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Medicare Bills Rise As Records Turn Electronic

theodp writes "As part of the economic stimulus program, the Obama administration put into effect a Bush-era incentive program that provides tens of billions of dollars for physicians and hospitals that make the switch to electronic records, using systems like Athenahealth [note: video advertisement] (which made U.S. CTO Todd Park a wealthy man). The goal was not only to improve efficiency and patient safety, but also to reduce health care costs. But, in reality, the move to electronic health records may be contributing to billions of dollars in higher costs for Medicare, private insurers and patients by making it easier for hospitals and physicians to bill more for their services, whether or not they provide additional care. Hospitals received $1 billion more in Medicare reimbursements in 2010 than they did five years earlier, at least in part by changing the billing codes they assign to patients in emergency rooms, according to a NY Times analysis. There are also fears that features which can be used to automatically generate detailed patient histories and clone examination findings for multiple patients make it too easy to give the appearance that more thorough exams were conducted than perhaps were. Critics say the abuses are widespread. 'It's like doping and bicycling,' said Dr. Donald W. Simborg. 'Everybody knows it's going on.'"

294 comments

  1. Sounds like... by fustakrakich · · Score: 2, Informative

    Mission Accomplished!

    --
    “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
  2. Medicare fraud is not new by bit+trollent · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Medicare fraud is not new. It existed way before electronic records.

    Florida's governor, Rick Scott's company committed medicare fraud way before electronic records were introduced.

    Electronic records should make it easier to detect medicare fraud, as statistical analysis is much easier with computerized systems.

    1. Re:Medicare fraud is not new by sjames · · Score: 2

      The problem here isn't exactly fraud, it's that the 'optimization' of billing codes allows them to go right up to the line but not over. It's the closest thing to fraud there is without actually being illegal.

    2. Re:Medicare fraud is not new by russotto · · Score: 5, Informative

      Because the whole system is idiotic. It's not like doctors and hospitals have prices for (non-emergency) procedures, tell you what those prices are in advance, tell you what the procedures they will be performing on before in advance, and get agreement on price before doing anything. They don't even do so much as give you an estimate.

      No, instead, assuming an insured patient, they do an exam and get a flat fee from you. Then depending on what they did during the exam, they bill for everything they did (according to the standard set of codes) at some totally fictitious rate that maybe one sucker in a million pays. The insurance company or Medicare then looks at what they did (according to the codes), ignores completely the amount they charged, and pays them whatever they, the insurance company or Medicare, feels like paying. So basically, a doctor who doesn't code the most expensive codes he can based on what he did is leaving money on the table for no reason.

    3. Re:Medicare fraud is not new by TheRealMindChild · · Score: 2

      The cost may be, in some part, from welfare fraud, however, I my personal experience is, they contract a service company now to their paperwork needs. They no longer do it in house with low paid employees. Also, now when your records need to be transferred, they CAN charge an "administrative fee" to do so.

      --

      "When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
    4. Re:Medicare fraud is not new by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 2

      It's not like doctors and hospitals have prices for (non-emergency) procedures, tell you what those prices are in advance, tell you what the procedures they will be performing on before in advance, and get agreement on price before doing anything.

      They are starting too. Ironically, it seems like Obamacare is indirectly the cause of this change.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    5. Re:Medicare fraud is not new by segedunum · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Sounds like Britain's NHS 'internal market' on steroids with lots of zeros added to the end and both are doomed to failure, fraud and unsustainable costs.

      I have no problem at all with free healthcare providing a safety net for those who can least afford it. Indeed, I find the escalating costs of the US's private health insurance system quite scary and it is not sustainable at all. However, if you're going to have a publicly backed health system then have it within a public sector organisation with a proper mandate. Mixing public sector planning with public sector printed cash and the private sector simply results in private companies and those who make public sector buying decisions getting drunk on printed cash at taxpayer's expense. The whole fraudulent system is based around how big everyone feels they can make the numbers on their invoices because they know the government can always print more, and everyone knows that is the case with Medicare.

    6. Re:Medicare fraud is not new by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      Just saw Pokidok on Boing Boing.
      It's kind of a crowd-sourced price-list of cash prices for treatments.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    7. Re:Medicare fraud is not new by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indeed, there are now numerous companies popping up to help insurers audit medical expense, many of which are based on statistical and machine learning techniques, and these are quite popular. All the major insurance companies are working with one or more of these companies, though it's early days, as many of the projects are still in pilot.

    8. Re:Medicare fraud is not new by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 5, Informative

      Then depending on what they did during the exam, they bill for everything they did (according to the standard set of codes) at some totally fictitious rate that maybe one sucker in a million pays.

      Furthermore, insurers typically calculate their reimbursement for procedure #123 based on a percentage of the average "retail" price of procedure #123 across all physicians in the local area. For instance, say the average price for a strep throat exam in your suburb is $100. An insurance company might say that they'll reimburse at 40% of the local rate for a billing code, so any given doctor will get paid $40.00 for that exam whether their invoice price is $20 or $200. Is your doctor a med school near-dropout or the guy who invented the exam procedure used worldwide? Doesn't matter. $40.

      Because of that, doctors almost universally raise their rates regularly, not to increase the amount they'll get paid for each invoice but to bring the local average rate up. In case you're wondering, that 40% in the example is particularly generous. Most insurance companies reimburse at significantly lower multiples. Medicaid has notoriously horrible reimbursement rates, to the point that my wife (a podiatrist) would literally get paid less for many common procedures than she spent for consumable supplies. Every patient she treated like that took money out of her pocket - it's hard to make money when you get paid $15 to do a procedure that costs you $20 to perform (assuming your time is free) - but she saw them anyway because she feels morally compelled to help sick people regardless of their circumstances.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    9. Re:Medicare fraud is not new by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's funny how you americans are complaining on the poor "stealing" money from the "hard working" rich people when they get social security in order to survive. Yet it seems that the "hard working" stealing big chunks of money, the "harder working" they more they steal. Those seem to be heroes. You are becoming the european equivalent of corrupt Italia, where of course anyone get caught doing something corrupt is despised by if they get away with it, they become the love of the nation and raise up to the sky. I hope you get your own Berlusconi a.k.a. Romney (even though he isn't as smart as Berlusconi maybe because education system is better in Italy for the big thieves).

    10. Re:Medicare fraud is not new by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

      More and more things move this direction. Compliance with different filing requirements for any small (incorporated) business are a mess, so a business with gross revenues of $100k needs to spend $2-10k in managing all the filings. The question becomes twofold: does this filing serve a useful purpose, or is it excessive regulation. I am starting to think the latter; if you are doing electronic filings, use them to simplify the process.

    11. Re:Medicare fraud is not new by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Aside from loss-leader reimbursement rates, Medicaid is a government program so any mistakes in your paperwork can result in fines.

    12. Re:Medicare fraud is not new by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Out of curiosity, what does she charge patients that pay out of pocket?

    13. Re:Medicare fraud is not new by Rich0 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yup, 40% definitely seems high based on the ton of medical bills I've seen paid.

      I love it when people say that if you pay cash the doctor will give you a big discount since it saves them a lot of hassle. The big discount turns out to be "OMG 40% off retail!!!" That means that you're paying 60% of retail, or likely double what any insurance company would pay.

      If I were in charge of health care reforms the first reform I'd enact is that EVERYBODY pays the same thing for the same service. Doctors would register their prices by ICD9 or whatever in some central database, which would be publicly viewable. Oh, and doctors wouldn't be able to collect a penny without having an estimate signed off before any work was done - just like how virtually every other industry works. Oh, and while you're at it if the customer isn't handed a copy of the chart on the way out the door, then the work is free.

    14. Re:Medicare fraud is not new by timeOday · · Score: 1
      Medicare fraud is not new.

      Insurance fraud is not new.

      Fraud is not new.

      The great thing with electronic records is it makes it easier to detect.

    15. Re:Medicare fraud is not new by Tastecicles · · Score: 1

      wonder if that's why the move is being made (albeit slowly and still with a lot of hoops to jump) to put certain prescription drugs, for example salbutamol 100 and co-codamol 12.8/500, over-the-counter?

      In this way the NHS are offsetting the cost of such drugs by forcing patients who find themselves in some kind of emergency (out and about and lost his/her inhaler?) to pony up the cash for a replacement - as you can't whip out an exemption certificate and get them. Been there, worn the T-shirt.

      --
      Operation Guillotine is in effect.
    16. Re:Medicare fraud is not new by joocemann · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Also, the 'issue' at hand is about $3.33/citizen. That means its a tornado in a teacup like th 12 milion dollar muffins.

      300BN fighter jet programs are $1000/citizen, and considering our absurd power, are much more worth PRIORITIES in what may be a 'issue' of waste.

    17. Re:Medicare fraud is not new by sjames · · Score: 1

      It's messed up all around. Doctors raise their rates in hopes that after insurance stiffs them for a big percentage of it they still make enough. That means that uninsured are screwed and those that can get insurance so the doctor gets stiffed rather than actually being paid reasonably.

      Meanwhile, the supplies themselves are horribly overpriced in too many cases. I do wonder why doctors don't form the medical equivalent of Sam's club to force vendors to charge reasonably.

      Doctors seem to bring at least some of it on themselves. Most don't even know how much the various tests they might order cost nor how much the prescriptions will be. Clearly they do nothing like a cost/benefit analysis for their patients. Any professional in any non-medical field is expected to do that.

      The market just plain doesn't work when the buyer can't look at the price tag and say "WHOA, no thank you!". It also doesn't work when the seller can't do the same thing with the offer. When nobody actually knows what anything costs, it can't even work for non-emergency care.

    18. Re:Medicare fraud is not new by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Yup, 40% definitely seems high based on the ton of medical bills I've seen paid."

      In civilized countries it's 80% or more.

    19. Re:Medicare fraud is not new by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...Electronic records should make it easier to detect medicare fraud, as statistical analysis is much easier with computerized systems.

      That's exactly what Medicare thought, and it's why all the insurance companies are now demanding people's social security numbers - to comply with Medicare's reporting requirements, which forces private insurers to report everything to Medicare about every claim they pay, even if patients aren't eligible for Medicare. All of the insurers have been told by Medicare to cancel your insurance or refuse to insure you if you won't give one. Unfortunately, someone at Medicare failed to understand one of the opening paragraphs of the Social Security Act which created Medicare in the first place - it says that no part of the Social Security Act can be construed to prevent anyone from buying private health insurance.

    20. Re:Medicare fraud is not new by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you did this, most doctors would simply stop giving discounts to directly paying patients. Unintended consequence...

    21. Re:Medicare fraud is not new by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      My proposal was that everybody pays the same - every insurance company, and directly paying patients.

      The insurance companies ALREADY pay less than directly paying patients most of the time. There seem to be exceptions, but that probably depends on your insurance company as well.

      The most likely result would be a few insurance companies that are REALLY good at negotiating discounts might pay more, and just about everybody else would pay less.

      I'd be fine with doctors having a separate rate for charity-based work that is either free, or strictly the cost of materials.

    22. Re:Medicare fraud is not new by Rich0 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No doubt. But I live in the wonderful USA, where medical billing is like people haggling over a Honda Civic and the dealer is asking for $400k, and the fleet buyer is looking to spend $19.95 but pays $10k, and the dealer tells some poor bum who walks in off the street that because they're in so much need that they can have the car for only $80k.

    23. Re:Medicare fraud is not new by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      You as a patient can ask.
      They do have a feeschedule that they can lookup and give you their prices.

      They tend not too because the billing is done after the procedures. The Dr. Actually is more willing to perform care and not stressing out the patient. However if you need to know the price beforehand ask.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    24. Re:Medicare fraud is not new by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Medicare fraud is not new. It existed way before electronic records.

      Florida's governor, Rick Scott's company committed medicare fraud way before electronic records were introduced.

      Electronic records should make it easier to detect medicare fraud, as statistical analysis is much easier with computerized systems.

      Simple Solution: Medicare should refuse to automatically process claims submitted for patients of the suspected fraudsters. For any fraudulent charge bill back to the and hospital an amount equal to 10 times the charge payable net 15 and non-dischargeable in bankruptcy just as the government seemed only too eager to enact for student loans.

    25. Re:Medicare fraud is not new by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      On at least one occasion, she was paid in chickens. The patient had little money but was able to spare some poultry from their farm, so they showed up with an ice chest of plucked, gutted chickens. We got a nice ham once, too. I don't know what her cash discount rate was for people with enough money to pay out of pocket.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    26. Re:Medicare fraud is not new by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      Meanwhile, the supplies themselves are horribly overpriced in too many cases. I do wonder why doctors don't form the medical equivalent of Sam's club to force vendors to charge reasonably.

      They do. My wife ordered from a supply company that was nearly a co-op and its prices were very reasonable compared to some of the direct suppliers.

      Doctors seem to bring at least some of it on themselves. Most don't even know how much the various tests they might order cost nor how much the prescriptions will be. Clearly they do nothing like a cost/benefit analysis for their patients. Any professional in any non-medical field is expected to do that.

      I totally agree with that. I was between insurances last month and needed to see a doctor for something minor. I explained up front that I was paying out of pocket. She started to prescribe something that sounded expensive and I stopped her to ask if there was something with a generic that would be more affordable. She paused for a moment, then "oh! Sure. How about ____?" That turned a likely $200 prescription into a $4 generic and was effective enough to fix the problem I went for.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    27. Re:Medicare fraud is not new by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And if i saw your podiatrist wife with no insurance, I would pay $400 for the same $15 exam.

      THIS is the problem with the "healthcare industry" in America, and this is the problem that none of the elected officials even attempted to correct. Granted, regulating the industry on cost would be a colossal undertaking, so they punted to get everyone on insurance and have the insurance/Medicare/MediCaid people regulate the prices.

    28. Re:Medicare fraud is not new by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Medicare is underfunded by about $25T, so no, it isn't a tempest in a teacup. Its enough to sink the USD all by its lonesome.

    29. Re:Medicare fraud is not new by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If I were in charge of health care reforms the first reform I'd enact is that EVERYBODY pays the same thing for the same service. Doctors would register their prices by ICD9 or whatever in some central database, which would be publicly viewable.

      This does not occur even in a Scandinavian well-fare state with a "socialists" public healthcare system. The private healthcare price as they please, and the cities price their public services within limits considering the unions, budget, laws on equality and so on. The pricing information is of course publicly available.

      Oh, and doctors wouldn't be able to collect a penny without having an estimate signed off before any work was done - just like how virtually every other industry works.

      Fortunately public and the private sectors do consider the wealth of the patient as well here and the estimates are readily given. Of course the private sector, which performs the "cosmetic" operations as well, is more agile in this sense.
        Even though the combined public-private system is relatively efficient the cost of healthcare is rising along the aging of the population, improved diagnosis, expensive medicine and the conditions in the employment market. It's difficult to say if such a "horrible Frankenstein public-private-communist-capitalist hybrid" system could function better in the US conditions. The legislative requirement for the implementation of a (partially) public healthcare system can be directly drawn from the constitution. No such luck in the US, I guess.

    30. Re:Medicare fraud is not new by sjames · · Score: 1

      I suspect that a lot of brand name prescriptions would be a lot cheaper if they had to compete against cheap generics. They would have to compete if more doctors considered the cost/benefit to their patients when prescribing.

    31. Re:Medicare fraud is not new by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So basically, a doctor who doesn't code the most expensive codes he can based on what he did is leaving money on the table for no reason.

      Uhm, that's not how it works.

      A doctor who doesn't code the correct codes for what he did is committing fraud. Upcoding is fraud. And downcoding is fraud.

    32. Re:Medicare fraud is not new by LunaticTippy · · Score: 1

      Nobody knows what it'll cost for anything more complex than an office visit. I tried shopping around for a surgery and it was infuriating. The few places that would hazard a guess gave me a gigantic range. In the end I went with an outpatient clinic based on convenience. I couldn't find any numbers about complication rates, success on a single surgery rates, or even a vague idea of price. I ended up with separate bills from the clinic, surgeon, anesthesiologist, hundreds of line items, all with baffling adjustments due to insurance.

      --
      Man, you really need that seminar!
    33. Re:Medicare fraud is not new by Magius_AR · · Score: 1

      300BN fighter jet programs are $1000/citizen, and considering our absurd power, are much more worth PRIORITIES in what may be a 'issue' of waste.

      Where do you get your numbers? I tried to find any jet program that came near that number in annual cost and could not.

      The Raptor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-22_Raptor) is about 62 billion TOTAL cost. The F35 (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-03-30/lockheed-f-35-fighter-estimate-increased-9-in-a-year-u-s-says.html) is 1.51 trillion over _55_ years (~27 billion a year). I believe that's $86 per citizen, which is a far cry from the $1000 you're claiming.

    34. Re:Medicare fraud is not new by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      I'm surprised Obamacare didn't make it worse. The problem is that the insurance company makes more profit the higher the cost of the procedure. So there is intense pressure for the highest prices possible, and zero real pressure for low prices.

      Obamacare didn't introduce any "fix" for that imbalance. Perhaps it's because there's no such thing as an uninsured person anymore, so they don't put down a cash price of $10,000,000 for an asprin that they ruin the lives of every uninsured person that requires emergency care. Sad that the insurance price is grossly inflated, and the cash price was 10x or more the insured price ("but the insurance company negotiated for the lower price" doesn't make a good argument when the insurance company makes more with higher prices).

    35. Re:Medicare fraud is not new by lsatenstein · · Score: 1

      Audit the systems.

      What has to be done with electronic systems, is for a physician to sign in and mark the treatment he did. It could be his secretary who does the marking, but the log record of who entered what is marked. An auditing program could be run or written to check the hours billed versus the number of patients. I bet you some physicians who were playing golf saw at least 25 patients concurrently that same day, and on regular working days, at least 35 patients.

      My brother-in-law went to the emergency clinic to have a splinter extracted. It was in his palm, and he was not dexterous enough to do it himself. The nurse swabbed the area with alcohol, pulled out the splinter in a few minutes. Gave him a bandaid, and sent him home. His bill was for over $900.00 for physicians he never saw, and tests he never approved. His insurance paid the bill without questioning it.

      In the USA, hospitals are "for profit", and in the majority of the world, "Hospitals are for service, with charges to cover costs"

       

      --
      Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
  3. This is silly by rsilvergun · · Score: 5, Interesting

    it's already been established that moving to electronic records helps track Medicare fraud. Yes, the system has a lot of gaps, but electronic tracking reduces them. If that wasn't true companies wouldn't use electronic purchasing systems to track expenditures, and the spreadsheet would just be an interesting foot note in computer history...

    I gotta ask (since I'm far too lazy to read the article): Is this a lame attack on the existing administration?

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:This is silly by kelemvor4 · · Score: 1

      it's already been established that moving to electronic records helps track Medicare fraud. Yes, the system has a lot of gaps, but electronic tracking reduces them. If that wasn't true companies wouldn't use electronic purchasing systems to track expenditures, and the spreadsheet would just be an interesting foot note in computer history...

      True, but as organizations such as anonymous and other hacker groups frequently show us they also help make fraud easier. It's very much a double edged sword.

      I gotta ask (since I'm far too lazy to read the article): Is this a lame attack on the existing administration?

      I didn't get that impression. They mention the Obama and Bush administrations together since both were pushing electronic records. I think if it were a political attack, you wouldn't see dubya's name on it.

