The Long Reach of US Extradition

CuteSteveJobs writes "The New Matilda reports how the U.S. is now able to extradite people for minor offences, and asks why foreign governments so willingly give up their nationals to the U.S. to 'face justice' over minor crimes committed outside U.S. borders? Lawyer Kellie Tranter writes, 'the long arm of the Government is using criminal enforcement powers to enforce commercial interests at the behest of corporations and their lobbyists.' A former NSW Chief Judge said it was bizarre 'that people are being extradited to the U.S. to face criminal charges when they have never been to the U.S. and the alleged act occurred wholly outside the U.S.' He said although copyright violations are a great problem, a country 'must protect its nationals from being removed from their homeland to a foreign country merely because the commercial interests of that foreign country.' Australia recently 'streamlined' its laws to make extradition to the U.S. even easier."

Comments

There's a good dog

[walshy007]

Australia has been the US's lap dog for quite a few decades now. They say jump, we say 'how high?'.

Re:There's a good dog

[jonwil]

ok, so who do I vote for at the next Federal Election that isn't going to bow down to the US and to big US corporations?

Re:There's a good dog

[Dahamma]

Obama.

Re:There's a good dog

[Anonymous Coward]

It doesn't matter, as long as it's not Labor and not Liberal. It's the only way to send a message that you're not happy with either of them. Sadly, very few people ever do this.

Re:There's a good dog

[coma_bug]

Obama isn't running in 2013.

Re:There's a good dog

[Dahamma]

Whoosh.

Re:There's a good dog

[camperdave]

I don't think they have Republicans or Democrats in Australia.

Re:There's a good dog

[FirephoxRising]

Some Democrats (not like US ones, party severely damaged some time ago by defections and scandals) , there were Republicans, I think the party officially still exists, no actual politicians though. The major parties are Labour (more left wing) and Liberals (who oddly enough are very un-liberal conservatives). Then there are the greens and quite a few independents, and the National party which is mostly an appendage of the Liberals, mainly in inland country areas. None of them seem to have much backbone in foreign policy.

Re:There's a good dog

[Anonymous Coward]

What, not "a more vigorous breed of man" after all?

Re:There's a good dog

[Anonymous Coward]

Vote Pirate.

http://pirateparty.org.au

Re:There's a good dog

[aNonnyMouseCowered]

"The major parties are Labour (more left wing) and Liberals (who oddly enough are very un-liberal conservatives)."

Left and Right doesn't mean shit anymore in any of the major English-speaking countries. The mainstream parties all seem to favor copy monopolies and increased surveillance of citizens. UK's Labour was a willing partner in Bush Jr's Iraq misadventure. I also remember reading in the BBC how the party was actually disappointed over the Conservatives' decision to block security "hacker" Gary McKinnon's extradition to the US.

Re:There's a good dog

[Anonymous Coward]

ok, so who do I vote for at the next Federal Election that isn't going to bow down to the US and to big US corporations?

You're not really correct in calling them big "US" corporations. Many of these companies have major investors who are citizens of other countries, so while it might appear that your politicians are bowing to the US, in reality they are bowing to the rich and powerful in your own country.

Re:There's a good dog

[mrmeval]

These countries need to keep stroking US cock or they'll pay a terrible price. What that price is no one knows. Maybe we'll be stern with them. Maybe there's some secret orbital bombardment system us peons don't know about. Maybe these non-US countries need a spinal carbonate infusion. I'm an America, I am not the US and I find it tragic that so many countries kowtow to US. Get a spine. Where is the fun in ruling the world if everyone does your work for you? As an American I prefer insanely fierce competition, the US hands out money to GM losers yet I drive Toyota. I recognize excellence not political bull shit.

Give us our daily slap for we are not the be all and end all of human civilization.

Please.

Re:There's a good dog

[VortexCortex]

Australia has been the US's lap dog for quite a few decades now. They say jump, we say 'how high?'.

... Then I look at you crosswise and say: "I said JUMP, not Ask Questions!"

Re:There's a good dog

[Anonymous Coward]

...but remember an Australian (Rupert Murdoch) owns the most politically powerful media organization in the US. Murdoch is an kingmaker in America so maybe it's a weird feedback loop...

Re:There's a good dog

[Aaron B Lingwood]

Pirate Party Australia currently does not have the number of exclusive members required to register with the Australian Electoral Commission. This status is unlikely to change before the next election.

We do have a handful of more liberal minor parties that one can vote for, though most Aussies have never heard of them. Two that spring to mind are the Liberal Democratic Party and Australian Sex Party. Of course there is always The Greens, but who wants to undo centuries of human achievement and plunge back into the dark ages.

Re:There's a good dog

[Anonymous Coward]

Former Australian. He renounced dual citizenship for tax reasons.

Re:There's a good dog

[rmstar]

ok, so who do I vote for at the next Federal Election that isn't going to bow down to the US and to big US corporations?

The big parties everywhere reflect what they can get away with. If you want to change something, you have to infiltrate them. Which means going to local party meetings, arguing, etc. Just hoping that someone with the right ideas comes along so you can vote for him/her does not work.

Much of what happens depends on someone doing it, and if there is nobody to do it, it just doesn't happen. If you want change - make it happen. Organize anti-extradition rallies, generate awareness, etc.

Everybody blames the politicians, but you must as well blame the people who expect someone else to fix it for them.

Re:There's a good dog

[jonwil]

Only problem is that its getting harder and harder to organize protests and rallies without being harassed by the cops.
Its also hard to explain these sorts of issues to normal people or to convince them that its an issue that they need to care about.

Also, as we have seen many times over the years, just because "the people" want something doesn't mean the government will listen.

Re:There's a good dog

[nedlohs]

That would depend on who's running in your electorate. In the senate you can Langer vote below the line and stop your preference flow when you have exhausted the candidates who won't bow down to the US. For the house you'll have to find some way to rank the candidates that will bow down to the US or reach an agreement with some other people you trust to arrange your preferences so that your votes cancel out once you reach the bad candidates (if there are a lot of house candidates that will take a lot of people though).

Re:There's a good dog

[Anonymous Coward]

The funny thing is Obama corruptly sold the vice presidency to the copyright industry, and many people here, like last time, will completely and utterly ignore that, so the other guy won't win.

