Slashdot Mirror
Sealed-Box Macs: Should Computers Be Disposable?
An anonymous reader writes "Apple's new Retina MacBook Pro is essentially completely non-upgradable, a sealed-box, following a trend started with the MacBook Air in 2008. It's a given that hardware companies are in the business of selling hardware, and would love for computers to have iPhone-like replacement cycles of 1-3 years. But does this mean we're moving irresistibly into an era of 'sealed-unit computing,' even for power users?"
Only if you want to spend money with Apple. I'll stick with building my own, or using a laptop from a brand where I can upgrade it if I want.
... wait, what?
According to your sig, this is what we call insightful. ;-)
It very much is the way things are going to be done and it turns out, people like it. The experiment was first tried with the MacBook Air and people bought it without hesitation. Had the Air been a flop this wouldn't be happening.
Or put another way, I've never met someone that "upgraded" their laptop after 2 years anyway. They hand it down or put it to work in the corner of the room, but they aren't upgraded. Whether it is a Dell, Mac, or Thinkpad. I put more ram in mine after 3, but I think I"m by far the exception. The most upgrades laptops probably ever received was in that period of time when you could replace the old hdd with ssd and get a huge bump. Now we're falling out of that even as laptops come stock with ssd.
to see how well planned obsolescence worked out for the American auto industry.
No thanks, Apple. I've had enough. The custom temp sensors / connectors for hard drives in the iMac? The obliteration of your Server OS in 10.7... countless other slights, rough terms/conditions... I always somehow managed to keep pulling for Mac and OS X because I felt it was the best UNIX workstation you could buy. Yeah, keep closing up.. as your market share grows you'll see more of this -- your restriction of choice will eventually get the best of you if you're not careful.
Honestly, they're not "sealed" to sell more hardware. Nobody in their right mind is buying a new $3000 laptop every three years.
The reasons are twofold:
1) It is easier to make the laptop thinner and smaller if it does not have to have the mechanics necessary to facilitate taking it apart (screws, bulkheads, etc), or to make it modular (why not just mount a bunch of SMT flash to the motherboard for a disk drive rather than have a 9mm thick 2.5" wide 3" long metal box with yet another circuit board in it? It's more profitable to just integrate everything on one board.
2) We're in a state of development where hardware is a decade or more ahead of software. There is too much computer and not enough problem. My Athlon X2 from 2005 does everything I need it to do, and will do so for years to come. So, why bother with upgrades anymore? They are unnecessary unless you're a hardcore gamer, in which case you're not buying a laptop.
does this mean we're moving irresistibly into an era of 'sealed-unit computing,' even for power users?
No. Next question, please.
"Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
The manufacturer should pay S&H to receive such sealed units for recycling and it should be as simple as submitting a request on their website for a prepaid addressed bag/envelope/box to be sent to the customer.
No sig. Move along - nothing to see here.
This isn't exactly new. The original Macintosh was rather deliberately designed to be a sealed unit, with no user-upgradable/replaceable components inside.
Just like pretty much every other piece of consumer electronics. How easy is it to upgrade your Blu-Ray player, or replace components in your clock radio? Microcomputers have been the exception to this, beginning as kits and retaining some level of user-customization (most of the time). But as they get closer in size a pocket calculator than to a refrigerator, with the components getting smaller and closer together in the process, the notion that you can open up and tinker with your laptop becomes about as practical as suggesting that you do the same with your wrist watch.
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
Pocket calculators are designed to do one specific task. Yes, there are some more advanced models that can do other tasks, but they fall under the same category.
What is a Mac or PC designed to do? Everything you can imagine. If it can be written in software, it should be usable on a machine like that. However, some software needs more RAM or a better graphics unit, or some users need more HDD space. That's why they're "upgradable", they're meant to be modular.
However that being said, this doesn't surprise me and should come as no surprise to any die-hard Mac users. Vote with your money.
+1 IDisagreeSoHeMustBeATrollOrAnAstroturferOrAShill
apple sells an experience, it hasnt sold computers or catered to the "power user" since the 1980s. Instead, Jobs expanded upon the initial notion of easy to use computing thats attractive and modern and comes at a premium price. Part of that experience is acknowledging that in order to provide uniformity to the target demographic, the Mac-anything is going to be a closed box. when it breaks, the consumer need only buy a new one. Never fault the customer or insist they understand how to do anymore than consume the product and have fun within the lines.