    2. Re:This is silly by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

      it's already been established that moving to electronic records helps track Medicare fraud. Yes, the system has a lot of gaps, but electronic tracking reduces them. If that wasn't true companies wouldn't use electronic purchasing systems to track expenditures, and the spreadsheet would just be an interesting foot note in computer history... I gotta ask (since I'm far too lazy to read the article): Is this a lame attack on the existing administration?

      Making billing and payment systems electronic reduces processing costs. That's the primary driver of the multi-industry-wide push to do all that electronically. It's really expensive to have humans transcribe things and add up columns of numbers.

    3. Re:This is silly by gtall · · Score: 1

      No, it isn't an attack. Doctors and hospitals find that with medical records, upping the codes for service in their favor is made easier. Hence, the government and insurance companies pay more.

      It isn't clear how to go about fixing this. There's no way the government could have enough monitors to make sure doctors and hospitals are honest. Maybe they could use statistics. That has its own problems, what is the baseline. And baselines would change across the country. Spot checks might work if backed up by proper law enforcement. Upping the codes is not against the law though, so we'd need new laws. Compensating whistle blowers might also help a bit.

    4. Re:This is silly by Green+Salad · · Score: 3, Informative

      Making billing and payment systems electronic reduces processing costs.

      Wow. I don't know where to begin. This is a lot more variable than you'd think.

      I think the following statement is much more accurate.

      Making billing and payment systems electronic has the potential to reduce processing costs.

      Keep in mind that the adoption of E-mail did not eliminate mail fraud or reduce the labor involved in processing mail.

      I'd argue I spend more time processing my mail than I did in the 80's. It might have reduced the costs of sending an individual letter using a stamp. Your actual results may vary. Do did you buy Microsoft Exchange server, Outlook? Oh wait...it's not a purchase...its a temporary license. Did you have to renew the license? At what cost? Did you send 90 letters out last year? 200 letters? How about when measured as "cost per correspondence" that year? When you renewed software licenses under the new version, could you continue to use your orginally purchased hardware? ...or did you have to upgrade your hardware as well? Was your labor cost free? If you used a "free" provider, such as Yahoo, how much time did you spend fiddling around, following animated Yahoo links. Does your time have value?

      Medical billing system goals and project architectures vary. There's a lot more to this than coding medical procedures or reducing the human clerical involvement in working with Medicaid. I analyze and track the success of various medical IT projects and there are too many failures sold as successes and the costs shifted around, but ultimately paid by citizens, self-insured customers, quality of care, quality of non-medical service. Definitions of "success" vary from person to person and many are not based on objective, measurable criteria.

      Keep in the mind the labor for regulatory compliance, developing and managing electronic systems runs $35-$230/hr. Accounting clerk and medical-coding labor runs $16-$40/hr and "maintenance" involves periodic training. The labor cost ranges can actually be wider depending on the economy of that region. Think New York City vs. Podunkville, WV. Keep in mind that there are often unplanned and improperly budgeted costs such as security and maintenance. The medical coding and accounting clerk labor typically is not eliminated, but retrained to use the new system and often given a raise to retain them after the training, because they are in more demand. The transaction labor time is often increased in the new system and the transaction errors harder to detect and diagnose because of the increased specialization and fragmentation of knowledge about the system.

      Some of the billing labor requires maintaining industry certifications. As standards become more internationalized, there's potential for labor savings by exporting the jobs and broader sharing of expertise. Sometimes these savings are offset by increased coordination and communication costs (not long-distance fees, we're talking subtle mis-communication with big impacts resolution of business outcomes) caused by the shift from localized clerical work to exported clerical work.

      I've seen many implementations where total operating costs, per unit of the same function, dramatically increased AND it created new costs, hidden by being created in other departments, such as, Legal, Customer Service and Communications.

      (Did lawsuits increase? Was there more confusion about work-products? Was resolution of the confusion easier or harder? Did we have to "educate" our customer on our system with PR campaigns? What did that cost? Was it effective?)

      If we ignore all the issues that come with new implementation projects and switch our focus to the new power of having more (and better?) data to sift...that's easier to analyze, there are two sides to that coin.

      1. Automated algorithms make it easier to detect some types of fraud. (in email analogy, spam)

    5. Re:This is silly by jamstar7 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They mention the Obama and Bush administrations together since both were pushing electronic records. I think if it were a political attack, you wouldn't see dubya's name on it.

      OK, a lot of this came about due to HIPPA, the Health Information Portability and Privacy Act. At the time HIPPA went into effect, private insurance paperwork ('administration costs') for medical costs were running 30-35% of every healthcare dollar spent, while with Medicare, the paperwork costs were only about 3%. It wasn't too bad of an idea, considering we're dealing with the Feds here, and rather visionary at the time. This of course was while the Feds were still directly administering Medicare/Medicaid, before they privatised it out on 'cost-plus' contracts. The intent at the time was to reduce paperwork/administration costs to something comparable to what Medicare was doing, i.e., dirt cheap, to reduce healthcare costs. At the time, it was a good idea.

      Standardising medical records and insurance forms along Medicare lines meant the girl in the billing office only needed to really understand one form and how to fill it out, where before, each healthcare insurance company could use their own proprietary form, and change said form at will to delay payment of claims. Hey, this kinda shit happened a lot in the 80's, peaked in the 90's, and basically added the gasoline to the fire that caused HIPPA to happen. Back then, they didn't use your Social Security number as identification, but as an account number for your Medicare and/or Social Security/SSI/disability check and to make sure your Social Security account was properly funded for you. In fact, back then, they even printed on the bottom of your Social Security card 'NOT TO BE USED FOR IDENTIFICATION'. (BTW, that came off your SS card some time ago.) It was cool because they weren't using your SSN for anything else, your credit report and such wasn't indexed by it, and the only way to get somebody's SSN was to steal their wallet and look at their card. Then the laws changed.

      Now, your SSN is used for identification. It's tied to your credit report, your SS/Medicare account (which has a seperate account number now), yadda yadda yadda. Kids are issued SSNs at birth, where before, when I was a kid ('Get off my lawn!!!'), you filed for your SSN when you landed your first job or enlisted in the military. You file for your kids, the Social Security Administration would look at you and tell you they had laws in this country against child labor.

      Anyways, the intent was to cut healthcare costs by cutting paperwork & administration costs. Then Medicare got privatised. And where they once had 3% admin costs, they were soon up to the 'standard' 30-35% costs of 'regular medical insurance'. The medical insurance companies had standards dammit, and they weren't gonna let Medicare exceed them. Especially not when there was a few billion bucks to be made. What needs to happen is, healthcare should be a government funded monopoly, paid for from your taxes. It's in the government's interest to do this. Access to healthcare means a healthier citizenry, with less time lost from work due to illness. It also means lower healthcare costs overall because little problems get caught before they become big expensive life-threatening/altering problems. See the Chinese 'barefoot doctor' program for further information, and let's marry that concept to a Canadian/UK/Scandanavian model single-pay system.

      --
      Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
    6. Re:This is silly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      HIPAA, not HIPPA. Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act.

    7. Re:This is silly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. It is HIPAA - Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act. Here's a reference from a U.S. government website:

    8. Re:This is silly by Bryansix · · Score: 1

      Who modded you up? In a just world you would be modded troll -1 right now. You posted no facts and your quip about catching fraud doesn't take into account the type of fraud happening where actual services are rendered but the code for WHICH service is changed. Then you try to dismiss the whole article because people have a very high disapproval rating of the current administration so somehow all those people are "Lame"? Seriously, grow up.

    9. Re:This is silly by rsborg · · Score: 1

      OK, a lot of this came about due to HIPPA, the Health Information Portability and Privacy Act.

      Actually, it's HIPAA, the Health Information Portability and Accountability Act. I'm kind of amazed you got it mostly right without referring to Wikipedia [1].

      [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_Insurance_Portability_and_Accountability_Act

      --
      Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
    10. Re:This is silly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't have to give your SSN to private health insurance companies. The instant they tell you that they have to have it for Medicare secondary-payer reporting purposes, point them at USC 42 1395b. Using any part of the Social Security Act to deny you health insurance is a violation of the Social Security Act.

    11. Re:This is silly by tomhath · · Score: 1

      You're thinking of HIPAA requirements for electronic Medicaid billing, not so much Medicare. The problem there was that every state and insurance company had their own protocol for electronic billing so no vendor could do it.

      HIPAA also added a lot of other superfluous requirements that naturally raised the administrative costs, which are now being passed through to the patients. The girl in the billing office still has to struggle with the same problems as before, especially when a patient has Medicare and some kind of secondary insurance. Electronic medical records and billing just make it a little easier to get it right so fewer claims are denied.

    12. Re:This is silly by sergentzimm · · Score: 1

      This is great except each insurance now interprets the standard differently. Medicare requires one interpretation, and private another. Don't get me started on the state medaids. They are still requiring taxonomy codes, which were made illegal in 2006 with the NPI. For some reason medicaid is not covered under these new laws. It is a mess. I know because I work for a company that sells a program to submit these electronic claim files.

    13. Re:This is silly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Minor nit, it is HIPAA not HIPPA.

  4. Proper coding != fraud by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It's not clear to me that medicare providers changing their coding is the same as fraud. If a doctor was coding for a 10 minute E&M (evaluation and management) but was actually spending 20 minutes with the patient, then it's totally reasonable for them to change their coding. If EMRs are making it more obvious that the practice users are mis-coding, then this is at worst an unintended side-effect of the EMRs.

    (Full disclosure, I work for a company that builds EMR systems.)

    1. Re:Proper coding != fraud by salesgeek · · Score: 4, Informative

      The issue is changing from an E&M to an intensive care E&M. Same procedure, higher payout. Same goes for taking a common tests that are bundled and breaking them into smaller component tests. A few wears ago I met with an Ausie founder of a startup that was talking about how revolutionary their software was that would optimize billing codes to ensure maximum revenue per procedure by basically scanning a billing batch and re-coding it using more lucrative codes for the same procedures. I waked on doing any development for them.

      --
      -- $G
    2. Re:Proper coding != fraud by Sir_Sri · · Score: 2

      It would seem like a benefit of the system that you can actually get paid for the work you did, rather than being narrowly restricted to a handful of codes and having to 'pick the closest', where you go from say a 25% error on paper to 10% electronically that's good.

      Obviously there will be fraud - even in a fully nationalized healthcare system doctors still try and find ways to get more money for the same work. It's management and oversights job to prevent it, and the more tools they have to find it, the better. It's the same problem with any workers, if you pay them by the hour they try and find a way to take more hours at a higher rate, if you pay per procedure they try and find a way to do more (or more expensive) procedures, if you pay them a salary they do the minimum necessary to qualify for yearly promotions and why do anymore when you get paid the same either way?

      As hard as we try to hold doctors to a higher ethical standard than the average person (and pay them well for it) they are as greedy as the rest of us.

    3. Re:Proper coding != fraud by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Disclosure: I also work for a company that develops EHR systems.

      This article is clearly targeted FUD designed to scare the masses by tying electronic medical records in with already controversial topics such as the ACA (Obamacare). EHR systems implement tracking and statistical analysis features that allow a much closer analysis of billing trends. This article reads as if billing fraud didn't exist before EHRs - this is absurdly false.

      What many EHR systems DO offer is the ability to calculate when physicians should bill at a higher code level. This results in higher bills than what was seen pre-EHR because way back when, physicians would commonly underbill to avoid costly Medicare audits. EHRs are giving physicians the confidence and support that they need to justify billing at a higher code level in circumstances that warrant it.

      tl;dr: More Slashdot FUD scaremongering. Par for the course.

    4. Re:Proper coding != fraud by plover · · Score: 1

      I think that the electronic records are probably making it easier for physicians to bill more accurately, not necessarily more "lucratively". Electronic recordkeeping doesn't turn otherwise honest people into fraudsters overnight. So I don't see the increase in billing as tied to an increase in fraud.

      Now, the Australian company you declined to work for, they seem like the kinds of scum who hospital administrators might hire to commit wholesale fraud. That obviously would give rise to increased billing rates. If there's still a sliver of justice in the world, they'll go to jail for falsifying records.

      --
      John
    5. Re:Proper coding != fraud by kelemvor4 · · Score: 1

      optimize billing codes to ensure maximum revenue per procedure by basically scanning a billing batch and re-coding it using more lucrative codes for the same procedures.

      Sounds to me like the coding system need to be revamped to remove the duplications if possible.

    6. Re:Proper coding != fraud by salesgeek · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Now, the Australian company you declined to work for, they seem like the kinds of scum who hospital administrators might hire to commit wholesale fraud. That obviously would give rise to increased billing rates. If there's still a sliver of justice in the world, they'll go to jail for falsifying records.

      Both the company providing the service and people enriched by using that service need to be held accountable.

      --
      -- $G
    7. Re:Proper coding != fraud by sjames · · Score: 1

      The problem is that the 'underbilling' is still costing patients four times what healthcare costs anywhere in the civilized world.

    8. Re:Proper coding != fraud by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 0

      The issue is changing from an E&M to an intensive care E&M. Same procedure, higher payout. Same goes for taking a common tests that are bundled and breaking them into smaller component tests. A few wears ago I met with an Ausie founder of a startup that was talking about how revolutionary their software was that would optimize billing codes to ensure maximum revenue per procedure by basically scanning a billing batch and re-coding it using more lucrative codes for the same procedures. I waked on doing any development for them.

      If that's what they're doing it's easily detectable. Somebody at Medicare should be looking at the billing records and saying, "It can't be right for every procedure to be billed at the highest possible code when they're a regular full-service hospital. These people are cheating us and I have a red phone on my desk to the Department of Justice Prosecutor's office."

    9. Re:Proper coding != fraud by ColdWetDog · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Different problem (a real problem but a different problem).

      The big issue here is how the billing codes are set up for physician encounters. You determine the code (and hence the charge) with a laundry list of things - how many issues you covered in your interview, how many parts of the body you examined, how much extra detail you went into (family history, smoking history and the like).

      Then you get brownie points for medical complexity.

      So, you add all of this up and you get your E&M code (Evaluation and Management). Now, in the olden days you had to manually keep track of how many 'points' you were wracking up. Amazingly enough, computers can add! So the program keeps track of all the little points and thus can maximize the code. Extra bonus points for the program 'helpfully' pointing out a few things you might have missed (did you ask about smoking? Vaccines?) - you can then go back and do them (or at least say that you did) and up code.

      The other problem is cut and paste - you can take the Past Medical History of the patient and copy it from one encounter to another. Now, that seems perfectly reasonable - you WANT to know this stuff, it's important and that's why you take the time to write it down. However, you don't need to go through a 45 minute interview with the patient ever time you see them - but that's what the billing codes assumed you did. Now Medicare has decided if you copied the old data that's "fraud".

      Basically, you have a clumsy, prehistoric system for coding physician encounters that has been computerized without much thought as to what happens after the fact.

      One of my favorite aphorisms in this arena is "Computerizing chaos yields computerized chaos."

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    10. Re:Proper coding != fraud by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 5, Informative

      Somebody at Medicare should be looking at the billing records and saying, "It can't be right for every procedure to be billed at the highest possible code when they're a regular full-service hospital. These people are cheating us and I have a red phone on my desk to the Department of Justice Prosecutor's office."

      If there are two legal, legitimate ways to code for a given procedure, why would a clinic not bill for the more expensive of the two? Medicare - not the hospitals - sets the reimbursement rates and defines the codes. If they didn't intend for the higher code to be billable, they should have written the definition so that it wasn't.

      There are also lots of coding seminars that teach doctors things like "if you ask question X during the history and physical part of their exam, you can bill code #123-2 instead of your normal #123-1. You're already doing 95% of the work to qualify for #123-2, which pays double of #123-1, so why not do the extra 5% and double your income?". Again, Medicare and the insurance companies are settings those standards. Sucks to be them if health care providers decide to play by the rules that have been dictated to them.

      Let's put it in tax terms. Suppose that if you give $10,000 to charity, you get a $5,000 tax break. Your accountant notices that you've already given $9,500 to charity and advises you to donate $500 more before the end of the year. You do so, and that $500 turns into a $5,000 benefit for you. Are you cheating? You didn't make the rules. You're playing entirely within the codes that Congress has set. It would ring a little hollow for Congress to complain that you're defrauding the IRS of $5,000 by going along with the procedures that they put in place.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    11. Re:Proper coding != fraud by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      I think that the electronic records are probably making it easier for physicians to bill more accurately, not necessarily more "lucratively"

      Except this story is precisely about it being more lucrative, even if more "accurate." Doctors and hospitals are getting more now than they used to, for the same services they were always providing. Thats the very definition of "more lucrative."

      What the electronic billing is allowing, as other have mentioned, is for the doctors and hospitals to automate getting the most they can for the services provided depending on who is doing the paying.

      This is equivalent to an online store offering different prices to different people for the same product depending on a profile of the persons willingness and ability to pay. This isnt newly happening in the medical industry, but now its automated to maximize.

      Of course if a politician were to propose medicare cuts, which would eventually translate into less money available for the doctors and hospitals to maximize upon, that would be "war on the elderly" because thats how a particular party has framed that sort of thing...

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    12. Re:Proper coding != fraud by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      Sounds to me like the coding system need to be revamped to remove the duplications if possible.

      ..or what the hospitals and doctors are doing, adding more codes to increase maximization opportunity. Medicare will pay as much as this, so thats code X.. Hartford will pay as much as this, so thats code Y.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    13. Re:Proper coding != fraud by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

      Would you walk if it was for tax reporting software to maximize deductible expenses and limit tax liability?

      This stuff exists. The rule is generally pretty clear on the line between fraud and "optimizing."

    14. Re:Proper coding != fraud by salesgeek · · Score: 1

      If that's what they're doing it's easily detectable.

      If only someone was really looking... and there was the will to prosecute people for fraud.

      --
      -- $G
    15. Re:Proper coding != fraud by salesgeek · · Score: 2

      If there are two legal, legitimate ways to code for a given procedure, why would a clinic not bill for the more expensive of the two? Medicare - not the hospitals - sets the reimbursement rates and defines the codes. If they didn't intend for the higher code to be billable, they should have written the definition so that it wasn't.

      If a care provider is doing additional services with the only objective being getting paid more and not treating the patient, it is fraud - even if it just five percent extra.

      The ones that really get me are where the care provider does a little creative coding:

      Doctor applies band-aid to cut. Bills as primary care band-aid application. Is authorized $26.
      Doctor applies band-aid to cut. Bills as emergency band-adi application. Is authorized $921.

      The problem with all of this is that doctors are being paid for proceedures instead of being paid to make people better. If you pay for proceedures, there is a reverse incentive to make people well (or in other words, keeping people sick is good for business).

      --
      -- $G
    16. Re:Proper coding != fraud by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      If a care provider is doing additional services with the only objective being getting paid more and not treating the patient, it is fraud - even if it just five percent extra.

      So you're opposed to using objective rules like "provider performed and documented X, so they're entitled to bill for X" in favor of "provider performed and documented X, but that doesn't feel right". Down that path lies insanity.

      Doctor applies band-aid to cut. Bills as emergency band-adi application. Is authorized $921.

      Even if they met all the requirement to bill as emergency band-aid application, you still feel it's fraudulent? You're not a fan of rule-of-law, are you.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    17. Re:Proper coding != fraud by jamstar7 · · Score: 2

      optimize billing codes to ensure maximum revenue per procedure by basically scanning a billing batch and re-coding it using more lucrative codes for the same procedures.

