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Shut Up and Play Nice: How the Western World Is Limiting Free Speech
concealment writes "In the face of the violence that frequently results from anti-religious expression, some world leaders seem to be losing their patience with free speech. After a video called 'Innocence of Muslims' appeared on YouTube and sparked violent protests in several Muslim nations last month, U.N. Secretary General Ban Ki-moon warned that 'when some people use this freedom of expression to provoke or humiliate some others' values and beliefs, then this cannot be protected.' It appears that the one thing modern society can no longer tolerate is intolerance. As Australian Prime Minister Julia Gillard put it in her recent speech before the United Nations, 'Our tolerance must never extend to tolerating religious hatred.'"
but speech that triggers violent behaviour in religious whackjobs must be curtailed!
Trading our liberties for other imagined benefits will not end well. You cannot crack the door for this beast.
It's okay for these people to burn our Flag, and pictures of our president, and chant Death to America.
-- By all means let's be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out.
The religious are stupid, and worthy of ridicule. A desire to protect them from words is a desire to suppress opposition to stupidity. Any politician who does so should rightly be called out for allowing religion to dictate his/her political views... great fun when your representatives share your own religious outlook; not so fun when you're the one being oppressed. Try to keep that last bit in mind.
Freedom of Speech should NEVER be joined with smashing people up / killing them because they got "offended" by a comment. This is the trouble with politicians, because they are attacking Free Speech by linking the two.
Cracking down on Free Speech also helps politicians cover up the crimes by them and the bankers that bankroll them.
Take Nobody's Word For It.
This is somewhat ironic considering how often these religious fundamentalists promote hate, discrimination and violence against anyone who does not subscribe to their beliefs.
Seems to me that freedom of speech is pretty useless if you can't use it to express your beliefs, or denounce someone else's beliefs.
Muzzling fascists can go fuck themselves.
Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
Religious hate speech can be a two way street; I've heard some not-so-nice things said by them about Jews and Christians.
I expect people to treat my faith with respect because that is the civilised and enlightened thing to do.
I expect people to grow up and put faith aside because that is the civilized and enlightened thing to do. How do we reconcile these beliefs?
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
'Our tolerance must never extend to tolerating religious hatred.'
Oh, and why does religion warrant such protection? If we're going to protect religion from hatred then everything should be protected from hatred. And that is a very slippery slope down the road to Hell paved with such good intentions.
If you don't like the movie, don't watch it. That is how freedom of expression works. People who can't tolerate that should be thrown in jail for their intolerance of intolerance. :) (e.g., it is the actions that matter. Sticks and stones and all that.)
I have no hatred of Islam, or any other religion. I have disdain for many and fervent disagreement with several. Am I not allowed to voice my opinion?
Does Ban Ki-Moon's opinion extend to the hatred expressed and acted upon by followers of a religion who assault and murder those to leave that faith? (Apostasy)
What about the fatwa and decree of death against Salman Rushdie for his publication of The Satanic Verses? Is the call to murder what Ban Ki-Moon is referring to?
No religion is in isolation from the beliefs and practices of those who claim to be adherents. I have several friends who are Muslims, but who aren't violent extremists. They bear no resemblance to the medieval barbarians making the news in South Asia and the Middle East.
Can I simply direct my scorn and derision at the backward practices of those who are attempting to spread their beliefs with violence and sustain them with oppression?
It isn't the religion I have issues with or hatred for, it is the actions of the religious.
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
In anything like this, it is about balance. Dealing in absolutes is of no benefit. The basic human right to freedom of expression is not unlimited; it is not absolute. Society must place limits. However, those limits must err on the side of offending the most easily offended, as opposed to not offending anyone.
It is no different than the burden of proof in that we must err on the side of finding "not guilty" a few guilty people in order to ensure we do not find any innocent person guilty.
I cannot and will not support unrestricted freedom of expression, for it is the nature of mankind to abuse that freedom beyond what rational people would consider acceptable to the detriment of our society.
Does that assume that we need to set limits? Yes. Well who decides those limits? Sadly, with democracies, that would mean the majority of voters. But on the positive side, most civilized countries have legal systems to balance the desires of the elected officials to prevent the tyranny of the majority (or the tyranny of popular thought).
If only we could fall into a woman's arms without falling into her hands
Why is the party making a statement (or video) always the one being accused of intolerance, while the recipient who can't tolerate what is being said not accused of the very same thing? I don't get it...
Apparently the world's wealthy have had enough of the free speech experiment.
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
It was just a video. Maybe muslims should just grow up.
Sticks and Stones, people...
Seriously... People have been mocking religion for thousands of years, you don't see the Jews or Christians rioting and killing people every time someone pokes fun at God or Jesus. I'm not counting the middle ages here either.. just the last 200 or so years..
This is absolutely ridiculous.. I think every time some country or the people of that country chant death to America, or insult our culture, we should go on a rampage and wreck their embassies, burn down neighborhoods where that particular demographic happens to call home......
Lets see how they like it.
I came, I conquered, I coredumped
To this, I call BS. We still protect filth like the Westboro Baptist Church and KKK to host their hatred in whatever form they so choose. They are allowed to do as they please citing religious pretext or freedom of speech/expression, but we're not allowed to hinder them using the same freedoms they abuse.
Personally, I say suck it up and grow a pair. If your faith is so withered and weak that a few choice words from a 'non-believer' would incite you and your extremist buddies to slaughter wholesale, you deserve more than a few choice words.
I see it as no more than an excuse since the 'true' Islamic followers would be fine slaughtering the rest of the world one piece at a time until such a time that only believers or converts remain.. .as dictated by the core of their faith. Islam IS a plague on humanity and needs to be purged. If that leads to a 'holy war' of us vs them... so be it. Humanity will be better and stronger for it in the end.
It took WW2 to see the dangers of Hitler-esque beliefs and actions, and now we're encountering what is nearly the same exact thing, but from a faceless faith as a whole. 'True' Islamists are the new Nazis, but more extreme in the fact that now it is religious based and not race based.
