Foxconn Thinks the iPhone 5 Is a Pain

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Foxconn Thinks the iPhone 5 Is a Pain

Posted by samzenpus on Wednesday October 17, 2012 @11:46AM from the hard-work dept.

pigrabbitbear writes "China's largest electronics manufacturer, the already-loathed Foxconn, is now taking the fall for the iPhone 5 shortage that's annoyed consumers and worried investors in recent weeks. What's the holdup? They don't have enough parts? They're training new line workers? They're too busy trying to regain control of their factories after employees started rioting? Nah. According to the company, the iPhone 5 is just a huge pain to put together. That bit about the riots is a little bit true, too, though."

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Ug by timeOday · 2012-10-17 11:51 · Score: 4, Informative

The quote from the unnamed Foxconn source is interesting, if true. (Good luck swapping the hard drive (flash) or battery like I have with my 80GB iPod!)
But this story has so much "attitude" it's unpleasant to get through.
1. Re:Ug by jhoegl · 2012-10-17 13:14 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  I agree, unconfirmed sources should be taken seriously and without question.
  *Disclaimer - I hate Apple and all Apple related products. I disagree with their business philosophy of a walled garden, and think that only religious zealots should buy them.
2. Re:Ug by Dahamma · 2012-10-17 13:56 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  I have no interest in defending Foxconn or Apple for the conditions in their factories, but yes, this article (and others on that site) is so flawed and snarky it's barely worth crediting.
  My favorite gems:
  The company had been running an internship program that put 14- to 16-year-old children on the factory floor
  And the link they reference in that quote (to anther article on their OWN site) says it was vocational interns (16+) and college students (18+). So more accurate would be "16 to 22". You'd think they could quote their own articles correctly.
  Also from that article referenced: The suicide rate at Foxconn is still lower than that of the general population in China, but striking for its concentration among a group of workers at a single company.
  Wha?? Someone failed basic statistics. If the rate is lower over a population (where "rate" = incidents/population), how is the concentration (eh, also incidents/population) striking? In fact, it's only striking because of the *anecdotes* sensationalized by stories like this...
  Basic human rights and working conditions in China are a big problem, but it doesn't help the cause to make up facts and statistics that don't exist...
3. Re:Ug by garaged · 2012-10-17 14:26 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Contextualizing, it is likely that work environment should discourage suicide, maybe the rate is alarming compared against similar factories
  
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4. Re:Ug by JakartaDean · 2012-10-17 15:05 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  The company had been running an internship program that put 14- to 16-year-old children on the factory floor
  And the link they reference in that quote (to anther article on their OWN site) says it was vocational interns (16+) and college students (18+). So more accurate would be "16 to 22".
  I don't want to defend the authors, but Foxconn did recently admit that some of it vocational interns were 14 - 16 years old. It was on the BBC, among others.
  
  --
  The subject who is truly loyal to the Chief Magistrate will neither advise nor submit to arbitrary measures (Junius)
5. Re:Ug by Kreigaffe · 2012-10-17 17:31 · Score: 2
  
  Actually the statistics are fine, there. Let's say the average rate over China's population is 5%. At a Foxconn factory, let's say that overall their employees have a 3% suicide rate -- except if you focus specifically on their production line workers, who have a 10% suicide rate, with the overall rate for the factory dropping because the rate among execs, secretaries and janitors is only 1%.
  That would be striking, to have a group with similar economic conditions and the same work conditions and similar living conditions, etc.. to all share a significantly higher suicide rate than the population-at-large. It would also be striking to see what groups within the factory have lower rates.
  Anyway, all irrelevant, but interesting
  
  --
  ... still waiting for this free-as-in-beer free beer I keep hearing about. :|
6. Re:Ug by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 18:21 · Score: 0
  
  The suicide rate at Foxconn can't reasonably be compared to that of China and should rather be compared to that of other Chinese factory workers. The Chinese rate will also include groups that are much more likely to commit suicide, e.g. unemployed people or old people who are lonely or don't want to burden their families.
7. Re:Ug by beelsebob · 2012-10-17 18:52 · Score: 1
  
  Except that's highly unlikely to be true, given that Foxconn works basically by having an army of production line workers. It would be impossible for the production line worker figure to be much above their average, because the sheer volume of them would drag the average up along with them.
8. Re:Ug by wisty · 2012-10-17 19:56 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  Is that Chinese years or Western ones? Because a Chinese who says they are 14 is actually 13 (they start counting at 1, like Fortran).
9. Re:Ug by Xest · 2012-10-17 20:25 · Score: 1
  
  "Wha?? Someone failed basic statistics. If the rate is lower over a population (where "rate" = incidents/population), how is the concentration (eh, also incidents/population) striking? In fact, it's only striking because of the *anecdotes* sensationalized by stories like this..."
  If you're going to be snarky yourself you should at least consider a bit more whether they are definitely wrong.
  I suspect they are not, the point they are probably making is that if the suicide rate is say 5% amongst the general population, but only 1% in the industry of tech manufacturing yet Foxconn's rate is 3% then it is striking, it means that something at Foxconn is leading to a higher suicide rate than in other people of a similar income level and job role.
  China is a massive country with a massively varied demographic. When you take the overall suicide rate for such a large and varied demographic you're basically lumping the suicide rate for tech billionaires in with the suicide rate for barely making a living wage pig farmers. To find out if a particular company is doing good or bad it makes much more sense to compare them to their peers - bear in mind that the number of people in China employed in this industry is in itself as numerous as many small European nations so simply taking workers of this one particular industry in China still provides you with a perfectly meaningful sample size whereas using the rate of the average population of such a large sample size as you did results in inevitable information loss - it's too broad a spread of demographics to obtain anything meaningful from it other than what it is- the average suicide rate for China, and whilst comparisons against that rate for individual demographics are perfectly valid, extrapolating that to mean that somehow Foxconn is doing a good job of looking after it's workers is where you have crossed the line in inferring something that simply cannot be inferred from the information given- you're jumping to a conclusion that the data simply does not provide. The authors of the article can however, if they're comparing against the industry average, make the claim that they have.
10. Re:Ug by RivenAleem · 2012-10-17 20:59 · Score: 1
  
  Here in Ireland we have in some schools a "Transition Year" where students either work on projects or get work experience. Where I work (a pharma company) we often get some of these kids in for a few weeks or 2 months on a form of internship. I can't be 100% certain (I don't work in HR) but it's quite possible that they might be 14-16 years old.
  Now I know for a fact that the kids that come here dno't do any "real" work, nothing more than photocopying or filing or observing some activities performed by professionals, but without all the facts it is easy for someone to say "OMG they are employing underage kids in a vocational internship".
  A look at the BBC article suggests that Foxconn addressed these and were going to terminate anyone responsible for this. It leads me to think that yes they were doing more than simple photocopying while on an internship there.
  Still, I'd be very careful about what people print to get clicks being slightly on the sensationalist side.
11. Re:Ug by gnasher719 · 2012-10-17 21:00 · Score: 1
  
  I don't want to defend the authors, but Foxconn did recently admit that some of it vocational interns were 14 - 16 years old. It was on the BBC [bbc.co.uk], among others.
  16 years old is perfectly legal. In China and in other countries. If you look at below 16 years, that would be illegal. You can go to Apple's web site, where they report what they have found about employment of underage (below 16 workers), and you'll find it happens for various reasons. One reason being that young people who are almost 16 like to make money, just like people who _are_ 16, and sometimes lie about their age, sometimes it isn't checked properly, and in very few cases it was not checked intentionally. Apple has cancelled contracts with companies where they felt this happened intentionally and not by mistake.
12. Re:Ug by 19061969 · 2012-10-17 21:12 · Score: 2
  
  Much like I did in 1980s UK. I was sent on a work experience programme when I was 14 over summer and quite enjoyed my experience and didn't feel exploited even when looking back after several decades of work. It was about as much real work as my daughter playing with a toy kitchen is real cooking.
  I'm not saying that Foxconn's younger interns are not working the typical 30-hour / day, 8 days/week-type deathmarch that articles like this seem to propound, but I'm not saying it's not either. This article needs something more than just whispers and hints of accusations.
  
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  bang goes my karma... again...
13. Re:Ug by 19061969 · 2012-10-17 21:19 · Score: 1
  
  Quoth: "I suspect they are not, the point they are probably making is that if the suicide rate is say 5% amongst the general population, but only 1% in the industry of tech manufacturing yet Foxconn's rate is 3% then it is striking, " If the article did that, then that would be fine and definitely news-worthy. But the problem is that they haven't. The only comparison they've made is with a national baseline. It doesn't seem good practice to assume that that statistic must be the worst-case: I'd really need see the facts (i.e., suicide rate amongst similar factory workers) before making a conclusion.
  
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  bang goes my karma... again...
14. Re:Ug by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 21:33 · Score: 0
  
  Contextualizing, it is likely that work environment should discourage suicide, maybe the rate is alarming compared against similar factories
  It's not. The reason it gets a lot of press is because the company has housing at the facility. They don't have any higher of a rate than other factories using a similar setup, and the rate is actually lower than at similar types of factories which don't have housing on campus for the workers and their families.
15. Re:Ug by mellyra · 2012-10-17 21:47 · Score: 1
  
  Wha?? Someone failed basic statistics. If the rate is lower over a population (where "rate" = incidents/population), how is the concentration (eh, also incidents/population) striking? In fact, it's only striking because of the *anecdotes* sensationalized by stories like this...
  Foxconn workers are not a representative sample of the total population of China.
  The suicide rate at Foxconn may very well be above average for people of the age-group, gender balance and socio-economic status Foxconn workers fall into while still being below the nation-wide average.
  According to a paper cited in the relevant wikipedia article "rural suicides outnumber urban suicides by a 3:1 ratio" so we would strongly expect the suicide rate at (urban) Foxconn to be low compared to the nation-wide average even if working conditions are abysmal.
16. Re:Ug by marcello_dl · 2012-10-17 23:47 · Score: 1
  
  I agree, unconfirmed sources should be taken seriously and without question.
  In fact, Apple official response to Foxconn is: you're building it wrong.
  
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  ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
17. Re:Ug by MachineShedFred · 2012-10-18 00:01 · Score: 1
  
  Oh God, you mean that teenagers get jobs over there, just like they do in the US?
  FOR SHAME!
  
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  Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
18. Re:Ug by helix2301 · 2012-10-18 00:55 · Score: 1
  
  Under the Commander Taco day's an article like this would have never been posted.
  
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  http://www.thetechnologygeek.org
19. Re:Ug by Volntyr · 2012-10-18 02:42 · Score: 1
  
  The suicide rate at Foxconn is still lower than that of the general population in China, but striking for its concentration among a group of workers at a single company
  Why should any company, electronic or otherwise, actually have a statistic for a Suicide rate? I can understand such a rate for a general population but for an actual company?
20. Re:Ug by Ash-Fox · 2012-10-18 03:34 · Score: 1
  
  I thought it was "You're holding the components wrong." while assembling?
  
  --
  Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
21. Re:Ug by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-18 04:04 · Score: 0
  
  It's also worthwhile to point out that "basic human rights and working conditions in China" (despite as originally reported Foxconn is part of Taiwan, NOT China) is also a misnomer. While there are certainly some issues of abuse, the reality is that working conditions in China are certainly not to the standards of American workers but many Chinese workers are ok with that. Many of these Chinese workers are poor uneducated peasants from the countryside in China, who come in to the cities to work, knowing that they can earn far more money working at these factories than they can working on their farms at home. Typical Chinese culture has the children become adults and then provide and care for their parents, but this can be difficult in the countryside. Many of these workers are quite happy to work 16 hours a day, 6 or even 7 days a week, and then go crash at their dorms and eat at the cafeterias provided by their employers because they earn lots of money they can then send home to support their families. This care for their families and support is seen by the Chinese as morally good, because putting your obligation to family and community ahead of your own good is considered ethical behavior in Chinese society.
  Having worked in China and seen these scenarios first hand, having talked with some of these peasants as well as managers in many of these companies, I can tell you that this is much more common than the abuse typically bourght up in these discussions. While I do support improved conditions for workers in all countries and know and respect many liberals that I consider friends, the people who make these sorts of judgements against Chinese companies are clearly bigoted and uneducated about Chinese society, and earn the term "bleeding heart liberal" and all the derision that comes with it.
22. Re:Ug by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-18 04:59 · Score: 0
  
  You aren't capable of coherent thought so why bother?
23. Re:Ug by Plumpaquatsch · 2012-10-18 05:23 · Score: 1
  
  The company had been running an internship program that put 14- to 16-year-old children on the factory floor
  And the link they reference in that quote (to anther article on their OWN site) says it was vocational interns (16+) and college students (18+). So more accurate would be "16 to 22".
  I don't want to defend the authors, but Foxconn did recently admit that some of it vocational interns were 14 - 16 years old. It was on the BBC, among others.
  Funny thing: Samsung still denies that their Chinese subcontractors employ underage workers (not interns), even after several reports. http://gizmodo.com/5940903/report-worker-abuse-and-underage-employment-at-six-more-samsung-factories
  
  --
  Of course news about a fake are Fake News.
24. Re:Ug by mcgrew · 2012-10-18 05:28 · Score: 1
  
  they start counting at 1, like Fortran
  In Thailand (I assume China is very similar even though the Thais hate the Chinese), the day you are born you are one year old rather than zero years old -- they're counting the time you were in the womb.
  
  --
  Free Martian Whores!
25. Re:Ug by Plumpaquatsch · 2012-10-18 06:00 · Score: 1
  
  Foxconn workers are not a representative sample of the total population of China.
  The suicide rate at Foxconn may very well be above average for people of the age-group, gender balance and socio-economic status Foxconn workers fall into while still being below the nation-wide average.
  According to a paper cited in the relevant wikipedia article "rural suicides outnumber urban suicides by a 3:1 ratio" so we would strongly expect the suicide rate at (urban) Foxconn to be low compared to the nation-wide average even if working conditions are abysmal.
  Well, there have been no reports of suicides at Foxconn for over a year now, so what conclusion do we draw from this fact?
  
  --
  Of course news about a fake are Fake News.
26. Re:Ug by Dahamma · 2012-10-18 06:15 · Score: 1
  
  Except those are not the numbers - they are trivial to look up, so why guess? And your guesses are absurd, 1 in 20 people in China committing suicide per year!?! That would be 60 million suicides a year.
  330,000 employees at the Shenzen plant, and 10 suicides in one year. That's 0.003% for the factory. The national average is 33 per 100k, or 0.032%. That's 10x higher than at the plant. Not to mention, something like 99% of the employees at Foxconn are factory workers. If administrative rates were lower it would be completely irrelevant to the overall average.
  So, if anything, what's really striking about the data is how much LOWER it is. Don't think that was the point of the article, though.
27. Re:Ug by Dahamma · 2012-10-18 06:29 · Score: 1
  
  I suspect they are not, the point they are probably making is that if the suicide rate is say 5% amongst the general population, but only 1% in the industry of tech manufacturing yet Foxconn's rate is 3% then it is striking, it means that something at Foxconn is leading to a higher suicide rate than in other people of a similar income level and job role.
  And if you are going to try to correct someone, why wouldn't you at least use real numbers rather than absurd made up ones? 5% suicide rate in China? That would be 60 million people a year! The real numbers are 0.003% for Foxconn, 0.032% nationally. 10x difference. If you look only at similar demographics (urban young adults) it's lower overall, but still about 4x higher than Foxconn averages.
  So, not, that was NOT the point they are "probably making" (or if they were, that's even worse as it has no support). They had access to the same statistics I just provided (as you did, if you had bothered to look them up before ranting). That's what I find annoying - does journalism really have to be so bad these days that readers have to assume the article has errors or lies and fact check all information themselves!?
28. Re:Ug by Dahamma · 2012-10-18 06:43 · Score: 1
  
  Ok, I'm tired of defending my original simple point, as it sounds like I'm defending Apple or Foxconn now, both of which I think are responsible for some pretty crappy working conditions. But I suppose I hate intentionally misleading journalism through misuse of statistics (or /. posters who keep arguing my statistical point with little more accuracy than the article!) even more...
  Anyway, I looked up some stats, too - your number is also not the right value to compare, because the rural suicide rate is higher among elderly than the young. Best I could find for young, urban population was something like 50% over the average. But say it is 3:1 - as the overall national rate in 2010 was 10x higher (33/100k or 0.033% vs 10/300k, or 0.003%) than the Foxconn rate - 3:1 would still make Foxconn rates more than 3x lower. Still not "striking concentration"...
29. Re:Ug by Ash-Fox · 2012-10-18 06:50 · Score: 1
  
  You aren't capable of coherent thought so why bother?
  Tell me more.
  
