seems to have noticed.

    The problem is that the more advertising gets thrown at people, the less each individual advertisement is worth.

    The world seems hell-bent on pumping more and more ads to us. It's no wonder people are getting fed up with them and switching off to them (either physically via Adblock or just mentally).

    And even if they do work, we all have only a certain amount of money to spend on the things being advertised. More ads doesn't change that; it simply spreads that cash out more.

    So each ad earns less for the advertiser. But because it's less effective, it also costs less, so they can afford to advertise more..... it's a vicious circle. Taken to its logical conclusion, we'll all spend our entire lives looking at non-stop advertising, with no room for actual content in between. Frankly, some websites and TV channels already feel like that (particularly in the US -- how can you guys bear to watch TV at all?).

  47. Alienated Advertisers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Though I understand that it seems to be advertising across the board, Google for one has alienated advertisers for years with sudden rule changes and no way of finding out why your campaigns jump from 20 cents per click to $2.00. It takes quite an effort now to conform to Google's standards and if you don't, they raise your advertising costs. Personally I think I've avoided a stroke by stopping my advertising with them and honestly, their traffic was mediocre (at least for what I was marketing).

    Of course the economy of the western world is going down the toilet, that doesn't help matters either.

  48. Link hits lousy way to measure ad impact by Eravnrekaree · · Score: 2

    A mistake from the beginning on the internet was to assume users had to click on ads for them to have value. Few other mediums place such a requirement on themselves, including print, billbaords, radio ads, etc. The whole point is to plant awareness of a brand in the mind of trhe consumer, so that they may decide to try the product. It is the same online, if we focus on the ads making a visual impression and creating a memory, they can be seen as effective in creating awareness, and in fact, millions can see an online ad, which makes it something that is as visible as a print ad. Many consumers will see an ad and make a note on it but as they are busy doing something else may not click on the link. its unreasonable to expect users to click on a link and also not necessary.

    Online ads are just an online billboard, its stupid to try to obsess over link hits, something that isnt even a possibility anyway with other ad mediums .
    It seems like the online ad business decided to count link hits, becuse "we could", but it was actually a bad idea, few other ads mediums measure their success on whether a user will make a split second decision but rather on whether they buy the product in coming weeks, even months.

  49. Why internet adds are useless. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Online adds are effectively useless. Only idiots click them and they are easily blocked.
    I run Addblock Plus, Ghostery and No Script. I also use Social Fixer on Facebook.

    If I ever need to be reminded why I deal with these sometimes incontinent addons I just shut them off and every damned webpage suddenly looks like Times Square barfed on it. The internet is unusable and unbearable without add block addons for browsers so most people use them. And that makes online adds useless.

  50. Or more effective by phorm · · Score: 1

    As others have mentioned, there's a line where increasing the "aggressiveness" of advertising reduces its effectiveness. Ever watch a show and every commercial break it's the same damn annoying ad? How about the same ad in one commercial break?

    Ads should be about predicting customer need. I've noticed that as soon as I check out something on Amazon, they start to spam me (at my associated email address) with ads on related topics. Close... but not quite. At least they're trying to show me stuff I might want, but they need to crank back on the volume a bit.

  51. Branding by Cheech+Wizard · · Score: 1

    I agree. I sell ads on my sites directly to companies. I have never solicited ads, companies contact me wanting to advertise, so obviously the advertisements are relevant to visitors. I keep things simple. I make it clear that I don't track clicks, I don't track using cookies, and they get an ad spot which is theirs for as long as they want. There is no ad rotation. Ads are .gif or .jpg files on the server and unless someone blocks images (which would make the sites useless) they will see the ad. They can look up site statistics (I post them monthly) but other than that, nothing. I also ensure the advertiser fully understands I sell advertising space as "Brand" advertising. Most of my advertisers have run for over 4 or 5 years (such as Underwriters Laboratories). I have not had an opening for a new ad on a site since around June 2011. Several of the advertisers track their ads by giving me a distinct URL for their ad and some send me their stats now and again. I thank them but as I tell them, I know nothing about how they figure out their ROI or any other aspect of advertising on the web. Point is, apparently they're all happy or they would be staying on year after year. I will say I probably sell ad space relatively cheaply, but I'd rather have long term, consistent income than try to gouge an advertiser and lose them.

