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Earthquakes Correlated With Texan Fracking Sites

eldavojohn writes "A recent peer reviewed paper and survey by Cliff Frohlich of the University of Texas' Institute for Geophysics reveals a correlation between an increase in earthquakes and the emergence of fracking sites in the Barnett Shale, Texas. To clarify, it is not the actual act of hydrofracking that induces earthquakes, but more likely the final process of injecting wastewater into the site, according to Oliver Boyd, a USGS seismologist. Boyd said, 'Most, if not all, geophysicists expect induced earthquakes to be more likely from wastewater injection rather than hydrofracking. This is because the wastewater injection tends to occur at greater depth, where earthquakes are more likely to nucleate. I also agree [with Frohlich] that induced earthquakes are likely to persist for some time (months to years) after wastewater injection has ceased.' Frohlich added, 'Faults are everywhere. A lot of them are stuck, but if you pump water in there, it reduces friction and the fault slips a little. I can't prove that that's what happened, but it's a plausible explanation.' In the U.S. alone this correlation has been noted several times."

259 comments

  1. Oh - FRACKING by jasnw · · Score: 4, Funny

    For a minute there I thought this was a gratuitous shot at The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas.

    1. Re:Oh - FRACKING by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1, Funny

      The Lone Battlestar State?

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    2. Re:Oh - FRACKING by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Peer review of correlation. Wow. :-)

      Fracking probably accelerates seismic disturbance. But I just can't help thinking of yesterday's discussion thread: http://tech.slashdot.org/story/12/10/02/1930257/the-history-of-correlation-does-not-imply-causation

      "Yep! These sure appear to be co-incident, according to the data!"

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    3. Re:Oh - FRACKING by ceoyoyo · · Score: 2

      You think maybe earthquakes cause frakking? Or perhaps an oil company exec's decisions cause both frakking AND earthquakes?

    4. Re:Oh - FRACKING by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 3, Funny

      The Lone Battlestar State?

      Meh. That joke was olmos funny.

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    5. Re:Oh - FRACKING by SecurityTheatre · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In many cases, there are important metrics called the "strength of correlation". This is an important consideration when determining a causation. Additionally, there is the necessity of determining alternative causes. For example, when a school does better on some sort of testing after several teachers are fired, it COULD be because those teachers sucked that bad, or it could be directly related to the change in morale with the other teachers, or it could even be related to a change in management style, or a change in classroom size, or any number of other factors.

      When one considers that a series of earthquakes are seen that correlate with fracking sites (biggest earthquakes ever recorded, always within 2miles of the site in multiple sites), there is precious little else to consider as likely alternatives other than a very unlikely set of happenstance or coincidence.

      It's certainly possible that it's a coincidence, but a strong correlation tends to indicate that this is not the case. Understanding statistics at a deep level will ehlp you understand this more.

      ALL surveys show a correlation. Inferring a causation is simply trying to eliminate as many other co-correlations as possible and demonstrating that the original correlation holds up even when other possible causes are removed.

      Can you think of other causes for unusually strong earthquakes happening to cluster around fracking sites?

    6. Re:Oh - FRACKING by sjames · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Correlation doesn't imply causation, but it often points at it while waggling it's eyebrows meaningfully.

      Coupled with other things we know it sure suggests that we should be taking a careful look for causation.

    7. Re:Oh - FRACKING by deesine · · Score: 3, Informative

      The other possible causes are faults.

      You seem not to have read the last sentence of the abstract. Allow me: "Testing this hypothesis would require identifying geographic regions where there is interpreted subsurface structure information available to determine whether there are faults near seismically active and seismically quiescent injection wells. "

      --
      damaged by dogma
    8. Re:Oh - FRACKING by AK+Marc · · Score: 2

      Then you believe smoking to be safe? After all, the only evidence against smoking is correlation, and since that does not imply causation, then there's no evidence whatsoever that smoking causes cancer or other respiratory problems.

      Correlation *does* imply causation. It just doesn't prove it. In many cases, the correlated act was caused by the other. In others, they are correlated because a third, previously unknown, cause caused both. But again, there is a causal link, just not directly.

      Correlation doesn't prove causation, but it's usually significant, and dismissing it as "just correlation" is as intellectually correct as dismissing proper trials and experiments as "just data, not proof".

    9. Re:Oh - FRACKING by Bob-taro · · Score: 1

      Well, how strong is the correlation? FTA:

      Frohlich analyzed 67 earthquakes recorded between November 2009 and September 2011 in a 43.5-mile (70 kilometers) grid covering northern Texas' Barnett Shale formation. He found that all 24 of the earthquakes with the most reliably located epicenters originated within 2 miles (3.2 km) of one or more injection wells for wastewater disposal.

      So, how much of the 43 mile grid is within 2 miles of an injection well? If it's near 36%(24/67) this proves nothing, right?

      Do earthquakes cause frakking? I don't know, maybe "imminent earthquake sites" are likely to be good frakking sites.

      --
      Prov 9:8 Do not rebuke mockers or they will hate you; rebuke the wise and they will love you.
    10. Re:Oh - FRACKING by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Can you think of other causes for unusually strong earthquakes happening to cluster around fracking sites?

      One possibility (and this is knowing very little about fracking, so I don't know if this actually makes sense) would be that necessary traits of good fracking sites are themselves indicative of higher natural earthquake likelihood. In other words, fracking tends to be easier - and therefore done more often - in places where more earthquakes happen.

    11. Re:Oh - FRACKING by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      "Imply" as used in that phrase is used in its strict sense of logical implication - A implies B if B is always true whenever A is true. Obviously, in this sense, correlation does not imply causation - if two things correlate (A is true), it does not necessary follow that there is a causative link between them (B is true).

    12. Re:Oh - FRACKING by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or, the areas that make the best fracking sites are also prone to more frequent or severe earthquakes. It may be some attribute of the location that causes both, or it may be the earthquakes themselves that improve its frackability

    13. Re:Oh - FRACKING by DeadCatX2 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It's likely true that good fracking sites would be located in earthquake prone areas. However, what if you can show that the average number of earthquakes has gone up after fracking as compared to before?

      --
      :(){ :|:& };:
    14. Re:Oh - FRACKING by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      It isn't used as a strictly technical term. It's used to lie. "Imply" in common language means "hint" not "prove". Mixing common language in a common-language article on a technical subject (with technical terms that have incompatible definitions included as well) is ripe for disaster.

      I don't know what you think it means. I don't care what you think it means. The meaning of the word is in what the people who hear it think it means. And that's "hint at" in that phrase. If you mean "prove" then say "prove" and leave out the ambiguity.

    15. Re:Oh - FRACKING by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I grew up thinking it was "The Best Little WHAREHOUSE in Texas". ;)

    16. Re:Oh - FRACKING by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Yes, this would certainly be a warning sign. But did they actually find that? My impression (and, of course, in the best traditions of /. I did not RTFA) was that this particular study tries to correlate geographic distribution of earthquakes and fracking operations, not before/after in the same area.

    17. Re:Oh - FRACKING by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      What you're suggesting is that there is no correlation, just coincidence. Coincidence is not correlation, although it can appear so if you've done your stats poorly.

    18. Re:Oh - FRACKING by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      Are areas where there is a lot of shale-trapped natural gas more prone to earthquakes for that matter?

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    19. Re:Oh - FRACKING by SecurityTheatre · · Score: 1

      I was under the impression they had correlated the "strongest ever recorded" earthquakes, and "recent earthquakes over 3.0" which were both unusual events, especially to happen within a close proximity to such an unusual geological event (high-pressure fracking).

      Of course, nobody should draw a difinitive conclusion without seeing some pretty solid further evidence, but it does lead one to pause...

    20. Re:Oh - FRACKING by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right... Like in Texas, where we don't have earthquakes very often at all -- Except right after we started the fracking. So, the frequency of the earthquakes increases in the region when the fracking starts. To fully test the hypothesis we need to ban fracking for a while and collect some more data about said frequency.

      TL;DR: Go frack somewhere else.

    21. Re:Oh - FRACKING by sFurbo · · Score: 2

      Earthquakes happen where fault is present. Frakking is done where the beds are accessible. Wouldn't one of the criteria for accessibility be depth? And wouldn't faults be where the beds were closest to the surface? If that is the case, faults could cause both earthquakes and frakking. Do we have a temporal correlation, with more earthquakes after frakking then before in the same area, or is there only spatial correlation?

    22. Re:Oh - FRACKING by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, how strong is the correlation? FTA

      The article? Why not read the actually paper? I wondered if Frohlich could be as stupid as you claim he is, so I skimmed the paper. Nope. He's not. And it's clear you never even looked at the paper. You're guesses are way way off.

    23. Re:Oh - FRACKING by Tancred · · Score: 1

      People should be careful about correlation and causation, but that doesn't mean correlation is useless. The sometimes missing piece is a mechanism for how A affects B. But in this case there is an entirely plausible mechanism.

    24. Re:Oh - FRACKING by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Back in the 60's, Denver had a similar set of minor earthquakes. Somehow, someone figured out that they correlated with the Rocky Mtn Arsenal disposing of old nerve weapons (mustard gas, etc) via an artesian well located on said premises, injecting said agents into the well. Of course, the Army denied it, citing "correlation does not imply causation". Actually, it took a while for them to even admit they were doing it and then the spin started. Kinda like what I''m reading here... But I digress...One of the local House rep's suggested the army stop for a period of time and then restart and see what happened. I think they had to go to court to get the army to cooperate. What happened? The quakes stopped when they stopped the injection process. They started back up again when they restarted.

      So, correlation does not imply causation, except when it does.

  2. While... by msauve · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'm not defending fracking, per se, isn't it better to have a bunch of small earthquakes than one big one?

    --
    "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    1. Re:While... by avandesande · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Yes, small earthquakes relieve stress in fault lines. They may actually be doing these communities a favor.

      --
      love is just extroverted narcissism
    2. Re:While... by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Unless, you're releasing a stable fault to freely move that wouldn't have otherwise. Not something I'd want drillers playing with without real data to know for sure.

      --
      I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
    3. Re:While... by clarkkent09 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Don't be apologizing for "defending" fracking. There is nothing wrong with it any more than there is with a million other industrial or mining procedures on which the civilization depends and which would have been equally attacked had the environmentalist movement been around when they were invented.

      --
      Negative moral value of force outweighs the positive value of good intentions.
    4. Re:While... by msauve · · Score: 2

      What is a "stable fault?" By definition, a fault exists where there is earth movement. It's just a matter of how long it takes for enough forces to build to create a slip.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    5. Re:While... by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      I'm not defending fracking, per se, isn't it better to have a bunch of small earthquakes than one big one?

      Presuming that the small ones are not a precursor to a big one, sure, why not?

      I assume the "Best" option of not doing shit that causes earthquakes is off the table...

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    6. Re:While... by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 0

      What are you, Rush Limbaugh? I bet you denied Global Cooling before Global Warming came along. Now you're trying to claim Global Shaking is a good thing?!

    7. Re:While... by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      I'm not defending fracking, per se, isn't it better to have a bunch of small earthquakes than one big one?BR I would be inclined to agree, but last year in Oklahoma we had a large number of big quakes for our area. By big I mean 3.0 or higher. We have hundreds per year smaller than that. Anyway, the large number of big quakes was blamed on fracking, including the largest quake we have ever had on record, a 5.6. So it would seem that fracking didn't lead to a larger number of smaller quakes in our case, but a larger number of larger quakes.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    8. Re:While... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      What is a "stable fault?" By definition, a fault exists where there is earth movement. It's just a matter of how long it takes for enough forces to build to create a slip.