Re:There's a good dog

[flyneye]

I was just thinking " Good God! Elect me! I'll fix that crap and so much else to take us back to several states under the Constitution.
We will start by gutting the Uniform Commercial Code and eliminating anything not Constitutional and patching it with patriotic goodness as we go.
We will cut the NEED for so much defense spending by pulling troops back from all over the world and concentrate on defending our borders as prescribed Constitutionally. No more world cop for corporate interests.
We will eliminate the income tax and tariff imports as prescribed. Let the trade wars begin,you can keep your cheap plastic crap,Walmart is killing the little businesses anyway. Any U.S. corporation OUTSIDE the borders will pay EXTRA tax, since it can afford it. We need to make up for losses from outsourcing.
I'll send the Chinese a few dollars a month and send them any living criminals who made illegal deals and treaties during the Repubmocrat regime.
When the Repubmocrat congress and senate rebel or try to lame duck the Presidency, I will pull the C.I.A. files on their activities behind the scenes and the "treason purges" will begin. A fair trial and a decent hanging, televised from the White House Lawn, rose garden side. I suspect after the troublemakers are gone we can have a session without unnecessary drama. Illegal aliens OUT, SRS now fills those jobs with the able who are now cut off from assistance. Work or starve. Non violent Federal criminals are freed and made to pay restitution either by garnishment or in the event of unemployment, on a road crew for U.S. highways.(another way to save money on the overpaid 'tards just standing around watching a few overpaid 'tards work). I would urge the several states to do the same.
The government will quit protecting people from themselves. It's not social Darwinism, it's a human right to be left alone to do what you want as long as you harm no one else. Just be careful out there and use some sense, some won't and will take themselves out of the gene pool.
Churches, whose mission statement direct from Christs mouth, is to care for the poor, will take over that part of SRS duties. The Christians already pay a 10% "God tax" just for stuff like that, no need to dip twice from their pockets or even once from an atheist or other non church goer. I notice churches currently doing this don't require profession of faith to receive aid. Not a problem.
Yes, I plan quite an interesting eventful administration with the prize of a bright future at the end of it. I will do it inside of 4 years and don't care to be re-elected, unless of course you just HAVE to have me.
Now get out there and vote for ol' fly.
In short; we are going to mind our own business from now on, be a good neighbor to the rest of the world, eliminate corruption and make a bright future instead of what we have.

Re:There's a good dog

[drsmithy]

ok, so who do I vote for at the next Federal Election that isn't going to bow down to the US and to big US corporations?

Greens or Democrats.

Re:There's a good dog

[nedlohs]

The Liberals are not "very un-liberal conservatives" they are for economic liberalism (when compared with the labor party anyway) hence the name. If you want to use the American definition of liberal (social liberalism - center left) rather than the Australian definition (economic liberalism - center right) then obviously the names of Australian political parties won't make sense.

Re:There's a good dog

[NicBenjamin]

In an Aussie context "Republican" does not refer to a party, it refers to the political position that the Queen should be fired. Most Aussie pols in both parties are Republicans in this sense of the word. According to Aussie Republic activists, so are the people, but there actually a referendum on the issue fairly recently (late 90s), which they lost.

They claim it's because the Australian people want a US-Style, directly-elected, politically powerful President, whereas the pols just want to rename the un-elected, virtually powerless Governor-General President. I suspect they're deluding themselves.

Regardless, since then the monarchy's gained popularity in pretty much the entire Commonwealth, so I doubt that they will get another shot at firing the Queen. King Charles III will probably win the inevitable referendum after he inherits.

Re:There's a good dog

[MROD]

The main chain the the US have to pull is economic.

Basically, if the US decides that a country should suffer its roth then all it needs to do is put them on the "don't trade without a special license" list or require companies who sell to the federal government not to trade with that country. You'd be surprised at how effective that would be in hitting the economy of the target country, especially if it's a developed, industrialised one.

Re:There's a good dog

[eisonlyme]

just because "the people" want something doesn't mean the government will listen.

I may be a bit cynical here, but I generally think people respond to hype and fall for shite, an example but by no means a good one is just looking at the amount of people who fall for fake fb stories and get all riled up about it when it's not even true. This actually annoys the hell out of me. But I digress...
The point I was trying to make is just because the people want it doesn't mean it's right...Almost everyone in the US I meet tells me how they get taxed too much when in reality out of the OECD countries they are 4th lowest out of 33 countries OECD Tax rates ..just ahead of Mexico, Chile and Turkey..they want to pay less taxes but is that really the right thing for the country? NYT-why US People are wrong on tax rates
I could go on with examples...my daughter wants to eat nothing but cheesecake and coke...doesn't mean it's the right thing for her(or the people)...
Links are example only to back up my argument that many people really don't know what's good for them, feel free to add counter links as why people know best and I'd be happy to discuss :)

Re:There's a good dog

[History's Coming To]

As with Dem/Rep party politics, the UK's Labour and Conservative parties will always disagree with each other on principle, unless it's to give condolences to the family of dead soldiers, children etc. Pick a policy - there's a high chance that both parties will have both supported and criticised it at some point in the last decade, with a strong correlation to whoever was suggesting it at the time. Neither party is remotely concerned with evidence based policy while they're in a position to have a go at the other side, it's essentially just two groups of children trying to shout each other down.

Re:There's a good dog

[chihowa]

just because "the people" want something doesn't mean the government will listen.

I may be a bit cynical here, but I generally think people respond to hype and fall for shite, an example but by no means a good one is just looking at the amount of people who fall for fake fb stories and get all riled up about it when it's not even true. This actually annoys the hell out of me. But I digress...

The point I was trying to make is just because the people want it doesn't mean it's right...Almost everyone in the US I meet tells me how they get taxed too much when in reality out of the OECD countries they are 4th lowest out of 33 countries OECD Tax rates ..just ahead of Mexico, Chile and Turkey..they want to pay less taxes but is that really the right thing for the country? NYT-why US People are wrong on tax rates

I could go on with examples...my daughter wants to eat nothing but cheesecake and coke...doesn't mean it's the right thing for her(or the people)...

Links are example only to back up my argument that many people really don't know what's good for them, feel free to add counter links as why people know best and I'd be happy to discuss :)

People think they're taxed too much because they feel an economic squeeze and can point to taxes as a point where their money gets taken away from them. In addition to seeing a big chunk of money go away, they feel they have unmet needs. This generates that, "What the hell are we paying for?" feeling and animosity towards taxes.

And ultimately, why aren't the people right? Why can't we have cheesecake and coke at every meal? This is our society, and it's hard to believe that the optimal outcome is the system we have now. If people see our tax money as enriching a select few privileged people, is it unreasonable to complain?

Re:There's a good dog

[Xest]

"I also remember reading in the BBC how the party was actually disappointed over the Conservatives' decision to block security "hacker" Gary McKinnon's extradition to the US."

The Tories have once again reached the point where they're openly acting as "the nasty party" once more, and are so confident in the fact they've got another 2 - 3 years of being able to fuck out country about at will now the Lib Dems are willing patsys despite the Torys not fulfilling any of their obligations to the Lib Dems in the coalition agreement.

But despite this, I'm not going to be able to bring myself to vote for Labour next election, I'm unsure if I'll even vote at all this time as I'm really at a loss as to who to vote for (we don't get anything like the pirate party in our constituency). The reason I couldn't vote Labour is for precisely the sort of thing you mention - there are certain things from their time in power that were key reasons I and many others were glad to see them go, yet they haven't recognised their faults and denounced them.