      Sounds to me like the coding system need to be revamped to remove the duplications if possible.

      Problem is, there's usually 2-5 different ways to code in any given procedure, and the codes can change at any time. That's how insurance companies delay payment to make their bottom lines look better to their shareholders, they'll kick the form back to the doctor's office/medical billing office with a note saying 'You coded this wrong. Recode and resubmit please' and push payment to a later date. Of course, it's a house of cards that should have come down ages ago, but computerised systems allow them to keep juggling paperwork and numbers in even larger volumes than they used to be able to.

      --
      Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
    18. Re:Proper coding != fraud by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

      If that's what they're doing it's easily detectable.

      If only someone was really looking... and there was the will to prosecute people for fraud.

      You missed this? http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2012/May/12-ag-568.html and this? http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/story/2011-08-29/Health-care-fraud-prosecutions-on-pace-to-rise-85/50180282/1 "WASHINGTON – New government statistics show federal health care fraud prosecutions in the first eight months of 2011 are on pace to rise 85% over last year due in large part to ramped-up enforcement efforts under the Obama administration...."

    19. Re:Proper coding != fraud by Rich0 · · Score: 2

      The issue is that electronic records ups the ante for both sides. Medicare can better understand what is going on and optimize their reimbursement rates. The hospital can better understand what is going on and game medicare. And so on...

      I suspect the goal of doctors is to take the least time possible filling out codes on a form. I know most doctor's I've seen have a checklist of codes that are common in their practice that they just mark off. They could care less if they're "accurate" as long as they're defensible.

      That data goes into the computer, which likely "optimizes" them as was described. If one code describes a barrage of tests that is cheap, and 50 other codes are a la carte and more expensive, but they're still factually correct, then the program picks the latter. No doctor would sit and write 50 codes to get an extra $10 for the visit. However, a computer can transform 1 code into 50 for all 40 visits of the day in about 10 millseconds and the doctor can buy himself an iPad every other day.

    20. Re:Proper coding != fraud by Rich0 · · Score: 2

      Honestly, I think the only real fix for many of the woes we suffer is for a judge to occasionally issue the following verdict: "I find that the defendant corporation acted completely within the law. I find that the CEO of the defendant operated completely within the law and is legally shielded from any personal liability. I find that the CEO is also a scumbag. Bailiff, please shoot the CEO now, thanks." It wouldn't need to happen often - just often enough to make "taking advantage of your legal rights" a matter of rolling the dice.

      The lawmakers don't have nearly the incentive to create airtight laws as everybody else has to find loopholes. So, a society that forces itself to rigidly live by the "rule of law" is forced to commit legal suicide.

    21. Re:Proper coding != fraud by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      So you're opposed to using objective rules like "provider performed and documented X, so they're entitled to bill for X" in favor of "provider performed and documented X, but that doesn't feel right". Down that path lies insanity.

      I'm not sure it is a matter of X being the same though. If the situation is as the GP presented and X is a band aid, then the method of service would be different so it would actually be x-1 verses x+1 depending on the method of service.

      Even if they met all the requirement to bill as emergency band-aid application, you still feel it's fraudulent? You're not a fan of rule-of-law, are you.

      I'm not the GP but I would say it is fraudulent insomuch that the billing could be that much absorbingly higher then the actual costs.I'm not sure how a band aid or putting a band aid on a patient could costs so much and be supported by law or normal process. I don't know if the spread is really that much or if it was something he pulled out of the air to make a point. But if they billing is able to be even close to that kind of mark up, there are serious problems with what we are paying.

    22. Re:Proper coding != fraud by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >You're not a fan of rule-of-law, are you.
      I bet you're one of those people DMs hate.

    23. Re:Proper coding != fraud by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      Not really. It's just that the dragons are real in this game, and the dungeons aren't nearly as fun.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    24. Re:Proper coding != fraud by meosborne · · Score: 1

      If a procedure can legitimately be coded in multiple ways, then as the payer I would certainly pay you for the least expensive code regardless of the code you billed me for. That should be agreeable to you since it is also playing by the same rules.

    25. Re:Proper coding != fraud by meosborne · · Score: 1

      The problem with your scenario is that that extra 5% is *not* necessary to the care of the patient and is done simply to be able to charge a higher fee. That, my friend, is certainly fraud. Your charity analogy is not relevant here. You can give *your* money to whomever you wish, but the money here is *not* yours. It comes from someone else. A better analogy would be someone who is paid by the hour "checking a few additional things" simply to get the time over the pay hump. Would *you* be OK with that if you were paying?

    26. Re:Proper coding != fraud by meosborne · · Score: 1

      What you say is correct and absolutely believe that physician should be paid for necessary work. However, EHR systems also facilitate the performance of extra work for the sole purpose of being able to bump the E&M (i.e., office visit) code to the next pay level.

    27. Re:Proper coding != fraud by salesgeek · · Score: 1

      An increase of 85% just scratches the surface.

      --
      -- $G
    28. Re:Proper coding != fraud by salesgeek · · Score: 1

      Even if they met all the requirement to bill as emergency band-aid application, you still feel it's fraudulent? You're not a fan of rule-of-law, are you

      The intent of the emergency band-aid is to compensate for the difference in cost between the emergency room and a primary care physician's office. Very rarely would a primary care office meet the requirements of being an emergency room... but the descriptions of the procedure may be the same.

      I'm actually a big fan of the rule of law. The problem with healthcare billing is that is too easy for care providers to deceive the payer.

      --
      -- $G
    29. Re:Proper coding != fraud by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

      An increase of 85% just scratches the surface.

      Possibly, but it's moving in the right direction and fast.

    30. Re:Proper coding != fraud by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      If a procedure can legitimately be coded in multiple ways, then as the payer I would certainly pay you for the least expensive code regardless of the code you billed me for.

      Now you're just being obstinate. The contracts are written like:

      Code #123
      Requirements:
      * Does something
      * Does something else

      Code #123.2
      Requirements:
      * Does the same something from #123
      * Does the same something else from #123
      * Does one extra thing

      Suppose the doctor legitimately performs all three requirements to bill for code #123.2. Playing by the rules that were given to them, they are legally entitled to be reimbursed for the more advanced (and expensive) code #123.2. Since the contract says that if you do the work then you can get paid for it, they'd be dumb to walk away from the extra money.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    31. Re:Proper coding != fraud by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shouldn't the solution to this be "In healthcare payment reform bill, we adjust the authorized payment for billing code 123.4 from $921 to $31*" or something similar? I admit, there are grounds for increasing the rate a bit for emergency IF emergency staff or facilities used incur significantly higher costs, e.g. if for some screwy reason they put you in the ICU and then had to clean it rather than replace the rumpled paper where you sat on the bench in the primary care office.

    32. Re:Proper coding != fraud by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      The point that seems to be the issue (And the issues are hard to get to because everyone talking about it tries to lie to make their side sound better), is that the same procedure can be billed at different rates. And should be. I waited in the hospital for hours after a car crash waiting for an MRI to check for spinal damage before they'd let me out of the restraints I was secured in. I waited for multiple heart attack victims, who got priority. I even got wheeled to the room before being moved back to make room for the next. If they got higher priority, they should be charged more (and the hospital should take that increased income to get a second machine). But if there are two costs to an "emergency" MRI, then everyone will be billed at the higher rate. Every non-emergency MRI will be billed as emergency because they can. "It was a car crash" would make a good excuse in my case. I was stable, doing fine, but waiting to move to make sure that moving wouldn't leave me paralyzed. I could have waited days, the guys with heart attacks couldn't wait long, as knowing whether it's ischemic or aneurysm changes the treatment. But when billing comes down, they'll bill the MRIs at the highest available code, regardless of the circumstances.

      The question is whether the billing codes are excessively vague, or the doctors are committing excessive fraud.

    33. Re:Proper coding != fraud by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      I work for a large company. When we change things, we count the process cost in the millions. Why? Because maybe 100 people will have it pass their desks, and hundreds of sign-offs and approvals. And they pass through things like congressional committees.

      But, what comes out is someone, somewhere, would have noticed that history need only be taken once in a patient's life. Only one doctor ever should every claim they evaluated the "history" at a particular code. Then, after that, a "history update, 0-1 years, 1-5 years, 5-10 years or 10+ years" as the doctor will have the last history collected and be able to go from there. There's no need to collect an hour of history on every visit, and "has anything changed from last week" shouldn't be billed at an hour.

      I can think of 10 easy ways to deal with such a problem. But I have no input into the process. The AMA are the only NGO with any real power over the process (and AARP is told they do, but they don't ever try to do anything more than chant "don't cut or we'll not vote for you"), and the AMA has a vested interest in breaking the system in a particular way to benefit their members.

      What I've never understood is why the anti-union Republicans have *never* gone after the most powerful union in the US, the AMA. Only a few professional organizations (like the engineering ones) even come close, but they stay out of politics so that they don't exercise the power they might have. But the AMA union of doctors has and exercises political power on a regular basis. Perhaps it's because they use it to help the well off and not help the poor that the Republicans support that union so strongly, but one that helps workers is obviously a communist plot and must be stopped.

      Wait, what was the question again?

  5. maybe not... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    and it might be that instead of fraud, we are better able to document what we do instead of down coding for fear of getting a medicare audit. We finally can prove that we do all the work they say we don't.

  6. There's a problem on both ends by rickyb · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Yes, some physicians will abuse the system. Some will do so willingly, while others will do so out of ignorance. However, many physicians at large academic medical centers (also known as "residents"), are not taught how to code and bill at all until they reach independent practice. This leads to very bad habits and often to underbilling quite significantly for their services. They all do the work, but don't appreciate the importance of recording and documenting the work for billing purposes, leaving money on the table. This impacts primary care most of all, where margins are very slim, and many physicians are struggling to remain solvent. EMRs actually take care of the coding and billing far more efficiently and accurately than the physicians themselves. But as the saying goes, "garbage-in, garbage-out." The coding is only as accurate as the physician documentation. The vast majority of physicians do not intentionally document erroneously to inflate billing - once the error is pointed out to them, they are more than willing to fix it. And for those physicians who are maliciously abusing the system, there's no better solution than EMRs to record and track this behavior.

    1. Re:There's a problem on both ends by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      This isn't about leaving money on the table. This is about gaming the system. I walked into the Doctor's Hospital emergency room with my wife. She had an infected horsefly bite. It had turned black and was about the size of a 50 cent piece, so I was worried. I was referred to that emergency room by my boss at the time who was a surgeon. He looked at it for free. So we waited 2 hours before we were seen. Then we waited another two hours with my wife sitting on a gurney in the hall. She was given an IV drip and after running some lab tests, she was given 2 prescriptions for anti-biotics.

      I'm not explaining this because I think you care. I'm explaining it because the IV, labs, and two prescriptions is what bumped us up from a 99281 - Bug Bite, to a 99284 - severe blunt trauma. We left that emergency room with two prescriptions an a $4150 bill. Thanks Dr. Edwin Hsu. And thanks Doctor's Hospital of Coral Gables. They're a non-profit ya know. That means they aren't paying taxes for treating $4K bug bites.

      My wife requested an itemized bill explaining the charges twice. They said it was 'in the mail' but we never received it. The closest we ever got was the original billing statement of $80 for the labs, ~$550 for the 99284, and the rest was evidently for the use of the gurney. I called back while she was in Asia requesting the itemized bill twice again. They hid behind HIPAA despite the fact that I paid the bill and my wife had requested the information twice already. When she returned, we moved out of state, but not before we called several government answering machines seeking justice. No response their either. They just don't give a fuck.

      But it could have been much worse. This is what we call health care reform in the US... $100 bottle of antivenom for $40000 at a 'non profit' hospital.

    2. Re:There's a problem on both ends by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A 99284 requires:

      A detailed history

      A detailed examination

      Medical decision making of moderate complexity.

      Also, the problem should be of high severity and require urgent evaluation by a physician but not be an immediate threat to life or function.

      Doesn't sound like it required urgent evaluation if you had to wait four hours. Did they do the first two?

    3. Re:There's a problem on both ends by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The doctor spent a total of 10 minutes with her. The only history they asked was allergy information as they were entering her into the computer. For the first two hours, the only urgent evaluation she received was someone in scrubs taking her blood pressure.

  7. The real fraud... by OldSport · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...is how much health care costs in the first place.

    1. Re:The real fraud... by Deathlizard · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The Real Fraud is how much health care costs in the first place.

      The main reason for that is simple. Insurance and Litigation

      1) You Need Insurance to get healthcare, because healthcare costs too much.
      2) Your Doctor Needs Insurance because you might sue him for malpractice, the state he's in requires it, or both, Raising the cost of healthcare.
      3) The pharmaceuticals your Doctor prescribes you needs Insurance because you might sue them for complications. Raising the cost of healthcare.
      4) Your Hospital needs insurance because you might sue them for hiring the doctor that you sued for malpractice, or because he prescribed you something that didn't work, or the state they are located in requires it or a combination of all of the above. raising the cost of healthcare.
      5) The ambulance chasing lawyer on TV needs more money to buy TV commercials to help you, so he sues the insurance companies of your doctor, the pharmaceutical company, and your hospital for malpractice, so you get the 5-25% of the total compensation that you deserve and he pockets the 75%-95% to pay for his paper costs and time, which of course, Raises the cost of Insurance, which in turn raises the cost of healthcare.
      1) Repeat step 1

      Until we get a president and congress that will pass healthcare reform that will truly end this cycle for good, expect your health costs to skyrocket.

    2. Re:The real fraud... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Malpractice reform will lead to mabye 3% reduction in costs. But somehow you think it's the main driver of costs. Republicans like to bang the malpractice is causing all the problems drum but they are at least honest it's a minor addition of costs.

      Besides, the litigation explosion and huge increase in jury awards was more than 20 years ago. During Reagan's time. Lawsuits and awards have steadily declined sine the 80s. So why hasn't health care cost fallen since you think it's increasing costs exponentially?

    3. Re:The real fraud... by ScentCone · · Score: 3, Informative

      Republicans like to bang the malpractice is causing all the problems drum but they are at least honest it's a minor addition of costs.

      You are (deliberately, it seems) missing the big picture. It isn't malpractice, per se. It's the enormous use of people, supplies, fantasitcally expensive equipment, time, space, and a mile-long wake of paperwork that comes from practicing over-the-top procedures, tests, and drug use designed to fend off spurious malpractice suits. So something like a $10 urine dip-stick test that could be done a couple of times over a couple of 5-minute office visits becomes a $2500 speciality lab visit to the hospital so that the doctor's favorite specialist can do a bladder exam ... so that one in a hundred thousand people who might have more than a the normal drop of blood in their urine and also happen to have something else you might catch through the multi-thousand-dollar exame might be caught sooner, though not likely.

      Multiply that scenario by thousands of other conditions and tests, mostly involving entire teams of people operating hideously expensive radiological devices or blood sniffing devices, and all of the record keeping, etc., and you've got your ridiculous costs. And it's all done to avoid making malpractice insurance premiums go even higher, because of slimes like John Edwards who get rich over nonsense suits. The suits are down because spending to head them off has gone through the roof, by untold billions of dollars.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    4. Re:The real fraud... by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Not what my doctor says, though it is a plausible contributor to one of the problems he identifies. He's been paying malpractice insurance premiums for forty years and has been an expert witness in malpractice cases, so he knows what he's talking about.

      He sees the problem as fueled by unnecessary procedures and caramelization (wow, that's a great autocorrect failure. I wrote cartel-ization). Unnecessary procedures might be caused by fear of litigation(*), or by a desire to milk the system.

      Drug companies like to say that their prices are necessary to recoup research costs, but that doesn't explain doubling the price of a drug after it's already on the market. He's seen that happen.

      Health insurance companies have lavish offices in expensive parts of downtown. They didn't get that money by being lean, scrappy competitors.

      What he wants to see happen is single payer! That doesn't have to mean government, by the way. A nonprofit mutual insurance company is an option.

      (*) If skipping a test might lead to a lawsuit, then skipping the test might lead to a patient getting hurt, in which case it's a necessary test.

    5. Re:The real fraud... by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Even if you factor all of that in, it probably represents something like 20-30% of the 'extra' costs in US medicine. It's a significant and important aspect of the problem, but it's not the sole nor major driver.

      Briefly you have:

      - The issue of 'defensive medicine' as you point out.
      - The issue that much of US medicine is set up as a for profit entity with expectations of increasing growth and profits. Many of the big players are heavily leveraged.
      - The multiple sacred cows - physicians, insurers, hospitals and, not least, patient expectations (I want that MRI and I want it NOW).
      - And the fact that it's a highly complex, labor intensive field.

      Hard to fix something that crazy.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    6. Re:The real fraud... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The most important problem is people are living longer, get sick more, and die less. It is much cheaper to take care of dead people. Hard to fix that problem too.

    7. Re:The real fraud... by jopsen · · Score: 2

      A nonprofit mutual insurance company is an option.

      Wow, you guys really don't have that? (I would have expected that)
      As a European I have my country (which runs the hospitals and keeps cost down), and if I want even more healthcare insurance, dental, glasses, contacts, different styles of pseudo-scientific treatments not proven scientifically valid, we have self-owning non-profit organizations offering decent insurance plans.

      Anyways, I don't think that's enough. My government recently experimented with private hospitals, off-loading patients on waiting list to private hospitals. Result was very expensive, enough said.
      So you probably need to seize control of the hospitals, run them at state-level and make a federal law which mandates that states must provide healthcare proving scientifically valid (and within a reasonable cost). Then let the private sector do all the pseudo scientific treatments and offer insurance for these.

    8. Re:The real fraud... by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      The real reason is healthcare is expensive. An average heart surgeon can make $500k a year. You think hip replacements are cheap? You can reduce the cost of malpractice insurance, but you're still going to run into the problem of doctors getting paid a lot.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    9. Re:The real fraud... by FhnuZoag · · Score: 2

      You are (deliberately, it seems) missing the big picture. It isn't malpractice, per se. It's the enormous use of people, supplies, fantasitcally expensive equipment, time, space, and a mile-long wake of paperwork that comes from practicing over-the-top procedures, tests, and drug use designed to fend off spurious malpractice suits. So something like a $10 urine dip-stick test that could be done a couple of times over a couple of 5-minute office visits becomes a $2500 speciality lab visit to the hospital so that the doctor's favorite specialist can do a bladder exam ... so that one in a hundred thousand people who might have more than a the normal drop of blood in their urine and also happen to have something else you might catch through the multi-thousand-dollar exame might be caught sooner, though not likely.

      That doesn't make sense. If the hospitals are behaving rationally, the amount of money they would spend on avoiding malpractice suits would be in proportion to their expected cost of loss from the suits themselves. If malpractice actually accounts for a very small amount of money, then either these people have no idea and are going way over the top, or there's other reasons to over-treat.

      The real reason, I reckon, is that the medical system in the US is internally antagonistic. *Everyone is screwing each other over.* News like what we've seen above is an example - people are out for themselves, and care not about end results, but about making money. Contrast the unified systems under European socialised healthcare - those systems work, because up and down the tier, people are incentivised to *cooperate* and deliver good care at low cost, instead of sabotaging each other in pursuit of short term gain.

