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The Worst Apple Store In America — An Employee Confession
Cutting_Crew writes "Gizmodo has a piece that describes one of the worst and most corrupt Apple stores. Two employees recount management exchanging brand new computers for face-lifts (and other things), not just from customers, but also from businesses. Other common activities ranged from destroying devices repeatedly and ringing up new ones (for themselves and friends as fake customers) to outright stealing merchandise and cash. Customers may have also lost their data if they weren't polite when coming in for a repair, or the 'Genius' help may have been intoxicated."
Consider the source always. This is not the first hack piece written by them. They were caught knowingly purchasing stolen goods but got off on the technicality of being part of the "press". It is not supposed to be a license to get out of jail.
Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
OK, I can believe the management is a bit corrupt, but are you seriously trying to tell me a bunch of hipsters barely making minimum wage goofed off and stole from their employer??
this is an outrage!
-Lod
Exactly, how credible is this source and the source that they are quoting?
That's not the worst of it. One of them tried to sell me a computer with two year old specs at twice the price of a new one anywhere else.
In addition to purchasing stolen goods, they also attempted extortion. All that aside, those assholes have been on my shit list for a lot longer than that, ever since the stunt that got them banned from the Consumer Electronics Show.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
But were any of their previous hack pieces about Apple? Last I read Gizmodo, they were still massive Apple fanboys, to the point of unreadability.
They were caught knowingly purchasing stolen goods but got off on the technicality of being part of the "press". It is not supposed to be a license to get out of jail.
Actually, being a member of the press is supposed to help you stay out of jail.
Even judges think so, otherwise we'd be locking up every journalist that published classified documents.
I think your understanding of the First Amendment needs refreshing.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
Consider the source always. This is not the first hack piece written by them. They were caught knowingly purchasing stolen goods but got off on the technicality of being part of the "press". It is not supposed to be a license to get out of jail.
Sound advice, I'll start by considering you, aristotle-dude.
Who are you, and do you work for Apple?
A bad store manager can leave a lasting trail of damage. Sounds like this store had a bad one and it rubbed off on the employees.
I don't see how this is a noteworthy story though... In any large retail operation you will have some bad "apples". It also sounds like Apple found out and fired most of them.
Natural != (nontoxic || beneficial)
Businesses don't use Apple!
Since when does quoting some bullshit IM conversation count as an "article"?
Anyway, somewhere in that IM transcript was mentioned the possibility that there was a lack of accountability on a regional basis. If anything else in this article is true, then I buy that as the explanation. I know a few ex-Apple-retail-staff and they paint a very different picture. As for the boozing mentioned in the "article", one of my sources told me that so much as a whiff of alcohol on your breath during working hours and you could get terminated instantly. But hey, maybe they're a bit more "lax" in the southwest where the article claims to have its incidents take place. Something about boozing in the desert or something.
People steal from work! News at 11!
This is what infidelity insurance is for!
Operation Guillotine is in effect.
'Customers may have also lost their data if they weren't polite when coming in for a repair, or the 'Genius' help may have been intoxicated."'
Sorry but this ranks right up there with having gf or self porn copied off your systems. Should the tech be doing this stuff? Of course not. That doesn't mean you shouldn't own your own responsibility for your bad attitude or incompetence. This is no different than getting spit in your food if you are the ass who shows up 5 mins before closing or you condescend to the people making your food.
Sorry, if you want to be dick, snarky, or a condescending prick you deserve what karma serves you.
We try to... see wikileaks.
The first amendment was never intended to be license for just any misbehavior or licentiousness or criminal misdeeds. It's protection specifically, with regard to the press, protects them from prosecution for things they say or print. It doesn't permit them to lie, cheat, and steal... by which I mean they cannot perjure themselves, commit fraud, or commit larceny with impunity. Freedom of the press is not a blanket permit to do whatever they feel like.
Is this how bad the hype on freakin' Apple is getting? The fanboys and girls just can't get enough so that now they're all hyped on reading reviews on the fucking stores? Stores? It isn't enough we have to endure sanctimonious drivel about how cool their iWhoGivesAFuck is, now we have to endure commentary on their stupid fucking stores. Get a grip people. What's next? Are they going to start writing essays on the possible ways Wozniak washes his balls?
-- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
So, I broke Slashdot tradition and read TFA.
Short version:
This store was staffed by, and managed by, a bunch of power-mad dicks who were all either fired or left. Several employees were caught stealing or scamming the system, and fired and forced to pay for what they stole, and now the system is harder to scam.
Isn't that how it's supposed to work? Bad people are forced out, and system is improved to limit the behavior of bad actors? I mean, I get it, we all hate Apple, (STEVE JOBS WAS AN EVIL THIEF!) but I don't quite see the story here. Tellingly, the main storyteller, "Ronald" is still unemployed, presumably because his past references are something to the effect of "this guy stole our stuff and abused our customers" and now trying to get some some of satisfaction by trashing his employer for not stopping him from being a huge dick?
So if a member of the press commits murder, you'll let them walk?
Ever since Judy Miller went to jail for that noblest of causes the Bush Administration, the US media has loved this idea that being part of the press exempts you from criminal prosecution. I am not a lawyer, but as far as I know it does not, has not, and should not.
I believe strongly in a free press and I disagree with many excuses made for keeping information hidden ("national security", "intellectual property", etc.), but I among other things do not think that "journalists" should traffic in stolen property. Nor is being a "journalist" an excuse for Gizmodo's general sleaze factor.
This is not the first hack piece written by them
You're right, usually they are writing hack pieces in favor of apple and trashing Windows and Android. I used to have them in my news feed. Lately, most of what I get are articles about how awesome apple is and how great the new iGadget is going to be...
The gluttony. The vanity. The greed. The envy. The fear. The partying. The debauchery. The sex. The humanity.
We have it all.
Apple geniuses.
---
How is that for a commercial?
You can't handle the truth.
Those are the worst bartenders in town. A genius would know to stock up on vodka.
If you mod me down the terrorists will have won
Seems that the "whistle-blowers" in this case have been found and fired by Apple quite a while ago, the main one telling us how bad he was still unemployed for obvious reasons.
All that is left is sour grapes for being a lying-thieving-drugtaking-douche at work and being caught.
Gizmodo posts hysterical article about Apple!
It doesn't permit them to lie, cheat, and steal... by which I mean they cannot perjure themselves, commit fraud, or commit larceny with impunity. Freedom of the press is not a blanket permit to do whatever they feel like.
As far as I know it is not illegal to lie. Making lies illegal would cause a problem as soon as two stories differ from each other, for example when the government says one thing and the press another. Since the government controls the law they can pretty much conclude that the official story is the truth and say that anyone who claims that the official story is false is a liar.
Even if the source is not credible does not mean that types of crime as outlined in TFA does not take place in Apple shop (or any other store)
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
.... great douchebaggery.
How is this any different than the Geeksquad v1.0 fiasco where they were systematically violating privacy rights and stealing porn? There may be a difference as far as who was on the short end of the stick (as far as my porn stash vs. Apple's iPod stash), but regardless, it's a pretty classic case of giving low level workers high level authorization, without the proper regulations/oversight in place (think about the recent photos of morons stepping on the food they've prepared, etc.)
Generally, worst-case scenario is that a bartender or waiter hooks their buddies up with free drinks. But as TFA suggests, Apple didn't seem to set the bar too high when picking who would watch over its top-shelf product.
Sure, and you're well known as one of the most rabid Apple fanboys on Slashdot, so I guess by your logic we shouldn't listen to you either?
Doesn't mean what they're reporting isn't true.
They don't sell anything here.
All they do is polish stuff that kids have wiped McDonalds all over and feel important.
How does the First Amendment protect you from purchasing known-stolen goods?
As far as my "limited understanding" that may need refreshing, the first Amendment protects your right to free speech in the face of the government.
Buying stolen goods that you know are stolen is not free speech.
If you steal, murder, rape as a journalist you will still go in prison. They got off lightly.
Kinda like the "stolen/leaked" iPhone story.
Marketing genius. If I'm making a gadget that looks exactly like the last gadget, I'll cook up a story with a reporter about how this amazing top secret gadget got stolen from my secret Bat-lair and exposed to the public... thus generating the storm of publicity that will get millions of hipster douchebags to camp out in front of my stores for 3 days to buy my latest indistinguishable-from-my-last-one gadget. I mean, how about that? My company's biggest fans read Gizmodo, and how coincidental Gizmodo gets my "stolen" "next-gen" gadget?
Not that Apple did that or anything ;-) but it sounds like a good marketing plan ;-)
Cool story, Jobs!