      A fault exists where there's a big crack in the rock, that's all.

      Definition - Geology, Mining . a break in the continuity of a body of rock or of a vein, with dislocation along the plane of the fracture (fault plane).

    9. Re:While... by Qzukk · · Score: 1

      which would have been equally attacked had the environmentalist movement been around when they were invented.

      Unfortunately the movement wasn't, so now we taxpayers get to pay for fixing it.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    10. Re:While... by h4rr4r · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I agree it is just as terrible as mountain topping, and open pit mining that is not filled after use.

      I disagree that civilization must rely on these things. There are better ways, they just cost a little more since they tend to internalize costs.

      As we can see from your signature you are a hypocrite. Externalizing costs to the rest of society is no different than any other form of socialism.

    11. Re:While... by ichthus · · Score: 2

      It's good that you placed "Best" in quotation marks, denoting that it's not necessarily the best option. Just like not having controlled forest burns would not be the best option to avoid larger, more destructive forest fires.

      --
      sig: sauer
    12. Re:While... by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      If it moves when you lubricate it, then there was stress on it.

    13. Re:While... by DaWhilly · · Score: 1

      Location is everything when it comes to small earthquakes.. Might not be an issue in TX but would be an issue in other areas. http://news.discovery.com/earth/small-earthquakes-big-problem-120518.html

    14. Re:While... by poity · · Score: 1

      Layman thinking here, but it doesn't seem like lube should trigger movement in something that's 'stable' (implying zero net force). If lube triggers movement then it wasn't stable.

      --
      your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
    15. Re:While... by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      There have been unusually large numbers of (largish) quakes everywhere in the last few years. The hypothesis is that the big Indonesian one shook everything up and we're still feeling the effects.

    16. Re:While... by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Or you added stress?
      Or you induced a stress in just a small area that now failed and that means more stress is applied to what remains.

      It would be nice if you are correct, but we have no such idea and to suggest that is the mechanism is very premature.

    17. Re:While... by postbigbang · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Small earthquakes are also symptoms of larger shifts. You do them no favor by inducing them, or allowing their tap water to ignite as natural gas gets pumped up through aquifers.

      --
      ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
    18. Re:While... by lgw · · Score: 1, Insightful

      That may be going a little to far, but the simple fact is: the total energy released in earthquakes represents a constant power input. Fracking may change the timing (for better or worse), but it has no effect whatsoever on the input power, or the total release energy over time.

      Sometimes I think there's a group of people who just want power to be expensive: they resent technology and the change it brings, and will look for any excuse to insist that cheap power is bad - not on the merits, but truely because they don't want to ever have to change their beliefs as the world changes.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    19. Re:While... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No actually it isn't better. For each point in Magnitude the energy is 32 times that of the previous number. So a 2.0 has 32 time the energy of a 1.0 magnitude quake. A 3.0 has 1024 times the energy of a 1.0 ...and so on. Let's put it this way, it would take 32,768 , 5.0 magnitude quakes to equal one 8.0 magnitude quake

    20. Re:While... by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      The concepts of "best" and "worst" are purely subjective - completely dependent on both the topic at hand, and which camp a person sides with.

      Perfect example: If you're a commoner in America, major campaign finance reform is the "best" solution to, for lack of a more accurate term, rampant bribery in our election process; however, if you're a politician receiving these obscene amounts of bribes, er, 'donations,' then "best" is probably not a word you would use when talking about legislation that would severely curb your receipts.

      Intrinsic understanding of the subjective nature of human thought makes the vast majority of 'arguments' quite hilarious to obverse, IMO (ha, I see what I did there!).

      Conversely, it also tends to make political "debates" rather depressing...

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    21. Re:While... by ichthus · · Score: 4
      Wow. Let's take this piece-by-piece, shall we.

      What are you, Rush Limbaugh?

      That should be Who are you.

      I bet you denied Global Cooling before Global Warming came along.

      It's called climate change. Didn't you get the memo? And, this is just a wee bit off topic. Don't you think?

      Now you're trying to claim Global Shaking is a good thing?!

      Global? I don't know if this was an attempt at a straw man argument, or not. Regardless, if you actually read the GP's post, you'll see that his point is that maybe releasing mini earthquakes is a good thing. Just like having controlled burns in heavily wooded areas is a good measure to take to avoid wild fires later on. All he did was ask a question -- a valid question that merits an answer.

      Stop hyperventilating, and attempt to have a logical, rational discussion of the potential benefits or problems of various forms of energy production. Don't be so obtuse.

      --
      sig: sauer
    22. Re:While... by sycodon · · Score: 1

      I'm not defending fracking, per se - msauve
      I am not one of the sceptics - Mojib Latif
      I have black friends - most anyone who discusses race.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    23. Re:While... by h4rr4r · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I understand it fine. Here is the externality that occurred in my area:

      They fracked an old NatGas well, to do so they pumped water + some relatively safe stuff down the well. Then they pumped that stuff back up, it was now of course highly polluted with various hydrocarbons. Then they dumped the waste water off at a water treatment plant meant for human waste not industrial waste. The water was not properly treated and ended up in our reservoir that our drinking water comes from.

      What would you call that?
      What would you call the end result of abandoned open pit mine that is full of poisoned water? What would you call the result of mountain topping with the loss of headwaters of streams to both filling and what streams are left being too polluted for fish to live in?

      Modern mining practices are one exercise in externalizing costs after the other. They specialize in externalizing as much costs as possible.

    24. Re:While... by Sulphur · · Score: 1

      Small earthquakes are also symptoms of larger shifts. You do them no favor by inducing them, or allowing their tap water to ignite as natural gas gets pumped up through aquifers.

      Reminds me of someone's pronuciation of this as aqua-fires.

    25. Re:While... by pastafazou · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I don't think you get the point. Their theory states that by lubricating the fault lines with the pumped in waste water, the fault lines are able to slip earlier than they would have without the water. The fault lines already exist, and they already have pressure being exerted as tectonic plates shift. But by lubricating them, they're able to slip with less of a pressure build up. Therefore, the earthquakes will be smaller and more frequent, thus relieving the build up of pressure that results in large magnitude quakes. And for the record, the discussion is about the correlation between fracking and earthquakes. It is not about a conspiracy theory of tap water igniting.

    26. Re:While... by h4rr4r · · Score: 2

      I want power to be cheap, I want to be able to use as much electricity as a city now uses.

      I do not want to pollute the earth to the point were I cannot hunt or fish anymore. I do not want to pay to cleanup these sites after the companies leave.

      How about we use sources of power that per unit energy have less environmental costs? Maybe we even require these folks to clean the water instead of just dumping it.

    27. Re:While... by Sulphur · · Score: 1

      If it moves when you lubricate it, then there was stress on it.

      Just add Pennzoil.

    28. Re:While... by clarkkent09 · · Score: 1

      they dumped the waste water off at a water treatment plant meant for human waste not industrial waste. The water was not properly treated and ended up in our reservoir that our drinking water comes from. What would you call that?
       
      A multimillion dollar lawsuit. So you are saying that a specific company heavily polluted your drinking water and you can prove it? And you are not besieged by lawyers camping on your front lawn hoping for a percentage of the large damages that you are likely going to be entitled to? Where do you live? China?

      --
      Negative moral value of force outweighs the positive value of good intentions.
    29. Re:While... by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      If the earthquakes are indeed caused entirely by injecting water and not by any pent up geological stress then there's nothing to worry about. Unless the oil companies are using nuclear pumps (as in bombs), they won't be putting enough energy into the ground to do any serious damage.

      Frakking has some potential issues, but earthquakes aren't one of them. The earthquakes caused by frakking range from irrelevant to beneficial.

    30. Re:While... by ThatsMyNick · · Score: 1

      Er, the water being unclean is intentional. It is the right mixture to induce fracking. It is not supposed to leak into the water table/river/elsewhere when done correctly. So, as long as we make sure the companies dont cut corners and do fracking correctly, it is all good.

    31. Re:While... by postbigbang · · Score: 2

      I do get the point: fracking enables earthquakes. The hubris is that they predict, small, trivial little, meaningless earthquakes without knowing about the rest of the system's capacity to be influenced by these events.

      Those teensy-weensy little earthquakes are just helping things!

      Yes: there's a correlation between fracking and earthquakes. Tell me you can vet any information relating to data suggesting that these iddy-biddy earthquakes are just, well, fine! The theory posited sounds like it's right out of a PR manual.

      --
      ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
    32. Re:While... by Medievalist · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Sometimes I think there's a group of people who just want power to be expensive

      We call them "Texas Oil Barons".

      For the cost of reinstalling the slave-holding tyrants of Kuwait, we could have instead built a sustainable, biologically derived methane infrastructure that would deliver more gas at less cost than fracking, while creating career jobs on American soil.

      But that would drive the price of Texas Oil down. Way down. Which cannot be allowed!

    33. Re:While... by sycodon · · Score: 1

      Just as bad as topping or leaving a pit unfilled?

      What can anyone even say to you people?

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    34. Re:While... by sycodon · · Score: 1

      I bet he externalizes the cost of posting to Slashdot to his parents.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    35. Re:While... by LocutusMIT · · Score: 1

      Actually, a fault exists where there was movement. Depending on the causes of said movement, there may indeed be the potential for future activity. Or, as is often the case with shallow normal faults in sedimentary rock, the fault could have been caused by the sediment shifting along the plane of bedrock, leaving it in a more stable position than before.

    36. Re:While... by h4rr4r · · Score: 0

      Are you fucking kidding?
      This is the USA, they paid the waste water company and got a contract absolving them of anything. The waste water folks claimed that this was not covered by the contract, and now lawyers get to fight.

      The water is not heavily polluted, but it surely is not good for us. Sure maybe one or two or one twenty such cases will not lead to a provable problem, but at some point it will. No matter what, why the hell should they not pay to clean their own waste up?

      You can't drink money, even a lawsuit would do nothing. Besides they would just declare bankruptcy on that little venture. Mining companies are setup like this just for that purpose.

    37. Re:While... by SecurityTheatre · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Sometimes I think there's a group of people who just want power to be expensive: they resent technology and the change it brings, and will look for any excuse to insist that cheap power is bad - not on the merits, but truely because they don't want to ever have to change their beliefs as the world changes.

      And sometimes you WANT to think other people's genuine motivations are somehow malicious so that you don't actually have to analyze the problems with your own.......

    38. Re:While... by h4rr4r · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Way to ignore what I said.

      Imagine you have a fault line 100 miles long, now with fracking 90 miles of it slip. The last 10miles are now bearing the loads that were on all 100 miles. Think that might cause a problem?

      I am no more a geologist than you, but calling it irrelevant to beneficial when no one knows is highly irresponsible.

    39. Re:While... by SecurityTheatre · · Score: 1

      A stable fault is a fault without torsional pressure.

      It's not to say that most faults are stable, but I'm sure some are pretty darn close, especially right at the center of a large continental plate.

    40. Re:While... by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Let me be more clear.

      The water they pump down the well is fine. Then they pump that back up to get it out of the way at that point it is highly polluted. They tend to either shoot that down a used well, or keep it in ponds. Either way it eventually will leak as humans have never built anything that lasts forever.

      They will always cut corners, so long as their is money to be made. We must assume that they will and insure against it.

    41. Re:While... by SecurityTheatre · · Score: 1

      I am personally under the impression that is has some long-term consequences are far as ground water safety, and several other issues.

