Slashdot Mirror


How Plagiarism Helped Win the American Revolution

Hugh Pickens writes "Although today the stigma of lifting passages can haunt media professionals forever, Revolutionary War Historian Todd Andrlik writes that 250 years ago stealing another reporter's work without credit was an acceptable form of journalism. In fact, plagiarism was a practice that helped unite the colonies and win the Revolutionary War. 'Without professional writing staffs of journalists or correspondents, eighteenth-century newspaper printers relied heavily on an intercolonial newspaper exchange system to fill their pages,' writes Andrlik. 'Printers often copied entire paragraphs or columns directly from other newspapers and frequently without attribution. As a result, identical news reports often appeared in multiple papers throughout America. This news-swapping technique, and resulting plagiarism, helped spread the ideas of liberty and uphold the colonists' resistance to British Parliament.' For example, an eyewitness account of the Boston Tea Party by 'An Impartial Observer' was first authored for the December 20, 1773, Boston Gazette, but was soon reprinted without edit or attribution in other New England newspapers. News of the Boston Massacre, Battle of Lexington and Concord, the treason of Benedict Arnold and practically every major event of the American Revolution circulated among the colonies much the same way. 'Thanks in no small part to this plagiarism, newspaper printers fanned the flames of rebellion and helped colonists realize the conflict was closer to home than perhaps they wanted to believe.'"

245 comments

  1. Also by 2.7182 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You could write an article about how murder helped win the American revolution. True, but relevant?

    1. Re:Also by captainpanic · · Score: 2

      You could write an article about how murder helped win the American revolution. True, but relevant?

      Yes, relevant.
      It means that you cannot interpret the rules literally and similarly in every case. You just have to use your head. There are times when murder can be justified because you protect a greater good.

      Did that help?

    2. Re:Also by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That one at least would be true. I'm quite sure everyone could have put the authors' names on their newspapers and it wouldn't have made the revolution go any worse.
      Now if they had to negotiate for the _copyright_ of every single article that would have been very different.
      There's a reason why some people (and even some legal frameworks) consider plagiarism more serious than copyright violation.

    3. Re:Also by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      War fought in defense of your home is not murder. Please troll harder

    4. Re:Also by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So 9/11 can be seen as good ?

    5. Re:Also by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      War fought in defense of your home is not murder. Please troll harder

      Killing your neighbours because they don't share your beliefs is murder.

    6. Re:Also by mjr167 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The difference between treason and patriotism is winning.

    7. Re:Also by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Depends, do you think it was worth having all these people killed because of a greater good?
      If you do, then yes, 9/11 was good.

    8. Re:Also by BlearyTruth · · Score: 1

      That's far to general to even be meaningful. What if your neighbors beliefs include that of raping your children and stealing your property and they are acting on these beliefs.

    9. Re:Also by Internetuser1248 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Apart from the fact that nothing good has come of it

    10. Re:Also by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 2

      Obviously, you're talking about something else. He's talking about thoughts and you're talking about actions.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    11. Re:Also by cduffy · · Score: 1

      In an alternate world where the societal effects were exactly opposite what they actually were, it might have been.

    12. Re:Also by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If it was your aim to turn the USA into a police state, attack several other countries, lose the goodwill of many Europeans and ruin the economy of the USA, then yes.

    13. Re:Also by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One of the ugliest buildings in the world was removed, and a lot of stock brokers and lawyers died. How is this not a good thing?

    14. Re:Also by Bigby · · Score: 2

      Except the point being argued is that the lack of attribution made the article feel more localized. The engagement of people not in Boston and Philadelphia by making it feel like it was their war too was a major reason for the success of the War. The argument here is about how much of a role unattributed news played a role in bringing the War to the locals.

    15. Re:Also by Bigby · · Score: 2

      It depends on what your definition of is is.

    16. Re:Also by Hatta · · Score: 1

      Unless you're Janet Napolitano, John Pistole, Michael Chertoff, etc.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    17. Re:Also by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What the hell, Genghis Khan. The opinions of our international allies are worthless?

      The goodwill of our traditional allies is important. We leverage those relationships to our economic and military advantage, (obviously) more often than you realize.

    18. Re:Also by RabidReindeer · · Score: 1

      One of the ugliest buildings in the world was removed, and a lot of stock brokers and lawyers died. How is this not a good thing?

      Because, unfortunately, so did a few computer geeks. I found this out when I sent an email to a guy who'd been active on a project of mine and his widow wrote back.

    19. Re:Also by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fareed Zakaria of CNN is accused of plagiarism, not murder.

    20. Re:Also by cpu6502 · · Score: 2

      >>>Apart from the fact that nothing good has come of 9/11

      From the point of view of those who watched their parents die, or their kids blown up, or starved to death by American bombs/blockades then 9/11 event was a "good" thing. To them it was the equivalent of what the Hiroshima bombing was for our 1940s-era ancestors. A moment of triumph & revenge for the deaths that happened years earlier.

      --
      My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
    21. Re:Also by icebike · · Score: 1

      Except the point being argued is that the lack of attribution made the article feel more localized. The engagement of people not in Boston and Philadelphia by making it feel like it was their war too was a major reason for the success of the War. The argument here is about how much of a role unattributed news played a role in bringing the War to the locals.

      Feel more localized when reporting incidents two or 6 states (colonies) away? Really?

      As often as not "correspondents" in those days were exactly that, people who wrote LETTERS to
      various news papers as a way of making a living. They would have dozens of little newspapers
      signed up for a few cents per letter, and would include clippings (often of their own stories) from
      the newspapers where they were located in their mailings. Often these were reporters
      for local papers who expanded their own income by serving remote papers. As often as not
      they were the ones who wrote these articles in the first place.

      Its hard to call that plagiarism, when it was tacitly acknowledged among the several papers
      involved.

      Attribution of news is a relatively recent trend. Even as late as the Civil war reports were often
      not attributed.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    22. Re:Also by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow...how did you know that my neighbors are republicans?

    23. Re:Also by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      It was replaced with an even equally ugly building that doesn't even have the mitigating factor of having been designed to achieve superlative height. It will achieve one superlative, however. We are nearing the completion of the largest ever monument to capitulation....

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    24. Re:Also by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      It means that you cannot interpret the rules literally and similarly in every case.

      There is no reason to interpret the rules about plagiarism differently, despite the claims of this article. The fact that many papers carried the news is what "fanned the flames" etc., not that they carried the news without attribution.

      Or do you really imagine that the flames were fanned the most by the fact that people were reading unattributed material, not that the material was written from the start to be inflammatory and heavily slanted against the British overlords?

      This is another example of trying to make some action today seem more reasonable "because someone respected long ago for some other reason did it". It's like lesbians trying to convince everyone that lesbianism is great because Leonardo DaVinci was a lesbian. Uhhh, so what?

    25. Re:Also by operagost · · Score: 2

      No, the difference is between the tyranny of monarchies or oligarchies versus a democratic republic. In a democratic republic, treason is literally defined in our Constitution, the law of the land. In most other forms of government, treason is whatever the people in charge say it is.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    26. Re:Also by Raenex · · Score: 1

      A moment of triumph & revenge for the deaths that happened years earlier.

      Which resulted in more bombs and deaths. I hope they enjoyed their victory party.

    27. Re:Also by Golddess · · Score: 1

      It's like lesbians trying to convince everyone that lesbianism is great because Leonardo DaVinci was a lesbian.

      Leonardo DaVinci came from the island of Lesbos? Because that's the only definition of "lesbian" that I can think of that could possibly apply to him.

      --
      "I'm not sure I like the fugnutish tone you used in your post!" -RogL (608926)-
    28. Re:Also by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Leonardo DaVinci came from the island of Lesbos? Because that's the only definition of "lesbian" that I can think of that could possibly apply to him.

      Yeah, you just keep believing the lies the Patriarchy want you to believe.
      Womyn know the truth!

    29. Re:Also by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's like lesbians trying to convince everyone that lesbianism is great because Leonardo DaVinci was a lesbian. Uhhh, so what?

      Oh, I really, really hope Leonardo da Vinci was a lesbian ... cross-dressing *and* gay! Be enough to convince me ...

    30. Re:Also by Obfuscant · · Score: 1
      A person from the island of Lesbos would be a Lesbian with an upper case L.

      That wooshing sound was the point. It doesn't have to make sense, or matter in any way, when someone tries to justify modern behaviour based on some long-dead person's newly discovered alleged similar behaviour. The obvious example of the fallacy of the "the hero X did Y so Y must be ok" argument is "Thomas Jefferson owned slaves...".

    31. Re:Also by JockTroll · · Score: 0

      Genghis Khan? I take it as a compliment. Wholesale slaughtery apart, he was a successful military and political leader who favored meritocracy over birthrights and other meaningless amenities. Guess what, microbe, your allies are not your allies out of "goodwill", they are because a) they get an advantage out of being your allies or b) they know if they stop being that they'll become targets. Mostly, it's a unhealthy mix of the two. Goodwill has nothing to do with international politics, which is backstabbing at its lowest.

      --
      Geeks are so full of shit that "beating the crap out of them" takes a whole new meaning.
    32. Re:Also by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

      Except that murder actually helped win the war while plagiarism just helped keep writers/journalists unemployed during the war.
      Saying plagiarism helped win the war is like saying my great-great-great grandfather (who we are assuming was alive during that period) helped win the war since he existed during that period of time even though he was not in the same country nor did he have anything to do with it.

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    33. Re:Also by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

      And no good people died in the American Revolution?

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    34. Re:Also by mjr167 · · Score: 1

      Treason is defined as betraying the current government. If you successfully overthrow the current government and establish yourself as the new government, then you are no longer a traitor but a patriot. I assure you that most tyrannical monarchs also believe that they rule in the best interest of the state. Both Stalin and Hitler believed that their actions were for the greater good. King George believed that the policy in the new world was for the good of England and consequently also in the best interests of the colonists.

      The Rosenburgs believed that they were acting for the greater good by spying for the Russians. However, they were executed as traitors. If Russia had won the cold war, they would have been hailed as heroes- true patriots and even martyrs. However, the Russians lost and the American government did not undergo a radical regime change. Thus they get to be traitors. History is always written by the winners.

    35. Re:Also by JBaustian · · Score: 1

      The Rosenbergs were convicted of conspiracy to commit espionage during a time of war, which is not the same as treason. Treason has a very limited definition under US law. The Rosenbergs were traitors, loosely defined, but it was easier to convict them for espionage.

      It is probably a good thing that we do not often charge people as traitors, even if we frequently accuse them. Aaron Burr was undoubtedly a traitor, but he was acquitted because there were no witnesses willing to testify that they observed specific acts.

      If we took treason seriously, we'd probably have to hang a great many Democrats. It would be very messy.

    36. Re:Also by alexo · · Score: 1

      No, the difference is between the tyranny of monarchies or oligarchies versus a democratic republic. In a democratic republic, treason is literally defined in our Constitution, the law of the land. In most other forms of government, treason is whatever the people in charge say it is.

      So when the "person in charge" maintains kill lists and authorizes drone strikes against citizens that were not convicted of treason (or any other crime for that matter) by a court of law, he must be, by definition, a tyrant?

  2. Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by Cigarra · · Score: 2

    So, two and half centuries ago, there were quite different values in place. What's so shocking about it?

    --
    I don't have a sig.
    1. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by InEnacWeTrust · · Score: 1, Interesting

      So, two and half centuries ago, there were quite different values in place. What's so shocking about it?

      The shocking thing is that you guys still carry on with a constitution written at that time although your values have changed and large part of it are now so obsolete that it requires NRA money to keep it in place. While modern countries change theirs every generation or so to keep up with how we evolve.

    2. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by Sarten-X · · Score: 3, Interesting

      But it's the American Revolution! This insightful revelation shows that the Founding Fathers not only approved plagiarism, but that it was vitally important to their cause! Obviously, our modern politics are far out of line, having been corrupted by this silly "evolution of society" thing. This should be a clear message for Ron Paul and other politicians who actually care about the Founding Fathers' ideals that all copyright should be abandoned because it didn't matter in 1776.

      It's perfectly clear that journalists back then had far higher ethical standards than modern journalists, because they wrote about the American Revolution! That immediately clears any doubt of their honesty, right? They wouldn't have copied something just because they could get away with it, but rather they did so out of a pure desire to spread the gospel of democracy.

      Next week, we'll see the full story on how cholera was an effective means of population control, how slavery protected American companies from labor unions, and how an expensive and slow postal system encouraged only meaningful correspondence.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    3. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The founders were very smart - very learned people and wrote the document specifically to last and to endure.

      "NRA money" Nice cheap shot. The NRA consists of over 4.3 million US citizens so when you say NRA money you must replace this with the phrase "that it requires the money of 4.3 million citizens to keep it in place". Works pretty well for me.

    4. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by HungryHobo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Ya, that freedom of speech bit is sooo out of date. we definitly shouldn't include that in the next version.

      oh and the thing about police not being able to go into your house whenever they want: gotta get rid of that. to stop terrorists.