That I'm right, and you don't like it, doesn't mean I'm a troll.
So it turns out Apple store employees aren't angels, sounds like every other tech store
even if the source is correct, how does it affects Apple... and more over there always are few loops in the system...
That I am NOT special despite it clearly saying so on my corporate mug? Well, DAMN!
Does that also mean all my co-workers are also not special? ALRIGHT!
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
-Apple now more valueable than microsoft
-Apple patent trolling samsung like a champ
-Apple stores being reported as corrupt
Apple has taken microsoft's place as dominant bully in the pc market, and microsoft seems to be fading quickly into a still important but not exciting company, like IBM.
So who is the new apple? We need a rebel alliance, right? Well, maybe this will finally be the year of the linux desktop.
But.... probably not.
Unless we get something radically new, we're going to keep up this trend of pc design stagnation that we established around the turn of the millenium for many years to come.
Genius is a relative term. These sales clerks work in Apple Stores. Compared to their customers, they are most certainly geniuses. People give monster cables a bad rep but compared to Apple cables, they are a BARGAIN! Why yes, a DVI to dsub connector, that be 20 euro please. COME ON! You fall for that, your knuckles are dragging across the floor.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Couldn't Apple have payed their wage slaves better so they wouldn't want to risk their jobs by thieving?
Also, Apple has very invasive hiring practices with the excuse to stop bad Apples. Doesn't work at all it seems, so why the invasive hiring practices?
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Ahh yes, "we" are the reason other people have no morals or ethics.
Some people always try to find a way to blame the "fanboys"...
The only people to blame here are those engaging in the acts mentioned.
Oh I don't know about that... there are lots of licenses to get out of jail.
I won't just consider the source. I'll consider my experience. It surprises me not at all that Apple is nothing more than a really shiny Best Buy. There may be a good number of tech savvy Apple users, but the majority are not. And those people are begging to be exploited. Corruption isn't a crime of character as much as it is a crime of opportunity and it's a human condition. That this happens within Apple's doors only speaks of a variety of side-effects of their image, customer base, and of course, their cool and relaxed manner.
The story also smacks of "Waiting" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0348333/). It's not a crowd I feel comfortable with. I do, however, understand the risks of doing business in organizations with images like these. So yeah, for some things and in limited amounts, I will risk my dollars and time in limited amounts at Best Buy. Apple stores? Not so much... the prices are too high for the risk.
It makes me wonder... it has always made me wonder why Apple gear is increasingly a completely sealed box with no removable anything. That is the main reason I will not buy any more Apple stuff unless it is user servicable. Is Apple's reason for doing so their employees? Or customers? Both? My initial thought was to prevent creating 3rd party markets for batteries and other compatible parts... and I still think so. But this practice also puts customers at further risk of exploitation... and as has been acknowledged since time immemorial... ...corruption is a crime of opportunity.
It's not only a matter of "if" it will happen, it's a matter of when and how often and it should be a given that it WILL happen. So I'd like to say this happens "everywhere, not just at Apple" which is kind of true. But I'd like to add that Apple make is more possible for a wide variety of reasons.
They were caught knowingly purchasing stolen goods but got off on the technicality of being part of the "press". It is not supposed to be a license to get out of jail.
Actually, being a member of the press is supposed to help you stay out of jail. Even judges think so, otherwise we'd be locking up every journalist that published classified documents.
I think your understanding of the First Amendment needs refreshing.
But this was about knowingly buying stolen property and extortion. What's next, Al Capone doesn't even go to jail for tax evasion because he's working for the Chicago Tribune? The anti-Untouchables?
Of course news about a fake are Fake News.
Since the government controls the law they can pretty much conclude that the official story is the truth and say that anyone who claims that the official story is false is a liar.
Hmm. Instead I'd say that there's a 50/50 chance of either telling lies. Ergo, imprison them both for half the standard sentence length.
I divide babies for breakfast.
...this is retail America. This happens at every retail chain and it only gets attention here because it's Apple.
Being a member of press doesn't give you free reign to commit crimes. The first amendment isn't some shield that lets you do whatever you want.
It means you can write about whatever you want, and you can protect your sources, but blanket immunity? Nope.
Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
The government accepts your offer and imprisons the journalist, and you for lying when you said the government lied.
Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
Do Ronald and Jake seriously expect us to believe any of this and won't go public with their real identity out of fear as to what Apple would do. Unless they and Gizmodo name names this entire story is worthless ....
AccountKiller
But. My wife's macbook came from Computers Now in south Melbourne. When it started running slow we took it back to the store. They dragged their heels on the job and I eventually decided to take the machine back. The computer they returned to me had a different metal top cover which was badly scratched. They faked up the sheet which I signed which had purportedly shown the damage when I dropped the laptop off. We argued with them about it but eventually had to accepted a damaged and not repaired computer.
And the Apple store in Doncaster fixed the problem (a broken SATA cable) for 30 bucks as well as upgrading the OS. It took one day.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
I believe freedom of the press applies to all Americans, and not just journalists - unless you can point me to any such similiar wording in the Constitution.
My gripe with them and folks like them is they don't learn. If they were part of righteous cause or something I could understand but their publishing a blog about Apple products for crying out loud.
After the whole missing iPhone incident and now a string of others you'd think they'd have the sense to say "whew barely got out of that scrape" and move on. Lots of parties are not really happy with the way things shook out. Apple, certainly isn't, local law enforcement likely not, and probably others. Apple controls more dollars than most nation states and as we all know law enforcement has a huge tool box with which to harass folks they are not found of. Even if you are on each others enemies list, you really should want to stay off their radar.
Not saying Gizmodo needs to get out of Dodge or anything like that but they really really should avoid doing things like publishing this that only serve to rub salt in the wounds of the 800lb gorilla.
Its not as if this is a story that needed to be brought to light. Its no secret that low wage retail employees tend to engage in this type of behavior. The only way you could not know if you have never so much as spoken to any who has ever worked retail at any point in their lives!
Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
Perhaps you should do a little studying. "Freedom of the press" does not mean freedom of those in the business of selling news. It means freedom of the people to use printing presses to publish what they would like. The First Amendment does not give special protection to the news media. From the perspective of the Framers of the Constitution calling someone a "member of the press" would be like us calling someone a "member of the Internet".
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
An AC got upvoted +5 for a blatant troll? I'd say there are some people who are definitely not "true believers" on here!
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
just underlines it you can't find reasonable staff (at any price)
http://www.hackintosh.com/
Anybody want to share any tips? What are the checks & balances that can help detect problems such as those in the article?
I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
This article is a bit unfair to Apple- the issues in this article extend to many retail stores, not just Apple. Heck, I worked at a chocolate store in college and saw many of the same things. But, I guess Apple anything gets page views.
In addition, there is no federal law banning discrimination based on sexual orientation, so the article is incorrect about that.
They're fanboys of Apple products but have largely been highly critical of the company itself.
Genius tactic: ban whoever reports something negative about you, so they look vengeful and unreliable the next time they report something negative; added bonus of others being to scared to report negative stuff. Go Apple!
> I think your understanding of the First
> Amendment needs refreshing.
I'd say the same about yours, but you can't refresh something that doesn't exist.
Sounds like going to Best Buy.
How exactly is a willingness to purchase stolen goods to get information not consistent with a source being a good source of information? As a consumer of journalism I want journalists that go the extra mile.
I'd be more surprised if none of this happened. It's retail. Like the cliche goes, it takes one bad apple.....
They did not attempt extortion. Apple made a request and Gizmodo said yes provided it was a formal request, in writing not a phone call. Steve Jobs considered that extortion, because he believed rightly, the purpose of the formal request was to generate a story which would generate page views. That's not remotely extortion.
This is exactly the kind of story that a blog about Apple should be covering. You may be questioning whether journalists should be covering Apple but given the high level of public interest I don't see any reason they shouldn't be covered.
As for intimidation. Every small town newspaper publishes stuff that the mayor or the police chief doesn't like. Everyday journalists covering the national story go up against big corporations and government officials with tremendous power and budget. Go abroad and their are journalists in China reporting on abuses who get sent to forced labor. There were journalists in Egypt that got taken in by government forces and shot.
No Gizmodo shouldn't back down because Apple is unhappy.
After it was exposed how little Apple Store employees are paid, it doesn't seem to be much of a stretch to understand the lack of loyalty among the work force. I was in a huge national chain grocery store with millions of dollars of stock and sales, and was shocked to see the store manager wearing shoes with holes in them, and threadbare slacks, he almost looked like a homeless guy. When you underpay your employees, they will take what they think they deserve, with good cause. If America continues down this path, soon American workers will be like old Soviet workers, taking whatever they can steal to sell. Apple is the richest company ever, and pays Apple Store employees so little it's morally shameful. You must respect your employees and pay them a fair percentage of your profits to maintain a healthy company. Apple may be rich, but Apple's also sick.