      In general, fracking sites have a bad history of conservationism, as far as I'm aware. I don't have a problem with energy production methods, provided they internalize the costs of the environmental damage, chemical disposal, etc. Dumping them into the air/water/ground is not a long-term viable solution and simply doing it in the short term because "this one issue is so small" is both a bad precedent and poor management of resources.

      That's all.

    42. Re:While... by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Do you not know what happens in those situations or do you hate a clean environment?

      Mountain topping means filling in valleys and headwaters of rivers. It means polluting the properties down stream. It means someone makes a fortune will depriving others of fish and game and wild areas and unpolluted property.

      An unfilled pit mine, like say a copper mine fills will rain water, that becomes highly polluted and eventually then drains into the ground water.

      What someone can say to us people is that they will pay for the cleanup of their own actions. YOU KNOW, FUCKING PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

    43. Re:While... by clarkkent09 · · Score: 1

      No matter what, why the hell should they not pay to clean their own waste up?
       
      This is getting silly. Of course they should. The fact of the case may be completely different but lets work with what you said. They claim they effectively outsourced the cleanup of the water to the waste water company. The waste water company denies that their contract covers that. Ok so far?
       
      So how does this have anything to do with the fracking process as opposed to any other industrial activity that produces waste (which includes most of them) and where one or more companies involved are engaged in a legal dispute while trying to wiggle their way out of having to pay for the cleanup? The environmentalist groups, last I heard, are calling for fracking to be banned, which brings us back to my point, that there is nothing different or special about fracking. In fact the amount of polluted water that has to be dealt with per site is not even that large. You point to one case where a company is allegedly trying to pass on the cleanup costs to someone else, I can point to you 100 cases where that is not the case.

      --
      Negative moral value of force outweighs the positive value of good intentions.
    44. Re:While... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I prefer Astroglide.

    45. Re:While... by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      There is no way enough wastewater could be added to induce tectonic plate movement where none naturally existed.

      Not sure if you are aware of the amount of energy released in an earthquake, but its pretty phenomenal. Think on the order of a fairly large nuclear blast for a modest earthquake.

    46. Re:While... by h4rr4r · · Score: 0

      Because this is the norm for these companies. It is the norm for mining as a whole. This is because some of these costs are going to be on going for generations (open pit mine, waste damn might be forever) while the benefits go on for only a short time.

      So what did they do in those other 100 cases?
      It is my understanding they either pawn it off on the locals, dump it in an unused well were it will maybe stay or just put it in holding ponds which will eventually leak. Are there any fracking operations that clean all their waste water back to drinking quality?

      I do not mean the stuff they pump down for fracking that is pretty clean, but the waste water that comes back out of the well.

    47. Re:While... by h4rr4r · · Score: 0

      What a wonderful insight, glad we have you to post that kind of thing.

      Unlike you I have my own bills.

      How about if you don't have a good reply you just kindly STFU.

    48. Re:While... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

      Sometimes the only proper relief from a bad thing is preventing it in the first place. There are somethings that winning multimillion dollar lawsuits can't make whole. Environmental damage often falls in to this category, and tax payers end up footing the bill when a corporation screws up large enough that it can't afford pay to fix its own damage. Privatized gains, socialized losses.

    49. Re:While... by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      Maybe the thing to learn is that non-seismologists really arent qualified to speculate wildly about what fracking is and isnt doing.

    50. Re:While... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let's hope that the lubrication doesn't cause them to slip more, with a bigger amplitude.

    51. Re:While... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So does this mean if we lubed up the California faults, we could get it out into the Pacific faster than it's currently going?!!

    52. Re:While... by DaHat · · Score: 1

      or allowing their tap water to ignite as natural gas gets pumped up through aquifers.

      I was unaware that there was a single proven claim that fraking caused any of the cases of flammable tapwater.

      There have been plenty of claims... but as yet I’ve not heard of a single proven case. Care to point us to one?

    53. Re:While... by Obfuscant · · Score: 2

      Tell me you can vet any information relating to data suggesting that these iddy-biddy earthquakes are just, well, fine!

      Let's ask the people in Japan if they prefer a hundred small quakes or one Fukishima. "Just, well, fine" compared to the alternative.

    54. Re:While... by sycodon · · Score: 1

      Did you externalize the cost of that too? How about your basement bedroom?

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    55. Re:While... by clarkkent09 · · Score: 1

      I doubt that you can prove that this is the norm. In any case, that is beside the point, My point is that fracking can is in most cases being done perfectly safely and that it is not an inherently highly polluting activity (the amount of actual water that has to be treated or stored is pretty small), and that hysteria surrounding it is completely unjustified. Like I said in my initial post, if the environmentalists had applied the same standard to coal mining, regularoil drilling, refining etc and a million other industrial activities, and, God forbid, were successful in banning them every time they found a potential environmental issue, we would not have anywhere near the living standard that we have and in fact would probably still be engaged in subsistence agriculture.

      --
      Negative moral value of force outweighs the positive value of good intentions.
    56. Re:While... by postbigbang · · Score: 1
      --
      ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
    57. Re:While... by sycodon · · Score: 1

      Everyone knows what mountain topping is and what leaving a pit mine unfilled is all about.

      Fracking is not even a blip on the radar compared to these.

      Just go back to your OWS tent.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    58. Re:While... by postbigbang · · Score: 1

      Or perhaps a lot of little, benign microquakes that lead to a Fukushima..... or worse. I can't believe that someone has the brass to insinuate that these are benign in any way. It's PR you're listening to, IMHO.

      --
      ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
    59. Re:While... by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      No one wants to ban them. They want those people to pay their own cleanup costs. You know personal responsibility.

      If the amount of water to be treated is so small why don't they do so?

      If it is so clean why did they need an exemption from the clean water act? Why can't it be reinstated against them?

    60. Re:While... by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      I do not have your life. I am sorry you cannot afford to move out.

      If you would like I can rent you the basement of my house, I had it tested the radon levels are below the EPA limits.

      Or you could try arguing the points instead of being an idiot.

    61. Re:While... by Obfuscant · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Or perhaps a lot of little, benign microquakes that lead to a Fukushima..... or worse.

      A lot of microquakes cannot lead to a Fukishima, because a microquake simply cannot generate the energy to cause the tsunami that followed. I get the NWS quake/tsunami warning messages, and there are a LOT of small quakes going on all the time that don't trigger anything close to Fukishima sized events, or "worse".

      Nor will a microquake cause buildings to fall down and people to die. A thousand microquakes may cause incremental damage, but that can be fixed in between quakes and the final effect will be ... yawn.

      It's PR you're listening to, IMHO.

      No, it's common sense and an understanding that the effects of many small events can be much less than the sum total all at once. Want to loan me an iPhone for a demonstration?

    62. Re:While... by sjames · · Score: 1

      Or it causes pressure to build 'downstream' faster than their naturally occuring 3.0 quakes can release it and they get a 9.0 that never would have been. Or the site had been stable for centuries but now it's slipping.

      That's the sort of thing you want to be REALLY sure of before you start messing with it.

    63. Re:While... by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Have you never heard of hyperbole?

      Fracking is just another example of the actions of companies as irresponsible as those who do those other things. Sure it might be safe, but I don't trust those bastards to run a easter egg hunt and not poison the lawn.

      Oh wow, OWS, folks I would never associate with good call. What a zinger there. You must really make your mom proud, call her down to the basement and show her that post.

    64. Re:While... by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      I read what you said. Adding stress is a non issue. We just don't use enough energy to pump water down to add any serious amount of stress.

      I didn't reply to your second paragraph because it's just making things up. Relieving stress through small earthquakes removes energy and lowers the risk of bigger earthquakes later. If the slip in part of the fault increases stress on another part, it would have eventually anyway.

      What if there are inner-space humans living deep underground and we're drowning them and the earthquakes are their cries of despair?!

    65. Re:While... by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Not in a way that counts, anyway.

    66. Re:While... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1
      If damage is not linear with power (ten 1.0 quakes does little damage, but 1 quake of ten times the energy does more than the sum of the 10 little ones combined), then many smaller releases is "better" for those living around the quakes than waiting for the big one.

      But I thought the fracking sites were relatively inactive, seismically speaking. So the quakes are changing things.

      Sometimes I think there's a group of people who just want power to be expensive: they resent technology and the change it brings, and will look for any excuse to insist that cheap power is bad - not on the merits, but truely because they don't want to ever have to change their beliefs as the world changes.

      The Liberal Conspiracy to send us back to the Stone Age. I hear that a lot in the US, so I moved to a "socialist" country much much more liberal than the US, which also is more technologically advanced (measured by trivialities like broadband speeds, and smartphone usage).

      But yes, I have run into people who wanted to make traffic worse to discourage car use (likening it to curing diabetes by giving the diabetic more sugar). But that's not a conspiracy. And the funny part is that resisting the change is conservative. One reason why the US fails is that there can't be a discussion of conservative ideas like being anti-tech without it being a political discussion. "Conservative anti-tech" is more likely a US-left stance, so the liberals are the conservatives. And the people pushing for SOPA and such are pushing for change to benefit mega-corp. So that's a US-right stance that's liberal, the conservatives are the liberals. We should invent new terms for "resists change" since conservative no longer works. And the same for liberal.

    67. Re:While... by sycodon · · Score: 1

      No point in arguing with people like you. You see only your view point. Fracking is BAD and nothing will convince you otherwise.

      Environmental-wackos are impervious is common sense. You won't be happy until everyone is living in caves.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    68. Re:While... by sycodon · · Score: 1

      OOhhh...so now now Fracking is NOT as bad as topping or leaving giant holes unfilled?

      "Sure it might be safe, but I don't trust those bastards."

      That about sums up your ability to be rational.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    69. Re:While... by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately the movement wasn't, so now we taxpayers get to pay for fixing it.

      As a taxpayer, I would rather pay for a hundred microquakes caused by fracking than the one grand "big one" that destroys a lot of stuff and kills a lot of people.

      I live on the west coast. We're expecting that "one grand big one" (the 500 year quake) any day now. It's supposed to take out most of the coast of Oregon, and have destructive effects well into the Willamette Valley. I'd rather be expecting one that I cannot even feel once a year. The dome on the state capitol cracked? Big whoop. Newport and Lincoln City and Astoria are underwater and 1000 people didn't make it high enough to avoid the tsunami that followed the quake? Well, good thing I don't live at the beach, huh?

    70. Re:While... by postbigbang · · Score: 1

      You're eating out of their hand.

      Not much I can do to further goad your skepticism, so I'll let you be relaxed. Having been in various places around the planet during earthquakes, most of them benign, I'll grant you your relaxation.

      --
      ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
    71. Re:While... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Even though it's unrelated to your original point, to be clear, the water they originally pump down is most definitely not 'fine'. They introduce the pollutants. It is not just natural pollutants from the well. They add all sorts of nasty things to force the oil out, partly things made to reduce friction. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_fracturing#Fracturing_fluids). They, when the water comes back up, they have the problem of deciding what to do with it, and when they inject it back down into the hole again, we have this situation the article is describing, with a probably cause of earthquakes.

    72. Re:While... by AK+Marc · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No I live in the USA, where the oil company hires a small local drilling company to do it, and the small company is responsible and off-shores their earnings in protected accounts. When the problems occur, they go out of business and declare bankruptcy before a judgment against them (to make sure they aren't trying to bankruptcy away a pre-existing judgment), and the mineral rights revert to the land owner (they were just leased), and the liability rests with a couple bankrupt guys with no identifiable assets. In China, the government accepts responsibility and steps in and cleans up things. In the USA, the wall street executives picket that they are getting less subsidies if their subsidies are diverted to help poor people dying from corporate malfeasance (they picket by hiring lobbyists to picket for them)
      br.Go the USA!!!