      Oh and the whole right to a jury trial? Pfff. just expensive. Lets do away with that and trust the upstanding police to simply not arrest anyone who they're not certain is guilty.

      after all. only the sections I agree with should still count.

    5. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by smooth+wombat · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's called stability. The Founding Fathers wrote the Constitution in such a way that it didn't need to be changed every few years while at the same allowing for the option to change it as needed.

      Our values haven't changed that much. We still want our freedom from religion as well as being able to practice or not without the government telling us otherwise (well, the ones that know history at least), we still want the government to keep out of our bedroom (at least those that understand the Constitution was a limitation on governmental powers, unlike Roberts and Scalia), we still want our free speech, we still want equality for all people (except for those who think how a person is born limits those rights), and so on.

      I'll take a system which is stable over the centuries rather than having to worry if the next guy who gets in office will scrap everything and declare themselves dictator for life (or in my case, benevolent dictator until such time as the people can get their heads out of their asses).

      --
      We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    6. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by SternisheFan · · Score: 2

      What is Plagiarism? Many people think of plagiarism as copying another's work, or borrowing someone else's original ideas. But terms like "copying" and "borrowing" can disguise the seriousness of the offense: According to the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary, to "plagiarize" means to steal and pass off (the ideas or words of another) as one's own to use (another's production) without crediting the source to commit literary theft to present as new and original an idea or product derived from an existing source. In other words, plagiarism is an act of fraud. It involves both stealing someone else's work and lying about it afterward. But can words and ideas really be stolen? According to U.S. law, the answer is yes. The expression of original ideas is considered intellectual property, and is protected by copyright laws, just like original inventions. Almost all forms of expression fall under copyright protection as long as they are recorded in some way (such as a book or a computer file). All of the following are considered plagiarism: turning in someone else's work as your own copying words or ideas from someone else without giving credit failing to put a quotation in quotation marks giving incorrect information about the source of a quotation changing words but copying the sentence structure of a source without giving credit copying so many words or ideas from a source that it makes up the majority of your work whether you give credit or not (see our fair use section) http://www.plagiarism.org/plag_article_what_is_plagiarism.html Plagiarism can be avoided, however, by citing sources. Simply acknowledge material has been borrowed, and providing your audience with the information necessary, that is usually enough to prevent plagiarism. See our section on citation for more

    7. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by Hatta · · Score: 3, Interesting

      These days we call it syndication, and it's used to quash dissent, not encourage it.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    8. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by Yprime · · Score: 1

      4.3 million out of 300 million? Isn't that a tyranny of the minority? The founding fathers were no gods, the constitution is a very flawed document. The whole slavery sections sort of stand out as a limit to any of their perceived greatness. Those who had slaves were even more tyrannical to them than the British crown ever was to them.

    9. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by BlearyTruth · · Score: 1

      Tyranny? How so, the NRA does not control anything.

      You clearly don't understand the document anyway based on your comments on slavery. Why do you believe the 3/5's clause was put there?

    10. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by fustakrakich · · Score: 3, Insightful

      4.3 million out of 300 million? Isn't that a tyranny of the minority?

      No, it's the minority protecting their rights.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    11. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by BlearyTruth · · Score: 0

      Quite so. Democracy is three serial rapists and a young cheerleader voting on evening activities.

      Aren't hippies all for minority rights anyway? Oh no! Does not compute!

      "The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." -Ayn Rand

    12. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      how slavery protected American companies from labor unions

      No, that would be the Chinese

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_American_history#Other_occupations

      During the economic crises of the 1870s, factory owners were often glad that the migrants were content with the low wages given. The Chinese took the bad wages, because their wives and children lived in China where the cost of living was low. As they were classified as foreigners they were excluded from joining American trade unions, and so they formed their own Chinese organizations (called "guilds") that represented their interests with the employers. The American trade unionists were nevertheless still wary as the Chinese workers were willing to work for their employers for relatively low wages and incidentally acted as strikebreakers thereby running counter to the interests of the trade unions. In fact, many employers used the threat of importing Chinese strikebreakers as a means to prevent or break up strikes, which caused further resentment against the Chinese. A notable incident occurred in 1870, when 75 young men from China were hired to replace striking shoe workers in North Adams, Massachusetts. Nevertheless, these young men had no idea that they had been brought from San Francisco by the superintendent of the shoe factory to act as strikebreakers at their destination. This incident provided the trade unions with propaganda, later repeatedly cited, calling for the immediate and total exclusion of the Chinese. This particular controversy slackened somewhat as attention focused on the economic crises in 1875 when the majority of cigar and boots manufacturing companies went under. Mainly, just the textile industry still employed Chinese workers in large numbers. In 1876, in response to the rising anti-Chinese hysteria, both major political parties included Chinese exclusion in their campaign platforms as a way to win votes by taking advantage of the nation's industrial crisis. Rather than directly confronting the divisive problems such as class conflict, economic depression, and rising unemployment, this helped put the question of Chinese immigration and contracted Chinese workers on the national agenda and eventually paved way for the era's most racist legislation, the Chinese Exclusion Act in 1882.

      I especially loved the part how both major parties back in the glorious Gilded Age included Chinese exclusion in their platforms. GO GO libertarian non-interfering government of 19th century US!

    13. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by msauve · · Score: 2

      I knew someone would bring this up, since the article is obviously a veiled defense of Fareed Zakaria's plagarized editorial extolling gun control.

      BTW, self defense is a natural right, our Constitution simply codifies it. Calling the loss of your rights "evolving" is just Orwellian Newspeak. There are a few ex-despots displaced by the Arab Spring who certainly wish they had more effective gun control.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    14. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by jpapon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Why do you believe the 3/5's clause was put there?

      As a compromise to get the South to sign the document, while at the same time diminishing the Southerners ability to control the House and Executive simply because they bought/bred more slaves?

      It goes to show how flawed the Founding Fathers were; they thought of their slaves as people when it came to being represented, but not people when deciding on their representation. Oh, and you know that whole thing about being free and equal? That only applied to your if you were white (and had a penis).

      How can there possibly be any doubt that the fallibility of the Founding Fathers? Even THEY knew they would get some things wrong... that's why you can amend the Constitution.

      --
      -- Let us endeavor so to live that when we pass even the undertaker shall be sorry. -- M. Twain
    15. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by JockTroll · · Score: 1

      Quite so. Democracy is three serial rapists and a young cheerleader voting on evening activities.

      Freedom is when the cheerleader has a gun. And anyone who believes the US Constitution is obsolete should think twice: 1st, 4th and 5th Amendment rights could be considered "obsolete" in this wimpish age of GASP TERR-OW-REESM and assorted pantcrapocracy.

      --
      Geeks are so full of shit that "beating the crap out of them" takes a whole new meaning.
    16. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by jpapon · · Score: 0
      Ugh. So many typos... this subject just gets me worked up.

      Many of the Founding Fathers were racist, hypocritical bigots. Thinking otherwise is just deliberately blinding oneself to the facts of history. You can justify their beliefs by saying they didn't know any better, or that it was just the times, but don't deny that many of them were racist bigots, and by logical extension, completely misguided concerning some moral issues.

      --
      -- Let us endeavor so to live that when we pass even the undertaker shall be sorry. -- M. Twain
    17. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by jpapon · · Score: 0, Troll

      we still want equality for all people

      Still? The Founding Fathers didn't want equality for all people. Many of them owned slaves. They could have included universal suffrage in the original Constitution. They didn't, because many of them were racist sexist hypocrites.

      "No taxation without representation! (unless you're black) (or a native) (or sans-penis)" Give me a break. People need to stop worshiping the Founding Fathers. They were men, and they were wrong about many issues.

      --
      -- Let us endeavor so to live that when we pass even the undertaker shall be sorry. -- M. Twain
    18. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by BlearyTruth · · Score: 0

      But you must explain why the south wanted slaves to count as 1 vote but would not have allowed them to vote. The founders were against slavery but knew they needed the south to remain in the Union. The document was specifically designed such that slavery would not survive and they knew this was the best that they would be able to do.

      You are wrong 'they thought of their slaves as people when it came to being represented, but not people when deciding on their representation', this ignores the realitty of the time. I suggest you do some reading.

      http://www.monticello.org/site/jefferson/quotations-slavery-and-emancipation

      Oh and by the way, which party has supported more slavery than the other?

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6iWmmTI8kY

      Bwahahahahaha

    19. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://tdarkcabal.blogspot.com/

    20. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by jpapon · · Score: 2
      The Founders were against slavery? Then why did so many of them own slaves?

      The document was specifically designed such that slavery would not survive and they knew this was the best that they would be able to do.

      This is a bunch of revisionist bullshit.

      SOME of the founders didn't want slavery. Many of them did. Many of them owned slaves.

      The founders did not give women the right to vote. They did not give blacks the right to vote. They only gave white males (people like themselves) the right to vote.

      If you can't see how flawed and hypocritical that made them, well, I don't know what to tell you.

      --
      -- Let us endeavor so to live that when we pass even the undertaker shall be sorry. -- M. Twain
    21. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by BlearyTruth · · Score: 1

      Making an assertion does not constitute winning an argument sir. You must present supporting evidence and logic.

      Many were slaveowners indeed, many who opposed the revolution were as well. Does this make these men racist? Hardly.

      The founders were wise and well educated men and clearly valued all human life. You would do well to learn more about them, yet you sit there behind your keyboard and throw unsupported attacks on them from a wrong position.

      For shame.

    22. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by Dog-Cow · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If the Founding Fathers had insisted on universal suffrage and no slavery, there would not be a United States of America for them to have been Founding Fathers of. You are projecting your values and complete inflexibility on issues you consider important on to people trying to form a cohesive federation of States with very different interests.

    23. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by BlearyTruth · · Score: 0

      Again, calling something bullshit does not make it so, no matter how loudly you say it.

      Public school education huh? I'm sorry.

    24. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by jpapon · · Score: 2
      How can you throw a bunch of Jefferson quotes at me? He was the most hypocritical of the bunch!

      The man owned hundreds of slaves, and yet claimed to be against the peculiar institution!

      Jefferson certainly engenders respect for many of his deeds, but when it comes to slavery, I don't know how the man slept at night.

      --
      -- Let us endeavor so to live that when we pass even the undertaker shall be sorry. -- M. Twain
    25. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by BlearyTruth · · Score: 1

      Well said, and I would add to that the tenth.

      People do not generally understand the Bill of Rights, these amendments were critical to the eventual ratification of the Constitution in whole, without them there would have been no agreement. The states at the time were nations themselves and would not have given these rights away without the ten amendments.

      The document must be read in it's entirety, not picked apart and selectively used.

    26. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by jpapon · · Score: 1

      You are projecting your values and complete inflexibility on issues you consider important on to people trying to form a cohesive federation of States with very different interests.

      No, I'm just saying that many of the Founding Fathers were wrong about some things. I understand that they did what they had to do in order to form a union. Then again, the very fact that they had to compromise on the slavery issue proves that some of them felt so strongly about their right to own slaves that losing it was a deal-breaker.

      I have no respect for men who want freedom from tyranny for themselves, and yet are willing to fight for their right to keep other men in chains.

      --
      -- Let us endeavor so to live that when we pass even the undertaker shall be sorry. -- M. Twain
    27. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by BlearyTruth · · Score: 0

      For the last time sir, I have presented a whole lot more than you who has nothing but attacks and vitriol.

      And I will waste no more of my time on you, as clearly you are not here for any sort of discussion.

    28. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by jpapon · · Score: 1, Insightful
      It doesn't make sense to make statements like "Under the law of nature, all men are born free, every one comes into the world with a right to his own person, which includes the liberty of moving and using it at his own. This is what is called personal liberty, and is given him by the author of nature, because necessary for his own sustenance. " (Thomas Jefferson) while also owning slaves.

      or blacks or irresponsible groups like women or landless men

      How can you call that logical? You're broadly saying that women and landless men are irresponsible, and shouldn't be able to have a say in their government.

      I didn't know that having a penis, being white, and being born into money made you intelligent. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

      --
      -- Let us endeavor so to live that when we pass even the undertaker shall be sorry. -- M. Twain
    29. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by jpapon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Again, calling something bullshit does not make it so, no matter how loudly you say it.

      No, but the fact that it's bullshit does make it bullshit. Were many of the Founding Fathers against slavery? Sure. Were many of them slave owners who were prepared to abandon the revolution if they had to give up their slaves? Also true.

      Public school education huh? I'm sorry.

      What? I don't even know how to respond to that sort of ridiculous statement. Sure, I went to public school. I also spent two years going to a private school in France, and have degrees from Stanford and the United State Naval Academy. What's your point?

      --
      -- Let us endeavor so to live that when we pass even the undertaker shall be sorry. -- M. Twain
    30. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by jpapon · · Score: 1
      You linked a bunch of Jefferson quotes as proof that the Founding Fathers were against slavery.

      Jefferson owned slaves. What do you call someone who says one thing, but does the exact opposite? If Jefferson was truly against slavery, he would have freed his slaves and paid them wages.