No one involved in wikileaks as a journalist has been jailed for wikileaks. Both the NYTimes and the Guardian have offices in the USA.
In Soviet Russia, that didn't build you.
"I don't think it's selfish, to eat defenseless shellfish." -NOFX
Generally the possession requires the goods were part of commerce to qualify for the crime. Using the goods for purposes of notifying the public may not be considered commerce. Otherwise lots of journalists who get information could be charged under the stolen goods clauses.
Cigarette companies used to make a similar argument about executives who violated their contracts and spoke about chemical additives to cigarettes to journalists. Since they were under an NDA the journalists was engaging in tortious interference....
The courts said that those sort of bans would undermine journalism.
Retail employees start at $11.91 on average. Minimum wage is anywhere from $5.15 to $8.25. So Apple starts their retail sales people between 100+% to 40% above minimum wage. Please clarify what you mean by "barely". Geniuses get larger wages as they have more skills. Now I don't know if you've ever worked in retail sales where most people are part-time and sometimes temporary and get no benefits but starting at much higher than minimum and getting benefits seems to be a good deal to me.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
"A really shiny Best Buy?" You're kidding, right?
This is a company that makes consumer electronics and computers. It built and maintains two operating systems, including its own browsers, email clients, etc. It contributes to a number of open source projects, and maintains its own C compiler toolchain (which it also open sourced), an IDE. It also maintains a relationship with a certified team of developers, and maintains an ecosystem of online content, including music, movies, books, etc.
Oh yeah, and it also has retail stores, which have by far the best consumer experience of any electronics store.
I can't believe this got modded up +5.
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Being a member of the press does not shield you from all laws. Shield laws protect journalists from disclosing sources only; however, Gizmodo bought property they knew to be stolen. Now if they had quickly returned it to Apple, that would have been another story. Instead they dismantled it, reported on the component, and held it ransom until Apple acknowledged that they had a prototype. So you can add extortion, violation of trade secrets, etc.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
uniforms can do it as well Hollywood video used to have really bad ones and store employee theft was high.
Now at apple be forced to wear one that says genius can get old fast and it makes people ride you for free apple stuff as well.
In theory that would only be a problem if the burden of proof was on the government to establish the actual falsity of the so called lie.
In practice, we've already seen that not to be the case.
Huge difference between breaking a contract to reveal information that can save lives and breaking criminal law to save... well nothing.
Ask Martha Stewart! When the government prosecutor doesn't have the evidence to convict you of something, they simply accuse you of lying about proclaiming innocence which is thus obstruction of justice and a felony.
Ah, thanks for the warning. I have a standing policy against reading Gizmodo - I don't particularly care about the whole "buying stolen iPhone prototypes" thing, they just have horrible technical writing and are incredible Apple-biased
lol, strong comparison
Anyone time someone says "consider the source," they've just committed argumentum ad hominem. Think about that for a moment.
I can believe that there might be an Apple Store that's this bad. Sooner or later they'll clean it up. They'll have to - it's costing them money.
I think they mean to say Apple PR reps. That's such a canned statement, I can't even believe they posted it. The update directly above that reads: "Multiple former and current Geniuses have written in to corroborate the events alleged in this article. More to come!"
:P
This whole article is surprising. I would have thought it wasn't this store that was the worst but a multi-thousand way tie between all of them, the Foxconn factory, and their HQ
This reads like a Daily Mail "article".
I read the article and was amazed at how brazen these guys were. They were committing crimes and they didn't even believe they were doing anything wrong. While Apple is far from saintly, the Geniuses behavior was no better. If the Geniuses were really that disgruntled, they should have banded together to take on Apple in a legal, socially acceptable way. The age old wisdom applies here: A divided enemy is more easily conquerable. Apple banks on the fact that its employees won't unite as they will fear for their jobs. If all of the Geniuses used their skills in technology to coordinate a nationwide work stoppage, then Apple would be forced to address and remedy these issues or suffer economic and reputation damage. If all of the Geniuses worked together, Apple would be squirming because terminating a few would be a tacit admission of guilt. Power is in the hands of the masses and hitting a corporation in its wallet is the fastest way to get it to listen and listen hard. I cannot condone criminality as a means of retribution, especially when an innocent third party become the target of the ire.
It doesn't permit them to lie, cheat, and steal... by which I mean they cannot perjure themselves, commit fraud, or commit larceny with impunity. Freedom of the press is not a blanket permit to do whatever they feel like.
As far as I know it is not illegal to lie.
Perjury is very much illegal.
Good call. But the reporting isn't so unbelievable, that "immoral people are immoral." This has little to do with Apple and more to do with individuals being deceptive treacherous douche bags.
The "southwest" call center has got to be Austin. I'd bet these jokers are in San Antonio.
Not saying Gizmodo needs to get out of Dodge or anything like that but they really really should avoid doing things like publishing this that only serve to rub salt in the wounds of the 800lb gorilla. Its not as if this is a story that needed to be brought to light. Its no secret that low wage retail employees tend to engage in this type of behavior.
Uh.. they aren't doing it out of some high-minded desire to spread truth to the masses. This type of story is a page-view goldmine which means ad dollars. Of course they're going to keep doing them.
It's funny that people are questioning the legitimacy of this...when in reality if you've ever worked retail or had friends work retail you know that things like this happen ALL the time; especially in big box stores like Wal-Mart & Target. Anyone in retail will tell you that the #1 source of thefts in stores are the employees. It happens in computer repair facilities too, replace parts that aren't bad, then scrub the inventory and take it home, steal the customer's 3rd party hardware...it's relatively common. The more profitable the company, the more hidden the losses are the from the books, the easier it is to steal. If you stole from a small business they'd notice it in a heartbeat, when you're a huge corporation it's harder to control or even notice until there is nothing you can do about it. If Apple continues as the world's largest corporation, they will continue to be plagued by this, it doesn't mean they will lose much profitability, just that it's not even a scrape to their behemoth profits.
The way you describe it. Gizmodo was trying to sell an item, that they knew was stolen, back to its rightful owner with conditions designed to generate additional financial gain by generating their own "news" story at the expense of the owner. Sounds like extortion to me.
These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
Taco Bell in our area starts people at $10.50. Target starts them at $11.
"Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
Particularly the "intoxicated" part.
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
So, get this: there's good apples and there's bad apples :P
I can't believe how far up your ass the late Steve Job's cock still is.
They make it illegal for the News in Canada to tell lies. It's a pretty simple concept.
Really? In Canada Legal min wage is 10.75 or so. Did not know we have it so much better than you guys.
Apple Stores are run by humans, subject to human nature. Film at 11.
Coming up next: sky is blue, water is wet.
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
Ad hominem and non sequitur.
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Simply out of my own curiosity, can you clarify this for me? You were that upset by a harmless although juvenile stunt of turning off televisions you put a tech blog on your s-list? Don't misread my question. I am not advocating their behavior, or any actions as they relate to CES or unlawful possession of an iPhone.
Reference:
http://gizmodo.com/343348/confessions-the-meanest-thing-gizmodo-did-at-ces
I hate all sigs, even this one.
legal minimum wage is 7.25. Variances by region drive prices up and down due to cost of living. Compounded by the fact that minimum wage is only 70% of what it was after inflation from 30 years ago it turns out retail is about 10% above it. It's a better deal than low-level retail but it's no picnic of a wage.
Genuine question - Which opensource projects did Apple contribute to in the last year?
Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
and you aren't the first Apple apologist defending a truely evil company....
Let's not limit it to just the sub site of Gizmodo. The whole of Gawker media reeks of this type of "bloggerism" (they are not journalists). The only saving grace that Gawker has seems to be LifeHacker or possibly iO9.
They were purchasing stolen goods to return them to the rightful owner - after the thorough inspection of course. Kinda like a government does when someone flies a foreign airplane into their territory.
I'm aging rapidly, I bought a new game and had no idea if my machine was good for it.
basic way to do this cleanly is to have the ENTIRE store report for a meeting held by the regional LP director. As each person shows up have them place all company controlled property on the table in front of them. When everybody is there then the LP person announces 2 things 1 a series of 1 on 1 "meetings" 2 that as of NOW he is the only Company Employee present.
Of course Criminal charges are a suggested next step
Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
Didn't Fox News win a case last year giving the right to lie on their news broadcasts?