  --
  Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
30. Re:Ug by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-18 06:52 · Score: 0
  
  I thought you were going to tell us more on how you use ARPANET there.
31. Re:Ug by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-18 06:54 · Score: 0
  
  You wouldn't comprehend it. You're too dumb.
32. Re:Ug by Ash-Fox · 2012-10-18 07:14 · Score: 1
  
  I thought you were going to tell us more on how you use ARPANET there.
  Tell me more.
  
  --
  Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
33. Re:Ug by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-18 13:25 · Score: 0
  
  No.
Re:You know what else is a pain? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 12:01 · Score: 0, Troll

Na. Only if she has an anal fissure.
Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Grayhand · 2012-10-17 12:02 · Score: 3, Insightful

Why not build them here? Yes they will cost slightly more but obviously given the rabid demand they haven't crossed the price point that drives away customers. The bigger issue is in spite dividends and buy backs and such Apple still has over 100 billion in their mattress and they don't have a clue what to do with it! Even with the increased production costs it's doubtful it would dent the 100 billion in the bank while it would mean hiring 500,000 new people that might turn into iPhone customers! It worked for Henry Ford. Being a good citizen could result in a windfall instead of reduced profits. Apple can't go broke at this point so why not help their mother country out for once? They get the added benefit of getting rid of two weeks in shipment delays due to having to ship them from China. They could also get them to Europe quicker so it's a win/win!
1. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 12:07 · Score: 0
  
  Apple could ship them by air and still make a bundle off their 30% profit margins on their products. That only add 20+ hours to the shipping time.
2. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 12:10 · Score: 0, Insightful
  
  Because even if the fans are rabbid, they're not going to pay $2500 for an iPhone vs $900 for a Samsung Galaxy SIII. You don't make money by throwing good after bad. There are good reasons to stop outsourcing manufacturing to the 3rd world, but it needs to be all companies on an equal footing....and it takes time to retool. Your idea is an immature fantasy in the literal sense unfortunately.
3. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by future+assassin · 2012-10-17 12:15 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  Why not build them here?
  
  Because no one would do the job for $40 or less per hour with full benefits except for migrant/immigrant workers. Then those that didn't want the job would bitch how migrant/immigrant are taking their job. Mean while they don't actually want those jobs.
  
  --
  by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
4. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 12:17 · Score: 0
  
  Don't they fly all of their parts over here? I believe I read a supply chain article about that.
5. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by MikeKD · 2012-10-17 12:25 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  Why not build them here?
  Because the rest of the supply chain (LCDs, RAM, etc) is still in East Asia?
6. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by hawguy · 2012-10-17 12:26 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  Why not build them here? Yes they will cost slightly more but obviously given the rabid demand they haven't crossed the price point that drives away customers. The bigger issue is in spite dividends and buy backs and such Apple still has over 100 billion in their mattress and they don't have a clue what to do with it! Even with the increased production costs it's doubtful it would dent the 100 billion in the bank while it would mean hiring 500,000 new people that might turn into iPhone customers! It worked for Henry Ford. Being a good citizen could result in a windfall instead of reduced profits. Apple can't go broke at this point so why not help their mother country out for once? They get the added benefit of getting rid of two weeks in shipment delays due to having to ship them from China. They could also get them to Europe quicker so it's a win/win!
  A Chinese Foxconn worker makes around $400/month, $4800 year. A worker in the USA would cost about 10 times as much once benefits are included.
  If it takes 500,000 chinese workers to make the phone, it would probably take 600,000 - 750,000 USA workers because USA workers aren't going to put in the same amount of overtime. But it if takes 500,000....500,000 times $50,000/year is $25B/year in labor costs alone and ignores the billions it would cost to build the factories.
7. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by wierd_w · 2012-10-17 12:26 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  Bullshit.
  They could probably do it for around 20/hr in oklahoma. Many assembly work jobs go for that rate. The issue is unions. Since apple would be establishing a new manufacturing plant, and would come union free to start, they just have to keep it that way. Pay people on time, don't subject them to cancer causing chemicals, and give them proper work hours, and you are basically golden.
  40$/hr doing assembly work?
  I do fucking CAD/CAM and get paid way less than that!
8. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Shikaku · 2012-10-17 12:29 · Score: 2
  
  Where are you pulling your numbers from? I would like to know how you came to your price figures if they actually did that.
  I don't care if you were sarcastic, I'm serious. I would like to know what the cost difference would be if the iPhone 5 was made in the USA versus China.
9. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by AdamWill · 2012-10-17 12:37 · Score: 1
  
  "If it takes 500,000 chinese workers to make the phone"
  It doesn't. Foxconn makes all sorts of other stuff too. They don't have half a million people doing nothing but crank out iPhones.
10. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by future+assassin · 2012-10-17 12:38 · Score: 1
  
  Bullshit.
  They could probably do it for around 20/hr in oklahoma. Many assembly work jobs go for that rate. The issue is unions. Since apple would be establishing a new manufacturing plant, and would come union free to start, they just have to keep it that way. Pay people on time, don't subject them to cancer causing chemicals, and give them proper work hours, and you are basically golden.
  40$/hr doing assembly work?
  I do fucking CAD/CAM and get paid way less than that!
  Riiight that why all the assembly jobs are still in the US.
  
  --
  by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
11. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 12:43 · Score: 0
  
  It's my understanding that labor costs are only part of the issue. Managing the extremely complex supply chain is a larger problem. Many of the parts come from Asian. Foxconn is conveniently located in Asia, near the supply chain. Foxconn knows how to work with the suppliers and can manage that aspect of the business far more efficiently than any American company could ever dream to do today.
12. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 12:47 · Score: 1
  
  This assumes an "all or nothing" kinda of deal which isn't necessary.
  The EU tends to tax finished products significantly higher than it does components or parts. Hence my mostly China/Japan made TV is "Assembled in Belgium", which really just means they put the screen and the power supply into the casing. Apple could do something similar. They don't need to spend billions to essentially rebuild Foxconn and its supply chain. They could simply start by shipping in the parts and having it assembled in the USA. Once that is up and running other companies can start talking to Apple about moving more parts of the process to the USA in an order and time that makes sense.
13. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 12:48 · Score: 1
  
  $25B/year in labor costs alone and ignores the billions it would cost to build the factories.
  So its down to the question: Does industry exist to serve humanity or does humanity exist to serve industry ?
  Stuffing billions into a mattress sounds more like the latter being the mode of operation.
14. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by squiggleslash · 2012-10-17 12:49 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  OK, even if you accept the wages arguement, the Chinese will accept pay far below US minimum wage (around $8/hour in most states, last time I looked, although that was a while ago.)
  But to be honest, the major reason is that companies like Foxconn are extremely good at getting an assembly line for a new product set up in a very short space of time. This was the reason the Raspberry Pi, for example, was outsourced to a non-Western country - Western manufacturers could match the price, but would take months to set up their production lines. Non-Western manufacturers could get everything set up in weeks.
  
  --
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15. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by hawguy · 2012-10-17 12:50 · Score: 1
  
  $25B/year in labor costs alone and ignores the billions it would cost to build the factories.
  So its down to the question: Does industry exist to serve humanity or does humanity exist to serve industry ?
  Stuffing billions into a mattress sounds more like the latter being the mode of operation.
  Which humans are you talking about? The Foxconn worker making $400/month is probably as happy to have a paycheck as the guy in the USA sweeping the floors of McDonalds for $2000/month.
16. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by wierd_w · 2012-10-17 12:56 · Score: 2
  
  Not all assebly work is done overseas.
  A noteworthy example is in aerospace. My employer hires at around 10/hr for unskilled assembly work.
  The problem is that china can do your assembly work for 2/hr or cheaper. It isn't that nobody wants to do the work. Corporations see dollarsigns, and are addicted to essentially slave labor wages.
17. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by MoronGames · 2012-10-17 13:04 · Score: 1
  
  Replace "Apple" with almost any other electronics company's name and your paragraph will still be true.
  
  --
  hey!
18. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Mike+Buddha · 2012-10-17 13:04 · Score: 1
  
  All these kids today don't remember the paeans to the soul-killing, life-destroying assembly line jobs that were everywhere in the 70's and 80's. How quickly our country forgets.
  
  --
  by Mike Buddha -- Someday the mountain might get him, but the law never will.
19. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 13:04 · Score: 0
  
  Stole their OS. Not sure if you're just nerd raging or don't understand open source licenses that aren't the GPL...
20. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by lister+king+of+smeg · 2012-10-17 13:12 · Score: 2
  
  Because apple doesn't give a shit about their mother country... Apple however, does give a shit about money, that's why they stole their OS, stole all their designs and have outsourced everything that can be outsourced to companies that gladly will push little kids to the limit and over it (suicide)... Apple doesn't care about you. Apple does only care about your money. And it's willing to do everything for it, including the indirect murder of kids.
  How do you steal code that is under a BSD license (FreeBSD, and Mach mircrokernal)? Or did you mean NextStep which they bought?
  
  --
  ---Saying gnome 3 is better than windows 8 not so much a compliment as it is damning with light praise.
21. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Xacid · 2012-10-17 13:19 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  There was a slashdot article a while back explaining exactly what that difference would be. It was somewhere in the ballpark of $20-40 more per device.
  Apple's comment regarding the topic "we're in the business of making phones, not creating jobs".
22. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by scheme · 2012-10-17 13:19 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  Where are you pulling your numbers from? I would like to know how you came to your price figures if they actually did that.
  I don't care if you were sarcastic, I'm serious. I would like to know what the cost difference would be if the iPhone 5 was made in the USA versus China.
  There have been studies that estimates are about $30 to $160 more per iphone in costs ( http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-iphone-manufacturing-cost-foxconn-2012-4) . That means apple's margin for the devices would go from $452 in gross profits to around $293 per iphone. It'd cost more but wouldn't be outrageously more.
  
  --
  "When you sit with a nice girl for two hours, it seems like two minutes. When you sit on a hot stove for two minutes, it
23. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by SolitaryMan · 2012-10-17 13:20 · Score: 1
  
  From 'shit-i've-heard-on-tv-dept'. I remember in Daily Show John was quoting some sources that claimed it would be like 20% more expensive.
  Sorry, not gonna google for that :)
  
  --
  May Peace Prevail On Earth
24. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 13:21 · Score: 0
  
  Because of a huge tax advantage.
25. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by longacre · 2012-10-17 13:22 · Score: 1
  
  They do ship most of them by air. FedEx made a shit ton off the iPhone 5 launch.
  
  --
  Airplane Photos, Airline News, Planespotting Guides
26. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 13:24 · Score: 0
  
  Yes because foxconn spends so much time retooling, i mean emptying bags of components in plastic bins is so damned difficult and time consuming.
27. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by prisoner-of-enigma · 2012-10-17 13:34 · Score: 1
  
  Corporations see dollarsigns, and are addicted to essentially slave labor wages.
  You act as if consumers are oblivious to those same dollar signs. They are not. Most people who buy Apple products know they're somewhat overpriced to begin with and they're OK with that so long as it's only mildly above the price of competing products. Run the price of that iPhone up a bit and Apple will sell fewer of them or take a smaller profit margin (or both). People vote with their wallets, and Apple is in the business of making phones and making money, not a jobs program and not a welfare program.
  
  --
  In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
28. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by santax · 2012-10-17 13:40 · Score: 1, Informative
  
  You don't steal the code... you steal the guy that is writing it... John Hubbard. Apple, that firm that invents nothing, but steals everything (Jobs said so himself!) and became filthy rich with FreeBSD, offered John Hubbard so much money he could not resist. There is 1 guy working at apple that has access to the freebsd source (with a account...) and there is 1 guy who has made a couple of contributions since... I wonder who that guy is. a 100 billion company that owns everything to BSD, has bought away the mainguy behind it, and now has 1 guy that sometimes contributes back.... That is how you steal from a BSD license my friend. Apple is the end of innovation and should be fought with fire.
29. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Charliemopps · 2012-10-17 13:50 · Score: 0
  
  You're seriously naive. Labor costs are a miniscule part of why they are manufactured in China. Most importantly is likely the fact that they can just dump all their waste in the local river. Then you have the benefit of the factory being surrounded by the largest, and one of the most oppressive governments on earth... Spying on that factory is difficult and any workers that get out of line get disappeared for making the proletariat look bad. Shipping form China is dirt cheap. I order stuff off of Alibaba (Basically the Chinese version of Amazon or eBay) all the time and items much larger than an iPhone I can get here in under a week for about $6. If you were shipping a few thousands iPhones at a time I'm guessing shipping costs would be less than a $1 a phone and you could get it here overnight.
30. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 13:54 · Score: 0
  
  How did this get +5 informative? His statement assumes the transition from Chinese labor to American labor is nothing more than moving the plant. No automation or mechanization bringing it to America. It would take less workers in the US not more. Your statement is outrageous and shows you know nothing of manufacturing differences between the US and China. It would cost around $70 more per iPhone to make it in the US. Your super inflated number of 100,000 to 250,000 more employees wouldn't make that possible. So who knows less? You, or the people whose lives depend on understanding the economics.
  Probably you, right?
31. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 14:02 · Score: 0
  
  Don't listen to Hodgman; he's a PC!
32. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Karlt1 · 2012-10-17 14:03 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  "you steal the guy that is writing it... John Hubbard. Apple, that firm that invents nothing, but steals everything (Jobs said so himself!) and became filthy rich with FreeBSD, offered John Hubbard so much money he could not resist...... has bought away the mainguy behind it"
  So you steal stuff by paying for it?
33. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by wierd_w · 2012-10-17 14:13 · Score: 1
  
  Consumers will buy whatever is the cheapest on the price-quality curve, almost without exception.
  Cheap foriegn labor radically reduces prices. What one company does to get an edge, *all* companies will due, do to consumer trending and market domination by the initial adopter.
  This is a race to the bottom. The only way to undercut now is literaly slavery.
  Rather than see it through your view (people won't pay those prices now!), see it from mine. (We shouldn't have ever offered those prices via cheap labor to begin with, and used economies of scale to drive down price instead.)
  I am NOT a fan of globalism. (But that doesn't mean I am a protectionist. I simply feel that it is unsustainable to expect a high wage economy to purchase high wage products indefinately, when employment rates in that high wage economy drop like rocks, as all the jobs move overseas, due to people chasing low low prices. The result muddies the market terribly, and I really don't see how it can be sustained. In the short term it makes you filthy ass rich. In the long term it causes protracted recessions.)
34. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by AvitarX · 2012-10-17 14:14 · Score: 1
  
  I don't believe that's true though.
  I look at apple tv, and nexus q, I look at the prices, and come to a very different conclusion.
  the 30-40 dollar numbers are leaving something out.
  
  --
  Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
35. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 14:17 · Score: 0
  
  40$/hr doing assembly work?
  I do fucking CAD/CAM and get paid way less than that!
  Seriously? Unless you are a few years out of school, seek new employment fast. You could be making this in an auto union easily.
36. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by AvitarX · 2012-10-17 14:17 · Score: 2
  
  Apple has said It's not the money, It's the oppressive hours, and people sleeping on campus where they can get awoken from slumber, drink a cup of coffee and start a 12 hour shift that makes China so good for manufacturing.
  good luck getting work like that in the western world (we are privledged to have better conditions here).
  