      Instead, he made bold statements about the nature of man and freedom, while at the same time keeping hundreds of men, women, and children in bondage.

      --
      -- Let us endeavor so to live that when we pass even the undertaker shall be sorry. -- M. Twain
    31. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by Wild_dog! · · Score: 2

      1. Recess appointments are constitutional. Article II section 2. Even George Washington had a recess appointment.
      2 The dream act hasn't been put in place by anyone. The president is just doing what every president since Reagan's Amnesty has done. He just made it a political football by by stating so publicly to score political points with a constituent group.
      3. No insurer should be allowed to deny reasonable medical care based upon religious ideology if they are participating in government programs. This is also in the constitution.

    32. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by oldmac31310 · · Score: 1

      Why are you conflating the war of independence and the civil war?

      --
      http://www.acetonestudio.com
    33. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by JorDan+Clock · · Score: 1

      How is forcing health insurance providers to provide coverage of birth control a violation of free speech?

    34. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by oldmac31310 · · Score: 1

      comma key broken?

      --
      http://www.acetonestudio.com
    35. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      [...] declare themselves dictator for life (or in my case, benevolent dictator until such time as the people can get their heads out of their asses).

      ... so dictator for life?

    36. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have you ever read the First Amendment? It's about a lot more than just freedom of speech.

    37. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by BlearyTruth · · Score: 0

      How conflating, these events are both part of our history, the one leading to the other.

      Why, do you believe we should ignore part of our history? This makes no sense.

    38. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by jpapon · · Score: 0

      Many were slaveowners indeed ... Does this make these men racist? Hardly.

      What? A person who believes white men should be free while black men should be kept in chains is exactly racist. That does not need to be proven, it is by definition. Racism may have been acceptable at the time, but that doesn't change what it is.

      The founders were wise and well educated men and clearly valued all human life.

      They may have valued the lives of their slaves, but only in the sense that their slaves had monetary value. The only slaves that Jefferson ever freed were his own half-black love-children. If that isn't the sign of a conflicted, flawed man, I don't know what is.

      Stop putting the founders up on some pedestal as if they had no flaws. Of course they did. For some of them, one of those flaws was racism. That is simply a matter of fact; they believed that white men were inherently superior to black men. This is how they justified their ownership of human beings.

      They were also sexist; they believed men were superior to women, as evidenced by their denying women the right to vote.

      Many of the founders were sexist and racist. These are facts. To deny them is to deny the very definitions of the words. This is not an attack on the founders, it is merely seeing them for what they were; men of their times.

      --
      -- Let us endeavor so to live that when we pass even the undertaker shall be sorry. -- M. Twain
    39. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by dryeo · · Score: 1

      We're talking about a bunch of land speculators who revolted when their King wanted to treat all his subjects equally. Or perhaps you don't consider native Americans to be people?
      The constitution like all good compromises was disliked by most all the signers and it was expected it would be replaced by a better document within a couple of decades.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    40. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by BlearyTruth · · Score: 1

      You really are being obtuse. Listen to me, "Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11!". You are judging these men using the standards of today, this is ignorant.

      I do not condone slavery nor do I excuse those founders who supported it, but you cannot escape the fact that given the conditions at the time they clearly were against it and worked to put it to an end, which is exactly what happened. You act as if none of this happened.

      Why did we have slave and free states at all? Why did this eventually lead to a war among the states? You cannot ignore these facts, nor can you dismiss the fact that these things were different in these times. The same goes for womens rights.

      You clearly aren't going to change your mind, I am done with you.

    41. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by Hatta · · Score: 1

      Our values haven't changed that much. We still want our freedom from religion as well as being able to practice or not without the government telling us otherwise (well, the ones that know history at least), we still want the government to keep out of our bedroom (at least those that understand the Constitution was a limitation on governmental powers, unlike Roberts and Scalia), we still want our free speech, we still want equality for all people (except for those who think how a person is born limits those rights), and so on

      If you actually look at America, you'll find that most Americans fall into one of those exceptions. By and large Americans don't actually value life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness. This is a country of authoritarians.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    42. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by dryeo · · Score: 1

      The constitution was ratified and came into force in 1789 while the bill of rights was added afterwards in 1791. Note also the bill of rights was only applicable to the federal government which meant it did not apply to the governments of the States.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    43. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1. Of course, however it is not the executive that determines when congress is in recess. You understand this don't you?

      http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/obamas-recess-appointments-are-unconstitutional/2012/01/05/gIQAnWRfdP_story.html

      2. Sure buddy.

      http://articles.cnn.com/2012-08-15/us/us_immigration-deferred-deportation_1_immigrants-line-immigration-laws-immigration-services

      3. You are way off here. Read the first amendment. "free exercise of religion".

      So I will await word that you have called the WH to complain, or for you to admit you have no principles.

    44. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by minchazo · · Score: 1

      In the late 1700's, blacks were inferior to whites. People believed that slavery was better than freedom for blacks due to their brutish nature. The kind white masters could civilize them, see?
      By today's standards, all of those statements are blatantly racist. In their own time, they were mainstream belief.
      You're criticizing men who (as a group, if not individually) were more enlightened than the society they lived in because they haven't had the 200 years of research and knowledge that you do.
      Have you never read 'Frankenstein,' 'Treasure Island,' 'Little Black Sambo,' or other books from that era?

    45. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      The shocking thing is that you guys still carry on with a constitution written at that time although your values have changed and large part of it are now so obsolete that it requires NRA money to keep it in place.

      Our constitution has also been changed many times in the last two centuries. In fact, the bill of rights was the first thing to be changed about it. Later changes outlawed slavery, gave the vote to women, outlawed alcohol and then legalized it again, and so on.

      But it's not an easy document to change, and that's a feature, not a bug. A change requires first, a 2/3rds vote in both houses of congress, then signed by the President, then agreed to by 2/3rds of the state legislatures.

    46. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by Nadaka · · Score: 1

      Indeed, the right to bear arms is just about the only issue on which I agree with the "conservatives".

      The right to own and use arms for sporting and self defense is a natural right and does not carry an undue risk to public safety when done responsibly.

      And quite frankly, I really do not understand why more liberals and progressives don't embrace the right to bear arms.

    47. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by jpapon · · Score: 1

      You are judging these men using the standards of today, this is ignorant.

      Yet we are told that we should accept their Constitution as if it were infallible by the standards of today. I'm merely pointing out that these men were wrong about some things (womens rights, slavery, how they treated Native Americans), so maybe they were wrong about (or simply did not consider) others as well (such as health-care being provided by the government).

      If the founders did not believe women had the right to vote, why should we care about their opinion on modern issues such as health-care? Clearly they were right about some things (free speech), but wrong about others (womens rights, slavery). Maybe, based on what we've learned in the past 240ish years, we could write a better Constitution today? Is that so unreasonable?

      --
      -- Let us endeavor so to live that when we pass even the undertaker shall be sorry. -- M. Twain
    48. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by Nadaka · · Score: 1

      They had a different definition for the word "people", that isn't the same as them not wanting equality for people.

      Just because they had some serious flaws doesn't mean everything they did was crap.

    49. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by jpapon · · Score: 1
      It's not that I find their actions unreasonable when considered in context. It's that we're told that the Constitution written by these men is the pinnacle of everything a governing document should be, and that (more or less) it is right about everything.

      We've learned quite a bit in the past 240ish years... is it so unreasonable to think that we could write a better Constitution now?

      Why do we believe that a bunch of slave owners knew more about equality, freedom, and governance than modern men?

      Why do we allow the founders, who didn't even think women should have the right to vote, to influence our decisions on the role of government in health-care?

      --
      -- Let us endeavor so to live that when we pass even the undertaker shall be sorry. -- M. Twain
    50. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On the other hand, during the early antebellum period there was virtually so few free blacks as to be a rounding error, especially in Virginia. Is it entirely possible that Jefferson wasn't so dichotomous? Maybe he truly felt how his words represent, but yet felt the need to keep slaves, perhaps somehow for their own well being? I mean, let's face it, even if you were a freed slave in 1770s-1800's Virginia, unless you were educated and owned property and had prospects, you still might be taken in as property of another slave owner (who was perhaps not so nice) and the law wouldn't care one bit!

      Should they have been paid wages, and treated like human beings, yes, I would agree with that. But we weren't around then to know what it was like, or how he or his contemporaries treated these people.

    51. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by filthpickle · · Score: 1

      But if you don't believe that birth control is moral then nobody is forcing you to use it. Actually, it seems to me they are not allowing the insurance companies to decide this....but the individuals. Unless I am missing something I am as curious as the GP.

    52. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by parkinglot777 · · Score: 1

      To me, you nail it when you said "people believed" at the time. I agree that it is the belief in 1700s that having blacks as slaves is better than letting them loose anywhere in the country because the belief benefits those who own slaves. It is normal for humans to take their own side.

      However, many people still think in one node, and convince themselves that everything said by Founding Fathers is exactly the same as their goal by applying their own belief to it. How could one know exactly the full meaning of what they said? How could one know exactly what they were thinking in their head? The declaration of independent is similar to laws to me. It is written as broad as it could be. I know that it cannot and should not be specific, but one should understand that the one must not interpret in one way or the other. Too bad, the way people interpret it nowadays more likely to benefit themselves on way or the other.

    53. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by filthpickle · · Score: 1

      This is a good point, And a difficult one to discuss, at least in the US. At that time (and for a shamefully long time after it) the common belief was that black people couldn't take care of themselves. They were viewed either as livestock or like a (working) pet. Today, this thought is reprehensible...but it was a commonly held belief then. The GGP makes a good point too. Nobody would have agreed to it if they had demanded womens rights and an end to slavery. It just wouldn't have happened.

    54. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by BeanThere · · Score: 1

      Sigh .. when will this retarded "the Founding Fathers weren't perfect, therefore we can change the Constitution however we want" meme die already? The only thing that has (or should have) bearing on whether or not the Constitution can be 'amended' is whether the change violates individual rights or protects individual rights (i.e. is immoral, or rationally morally sound). Strangely the people spreading this meme seem to be pretty much universally doing so in order to try build new rights violations into the Constitution.

    55. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by BeanThere · · Score: 1

      Are you honestly trying to push everyone to censor Jefferson quotes? Seriously? Talk about making your agenda obvious.

    56. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Slashdot, more so than any other internet forum I've seen, is full of people who have no idea they are standing on the shoulders of giants.

      Hear that, guys who just landed a robot on Mars? You are a bunch of idiots because we think we know a btter way to update its firmware.

    57. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      So, you believe, that if it was not for the NRA, a Constitutional Amendment overriding the Second Amendment would have been passed? I haven't even seen anybody propose such an Amendment. Or, do you believe that if it wasn't for the NRA, Congress and the Courts would be ignoring the Second Amendment? If the latter, what is the point of having a Constitution which limits the power of government?
      As to "modern countries" changing their laws every couple of years, are you referring to Germany, which less than 75 years ago had a government which strove to exterminate everyone who was not of appropriate lineage? Or perhaps Japan, which at that same time attempted to enslave the rest of Asia? Or perhaps Sweden, which went along with Germany to avoid being invaded (and perhaps because they didn't think what Germany was doing was all that bad)?
      There are only a handful of countries around the world that were even countries when the U.S. was founded, let alone still have the same form of government.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    58. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is very simple, the state is not forcing the insurer to provide the coverage the state is forcing the Church to provide it through an insurer, the insurance vehicle is irrelevant. Clearly this is a violation of "free exercise of religion".

      Now again I ask, I will await word that you have called the WH to complain, or for you to admit you have no principles.

    59. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      because 1) most people aren't responsible and 2) if you actually need a firearm for self defense, then there is something really wrong with the society that needs fixing in first place.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    60. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by filthpickle · · Score: 1

      Ah, I see. It's because the church can't just trust it's members to follow what they claim to believe in. Principles....gotcha.

    61. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by Maxwell'sSilverLART · · Score: 1

      1. Recess appointments are constitutional. Article II section 2. Even George Washington had a recess appointment.
      2 The dream act hasn't been put in place by anyone. The president is just doing what every president since Reagan's Amnesty has done. He just made it a political football by by stating so publicly to score political points with a constituent group.
      3. No insurer should be allowed to deny reasonable medical care based upon religious ideology if they are participating in government programs. This is also in the constitution.

      Go back and read it again, this time for comprehension. I'll even boldface the important part:

      * Making unconstitutional recess appointments by declaring congress in recess when it was not
      Article I, Section 4 says "Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings..." and "Neither House, during the Session of Congress, shall, without the Consent of the other, adjourn for more than three days...." Please explain to the class how those clauses give the President the power to determine whether the Senate is in recess.

      * violating First Amendment protections by forcing all insurers to provide birth control
      Please explain to the class how selling insurance constitutes "participating in government programs."