Credibility explores a source's track record, particularly on relevant topics. Does Gizmodo have a track record of inaccurate or misleading articles on Apple Stores? You certainly didn't shed any light on that. Press often leaks or exposes leaks of sensitive information. That doesn't undermine trust in their accuracy. I'm not aware of any reason to distrust Gizmodo's credibility any more than I trust other news outlets, and your argument certainly isn't convincing.
I've consulted in gov and private biz. I've seen no difference other than the gov places seem to have less stress. I would say that the gov places harbor slightly more corruption but since they are non-profits it is not likely they waste anymore money than a highly profitable business. Meanwhile businesses have their profits but the larger an organization the more corruption they can afford, I admit I never thought about it in terms of profit but more in terms of how many employees there were (the two are kind of linked) but then I think I'm probably right because the non-profits have the least "profit" of the three and they only appear to be the best (by a small margin.) I would say the larger the group the more bad people work there. Just as crimes always go up because the population rises despite the crime rate declining (raw number vs a rate means the two can appear to contradict.)
When the corrupt ones are near the top the impact is greater; I've seen non-profits fall and small biz go under with just 1 person near the top. In this case the government organization is the best in that it doesn't go under and the people get replaced (somehow I doubt a mayor can foobar things too badly... again the larger the org the more damage that can be done to it.) The worst I've seen is a government funded non-profit without oversight where half the employees were corrupt - it was tiny and wouldn't have survived if it were not for a unique charter arrangement. They'd be the exception to the pattern because they lack any consequences the other three kinds have.
Actually for many procedures, the government ones are usually setup best for accountability. They can afford to have some extra step in the process to leave a paper trail. They also seem to be more political internally so being able to cover your ass seems more important. Small business barely keeps their books or knows how to operate their 10 year old computer they do pretty good despite that because they are SMALL and a human brain is involved not a mindless procedure or software (or middle manager? when did we start letting middle managers be the most stupid people in the organization?? instead of dumping the incompetent ones we seem to let them rise to the level of their incompetence.)
Extortion requires coercion. Asking for an official on the record request doesn't come remotely close to extortion. Apple may not like the idea that Gizmodo is going to make money from the return but that isn't extortion.
This has got to be the single stupidest thing I've read all week, and if you knew what I've been working on this week, you should be pretty embarrassed. Well, you're likely already embarrassed since you didn't even have the stones to post this without checking the anonymous box, but whatever.
Just because some people like a particular company's products, does not create immoral employees. If it did, Google would be burning down churches right about now, because the Fandroid community is starting to be very reminiscent of the Apple Fanboy of yesteryear.
What makes immoral employees are immoral people (or amoral people that become immoral) getting hired as employees. Period. Best Buy doesn't have a healthy fanboy crowd, yet their Geek Squad has been rung up several times for data theft, etc.
Next time, try having some facts and evidence, rather than wild guesses and irrational hatred.
Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
Not that I disagree that Canadians have it better than us in many ways, but to be fair, my experience has been that purchasing power is lower per dollar because goods tend to be more expensive in Canada. Has anyone done the math on purchasing power of minimum wage workers in Canada versus the US? That would be very interesting.
As with all things, context is king:
- It is illegal to lie as a sworn witness in a courtroom.
- It is illegal to lie as a sworn witness in a Congressional hearing.
- It is illegal to submit a false report to police.
- It is illegal to submit false documentation to many local, state, and federal agencies.
- Forgery could be argued to be lying in documentation or authenticity.
- It is illegal to sell something described as one thing, when it is actually something else (fraud).
There are other examples that I'm sure others can come up with.
Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
Anyone time someone says "consider the source," they've just committed argumentum ad hominem. Think about that for a moment.
Like many fallacies, this falls on a continuum. An information source does have a track record, and any thinking person familiar with that track record will consider it when digesting new information. It doesn't mean that once blemished, a source cannot be valid; it just means that trust is a part of evidence, and relying on trust is one of the tools at our disposal in validating information. It's not perfect, but it's not the same as argumentum ad hominem.
There are many other ways "consider the source" is used that highlight its potential validity. Campaign ads in many places must disclose their origin, because an important part of processing the information they contain is understanding the origin's motives in using certain facts, language and framing. Independent investigation of institutional crime is important because the institution can't necessarily be trusted to expose its own errors.
The obvious ones are WebKit and CUPS, but finding each project that an Apple employee is involved with is not simple.
Apple resources: https://developer.apple.com/opensource/ http://www.apple.com/opensource/
Commentary: http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/opensource/steve-jobs-effect-on-open-source/3101 http://trac.webkit.org/wiki/Companies%20and%20Organizations%20that%20have%20contributed%20to%20WebKit http://blog.openinnovation.net/2011/10/apple-contributions-to-open-innovation.html
And, for a negative to balance things out, http://www.h-online.com/open/features/Kernel-Log-Apple-streamlines-CUPS-1435991.html
What about leaks? Not just Wikileaks?
All leaks are stolen information, stolen goods. Explain that please.
Because it's a crime, and criminals aren't the most trusted sort?
Awesome. That kind of attitude potentially bolsters a source's credibility. It's easy to be critical of those we despise; being critical of those we adore is a hallmark of introspection.
This type of activity constantly and consistently occurs at any point of sale store. high turn over rate and they will hire anyone.
After coming into contact with a religious man I always feel I must wash my hands. Friedrich Nietzsche
Hate to break it to you true believers, but the only reason you are reading about just-above-minimum wage retail employees drinking, stealing, and fucking around is because of true believers like yourself.
You can try to point fingers at gizmodo, but the root cause is really you.
Logic fail. And by "logic fail", I mean "really, really stupid". It's an asinine statement lacking any sort of thought or reason.
People who say "sheeple" have about as much sophistication as an AOL user, and in fact are probably actually AOL users.
It most certainly is.
People who say "sheeple" have about as much sophistication as an AOL user, and in fact are probably actually AOL users.
They were purchasing stolen goods to return them to the rightful owner - after the thorough inspection of course. Kinda like a government does when someone flies a foreign airplane into their territory.
Oh that's funny!
Totally altruistic motive! Of course! Will they buy my stolen bike from the cocksucker who stole it so they can rightfully return it to me? ;)
Canadians don't have health care tied to jobs but in the US you have people working 39.5 or even 39.75 with no health care.
What about leaks? Not just Wikileaks?
All leaks are stolen information, stolen goods. Explain that please.
Log in please.
What are the most trusted sources? State run media? Sources that repackage press releases? In real life journalists frequently break laws. Richard Engel (NBC) did some terrific coverage of the Syrian insurgency, he broke a ton of Syrian laws to get the information.
I don't see the correlation you claim exists.
Based on what? Cite some law, any case where something that minor was found to constitute coercion.
That's the image they're selling, but it's certainly not always (or even mostly!) true, and "by far" goes a little too... far. Even going into an Apple store to simply buy an extra laptop charger has been more frustrating, to me, than visiting the Target or Fry's nearby.
In my limited experience, Apple store employees are focused heavily on attempting to sell the new, expensive products on people that come in, while more pedestrian needs (checking out people who come in for accessories, assisting those with technical issues) are a far secondary.
The lack of dedicated cashiers/registers is also often an issue at busy Apple stores. The convenience of processing a credit card anywhere in the store can easily be overshadowed by the multitudes of people trying to buy something, but being unable to find a free employee to process their transaction. There's little to no concept of queuing at an Apple store, as the 'register area' in the back of the store are not consistently manned by employees.
That said, I suspect these frustrations are known and intended by those that designed the Apple store experience; the point isn't to provide decent customer service, it's to sell product.
Contrast that with the many retail companies that haven't "built and maintained two operating systems, including [their] own browsers, email clients, etc.", who need you to return to their stores, and have to rely on a decent shopping experience and customer service, since they sell the same products as their competitors.
LegendMUD
Agreed. It was actually easier before, when not allowing javascript from any of the Gawker sites prevented any content from being displayed.
LegendMUD
Wow, swoosh with your comprehension skils and those that modded you insightful. He said the reason you are "reading" about them and the article, not that you agree or disagree with the content of the article or someones doings. Gizmodo posts a non story, fan boys all read it and get excited about it and discuss it. Gizmodo will repeat these type of non stories because you the fan boy will read it and get excited about it again and again.
If this same story was posted about a local 7-Eleven store, no one would give a shit, no one would read, and no one would comment on it.
I can, if you like.
