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Pakistan's PM Demands International Blasphemy Laws From UN

eldavojohn writes "An article published in Pakistan's Daily Times contains several quotes from Pakistan's Prime Minister Raja Pervez Ashraf indicating his intent to push for international blasphemy laws in both the United Nations and the Organization of Islamic Co-operation (57 countries). These comments came shortly after Pakistan's 'Day of Love for the Prophet' turned into riots that left 19 people dead and, of course, this all follows the extended trailers of 'Innocence of Muslims' being translated. Questionable circumstances surround who is prosecuted under these 'blasphemy laws' and what kind of fear they instill in Pakistan's minorities. The UN's Human Rights Charter mentions protection from 'religious intolerance' but also in the same sentence 'freedom of opinion and expression.'"

177 of 957 comments (clear)

  1. Message to the intolerant by fnj · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You can't legislate respect.

    1. Re:Message to the intolerant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      you can legislate control. respect isnt the goal here

    2. Re:Message to the intolerant by mwvdlee · · Score: 2, Insightful

      One can be disrespectful of religion yet tolerate it at the same time.
      Ignoring something is considered disrespectful and all you need to do to tolerate something is to simply ignore it.

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    3. Re:Message to the intolerant by safehaven25 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Evolution isn't a proper noun, and their actions aren't intended in the slightest to gain respect... what the hell are you talking about, besides letting out your rage on an internet forum?

    4. Re:Message to the intolerant by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 3, Interesting

      That is indeed the meme shift underway.

      In the west, politics has taken over from religion in arrogating onto itself the power to force its views on everyone. This is reflected in things like the First Amendment.

      This process needs to happen over there. Do not allow it to grab more power.

      Next step: stripping it from politics. This was done once but it clawed its way back in. Politics and religion generate the same angers not because they are similar, but because they are the exact same phenomenon

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    5. Re:Message to the intolerant by Seumas · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Respect for what?

      Your dumb ideas are yours to have, but I've no obligation to hold them up to any sort of esteem any more than I'm obligated to respect the idea that the earth sits on a stack of turtles in space or that Santa squeezes down six billion chimneys every year. The sooner we stop giving ideas a retreat by couching them in "my belief system", the sooner we can get on with common sense.

    6. Re:Message to the intolerant by Seumas · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's okay to hate fags, but don't you dare say anything about the make-believe magic-man behind my faith that I use to enable my hatred!

    7. Re:Message to the intolerant by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Respect = Tolerance. So, basically, that should be the only law.

      "Respect" and "Tolerance" are basically orthogonal. Tolerating somebody does require that you respect their right to do whatever it is they are doing; but has no necessary connection with respecting whatever it is they are doing. Respect, by contrast, implies some degree of actual regard for somebody, rather than mere sufferance of them.

      In fact, 'tolerate' actually sounds pretty weird if used outside a context where the stimulus is implicitly negative in some respect. You wouldn't ask "How can you tolerate getting a raise and a corner office?" You would as "How can you tolerate that squeaky noise that the vent in your office makes?"

    8. Re:Message to the intolerant by pla · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You can't legislate respect.

      You can legislate education, however. And as people become more educated, they become less religious. Win-win!

      More to the point, you want respect? Start by learning why we think you sound like a complete idiot when you go frothing about your preferred fairy-tale. You want tolerance? Behave like civilized humans rather than rabid dogs. You want the freedom to practice your religion? Clean house and stop letting the worst among you represent your religion to the rest of the world.


      You can't legislate respect, but you can earn it.

    9. Re:Message to the intolerant by Hatta · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Blasphemy laws are legislating disrespect. Disrespect for each individual's free thought.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    10. Re:Message to the intolerant by Nadaka · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Sorry. But no. They are not the same phenomenon. Faith is a requirement for religion, because religions are always false. Faith is not absolutely necessary for politics, because people are genuinely capable of being both capable and and have good intentions, however rare that may be.

    11. Re:Message to the intolerant by paiute · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil" -Thomas Mann

      That's grand. Now whose definition of evil do we use?

      --
      If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
    12. Re:Message to the intolerant by mcgrew · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's okay to hate fags, but don't you dare say anything about the make-believe magic-man behind my faith that I use to enable my hatred!

      It may be OK for Muslims to hate gays, but anyone who calls himself Christian who "hates fags" is fooling himself and needs to read the New Testamment. It has a few choice passages such as "love your enemies" and "judge not." It also has a few choice words about hypocrites that some "Christians" should read.

    13. Re:Message to the intolerant by ichthus · · Score: 2

      Try an experiment: Choose a definition, apply it to the above statements, and evaluate the result.

      --
      sig: sauer
    14. Re:Message to the intolerant by scamper_22 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "You can legislate education, however. And as people become more educated, they become less religious. Win-win!"

      Yeah... of course you can legislate education. It's why every ideology seeks control of the education system. Hint... look up the Hitler Youth, or how communism took over education.

      Just what kind of legislated education do you think Pakistan will introduce?

      90% of education is indoctrination ( extreme word used on purpose). Really most education is about passing on the values of the society to the next generation.

      Many in the West lost sight of that simple reality known for thousands of years.

    15. Re:Message to the intolerant by i+kan+reed · · Score: 4, Informative

      Nope, you can tolerate something and still actively speak against it. Attempting to convince people they are wrong about something is harmless. It breaks into intolerance when you suggest or take action(be it legislative, violent, or manipulative) against a group.

    16. Re:Message to the intolerant by MitchDev · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Shush, the bible isn't meant to be taken as a whole, only fragments that you can twist to control the sheep you lie to with it.

    17. Re:Message to the intolerant by slashmydots · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I guess you didn't realize this amazingly advanced logic but as a christian, compared to muslims, one of us is correct and one is not. There is no "tolerance" when both religions demand that there be no other fake religions. The only person who can truly promote "tolerance" is one who thinks we're both wrong and that's atheists, which is around 18% of the US and the US is not rules by an 18% majority system. So we disagree, deal with it.

    18. Re:Message to the intolerant by groslyunderpaid · · Score: 2

      It has a few choice passages such as "love your enemies" and "judge not." It also has a few choice words about hypocrites that some "Christians" should read.

       
      You were doing good with all but the judge not part. It is an incomplete quote and taken out of context, as so often is done by those who seek to use the bible against the "bible believers". Then again the "bible believers" do the same thing, so hey, what the hell.

    19. Re:Message to the intolerant by Nadaka · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Nope. Religion always have supernatural aspects. Otherwise, it would be called science.

    20. Re:Message to the intolerant by RabidReindeer · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I guess you didn't realize this amazingly advanced logic but as a christian, compared to muslims, one of us is correct and one is not. There is no "tolerance" when both religions demand that there be no other fake religions. The only person who can truly promote "tolerance" is one who thinks we're both wrong and that's atheists, which is around 18% of the US and the US is not rules by an 18% majority system. So we disagree, deal with it.

      Zeus tells me that BOTH religions are fake. And the Pink Unicorn tells me that making Religion into Law is blasphemous and shall be punished in eternal fire.

      Anyway, it's a feeble God who needs armed men to defend himself.

    21. Re:Message to the intolerant by nege · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I'm a Christian and I completely agree with you. Many "Christians" don't even read the Bible. Also, going to church doesn't make one a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car.

    22. Re:Message to the intolerant by nedlohs · · Score: 2

      No, it is when they state "my hatred" that most people read hate into it. Nothing at all do with disagreeing with anything,

    23. Re:Message to the intolerant by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2

      Religions do tend to be a bit touchy about market share; but there is nothing that forbids them from tolerating the fact that everybody else is wrong and going to hell. Indeed, as demonstrated by the relative passivity of most of the world's theists, they generally do. Honestly, that's one of the most interesting things about people who profess that our beliefs and actions have infinite positive or negative consequences: most of them act a great deal like everybody else, aside from a few hours a week of minimally demanding ceremonial behavior.

      One would, naively, expect that the infinite valuation of salvation goods would lead to fanatical behavior on a scale that would leave the world knee deep in mangled corpses and televangelists. But it doesn't. It's odd.

    24. Re:Message to the intolerant by X0563511 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Lets be fair, here. Faith is a requirement because of a lack of evidence. This is not the same thing as false, just as it most certainly is not the same thing as true.

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    25. Re:Message to the intolerant by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 2

      Respect != Tolerance, being left alone = tolerance. Being intolerant implies you will not sit still and accept the condition, you will attempt to remedy it.

      Intolerance usually involves someone taking action against what they don't tolerate. This gets confused a lot, especially by the gay community, wherein the best they can hope for, and all they deserve, is to be left alone. But they insist on ACCEPTANCE (also != respect), which will not happen in this generation. You can't legislate acceptance. You CAN legislate tolerance, and we have for time uncounted though it rarely applies internationally.

      What Pakistan is asking for is another thing entirely, and no way in hell do they get it. They will just have to learn about sticks and stones like every other 5 year old. The fact is you can call Jesus a homosexual, womanizing, child molestor with a penchant for violence, and while there will be uproar and disgust, a few calls for take-down and a lot of annoying lectures about how the decline of the alleged traditional US "christian" (whatever that is) religious state. But there won't be riots, and it has nothing to do with the passive and accepting nature of christians (they have a long history of violence as well). But over the years they have learned that what someone says about their messiah does not make it fact, and really doesn't matter. Any sensible person seeing that idiotic youtube video will just ignore it as the trash that it is.

    26. Re:Message to the intolerant by Nadaka · · Score: 3, Interesting

      from your same source: 1. belief in, worship of, or obedience to a supernatural power or powers considered to be divine or to have control of human destiny

    27. Re:Message to the intolerant by amiga3D · · Score: 2

      Indeed, the message is to love sinners. So many who claim to be Christians don't seem to get the message but instead want to rush to judge others. Many need to read the passage about taking care of their own sins before attacking others (Matthew 7:1-5).

    28. Re:Message to the intolerant by DigiShaman · · Score: 4, Funny

      The Islamic community do not want their women to be educated. To legislate education might actually be disrespectful if not blasphemes to their religion.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    29. Re:Message to the intolerant by ahabswhale · · Score: 2

      There's a lot more "excepts" besides mathematics. For starters, you can add in all of the sciences. Really the indoctrination stuff happens in subjects like history, religion, and government classes.

      --
      Are agnostics skeptical of unicorns too?
    30. Re:Message to the intolerant by DarkOx · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You should maybe read the Bible before quoting it.

      "judge not" has a great deal of context around it and does not mean "judge not" at all. It means you will be held to whatever standards you hold others. Its really more about our tenancy to rationalize our own ill behavior and to remind us to be "open minded" about the acts of others as they may very well have a reason for what they do. Don't demand the head of a man for stealing a loaf of bread, he might be desperately poor with starving child at home. Someday you might be in the same situation and you would want a little forgiveness and understanding.

      If there is something you believe is so wrong that you yourself would never ever do it no matter what, hope to die (and its otherwise consistent with the new testament), than its completely okay as a Christian for you to judge another for it, even harshly.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    31. Re:Message to the intolerant by CanHasDIY · · Score: 3, Informative

      Who grades the evaluation?

      You.

      Stop being intentionally obtuse - it does nothing to further your point, and only serves to make yourself look like a pedantic jackass.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    32. Re:Message to the intolerant by Nadaka · · Score: 2

      Would it make you feel better if I said that ALL of a statistically relevant sampling of religions have been proven false, to the point where the odds of any of the untested religions not being false is statistically irrelevant?

    33. Re:Message to the intolerant by Hatta · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If there were evidence it wouldn't be religion, it would be science.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    34. Re:Message to the intolerant by X0563511 · · Score: 2

      I don't see how that would be incompatible.

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    35. Re:Message to the intolerant by Hatta · · Score: 3, Funny

      the US is not rules by an 18% majority system.