      --
      Moderate drunk! It's more fun that way!
    62. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by Maxwell'sSilverLART · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This is a good point, And a difficult one to discuss, at least in the US. At that time (and for a shamefully long time after it) the common belief was that black people couldn't take care of themselves. They were viewed either as livestock or like a (working) pet. Today, this thought is reprehensible...but it was a commonly held belief then.

      Exactly. The modern view is that nobody can take care of himself, and needs a government nanny to look after him.

      --
      Moderate drunk! It's more fun that way!
    63. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by Maxwell'sSilverLART · · Score: 1

      ...then agreed to by 2/3rds of the state legislatures.

      3/4 of the state legislatures, but otherwise, spot on.

      --
      Moderate drunk! It's more fun that way!
    64. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "(such as health-care being provided by the government)"

      Careful, your agenda is showing.

    65. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by Nadaka · · Score: 1

      Fixing society is a difficult problem that will take time. Until then, it is important to be armed so that you not powerless to resist those who want society to become more broken and will victimize you in order to do it.

      I'm not against ALL forms of gun regulation. Reasonable regulation targeted directly at making gun owners more responsible is acceptable. But bans? And arbitrary ignorance based reactionary bullshit? Nope.

      And on the plus side, even if society is fixed to the point where having a gun self defense isn't even a remote necessity, having a gun still isn't a bad thing. It isn't any more harmful to own a gun than it is to own a can of paint, even though I could drown puppies in that can of paint if I wanted to. It is what you do that matters, not what you have the potential to do.

    66. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank you. I see so much nonsense in these forums and when I speak up I am attacked, it is a pleasure to see so many reasonable responses in this thread.

      I note that in all these responses only the peripheral issues are being discussed. *No one* has attempted to answer the central question I am asking above, "What will you do when the executive in power does not agree with your agenda? If the limits in presidential authority - in fact limits on power of the entirety of government are not defined by the Constitution, then where I ask are the limits? How far will they go? How much power is enough?"

      Are we a nation of men or a nation of laws?

    67. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The only slaves that Jefferson ever freed were his own half-black love-children.

      Not true, of course. He freed the slaves he owned which had saleable skills; for instance, a man who was a quite skilled furniture maker (engage your brain a bit and think about how he got that way). Interestingly, Jefferson used several pieces made by that slave in his home. He paid him for them. He also paid his slaves overtime, if they worked longer hours than his paid laborers (which generally they did not). He also furnished them living quarters that were high enough quality that during his presidential campaign it was pointed to as proof of an unhinged mind.

      Did that change the fact that he owned slaves? No. But you might also want to consider that had he divested himself of slaves early in his career, you likely would never have heard of him. That's just the economic reality of the south at the time. He also nearly destroyed his career on several occasions trying to abolish slavery, and in fact wrote the first laws in the colonies limiting it.

      Before his death, he predicted that America would fail because he believed that no nation which allowed slavery could survive in the long term. Did you know (probably not) that when Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation, he said he was finishing the work Jefferson had started? Oh, well; Lincoln obviously wasn't gifted with your keen intellect and understanding of history.

      No, you go ahead and keep patting yourself on the back about how cool and progressive you are for bashing Jefferson; you are obviously the superior human being. Just don't actually, you know, educate yourself on any of the things you spew about; you might find things aren't nearly as black and white (pun not intended) as you'd like to believe.

      That is simply a matter of fact; they believed that white men were inherently superior to black men.

      Some did. Most of the men referred to as the "Framers" and "Founding Fathers" today did not. And yes, some twit will invariably trot out some of Jefferson's writings in which he appears to say so, and as always leave out the next paragraph where he explicitly disclaims the idea. Sigh.

      They were also sexist; they believed men were superior to women, as evidenced by their denying women the right to vote.

      I'd really like you to show me where in the Constitution it says women can't vote. I've asked someone that before, and they point out the section (which I doubt you even know exists, since it seems clear you've probably never read the document) which disallows denying men the right to vote; but that's not remotely the same thing. In fact, you might realize (who're we kidding? You don't have a clue) that the 19th amendment does not grant women the right to vote. It only removes the ability of goverment to suspend it. Why would that be? C'mon, you can do it... that's right, because women already had the right to vote, the goverment was just not allowing it to be exercised. The 19th amendment fixed that.

      Are you also aware that before America became a separate nation, wives were the legal property of their husbands? And those brutes you hate so much didn't carry that through to the new nation... probably just an error on their part? I'm sure they meant to keep that oppression going... or, just maybe, they actually knew what the hell they were doing.

      I know bashing the Founding Fathers is what all the kool kids do these days, and certainly they were imperfect men, but really... try to at least learn a little about what you're talking about first. Or don't; people who do generally end up admiring the hell out of them despite their faults, and marvelling at what they were able to accomplish. It probably wouldn't sit well with you, since you're obviously one of those who believes you can elevate yourself by demeaning the accomplishments of others.

    68. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is not for you to define the beliefs of the church nor that of their followers. Are you not paying attention?

      Now I ask again, I will await word that you have called the WH to complain, or for you to admit you have no principles.

    69. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yet you fight to force all in this society to submit to state run health care against their wishes and best interests. Check.

      No double standard there. /riiiiiiiiiight

    70. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by filthpickle · · Score: 1

      It certainly isn't. Which is why I never did that. Take the last word, I am finished.

    71. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      I am not against firearm ownership as it is, even used to be a target shooter years ago. I am just wary of firearm ownership for everyone, and rather see it as a privilege, akin the privilege to drive a car on a public road. If one wishes to obtain a firearm, one ought to pass a rigorous test, and before the test one ought to show the ability of responsible shooting by proving - for example - air gun shooting at a target range for a year, then moving to shooting .22lr at target range for a year before being allowed to acquire something more deadly.

      And still I don't think firearms used for self defense are a good idea. It is just doctoring on symptoms and because this workaround is available, the actual problem won't ever be fixed.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    72. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by SpanglerIsAGod · · Score: 1

      You will need to submit some evidence of the "against their best interests" part because everything I've seen shows that to be false.

      --
      War doesn't show who is right - just who is left.
    73. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      Article I, Section 4 says "Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings..."

      Which doesn't give the House of Reps the ability to dictate when the Senate is in recess (and recess apointments under Article II are allowed when the Senate, not "the Congress", is in recess.)

      "Neither House, during the Session of Congress, shall, without the Consent of the other, adjourn for more than three days...."

      This restriction makes it explicit that a House may adjourn for less than three days without permission from the other House.

      The current majority of the House of Representatives theory that by exercising its power to prevent the Senate from adjourning for more than 3 days it prevents the Senate from being in recess is pretty hard to justify.

      Please explain to the class how those clauses give the President the power to determine whether the Senate is in recess.

      The President hasn't asserted any special power to do that. Obviously, anyone granted a conditional power has to make a determination that the condition exists when exercising the power. The argument that the determination he has made in this respect is incorrect is, IMO, pretty far from convincing. (It clearly deviates from past practice, but the fact that past Presidents have refrained from exercising the power in certain circumstances doesn't mean that those circumstances were not recesses that allowed the use of the power.)

    74. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well said!

    75. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Excuse me, as you seem unable to read.

      http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/obamas-recess-appointments-are-unconstitutional/2012/01/05/gIQAnWRfdP_story.html

      "Article I, Section 5, of the Constitution states that neither house of Congress may adjourn for more than three days without the consent of the other house. The House of Representatives did not consent to a Senate recess of more than three days at the end of last year, and so the Senate, consistent with the requirements of the Constitution, must have some sort of session every few days.

      The president and anyone else may object that the Senate is conducting “pro forma” sessions, but that does not render them constitutionally meaningless, as some have argued. In fact, the Senate did pass a bill during a supposedly “pro forma” session on Dec. 23, a matter the White House took notice of since the president signed the bill into law. The president cannot pick and choose when he deems a Senate session to be “real.”

      It does not matter one whit that most members of Congress are out of town and allow business to be conducted by their agents under unanimous consent procedures, because ending a session of Congress requires the passage of a formal resolution, which never occurred and could not have occurred without the consent of the House."

    76. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by operagost · · Score: 1

      Even THEY knew they would get some things wrong... that's why you can amend the Constitution.

      Leftists aren't interested in changing the Constitution. It takes too long and requires a vast majority of agreement. If they were serious, the AHCA would have been a Constitutional amendment, because it takes away the default right of the people to choose whether they buy health insurance, whether they go to a doctor, whether they get vaccines, etc.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    77. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by operagost · · Score: 1

      You are quite the ignoramus. The King wanted native Americans to be equal? He had them killed in nice numbers when they fought against him the French and Indian war. The King wanted taxes from the colonists without giving them representation in Parliament. A child in public school knows this was one of the major reasons.

      By the way, the Constitution was already USA v2.0. 1.0 hadn't worked well.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    78. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by operagost · · Score: 1

      It is fallacious to presume that an argument is invalid because it comes from someone you dislike, even if they appear hypocritical. Truth is truth.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    79. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by operagost · · Score: 1

      Protecting your own life is not a privilege. It, along with liberty and property, is a basic human right.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    80. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I need do no such thing, I have experience of socialized medicine myself and also know the system that is in place now.

      This law was not passed with the consent of the governed by any stretch of the imagination. And this is a different discussion for another day anyway.

      http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/2012/06/28/supreme-court-decision-protects-my-health-and-yours/

      "opponents of the act still outnumber supporters by 5 to 14 percentage points."

      "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government"

      And yet jpapon intends fully to force his tyranny upon all of us! Ahh the irony.

      Got it?

    81. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      Note that firearm ownership is not a basic human right. But if all you know is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    82. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Of course the founding fathers were fallable. So am I and so are you, and they were at least wise enough to realize that they were fallable. That's whay they made it changeable.

    83. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by jpapon · · Score: 1
      I'm not trying to censor Jefferson, I'm just saying it's ridiculous to use him as proof the founders weren't racist. Jefferson was obviously racist by his actions, even if he wasn't with his words.

      Why do you think I have an agenda? My agenda is merely to point out that Jefferson was a slave-owner. From his words he clearly believed in the teachings of Locke and Hobbes, but from his actions, he obviously didn't believe he could put them into practice for everybody.

      --
      -- Let us endeavor so to live that when we pass even the undertaker shall be sorry. -- M. Twain
    84. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by jpapon · · Score: 1

      "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government"

      You don't think it's slightly more ironic that the man who wrote those words also owned slaves?

      --
      -- Let us endeavor so to live that when we pass even the undertaker shall be sorry. -- M. Twain
    85. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by jpapon · · Score: 1
      I'm not bashing him, I'm merely stating facts. He owned slaves.

      He COULD have freed his slaves. He COULD have paid them wages just like his paid laborers. He didn't. Perhaps he regretted that he didn't.

      Obviously Jefferson did great things. He also personally kept human beings as slaves.

      Just as Robespierre did great things. He also was personally responsible for the murder of thousands of people.

      I'd really like you to show me where in the Constitution it says women can't vote.

      Right, it also doesn't say that black people can't vote, or that property rights are inviolable, unless you have red skin.

      Of course, the founders were very careful to enumerate their OWN rights quite specifically. When it came to women, black people, native Americans and anyone else who wasn't a white male of European decent, well, they just figured everyone would sort of understand what they meant, right?

      --
      -- Let us endeavor so to live that when we pass even the undertaker shall be sorry. -- M. Twain
    86. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      We still want our freedom from religion as well as being able to practice or not without the government telling us otherwise

      Not "we". You and I, yeah, but there are a lot of atheists who would like to see religion outlawed, and a lot of Christians who would like religion mandatory. The Constitution protects us from both groups.

    87. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by jpapon · · Score: 1

      because it takes away the default right of the people to choose whether they buy health insurance

      No, it doesn't. You just have to pay a tax if you don't want to buy health insurance. This is perfectly reasonable, since if you DO get sick while uninsured, chances are the state is going to wind up paying for you.

      whether they go to a doctor

      Again, nobody is forcing you to go to a doctor.

      whether they get vaccines

      I'm not sure that anyone is forcing you to get vaccines if you're home schooled, but even if they are, this is a matter of public health. By not getting your children vaccinated, you're endangering their lives and potentially the lives of the children around them.

      The government forces me to pay for bombs, and wars I don't like. I don't have the right to refuse to pay for them. Why should you have the right to refuse to pay for healthcare?

      --
      -- Let us endeavor so to live that when we pass even the undertaker shall be sorry. -- M. Twain
    88. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by jpapon · · Score: 1
      Nobody is telling them how to worship. The government is merely saying that they have to provide the option to their employees.

      Should churches be allowed to not pay for vaccines for their employees children if they don't believe in vaccines?

      Churches are already special enough in that they don't pay taxes. They don't need even more special privileges the rest of us don't get.

      What's the difference between a big corporation and the Catholic church? One pays taxes. That's it.

      --
      -- Let us endeavor so to live that when we pass even the undertaker shall be sorry. -- M. Twain
    89. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by kaatochacha · · Score: 1

      If someone, from the future, judges you on the values of their day and states "jpapon is a racist hypocritical bigot because he doesn't sleep with goats or refuses our current practice of sacrificing children born with five fingers", would that make it so?
      I have serious problems with applying current morality to those in the past THEN HOLDING THEM RESPONSIBLE FOR NOT MAGICALLY SEEING THE FUTURE OF MORALITY.
      By extension, any ideas you come up with would be racist to future generations, so why try at all?