    73. Re:While... by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      That may be going a little to far, but the simple fact is: the total energy released in earthquakes represents a constant power input. Fracking may change the timing (for better or worse), but it has no effect whatsoever on the input power, or the total release energy over time.

      Even if that is true (and I can think of a couple reasons it may not be true at any scale that is useful for discussion), it's meaningless. The "over time" qualifier is the tricky one... it's possible for the tectonic stress to be dissipated in a non-violent manner, over a long enough timescale. But we're not really concerned about low energy dissipation over millions of years... we're concerned about the one big event that causes catastrophic damage. And just as there is a straw that broke the camel's back, just as there is a keystone without which an arch will fail, the worry is that some action related to fracking may enable the release of a hug amount of energy in a very short time.

      I think fracking is most likely viable; but I also believe we must act with caution and mitigate our risks. "Damn the torpedoes" is no way to run an energy industry when other people's lives are at stake.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    74. Re:While... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And sometimes both can be true, and sometimes neither can be true.

      Also, A is A.

    75. Re:While... by wmaker · · Score: 1
    76. Re:While... by postbigbang · · Score: 1

      I learned that the energy industry, deeply in fear of the media, produced a film that tries to use selected experiences in a propaganda campaign to convince the public that reports of fracking hazards are incorrect, and that it's indeed benign.

      --
      ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
    77. Re:While... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wooooosh!

    78. Re:While... by Solandri · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The best analogy is probably with avalanches. If you let the snow pack build up naturally, it results in a huge avalanche when it gives way naturally. One of the options to prevent that is to fire artillery at it. The concussion loosens the snowpack and causes a small avalanche, dispersing the potential energy that's been built up while it's still small, before it can build up into a huge devastating avalanche.

      Same thing is going on with fracking. The fracking itself isn't creating the earthquakes. It injects nowhere near enough energy to actually create an earthquake (indeed if it were injecting that much energy, it would defeat the whole purpose of fracking since they're trying to extract energy in the form of oil and gas). The earthquake energy is coming from natural tectonic forces within the earth. The fracking just triggers an already-pending earthquake while it's still small.

      So the earthquakes clustered around fracking sites is actually a good thing. We should be doing more fracking - especially in earthquake-prone areas like the U.S. West coast. It's only considered bad due to our perverted legal culture where people are penalized for blame, but not rewarded for prevention. If you leave everything alone and there's a huge earthquake/avalanche, it's a natural event and nobody is to blame. But if someone tries to mitigate the earthquake/avalanche by deliberately triggering it before it can become massive, they are to blame and legally liable for all resulting damage.

      The same problem (legal liability for earthquakes) killed deep well geothermal, which was probably our best bet for 100% renewable and 100% clean energy. It angered me at first, but I decided if we as a species are not mature enough to see why there shouldn't be legal liability for these earthquakes, then we as a species do not deserve 100% renewable and clean energy. We deserve to breathe in, eat, and die in the crap we produce from other energy sources.

    79. Re:While... by Solandri · · Score: 1

      Or perhaps a lot of little, benign microquakes that lead to a Fukushima

      C'mon people, this is slashdot. Conservation of energy still applies. A bunch of microquakes cannot cause a Fukushima. A Fukushima can only happen when sufficient energy for a Fukushima-level quake has already built up in the rock. A microquake may then trigger the Fukushima quake, but it did not in itself cause the Fukushima quake. The cause is the Fukushima-level energy that's already been stored in the rock. If the microquake had not happened, the energy for the Fukushima quake would still be there, still waiting to be released due to some other event. The only way to prevent it is to release it before it reaches Fukushima-levels.

      You're literally trying to blame the straw that broke the camel's back, while completely ignoring everything else that was loaded atop before.

    80. Re:While... by postbigbang · · Score: 1

      I apologize, as I don't mean to suggest that Fukushima was totally caused by microquakes and I can see where my snark might have erred by implying that.

      I nonetheless believe that microquakes aren't benign.

      --
      ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
    81. Re:While... by Chuckstar · · Score: 1

      This is too simplistic. Lots of small shifts over here can result in stresses building up faster than normal over there. Enough faster than normal to trigger a big earthquake that might not have happened otherwise.

      But the important question is not whether fracking triggers small earthquakes, which would be interesting but not necessarily problematic. The important question is whether fracking triggers large earthquakes (the ones that actually damage things and kill people). The evidence so far seems to show "fracking triggers small earthquakes, but we have no idea how it might affect large earthquakes."

    82. Re:While... by Chuckstar · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You are only sort of right. Micro-quakes can allow a fault to shift in a way that triggers a big quake that might not have otherwise happened. These are non-linear dynamic systems. It is possible to both release a small amount of energy from the system while concentrating existing energy in the system into a narrow area.

      In addition, energy is injected into regional fault systems in a manner that is itself probably not constant and probably relates to the configuration of the regional system at any time.

      Put all together, we do not yet have enough information to tell how fracking may affect large earthquakes, whether positively or negatively.

    83. Re:While... by ixuzus · · Score: 1

      Yes, small earthquakes relieve stress in fault lines. They may actually be doing these communities a favor.

      It's a cuddly theory but I have my doubts. The Richter Scale is logarithmic not linear. For example an earthquake that measures 2.0 on the Richter Scale will release approximately 63,000,000 joules. A 7.5 earthquake will be more like 11,000,000,000,000,000 joules. Claiming a small quake will take sting out of the 'big one' is like bragging how much you lowered the water level in an Olympic-sized swimming pool when you accidentally swallowed a couple of mouthfuls.

      Disclaimer: I'm working off a wikipedia table as I can't be bothered doing the calculations myself. Even if the figures are slightly off my overall point stands.

    84. Re:While... by Chuckstar · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Conservation of energy still applies.

      While true, this is immaterial in a non-linear system where energy can be transferred around quite easily. Quakes do not just release energy, they also shift the stresses around, allowing energy to shift between fault lines.

      Micro-quakes could simultaneously release energy, and spread the remaining stresses around such that energy cannot be built up into a single large quake. Alternatively, micro-quakes could simultaneously release energy and concentrate the remaining stresses such that even more energy is concentrated into a large quake than would have happened otherwise. Considering how small the energy releases are in small quakes, these second order effects should be much more important than the amount of energy released by the micro-quakes.

      Most likely outcome is that such micro-quakes do absolutely nothing of importance to the system. A few hundred or thousand micro-quakes simply would not make a huge difference compared to the amount of energy being concentrated then released in a major quake.

    85. Re:While... by Chuckstar · · Score: 2

      This isn't entirely true. The Richter scale is logarithmic for a reason. Small earthquakes (at least ones as small as they're measuring in these kinds of fracking studies) don't release enough energy to meaningfully change the energy in a large earthquake. But small earthquakes can shift around the stresses such that energy is concentrated into (or diluted away from) regions of a fault. Whether energy will be concentrated/diluted in such manners would be entirely dependent on the configuration of the fault, starting conditions, etc. The system is probably chaotic enough to be virtually impossible to predict.

      The most accurate answer to the question of how micro-quakes affect the incidence of major quakes will likely turn out to be "micro-quakes will affect the incidence of major quakes, but it is impossible to predict for any fault system whether major quake activity will increase or decrease in number or severity".

    86. Re:While... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Really.....I don't think Texas Oil Barons are running the EPA. I think you should stop getting your facts from those OWS guys. Oil companies are trying to bring oil to us. The EPA is openly hostile to any and all forms of energy except wind and solar.

    87. Re:While... by Hanzie · · Score: 1

      Excellent counterpoint!

      It seems obvious, then, that the next logical step is to check the relative increase in quake severity in fracking and non fracking areas.

      --
      ********* sig: If you don't like the law, get filthy stinking rich, and buy a better one.
    88. Re:While... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      in China the government accepts responsibility and clean things up

      Lol good one

    89. Re:While... by Sique · · Score: 1

      But yes, I have run into people who wanted to make traffic worse to discourage car use (likening it to curing diabetes by giving the diabetic more sugar).

      That's not true. Every measure that makes traffic more easy lowers the cost to transport something. This in turn increases the traffic, because now more transportation makes economic sense. Only if the transportation costs are high again because of the increased traffic causing more traffic jams the increase in traffic stops.

      You could interpret this as "every turnpike increases traffic until it jams". From this point of view, people who want to increase traffic costs by making traffic worse have a point - it probably will lower the sheer amount of traffic and thus lowers the traffic externalities.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    90. Re:While... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      They may suck at it, but they do a lot better job of it than the US does.

    91. Re:While... by sFurbo · · Score: 1
      From your link

      Perhaps the most well-known example of methane making its way from frack wells into homes was in heavily fracked Dimock, Pa. It was in this small Pennsylvania town that residents reported exploding water wells and tap water that was famously lit on fire in the Academy Award-nominated documentary, "Gasland."

      The study itself (http://www.propublica.org/documents/item/methane-contamination-of-drinking-water-accompanying-gas-well-drilling) seems to have done their home-work, testing the isotopic ratios, but the example from Gasland is certainly didn't. Even when they have a good point, the critics of frakking insists on damaging their own case by mentioning the embarrassment that is Gasland. Why? Do they hate convincing people?

    92. Re:While... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's stable when the friction is higher than the movement forces. The lube reduces the friction, thus taking away the stability.

    93. Re:While... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was going to say something about my standing on a steep hill and being stable, and then a trickle of water runs under my feet reducing the level of friction between the soles of my shoes and the hill, until I slipped. Yours is better, though.

    94. Re:While... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If he can provide a logical reason for that statement, is it not rational?

    95. Re:While... by john82 · · Score: 1

      The hubris is that they predict, small, trivial little, meaningless earthquakes without knowing about the rest of the system's capacity to be influenced by these events.

      Actually, the hubris is armchair techies on Slashdot masquerading as seismologists, geologists, etc. I can only that hope no one would seriously consider making policy or law based on the kind of shoddy, back of an envelope, pseudo-analysis as goes on in this forum on an hourly basis.

    96. Re:While... by danaris · · Score: 1

      From your link

      Perhaps the most well-known example of methane making its way from frack wells into homes was in heavily fracked Dimock, Pa. It was in this small Pennsylvania town that residents reported exploding water wells and tap water that was famously lit on fire in the Academy Award-nominated documentary, "Gasland."

      The study itself (http://www.propublica.org/documents/item/methane-contamination-of-drinking-water-accompanying-gas-well-drilling) seems to have done their home-work, testing the isotopic ratios, but the example from Gasland is certainly didn't. Even when they have a good point, the critics of frakking insists on damaging their own case by mentioning the embarrassment that is Gasland. Why? Do they hate convincing people?

      I think the trouble is that there are two types of people they need to convince: First, there's the type like you, who will look at real data and understand it. That's the type who will just roll their eyes when Gasland is mentioned.

      Then there's the type whose eyes would glaze over if you tried to give them scientific data. They would watch Gasland and be scared spitless, and come away wanting to ban fracking forever. (Either that, or dismiss it all as commie propaganda.)

      Dan Aris

      --
      Fun. Free. Online. RPG. BattleMaster.
    97. Re:While... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      +5 Clueless

    98. Re:While... by hoboroadie · · Score: 1

      Put all together, we do not yet have enough information to prove fracking will trigger the big one.

      --
      They feared that it could be used to suppress protest or support unpopular rule.
    99. Re:While... by jbeaupre · · Score: 0

      If geology worked the way you describe, it might be a problem. But it doesn't.