    10. Re:The real fraud... by GlennC · · Score: 1

      The real reason, I reckon, is that the US is internally antagonistic. *Everyone is screwing each other over.*

      FTFY...and I was born and raised in the US.

      --
      Go on, citizen, stamp the vote card. R or D, your choice.
    11. Re:The real fraud... by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      If the hospitals are behaving rationally, the amount of money they would spend on avoiding malpractice suits would be in proportion to their expected cost of loss from the suits themselves

      You don't get it. They aren't spending the money. You are spending the money. For them, it's just a cost they pass along, which is completely rational. If your cost of operating goes up, you raise your prices in order to not go bankrupt. Simple as that. Which means it's the patients that pay. Except many don't, which means it's a small minority of the patients that pay.

      these people have no idea and are going way over the top

      They don't see it as going over the top. They see it as taking steps - which someone else pays for - in order to not be sued for millions of dollars by ambulance chasers every single day.

      people are out for themselves, and care not about end results, but about making money

      Do you care if you make enough money to keep functioning? Do you want your employer to care enough to make enough money to make sure your paycheck doesn't bounce? If nobody cares about covering an organization's costs, then the organization collapses. That not only costs jobs, but it removes a health care facility from whatever demographic wasn't paying enough to keep it a viable operation. Not that I want to see tax-based health care, but even if it was all based on taxes, somebody has to allocate $X to one hospital, and $Y to another. If they don't care about the actual amount of $, what do you think is going to happen?

      instead of sabotaging each other in pursuit of short term gain

      The only people who stand to gain by playing gotcha - the only people - are the trial lawyers who make an industry out of suing doctors for a living.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    12. Re:The real fraud... by artor3 · · Score: 2

      No, wrong. And frankly, evil.

      1) You need insurance because healthcare is legitimately expensive, and only the top 10% or so can afford to self-insure. Insurance in the US is more expensive than it ought to be because our system is a mess, with dozens of insurers and thousands of plans.
      2) Your doctor needs insurance because he might make a mistake that literally costs you a limb, or worse. My friend lost his arm because the surgeon forgot to take the gauze out. Are you really going to argue that the doctor shouldn't have to make that up to him?
      3) Pharmaceutical companies need insurance because when they make a mistake, it can ruin countless lives. Are you again gonna claim that people who's lives are destroyed do not deserve any recourse?

      And so on...

      Your attitude seems to be that society should leave the unlucky to die, so that costs can be lower for the rest of us. That's a tempting argument, if you're a self-centered, short-sighted monster. But someday, someone you care about will be the unlucky one. Maybe even you.

    13. Re:The real fraud... by jamstar7 · · Score: 1

      The most important problem is people are living longer, get sick more, and die less. It is much cheaper to take care of dead people. Hard to fix that problem too.

      Older people don't get as sick if they have access to preventative medicine. They tend to catch the lifethreatening shit long before it can become a bigassed bankrupting-expensive 'fix'. And no matter how you slice it, you don't get more than a cursory 'annual physical' where all they do is check your pulse ('Yup, he still got one'), blood pressure, and simple in-house 'lab tests' like, put a drop of blood on a blood sugar meter test strip, all disguised as 'preventative medicine' that your insurance carrier 'provides'.

      --
      Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
    14. Re:The real fraud... by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Drugs are priced like any other product - they charge as much as they can get away with, and often they charge less until something becomes popular, so that it becomes popular. The cost of any particular drug bears no relationship to what it cost to develop, though if the company didn't think it could eventually have made a decent income from the drug they wouldn't have developed it in the first place (sometimes things don't work out, and it is better to sell it cheap than not sell it).

      The catch is that it is also true that if they cost a lot less across the board, it wouldn't be profitable to research them. They certainly could cost somewhat less though, especially if they cost more in other first-world nations.

      That said, tort reform is certainly part of the solution, as is drug reform, billing reform, and about a million other reforms. There really is no "one thing" that is wrong with US healthcare. It is a lot of fairly large problems that snowball into one gargantuan mess.

      As far as lavish offices in expensive parts of downtown go - that really isn't a reflection of insane profits so much as insane corporate governance in the US in general. If they were losing money the last thing they'd get rid of is the lavish executive offices. The worker bees are all already working in cube farms, trust me, and if everybody works harder and pulls in an extra billion dollars that year $0 will go towards furniture upgrades for the rank and file, and most of it would go to executive bonuses.

    15. Re:The real fraud... by Ostracus · · Score: 1

      Until we get a president and congress that will pass healthcare reform that will truly end this cycle for good, expect your health costs to skyrocket.

      How's healthcare reform going to address the patient's desire to sue people?

      --
      Shai Schticks:"You don't make peace with friends, you make peace with enemies"
    16. Re:The real fraud... by Ostracus · · Score: 1

      Pretty much and what the above poster left out isn't just "making money". There's also the desire to not "spend money" which can have comparable effects to the other.

      --
      Shai Schticks:"You don't make peace with friends, you make peace with enemies"
    17. Re:The real fraud... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The main reason for that is simple. Insurance and Litigation..."

      Nothing about what you mention is unique to the US, yet healthcare in the US is by far the most expensive and the least accessible in the world.

      The ultimate evidence for that is in the numbers of life expectancy and child mortality where the US ranks 38 and 34 respectively, behind Cuba and most European countries.

      What is unique about US healthcare is the extent of privatization and deregulation.

    18. Re:The real fraud... by Cutterman · · Score: 1

      Absolutely right! Mac, M.D.

    19. Re:The real fraud... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even if you factor all of that in, it probably represents something like 20-30% of the 'extra' costs in US medicine.

      Not sure where you got that number, but I suspect the real cost of defensive medicine is far higher that 30%. I know a doctor who works in an Army hospital where they don't have to worry about malpractice lawsuits but they still do many, many unnecessary tests (MRI, etc) because they're afraid of bad publicity from the one in a thousand patients who has a bad outcome and calls the local newspaper.

    20. Re:The real fraud... by volmtech · · Score: 1

      You can't have single payer without single provider. Otherwise you get quarter billion medicare (single payer) fraud cases times ten. As a GSA employee a doctor collects her paycheck and there is no worry about coding and no financial gain or liability concerns to run unnecessary tests. If all medical care is government provided all insurance cost (health and malpractice) go away.

    21. Re:The real fraud... by FhnuZoag · · Score: 1

      You don't get it. They aren't spending the money. You are spending the money. For them, it's just a cost they pass along, which is completely rational. If your cost of operating goes up, you raise your prices in order to not go bankrupt. Simple as that. Which means it's the patients that pay. Except many don't, which means it's a small minority of the patients that pay.

      If patients are willing to spend that much money on medical treatment, then they could just charge that much money... and take it as pure profit, and not actually put in place supposedly anti-malpractice measures. If malpractice suits are costing them 3% operating cost, but anti-malpractice measures are costing them far far more, then by definition, then anti-malpractice measures are unprofitable. It's inescapable that if we accept the figures, that suits are only 3%, that (you claim) anti-malpractice measures are way more, then taking anti-malpractice measures is way overpriced and hurting providers' bottom line.

    22. Re:The real fraud... by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      If malpractice suits are costing them 3% operating cost

      You still don't get it. The spending is done in order to prevent those suits from happening in the first place. The 3% (for example) represents the suits that do happen. When a trial lawyer, working on a contingency fee and trying to decide if there's a big windfall available, looks at what the doctors did before Mrs. Nusbaum died, and see that an entire battery of tests was run for $15,000, they know right away that they can't just dive in for a $1,000,000 suit or settlement by being able to claim the doctors didn't run every conceivable test. They're looking for low-hanging fruit that it won't cost them (the trial lawyers) a lot of money to trot out as a possibly ineffective angle in front of a jury.

      So the doctors/hospital use the entire gambit of tests and procedures - even when they aren't even remotely necessary - so that when Mrs. Nusbaum inevitably dies of old age anyway, her family's lawyer (which they hired from a late night TV ad and a web site) can't squeeze millions of dollars out of the hospital and everyone associated with it for having failed to be heroic or failed to use every possible tool, no matter how expensive, at their disposal. Don't you see? The hospital spends all that money on pointless tests and treatments for dying people so that the lawyers will simply give up and go away. They are fending off suits, pre-emptively, by practicing a huge amount of unnecessary, expensive care involving lab techs, nurses, doctors, equipment contractors, supplies, and time. None of that shows up in your law suit dollar stats because it's done to prevent expensive, frivalous lawsuits that trial lawyers win by convincing idiot juries that Mrs. Nusbaum could have lived at least another 10 days in cancer-ridden misery if it weren't for those evil doctors not finding another $125,000 worth of stuff to try.

      So why go to all of this trouble? Because the trial lawyers are a big constituency of the democrats in congress who take every possible measure to block tort reform. And that leaves the landscape wide open for those lawyers to make millions of dollars off of single cases. All they have to do is find one or two times a year that some doctor, somewhere, missed trying one little thing on any of the millions of people who are treated for millions of things ... and it's a brand new mansion and a couple new sports cars for the lawyer. And Mrs. Nusbaum is still just as dead as she was going to be anyway.

      Tort reform isn't about the 3% that's spent on lottery-like malpractice awars. It's about the enormous amount that's spent to keep that 3% as low as it is by making every hospital visit as lawyer-proof as possible, even if a sprained ankle costs thousands of dollars by the time it's all done. And there goes the cost of health care, through the roof, for everybody.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    23. Re:The real fraud... by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/24/4/903.full

      Although malpractice litigation is a growing problem in the United States as well as in Australia, Canada, and the United Kingdom, there is limited evidence that it is responsible for much of the difference in health spending levels between the United States and these countries.

      http://prescriptions.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/31/would-tort-reform-lower-health-care-costs/

      As the cost of health care goes up, the medical liability component of it has stayed fairly constant. That means it’s part of the medical price inflation system, but it’s not driving it. The number of claims is small relative to actual cases of medical malpractice.

    24. Re:The real fraud... by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      Have any neutral sources backing those claims up? In the US the amount of litigation, and the regulations and testing procedures, are not much different than other westernized countries, yet our costs are disproportionately much higher.

      http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/24/4/903.full

      It seems a way more simple explanation is to say that our health care costs are high because most health care is delivered by for profit organizations who are going to charge as high a price as the market can bare. Combine that with little to no competition on pricing for various reasons, and we are left with only the worst parts of a partially free market.

      I know that just one factor: by law required emergency room service to any person, has driven many hospitals out of business (one I happened to be working for at the time). So we either strip out much of our laws that we have for moral reasons (emergency care, can't let a kid die because they can't pay), strip out our laws that limit competition, and strip out laws that we have deemed necessary for public safety, and let the buyer attempt to choose intelligently in a real wild west free market..... or, we remove all profit motive from the health care system and go single-payer / universal health care.

    25. Re:The real fraud... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      The Libertardians claim that the free market can be cleansed of fraud by the cost of lawsuits forcing compliance. Then they turn around and pass laws limiting liability so that the costs can't ever be collected, breaking the system they claim should be the *only* check and balance on negligent corporations.

      That's what's happening now. The checks and balances are being put in place in theory, while also being sabotaged by those who put them in place.

      Malpractice is also going down because of spending because the doctors are spending more to prove their innocence. How many surgeries have you had done? Did you get a video of it at the end? I've had two, and the wife one, and we both got a video at the end of the more recent one. My first was an appendectomy 20 years ago, no video. They work harder at protecting themselves, but not necessarily at protecting the patient. There's a difference.

    26. Re:The real fraud... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      1) Overtreatment
      2) Insurance
      3) AMA

      Those are the three largest costs in medicine, not necessarily in order. Why are places like the UK so much cheaper to care for someone over their life, and have them live longer? Single payer "net" for everyone, and private medicine for anyone that wants to get "premium" service. There is less overtreatment with a single-payer system. There is no health insurance with a single-payer system. The single-payer entity takes the place of the AMA. Single payer results in better health outcomes at a much much lower cost. But it'll never happen in the US because all the insurance companies would never let it happen. So there is no solution, and we just use it as another wedge issue in elections.

      Do you want your medical costs to go down significantly and the quality of care increase? Then push for a single-payer system.

    27. Re:The real fraud... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Blame the AMA for that one. It's the most powerful union in the country, but when the conservatives start bashing unions, I never hear it mentioned.

      The AMA artificially limits the number of doctors and controls costs of entry to the medical field. There are fewer, lower paid doctors in most single-payer locations. Why? Because you need fewer doctors if you have an effecient system with GP triage for specialists (though the complaint that they are insufficient specialists seems valid), and pharmacists can prescribe medicines in some cases, limiting the need to return to doctors for prescription refills (my father had doctors visits scheduled every 3 months or so for medicine refills. He'd get a prescription for 1-month of pills, with 3 refils, and would have to go back to the doctor (under Medicaid) to get the refill for the next 3 months.

      Physician Assistants are the *only* concession I've ever seen the AMA give up. All the local clinics have a doctor once a week (for the one I went to, the doc was in Tuesdays, so I always went then, he was great, and was retired and did the one day a week because it paid so well, as the massive clinic chain would have closed if it didn't have an MD to "run" it). Any other day, and it's nurses or PAs (physician's assistants). PAs are essentially doctors, but only when working under supervision of a doctor, and the rules are such that supervision doesn't mean the doctor has to be present, or ever have to supervise.

    28. Re:The real fraud... by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Do you think the AMA would get weaker under a single-payer system?

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    29. Re:The real fraud... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      It would if the single payer system explicitly took over some of the AMA's statutory functions. Are you implying that the current system in any way limits the AMA's power?

    30. Re:The real fraud... by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      The AMA has a lot of political power. I don't see a single-payer system clearly making much difference either way.....it's as likely to give the AMA more power as less.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  8. Easily Predicted... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    In a fee for service environment:

    improved efficiency = increased throughput = higher cost

    savings only come about when you increase throughput on a flat wage, which lowers your per unit cost.

    Unfortunately, healthcare IT (a field in which I work) is one in which the benefits are not immediately realized by the ones who bear the costs. In fact, one could argue that even the benefits (in terms of short term patient harm reduction via medication errors, etc) will really only increase longer term costs when patients live longer and as a result require more care.

    There are fundamental, paradigmatic, changes that need to happen in the healthcare system if it is to survive.

    PS: I'm Canadian, so that is the context of my comment.

  9. Just socialise the damn thing already by ryzvonusef · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You know, I was reading an article where it stated that socialised medicine would cost *less* than what what it costs to run Medicaid and Medicare (on a per person basis)

    You Yanks fear the word "socialist" so much you spend far more to get rid of it!

    --
    I am an ACCA student. Got a query on Accountancy/Finance? Maybe I can help!
    1. Re:Just socialise the damn thing already by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      YOU LIE!!!!1

    2. Re:Just socialise the damn thing already by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      You know, I was reading an article where it stated that socialised medicine would cost *less* than what what it costs to run Medicaid and Medicare (on a per person basis)

      You mean, like all the articles that said it would cost less to switch to electronic records?

    3. Re:Just socialise the damn thing already by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      [citation needed]

    4. Re:Just socialise the damn thing already by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Germans love to provide services via insurance. A huge amount of the social framework is held together by insurance, and it was an easy decision for them to go with the model of healthcare in which you have private hospitals and heavily regulated health insurance providers.

      They had exactly the problem described in the summary: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overutilization

      The only solution anybody could come up with, short of redesigning the entire system, was to force the end user to pay for a certain percentage of the care they recieved out of their own pocket (with a few exceptions in the case of those who really can't pay). It wasn't a great compromise, but it did work.

      You cannot partially socialise health care and expect it to work perfectly. If you want socialised health care, the hospitals have to be integrated into the system or you have to make ugly hacks and compromises to combat overutilisation. Of course, trying to nationalise hospitals in the US would be so ludicrous an idea that it wouldn't even be career suicide to propose it - everybody would just assume it was a bad joke.

    5. Re:Just socialise the damn thing already by xs650 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      >

      You Yanks fear the word "socialist" so much you spend far more to get rid of it!

      You Wanks assume Yanks are all the same. That is not a valid assumption.

    6. Re:Just socialise the damn thing already by MacGyver2210 · · Score: 2

      I'm just thinking of all the social benefits of this.

      Less employes, more automation, and somehow it costs MORE with LESS effort on their part.

      Seems legit. Score another one for Medi*** reform. Wake me up when they actually do something about campaign financing.

      --
      If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can't be taken on its own merits
    7. Re:Just socialise the damn thing already by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I'm from the US, and I'd love great care. Having to wait a bit if better than not getting it at all!

      But hey, I can't compete with your generalizations and anecdotal evidence. You have yours, so who gives a fuck, right?

    8. Re:Just socialise the damn thing already by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      UK here. I have never had to wait for a critical problem. The longest I have had to wait for a non critical problem was about four months which is a perfectly acceptable wait considering that it was non critical visit to a specialist (not a general doctor, you can see them next day at the latest) and regarding your joint replacement comment, my dad is 68 and only had to wait a month for his knee replacement. If you feel like smothering yourself in debt just so you don't have to wait for non critical operations then go ahead, just because you have socialised medicine doesnt mean you cant have private medicine as well..

    9. Re:Just socialise the damn thing already by girlintraining · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You Yanks fear the word "socialist" so much you spend far more to get rid of it!

      You're parroting a commonly held misconception about how politics in the United States works. Firstly, your elected representatives come from more than two parties; Your voters have a wider diversity of candidates to choose from, and are less apt to vote along party lines. This also spreads out the concentration of money paid to your elected representatives by private interests. Put more simply, it's harder to buy legislation in your country. As well, the disparity between the rich and poor is far less pronounced. This results in your legislators being more likely to represent the actual will of the people, rather than the apparent or manufacturered will.

      It's also no small matter that the UK has the BBC. It's more important than you guys give it credit for: The licensing fees you pay are amply repaid not just in terms of quality programming, but also unbiased programming. The BBC can't be co-opted with a corporate buyout. In our country, the media is largely controlled by a few dozen men like Murdock. An informed voter is a voter that can't easily be duped; And the BBC provides a mechanism to prevent your media from becoming too biased towards any one political view. Compare the US section of the BBC with any major news network here -- stories that make front page there, or are internationally relevant, simply don't make it. They aren't reported. It's not just that there's bias in what is reported, there's also things that the public simply isn't told about. You can probably deduce what this means for the political landscape.

      Lastly, the UK was bombed into near-nothingness. The US never has been. The closest we've come to having to reassess economically was the Great Depression. Because we never had to rebuild from scratch, we never learned the social lessons that an experience like that offers -- specifically, we never really developed a cultural center of "We're all in this together". American culture has long been based on individualism -- which during times of material prosperity is great, but during economic trouble, it creates a "blame the victim" mentality. You are poor because you want to be poor, not because some bad shit just happened to drop on your head. The American Dream has become a political crucible -- maintaining our collective ego has forced us into social policies that are ultimately harmful and destructive to our way of life. It's a societal-scale version of the Just World phenomenon.

      It's not socialism per-se that we're afraid of -- it's the idea that we aren't in control of our own fate. That we aren't individuals, but actually part of something more than ourselves, and that our success is determined only in part on our own choices, rather than entirely by it. It's ego protection, individually and collectively. And when you read anti-socialist opinions in our media, they may use the same words you know and understand, but they don't mean the same things. It all goes back to the cold war, the super power stuff, and that collective ego I mentioned earlier.