I used to own a small company (myself and 2 others started it, it grew to 8 people when we sold it, so it was never large.) By far the largest expense every year was the trade show budget. Even building (as far as union labour allows) our own booth / tearing it down / manning it ourselves / sharing hotel rooms, a trade show averaged to ~$50k, and we did two per year (NAB in Vegas and IBC in Amsterdam). if you consider the time taken out of normal working hours for all that, as well as how long we sweated over making sure the demos were as good as we could make them, it's a lot more than that.
If some clueless moron went around sabotaging the equipment that we set up "just so" to highlight what we were trying to show, I'd be furious. You get about 20 seconds to 'hook' someone hovering around your stand at a trade show, then a max of ~5 mins to show off your wares if they are interested. If *anything* goes wrong, it's game over, which is why we worked so damn hard to make our (very complex) system look effortless for every demo.
When a sale is worth ~$20k+, you have to come over as competent, what you're selling has to demonstrably do its job, and you generally have to give a good impression. None of that is achieved if you are suddenly scrambling to find why the fucking TV has turned off. You look like an incompetent maroon, and you've lost the potential sale.
To a large company, this is an inconvenience; to a small company, trade shows are lifeblood. You *need* word of mouth to consistently generate sales, and more people will talk about "that little company that made best-of-show" (which we did, twice) than something they saw in an ad, or something that a cold-call salesman phoned them up about.
Ours was a happy story, we wrote the asset management that still (to my knowledge) runs ILM (amongst others) today, and we got a pretty good deal for the company, but it was touch and go for a year or two and during those years something like this could have pushed us over the edge. Word of mouth works both ways. ... ("they don't even know how to turn on a TV"). If it had, then thats a whole bunch of people out of work, as well as a massive financial mess for me and the other two owners.
You go into business knowing it is a risk, you try to minimise that risk as much as possible, but you don't plan for self-aggrandizing idiots intentionally trying to break your company for their own financial gain. Everything the bastards at Gizmodo do is about getting more page hits and therefore more ad revenue. For them, it's all about money in their pocket, and frankly they don't give a shit about how they do it or what consequences will fall on others because of their actions.
So yeah. They're a bunch of assholes as far as I'm concerned, too.
Simon.
Physicists get Hadrons!
Yes, consider the source.
By banning Gizmodo for life, rather than some more measured punishment that a real adult would give, Apple has actually given Gizmodo more credibility on pieces that expose the dark insides of the Apple.
Apple has sent a loud, clear message to other members of the press. Toe the party line. Don't get on Apple's bad side. Don't do anything Apple doesn't like, even if it exposes the truth -- because Apple might permanently punish you. That message diminishes the credibility of other press, because, just like back in the day with Microsoft, the press dare not upset the giant.
Gizmodo now has no reason not to upset the giant. You should reserve your use of the term "hack pieces" for glowing Apple articles written by other members of the press. Consider the source.
I find it highly amusing the hypocrisy of Apple fanboys. Back in the 90's, they would point out how the press would print whatever Microsoft wanted, for fear of getting on their bad side, or losing advertising. Apple has become the very evil monster it once despised. A wannabee monopolist. A control freak that throws temper tantrums. Absolute control.
I will also point out: I was once a longtime card carrying Apple fanboy back in the heyday.
I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
Syntax Error
Return without Gosub
As far as I know it is not illegal to lie.
If you lie and spread defamatory bull crap about someone, you're committing "lie-bull" or libel.
Any time I've walked into an Apple store my only impression was that of a cacophonous den of douchebaggery. I was never led to believe the employees had any competence in the first place.
What does it have to do with mactards? People making at or near minimum wage won't take their job seriously because it is easy to find a similar crappy job somewhere else. This isn't news. Now to the extent that people think that their company of choice is infallible you can be right. But Gizmodo as mentioned has a reason to not like Apple and has a history of illegal activity so not exactly a reliable source of news. Not saying it doesn't happen at Apple stores, heck this crap happens at most stores I suspect. Just I wouldn't necessarily trust this site to report facts on anything not device teardowns.
We argued with them about it but eventually had to accepted a damaged and not repaired computer.
So basically, you let them get away with it. Good job, I'm sure that made them think twice before doing more of the same in the future.
Jalopnik too for the most part.
This isn't really an Apple issue - this is par for the course at just about any business from retail all the the way to Wall Street.
Or that Apple figured out that the vast majority of its customers (i.e., not you) don't really do stuff that requires user-servicability?
I mean, I'm pretty sure most car owners don't service their cars - the hood could be welded shut for all they care - they'll take it in for service when it needs it, they'll go to the oil change place to change the oil. They'll take it to Costco to change their tires (or a tire-change place). All operations they could do themselves, but don't. The only "maintenance" they seem to do is put gas in it.
Apple saw the same. What's the point of offering a memory slot if the majority of people buying it never change it out? SUre they COULD do it, but they don't bother (doesn't help that when it comes time to upgrade, adding more memory to a depreciated laptop (especially when it's older memory and more expensive) makes little sense).
Same with hard drives - at best they'll simply get an external USB drive and be done with it - they won't actually bother doing an internal drive upgrade.
Ditto batteries - by the time the battery wears out, your laptop's usually 2 years old. You're lucky to be able to find ANY replacement battery for it - other than perhaps "new old stock" ones which may be dead to begin with (Li-Ion/Li-Poly batteries age - after a couple of years, if the low battery protection circuit hasn't disabled the battery, it's probalby not going to hold as much charge either).
In the end, those who clamor for upgrades are extremely few. The rest seem content with getting a new laptop. And with the way technology changes, if you don't upgrade your PC the moment you buy it, it's not worth changing because the old parts it takes will be obsolete and much more expensive.
All Apple's doing is catering to the 90+% or so market that doesn't upgrade their computers after they buy it (short of buying external hard drives and such). Which means they're free to experiment with other formfactors and designs and not hindered by the need to fit stuff like slots and SATA bays and what not.
Apple's been doing this many times - they got rid of the floppy drive in the iMac (much to the horror of many people), and went all USB with it (at the time when USB-anything meant 1.1 and $expensive compared to stuff that used legacy ports).
Hell, Lion went and did away with "Save" and "Quit" as vestigal bits that harkened from earlier computing days when saving meant minutes-long waits to the floppy or tape drive, and manual memory and process management was required because automatic systems were not available (or efficient).
Ditto stuff like Mac App Store, Gatekeeper and the like - to most people, the computer is a tool - a somewhat stylish box that sits on a desk and lets them get work done, communicate with friends, family and other people, play games, etc. They don't want to be "system admins" or "computer technicians" - they just want to use it as a tool to facilitate their lives, just like a car facilitates transportation for most people (and likewise, they don't care about what makes it go or that they can tinker with the ECU to make it peppier or diagnose the "check engine" light.)
Hell, some people use Linux because they need to get work done. If some program isn't installed, they won't apt-get it, they'll ask someone what to do (which usually ends up being apt-get something). Recompiling the kernel? Not likely. Hell, they may not even install updates (which can flash in the menu bar all day).
Aha. So now that Gizmodo is banned, they are not credible. Before that, they were the source of "LOOK! How awesome itoys are!!!111" for slashdot and every fanboy on the earth.
You fanbois - always providing a good laugh.
CAPTCHA: laughing
"Anyone time someone says "consider the source," they've just committed argumentum ad hominem. Think about that for a moment."
I just did, and it's bullcrap.
Argumentum ad hominem is a concept that applies only to a debate based on formal logic. This is not a debate based on formal logic. The source is not a text which constructs an argument from universally-agreed principles, where only the logic of the argument is up for debate: it's an assertion that certain events took place. The concept of argumentum ad hominem just _doesn't apply_. We're not debating formal logic. The issue is not whether the source's logical reasoning is sound, but whether things actually happened as the source describes, and the source's credibility absolutely is a factor in trying to determine that.
Since the government controls the law they can pretty much conclude that the official story is the truth and say that anyone who claims that the official story is false is a liar.
Hmm. Instead I'd say that there's a 50/50 chance of either telling lies. Ergo, imprison them both for half the standard sentence length.
This is the government and media.
I'd say there is a 100% chance that both of them are lying in one way or another.
Nope. Federal minimum wage is $7.25, not $5.15. That "average" pay is probably an average for all employees. When I started out with Apple Retail, they offered me $8.80/hour for a sales (Mac Specialist) position. We were forbidden from discussing what we made with each other, and could be fired for it, but occasionally things leaked out. A Genius I worked with was only making $12/hour, though they offered me $16/hour when I was promoted to Genius. My first store manager was making about $60k/year, so you can probably imagine how things scale down from there. Eventually they did raise hourly wages for everyone by about $1.50/hour, but only at the expense of eliminating quarterly bonuses. The bonuses were only handed out to stores that exceeded their goals, but they were significant for people in consistently over-achieving stores.