      You're thinking of it as a constant load that is distributed. But it's more like a fixed displacement between two masses which results in elastic shear of rock. Like a bunch of springs compressed to a fixed distance, not by a constant force. Pop those elastic shear loads along 90 miles, and they release their energy. The remaining 10 miles have basically the same energy storage as they did before.

      And, yes, such an event would probably be irrelevant to beneficial. "No one knows?" Yes, some people do, They are called geologists.

      --
      The world is made by those who show up for the job.
    100. Re:While... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://stateimpact.npr.org/texas/2012/03/30/epa-to-range-resources-drill-away/

      http://abclocal.go.com/kfsn/story?section=news/state&id=5980352

      http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-epa20dec20,0,1603760.story?coll=la-home-center

      http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24276709/

      http://articles.philly.com/2008-12-07/news/24992895_1_climate-change-climate-change-deputy-administrator-jason-burnett

      http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A55268-2005Mar21.html

      The EPA is run by the administration of the moment. Reagan had James Watt as Secretary of the Interior, for chrissakes. Right now, the EPA likes solar because Obama likes solar. Under Bush, the EPA loved nothing more than oil companies, as demonstrated by the reality based links given above.

      Now go on back to your Tea Party, meme-bot, and let the grown-ups talk.

    101. Re:While... by T+Murphy · · Score: 1

      I'm picturing a Jenga tower, it has stored energy with all the pieces elevated above the ground. Removing pieces does reduce the total energy available, but depending which piece you remove you could calmly defuse the situation, or you could trigger a catastrophic event.

      I have no reason to believe that induced mini-earthquakes are Jenga pieces taken off the top of the tower, rather than the middle or the bottom. Also, we may well be disturbing inactive faults (just as a Jenga tower doesn't fall over if you leave it be).

      Is this a good analogy? If not, I would appreciate the chance to learn. All the comments I see dismissing the mini-earthquakes as a good thing just assume any energy removed can only help.

    102. Re:While... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Prove it, where is the link to a reputable news sight?

    103. Re:While... by lgw · · Score: 1

      I don't think we disagree here. It's important not to irrationally overstate environment costs, but they are real, and relevent. As an environmental engineer I once roomed with would say "you can never have too little pollution, but you can have too little production".

      However, there is a significant group out there who may talk about "clean power", but when cornered there's actually no kind of power they will say is clean. It's just a screen - they object to technology and industry in general. For example, I'm a big fan of solar thermal power - it's not efficient like the panels make from rare materials, but it's quite plentiful. California had a couple of test plants on the grid providing baseline power for a while - but they were shut down "due to environemntal concerns". Clearly a dodge.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    104. Re:While... by lgw · · Score: 1

      Texas Oil Barons want oil to be expensive, so they make us stabilize oil producing areas in the Middle East to keep prices down.

      That's at the "youtube comments" level of thoughtfulness, and yet gets modded insightful. And I hear it over and over. This makes no kind of damn sense at all. You're starting with "oil is evil" as an axiom, you don't care anything about reality or even logical consistency, just as long as you can paint as evil anyone who has anything to do with oil. This is the kind of irrational BS I'm talking about.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    105. Re:While... by lgw · · Score: 1

      Other people genuine motivations are often malicious. If you grew up so sheltered that you don't understand this at a gut level, then IU guess I'm happy you had such a nice life, but it's an odd thing to deny.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    106. Re:While... by lgw · · Score: 1

      The economic benefit of cheap transport vastly outweighs the cost of "more traffic" is the point. Some people want a better life. Others hate cars, oil, and technology and industy in general. Anthing with a motor is bad, really, by their standards.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    107. Re:While... by lgw · · Score: 1

      The risk of big violent quakes only accumulates over time, and the delay between quakes is very much on a human timescale. On a geological timescale pieces of crust move quite smoothly over the mantle. If there a risk of releasing a huge amount of energy, fracking didn't put that risk there - it was already there, and likely to happen in the next few decades. There is no inherent stability to be somehow removed by fracking - it's quite unstable as it is. If you live on a fault line (as I do), it might be comfoting to pretend otherwise, but you're only fooling yourself.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    108. Re:While... by Chuckstar · · Score: 1

      Very unlikely that we will ever be able to show/prove that fracking will trigger the big one. The systems are simply too complex. In one configuration, micro-quakes could realign stresses to avoid the big one. In another configuration, micro-quakes could realign stresses to trigger the big one. And since these are non-linear dynamic systems, the butterfly effect rears its head. So it could be that those two systems -- one that leads to the big one and the other that leads away from the big one -- could have only tiny differences in starting configuration.

    109. Re:While... by Medievalist · · Score: 1

      You're projecting on to others, at least in my case. I don't think the way you seem to, in two-sided confrontational memes; I am a registered Republican who frequently votes Libertarian or Green Party.

      You claim I started with "oil is evil" as an axiom. This is patently false. If anything, I love oil. I use it every day. And that's why, like Nikola Tesla said around 1915, I don't want short-sighted idiots to burn it up. When I occasionally change the oil in my antique electric tractor I recycle it.

      You imply that the USA has "stabilized oil producing areas in the Middle East" which tells me that either you haven't paid any attention at all to actual oil prices (for decades) or you have a very odd definition of "stablize" which includes radicalizing generations of Muslims in the Middle East, Africa, and Indonesia, destroying dozens of major production facilities, and turning formerly lovely cities into smoking wastelands.

      See, I look at real things, not claims made by people who want to sell me stuff. If you do that, maybe some of the things that are baffling you will make sense?

      For example, go downtown and look at the price of a can of motor oil. Write it down. Now wait until after the election and check again. Then, after you do that, try and tell me that US government policies are intended to keep oil inexpensive.

      You have to be not just irrational, but willfully blind to believe that using military force to prevent Iraq, Iran and Venezuela from abandoning the petrodollar is some kind of effort to impoverish US oil producers who give billions to politicians. US government policy under Bush was essentially directed by oil companies, and Obama has certainly not made anything more than token moves against them.

    110. Re:While... by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Except to make the analogy accurate you have to be constantly increasing the stress on the tower (turning up gravity I guess) and at the same time your big brother walks by every once in a while and shakes the table -- the effect of other earthquakes. While you MIGHT knock the tower over prematurely, in general you'll be better off by getting as many blocks out while gravity is weak, before the whole thing gets knocked over by your brother.

    111. Re:While... by lgw · · Score: 1

      Saddam was very destabilizing in the region, with a track record of invading his neighbors. He's gone. Our troops stationed in Saudi were a major reason why well-funded radical muslims in the area (e.g., OBL), chose the US to be the "external threat" needed to help unify their followers (any external threat would do, and we were handy). Those troops are gone (or at least they were, I hear they may be moving some back, which would be amajor mistake IMO).

      The US is only one player among many when it comes to oil prices. And the vast majority of wealthy people recognize that cheap energy means more growth.

      using military force to prevent Iraq, Iran and Venezuela from abandoning the petrodollar is some kind of effort to impoverish US oil producers

      This is a sure sign you've learned about this from the internet. It barely matters what currency oil futures are priced in - it's a 0.1% thing. Neither Iran nor Venezuela can maintain their oil production facilities in any case, and are just less relevent every year.

      US government policy under Bush was essentially directed by oil companies

      Yeah, reads just like a YouTube comment, sorry.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    112. Re:While... by Medievalist · · Score: 1

      Your premise - that destroying production facilities for a commodity somehow does not raise prices - is untenable.

      Everything else you are saying is rationalization of your false premise, and unconvincing. Supply and demand are not something you can wave away with propaganda about "stabilization". Saddam sold oil for less, which cut into the profits of American oil interests, and that's simply a fact. If you choose to deny physical realities I can't help you with that.

  3. Maybe after the "big" earthquake by bobstreo · · Score: 1

    They can use natural gas generators until FEMA shows up.

  4. Correlation - Causation? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    We've been here before I'm sure!

    1. Re:Correlation - Causation? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The science is settled on fracking and earthquakes. We don't need your denialist Nazi bullshtine here... you Nazi!

    2. Re:Correlation - Causation? by Mitchell314 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Yet another believer in the big lie that earthquakes don't cause fracking. :P

      --
      I read TFA and all I got was this lousy cookie
  5. Damage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Have any of these earthquakes caused any significant damage? If they were going to happen anyway due to fault stress maybe it's better to induce them early when they will be weaker.

  6. Correlation is not causation! by AndyKron · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Correlation is not causation! Oops, I read you're not supposed to say that anymore.

    1. Re:Correlation is not causation! by wierd_w · · Score: 2

      Well, in this case, you have a strong case for cause.

      While the actual cause of the earthquakes is tectonic and geological stresses, the fracking provides lubrication for these events to occur. Without said lubrication, the quakes don't happen until stresses achieve sufficient strength to move without it. (Eg, major earthquake.)

      In this context, the lubrication does indeed incite movement, but the energy for the movement coms elsewhere.

      This sort of semantic argument reminds me of schoolkids saying "they didn't do anything!" After egging another kid to punch someone.

    2. Re:Correlation is not causation! by msauve · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But causation does require correlation, along with a reasonable basis for the cause. Maybe something like "if you pump water in there, it reduces friction and the fault slips a little."

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    3. Re:Correlation is not causation! by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Why woud you assume the fracking is acting as lubrication instead of just adding some stress to the situation that is already there?

      Honestly I don't think we know enough to say what the possible cause or even nature of the relationship would be.

    4. Re:Correlation is not causation! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This sort of semantic argument reminds me of schoolkids saying "they didn't do anything!" After egging another kid to punch someone.

      They'd be right; they didn't do anything. Well, except egg someone on, of course. But the other person didn't have to do anything.

    5. Re:Correlation is not causation! by onemorechip · · Score: 1

      Er, you can say it. The two aren't identical. But never say that correlation is not evidence of causation, because it is.

      --
      But, I wanted socialized health insurance!
  7. Reservoirs by busyqth · · Score: 2

    Reservoirs are associated with earthquakes too.

  8. What the Frack? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Frackin' A!

  9. More frequent but smaller better? by Firethorn · · Score: 1

    This was the same thought I had - better to have the fault slip now when it's a barely feelable ~3.0 than to have it work it's way up to a 6.

    Then again, maybe the little slips put more pressure on different areas, and might make the 'big one' more likely.

    It'd be something for scientists to work out on supercomputers. Maybe we'll deliberately inject wastewater to trigger that 6.0 before it builds up to that 8-9.

    --
    I don't read AC A human right
    1. Re:More frequent but smaller better? by SuperMooCow · · Score: 1

      Just ask these guys what happens in their simulation for Texas, USA between 2012 and 102012.

    2. Re:More frequent but smaller better? by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      Then again, maybe the little slips put more pressure on different areas, and might make the 'big one' more likely.

      More likely, if a small quake is going to put enough pressure on another area to make it fire off "the big one", then the large quake from an unrelieved fault is going to impact a lot of "another areas" and fire off a lot of "the big ones" in rapid succession.

      I can tap my finger on the back of your fancy expensive iPhone a thousand times, or I can whack it with a ballpeen hammer once. Which would you prefer?

    3. Re:More frequent but smaller better? by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      More likely, if a small quake is going to put enough pressure on another area to make it fire off "the big one", then the large quake from an unrelieved fault is going to impact a lot of "another areas" and fire off a lot of "the big ones" in rapid succession.

      Which is probably why earthquakes often start off somewhat small, then get big, then you have a lot of aftershocks.

      I think the situation is such that artificially stimulating earthquakes will, on average, reduce tension between the plates and reduce individual earthquakes - and as tremors below certain energy thresholds don't really cause damage, while moving up in energy level causes rapid increases in damage. Thus, four 3's probably do less damage than a single 4.