  52. Deflationary Hoarding by reluctantjoiner · · Score: 1

    That sounds intuitive, but when I think about it a little deeper it doesn't make sense. For instance, I can't decide not to eat today on the basis that tomorrow my staples will be cheaper. I grant that for luxuries one would decide against purchasing now. But in the majority that happens now anyway, excepting those with poor impulse control or large wealth.

    In as far as they are rational, people don't really decide to purchase now on the basis of a declining purchasing power. They'll wait for a sale, or until they've built up their savings. In the "worst case" deflationary scenario, that shiny new Mac I've been desiring will cost half us much in a month's time. But with new equipment, there are things I could do now, that I wouldn't otherwise be able to do. So why I am more likely to purchase in a deflationary scenario? Because everything else is similarly deflating (including my wages) but I'm able to save more by putting off other purchases. In the normal situation, I don't have the option to buy now because I have to account for rising energy, fuel and food costs.

    In the end, price is an important consideration, but not the only one in deciding to make a purchase, and in a deflationary scenario, it doesn't take long for the utility of having the thing now to exceed the savings made.

  53. What Is Wrong With Advertising on The Internet by Crypto+Gnome · · Score: 1

    DISCLOSURE: I Hate Ads!

    Not In Principle, but In Practice. (the all pervasive in your face obnoxious page-filling ads which lead to websites spreading a 100 word article across SEVEN PAGES)

    A few years ago there was a delightful little study by (some of) The Big Players in Internet Advertising which announced that FEW people were actually clicking on their ads, and in fact FEWER people every year.

    Their analysis of the problem was that NOBODY NOTICED the advertising, and thus we have the excessive-to-the-point-of-insanity IN YOUR FACE advertising model that is all too pervasive today.

    Google (on the other hand) has always pursued the model that if you properly target your ads, the user is more likely to click (and thusly you can show them LESS ads).{on the flipside, privacy issues, tracking issues, etc etc etc - life is a compromise}

    I would suggest this observed lack of value and race-to-the-bottom in the Internet Advertising industry is a DIRECT result of assuming that your target audience is BLIND AND STUPID and mirrors the RIAA/MPAA model of assuming their users are IMMORAL LAWBREAKERS (and that by CHOICE, not necessity).

    --
    Visit CryptoGnome in his home.
    1. Re:What Is Wrong With Advertising on The Internet by pegasustonans · · Score: 1

      I would suggest this observed lack of value and race-to-the-bottom in the Internet Advertising industry is a DIRECT result of assuming that your target audience is BLIND AND STUPID and mirrors the RIAA/MPAA model of assuming their users are IMMORAL LAWBREAKERS (and that by CHOICE, not necessity).

      Let's be real here, there's very little necessity involved in any of this. It's all about choice.

      But, goddamn it, there's nothing wrong with choosing to not have a web experience fucked over by incessant advertising targeting the lowest common denominator.

      --
      And all our yesterdays have lighted fools The way to dusty death. --Will
  54. FEER TEH INNERTUUBES by Crypto+Gnome · · Score: 4, Informative
    Anyone with more than half a brain can do a quick search for "declining advertising revenues" and IMMEDIATELY discover this decline in revenues is NOT RESTRICTED TO THE INTERNET.

    Also this declining in advertising revenus has been going on for years.

    http://stateofthemedia.org/2012/newspapers-building-digital-revenues-proves-painfully-slow/newspapers-by-the-numbers/

    Rapidly declining advertising revenues continue to be the industry’s core problem. The losses in 2011 were slightly worse than those of 2010 – 7.3% compared to 6.3%. Ad revenues are now less than half what they were in 2006.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/03/business/media/quarterly-profit-falls-12-2-at-times-co.html

    The New York Times Company reported on Thursday that its fourth-quarter profit declined 12.2 percent as rising subscription and digital advertising revenue at its largest newspapers could not offset the continued drop-off in print advertising.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20120703-702076.html

    Mediaset SpA (MS.MI), Italy's largest private broadcaster, expects advertising revenue in its home market to decline in the first half of 2012