      Of course not. The US is ruled by .1%.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    36. Re:Message to the intolerant by ultranova · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "judge not" has a great deal of context around it and does not mean "judge not" at all.

      And so we go from "judge not" to "judge harshly, confident on your moral superiority" in just two three short paragraphs, one of which was an ad hominem. Ah, the wonders of theology!

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    37. Re:Message to the intolerant by HornWumpus · · Score: 2

      Sorry, but there is no majority religion in the USA. No matter what you believe, the majority thinks you are incorrect.

      Christian is too generic, it doesn't describe any particular sect or set of beliefs.

      Also agnostics and even most Christians would agree nobody has it 'right'. The Christians who insist their particular sect has things right are scary stupid BTW. We should let them fight it out.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    38. Re:Message to the intolerant by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 4, Informative

      Then why do half of all scientists consider themselves Christian?

      At least if you're talking about in the US, I think you're overstating the number quite a bit. But even if it's true, considerably more than half of the US population as a whole identifies as Christian, so there's still a pretty strong negative correlation between being a scientist and being a Christian, or religious in any form.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    39. Re:Message to the intolerant by dcollins · · Score: 2

      That's some very fine religious interpretive mangling bullshit that you've got going on there. "Judge not" doesn't mean "judge not" indeed. Very nice. I suspect I can guess your sect that engages in that more than others.

      --
      We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
    40. Re:Message to the intolerant by RabidReindeer · · Score: 2

      it's a feeble God who needs armed men to defend himself.

      This is brilliant, mind if I pass it around?

      Fine with me. Of course, if you get struck by lightning...

    41. Re:Message to the intolerant by Lucractius · · Score: 2

      1st, you totally earned your place in my +1 modifier pile here in this thread.
      2nd, there are a few examples remaining of religion that isnt violently opposed to others, most notably Hinduism. I'll steal the quote from wikipedia since it says it quite well.
      Hinduism - Beliefs

      Hinduism grants absolute and complete freedom of belief and worship. Hinduism conceives the whole world as a single family that deifies the one truth, and therefore it accepts all forms of beliefs and dismisses labels of distinct religions which would imply a division of identity. Hence, Hinduism is devoid of the concepts of apostasy, heresy and blasphemy.

      Quite refreshing really.

      --
      XML - A clever joke would be here if /. didn't mangle tag brackets.
    42. Re:Message to the intolerant by tehcyder · · Score: 2

      it's a feeble God who needs armed men to defend himself.

      This is brilliant, mind if I pass it around?

      No no, it's just God giving mere mortals a chance to exercise their free will, which He gave them in the first place. So they could choose to defend Him. Or something.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    43. Re:Message to the intolerant by RabidReindeer · · Score: 2

      I guess you didn't realize this amazingly advanced logic but as a christian, compared to muslims, one of us is correct and one is not. There is no "tolerance" when both religions demand that there be no other fake religions. The only person who can truly promote "tolerance" is one who thinks we're both wrong and that's atheists, which is around 18% of the US and the US is not rules by an 18% majority system. So we disagree, deal with it.

      Zeus tells me that BOTH religions are fake. And the Pink Unicorn tells me that making Religion into Law is blasphemous and shall be punished in eternal fire.

      Anyway, it's a feeble God who needs armed men to defend himself.

      It's a feeble mind who doesn't realize that if God or Satan could do absolutely anything they wanted with no rules and affect humans via any method and remove all free will and veto and human action, that wouldn't work so well. Learn about something before you talk about something.

      So you're telling me that God is running a Wrath franchise, is that it?

      If you have faith in an all-powerful, all-knowing God, you understand that the petty noises that infidels make are less than nothing, like waves breaking on the rocks of truth. The make a splash, then they are gone. Another splash, it too is gone. But the rocks are the rocks and remain. But ordinary rocks erode, whereas the rocks of Truth abide forever.

      On the other hand, if your faith is weak, you will attempt to take matters into your own hands, because you do not believe that the truth defends itself, while lies break into a thousand pieces. This, too is free will. However, it is the free will of attempting to take away the free will of others.

      So I repeat. A feeble God is an untruth, and cannot survive without external help. A True God endures regardless.

    44. Re:Message to the intolerant by groslyunderpaid · · Score: 2

      i.e. it doesn't say "judge not, period", it says "judge not, unless you want to be subject to similar judgement". Thats why it goes on to say beam in the eye, mote in the eye, and all that.

      Its not telling me not to call you out for stealing the candy bar, its telling me IF I call you out for stealing the candy bar, I better not be pulling money straight out of the register while others aren't looking.

      In other words, given the bible calls out both homosexuality as well as adultery and stealing, you have no right to call out a person for homosexuality if you are committing adultery or theft.

      It does not simply mean "do not judge, EVAR" as due to other passages such as:
      John 7:24 "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment."
      1 Cor 6 “Do you not know the Saints will judge the world?”
      1 Cor 5:3 "For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed"

      Forgive me if you were just being overly broad, I just get tired of people who regurgitate a phrase of 2 words every time someone calls them out, like its an excuse for them to ignore their "holy book" when it suits them .

  2. Blasphemy! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Your demand for "blasphemy laws" is, to us, blasphemy!

    1. Re:Blasphemy! by Nerdfest · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If the UN charter mentions 'protection from religious intolerance', why are the extreme demands of some religions (or lack thereof) being heeded at all? These demands sound like the very definition of religious intolerance.

    2. Re:Blasphemy! by interval1066 · · Score: 2

      In my religion, Toiletism, we pray to toilets. Anyone who blashemes by using sacred toilets as waste recepticles needs to be dealt with. We're going to the UN...

      --
      Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
    3. Re:Blasphemy! by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No, no, no. Stop this stupid equivocating crap. Demand for blasphemy laws is no more blasphemy to a free speech activist than rejecting intolerance is intolerance from a free love hippy. It is not even funny. It's just wrong.

      Here's why: the concept of free speech is based on human rights, not God's demands. That means that it cannot actually be blasphemy, which is specifically defined as speech harmful to God's image. Furthermore, free speech is based on the understanding that people will be enforcing laws, which means that people will be interpreting laws, which means that something as nebulous as "thou shall not insult me" is guaranteed to be abused in the most terrible fashion, and therefore has no place in a book of law. To put it another way: the requirement inherent in free speech that I tolerate your foul mouth has nothing to do with requiring to tolerate your actions, or your calls to action. If you're going to advocate restrictions on free speech, free speech activists will come down on your ass.

      I know you were going for funny, but there are too many idiots out there who see this and go "Hypocrites! All of you! Now let me play my Call of Duty 27".

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    4. Re:Blasphemy! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      People still don't know how to handle an illness where the patient doesn't want what would be good for him, from his sane version's standpoint.
      Do you force them to do what you think they would want... which will always be what *you* think is good... and thereby impose yourself on them and take away his individuality and freedom? (Sadly, most people do not even accept the fact that what they deem globally right/wrong, is only their own bias.)
      Or do you let them run around, even though you fully know they hurt themselves and others, and inside is a faint rest of themselves, screaming to be saved? (Sadly, most people don't seem to have the empathy and/or intelligence to feel bad for them.)
      It's complicated.

      Even when it's blatantly obvious, that they are harmful and dangerous to us, and the delusions serve no purpose other than to flee from an unbearable/unprocessable reality.

      We still think that one has to accept and tolerate the ignorance and delusions of others.
      In the 21st century, with psychology finally getting a solid foundation in the form of neurology, we still don't treat it like the full mental illness that it is.
      Let alone being landed in the heads of politicians...

      (Posting anonymously, because those ill with religious schizophrenia will hate-mod me down anyway. They just can't help it. And I can understand them. It's like a life-threatening thing to them. [And neurologically, it actually really is. At least for the brain.])

    5. Re:Blasphemy! by eth1 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If the UN charter mentions 'protection from religious intolerance', why are the extreme demands of some religions (or lack thereof) being heeded at all? These demands sound like the very definition of religious intolerance.

      Yeah, and what happens when someone stars the religion of Malsi, where the main doctrine is the denunciation of Muhammad, and venerating him is blasphemy? Will the UN sanction anyone practicing Islam?

      You can't ever have the right to not be offended, because there's someone somewhere that will be offended by you taking offense, so one of you will always be offended.

    6. Re:Blasphemy! by tilante · · Score: 3, Interesting

      That Creator, however, is not necessarily a god -- it could be an evolutionary process.

  3. Really? by Cryacin · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Please, will the sensible and non-crazy muslims please stand up already and disown these lunatics?

    This is not religious intolerance, but rather intolerance against extremely disproportionate acts. According to the muslims who riot, it is absolutely appropriate for people to stand up and violently destroy property, and take people lives. Surely this is not what Islam and the Koran truly stands for?

    --
    Science advances one funeral at a time- Max Planck
    1. Re:Really? by dskoll · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Surely this is not what Islam and the Koran truly stands for?

      And what if it is? It seems to me that Islam does condone (hell no, recommend) the use of violence to spread Islam.

    2. Re:Really? by Rob+the+Bold · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Please, will the sensible and non-crazy muslims please stand up already and disown these lunatics?

      Sensible, non-crazy members of [insert religion name here], while the majority, give very boring interviews that get bad ratings.

      --
      I am not a crackpot.
    3. Re:Really? by Chrisq · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Please, will the sensible and non-crazy muslims please stand up already and disown these lunatics?

      But not to protest would be blasphemy, you could be convicted for it. Hell, if this law takes affect we might all have to do a Muzzie and riot or risk prosecution.

    4. Re:Really? by Tx · · Score: 5, Informative

      "They already have. Most don't like the video, but also don't like the rioting. Problem is, how can they stop it? And how are they supposed to make a statement disowning them? "

      Trouble is, there seem there don't seem to be enough of the non-crazy Muslims in some countries. When you have a government minister in Pakistan offering a $100000 bounty for the murder of a foreign civilian, and he's not instantly dismissed, you have a serious problem. He can do that because a large majority of the population back those views, and he knows it. In Pakistan, not so long ago considered an ally of the west, the crazy extremist types are very much in the ascendant, and a lot of Muslim countries seem to be heading that way. It's not just a small minority of crazies making a lot of noise, it's a large majority of them.

      --
      Oh no... it's the future.
    5. Re:Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actions Speak Louder.

    6. Re:Really? by jythie · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Thing is, such Muslims stand up and denounce such things all the time, but when the media give them attention the sites are bashed for being 'liberal media' since such denouements do not fit with a certain narrative... so there is a rather strong selection bias going on.

    7. Re:Really? by Nidi62 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Islam also says that, if you bring someone into your house, you have to protect them from harm. One of it's central tenets(one of the Pillars) is charity. During the Middle ages, the Middle East under Islam was one of the safest places in the world to live in if you were Jewish, much more so than in Europe. During the Crusades Muslims allowed Christians and Jews to practice their religions freely, paying only a small tax, while Christian crusaders generally enforced a convert or die approach.

      And for the record, the Old Testament of the Bible also condones and recommends killing to spread the religion, or even just to take land that you want, and it's ok as long as they don't believe.

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    8. Re:Really? by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 5, Informative

      the underlying theme in koran writings IS that the dhimmis (ie, all of us non-moslems) are to be conquered or killed. eventually. until then, they are allowed to lie to us and do whatever it takes in order to secure their future.

      LOOK IT UP.

      I wish I was kidding. this is nasty, ugly shit, but its the basic overall guiding concept. it really is ;(

      no peace can be made with belief systems like that.

      (cue the deniers in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1...

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    9. Re:Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The words in the book speak pretty loudly as well. And if you're not going to follow what the book demands, why are you a Muslim at all?

    10. Re:Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Saying "look it up" is not the same as citing a reference, even if it's in all-caps.