  --
  Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
37. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 14:32 · Score: 0
  
  How is this bullshit? If you can do better, then compete with Foxconn. Do it, I'm waiting.
38. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 14:33 · Score: 0
  
  Darn, if only I could steal something by paying the guy who wrote it, how unfair to the rest of us who never paid him.
  Are you 14?
39. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 14:35 · Score: 1
  
  Why not build them here?
  Because the rest of the supply chain (LCDs, RAM, etc) is still in East Asia?
  It doesn't have to be. I work for a local company that could easily supply them with everything they need, right in the middle of the US.
40. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by highacnumber · 2012-10-17 14:43 · Score: 1
  
  It doesn't take anywhere near 500,00 workers to build those phones.
41. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by wierd_w · 2012-10-17 15:04 · Score: 1
  
  My employer offers other intangibles.
  Namely, I work unsupervised, and have kick ass digs.
  We aren't union, and don't get union grade pay. I actually disfavor unions.
  I could easily get 40/hr, but am content not to. Work conditions are very relaxed and enjoyable.
42. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 15:04 · Score: 0
  
  I'm pretty sure most 14 year old kids aren't that retarded.
43. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 15:04 · Score: 1
  
  Are you crazy? In what world is a 35% drop in profitability anything other than HUGE??!!!
44. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by hawguy · 2012-10-17 15:12 · Score: 1
  
  How did this get +5 informative? His statement assumes the transition from Chinese labor to American labor is nothing more than moving the plant. No automation or mechanization bringing it to America. It would take less workers in the US not more.
  Well yeah, it's not just moving the plant that does the assembly, it's moving plants for a lot of the suppliers too. Besides the cheap labor costs, one of the big strengths of Chinese manufacturing is the proximity to suppliers.
  The reason there would be more automation in an American plan is because automation is cheaper than American workers, but not necessarily cheaper than Chinese workers. So while automation may reduce worker headcount, it wouldn't necessarily result in a proportional decrease in costs. Though it's not clear how much of the assembly can be automated.
  
  Your super inflated number of 100,000 to 250,000 more employees wouldn't make that possible.
  As someone that's worked in a union shop, I can guarantee that American workers are not going to put up with the 20 hours of overtime that Foxconn workers are reportedly subject to week after week (and even if they did, it would be cheaper to add on an entire shift of workers than pay one shift of workers 20 hours of overtime), so an American plant is going to need more workers for the same amount of work.
45. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by tibit · 2012-10-17 15:39 · Score: 1
  
  LOL. Care to name this mythical manufacturing giant, then?
  
  --
  A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
46. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by __aaltlg1547 · 2012-10-17 15:39 · Score: 1
  
  That's almost irrelevant. We have ships.
47. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by tibit · 2012-10-17 15:42 · Score: 1
  
  Ah, but you see, in first world you automate a lot of such production because it's cheaper. The setup is costlier, but repeatability goes up vs. unpredictableness of tired labor force, and longer term you can actually make it cheaper than in asia. Once your setup is done, adding robot cells to the line only costs you amortization -- capital equipment can be leased and scaled with demand. Sure Foxconn can set up stuff in a couple of weeks because they have next to no programmable machinery outside of various test cells, it's mostly all manual labor with some custom but simple tools. In the U.S., if you get a bunch of dedicated manufacturing people, they could set up automation about just as quick, given proper resources.
  
  --
  A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
48. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 15:43 · Score: 0
  
  As opposed to Samsung who creates military weapons systems and designs and constructs oil refineries. Yeah they care about you a lot.
  I cannot fucking believe you faggot shitheads have modded this up to 5 Insightful. I see the Twitter generation is now in control here. Enjoy the sewer.
49. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Xacid · 2012-10-17 15:44 · Score: 1
  
  I'm not sure if I follow your comparison. Mind clarifying?
50. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by phantomfive · 2012-10-17 15:54 · Score: 1
  
  Apple used to build computers in America. You might remember those days, when everyone complained about how expensive Apple hardware was. People aren't willing to pay more for Made in America products, we've seen that as true for decades.
  
  That's not entirely true, one important demographic does buy Made in America: politicians.
  
  --
  "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
51. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by hawguy · 2012-10-17 15:58 · Score: 1
  
  Ah, but you see, in first world you automate a lot of such production because it's cheaper. The setup is costlier, but repeatability goes up vs. unpredictableness of tired labor force, and longer term you can actually make it cheaper than in asia. Once your setup is done, adding robot cells to the line only costs you amortization -- capital equipment can be leased and scaled with demand. Sure Foxconn can set up stuff in a couple of weeks because they have next to no programmable machinery outside of various test cells, it's mostly all manual labor with some custom but simple tools. In the U.S., if you get a bunch of dedicated manufacturing people, they could set up automation about just as quick, given proper resources.
  Sure, if they have months of leadtime, they can automate nearly anything. But they need that leadtime - no last minute changes, like swapping out a glass screen for a plastic screen. When Apple was looking for a factory to cut the glass, the Chinese built the (government subsidized) glass cutting factory before they even had a signed deal from Apple, and they were able to give 24x7 access to engineers because the engineers lived on-site in the company dormitory. Can any American factory offer that kind of flexibility?
  http://articles.businessinsider.com/2012-01-22/tech/30652107_1_foxconn-iphones-apple-executives
52. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by bill_mcgonigle · 2012-10-17 16:03 · Score: 1
  
  I do fucking CAD/CAM and get paid way less than that!
  Guys who load boxes onto ships get $120/hr, 8hrs per day, plus overtime differential and benefits.
  
  --
  My God, it's Full of Source!
  OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
53. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by bill_mcgonigle · 2012-10-17 16:13 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  Riiight that why all the assembly jobs are still in the US.
  It's not really the money. China has something like a $70 price advantage on a US-built iPhone. Apple people would pay it.
  What you get in China, is that the factory that makes those mini screws you need for the iPhone is just down the road. This doesn't happen in Oklahoma - the industries have all left. The logistics of doing it in the US are nearly impossible.
  Second, if you wanted to build that screw factory, in China, you just grease the right palms and build a screw factory, maybe with State financial support. In the US you begin a 7-year permitting process.
  In the city where my office is Red Lobster wanted to put a restaurant. One of their canned designs they've done a hundred of. After two years in the city planner's office, they were at a meeting and the planner decided that she didn't like the propane tank in the back of the proposed restaurant, because, she said, somebody could pull off on the Interstate and shoot it with a high powered rifle, and cause an explosion that would kill everybody in the restaurant. This has never happened, even in a Michael Bay movie, and there are a dozen other restaurants in the plaza with the same setup, but she decided that Red Lobster should bury an underground tank (in a flood plane) big enough for all the restaurants to share, and that would make the world a happier place. They told the planner to go to hell, walked out of the meeting, and never came back to town.
  21st Century America - inexplicably uncompetitive.
  
  --
  My God, it's Full of Source!
  OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
54. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by bill_mcgonigle · 2012-10-17 16:19 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  So you steal stuff by paying for it?
  His point was that they bought John and now John doesn't contribute anymore. Presumably because he spends all his time on proprietary code.
  I don't know if that's true, but his argument, as framed, is that Apple took FreeBSD's most valuable asset and didn't give back after that. That's woudln't be 'paying for it', though John would have been well-rewarded for his efforts.
  
  --
  My God, it's Full of Source!
  OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
55. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Karlt1 · 2012-10-17 16:23 · Score: 1
  
  So there is only one person in the whole world qualified to add value to FreeBSD? I thought one of the benefits on open source software was that anyone could take it, modify it, and improve it? Would Linux die if Linus decided not to contribute anymore?
56. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by ColdWetDog · 2012-10-17 16:25 · Score: 1
  
  Apple has said It's not the money, It's the oppressive hours, and people sleeping on campus where they can get awoken from slumber, drink a cup of coffee and start a 12 hour shift that makes China so good for manufacturing.
  good luck getting work like that in the western world (we are privledged to have better conditions here).
  They could probably co opt some graduate students at any major university campus. Would be a step up in many respects.
  
  --
  Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
57. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by ColdWetDog · 2012-10-17 16:28 · Score: 1
  
  All 150 of them (recent article in the NYT that I'm too lazy to lookup). The vast majority of those jobs have gone in part because the longshoremen milked it for all it's worth and the port just automated the hell out of everything and tossed most of the workers out on the street. The few that are left have total cush jobs.
  Interesting outcome...
  
  --
  Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
58. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by bill_mcgonigle · 2012-10-17 16:31 · Score: 1
  
  That's a separate argument.
  If Microsoft offered Linus $100M to retire, would you consider that to be "Microsoft paying for Linux"?
  
  --
  My God, it's Full of Source!
  OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
59. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by bill_mcgonigle · 2012-10-17 16:34 · Score: 1
  
  Interesting outcome...
  Indeed. Who could have predicted that? ;)
  
  --
  My God, it's Full of Source!
  OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
60. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 16:39 · Score: 0
  
  40$/hr doing assembly work?
  Bullshit.
  More like $10/hr.
  Which is substantially more than the chinese workers are charging.
61. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by BradleyUffner · 2012-10-17 17:01 · Score: 5, Funny
  
  You might remember those days, when everyone complained about how expensive Apple hardware was.
  Yesterday?
62. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by tlhIngan · 2012-10-17 17:02 · Score: 1
  
  A Chinese Foxconn worker makes around $400/month, $4800 year. A worker in the USA would cost about 10 times as much once benefits are included.
  If it takes 500,000 chinese workers to make the phone, it would probably take 600,000 - 750,000 USA workers because USA workers aren't going to put in the same amount of overtime. But it if takes 500,000....500,000 times $50,000/year is $25B/year in labor costs alone and ignores the billions it would cost to build the factories.
  That's assuming a 1:1 Chinese:USA factory worker ratio, which given the more expensive American labor, is not correct.
  First, unskilled jobs in the US pay VERY low - minimum wage is typical and to be completely honest, you won't find enough workers because those jobs are among the most undesirable ones that will get filled with cheap Mexican labor.
  Secondly, if Apple was to target American manufacture, assuming they can get the supply chain lined up, they would employ automated manufacture - i.e., robots. That's why US workers are typically 10 or more times as productive as the Chinese because the American worker is monitoring the robots while the robots do the assembly. Given Apple's expertise in mass manufacture, it'll go from parts to boxed and sealed without the touch of a human hand (well, maybe an inspector, but that can often be automated as well).
  Of course, fully automated manufacture means it won't be very repairable - all those screws and stuff are difficult for robots to put together, so it'll go together with more adhesives and stuff.
63. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Karlt1 · 2012-10-17 17:09 · Score: 1
  
  No, Microsoft paid for a contributor.
  The original poster said the guy was made an offer to good to refuse. So do you think Apple could have offered Stallman enough to write proprietary software?
64. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by harperska · 2012-10-17 17:11 · Score: 1
  
  What about automation? If fully automated robotic assembly lines can build cars, why can't they build smartphones? Or any assembly line product for that matter? With an automated factory in the US, they could hire a tenth of the workers, and pay them ten times as much.
65. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by shutdown+-p+now · 2012-10-17 17:14 · Score: 2
  
  In a more ethical one, hopefully.
66. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by SydShamino · 2012-10-17 17:19 · Score: 1
  
  Isn't the ability to do this the whole point of BSD licenses over GPL? In other words, didn't John and all the other BSD contributors explicitly approve this sort of arrangement when they decided to develop for BSD instead of GNU/Linux?
  I struggle to see what Apple did wrong. I would think that people who support BSD would be cheering over this because BSD didn't limit Apple's freedoms the way the GPL would have.
  
  --
  It doesn't hurt to be nice.
67. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 17:31 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  $40 an hour is roughly 3 times median income I the u.s.
68. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by petermgreen · 2012-10-17 17:31 · Score: 1
  
  Afaict you can make stuff in the west for not that much more than in china but to do so requires a radically different approach. In china labour is cheap so you use labour to do anything that would be even moderately difficult to automate. In the west labour is expensive so you have to automate as much as you possiblly can.
  Even if manufacturing does come back to the west don't expect it to create many jobs unless labour costs go way down.
  
  --
  note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
69. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Kreigaffe · 2012-10-17 17:39 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  Something tells me that lady may have had an interest in one of those other restaurants, maybe one that needed a propane tank.
  I refuse to believe that anybody is actually that goddamned stupid. The propane tank wouldn't explode. PHYSICS DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT.
  Truth told she probably is that stupid... but that would make me too sad, so I'm sticking to her being a corrupt fucking shill looking to get a payout from someone else for getting red lobster to build a propane tank for them. :(
  
  --
  ... still waiting for this free-as-in-beer free beer I keep hearing about. :|
70. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 17:42 · Score: 0
  
  Lets see how many wrongs you have ...
  First .. .its JORDAN K Hubbard, not John. While this is a minor point, it shows you really don't know who or what you're talking about from the very start.
  Second: JKH was pretty much an admin overhead position before he left as his job turned into managing the project rather than coding. Its not Linux, he didn't mange JUST the kernel, he managed the whole OS. His commit rate was low BEFORE he left because he had to spend time dealing administrative issues running an open source OS. This isn't Linus vetting kernel patches, this is a man running an entire 'distro' to you Linux folks. (Not to detract from Linus's work, let me be clear that FreeBSD wouldn't be in the state its in without people like Linus and Linux who have helped popularize FOSS and made it acceptable to use software that isn't from Some Big Box company. FreeBSD people just prefer a lot more order than the ... organized chaos ... that is Linux distros)
  Apple has committed thousands of lines of code to FreeBSD. They are almost single-handedly responsible for the USB implementation though indirectly. Obj-C in GCC came from WHERE? What? I couldn't hear you, where did you say it came from? Or how about clang and the BSD licensed compilers that they work on fairly constantly so they can get the fuck off of GCC and build IDEs on top of? Do you use cups? $100 says you wouldn't if it wasn't for Apple's contributions. Only God knows what else that I haven't bothered to keep up with.
  Before they got tired of it being used to help the process of making hackintoshes you could get kernel source as well, but always true thieves ruined that.
  You can't 'steal' BSD code. You utterly fail to understand the license. You can use BSD code, but you can not steal it no matter how hard you try, see I still have access to every single commit that Jordan ever made. So do you. And everyone else does too. So he has access to my commits? Big fucking deal, thats what you call open source. I don't demand anything in return, but I get plenty in return due to others who are like me.
  Guess what? I use BSD code in ALL SORTS of closed source commercial products that make me a living and put food in my mouth. That in turn allows me to contribute back to the project because it is in my best interest to do so. Thats pretty much how BSD exists and its doing just fine.
  You may not give me access to your modifications to it, but thats not FreeBSD code, thats YOUR code. It isn't BSD code because you wrote it to be combined with FreeBSD code. The BSD license isn't a virus. It isn't a faux 'free' license where its only free if you give away yours for free to.
  BSD is not the core of OS X. The kernel is MACH. Apple just uses the BSD user land ... If I took all the BSD code out of most Apple machines ... most users would never know, developers would however, and command line junkies like myself. You can have a normal OS X experience and never touch BSD code. If I removed all the Apple code from FreeBSD I'd be a very sad panda. It is in Apple's best interest to contribute it back to the project (not just BSD, all OSS they use) so that it gets updated and upgraded by the community as well and they reap those benefits. It is of very little benefit to them to constantly have to maintain a completely separate branch that diverges further and further everyday from the mainline.
  Only an idiot would think its a bad thing that its included. You're one of those douche bags that would be pissed off if Microsoft included Cygwin by default even though you install it on every Windows machine you have access too.
  God I can't stand ignorant fucktards like you.
  --BitZtream
71. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Kreigaffe · 2012-10-17 17:47 · Score: 1
  
  It would actually take fewer American workers.. in general, America's output per hour work is outstandingly good, and the quality is higher than an Asian outsource so you get fewer defects and rejections.
  It's the costs that kill things. Wages, for one, but also just the cost of doing business. Red tape, actually having to dispose of pollution instead of slushing it out into a nearby stream. Y'know.. the stuff that keeps companies from actually literally killing society, that China kiiiinnnddaaaa doesn't really much care about or have.
  But hell! When you can get 10 chinese workers for the price of one american worker, who cares if the american worker's output is twice that of the chinese worker? dollar for dollar, china's the way to go, right?
  