Its not as if this is a story that needed to be brought to light.
I don't see you or other Apple fans saying that about stories covering "possible iPhone 5 specs!" or "iPad mini imminent!" rumors.
--Jeremy
Jesus was a liberal
Fuck off, you miserably biased troll.
Given some of the information in the article, as well as happening to know people who work there, this sounds like the Houston Galleria Apple store. I have a friend who worked there and would tell me about some of the shady dealings that went on while she worked there. Anyone else want to hazard a guess about which "southwestern state's" "city" that this store was in which "allows for sexual orientation discrimination" in the workplace?
-- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
"Geniuses get larger wages as they have more skills."
Most 'Geniuses' don't even know what a BIOS or UEFI is.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
wow.. it must be really high up there
I wrote my first program at the age of six, and I still can't work out how this website works.
Did they fix that? Not that I give a shit about Gizmodo, but the last time I was looking at Lifehacker, I still ran into that...
Yeah, and I think it was pretty recent (within the last month, maybe?). Just confirmed Lifehacker is reachable/viewable without allowing any javascript.
LegendMUD
They're already on the shitlist, why should they kowtow?
by Mike Buddha -- Someday the mountain might get him, but the law never will.
Did you seriously TL:DR everything after the ellipsis? Perjury is illegal, even if you're a journalist.
by Mike Buddha -- Someday the mountain might get him, but the law never will.
Cool. Thanks for the heads-up, and the confirm. Much obliged.
Ad hominem and non sequitur.
But surprisingly accurate.
by Mike Buddha -- Someday the mountain might get him, but the law never will.
Does Taco Cowboy punch babies? Sources say maybe!
Really, my response here has nothing to do with the credibility of Gizmodo in this article (they may or may not be, I honestly don't know). I just want to say that any time we defend an incredulous source of information because there might be a tiny nugget of truth buried in their lies, we only serve to give more credibility to those lies. Sort of like the Swiftboat Veterans for Truth.
+1 Disagree
I worked for BestBuy, swap out "Genius" for "Geek Squad" and stuff like that isn't entirely different.
It all depends on the management, and unfortunately, people are promoted to where they are incompetent, and in the case of BestBuy, GS wasn't destroying systems, but the entire "point to the contract" thing still applies, and the solution to EVERY problem was "reformat", They made money off of charging the user to save their data and install shovelware like Norton crap on the customer.
I've also noticed that getting actual help from an Apple Store employee has become more and more difficult, unless you're plunking down for the big new shiny. So, the last time I was there, I used their Apple Store app, which allows me to use my iPhone camera to scan the code on the item i wanted and pay for it with the credit card on file. I got what I came for, I didn't bother with any of the employees, and I got to pretend that I was shoplifting the item as I walked out the door with it. Couldn't have asked for a better experience.
-- If you're posting to be funny, and your sig is funnier . . . .
Well to be fair, Macs don't have a BIOS system and UEFI is largely irrelevant to their ability to do their jobs. While I agree with your notion that their title has nothing to do with their knowledge, at the end of the day they're able to solve most people's problems and tend to do so in a way that doesn't leave a sour taste in people's mouths (unlike your typical help desk workers).
How are sites slashdotted when nobody reads TFAs?
Perjury and lying are not the same thing.
The original AC's statement you guys are talking about is just... incorrect.
+1 Disagree
I have something that belongs to you, but I won't give it back unless you do what I say. How is that not coercion?
These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
As will the android fanboi's or anyone looking for 'gossip'.
I don't see how your post is relevant to a fanboi at all as anyone looking for dirt would read the story.
Sounds like extortion to me.
If that sounds like extortion to you then so does this:
Me - Hi, I'd like a Big Mac combo
McD - $4.49, please drive to the first window
Famous Me - So that's how it is then? Now that you know I'm hungry - you demand money (almost $5!) and services (you dictate where I drive and don't even compensate me for fuel!) And these demands are non-negotiable designed to generate you additional financial gain at my expense?! And Oh shit I can't even back up now because the lane behind me is blocked.
Famous Me - Drives to the first window, hands over a few bucks.
McD - Thank you, please drive ahead to the second window!
What the FUCK!? I paid for the buger, now it belongs to me! And I have to jump through additional hoops before you give it to me? Another car trip?! You realize I now consider my Big Mac stolen property! And I bet you plan to have someone report on your blog that Famous Me ate here!! Generating even more benefits to you! And wait what's that? A security camera? You are recording this?!! So now what? You going to sell video of my insane outbursts in your drive through window to news organizations!
This is all Extortion! From start to finish! EXTORTION!
The original AC's statement you guys are talking about is just... incorrect.
Not if you read the entire statement. If you manage to hold off a foaming-at-the-mouth reaction long enough to make an extra few words, you'll see the phrase "by which I mean they cannot perjure themselves". I hope I'm not the only person that managed to accurately understand the entire post.
If this same story was posted about a local 7-Eleven store, no one would give a shit, no one would read, and no one would comment on it.
Ahh, well that makes it perfectly OK then.
The main problem with your analogy is... the Big Mac combo wasn't already owned by 'Me' prior to arriving at the restaurant, and the requirement to go to the next window to pick up your meal is part of the purchase arrangement.
Now if you purchased it, took possession of said Big Mac, sat down to begin eating it, and out of the blue a McD employee snatched it from your hands and demanded you pay another $4.49 before he'll give it back, then your analogy would become relevant.
Context. I know it's confusing sometimes. One day you'll get the hang of it.
These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
From the perspective of the Framers of the Constitution calling someone a "member of the press" would be like us calling someone a "member of the Internet".
And 224 years later, our interpretation of the Constitution is slightly different. I know, shocking, but true.
Which is to say, that talking about the Consitution, without 224 years of context, is meaningless.
The protections of the free press are extended to all citizens... if they can jump enough hurdles to show that they are engaging in the activities of the press.
There have been plenty of court cases wrangling over extending the title "journalist" to bloggers and other non-accreddited journalists and AFAIK, none of them have gone to the Supreme Court. When one does, our 224 year old understanding of the Constitution will change a little more.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
but I won't give it back unless you do what I say. How is that not coercion?
That's still not coercion. Coercion generally requires threats of violence or threats to reputation so damaging that they would be life destroying (i.e. blackmail). Had Gizmodo credibly threatened to murder Steve Job's children unless he wrote the letter that's coercion. Had they had a gun at his at the time, that's coercion. In NY State to qualify as obtaining property through extortion you can't already in possession of it because then the coercion didn't rise to a high enough level.
In particular Gizmodo asked for an on the record official request. That's all they asked for. Many things in life, require you fill out documentation and do things "on the record". No court would ever consider a request to go on the record to even be a tort, much less a felony.
Shouldn't have fed the trolls.
This space left intentionally blank.
Oh I get the post and I suppose I unfairly expanded the context to jab at a number of posts in several discussions lately - a lot of people seem to think that perjury means more than it does.
You're right, I'll go wipe the foam off of my mouth in shame.
+1 Disagree
So now we are moving the goal posts for coercion to the level that is prosecutable? That's cheating :P
Physical coercion is only one type of coercion with Psychological, Legal, and Social being the other types.
Despite their intentions, Gizmodo tried to coerce Apple enter into negotiation for return of the prototype by using their possession of said prototype as leverage. Apple had a legitimate fear that Gizmodo would do financial harm by publishing more details about their prototype or worse sell it to one of Apple's competitor.
Except for the fact, that is wasn't a simple request for something in writing. When asked about the emails taken from Chen's computer, the prosecutor said:
"this is like 15-year-old children talking," Wagstaffe said. "There was so much animosity, and they were very critical of Apple. They talked about having Apple right where they wanted them and they were really going to show them."
They were in possession of stolen property. The thing that saved Gizmodo's bacon (so to speak), was that the prosecutor didn't think he had any evidence that Chen directly participated in the theft of the phone, and he had no real interest in building a case for acting like a "15-year-old" since I'm sure he had more pressing matters to attend to.
These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
I apologize, I didn't mean to accuse you specifically. I was using the general "you". I was mostly aiming for the Coward that got modded up (currently +4) for it.
When an individual crosses over the boundary from reporting the news into actively and willingly becoming part of the story, his claim of "freedom of the press" goes away.
Your understanding of the first amendment needs refreshing since you seem to believe that this freedom applies to "the press," i.e. credentialed or recognized journalists - it applies to every citizen equally. Freedom of the press means that each of us have the right to publish and distribute information through any medium.
The US government have made it clear that we have no inalienable rights; any we do not defend vigorously will be taken.
