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Apple iPad Mini Could Complicate Things For Windows 8 Tablets
Nerval's Lobster writes "Current rumor suggests that Apple is gearing up to unveil its iPad Mini Oct. 17, with invitations to media arriving Oct. 10. That's according to Fortune, which obtained the information from an unnamed Apple investor who, in turn, heard those dates from other unnamed sources. While that attribution might prove a bit too vaporous for some people, it does align with earlier reports from AllThingsD that Apple is planning to reveal a smaller iPad sometime in October. If those rumors prove accurate, the unveiling of an iPad Mini in that timeframe could prove very bad news for the upcoming Windows 8 tablets. (Gizmodo offers a pretty complete rumor rundown on the iPad Mini's possible features here.) Unlike the traditional PC market, Microsoft doesn't dominate the market for mobile-device operating systems. Windows 7 tablets never gained much of a toehold among tablet users, who prefer iPads and Android-based devices by wide margins. When it comes to Windows 8 (and Windows RT, the version of next-generation Windows for ARM architecture), Microsoft is starting out as the underdog."
so?
From what I've seen, Windows 8 tablets are focused on the 9-12 inch segment. I'd say the real threat posed by the iPad Mini is against the smaller stuff, like the small Kindle Fire (HD or not), Nexus 7 and similar hardware.
There is absolutely no story here. Nothing to even connect Microsoft and Apple.
"Competition from X could be bad for Y".
What a fucking wank fest this site is. Anyways, flame on, dopes.
Oh, wait...
I should be able to mod down the story so nobody has to read this garbage.
Would it be poor taste to sneak a large Steve Jobs poster onto the outside of Apple's release venue, with his quotes on 7 inch tablets?
"If you take an iPad and hold it upright in portrait view and draw an imaginary horizontal line halfway down the screen, the screens on the seven-inch tablets are a bit smaller than the bottom half of the iPad display. This size isn't sufficient to create great tablet apps in our opinion.
Well, one could increase the resolution of the display to make up for some of the difference. It is meaningless, unless your tablet also includes sandpaper, so that the user can sand down their fingers to around one quarter of the present size. Apple's done extensive user-testing on touch interfaces over many years, and we really understand this stuff. There are clear limits of how close you can physically place elements on a touch screen before users cannot reliably tap, flick, or pinch them. This is one of the key reasons we think the 10-inch screen size is the minimum size required to create great tablet apps."
people that "want" to buy a tablet based on a specific software, i.e. Droid, IOS or win8 not included. Since they will buy what they actually want.
If the rumours are true and judging by the lack of innovation with the iPhone 5 it seems likely that the iPad Mini won't be anything special. Gizmodo seems to be expecting a sub-HD screen, the same as the iPhone, and fairly pedestrian hardware specs. iOS 6 is already out so we know what to expect from that.
Their competitors are doing things like split screen multitasking at a price point it seems unlikely Apple will be able to match (the iPod Touch is $300).
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Where's my ~14" A4/Letter sized tablet? Give me a full sized page of text please.
The[sic] there's that name. Makes me think of urinate every time someone says it.
Probably best if I not tell you what I think when I hear the word 'pad'. -- Some woman
#fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
I would argue that it does considerably more than simply complicate things. The iPad mini will show that Apple can create and expand upon a range of high quality devices on what is essentially a single platform. It's all about the ecosystem that you can buy today vs. Microsoft's ever persistent promises of a better tomorrow. While that may be an oversimplification, most end users just want something that works, looks great, and makes their lives easier. Currently, I don't see that with Windows outside of the traditional desktop experience.
Didn't Steve Jobs say publicly that a tablet any smaller than the iPad is useless as a tablet and if its bigger than the iPhone its useless as a phone, aiming directly at the 7" Android tablets hitting the market?
Always nice to know that Apple plant's stories (or exposes the media bias). I love how everytime some big iPad killer is announced, *someone* posts a story about the iPad mini. Remember the Nexus 7 launch? One week later there was a iPad mini that proved to be vaporware. At least this time it's BEFORE the launch of Win 8, so we'll see it was just a plant story of vaporware.
Well, if you're going to shorten it, you can borrow W8 from me, that's what I've been calling it.
Free Martian Whores!
Microsoft and Android will have to fight a serious uphill battle against iPad. I have an iPad and love it to read material but as content creator (Even simple emails), it sucks. The market is wide open to fill the content creation gap.