      Still, there are individual cases to worry about - before you go artificially tripping a fault, you're probably going to want to model stuff so that you DON'T trip the 'big one' when you're not ready.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    4. Re:More frequent but smaller better? by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      - before you go artificially tripping a fault, you're probably going to want to model stuff so that you DON'T trip the 'big one' when you're not ready.

      Nobody is really ever ready for "the big one". Planners plan, architects design, emeregency responders practice, but in the end, the big one is always bigger than you wanted and never fully prepared for.

      We've been expecting "the big one" in Oregon for many years. There's still stuff that the experts are coming up with to increase preparedness. Unfortunately, the people who have to be prepared the most are the ones who get tired of continually hearing about "be prepared" and they get a large case of apathy. That would be the public, who will be standing in the streets after the quake in a coastal city wondering which way to go and how to cross the bridges out of town after they've fallen down, as the tsunami rolls through town.

  10. Summary Got it Backwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Obviously it is the increase in earthquakes that is causing the fracking. Just look at the correlation!

  11. And yet nothing will be done in the long run by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Oh please, they could prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that fracking, or some part of its process, causes earthquakes, there won't be the slightest change in procedure. After all, that oil's not going to sell itself sitting in the ground there.

    Does money ride on an action being taken? If yes, it's absolutely irrelevant what the effects are of it being done, it's going to be done.

    1. Re:And yet nothing will be done in the long run by sexconker · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Oh please, they could prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that fracking, or some part of its process, causes earthquakes, there won't be the slightest change in procedure. After all, that oil's not going to sell itself sitting in the ground there.

      Does money ride on an action being taken? If yes, it's absolutely irrelevant what the effects are of it being done, it's going to be done.

      I like fracking because liberals aren't quite sure what line to tow.

      According to liberals:

      Fracking is evil when it's for oil.
      Fracking is good when it's for natural gas.

      HOLD IT! Now that oil companies are heavily investing in natural gas, the environmental effects due to getting it and processing it must be scrutinized!

      Natural gas bad! Better than coal, but bad!
      Make a documentary blaming fracking for cancer, earthquakes, etc. Fracking is bad!

      WAIT GUYS I'VE GOT THE LATEST LIBERAL MEMO RIGHT HERE LET'S ALL GATHER 'ROUND AND GET EDUCATED! That documentary had some problems (it was bullshit) so now natural gas is good again, and so is fracking. However, we've got to get some GREEN companies and government regulation behind it! We can't have those oil companies using their expertise and existing infrastructure for collection, refinement, and distribution to make a profit.

    2. Re:And yet nothing will be done in the long run by h4rr4r · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Talk about projection. No one thinks that simply except for you.

      Fracking is neither good nor bad, just poorly used and improperly regulated. Apply the cleanwater act and many peoples reservations about it would be greatly reduced. Force them to disclose what is in their fracking fluids and how they dispose of the hydrocarbon laced wastewater and even more folks would be put at ease. Force all hydrocarbon well operations to case the borehole the entire length and again objections would be reduced.

      Giving them a free pass on normal regulation, require no disclosure and allow them to select which holes are cased and which are not while shifting any environment cost onto the tax payer is what causes so many objections.

      Why is stating that natural gas is less bad than coal but worse than nuclear not true?

    3. Re:And yet nothing will be done in the long run by onemorechip · · Score: 1

      I like fracking because liberals aren't quite sure what line to tow.

      First of all, try and get the freakin' idiom right. It's toe, not tow.

      Second, where's the evidence liberals are looking for a line to toe? You made some extraordinary claims that you weren't able to find any citation for:

      According to liberals:

      Fracking is evil when it's for oil.
      Fracking is good when it's for natural gas.

      HOLD IT! Now that oil companies are heavily investing in natural gas, the environmental effects due to getting it and processing it must be scrutinized!

      Natural gas bad! Better than coal, but bad!

      Third, this is how you decide policy? Sounds like typical right-wing mindlessness to me.

      --
      But, I wanted socialized health insurance!
  12. In other news... by Troyusrex · · Score: 5, Funny

    There was a MUCH stronger association between employment and fracking sites.

    1. Re:In other news... by smooth+wombat · · Score: 1, Informative

      Exactly. The amount of prostitution and drug use has risen dramatically where fracking sites are located.

      Not to mention pollution, noise, water contamination, and bar fights.

      Though in reality, the local population doesn't get to partake in the upswing in employment because the people running the sites are brought in from elsewhere.

      --
      We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    2. Re:In other news... by fermion · · Score: 3, Insightful
      First,this result is not new. It has been suspected for a while that the water injection sites might cause small earthquakes. This paper is just another that provides evidence. It is not just a matter of correlation, there are physical paths to causation. It is not that the HIV virus just happens to be every AIDS patient. There is causation.

      As far as jobs, this is pretty selectively applied. Windmills will create many construction and long term maintenance jobs. Hydrogen fueling station will create many construction jobs. Niether requires us to pay for fuel at levels that support $70 per barrel, or condemn peoples property for a pipeline, or pollute. There are many ways to work. Some people, like hitmen, have no problems if the jobs are unethical. Others od.

      --
      "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    3. Re:In other news... by Ichijo · · Score: 2

      That means employment causes earthquakes.

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    4. Re:In other news... by MozeeToby · · Score: 2

      Those people brought in don't buy things? Everything from houses to clothes to food? More people employed in an area means more economic activity, regardless of where the new employees come from. Your other points about violence, drug use, and other forms of crime are perfectly valid of course.

    5. Re:In other news... by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Sure they do, but almost all of it is temporary. The real profit goes to places far away. The costs however will be at that location forever. If anything goes bad, the little mining company set up for that site will declare bankruptcy the parent organization will wash its hands of the place and the taxpayer will be stuck with the bill.

      For somethings like nuclear power just because of the scale that is the only way it can be, for little natural gas wells this is not the case.

    6. Re:In other news... by nevermore94 · · Score: 1

      Sure, they buy things, lots of things, and then prices go way up and especially housing because of so many new temporary people in the area and then whole apartments full of retired people living on fixed incomes get evicted because their rent has gone up from $400 a month to $2000 a month (not necessarily Texas, but NW North Dakota).

      --
      Nevermore.
  13. Lucky Japs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Japanese better watch out, After last years quake its clearly only a matter of time before they end up with the worlds largest fracking plant in their back yard

  14. hey its time for an election by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    lets bring in "Most Likely" into the mix. No need to have proof anymore when you're waging an energy war. Meanwhile, lets also complain about the high price of gas.

    1. Re:hey its time for an election by SuperMooCow · · Score: 1

      I'm still going to vote for Not Sure.

  15. Look on the bright side! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We have a potential means for re-introducing tectonic activity on Venus and Mars if we want!

  16. Damn you greeny extremists!! by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 3, Funny

    Clearly, if we were just allowed to dump wastewater into local rivers and streams, none of these earthquakes would have had to happen. Why are environmentalists objectively pro-earthquake?

    1. Re:Damn you greeny extremists!! by wierd_w · · Score: 0

      No silly. You misunderstand the enviroweenie movement completely!

      They aren't exactly "pro-earthquake", so much as they are "anti-development".

    2. Re:Damn you greeny extremists!! by h4rr4r · · Score: 2

      I believe he was being sarcastic.

      Better question, why are they not required to treat the wastewater to the same standards as when they received it?

      Then they could dump it into rivers. The problem is they want to just dump this toxic water, which is polluted from the well.

      Is asking someone to pay to cleanup their own mess anti-progress? To me it sounds like personal responsibility.

    3. Re:Damn you greeny extremists!! by XxtraLarGe · · Score: 1

      I'm pro-earthquake, and I vote!

      --
      Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
    4. Re:Damn you greeny extremists!! by JazzLad · · Score: 1

      Hey, now, personal responsibility is only for poor people and old people, not rich people that run these operations. ~

      --
      "If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear." - Every fascist, ever
  17. Re:Stats Fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    > What is rule #1 in statistics? "Correlation does not equal causality."

    Yes, you do fail stats.

    When a man-made event clearly proceeds some other event, then correlation does imply causation. This is the entire basis of experimental science.

    Unless you can show that the earthquakes in the future are somehow causing fracking in the past, then it is causation. If that's the case, then I'm sure there are a couple of Nobel Prizes in it for your discovery of time-travel.

  18. You are correct Sir by bobs666 · · Score: 1

    Mod parent up.

  19. Don't fuck with Mother Nature! by Nyder · · Score: 1

    What happened to earth having a fragile ecosystem?

    Why is the search for oil so important, that we will risk destroying parts of this fragile ecosystem just to get more?

    How much corporate greed are we going to allow before we say enough?

    --
    Be seeing you...
    1. Re:Don't fuck with Mother Nature! by wierd_w · · Score: 1

      The same reason we kill people with drone warfare, install puppet dictators, export rediculous legislation, and arrest grannies wth unsecured wifi.

      The holy doctrine of "don't fuck with the money."

    2. Re:Don't fuck with Mother Nature! by dkleinsc · · Score: 1

      Why is the search for oil so important, that we will risk destroying parts of this fragile ecosystem just to get more?

      When there was a really really large amount of money to be made obtaining it, that can conveniently be partially distributed to the people responsible for deciding whether we should risk destroying parts of this fragile ecosystem.

      The US government has demonstrated on several occasions that it's perfectly willing to fight wars for oil as well (regardless of what you think of the latest Iraq War, the earlier Gulf War was without serious question over oil).

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    3. Re:Don't fuck with Mother Nature! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LOL, bet you posted this from your Mac.

    4. Re:Don't fuck with Mother Nature! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why is the search for oil so important

      So you can sit there at your natural gas powered chinese computer, get fat and bitch about the environment.

    5. Re:Don't fuck with Mother Nature! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "What happened to earth having a fragile ecosystem?"

      Much of it is quite resilient. The subsurface ecosystem is particularly robust, and consists only of bacteria. Earthquakes aren't going to affect the surface ecosystem significantly. Ecosystems already handle natural earthquakes. It's mostly the human stuff that would be affected by earthquakes.

      "Why is the search for oil so important, that we will risk destroying parts of this fragile ecosystem just to get more?"

      People pay quite a bit of money for oil in order to use it as an energy source. It's cheaper and more transportable than many of the alternatives, and much infrastructure for using it is already in place. In the case of the US, oil is particularly challenging in an economic sense because domestic production covers less than half the demand for it. The biggest conventional oil fields were tapped and have been in decline for many decades in the US. Oil production in the US peaked in 1970. This dependence accounts for much of the desperation that drives development of marginal fields that benefit from hydraulic fracturing to improve the production rates. Putting it simply: "because all the easy-to-obtain oil is already found and on tap".

      "How much corporate greed are we going to allow before we say enough?"

      As soon as people stop paying for the stuff directly or indirectly, by parking their cars and by using non-fossil-fuel based food production, industry, and transportation.

      Which is to say: probably not until it becomes dramatically more expensive and/or runs out, such that alternatives become relatively cheaper.

      You don't want the side effects of your extreme addiction to oil affecting fragile ecosystems? Then stop using it. Good luck with that. It won't be easy. Alternatively, strengthen regulations surrounding petroleum exploration and accept that increasing the monitoring and mitigation of those risks will increase the cost. You won't be able to eliminate the risks entirely, of course, which is why the ultimate solution (if that's your desire) is to stop using the product entirely. Unfortunately it's tough stuff to quit cold turkey.

      Thankfully, as a non-renewable resource, the problem will eventually take care of itself over the next few decades.