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/may/08/itv-advertising-sales-drop

    ITV expected to report first decline in ad revenues for 18 months

    http://www.exa.com.au/articles/autumn_09/

    Meanwhile, free to air broadcasters have experienced multi-million dollar dives in profits and are writing their assets down as worthless. Channel 7, 9 and 10 are crippled by debt and funding problems in the face of declining advertising revenues and changing trends. Likewise, print media is experiencing huge decreases in both readership and advertising revenue.

    http://www.filmneweurope.com/news/romania/declining-ad-revenues-at-romanian-tv

    The deficit of the Romanian's public TV, SRTV (www.tvr.ro), decreased by 0.71% in 2011, to €36.7 million Euro, while revenue from advertising was 7.4 million euro in 2011, down 24.06% from 2010.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-02-15/sbs-admits-financial-trouble/3830502

    SBS battling falling ad revenue

    http://multimedia.journalism.berkeley.edu/tutorials/digital-transform/print-editions-decline/

    A steady decline in print circulation and a precipitous drop in advertising revenue in 2008 and 2009, especially classified advertising, have taken their toll on newspapers and newspaper chains.

    --
    Visit CryptoGnome in his home.
  55. Has nothing to do with ads getting worse. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ads used to be relatively innocuous. Ads came in banners with pretty pictures that if you liked, you would actually click on to see where it goes.

    Now ads make noises, pull-downs that you can't get rid of, pop-ups that can't be blocked if you want access to your site, whole page ads that you have to sit through, sometimes they outright lie, use geolocation to give the impression they are blackmailing you, and as a rule, take five to twenty to a thousand times longer to load then anything else on the page, BUT YOU STILL HAVE TO WAIT FOR TO ACCESS THE CONTENT YOU ACTUALLY WANT.

    I avoid moving my mouse over pull-downs, close pop-ups as soon as I can, click through whole-page ads as soon as I can, and in general do everything to try and avoid ads, except for the simple banners that I actually like, Also, note that paying more so your ad appears every time doesn't make me more likely to click on it, it makes me more likely to get pissed off. This is an obvious case of If you paid less, you would make a lot more.

  56. Premise and Consclusions Incorrect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I disagree with the premise and conclusions of this articlel, as the author is making assumptions that are incorrect. I'll refute 2 key assumptions that discredit his/her arguments.

    1) Cost per click(CPC) is not equivalent to value per click(VPC). (Search Advertising 101)

    2) Google has changed the distribution of clicks yielded on it's platform, not the cost of identical clicks.

    1) Cost per click(CPC) is not equivalent to value per click(VPC).

    The large majority of revenue driven through the AdWords platform is assesed based on the value recieved for a group of clicks in relation to the cost associated with those clicks. The value per click depends on whether or not a user will convert(purchase, register, apply, call, etc) and is independent of the cost the advertiser paid for the click. So this assumption, and the premise for his entire article "Google reported a 16 percent decline in Cost-per-Click (CPC), meaning the value of each advertisement clicked has gone down." is flatly incorrect ... a decline in cost does not imply a decline in value.

    2) Google is changing the distribution of clicks.

    As we discussed above, all clicks are not created equal. The cost number that Google reports is a mean CPC of the current quarter's distribution of clicks. To assume that a quarter-over-quarter decline in CPC is indicative of a quarter-over-quarter decline in VPC relies on the assumption that all clicks from last quarter are of the same value as this quarter. This assumption is false. Google is changing the distribution(highly non-normal) of clicks so the cost and value distributions are changing with it. While the mean CPCs are trending down it's driven by a change in the click distribution, not the cost of those clicks. They've changed the distribution of clicks by improving A) ad products and B) matching technology.

    A) Massively increasing click yield on low cost navigational searches(ex: 'home depot') by offering new 'ad extensions'. There are 5 for 'home depot': Merchant Ratings(the yellow stars), Local(directions and phone numbers), Site Links('Free Shipping...!'), Social(45k people +1'd...) and Imbedded Maps(click on the plus sign). Note that users are clicking on these ads 100% more often than last year but the average CPC for these ads are extremely low as competition for the keyword is almost absent.