  --
  ... still waiting for this free-as-in-beer free beer I keep hearing about. :|
72. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 18:05 · Score: 0
  
  It is unethical to profit? Then the entire human race is unethical. None of us would be alive right now if our ancestors hadn't profited greatly from the fruits of their labor.
73. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 18:06 · Score: 0
  
  Lol, Wut?
  I too do CAD/CAM, and have a variety of other skills working as a technician doing mechanical design work. I sure as fuck don't make $40/hr with my salary, even before unpaid overtime.
  Maybe that's the going rate in Detroit, but that's a consequence of the means of production being too cost prohibitive to relocate. Jobs not located in union twilight zones pay rates competitive with the global market, at-least for anything that requires a higher degree of skill than a trained monkey. Wages are shit overseas because the work would be done by robots if they demanded more pay.
  It's the same problem as the Amazon Mechanical Turk or Captcha Cash tried to solve. Even the shittiest minimum wage knuckle dragger can be trained to do repetitive tasks far quicker, and for significantly less up-front capital expense than it would take to automate the task. It takes reasonable volume to amortize out the nonrecurring engineering cost of building a fixture, jig, tool, or process.
  Anything that is too volatile, low-profit, and fast changing to achieve that volume is likely easier done by an organic neural network. The human hand is still the most advanced versatile "end-effector" available, with all improvements falling in to the category of "specialization" at the loss of variety of purpose.
  The structural unemployment which is killing the US economy and driving the growing wealth gap is a consequence of these up-front capital expenses getting lower, and the tools available becoming increasingly flexible to keep up with changing conditions.
  -Computer vision is exploding thanks to Moore's law making fps a decreasingly significant consideration.
  -Material science is paving the way for more efficient structures and accurate sensors.
  -Battery chemistry is just entering a portability renaissance that will enable stationary technologies to be applied to mobile problems.
  -Previously cost-prohibitive & advanced technology, like the Microsoft Kinect, is getting cheap enough to solve everyday problems.
  How far away is the paperless office and how many jobs will be lost when Gutenberg makes scribes redundant? All I know is there's a lot more money to be made in printing presses than handwriting.
74. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 18:22 · Score: 1
  
  I really wish I could find a link for this, but a quick Google didn't bring it up. Nonetheless, with an anecdote and questioning the reasoning behind labor costs being cheaper, and the whole process thus being cheaper, etc.:
  A good friend of mine who works at a company who currently manufactures commercial products in the US. They started with factories in something like 3 parts of the US and another in a cheaper area of Europe, only one of which was a union factory in the US with higher pay for their workers than the other factories. They began looking at moving some of their manufacturing to China or Mexico to save on costs, but went through a stringent evaluation of the means. Through this, they ended up closing all but that one union factory in the US, moving all of the jobs to that union factory, and do it all in that one factory, which they proceeded to expand and make larger at that location, keeping it all unionized and paying all of their workers more than at the previous locations. The major reason that brought them to this was 2 major factors that actually resulted in them saving the most money by going the route they did versus keeping the less paid worker factories or even outsourcing to the likes of China or Mexico. They found that their non-union and out of country (though they are the largest global player in their field) shops had significantly higher rates of product that they could not ship, because it didn't operate to the standards that they and their customers demanded, and they found that rate to be even lower in options they evaluated elsewhere in the world. The second factor was that they also had the least amount of problems needing servicing from the units that were created in their union shop. The end result, through their analysis, was that it was actually by far the cheapest option to move all of their jobs to their union shop, where the labor cost seemed to be the most expensive. The labor costs were more per unit for them, but they had to pay significantly less overall for all of the units produced, because they weren't paying for nearly as many non-functional units, thus allowing them to actually keep more of the profit in the long run and make ultimately more money off of the mass quantity, even in taking a cut from the profit per unit.
  I really don't know if that would apply to the likes of Apple, but the point is that there may be more than just the cost per device and labor costs that go into it. The above anecdote is one where a lot of people familiar with the analysis are confused how anyone could find outsourcing to really be so much cheaper than biting the bullet and paying for labor that is of such higher quality and easier to maintain said high quality.
75. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by dgatwood · 2012-10-17 18:23 · Score: 2
  
  And by that, of course, you mean that they ship most of them by air during the initial ramp-up period while they're still filling up the channel with stock.
  If they're like most companies, the first few weeks involve a lot of air shipments because it takes about a month (or a little bit over) to get products to the U.S. from China by boat. After that, assuming you guessed the average demand correctly, you should be able to keep the channel basically filled with weekly or monthly boat deliveries, and limit the use of air shipments to dealing with any unexpected surges in popularity.
  
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76. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 18:26 · Score: 0
  
  Indeed. Who could have predicted that? ;)
  Obviously not the unions, after all they only ever do things that protect workers right? They would never do anything that lowers efficiency, or raises costs, or causes job losses now would they.
77. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by shutdown+-p+now · 2012-10-17 18:27 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  It's not unethical to profit from the fruits of your labor. It is unethical to profit from the fruits of other people's labor, if you don't assign their fair share for their labor to them.
78. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 18:33 · Score: 0
  
  I think you mean Jordan Hubbard.
  Just sayin'
79. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by spauldo · 2012-10-17 18:34 · Score: 2
  
  What you get in China, is that the factory that makes those mini screws you need for the iPhone is just down the road. This doesn't happen in Oklahoma - the industries have all left. The logistics of doing it in the US are nearly impossible.
  Not so. Parts like screws, plastic, wiring, etc. can all be had in Oklahoma and anywhere else in the U.S., produced in America by Americans. I pick up and deliver parts like these from factories all the time. These types of materials have such low margins that there's no point in importing them from overseas - the cost difference is negligible, and you can ship the parts without having to deal with customs, lost containers, or all the crap that goes down at the docks.
  Imagine how many of those tiny screws it takes to weigh 45,000 lbs. (your average truck load). How big a difference does it make on your bottom line if you have to ship those from Arkansas or Texas? The garage door company I usually deliver for gets its springs from Iowa and its steel from Arkansas and Indiana. My company uses those loads to get us home.
  The raw materials are often imported - oil, metals, etc., but that's the commodities market, which is a completely different ball of wax (which we pick up in Arizona, BTW, for a foundry in my town).
  What we don't have here is Foxconn and other similar semiconductor fabs that can keep up with the Chinese fabs. They've got the market cornered on semiconductors and circuitboard manufacturing, and they're open to the highest bidder for any company that wants them to retool for their product. We don't have the 3rd party fabs here or the specialized manufacturing businesses that would supply them, so it's a chicken-and-egg problem.
  
  Second, if you wanted to build that screw factory, in China, you just grease the right palms and build a screw factory, maybe with State financial support. In the US you begin a 7-year permitting process.
  Ah, corruption. You make it sound so grand. If you were building said screw factory in Oklahoma, you'd have the town donating the land for you and absorbing half the building cost just to get your jobs into their town. I know; I've seen it firsthand, both with a meat packing plant and a call center. Yes, there's permits and whatnot you have to get, but if you're building in a town with high unemployment, those are mostly a formality.
  It sounds to me like the planner from your anecdote was either a) looking for a bribe or b) just trying to make herself feel important by making a business bow to her demands. Either way, it's just an example of a bad civic employee that needs to be fired. You get those everywhere, welcome to the human race.
  
  --
  Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach either, do tech support.
80. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by root_42 · 2012-10-17 18:44 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  But to be honest, the major reason is that companies like Foxconn are extremely good at getting an assembly line for a new product set up in a very short space of time. This was the reason the Raspberry Pi, for example, was outsourced to a non-Western country - Western manufacturers could match the price, but would take months to set up their production lines. Non-Western manufacturers could get everything set up in weeks.
  And yet, after some months, the Raspberry Pi foundation moved manufacturing to the UK -- for the same retail price! (http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/1925). So why shouldn't Apple be able to do the same thing? Granted, the RP Foundation isn't out to make a huge profit, but still, Apple should be able to source its components and products a little bit more ethically.
  
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81. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by arkhan_jg · 2012-10-17 18:44 · Score: 1
  
  Actually, the biggest problem with the pi was imbalanced import taxes. Importing the parts to make it in the UK would attract tax on all the parts. Importing the finished board to sell - didn't. Given the primary driver was keeping the cost as low as possible, this was a big problem, despite the taxes being pretty small. This is basically the playstation exemption; there are plenty of lobbyists for companies that import finished consumer electronics from china etc, saying we don't want to pay this tax. For the tiny UK electronic manufacturing base? Not so much.
  
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82. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by dgatwood · 2012-10-17 18:46 · Score: 1
  
  You can still get kernel sources. Here's the kernel for 10.8.2. AFAIK, OS X's xnu kernel has never been closed source unless you count the delay after each major OS release while they clean stuff up....
  
  --
  Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
83. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 18:55 · Score: 0
  
  So do you think Apple could have offered Stallman enough to write proprietary software?
  Stallman is loyal to an ideal. Buying him out is as likely as the Pope becoming an Atheist.
84. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by DerPflanz · 2012-10-17 19:14 · Score: 1
  
  40$/hr doing assembly work?
  I do fucking CAD/CAM and get paid way less than that!
  Cost of labor is not the same as the wage the laborer gets.
  
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  -- The Internet is a too slow way of doing things, you'd never do without it.
85. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 19:45 · Score: 0
  
  The Raspberry Pi was moved to the UK a few months ago
86. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Ambvai · 2012-10-17 19:47 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  I got a good dose of this the other day when my sister was working with a rich college kid, straight out of China.
  The concept of Home Depot, a store where you'd just walk in and buy a hammer, was a novel thought. He kind of knew that, conceptually, there had to be some place where equipment like that was sold, but the idea that people who didn't work in the field would ever go there, and there was the kind of demand to have a store that large blew his mind.
87. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 20:14 · Score: 0
  
  > John Hubbard
  I'm sure you mean JORDAN Hubbard.
88. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 20:26 · Score: 0
  
  Why not build them here? Yes they will cost slightly more but obviously given the rabid demand they haven't crossed the price point that drives away customers. The bigger issue is in spite dividends and buy backs and such Apple still has over 100 billion in their mattress and they don't have a clue what to do with it! Even with the increased production costs it's doubtful it would dent the 100 billion in the bank while it would mean hiring 500,000 new people that might turn into iPhone customers! It worked for Henry Ford. Being a good citizen could result in a windfall instead of reduced profits. Apple can't go broke at this point so why not help their mother country out for once? They get the added benefit of getting rid of two weeks in shipment delays due to having to ship them from China. They could also get them to Europe quicker so it's a win/win!
  Actually bullshit, A line worker in Foxconn is just paid $2 per hour,they have to work at least 11 hours each day,no saturday.
89. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 20:29 · Score: 0
  
  No American would like to work 12hours/day and just paid $2/hr
90. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Xest · 2012-10-17 20:49 · Score: 1
  
  Yeah, to you or I it looks no big deal, what's the harm? but Apple would never go for it, because a 35% drop in their most lucrative line of products would make the stock market absolutely shit bricks, their stock value would plummet in seconds, and literally hundreds of billions would be whiped off the company value.
  It'd be a brave chief exec that does that, though they would deserve much kudos for doing it and taking the company down a more ethical path. It wont happen though, because money > kudos in the business world.
91. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 21:07 · Score: 1
  
  Don't worry. Obama will add 200,000 more pages of regulation to fix this problem.
  Don't worry. Romney will completely deregulate the financial industry and exempt all high earners from taxation. It will reenvigorate the economy like a shot of amphetamine (Dude... It worked for Reagan and Bush Jr. During the Greenspan years and taken together that's gospel).
92. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by hhw · 2012-10-17 21:12 · Score: 1
  
  It's Jordan Hubbard, not John Hubbard. He was one of the original founders of FreeBSD. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Hubbard http://www.turbofuzz.com/jkh/
  
  --
  http://astutehosting.com/
93. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Coisiche · 2012-10-17 21:33 · Score: 1
  
  Absolutely.
  Whenever perplexed by a decision made by someone in local or national government, don't jump to the conclusion that they're being stupid but look for the way (likely to be unethical or amoral if not downright illegal) that they are going to personally gain. It is a certainty that there will be one.
94. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Alioth · 2012-10-17 21:55 · Score: 1
  
  Much of electronics manufacture (well, certainly the PCB) is automated - making the PCB, pick and place machines etc. for placing components. But most of the supply chain is in Asia too. Labour is probably a pretty small part of the cost of making a phone wherever you make it.
  
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95. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by gtall · 2012-10-17 22:03 · Score: 1
  
  There have been statements by Foxconn that they're thinking of adding automation to their lines. If that catches on in China, there will be a lot of newly unemployed proles wandering around causing the government new headaches. This is the government that gets it panties in a bunch the the Falun Gong to calisthenics on the government's front lawn. Other parts of the supply chain (engineers, parts suppliers, etc.) seem to be firmly fixed in China for the time being so Foxconn will probably stay there.
96. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by gtall · 2012-10-17 22:05 · Score: 1
  
  It isn't just the assembly lines, it is all the support industries like engineering, glass manufacturers, screw factories, etc. China is not just one big assembly line, they have built an entire manufacturing eco-system that would tough to replicate elsewhere. That won't stop countries from trying though.
97. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Stuarticus · 2012-10-17 22:07 · Score: 1
  
  "Happy to have a paycheck" is not the same as "happy"
  
  --
  If you think someone isn't free to have a different definition of "freedom" you may be a tyrant.
98. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Rockoon · 2012-10-17 22:28 · Score: 1
  
  Why not build them here?
  Because our suicide rates across the board are already significantly higher than at Foxconn?
  
  --
  "His name was James Damore."
99. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by transam · 2012-10-17 22:52 · Score: 2
  
  You mean Jordan Hubbard, not John. And he might have been one of the founders of the FreeBSD project, but he was far from a prolific committer. His role around the time he was asked to join Apple was concerned more with advocacy.
100. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by transam · 2012-10-17 22:53 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  So you steal stuff by paying for it?
  His point was that they bought John and now John doesn't contribute anymore. Presumably because he spends all his time on proprietary code.
  I don't know if that's true, but his argument, as framed, is that Apple took FreeBSD's most valuable asset and didn't give back after that. That's woudln't be 'paying for it', though John would have been well-rewarded for his efforts.
  It's not true. He couldn't even get Jordan's name right, much less his involvement and commitment to FreeBSD at the time he was picked up by Apple. It's a huge disservice to the FreeBSD project to suggest that one single person, such as Jordan, mattered as much as OP suggests.
101. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 23:27 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  I don't know if that's true, but his argument, as framed, is that Apple took FreeBSD's most valuable asset and didn't give back after that. That's woudln't be 'paying for it', though John would have been well-rewarded for his efforts.
  You're insulting the many people who have, and still are, working on FreeBSD after Hubbard left. The project is just fine (about to release 9.1 shortly).
  Life goes on.
102. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by MysteriousPreacher · 2012-10-17 23:37 · Score: 1
  
  Abraham Lincoln had Lincoln as a surname.
  American presidents: Inexplicably named Lincoln!
  
  --
  -- Using the preview button since 2005
103. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by shine · 2012-10-17 23:58 · Score: 1
  
  "no one would do the job for $40 or less per hour with full benefits"
  I will do it for $20, when do ? Actually, a lot would do it for $10, but I'm retired an have a good pension as does my wife. And she has a job teaching at the local community college.
  But for 20 with no bene's, I'll do it.
104. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by MachineShedFred · 2012-10-18 00:06 · Score: 1
  
  Why? Because there aren't 200,000 manufacturing engineers ready to keep the factory going here, like there are in China. Steve Jobs told the President this answer when asked the exact same question on a phone call, which is documented in his biography.
  This is why Obama wants to give the community college system a kick in the ass, so that we can actually train up people for this kind of effort.
  
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105. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by shine · 2012-10-18 00:15 · Score: 1
  
  "Guys who load boxes onto ships get $120/hr"
  Are these highly skilled crane operators? I'd agree that's a lot of money but it is a skilled job.
106. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Mabhatter · 2012-10-18 00:23 · Score: 1
  
  I can say that for a Raspberry Pi setup at a contract manufacturer is an hour or two... The problem is securing the PARTS. You have to be a really large contract manufacturer to get parts in a timely manner... And low cost. You run into something as simple as resistors or capacitors that are only run in batches 3 times a year. Small assemblers have to buy everything from the "leftovers" market... So you pay double.. Sure the part is just 1 cent, but it adds up. And you have to wait for the parts to ship. You can't use FedEx because its only $100 worth of parts at a time, you just added 25% more to costs.
  I'd also say that a run of 10,000 Pi boards would only take about one 8-10 hour shift... A little more for testing. This is $4 million in equipment being tied up, for less than a day of work. So by the time you figure in all the margins just to keep the lights on and pay the rent, you just can't compete unless quantities are 50k... Then you are paying too much for parts, so you lose anyway because for 8 weeks more of waiting the customer can get 25% discount.
107. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-18 00:25 · Score: 0
  
  Bullshit if there was any credible proof that unions were impacting productivity then companies would be heralding this proof. Think about the words that come out of your mouth and may be you might make more than 40$/hr
108. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-18 01:05 · Score: 0
  
  Red tape, actually having to dispose of pollution instead of slushing it out into a nearby stream.
  Pollution slushing into a nearby stream... sounds wonderful.
109. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-18 01:25 · Score: 0
  
  They could 10-20/hour in the southeast (Georgia, Alabama, etc). Full benefits for a relatively unskilled job? Heck yeah. I know a lot of people who'd jump at that. $40/hour. Fuck. I _do_ rocket science and I don't make that.
110. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Ash-Fox · 2012-10-18 01:40 · Score: 1
  
  What's wrong with weapons and oil refineries?
  