      For us, socialism is a sign of weakness; It's a sign that we've become like the russians, the iranians, and all the other boogie men we've bomed the hell out of. So even when it would be good and proper for us to adopt socialist social policies, we don't... we'd rather go on maintaining the notion that We're Number One. America is on a path of self-destruction because it simply can't acknowledge, individually or collectively, that we need help and we need to work together. Our problems are world problems too -- but until that fact ingrains itself into our culture, it's pointless to expect change. America, as an idea and as a culture, would rather die than admit defeat.

      Just like the British did at the height of their empire. It's a phase we'll outgrow eventually, just like you guys did. But it won't happen quickly, or easily, or gracefully.

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    10. Re:Just socialise the damn thing already by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and so how about people who do not want their government to handle their medical care, fuck their rights, yes?

    11. Re:Just socialise the damn thing already by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      EMTALA, Medicare, Medicaid and Monopoly Protections for Providers ensure Doctors treat everyone irregardless of ability to pay, and cost-shift to the people most capable of paying it. Cost shifting is, by definition, Socialism.

      The result of that is a 7-9% increase in cost, year over year, and has been so since the 80's.

      Please note; A Percentage Year over Year is an exponential function; this pattern will, with absolute certainty, bankrupt the Federal Government and destroy the country.

      That is the reason everyone is terrified of the word "Socialism". We know it doesn't work, and we have the math to prove it. Obama Care with it's $2,000 per year "Behavior Tax" for those lacking insurance is an invitation to a Tax Rebellion and it's requirements insurers take everyone irregardless of their current medical condition and charge them a reasonable price is a 100% certain preamble to to collapse the medical systems payment structure; everyone will buy insurance the moment they get sick.

      If we ended EMTALA, Ended Medicare and Medicaid, and Ended the monopoly protections, after a few years costs would return from the stratosphere to affordable. Gangsters could sell their rims to pay for their Wive's (Joined via a Shotgun Marriage) Child Birth. The cost of surgery would go down substantially; think $10k for a heart stint instead of 100.

      Of course, if you are stupid and didn't save money, buy inexpensive insurance, etc, then well. You sir deserve what's coming.

      That's Capitalism, though, and that, too, is a dirty, scary word invoking visions of robber-barons smoking humans like cigars, alive.

    12. Re:Just socialise the damn thing already by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You forgot to sign your post:

      Sincerely, Tea Partier who actually has never been anywhere near Canada and learned everything he "knows" from Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck

    13. Re:Just socialise the damn thing already by KalvinB · · Score: 1

      Socialized Medicine: Because if someone can't afford excellent care, everyone should have mediocre care.

      There's a reason people come to the US for medical treatments.

    14. Re:Just socialise the damn thing already by clarkkent09 · · Score: 1

      I guess we don't want the disaster like the British NHS inflicted on us by "well meaning" but clueless idiots.

      --
      Negative moral value of force outweighs the positive value of good intentions.
    15. Re:Just socialise the damn thing already by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      What is such insightful and well reasoned opinion doing in slashdot? You ma'am must be new here.

    16. Re:Just socialise the damn thing already by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      People come to lots of different countries for medical treatments. Don't delude yourself that USA is somehow special in this particular case.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    17. Re:Just socialise the damn thing already by girlintraining · · Score: 1

      What is such insightful and well reasoned opinion doing in slashdot? You ma'am must be new here.

      Sorry. It was the weekend, and I was bored. It won't happen again, honest officer Anonymous.

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    18. Re:Just socialise the damn thing already by csumpi · · Score: 1

      Before we do that (or you push that on us), you should look up the survival rate of any type of cancer in your country vs ours.

      Until your country gets anywhere near close to the US, thanks, but we'll keep what we have.

    19. Re:Just socialise the damn thing already by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

      nice post

      no, excellent post

      i wish there were some way to beam it into the brains of the feverish morons we have to share this country with

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    20. Re:Just socialise the damn thing already by ZeroMS · · Score: 1

      There's a reason people come to the US for medical treatments.

      You sure about that? Most people I know actually leave to other countries. Sometimes the flight + medical procedure in another coutnry is actually cheaper.

    21. Re:Just socialise the damn thing already by Ostracus · · Score: 1

      Some valid points, but we already have socialized medicine and have for decades. It's called Medicare/Medicaid and a large segment does understand. Just try taking away those two programs from seniors and the AARP will be down on any politician that tries.

      --
      Shai Schticks:"You don't make peace with friends, you make peace with enemies"
    22. Re:Just socialise the damn thing already by girlintraining · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Some valid points, but we already have socialized medicine and have for decades. It's called Medicare/Medicaid and a large segment does understand. Just try taking away those two programs from seniors and the AARP will be down on any politician that tries.

      True, but the same logic that prevents us from throwing 4 year olds in jail for life for stealing candy bars (something that can and has happened in California to adults) also prevents us from packing old people into railroad box cars and disappearing them; There's simply no way we can rationalize it. We can't tell them to just "get a job", because, well... they can't work. It's obvious they can't work. It simply can't be denied. So, for those people whom we can't rationalize away their healthcare... we grudgingly give it to them. But only enough to keep them alive, not enough to be comfortable. I know many elderly who are in substantial pain. You think they're cranky because they're old? Not exactly -- They're cranky because they have a long list of medical problems, and only a short list of medical answers.

      There was a guy recently who found out he had cancer -- a semi-famous member of the open source community (I disrecall the name). He was already disabled and on SSDI, but he made too much money to be on medicaid and wasn't old enough to get it automatically. He didn't have enough money for the surgery, which he needed in a matter of weeks. If he got it in time, his chance of survival with complete recovery was around 85%. Wait any longer, and he dies a slow, agonizing death. The government told him they wouldn't cover the surgery or any health care costs...

      At least, not until he was declared terminally ill. Then they would pay for health care. That, sir, is the system we have today. There is nothing dignified about it, and most countries would consider such treatment not only barbaric, but a violation of basic human rights. It's not socialist medicine if the only reason its offered at all is because the alternative would result in social chaos and unrest costing more than the service offered. It's barbarism.

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    23. Re:Just socialise the damn thing already by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      A BBC wouldn't work in the US. Since the founding of our nation, we've never truely had any non-biased national news. Be it from the printing press or broadcasted over the airwaves. Blame it on culture if you will. But here in America, the "media" is the official unofficial mouth piece of the Democratic Party. Only recently in modern history was there a pronounced hunger for a conservative POV that Fox News came along and filled the vacuum. You could say that Fox News is also the official unofficial mouth piece of the Republican party. But if you try and setup a national news network owned and operated by the Federal Government, I guarantee you that it would be the "official" mouth piece of the Democratic party.

      I've been reminded that there are two types of people in this world. Those who want to be involved in others lives and those whom do not. Reporting the news is simply not as fun as being a part of it. So there you go. That's where the bias comes into play.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    24. Re:Just socialise the damn thing already by cold+fjord · · Score: 2

      I'm afraid you've got things a bit wrong.

      It's also no small matter that the UK has the BBC. . . . The licensing fees you pay are amply repaid not just in terms of quality programming, but also unbiased programming.

      BBC chief Mark Thompson admits 'Left-wing bias'
      Mark Thompson: “There was massive left-wing bias at the BBC”

      That has been found more than once, by the way.

      Lastly, the UK was bombed into near-nothingness. The US never has been. The closest we've come to having to reassess economically was the Great Depression. Because we never had to rebuild from scratch, we never learned the social lessons that an experience like that offers --

      19 - Ruins of Charleston, 10 - Damaged Atlanta, 7 - Burned-out Richmond

      Besieged, bombarded and blocked from commerce, Charleston suffered greatly in the war. Sidney Andrews, a Northern reporter in Charleston at war’s end described it as “a city of desolation, of vacant homes, of widowed women, of deserted warehouses, of weed wild gardens ... of miles of grass grown streets.” - - The Destruction of Charleston in the Civil War

      Ruins seen from the State Capitol - Columbia, SC, 1865

      It's not socialism per-se that we're afraid of -- it's the idea that we aren't in control of our own fate. That we aren't individuals, but actually part of something more than ourselves, . . . .

      Religion takes a back seat in Western Europe
      The Europe Syndrome and the Challenge to American Exceptionalism

      For us, socialism is a sign of weakness;

      Soviet internationalist socialist "weakness" on parade
      Chinese internationalist socialist "weakness" on parade
      North Korean internationalist socialist "weakness" on parade
      Polish internationalist socialist "weakness" on parade
      Czeck internationalist socialist "weakness" on parade
      German internationalist socialist "weakness" on parade (Same tailor as below?)
      German Nationalist Socialist "weakness" on parade (Same tailor as above?)

      The Big Lies of the Soviet Union

      I was recently re-reading John Gross’s marvelously entertaining Oxford Book of Parodies when I came across a 1938 passage from George Orwell that attempts to explain the strangeness of

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    25. Re:Just socialise the damn thing already by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I was reading an article where it stated that socialised medicine would cost *less*.."

      It's not only that it "would" - it *does*. Just look at the cost of healtcare elsewhere in the world.

    26. Re:Just socialise the damn thing already by cold+fjord · · Score: 1
      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    27. Re:Just socialise the damn thing already by ryzvonusef · · Score: 1

      You Yanks fear the word "socialist" so much you spend far more to get rid of it!

      You're parroting a commonly held misconception about how politics in the United States works. Firstly, your elected representatives come from more than two parties; Your voters have a wider diversity of candidates to choose from, and are less apt to vote along party lines. This also spreads out the concentration of money paid to your elected representatives by private interests. Put more simply, it's harder to buy legislation in your country. As well, the disparity between the rich and poor is far less pronounced. This results in your legislators being more likely to represent the actual will of the people, rather than the apparent or manufactured will.

      WOW! I didn't know Pakistan was *this* awesome! YAY! I fucking love my country! Let's burn some embassies in pride :p

      Ah, Sorry for the snark, it just that your first paragraph made me chock on my tea (oh, and you owe me a keyboard )

      BTW, if you assumed me to be a Britisher due to my qualification, (a fair mistake) allow to inform you that that shit is everywhere. Heck I made a map of all the countries with an ACCA exam centre (I am a bored, bored soul) : http://i45.tinypic.com/1zd8c5k.jpg

      I agree with your points, and I think a clarification is in order on my part.

      Look, as an objective outsider, I was merely looking at merits of this problem, I do not have any affiliation with either side of the debate.

      I understand the merits of this case: the US values *time* factor in the health equation far more than the *cost* factor; American would rather pay A LOT(even take out a loan) to get *prompt* healthcare, rather than pay nothing , or a little...and die in the queue.

      But that doesn't mean that a certain mid point *can't* be reached. A lot of the so called socialist countries aren't all that socialised when it comes to medicine (not every country is a Nordic, after all).

      Look at the *socialised* medicine in, say, Netherlands and Germany, for example. To sum it up *broadly*, you still pay, just that the state helps out a bit, either subsidising the amount, or spreading it over time, mandatory insurance, or some other trick. All it does it is help you when you are down, so you can worry about payment at a more opportune time, when you are healthy.

      However, basically, the problem is that that mid-point comes under the definition of "socialism" and since socialism is evil... you do everything in your power to stay away from that balance point.

      Basically, Americans are paying for the *privilege* of *not* having socialised medicine, and paying for it through the nose. Take *Obamacare* for example; the name itself is a reminder of the fact, that, never mind the merits of this act, Americans were actually *insulted* by the idea!

      I feel this comic might sum it up: http://satwcomic.com/the-end-of-america

      Hence my recommendation; if you *are* going to provide a social service, don't do a half-arsed job of it. Just do the damn thing already, and and do it good. Once you get over the phobia of socialism, then you can get to providing a service that's both competitive *and* cost-effective.

      (And you are socialist anyway, from my POV, after all, you provide unemployment benefits of some sort, that's already a *evil* socialist aspect!)

      --
      I am an ACCA student. Got a query on Accountancy/Finance? Maybe I can help!
    28. Re:Just socialise the damn thing already by multipartmixed · · Score: 1

      Your observations with respect to the BBC are very astute. In Canada, Prime Minister Stephen Hilter has been actively gutting the CBC (starving it for resources) because unbiased news is absolutely his number one enemy. Several times during his reign he has to scrap legislation because the voters found out what he was up to. Luckily for him, it not longer matters, he has a majority of the house now; I am fairly certain that by the time he is forced to call another election that he will have figured out how to remove the right to vote for those who would oppose him.

      --

      Do daemons dream of electric sleep()?
    29. Re:Just socialise the damn thing already by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      Your voters have a wider diversity of candidates to choose from...

      Strange, I see a variety of candidates on the American ballots to choose from...

      ...and are less apt to vote along party lines.

      To me, voting along party lines to be part of the herd does indicate a certain lack of desire to remove yourself from your poverty. Though I do understand the psychology behind it. Poverty is not just something that just 'falls on your head'. It takes a concerted effort and no small amount of time to steal enough to create an impoverished society.

      Our problem has nothing to do with 'socialism' vs 'capitalism'. It can be boiled down to the inherent corruption and concentration of power. Everybody wants it. And they'll kill to get it. Even the 'good citizen' will send out their armies and navies to raid that booty, and then claim 'innocence' of any wrongdoing. Sorry, they're not. Children are innocent. adults, no way.

      The closest we've come to having to reassess economically was the Great Depression.

      I would contend that the civil war was much more devastating economically and otherwise, by a long shot.

      One of the main obligations of any collective is to look after the well being of its individuals... all of them. Only then should we expect the individual to respond in kind. There is nothing wrong with dissolving a collective that fails in that obligation. And a government needs to act as a coordinator of individuals, not as dictator over them. It needs to ensure that power of any kind is not unduly concentrated in any particular individual or group. But, we all still act on animal instinct, muzzling up to the alpha male with the fanciest suit and shiniest car hoping some will rub off, so the back and forth for domination will continue indefinitely. All this political/religious BS is just a tool of the trade. And I really would prefer that people who enable all of this crap stop playing the victim card. Like every other perverse desire and addiction, the very first step to recovery is recognizing that they have a problem, and it's in the mirror.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    30. Re:Just socialise the damn thing already by zioncat · · Score: 1

      Stop wasting her time with facts, she's already made up her mind on those subjects.

    31. Re:Just socialise the damn thing already by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      I think you are quite right. Thanks for sharing your wisdom. I'll go out on a limb and say, enjoy:

      Meshugga Beach Party - Shalom Alechem
      Hava Nagila Texas Style

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    32. Re:Just socialise the damn thing already by tjonnyc999 · · Score: 1

      However, because our rulers have long ago given up any pretense of actually giving a damn about what their subjects want, they've passed ObamaCare in the middle of the night, using unprecedented trickery and loopholes, despite 70% of the country being against it.

      Oh, and meanwhile the UK government is quietly changing their healthcare system back into PRIVATE ownership, little by little, to avoid an uproar. I guess they got tired of hearing stories like these: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1253438/Mid-Staffordshire-NHS-hospital-routinely-neglected-patients.html?ITO=1490

      But, even when the Socialist model, the inspiration for ObamaCare, is admitted to be a failure and steps are taken to return the healthcare system into private hands, nobody on this side of the pond gives a damn.

      "In Britain, the government itself runs the hospitals and employs the doctors. We’ve all heard scare stories about how that works in practice; these stories are false. " - Paul Krugman, http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/17/opinion/17krugman.html?_r=0

      Yeah, the blood-soaked sheets, the discarded needles, and the 3-day-old corpses in hallways are just... figments of someone's imagination, right, Dr. Krugman?

      Well-meaning idiots, or cryptomarxists willing to ignore any human suffering for the advancement of an agenda? You decide.

    33. Re:Just socialise the damn thing already by Magius_AR · · Score: 1

      Hence my recommendation; if you *are* going to provide a social service, don't do a half-arsed job of it. Just do the damn thing already, and and do it good. Once you get over the phobia of socialism, then you can get to providing a service that's both competitive *and* cost-effective.

      I think you're missing the point. A large reason healthcare costs are so damn high in America are because we have a very unhealthy culture prone to super-sizing Big Macs without worrying about the massive heart disease bills to come 20 years down the road (heart disease, btw, is one of the largest drivers of healthcare expenses in this country). That of course leads to one of two things:

      1) Nanny state, ala this:http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/13/health/new-york-soda-ban/index.html

      or

      2) Let people do whatever they want and then eat the cost

      Both Republicans and _some_ Democrats are opposed to #1. Republicans are opposed to #2, whereas Democrats seem to not care about picking up the bill of a bunch of irresponsible people. Though funny enough, they rage holy hell about picking up the tab of the irresponsible banks during the bailout -- go figure.

    34. Re:Just socialise the damn thing already by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      I live in a place with universal health care. I've had two MRIs since moving here, one was critical, and was same day. The other was a follow-up and was 2 months after the appointment, and a day or two would have had no impact. The demand of US patients that they be given the test on the same day as someone thinks it might have some future value seems to be the malfunction, and not the system.

      In the US with private health care, I had knee surgery, and I had to wait 3 months for it. The first doctor I called had a 6+ month waiting list, which I had though would be less, given a recent DUI conviction. But hey, you take what you can get with private medicine.

      And as for waiting to see a doctor, I've never had to wait more than 4 hours from deciding to see a doctor before being in front of an actual MD (as opposed to a majority of US clinics where there is rarely a doctor on duty and you get to see a nurse or PA only). Socialized medicine is cheaper and more effective, and the only people in the US that complain are complaining about a few edge cases of bad, comparing it to a few edge cases in the US of good, the averages, or the edge-good (or edge-bad) cases all favor socialized medicine.

      That, and you can tell the insane people because it's always "socialized" medicine, and never "universal care" or such.

  10. 'Tis a shame... by QuietLagoon · · Score: 1

    ... that there are always some who will push the legal and ethical envelope in order to make a larger profit. Such is the way of Capitalism, it appears.

    1. Re:'Tis a shame... by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      Why capitalism? Every human system ever devised is rife with corruption.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    2. Re:'Tis a shame... by TheSync · · Score: 1

      there are always some who will push the legal and ethical envelope in order to make a larger profit. Such is the way of Capitalism, it appears

      Isn't is more the way of Socialism, as these doctors are billing the government?

      If they were actually billing the patients, the patients would probably say "screw you, why am I paying you twice for the same procedure? See you in court!"

    3. Re:'Tis a shame... by frosty_tsm · · Score: 1

      Why capitalism? Every human system ever devised is rife with corruption.

      Exactly, look at how corrupt communism was.

  11. i apologize world, it is embarassing by circletimessquare · · Score: 3, Insightful

    universal healthcare will result in longer lives and less healthcare spending in the usa. just like every other goddamn country with it

    but, much like gun control, there is a certain feverish moron in my country that will never listen to reason on the subject, and he enabled by special interest groups in washington: the NRA and the healthcare insurers

    maybe the feverish morons will shoot themselves and die waiting in the emergency room

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:i apologize world, it is embarassing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Wow, way to bring gun control into this.

    2. Re:i apologize world, it is embarassing by circletimessquare · · Score: 1, Troll

      but it's exactly the same issue: all sense and reason, and the track record of all other western industrialized nations, show you want:

      1. universal healthcare to live longer and spend less
      2. tighter controls on guns for far lower senseless death rates

      so why not in the usa? because of a qausireligious group of faith-based feverish morons who believe certain ignorant things, and their minds will never see the light of day on the obvious

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    3. Re:i apologize world, it is embarassing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The issue of gun control is different: the divide in opinion in America (or rest of world) is dominated by the difference in urban and rural life, c.q. population density. There is simply no one "reasonable" standpoint on this issue.