    11. Re:Really? by Kjella · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The Muslims are not worse than what Christians used to be with the Crusades, the Inquisition, witch trials and all that. Religions can change, the problem is that Islam largely haven't.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    12. Re:Really? by alexgieg · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It seems to me that Islam does condone (hell no, recommend) the use of violence to spread Islam.

      It depends. It certainly believes that a worldwide Islamic government would be the bestest thing ever, and approves the use of force to get there, but that doesn't directly translate into forcing people to convert. Islamic countries have a long history of keeping several non-Islamic religious groups within its borders, all of them relatively untouched, unharmed, and even with self-governing rights (as long as they recognized their Islamic overlords as being the legitimate rulers, didn't dare trying to convert any Muslim to their faith, REALLY didn't dare offend Islam, and paid their special "2nd-class non-citizen" tax). So, in a way Islam had the first set of rules at something resembling "religious freedom" (as in "freedom to practice") mindset in the pre-Enlightenment world, so much so that it was quite common for European religious minorities to migrate to Islamic countries when things got really bad in Europe, kind of like when nowadays a North Korean dissident runs to China to escape oppression: from his perspective, a huge improvement; from ours, not so much. Evidently, at some point things in Europe started to improve at a faster rate than in the Middle East Islam, then surpassed them, and now we're the ones who look at them as the oppressive bad guys.

      So, not so much the use of violence to spread Islam, but the use of violence to spread Sharia law, which, although a closely related subject, isn't quite the same thing.

      --
      Conservatism: (n.) love of the existing evils. Liberalism: (n.) desire to substitute new evils for the existing ones.
    13. Re:Really? by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 2

      That means then that about a billion+ muslims in the world are not really muslims, because they're not busy spreading Islam through violence.

      What is it going to be? Are you going to legitimize a fringe set of muslim radicals as the only true muslims, or are you going to stop the Culture War that morons on both ends are itching to start?

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    14. Re:Really? by dskoll · · Score: 5, Informative

      Then you don't know anything about Islam other than what you think you've learned from news sites and CNN.

      Go read the Qu'ran. There are plenty of instances in which religiously-motivated violence is condoned or even instructed. Of course, the apologists will immediately cite other examples from the Qu'ran that contradict that. The nice thing about Islam is that its followers can pick and choose: Show the peaceful bits to the ignorant dhimmi and the violent bits to the true followers. You'll never get a straight answer.

      This is not unique to Islam, of course. Most religions have similar contradictions that allow believers to pick-and-choose according to the situation and the audience. The problem is that currently, Islam's violent underpinnings are causing far more problems for the world than the violent underpinnings of other religions.

    15. Re:Really? by dskoll · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I posted citations from the Qu'ran itself. No secondary sources needed to show that Islam condones and promotes religiously-motivated violence.

    16. Re:Really? by Pranadevil2k · · Score: 2

      "They think we are violent and terrible people, let's go be violent and terrible to prove them wrong!"

    17. Re:Really? by Chrisq · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Islam also says that, if you bring someone into your house, you have to protect them from harm. One of it's central tenets(one of the Pillars) is charity. During the Middle ages, the Middle East under Islam was one of the safest places in the world to live in if you were Jewish, much more so than in Europe.

      So, because Christians in Europe used to be violent to other religions you are saying its OK for the Muslims to do it now.

      During the Crusades Muslims allowed Christians and Jews to practice their religions freely, paying only a small tax, while Christian crusaders generally enforced a convert or die approach.

      Tell the whole truth. This payment was seen as acceptance of subjugation, and If someone had agreed to pay jizya, leaving Muslim territory for non-Muslim land was punishable by enslavement if they were ever captured. Also at times it was a heavy rather than light imposition. In addition to this Non Muslims were not allowed to practice their faith in the open, display religious symbols, or build or repair places of worship. They would also not be allowed to testify against Muslims, which is why today so many non-Muslim women raped by muslims have it thrown out as "no case to answer".

      And for the record, the Old Testament of the Bible also condones and recommends killing to spread the religion, or even just to take land that you want, and it's ok as long as they don't believe.

      And I would be as opposed to Christians or Jews doing this as I am to Muslims doing it. The fact is that they don't any more, whereas Muslims do,

    18. Re:Really? by Chrisq · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Surely this is not what Islam and the Koran truly stands for?

      And what if it is? It seems to me that Islam does condone (hell no, recommend) the use of violence to spread Islam.

      Then you don't know anything about Islam other than what you think you've learned from news sites and CNN.

      No, I've studies the Qur'an and listened to the dictates and fatwas of Imams and it certainly is what Islam decrees

    19. Re:Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You are defending the Qu'ran by comparing it to the Bible? You religious people are crazy.

    20. Re:Really? by Rob+the+Bold · · Score: 3, Interesting

      the underlying theme in koran writings IS that the dhimmis (ie, all of us non-moslems) are to be conquered or killed. eventually. until then, they are allowed to lie to us and do whatever it takes in order to secure their future.

      LOOK IT UP.

      Are you sure you are not interpreting the Koran -- assuming you've read it -- through the Christian Protestant, and in particular, fundamentalist, lens of sola scriptura, that is, that the holy book contains all necessary knowledge of the faith? Are you sure that this is also the Islamic standard of exegesis as well?

      --
      I am not a crackpot.
    21. Re:Really? by photon317 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Really, the Middle East wasn't too bad in the early part of the 20th century, either. They were joining the modern world at a decent pace, women's rights were strong, they had universities with open-minded debates, female students, and even female politicians and leaders. They had open discourse on politics and religion, and generally everyone in the region was reasonably tolerant of others' religions.

      It's the *modern* Middle East that's the problem. The *modern* Islamist rule in the region turned everything upside down with a new interpretation of "fundamentalist" Islam and started enforcing it on their societies. There are still living (old) people in the Middle East who remember how it was before all of this, and they're ashamed of what their countries have become. Religion evolves, and it's fair to say that the plurality of the modern practitioners of Islam in the Middle East represent a very different religion than the more peaceful and progressive variant that preceded it.

      There may be an interpretation of Islam that's peaceful, but there are clearly also interpretations that are not. As with Christianity, the important thing in the moment is: which side is winning Islam's internal debate and controlling the majority of its political actions on the world stage?

      --
      11*43+456^2
    22. Re:Really? by gman003 · · Score: 2

      So what we need are sensible, non-crazy members of $religion who act like crazy people to bring in ratings.

      Maybe I should practice frothing while shouting about how while I disagree with your religion, I respect your right to practice it inasmuch as it does not harm others. And then I'll randomly reference long-dead politicians ("Charles W. Fairbanks would never have tolerated such buffoonery! The very concept of the thing would have driven Marcus Lepidus into fits! ALL MY OPPONENTS ARE PRACTICING BOLSHEVIKS!").

    23. Re:Really? by circletimessquare · · Score: 2, Interesting

      i always found it interesting and weird that:

      1. islam initially spread through violent conquest (the middle east), then later through peaceful conversion (bangladesh, indonesia)

      2. while christianity initially spread through peaceful conversion (the mediterranean), then later through violent conquest (south and central america)

      now the christian world is increasingly peaceful, while the muslim world is increasingly violent

      it's a weird historical contrast

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    24. Re:Really? by Bongo · · Score: 2

      There's 1.5 billion Mulsims (a 1500 year old tradition) and there's a few thousand actual violent terrorists.

      Somewhere between those two numbers is Political Islamism, sorta like the American Christian far right who believe secular laws are inferior to God's laws. These are people who believe in a kind of freedom: ie. you are free to do anything you like as long as it isn't forbidden by the Koran or the Hadiths (the sacred examples set by the life of the prophet (a lot of Westerners think it is all about the Koran, but the Hadiths and the abrogations are a bigger part of the story of what they take as moral guidance, and the prophet's life was that of a tribal warrior)).

      It is anyone's guess what percentage of the Muslim world supports and would vote for political Islamism.

      If even the USA, one of the most developed countries, still has a large percentage of people who believe Creationism and oppose abortion on religious grounds, you can just imagine what that percentage might be in the rest of the world, and how political Islamism might be a big movement, and decider in the fate of nations.

      Politics means getting power without resorting to violence, even if your aims are in the end imposing an oppressive system -- you just play the long game to gradually extend your influence. Turkey for example, seemed to be more secular before, but nowadays seems to becoming more of an Islamist state. And Turkey was considered something of a leader towards secular values.

    25. Re:Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "The nice thing about Islam is that its followers can pick and choose: Show the peaceful bits to the ignorant dhimmi and the violent bits to the true followers. You'll never get a straight answer. "

      Gee, just like Christians and the Bible.

    26. Re:Really? by Bobakitoo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Christianity has evolved and we should expect the same from other religions.

      Christianity did not evolve(eg: listen to the current pope's message for example), we simply mocked the shit out of it. Christianity learn it's place and is no longer a threat to the civilized world. The void its demise left in our societies was left empty on purpose. It is not a opportunity for Islam to take over and we must make that very clear by mocking the shit out of their religion too.

    27. Re:Really? by macbeth66 · · Score: 2

      Actually, the Crusades were a result of fear.

      The Christians feared the increasing incursions of the Arabs into the West and banded together to push back the invaders. The best way to do that is to attack their homeland.

      What was done to the Arab people during the Crusades was no better or worse than what the Arabs invaders did to the Christian people. That is not a justification of what was done, but it helps to understand why thing happen.

      The fear of Islam, rational or not, is still ingrained into the minds of the Christians. They are not sure why they should fear Islam, but they know they are to be feared.

    28. Re:Really? by scamper_22 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Sensible, non-crazy, fairly secular Muslim here.

      I've spoken out in favor of free-speech and reform... but you know what. I'm tired of people like you thinking us other Muslims can somehow fix the 'crazy' Muslims.

      There is a reasonable reading of the Islamic text that does mean, you need to spread the Islamic state and when in a position of power to enforce blasphemy laws. This is simply a rather orthodox Islamic position.

      So, I can't 'convince' the 'extreme' Muslims to go against a pretty reasonable reading of the texts. The same text that says pray 5 times a day and tells Muslims how to pray is the same one that tell Muslim women to put on the veil and spread the Islamic state.

      FYI... Islam is not just the Koran. You need the Hadith as well. Hint... the Koran never even says pray 5 times a day. The Koran says follow Mohamed... so what Mohamed did is recorded in the Hadith. Most of what Muslims actually practice is in the Hadith.

      Now that I've given you some background.
      Let me tell you who you should turn your demands towards. Your ridiculous governments who have such a perverse view of rights.

      Religious rights are extreme. As long as someone can say something is part of their religion... somehow that means they should be able to do it.

      Let me tell you how I see it. I live in Canada. Not exactly land of liberty, but a pretty free country.

      This is a country where the government takes control of healthcare, can actually deny me treatment, can control a restaurants use of transfat oil, can send me to jail for smoking a plant, takes half my income to fund, can send in child-care workers if I spank my child, monopolizes the school system...

      My point of all this is not to complain about my rights being infringed or anything. Just to show how much government interferes with my 'rights' already.

      Yet this same government finds it a violation of 'rights' to tell Muslim women they can't wear the niqab. Yeah, which does more social harm. Me wanting to eat fish and chip cooked with transfat oil... or a Muslim women possibly being forced to wear the niqab due to social customs and isolating her and preventing social cohesion.

      And do you know who sits on all these government bureaucracies. It's not us Muslims. It's your fellow 'white' Canadians or American. Who sits on Human rights tribunals or drafts legislation?

      We have real social issues in the Muslim community. And you 'white Canadians/Americans' actually work to support the 'extremists'. You don't stand up for your Western values... then you suddenly demand us 'moderate' Muslims do everything for you.