As a race, we have recovered and advanced since WW2, and are much better off. We have balanced ourselves so that those with power are limited in the use, and abuse, of it to prevent a M.A.D. scenario from those able. Tossing such weak minded and bipolar folks into the mix with their own nukes or other WMDs would lead to much worse than WW2. They do not seek to conquer, but to destroy for the sake of destroying. Stop it before it starts. Tough decisions for tough times.
Rag on me, down vote me, whatever... the world is on a tipping point and I fully expect to see WW3 or it's equivalent before my time is up. I would not be at all surprised to see it led by the Islamic governments or the faceless masses blindly supporting it out of fear and brainwashing. All organized religion is dangerous in extremes, due to the urge to 'spread the faith' and 'save the non-believers'... but when the core beliefs include 'death to nonbelievers' or anyone who would say anything disparaging... that's a whole new playing field. Islam must go.
This whole concept is stupid. What they're essentially saying is that free speech can only be practiced as long as it doesn't offend anyone.
When in the hell did THAT type of speech ever need protection in the first place? The entire point of having a law in place protecting free speech is to make sure that people CAN say the things that are controversial. If we're just slapping each other on the ass saying how great everyone else is then any laws protecting it are redundant.
"People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
I thought the whole "YouTube video sparked violent protests" thing had been thoroughly debunked. Nobody had seen the video in question. The "protests" were actually coordinated terrorist attacks to coincide with 9-11. Forgive me if I'm wrong there.
So, when it's asked, "Why don't you visit the Mid-east or some other Muslim country?"
I'll shut up.
When it's asked, "Why don't you invest in the Mid-East?"
I'll shut up.
When a Muslim charity asks for money, I'll say nothing but "I can't."
When certain people scratch their heads and wonder why they're treated as outcasts of the World society and continually live in the Third World, I'll keep my mouth shut.
By all accounts, Innocence of Muslims is worthless tripe. But we cannot permit even this sort of stuff to be censored, because we know it will not stop there. The same groups of people who were rioting over Nakoula's amateurish film were also up in arms about Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses, a serious work of literature. And more recently, British broadcaster Channel 4 cancelled a planned public viewing of Tom Holland's Islam: The Untold Story because of "security fears". Holland's work was a serious contribution to the study of Islamic history, and Holland is actually quite respectful of Islam, which he considers a moral advance over the polytheism that preceded it. But since he questioned the canonical story of Muhammad and the official history of Islam's origin (just as Christian scholars have been doing with the Bible and church history for centuries), far too many Muslims simply couldn't abide that.
We cannot, must not, allow the precedent that if you yell loud enough and threaten enough violence that you can silence your opponents.
"There's only two things I hate in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures and the Dutch."
~Nigel Powers~
Appeasement didn't work with the Nazis, why would it work with Islamofascist scum?
-- Ethanol-fueled
And we know it is with good intentions. Ultimately "restricting hate speech" will be defined in law as "restricting critical analysis". Galileo was one of the first to run afoul of such folly and I thought we had learned our lessons.
I have a crystal ball. It has shown me the future. The day that 'intolerance' is made into 'hate speech':
"Arrest that man! He doesn't tolerate my abuses of power! That's intolerant!"
crack the door ?
crack the door ??
crack the door ???
David Irving. Dozens of Muslim political prisoners (Tarek Mehanna, most recent - exclusively free speech).
The door has been cracked open long time ago, it's just this time they are coming for you, Martin.
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
That video WAS NOT the trigger for anything in the Middle East. The video was on YouTube since June or July. What happened was, plain and simple, a TERRORIST ATTACK by Al Qaeda, timed to coincide with the anniversary of the Sept. 11 attacks. It has nothing to do with free speech, despite the White House trying to portray it as such, and which they finally, grudgingly admitted.
I never thought I'd say the US was a beacon for anything without feeling embarrassed. But if protecting free speech, even hateful, intolerant, vitriolic speech, is all the US stands for then I'm damn proud to be American.
F.U. to the cowardly countries who can't stand to hear opposing opinions that might upset someone.
Hate speech is not protected in Canada.
It's not clear to me if "Innocence of Muslims" would qualify or not since I haven't seen it.
"Even for Slashdot, that was a very obscure reference!" - Anonymous Coward
This needs to become a hot button item. Everyone needs to ask about it and it should be a polarizing issue like abortion and gay rights seems to be. This is far more important than either of those in shear number of people affected. If a politician votes to limit any of the freedoms outlined in the Bill of Rights he does not get my vote. Period.
Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
So now we have people who are labeling individualism with hate. Orwellianism is happening right now; as we speak.
Trading our liberties for other imagined benefits will not end well. You cannot crack the door for this beast.
Well, being a reader of Slashdot, we're all familiar with that quote. I think more appropriate here is Franklin's "Apology for Printers" that contains many apt gems concerning this news including:
8. That if all Printers were determin'd not to print any thing till they were sure it would offend no body, there would be very little printed.
The first and foremost fear I have is a destruction or suppression of culture. I'm not saying "Innocence of Muslims" is a good film. Of course, I'm not saying "Manos Hands of Fate", "The Room" or "Birdemic" are spectacular films either -- but I own licensed copies of them. I also own several editions of James Joyce's "Ulysses", a book which was banned in many countries when it was written. I will tell you right now that we would be missing major cultural artifacts if those in power had succeeded at eradicating "Ulysses" and its author. Yes, I'm afraid of corrupt politicians, populations that cannot access knowledge, etc. But those are effects that UN officials won't immediately see. Effects that can be immediately felt are people who collect poorly scripted, acted and funded films will no longer have access to "Innocence of Muslims." No one's saying it's a good film -- then again what defines a "good film" is so subjective I wouldn't know a blockbuster if it hit me in the face.
Authors from Franklin to Bradbury knew this and everyone today should know this: you must resist 'trimming' (by anyone's definition of the word) culture to protect it and keep it intact lest every bit of it be an option on the chopping block for whatever fanatic that has the press as a mouthpiece each day.
My work here is dung.
That's all this is about. If I excercise free speech and insult someone, that person's (or group) feelings where hurt. Or religious beliefs, whatever.