The ID card database is still very much something Labour wants, they still think they were right to spend all that time trying to extradite McKinnon, and they still think they were right about the Digital Economy Act, they still think they were right to throw as many benefits around left right and centre as they did to the point of near bankrupting the country, they still think they did the right thing in blocking all accountability about the torture they let the security services be complicit in under their rule, and they still think things like the interception modernisation programme, and censorship laws were a good idea.

I think Labour are guaranteed a majority or coalition next election because of the public distaste of the Tories now, but I also think that whilst it means we can say goodbye to the vocal Tory right, borderline far-right that seems to be getting it's own way despite only comprising a minority of the Tory party, it means we're going to end up fighting the same old shit we did last time - ID cards, censorship and so on.

Re:There's a good dog

[CanEHdian]

...but if Obama wins in 2012, he's also going to be the President of Australia...

Re:There's a good dog

[SomeKDEUser]

The problem is that you can only do that once: when you do it, pain ensues. If the companies/economy recovers, they don't need you anymore. Also, there might be retaliation: when negociating with the EU, the US basicaly does as it is told. Which apparently leaves the US negociators flustered and confused.

Which matters little, because the same lobbyists are pushing in the same direction both side of the Atlantic, so there are no real disagreements anyway.

Re:There's a good dog

[CanEHdian]

Pirate Party Australia currently does not have the number of exclusive members required to register with the Australian Electoral Commission. This status is unlikely to change before the next election.

And what can be done about it? Are there any laws about how you are allowed to find new members? The way I see it, it can all be done electronically, and for the digitally disenfrenchised, all you have to do is carry around copies of the party Constitution, the Member Application Form, and envelopes with the address and a stamp.

NOTE: the party itself should scrutinize it's officers with a fine-tooth comb, one accusation of right-extermism (favourite) or any kind of illegal activity (drunk driving, etc.) and popular support will go down fast. The hardest thing is to get momentum. Once you have the momentum, getting members is easy: when people start believing it can actually change anything.

Re:There's a good dog

[Anonymous Coward]

Its not ignored, it's just a case of who would you rather get ass blasted by? Hollywood and Wall Street, or Wall Street and Hollywood?

Re:There's a good dog

[fustakrakich]

The Liberals are not "very un-liberal conservatives" they are for economic liberalism...

The most accurate term for them is 'neoliberal', and it also fits both major factions of the US's ruling party, and most all of Europe where right wing nationalism doesn't rule. It's people like Reagan, Thatcher, Blair, Harper, etc. Real social liberals that stand up against capricious, demented authority have virtually no real power or influence of any kind anywhere in the world. They are nothing more than figments of imagination.

Re:There's a good dog

[tqk]

... feel free to add counter links as why people know best and I'd be happy to discuss

No links are necessary. Just re-read the comments up to this point. Hell, just re-read TFS. By my count, we've now heard from posters from at least three countries (USA, Australia, Great Britain) who believe their governments are beholden to special interests, not their electorate or taxpayers, and no-one appears to have any clue as to what to do about it. I'll add Canada for four. Why the hell would you lobby to pay more for clearly dysfunctional democracy? Because they might fix a few potholes while we're all sold further down the river?

Wake up.

Re:There's a good dog

[tqk]

You'd have my vote, if I weren't on the wrong side of the 49th parallel.

Re:There's a good dog

[Anonymous Coward]

There is a world hierarchy of rich and powerful. Some individuals from the top layer reside elsewhere (and even rule their own countries), but most of them are Americans. America is the central castle town, treasury, and armoury of the world's ruling oligarchy.

Re:There's a good dog

[nedlohs]

Except it came first and "neoliberal" implies it is a late comer.

Re:There's a good dog

[eisonlyme]

Understand all you say about taxes, it was just a point that sometimes people don't understand the importance of certain topics and ideas. You can't pay no taxes and expect the world.

I also believe in the US it is more the tax breaks to the rich/business not the taxes going to the rich which has been the major issues (Lived in the US for 3 years, I'm from Australia, recently moved back 4 weeks ago to Oz).
That is my understanding from talking to the general population from big cities to small towns, I had to travel a lot for work to all kinds of places and almost everywhere I went people complained about paying tax, most had no idea they pay less then most developed nations, they all thought they had one of the highest tax rates. But you are spot on for why people think that, because they don't see where it's going and see what seems like their taxes feeding the rich...but that would be uninformed logic which is what my point is. Yes a lot is 'wasted', but a lot is for good and if there is an increase it increases both, that is just the nature of the system, which is also not going to change soon, the USA has a very complex tax system.

Though the example of my daughter I think is a good one, you asked "Why can't we have cheesecake and coke at every meal?" and the answer is you can...but do you eat like that? would you let your daughter eat like that? the answer would be no and the reason is because you are intelligently informed on health, you also want what is best for your daughter. I liken this to people all wanting something but they are uninformed, do not understand the consequences of what they want and do not understand that it may not be feasible or viable. So the theoretically (but not always!) informed/government says no...if it's a good government it would also give the reason why it's not good/feasible.

All up, in my long winded way I was just pointing out that we can't have everything we want as our wants are many times stupid and uninformed.

I am in now way supporting what the article is actually talking about, in fact I am extremely against this idea of being able to extradite for minor offences and having the US arm of law so long.

I'm just cynical of people :) after spending 90+% of my time travelling and meeting people around the world in all situations I don't have much faith in the common person :(

Re:There's a good dog

[eisonlyme]

I don't disagree with you and in the context of this article and think it's ridiculous that this is allowed to happen.
But comments meant nothing unless from informed people, though slashdot does have a substantial well read base, I would only take them with a grain of salt, most people are just complaining they don't like it, doesn't mean it might not be the right thing...thought it could very well be the wrong thing.

Though I do wonder what benefits they are getting out of these things?
Maybe there is some sociopathic reason, to use your example of potholes, because i do love examples:
The pot holes they fix save 100 people a year for the sake of sacrificing one person.

Do I think it's right that the US has it's arms here? hell no!

But I do also not know the reason why even though there is common ground of people not liking it why it was still done? On this case I think I am uninformed as there may be many benefits due to some agreement that we are getting out of it that like the example above it's better for more people then we can immediately see as we only notice the people getting sold down the river.

It's important people stand up for what they believe, but my general point was people generally are uninformed and will just vehemently oppose something they do not understand.
For the moment I don't like it and don't think it's right...But i'm uninformed and not going to take it at face value until it can be explained what...if any the benefits "filled potholes" may be.
If it's really is that bad, then i'll get up on my soap box (aka FB and twitter haha) and complain to the world(the few people who will see it) how screwed up i think it is. On this one if there is no greater than benefit i would be a part of a petition if it was at all possible.

Re:There's a good dog

[Anonymous Coward]

Is that surprising? Australia has consciously emulated every American since our earliest days. Every Australian dreams of being an American. It's the number one Big Holiday destination of Aussie travelers and honeymooners. And of course the ultimate win is to score a job in the States and then become a US Citizen.