      The healthcare issue is totally political on the other hand. And if Americans opt for some kind of healthcare provided by the government, which both parties do (but not all Americans), then indeed only universal coverage can be qualified as "reasonable".

      But you can apologize for the level of your public debates/propaganda wars in America, those are quite emberrassing

    4. Re:i apologize world, it is embarassing by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Dude, seriously, if you want Gun control then change the fucking constitution. Until then, stop saying I do not have a right that is imbedded in the constitution simply because you don't like it and want to read into it things that never existed. If you are allowed to succeed, then your right to free speech, your right to be secure in your papers, person, and effect from unwarranted searches, your right to a fair trial without unusual and or cruel punishment, your right to retain the rights other citizens hold, and all that are meaningless drivel waiting on the next guy to force alternative meanings into it by cracked out readings or outright disregarding the intent as well as obvious language of the Constitution.

      If that makes me a qausireligious group of faith-based feverish morons who believe certain ignorant things, then come pry my bible from my cold dead hands- if you can. Otherwise fuck off and do it right else risk screwing everything else up. Your sense of righteousness has no fucking legal standing in the US so just because you think a certain way does not mean other rights will not be taken from you because you agree with the right. The US constitution is what bars the government from doing things, not your imaginary moral guard.

    5. Re:i apologize world, it is embarassing by Q-Hack! · · Score: 1

      universal healthcare will result in longer lives and less healthcare spending in the usa. just like every other goddamn country with it

      but, much like gun control, there is a certain feverish moron in my country that will never listen to reason on the subject, and he enabled by special interest groups in washington: the NRA and the healthcare insurers

      maybe the feverish morons will shoot themselves and die waiting in the emergency room

      Actually wether or not we have universal healthcare or free market health care really doesn't change life expectancy. On the other hand, how much junk food a country eats, does. Our problem is that we have neither universal healthcare or the free market. Instead we have some bastardization of the two. Personally I think we need to bring back a pure free market. The only regulation from the government needs to be that the doctor has a medical license from an accredited school. After that, let the insurance companies and doctors do what they do and it will become cheaper for all.

      --
      Some days I get the sinking feeling Orwell was an optimist.
    6. Re:i apologize world, it is embarassing by circletimessquare · · Score: 2, Informative

      i don't have to change the constitution. what the constitution says about gun ownership has nothing to with what certain morons believe it justifies

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    7. Re:i apologize world, it is embarassing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think the Supreme Court's interpretation of the Second Amendment was quite clear. If that offends you or the people you're labeling as morons, I can't say I particularly care.

    8. Re:i apologize world, it is embarassing by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

      i agree

      a rural dweller should have a shotgun for security

      if only there were some way to change gun laws based on population density

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    9. Re:i apologize world, it is embarassing by circletimessquare · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      good, then you won't mind when a new supreme court has a new interpretation

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    10. Re:i apologize world, it is embarassing by sjames · · Score: 2

      Actually, it's an entirely different thing. The gun market is operating well and shows inflation comparable to the total inflation rate. Few people actually NEED a gun, but those who do (and most who just want one) can afford it.

      In contrast, everybody needs healthcare from time to time but many can't afford it at all and the rest are forced to spend an increasing percentage of their total income on it. Healthcare costs have inflated at several times the rate of general inflation for decades now.

    11. Re:i apologize world, it is embarassing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Funny, what I had heard was that gun control caused a lower rate of murders using guns, however, the rise in murders using knives rose to the point of basically making it a wash.

    12. Re:i apologize world, it is embarassing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      By not trying to impose it centrally, but leave it up to the states or more local government? Like what's happening defacto. Reality exerts itself, issue resolved, details left.

    13. Re:i apologize world, it is embarassing by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

      You heard wrong, propagandized moron

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    14. Re:i apologize world, it is embarassing by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      This is what I love about self appointed intellectuals who think they have all the answers and know what's good for all us poor unwashed masses out here. The way they can take a simple sentence written in plain English and reinterpret it to mean whatever they feel it should have said to start with. Returning to the topic, I agree the current system is so totally screwed that even something as fucked as socialized medicine would be better than the cluster fuck we currently enjoy. I think the entire idea behind Obamacare was to so fubar the entire American Healthcare Sytem that the slate would have to be wiped clean and started over from scratch. A brilliant and effective idea I have to admit. Something drastic will have to be done and I'm sure it'll be socialized medicine. Welcome to Europe where things are so wonderful (at least you seem to think so).

    15. Re:i apologize world, it is embarassing by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      Soon the bureaucrats will be in total control then things will get better. The same people that run the post office are on the way to help.

    16. Re:i apologize world, it is embarassing by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      Heh, you're just as dumb about the 2nd Amendment as you are about the 1st. Well, at least you're consistent. Nothing worse than lumpy Cream of Wheat.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    17. Re:i apologize world, it is embarassing by sjames · · Score: 1

      That sounds like a good thing. The post office provides reasonable service at an affordable rate to everyone who needs it.

    18. Re:i apologize world, it is embarassing by amRadioHed · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Why do you maintain that socialized medicine is a bad thing when all the evidence suggests that the opposite is true? Are you equally critical of America's use of socialized police and fire departments?

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
    19. Re:i apologize world, it is embarassing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      2. tighter controls on guns for far lower senseless death rates

      What you want is safety at the expense of freedom. Ban/restrict all guns because certain people abuse them. You're no different than a TSA/Patriot Act supporter (terrorists or not). You're so scared of having any casualties in this world filled with billions of humans that you would readily give up other people's freedom so that you and certain other people can feel safe.

      Guns simply aren't catastrophically powerful enough to limit (like a nuke, for instance), and I say this as someone who doesn't even own one.

    20. Re:i apologize world, it is embarassing by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      universal healthcare will result in longer lives and less healthcare spending in the usa.

      I'm going to call you an idiot if you think longevity is a good measurement for the quality of healthcare in a country.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    21. Re:i apologize world, it is embarassing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did a gun jump out of your closet and scare you while you were little or something?

    22. Re:i apologize world, it is embarassing by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      If all it takes is a new supreme court to ignore all the references the current supreme court used in defining the second amendment so they can reinterpret things instead of amending the constitution, then wait until one takes your right to privacy, free speech, fair trial and everything else from you. I mean you are ok with the court redefining things to suit their current ideology right?

    23. Re:i apologize world, it is embarassing by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      hehe, read the news much?

    24. Re:i apologize world, it is embarassing by sjames · · Score: 1

      I read something about how people think not delivering the junk mail on Saturday will mean the end of all life on Earth, but nothing substantial.

    25. Re:i apologize world, it is embarassing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exhibit A: ---^

      Great Job Slashdot! You don't need to try to convince your opposition, you just have to reinforce their fears!

    26. Re:i apologize world, it is embarassing by ZeroMS · · Score: 2

      There is a difference between banning and restricting. Banning means no one will have a gun (except criminals). Restricting means that most gun owners will not be mentally unstable individuals prone to shootings. Note the lack of shootings that occur in europe vs usa.

    27. Re:i apologize world, it is embarassing by codepunk · · Score: 1

      1. Not guaranteed by the US constitution.
      2. Is guaranteed by the US constitution.

      Simple really.

      --


      Got Code?
    28. Re:i apologize world, it is embarassing by jamstar7 · · Score: 1

      Uh, the Post Office was privatised years ago. The Feds just pay for mail contracts and into the postal workers' retirement/medical funds.

      --
      Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
    29. Re:i apologize world, it is embarassing by betterprimate · · Score: 1

      Simply stating "gun control" is too sweeping. As you may have noticed in the comments that followed yours, it's a heated debate without any stated factual basis.

      I don't doubt that you have a point, but please be more specific. Else you will get a mirrored and equally passionate reaction.

      One thing is clear, violent crime rates are higher in cities that have lax gun regulations and registration. Even further, the cities that allow concealed weapons have the highest violent crime rates per capita (e.g. St. Louis).

      Now, back to the TFS, I suppose.

    30. Re:i apologize world, it is embarassing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Drug out and *SHOT* by the same people that have the guns in the first place. "America" has guns. Fear them! Respect them. Above all, do NOT FUCK WITH THEM!!!

    31. Re:i apologize world, it is embarassing by AK+Marc · · Score: 1
      Arguing what "should" or "shouldn't" be based on the constitution is like arguing the weather in Baghdad because you want to know what to wear today (somewhere in the USA). It may be an argument about the weather, but it isn't relevant.

      The "trick" question for the "but it's in the Constitution" people is to say, "Oh, I didn't know you were for gay marriage."

      Then the discussion falls to "full faith and credit" doesn't apply to fags, but any discussion of the "right to bear arms" not applying to assault weapons means you are a liberal pinko communist.

      Your sense of righteousness has no fucking legal standing in the US

      He never claimed it did. I can believe your opinion on the matter is wrong. I can believe that guns should be outlawed. And no appeal to the legality of such now will even address those points. I note you aren't arguing that guns extend life expectancy or such. That means to me that you agree with his facts 100%, but the religious beliefs on guns you hold make you disagree with his conclusion, despite the fact you've presented nothing that contradicts anything he's said.

  12. Be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Forgive my AC status, but for obvious reasons I can't divulge too many details. I was a contractor for a state government to facilitate writing an EHR system to integrate various state repositories for the purposes of the grants relevant to this story.

    Of course this is going to cost more up front. We had to bring online hundreds of medical facilities who were operating with paper only with processes who's roots go back to the 1950s. The purpose of the grants was to MITIGATE the costs, not cover them completely.

    The fact is that in the long run this will save money and is well worth the increase now. That increase would have been larger for every year longer we waited to bring some of these places into the modern era.

  13. Not necessarily fraud by Cipster · · Score: 5, Informative

    Physician here. Medicare/Medicaid is tied to really arcane and often inane rules. You must document X of this and Y of that and word it in a specific way to get paid. What you actually do for the patient does not always matter but the way you document it makes a big difference. EMR has made it easier to conform to the rules and makes sure you write notes that can be easily billed for. It has simplified documenting for things that are tedious to do on paper (like review of systems, and counseling).

    1. Re:Not necessarily fraud by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They are not archaic or inane rules. They are intentionally vague to allow enough room to argue when needed, just like the tax system, and just like the legal system. EMR s do not make it easier to follow the rules, it just changes them, like spreadsheets and turbo tax did for taxes. Still enough room to claim fraud and abuse if they are paying out too much. After all, you can't control people if our make the rules too clear.

  14. Fraud. by Bysshe · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Doesn't sound like electronic records is the problem. Fraud seems to be the problem.

    --
    Read what I mean, not what I wrote.
    1. Re:Fraud. by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Well, sort-of. Legally it probably isn't fraud.

      In the past you might have been lucky to have a REALLY good secretary who could file those claims just perfectly so that you got the highest possible reimbursement for what was done. If the paperwork wasn't completely in order you'd get denied $10 here or there, and chances are it wasn't worth arguing.

      Now with computers you can write software and EVERYBODY can have the best secretary on the planet. If a doctor calls up the EMR vendor and says they keep getting denied $10 on their claims they don't have to do anything else, and pretty soon that doctor and every other doctor in the country gets a software update that nets them an extra $10 per claim or whatever.

      The problem was that the system was balanced so that doctors still made a decent income despite being denied $10 here and there. So, now they are making a lot more money, and it isn't because care has really improved.

    2. Re:Fraud. by Bysshe · · Score: 1

      Just located this article, starts sounds more and more like fraud to me

      Upcoding

      --
      Read what I mean, not what I wrote.
    3. Re:Fraud. by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      There is probably some truth to this.

      If a guy comes in with an earache and needs antibiotics that is probably a 15 minute office visit, and reimbursed cheaply.

      If a guy comes in for his quarterly visit and he is a diabetic and has had heart surgery, then it is probably worth spending more so that the doctor can take an hour to make sure everything is being taken care of to avoid more costly problems later. However, there is nothing to stop the doctor from charging insurance for the hour, but wrapping the whole thing up in 30 minutes.

  15. So the fraud is now exposed... by Slyswede · · Score: 4, Interesting

    My impression is that the US health care system has been doing this for as long as it has existed. Having digital records should be a great help to the insurance companies to make it easier to track down fraudulent health care providers.

    Since I live in Sweden I don't usually have a problem with health care bills, but once during a vacation to the US I had to visit a hospital due to severe stomach pain. Four hours and a trip through the CT machine later I was released with a prescription for some pills. Six months later (back home in Sweden) a bill for $14000 arrives...

    When I brought this to my insurance company and explained that the examination I went through couldn't possibly have cost that much they just shrugged and said "yeah, they always try this when dealing with foreign insurance companies". A few weeks later they had everything settled at just under $3000.

    So what's the point of this story? If a system is open to exploitation you need someone to monitor it. Monitoring is easier with good records of what's been going on.

    1. Re:So the fraud is now exposed... by TemperedAlchemist · · Score: 1

      B-but what about all the job creators! :(

    2. Re:So the fraud is now exposed... by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 1

      An electronic record system would have allowed automatic sanity checks that would have prevented an incident I know about.

      The patient's daughter was a nurse, and reviewed an itemized bill. The daughter challenged one of the items. The billing department patronizingly reassured her that it was correct. The item was a prostate exam for her mother.

    3. Re:So the fraud is now exposed... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      The current American system isn't so much open to exploitation as it is designed to punish those without insurance. The insurance lobby has made it illegal to bill an uninsured patient a price different from what they would charge an insurance company. This sounds fair enough on paper, after all its not exactly fair to charge an insurance company $14000 and then go and charge $3000 dollars to a patient without insurance for the same procedure. After all, that drives the prices for insurance up for everybody.

      The reality, as you found out, is that the person without insurance will be billed $14000 and the insurance company will only be billed for $3000. The medical provider starts high and then billable costs are negotiated with each individual plan. So each plan will be paying whatever low price they negotiated and contracted the provider to, while those without insurance are stuck with the extreme highball price. Charging the uninsured patient anything else would be insurance fraud. And that's one of the dirty little secrets of the current American system.

      I work in pharmacy, and as Cipster said here, Medicare has a very complicated system where if you forget to dot even one i, you will not get paid. We primarily only bill Medicare for diabetes testing supplies. Though we've always only billed them electronically, we can get a paid claim at the time a patient gets their $200 wholesale worth of testing supplies, and then Medicare decides arbitrarily they aren't going to pay for it 6 months later. We can appeal, but we're burdened with getting all chart notes from the prescriber on the patient from 6 months out to the date the patient picked up their supplies, a dated certificate proving the patient has been properly trained how to use their meter, a form signed by the patient that they ordered the strips and was nearly out when we filled the prescription, a copy of their testing logs from 6 months out to date of pick up, and now the date on the pick up signature has to match the date the presciption was filled. So Medicare patients can no longer call the prescription in to be filled and come in two days or a week later to pick it up. We can't get the prescription ready until they are there to pick it up. All this has to be faxed to them within 30 days, and if anything isn't perfect, we are out the $200.

      From that experience, I believe Cipster's assessment is correct. Medicare arbitrarily decides not to pay a claim and make it very difficult to have a successful appeal in the hopes of not having to pay out. The new electronic system available to providers makes sure all asinine documentation is obtained and available to retrieve at time of service, leading to more accurate billing and successful appeals, meaning Medicare has a much lower success rate in claim denials.

    4. Re:So the fraud is now exposed... by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      They are trying to take over the presidency and both houses (but losing all of it). The real issue is, when can we get those ppl to start creating jobs in America, rather than in China who continues to line their pockets.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    5. Re:So the fraud is now exposed... by tjonnyc999 · · Score: 1

      Not surprising, for a system that allows treatment for endometriosis on a MALE patient...

    6. Re:So the fraud is now exposed... by tjonnyc999 · · Score: 1

      See, you're thinking like a sane human being who's concerned about making the most efficient system possible.

      You're not thinking like a medical billing company with friends in Washington, who's salivating at all the extra business they would get with these new regulations. You're not thinking like one of the many professional Medicare/Medicaid scammers, for whom a rising complexity means more loopholes to be exploited. You're not thinking like an IRS official who's drooling over the prospect of getting several hundred or thousand of new agents under his control, and most likely a promotion commensurate with this new increase in responsibilities.

      No one is interested in making a lean, efficient system that has no loopholes and enforces honesty.

      "If honesty were suddenly introduced into American life, the whole system would collapse! No one would know what to do!" - George Carlin

  16. Greed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So hospitals got greedy and it's somehow Obama's fault uh...

    1. Re:Greed by Virtucon · · Score: 1

      It's Obama's fault for oversimplification of the problem and with his Democratic cohorts, Pelosi, Reid et al. for doing a lot of backroom deals to push bad legislation through. Do we all want affordable health care? Yes! Do we want to be able to make sure that we can get care for pre-existing conditions? Yes! Do we want 16000 new IRS agents enforcing the insurance mandate? No.

      Ask yourself why an industry like the health care industry has seen increases in costs much faster than inflation? Sure, the number of uninsured has risen but also some of these deals that were made allow the drug companies and others to not be challenged in terms of their costs. They will continue to rake in record profits and are allowed monopolies in this country that they shouldn't have. You think software patents are bad? How about the prohibition of importing drugs from say India? You have a licensed monopoly and they will rape you for every dollar.

      Electronic Record keeping isn't bad, it's bad when you have fraud already and you don't work on closing that out before you give crooks another way to steal from us all.

      Also, despite the "grand legislation" there are more uninsured as of 2011 then there were back in 2008 when they started tracking it.

      Almost 18% of GDP is spent on healthcare in this country now and in comparison to other developed nations we spend more than our peers. Germany spends 10% of their GDP on Healthcare with 22% coming from private spending, meaning insurers and the government pay out 78%. In the US, 17.9% of GDP is spent on healthcare with 47% coming from private spending. It's an industry out of control and the whole Obamacare legislation won't fix it.

      So, I don't just blame Obama, I blame the Democrats and the Republicans, in fact all of these idiots in DC and the statehouses who have allowed this to happen to us. I'll be retiring in 20 years, probably into a cardboard box. Why? Because I'll get free health care and I won't have to pay any taxes.

      --
      Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
    2. Re:Greed by fnj · · Score: 1

      Yours is an on objective and thoughtful comment. I would just like to add some more which I don't think is well recognized.

      The individual mandate idea originated with Republicans and conservative think tanks. Hilary Clinton took up the idea, but Candidate Obama did not favor it, and had some sensible and insightful things to say about it (see link). Somehow the idea found its way into the healthcare bill, which then went on to be adopted without a single Republican vote. Yet Republicans who favored their own mandate-including bills earlier criticized the mandate when it was part of a Democrat bill (same link again). Anyone could be forgiven for being completely bewildered and whipsawed on this issue.

      Anybody who thinks the facts given on the page linked are mistaken, please make your case. At this point, I don't have any axe to grind on this issue. Some of the people I respected on this issue have revealed themselves over time to be hypocrites, and I am wide open on this subject.