If my free speech is restricted for that reason, then you might argue that likewise, only my feelings were hurt. Oh right, so I should shut up just because I might insult people? That's should be obviously ridiculous to anyone living in a free society (of sorts). And I'd argue that the 'pain' inflicted by restricting free speech is much worse than the 'pain' inflicted if someone gets insulted. Especially long-term and in the greater scheme of things. For example: a specific religion is just one group in the population, free speech affects everyone including atheists and other religions.
For more specific issues, we already have appropriate restrictions in place. For instance, if I shout things specifically meant to cause violence, claim things that damages a person's reputation / business but which are provably untrue, etc. Such exceptions should be enough... if you are insulted so easily, grow a thicker skin.
European governments have never embraced the concept of absolute Freedom of Speech. It is a peculiarly (U.S.) American idea, which never caught on, elsewhere. Not even in Canada, as a matter of fact.
"If you haven't got anything good to say about anybody, come sit next to me."
There, Alice Roosevelt (1884-1980, Theodore Roosevelt's daughter) finished it for you.
People who are confident in their position do not fear criticism. I interpret all the lashback as an announcement that they are terrified of discovering that they have been wrong all along.
There's a difference between banning speech you don't like, and trying to talk people out of it.
The correct response to hateful, bad, wrong speech is good speech.
Let's just preserve everyone's freedom to say it!
Agreed. In fact it's quite important to note that freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences if your speech pisses people off. It just means the government can't stop you from speaking just because they don't like what you're saying. That said, the government has been actively (IMHO) violating the first amendment for a while now, the most stark example being the emergence of "Free Speech Zones" when George W. Bush would travel.
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Freedom of speech is not tested by statements that you agree with, freedom of speech is tested by defending those things that make your blood boil.
Really, watch "The people vs Larry Flint", if you believe in free speech you got to defend a rather obnoxious pervert.
A judgement for what counts as free speech should NEVER include, doesn't offend anyone. If it doesn't offend anyone there isn't even a point to free speech, I can go to North Korea and say ANYTHING at all by that standard, can say ANYTHING I WANT in worsed dictatorshop in the world, as long as I don't upset anyone.
Free speech only has value when I am allowed to say things that someone somewhere finds upsetting. The only reason after all to limit free speech is because someone is offended.
Test case:
I, a non-american visit the US and want to test how the US treats Free Speech for foreigners, can I test that by saying on say ground zero:
Wow, what an amazing building, really show how the US spirit cannot be destroyed by those who hate freedom.
It is speech and I am free to say it, but it is not free speech.
If it doesn't offend anyone, it does not need free speech protection. If it does offend, it does.
Beware any politician who seeks to limit free speech for the sake of convenience. They need watching, preferably through a snipers scope.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
It never caught up in US either until Colt retired as a peacemaker.
American culture remains largely a culture of cowboys: decency of speech is based on the threat of violence if you spoke offensively. That's why Texans are still very polite.
I like this part of the culture. I wish liberals understand that if they have retain the right to insult me, I am retaining the right to respond in a manner suitable for a man.
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
'Our tolerance must never extend to tolerating religious hatred.'
I don't really know what "religious hatred" means; hatred stemming from your own religious beliefs, or directed at a particular religious belief? And since when are we intolerant of thoughts and emotions? Last I checked, we already had plenty of laws against violent acts stemming from hatred.
'when some people use this freedom of expression to provoke or humiliate some others' values and beliefs, then this cannot be protected.'
Ah, I see, so we have to limit freedom of expression so as not to provoke people who are looking for an excuse for provocation. How about this instead; I will tolerate your fundamentalist religious nonsense and hold my tongue when you tell me that I'm going to Hell or are an infidel, or that Jesus loves me anyway, or whatever and in exchange--oh, wait there is no bargaining with crazy people. Ok, new plan: we all get to say whatever we want because everyone should be secure enough with their own beliefs to espouse them in a deliberate and rational manner and to welcome criticisms in kind. And if a handful of people do do something violent in the name of the flying spaghetti monster, let us not lump in all the millions of non-violent pastafarians and instead just blame the nut-jobs for their actions and not validate them by listening to what they have to say.
Actually, I wrote my thesis on life experience.
This can be out in the open, where we all can see it, or it can be underground where it can fester and brew until it is too late to respond to it.
"To those who are overly cautious, everything is impossible. "
Of course the problem here is that your right not to be offended might prevent meaningful discourse. If you try to ban what is basically just blasphemy, then you eventually eliminate any meaningful discussion of religious doctrine.
If you can't be a jackass then you can't be a blasphemer and you can't have any freedom of religion.
The right to be offensive is also the right to be something other than a Puritan.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Seriously.
U.N. Secretary General Ban Ki-moon warned that 'when some people use this freedom of expression to provoke or humiliate some others' values and beliefs, then this cannot be protected.' It appears that the one thing modern society can no longer tolerate is intolerance. As Australian Prime Minister Julia Gillard put it in her recent speech before the United Nations, 'Our tolerance must never extend to tolerating religious hatred.'"
These people obviously just didn't think their statements through very well.
Here's the problem with "cracking the door": who decides what constitutes "provocation or humiliation of some another's values and beliefs"? No matter who makes that decision, it is a problem, because the decision will be based on that person's or body's ideals. For example, that crazy Florida pastor's hateful speech against gay rights would be certainly be censored by Ki-moon and Gillard as an attack on the values and beliefs of gay people. But censoring this guy is equivalent to an attack on the values and beliefs of the crazy pastor.
No one has the right to not be offended. We'd all end up in jail for "provoking or humiliating someone's values and beliefs" simply be not tiptoeing very carefully in everything we say and do. And even then, many people will even get offended by the tiptoers, because people are idiots.
If you think that using a gun makes you a man, you're a very small man indeed.
the right to bear arms doesn't include the right to shoot anyone who pisses you off.
The ancient creed of the "pro-lifer" : "Life is sacred, from conception until natural birth. Then fuck 'em."
I understand, and IANAL. I just feel like the Free Speech Zone thing violates the spirit of the First Amendment, even if the courts have decided that doesn't violate the letter of the law.