  --
  Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
111. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-18 02:02 · Score: 0
  
  Bullshit.
  They could probably do it for around 20/hr in oklahoma. Many assembly work jobs go for that rate. The issue is unions. Since apple would be establishing a new manufacturing plant, and would come union free to start, they just have to keep it that way. Pay people on time, don't subject them to cancer causing chemicals, and give them proper work hours, and you are basically golden.
  40$/hr doing assembly work?
  I do fucking CAD/CAM and get paid way less than that!
  Riiight that why all the assembly jobs are still in the US.
  I live in KS and work on an assembly line, you're lucky to get $20. SO perhaps don't open your mouth if you know not.
112. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Grizzley9 · 2012-10-18 02:12 · Score: 1
  
  I do fucking CAD/CAM and get paid way less than that!
  That's what you get paid, not what you COST the company which is usually around double what they pay you.
113. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-18 02:34 · Score: 0
  
  You can't use them for ARPANET which is what you use, correct?
114. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by fridaynightsmoke · 2012-10-18 02:49 · Score: 1
  
  It's not unethical to profit from the fruits of your labor. It is unethical to profit from the fruits of other people's labor, if you don't assign their fair share for their labor to them.
  How do you define 'fair' other than both parties agreeing about the share? Foxconn and each of the employees reached an agreement about pay, as did Apple and Foxconn, and each iPhone buyer and Apple. Your, my, or Bob down the road's opinions have nothing to do with it.
  
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115. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-18 03:49 · Score: 0
  
  Actually, it sounds about par-for-the-course for California. And please stop blaming "corrupt shills" being paid under the table by some nefarious organization with nebulous goals - California's ridiculous permitting process is caused entirely by government intervention with insane and often contradictory requirements.
116. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by shutdown+-p+now · 2012-10-18 04:01 · Score: 1
  
  There's no strict definition of fair, but it's much easier to spot unfair. When one of the parties along the way ends up with the lion's share of the profit, and another party is participating only because it's that or starve, it's not fair. "I know it when I see it".
117. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by geekoid · 2012-10-18 04:04 · Score: 1
  
  They probably wouldn't cost more, but Apple would make less money. Probably 10-20 bucks less per unit. I think they have maximize the price point already.
  Frankly, if they built them in the US, I would make my next phone an iPhone. It's not as good as my Samsung, but I'll take slightly fewer features of convenience in exchange for helping to support jobs in this country.
  
  --
  The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
118. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by geekoid · 2012-10-18 04:10 · Score: 1
  
  Or the value goes up..
  Bottom line, Apple would still make shit tons of money of they made them in the US. Not as many shit tons, but still they would have the growth to support their market numbers.
  Not having them built in the country that gave you the freedom to start a company in your garage becasue you would make slightly less money is pretty shitty.
  
  --
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119. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by geekoid · 2012-10-18 04:15 · Score: 1
  
  "Consumers will buy whatever is the cheapest on the price-quality curve, almost without exception."
  the please explain the iPod. It was inferior in every metric to other devices on the market, and it was more expensive.
  I am a huge fan of globalization. It will be the only way to get cultures to mingle and reduce wars. However I prefer jobs be here in the US for products sold in the US
  
  --
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120. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by geekoid · 2012-10-18 04:21 · Score: 1
  
  you're enviroment doesn't need a union. Many people work in less favorable enviromants where managment constant threatens them if they don't wiork without pay, abuse them, make them buy from the comany store. SO those poeple from a group to protect them selves from abuse.
  Thos escenerious unions are needed.
  Unions also have lobbying power. Did you know that id you are a softwar developer, there are laws in the US the exempt you from receiving overtime if you make more the 28 an hour? That's the kind of shenagans unions can help prevent.
  
  --
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121. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by geekoid · 2012-10-18 04:22 · Score: 1
  
  And that's why it would mean less profit for Apple.
  So instead, they do what they can to screw over the country and people that made there success possible.
  Ye,s I am well aware they aren't the only ones. But they are one of the worse, right along side wal-mart.
  
  --
  The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
122. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by geekoid · 2012-10-18 04:25 · Score: 1
  
  Oh, someone with other income and time will do it cheaper. Gosh, surprise.
  You are retired old man, stop taking a living wage from other people.
  So great pension AND screwing over the next generation. well.. Fuck You.
  
  --
  The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
123. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by geekoid · 2012-10-18 04:31 · Score: 1
  
  A class at a communit college should never cost more then an hour of minum wage.
  An educated society the support innovation is stronger, safer, richer, and happier then any uneducated populace
  
  --
  The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
124. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by modecx · 2012-10-18 04:46 · Score: 1
  
  You could say the same thing about many rich college kids, regardless of their origin. Most have only seen hammers and that sort of thing on a cable TV channel they've quickly surfed by. I've known their kind before, and for all of their experience with all things manual labor, a hammer might as well be a unicorn horn.
  
  --
  Constitutional rights may be respected, repealed, or modified; but they must never be ignored.
125. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Duhavid · 2012-10-18 04:54 · Score: 1
  
  In my mind it is unethical to send so many jobs overseas when there is a great need for employment here.
  No, not every job should be kept here, I am not arguing that.
  It is also not smart to send so many jobs away. Who is it that buys these products?
  How will they, if they have fewer jobs to earn enough money to do so at?
  And those fewer jobs are chased by as many or more people? Wages go down. Ability to buy goes down.
  You can argue it is not Apple's ( or fill in the blank for whatever company you like ) job to make sure there are jobs here.
  So, fine, who's is it? Or do we just keep the wage arbitrage going until everyone earns the same ( and can pay the same )?
  
  --
  emt 377 emt 4
126. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by wierd_w · 2012-10-18 05:41 · Score: 1
  
  Poignant example company. Hawker Beechcraft.
  Current status: Chapter 13 bankruptcy.
  Cause: low productivity, inflated wages, due to unions.
  When they folded, we had gluts of previously union workers apply (we do aerospace work too, but are non-union), saying they couldn't work for less than 40/hr. We laughed at them.
  (One was applying for what is essentially my job. I get paid less than 20/hr, live comfortably, own my own home, pay all my bills, and have disposable income. The only way this guy couldn't work for less is if he has outstanding debts, such as a payment on a fancy car or a huge house. There is a word for this situation. Austerity.)
  Currently? Their business assets are scheduled to be sold to a chinese company. Somehow, I doubt the new chinese leadership will kiss the machinist union's ass.
127. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Ash-Fox · 2012-10-18 05:41 · Score: 1
  
  You can't use them for ARPANET
  Tell me more.
  
  --
  Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
128. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-18 06:11 · Score: 0
  
  - doncha all love that healthy mix of condescending nonsense and racism in the morning?
  Exactly, it's actually the opposite: Chinese people are the more productive ones. 19th century US was the most prosperous and most productive time in American history... that was when US extensively used Chinese immigrant labor for cheap.
  That efficient railroad infrastructure US used to have? Built mostly by Chinese, who were cheap to hire but worked efficiently.
  The US loved Chinese labor so much, both state and federal government created laws to limit the social mobility of those Chinese immigrants. ie. California didn't let Chinese own their own farm. Instead of owning their own farm and making themselves rich, the Chinese can only work for some white guy's farm, making the white guy rich.
  
  It's the capital investment that makes workers productive
  No, capital investment is replacing your productive workers with productive machines (capital). Ideally, there would be no productive workers, and all work is done by machines.
  The only people who want productive workers are tyrants, who want their slaves to work harder for their selfish benefit.
129. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-18 06:24 · Score: 0
  
  Why not build them here?
  
  Because the rest of the supply chain (LCDs, RAM, etc) is still in East Asia?
  That's almost irrelevant. We have ships.
  Also irrelevant.
  Just re-design without LCDs or RAM.
  Who needs more than 640k, right?
130. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by CAIMLAS · 2012-10-18 06:29 · Score: 1
  
  It would be inconsistent with the near-religious dogma of the typical Apple user in the US - where Apple resides and sells most of its products - to have a factory in the US. Factories in the US would provide jobs for the 'welfare' and 'low' class peoples of the disdained 'flyover' states. This is inconsistent with "hate and denigrate America at all costs".
  Yes, the powerful of both sides of the political spectrum in the US do pretty much everything to sell out the American public for the purposes of company value and corporate political handouts. It's best to keep all manufacturing overseas, where the common American high-pay consumer can safely compartmentalize things out of mind.
  
  --
  ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
131. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by CAIMLAS · 2012-10-18 06:35 · Score: 1
  
  They could do it for about 25% less in a corporation-friendly state (right to work) where there is no personal state income tax and very low corporate tax, too. You know, somewhere with low employment rates and a lot of people seeking jobs, and where $15/hour is a hell of a lot of money (similar to what about $90k/year would be in the SF Bay area wrt cost of living, I'm guestimating).
  The plant would have a never ending supply of hard working people, and they could easily do 24/7 manufacturing/assembly in many locations. You'd also get a fair number of people with greater-than-GED levels of education in many locations by doing this, so you could easily stratify the skill levels for things like QC/QA. The overall product would be greatly superior to whatever would be gotten in China (assuming part supply issues were not a problem).
  
  --
  ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
132. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by hey! · 2012-10-18 06:36 · Score: 1
  
  Actually bullshit, A line worker in Foxconn is just paid $2 per hour,they have to work at least 11 hours each day,no saturday.
  It is true that cheap labor makes Foxconn a more profitable supplier to use, but you can't call BS until you know how much labor cost is as a fraction of total costs of putting the device on the market. In past devices the cost differential wasn't that high. Perhaps the labor input required to assemble an iPhone 5 is much hither though.
  
  --
  Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
133. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-18 06:55 · Score: 0
  
  You wouldn't comprehend it. You're just way too dumb.
134. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by prisoner-of-enigma · 2012-10-18 08:09 · Score: 1
  
  The, ethically, you'd be fine if your salary were immediately slashed by 35%, right?
  
  --
  In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
135. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by shutdown+-p+now · 2012-10-18 08:14 · Score: 1
  
  The money that I earn, I do not earn by exploiting the labor of other people, but by selling my own. It's the sweat of my brow, not a sweat of a thousand guys for whom I'm just a glorified salesman.
  Anyway, the question is roughly equivalent of asking if I would be okay with paying double the taxes that I currently do. So the answer is yes, provided that the money would be used to correct some of the numerous existing social injustices. Like getting a reasonable country-wide minimal wage, or a truly universal and publicly-funded healthcare system. Not if it's going to be pissed away in the wind paying golden parachutes for CEOs of bailed-out financial businesses, or blowing up camels in Afghanistan.
136. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Plumpaquatsch · 2012-10-18 08:15 · Score: 1
  
  And yet, after some months, the Raspberry Pi foundation moved manufacturing to the UK -- for the same retail price! (http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/1925). So why shouldn't Apple be able to do the same thing? Granted, the RP Foundation isn't out to make a huge profit, but still, Apple should be able to source its components and products a little bit more ethically.
  Imagine if Apple shipped iPhones at the same rate as Raspberry Pi.
  
  --
  Of course news about a fake are Fake News.
137. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-19 02:06 · Score: 0
  
  My god, that's communist thinking. I thought Apple was in the USA, home of the brave and the free, and capitalists.
138. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by AnonyMouseCowWard · 2012-10-19 02:16 · Score: 1
  
  The other difference is that renovations in China is a new thing.
  
  1. China was a poor country, not so long ago, and a lot of it is still poor. People forget that a lot here, but 20 years ago, my parents wouldn't have been able to renovate if they wanted to, just based on materials cost. 2. Back then the government owned your house. Spending the money and effort to renovate, to have your apartment possibly re-appropriated, sounds like a lousy idea.
  
  That takes care of the demand for such products, until very recently.
  
  3. Space. You can definitely buy a hammer or a screwdriver, but something the size of a Home-Depot with flooring and kitchen kits and stuff? Yea, can you see that in the middle of Manhattan? It doesn't fit in the middle of Beijing either. And for people that don't live in cities? Go back to point 1.
  
  I would say the North American Home Depot concept won't work. You have to modify your concept, and make it a one-stop shop: come in, choose materials, and pay someone to install it for you (ie hire the same cheap workers, but at least you chose all the materials). But eh, what do I know.
139. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by strikethree · 2012-10-19 20:41 · Score: 1
  
  If it takes 500,000 chinese workers to make the phone, it would probably take 600,000 - 750,000 USA workers because USA workers aren't going to put in the same amount of overtime.
  I suspect that your analysis is flawed. American workers will definitely not put in as much overtime but American workers are far more productive per hour of work. Since I have no actual numbers, I can not say if the numbers will balance out or favor one of the two groups, but your simple analysis will not fly as is.
  Cheers
  
  --
  "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
140. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Plumpaquatsch · 2012-10-19 23:01 · Score: 1
  
  "Happy to have a paycheck" is not the same as "happy"
  It's happier than "unhappy without a paycheck".
  
  --
  Of course news about a fake are Fake News.
141. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Plumpaquatsch · 2012-10-20 00:30 · Score: 1
  
  So you steal stuff by paying for it?
  His point was that they bought John and now John doesn't contribute anymore. Presumably because he spends all his time on proprietary code.
  I don't know if that's true, but his argument, as framed, is that Apple took FreeBSD's most valuable asset and didn't give back after that.
  If you can believe his resume, he didn't do much (Open Source) coding in the years before he was hired by Apple. Now most of his code can be found at http://opensource.apple.com/
  
  --
  Of course news about a fake are Fake News.
142. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by eddy+the+lip · 2012-10-20 19:12 · Score: 1
  
  I have nothing to add, because this is all of it. Thank you.
  
  --
  This is the voice of World Control. I bring you Peace.
143. Re:Hey if China is whining about building them.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-25 09:30 · Score: 0
  
  In China that sort of thing is sold in one of a few dozen shops in a 100m alleyway next to another shop that sells copper pipe or such. He sounds like just a rich kid who's never even seen his home country. The big boxes are just starting to show up there
Re:You know what else is a pain? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 12:02 · Score: 0, Offtopic

Or he.
The Iphone 6 do it yourself kit by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 12:03 · Score: 3, Funny

Now available in stores. We took the same great design as the IPHONE 5 but made it BETTER. It's better because you do it yourself! Now you can feel an even closer relationship with your Iphone because yes that is your blood sweat and tears that went into making it come alive.. Literally its razor fucking sharp kids.
*Kids under the age of 15 need adult supervision "what you pay them is up to you"
1. Re:The Iphone 6 do it yourself kit by Rivalz · 2012-10-17 12:05 · Score: 0
  
  LOL priceless.. but yet so true.
2. Re:The Iphone 6 do it yourself kit by hoboroadie · 2012-10-17 12:33 · Score: 1
  
  I still treasure the ancient memory of opening up a Sony Walkman. Some machines aren't meant to be touched by human hands.
  
  --
  They feared that it could be used to suppress protest or support unpopular rule.
3. Re:The Iphone 6 do it yourself kit by Animats · 2012-10-17 15:04 · Score: 2
  
  I still treasure the ancient memory of opening up a Sony Walkman. Some machines aren't meant to be touched by human hands.
  The Walkman was assembled by a rather simple robotic assembly cell. It was designed for vertical assembly - all the parts were inserted with a straight-down motion. That's not new; cheap clocks and watches were made that way a century ago. The back is made with pins and recesses so that everything aligns with the back. Once all the parts are in, the top is put on, locking everything into place.
  Some phones are made that way. Nokia and Motorola "brick" phones went together that way. Flip phones were a little more complex. Now that we're back to a "brick" phone with the iPhone, vertical assembly should be possible again.
  Looking at the teardown, the thing was clearly designed for human assembly. Too many screws, not enough self-alignment. The electronics board is presumably assembled automatically; machines do surface mount far better than people. All those little metal RF shields have to be screwed on by hand, and that's fine work on fragile parts. There's not much wiring; the wiring seems to be concentrated into a single wiring harness.
  By watchmaking standards, this assembly job is nothing. Timex, in the mechanical watch era, could have banged those things out with no problem. You do need to have experienced people used to working with tweezers under magnifiers. Foxconn's problems probably come from trying to do the job with armies of inexperienced assemblers.
4. Re:The Iphone 6 do it yourself kit by tibit · 2012-10-17 15:49 · Score: 1
  
  With reengineering this could be a beautiful thing to put together entirely hands-off. As it is, the design is only amenable to manual assembly. As you imply, it'd require different approaches to design of various parts to get good yields with automated assembly. I'd love it if a couple iPhones down the road there was a device where nobody touches anything once it is loaded up into assembly cells -- all the way to final boxing.
  