    3. Re:Greed by Magius_AR · · Score: 1

      The individual mandate idea originated with Republicans and conservative think tanks. Hilary Clinton took up the idea, but Candidate Obama did not favor it, and had some sensible and insightful things to say about it (see link). Somehow the idea found its way into the healthcare bill, which then went on to be adopted without a single Republican vote. Yet Republicans who favored their own mandate-including bills earlier criticized the mandate when it was part of a Democrat bill (same link again). Anyone could be forgiven for being completely bewildered and whipsawed on this issue. Anybody who thinks the facts given on the page linked are mistaken, please make your case. At this point, I don't have any axe to grind on this issue. Some of the people I respected on this issue have revealed themselves over time to be hypocrites, and I am wide open on this subject.

      Challenge accepted!

      I've seen this widely stated, including by Politfiact (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/apr/01/barack-obama/obama-says-heritage-foundation-source-health-excha/), but never understood why people are claiming equivalency. Like Robert Moffit stated, ""the Obama health-care law 'builds' on the Heritage health reform model only in the sense that, say, a double-quarter-pounder with cheese 'builds' on the idea of a garden salad. Both have lettuce and tomato and may be called food, but the similarities end there."

      Keep in mind that PPACA was a thousand page bill and not all thousand pages discussed exchanges. Keep in mind also that the Heritage implementation called for statewide exchanges, not nationwide as PPACA implements. It's another massive difference between the two. And frankly, that alone is more than enough for me to label them "not remotely similar" (it'd be like comparing the local transportation department to the Department of Transportation).

      If I had to liken a comparison to this misunderstanding, it would be like taking a generic Democrat-favored idea, like "universal healthcare", and spinning it ideologically in your favor, like "universal healthcare for rich people and oil tycoons", and then claiming it's originally a Democrat idea and wondering why they won't vote for it.

  17. Health technology entrepreneur here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We started making health care BI apps two years ago, just when they instituted meaningful use and were starting the incentive program. Up until a few months ago, there was stellar interest from hospitals to purchase our technologies - but the MU incentive changed things dramatically.

    We were shoved under the rug and hospitals started adopting 1970s technology. (We are cutting edge on HTML5, MongoDB, iOS.) They are now adopting old brand names at a dramatic rate.

    The regulations agency, ONC, is also operating like a gang. They push quite meaningless regulations that are designed to be difficult to understand by everyone except those that are in bed with them (vendors such as Cerner, McKesson, Epic). Yet, they claim that they are "fueling innovation".

    This is nothing short of a multi-billion dollar government IT racket. Superior quality technology is not getting a chance because of it. Bad for the users, bad for the patients, bad for the doctors, and not fair to the tax payer.

    1. Re:Health technology entrepreneur here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (We are cutting edge on HTML5, MongoDB, iOS.)

      Please, for the safety of millions of patients everywhere, never use these on ANYTHING related to healthcare. You have no clue what you are talking about and the fact that you would want to base your healthcare systems on "cutting edge" (bleeding edge) technologies furthers that point.

      You are being shoved under the rug because hospitals want established companies with a track record of success and reliability. They don't want the "hot new thing" from some garage startup. They want a system built on PROVEN reliable technologies with a wide support base. Healthcare is no place for your little fad technology.

    2. Re:Health technology entrepreneur here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      HTML5, MongoDB, iOS.

      Superior quality technology

      Wow. Please stay away from anything mission-critical. Maybe you could find a nice niche writing fart apps for Android?

  18. Is this a lame attack on the current admin.... by RL78 · · Score: 2

    The story being a NYT article, I don't think you can cry spin on this one.

    1. Re:Is this a lame attack on the current admin.... by rsilvergun · · Score: 2

      I don't think that counts for much any more. Pretty much all mainstream and big media is conservative on Economics any more. Some are liberal on a few social issues (Gay Marriage, Abortion, etc), but on economics they don't stray too far from Supply Side Economics. I attribute this to the fact that the owners (Rupport Murdoch et al) are very conservative, and if you want to stay employed you don't tick off the boss man...

      That said, it's tough to say. But I think it's been pointed out that electronic billing gives the pencil pushers enough data to figure out where they could be billing but aren't. But in 2010 alone $4 billion was recovered. But was that due to better tracking, a strong willingness on the part of the current Administration to stop fraud, or blind dumb luck?

      --
      Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    2. Re:Is this a lame attack on the current admin.... by clarkkent09 · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      Pretty much all mainstream and big media is conservative on Economics any more.
       
      It may seem that way but only if your own views are slightly to the left of Lenin. The reality is that the mainstream media is still Keynesian, i.e. in favor of heavy government intervention. NYT still has the discredited loon Krugman as their economics expert for God's sake, how supply side is that? The only real pro-capitalism program that I know of is Stossel on Fox Business channel and that's hardly mainstream media.

      --
      Negative moral value of force outweighs the positive value of good intentions.
    3. Re:Is this a lame attack on the current admin.... by RL78 · · Score: 2

      Rupert Murdoch owns the New York Post, not the Times.

    4. Re:Is this a lame attack on the current admin.... by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      I think the Times used to worship President Obama but now they think he's far too conservative. They'd really like someone along the lines of Nancy Pelosi or Cynthia McKinney.

    5. Re:Is this a lame attack on the current admin.... by feedayeen · · Score: 1, Insightful

      You lose credibility when you call the largest television news network, owned by the largest media company, non-mainstream.

    6. Re:Is this a lame attack on the current admin.... by SomeKDEUser · · Score: 1

      Interesting... I cannot tell whether you are making a joke or not.

      In case you are not, you might want to stop drinking the kool-aid.

    7. Re:Is this a lame attack on the current admin.... by RL78 · · Score: 1

      I agree with that, but since Romney is the only alternative right now, they'll still with Obama.

    8. Re:Is this a lame attack on the current admin.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Informative

      If you are slightly to the left of Romney you mean. Only nazis are more right-wing that "rightist" americans and whole world is left of "leftist" americans. A more unbalanced people is hard to find, "free speech" my ass, you are all about propaganda you yourself can't even differentiate between lies and truth. Even hyperbolic statements about you americans are turning out to be true.

    9. Re:Is this a lame attack on the current admin.... by GlennC · · Score: 1

      But was that due to better tracking, a strong willingness on the part of the current Administration to stop fraud, or blind dumb luck?

      Yes.

      --
      Go on, citizen, stamp the vote card. R or D, your choice.
    10. Re:Is this a lame attack on the current admin.... by gandhi_2 · · Score: 0

      Really? You can't go 30 minutes on CNBC or MSNBC without being sold the class war.

      To take their side, you have to call "not giving something to group x" "taking something away from group x".

    11. Re:Is this a lame attack on the current admin.... by sumdumass · · Score: 2

      You lost all credibility when you can't tell the difference between a business news channel and the mainstream media outlets. Mainstream by default would not be limited to business news. Fox news would be mainstream, fox business channel would not be. It is a niche channel trying to focus on a portion of news like ESPN news is a niche market focusing on sports.

    12. Re:Is this a lame attack on the current admin.... by larry+bagina · · Score: 1

      Nah, he's just trying to prove your point.. Fox Business is so non-mainstream, he hasn't heard of it and assumed you meant Fox News.

      --
      Do you even lift?

      These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

    13. Re:Is this a lame attack on the current admin.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where's the paper that'd like someone along the lines of Trotsky or Lenin? I wish for this country to have a real Communist just once so right-wing idiots have to live their hyperbole.

    14. Re:Is this a lame attack on the current admin.... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      The problem is that the conservatives are in favor of heavy government intervention. They just lie about it. The majority of government subsidies are from Republicans (GM was bailed out by the Republicans, but with the timing of the election and budgets, Obama gets blamed for Bush's budget), which reminds me of another trick. Spending under Republicans is almost as bad as under Obama, and if a Democrat is in the Oval Office, spending is all the fault of the administration, and tax cuts are the hard work of the Republicans against the adminsitration. But if it's reversed, then it's all the Democrat's fault again.

    15. Re:Is this a lame attack on the current admin.... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      You are right. The defenders of free speech now are the ones looking for the right to defraud and mislead. Lies are the truth, if you repeat them enough that the people believe.

  19. Not everyone thinks EMRs are a good idea, by Adult+film+producer · · Score: 1

    Imagine that you are a cardiologist. You work at a large hospital in Oklahoma City. You are about to perform a heart catheterization on a patient. The âoesystem goes down.â What ? You mean that a computer system might fail? You have no medical records because they are digitalized on âoethe system.â You have no idea what this patientâ(TM)s history is or what it is they need or what you had planned to do for them. You ask the patient,â..do you mind telling me what it is that I see you for?â

    http://032a410.netsolhost.com/WordPress/?cat=6

    1. Re:Not everyone thinks EMRs are a good idea, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This can happen...I was actually witness to a four day downtime of the primary ADT system at a major facility..the health records manager at the time joked, "paper doesn't go down."

      But, this comes back to a question of proper engineering (which I admit, I rarely see)...for the most part, it is possible to create local caches of relevant records, and critical equipment are powered through specially designated outlets that are supplied with backup power...an additional UPS can provide an extra buffer...not to mention that downtime procedures should be in place.

      But...this all assumes that the system has been properly engineered...to be clear, when I say that I mean the product (I have seen some scary vendor behaviour), and the initial configuration as established on deployment (I have seen some ridiculously bad choices made here)...unfortunately, there are a great number of people (who's opinions are valued) who think that running an emergency department is no different from running a mcdonalds...and, for the most part, they aren't around to deal with the repercussions of their work.

    2. Re:Not everyone thinks EMRs are a good idea, by Revotron · · Score: 1

      All hospitals have downtime procedures if the electronic system were to fail. This includes everything from chart printouts to comprehensive failover systems. No amount of engineering and technology can prevent you from losing paper charts, yet you're still stuck in a very similar conundrum. Most system failures are a result of human error.

      Clearly the benefits of electronic systems outweigh the risk, just like owning a car. Sometimes your car might not start when you need it to if you fail to properly maintain it, and you'll have to walk to wherever you need to go, but does that mean you shouldn't own a car at all, and that you should ALWAYS walk?

    3. Re:Not everyone thinks EMRs are a good idea, by Revotron · · Score: 1

      "paper doesn't go down."

      A valid point, but paper also doesn't double-check your work and detect errors and inconsistencies. Working with EHR systems, I can tell you that a paper system has a lot more entry errors than an electronic system has failures.

    4. Re:Not everyone thinks EMRs are a good idea, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > four day downtime of the primary ADT system

      Ouch.

      Our company develops specific software for handling Therapy services. We built into the software fallback paths that make it possible to handle patients (at least already scheduled patients) when the ADT system is down.

      With what the other guy was saying, I favor very heavily massively redundant medical records systems in case something very big comes down.

  20. Why not both? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why does it have to be either/or? I don't mind having taxes support those who can't afford to pay. In fact, we're already doing that. Just expand Medicaid. Problem solved. The social safety net is there to solve problems that private industry won't solve. It may not be the best way to solve those problems, but it's the only way we've got.

    On the private side, what's lacking is real health insurance. I can purchase a $500k CSL auto policy for $1200/yr with $3k deductible for collision. Car insurance doesn't care who fixes your car. There are no "networks" or "copays for oil changes". We take better care of our cars than our people and....

    Fuck it. What you said. Just socialize it already. Hire some Swedes as consultants, give 'em free reign for a few years, and be done with it.

  21. World Bank data (2010) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    Sticking to wealthy countries (source):

    Country | % Health spending/GDP | % Public health spending/Total health spending
    USA 17.9 53.1
    Netherlands 11.9 79.2
    France 11.9 77.8
    Germany 11.6 77.1
    Switzerland 11.5 59.0
    Denmark 11.4 85.1
    Canada 11.4 70.5
    UK 9.6 83.9
    Sweden 9.6 81.1
    Japan 9.5 82.5
    Norway 9.5 83.9
    Finland 9.0 75.1

    I'm fairly certain that the total U.S. government spending per capita on health care is more than the UK spends per capita for its universal system.

  22. you're ignorant beyond belief by circletimessquare · · Score: 5, Insightful

    a free market in real life translates to "give as many expensive tests as we can get away with"

    healthcare isn't a MARKETPLACE. it is not driven by best price, because the buyer has no control to seek the cheapest service. no knowledge of medicine. no time when he is having a heart attack to shop around

    face reality: there are some issues in life, where, believe it or fucking not, market forces do not help, and make things worse

    i say this as a committed capitalist. capitalism works. but i'm not a looney tune frothing at the mouth ignorant free market fundamentalist who believes the magic unicorn and rainbows marketplace is a magic elixir that solves all problems. it doesn't

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:you're ignorant beyond belief by circletimessquare · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Please read the above, world. I have to share a country with blathering morons like this. Again, it is embarrassing, I apologize.

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    2. Re:you're ignorant beyond belief by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can quit any time you want, you still have the right to buy a gun in the good old US of A, do everybody a favor, blow your goddamn brains out.

    3. Re:you're ignorant beyond belief by lexsird · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I feel your pain. I read through this and can see talking point propaganda every step of the way. It baffles the imagination that such mindesets can exist in the modern information age. But wait, it will only get worse. Notice the use of the term "Marxist". It's a buzz word for them, it allows them to excuse their actions and thoughts towards those that don't agree with them. It's a mob mentality that wants to take a baseball bat to your head in a fit of rage.

      They have been fed hate filled nationalistic "religion" based propaganda by "hate radio" and Faux News for years now. This is carefully cultivated and well crafted propaganda that Goebbels would get an erection over. As this election draws nearer and the pressure builds exponentially in the days before and after it, this propaganda will come to fruition. Regurgitating the lies will not suffice and we will see violence from this ilk like this country has never seen. You can smell the madness between the lines even now.

      For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Weapons grade propaganda doesn't just vanish like smoke when the politicians and their puppet masters are done spewing it on the masses. There are minds steeped in it, poisoned with hate; there are consequences.

      --
      Take the Red Pill.
    4. Re:you're ignorant beyond belief by icebraining · · Score: 1

      If one wants governmental control over health care, then that person isn't a Marxist.

      The contradiction between the vocation and the good intentions of the administration on the one hand and the means and powers at its disposal on the other cannot be eliminated by the state, except by abolishing itself; for the state is based on this contradiction. It is based on the contradiction between public and private life, between universal and particular interests. For this reason, the state must confine itself to formal, negative activities, since the scope of its own power comes to an end at the very point where civil life and work begin. Indeed, when we consider the consequences arising from the asocial nature of civil life, of private property, of trade, of industry, of the mutual plundering that goes on between the various groups in civil life, it becomes clear that the law of nature governing the administration is impotence. For, the fragmentation, the depravity, and the slavery of civil society is the natural foundation of the modern state, just as the civil society of slavery was the natural foundation of the state in antiquity. The existence of the state is inseparable from the existence of slavery.

      -- Karl Marx

    5. Re:you're ignorant beyond belief by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      a free market in real life translates to "give as many expensive tests as we can get away with"

      Would a non-free-market solution provide protection to doctors who don't order the most expensive tests they can get away with? As it stands today, doctors who don't order every test imaginable are screwed if they miss something.

      On a personal level, you can turn down tests if you don't want to have them. I routinely ask my doctor whether he thinks a test is truly necessary or whether he ordered them to rule out a one-in-a-million syndrome. A good doctor will tell you when they're ordering something just to cover all the bases.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    6. Re:you're ignorant beyond belief by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

      i wouldn't really about mobs and revolution, i worry about the lone wackjob with the bomb, sniper gun, anthrax, or ricin. most of these wingnuts are free of effective action in their entire lives, on any point. but there's a lot of them, so you do encounter the occasional one who combines this complete WHARGARBBBL of mental content, and somehow, also effective commitment to action. those are the rare few oddballs. they are real, and they do do damage

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    7. Re:you're ignorant beyond belief by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

      the idea is not to have a system where the doctor gets paid more to run more tests. which is what we currently have

      pay the doctor the same whether he runs no tests or 100 tests and you will get the actual number of tests needed to diagnose a patient

      On a personal level, you can turn down tests if you don't want to have them.

      then you're fucking ignorant. are you a doctor? you honestly think this is valid advice to give lay people about their healthcare?

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    8. Re:you're ignorant beyond belief by jamstar7 · · Score: 3, Informative

      What gets me is everybody throwing the 'M-word' around who obviously have never read Marx. Socialism and Communism have as much in common with classical Marxism as my Cocker spaniel has with Congress. But, in the US, at least, if you wanna shut somebody up because their opinion isn't your opinion, point at him, scream 'MARXIST!!!' and it's job done.

      --
      Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
    9. Re:you're ignorant beyond belief by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      you honestly think this is valid advice to give lay people about their healthcare?

      Well, it is good advice a good part of the time based on most studies I've seen. The problem is that a lay person doesn't know whether their case falls into that category or not.

      I agree with your points, though I don't think it would completely solve test proliferation to merely pay the doctor the same whether they order the tests or not (it would be a good step though).

      I remember a doctor on NPR pointing out a case of a CT scan that a parent wanted for their fairly young kid, that he felt was unnecessary. The parent thought he was cost-cutting, but the doctor pointed out that the incentives were completely opposite - if he ordered the test he would be paid more, and would have a lower risk of lawsuits as well. However, the little kid would have an increased risk of cancer 50 years down the road and the evidence was that this was not worth the trade off. If he was wrong he'd have been sued, and if he made that judgment call 50 times chances are he would be sued eventually, and yet it still is the right call. Nobody sues a doctor for a CT scan that might have caused a cancer 40 years in the future, but everybody sues a doctor who misses a fractured bone.

    10. Re:you're ignorant beyond belief by scamper_22 · · Score: 1

      How in any God's name do you associate the free market with

      1) Government system that pays the bills
      2) Healthcare law that restricts who can perform services to a guild of physicians
      3) Heavily regulated insurance

      Alright, the current system isn't socialized.
      But it sure as hell isn't free-market.

      Like most things in the US, it finds a home in government funded/regulated/subsidized private delivery. That's the housing system, military industry, healthcare... There's other words for it... mostly along big lines like corporatism or fascism... But for god's sake man.

      How do you think the healthcare system in the United States has anything to do with a free-market?

    11. Re:you're ignorant beyond belief by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

      the USA has no experience with socialism, communism, or marxism. plenty of other countries do, and therefore properly understand what they mean. but in the usa, marxism, communism and socialism simply mean "boogey man", without rhyme or reason, applied as a smear word to someone who opposes you, if it doesn't support the strict notion that every man is a self-made island and we should all do our own surgery and build our roads and raise ourselves from infants

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    12. Re:you're ignorant beyond belief by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

      i don't think it is a free market. we already have universal healthcare: if you don't pay your bill, the state or the feds bail out the hospital from bankruptcy because we need the hospital

      we just pay for it in the most retarded way: rent seeking corporate parasites siphon off cash from the system and add nothing of value. so just remove them and put it all under the government

      but the idea that healthcare should be an actual free market place, is fucking insane. you do understand that, right?

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    13. Re:you're ignorant beyond belief by betterprimate · · Score: 1

      Yes, and an idiot who hasn't read Marx yet uses it as some derogatory insult.

      I'm sorry that we can have a sensible debate when every asshat defends his ignorance unabashed.

      You know what. I am not an economist, I know very little about political science. But I *do know* the GP has no fucking idea what Marx wrote or stood for. Just like he has no idea about Thomas Jefferson, Emerson, Madison, Smith, etc.

    14. Re:you're ignorant beyond belief by Bryansix · · Score: 1

      I think what you are saying has a point. There are a few points that people CAN shop around for though.
      1) How is the customer service?
      2) How is the selection of Doctor's and Hospitals?
      3) Will the insurer be pro-active?