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To quote Robert A. Heinlein "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life"
Blatant stupidity should be mocked if the stupid want to impose their nonsensical beliefs on the rest of us.
Middle East violence isn't caused by speech. It's caused by stupid religious people (redundant, I know) wanting to kill anyone who isn't stupid. Then they want to imprison or kill anyone who points out how absurd their fantasies are.
Why on Earth should that be tolerated? We should be striving to eliminate idiocy from the Free world, not encouraging it, and mocking it is a perfectly valid means of exposing it.
Baghdad was the center of scientific progress over a 300-year period, until religion took over. Then a once-great civilization was destroyed, and ignorance and superstition flourished. That is the worse possible outcome, yet some people want to do that very same thing to the rest of the world.
Religion/Stupidity should be ridiculed. There is no place for it in a civilization.
India is a democracy and a free country. But you can be fine or imprisoned for making statements that may offend one of the many religions there.
India found it necessary to codify how groups of different religions may interact with one another, rather than the live and let live policy you find in the United States.
In my opinion, relgion is an individual's choice and therefor open to criticism. Violence as a response to free speech is unacceptable and illegal. No matter how riled up you get over what someone says, you must focus your anger in a more constructive manner.
I like this part of the culture. I wish liberals understand that if they have retain the right to insult me, I am retaining the right to respond in a manner suitable for a man.
You are an immature fool. Your "creedo" is fundamental to the very problem that is causing adherents of a certain offshoot of islam to believe they have the right to retaliate to insults, real or percieved, with terminal, capital, effort. You, like they, are children, and developmentally stunted. It takes a man, or woman, of real character, to shrug off insults. Calling you an idiot makes you feel bad for a minute. Responding with terminal violence changes the entire landscape forever. Only an immature fool believes that they should change other people's lives to protect their own petty feelings. Censorship is a foolish, culturally immature feel-good band-aid on what is a much deeper psychological problem. You tell people who you disagree with to shut up and you feel good for a second but you're simply compensating for a much deeper psychological wound you're not willing to deal with. With Islam, its that plus power and control. Its much easier to control a populace by quieting dissent, so you make alternative opinions anti-religious. This is cultural 101, I'm frankly shocked that so many "modern" people are completely unaware of their own complicity in turning the clutural clock back to the middle ages.
Free speech is based on the threat of violence indeed. You know NOTHING about modern American culture. Nothing.
Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
Tyranny cannot be appeased.
The answer to speech you do not like is more speech, not violence.
Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. - Ambrose Bierce
If you're are so pathetically thin-skinned that someone taunting you leads you to take out your gun to defend your "honor", then you have no honor. You're a cowardly worthless piece of freedom-hating shit.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Yes it does. That's what arms are for: for protection what is dear to you.
If you decided that the life is the only thing worth protecting, that's you. There things that are dear to me more than life, so I am protecting them by violence.
I do not care what you think of my rights. My rights are guaranteed by my resolution to use them no matter what is the threat from your government.
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
I agree with OP's principle but am still willing to make some special allowance for Germany. If any circumstance can be called justifying to say that some things shall not be discussed, it's probably theirs.
If any circumstances can be called justifying to say that some things shall not be discussed, then all censorship can be justified eventually; it's just a matter of organizing a sufficient majority of voters/protesters/terrorists.
Hollywood, Television, has become the dream machine. We need to take that back; each of us is a Dream Machine
If you're prepared to shoot someone over a perceived insult, you are too irresponsible to own a gun. And I say that as a gun-owning, conservative, free-speech advocate.
Anyone who owns and carries a firearm has a responsibility to demonstrate iron-clad self-discipline and sound judgment. Shooting people over insults? Not sound judgement.
spoken like an anonymous coward.
FTFY.
No, thinking you have the right to commit violence on another person over words you don't like makes you an idiot, and a savage...
Did you even read up on of the stuff you posted?
You did not. All but the last one were overturned, and many of the victims were awarded money. The last link was for protesters, who weren't arrested for speaking poorly about Bush, but for breaking the laws regarding the actions that protesters can take.
Freedom of speech is still working in the USA.
Not only can freedom to provoke and humiliate others' values and beliefs be protected, I'll raise it one notch and affirm it *must* be protected, for the sake of mankind's mind health.
I'm constantly amazed to see so many "famous" or "influent" people devise that being famous or influent implies, somehow, that they more than anyone else should not tread onto other people's convictions, offend or openly criticize the many widespread values and beliefs held all over the world. Quite the opposite, I would have thought the more people lend an ear to you, the higher your moral duty to voice out your mind and dish out demolition of common reality-walls, for the sake of human thought.
At every level of being, opinions and decisions are formed through constant dissent, even down to the individual neuron's level, war of words and contradicting thoughts stamping each other out, fighting again and again with reason, passion, humor, eck even contempt or guilt, all this for a flimsy supremacy: this is how our minds work. Dissent is our natural mode of operation. And as a corollary, political correctness, by suppressing initiative and blunting internal dissent so as not to confront other people's own thoughts is a double mistake: it throws a wrench into your own gears of thinking, and leaves your fellow humans wading in what you earnestly believe is wrong - not a nice thing to do, when you think about it. This is what mankind has been doing so intently as of late, and it needs to stop (bashing itself on the mind so hard).
Maybe we deserve this world ?
Heinlein was never a fascist. It's an accusation that keeps getting thrown out occasionally by the same people who claim that libertarianism is fascist because they don't want to actually examine their own preferences for various forms of strong government.
"Pulling together is the aim of despotism and tyranny! Free men pull in all sorts of directions" -- Havelock Vetinari
Those didn't originate with Bush. The phrase is strongly associated with campus speech codes.
"Pulling together is the aim of despotism and tyranny! Free men pull in all sorts of directions" -- Havelock Vetinari
it should be a polarizing issue
I find this attitude to be unsettling. The fact that abortion and 'gay rights' happen to be polarizing issues is one of the problems with the American political system. Of course, if the U.S. had more than two parties with clout then this effect probably wouldn't be so damaging. I find it very troubling that an anti-abortion Catholic who believes in a more liberal form of distributive justice would vote Republican because somehow they prioritize the abortion issue above economic issues. Likewise, it angers me to see a homosexual who believes in a more libertarian form of distributive justice vote Democrat because he prioritizes gay marriage over economic issues.