      Classic Blasphemy example with this video. It pits freedom of speech against a theocracy. And what does the leader of the free world say? What does Barack Obama say? Does he come out in strong support of Free Speech and Western Values? What does Hilary Clinton say? They spend their effort talking about how offensive the film is.

      Heck, even George Bush... the so called... 'cowboy' barely stood up for Western values.

      Heck, I wonder if Nazism was a religion today, if you Western people wouldn't just sit there trying to be tolerant of it in the name of freedom of religion.

      The only people standing up for Western values are the 'crazy' white people... as you would probably call them. In the UK... it's the EDL. In the US, prolly people you'd refer to as rednecks. In Canada... its our 'rednecks'.

      So pardon me for not going out of my way anymore.
      I was born Muslim. I care about my people and my community, but I've stopped caring. I don't care anymore if you think Islam is a horrible religion. I don't care to defend it. I'm just tired.

      If you Western people won't even stand up for your values and way of life... why should I?

    29. Re:Really? by tilante · · Score: 2

      The Jewish Bible says that anyone who sacrifices to any other god is to be destroyed (Exodus 22:20), and that it's okay to make slaves out of unbelievers (Leviticus 25:44-46). Obviously, no peace can be made with belief systems like that.

    30. Re:Really? by nedlohs · · Score: 2

      Yes because it also isn't peaceful, but instead supports keeping and beating slaves, killing people for their beliefs, punishing people for what their ancestors have done, etc, etc.

      What idiot was claiming it was peaceful? Or was it just the voices in your head?

    31. Re:Really? by nedlohs · · Score: 2

      So what?

      Yes christians are also lunatic nut jobs who love to force people to agree with them and do as they say. How does that have any bearing on Islam and muslims?

      Pol Pot killed less people Hitler or Stalin, so that makes him OK???

      And the historic low points for various people's are irrelevant anyway. The here and now is what matters, and the historic highs for reference - though I'm pretty sure Muslims and Christians are both more able to openly practice their religions in say Australia than anywhere in the Middle Ages. Other than the bits of their religions that involve forcing others to do or not do things.

    32. Re:Really? by Psyborgue · · Score: 4, Informative
      Actually. the problem with Islam is the followers cannot pick and choose.

      2:106: None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?

      What that passage, and other similar passages in the Quran. have been interpreted to mean is that if two verses contradict each other, the latter verse abrogates (cancels) the previous. As the verse implies. Allah can do all things, including change his mind (or as believers would argue, change his commands to better suit changing times). Now the Quran is not arranged chronologically but i'll give you a hint what the last written chapter is. Sura 9. This means that all that peaceful stuff earlier in the Quran, written when Muslims were a minority in Mecca and it was convenient to preach tolerance towards religion were all cancelled by verses like 9:5. There shall be no compulsion in religion? Gone. Thankfully not all Muslims know about abrogation and of those who do, only a minority take seriously.

    33. Re:Really? by similar_name · · Score: 2

      You didn't cite anything so what is there to deny? So here is a verse from the Koran:

      "Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians -- whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor shall they grieve"

      To be fair, like any religion anyone can pick and choose whatever suites them. While all religion spouts that morality is absolute, few provide a basis for morality that isn't contradicting.

    34. Re:Really? by ravenscar · · Score: 5, Insightful

      People like you amuse me. When someone criticizes a non-Christian religion you respond with "Well, the Bible is bad too..."

      Why do you feel that everyone that criticizes a non-Judeo-Chrisitian religion must be a Judeo-Christian? Couldn't it be possible, for example, that a person who rejects Islam because of it's seemingly violent nature rejects Judeo-Christianity for the same reason?

    35. Re:Really? by dskoll · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I don't know much about Iran or Baha'i, so I can't comment,

      Then it's time you learned.

      I went to university with a guy from Iran who literally escaped death by fleeing overland to Afghanistan, thence Pakistan and finally Canada. He had to redo his entire engineering degree because the Iranian officials who wanted him dead would not release proof that he had graduated from university in Iran.

    36. Re:Really? by dskoll · · Score: 2

      Gee, just like Christians and the Bible.

      Your point being... what? Christianity is nasty? Yeah, probably, but so what? Islam is just as nasty and is currently much nastier in practice.

      You also conveniently cut the rest of my post:

      This is not unique to Islam, of course. Most religions have similar contradictions that allow believers to pick-and-choose according to the situation and the audience.

    37. Re:Really? by Razgorov+Prikazka · · Score: 3, Informative

      Although you are right in the point that both books write about violence and other more horrible acts, there IS a difference, and it is this:

      First of all the bible is written in two distinct parts; the old testament and the new one. It is quite possibly the old testament that contains most violent and horrible acts. The old testament describes a god that is vengeful and grim. The smallest mischief and its all fire and brimstone on your puny little ass. Nevertheless, it is god himself who does that, and on those occasions when humans thought they could (or should) be violent, god intervened. This starts with Abel and Cain, where the latter killed the former, and he is punished by god. Even with Sodom & Gomorrah it is God who does all the killing NOT humans.
      Then there is the new testament. In part two of this novel a young protagonist has been send to right some wrongs. First he points out that he intimately knows the main character of part one personally and that he isn't half as bad-assed as described in part one. He goes on telling that God actually wants people to love each other. Casting of the first stone, turn the other cheek, love your neighbour as yourself, be nice to prostitutes and even the guy's from the IRS etcetera etcetera... the list goes on... Then he is treated very unfriendly and goes home.

      Then there is the Koran, This could be viewed as part 3 of the trilogy, OR as a re-write of part 1 & 2 with an alternative ending. Now to come to a good understanding of this book one should read it at least two times, because the chapters are not chronological but sorted in length. This was more convenient to... well who knows? Anyway, it is important to read it twice, first to have an overview, second time to understand the context of each chapter.
      Here God is portrayed as a bad-assed mofo again, but this time he is more like a got-father who tell's people (Muslims) to be violent against non-people (non-muslims). He goes so far as to call non-muslims monkeys and pigs, man he is ill-tempered! That violence is almost always in the form of killing, wich is commanded to the believer, can be found here (Sura 2:191), here (Sura 5:33), here (Sura 8:12), here (Sura 8:60*), here (Sura 8:65), here (Sura 9:5), here (9:29*), here (Sura 9: 123*) and finally here (47:4). Marked * are disputable, it all depends a bit which translation is being used one can be found here: http://www.universalunity.net/English_Translation_By_R_Khalifa.htm

      In short, the difference is that in Christianity being violent is God's job (and no one else's), in the Quran being violent is the job of the believer. There are scores of Christians who want to help God a little (wrongfully if they had read their book) and scores of Muslims who do not kill anyone (wrongfully if they had read their book).

      --
      rm -rf --no-preserve-root / ...and let /dev/null sort them out...
  4. The antithesis of free speech by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...is the perceived right to never be offended.

  5. They're the same thing. by evenmoreconfused · · Score: 2

    "The UN's Human Rights Charter mentions protection from "religious intolerance" but also in the same sentence "freedom of opinion and expression." "

    They're not contradictory -- promoting blasphemy laws is a clear example of "religious intolerance" in my book, because it's not tolerant of someone's right to politely say that they think a given religion is incorrect.

    --
    No. Well...maybe. Actually, yes. It really just depends.
    1. Re:They're the same thing. by fnj · · Score: 2

      Or impolitely. There is no right for people to be polite to you.

  6. Are you serious? by trybywrench · · Score: 5, Funny

    Oh wait your serious, let me laugh even harder! - Bender

    --
    I came to the datacenter drunk with a fake ID, don't you want to be just like me?
  7. He should take a look at his own laws at home by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 5, Informative

    Blasphemy is used to Pakistan to settle scores between feuding parties: http://www.economist.com/node/21562262

    He should maybe clean that up first, before trying to impose that on the rest of the world.

    Oh, and by the way, being left-handed is also blasphemous in Islam: http://islamqa.info/en/ref/82120

    --
    Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
  8. Fahrenheit 451 by ImdatS · · Score: 4, Insightful

    All these comments and requests for "blasphemy" etc, somehow remind me of "Fahrenheit 451" - I'm afraid, because of all these demands, we're really on the wrong track and move towards the world described in Fahrenheit 451...

    1. Re:Fahrenheit 451 by jbolden · · Score: 4, Informative

      The reason he is calling for blaspheme laws is because free expression is coming to Pakistan and is freaking subgroups out. This is quite the opposite of censorship, this is what its collapse looks like.

    2. Re:Fahrenheit 451 by coyote_oww · · Score: 2

      Per the author, Fahrenheit 451 is a tract on the evils of TV. I read it in school and was preached the party line that it was about censorship. I think thats because the English Lit folks fear censorship more than anything, and so anything that could remotely be treated as about censorship becomes about censorship, even it it really wasn't.

      451 has a protaganist who burns books, but eventually reads a few and finds he likes them (for their emotional content, largely). His boss has read a few, and doesn't like them (for their emotional content, they make you FEEL, which is bad). The protaganists wife is the exemplar of why TV is bad - she does nothing but watch it, has no feelings (and little thought). Message diluted by the fact that she's also pretty drugged up. When the protaganist is eventually fleeing, it is TV that is used (primarily) to track him down by broadcasting his image on all channels, and telling everyone to go to their door and look for him at the same time. With a countdown. When he eventually gets out to an independent community, people are memorizing books to keep them alive. They don't start with 1984, Animal Farm, Atlas Shrugged, et.al. They start with literature - the stuff English majors go on and on about, Shakespeare, Melvile, Milton and the like. Stuff that makes you feel, more than political or economic rants.

      Missed message for most people, apparently. Happens sometimes - Upton Sinclair famously said "I aimed for America's heart, but I got it's stomache instead." No socialization, just food regulations.

  9. Counterproposal to the UN by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 5, Insightful

    How about we finally rank freedom of expression firmly above freedom of religion? Freedom of expression already safeguards religious freedom in all the important ways (along with freedom of assembly). But freedom of religion should not include the right to be free from being insulted or offended. We all are offended by something from time to time, but us non-religious types just have to suck it up. And rightly so. In such cases, freedom of expression should trump religious sensitivities

    --
    If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    1. Re:Counterproposal to the UN by fnj · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Hear, hear. This is fundamental. Even the three laws of robotics only worked because the priority was specified.

    2. Re:Counterproposal to the UN by jbolden · · Score: 2

      There is no chance blaspheme laws are coming to the USA. Now with that off the table.

      Assembly + Speech doesn't quite get you freedom of religion. Freedom of religion implies a prohibitions or restrictions on the state being able require acts which implicitly or explicitly require the believer to renounce their beliefs. The classic example is requiring people to make public sacrifice to the city's gods, which was seen a civil duty that Christians refused to perform. Modern day examples are things like the right to ask for kosher food, so for example the US Army buys kosher MREs and makes a reasonable attempt to give them to soldiers who wish to keep kosher.

      Nero would have had no problem with the Christians if all they wanted was the right to assemble and say stuff.

    3. Re:Counterproposal to the UN by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 2

      > freedom of religion should not include the right to be free from being insulted or offended.

      Um no you can't restrict that. All you can do is restrict the offended people from trying forcibly prevent people from expressing thoughts that they find offensive.

      Otherwise you are trying to control people's thoughts. Sorry, but no there is no way to do that.

      http://jim.com/rights.html

    4. Re:Counterproposal to the UN by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 2

      I agree that we'll need to protect religion from prosecution by the state, though I am not sure that the right to kosher/halal food should be included in that. Especially on religious grounds. There are a few cases in NL where it was proposed to serve only halal food in prisons for cost reasons. The idea of having to eat meat from animals that have been slaughtered according to religious rules rather than ones based on animal welfare might deeply offend me, but sorry: mine is not a religious objective, so it wouldn't fly.