Apple users, largely but not exclusively, are less computer owner and more internet user. For those of us who wanted a real computer, the kind you can get into and tinker with, we built one from parts.
Good people go to bed earlier.
"What the hell do you mean this Italian restaurant doesn't serve curry? I want curry damnit and anyone that doesn't want it is a complete idiot for not wanting curry. You idiots who eat what you like and not what I tell you to like are such sheep!"
That's basically what you just said. Get over yourself, your needs are not the only valid ones.
Monstar L
This is horrible. Who would buy anything that they can't easily repaired and/or upgrade themselves? Next thing you know, we won't be able to pull the tubes from our radios and TVs and take them down to the drug store to test them.
Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of congress. But then I repeat myself. -- Mark Twain
Also, chances are that if you still have a pocket calculator from the 70s or 90s that those devices are still useful for their original intended purpose. They are not made obsolete by new software that chokes on a smaller hard drive or inadequate core memory.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
This reminds me of a conversation I had with my sweetheart, a market research person placed rather high up in a Fortune 500 company. She's a smart cookie. I consider myself to not be too stupid either. Anyway here's the gist of the argument.
I'm an old dinosaur, having been around the PC since it took off in the 70's. I've always had a PC since my teenage years - Apple II, PC XT, AT, and all the way across the upgrade path to the current i7 quad core I'm writing this on. As a dinosaur, I always have in the back of my mind the modular design of the computer. PC's were originally sold to us on expandability - the ISA slots. With those 8 slots you could increase the memory, add in a co-processor, a graphics card - hard drives, when those came out. The sky was the limit. And no one wanted to buy a computer that had few ISA slots - I mean, why shoot yourself in the foot right at the beginning? Compatibility was also paramount. It had to be IBM-compatible, because that was the "gold standard".
But the market has changed. Kids nowadays, and Joe Public who isn't a computer expert at all - well they really don't give a damn about keeping their options open. They want a neat little package that works with as little hassle as possible. The things I value in a computer are not the things they value in a computer. And unfortunately as I age, I am slowly but surely moving into a very niche market.
Of course I think the current trend is wrong. I am dead set against the top-down model that manufacturers are desperate to impose on people - buy this machine, and then only buy from my store, and only run apps that I say, and eventually, don't run apps at all - lease CPU time from us "in the cloud" (which is just another way of saying the old mainfraime/client model). I think there is great danger in this route - because no one will look after your data, and you can be denied access to your data. And of course you will have to pay to access your data. Without even mentioning security problems. Personal computers had broken through that top-down model and everyone had a mini supercomputer (at least what passed for one in the 70's) on their desk and could do anything they wanted. Now you will only be able to do what you are allowed. But again, the market doesn't care. The market wants facebook and skype and angry birds and a camera and a phone and to be able to watch tv, and that's it.
Apple has seen this, and oh god are they ever cashing in. Others are catching up. But the direction of the technology is the same, be it apple or the competitors. A locked device, and pay for service. I think it's a shame, but I'll be dead soon.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
I'm sorry if someone came out with a $25,000 disposable car, that needed no service, was virtually indestructible for 5 years and then had to be turned in for the next $25,000 disposable car, I'm guessing most folks would tell Detroit to stick it where the sun don't shine. Certainly there would be a few who had the money and if it was a great driving experience, with super tires that last the life of the car, a super electric motor, and sealed systems so there was simply no need for maintenance, those few who wanted to drive without concern might enjoy it. The rest of us want to sell it when we're done, many want the value of a used car. A disposable car is great for the dealer and the wealthy guy who can afford a $25,000 expense every 5 years.
Isn't this exactly what anybody with a $420 a month car lease does (or anybody that trades in their car for the down payment on the next $420 a month car?)
Consumers love those things, but consumers eat whatever crap is put before them. Customers on the other hand require a bit of respect and insist the manufacturers design to their specs not the other way around.
Which are you....Mindless consumer or paying customer ??
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
It doesn't end there. Eventually you wont be able to build your own devices or find any that support minimal upgrading/repair. When the masses want toasters, eventually that is all that will be manufactured.