Very rare is there an issue important enough to prioritize over the fundamental economic policies of a candidate. This appeal to morality is usually done by those who have a shaky, at best, understanding of ethics. Distributive justice is an moral issue. It trumps almost any other issue including free speech, which changes from generation to generation depending on how certain judges decide to interpret the U.S. Constitution, but is never wholly endangered. The freedom of speech in the U.S. was enacted by a bunch of cutthroat politicians who libeled one another in publications (often under pseudonyms), slandered one another on the floor of congress, and in general sought to defame one another through lies and rumors. Is it any wonder that the democratic countries that came about after the U.S. were hesitant to have such a broad protection of speech and that none of them do?
"From the depths of my skeptical and rationalist soul, I ask the Lord to protect me from California touchie-feeliedom."
In the face of the violence that frequently results from anti-religious expression, some world leaders seem to be losing their patience with free speech.
No, they don't like trash talk about themselves, because they are amoral, petulant hyper-narcissists, and they see the religion angle as a way to snuff out criticism of themselves.
Would you feel the same way if the courts applied 'money is speech' to being able to make contributions to the pirate bay or wikileaks?
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“Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.”
-- Robert E. Howard
"He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." --Paul Atreides, Dune
We all know of the dividing line for free speech where you maybe don't allow people to yell "fire" in a crowded theater because it causes panic and someone might get hurt.
Well, if people weren't stupid, they wouldn't panic, and this situation wouldn't arise, right? You could yell "fire" in every crowded theater in the country and people would simply stand up and file out in an orderly fashion and then get annoyed that their movie was interrupted.
But that's not how people work, even in a highly civilized and educated country, so we use the law to help accommodate the ignorant behavior people are prone to.
No one seems willing to admit that maybe there's a corollary here. We know full well that some ignorant people will do bad things when you yell "Allah rapes babies in the name of Muhammad" and put it all over the internet. Does that mean people shouldn't be allowed to do so?
I don't know. It's a slippery slope. But maybe even free speech purists like myself need to look at the fact that we don't live in a perfect world where everyone can be expected to behave rationally, and we need to make adjustments for that fact.
Not judging the specific "Free Speech Zones" you speak about, but in general I think the government can regulate, within limits, the manner, place and time of speech.
Otherwise I could go to your street at 3 AM and express my political views with a megaphone.
Or I could put an outdoor in front of a public playground, featuring a woman having sex with a goat.
Damn, I didn't know that the Unabomber's cabin just got internet access.
And that's limited to Muslim extremism in what way exactly? How are they even more laughable and pitiful than the dimwits that seriously claim the world's some 6,000 years old and that Adam and Eve frolicked amongst dinosaurs under the watchful eye of a bearded guy on a fluffy cloud who first of all created the universe in less than a week?
You really think the virgin thing is supposed to cause a bigger giggle fit in me than that bull?
Religious extremism is a disease. In all its forms. Don't get me wrong, if you want to live in a makebelieve world, by all means, be free to do it. Just keep it away from impressionable children and most of all out of laws that may affect me. I prefer education and legal system to be rooted in reality.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Indeed, there's an oddly fundamentalist note to setting up any political principle as an absolute.
It's a peculiar quality that the United States has of having, on one hand, an abundance of sacred absolutes (right to bear arms, freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of religion; all wonderful things), but on the other hand living within a highly-militarized police state. I wonder if all this talk of sacred absolutes hasn't proven useful as a kind of smoke screen to let politicians and big business set themselves up with judicial and extrajudicial powers that quite effectively bypass these same absolutes.
There's nothing quite like the love of rhetoric for derailing reasonable discussion. Political absolutes make ideal fuel for rhetoric. It's much easier to reach for an absolute than it is to reflectively ask, "Oh, what is it about this particular situation that is problematic, and what shall we do about it?" If, in fact, we must learn to navigate through various shades of grey, then let's admit that and get on with the work. In Canada, for example, we have laws that restrict hate speech. They were written in response to a particular situation. They do not address absolutes. They're probably flawed, and we'll discover those flaws as we encounter edge cases. It's all a bit grey, but does that mean that Canada is thereby at risk of becoming a police state? Hardly. The main movement in Canada toward bigger prisons, harsher jail sentences, and less funding of science by government is coming from - guess who? - the fundamentalists.
Parity: What to do when the weekend comes.
Ok, so these Muslim nations want the Internet to be free of anything that criticizes Islam. Does this mean they're willing to take down anything that criticizes Judaism or Christianity? Somehow, I doubt their radical groups will scrub their websites of calls for "driving the Jews into the sea."
There is no fundamental right to not be offended. When it comes to religion, I can guarantee that I completely disagree with probably about 95% of the people posting here (and this is just a self-selected group of geeks with similar interests). The difference is that 95% of the people here will discuss matters rationally. I'll give my viewpoint, they'll give theirs, and at some point we'll accept that we have differing opinions. At this point, we go our separate ways peacefully. Very rarely will someone respond to a differing opinion with a horrible insult. Those are easily ignored (and/or moderated down by the 95% that respect civil discussions of matters).
It is completely possible to calmly discuss issues with someone you disagree with without resorting to shouting, name-calling, or threats. Sadly, too many people (in politics or certain religious communities) see any differing opinion as a direct assault on their own opinion. The fact that someone disagrees with them seems to cast doubt on the "fact" that they are right and their response is to lash out and attempt to silence the dissenter.
If you don't agree with someone and don't want to engage them in debate, ignore them or organize some sort of counter-protest. Others have mentioned the Westboro Baptist Church. I'd love to silence them, but they do have freedom of speech. The best means of "shutting them up" that I've seen are the counter-protests. Things like the ComicCon counter-protest with people dressed in costume displaying humorous signs or the Hell's Angels who go to WBC protests at funerals and form a human wall blocking them from being seen. It drowns out their message in a peaceful manner with another message. (Right to protest doesn't mean Right to be heard.)