      Still, you do have a point and I am ok with keeping freedom of religion in our laws. As long as freedom of speech clearly supersedes it. Nothing in freedom of speech laws would enable persecution of religion.

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    5. Re:Counterproposal to the UN by Bobakitoo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      We should remove freedom of religion. Anything acceptable* a religious person or group do is already covered by freedom of expression and assembly. Religion don't need a special case any more then Trekkies; both groups are obsesses with work of fiction.

      * the extra right of mutilating babies under freedom of religion is not acceptable.

  10. On the other hand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The UN should (if it could) pass an international "don't foist your religion on me" law, forbidding proselytizing, causing injury to others for religious reasons, or religious discrimination of any sort. Passing an anti-blasphemy law is just so wrong, and stifling to just about all free speech!

    1. Re:On the other hand by jbolden · · Score: 2

      forbidding proselytizing

      I have to say that anyone who disallows proselytizing doesn't believe in free speech. Free speech at its core is the right to present arguments in the public forum and convince people of their truthfulness. Which is precisely what proselytizing is.

  11. Dear Pakistan..... by Lumpy · · Score: 3, Funny

    Certainly! we will gladly put those laws in effect.

    As soon as you respect all laws and aspects of other religions, pass and aggressively enforce laws to stop the repression of women in your OWN country, Stop repressing freedom and start hunting down and putting in prison all radical sects of Islam that preach that it's holy to murder people in the name of Allah. Oh and stop the oppression of education, embrace that knowledge is freedom.

    as soon as you guys do all of that and get your house clean and in order, we will have a special meeting to do exactly what you ask.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    1. Re:Dear Pakistan..... by fnj · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Please be careful signing up to do something antithetical to your core morality, just if somebody else will do something you are sure they will never do. They could call you on it. Nobody should ever sign up for anti-blasphemy legislation under ANY hypothetical condition.

      Just tell them you will CONSIDER their demand when they clean up their own act. I would say one second of fair and honorable consideration, followed by a REJECTED sticker, would then fulfill the bargain and leave one's own core morality uncompromised.

  12. Priorities by Millennium · · Score: 2

    This is what happens when you try to give equal weight to two goals that conflict with one another so often: in this case, freedom of expression versus what advocates of curtailing free expression in this way call "human dignity." Sooner or later, one must prioritize. We need to stop pretending that we can have our metaphorical cake and eat it too.

    For the record, when faced with such conflicts, I find the right choice to be the one that maximizes human agency: the ability for people to, through their choices and actions, make a difference in their own lives. Applied here, that means prioritizing the act of expression over passive reaction: in other words, free expression wins.

    1. Re:Priorities by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Thomas Jefferson viewed this as freedom of conscience, that is the state has no authority to dictate a person's thoughts and beliefs. Men have this freedom by their nature. The state cannot remove it.

      The inscription on the Jefferson Memorial reads "I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

      Ultimately this tyranny is what the Pakistan minister intends be enforced by international law.

      We should not be supporting or in fact have any relations with a society such as this.

    2. Re:Priorities by dcollins · · Score: 2

      Thomas who? I'm not finding him in this U.S. history book from Texas.

      --
      We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
  13. Note that their interpretation of "Blasphemy" is " by Chrisq · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Note that their interpretation of "Blasphemy" is "Critical of Islam". From TFA:

    We would go to the UN and OIC and get a law passed to stop anti-Islam activities, including blasphemy, for-ever,

    So burning bibles will be fine, as will be the destroying artefacts of other faiths. Of course it will not interfere with their right to kill anyone who converts from Islam (apostasy has the death penalty in Pakistan and many other Muslim countries, or allow non-Muslims to worship in the open. I suggest that the UN ought to think about preventing the death penalty for changing religion rather than make it illegal to say "Muhammad was violent".

  14. And how do we do that? by cfulton · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Christianity is blasphemy to a Muslim. Islam is blasphemy to a Jew. Mormonism is blasphemy to a Christian. And us atheists, well no religion thinks that ain't blasphemy. So, would this mean that everybody just shuts up about their particular brand of religion or does the world have to pick just one? Because, otherwise it is a joke of an idea.

    --
    No sigs in BETA. Beta SUCKS.
  15. Umm... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 3, Informative

    Blasphemy isn't 'religious intolerance'; but banning blasphemy is fairly obviously contrary to 'freedom of expression and opinion'. There, that was easy.

    Incidentally, since most religions contain significant incompatibilities(on occasion, you get organizational splits purely because of personality spats or disputes over who gets the earthly loot; but all the really good schisms are over doctrine), the practice of almost any religion is necessarily blasphemous(at least by implication, often quite overtly) toward almost all the others.

    In practice, of course, anti-blasphemy laws are usually just an excuse to suppress the minorities and the dissidents; but it would be (morbidly) amusing to watch the epic pileup that would occur if one were actually applied rigorously... There would also be some fun around statements that are simultaneously likely to arouse ire and are confirmed by assorted holy texts, the denial of which would also cause ire(Anything concerning the fact that the god of the old testament is kind of a genocidal psycho, or that Mohammed fucked a nine year old, would qualify, as would, no doubt, an endless number of subtler doctrinal quibbles between more enthusiastic sects).

  16. Fuck allah by AlphaWolf_HK · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Hell, fuck all invisible men in the sky.

    --
    Careful with names containing L slashdot.org/~AiphaWolf_HK slashdot.org/~AlphaWoif_HK slashdot.org/~AiphaWoif_HK
  17. Religious intolerance? They ARE the intolerance by Omnifarious · · Score: 3, Interesting

    This 'religious tolerance' thing is exactly what these rioting mobs are not demonstrating. Religious tolerance does not mean that you don't have to hear anything you don't like about your religion. It means that you do not suffer political or economic repression for your religious beliefs. That's it.

    So I'm sorry (well, no, I'm not really) but no. This absolutely will not fly. I don't care what kind of weaponry people who think rioting over an insult to their religion acquire. They must never be allowed control under any circumstances. This kind of behavior is flat out unacceptable and intolerable. I will never in any way support it and nobody else should either.

    Fix your own worldview, because you will not get to impose it on everybody else. I will never agree to it.

  18. Free speech? by jenningsthecat · · Score: 2

    'Cultural sensitivities' notwithstanding, it seems to me that there's a fairly clear line between speech which is harmful and speech which is just annoying. If my speech purposely incites others to cause harm, then perhaps that speech should be proscribed. If my speech simply expresses an opinion, or makes fun of a person, a group, a religion, etc., then the person, group, or religion just needs to develop a thicker skin and/or turn a deaf ear to what I'm saying.

    So to all of you fundamentalists of any stripe who have your knickers in a twist over people dissing your sacred whatever, GET OVER IT AND GET YOUR SHITTY LITTLE SENSE OF 'SACRED' ENTITLEMENT THE FUCK OUT OF MY FACE! No, the world does not owe you special treatment no matter how hard you pray, nor how fervently and sacredly and preciously you believe in your prophet, your god, your saviour, or your belly button lint. Grow up, and stop turning minor insults into end-of-the-world scenarios. Your fanaticism causes nothing but harm, and I am utterly sick of it.

    A quote from the Sydney Morning Herald piece puts it best: ''Human rights are not about protecting religions; human rights are to protect humans." Personally, the closest I come to religion is to say 'Amen to that!'

    --
    'The Economy' is a giant Ponzi scheme whose most pitiable suckers are the youngest among us and the yet-unborn.
  19. Re:RULE 34 by temcat · · Score: 2

    *in the know*
    Shit.

  20. Pakistan = GOP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The situation in Pakistan is very similar to what is happening within the GOP, namely that through a process of political decay, they have gradually become beholden to the fringe elements of the community. At some point you pass a threshold where events conspire to turn everything into a self-fulfiling prophecy, especially when it becomes an "us versum them" scenario. So instead of reject the fringe elements and reevaluating their position (the healthy choice), they double down.

  21. Re:RULE 34 by BriggsBU · · Score: 3, Informative

    Rule 34: "There is porn of it. No exceptions."

  22. Fuck that by kimvette · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Mohammed was a warmongering, misogynistic, bigoted pedophile, and Allah is a lie. Islam is a religion bent on destruction, murder, and world conquest. Fuck Islam.

    Muslims, read the above. Know it's not a religion of peace because Mohammed taught the principle of abrogation, where the newer writings overrule the older writings where they conflict, and while in the beginning he was peaceful and had good relations with the Jews he grew up with, he later became warlike, hateful, bigoted, and a massive megalomaniac on the scale of Stalin, Hitler, and pretty much every other evil historical figure you can think of, and his writings changed to match his philosophy, hence the jihad changed from one's internal struggle of conquering human nature's evil characteristics to world conquest, He wrote of converting people by the sword if they won't accept his stupid book, and he also preached that Muslims should kill the Saturday people (Jews) and the Sunday people (Christians) since they were friends to the Jews.

    Again: Mohammed was flat-out wrong. Allah is a myth. Islam is a religion of hate.

    Take that, Pakistan! I just blasphemed your ass to next Tuesday.

    --
    The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
  23. Re:RULE 34 by WillerZ · · Score: 2

    As all road cyclists should know:

    Mountain bike shoes and pedals have their place.
    On a mountain bike.

    http://www.velominati.com/the-rules/#34

    Not quite sure what that has to do with Islam, but it's always useful to be reminded of the sacred texts.

    --
    I guess today is a passable day to die.
  24. Problem by mythix · · Score: 2

    For this to work they would have to accept all gods of all religions, and acts against a christian god would also be blasphemous, not just against a muslim prophet because your country is mostly islamic... Recognition of other religions is a problem in most religions... so good luck there....

  25. pakistan, sigh by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 2

    look guys: not only do we not want your stupid 'blasphemy' laws, but we INSIST YOU CHANGE YOUR STUPID WAYS, now that you mention it.

    the world is not compatible with your bullshit ideas. truly, you are a backward believing culture and this resistance to join the modern age is growing rather tiring on the rest of the civilized world.

    please grow up and get your own home in order before trying to 'fix' the rest of us.

    oh, and fuck mohammed.

    --

    --
    "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
  26. so here's the dynamic for the next few decades: by circletimessquare · · Score: 4, Interesting

    1. someone insults islam. could be erudite high culture, like salman rushdie, could be a useless troll, like the "innocence of the muslims" hatemonger. doesn't matter

    2. the muslim world goes apeshit. moderate muslims say the muslims going apeshit do more damage to islam than the insult to islam. they're right. doesn't matter

    3. someone from the west, or in the west, gets killed. this matters

    see, it doesn't matter if you believe that you should be able to say anything you want and it doesn't give anyone else the right to kill you. because there's a large group of extremists who believe that if you insult their religion, this gives them the right, no, the duty, to kill someone, ANYONE from the west. because if some low iq asocial reject who hasn't washed in a week draws a lame cartoon or writes a bad play about muhammad in his mom's basement, this represents the entire west. the reject's basement could be in hamburg. could be in sydney. could be in vancouver. doesn't matter: the entire western "tribe" attacked the honor of the entire muslim "tribe". that's the way it works in their head. now it is ok to kill someone from that tribe, anywhere, anytime. to restore honor. that's the "logic"

    yes, this is some ignorant medieval shit, i agree. but that doesn't matter. what matters is that there is a large group of medieval ignorants who can not be reasoned with who will firmly and dependably adhere to this dynamic

    this will go on and on for decades. what i fear is that it accelerates and destabilizes a country into the hands of a muslim version of hitler

    i try to be an optimistic person in life. that you can solve problems nonviolently. but this is a small planet, getting smaller, because of jet air travel and the internet. and not that we shouldn't aim for peace, but that peace is not possible, due to the determination of a fringe, but a fringe of enough financial backings, sympathies across large enough of a population, and over a dynamic of many decades, whereby large scale bloodshed comes, despite the best efforts of everyone sane otherwise

    muslim moderates, in the muslim world and the west: you can not hide from these fools. you have to fight for your lands. this will make you targets, and a lot of you will be targeted and killed for not being properly devout. but the alternative is these dipshits come to power, and then it is large scale conflict with the west, and it will make wwii look like a tea party. please: take your lands away from these assholes. it will be very difficult. you understand the alternative is worse

    what i fear is simple: fortune favors the bold

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  27. Assholes ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Sorry, but if one of the government ministers of Pakistan is offering a $100K bounty for the lives of these people, then he's a terrorist.