... quietly, somewhere at the Apple offices all records of and references to the iPod Touch are being destroyed.
Fifty watts per channel, baby cakes.
Absolutely. And I'd like a computer that can be used as a desktop when it's appropriate, and a tablet or (better, given how big most "serious" tablets are) phone at other times.
I'm hoping Ubuntu is able to partner with CyanogenMod or some similar group at some point to put out their Ubuntu for Android thing.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
"people that "want" to buy a tablet based on a specific software, i.e. Droid, IOS or win8 not included. Since they will buy what they actually want."
my original comment was made for general consumer's purchasing stand point, since the article insinuated that win8 buyers will switch to iPad.
you are entirely correct in saying that "being heavily invested in those other ecosystems" and that is the real issue MS has to deal with, late as they are to the market.
A lack of apps buggers up the ARM version and a radical interface change isn't going to help sell the x86 desktop version.
>>>What a stupid thing to say. I'm more likely to buy a Windows 8 tablet over the two current leaders as iOS is garbage (really, I don't know how anyone puts up with it), and I don't care for Android (I don't like the clunky UI and hate the pitiful dev tools). I seriously doubt that I'm unique.
Probably not unique given your current location (Washington, near Seattle, Microsoft cubicle). ;-)
My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
But I don't want to W8. I want it NOW.
(I actually installed W8 on a Virtual Machine to try it out. Not too pleased with the Mobile interface on my big monitor.)
[John]
Shit better not happen!
Between us, I suspect that whatever Apple chooses to do will wipe the floor with whatever Windows 8 ends up being, but I have a hard time making myself care either way.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
iPad Mini market is clearly for home users looking for an entertainment platform.
Windows 8 tablets are aimed squarely at the enterprise crowd.
Simply put, iPad has had a slow adoption into the enterprise world due to a real lack of compatibility with the Microsoft systems STILL IN HEAVY usage in enterprise. People can shit on Microsoft all they want for no longer capturing the consumer market, but Microsoft is still king in enterprise. People bring an iPad into the office expecting a large amount of compromise in functionality, and tolerate it because they are driving to finding a way to make iPad work in the office.
However it is a far more natural progression for enterprise users to get a Windows tablet the blends seamlessly with their office environment. In fact I suspect that WIndows 8 Tablets will truly mark the end of the "PC" era as enterprise users swap out desktops for tablets. The only reason for PC's to exist today is mostly to support enterprise workstations.
iPad Mini is not an enterprise product.
Sure if MIcrosoft is hoping to open up their market share in consumer electronics, Windows 8 will find it hard to compete with any iDevice, but even then there will be more variety and price points of Windows 8 tablets then Apple products, as has been historically for the entire history of Microsoft and Apple. Once again Microsoft is entering a market where Apple makes expensive niche products and Microsoft will focus on more value mainstream products. Just that this time around Apple's "niche" is significantly larger.
Don't be mistaken, Apple is VERY worried about the release of a Microsoft tablet product, just like they are worried about Android phones. Remember that for every iSheeple that must have everything Apple, there many more people that can't stand Apple or at least want to have more value conscious choices. Microsoft is poised to offer an alternative that is more easily adoptable by enterprise users and more attractive to value conscious consumers in the long run.
I haven't thought of anything clever to put here, but then again most of you haven't either.
> oh, and a bunch of "we always did it this way" guys would get fired and fade out of the picture.
That's what Microsoft needs to be relevant again, but I really don't see it happening. There'd have to be a significant shake-up in upper management to make it happen. And the problem there is, the people doing the shaking are the people who need to be shook.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
Win 8 tablet: apps to use, plus a *real* OS when I need it. Tired of using bullshit dataviz office on the go? Fire up MS Office 2010. Don't want to play bullshit touch games? Fire up Dead Space, Mass Effect, etc.
Please explain why that approach will suddenly work now when it failed for about a decade straight before Apple introduced the iPad.
iPad: iOS apps. Limited feature
It's called "focused" and is why Apple has sold tens of millions to date. Odd how people appreciate well written software that tries to solve a specific problem.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
FTA: ...Microsoft is starting out as the underdog."
That's a strange way to put it.
More accurate would be "...Microsoft has been unsuccessful in its more than 15 years of attempts at the mobile platform, despite its dominance in other sectors during that time."