  --
  A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
5. Re:The Iphone 6 do it yourself kit by Animats · 2012-10-18 16:46 · Score: 1
  
  With reengineering this could be a beautiful thing to put together entirely hands-off. As it is, the design is only amenable to manual assembly. As you imply, it'd require different approaches to design of various parts to get good yields with automated assembly.
  Right. And it might be slightly thicker, which Apple sees as a problem. Look at the teardown, and notice the cable harness with the tiny connectors going into the sides of the subassemblies. That implies a tough assembly problem. Assembly requires getting each part close to its final location, then, while holding the part, attaching the connector. Only then can the part be moved to its final location and attached. This is much harder than bolting down the parts and plugging in the wiring harness. (It's probably one of the places where Foxconn employes are screwing up. Two-handed tweezer work under a magnifier is not easy. Most people can't do it, and almost nobody can do it consistently when tired.)
  If the harness were on top and connectors went in vertically, assembly would be easier but the device thickness would increase slightly. Redesigning to fix that problem would delay production. Using the back as a substrate and putting traces on it, then soldering everything to the back in ball-grid array style might work, but that increases fragility because stress on the back cover is applied directly to a soldered joint.
  Compare the Droid Razr teardown. That's a design more suited for automated assembly. Put part in place, then attach connector. Uses more adhesives and is less maintainable, though. Those are the tradeoffs.
6. Re:The Iphone 6 do it yourself kit by tibit · 2012-10-19 02:58 · Score: 1
  
  Even without moving the connector locations, the harness issue is solvable by preassembling it on a jig, and then transferring the whole subassembly -- all you need is a custom vacuum sucker nozzle to hold everything in place while it's being moved. Such nozzles can be done entirely on a machine: 3D printer for the plastic body, and then a bead machine to deposit a silicone bead.
  
  --
  A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
Pain? by girlintraining · 2012-10-17 12:07 · Score: 5, Insightful

Foxconn may say the iphone5 is a pain, but I think the workers getting paid peanuts for 80 hours shifts might have a different idea of what 'pain' means. Besides, how much quality assembly is really possible when your workforce is bleary-eyed and exhausted? I bet there's a lot of QA rejects and extra controls required to keep quality from plummeting.

--
#fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
1. Re:Pain? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 12:19 · Score: 0
  
  I think you need to change your sig to
  In the beginning, there was everything. Then it changed.
This is my guarantee... by bogaboga · 2012-10-17 12:07 · Score: 1

...that the four words,
"...Apple's attention to detail..."
are going to be part of the discourse as slashdotters exchange ideas on Apple, despite whatever happened to the phrase when one considers the maps fiacso and the chipping issues that have been part of the latest iphone story.
And it won't be long, trust me on that...just saying.
1. Re:This is my guarantee... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 13:48 · Score: 0
  
  Yea, because Microsoft and Google never made a mistake with an OS or a product, just saying.
iFixit by Dan+East · 2012-10-17 12:09 · Score: 5, Informative

That's ironic, because iFixit finally gave the iPhone 5 a much better score than all previous generations as far as repair goes. In the factory the boards are populated by machine, leaving the final assembly of the various parts by hand, which is basically the same process you have when manually disassembling / reassembling the device. Just doesn't jive with what iFixit had to say. Sounds like they are trying to shift blame to me.

--
Better known as 318230.
1. Re:iFixit by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 12:33 · Score: 0
  
  The tolerances Apple gave Foxconn went from .2 to .1mm, IIRC, which is difficult for a human worker to do fast, even with magnifiers and the proper tools.
2. Re:iFixit by PrimaryConsult · 2012-10-17 12:39 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  Thanks for that! I found two amusing bits of information in there:
  -The screen replacement is far superior in the iPhone 5 than the Galaxy S3 (I looked at their piece on the S3 afterward).
  -I was most amused at finding out the iPhone 5 battery and camera are made by Sony... hopefully this silences some of those people who feel the need to post about having not bought a Sony product since **insert ancient history here**.
3. Re:iFixit by drinkypoo · 2012-10-17 12:49 · Score: 2
  
  The tolerances Apple gave Foxconn went from .2 to .1mm, IIRC, which is difficult for a human worker to do fast, even with magnifiers and the proper tools.
  It sure isn't. That's a design and manufacturing issue. If the device is designed correctly then as long as the tech puts the screws in the right holes, and performs all the steps in the proper order, then the device will be properly aligned.
  
  --
  "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
4. Re:iFixit by DarwinSurvivor · 2012-10-17 12:57 · Score: 1
  
  .1mm of WHAT? Is that the mould specifications (fairly easy with a CNC and plastic injection), the battery placement specifications (impossible), hot-glue thickness, or screw tightness (invalid unit and I doubt it has any screws anyways).
5. Re:iFixit by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 13:07 · Score: 1
  
  iFixit said that the display was easier to replace than any of the other iPhones. This says nothing about how complex the individual parts are to manufacture. Obviously Foxconn does more than just take the large pieces of the phone and assemble them inside the case.
6. Re:iFixit by lewiscr · 2012-10-17 13:10 · Score: 3, Funny
  
  Sounds like they are trying to shift blame to me.
  What did YOU DO?
7. Re:iFixit by tibit · 2012-10-17 15:54 · Score: 1
  
  huh? Looks to me like it has at least two dozen screws ;)
  
  --
  A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
8. Re:iFixit by robbak · 2012-10-17 20:16 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  iFixit's rating was because the screen came off easily after removing a couple of screws, and that provided easy access to the battery. After that, the rest of the phone was tightly packed, and fiddly to get apart, and they did say that re-aligning it to factory specs would be hard to impossible.
  
  --
  Prediction for end of Universe #42: Fencepost error in Quantum_bogosort.cpp
Design for manufacturing? by benjfowler · 2012-10-17 12:18 · Score: 5, Interesting

Any Slashdotters know anything about manufacturing engineering, and would like to fill us in on why Apple can construct such a sophisticated thing as an iPhone 5, that still needs to be assembled largely by hand?
Surely a mass-marketed consumer device like that, they'd design for manufacturability, and/or design the tools required to assemble it efficiently?
Maybe, with (Chinese) labour costs being such an insignificant part of the sticker price, it's simply not worth the trouble?
1. Re:Design for manufacturing? by myowntrueself · 2012-10-17 12:26 · Score: 1
  
  Any Slashdotters know anything about manufacturing engineering, and would like to fill us in on why Apple can construct such a sophisticated thing as an iPhone 5, that still needs to be assembled largely by hand?
  Surely a mass-marketed consumer device like that, they'd design for manufacturability, and/or design the tools required to assemble it efficiently?
  Maybe, with (Chinese) labour costs being such an insignificant part of the sticker price, it's simply not worth the trouble?
  The Chinese will just release a slightly redesigned pirate copy that'll be (almost) as good as the real thing and so easy to mass produce that it'll swamp the market even more than pirate copys usually do.
  
  --
  In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
2. Re:Design for manufacturing? by mosb1000 · 2012-10-17 12:36 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  They can't build robots capable of the same wide variety of fine, rapid movements as people. Assembling the device robotically would require a large number of purpose build machines to carry out each step. That would add years to the amount of time it takes to bring a product to market, which is unacceptable in consumer electronics.
3. Re:Design for manufacturing? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 12:39 · Score: 0
  
  Because machines often lack the finesse of human fingers. Doesn't help with the fact that a few years of Chinese labor will still be orders of magnitude cheaper then a machine that's in use for a few years (not even taking in account that machines may not always be able to be re-purposed due to ever changing designs). Machines also requires maintenance so there is still a recurring cost.
  In the end, machines are great for some parts of mass production, in others, it's still much cheaper to use Chinese labor force. When 1 machine may cost more then 10 years of your entire work force, it's a no brainer which one companies would choose.
4. Re:Design for manufacturing? by Lord_of_the_nerf · 2012-10-17 12:43 · Score: 5, Funny
  
  Because robots have more human rights in China.
5. Re:Design for manufacturing? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 12:53 · Score: 0
  
  There's at least a dozen Mitt jokes in that statement.
6. Re:Design for manufacturing? by DNS-and-BIND · 2012-10-17 12:57 · Score: 1
  
  I'm in China manufacturing, and it baffles me that Apple can get excellent-quality, highly sophisticated goods like the iPhone out and on schedule. It just blows my mind.
  Nineteen components, and they still get it wrong.
  
  --
  Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
7. Re:Design for manufacturing? by jrumney · 2012-10-17 12:59 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  It's perfectly normal for final assembly to be done by hand. We're not talking soldering here, but inserting flat cables into sockets, clipping PCBs into place inside the aluminium chassis, and closing everything up. It would take quite specialized machinery to automate this, and the lifespan of the average iPhone model is just not long enough to justify that.
8. Re:Design for manufacturing? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 13:01 · Score: 0
  
  Humans are much more flexible. Even for "same product" production lines there are often multiple versions of various parts with small but important differences. (E.g. multiple screen suppliers.) Humans can be trained to deal with this and switch pretty much on the fly. Machines may need retooling, recalibrating, testing, etc.
9. Re:Design for manufacturing? by s.petry · 2012-10-17 13:26 · Score: 1
  
  Yeah, go ahead and try to hire anyone under 16for a job. Ever read the work restrictions for a minor? While the age restriction is true, the amount of hour, allowed times to work, etc... Make it so difficult that it rarely happens (legally anyway).
  
  --
  -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
10. Re:Design for manufacturing? by Eskarel · 2012-10-17 14:09 · Score: 1
  
  From what I understand it's actually fairly simple.
  At the present time, robots which are capable of safely manipulating the screens are more expensive than the humans that do it now. A robot could of course assemble the rest of it, but when you need a human to go and put the screen in on every unit anyway, you may as well have them put the rest of it together too.
11. Re:Design for manufacturing? by tibit · 2012-10-17 15:56 · Score: 2
  
  It doesn't need to be assembled largely by hand. It's purposely designed to be assembled by hand, since that's what you do when you have Chinese labor available in a Foxconn factory. Much less set up cost than automation, and initially faster adaptability to demand as well. If you wanted an automated assembly line, then it'd make just as much sense to make it in the U.S. or Europe, and it'd be designed for such an automated assembly process.
  
  --
  A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
12. Re:Design for manufacturing? by tibit · 2012-10-17 15:59 · Score: 1
  
  By properly engineering the design process, those purpose build machines would be co-designed with other parts, it's a matter of what you're familiar with. Apple has been designing on purpose for manual assembly. It'd be, internally, quite a different product if it was meant for automated assembly. iPhone could be put together using rather simple machinery. All you need is a computer-assisted design-for-manufacturing process where when a part design is finalized, you also have finalized end effectors, conveyor tooling and motion specs. No need to be dumb about it.
  
  --
  A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
13. Re:Design for manufacturing? by tibit · 2012-10-17 16:01 · Score: 1
  
  The machinery can be reusable across models, there'd be specialized conveyor and end effector tooling. A lot of that can be done quickly using 3D printers. Times are changing.
  
  --
  A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
14. Re:Design for manufacturing? by AaronW · 2012-10-17 16:11 · Score: 1
  
  In China human labor is cheap which is why they use it. In the U.S. it's expensive so we automate it. It takes longer to retool equipment to automate it but you do tend to get higher quality. For those who think robots don't have the finesse of human hands, all of those chips on the boards are placed by robots. It's very difficult to reliably do that by hand given how small the tolerances are. Today's robots can do most of what human workers do and in fact do it faster and better. The problem is that it takes a long time to set up all the tooling to do it properly and they can't change on a dime like a human worker can.
  The U.S. is still a huge manufacturer. The difference between the U.S. and China is that the U.S. mostly automates things whereas China just throws bodies at it.
  
  --
  This post is encrypted twice with ROT-13. Documenting or attempting to crack this encryption is illegal.
15. Re:Design for manufacturing? by Osgeld · 2012-10-17 16:13 · Score: 1
  
  I work for a (US) company that makes electronic products, the bulk of it is SMT, and requires very little more than humans putting materials in, and then taking it out on the other end. Quality and consistency are extremely high and errors are low. Much like the production of a phone, most workers are just plugging crap in and snapping parts together.
  the other part of that are products that are less than 19 components, but requires too much manual placement, and wow, you might as well take half of your materials and toss it in the dumpster. After buying this mess we are redesigning everything to go to the automated route saving everyone time and headache, cause humans suck when it comes to fiddly repetitive processes that require an ounce of attention.
16. Re:Design for manufacturing? by Osgeld · 2012-10-17 16:17 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  "A lot of that can be done quickly using 3D printers"
  ugh, ok when your producing thousands to millions of units per day, you cant take the line down every 20 min cause your rep-rap made doohicky crapped out. even good 3D printers cant make parts that are going to hold up in a production line very long.
  so now your getting shit milled and waterjet to make special tools for a product that changes every year just to inset a screw that cost a multiplier more than a persons yearly income, even if you were paying American rates.
17. Re:Design for manufacturing? by TheCouchPotatoFamine · 2012-10-17 17:06 · Score: 1
  
  plus if they revolutionized 3d printing (of some sort and scope, along with a fully programmable transport mechanism to bridge the devices together) it it would only be a matter of time before we didn't need them any more, so, natch.
  
  --
  CS majors know the time/space tradeoff, but they never get taught the 3rd, crucial, tradeoff of the set: comprehension!
18. Re:Design for manufacturing? by TheCouchPotatoFamine · 2012-10-17 17:08 · Score: 1
  
  "cause humans suck when it comes to fiddly repetitive processes that require an ounce of attention."
  which is as it should be, and will fit perfectly with a robotic future. Bring it on.
  
  --
  CS majors know the time/space tradeoff, but they never get taught the 3rd, crucial, tradeoff of the set: comprehension!
19. Re:Design for manufacturing? by ColdWetDog · 2012-10-17 18:06 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  You probably could do something like that - for a price. And the price would be a big one. Every time you wanted to change something you'd have to retool the machines. And things do change - you make a couple thousand prototypes, find that one screw is in the wrong place and the screen cracks all of the time, you go back and retool the case or whatever, show the slaves how to screw the part in and off you go.
  In your world, you would have to retool both the part and the machine. Easy, you say, just rig the machines to you can change them. Apparently not so easy - otherwise it would be done that way.
  Do you seriously think the designers of these devices haven't scrutinized these decisions carefully? "The iPhone could be put together using simple machinery." Really? Then why is every cell phone, every little camera, every big DLSR and in fact, every bit of consumer electronics made this way?
  It's just not easy to build a machine as dexterous as a human.
  
  --
  Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
20. Re:Design for manufacturing? by Sabriel · 2012-10-17 18:07 · Score: 1
  
  But... we've already got mechanical simulacra of humans. We've already got stereoscopic hand-eye (hand-camera) coordination software. We've already got neural net learning software. Etcetera. All the basic fundamentals are there. All that's needed now is sufficient (okay a lot of) development, refinement, and a decent high-level suite to tie everything together into a neat package so that a single programmer can do a show-and-tell for a factory's robotic workforce.
  So, any bets on whether the Droid Age begins in the first or second half of this century?
21. Re:Design for manufacturing? by ColdWetDog · 2012-10-17 18:10 · Score: 1
  
  Then why do, for example, DSLR manufacturers do it that way? Because they're dumb? Or because at some level of manual placement, machines just aren't flexible enough?
  I'm really curious where the break is because at some levels, machines are clearly better (SMT circuit boards for example) and at other levels, multiple large manufacturers that have the talent and motivation to go full bore in terms of automation just don't.
  