Just go to any of our message boards and forums. At least once a day someone will start an "Act Casual" thread about how they their company is relocating them to America. The pride is unmistakable, as is the envy in the long stream of congratulatory replies that follow. Those who have already made the move regularly post messages that usually begin with "As you know, I'm in America now..." and again they are greeted with unconcealed envy and admiration by Aussies.

There's a reason the tune of 'Advance Australia Fair' is just a slowed down version of the US national anthem. Australia desperately wants to be America, and it has tried very hard to be America from day one. So is it any surprise that we will rollover and do absolutely anything the Americans want us to do? Fuck, we do it without even being asked.

Re:There's a good dog

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd do something different, but here is what I propose as an alternative, and the key is getting the US on par with the rest of the world. (Posting AC since I am at work):

1: I'd make being the US military as part of the country as being in the PLA is to the Chinese or the IDF for Israel. Two years mandatory draft civilian/military. This does two things. It takes people and gives them a chance to relocate, better that than being stuck in their 'hood where their only fate is prison or six feet under. Now with this additional manpower, some actual projects can get done. An added benefit is, if people are a lot more interactive with the military or the police, the stupid, paranoid conspiracy stuff will go away. Yes, there may be black helicopters, but if Cousin Jim is flying one, it is a lot less scary for the most part.

Of course, part of being a US citizen would be like a Swiss or Israeli citizen -- keep weapons maintained at all times. This sounds crazy, but when people know that firearms are just tools and no more, not instruments of divine warfare portrayed in the media, the need for the whole gun control pissing contest would be completely moot. It wouldn't hurt to have shooting teams as well, from the little leagues all the way to "Top Shot" capable shooters. Might as well turn it into a sport (and have rivals shoot at targets for championships as opposed to each other) since it isn't going away anytime soon. Call it zombie preparedness, hell, I don't care. Better to have more shooting ranges than hospitals. Make a national sport.

2: I'd cut the bullshit, and move the US to a single payer healthcare system. We can easily do this. Medicare and the VA may not be perfect, but they do a good job.

3: Similar with the auto system. When a person buys fuel or registers a vehicle, they get a large amount of no-fault coverage. Of course, fines will be income based. That way someone going 46 in an unmarked 45 construction zone won't owe a $500 fine and can't pay the rent, while someone else who has a wreck daily but can pay the points on the license isn't going to have carte blanche.

4: I would allow the Geo Group and CCA to have their contracts, except I'd pay to transition them from prisons to building schools and other non-detention facilities. They get their dollars, but they don't have to force people to be locked up for their stock to go up. Instead, their lobbyists can push for a senior health center or a rec center as opposed to longer prison terms to fill up the newly built Supermax. The 90% minimum bed rule would be tossed out the door.

5: I'd change over to a VAT system from the income tax system. That way tax credits are immediate.

6: I'd change the US driving laws to something closer to Germany's. Erratic driving, slamming on brakes in hopes of a rear-ender, running out of gas on a crowded highway, will be fined. People will understand the "zipper rule", or won't drive. Fining will be just like Europe, where the cop swipes the card, or scans the barcode on the iPhone on the spot for small violations. Larger fines will be income based.

In the commercial sector, if it isn't obviously driver error, if a fine happens due to a rig that isn't maintained, that is attached to the owner, not the driver. That way, some minimum wage slave doesn't take the fall because the owner decided to keep using retreads.

7: In addition, there would be a large funding push for self-driving cars, as well as a car rental system. This way, regardless if someone owns a vehicle or not, there would be one available, even if someone lived over in a rural area. In urban areas, for every square foot of space built in a high-rise, there would have to be some set aside for parking (both cars and bicycles), both for the customers, as well as public parking. This way, people still can access a downtown area and have a safe place to stash their rides regardless of how built up it gets.

8: I'd be in talks with GE and Toshiba for smaller nuclear reactors

Re:There's a good dog

[LastDawnOfMan]

Thank god you told me this...now I'll vote for Romney and the days of our country being the bully-boy enforcer for corporations will vanish!

Re:There's a good dog

[Anonymous Coward]

"Everybody blames the politicians, but you must as well blame the people who expect someone else to fix it for them." -

No, I don't *think* so - I'll just say the SAME thing which was said to myself coding on the job:

"You're paid to do the job since no one else here can - do it, & successfully - Yes, that's right: We expect those types of results!"

APK

P.S.=> I also didn't have a nearly GUARANTEED "billet"/meal-ticket for 2-4 yrs. as politicians do either... so, since they do? Yes, I expect them to perform well and solve the problems on their plate (just like any other PAID EMPLOYEE, which is in theory @ least, ALL THEY ARE, & an employee of ALL CITIZENRY they have in their domain per their title)

... apk

Re:There's a good dog

[tqk]

A few thoughts come to mind ... "Follow the money" especially. It appears to go from Hollywood (RIAA, MPAA, MafiAA) through the US Congress and the Department of Justice (DoJ) and the Department of Homeland Security's Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE). There's a revolving door between those five/six entities (ie. Chris Dodd --> MPAA, MPAA chief lobbyist --> DoJ). In Canada, the Tories are attempting to push a clone of the US' DMCA here, something they fought vociferously when the previous Liberal government was pushing it. Britain appears to be even further along. The US Trade Representative is pushing the TransPacific Partnership (TPP) in collusion with the legacy entertainment industry. They only grudgingly allow members of Congress to see what the TPP plan is, while his partners in the entertainment industry have full, unfettered on-line access.

This is happening all over the world in many countries. In France, it's HADOPI. New Zealand has a three strikes plan in place. In the US, ISPs voluntarily came up with their own six strikes policy to head off threatened legislation.

Our democracies are being bought and sold by deep pocketed legacy entertainment industries. They're getting their bought politicos to pass laws to criminalize what has until recently been civil issues, and we'll be living in "1984" because of this Regulatory Capture overreach that poisons our democratic institutions.

I say boycott them (Hollywood), but that appears to be an empty threat.

Re:There's a good dog

[Anonymous Coward]

You realise right that the greens support the BeyondZeroEmissions.org plan to actually fix this country's oil dependancy once and for all rather than just talking about climate change without any real action.

Re:There's a good dog

[gslj]

Some points I do agree with here, but

why have an X-Prize for thorium reactors when you can just (apparently) build reactors to the CANDU pattern and put thorium in them?

rather than just free education at the university, do what the Swedes do: if you get good grades in high school, the first year at university is paid for. Get good grades in that, and the second year is paid for, and so on.

the "everybody in the army" and "everybody has a gun" parts might make sense in an American cultural context, but I don't get it. As Weber said (and I paraphrase) the whole point of a state is that it has a monopoly on the use of force. No tool that is designed to do significant bodily harm is "just a tool."

-Gareth

Re:There's a good dog

[tnk1]

On a side note, Charles has not been a good name for Kings in the UK, any bets on if he doesn't use that name when he's King?

Re:There's a good dog

[FirephoxRising]

I wouldn't accept the libs as economic liberals, they are more like commercial/corporate liberals, they do not favour real free markets, they are in bed with big business and support them with policy.