Microsoft's efforts will at least accomplish something worthwhile: force Apple and Google to recognize the need for real applications like LibreOffice on tablets as opposed to just forcing users to accept a steady diet of media consumption and lightweight apps.
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
If in fact Apple does release a smaller iPad then I think this will actually be quite significant with respect to MS and Win8. Given the popularity of other smaller tablets released recently such as the Kindle and the Nexus it shows that the market is moving (or rather expanding) to accommodate this new form factor. But it doesn't look to me like Win8 will play nice at this scale (just my opinion, I could be wrong). So just as MS finally get's something possibly credible onto the market the market has shifted to something else.
So it could be that Apple still doesn't believe the smaller form factor is better than the 10" size but is happy to play along as it would quite aggravate MS.
Regarding Jobs' comments regarding the 7" screens, I believe he may have been right at the time but our UI design skills for tablets have improved now which may mitigate those points. The industry moves so quickly that a lot of comments many people make are true at the time given what was viable then but become less relevant as we learn more.
Ryans Tutorials - A collection of technology tutorials.
Office on Arm is a lie. Microsoft will never be able to port the full office suite to arm because the codebase is so bloated with decades-old windows specific bloat.
How do you know?
And why would "Windows-specific bloat" preclude porting something to ARM? So long as Windows itself runs on ARM, why would the app care about the architecture in the slightest?
The alternative? One of those new custom "windows only" intel SoCs. - These tablets will never sell well. They'll cost 899, weigh twice as much, have a boatload of carryover pc-isims that will make them useless as actual tablets, and will run maybe an hour and a half before running down their battery. And intel based windows tablet will never be as functional as an arm based one.
Did you actually look at the published specs? The Clover Field one that Asus has announced weighs 680 grams (for comparison, iPad is 650 g), and they declare 10 hours of battery life, same as for their ARM devices. You can say it's all lies, but we've already seen Intel (Medfield) phones running Android in production, and their battery life is, again, pretty much the same as ARM.
Not on the tablet, for the tablet.
Required reading for internet skeptics
Do you think office is written in x86 assembly or something? haha.
I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
And MS doesn't give a shit. License costs are license costs no matter what the OS is doing.
Not much of the world is particularly 'creative' - but as long as they have a checkbook, then Ballmer is a happy camper.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
Most of those Microsoft Windows based PCs are actually doing boring tasks like cash registers, data entry, surveillance, systems control, etc. They aren't being used by people for more creative tasks.
Y'know, I gotta admit, I wonder about this.
Apple sold a bunch of iPads to United Airlines to replace a bunch of flight logs, maps, etc. My local sustainable seafood place uses an iPad for a cash register. A local hip tea place has iPads mounted on the wall so you you can sit and drink your tea while surfing the web. I've heard of them being used by wait-people at restaurants, though haven't encountered any.
So how many iPads are actually being used by consumers and how many of them are being used as one-tricky-pony gadgets in a business. And if it's bad that Windows-based PCs are doing boring tasks like being cash registers, why is it not bad that iPads get used the same way?
I could also remark on the companies that have iMacs for the receptionist because they look cool...
Once again, this wasn't the approach with Tablet PC, because Tablet PC did not have a touch centric UI. Even for third party apps - there was simply no framework they could use, other than doing things completely from scratch, from ground up. What's so hard to understand about that?
It works better this time around because Win8 does have a touch centric UI. And it comes with a framework (several, actually) to enable developers to write their own apps that work well with touch, and blend into that new UI. Exactly as iPad did - except without completely exorcising all the old stuff.
Don't forget all the developers who need to own all the iOS devices their app is going out on, for testing. Multiples if they want to test multiple versions of iOS.
-]Phreak Out[-
Then you haven't been following this very well. WOA is not full Windows, it does not have all the Win32 API, it does not have all the Windows features, in particular it only has the 'Metro' UI and not the UI of Windows 7*.
I have been following this well enough - certainly closer than you, since I'm well aware that Windows on ARM does have the classic desktop ("UI of Windows 7").
What it does is specifically preclude third-party programs from running on that desktop, by checking signatures in the binaries. So for you, yes, you cannot just recompile stuff, you have to rewrite them as Windows Store apps. Your claim about Win32 API is the same thing - yes, it is severely restricted, in Store apps. Not on the desktop.