    If Pakistan and other Muslim countries can't do anything but act as terrorists, it's time we treated them as such. That includes their government as Pakistan seems to go a long way to supporting terrorists.

    There's no right to not be offended, and despite claims to the contrary, Islam doesn't exactly demonstrate itself to be a religion of peace and tolerance.

    It may be peaceful at its core, but largely been co-opted by intolerant, ignorant, and violent assholes. If this is truly what Mohammed taught, then he was a false prophet.

    Muslims are supposed to respect the peoples of the book. Instead, they've decided that Christians and Jews pray to a different god (it's the same one) and should be exterminated.

    Islam doesn't deserve respect as we see it from around the world. Instead it presents itself as a cancer.

  28. Why do remain silent on the Otoman empire? by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Funny, so you mention the crusades but not the Otoman empire? Wonder why you tell only one side of a story.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

    1. Re:Why do remain silent on the Otoman empire? by Mike+Buddha · · Score: 2

      or Athiests during WWII (Stalin), Cambodia (Pol Pot), China (Mao), etc.

      Don't forget the French Revolution. The triumph of atheism and rational thought brought about The Terror.

      --
      by Mike Buddha -- Someday the mountain might get him, but the law never will.
    2. Re:Why do remain silent on the Otoman empire? by Artifakt · · Score: 2

      There's a lot more than two sides to this particular story.

      Ty this: http://www.mapsofwar.com/ind/imperial-history.html

      This video shows 16 waves of occupation and conquest across the region we now call the middle east (I'm counting the classical Roman and Byzantine empires as a single wave to get that number). Interestingly, the Crusades are very low on the damage list in terms of either land area or total death and distruction wrought. (Not that they didn't try). The Ottoman empire ranks much higher, but would definitely fall well below the top three waves on area. Since it was later in the game, the damage in terms of population is another story, and it might well rank third by some estimates. Probably the Mongols would be number 1 overall. They fall in the middle era in this schema, when avarage populations were lower, but they were so damned big they probably killed raped, or enslaved more people in total than any others, as well as being the clear leaders by geographical area. Since populations have generally risen with modern times however, the European Colonial era may have been the most grevious, simply because there were more civilians to be rolled over and slaughtered in these more modern times.

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
  29. expanding on your words: by circletimessquare · · Score: 5, Insightful

    intolerance of intolerance is not the same thing as intolerance itself

    "i oppose you because of your skin color" is not the same as "i oppose you because you oppose people simply because of their skin color"

    but in that difference, is the confusion: some social conservatives view the left as the most intolerant. because the left won't respect their homophobia, for example. "how can you say you stand for tolerance when you don't respect my right to deny someone else's right to marry?"

    did you see that trick? did you see how it gets turned around?

    it's the same as "if some troll somewhere makes a bad youtube video about muhammad, the honor of islam must be restored with blood from someone else from your tribe, the west"

    it all comes down to: how do you deal with people who demand respect for a worldview which is essentially disrespectful

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:expanding on your words: by i+kan+reed · · Score: 4, Insightful

      From my perspective, you got it wrong.

      "I oppose you because of your skin color" is a statement that is to be rejected as unethical and foolish. Just because someone subscribes to at least one unethical and foolish position does not justify categorizing them and hating them. The position can be attacked without attacking the person.

      I "tolerate intolerance" in as much as I respect the right of people to hold the position, I don't tolerate it in as much as I will point out the incorrectness of the position, actively fight against acting on the position, and make an honest attempt to convince the holder of their error. In spite of following this course precisely, I've been accused of not tolerating intolerance by people who just don't know what tolerance means.

    2. Re:expanding on your words: by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You can actually generalize that a bit: 'tolerance' is really only a coherent concept with regard to certain classes of stimuli.

      It is, at best, weird to speak of 'tolerance' of things you like. Nobody really talks about 'tolerating' things that they like. They don't not-tolerate them; but they don't tolerate them in any meaningful way.

      It is downright incorrect to speak of 'tolerance' of things that are deemed to be beyond the pale. You don't 'tolerate' murderers or critical security flaws; not because you are 'intolerant'; but because such things are not accorded toleration.

      It's only the intermediate class of things, things that are distasteful, unpleasant, etc; but are accorded some sort of right(or some sort of inevitability, in context, as with the squeaky vent that Facilities is never going to fix), that you can meaningfully 'tolerate', and the degree to which you do so determines how 'tolerant' or 'intolerant' you are(the medical usage semi-overlaps here, in that the less responsive to a given drug you are, the greater your tolerance to it is said to be, just as the less responsive to a given negative stimulus you are, the greater your tolerance is said to be).

      The tricky thing is that, in practice, 'tolerance' is forced to carry two(quite distinct) meanings: The one is strictly a measure of how you endure the third class of negative-but-not-eradicable stimuli. The second is your system of classification for these three categories. That's a wholly different thing; but it has to coexist in the same word.

      In the example you give(assuming the participants are actually sincere, that line frequently isn't), you really have an argument over whether or not homophobia is a class II or class III phenomenon: If it is class III, then failure to tolerate it is intolerance. If it is class II, failure to tolerate it is simple moral clarity. (There may also be a secondary argument over what exactly 'tolerance' means: There are definitely social circles that you will be frozen out of for socially retrograde attitudes; but the Leftist firebombing campaign against southern baptist churches just hasn't panned out... Exactly how polite you are required to be to count as 'tolerant' is a somewhat unsettled question).

      Inconveniently, the case of the Blasphemy Police vs. freedom of expression is probably fairly similar. Nobody seems to be saying "Yup, I think that everyone deserves freedom of expression; but I Just Can't Stand It when I see a picture of Mohammed as a drag queen and I flip out, I'm intolerant, I guess." They are, rather, saying that blasphemy, at least against their favorites, is outside the set of phenomena to which tolerance applies. Inconveniently, while somebody's degree of 'tolerance' relative to a pre-supplied set assignment is measureable, and you can argue for or against given actions and policies based on how tolerant they are, the set assignment itself is basically in the same boat as the rest of moral philosophy: little more than handwaving and appeals to 'intuition' or emotion, or imaginary friends.

    3. Re:expanding on your words: by MozeeToby · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The position can be attacked without attacking the person.

      I disagree, some positions are indefensible and holding them shows a great deal about the person's attitude in general. Racism exposes much more about a person than merely the fact that they hate a certain race.

    4. Re:expanding on your words: by Hatta · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Inconveniently, while somebody's degree of 'tolerance' relative to a pre-supplied set assignment is measureable, and you can argue for or against given actions and policies based on how tolerant they are, the set assignment itself is basically in the same boat as the rest of moral philosophy: little more than handwaving and appeals to 'intuition' or emotion, or imaginary friends.

      No, you can easily come up with empirical measures to determine whether something should be tolerated. Does it materially harm anyone other than the person doing it? If not, it must be tolerated. I don't see anyone claiming that blasphemy causes anyone any specific harm, so it must be tolerated.

      You also don't give philosophy enough credit. Remember, logic is a branch of philososphy. And we can make irrefutable logical arguments about what should be tolerated. Assume for the sake of argument that causing someone offense should not be tolerated. You would then advocate for laws against offense. However, I find such laws themselves offensive, as offensive as any religious person finds blasphemy. Therefore the laws themselves would be illegal. QED, a simple logical proof by contradiction that offense should be tolerated.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    5. Re:expanding on your words: by i+kan+reed · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What ever makes you think they've been exposed to right and good positions through facts and logical argument? Seriously? I posit the following: every human being on the planet believes at least one absurd thing they have never been reasonably challenged on.

    6. Re:expanding on your words: by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2

      That was pretty much the point, there isn't any such thing: even if you accept the premise of the 'why are you so intolerant of my intolerance? Huh? Huh?' argument, the level of intolerance you'll find is incredibly tepid on the American left. It's mostly a footnote to the broader point, which is about the issues with the word 'tolerance'; but in the specific context of where you commonly hear the argument grandparent mentioned, it's worth noting that the 'intolerance' being complained about is generally incredibly feeble.

    7. Re:expanding on your words: by Hatta · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It is easy to form an argument that it does under the assumptions of religion.

      If you allow people to assume whatever they want, you can make an argument for anything. This is why I said "material harm". If you can't measure the harm done, it may as well not exist.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    8. Re:expanding on your words: by amck · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Toleration of people and their rights to autonomy.

      I'm intolerant of _actions_, because these impinge on other people, and hence need to be justified.

      Ideas: no. The world is full of bad ideas, many of which I've had myself. We need to examine and criticize ideas, examine their consequences, etc. No ideas (such as religions) get a free ride. Having held many bad ideas in the past, I don't hold that against people. We're all seeking after truth and a better life.

      As for "general intolerance of all things Southern", the key point you're looking for is prejudice: treat people as individuals, look for their humanity, rather than one of a class. Once you're willing to dismiss people for being racists/black/jew, that way lies the ovens.

      --
      Anyone who believes exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist
    9. Re:expanding on your words: by readin · · Score: 4, Funny

      The reason violent intolerance is so rare on the left is that they control the levers of power by controlling most of the media (both news and entertainment). When the left finds something that makes them extremely angry, they talk about it on their news shows and TV shows. They are able to laugh about it on late night talk shows and SNL. They control the debate to the point that even Republicans (who are, after all, politicians) feel they must give in.

      Conservatives, on the other hand, are silenced. We don't see our views respected and heard. Instead we see "two-sided" debates in which the person supposedly representing our voice is apologizing for us and accusing us of being extremists. Or we read newspaper articles in which our side is misrepresented or ignored entirely.

      That's why Rush Limbaugh and Fox News have become so popular. Sometimes you want to hear your views stated out loud in a forum where you know others can hear them so you feel like you have a voice in the debate. Even though Rush says so much I disagree with, and makes so little logical sense, I will always have gratitude for him because he was the first media personality I ever heard throwing arguments back at liberals. He wasn't logical, and he wasn't fair, but then neither was all the liberal trash I heard and saw on nightly news and TV shows. When your team is losing because the refs keep favoring the other side, you can't help but feel grateful when a ref enters the field who makes unfair calls in your favor. Sure you would rather have all the refs be fair, but since that isn't happening, you're at least glad to have one of the refs on your side.

      --
      I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
    10. Re:expanding on your words: by readin · · Score: 2

      What, What the left controls the media and the right has nowhere to speak. Except that then you talk about all the places where the right not only speaks, but allows no other points of view.

      So the right gets Fox News and Talk Radio. The left has its media sources that are just as biased but they generally aren't as popular. Why? Because the left has so many other sources that, while they aren't completely one-side, lean very heavily to the left. I'm sure the most people on the right would gladly trade Fox News and talk radio for CNN, NBC, CBS, ABC, and NPR.

      The left wing controlled media you disparage in your first paragraph allows discussion from both sides. While it might lean to the center or center left it allows the debate from both sides to be heard.

      Too often it only makes a show of doing so. For example, I regularly listen to NPR. A typical program might have 1 moderator (a liberal), one openly partisan commenter (from the left), one openly partisan commenter (from the right) and two reporters (liberals). And NPR is about as good as it gets.