Didn't Fox News win a case last year giving the right to lie on their news broadcasts?
I vaguely remember that Fox News got away with it by saying that their only "news" programs are on from something like 10:00-11:00 a.m. and 2:00-4:00 p.m. They said everything else they air are opinion shows.
In Toronto, a person can get a minimum wage job at $10.25/hour and: he doesn't need to pay more money for some health care insurance that won't cover anything and will still cost more money with "copays". He only pays $5 for a week's worth of locally and internationally grown fruit and vegetables. He can get a nice one bedroom apartment for as low as $650, all in. The majority of his city is coloured by plants and trees. Electronics, especially computer related, are often found for lower prices than US listings - otherwise, they are on par.
It's good to be Canadian.
I'll make note of the fact that you didn't deny it though.
You have an interesting take on consumerism. I'm not sure I agree with that take. It may be quite true but my experience is a little different. This is especially true in the case of replacement batteries. This is doubly true in the case of iPhone batteries. Haven't you noticed those "battery cases" which extend the life of the iPhone's power? They are rather common these days.
Given the option, people will use and explore them. Apple is, perhaps, trying to make it more simple by removing options and hoping people don't notice. People do still notice though. And being unable to remove a battery is also kind of a security/privacy problem for me and many others. I remember when the iPhone was new and people would travel overseas thinking their phones were not on... yet they were, roaming and racking up huge bills. Not sure if that's an issue or not, but being able to remove a battery would ensure the machine is definitely off.
Physical coercion is only one type of coercion with Psychological, Legal, and Social being the other types.
You are copying from wikipedia. The type of coercion we are looking for is the kind that falls under the extortion statute. Things like "social coercion" aren't sufficient for extortion anywhere.
Despite their intentions, Gizmodo tried to coerce Apple enter into negotiation
Gizmodo didn't ask for negotiations. They asked for an official request.
for return of the prototype by using their possession of said prototype as leverage. Apple had a legitimate fear that Gizmodo would do financial harm by publishing more details about their prototype or worse sell it to one of Apple's competitor.
If Gizmodo had made a credible threat to sell the prototype like they had a buyer lined up then maybe you could make a case for extortion. When it comes to financial harm you have to show a credible threat of great harm, and while a competitor harm a prototype early might. Honestly I don't think that's even extortion. Change it a bit and have Gizmodo make a credible threat and Gizmodo ask for $50m which gets paid. Now we are talking a realistic extortion. The fact that Apple paid $50m means that both they and Apple understood this as a substantial threat but given how little $50m is to Apple they still might lose.
Its like anything else. Degree of harm matters. There is a difference between getting a finger flick and getting hit with a baseball bat in terms of battery.
Except for the fact, that is wasn't a simple request for something in writing..... /b.
Chen never asked Apple for that stuff. He just talked about it. There is no concept of thought crime in American law. Chen is free to think about committing crimes all he wants. If you want to argue that this was a conspiracy to commit extortion you are still missing at least one criminal act in furtherance of the conspiracy.
However, if in this imaginary time line once Chen starts asking for more stuff then this starts being Criminal Possession of Stolen Property. Because then it meets the two criteria.
a) They know its stolen
b) They use it for benefit.
That is still far far short of extortion.
Now if you purchased it, took possession of said Big Mac, sat down to begin eating it, and out of the blue a McD employee snatched it from your hands and demanded you pay another $4.49 before he'll give it back, then your analogy would become relevant.
That's your idea of a better analogy?
Did Gizmodo steal the iphone prototype? No.
Did Gizmodo demand apple pay full retail to get it back? No.
So how exactly is that a better analogy?
Yet you have the audacity to say "one day I'll get the hang of it"? Give me a break, you're analogy falls apart far worse than mine did. Especially as mine was actually intended to be hyperbole while yours was actually intended to "fix" mine. I know its confusing sometimes. One day you'll get the hang of it.
Now seriously, my analogy was to point out that nothing like extortion actually takes place in a fast food transaction. You order, you pay, you get your food. That's how mcdonalds does business, the fact that they won't give you your food until you drive to the 2nd window after you've already paid for it, doesn't make it extortion. Even though its set up like this for their financial benefit (efficiency).
Meanwhile, Gizmodo obtained apple's prototype, and then offered to return it. The "conditions" they placed upon returning are exactly as onerous as the "conditions" placed on a customer at McDonalds.
So what exactly was the condition Gizmodo placed on Apple to return their phone?
That apple provide them a written claim it did in fact belong to them.
Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. The sort of thing a lawyer would even insist upon before you hand something valuable over to someone else.
Are you really sure you want to stick with the analogy of having a burger ripped out of your hands while you are eating it by the very people who sold it to you? And then having them demand you pay for it a 2nd time before they'll give it back to you?
That's the equivalent of having to claim something valuable is yours before they give it to you? You do realize that Gizmodo didn't steal it, right? They got it from some guy looking to unload it ... now THAT guy might deserve some greif if he stole it instead of merely finding it as he claimed. But either way, that has nothing to do with Gizmodo.
wrong
Whatever. It's still extortion in my book.
It's certainly not behavior that would lead me to conclude that Gizmodo is a credible source for news or rumors.
But don't let my opinion keep you from visiting their site.
Good "talk". We beat this thread to death. Take care and best regards.
These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
Actually no. In fact it wasn't meant to be a better analogy, it was meant to show how bad yours was.
As far as the rest of the comment, it's obvious you like Gizmodo. Go enjoy their website in good health.
These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
Not that I disagree that Canadians have it better than us in many ways, but to be fair, my experience has been that purchasing power is lower per dollar because goods tend to be more expensive in Canada. Has anyone done the math on purchasing power of minimum wage workers in Canada versus the US? That would be very interesting.
That is why we can just drive over the border for milk and cheese. Now that the Canadian dollar is floating between par and above par with the US dollar, anyone living close to the border can use their Canadian dollars converted to US in neighbouring states
Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
Actually no. In fact it wasn't meant to be a better analogy, it was meant to show how bad yours was.
Fascinating, so that's why you said your version would make the analogy "relevant"? Did you just realize you stuffed it up and don't feel like admitting it and are back peddling?
As far as the rest of the comment, it's obvious you like Gizmodo. Go enjoy their website in good health.
I've actually never read gizmodo; and have no real opinion about the site. Why do you think its "obvious" I like them? And would that same line of reasoning lead us to conclude its obvious you are an apple fanboi?
I freely admit I'm poking you with a stick a bit, but your condescending tone coupled with the glaring problems with your posts provoked it.
In addition to purchasing stolen goods, they also attempted extortion.
[citation needed]. All I see is Steve Jobs -claiming- extortion, and these claims were made after respected Appleholics like Jon Stewart railed against Apple the DOJ for raiding Jason Chen's house.
I'm also loving the strong language used to convince us all that the company whose employee left their prototype phone in a bar, the lack of mention of the raid, and the fact that while Gizmodo and Apple are not exactly on speaking terms, virtually all other media outlets have been tools for Apple. So on one end, we have a company posing a (rather diplomatically worded) exposé that makes Apple look imperfect, and everyone else posting what qualifies as free advertisements for Apple (excluding the occasional Foxconn-esque article) and you want me to trust the mob? Fuck that.
That's not to say Gizmodo's article doesn't deserve a level of skepticism, but it doesn't deserve utter dismissal.
Charisma is the measure of someone's ability to lie with a straight face.
Your link says Washington state minimum wage is $9.04.
The cell plans from the big guys, internet, and gas are higher but natural food (not cookies, crackers) and prescriptions tend to be a lot cheaper. If you`re a resident, certainly you don`t have to pay for the doctors or hospitals. Stuff that is handled by the state (such as car insurance) tended to be cheaper when I lived there.
Based on the responses I've gotten so far, why the hell am I not a Canadian resident?
That's not the way it was intended to work.
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
GS wasn't destroying systems,
Oh yes they *were*. I can't count how many times I had to clean up after those guys.
Don't tell me to get a life. I'm a gamer; I have LOTS of lives!
I did not mean a condescending tone towards you. By "obvious you like Gozmodo", I meant that you are defending them pretty hard and I think we would be wasting our time trying to convince each other that the other side is somehow incorrect. I did not intend it to mean that you were a Gizmodo fanboi.
For the record, I meant coercion in the literal sense (as in by definition) and not necessarily the kind that warrants prosecution. While you try to portray a rational conversation between Apple and Gizmodo, the articles printed at the time of the incident and the comments of the prosecutor who decided not to pursue the matter indicate otherwise.
These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
Wages that cause people to feel exploited seem to have a huge effect on employee behavior.