Re:There's a good dog

[nomadic]

The corporation head that has exercised the most influence in US government action over the past two decades is Rupert Murdoch. Thanks, Australia.

Re:There's a good dog

[Anonymous Coward]

i hate to say he told you so...

thanks for playing.

Re:There's a good dog

[NicBenjamin]

I wouldn't bet on a change from Charles. He seems to like the name.

He might go with George instead, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Re:There's a good dog

[walshy007]

No tool that is designed to do significant bodily harm is "just a tool."

All objects are just tools, unless you are suggesting a firearm can think and act for itself?

Re:There's a good dog

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think Charles will ever reign, given that the last British monarch to sit the throne after having been divorced was Henry VIII (and let's not forget Edward VIII and Mrs Simpson).

I think it's much more likely that he'll stand aside and allow the throne to pass on to William. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Elizabeth eventually abdicates in William's favour.

Re:There's a good dog

[Anonymous Coward]

The LDP seems to be rather too libertarian in their attitudes to corporate power, climate change, and so on, but that could just be that the members I've spoken to are unrepresentative.

Re:There's a good dog

[Anonymous Coward]

Democrats

IIRC Sandra Kank was the last Democrat in office, and she was a nutter.

Liberals (who oddly enough are very un-liberal conservatives

That's because "liberal" means Squiffite - in terms of domestic policy, the Liberal Party of Australia is recognisably similar to the Liberals under Asquith, and, if you remember, Churchill said "we are all liberals now" after he crossed the floor for the second time. (Their attitude towards foreign affairs is more Conservative, but so were the remaining non-Lloyd George Liberals in the UK when Menzies started the LPA.)

The Nationals do have some policy differences: in particular, they still want a return of the Single Desk export system and approve of nationalised services, but they don't want environmental regulation except where needed to protect farmers and they are generally socially conservative, so they can't really form a federal coalition with anyone else. That's why a SA National MLC joined Rann's government.

(BTW: the ALP is officially spelt Labor, because they were originally in favour of spelling reform (to improve educational outcomes for the lower classes), and they've never bothered to change it.)

Re:There's a good dog

[AK Marc]

Work or starve.

I was with you up to there, but there are so many who can't take care of themselves, and society has determined that those do can't care for themselves should be helped. I agree with that call.

Re:There's a good dog

[flyneye]

That's where the church comes in.
Obviously, I was making reference to those who can work. I did use the word "able" if you look.

Re:There's a good dog

[flyneye]

It's not all a loss, under the Obama administration, it was meant for illegal aliens, prisoners and the dead to vote. I don't know why foreigners should be excluded. LOL
Thanks for your sentiment. : )

Re:There's a good dog

[flyneye]

1. I love it. Careful about the "citizen " language here. Citizens have fewer rights than " the people of the several united states" if you check Constitutions and Bill of Rights. The language is important, yet obfuscated, generally to the public.

2. No public health care, but there will be regulation of the medical industry and enough leverage and legislation to end the horse-shit.
No requirements for people to buy anything. It falls under being able to do what you want with yourself.

3.The insurance industry faces regulation as well under my administration. No one will be required to insure for anything, although I would advise it.
Otherwise if you total someones new car or your own, it comes from your own pocket and could mean garnishment. Not very convenient, but it is right. I like your income based fines.

4.Not sure I understand what is going on in this one....I DID just send 90% of prisoners home to pay restitution and put money back into their community rather than soaking up more than $60,000 of taxpayer $ per capita per year. We have EXCESS prison space and the violent ones can be segregated and watched more closely now, without a stream of revenue from the "fish" paying protection and running scams and loot for them.

5.No new taxes, No old Taxes.No individual income taxes. The Fed is going to be pared down to doing only those things constitutionally defined and needs only the money from tariffs on imports and taxing U.S. companies operating abroad. Think it doesn't sound like much especially since I just started a trade war? It will be. No one of significance is going to quit trading with us. They will fight it and whine about it and there will be shortages, but everything will work out in the end. The laws of supply and demand always prevail.We need re-negotiation anyway. China will be dealt with. I might add that like a bank, we can sell and trade debt as well. Do you know how much money we are owed? How much we can charge for military aid, just by drawing up a bill? I'll hand a stack of debts to China and say "Collect it! there is much more there than we owe you." Now those ungrateful for our aid can negotiate a payment plan with China. Take it or leave it, we protect only our own borders now with all the weaponry we used to police the world with.

6.I like the idea, but I'll leave that business to the several states.

7.I like the idea, but I'll leave that business to the several states.

8.Again, the private sector in the several states can play with that baby.

9.,10.,11. more private sector/state operations.

12. Yes regulate the airlines. No TSA. Local police can profile anyone who looks suspicious, including by race and religion. It is not foolish to single out the most likely suspects even if they don't like being a higher risk due to their own circumstances. More of the several states issue.

13.Infrastructure is the responsibility of the people of the several states, we only regulate commerce and protect their interests constitutionally.

14. Telcos will be regulated, there will be no monopolies.I suspect the whole telco business will evolve beyond the current mess when their corruption is regulated away. Payola to politicians can be rewarded with treason charges to both parties. Did I mention my publicly viewable executions for treason?

15.Several states again. I would encourage everyone to take all of Saturday off and push for local legislation if it is really that necessary.
People generally do what they want anyway.

16.17.I covered that bit.

18,19.I would open a Constitutional Convention and add a strong definition of personal privacy to the Bill of Rights with my new, cooperative Congress. I think we could get it down to no retention and only live monitoring of cameras for law enforcement.

20.Nope, No EU, No U.N.(which will be asked politely to leave and set up the Mickey Mouse Club elsewhere as we are no longer a member. The building will be donated as a homeless shelter to charity. We will do our o

Re:There's a good dog

[ghostdoc]

the queen doesn't get fired, it'd take England to become a republic for that to happen (interesting thought... if England became a republic before Australia, would the royal family move Down Under?)

From my exhaustively-gathered and utterly scientific data collection (talking to random people in pubs), I think there's a narrow majority for Australia becoming a republic when herself dies, regardless of who's in line next.

Re:There's a good dog

[KingBenny]

so, like any other place in the world they turn to the right side of the classical line and call it something else. It's a scary fact if this continues to escalate i might consider becoming a fanatic muslim or jew, at least they havent lost their middle finger yet

Re:There's a good dog

[Meski]

and counter-whoosh.

Re:There's a good dog

[Anonymous Coward]

and its ALL thanks to that archaic out of date document (from when the US were the 'good guys' after WW2)....the ANZUS Treaty....which most modern Australians have never even heard of (prob coz of the OUTRAGE it would cause in Australia....the media not so much keeps it hushhush, but more so never actually reminds us of it's existence).....unfortunately, not one single Australian pollie has had the balls or the clout to Question this Document's relevance in the Modern World (as it does make us complicit in whatever horrid military obscenity the US is currently inflicting on the Planet......and I am NOT ok with that)

Re:There's a good dog

[mrmeval]

Color me ignorant but where would I find or subscribe to a list of such trade restrictions?