    90. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by kaatochacha · · Score: 1

      So how many years until I would be able to use .308? less or more than 9mm?

    91. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      As already written, after a year of small bore firearms, so after two years altogether. It is not a geometric scale, just a distinction between air guns, small bore + weak load, and the real deal.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    92. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by Wild_dog! · · Score: 1

      1. You can't pick and choose who is right. In 2007 the democratically held Senate used the same gimmick to try and unsuccessfully block the same sorts of appointments by then President George W. Bush. Harry Reid deployed the same tactic to prevent the President from appointing people. It didn't work then .... it didn't work now.

      Fact is you can't say this unconstitutional now and not hold the same objections when Bush did it.
      Fact is the senate was in recess and the house was using a gimmick to pretend the senate was in session.
      Fact is the courts have not yet weighed in about the use of this gimmick. It may take years for this to work its way to the Supreme Court. Eventually it will be appealed to the conservative court and how they decide may or may not be in favor of the President. But until SCOTUS decides, this is mostly political hot air. Until then this is the broken system we have... where political parties try and destroy each other rather than doing their job of doing their work for the citizens of the US.

      2. Obamas order is not the law of the land. This is a temporary executive order. Congress would still need to pass it for these folks to become legalized, so it is meaningless except as a suck up to the latino vote. There is nothing permanently binding in it since the president does not make the laws. You seem to confuse what a presidential order is vs a law.

      3. Free exercise of religion sure. That is guaranteed by the constitution and these institutions indeed can do whatever they want on their own and independently of the government. Just as religious schools can operate independently and wish to do so so they can teach creationism instead of evolution. But like all institutions, if they take government money... there are strings attached since the government cannot favor establishment of any religion.

      And so religious medical institutions cannot demand the government make allowances for their particular view because this makes the government a tacit participant in a particular religious ideology. This is about choice. The religious institutions want to have it both ways. They want to choose to involve themselves with the government programs and yet they don't want to have to abide by the restrictions placed on the government by the constitution.

      If they want to not provide birth control, nobody is forcing them to. But they cannot participate in healthcare that is tied up in some sort of governmental program.
      The establishment clause makes this the case. There cannot be government backed exercise of religion which is what these institutions are trying for.

      How would you like it if muslim organizations were also saying that certain muslim practices needed to be implemented across our entire national system of care because they have the right to free exercise of religion but also want to be part of our health exchanges. People would be screaming about Sharia Law being imposed upon everyone.

      Well such is the case here. You perhaps can't see it the same way, but I don't think you would be happy if this were other religious groups trying to insert themselves into your medicare or child health or national insurance exchange system.

      No religious hospital or insurer is "required" to participate in the government exchanges. But if they choose to do it. They cannot discriminate based upon religious ideology.

      So no I will not be calling the WH to complain and I think my principles are just fine. You just have some beliefs which are divergent from mine.

    93. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by jpapon · · Score: 1
      Because their values define our modern government. I could care less about us having different values than them. Of course values change. The problem is that the choices they made directly impact our daily lives through the Constitution.

      For better or worse, their values have a direct impact on our lives. That's why we should examine them.

      --
      -- Let us endeavor so to live that when we pass even the undertaker shall be sorry. -- M. Twain
    94. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by Wild_dog! · · Score: 1

      1. Ok thanks for "boldfacing" that was of little help .... so I will repeat, recess appointments are made all of the time despite the gimmicks and shennanigans of the house and the senate.
      The fact is the Senate was in recess and the house was using the same sort of Gimmick Mr Reid used in 2007 when George Bush did the same thing.
      There is no exceptional power grab here.
      There are cases working their way through the courts and eventually will make it to the Supreme Court who will decide. Until the supreme court says that what Obama and Bush did is unconstitutional these are merely cases.

      2. Firstly, the government doesn't tell religious insurers how to do anything outside of governmental systems. Religious insurers can do as the do now and will continue to be able to do as the do now in perpetuity which is a fulfillment of the first Amendment.

      However, the government exchanges under Obamacare are government run exchanges. They may be state run or federal run if states like Florida continue to not set their own up. Any insurer applying to participate in the exchanges and offer services through the government run exchanges must abide by the constitutions of those states or the federal government. Most states have some sort of clause prohibiting the favoring of one religious ideology over another. Hence, the insurance companies offering the services through the exchange have to abide by the constitutions of the states and the federal government.

      Now an insurance company can choose to not do the exchanges or offer services outside of the exchanges which don't provide for birth control or other services churches deem sin. Nobody is forcing them to do anything there. But when they participate in the governments system..... sorry ... the constitution comes into play. The government cannot favor one religion over another. All insurers must follow the constitution.

      My own state has this to say about religion and government... yours may be slightly different.
      Opinions concerning religion.

      "Sec. 41. The Legislature shall not diminish or enlarge the civil or political rights, privileges and capacities of any person on account of his opinion or belief concerning matters of religion."

      So don't come saying the government is doing something to religion when it is the religious organization seeking to become part of a secular governmental service provider. They can't pick and choose which parts of the constitution apply.

    95. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by Wild_dog! · · Score: 1

      I don't mean what I say as an attack and I certainly did not intend it in such a manner.
      I just disagree with your assertions and your narrative about what is happening.
      Certainly people can hold divergent view without them being considered an attack on the other person I should hope.

      In response to your questions:
      "What will you do when the executive in power does not agree with your agenda?"
      I will admit to having no agenda really. But I am an interested observer in all of these cases.
      When president Bush did a bunch of recess appointments over the shenanigans of Mr. Reid in the senate I thought that it was a bit out of bounds, and in this case with president Obama I think it also is maybe out of bounds. However, I cannot say it is unconstitutional and it may not be found to be so when all is said and done. It will be the SCOTUS who will ultimately decide this and then we will have our answer. But I do think that this is all a symptom of our poorly functioning government.

      "If the limits in presidential authority - in fact limits on power of the entirety of government are not defined by the Constitution, then where I ask are the limits?"
      Limits of government authority are always tested and have been as long as the country has been in existence. There is nothing new here. Our constitutional republic is fully operational, completely functioning, and the constitution is intact. We still have peaceful transfers of power and the balance of powers is still functioning although it is as always contentious and spirited.

      "How far will they go? How much power is enough?"
      Power will always try to acquire more power which is why we have divided government and participation in government by people through a functional elections process. For the most part our system is still intact.
      My reservations primarily reside with the apparent erosion of the power of citizens to have any impact on the actions of our government. It seems that lobbyists and global corporations have more say in our system than the actual voter does and this is concerning to me. The question of how to get more power back into the hands of our citizens, which is the entire reason our country was founded seems to be a better question than worrying about the power structure of the government. If the citizens can gain more actual control then the power of government will be as it should be ... in the hands of this countries great citizens and not worldwide corporate powerbrokers who can buy and sell senators and congressmen and maybe even presidents at this point.

    96. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      I see no contradiction in the statement about slavery. The laws of nature did not enslave them, the laws of men did.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    97. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by Yprime · · Score: 1

      All of those reasons you state why we can't call the founding fathers racists, bigots, and sexists, are also reasons why the constitution's values are not that of our own time and should be changed. You can't logically have it both ways.

    98. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by Wild_dog! · · Score: 1

      "The president cannot pick and choose when he deems a Senate session to be “real.”"

      Actually a president can. The senate needs to have a quorum to do any business and since all of the senators were gone despite the house saying they had to stay meant that the senate was in fact a non-funtioning body and could be considered in recess. BTW... the house also left for the holiday so I find it funny that the house says the senate isn't excused and in the meantime they take the holiday break themselves. Gimmickry.

      Fact is there was no congress in session ... hence a defacto recess.

      This is all a foodfight by a bunch of 3 year olds and has been for the last 10 or so years. It is political silly season and america is divided one group hating on the other and vice versa. We have the lame duck government we deserve because we are all swallowing the ideologic poison pills being lobbed at us by our corporate overlords... they couldn't be happier. We are a house divided and as long as this continues they can do business as usual and raid the public trust. We have a revolving door of government corporate graft. As long as Americans call each other Libtards and Retardicans.... they have us right where they need us.

    99. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by dryeo · · Score: 1

      You're getting mixed up between the King and Parliament. Parliament was and is supreme, with a couple of real revolutions to prove it. They actually cut off the head of one King and fired another to prove they were supreme.
      It is Parliament that has done taxes since the 13th century including taxing the American colonies. The French and Indian wars meant killing French allies and supporting English allies.
      The Royal Proclamation of 1763 granted natives certain rights to their land which upset American colonists, especially land speculators, who considered the land theirs by default.
      Any child in public school knows this was an important reason behind the revolt and is the reason that our Constitution includes the passage
      25. The guarantee in this Charter of certain rights and freedoms shall not be construed as to abrogate or derogate from any aboriginal, treaty or other rights or freedoms that pertain to the aboriginal peoples of Canada including

              (a) any rights or freedoms that have been recognized by the Royal Proclamation of October 7, 1763; and
              (b) any rights or freedoms that now exist by way of land claims agreements or may be so acquired.

      One of the ideas of the Americans was to improve government, with USA v1, then v2 with the hope that v3 would be better but considering how hard it was to get agreement on v2, v3 hasn't happened yet and the way things look to me, v3 will be a step backwards.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    100. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by Yprime · · Score: 1

      If the writers of the constitution believed that women should vote and deliberately avoided denying them the right to vote in the document, then why would they as the first federally elected officials and men of prestige and power within their own states, deny women from voting in the first elections?

    101. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by Wild_dog! · · Score: 1

      This has all happened before:
      Evans v. Stephens, No. 02-16424, at 5 (11th Cir. October 14, 2004).

      "The court next found that the Senate break during which the President appointed Judge Pryor constituted a “recess” within the Recess Appointments Clause. The court stated the arguments that Judge Pryor was not appointed during a constitutional recess “are not so strong as to persuade us that the President’s interpretation is incorrect. . . . given the words of the Constitution and the history, we are unpersuaded by the argument that the recess appointment power may only be used in an intersession recess, but not an intrasession recess.”

      "Next, the court found that “vacancies” need not arise during the recess in order to be filled.
      The court concluded that, in context, the Appointments Clause empowers the President to fill “vacancies that ‘happen’ to exist during a recess . . . . [a] view [that is] consistent with the understanding of most judges that have considered the question, written executive interpretations from as early as 1823, and legislative acquiescence.”

    102. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by Wild_dog! · · Score: 1

      The key part of the above being the fact that the appointment not being made during a "constitutional recess" not really mattering much in terms of presidential interpretation.

      It is important to fill vacancies in government functions so the government can continue to do its job and the senate can still vote on the appointment and nullify it if needed when they get back from vacation. So there is not much of a real difference as irritating as it seems to the other side of the aisle.
      If the appointment stinks, the senate can cancel the appointment a couple weeks later if they want.

    103. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by misexistentialist · · Score: 1

      You forgot to include immigration status, or are you prejudiced against Hispanics' intelligence? This isn't a kindergarten where everyone gets a trophy, but a country that lives or dies based on voters' choices. You wouldn't let some random black refugee poor woman make decisions about your household governance, but you demand that she have a say over more important matters? With such low standards of participation don't be surprised when she views you and your whole country with contempt...and votes accordingly

    104. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by BlearyTruth · · Score: 0

      I thank you for a thoughtful response, and no I am not accusing you of attacking - but it is the norm here when conservative viewpoints are made and yet the leftist is allowed to rant on and on with vitriol and name calling without restraint whatsoever. Double standard much?

      Clearly we disagree which is fine, however I do not condone abuses of constitutional authority by any party - this is my point. The bar for whether or not a specific power should stand I believe should indeed by *very* high - to prevent abuse from any side, and I think the explanation provided by the WAPO editorial is inarguable.

      "For the most part our system is still intact." Sadly I disagree, I believe we are - and have been for many years - in a post-constitutional state, the limits imposed on the state by this document are ignored whenever convenient by the elites. This is made quite clear by the way the ACA was passed end-running around constitutional protections, back room deals and arm twisting - the many interviews of CNS News regarding constitutional authority for this bill show this clearly, these people have no idea (a generalization of course) what the limits of the document actually are and the really don't care (Akaka of Hawaii says this in plain language!). If you do not know what I am referring to just google and have a look it will be eye opening. The fact that Roberts sided with the statist in this matter is particularly troubling, this was a lawless and totally unexpected decision, but here we are. We are left with repeal which I am highly skeptical they will actually do, but of course with politics anything is possible and I will work to that end. Regardless this is a larger discussion for another day.