If someone offends your religious sensibilities, go protest peacefully. I'll support you in that. But calling for them to be yanked off the Internet because they're offensive is going too far.
My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
Fuck Islam. Allah is a myth, and those who follow that misogynistic, hateful religion which supports conversion by the sword deserves all the discrimination and hatred they get in return.
The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
Yes, fuck all religious extremists, but the Islamists are the most widespread so they get the ire today.
If you don't want to hear it don't listen
If you don't want to read it don't read it
One mans opinion is just that One Man's opinion, some agree with it, some don't
Religion is man made. Humans wrote the based on people that were perceived to be something special.
It seems to me that in the last 30 years, people have become so overly sensitive to words that they don't like the sound of that tempers are flaring feverishly.
For instance, if you were born in the USA, you're an American, not Irish American, not African American. etc... If you claim two nations as your citizenship then those type of titles are reasonable. But if you're ancestors are Irish and you're born in the US you have one citizenship, American. For goodness sake stop complaining Political correctness.
When it comes time to religious beliefs, tolerance is gone. Almost every religion believes in one-god, thus with that very line of thought there is NO Tolerance for any belief other than your own. This level of stupidity just makes me laugh at all religions that teach narrow-mindedness. Religion is a way of thinking and following a moral standard, but it forces conformity in humans.
The beauty about people is that we are all so very different. Why, can't people accept this fact and move on? If your religion teaches you that we have the freedom to choose our path, then stop complaining that we didn't follow your path. And if your religion teaches you "it's God's will" then you're a drone and you have no right to judge anyone or speak out against anyone else, for it's "God's Will" that someone else is not on your same religious path.
Life takes interesting turns, but the most interest is when you're off the beaten path.
If that someone else has shot first, or is even waving a gun threateningly at you, then it is a defensive action.
You can't seriously be that stupid. If someone breaks into your house and is threatening you with a gun, and you shoot him, that's a gun protecting you. And there's a million other examples of a gun protecting you.
Or what if you happen to shoot the asshole that's shooting at you stopping the bullets from coming out of his gun. You logic is so bad it makes me wonder how you even dress yourself in the morning.
While I doubt any pro-lifer would want a baby to die of malnutrition, we tend not to see them marching with signs in the street to that effect, and they're happy to vote for politicians that cut healthcare and education spending in favor of nominal pro-life policies (while suspiciously never actually achieving them).
Pro-lifers seem believe that the state's tolerance of abortion falls morally upon everyone in the state, and if they take no act to stop it, then they are as guilty as the doctors -- this plays into the various evangelical narrative tropes of the "sick society" or "corrupt world" that tempts judgement and requires "rescuing."
However, you don't meet many pro-lifers who believe their moral obligation to heal the sick of feed the hungry extends to getting laws passed or protesting on the steps of the Supreme Court. For some reason, whenever it comes to a social issue that codes as "left wing" from a 1950s perspective, the Pray Brigade seems to forget where they put their marching shoes.
Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
No one has ever before mistaken the framers of the US Constitution for fundamentalists. They considered these liberties to be the natural rights of man, not dependent upon any religious belief, and, yes, they considered those rights to be absolute. Fundamentalists, on the other hand, despise the philosophical naturalism from which the rights of man are derived; they consider such irreligious philosophy "secular humanism". Fundamentalists would gladly discard the Rights of Man in favor of the Law of God.
Religion often is politics. When a religion has political power, be it via guns or lobbyists, it's in the political arena. It then can, and should, be criticized as severely as politicians are.
Not even close. They're not rioting, bombing, or trying to kill people in any significant numbers. They're not making school girls afraid to go to school.
No, thinking you have the right to commit violence on another person over words you don't like makes you an idiot, and a savage...
I don't know. Some guy with a knife saying "I'm going to gut you, then rape your wife and daughter."?
I wouldn't like those words.
And yeah, I'd do violence unto someone saying those things to me.
It's REALLY easy to lay out a generalization.
Where most people get into trouble is in dealing with the specifics.
This is one of the reason blanket "zero tolerance" type policies are so damned stupid.
Basically things like this relieve people of the obligation to be both involved and proactive. Then they can scoot by on minimal effort being reflexive and reactionary with all sorts of travesties taking place.
Case in point.
Pope Benedict XVI (Joseph Ratzinger, current Pope) was a member of the Hitler Youth.
This makes him evil right?
WRONG.
Membership in the Hitler Youth, in 1941, was compulsory. It was required by German law.
Little Joe had exactly ZERO say in it. He wasn't an enthusiastic member, and by all accounts, never attended meetings.
He was later conscripted, right out of seminary, as a child soldier by the German Army. And did he fight for them?
Nope. When the allies drew near his station, he took the opportunity to desert.
But nowadays, we live in the world of the sound byte and the thought-free "fact".
It's just easier for assorted mental defectives to regurgitate simple bullet points to support their idiocies, without having to actually think their way through various exceptions.
Never mind that SPECIFIC information can result in a complete change of context.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
-- you go ahead and find one mention of "God" in the US Constitution... I'll wait.
Sigh. Unfortunately, we have gone through a 236-year-long exercise in Religious fanatical masturbation, with no end in sight.
During the constitutional convention, there were attempts to add Christianity to the Constitution's preamble, and they were all ignored/thrown out by the core architects (Franklin, Adams, and Madison).
During the first few decades of the new republic, several amendments were proposed to add the same; none made it out of Congress.
Eventually the religious zealots gave up and went home. Until the Civil War. Recognizing the war was a direct result of "God not being mentioned in the constitution" (yes, they actually believed that) attempts to amend the constitution to add Christianity were renewed, with the same result: epic failure.
Every couple of decades, we forget and try to do the same old thing again. As always, it fails. Thank dog.
Yeah, right.
Why is speech the problem? Why aren't the people overreacting the problem?
or else!