Re:There's a good dog

[MROD]

Well, for one of them just read the license agreement for any software which contains cryptography.

Re:There's a good dog

[Anonymous Coward]

Back when the Liberal Party was formed in Australia, "liberal" had a quite different meaning in the UK and Europe to the social policy umbrella term as it is used now in the US. See Wikipedia. It as far closer to what we would now consider to be right-leaning libertarianism: small efficient government, limitations on government power and standing up for the individual against government and corporate domination. Even with the "right-leaning" preposition (really about individualism perhaps) you'd have to go hard libertarian to find any party like that now and the meaning of "libertarian" has also been adapted in the US to mean something else. You will notice that US Republicans, UK Tories and the "Liberal" Party in Australia only play the we-stand-for-the-individual card when convenient, otherwise they are the parties of big business.

Re:There's a good dog

[camperdave]

The Queen of Australia is a legally different person from the Queen of England. Elizabeth can get fired from her roll as Queen of Australia without her sovereignty over England being affected.

Re:There's a good dog

[Reziac]

I was gonna ask... how is the US Gov't "forcing" extraditions for minor offenses, without the compliance of the other government? Cuz you need either that, or an armed invasion force.

Re:There's a good dog

[snadrus]

US Tax isn't too much, but all the other taxes add up too: School tax is highest of any country, State Income Tax, Sales Tax, Gas Tax, Property Tax. All combined buy a worse school system than most anywhere, no healthcare insurance (and it's required by law, a tax in itself). Then to actually do anything you've got car insurance (required) and many other costs. The taxes are bearable, but accomplish less than almost anywhere.

Pleb? Who cares?

[whoever57]

What do the elites care if a few plebs get sent abroad?

Mods: Before you mod me down, google "plebgate" or "pleb uk"

Re:Pleb? Who cares?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ugh, am I the only one who thinks the "elites" should have to prove themselves in hand-to-hand combat with whoever they are trying to enforce their bullshit on?
I mean...people are always talking about how the US does too much to other countries, but then they streamline it for us...let us take over their land for an embassy...

Re:Pleb? Who cares?

[ulricr]

Ugh, am I the only one who thinks the "elites" should have to prove themselves in hand-to-hand combat with whoever they are trying to enforce their bullshit on?

yes

Re:Pleb? Who cares?

[MrL0G1C]

So he swore at some police, like so fucking what? They can be obnoxious overbearing officious twats, especially when it comes to cyclists.

I really don't see why he's resigning. The current crop of Tories (UK gov't party) are all rich and I expect they all think they are above 'the commoners'. Perhaps this is it, he's not allowed to say what the Tories think of the voters. Not that I like Tories, they're ****s.

One thing is certain. . .

[cold fjord]

Nothing in this discussion will be alarmist or overstated in any way.

Re:One thing is certain. . .

[ThatsMyNick]

That is an overstatement. You have actually contradicted yourself.

Re:One thing is certain. . .

[Anonymous Coward]

Nothing in this discussion will be alarmist or overstated in any way.

That is an overstatement. You have actually contradicted yourself.

That's one of the reasons why it's funny.

Re:One thing is certain. . .

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, no reason to be alarmist about the number of overstatements.

Re:One thing is certain. . .

[Anonymous Coward]

Careful my friend, you don't want to peak early, it's nearly 4 years til the next Olympic pedantralon.

Re:One thing is certain. . .

[Em Adespoton]

That is an overstatement. You have actually contradicted yourself.

(Gasp) How shocking!

Re:One thing is certain. . .

[cold fjord]

That is an overstatement. You have actually contradicted yourself.

It turns out that irony is not just an under-appreciated literary device, it apparently is an often unrecognized one as well.

nocookies

[Anonymous Coward]

second link goes to slashdot/nocookies

Bribery

[mbone]

Countries allow this sort of abuse because the right people (or entities) have been bribed. Of that, you can be sure. The real question is, is it legal bribery (AKA "foreign aid," or other forms of government money), quasi-legal bribery ($13,000 sex parties paid for by lobbyists, anyone?), or the good, old-fashioned, illegal sort ?

Re:Bribery

[Anonymous Coward]

Several US Congressmen have said off record that they were threatened that if they voted against the PATRIOT act, bad things would happen to them personally.

Several US Congressmen have also said that martial law was threatened if they voted against the bank bailouts.

There is a hidden world government and the US is their enforcer.

100 years ago, the UK was their enforcer and look where it got them.

Re:Bribery

[Endovior]

You got a citation for those assertions, or just random unfounded conspiratorial ranting?

Re:Bribery

[Anonymous Coward]

My guess: the US government has given filtered access to their signals intelligence to those foreign governments.

The US government has access to mass surveillance data. Giving limited access costs the US almost nothing but foreign governments would be slobbering over it. After all, this is to catch terrorists. They don't advertise it because it's unconstitutional, intelligence agencies want to avoid being called to account and knowledge of it by opponents would cause reduced effectiveness.

Re:Bribery

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me guess - the US wasn't allowed to snoop on US citizens, so it made deals with allies to do snooping on US citizens for them (in return for US intel). Now that US citizens no longer have any rights, the US can snoop on them without needing any allies, so the allies need to sign extradition treaties for brownie points.

Re:Bribery

[westlake]

You got a citation for those assertions, or just random unfounded conspiratorial ranting?

Bribery is the geek's all-purpose explanation for any legal decision --- in any court in the world ---he doesn't like. It is so much easier then trying to understand the role of the judge and the differences between different legal traditions.

Re:Bribery

[tqk]

Bribery is the geek's all-purpose explanation for any legal decision ...

Why are you bringing up bribery when this sub-discussion is about purported threats to politicians if they didn't toe the party line?

Re:Bribery

[MysteriousPreacher]

Posting in lieu of having an option to mod this as being "What did I just read?"

Re:Bribery

[Anonymous Coward]

Several US Congressmen have said off record that they were threatened that if they voted against the PATRIOT act, bad things would happen to them personally.

And then the Congressmen that wanted to seriously investigate the 9/11 terror attacks and follow the money trail... got anthrax in the mail and died.

Re:Bribery

[tnk1]

It all makes sense if you understand Nature's Harmonic Time Cube Principle.

Re:Bribery

[Anonymous Coward]

Because every carrot is also a stick.

Re:Bribery

[AK Marc]

There's no difference. A bribe is a negative threat (do what I want, or I won't do what you want), and a threat is a positive threat (do what I want or I'll do what you don't want). They are two sides of the same coin. And why are you bringing up "party line" when the issue crossed all party lines?

Re:Bribery

[mrmeval]

Very good whiskey and an utter disrespect of the conspiriakii crowd. Most of their stuff reads almost like that though I seem to have failed to recover and expose the mockery in the last sentence. At least the offtopic modder read it. ;)

Re:Bribery

[MysteriousPreacher]

Good whiskey, and mocking the unintelligible conspiracy nuts = win*2

Re:Bribery

[alexo]

Countries allow this sort of abuse because the right people (or entities) have been bribed.