    B) Improved matching technology enables advertisements to showing up in 'tail' terms where the relevance of the ad in relation to the user intent is much lower, ie; less liklihood of a good match, so the VPC and resulting CPC of these clicks are less than that of the mean of the distribution of prior quarters. More, less valuable clicks, improves revenue for Google and click volume/budget depletion for the advertiser, but average CPC declines.

  57. 21++ ADVANTAGES OF HOSTS FILES by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Especially vs. AdBlock &/or DNS servers. I use hosts in the following ways (see my 'p.s.' below, in detail, for your reference) to COMPLIMENT & OVERCOME THE PROBLEMS or INEFFICIENCIES IN DNS & OTHER MECHANISMS (like AdBlock) LARGELY!

    Custom hosts files gain me the following benefits (A short summary of where custom hosts files can be extremely useful):

    ---

    1.) Blocking out malware/malscripted sites
    2.) Blocking out Known sites-servers/hosts-domains that are known to serve up malware
    3.) Blocking out Bogus DNS servers malware makers use
    4.) Blocking out Botnet C&C servers
    5.) Blocking out Bogus adbanners that are full of malicious script content
    6.) Getting you back speed/bandwidth you paid for by blocking out adbanners + hardcoding in your favorite sites (faster than remote DNS server resolution)
    7.) Added reliability (vs. downed or misdirect/poisoned DNS servers).
    8.) Added "anonymity" (to an extent, vs. DNS request logs)
    9.) The ability to bypass DNSBL's (DNS block lists you may not agree with).
    10.) More screen "real estate" (since no more adbanners appear onscreen eating up CPU, Memory, & other forms of I/O too - bonus!)
    11.) Truly UNIVERSAL PROTECTION (since any OS, even on smartphones, usually has a BSD drived IP stack).
    12.) Faster & MORE EFFICIENT operation vs. browser plugins (which "layer on" ontop of Ring 3/RPL 3/usermode browsers - whereas the hosts file operates @ the Ring 0/RPL 0/Kernelmode of operation (far faster) as a filter for the IP stack itself...)
    13.) Blocking out TRACKERS
    14.) Custom hosts files work on ANY & ALL webbound apps (browser plugins do not).
    15.) Custom hosts files offer a better, faster, more efficient way, & safer way to surf the web & are COMPLETELY controlled by the end-user of them.

    ---

    * & FAR more... read on below IF you are interested (for detail).

    AND, for those of you that run Microsoft Windows 32 or 64 bit? An automated hosts file creation & mgt. program:

    http://securemecca.com/public/APKHostsFileInstaller/2012_06_01/APKHostsFileEngineInstaller32_64bit.exe.zip

    (You simply extract its files to ANY folder you like (usually one you create for it, doesn't matter where, but you MUST run it as administrator (simple & the "read me" tab shows how easy THAT is to do))

    What's it do for you?

    It's a custom hosts file mgt. program that does the following for end users (Calling it "APK Hosts File Engine 5.0++") after it obtains custom hosts file data from 12 of the reputable & reliable sources listed below:

    ---

    1.) Offers massively noticeable increased speed for websurfing via blocking adbanners

    2.) Offers increased speed for users fav. sites by hardcoding them into the hosts file for faster IP address-to-host/domain name resolutions (which sites RARELY change their hosting providers, e.g.-> of 250 I do, only 6 have changed since 2006 - & when sites do because they found a less costly hosting provider? Then, they either email notify members, put up warnings on their pages, & do IP warnings & redirectors onto the former IP address range to protect vs. the unscrupulous criminal bidding on that range to buy it to steal from users of say, online banking or shopping sites).

    3.) Better "Layered-Security"/"Defense-In-Depth" via blocking host-domain based attacks by KNOWN bad sites-servers that are known to do so (which IS, by far, the majority of what's used by both users (hence the existence of the faulty but for most part working DNS system), AND even by malware makers (since host-domain names are recyclable by they, & the RBN (Russian Business Network & others)) were doing it like mad with "less than scrupulous", or uncaring, hosting providers)

    4.) Better 'anonymity' to an extent vs. DNS request logs (not vs. DPI ("deep packet inspection"))