      So I think we still need choice but outside of that, everything else needs to be somewhat locked down. The insurance companies should not be making the kind of profit that they do off of performing basically and administrative function. The demand in the market for healthcare is elastic meaning even as the price skyrockets, we still need it and will still pay for it. Because of this we do need regulation. Its just the way the "Health Care Affordability Act" went about the regulation was all wrong as well as sketchy since it happened behind closed doors.

    15. Re:you're ignorant beyond belief by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      pay the doctor the same whether he runs no tests or 100 tests and you will get the actual number of tests needed to diagnose a patient

      My wife's a doctor. She had almost no in-house testing equipment except for an x-ray machine, so she referred out any other tests. I don't expect you to believe this, but she didn't make a penny of those tests. There was zero profit motive for her; she just genuinely wanted to know the results of the tests. I know that's not the case for large practices with in-house laboratories or which own advanced imaging systems like MRIs or CT scanners, but your average family practice guy probably isn't seeing any money from prescribing tests from outside facilities.

      are you a doctor? you honestly think this is valid advice to give lay people about their healthcare?

      No, and yes. My specific advice is to talk it over with your doctor and come to a mutual conclusion. If you go in for bronchitis and he wants to order a chest x-ray, ask him if that's really important or if he's just trying to rule out some highly unlikely condition. If your mutual decision is that it's probably not that important, don't get it. I stand by that advice for a lay person.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    16. Re:you're ignorant beyond belief by fnj · · Score: 1

      the idea is not to have a system where the doctor gets paid more to run more tests. which is what we currently have

      pay the doctor the same whether he runs no tests or 100 tests and you will get the actual number of tests needed to diagnose a patient

      You see that a system that encourages and rewards performing unneeded tests is bad, yet you don't see anything wrong with a system that would encourage and reward skipping needed tests? Really?

    17. Re:you're ignorant beyond belief by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Irrelevant, the Marxism is in denying private property rights, which is imposition of the income related taxes, it's in denying the market in handling a business requirement, such as health care, denying ability of people to run a business for profit in order to provide health care.

    18. Re:you're ignorant beyond belief by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      ... just remove them and put it all under the government...

      No, don't remove them. Let them compete with a real universal care system. Don't go around closing off options. Create more of them, not less.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    19. Re:you're ignorant beyond belief by fustakrakich · · Score: 0

      You don't need to know anything about political 'science' or economics that a quick study of animal psychology, or a week of watching the Animal Planet can't show you. It's all pretty straight up. Human philosophy has done nothing to change that. In fact, just the opposite, it is used to fortify our instinctive behavior.

      What is really needed is the dissolution of authority that protects special interests no matter where it comes from.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    20. Re:you're ignorant beyond belief by circletimessquare · · Score: 2

      you don't understand the subject matter

      patient -> healthcare system

      is what we want

      patient -> (useless drain for insurance CEO) -> healthcare system

      is what we have

      what exactly is the point of preserving that parasite? why must the USA spend gobs more cash and live shorter lives than other nations like us?

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    21. Re:you're ignorant beyond belief by fustakrakich · · Score: 2

      It costs nothing to let the parasites wither and die on their own. But people must be allowed the option of having a private room with cable TV and a extra 'nurse' if they can afford it. If an insurance agent can make the arrangements, so be it. It can all exist alongside a government system. Let the money changers have their fun, just don't give them any form of exclusivity or monopoly.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    22. Re:you're ignorant beyond belief by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

      nobody is going to skip a needed test. or they are not a competent doctor. you do the tests you need to do to do your job

      are you telling me some doctors will be like "i know i need to run test {ABC} to rule out condition {XYZ} but i'm not going to do it". because... because why? what is your logic whereby a doctor will not run this test?

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    23. Re:you're ignorant beyond belief by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      Earlier, you said:

      pay the doctor the same whether he runs no tests or 100 tests and you will get the actual number of tests needed to diagnose a patient

      And then you said:

      are you telling me some doctors will be like "i know i need to run test {ABC} to rule out condition {XYZ} but i'm not going to do it". because... because why? what is your logic whereby a doctor will not run this test?

      Because tests aren't free. If a doctor only gets paid for 1 test, they're not going to order the other 14 that might narrow down the result, especially if it only takes one unpaid test to push the equation into a net loss. That's just basic economics. If it costs $40 to perform a test that a doctor bills $50 for, they're not likely to do a second one for free.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    24. Re:you're ignorant beyond belief by Magius_AR · · Score: 1

      a free market in real life translates to "give as many expensive tests as we can get away with" healthcare isn't a MARKETPLACE. it is not driven by best price, because the buyer has no control to seek the cheapest service. no knowledge of medicine..... face reality: there are some issues in life, where, believe it or fucking not, market forces do not help, and make things worse

      I don't get it -- you just said yourself that the healthcare market is not a free market, yet you blame capitalism for its failure? How the hell do you justify that?

      no time when he is having a heart attack to shop around

      Emergency care is a very _very_ small subset of total healthcare costs. (in the single percent range). So this whole line of dialogue is, and has always been, a straw man. In reality, people typically have plenty of time to "shop around" -- what they don't have is the opportunity to do so, namely because the "government/insurance company/doctor" love triangle explicitly defies reason by judging costs by arbitrary negotiation rather than actual reality. The concept of "negotiated rates" is assinine in the first place. When I buy a product on Amazon, I don't have to haggle for "the best price", yet in certain market segments (such as auto sales or health insurance), suddenly we're in a bartering market. Things should cost what they cost, to _everyone_.

    25. Re:you're ignorant beyond belief by Magius_AR · · Score: 1

      but the idea that healthcare should be an actual free market place, is fucking insane. you do understand that, right?

      I certainly don't see why the bulk of it can't be free market. Hell, even in most European countries where public option is common, the private industry does most of the actual legwork. Outside of truly emergency cases, which are already covered by EMTALA + insurance, explain to me why a free market fails when it comes to healthcare (assuming the US system really was free)

  23. Not restricted to Medicare by pesho · · Score: 4, Informative

    The type of fraud described in the article is not restricted by medicare but is pretty much standard practice in most medical offices that use electronic billing.It is a simple play on the "power of the default" that makes it difficult for doctors to behave honestly even if they don't intend to carry out fraud. The way it works is that when a doctor or a nurse pulls a page for a particular task, all possible tests and procedures are checked by default. In many cases there are a dozen or so check boxes that the doctor will have to actively uncheck if he/she needs to just take the pulse of the patient. Naturally, doctors don't have neither the time nor the patience to click around the screen. They also don't have the incentive to reduce their income while wasting their time. An obvious and simple solution would be to set the default to all procedures unchecked and require manual input for to check the boxes. If I remember correctly this is how electronic records are handled in the Keiser hospitals. Another thing that should be required is to retain and provide unique tracking information for every sample and test being done. This is also not difficult because the sample tracking is already part of the software. Finally it should be legislated that the medical records belong to the patient, not the medical office. I don't see why I have to repeat the same panel of tests and fill same questionnaires every time I choose to ask for a second opinion or if due to various reasons I seek help from a different practitioner.

    1. Re:Not restricted to Medicare by elaykyd · · Score: 1

      Healthcare Coding Expert: Fraud is not standard practice. The unfortunate reality is that healthcare delivery in the U.S. is currently guided by a third party, not the patient and not the provider. Insurance is often the perpetrator of discord and can be considered the portion of the health care business equation that puts "business" before the treatment of you/us the patient. Fee schedules or reimbursement meaning ICD-9 to CPT's combos are awfully mis-understood by some folks on previous posts; My contract pays X amount per procedure. This can be RVU based and/or fee schedule or contract executed based. Simply put, I bill $100 for a 99213 (office visit) and Medicare pays me 76.19 in LA county and a tad more in OC. A commercial carrier like Aetna/BC/Cigna/UHC may have a contract with me from 80% to 125% of that allowable. IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT PRICE I PUT ON THE PROCEDURE...I get paid a contracted rate for services provided to in network/contracted lives. OON (out of network) may pay more but many insurance policies or "product lines" do not have OON benefits, check your own. All of these commercial policies are generally ERISA based and laws governing them are quite different then the mainstream patient population, the Managed Care lives. Fact, most procedures cannot be fraudulent as what we code is what was done...period... the best EMR is the images we take and of course cameras during arduous surgeries/OV's are a viable future thought for EMR gurus out there. Observation on simple procedures/visits that we just can't make up: Hip/Knee Replacements, Nuc Medicine, CT (as mentioned above, which by the way remove a zero and this is what most HMO/IPA's pay for said procedure $300),MRI, Vasectomy, Delivery, and of course the ever argued about family practice Office Visit where the doctor after costs takes home a big $20 for putting his/her license, staff and practice on the line in hopes of keeping a non compliant patient alive. S/he can't make up how much time was spent or how much thought and materials were used, this is now very traceable much to the chagrin of payors. You see an MD can't fuck up once a day like an attorney or an exec from any insurance company (probably attorney) but they must keep their doors open and one item that actually has helped them collect money on services they performed is an audit system or scrubbing software that let's them put a team of scrubs out & play on the same field as the industry that's holding your health in their hands, insurance...which by the way are are the ones that really need to be audited for fraudulent clandestine shit. In the end if you need your ticker checked out in that time of need or you have a baby with a fever of 105, try calling BC/BS see how fast they help, otherwise come to my office we'll see you because we are actually concerned with you and your health. By the way it's HIPAA not HIPPA and the ACA and ACO's are upcoming notables for those in the know so be prepared.

  24. The majority is the same by bussdriver · · Score: 1

    The majority of voting yanks are wankers. Those who do not vote do not matter.
    The half that vote has severely limited choices and are misinformed most are probably wankers.
    I'm a yank but I'm in the minority; the voting informed who are not wankers.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5OWRRJh-PI

  25. My 0.02 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My guess is providers are charging more money and seeing higher profits as a result of the reduced overhead costs associated with the electronic medical records push. Perhaps providers have found a way to manipulate the electronic system in their favor as well.

  26. Paper gets lost, forgotten, destroyed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I am not surprise in the least. As an employee of a group benefits provider (ie: private healthcare insurance), we were often told that the reason our own benefits plan (ie: the one that us employees paid into and used) did NOT have an electronic drug card was because it cost too much. They explicitly said that payouts to customers on the paper system was lower because receipts were lost, forms improperly filled out, etc.

  27. Fsck the US medical system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Save your cash in a dedicated account and fly to India for treatment as and when you need it.

  28. Who cares what the NYT says by proca · · Score: 1

    While costs may be going up in the short term, the long term savings in life and treasure by moving to electronic records will more than make up for it.

  29. My only regret about 9/11... by mike1214 · · Score: 0

    ...was that more "people" who "think" like you weren't killed.

    You want to solve the health care problem? Repeal EMTALA and the various laws that shift costs and shield pharmaceutical companies and health care providers from competition.

    But you don't want that, because that would mean less power for the government, less power that sub-humans like you have over people like me.

  30. Simple Fix by maz2331 · · Score: 1

    Just allow billing per hour at a fixed rate, regardless of what the procedure is. Problem solved.

    1. Re:Simple Fix by Nemilar · · Score: 1

      Sorry, but this is a terrible idea.

      Why should something like a strep throat examination cost the same per hour as an MRI or chemotherapy?

      All that will do is drastically increase the cost of basic services and make them out of reach of most people, reducing the overall access to basic medical care.

      --
      Nemilar http://www.techthrob.com - Visit Me!
  31. Fee for Service is the problem by jayveekay · · Score: 1

    If you reward medical service providers for providing as many services as they can (or in fraud cases billing for services they don't provide), then you should not be surprised to find costs growing out of control.

    Ancient Chinese Proverb went something like: "Pay doctor when you are healthy. Stop paying doctor when you are sick." That creates the financial incentives for the medical profession to be efficient.

    There are some providers in the USA that break out of the fee for service model and provide good, efficient care.

    1. Re:Fee for Service is the problem by izomiac · · Score: 1

      All payment systems have perverse incentives. Fee-for-service encourages doctors to err on the side of doing procedures. Capitation (per patient) encourage cherry picking the healthiest patients (and moves financial risk from the insurance company to the doctor, which is asinine). Bundled payments (per diagnosis) encourage over-diagnosing (and treating) patients as well as cherry picking. Flat salaries encourage doctors to see fewer patients (and we already have a doctor shortage).

      America is all-ears if you have a better idea than these. Very few doctors outright game the system, but humans tend to repeat what they're rewarded for. There's a lot of professional opinion and borderline cases in medicine, and the way one errs is usually consistent with the way one gets paid.

  32. So let's say we do away with all that by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    what's more likely:

    a) Rates drop since Insurance Companies couldn't just check up on their competitors rates and use that information to fix prices without colluding (*cough*auto-insurance*cough*).

    c) Insurance Companies pocket the savings and pay them out in the form of big cash bonuses for the board of directors?

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  33. No one else has a problem with the cheap jab? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    At Armstrong? Hardly necessary.

  34. The Watertown Arsenal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Once upon a time it was a factory that kept Americans free by building cannons. Now it's home to bogus software houses. Athenahealth ain't the only in that complex cashing in on the broken healthcare system.

    It's no coincidence that Mitt Romney's Bain capital had major investments in these companies and that the SOB decided it would be good to make heath insurance mandatory.

    These bastards are pure evil.

  35. Not everyone thinks paper is a good idea. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Imagine you are a cardiologist. A foolish nurse leaves a hat on a lamp in the break room next to to records room and causes a fire that burns the room and the room next door with the records. The fire is contained and the nurse is fired (no pun intended), but now a few records are lost. The next day, you are about to perform a heart catheterization on a patient. But now, you have no medical records for her because they were written on those pieces of flamable paper. You have no idea what this patient's history is or what it is they need or what you had planned to do for them. You ask the patient, "Do you mind telling me what it is that I see you for?"

    Paper is a bad idea, medical records should be engraved on stone.

    These kids and their damn liquid-wood-molded papyrus! You're not a "writer" without your hammer and chisel!

  36. A government mandate increases costs???!!!! Never! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Really, a government mandate causes costs to increase? And this is a surprise why?

    Just wait until Obamacare takes off, then you'll really see costs increase and service decrease.

  37. Healthcare Solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As mentioned, US Healthcare costs are inflated by the following factors:
    1) A patient has healthcare insurance, which potentially gives them the ability to pay $10's of thousands in service
    2) A doctor that does not perform exhaustive (expensive) tests on a patient could fall prey to a lawsuit for millions of dollars
    3) The patient may not directly be responsible for those test costs, instead referring it to the insurer
    4) The doctor has no cost to perform the tests, and only makes money, and decreases potential liabilty
    -Thus defensive medicine, exploded costs, overprescribed tests and procedures -

    Now, to solve this:
    1) Create the following mechanism to control the potential liability cost of medical providers:
    Each medical provider office / institution may optionally declare a maximum pain and suffering liability cap for their office. Let us call that number X. They must post X at the entrance to their office, just like a bank must post FDIC insured to $250,000 on their entry and marketing. Also, the medical office must publish that X number clearly on their patient disclosure and billing agreement sheets in advance of voluntary service.
    2) The value of X may not be under 2 times the annual US poverty level for a single adult (say, $26,000 for 2 years).
    3) The dollar value of X must be available in the case of suit, either in an escrow account or certified insurance form (similar to auto insurance).
    4) if the medical office does not have the dollars available, or is found to not publish their dollar figure as presribed, then they cease to have such libel protection for the course of 6 months. Any lawsuit in that time would not be capped for pain and suffering damages.
    5) To cover the situation where a person is unconscious, the state may designate a minimum X coverage (let us say, $100,000) for the medical office to be able to treat such a patient. An ambulance would not take a comatose patient to a lower covered office.

    In this fashion, a small medical office can place a small pain and suffering X cap and control their costs. In turn, members of the community could get low-grade cheap medical service. High end medical service, with higher costs, would advertise their higher X factor, indicating greater self confidence. All parties win, but the lawyers.

  38. Bad bureaucracy by mr100percent · · Score: 1

    The problem is bureaucracy. I work in a clinic, and the new Electronic Health Records REQUIRE every patient's email address. The Health Care regulations require that the patient be able to access his or her records securely online via a website. The problem is that our clinic has a lot of senior citizens and nursing home patients. An 85-year-old usually does not have an email address, in my experience. Thus the clinic is forced to use dummy email addresses etc. The system won't allow a blank, and the government will not reimburse for empty records.

  39. Easier to clone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If it's easier to clone it's also way way way easier detecting this sort of fraud.. not having to dig through papers and what not..

  40. ROFLMAO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If a doctor was coding for a 10 minute E&M (evaluation and management) but was actually spending 20 minutes with the patient.

    OMFG

    ROFLMAO

    Doctors spending 20 minutes on patient evaluations. Hahahahaha
    Doctors underbilling. Hahahahhaha

    Dude, stop! You're killing me!

  41. The left isn't about gov't intervention... by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    in the economy. It's about making sure basic needs are met, and working towards improving what is 'basic'. If all you need to be a socialist was government intervention then George Bush jr's administration, with it's bank bail outs and two wars, would be the greatest socialist regime in history...

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  42. Stupid. by Psudonymous_Coward · · Score: 1

    What do they want? They forced everyone to use EMRs and now that the doctors who have to spend 4 times the amount of time to input everything into EMRs have discovered word macros the government is crying that it isn't fair? Did they really think a bean counter with a spreadsheet at the hospital wouldn't figure out how to optimize billing with the codebook they government created? What's next, you can only bill if you type everything out and laws will be passed banning CTRL-V in hospitals? This isn't just stupid, its fucking stupid.

  43. Who would have guessed it? by tjonnyc999 · · Score: 1

    "The Medicare program is a target for fraud because it is based on the "honor system" of billing. It was originally set-up to help honest doctors who helped the needy with medical services."

    Let's take a system that's rife with fraud, and instead of fixing it, let's make it BIGGER. What could possibly go wrong?

    On top of that, let's put out several thousand pages of new regulations, taxes, fees, and surcharges, and let's hire an additional 11,000+ IRS agents to monitor all that. Of COURSE costs will go down!

    Those private insurance companies that have fraud rates in the 1%-2% neighborhood, compared to the Medic[are/aid] fraud rates in the ~20%? Let's impose price caps and other financial limitations on them, while forcing them to provide more and more coverage. Profits? Who needs them, when you're talking about "the greater good"? So, they'll go out of business, serves them right, those fat cats. Who cares if they were 10 times more efficient than government-run health insurance?

    "In fiscal year 2010, the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services (CMS)—the agency that administers Medicare and Medicaid—estimated that these programs ade a total of over $70 billion in improper payments." Source: GAO testimony, March 9, 2011, retrieved from http://www.gao.gov/assets/130/125652.pdf

    ...ObamaCare - yet another RESOUNDING SUCCESS of this administration. On every account.

    1. Re:Who would have guessed it? by tjonnyc999 · · Score: 1

      BTW, when a government agency admits $ 70 billion dollars' worth of fraud - how much fraud is really there? Think about that.

  44. There's always a down side.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "But, in reality, the move to electronic health records may be contributing to billions of dollars in higher costs for Medicare, private insurers and patients by making it easier for hospitals and physicians to bill more for their services,"

    So we should go back to paper systems? What about putting them in jail for fraud instead and creating a bunch of jobs at the same time.