I don't like it either, but I'm not going to delude myself that we will *always* have 'open' systems. With a bit of luck ill be retired by then and i wont have to care.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
The T and W-series ThinkPads have socketed CPUs.
And the displays can be upgraded.
And the drive is removable, so you can add Blu-Ray or whatever you'd like.
And Lenovo publishes complete manuals with step-by-step instructions detailing how to disassemble everything and how to replace pretty much any part (along with a list of the FRU numbers for said parts.)
And they let you order individual parts (or you can just get them from any number of third party suppliers.)
And replacing CRUs doesn't void the warranty.
Your turn.
The real litigious bastards...
That might void the warranty.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
We'd have to ask, "did pocket calculators used to be commonly user-upgradable?"
your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
If Apple were a monopoly I would get all the geek hand wringing over how serviceable their computers are, but they aren't by a long shot. As such this speculation makes no sense to me. Perhaps it's because I remember a time when a "PC" meant it came from IBM, or one of a few people who licensed bits of the technology from them. There was no choice.
Today I can build my own from Newegg. I can buy a generic pre-made box from Dell or HP, Acer or PacBell, or hundreds of others. I can buy sexy form-factor machines from Apple, Alienware (a dell company), Sony, Asus, and Shuttle. Tablets and phones that didn't exist even 5 years ago are now widely and cheaply available and have more power than a 10 year old "PC". Pogoplug and Raspberry PI are putting computers where people never thought they would exist.
The notion that an Apple Laptop's "sealed" nature is limiting consumer choice is laughable. Consumers have a lot of choice, and they are choosing a product that they like. Perhaps it's not the right laptop for much of Slashdot, but a lot of consumers are voting with their dollars.
It reminds me a lot about cars in the 80's when the new smog standards and computers came out. "I can't work on this in my driveway" all the old guys said. I need expensive computer gear to fix it that only a shop can own. Some of the new parts require specialized tools that are very expensive! Turns out most consumers didn't change their own oil or adjust their own timing, so the fact that the new computers and tech made a tune up every 50,000 or 100,000 miles rather than 3,000 with points and a carburetor more than offset the fact they couldn't work on it themselves. The benefits to consumers greatly outweighed any of the drawbacks.
I think the computer world is making the same transition. I remember a Toshiba laptop circa 1997 that had a NiCad battery that wouldn't even last an hour, and in less than a year of use wouldn't hold a charge at all. I kept two spares when traveling, and swapped them out. The battery better have been user replaceable in that thing. Now, with modern tech, folks are getting 10 hours out of Apple laptops and tablets, and seeing 5-7 year battery life with minimal degradation. People don't buy spare batteries anymore, even when they are modular. Tech has advanced, so now people want the thinner, lighter more than the replaceable battery.
As long as you can go to any of a hundred other vendors and get modular laptops and desktops complaining about one vendor who makes them non-serviceable is stupid. People have choice, and are voting with their dollars.
I've been using mac laptops since 05 and I have, *every time*, had problems with the battery and needed to upgrade the ram. With the new design I've just said no more. For less money I'm going to get a tablet (not an ipad) and a tower.
On a final note, does no one else realise that Apple is doing what Microsoft has been so heavily criticised for, but no one is mad at Apple for it?
I am not just going to agree with the popular view. In other words I have bad Karma.
Seriously, it's great if laptop makers can truly build upgradeable machines that don't sacrifice reliability in the process. But I remember the era of Dell laptops with socketed CPUs and upgradable video cards, and it wasn't all roses and unicorns.
I believe it was the old Latitude CP series where the CPU used to work itself loose from its socket over time, resulting in a system that refused to boot. (One of the "fixes" that used to get one going again was pressing down hard with the palm of one's hand near the center of the keyboard. The keyboard assembly happened to be right over the CPU and would flex enough to allow re-seating the chip, at least for a while.)
The models with the supposedly upgradeable video cards turned out to be more hype than substance too, because the type of video boards they took were proprietary, and no longer manufactured at all after 2 or 3 variations went through their initial production runs.