      Fox news and its ilk simply call all who disagree communist Unamerican traitors. We hear this lie from the right so often that people begin to believe it. The loudest most heard political talk comes from the far right. Please stop with the victim of the lame stream media act. It wears very thin. Poor poor right wing victims.

      Oh please don't say "lame stream media". It is sooo annoying. It's just as annoying as "RMoney" and "I can see Russia from my house" (which Palin never said - that was one of those mainstream TV shows that you seem to think isn't very liberal). As for Fox News calling folks who disagree "Unamerican traitors", I'll have to take your word for it since I don't watch it. But I guess it's a bit like the rest of the news channels calling anyone who disagrees with them "racists".

      --
      I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
    11. Re:expanding on your words: by Dr.+Hellno · · Score: 3, Informative
      Corroboration: this story from This American Life. The first act has a few funny anecdotes about absurd things people believed for longer than would seem plausible.

      Kristy Kruger: It was about a group of five to seven people, kind of standing around the keg, just talking. And somehow a discussion of endangered species came up, in which I posed the question, is the unicorn endangered or extinct? And basically, there was a big gap of silence [...]and then everybody laughed. And then that laughter was followed by more silence when they realized I wasn't laughing. And I was like, yeah, oh God, unicorns aren't real? Oh no.

    12. Re:expanding on your words: by Lucractius · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Even though Rush says so much I disagree with, and makes so little logical sense, I will always have gratitude for him because he was the first media personality I ever heard throwing arguments back at liberals. He wasn't logical, and he wasn't fair, but then neither was all the liberal trash I heard and saw on nightly news and TV shows. When your team is losing because the refs keep favoring the other side, you can't help but feel grateful when a ref enters the field who makes unfair calls in your favor. Sure you would rather have all the refs be fair, but since that isn't happening, you're at least glad to have one of the refs on your side.

      Thank you for making the rest of your argument clear and not some kind of political rant back, you merely stated your position & feelings rather than attacking. Nice to see sanity prevail in politics of any kind, left or right.

      Secondly... Unfortunately the kind of "at least this ref is cheating for my team" leads to the breakdown of the game theory assumptions behind democracy. If your only happy with someone cheating for you and they are only happy when someone is cheating for them, the system breaks down through a kind of yo-yo effect between the sides involved which will typically reduce to just 2. I'm not making any kind of political statement left right up down... vote for the start button for all i care lol. I'm a 'swinging voter' but the thing is, I vote carefully considering each time. I want the fairest ref I trust not to screw me over somehow, problem is 'everyone' (not literally but in the sense that most people are voting towards their self interests) else wants the ref that cheats for their team.

      Thirdly, the second thing isnt a personal attack, i realize that your looking after your interests when you vote for the guy that cheats for you, simply because if you didnt then the other side would completely railroad you which sucks even worse for you and the 50% of the people on your side. My problem is more that it has become a matter of 'sides' in the first place. It should be 1 side... the people running the country in the best interests of its people.

      Democracy these days feels like its turned into a game of football (the type of football is not relevant in this statement)

      --
      XML - A clever joke would be here if /. didn't mangle tag brackets.
    13. Re:expanding on your words: by readin · · Score: 2

      Ok, now I'll make a somewhat snarky but also serious comment. You wrote, "i realize that your looking after your interests when you vote for the guy that cheats for you." Actually I haven't done that. Rush Limbaugh never ran for office and has never received a large number of conservative votes. Al Franken, on the other hand, who wrote they weighty political tomes "Rush Limbaugh is a Big Fat Idiot" is currently a Democratic senator.

      I too would rather we have fair refs. My cable doesn't include CNN, but from what little I've seen Anderson Cooper seems decent enough. I can't speak for many of the others because I've mostly stopped watching. When I do catch some news show - whether the traditional big 3 or one of the all news networks, it just reminds me why I stopped watching. I do listen to NPR regularly on my way to and from work, but only because the other choices are so much worse (some right wing guys who have perfected the art of being permanently indignant and resentful).

      I don't know if we've ever had a press that was unbiased and fair, but I think that is probably too much to ask. We can't expect them to completely abandon their judgment. But at least they should be working to make sure all sides of a debate have a reasonable hearing rather than trying to hide reasonable positions in order to make the other side seem like extremists. For example, on immigration, how about we hear more from the people who want to build a secure and permanent border (something that isn't just de-funded the following year) along the Mexican border and want to grant amnesty to all the illegal aliens? That is an idea that is largely ignored while NPR, Washintong Post et al. try to portray everyone as either intolerant racists or as being in favor of "comprehensive reform" (change the laws but it doesn't matter because there is no border). If you listen to them you'll hear no middle ground - which means we continue to have the problem.

      --
      I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
    14. Re:expanding on your words: by readin · · Score: 2

      Let's take a simple but core measurement like taxing and spending.

      Conservative: Someone who wants the government to tax less and spend less.

      Liberal: Someone who wants the government to tax more and spend more.



      Now look at the pattern over the last 40 years. Sometimes we tax more, sometimes we tax lesss. Tax rates go up and down. But spending only goes one way: up. In my lifetime spending has never decreased. Sometimes we have Democratic leadership that gets what it wants and we get higher taxes and higher spending. Sometimes we see compromise and get something even worse: lower taxes and higher spending. When we finally got some Republicans in control of the Congress and White House, they spent even more!

      Frankly we're fed up. We manage to get a few congressmen elected who are serious about not raising spending, and they're called "extremists". What is so extreme about asking the other side to compromise occassionally? We've compromised and compromised so that spending is outrageous. But when we ask for a compromise in return, not even lower spending but just to stop raising spending, we're called extremists. Come on - meet us half way and keep spending from growing for once. Stop calling us extremists because we're trying to hold you to an 11-89 split instead of a 10-90 split.

      For years you kick us in the head, punch is in the nose, slash our tendons, and spit in our faces. We put up a tiny hand to lessen the next blow and we're "extremists".

      Lower spending. That's it. It's not extreme. It's the perfectly normal thing you do when you're running a huge deficit. Just lower spending a bit.

      --
      I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
  30. Re:Note that their interpretation of "Blasphemy" i by Chrisq · · Score: 2

    Of course - anyone who gets offended by blasphemy only gets offended if THEIR religion is on the receiving end. You don't think that these people want to protect some animist sects in the Brazilian jungle from missionaries, do you?

    True, though there are a few people who want a law that outlaws deliberate insulting of any religions, based on the fact they can understand that others feel about their religion as they do about their own. Though I have some sympathy with this view (which is very different from what the Muslims want) I don't think its workable - to many people an expression of one faith is a direct and deliberate insult to another.

  31. yes, please by Tom · · Score: 2

    I am an Episkoposes of the POEE. Please give me a law so I can prosecute everyone who defiles our sacred number 5.

    Please?

    Also, anyone who eats hot dogs.

    --
    Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
  32. Re:Just to play Devil's Advocate... by spire3661 · · Score: 3, Informative

    Osama wasnt a civilian. He took up arms against a nation-state. That is a soldier.

    --
    Good-bye
  33. This Is How Freedom Of Religion Works by JohnPerkins · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Freedom Of Religion, for me, means I can worship Allah, Jehovah, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, etc., without you interfering in my worship.

    Freedom Of Religion, for you, means you can worship Allah, Jehovah, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, etc., without me interfering in your worship.

    Freedom Of Speech, for me, means I can say (almost*) anything, including insulting your religion.

    Freedom Of Speech, for you, means you can say (almost*) anything, including insulting my religion.

    * Exceptions for things like yelling "fire" in a theater that isn't on fire.

    When I insult your religion, I am using my freedom of speech, but I am not preventing you from practicing your religion. That is why the guy who made that anti-muslim video can make a video like that. He is exercising his freedom of speech. This does not prevent any follower of Islam from practicing their religion. Your freedom of religion affects your actions, not mine. I can stand out front of a mosque with a sign saying 'Islam is wrong,' because I am exercising my freedom of speech but I am not preventing you from entering the mosque and exercising your freedom of religion. If, on the other hand, I block the entrance to the mosque, then I would be preventing you from exercising your freedom of religion, and I would be in the wrong.

    Allah/Jehovah/etc. is not so weak that the words of a person can harm them. I think that, whatever the nature of the deity, they are probably more upset with all of the hate and pain done in their name than with the words of a person as a direct attack on them. This is what these rioters are, in effect, saying when they riot: "My god and my faith in my god are so weak that he can't take care of himself, so I have to go around killing people."

    On the other hand, if you believe that god wants you to run around rioting, killing, etc., and it's okay to do these things, then you don't get to also expect not to have your ass kicked by a superior military power. If violence is the way, then you're going to get your ass kicked and you shouldn't complain about it. If peace is the way, then you shouldn't be running around killing people. I'm not talking about whether any particular conflict is justified or not; just the internal logic of the rioters.

    All rambling aside, if there's one message I would like the muslim world to get, it would be this:

    Allah is great. He doesn't need you to run around killing people for him. He put jerks in the world to test you. Get over it, pass His test, and get on with your lives.

  34. it's not just media bias by circletimessquare · · Score: 3, Interesting

    there are a lot of moderate muslims. there is also a heck of a lot of extremist muslims. it's hard for the moderates to exercise restraint and power when they aren't actually fully in power

    it's also hard to say "calm down" when the other guy feels fully justified in putting a bullet in your head because you are not adequately devout, of the wrong sect, too western sounding/ looking, etc.

    if you want to talk media spin, here it is: when a muslim extremist kills a westerner, the western media goes apeshit. when a muslim extremist kills a moderate muslim, you don't hear about it. but eh latter happens 10-100x more than the former. because the simple truth, by orders of magnitude, is that the greatest victim of muslim extremist terrorism, is other muslims. moderate muslims. they are literally being killed off if not cowed by fear

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  35. every single country has or had laws by circletimessquare · · Score: 4, Insightful

    that basically boil down to "you have to respect me but i don't have to respect you"

    for example, the muslim world has tons of hate against judaism and christianity which isn't punished. nevermind that mobs of jews and christians aren't threatening death and destruction because of it

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  36. Faith supports evil by Cajun+Hell · · Score: 2

    Some people have a hard time wrapping their heads around the idea that religion or the gods within the religion might simply be evil by human standards. If you suggest this, they'll shrug it off saying the God works in mysterious ways and it's not for them to understand it. And yet, they are human and practice that religion. God works in mysterious ways so therefore you must work in mysterious ways too? You must practice what you know to be evil, having faith that in some demented way that human brains can't understand, it's actually secretly good?

    Maybe so. Once you open the door to faith, anything is possible. If you can believe in a god without there being any evidence, then why not believe that murder is ok, because some celestial accountant is putting into the "good" column for reasons that no jury would ever accept?

    --
    "Believe me!" -- Donald Trump
  37. Better idea... by MitchDev · · Score: 2

    Promote intelligence and logic and reason and religion will vanish...

  38. "Blasphemy laws" ARE "religious intolerance" by Rogerborg · · Score: 2

    End of retarded discussion.

    --
    If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
  39. He can go and... by jonfr · · Score: 2

    Pakistan Prime Minister Raja Pervez Ashraf can go and fuck him self in the ass. No, I am being serious. This cunt and others like him have no right on forcing others to obey by there religious rules. While the Koran forbids Muslims to draw pictures of Mohammed prophet (and warmonger of his time). It says nothing about others not being able to do so.

    Submission by fear is not something I agree with. Nobody should in fact. So PM of Pakistan can go fuck him self in the ass. Preferred on live television world wide.

  40. An eye for an eye... by xded · · Score: 2

    Are you suggesting that since in the Middle ages Christians killed in the name of God, it's ok now for Muslims to kill in the name of God? Is this your idea of religion? Is it ok for these to be the Midlle ages of Islam?