There was a fairly believable story from a Walmart store manager that she stole things like diapers from inventory to give to employees with babies to help compensate for the wages that were to low for them to support their families.
"What was immoral about the Walmart store managers actions?" is an essay question that would probably get you forty different answers from twenty people.
Costco pays their employees well and has negligible product shrinkage, Walmart skimps on pay and has one out of nine items damaged, destroyed, stolen, or is otherwise unaccounted for.
To quote Milton Friedman "People will do what they have to do to survive." Morality is a luxury of the middle class.
Work bio at MMWD
To be more precise, ad hominem is a fallacy *only* when used to refute an argument's conclusions. It *can* be used to refute a piece of *evidence*. Let me illustrate.
Alice: Charlie says some flying saucers must be pink.
Bob: Oh, I don't believe that. Charlie's a nutcase.
Bob has just committed argumentum ad hominem. He has refuted an argument based on the person putting it forth.
Alice: Charlie says some flying saucers must be pink.
Bob: How does he know?
Alice: Charlie says he saw some pink ones.
Bob: Oh, I don't believe that. Charlie's a nutcase.
Here Bob is doing something subtly different. He does not believe Charlie's *evidence*, based on Charlie's known lack of credibility in the paranormal event department. This has the same effect as the ad hominem, but it is valid because it's not a blanket refutation of *anything* Bob wishes to deny:
Alice: Charlie says some flying saucers must be pink.
Bob: How does he know?
Alice: It says so in the new erratum to Jane's *All the World's Aircraft*.
Bob: ???
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Stupid cowards and their stupid mods!!
Oh crap, there's that foam again!
+1 Disagree
I did not mean a condescending tone towards you.
Fair enough. I'll drop the stick.
Once upon a time I "lost" my bike (or it got stolen for a joyride or kicks or whatever motivates some people ... and then found abandoned by someone else later). In any case, it was fairly valuable, and good fortune it turned up with the Police.
So I show up, show some ID, and they have me make and sign a statement that the bike is mine.
I didn't exactly feel that I was the victim of extortion. Was I "coerced"? Sure, in the sense that the police weren't giving me the bike back unless I formally claimed it, sure absolutely. But to characterize that as "extortion"? That's out of line.
For the record, I meant coercion in the literal sense (as in by definition) and not necessarily the kind that warrants prosecution
If you meant coercion, in the literal sense, fine.
Firstly, that sort of coercion is precisely the same sort of coercion that McDonald's puts you through to obtain a Burger. You have to order here, pay there, and pick up over there. If you want your order, you go to the second window.
Secondly, you literally wrote "extortion", not "coercion".
"Sounds like extortion to me."
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3064047&cid=41080477
While you try to portray a rational conversation between Apple and Gizmodo, the articles printed at the time of the incident and the comments of the prosecutor who decided not to pursue the matter indicate otherwise.
I wouldn't go that far. I readily agree that Gizmodo was doing its level best to exploit the event for all the publicity it was worth.
However, even so, Gizmodo's request that apple formally claim the device was reasonable. I've recovered lost/stolen property before, and its not at all unusual or unreasonable to have to show ID and sign a statement claiming ownership of it.
The fact that this would give Gizmodo something to crow about as news and even the fact that this is largely why Gizmodo was even doing it doesn't really change things. Its distasteful and exploitive ... and on par with half the things you see in a tabloid.
Celebrities don't get to avoid having their mugshots taken when they get arrested just because they know the tabloids will plaster those unflattering pics all over their pages for profits.
Similarly Apple shouldn't get to reclaim lost property with a SWAT team and police raid just because they know that issuing a statement claiming ownership would be simultaneously humiliating and will give the webtabloids a bunch of juicy fodder.
In hindsight by the way, I think Gizmodo miscalculated. They would have "won" had they formally turned the iphone over to the police. The situation there i If it wasn't claimed wihin X days, then it belongs to Gizmodo. And of course, when Apple claimed it, they ABSOLUTELY would have had to document it, and unless I'm mistaken it would have been a matter of public record, and they'd have gotten their story.
Although perhaps the way it went down was even better fodder for the news industry. Apple raiding companies for lost prototypes on what are at best flimsy pretenses is far better news fodder than anything anyone could have cooked up.
It doesn't permit them to lie, cheat, and steal... by which I mean they cannot perjure themselves, commit fraud, or commit larceny with impunity. Freedom of the press is not a blanket permit to do whatever they feel like.
As far as I know it is not illegal to lie.
Perjury is very much illegal.
Only for chicks though! A fine manly man like Roger Clemens had no trouble!
Fuck off, you miserably biased troll.
I might, if you log in.
Until then, those who are logged in can do whatever they want.
You are suck a fucking twat. I hope you eat shit and die.
oh no, someone is thrashing my faggotry-laden bitchboy company! I must come to their defense!
This shit is offtopic, bitch. Go shove an apple up your ass.
Whatever. It's still extortion in my book.
A formal request instead of a phone call is extortion? Some people would call the due diligence instead, as in "get it in writing".
It's certainly not behavior that would lead me to conclude that Gizmodo is a credible source for news or rumors.
Why? Were they caught making up stories? They got a scoop, so in my eyes I'd more inclined to believe them.
I got to pretend that I was shoplifting the item as I walked out the door with it.
So how do the employees tell the difference between a shoplifter and a legitimate customer?
Dallas Mornings News discovered the store in question is at the Northpark Mall in Dallas
dude, that was awesome ;o)
Raenex --
I think you meant to reply to Bill. You replied one level up from that. Also you might want to mention you are someone else.
UEFI is largely irrelevant to their ability to do their jobs
"Hi, Mr Genius, I'd like to lock my UEFI to prevent someone from booting from the CD" ...this customer. Ask Steve."
"LOL wut? I'm busy with *chooses randomly*
not insightful! this is a logical fallacy.
gizmodo being butthurt at apple's butthurt at their outing the iphone 4 does not make the article at hand a lie.
and the reach-around modpoints being handed to all the apple supporting posts while all the posts with a little bit of question to them are -1s is incredibly suspicious.
i always browse at -1 anyway, but it's not exactly in the spirit of the moderation system that the most insightful posts are -1 but only in Apple related threads.
problem is that to prove the item was or was not stolen would probably mean revealing a source. that IS something that the press has a little protection about. they can traffic in ALLEGEDLY stolen goods (okay, we all know the phone was hot, but the truth is a matter for the courts :) all they want so long as to prove it is to reveal a source. if that source was working for foxconn, they could even flee the country and seek asylum or end up as another foxconn suicide...
You obviously haven't heard about our illegitimate prime minister.
I got to pretend that I was shoplifting the item as I walked out the door with it.
So how do the employees tell the difference between a shoplifter and a legitimate customer?
I wondered this myself. Maybe I'll ask next time. Or, I guess I could try walking out first and completing my purchase outside. I'm guessing I could outrun most of the Geniuses I've seen if I had to. ;)
I replied to Bill. You can verify this by checking the comment id (cid) on the Parent link. As for mentioning I'm someone else, meh. Sometimes I do that, but generally I expect people to realize Slashdot is an open discussion and anybody can jump in.
Interesting, I got the email notification on this comment. Hmmm wonder what happened.
Maybe all replies, regardless of depth, are being sent as notifications? I don't know, I can't even see email preferences as an option anymore, maybe because I'm using the Classic system.
No I reply far too many and that doesn't happen.
Oh well.
The only people to blame here are those engaging in the acts mentioned.
Precisely. I think the only reason this is "news" is that someone, somewhere wants to be able to point a finger and say "Look! Apple's employees are dishonest and unethical!". I am all for pointing out a company's ethical transgressions, but any reasonable person probably realizes that the alleged actions described in TFA were carried out at the store level and outside the scope of Apple policy.
Anyone who has worked in retail has probably seen their share of this type of act. It's possible for employees of any given retail company -- at any level -- to be corrupt. Employees being drunk/hungover/high/whatever at work is hardly uncommon (anyone who lives in a college town can attest to this). And when bad employees inevitably get caught, they are punished.
So let's just call this what it is: an Apple "hateboi" trolling to get attention.
That's 10.75 Canadian Dollars eh?
Subversion of spatial scale luxury decoration ideas.
"Morality is a luxury of the middle class."
what a crock of shit.
"at the end of the day they're able to solve most people's problems"
No, they're not, which is why my position was created almost a decade ago in most repair centers. "Genius" or "Geek" damage control.
Try again when you have a realistic state of the technology economy.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
They make more money selling pay-per-view for the baby punching than from the ads. I know I'd leave if I couldn't catch a good baby-punching video every now and again.
Virg