Ultimately, even on desktop PCs, expansion capabilities really don't get people too far.... Sure, you can upgrade processors -- until AMD or Intel goes and changes the design of the socket and pin layout. Then you're just as stuck as the next guy with his CPU soldered onto the motherboard. Same issue with RAM. Most machines only provide between 2 and 4 DIMM sockets, with a motherboard chipset unable to map/use more than a certain amount of memory. So what usually happens? The RAM upgrade becomes a nice thing to have initially, for the folks who tried to go cheap on the initial system purchase and selected less RAM than was optimal to save a few bucks. They get the chance to "buy now and pay later" to put the RAM in that probably should have really been there from the start. But down the road? You wind up saying "Gee... I'd like to upgrade this PC to 16GB of RAM but the board only supports 8. Oh well...."
Don't get me wrong... I like having a machine I can service myself if I determine a part died. And I've usually upgraded hard drives in most machines I've owned, as well as adding RAM to some, or upgrading the video in my higher-end machines. But as we demand ever lighter weight, slimmer portables with more and more functionality - we're really demanding technology that doesn't have any room for spare sockets, cables and connectors. It all depends on what the goal is, really. Expandability and modularity comes at a price of taking up extra space. Apple is big on going "cutting edge" with the "how small can we make this?" question on their minds -- so it makes perfect sense they wound up where they did, with not even so much as a removable laptop battery.
Your beloved Lenovo is doing it too:
"We should also point out that this memory is actually soldered to the system's motherboard. So whatever configuration you get from the factory, be it 4GB or 8GB, that's what you've got for good, period."[source]
The answer is simple enough....don't buy Apple. One of the reasons I bought my current portable, an Asus EEE E350 netbook, is because it has plenty of upgrade options. i was able to upgrade from the default 2Gb to 8Gb of faster RAM for less than $30, there are plenty of tutorials showing how to replace the screen with a touch if you like, or replace the HDD with an SSD, there are even tools to OC or UC the APU if I want more speed or battery life, as well as third party batteries that will let me have all day usage if I need it, although i find the 5-6 hours i get plenty.
Just because Apple is the hipster brand doesn't mean you have to buy it, its not like we don't have plenty of choices. This is why I've built my own desktops for over 15 years, because not only do I get a better quality system at a cheaper price, but I can have it the way I want it, not the way some OEM thinks is best.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
I think the only ports they added over the Air is a second Thunderbolt port (that you can use with literally nothing)
They added USB 3.0. Perhaps you've heard of it?
Thuderbolt has a number of things you can do with it, from true GigE to multiple storage options, and of course also displays - like multiple monitors should you so desire...
But even without all that you can add an expresscard adaptor via Thunderbolt and have all THOSE options too.
I'm not sure why Apple decided to go with the "Pro" brand
Because it's a pretty fast system and also has a pro-level display.
Oh, and with the higher DPI screen that nothing bothers to support.
You mean besides the whole OS, all Apple software (like Safari and Final Cut X) and a number of third party apps (since mostly you just need a few new assets and a recompile to support it).
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Only for the uneducated. It's not sealed box to me. but then the old codgers whined how all electronics were becoming dosposable when we stopped using tubes and started with the new flangled Integrated circuits.
And then I heard the same thing when surface mount stuff became popular....
Only the old codgers or uneducated will see it as a sealed box. The rest of us hackers will still find our way inside and modify or extend the life of these items.
Last TWO ipads I have owned were 100% free. as the previous owner dropped them and broke the screen.. I buy new screen off of ebay and replace the broken one. now I have a $900.00 64gig 3G ipad 2 for the $58.00 the screen cost me and 1 hour of my time.
I love what apple is doing, it means I will get a lot more free stuff as the uneducated throw it away or believe it has no value.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
The answer is simple enough....don't buy Apple.
I wouldn't quite say "simple" for a lot of folks, myself included. There are two reasons why I ended up going with a unibody MacBook Pro (2009-era) when my last laptop died: It has a decently sturdy build quality (much better than the Dell I gave up) and, when something goes wrong, I can take it to a human, point out exactly what's wrong, and say, "Fix it" rather than play phone and shipping tag with some contracted-out support company. At the time, upgradability didn't factor into my decision; it was just as upgradeable as every other system I considered. Since I purchased this machine, I've upped the RAM from 4 GB to 8 GB and swapped the rotational hard drive for an SSD. I've also had to use the Genius Bar to address a charging issue (1 hour of my time, vs. 2-3 months getting the run-around with Toshiba for my wife's previous laptop; there's a brand I'll never touch again).