      Your last paragraph is of note, and again I need to point out that we cannot blame the corporation itself, nor the free market (dubious as it is nowadays) in this matter which is where a lot of misdirection lies. The leftist try and point the blame on private industry and the free market - which is completely false, yet the great unwashed just suck this explanation up as gospel and turn to the left for relief! It is the left that is behind much of this corruption, this is in no way shape or form a conservative policy, the conservative believes in the free market with limited constitutional regulation above almost all else, success is to be rewarded and corruption to be dealt with severely (this specifically excludes the Republican party of today you must understand). This collusion of the state and the elites in power in corporations is called crony capitalism and this is antithetical to the free market in whole.

      So I ask of you what is the solution - who do you support? The conservative is the best hope we have of reigning in this power mad state machine and putting them back in the box that we call the constitution, and the best hope for the conservative is to support the Republican party (we have to reject the radicalism that is the Obama administration and the leftists in congress), and then force the Republicans back to constitutional principles. This will be a long and difficult process if it is even possible. Romney is hardly any magic bullet but he is the best we have and has to be supported. More important is to elect real conservatives to the house and senate and to other local offices.

      In the end this is our country and the solution is up to us! And it can be fixed if we work diligently to that end!

      Do you see what I am saying?

    105. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by redlemming · · Score: 1

      Forcing people to either pay for health insurance or pay a tax seems an unwarranted use of government power for any nation that wishes to view itself as anything resembling a free nation, aside from issues specific to the legal structure and history of the USA.

      The government could instead require that people who do not wish to pay for health insurance regularly put some of their income into a fund they own but that they can only use for health care.

      Of course, a government that is hideously in debt looks rather foolish insisting that its citizens save for their future or have cash on hand available for future expenses.

    106. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by redlemming · · Score: 1

      A lot of good information here. Thank you for providing it.

      While we are on the subject of things actually in the Constitution, I have found nothing there that authorizes the abuse of slaves, allows children to be enslaved, or makes slavery a function of race / skin color / ethnicity / whatever. Also, I have found nothing that authorizes the importation of slaves. The word "slave" doesn't even exist in the Constitution. All that is actually present is the notice that 3/5 of persons not free is counted towards the number of delegates a state gets.

      If follows, therefore, that many of the abuses associated in the public mind with the slave system existed not as a consequence of what was actually written in the Constitution, but rather resulted from decisions made by legal professionals in certain regions of the country. What is allowed by law in any society is enormously shaped (often overly so) by what the legal professionals in that society decide to allow. Working as legislators or on legislative staffs the legal professional will often end up writing the laws, then working as prosecutors they choose how (and whether) to prosecute the laws, and finally working as judges they decide whether or not those laws are legitimate.

      What is actually said in the Constitution regarding slavery is far less than those "kool kids" bashing the Founding Fathers would have us believe.

      While slavery in itself must be viewed as wrong from a modern perspective, it was quite common in the ancient world (both East and West) and few of the famous philosophers and thinkers from those eras stated any objection to it. After all, something had to be done with defeated enemies, and slavery was one alternative to simply killing them outright. The "democracy" of Athens (which was nothing of the sort envisioned by most people today) relied on slave labor, working under hideous conditions in the silver mines.

      Given this history, while disappointing, it should not be a huge surprise that nothing was done in the Constitution to stop slavery: it was simply too radical a break with the past. There were certainly those amongst the Founding Fathers that opposed it. For example, in his book Democracy Reborn, pp. 8, Garrett Epps provides the following quote from a speech at the Constitutional Convention (based upon Madison's notes):

      "Morris never would concur in upholding domestic slavery. It was a nefarious institution. It was the curse of Heaven on the States where it prevailed. States that relied on slavery, he said, were poor, unhappy, barren, ignorant, and uneducated... Upon what principle is it that the slaves shall be computed in the representation? ... That proposal comes to this: that an inhabitant of Georgia and South Carolina who goes to the Coast of Africa, and in defiance of the most sacred laws of humanity tears away his fellow creatures from their dearest connections & damns them to the most cruel bondages, shall have more votes in a Government instituted for the protection of the rights of mankind than a Citizen of Pennsylvania or New Jersey who views with a laudable horror, so nefarious a practice."

      If the legal professionals in the slave states had possessed a greater sense of integrity, they could have worked from the things that weren't stated in the Constitution (and had been stated elsewhere) to gradually remove slavery. After all: don't allow children to be enslaved, block the import of new slaves, and soon you have no more slaves. They chose otherwise. After the civil war, they made very similar decisions with respect to the absurd segregation laws (compensation for which is still owed to those who were wronged, as some of those people are still alive).

      If there is a lesson here, it is that "Eternal Vigilance is the Price of Liberty" does not just apply to keeping an eye on political figures and the government, but also to keeping an eye on legal professionals and the legal system, a point that seems to elude many people.

    107. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by jpapon · · Score: 1

      Forcing people to either pay for health insurance or pay a tax seems an unwarranted use of government power for any nation that wishes to view itself as anything resembling a free nation

      So you're saying that essentially every other modern democracy on the planet isn't free?

      The government could instead require that people who do not wish to pay for health insurance regularly put some of their income into a fund they own but that they can only use for health care.

      Or you could just force people to buy health insurance... The point of insurance is that it spreads out risk. If one person in a hundred gets sick, then you have everybody pay 1/100th of the cost, and then the one person who actually does get sick gets the medical care. Making private accounts doesn't accomplish this, because there's essentially no way someone can save enough in that account to pay for something like cancer treatment. That's why insurance was invented in the first place.

      --
      -- Let us endeavor so to live that when we pass even the undertaker shall be sorry. -- M. Twain
    108. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by jpapon · · Score: 1
      So who gets to decide who has a vote? You?

      Why bother voting at all? Why not just let one really smart person make all our decisions for us? That was Plato's conclusion... maybe he was right.

      You wouldn't let some random black refugee poor woman make decisions about your household governance, but you demand that she have a say over more important matters? With such low standards of participation don't be surprised when she views you and your whole country with contempt...and votes accordingly

      Who are you to say that she should have no voice in her government? What makes you think you are so much better than her?

      How about instead of subjugating people, we educate them?

      I can tell you one thing though - If you are certain you're better than people you know nothing of, then it is virtually certain that you are not.

      --
      -- Let us endeavor so to live that when we pass even the undertaker shall be sorry. -- M. Twain
    109. Re:Ancient societies had diff values. News at 11! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, but the fact that it's bullshit does make it bullshit.

      "It's bullshit because it's bullshit!" Wow, nice argument. You're probably right, but come on.

  3. It's called blogging by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Blogging on paper. It just might work

  4. Piracy jumpstarts any industry in a new country by Frankie70 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    When the USA had no good authors, Charles Dickens used to be pirated heavily in the USA. http://www.doctorsyntax.net/2010/01/charles-dickens-get-your-cotton-pickin.html

    This primed the print industry in the USA. USA started worrying about piracy only after they had their own authors who needed protection.

    This is the reason it's hypocritical when the USA complains about piracy in the developing countries.

    1. Re:Piracy jumpstarts any industry in a new country by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey, who are you calling a developing country? /Sven Svensson

    2. Re:Piracy jumpstarts any industry in a new country by radiumsoup · · Score: 4, Insightful

      so it's hypocritical for people who are alive now to act in a manner opposite of people who are no longer alive? Tell me more about how this works, I'd like to start blaming the Mongols for not keeping up with the ways of Attilla.

    3. Re:Piracy jumpstarts any industry in a new country by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      so it's hypocritical for people who are alive now to act in a manner opposite of people who are no longer alive? Tell me more about how this works, I'd like to start blaming the Mongols for not keeping up with the ways of Attilla.

      This is the reason it's hypocritical when the USA complains about piracy in the developing countries.

      *emphasis mine*
      The point is that it's hypocritical of the US to condemn developing nations for flaunting copyright when the US itself did exactly the same when they were a developing country, similar to how it is with reducing carbon emissions.

    4. Re:Piracy jumpstarts any industry in a new country by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      so it's hypocritical for people who are alive now to act in a manner opposite of people who are no longer alive? Tell me more about how this works, I'd like to start blaming the Mongols for not keeping up with the ways of Attilla.

      So you think Attilla was justified and people today should act like he did?? Oh, I see, it was just some rhetorical bullshit, nitpicking the grandparent and modded up because it sounds good.

      The USA is wrong on copyright today and it's hypocritical for the USA to change the rules to whatever's convenient.

    5. Re:Piracy jumpstarts any industry in a new country by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Atilla was from the Volga region, he wasn't a Mongol. You're thinking of Genghis Khan.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    6. Re:Piracy jumpstarts any industry in a new country by In+hydraulis · · Score: 1

      Attila was a Hun.

    7. Re:Piracy jumpstarts any industry in a new country by cockpitcomp · · Score: 1

      Are you implying China, Russia and India are developing countries? Because they are ancient compared to the USA and should have figured their economies out long ago rather than suckling at the teat of American exceptionalism.

  5. Obligatory by Hugundous · · Score: 4, Funny

    Plagiarize
    Let no one else's work evade your eyes
    Remember why the good Lord made your eyes
    So don't shade your eyes
    But plagiarize, plagiarize, plagiarize
    Only be sure always to call it please "research"

    1. Re:Obligatory by dkleinsc · · Score: 2

      You should of course give Tom Lehrer the credit he's due for that.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    2. Re:Obligatory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You should of course give Tom Lehrer the credit he's due for that.

      Wouldn't giving credit for a poem encouraging plagiarism be too ironic?

    3. Re:Obligatory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      god gave you eyes
      plagiarize

    4. Re:Obligatory by oldmac31310 · · Score: 1

      What? Again? Let this be the last time now. OK?

      --
      http://www.acetonestudio.com
    5. Re:Obligatory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You should of course give Tom Lehrer the credit he's due for that.

      What part of "plagiarism" are you not understanding?

    6. Re:Obligatory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For that song, it might be appropriate to make an exception :-)

  6. Plagiarism: The poor man's syndication by erroneus · · Score: 4, Interesting

    As others have pointed out, any and all businesses that depend on copyright in the US at one time or another (mostly in their beginnings but some even now) depend upon some form of IP infringement. The movie industry moved from the east coast to the west in order to escape Edison and his patents over the motion picture, for example.

    1. Re:Plagiarism: The poor man's syndication by Nerdfest · · Score: 1

      In this case I don't think the result would have been any different if attribution were given either. It was not won because of plagiarism, only spreading news.

    2. Re:Plagiarism: The poor man's syndication by mounthood · · Score: 1

      As others have pointed out, any and all businesses that depend on copyright in the US at one time or another (mostly in their beginnings but some even now) depend upon some form of IP infringement. The movie industry moved from the east coast to the west in order to escape Edison and his patents over the motion picture, for example.

      The USA changes the rules to maximize business. Right now, extreme copyright enforcement and radical extensions will make more money for US businesses. As evidence in favor of this, I would suggest that (a) businesses think they know how to maximize their own profits better than outsiders (wise-crowds not withstanding), and (b) the US government does what businesses want, consistently and with vigor. If we want copyright laws changed, those are the important points to argue against. The fact that business historically depended on copyright infringement doesn't speak financially to modern big businesses, except to suggest that new competition could benefit from copyright infringement just as they did. It also suggests a moral argument against strong copyright, but that's largely ignored by business and government.

      We shouldn't try fighting (b) directly given it's long history and the amount of money involved. Instead, I'd argue that strong copyright will destroy US businesses by denying them incentive to adjust to new technology and giving a huge advantage to new businesses in nations that don't have strong copyright laws. Strong copyright will be irrelevant because it unfairly supports US businesses against businesses in other countries. The rest of the world will either reject strong copyright directly or subvert it (for example, through lack of enforcement.)

      Therefore, US Government policy is not in the best economic interests of individual businesses because businesses advocate for their own profits, not for an overall healthy industry. Ironically, it's a shared-commons problem where US businesses depending on strong copyright will find themselves unable to make the radical adjustments needed for a new market environment brought about by nations without strong copyright. US business depending on strong copyright will fail in a global market dominated by new businesses from outside the US. I'm sure businesses will argue (a) that they can enjoy the high profits of strong copyright today and still adjust when they need to, but history shows otherwise and government policy should diverge from what businesses advocate to protect the industry.

      --
      tomorrow who's gonna fuss
  7. Not much has changed by wvmarle · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Not much changed. These days newspapers across the world (especially English-language papers) have identical articles too. They just take it from "the wire" and reprint it without any editing usually. I literally see the same articles in a local Hong Kong paper that I see later linked from /. so some US online paper.

    The only difference is that nowadays this exchange goes a lot faster, and that papers usually pay for the privilege.

    1. Re:Not much has changed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They also usually stick "AP/some local editor or writer" on the byline. Even if you buy it, it's usually a requirement if not common courtesy to credit the author of the writing.

    2. Re:Not much has changed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      How could this get modded "Insightful"?

      The basic premise states "Stuff got pirated" and someone replies with "It's the same, just today they pay for the license"*. Wuh? It's the same as claiming me getting the apples from the store was the same as theft, I just paid for them.

      * And what was omitted is that you can see where a specific piece of information comes from, in newspapers you'll find a "(dpa)" or whatever at the beginning of the article, indicating it's from an agency.