As an Austrian; thank you for bringing this up. People from other countries are often confused or concerned about this law, so I'd like to clear a few things up. The situation is very similar in Germany, but since I'm an Austrian, and you specifically mentioned the Irving trial, I'll concentrate on that.
The Verbotsgesetz is indeed an intentional limitation on free speech. As far as I know, this is the only major difference to what is considered free speech in the US, although we may be a bit stricter concerning incitement of popular hatred against ethnic groups. Both the Verbotsgesetz and the right to free speech are part of the Austrian constitution. To understand why we have this law, and why such an obvious limitation on what we can say or publish is tolerated by the people, you need to take a look at when and why the law was instated.
The first version became law on May 8, 1945 - the very day that WWII ended in Europe with the capitulation of the Wehrmacht. Its main and largest part deals with the process of "denazification," which was an acute necessity in order to resume normal life after the war. It was also mandated by the allied forces, who continued to occupy Austria for the next ten years. This part is now dead law, because the denazification is as complete as it's ever going to be, and also because there was an amnesty for former members of the NSDAP in 1957.
The second part of the law forbids the reformation of the NSDAP and certain organizations associated with it (like the SS, SA, etc). It also - and here's where the interesting part comes in - made national-socialist activities illegal. This includes any action which "denies, belittles, condones or tries to justify the Nazi genocide or other Nazi crimes against humanity".
I'm sure you will understand why such a law was considered necessary immediately after the war. So why didn't we repeal it later? The main reason for that was to send a strong public signal that this era is once and for all over. During the time of the Third Reich, there was a significant brain drain in Germany and Austria. Many of the most important scientific minds, as well as writers, artists, lawyers, doctors, etc, were Jewish and were forced to emigrate. It was of great importance to prove to those people that it was safe to return.
Which leaves the question: how long should this law, as a special case due to historic necessity, remain in force? This point is actually debated regularly, but unfortunately the only people who are publicly advocating to repeal it are from the extreme right. They're not at all concerned about freedom of speech in general, they just want to avoid fines and prison terms after their typical antisemitic tirades. As a result, they are consistently voted down. As for me.. as long as there are Holocaust survivors living in this country, I wouldn't want the law repealed. At some point in the future, it would probably be best to put it behind us and let the normal laws handle these cases.
By the way, this Innocence of Muslims video (idiotic as it is) would not have violated any Austrian law. There's no need to be afraid about speaking your mind in Austria, as long as you don't publicly deny or condone the Nazi war crimes. Irving knew that perfectly well. He knowingly violated the Verbotsgesetz multiple times, and as a result he had to spend 13 months in prison. It was a stupid thing to do, and it appears he has learned his lesson.
CJ
Ah, arrogance and stupidity, all in the same package. How efficient of you. -- Londo Mollari
Not being tolerant to the speech and opinions of others IS hateful to my religion.
Ahh, the bliss of ignorance. You do understand the social solutions to problems have existed very intentionally for thousands of years correct? Why would that be? Why would Socrates and Plato say those things are needed for a successful Republic?
The courts don't have time, nor is it possible to legislate social behavior all of the time. Society does have the time, and is the "normal". Does this mean that I advocate dueling or shooting someone when out of line socially? No, that would be illegal. But a punch in the mouth goes a long way in reminding someone about social behavior. And long ago, but not that long ago, courts would be extremely lenient on assault cases where a person was convicted of assaulting someone that spit on an old lady or cussed out a waitress that was not happy with their verbal sexual advances (and sometimes just toss out the case).
A fat lip goes a long way toward getting an apology and different behavior from someone acting out of the societal normal. It is not always the answer and should not be the "normal", but in some cases it's the best form of justice.
-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
It has been a while but IIRC, JA bombed the US, JA declared war on US, US declares war on JA, DE is JA ally and declares war on US, US declares war on DE, US adopts the Europe first policy.
The fact is muslims have their own countries, that is where they belong and should stay. But, they are not happy with having their own countries, you see, the goal of the Muslims is to take over ther world, destroy all other civilisations and all other religions, and only when every other religion is destroyed, will Allah be satisfied.
I am happy with the traditional ethnic composition and culture of the US, country has a ight to stop immigration, defend its borders, for any reason, including to stop the country from being overrun by invaders who want to trash the countries culture and try to bring in their religion which they then insist no one else can criticize. Enough is enough.
Look, Muslims are extremely dangerous. They do not share our values, and out of so many countries, not a single one is really a successful democracy. Violence, killing, murder of all of those who disagree with Islam unfortunately seems to be in their blood.
I also have had personal dealings with Muslims. It is not like I am ignorant. I would not trust them to tell me the time and I did feel to be in great danger.
let them wallow in their cesspit of stupidity, in the middle east, that armpit of the world. Lets just leave them alone, but keep them the hell away from me.
If you love the Muslims soo much, please, just move to Saudi Arabia, try to set up a christian church there to see how open minded and tolerant Muslims are, and feel the love. You will come running back here squealing like a banshee and will not want to be anywhere near a muslim again.
Free speech is based on the threat of violence indeed. You know NOTHING about modern American culture. Nothing.
Define "American" culture.
In the South, um....actually, yes, the politeness is due to the threat of violence. I'm from north Alabama and in my culture you don't run your mouth to people and act like a complete asshole (for long) because you will get popped in the mouth sooner or later. I have been to other parts of the country (living in Michigan now) and I've seen and heard things go down as commonplace that would have somebody outright get the shit kicked out of them if they said it to somebody where I'm from.
I recently read a book whose name and author escapes me but it actually explained this phenomenon quite well. It described how my part of the country was mostly settled by Scots (I'm about half-Scot myself) who are largely a herding culture, which the theory indicates vary from agricultural cultures in significant ways.
There was a study conducted which analyzed how southerners and northerners responded to insults, and aggravating/annoying people, etc. Basically they found that northerners are quick to make a wisecrack to the annoying person or to roll their eyes, etc. When insulted they tend to shrug it off or deflect it, not showing outward signs of stress and not acting aggressively, but in reality the insult did add to their stress levels.