  20. Didn't I see this in the 80's? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It must be true...Ian Fleming thought it up! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_View_to_a_Kill

  21. Yup. by publiclurker · · Score: 1

    As long as they feel that they can either profit personally, or get away with not having to pay for the damage they've caused, people like the parent will whore for any group out there.

    1. Re:Yup. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The parent was just asking a question you fucking idiot. People like you need to get shot.

  22. Easy Fix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Couldn't they just inject some kind of glue with the wastewater? Problem solved.

  23. Re:Stats Fail by Hatta · · Score: 4, Insightful

    When A is correlated with B, there are 3 possibilities. A causes B, B causes A, or both B and A are caused by a third factor C.

    So are you claiming that earthquakes cause fracking? Or are you claiming that some unknown third factor causes both earthquakes and fracking? If you don't have any plausible suggestions for either, causation seems like the most likely explanation.

    --
    Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
  24. More frequent but smaller IS better! ... FTFY by bobs666 · · Score: 1

    I am Computer Scientist not a Seismologist. But as I understand it getting the input data that described the pressures on the faults for modelling Is not a simple task. In general releasing pressure on a fault line in a controlled manner is a good thing. On the other hand the Goal of fracking is not to reduce earth quakes, its to get natural gas from the ground. Government over sight becomes a political issue and we know where government officials get there money. So we are going to have to hope for the best.

  25. You mean to say... by Lucas123 · · Score: 1, Insightful

    That if I take a jack hammer to my home's foundation, it may make it less stable? Who would have thought?

    1. Re:You mean to say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's not what they were talking about at all but thanks for playing. Maybe next time you can bother to read instead of just making a knee-jerk reaction. It's so hard to take people like you seriously.

    2. Re:You mean to say... by Lucas123 · · Score: 1

      And you think posting snarky retorts as an "anonymous coward" gives you credibility?

    3. Re:You mean to say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't give a fuck what you think about me. The bottom line is that you can't read for shit. Oh well, you're just another fucktard in a long line of fucktards.

    4. Re:You mean to say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That if I take a jack hammer to my home's foundation, it may make it less stable? Who would have thought?

      Yeah, but dropping a penny on your floor won't destroy your house either. Unless your jackhammer is an asteroid, the planet isn't even going to notice. Even nukes are a joke compared to the energy released by an actual earthquake.

  26. Correlation is not causation? Give me a break! by Lac · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The people tagging this story with "correlation is not causation" are a perfect example of what Slate is talking about this week on how silly this meme has become. Ok, so are you saying that the frakking does not cause the earthquakes? What, is it the other way around? No, I'm guessing it's a mythical third factor causing both. Some mystery force is causing both the frakking and the earthquakes. Maybe birds. Who knows? But nothing something correlated!

    People, the correlation thing is nice and all, but can we please not forget Occam's rasor? The frakking causing the earthquakes really is the simplest explanation, digging out the correlation argument is just as logical as closing your eyes and singing la-la-la. Proving correlation does not prove causation, but it is a necessary step in doing so, not a logical no-no. Even the scientist quoted in the article is aware of the distinction. There is no "gotcha!" here.

    Thank you, Slate. I really had not realized how silly this had become.

  27. Why was research done into this instance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Does it not make sense to just look at other instances and reference that? Or does science from around the world and also from the US differ? I thought science was fact and facts are true? Especially by a university, they should have known better considering university students do research into projects. For a grander equivalent example, this is as if I, instead of doing research on Mr Hitler for a university history assignment, built a time machine, went back in time and interviewed him myself. Maybe I'm just too much of a forward thinking hippy hoping that one day we will be a unified planet where we all do and share sciencey stuff together, for the benefit of everyone. Lets face it, the war/science relationship isn't working out too well, back in the old days there was lots of war and death and not much science, but the war and death kept the population down, now we have more of a balanced set up and they are intertwined pretty closely. But this isn't good enough for us really as we're still putting too much effort into the war and death and not enough into friendship and science, and this less amount of war and death means we have a population/resource usage issue to deal with and while war or science can solve it (either by having so many dead that there is enough to go around or that we advance science enough for better usage of resources/find more resources elsewhere). We can't have both at a sustainable amount. When are we going to get our ass in gear and choose one or the other? Hmm, I feel I went a little off topic on this one, AC post it is haha.

    1. Re:Why was research done into this instance? by WillgasM · · Score: 1

      scientists know that most facts, aren't facts. Science is useless if we don't question our current understanding.

  28. But!! MONEY!!!! by erroneus · · Score: 1

    They are making a lot of money!! Don't let things like large scale damage to property and possible loss of life or other environmental concerns interfere with their god-given right to make money!

    How long was there denial of the connection between smoking and cancer? Money at stake... much denial resulted.

    Global warming? Same thing... still going on

    A separation of church and state needs to happen... and by church I mean money... that *IS* their god after all.

  29. Greasing the wheel by jamesl · · Score: 1

    So, instead of one big quake releasing energy built up over a long time, we have a series of small quakes. This is a good thing.

    1. Re:Greasing the wheel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well put! So what about scope? Generally I'd expect releasing tension anywhere to lead to a global reduction in tension. But I can imagine the site of the small quake contributing to tension/pressure in a larger fault.

      So say you want to reduce tension in the San Andreas fault. Would you go right to the center and inject there? Or would you work at the fringes first?

  30. Re:Stats Fail by wierd_w · · Score: 2

    This case, the "third factor" DOES make sense. Hear me out here.

    Natural gas deposits (the reason for the fracking) form from decomposing organic deposits trapped between shale or salt layers. This gas formation creates pressure (the reason for the earthquakes.)

    So, the third factor is natural gas deposits.

    The incidence of earthquakes will positiviely correlate to natural gas deposits. The incidence of fracking will correlate to natural gas deposits.

    The result is a positive correlation between earthquakes and and fracking.

    A test of this 3rd factor is easily accomplished, by doing a frack drilling where there is no natural gas as a control. That will provide the needed resolution of causality between fracking and earthquakes.

  31. Re:Stats Fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Clearly geological composition causes both Earthquakes and Fraking.

  32. Wastewater, not fracking by hanshotfirst · · Score: 1

    It's not the fracking, its the wastewater. Simply prevent earthquakes by dumping the wastewater on the ground or the nearest river or kiddie pool. What could possibly go wrong?

    --
    Why, oh why, didn't I take the Blue Pill?
  33. What if it was called... by jopsen · · Score: 1

    I'm not defending fracking

    I'm wondering why fracking needs defending the first place... Let's just agree that if it had been named horizontal drilling, nobody would have considered it a threat :)

    Is there a chance I'm right about this?

    1. Re:What if it was called... by h4rr4r · · Score: 2

      Nope.
      The reality is the reason it needs defending is because it follows the standard practices of mining. Extract resources and leave the mess for the taxpayer to pay for.

      Privatize the profits, socialize the losses. Sure they use the excuse that often these costs are individually quite low, filling in one headwater or poisoning one well, but in total we see the truth. Personal responsibility is not something the mining industry wants. Look at the BP spill for a good example. They tried to pawn off the problem and spread dispersal agents to make it look less bad.

      If they had immediately said "our bad" and then done everything they could to fix the problem and to compensate everyone impacted it would have been different. That is not how mining companies operate.

    2. Re:What if it was called... by M.+Baranczak · · Score: 1

      Try again. Horizontal drilling and fracking are two completely different things. They're often used together, but not always.

  34. This article makes it sound like a good thing. by TsuruchiBrian · · Score: 1

    'Faults are everywhere. A lot of them are stuck, but if you pump water in there, it reduces friction and the fault slips a little." So rather than massive earthquakes that result from massive energy releases that are stored in faults for long periods of no slipping, hydro fracking causes semi-continuous slipping resluting in smaller but more frequent earthquakes. I don't know about you, but I would rather have a bunch of small earthquakes than 1 massive one. I don't even know if the claim proposed int the article is true. I am saying that if it is true, the fact that hydro fracking causes earthquakes (not the other possible negative effects) is a good thing.

  35. Good Thing ? by cathector · · Score: 1

    IANAG, and i'm no fan of fracking for many reasons,
    but inducing small earthquakes seems like a good thing to me.
    faults build up pressure, and one way or another that pressure is going to release.
    it seems better if it releases in smaller, more frequent events than less frequent but large ones.

  36. This whole thing just seems backwards ... by KillaBeave · · Score: 1, Funny

    I mean, they are removing OIL and adding WATER. The WATER is lubricating the rocks and causing them to move ... more than the OIL was?

    I think I'll run out and replace the oil in my Jeep with some good old H2O!! 20 mpg here I come!!!

    /sarcasm

    1. Re:This whole thing just seems backwards ... by bobthesungeek76036 · · Score: 0
      Just a 'tad outside...

      If you would read the article closer they are adding water where it was not before. NOT replacing oil with water. When they frack a well they inject water into the shale to break apart the shale into pieces which releases the gas. They extract the water when the fracking is done but the water is tainted with whatever they added to use for fracking and sediment from the shale so they cannot just dump the water. They must dispose of it somewhere and that is what these "wastewater injection wells" are for. To send said water way down in the earth like a deep water landfill....

      --
      Karma: Bad
  37. Re:But!! MONEY!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't let things like large scale damage to property and possible loss of life

    Can anything more serious than a broken window or busted crockery be attributed to fracking induced quakes? Has anyone in Texas or elsewhere actually died when a 0.6 quake jiggled a seismometer anywhere?

    What large scale damage or loss of life are you talking about?

  38. In Texas with many fracked wells next to back yard by bobthesungeek76036 · · Score: 0

    and I haven't felt the earth move once. I'm pretty sure the fracking has something to do with all the quakes around me since they started just a few years ago. Not that I'm defending the drillers but a 3.X earthquake doesn't do a whole lot of damage. Probably why the drillers are still getting away with continued fracking. If we ever get something in the 5.X range then it might raise some eyebrows...

    --
    Karma: Bad
  39. Re:Stats Fail by Beorytis · · Score: 1
    What about the possibility that the "third" factor (gas) does not cause earthquakes on its own? What if it's the combination of gas and fracking?

    You could look at places with natural gas deposits that are not being fracked to see how their earthquake incidence compares to areas without gas deposits.

  40. WHAT??!!?? by pastafazou · · Score: 1

    This is NOT an Insightful comment! You can't "release a stable fault". Faults are active or inactive. Faults can become inactive due to the movements of the tectonic plates that occur slowly over millions of years. They can also become active due to these same slow processes. But 'lubing' an inactive fault will NOT cause it to suddenly start moving again. The tremendous forces exerted by our earth's mantle on the crust above it dwarf the force of friction that can be found between the surfaces of the fault. If the fault line is experiencing any force in opposing directions, then the fault will slip at some point. Some active faults take thousands of years to build up enough force to slip. But eventually, they WILL slip!

    1. Re:WHAT??!!?? by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 1

      Are you capable of standing still? Can you do it for 5 minutes? Now, pour vegetable oil on the floor and try standing still in that same spot for 5 minutes.

      --
      I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
    2. Re:WHAT??!!?? by khallow · · Score: 1

      Are you capable of standing still? Can you do it for 5 minutes? Now, pour vegetable oil on the floor and try standing still in that same spot for 5 minutes.

      You just described working in just about any restaurant where foods are fried in oil. It does increase the likelihood of slipping when moving about, but standing still for five minutes isn't noticeably harder.

  41. Re:Stats Fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Uh, you're forgetting the rather important fourth possibility, that the correlation is entirely spurious.