      If the above post should get modded something, it'd be "Wrong 5" or "Redundant 5".

    3. Re:Not much has changed by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      Not much changed. These days newspapers across the world (especially English-language papers) have identical articles too. They just take it from "the wire" and reprint it without any editing usually. I literally see the same articles in a local Hong Kong paper that I see later linked from /. so some US online paper.

      The only difference is that nowadays this exchange goes a lot faster, and that papers usually pay for the privilege.

      Well, it's a bit different these days - in that newspapers getting syndicated content from AP, Reuters, etc., pay for that priviledge. It wasn't wholesale cribbing of aritcles without attribution or anything.

      All that's really happened is that with communications getting so quick these days, plagiarism is similarly easy to detect. Back then, it's a lot harder get between here and there, so if someone decided to plagiarize, it was pretty hard to detect because it would involve investing in a day or more's worth of travel to pick up the paper and compare, and for things like this, it was relatively pointless.

      In effect - it happened because it was a lot harder to catch it happening. These days it's far easier to get caught.

      Same goes for copyright and all that - people pirated a lot back then as well, usually sheet music, books, etc. Sure there was no international copyright treaty, but it was also a lot harder to enforce. What, Britain was going to send a fleet of ships to the colonies because someone reprinted Dickens?

    4. Re:Not much has changed by Smauler · · Score: 2

      Plagiarism is not copyright infringement. They are two entirely different things. You can plagiarise something that is in the public domain, for example, which has no copyright.

      Some of the online definitions of the word claim that to plagiarise, you must have stolen or used without the author's authority. Others (and I) disagree - it's perfectly possible to plagiarise something that is in the public domain which is written anonymously. You can't steal something you have every right to use. Plagiarism happens when you pass off the works as your own, it's nothing to do with how you obtain the work in my opinion. Copying a classmate's assignment is usually considered plagiarism, despite the fact that nothing was stolen or used without the author's consent.

      Buying something, then printing it as your own is still plagiarism, even if you have the permission of the author to do so. If the author's consent were a pivotal issue, terms like self-plagiarism would be nonsensical.

    5. Re:Not much has changed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So true. The fact that the comment you replied to use the term "pirated" is a clear sign definitions were being used loosely, matey.

  8. Boilerplate by flyingfsck · · Score: 5, Informative

    The practise was known as 'boilerplate'. Smaller newspapers would buy printing plates from larger newspapers and only add their own title block and a few local stories. That doesn't mean plagiarism though - it was a sale.

    --
    Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
  9. No cause-effect in sight by SigmundFloyd · · Score: 1

    Newspapers of the time could have obtained the same results without any plagiarism (e.g. by hiring field correspondents).

    The alleged cause-effect relationship exists only in the author's obviously underpowered mind.

    --
    Knowledge is power; knowledge shared is power lost.
    1. Re:No cause-effect in sight by metrometro · · Score: 1

      This is a bit like saying "The Apollo program could have achieved the same results by providing the astronauts with laptop computers".

      Journalism as you know it today -- field correspondents! -- hadn't been invented yet. At the time, newspapers were either gentlemen sending letters around or a summary of whatever people were saying. The idea of professional fact gatherers was a fairly recent development, and one hopes, not a transitional one to whatever we do now.

    2. Re:No cause-effect in sight by T+Murphy · · Score: 1

      You don't even have to go that far- the author stipulates that plagarism was what helped unite the nation, but plagarism is both copying and failing to attribute the work. It seems copying was the actual contributing factor- the newspapers could have cited the original source and news would get around just fine.

  10. Dupe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is hardly a new problem.

    In fact, plagiarism was a practice that helped unite the colonies and win the Revolutionary War. Without professional writing staffs of journalists or correspondents, eighteenth-century newspaper printers relied heavily on an intercolonial newspaper exchange system to fill their pages. Printers often copied entire paragraphs or columns directly from other newspapers and frequently without attribution. As a result, identical news reports often appeared in multiple papers throughout America. For example, an eyewitness account of the Boston Tea Party by 'An Impartial Observer' was first authored for the December 20, 1773, Boston Gazette, but was soon reprinted without edit or attribution in other New England newspapers.

  11. Soo? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So Plagiarism is proved again to be a bad thing then?

    Speaks a British royalist and soon to be Canadian citizen. For it would have been far easier to keep these pesky colonists under control if they had not stooped to using dirty tricks to keep cohesion in their fragmented colony.

    On the other hand, having studied 18th Century political history the colonists did have valid grievances that were not being addressed and revolution is often the only way to force the issue.

  12. Different Goals by somaTh · · Score: 2

    There's a lot to be said here about the ends you're trying to achieve. Getting the news of the Boston Massacre out was more important than who makes the money selling the paper. There's also the consideration that republication happened in markets that weren't competing with the original source newspaper. In a time when horse and buggy was the primary mode of transportation, newspapers in other cities reprinting the stories was just how the story was distributed. There was no way to reach everyone, and telling how atrocious the British were being was everyone's goal.

    --
    Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
    1. Re:Different Goals by cowboy76Spain · · Score: 1

      Because all of the XVIII century newspaper editors were spiritual being who disregarded money. Is that your point?

      Also, I fail to see how a line saying "This news is republished from such other newspaper", or paying a fee to the original writer would have hindered the spread of the news (less important news could have been omitted, but not the headlines).

      Yes, they had another set of ethics so in their eyes it was not bad. But to say that, without those ethics the news would have not spread that far is a big overstatement. Nowadays, all newspapers "copy" news from the press agencies by paying and giving proper citations and it seems that it works.

      It is like saying that, because these newspapers printing blatantly one-sided and partisan reports about the facts helped the American Revolution, all newspapers today should never try to be impartial or objective.

      --
      Why can't /. have a rich-text editor? Editing your own HTML is so XXth century.
    2. Re:Different Goals by somaTh · · Score: 1

      No, my point is that if you're spreading the local gossip and a rival newspaper is printing the same thing, you're going to want to be paid for that, mostly to dissuade the rival from using your stories. I'm saying that the story presented non-rival newspapers repeating stories that the rulers of the country are committing these atrocities, and I could understand where, in cases like that, you might not hunt down every newspaper that's reprinting your article.

      --
      Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
    3. Re:Different Goals by JorDan+Clock · · Score: 2

      Man. It was still about money. They were buying the rights to the articles when they bought the printing plates from other newspapers. You don't think they just reset their own plates do you?

  13. Hmmm... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

    I don't doubt that plagiarism was the order of the day(even in academia, the idea that plagiarism is a bad thing hardly goes back to the beginning); but I would be curious to know why...

    The incentive behind copying things is pretty obvious; but mere copying isn't plagiarism. It takes lack of attribution to get to that level, and the incentive to not attribute isn't nearly as obvious. If I'm a newspaper editor in Baltimore, reprinting a story from a Boston paper, why wouldn't I include "As lately printed in ye Boston Herald" to assure my readers that they were getting authentic coverage from the scene, rather than me making shit up?

    1. Re:Hmmm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If I'm a newspaper editor in Baltimore, reprinting a story from a Boston paper, why wouldn't I include "As lately printed in ye Boston Herald" to assure my readers that they were getting authentic coverage from the scene, rather than me making shit up?

      Because it is more work for editor and typographer and none in Baltimore f.k'n cared anyway. Attribution is just a plug for appeasing source's vanity, which they are not even going to enjoy from that far away. What is important, what is meat of the information is what it is about, not who you got it from (unless the source is of doubtful credibility and you want to distance yourself from it, just in case).

    2. Re:Hmmm... by lowtekk · · Score: 2

      I think one other factor of the time that is being lost in our discussion is that printing a paper was a laborious and time consuming task back then, and the attribution information may have been lost to the second or third had recipients further down in the colonies. There was no cut and paste, unless you note the comment above with regards to smaller papers buying boilerplate from a larger paper. I think of this not as plagiarism so much as a primitive precursor to the AP.

  14. Liberals covering for each other by drsmack1 · · Score: 0

    I was waiting for this bit of scientific support for liberal laziness. The media ran all these stories during Clinton's troubles on how lying and infidelity were "normal". Now that yet another high-profile liberal rag has been caught plagiarizing, it's "normal" now.

    I have some additional arguments that I thought of myself:

    So, two and half centuries ago, there were quite different values in place. What's so shocking about it?

    and

    Newspapers of the time could have obtained the same results without any plagiarism (e.g. by hiring field correspondents).

    The alleged cause-effect relationship exists only in the author's obviously underpowered mind.

    Now I'm ready to cover the conventions!

  15. Syndication? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is this plagiarism or a crude form of syndication?

  16. Interesting, so many of my favorite sites by Shivetya · · Score: 2

    with stories about plagiarism and how "its okay" or "rooted in history" I wonder at the timing. After all it wasn't like someone at a major news magazine recently got stung. Astroturfing anyone?

    --
    * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
    1. Re:Interesting, so many of my favorite sites by cffrost · · Score: 1

      [W]ith stories about plagiarism and how "its okay" or "rooted in history" I wonder at the timing. After all it wasn't like someone at a major news magazine recently got stung. Astroturfing anyone?

      You're probably right. Big Public Domain up to their usual tricks.

      --
      Thank you, Edward Snowden.

      "Arguments from authority are worthless." —Carl Sagan
    2. Re:Interesting, so many of my favorite sites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Plagiarism becomes an issue every time Vice President Joe Biden stands for election. Looks like they're trying to make him into a great patriot instead of a student who had to cheat to get mediocre grades.

  17. Fareed Zakaria? by sycodon · · Score: 1

    Fareed Zakaria has kidnapped samzenpus.

    --
    When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    1. Re: Fareed Zakaria? by larry+bagina · · Score: 1

      Yep, him and Jayson Blair.

      --
      Do you even lift?

      These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

    2. Re: Fareed Zakaria? by metrometro · · Score: 1

      The two are really not comparable:

      Zakaria had one lightly modified paragraph about policy history that made it into his work without attribution. One graf. CNN has dug through his body of work (with outside help from the conservative blogs, which hate Zakaria), found no other examples of poor work, and reinstated him.

      Blair invented unnamed sources, reported from cities he did not even visit, and a host of other things under the category of "making shit up" about breaking news that included the work he was most known and respected for. In other words, his career as a whole was a fraud.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jayson_Blair#Plagiarism_and_fabrication_scandal

  18. The American Revolution would have been won anyway by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm not saying which side it would have been won by, but it would have been won.

  19. May not be plagerism by jimbolauski · · Score: 1

    Who's to say there was not an agreements in place that allowed the sharing of newspaper articles without attributing to the source, it may be that as long as no one put their name atop the article that it was acceptable with the other papers. Writing anything anti-colonial may not have been attributed to the writer to protect the writer from imprisonment or the gallows. Many of the major newspapers owners did know each other and were sympathetic to the cause so a simple arrangement is a very likely scenario. It is more likely that this was a distributed propaganda network then a shift in plagiarism values. Unless other articles not related to the revolution can be found to be treated in the same way before, during, and after the revolution it would be reckless to call this a change in values.

    --
    Knowledge = Power
    P= W/t
    t=Money
    Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
    1. Re:May not be plagerism by Wovel · · Score: 1

      Exactly. The conclusions this piece draws are not supported in any way. I am not even sure the author could define plagiarism.

  20. Even plagiarised the flag! by Goth+Biker+Babe · · Score: 1

    It seems copying even went as far as picking a flag...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_the_United_States#History

  21. If true, why wouldn't it be relevant? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If true, why wouldn't it be relevant? It would tell us something about ourselves we should know.

  22. Judging the past with the eyes of the future by bmo · · Score: 3, Interesting

    This was not plagiarism. This is how things were done. Calling it plagiarism is demeaning to the efforts made to spread information back then. They didn't have the mass media that we have today. There weren't even analogous syndication services like AP and Reuters to syndicate columns and act as clearing houses for news articles. The societal infrastructure for syndication simply wasn't there. There were no methods for collecting royalties on articles except being paid through the local paper. Stuff got repeated and nobody got their panties in a twist. It's different today, because there are mechanisms in place for attribution and for people to get fairly paid.

    Plagiarism is the *wrongful* appropriation of literary content. Back then it wasn't wrongful. Ergo, TFA calling it plagiarism is intellectually dishonest, at best.

    --
    BMO

    1. Re:Judging the past with the eyes of the future by Smauler · · Score: 1

      Plagiarism is the *wrongful* appropriation of literary content.

      So buying an article online and submitting it as your own is not plagiarism?

    2. Re:Judging the past with the eyes of the future by cpufrier37075 · · Score: 1

      Modern Advocacy Organizations Call it "Getting the word out."

  23. Wait a minute... by SternisheFan · · Score: 1

    So now plagiarism is okay, and a good thing? But, ..., don't we have all these laws against plagiarizing someone else's work? That means it's bad.... But, our founding fathers plagiarized, so that means it's good to .... Hmm... , let me think about this, ...., ...., .....***BOOM!!!*** (head explodes)

  24. this is a... by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 1

    ...I will put my modern values into the past and judge people based on today's criteria story. If it was accepted practice back then you should STFU. You should also not promote it as a model of how to do things today. You can't go back to that exact time and place.