So, yes, WoA comes with a desktop, complete with a taskbar etc; with Explorer, cmd.exe, PowerShell and desktop IE. And Office.
Much of Office is legacy assembler, probably not well understood even by MS.
And your source for that claim would be what, exactly?
Coincidentally, you might also want to come up with an explanation of how - if "much of Office is legacy assembler" - it has a native x64 version since Office 2010.
NOR DO ALL THE THIRD PARTY WINDOWS APPS.
Really? Have you even looked at what's already in Windows Store, for starters?
Anyway, when iPhone came out, there were zero third party apps for it, of any kind. Based on your very argument, this should have doomed it as a platform.
Anyway, when iPhone came out, there were zero third party apps for it, of any kind.
Since that is utterly irrelevant to Windows 8, why do you even bother to mention that?
There wasn't that same problem in the mobile space at all. Palm had been successful, Blackberry had been successful. It's not like the PDA and smartphone were not working before.
But the tablet market no-one before Apple could make work, and Microsoft tried for years.
The thing that makes your comment really REALLY off-kilter is that if you actually go to apply Apple's start to to the topic at hand, tablets - Apple launched the iPad not just running the iOS library, which really didn't matter that much, but around 3,000 applications built SPECIFICALLY for the iPad.
THAT matters. A LOT.
Ok, now I give you the last response but honestly, think about the topic before responding.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Parent has it right, but there's even more to it than that. For one thing, it's bloody obvious that WOA / Windows RT has a full Win32 API; what the hell do you (the GP) think that Explorer and IE10 and cmd.exe and Task Manager and Office RT (or whatever it's called) and all those other hundreds of Win32 binary programs that ship on it are running against? In fact, I'm quite sure there's nothing that actually stops Windows Store apps from using it, except
A) they run with extremely restricted permissions, so many of the APIs won't do any good
B) much like the way that Apple rejects apps that call restricted APIs on iOS, the Windows Store app approval process will check the APIs that an app uses.
Also, aside from the UI, Office these days is pretty much identical between the Windows and OS X versions. That implies that not only is it free of "decades-old windows specific bloat" (as the GGGP claimed) but that much of it isn't even dependent on Win32 (the UI obviously is).
There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
Perhaps she meant this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsjU0K8QPhs
Jobs always talked out of both sides of his face. Him saying 'never will' meant 'absolutely will'.
The only consistent thing that Jobs did was treat people like dirt. Karma took care of that.
Do you know anyone that knows anything about phones who owns a Windows phone?
If you think someone isn't free to have a different definition of "freedom" you may be a tyrant.
Maybe the market for apps has changed slightly since the iPhone came out? I can't think of any possible cause this for this but when I do I'll definitely report it back to you.
If you think someone isn't free to have a different definition of "freedom" you may be a tyrant.
why is it not bad that iPads get used the same way?
Maybe because the users don't hate them as much?
If you think someone isn't free to have a different definition of "freedom" you may be a tyrant.
I'd rather W8 until at least SP1 (assuming I liked Windows). Historically, early releases of Windows have been buggy and virus-prone. Kind of like you don't want to install a x.0 of anything, whether MS, Apple, or Linux or their apps.
I do have to say that W7 isn't too bad, it came on the notebook I bought last year and I still haven't installed Linux on it yet.
Free Martian Whores!
The market has indeed changed a lot since then. It has changed even more since Tablet PC. So did the offering.
What a stupid thing to say. I'm more likely to buy a Windows 8 tablet over the two current leaders as iOS is garbage (really, I don't know how anyone puts up with it), and I don't care for Android (I don't like the clunky UI and hate the pitiful dev tools). I seriously doubt that I'm unique.
So iOS is garbage and Andoid is lousy too... makes you wonder why Microsoft is a total non-entity in this market space they've been in for 15 years.
What's wrong with Windows 8 that you think customers will run screaming from the platform? If iOS, Android, and Windows 8 were the only three options, there's no real reason to go with the current market leaders other than being heavily invested in those other ecosystems.
No compelling reason to pick one up over iOS/Android (yes yes, of course YOU and the 53 other people that agree are sure to cause a day 1 sales boom).
As for ecosystem investment, well DUH you could have said the same about any previous Microsoft OS versus anything else - discounting the massive advantages of the ecosystem, there's no real reason to go with Windows over BeOS, or Windows of OS/2, or Windows over Linux, etc.