Not necessarily.
Another explanation is that those countries' governments completely agree with the actions but would rather not perform them themselves for fear of voter backlash.

Fixed link ** Re:nocookies

[CuteSteveJobs]

Sorry. Not sure how that happened, but it was supposed to go here:

"ATTORNEY-GENERAL Nicola Roxon has authorised the extradition of an ethnic Tamil, wanted by the US on offshore terrorism charges, despite his fears he will be deported to Sri Lanka and punished. Ms Roxon signed the extradition order in February, sparking a legal challenge by the man's lawyers, who insist he has never been a threat to the US or Australia and that the alleged offences are more political than security-related. Documents obtained by The Australian under Freedom of Information laws show the extradition case was considered especially sensitive by Australian bureaucrats ... The FOI decision-maker has censored 1 1/2 pages of the preliminary advice to Ms Roxon, fearing the contests would harm international relations."
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/foi/roxon-clears-tamils-extradition-to-us/story-fn8r0e18-1226438076806

Re:Fixed link ** Re:nocookies

[Smartcowboy]

cutestevejobs?

you were his own personal minime?

Re:Fixed link ** Re:nocookies

[cold fjord]

That would be minimeme.

They told me...

[AntiBasic]

They told me if I voted for McCain, we'd see corporations exerting even more control over federal laws... and they were right!

Whu? Whu? I thought this was america!

[Anonymous Coward]

copper > No, sir, this is Australia

dunkard> Then why are you cuffing me for beating someone up in America? Can't I defend myself? I thought this was America!

copper> First, this is Australia, and second, this is Australia.

drunkard> Whu? Whu?

Two endings

[evil_aaronm]

1. "Welcome to America, we hope you'll enjoy your stay in one of our excessively numerous prisons."
2. "I say, mates, fuck America! We don't have to take their crap! Those yanks don't control us! Do we stand for freedom, or do we stand for cowardice? Now, who's joining me on this kamikaze mission?!"

Bribery- "U scratch my back".

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe, or maybe it's more a reciprocal arrangement. We get some of their citizens, they get some of their more troublesome ones back. Maybe we can help other countries with their "issues" and every country has "issues".

This is,

[Truekaiser]

One of the main reasons why the united states is not well liked by a lot of countries.
Think for a moment, imagine say, China, Russia, or say Norway, bullied its way into other countries in such a way that non-citizens of these countries could be 'deported' to them to face punishment. Punishment for laws they did not know about, or are not against the law in their own countries but against the law there.

Re:This is,

[Genda]

Friend, the Americans aren't too happy with America right now. What they're (American Corporations) doing to your country they're doing vigorously all over America, and they're a damn site closer here, so if its chafing you, its frigging killing us.

This strikes me as a powerful indication of the state of the world. The Nation state is in decline. The multi national corporation is calling the tune, and the laws are now being adjusted to ensure that any infraction against the all mighty corporation anywhere on the planet is dealt with swiftly and with overwhelming force. The new terrorist is anyone who isn't consuming his proper allotment and paying his bills. Now might be a good time to take our world back.

Re:This is,

[Darinbob]

On the other hand, I suspect the US is doing this more often because countries keep complying. So the US pushes a little further, other countries comply a little more, repeat.

Re:This is,

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure that established practices will easily expand to include China as the power balance continues to shift.
Boots taste alike.

Re:This is,

[CodeBuster]

Now might be a good time to take our world back.

They've got you outvoted, outnumbered and outgunned which means you lose. Thanks for playing!

Re:This is,

[sociocapitalist]

Friend, the Americans aren't too happy with America right now. What they're (American Corporations) doing to your country they're doing vigorously all over America, and they're a damn site closer here, so if its chafing you, its frigging killing us.

This strikes me as a powerful indication of the state of the world. The Nation state is in decline. The multi national corporation is calling the tune, and the laws are now being adjusted to ensure that any infraction against the all mighty corporation anywhere on the planet is dealt with swiftly and with overwhelming force. The new terrorist is anyone who isn't consuming his proper allotment and paying his bills. Now might be a good time to take our world back.

The nation states where freedom and privacy used to mean more than they do today are in decline.

The nation states where freedom and privacy mean nothing are not in decline...they are growing in power.

Unfortunately we in the developed countries that are in decline are not unhappy enough in large enough numbers to effectuate change at this time. Only when the balance of unemployed vs. owners reaches critical mass will change become possible.

Re:This is,

[Jessified]

And on that note: Prisons in the US are major business. And what do you do when you've mostly saturated your home market (with the US leading the world in incarceration)? You begin extraditing people from other countries.

U.S.A! Number 1!

Re:This is,

[Anonymous Coward]

Friend, the Americans aren't too happy with America right now. What they're (American Corporations) doing to your country they're doing vigorously all over America, and they're a damn site closer here, so if its chafing you, its frigging killing us.

This strikes me as a powerful indication of the state of the world. The Nation state is in decline. The multi national corporation is calling the tune, and the laws are now being adjusted to ensure that any infraction against the all mighty corporation anywhere on the planet is dealt with swiftly and with overwhelming force. The new terrorist is anyone who isn't consuming his proper allotment and paying his bills. Now might be a good time to take our world back.

Cut the crap, its American who are employed in the corporations and manage them. Its people like you who are doing it. Cut the we are also victims BS.

Re:This is,

[indytx]

The multi national corporation is calling the tune, and the laws are now being adjusted to ensure that any infraction against the all mighty corporation anywhere on the planet is dealt with swiftly and with overwhelming force.

Hey!!! Corporations are people, too!

Re:This is,

[Genda]

Cut the crap? Okay by the numbers, 2% of our population is in prison, more than any developed nation on the planet, and with prisons everywhere switching over to private institutions, and prisoners working for $0.50 an hour welcome to the future of the American laborer. Since 2000 there have been half a dozen economic crashes destroying jobs and combined with corporations outsourcing jobs to India, China and a dozen other countries, entire regions have suffered economic collapse and acquired names like "The rust belt". Since the last major disaster, millions have lost jobs they will never see again. In fact the new jobs that have become available since 2008 are predominantly service jobs that forces 50 and 60 somethings to utter the phrase "Would you like fries with that burger?" Retirement accounts gone. Pensions gone. Health care gone, Benefits evaporating. Just this week our nation set an all time record for the number of people receiving food stamps. The top 400 richest people in America now have the same wealth as the poorest 165,000,000. The average wage is shrinking faster than the number of honest men in our government. Inflation, due to printing endless tons dollars to cover the bad debt of the bankers, is imploding the American economy, and fast destroying what little buying power remains in the middle class. The corporations are no longer loyal to America and have sucked it dry and are now in the process of throwing away the dry husk... so what part of this sounds to you like bull shit, because I can speak from personal experience, this decade of the corporation has ruined me financially, and I have so many friends and acquaintances that have suffered the same its almost a cliche.