  --
  Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
22. Re:Design for manufacturing? by brillow · 2012-10-17 18:41 · Score: 1
  
  China is one of the places where people are still cheaper than machines.
23. Re:Design for manufacturing? by arkhan_jg · 2012-10-17 18:50 · Score: 1
  
  In china, human workers are cheaper than robots. Especially for complex manipulation tasks like layering differing bits together into a 3d puzzle with cabling, it's simply cheaper to hire more people at very low wages and have them work 12 hours a day doing the repetitive work than it is to build robots to do it.
  
  --
  Remember kids, it's all fun and games until someone commits wholesale galactic genocide.
24. Re:Design for manufacturing? by spauldo · 2012-10-17 19:14 · Score: 1
  
  Did you know in the US you can hire a 12 year old to work the crops?
  Farm laws are so grandfathered that George Washington would find some of them outdated. Those same laws also allow teenagers to hire on for harvest, which is a good thing for a lot of them (my father learned to operate a non-syncronized transmission that way, which served him well later as a truck driver). That said...
  You can hire a 12 year old to do almost anything in the U.S., as long as it's not sex work, dangerous work (not counting farm work), or work requiring an adult for legal reasons (contract law, etc.). You won't be able to get insurance for them, and you can only work them on weekends and after school for a certain number of hours. It's generally worth it if you want your lawn mowed, and probably not worth it if you want someone to manage your shipping department.
  
  --
  Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach either, do tech support.
25. Re:Design for manufacturing? by dgatwood · 2012-10-17 19:33 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  Nineteen components, and they still get it wrong.
  That's nothing. I bought a bunch of microphones from a Chinese manufacturer a couple of years ago. The power supply circuit boards were machine-built, AFAIK, so they were consistent. All that they had to do by hand was screw a single circuit board down with... maybe four screws, screw the case together with... I think two screws, and shove on a knob or two on the front. They might have had to snap a power jack into the back or something. We're talking dead simple here.
  I'll let you guess what percentage of them had at least one screw rolling around in the box. Hint: it was not a single-digit percentage. Most companies can't cope with that sort of return rate.
  If you want quality out of China, you'll only get it if you have enough volume that they will care if they lose your business. And you will have to do random inspections of their factories, which means having employees on the ground in China. Fail to meet either of those requirements and, assuming what I've seen is typical, it would probably be cheaper for them to ship you the parts and for you to pay to have them assembled in the U.S. once you factor in the astounding return rate. Assuming that you do proper QA in the U.S., you'll be disassembling and reassembling a quarter of them anyway, so you might as well eliminate the redundant assembly step and just assemble it over here. Cheaper import duties, that way, too.
  
  --
  Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
26. Re:Design for manufacturing? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 19:41 · Score: 0
  
  Any Slashdotters know anything about manufacturing engineering, and would like to fill us in on why Apple can construct such a sophisticated thing as an iPhone 5, that still needs to be assembled largely by hand?
  In my experience it's probably just a matter of cutting corners to get it earlier to market. Sometimes products that the engineers said are prototypes are pushed to market anyway. They work well for the consumers but the necessary changes for efficient manufacturing has not been made. The manufacturer in this case can't build the product as cheap as it should be but they don't want to refuse to build the product in case the customer goes elsewhere. My guess is that the price for manufacturing was negotiated before Foxconn got their hands on the new product and was based on older products.
  Hand assembly isn't as expensive as a lot of people think, someone still has to feed the machines and place the parts in a way that the machine can fetch them. The thing is that if something is designed in a way that makes it hard for machines to assemble it then it is hard for humans to assemble it too. Humans can still do it but it gets more expensive. This results in a situation where expensive assembly is done by hand and makes hand assembly look bad.
27. Re:Design for manufacturing? by DNS-and-BIND · 2012-10-17 20:22 · Score: 1
  
  Huh? People source from China WITHOUT people on the ground? WTF? You're just asking to get screwed that way. Amateur hour.
  
  --
  Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
28. Re:Design for manufacturing? by Ash-Fox · 2012-10-18 01:19 · Score: 1
  
  Which mobile phones are produced and assembled in the USA using automation?
  
  --
  Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
29. Re:Design for manufacturing? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-18 02:33 · Score: 0
  
  The ones for ARPANET use according to you.
30. Re:Design for manufacturing? by Ash-Fox · 2012-10-18 05:39 · Score: 1
  
  The ones for ARPANET use according to you.
  Tell me more.
  
  --
  Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
31. Re:Design for manufacturing? by cthulhu11 · 2012-10-18 06:41 · Score: 1
  
  It totally blows my mind that they moved from a design like the 4s to one that's actually *painted*, like something from the 70's.
32. Re:Design for manufacturing? by chronosan · 2012-10-18 06:49 · Score: 1
  
  For the next couple of years at least. We have robots dexterous enough to pick strawberries without bruising them.
33. Re:Design for manufacturing? by tibit · 2012-10-19 07:18 · Score: 1
  
  The product itself has to be reengineered, but it's little internal details, not the overall weight, form, and function. Not every bit of consumer electronics is made this way. Sony's Walkmans were and Swatch watches are IIRC done 100% automated, hands-off.
  
  --
  A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
it may be a pain in the butt for people by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 12:23 · Score: 1

but doing putting lots of small parts in exactly the right place over and over again is the kind of thing our robot overlords should be good at.
Apple is missing an opportunity here by Cute+and+Cuddly · 2012-10-17 12:32 · Score: 1

They should sell the iphone as a kit. Have fun building it yourself!
1. Re:Apple is missing an opportunity here by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 12:42 · Score: 0
  
  I recently cracked the screen on my iPhone 4s. Being mildly handy, I went to check out the repair kits and instructions to fix it myself.
  To replace the glass, you essentially have to dismantle the whole thing from the back to get to the screws holding the glass in place.
  I just stuck some packing tape over the crack, seems to work fine this way!
2. Re:Apple is missing an opportunity here by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 13:05 · Score: 0
  
  Yeah, build it yourself, and then when you're done you can't do with it what you want without rooting it and voiding the warranty.
Thin is In by Tablizer · 2012-10-17 12:49 · Score: 5, Funny

TFA: The company had been running an internship program that put 14- to 16-year-old children on the factory floor, and if you've ever built a Lego spaceship with a teenager, you'll know that those nimble little fingers are great at dealing with the small parts.

Because the iPhone 6 will be as thin as a credit card, Apple will hire fetuses.

--
Table-ized A.I.
1. Re:Thin is In by R3d+M3rcury · 2012-10-17 13:42 · Score: 4, Funny
  
  Which is why they do this in Asia: Because Caucasians are just too damn tall.
Of course it is a pain by StripedCow · 2012-10-17 13:12 · Score: 1

It is pure magic! The thing doesn't obey the rules of physics.
Geez, what did they expect?

--
If Pandora's box is destined to be opened, *I* want to be the one to open it.
How are these workers going to react by Blinkin1200 · 2012-10-17 13:12 · Score: 1

How are these workers going to react when they find out the next iPhone will be assembled by robots?

We have the technology, it is just a small matter of programming.
1. Re:How are these workers going to react by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-18 00:38 · Score: 0
  
  We have the technology, it is just a small matter of programming.
  Hey boss! What're you doing here?
Totally Wrong. by WindBourne · 2012-10-17 14:05 · Score: 2

Caterpillar has 2 pay scales. The new one starts ppl at 11/hr with zero benefits. IOW, 22K/year. Then you add in the fact that the yuan is manipulated to be about 1/3 of where it is at, then you realize that CHinese workers are making pretty damn close to what American workers currently make. The only REAL advantage that China has right now, is there manipulation of their money, the dumping, the subsidies, and the trade barriers to others coming in to their markets.

--
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Nexus Q and Apple TV not really comparable by perpenso · 2012-10-17 15:43 · Score: 1

There was a slashdot article a while back explaining exactly what that difference would be. It was somewhere in the ballpark of $20-40 more per device.
I don't believe that's true though. I look at apple tv, and nexus q, I look at the prices, and come to a very different conclusion.
You should not be looking at price, you should be looking at cost. More specifically you should be looking at the portion of the cost that is locale specific, labor for example.

Plus the Nexus Q is a sphere not a box, it has moving parts, it is touch sensitive and it has an amplifier so that speakers can be plugged in directly. That suggests more complicated tooling, components and assembly.

Plus the Nexus Q is likely to be less popular so it would lack volume pricing on components. Yes there is some feedback here, price influences popularity, but Google presumably ran the numbers even selling the thing at cost and the volume numbers probably just weren't there.
1. Re:Nexus Q and Apple TV not really comparable by spire3661 · 2012-10-17 15:53 · Score: 1
  
  The Nexus Q was canceled, and anyone who pre-ordered got theirs for free and the entire project was scrapped. There is nothing in the Nexus Q business plan that supports your argument. Its was a shoddily designed product that in NO WAY represents what consumers want in set-top devices. You used a terrible example.
  
  --
  Good-bye
2. Re:Nexus Q and Apple TV not really comparable by perpenso · 2012-10-17 16:18 · Score: 1
  
  Perhaps you meant to respond one post higher in the thread ...
  
  Was it really canceled? Last I heard it was delayed.
3. Re:Nexus Q and Apple TV not really comparable by Belial6 · 2012-10-17 16:46 · Score: 2
  
  Google says it was delayed. http://www.google.com/nexus/#/q
4. Re:Nexus Q and Apple TV not really comparable by modecx · 2012-10-18 04:25 · Score: 1
  
  There's a huge difference in build quality between the two, that can also not be ignored. The Nexus Q is die-cast zinc, and looks like there's some finishing that goes into the unit: milling and painting can be substantial added costs in small batches. Apple TV's case is injection molded plastic, it's finished when it comes out of the mold.
  It's pretty obvious that Google set out to make a flagship-quality item, something that is designed to be seen and look interesting/fashionable, and be interacted with directly, whereas you might as well hide the Apple TV behind your big screen once you get it setup.
  
  --
  Constitutional rights may be respected, repealed, or modified; but they must never be ignored.
Why does anyone still care? by firesyde424 · 2012-10-17 15:47 · Score: 3, Insightful

The folks who stood in line for hours(or days in some cases), or ordered one online and still haven't seen it yet, got screwed. Not because of manufacturing delays, but because they bought a phone that was already out of date before it was even released. HTC and Samsung had better phones out eight and six months ago, respectively. I bought the one x. It has a better LCD, better resolution, better talk time, same resolution camera, NFC, WiFi direct, and a whole list of other things the "cutting edge" iPhone 5 doesn't have. And here's the punchline..... I paid $300 less for my One X than you did for the 32 gb iPhone 5.
1. Re:Why does anyone still care? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 21:46 · Score: 0
  
  I ordered a iphone 5 over 3 weeks ago and still nothing, it's really disappointing waiting a small percentage of the year to receive a device I've paid hundreds for.
2. Re:Why does anyone still care? by Grizzley9 · 2012-10-18 02:55 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Because your definition of "better" is different than other peoples? A spec list does not a great phone make.
New Assembly Plants in USA by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 16:01 · Score: 0

They could probably do it for around 20/hr in oklahoma. Many assembly work jobs go for that rate. The issue is unions. Since apple would be establishing a new manufacturing plant, and would come union free to start, they just have to keep it that way. Pay people on time, don't subject them to cancer causing chemicals, and give them proper work hours, and you are basically golden.
Yes, the time is getting ripe for such assembly plants to get built in the USA, particularly in the right-to-work, non-union states. The key is this upcoming presidential election. Despite Apple's public appearance as purporting to be such a progressive left-wing company, with their support for gay marriage, and all that jazz...the corporate brass now that Jobs is dead, are all as right wing as you can get. If Obama gets re-elected, there's not a snowball's chance in hell they'd consider building a large assembly plant. If Romney gets elected and implements the stuff he's promising, then big rich corporations like Apple will actually consider investing in large-scale capital investments like factories again.
health care being tied to jobs hurts the USA for j by Joe_Dragon · 2012-10-17 17:09 · Score: 4, Insightful

health care being tied to jobs hurts the USA for jobs and getting rid of that can give us more jobs hear.
the mythbusters need to try that out by Joe_Dragon · 2012-10-17 17:13 · Score: 1

the mythbusters need to try that out.
Jamie wants big boom
1. Re:the mythbusters need to try that out by humanrev · 2012-10-17 17:53 · Score: 2
  
  Funny you say that; the MythBusters did in fact do a test on the idea you can blow up a propane tank with a gun. Turns out, you can't... not easily anyway. From memory it took incendiary rounds and a fucking minigun (cos you know, you can get those at any corner story) before they got something resembling an explosion.
  
  --
  Most people on Slashdot are fucking idiots.
2. Re:the mythbusters need to try that out by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 18:21 · Score: 1
  
  They did try that out, and it doesn't work. An explosion happens when lots of energy is released at once. For a propane tank, it would happen because of extremely high pressure in the tank causes a catastrophic rupture, a lot of propane all cathes on fire and burns at once, or both.
  In order to have a fire, you need fuel and oxidizer. In this case, the fuel is propane and the oxidizer is air. The propane inside the tank is not mixed with air, so it won't burn. If you shoot the tank with a high-powered rifle, it will make a hole in the tank and propane will start leaking out. Only after propane has started leaking out and mix with air at the proper ratio can you start a fire -- but it still won't explode. In order to get an explosion you will first have to wait for a significant amount of propane to leak out and mix with the air at the proper ratio, and then ignite it.
  Once you have a smaller explosion, you might get enough of the propane left in the tank to rapidly mix with air and make a larger explosion. But this is quite an unlikely scenario.
  An even less likely scenario is a BLEVE (boiling liquid, expanding vapor explosion). To create this, you would have to have a fire around the tank for long enough (hours or days) to boil the propane and build enough pressure inside the tank to cause it to rupture. At this point you have tons of hot, high-pressure gas all escaping into the atmosphere at once. This gas will all find oxygen relatively quickly, making for a spectacular explosion that will certainly kill everybody in the restaurant and probably destroy the whole shopping center.
  Given the extreme difficulty of even causing a fire, let alone an explosion, the Mythbusters generally just resort to C4 to explode propane tanks.
  dom
3. Re:the mythbusters need to try that out by jabuzz · 2012-10-17 20:43 · Score: 1
  
  Hum, a fire set around a propane tank in my personal experience can cause a pretty big bang and a huge fireball that is maybe 15m high.
  How do I know well 25 years ago they built a new doctors surgery behind my parents house. Some local yobs set fire to the prefab building used by the work men and after a bit there was an almighty bang. After rushing to the back windows to see what was going on there was a huge 15m high flaming tower. I believe some windows further down the street where broken.
  My understanding is that the fire had only been going for a relatively short time before the explosion, as the fire brigade had already been called, They arrived less than a minute after the explosion. So certainly not hours let alone days.
  These days in the UK at least all temporary accommodation on building sites is steel container stuff so the local yobs cannot set them on fire. The wood based building was of course replaced with a steel one.
4. Re:the mythbusters need to try that out by Alioth · 2012-10-17 21:50 · Score: 1
  
  It's called a BLEVE - boiling liquid expanding vapour explosion. You won't get that by shooting a propane tank, since the propane can escape through the bullet hole and burn relatively slowly. But if you roast a propane tank in a fire, the fire weakens the tank from the heat and at the same time makes the liquid propane boil and thus hugely increases the pressure in the tank. Eventually the pressure causes the tank to explode, spraying boiling propane all over the burning environment leading to a very impressive explosion.
  There's a youtube video out there showing a BLEVE where exploding propane tanks are being fired for hundreds of metres.
  
  --
  Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
5. Re:the mythbusters need to try that out by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-18 01:30 · Score: 0
  
  What!? Do experimentation to see if something you saw in a movie once was realistic? SON THIS IS AMERICA! YOU TAKE YOUR COMMIE, STANTIC SILVERTONGUE ELSEWHERE!
6. Re:the mythbusters need to try that out by modecx · 2012-10-18 05:27 · Score: 1
  
  If it was a tower of fire, it's because the tank's emergency pressure relief valve worked as intended. As the other responder indicated, the pressure in the tank rose to dangerous levels because of the added heat. Most pressurized fuel tanks require just that kind of safety device.
  If it was a propane explosion, the fireball (from the propane, anyway) would have been gone by the time you heard the bang, unless that doctor's office was some sort of filling station with huge amounts of additional fuel.
  