(Mac OS? It's nice because it has the Unix command line utilities I'm accustomed to; Cygwin and Interix are clunky at best. UI isn't as nice as Windows 7, though.)
Now that Apple has removed the upgradability feature, I'm not quite sure where I'll go next.
This is why I've built my own desktops for over 15 years, because not only do I get a better quality system at a cheaper price, but I can have it the way I want it, not the way some OEM thinks is best.
Oh, I definitely build my own desktops. Laptops are a different beast, though; because the form factors are non-standard, it's difficult to find parts which play nicely. You can't just add a dedicated graphics card, for example, and the motherboard+screen+case are pretty much a unit (though your example of replacing the EEE's screen for a touch-enabled one is impressive).
Such has been true with all other consumer electronics for years. The only way manufacturers can stay in business is to force the consumer to replace it when it breaks. The best way to accomplish this is to declare all of the technology included in the product to be proprietary and a trade secret. Then not allow repair literature or replacement parts to be freely distributed. Second, hyper inflate any repair parts to cost more than an entire new unit although they really cost pennies to create. And third, offer new models which only tweak minor functions but change superficial properties to engage the consumer in the illusion that newer is cooler and better. And you people just keep confirming that their evil plan works by buying the crap. Demand quality. Demand sustainable technology.
Don't confuse "pc gamer" with "power user." I hear a lot of people call themselves power users, but the real truth is their only "power" is their ability to constantly upgrade their pc every 3 months to play the latest game. I know this all too well being a seasoned software engineer that used to host huge 100+ person rented facility lan parties on a regular basis. Macbooks are extremely popular with developers and actual power users in a plethora of professions from graphics design, server development (c, c++, java), publishing, mobile development, etc. I hear this analogy from many games who think themselves hackers.
> MBP is a professional workstation
How, with it's dual-core (ok, now quad-core stock) and consumer-grade gpu, processor, and RAM is it a professional workstation? Do tell...
As far as interchangable parts for laptops go, get a thinkpad. Most models of the thinkpad (especially the "R" and "T" series) kept on using similar interchangeable parts and form factors. Not only are these easier to upgrade, but to keep on going if something fails.
You made your trade off decision. There is no fault in choosing Apple. But if you felt your Laptop needed to be more configurable then you should have gone with someone else.
I had Macs for the past 10 years. When they went uni-body I switch to a Think Pad. (for many reasons) but one of the reason was the problem I had with all my previous macs was after a few years the battery would die, (some of them actually had bent my case a bit). But I could always replace the battery. The new ones say that it isn't an issue and that I should Trust Apple... But I don't so I went with a system where I could replace the battery if needed.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
I think all of you are posers. I only use Workstation class laptops. i7 3.5ghz and workstation Nvidia graphics card. My dell precision is 900X better than your toy asus will ever be in it's life
The Dell Precision M6600 weighs almost eight US pounds. That makes is 3.5 times the PC that an ASUS EEE is, and only 90 times the PC that a Raspberry Pi is.
Fortunately, many of us use computers for something other that weight training,
Let me guess, you think your Chevy Aveo is as good as that BMW 325 you see pass you going to work every day.... how cute.
And I'm guessing that you think being stuck in traffic in a BMW would make you better than the people who zip past you on bicycles. There's the car analogy, are we done yet?
For those of us who wanted a real computer, the kind you can get into and tinker with, we built one from parts.
Ahhh..... a real computer is defined by being able to tinker with it.
And silly me thought a computer is a tool to get work done.
The key point, of course, is that if you want to pack a lot of features and computing power into a tiny space, there's no room for anything that is not absolutely essential. Thus the iPhone, iPad, and Mac laptops. It would be great, I suppose, if users could replace the batteries in these machines. But it should not be a make-or-break feature.
If you want an upgradeable machine, then buy a desktop machine. There's no absolute need to squeeze components into every cubic millimeter of space. Surely the author of that Computer Age article understood this when he discussed his ancient PowerMac 8500 -- the reason it was so upgradeable was because there was available space inside that box.
I have an iPhone, and will use it until it breaks or until it becomes unusable due to total obsolescence. I also have two desktop Macs that I use constantly (and two or three older ones that are sitting in a closet). I've upgraded the RAM in the Power Mac G5, but won't add more RAM to the newer Mini until I have to. (When I do, it'll be easy.)