  42. Correlated? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Earthquakes cause fracking? That's new to me!

    1. Re:Correlated? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, there is no causal relationship proven. Only a statistical correlation when looking at the portion of data that supports the thesis that fracking causes earthquakes.

      Earthquakes happen where there is fracking going on. But, earthquakes also happen where there is no fracking going on.

      The AGW crowd has moved on to AEQs.

  43. Re:Stats Fail by wierd_w · · Score: 2

    Earthquakes from natural gas do occur, and have been recorded from pre-fracking periods. The phenomenon has already been studied.

    http://www.springerlink.com/content/uq662g4351676m63/

  44. Re:Stats Fail by The+Dancing+Panda · · Score: 1

    C could conceivably be "Time". Earthquakes have happened those areas more regularly because of some event (someone previously mentioned the Indonesian quake which shook everything up), which also correlates with higher amounts of fracking purely by coincidence. Note that I don't know enough about the subject to make any sort of conclusion, but there you are.

  45. Re:Stats Fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    You forgot possibilities number 4, a flaw in the methodology, and possibility number 5, it is just coincidence.

    For example, beginning late August, temperatures drop in North America. That then leads to US national elections in November. So, Autumn causes elections?

  46. Re:Stats Fail by jvaigl · · Score: 1

    The earthquakes here and in Ohio happened near injection wells built to hold waste water from fracking. There was no gas there, else they'd be extracting it, rather than burying their waste there.

  47. Re:Stats Fail by sexconker · · Score: 3, Informative

    When A is correlated with B, there are 3 possibilities. A causes B, B causes A, or both B and A are caused by a third factor C.

    Seems like 5 to me.

    A causes B
    B causes A and B is cyclical (or we're time traveling)
    B and A are both caused by C
    B is caused by C and A is caused by D, C and D are unrelated
    B and A self-contained events with no direct external cause and no relationship to each other

  48. Who are the GasCo scientists? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What was it about pumping a high pressure slurry of water and chemicals into the earth's crust that ever made scientific sense?

  49. Secondary recovery, not fracking by peter303 · · Score: 1

    Fracking is basically a one one-time event, cracking the rock within a few feet of the well using temporary elevated well pressure.

    Secondary recovery injects water, steam or carbon dioxide for months or years of time into the ground to push (and sometimes soften) hydrocarbons out to producer wells.

    Fracking crackings generate M-4, M-3 size seismic events, unless it activates some pre-existing fault. The seismic events in Chris paper were M1 to M2, or about five Richter magnitude. These are about 30 million times more energetic (one richeter magnetic equals 30x more energy). Earthquake energy is proportional to area of the fault that moves. Destructive earthquakes have fault breaks miles to 100s of miles wide. Microquakes are just feet.
    The ability to detect and map M-3 seismic events is hot area of oil industry research. People want to know how successful their fracking was. The tiny seismic event size makes this difficult.

    Injection wells can cause larger quakes. the 2nd largest Colorado quake M6 was an waste injection well at the Rocky Flats plutonium production site in the 1960s. Several medium size quakes M4 in western Colorado have been tied to injecting agricultural irrigation water into wells to keep that salt out of rivers.

  50. Re:Stats Fail by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

    Which you will note they did instead of treating the water.

    What a trustworthy industry.

  51. Texas chili and beans. by niftymitch · · Score: 1

    Someone needs to compare the energy of
    these quakes with the energy released by
    eating a bowl of Texas Chili with Beans.

    Just because there is gurgling and burbling
    does not mean that there is distress at depth.

    The earth is a living moving thing and quakes
    simply reflect that motion. So far no one has
    shown these quakes to be a problem. So far.

    For those that are history buffs in the late 70s or early
    80s there was an annual report from Halliburton with
    acres and acres of high pressure pumps fracking
    a well. The total horse power of the pumps was
    some a million +.

    Still a million horsepower is a butterfly sneeze
    in the world of earthquakes that mater.

    --
    Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.
  52. Re:More frequent but smaller IS better! ... FTFY by Firethorn · · Score: 1

    I'm a computer guys as well. For the data - that's why I specified scientists and supercomputers. I KNOW the task isn't an easy one, that's why it's for the future.

    I somehow dropped the 'eventually' I was intending to put before 'deliberately'. Basically the idea is that maybe, in the future, we'll be able to detect high-stress points and deliberately inject water there to trigger lighter earthquakes to prevent bigger ones, using techniques developed for fracking, as opposed to fracking for natural gas and hoping it prevents an earthquake. Even then we'll likely be a long ways of telling what day the earthquake would happen, such that vulnerable structures could be reinforced(perhaps temporarily*), people could put all their stuff on the floor and go camping, etc...

    *One idea I first thought of was filling the structure with foam to provide extra support and prevent collapse, though removal would be a technical issue. Then I thought some sort of airbag would be easier - google shows that a Japanese company has already thought of it. :)

    --
    I don't read AC A human right
  53. So fracking likely reduces the danger of EQs by Timmy+D+Programmer · · Score: 1

    Think about it, the danger of earthquakes is when enormous amounts of pressure are released at once. If something can 'lubricate' the plates in a way that the shifts would be more frequent and less powerful. The end result would be lots of harmless quakes and fewer massive killer quakes. Sounds like a public service rather than a threat of any kind.

    --


    (If at first you don't succeed, do it different next time!)
  54. Ground zero by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I live pretty much dead center of these TX quakes. 3.2 is the max that's happened here and I didn't feel it at all. Also, most of these are truly localized and shallow, not the kind that lay waste to a wide area atop a fault line. No big deal.

  55. Would water-free fracking cause fewer earthquakes? by bobwyman · · Score: 1

    Some companies are developing water-free fracking methods. For instance, GasFrac uses LPG (Liquified Petroleum Gel) instead of water. If water is the problem (or, at least one the problems), it would seem that states might ban the use of water in fracking and require water-free methods. As I understand it, other companies or researches are working on fracking using CO2 or nitrogen.
    see: http://www.gasfrac.com/

  56. Re:Stats Fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Or there is perhaps another, yet unknown, force which has been increasing the amount of earthquakes. This force has been acting concurrently, but is unrelated, with fracking.

    An example of this would be a relgious person getting cancer. Right as they begin chemo treatment, they start praying to God. The chemo treatment and prayer happen concurrently, but neither is related to one another. While only one is truly causal, it is easy to see how other events which happened concurrently could be interpreted to be the driving force of the results.

    The point is, you shouldn't just assume that A causes B without first testing for the existence of a C, D, or E that may have been the cause.

  57. Conservation of Energy, How Does It Work? by Stormy+Dragon · · Score: 1

    Small earthquakes can't CAUSE large earthqakes. There's a certain amount of potential energy that builds up in a fault line over a given time period that can be released by earthquakes. Every earthquake (caused by fracking and that wouldn't have occured otherwise) leaves less energy available for naturally occuring earthquakes.

  58. Good. We should do more. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It seems that fracking is releasing stress buildup in series of small earthquakes. This is good. We should do more to prevent the big one. West coast should start fracking on a large scale around big cities like San Francsico, the communist capitol of US.

    JAM

  59. Hydraulic Jack. by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

    Their theory states that by lubricating the fault lines with the pumped in waste water, the fault lines are able to slip earlier than they would have without the water.

    I've generally assumed that it's not just lubrication that's at issue. The water has to be pumped in at enormous pressure (and just getting it down there adds about another half PSI per foot of depth due to gravity.) This high-pressure water acts over an enormous surface area, pushing the two sides of the fault apart.

    Think of the fault as two rough pieces of rock with gradually rising spring pressure trying to make them slide across each other - which only happens when the pressure gets high enough to break the static frictin. Then think of the injected water as turning the fault system into a hydraulic jack the side of several counties, prying the fault open.

    Sure it's not enough to pry it open, all by itself. But it's many tons of opposition to the force squeezing the fault together, and thus a corresponding reduction in the static friction. So the quake happens now rather than decades later (when the crosswise force from continental drift would have climbed high enough to cause the quake without help from the "jack".)

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  60. Re: A car analogy... by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 5, Insightful

    One thing nobody seems to be realizing is that it may very well be ok to decide that this is a risk that's worthwhile.

    Occasional small earthquakes vs. massively cheaper natural gas with a thousand year supply and 30% lower emissions than coal? Sign Earth up, peeze.

    --
    (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
  61. Earthquakes Correlated with Sunrise by EmagGeek · · Score: 1

    There is a compelling case to be made that Sunrise causes Earthquakes. Every single Earthquake ever recorded by Man has occurred within 24 hours of a Sunrise. Therefore, Sunrise obviously causes Earthquakes.

    God I love statistics.

  62. Straightening things out... by Bensam123 · · Score: 1

    So let me get this straight, people are afraid of a dig site in the middle of no where that MAY have a earthquake in the next two thousand years, which MAY cause a catastrophe that would cause barrels of nuclear waste to seep into the ground water in the middle of no where, which could be easily detected and the closest town which is like 100 miles away could be evacuated...

    But people don't care when we're actually causing earthquakes, pumping said 'waste' directly into the ground in various locations around the US that more then likely will not be taken care of properly in the future or watched with such a diligent eye? WTF is wrong with people? This is supposed to be a better option then nuclear?

    The spice must flow...

  63. Wouldn't it be funny by p51d007 · · Score: 1

    That they will discover that by injecting water into the ground, around the faults, will cause "micro" quakes, and relieve the pressure on the fault lines, which will reduce the chance of a massive earthquake. Now of course, the anti anything crowd will never give credit to the oil industry if this turns out to be useful.

  64. BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    more BS

  65. Oh fuck off. There is a causation theory. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And that theory would lead to correlation. So when you see correlation, it's indication the causation is correct.

    Got it yet, poindexter?

  66. Re:Stats Fail by dkf · · Score: 1

    So, Autumn causes elections?

    No, elections cause Autumn!!!!!

    --
    "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
  67. Re: A car analogy... by Stuarticus · · Score: 1

    How much solid earth will be left once you've fracked every ounce of gas out of it? I'f like to see where you get the idea that it will provide a thousand years worth of gas, remember to include growth in your calculation.

    --
    If you think someone isn't free to have a different definition of "freedom" you may be a tyrant.
  68. Re:Stats Fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    this is the common fallacy implied by correlation does not imply causation
    if A is correlated to B that does not mean that A causes B or B causes A or C causes A and B, it simply means A and B are correlated

    you could find out with statistical data for example that the market prices on Diablo III are correlated with worlwide population numbers

    that does not mean there is some causality involved

  69. Obvious answer by hoboroadie · · Score: 1

    The Kobolds don't dig it when we inject the toxic waste, so they start rioting.

    --
    They feared that it could be used to suppress protest or support unpopular rule.
  70. Kinda sounds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    like the whole Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming position -- questionable conclusions based on questionable equations.

  71. Re: A car analogy... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    One thing nobody seems to be realizing is that it may very well be ok to decide that this is a risk that's worthwhile.

    Occasional small earthquakes vs. massively cheaper natural gas with a thousand year supply and 30% lower emissions than coal? Sign Earth up, peeze.

    Are you really naive enough to believe that gas would be 'massively cheaper'? No, they could find a million years worth of gas deposits and it would equate it to only one thing...more profits.

  72. Re: A car analogy... by DirtyLiar · · Score: 1

    One thing nobody seems to be realizing is that it may very well be ok to decide that this is a risk that's worthwhile.

    Maybe.

    But what give ME the right to decide that for YOU? [See what I did there? :)]

    --

    THINK! It's patriotic

  73. Natural Vs Man Made Disasters by Woodrow+Goldin · · Score: 1

    This raises the question: is a man made natural disaster still a "natural" disaster?