  --
  Constitutional rights may be respected, repealed, or modified; but they must never be ignored.
graduate students for a trades jobs?? by Joe_Dragon · 2012-10-17 17:15 · Score: 1

graduate students for a trades jobs??
Now that is messed up and why go 50-100k in loans to work a job like that.
1. Re:graduate students for a trades jobs?? by Mabhatter · 2012-10-18 00:34 · Score: 1
  
  That's what the BioMed industry runs on... And why we "need" more H1-B. everybody is working "for experience" while racking up more loans... When they actually GET the degree, they are unemployable at anything but Starbucks.... Cause all the Grad students do the "grunt work" that really only needs a Bachelor or less. Unless they can get one of the professor jobs or industry job, but we're cutting "education".
Why did assembly line jobs leave the US? by fragMasterFlash · 2012-10-17 17:52 · Score: 1

The final push over the cliff for electronics manufacturing in the US was the deadline for implementing RoHS compliance. Given the costs associated with revamping processes and procedures to insure compliance it was a no-brainer decision to simply outsource circuit board manufacturing. In many cases it was a cash-positive decision as many outsource manufacturers would even agree to buy out existing assembly lines in the US and ship the equipment to Asia or Mexico.
Re:FUCK YOU WHO EVER LABELED THIS ARTICLE AS A "PA by Kreigaffe · 2012-10-17 18:03 · Score: 0

I uhh.
Mod this guy up... that is all. :(

--
... still waiting for this free-as-in-beer free beer I keep hearing about. :|
$40 cost isn't $40 wages by dutchwhizzman · 2012-10-17 19:15 · Score: 1

Apart from wages, you have to provide decent and safe working environments for your workers, within the limits of local law. You have to provide 401K or other benefits, depending on what country/state you are in. You have to pay taxes on your profits. You need to pay for local and state permits. Those extra costs add up. In Western Europe, putting someone to work will easily cost you twice the amount of what you pay them. What they actually get after taxes, can be as little as half of that. So every 10 euro you get to spend, will cost your employer 40 euro. In the USA it may not be that much, you may get 20 out of 40, but you have to pay for your own health care from that money, there is very little workers comp if you lose your job and there are many other things left to free market that you have to pay for out of your own pocket. Most of these don't exist in China, making manual labor manufacturing a lot cheaper and easier to do there.

--
I was promised a flying car. Where is my flying car?
What is happening to Slashdot's submit process ? by Taco+Cowboy · 2012-10-17 20:03 · Score: 5, Insightful

Samzenpus, can you please do a better job on the submission approval process?

" China's largest electronics manufacturer, the already-loathed Foxconn ..."
First of all, Foxconn is from Taiwan, not China.

Second, no matter how much the submitter pigrabbitbear loaths Foxconn, the ill-feeling pigrabbitbear has towards Foxconn is NOT related to the story of TFA, and Samzenpus, the mod who approved the submit, should have known better than allowed "the already-loathed Foxconn" to pass through the approval process.

Slashdot is faltering, and it's not the users who has brought it down.

It's the moderators, such as Samzenpus, who have failed to carry out their job duty, in a professional manner.

--
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
Re:You know what else is a pain? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 20:50 · Score: 0

With vaginal fissures http://i.imgur.com/TPhm3.jpg
Globalism... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 20:56 · Score: 3, Insightful

I am NOT a fan of globalism. (But that doesn't mean I am a protectionist. I simply feel that it is unsustainable to expect a high wage economy to purchase high wage products indefinately, when employment rates in that high wage economy drop like rocks, as all the jobs move overseas, due to people chasing low low prices. The result muddies the market terribly, and I really don't see how it can be sustained. In the short term it makes you filthy ass rich. In the long term it causes protracted recessions.)
During the Cold War we in the West were sheilded from a huge pool of cheap skilled labor. This created a high standard of living in the West. When the Americans set out to destroy the economy of the USSR and 'won ' the Cold War they also made that pool of cheap labor available for exploitation by Western corporations. Naturally Western corporations sought to maximize their profits by migrating production facilities to where the most skilled of the cheap labor is, to the old 'Eastern Bloc', without thinking about the long term consequences since American corporations in particular are incapable of planning further ahead than one fiscal quarter. Are you missing Communism and the Iron Curtain yet? (That last part is sarcasm.)
Re:What is happening to Slashdot's submit process by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 21:45 · Score: 0

First of all, Foxconn is from Taiwan, not China.
Republic of China.
Re:What is happening to Slashdot's submit process by incer · 2012-10-17 22:20 · Score: 0, Redundant

First of all, Foxconn is from Taiwan, not China.
You mean the Taiwan which is officially named "Republic of China"?
Re:What is happening to Slashdot's submit process by Captain_Chaos · 2012-10-17 22:46 · Score: 2

Slashdot is faltering, and it's not the users who has brought it down.
It's the moderators, such as Samzenpus, who have failed to carry out their job duty, in a professional manner.

What else is new? That's been a problem around here for as long as I can remember. It's a shame the editors of Slashdot are so sloppy and unprofessional, and it's the reason I don't pay for a subscription.
Bah by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 23:08 · Score: 0

that's lame. There's no way China's top network tech company, ZTE (copycat company) would be outdone by that. They more than likely kidnap orphan children to work at their plants - and then eat or sell their organs - It's CHINA. Learn about it, you might be unpleasantly surprised...
Re:health care being tied to jobs hurts the USA fo by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 23:14 · Score: 0

Yes, blame it all on healthcare. That's the real issue hear .
Re:health care being tied to jobs hurts the USA fo by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 23:17 · Score: 1

The same applies to having unions, public transportation, democracy and other basic services that every civilized country has. Shall we get rid of them too?
I know, we can also cut the wages by half, then we can employ twice as much people! You're a genius!
Re:What is happening to Slashdot's submit process by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-17 23:56 · Score: 1

First of all, Foxconn is from Taiwan, not China.
Foxconn may be based in Taiwan but that doesn't mean it can't be the biggest electronics manufacturer in China.
Oh and you will be receiving a visit from some guys that would like to have a word with you about failing to recognize the "one China" policy...
Re:health care being tied to jobs hurts the USA fo by MachineShedFred · 2012-10-18 00:10 · Score: 1

If we don't fix the education system, and I mean right now, I'm going to go on a misspelling-induced violent rampage.
The "Hooked on Phonics" generation likely did more damage to employment in the US than traditional employer-based health care ever did.

--
Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
Re:What is happening to Slashdot's submit process by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-18 00:50 · Score: 1

Maybe you should vet your own submission process?

" China's largest electronics manufacturer, the already-loathed Foxconn ..."
First of all, Foxconn is from Taiwan, not China.
Yes, Foxconn's (Hon Hai Precision Industry Co., Ltd.) Corporate headquarters ARE in Taiwan, but their largest manufacturing plants are in mainland China. They ARE China's largest electronics manufacturer, period. (Smaller factories in Brazil, Hungary, Slovakia, Czech Republic, India, Japan, Malaysia and Mexico).
They are also loathed by anyone who cares about the rights of workers based on events from their China and Mexico operations.
Add to that the "Whiney" nature of damanding "I have to have my new, latest, greatest iPhone" fans, then, it does fit the article...
Incentives by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-18 01:29 · Score: 0

I'm guessing that offering each worker a free iPhone 5 won't help.
Re:What is happening to Slashdot's submit process by AliasBackslash · 2012-10-18 01:32 · Score: 4, Informative

" China's largest electronics manufacturer, the already-loathed Foxconn ..."
This is a quote from TFA not something the submitter wrote his/herself.
Good news iOS fans! by morgauxo · 2012-10-18 01:58 · Score: 1

This probably means there will be a lot of iPhone "knockoffs" on the black market that actually are iPhones but didn't pass quality inspections and were supposed to have been destroyed. More than usual I mean.
Re:What is happening to Slashdot's submit process by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-18 02:17 · Score: 0

Taiwan IS China.
Re:What is happening to Slashdot's submit process by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-18 03:16 · Score: 0

Island disputes? Taiwan is China
Bad PR? Taiwan is not China
Re:What is happening to Slashdot's submit process by mcgrew · 2012-10-18 03:44 · Score: 1

You can't have labor disputes until there is enough wealth in society for labor to start getting jealous
Labor disputes aren't caused by jealousy, they're caused by bad management. Treat your workers fairly and they won't unionize no matter what kind of economy you have.
you can't have enough wealth to spread around until the unparalleled might of capitalism builds it.
capitalism organizes it, LABOR builds it.
They tried it he communist way
Which was already shown not to work. Incentives like better working conditions and fair pay go a lot farther than threats of violence.

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Free Martian Whores!
Same person by pavon · 2012-10-18 03:45 · Score: 4, Informative

The submitter, pigrabbitbear, is the author/editor/whatever of the story. Everything he has ever submitted has been from motherboard.vice.com, and he even openly uses it has his contact link.
Re:What is happening to Slashdot's submit process by geekoid · 2012-10-18 03:57 · Score: 1

"Slashdot is faltering, "
no, it's the same as it's always been,.
Are you paid 50 cents to derail topics?
Yes, it's in Taiwan...which is part of China.
It's like saying a Hawaiian company isn't a US company.

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The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
Re:What is happening to Slashdot's submit process by rtb61 · 2012-10-18 03:59 · Score: 1

Would this be the same as your lame arsed comment with a huge block of blank space to suck up as much as possible of the first page. I'm sure you would have produced more blank space in the Slashdot auto comment rejected would have allowed it.
Foxcon is largely viewed as Chinese because that's where it's factories are that pay wages in cents on the dollar compared to the western world. Sure it's multi-billionaire owner who sent the supervisors of Foxcon to a major Chinese zoo to learn how best to handle 'ANIMALS' and use those methods on the 'ANIMALS' at the factory http://www.businessinsider.com/foxconn-animals-2012-1.
"Chinaâ(TM)s largest electronics manufacturer, the already-loathed Foxconn" is a direct quote from the site, that site of course being http://www.vice.com/en_au. Most definitely a very edgy web site with some great videos but no matter, a direct quote is a direct quote. No if you want to complain naughty, naught, poo, poo because the submitter did not properly reference the quote, well fine.

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Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
Re:What is happening to Slashdot's submit process by geekoid · 2012-10-18 04:00 · Score: 1

"Which was already shown not to work."
A) That's not true
B) China is hugely successful Communist government.
"Incentives like better working conditions and fair pay go a lot farther than threats of violence."
Threats of violence are totalitarianism, not communism.
Soviet Union didn't fall becasue of Communism.

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The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
Re:What is happening to Slashdot's submit process by Duhavid · 2012-10-18 04:01 · Score: 1

""You didn't build that business.""
There is plenty to criticize the Democratic party for without resorting to taking things deliberately out of context.
And if you are trying to say that China's govt is now free, it is my personal opinion that you need to take a closer look.
Adding a few trappings of capitalism to an authoritarian government does not make free, it makes fascism, IMHO.

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emt 377 emt 4
Wait for the robots by merxete · 2012-10-18 04:41 · Score: 0

Let's just wait for the robots to take over. Then, noone will have jobs anywhere. No need to hate on China anymore. Sheez, it's an obvious solution.
1. Re:Wait for the robots by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-18 04:46 · Score: 0
  
  Let's just wait for the robots to take over.
  I'm not worried. By then I'll be very old anyway... and I'll have Old Glory robot insurance too.
Re:What is happening to Slashdot's submit process by LynnwoodRooster · 2012-10-18 05:31 · Score: 1

"Which was already shown not to work." A) That's not true B) China is hugely successful Communist government.
China, communist? In name only. It's a fascist oligarchy. There are really no traces of communism there other than the label. No real social safety net, no guarantee of communal support. In many ways, the US is much more further along the socialist/communist scale than China. But I guess because they call themselves "Communist" they must be.
And North Korea really IS a Democratic Republic...

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Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
Apple's response to Foxconn: by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-18 05:57 · Score: 0

You're building it wrong.
Re:What is happening to Slashdot's submit process by DrStoooopid · 2012-10-18 06:17 · Score: 1

You're an idiot.
Taiwan is a separate country from China...it is NOT China, you fucking moron.
Learn2Geography, or don't they teach that in schools anymore?

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There are 2 groups of people you can make fun of on the Internet without fear of attack. The illiterate, and the Amish.
Not surprising. by screwdriver · 2012-10-18 06:56 · Score: 1

It's hardly surprising that the device is so difficult to assemble. It was designed that way to prevent "amateur" repairs thereby forcing consumers to replace a broken unit rather than repair it. Even the battery is not user replaceable.
Re:What is happening to Slashdot's submit process by Dayze!Confused · 2012-10-18 08:54 · Score: 2

No, it's more like if the South was still separated from the North and somebody from Florida built a factory in New York with their headquarters still in Florida. Is that a US company or a Confederate company? What if the North still claimed rule over the South but actually had not effect on the South other than keeping them out of any international organization and pointing missiles at them. Now imagine the South still has their own currency, health care system, President and Congress, hold elections and have vastly more human rights (I know, the human rights is probably swapped in this scenario). Oh but the North says there is only one America, so they bully the rest of the world into not officially recognizing the South as its own sovereign country.

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"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." [Thomas Jefferson]
Re:health care being tied to jobs hurts the USA fo by multipartmixed · 2012-10-18 10:06 · Score: 1

Most civilized countries have health care provided by the government, not [directly] the employer.
Employer-funded health care is lose-lose. It is a public health disaster. It turns employees with family members having "pre-existing conditions" into slaves. They might not be picking cotton or calling the boss man "massa", but they are slaves nonetheless, and slavery is WRONG. The only people who win are the plantation owners. Er, I mean, the top 1% of Romney's 47%.

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Do daemons dream of electric sleep()?
Drop-into-place assembly for VHS tapes too... by girlinatrainingbra · 2012-10-18 14:45 · Score: 1

VHS tapes are pretty much the same way. Take out the screws, flip the case, remove covering half, et la voila. Every piece in the interior can be taken out one by one (mostly) by lifting straight up, and reassembly just requires reversing the sequence. The only jig-zig is to thread the tape around the spools/capstans correctly. Then all of the pieces are locked in place with the grooves and recesses built into the plastic interior of the half-case-cover. (Had to do this to fix my mother's VHS tape of some early 1990's TV show!) It's a fun project to see all of the little locking mechanisms in place to keep the tape winding in one direction only unless the pin is pressed into the hole correctly. Many cool springs and little axle pieces that can be lost easily, and it's cool that you can buy one for less than a buck and have half-an-hour of fun taking it apart and putting it back together.
;>)
--giatb
Perspective by DarthVain · 2012-10-19 04:15 · Score: 1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Taiwan
Saw a power point a few days ago listing Taiwan as under China from some Chinese.
Apparently there is some dissagreement on this point depending on the perspective of the person.
Your statementy might be viewed by many to read, "Foxconn is from New York, not the USA". More complicated than that to be sure. But not as cut and dry as you make it sound, at least globally.
1. Re:Perspective by nobodie · 2012-10-20 09:32 · Score: 1
  
  That is correct. According to the CCCP (Central Communist Party of China) Taiwan is "the renegade Province." This policy refuses to recognize Taiwan as a separate state and countries that do recognize Taiwan, especially when it comes to seating in the UN or setting up diplomatic relations and exchange of ambassadors, will need to be super-powers to avoid China's wrath. They will cut you cold, and are quite serious about this. The US has one, but I don't think any countries in Africa or South America do, much less other smaller, Asian countries.
  
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Re:What is happening to Slashdot's submit process by Anonymous Coward · 2012-10-20 16:54 · Score: 0

Samzenpus, can you please do a better job on the submission approval process?

" China's largest electronics manufacturer, the already-loathed Foxconn ..."
First of all, Foxconn is from Taiwan, not China.
Second, no matter how much the submitter pigrabbitbear loaths Foxconn, the ill-feeling pigrabbitbear has towards Foxconn is NOT related to the story of TFA, and Samzenpus, the mod who approved the submit, should have known better than allowed "the already-loathed Foxconn" to pass through the approval process.
Slashdot is faltering, and it's not the users who has brought it down.
It's the moderators, such as Samzenpus, who have failed to carry out their job duty, in a professional manner.
Problem is, that is is a quote from TFA. But it shows a golden rule of Slashdot submissions: Never link directly to the original article, always to one that is as loosely based on it as possible.