So the developers *HAVE TO WRITE NEW APPS*, just like they did/do for iPad/iPhone.
BTW, you say "except without completely exorcising all the old stuff", but aren't the two IEs (Metro & Windows) completely different apps? I thought reviews have said they are (instead of one app that can accommodate both UIs).. That shows even more that developers have to write new apps⦠so how is having the non-touch-optimized (and often unusable with fingers) apps around going to help?
BTW, you say "except without completely exorcising all the old stuff", but aren't the two IEs (Metro & Windows) completely different apps? I thought reviews have said they are (instead of one app that can accommodate both UIs).. That shows even more that developers have to write new apps⦠so how is having the non-touch-optimized (and often unusable with fingers) apps around going to help?
Non-touch-optimizes apps are not unusable with fingers. They're hard to use, yet, but having an app to do something that's hard to use beats not having an app at all. Also don't forget that most of Win8 devices are convertible - so you use them as a tablet normally, but you dock them to a keyboard (and USB mouse or trackpad or whatever) to work - and then suddenly all those old apps are not only perfectly usable, they're actually more productive. Office would be a prime example of that.
But, yes, developers have to write new apps if they want them to be usable in touch mode. Which is why success or failure of the platform will be largely determined by how many app authors can be enticed to do so. However, the availability of desktop apps for "productivity mode" or as a temporary workaround (esp. where the equivalent functionality is outright unavailable on iOS - e.g. emulators like DosBox, or old games, some one-off unmantained legacy software), is also a factor. How important it is, naturally, depends on what you are going to use the device for. I would expect Office to be the one that's useful to most people.
With respect to IE being completely different app, this is actually not the case, and it's trivially seen in Task Manager. It's the same process in both cases, iexplore.exe. However, this is a special arrangement for browsers only - they are the only class of apps that can be a single binary that is context-aware of whether it runs in Metro or not (and is not constrained by the sandbox even in Metro - so that e.g. your desktop and your metro browsers have the same bookmarks, history etc). This mechanism is available to third parties, which is how e.g. Chrome provides both desktop and Metro facets when running on Win8 today. However, on ARM, only Microsoft-signed binaries and packages can run on desktop in the first place, and so this mechanism is only used by IE there (which was the source of complaints from other browser manufacturers that you may have seen a Slashdot story about before). Anyway, since this only applies to browsers, it isn't relevant when discussing apps in general, and you can simplify to "developers have to write a new separate app" in most cases.
I wasn't actually referring to ARM.. I meant ANY app.. if Word for example runs in both (I seem to remember it does), then if one app can handle both UIs in one app _might_ be advantageous to having two separate apps.
(I can also imagine it might be better having two completely separate binaries with shared libraries instead.. it would require less/no Desktop/Metro mode checks so the version for each UI could be smaller.)
I was not specifically referring to ARM, either (except for the part where third party apps can't run on the desktop on ARM - and this also applies to hybrid desktop/Metro apps like IE).
Word does not run on both, it only has a desktop version. Curiously enough, it is actually touch optimized (e.g. you can scroll by swiping, and zoom via pinch-to-zoom or double tapping), and it makes all UI elements - like Ribbon buttons - a tad bigger when you only have touch and no mouse, but it's still a windowed desktop app with all that entails. So it's usable as a viewer even when you only have touch and no mouse, but editing would be a chore until you get keyboard and some more precise pointing device (trackpad, mouse, stylus...). Ditto for all other Office stuff.
Anyway, in practice even when it's a single app, you still have a lot of different code, because the UI just looks and works completely different, because of different expectations on either side of the divide. After all, Metro is not just a different theme for widgets, it's a very different design philosophy in general, and there are constraints that come with it - for example, only a single window (allways fullscreen) and no other windows, MDI or dialogs (modal or otherwise) except for simple yes/no prompts. So basically, if you have proper model/view separation - MVP or whatever - your model could be shared, but your two views would be completely different, and the only check you'd run would be at process startup when you look at the context and decide which root view to show. So there isn't really a significant difference between having two different apps, and one hybrid app. The real difference is that hybrid apps are not sandboxed as much as Metro-only apps - hence why hybrid mode is restricted to browsers, since you pretty much always want to have your default browser provide both desktop and Metro experience, and share user data between the two.