  25. Convenient... by argStyopa · · Score: 1

    So let me see if I understand:
    Copyright violation helped people resist the rightful government of the time?

    Oh THAT'S going to be helpful in the discussion about the need to reduce/limit copyright. /tinfoil hat

    --
    -Styopa
  26. Was the missing attribution relevant? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I don't think that the missing attribution was relevant to the described effect. Even if proper credit would have been given, the stories would have spread quickly. The implicit connection between plagiarism and the US revolution is simpliy invalid.

  27. The Internet was built on "plagiarism", too by davide+marney · · Score: 1

    I can't count the number of times I've copied some code from a web site and disassembled it to learn how it works. I've never just flat-out cut and pasted code without permission to go on a production site, but that initial copy to learn things would no doubt be considered "plagiarism" (or at the very least copyright infringement) by today's hyper-legal norms.

    The free flow of information benefits everyone, but that benefit rarely comes all at once from a single mind. More often, it takes lots of incremental, standing-on-the-shoulders-of-giants improvements to make something really valuable. As the founders of the Internet and Linux have shown us, we all get more by giving a little. Better to have 1% of a watermelon than 100% of a raisin.

    --
    "We receive as friendly that which agrees with, we resist with dislike that which opposes us" - Faraday
    1. Re:The Internet was built on "plagiarism", too by FrangoAssado · · Score: 1

      but that initial copy to learn things would no doubt be considered "plagiarism" (or at the very least copyright infringement)

      There's a HUGE difference between plagiarism and copyright infringement. Plagiarism is when you copy someone's work (or even idea) and tell everyone it's your own original work. There's almost never justification for doing so.

      On the other hand, there are many situations when it's justifiable and even desirable to infringe on someone else's copyright. That is so common that a limited form of copyright exception is provided by law ("fair use").

      So, don't hide the giants when you're standing on their shoulders.

  28. Conclusivve proof of the importance of copyright by Dodgy+G33za · · Score: 0

    If the mother country had been better at enforcing copyright law the whole independence mess could have been avoided and the glorious British Empire might still rule the waves.

    Having said that you yanks are doing quite well for yourselves since we gave you your country.

    *tongue firmly in cheek, in case you hadn't noticed*

  29. Huff Po??? by ZonkerWilliam · · Score: 1

    So whats their agenda with this piece?

  30. Plagiarism: The Last Sin by Compaqt · · Score: 1

    If this is meant to be a "Why is this on Slashdot"- Well, it's like this: The only way we can know that older societies had different values is if we can read about it. Ok?

    Anyway, it's quite interesting that plagiarism is apparently the one thing you can do to get the punishment of shunning. Shunning was the practice of removing an individual from the good graces or even contact of the rest of a given society (whether that be a church, a village, or whatever).

    From a NPOV, it's quite interesting that almost every sin that would have resulted in shunning in the old day is now considered not a big deal. On the other hand, since human beings have a need to have some kind of moral base, a new sin (plagiarism) has been devised which if you commit it, you can be banished forever from your journalistic community.

    It's just quite interesting that instead of saying that some guy isn't that good of a writer if he can't make up his own stuff, it's supposed that he committed a grave moral sin.

    --
    I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
  31. An that's the reason behind todays' actions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What happened back then was a change of the by-then-staus-quo. It's not appreciated to change todays' world, so the next generation gets the burden of getting a criminal record for things their fathers and grandfathers did before. But today it is different. My father wanted to change the world back then. And he did. But I want to change his world. And that's not ok.

  32. No Sense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes - This is how the Associated Press was born.

  33. Timing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So... We've got VP Joe Biden, Senate Candidate (and faux Indian) Elizabeth Warren, and left leaning CNN reporter Fareed Zakaria all tagged as plagiarists..

    Suddenly, we discover plagiarism was commonplace and the American Revolution couldn't have happened without it.

    Must be election time, for it smells a little like moral equivalence around here.

  34. crap article by nicoleb_x · · Score: 1

    This wouldn't get past a peer review.

  35. Fanning the flames of information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What do media outlets pay Journalists to do? Do they pay them to have original thoughts, words and ideas, or do they pay them to produce content that gets ratings, hits, and/or views. Tie the content to revenue, and I believe you'll find that originality does not factor into the bottom line. Historically, is there proof that re-using someone else's original words to provide a means to an end has occurred? Certainly. Have people used other people's words without giving them credit? Absolutely. When it comes to getting the information you need, do you care who released the information first, or do you just care that the information is legitimate?

    If you release something on the Internet, it is a widely held belief, legal implications aside, that whatever it is (text, picture, video), is now public domain. Sharing is as easy as blowing into a fire to make the flames rise. Whether this information is a newly released trailer for a movie, or a story about kids being bullied in Illinois, or the score of a baseball game, the result of sharing this information is that it gets to an audience that will consume it.

    I can tell you, first hand, that it takes much longer to produce original stories, and that many of these original stories go unnoticed in this great big world, because the majority of the outlets where people get their information are just churning out the re-hashed stories over and over again. People would rather have the information quickly and in short blurbs that little time to ingest, than to have it provided in a longer, more original point-of-view.

    Most people are too lazy to really find originality and truth in this world. It's out there. I am one of the ones producing it. I will keep producing it, because I believe there is a place for it, and maybe someday, it may even be popular again.

  36. Not Exactly by Wovel · · Score: 1

    I believe all the reports were attributed to he Sam Pseudonym and none of the other papers had writers claiming the work as their own. Moreover, it appears there was same sharing arrangement between most if not all of the papers involved.

    This is not the world's clearest case of plagiarism.

  37. Stop making fucking excuses! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    [blah blah blah freedom blah blah blah security from foreign interference blah blah blah.]

    ~ Excerpts by Thomas Paine

    There, how fucking hard was that? This defense of plagiarism is bullshit. Quit stealing, bitches!

    1. Re:Stop making fucking excuses! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pardon me... I forgot how expensive ink and paper were back then. So how's about:

      Excrpts b Thos. Paine

      Or...

      Exts~T. Paine

      There's no real excuse here, they just want to pretend plagiarism was EVER a good thing, which of course it's not. Stealing has been stealing ever since before the advent of the Phoenician word for "MINE" was coined.

  38. Just one gun? by gwolf · · Score: 1

    If the cheerleader has a gun, why don't the three rapists have one too?

    So, three armed serial rapists and an one armed cheerleader. I fail to see how this situation leads to a freer cheerleader.

    1. Re:Just one gun? by kenai_alpenglow · · Score: 1

      Let's assign some (obviously pulled-out-of-the-ether) numbers here: unarmed rapist: Attack value 10 unarmed cheerleader: Attack value 1 Assume a gun gives a +100 value: armed rapist: Value 110 armed cheerleader: Value 101 30-to-1 vs ~3-to-1. Still not great, but a heck of a lot better........

    2. Re:Just one gun? by Nadaka · · Score: 1

      Being armed provides a literal equalization of power.

      Each of those rapists could individually overpower the chearleader and take what they want with little risk to themselves.

      If she is armed, then the risk they face by attacking increases dramatically.

      Even if they are all armed, the risk each attacker faces will remain high, they don't get what they want by shooting first or returning fire.

  39. Parsing by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

    Although today the stigma of lifting passages

    First guess: 19th century name for "elevator"
    Second guess: stirring paragraphs
    Third guess after reading headline: plagiarism

    --
    systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    1. Re:Parsing by VortexCortex · · Score: 1

      Conclusion: Huffington Post is defending its stance on passage lifting.

  40. Even worse... by Dareth · · Score: 2

    Even worse, I hear some if not all of the founding fathers supported their local Chick-Fil-A!

    --

    I only look human.
    My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
  41. You want America back? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oh, if Great Britain wants it back, no problem! Have your royal family dip into petty cash, sell some extra crown jewels that are just lying around collecting dust, and buy America back from us. Er, there's a bit of a national debt problem you'ld have to take on, the Chinese would want repayment, hmm.... All totaled, we can let you buy back the U.S.A. for...., one hundred google billion dollars! Sounds like a lot, but remember, you do get ALL of the Kardashian women thrown into the deal. .

  42. Plagiarism did *not* contribute anything by perpenso · · Score: 1

    Newspapers of the time could have obtained the same results without any plagiarism ...

    Absolutely correct.

    ... (e.g. by hiring field correspondents).

    No. They simply needed to cite the original author.

    The alleged cause-effect relationship exists only in the author's obviously underpowered mind.

    Certainly the relationship only exists in the author's mind and not in reality. The personal attack diminishes your argument.

  43. Citing author would not slow then news by perpenso · · Score: 1

    There's a lot to be said here about the ends you're trying to achieve. Getting the news of the Boston Massacre out was more important than who makes the money selling the paper. There's also the consideration that republication happened in markets that weren't competing with the original source newspaper. In a time when horse and buggy was the primary mode of transportation, newspapers in other cities reprinting the stories was just how the story was distributed. There was no way to reach everyone, and telling how atrocious the British were being was everyone's goal.

    Citing the original author would not slow the news, cause papers not to sell, etc. Plagiarism contributed nothing.

  44. Gannett papers by Latent+Heat · · Score: 1

    Like with the Gannett chain of local newspapers?

  45. Wire reports by tepples · · Score: 1

    So in other words, not too different from the modern "wire reports" by AP or Reuters.

  46. So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...the revolution will be plagiarized?

  47. newspapers of the past did have different ideas by brokeninside · · Score: 1

    And it is most likely true that to some extent the notion of authorship with regards to news was much more fungible in the 18th century America than it was today.

    It is also true that development of practices and technologies recognizeable as print syndication didn't really develop until th e19th century.

    But it is also true that various publishers and authors did get their panties in a twist when their competitors stole their output word for word. Were this not the case, the US Constitution would not have explicitly given Congress the right to set terms for patents and copyrights.

    Moreover, the English word plagiarism repleat with most of its current connotations dates back at least to the 17th century. And it's based on Latin that seems to have been coined in the 1st century. It is not a new idea. It's rigorous application to journalism and academia may be new but all you have to do is read letters from various newspaper publishers from the Revolutionary era to see that those being plagiarized did not feel as warm as fuzzy about the practice as those doing the plagiarizing.

  48. I call bull by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The summary hints at no case being made for plagarism helping to win the revolution, or to help spread revolutionary ideas. Is there any reason to expect a different readership or reader interpretation if proper attribution had been given?

    Title should read "Plagarism was the norm during american revolutionary times". That it helped the war or swayed any opinions is bunk.

  49. This is not plagiarism by Jiro · · Score: 1

    Plagiarism is claiming you wrote something that you didn't. Copying something without permission isn't plagiarism unless you are claiming that the copied material is written by you; someone who torrents the Avengers film isn't considered to be committing plagiarism, even by the MPAA. If you copy an account of the Boston Tea Party written by an eyewitness, but you don't claim to be that eyewitness, you're not committing plagiarism at all.

  50. You can steal by skovnymfe · · Score: 1

    but I'll sue you if you steal from me.

  51. Yes things were different, values were different. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And many of those things were wrong, many of those values were deeply flawed.

    It is perfectly acceptable to judge previous societies by our values and expanded understanding (scientific, moral, etc.)

    They were flawed, they made mistakes, we can say that and we can use that understanding so as not to deify them, not repeat or continue their mistakes, and avoid making errors in judgement based on the deeply flawed idea that they were moral or intellectual giants for all the ages. They were not and demonstrably so by the evidence of their lives, behaviors, writing, etc.

    In fact that is what the most intelligent and moral among them would advocate.

    No Kings (anoited of God.) No Gods in government.

  52. Pot, meet kettle. Look in the mirror bright-eyes. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    RE: "Again, calling something bullshit does not make it so, no matter how loudly you say it."

    Pot, meet kettle. Look in the mirror bright-eyes.

    Oh, and by the way you arrogant patrician twit:
    "Thomas Jefferson was an ardent advocate of public education as a cornerstone of a free republican society."

    http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/jefferson/jeffrep.html

  53. Rampant today too..look @ these who did it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Plagiarism is in full use today; just look at these authors...err, I mean plagiarists?

    Jorgo Chatzimarkakis
    Fareed Zakaria
    Jayson Blair
    Victor Ponta
    Zachery Kouwe
    Maureen Dowd

  54. could i also say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    that file sharing helped win the revolution?

  55. USA as an ephemeral creature by luk3Z · · Score: 0

    USA is a rebel country maked by refugees from Europe. It should be divided between UK, France and Spain (maybe Holland also - New York as New Amsterdam).

    --
    Recipes for USA bankrupt - http://tinypaste.com/0d66f dd = dollar deluge (printed in the infinity)
  56. Early version of wire service by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Toady we see virtually the same news article appearing in many places - it's due to a "wire service" which provides stories. Isn't this just the earlier version? :)