Southerners on the other hand were very polite up to a point, in both words and manner, but then at a certain point when somebody pushed the line too far, they would just snap and go off on somebody, which actually reduced their stress. When insulted, the study found they tended to act more aggressively and be more confrontational, in subtle ways even like body language and mannerisms. All of this totally jives with my own experience and observations, both of my own feelings and how I've observed others of my culture acting.
So the theory is, in herding cultures the different clans will sometimes attack and steal other's animals property, or commit other acts against them, and when insulted in such a way it's important to show a strong response, otherwise it marks one as weak and likely to be victimized further. The side effect of this mentality is people tend to be a lot more polite in general, more respectful in how they address other, etc.
There are some things you see in other parts of the country that just don't happen back home, and things back home you'd never see anywhere else, like how complete strangers will wave at you when you pass them on the highway. In my town you can leave your car unlocked in a parking lot all day, or all week even, and nobody will bother it. I've seen cars break down on the side of the road and sit there for days or even a week or two untouched. You can buy something at a store and not count your change, cause people rarely ever steal it, though they might miscount. You rarely ever hear about somebody being robbed. Being an armed robber in those parts is a dangerous hobby, cause even if you get away with it for a bit sooner or later some little old lady will put a slug through your chest, and nobody but your mama will mourn you. Etc. So the theory fits and makes a lot of sense to me.
How about just mind our own buisiness?
I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
It's the "within limits" part that makes the "Free Speech Zones" so bad.
The key issue is that the "Free Speech Zones" have always been designated far away from where the event that the protesters are protesting is happening, and the mainstream media is discouraged from actually covering anything the protesters are doing. The goal of the zones is and has always been to silence protesters who's views fall outside the realm of what's deemed acceptable by the political establishment. For instance, I went to a VP debate back in 2004, and what was clearly allowed were signs saying "Kerry / Edwards" or "Bush / Cheney", but what was not allowed anywhere near a TV camera were signs saying "End the Fed" or "Leave Iraq Now".
I am officially gone from
I'll agree that maybe (under many circumstances), it isn't RIGHT to blaspheme someone else's religion. However, there's no way in hell it should ever be made illegal. No one is being physically harmed, and no individual person is being defamed.
The fact is, all organizations need to be able to handle criticism. And blasphemy is a form of criticism. Some people need to thicken their skin and do some self-examination as to why this "blasphemy" might be going on on such a scale. Hmmm Maybe some people are doing some bad things, and this is how others criticize them for it.
If your God has been blasphemed, you may be able to make a CIVIL case, IF you can demonstrate that you've been emotionally harmed by someone who specifically targeted you with the intent of causing you emotional duress. But this should NEVER be a criminal matter. Any time a criminal court would get involved, some other tangible harm must have been caused, and blashphemy would only be used as an indicator of intent, not as a criminal charge in and of itself.
An analogous situation I can think of is a case where a teen committed suicide over the treatment she got after "sexting." Ultimately, she couldn't handle the ridicule from her peers and killed herself. This is very sad, and I think that the other students who tormented her should be punished. If those other kids are to be put up on criminal charges, then it would have to be for specific things that are illegal, so that's a separate matter. However, I do think that this is a clear-cut civil case, where it can be shown that harm was intended and harm was caused, and damages should be sought. Plus, the burden of proof in a civil case is not as rigorous as in criminal cases. (BTW, I think that most copyright violation cases should be civil too. Law enforcement should only get involved if the violation is on a massive scale AND profit is being made.)
The UN can take their anti-blasphemy laws and shove it where their gods are afraid to look. I'm not going to have my freedoms abridged just to mollify some religious nut who tries to claim they've been harmed just because someone made an insensitive statement. First it's anti-religion statements, then it's 100 other things. Just wait until it becomes illegal to criticize politicians! You think the US Congress is corrupt NOW? Slippery slope.
On the October 31, 1517, Martin Luther nailed on the door of All Saints' Church in Wittenberg the paper with 85 theses http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther
Just one paper.
It started the Reformation and the most destructive war in Europe, the Thirty Years' War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Years'_War
Up to 75% of the population of Germany was killed in this war. Immeasurable suffering and desolation. Armies were annihilated. All because of one piece of paper written by a countryside monk.
Well, there are some crazy Christians, but not nearly as many, and the truly crazy ones are few and far between.
http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-one-murdered-because-of-this-image,29553/
To be fair, that is generally because they believe that legislative and governmental solutions to heal the sick and feed the poor tend not to work.
No, I don't think so. That is just their justification for being unwilling to pay taxes to actually do what their religion says they should be doing.
Religion in and by itself, in whatever form it may rear its head, is contemptible and to be overcome as a relic from the Bronze Age.. I say with Richard Dawkins: "No, I am not going to respect other people's religion. I may and will respect other people - but religion, no way".
Religous speak to God. Insane are spoken to by God. When all shut up, one can finally hear Shostakovich in peace
What a miserable world to live in.
Stick Men
If we start banning all speech that someone threatens to respond to violently, that only gives those who would resort to violence the ability to silence their opposition. I for one would prefer that those who are opposed to the advancement of groups who use violence as a political tool not have their voice taken away. Also, jokes are jokes, and humor is universal. People need to realize that offensive jokes are not a war on their beliefs. I don't think there is anyone who hasn't made a joke that was offensive to someone else, and probably wouldn't like if if the reaction of those people offended was to commit acts of violence against them or people who have the misfortune to share ethnic traits with them which make them a target for such overreaction.
>Remember the Christian Whackjobs who blew themselves to bits in the middle of a marketplace?
I'll see your acts of terrorism and raise you using child soldiers to do it. Say hello to Uganda's Joseph Kony, leader of the Lord's Resistance Army.
>What about the widespread rioting when the state helped finance a picture of their God in a jar of urine?
Oooh, did I mention that it's the same Uganda where legislators have repeatedly proposed making homosexuality a capital offense? Three guesses what religion those legislators follow!
>How about when the mormons beheaded their prisoner on film and published it?
Replace "beheaded" with a lynch mob raiding his home and shooting him to death, and you have a description of what *other Christians* did to the founder of Mormonism himself, Joseph Smith.