    Let's just try to do what's best for humanity already. Let's try to evolve from the dark past. Let's stop preaching ourselves ideas meant to bring order into chaos and let's try to move forward, not to grow roots in a place someone said it's good enough.

  41. Re:Blasphemy by Mike+Buddha · · Score: 2

    Blasphemy is a Victimless Crime. It's blasphemous! Crimes of blasphemy were invented by the religious to defend holy doctrines and dogmas of their religion that were incapable of standing up to scrutiny. Besides, you can't offend what doesn't exist

    Yeah, because Chrstians aren't real! Good thinkin', brainiac.

    --
    by Mike Buddha -- Someday the mountain might get him, but the law never will.
  42. Once again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    I'm the Prophet Mohammed. I fuck camels!
            /
    \O/
      |
    / \

  43. Remember the Bamian Buddha, by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 3, Informative
    Those were huge statues of Buddha. Some 200 or 300 feet tall. Carved into niches of rock face of a hill. Something like Petra. They were in Afghanistan. They were 1500 years old. And the Taliban decided to dynamite them.

    Government of Sri Lanka begged the Taliban government to let them carve and carry off the whole statue if they did not want it in their Islamic land. Japan offered to cover the whole statue behind a wall of concrete if they did not want to see it.

    The Taliban refused all such overtures, and dynamited those historical figures. Where were all these Muslims who demand the world respect their prophet? Would this new blasphemy law prevent Saudi Government from disfiguring images of Hindu/Buddist/Sikh/Jain Gods or holymen found in books and magazines carried by workers traveling into Saudi Arabia?

    The double standards from the fanatics is understandable. But the double standards from those claiming to be moderates is infuriating. I am with Bill Maher in this. All religions are not the same. No other religion demands the right impose its rules on people who do not belong to their religion. All the moderates talk in English to the west explaining why the fanatics are outraged. Yes, the fanatics will be always outraged. It is the job of the moderates to control the damned fanatics. If you can't, stop demanding to be treated like other religions.

    Well, the Bamian Buddha is powerful. He got rid of Taliban within a year of His statute being demolished. Buddha will rid Afghanistan of Islam in due course.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
  44. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  45. Heinlein... by dlingman · · Score: 2

    Of all the strange crimes that humanity has legislated out of nothing, blasphemy is the most amazing - with obscenity and indecent exposure fighting it out for second and third place. [Robert Heinlein, Notebooks of Lazarus Long]

  46. where's the enlightenment? by ubermiester · · Score: 2

    I wonder if people in the middle east realize how steadily their image as pre-enlightenment zealots with no interest in modernization is solidifying in the West. There was once a valid critique that said the West just didn't understand the Mid-East and that it was judging it in a relativistic way. But now that the West has been paying attention for a while, those early truisms seem downright sage-like.

    "Experts" continue to offer somber explanations for such violent outbursts, saying that their youth is feeling a profound humiliation and that they are simply taking it out on the Western boogieman their parents and grandparents were taught to fear. This may be true on some level. But at what point do they take the responsibility for their own development. How long before they realize that whether or not you believe someone else is holding you back, you have to move forward on your own.

    The "Arab Spring" seemed to offer a tantalizing bit of hope for a change from within, but if the religious right in the US is any indication, there is no reasoning with a zealot. And when the government of such a large and strategically important nation like Pakistan calls for worldwide censorship to avoid further offending an already humiliated culture, where is the path to change?

  47. Re:Just to play Devil's Advocate... by DigiShaman · · Score: 3, Informative

    Functionally he was a soldier, but per the 3rd Geneva Convention article 4 he wasn't as he didn't fulfill all the requirements to meet the definition.

    4.1.2 Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, provided that they fulfill all of the following conditions:
    that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
    that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance (there are limited exceptions to this among countries who observe the 1977 Protocol I);
    that of carrying arms openly;
    that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

    --
    Life is not for the lazy.
  48. Let's make a deal by Quila · · Score: 2

    We'll illegalize *all* religious intolerance, period. That means a Catholic church and a synagogue are free to be built in Mecca, people of those faiths free to enter the city, live there and attend their services. That means evangelical Christians are free to roam throughout Muslims countries and try to convert Muslims. They and converted Muslims will be without fear of legal or extra-legal punishment. Jews get to rebuild their first Temple, the likely location of which is right next to the Al-Aqsa Mosque on Temple Mount in a currently empty area.

    But you know this won't happen, the tolerance goes only one way.

  49. He can demand all he wants by zrbyte · · Score: 2

    It's not like he's not allowed to express his opinion.

  50. Religions are generally false by Tony · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The parent said "religions are always false". There was no need for me to hash through the possible definitions that may lend it credence, it was only necessary for me to provide a single definition which proved it inaccurate. That is why I chose that definition.

    Ah, yes. Argument by dictionary. That's an excellent strategy: it allows you to avoid the substance of an argument by focusing instead on specific word-use.

    Let's try this instead: no religion has been shown to be true. In fact, no religion has demonstrated a basis by which its truth-claims can be evaluated. Religion has no epistemic footing.

    You indicate this yourself when you mentioned, "There are over 4,200 religions in the world." (This ignores the various nuanced schisms that exist in many of those 4,200 religions, but we'll let that slide for the moment.) This number indicates there is no real epistemic foundation on which to build a reliable religion. Basically, it's all just gut-feeling, social mechanisms for control, pareidolia, and a desire to know things that are effectively unknowable (or, without answer because the question is bad, such as, "Why are we here?")

    So, yes, I think I can say that all religions are wrong, even if they are right in some details. It'd be like the claim, "The earth is warming." That is a correct statement of fact. However, one can be wrong in stating it: "The earth is warming because Hell is getting closer," would simply be wrong.

    Religious statements are effectively without basis. Every religious statement that is not grounded in observation and logic (basically, science) can be summed up thusly: "I believe this thing, but I have no basis to assume this thing is true." Asserting a thing as true without a solid basis in observable reality is worse than being wrong. At best it is misleading. At worst, it papers over ignorance, effectively vetoing reason and inquiry.

    --
    Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
  51. What should happen by StillNeedMoreCoffee · · Score: 2

    Is that the UN passes legislation that supports freedom of speech even when it offends some religious group. How else will autocratic governments and religions have the necessary critical review that would allow them to stand or fall on their own merits, which is the necessity and power of free speech to maintain free societies.

  52. First Amendment protects both religion and speech by DavidHumus · · Score: 2

    I've sometimes wondered if the US Constitution's First Amendment groups together freedom of religious practice (in part by _prohibiting_ Congress from passing a law respecting an establishment of religion) and freedom of speech because of the Founding Fathers' awareness of the scourge of blasphemy laws which were in effect in much of Europe at that time.

  53. THIS by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 2

    it's a feeble God who needs armed men to defend himself.

    Can we get a Kickstarter going to fund this writ large in geosynchronous orbit, please?

  54. The problem with words.. by gmuslera · · Score: 2

    .. is that don't have the same meaning for everyone, everywhere, and thats the field where UN plays. What is blasphemy for ones could be holy word for others, what is "common sense" for ones could be a sin for others. Even claiming owning the truth, what is right or wrong (as most religions do) could be blasphemy for others, and binding governments with religions is a dangerous mix for that reason too.

  55. Muslim blasphemy works only one way by Vince6791 · · Score: 2

    I think there is part of the brain that the supernatural, deity worshiping, resides in. As a child I believed in the supernatural, alternate universes, life after death, etc... But I grew up and realized you have only 1 life so don't FUCK IT UP. I also had compulsive disorder issues.

    The Blasphemy works only 1 way and it's the Islamic way, well it's today's Islamic way. Only Muslims can discriminate, rape, murder, insult other non-muslims because they are God's chosen people. This was true with the Jews in the beginning. Basically, they are behaving like they are in kindergarten or worse high school. Look at the shit muslims have done to copts in egypt, they burned their churches and sometimes burned the copts themselves to death, so you must understand why this coptic christian made the movie.

    In evolution age, we humans, are more like 5 year olds mentally, we still need to evolve. Maybe in a thousand or 2 thousand years humans will look back at this time line and see what a bunch of fucking, evil, mass murdering fuck heads we were. Some of us Atheist might not believe in a deity but there are some who actually worship government or celebrities which is pretty damn sad.

  56. Pakistan - a nation of hateful intolerants by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If you do not know much about Pakistan, the following story may of help ---

    A Christian girl with mental retardation was accused of blasphemy to Islam, by her next door neighbor, coincidently, happened to be an Islamic Imam.

    According to that Islamic Imam, that Christian girl had burned pages from the so-called "Holy Quran" - and because of that, the girl was jailed on the charge of "Blasphemy" - and if convicted, can be put to death.

    Immediately the whole nation of Pakistan was up in arm. Muslims threatening to kill the minority Christians, Christian churches were attacked and burned, and entire Christian community had to be vacated due to the threats.

    After much twists and turns, it was reported that the "burned pages of Quran" was the making of that so-called "Islamic Imam".

    That "Islamic Imam" was the one who framed that Christian girl, by putting burnt pages of Quran into the girl's bag.

    And because Pakistan is a nation filled with hatreds, the minority Christians are still being threatened, and that Christian girl is still under the official charge of "Blasphemy", although a court granted her a bail.

    That Christian girl still face immense danger. She could still be killed by the angry Islamic mob, or the Pakistan authority itself.

    A nation like that wants the world to follow suit?

    --
    Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    1. Re:Pakistan - a nation of hateful intolerants by DirtyLiar · · Score: 2

      Not to diminish what happened here, but WTF would a non-Islamic family want to live there in the first place?

      Stupid reasons like: Place of their birth. Land of their forefathers. Where their friends are. Where their community is. Where their loved ones are. Where their lives are. etc.

      You know, total wackjobs.

      --

      THINK! It's patriotic

    2. Re:Pakistan - a nation of hateful intolerants by RockDoctor · · Score: 2
      What makes you think that they've got any realistic choice about which country they live in? If you're an un-skilled labourer, try getting a settlement visa for any other country in which you don't already have relatives who are willing to act as your guarantors of good behaviour, and to support you while you become economically productive.

      I've got the whole of Europe to choose where to live in ; as a half-globe trotting specialist in the oil industry, I anticipate working on any continent at the drop of a hat. I've got enough languages and nouce to not have any real concern about being dropped in any airport in the world with a contact phone number and address to go and find my way to the client. I seriously doubt that a settlement visa request from me for most countries in the world would be turned down (though Spain, Canada and Oceania are the only credible ones where I might actually apply).

      Don't expect the freedoms that we expect in the first world to apply to the overwhelming majority of our conspecifics.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    3. Re:Pakistan - a nation of hateful intolerants by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 2

      Before Islam invaded Pakistan, people there were of the Hindu and Buddhism religion.

      Christianity had reached Pakistan (and Iran and Afghanistan and India) way before that pedophile "profart" was born. One of the 12 disciples had gone to that region to spread the Word, and was later put to death by a local chieftain.

      --
      Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    4. Re:Pakistan - a nation of hateful intolerants by Arker · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What I took away from the story was that the authorities in Pakistan are actually deserving of a little faith. This so-called Imam, representing the powerful majority faith, set this poor girl up and in the sort of country the pakistan-bashers paint, it would have worked. It didnt. That Imam, last I heard, is the focus of police investigation, and is likely to be arrested, tried, and convicted of the crime of blasphemy for which he attempted to frame the girl.

      If that's how it works out, then it's hard for me to see how the Pakistani authorities could possibly have handled it better.

      --
      =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
      Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
  57. And they wonder... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    As these idiots continue to make fools of themselves they wonder why the world doesn't take them seriously.

    If these idiots were not so dangerous they would be laughable.

    I can't speak for the politicians... but the man on street in the "West" has just about had enough of "Islam".

    At one time Islam was viewed in a sympathetic light. Now... sympathy has turned to contempt.