Re:This is,

[lxs]

I don't live in the US, and I'm not a US citizen, but I don't blame the US for trying to get people extradited. I do however blame my own government for not properly protecting its citizens by complying too easily with every request.

Re:This is,

[VortexCortex]

Unfortunately we in the developed countries that are in decline are not unhappy enough in large enough numbers to effectuate change at this time.

Unfortunate indeed. FTUSDI:

[...] whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

What's that they say of the cyclic nature of history? I put it to you that it's not enough to know history to avoid repeating it; We must also be mindful of it always. Otherwise, in the end there will be lots of, "sorry, but you leave us no choice" on both sides of the double edged sword of power.

Re:This is,

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey!!! Corporations are people, too!

But as every director/CEO learns, corporations can't go to prison. And the fines against a corporation are a fraction of their revenue. So, an amoral corporation is behoved to do anything which isn't blamed on a director.

Re:This is,

[drinkypoo]

I don't live in the US, and I'm not a US citizen, but I don't blame the US for trying to get people extradited.

Well, you should. It's part of our prisons-for-profit program, and you should be concerned about that.

Re:This is,

[baffled]

Now might be a good time to take our world back.

Take it back, indeed. The corporations aren't headless monsters, they do have directors and motives. Any given corporation can be targeted, and its' actions affected with the right approach. This could involve piles of cash to buy your way in, or bending motives in a field-centric way. Either/both avenues can be followed simply with hordes of average-joe participants.

An organization of the willing, coordinating efforts, identifying & focusing on the most critical/effectual corporations, would seem the logical approach. Any takers?

Re:This is,

[Anonymous Coward]

Corporations only have the power given to them by the state.. All of this blame corporation crap is missing that key critical point. You give the government too much power and they will abuse it whether it is direct or by proxy.

So keep asking for big government.. It's exactly what you will get.

Re:This is,

[Schmorgluck]

When the government violates the people's rights, insurrection is, for the people and for each portion of the people, the most sacred of the rights and the most indispensable of duties.

Gilbert du Motier, marquis de Lafayette, 1790.

Re:This is,

[Phrogman]

All corporations should be inherently amoral. If they took a morale stance that would limit their profit potential and not be in the interests of the owner or the shareholders as the case may be. Not that there aren't corporations which take a moral stance of a sort but its usually just for the sake of their public reputation and thus only skin deep.

Capitalism is not a positive moral force in the world, rather the complete opposite - the structuralization of Greed.

Re:This is,

[gmuslera]

Why not put as example countries where religion and culture is different enough to yours to consider crimes things that you consider normal? What if you have sex with your sleeping wife and get deported to Sweden? Or women extradited to some muslim countries because had sex before or outside marriage? Probably there are a lot of "outrageous" laws out there, that you would rebel if get deported because of them. In the other side, being imprisoned and deported for copying bytes of information, not hurting (specially in a physical way) anyone, could not be rational neither, specially when is promoted in the same country driving drunk and potentially kill a lot of people in the process have lesser consequences.

Re:This is,

[westlake]

entire regions have suffered economic collapse and acquired names like "The rust belt".

The rust belt is defined by the heavy industries that became dominant in the northeast and the mid-west after the Civil War and which prospered through World War II and on into the fifties.p There were good jobs to be had here in high-wage union labor.

But at enormous cost to the environment --- and little post-war investment in infrastructure. In the sixties the bills came due.

It was simpler and cheaper to abandon the works in place and move south and west.

Re:This is,

[sociocapitalist]

What's that they say of the cyclic nature of history? I put it to you that it's not enough to know history to avoid repeating it; We must also be mindful of it always. Otherwise, in the end there will be lots of, "sorry, but you leave us no choice" on both sides of the double edged sword of power.

History is already repeating and now we have to continue the change to completion as we have lost any sense of balance between right and left, between rich and poor, between the educated and the ignorant, between the manipulators and the manipulated.

It is too easy to imagine a not too distant future where the wealthy and powerful, become nobility, have control of the jobs, the police and the military to a point where the rest of society will no longer be able to achieve change.

Re:This is,

[metlin]

Let me introduce you to the British East India Company. Sound familiar?

That's right, the corporations have been calling the shots for over 400 years now. Nothing has changed.

Re:This is,

[tqk]

The new terrorist is anyone who isn't consuming his proper allotment and paying his bills.

Hmm. That describes me at the moment, and with the first snow of a Canadian winter falling now, I might welcome being renditioned to Cuba.

Re:This is,

[Genda]

And who decided it was easier to stop investing in our infrastructure? We could have modernized.We could have developed cleaner, leaner methods and technologies for getting the job done. We could have demanded a balanced trade abroad and ensured that our middle class was protected from the devaluation of the dollar and loss of jobs to foreign nationals. You say the jobs went west and south, yeah west all the way to India and China, and south to latin America. The collapse of the rust belt may have begun in the 60s, but it lasted through the 80s. And not just the iron and heavy industry either. In 1984, 99% of the clothing people in this country wore came from manufacturers in the U.S. By 2005, less than 2% was made in this country. FACE IT, our government, paid and bought by the corporations are in the final phases of bleeding this nation dry.

Re:This is,

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow.
In Mexico. They just approved a law to pay minimum wage exactly that: about $0.50 an hour.
But for normal citizens!

Re:This is,

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope, GP is spot on. I come from a European country, where most of my friends were quite annoyed at the US' corrupt brain-dead political system and its psychopathic international policies that defeat their own purpose. I knew there were Americans thinking the same, yet nothing could have prepared me for the sheer rage and exasperation I encountered in "leftist" circles after coming to the US. These people get so angry when talking about US politics and international policies that I'd be afraid they would pop a vein. For them, it's not merely a remote country that gets into the news doing stupid and annoying things; it's their taxpayer's money that gets abused for doing these atrocities and their reputation getting ruined with their international friends. And it's not that they're not trying; the people I speak of are highly politically engaged, actively campaigning for a better country and a better world and sacrificing a significant amount of their free time in the process - free time that is way scarcer than a European could think it could be in The Capitalist Paradise. It's just that their voice doesn't get heard. It's generally considered politically incorrect for the big mainstream media to perform the scathing attacks the US political system badly deserves; the big news outlets are all about making money and nothing about journalistic responsibility. Also, the educational system doesn't exactly seem to encourage independent critical thinking, and there are a lot of misconceptions and outright lies a large portion of the population has grown up with. I also blame cold war propaganda for this; the nation as a whole doesn't seem to have realized that the cold tug of war has ended and that if it keeps on pulling towards the ultraneocapitalist extreme without anyone pulling back, it's going to end up falling on its ass. The voice of the actually-not-so-few that see things clearly gets drowned by, as another poster put it, the knuckle-dragging mouth-breathing masses.

(Posting anonymously to avoid undoing moderation)

Re:This is,

[Anonymous Coward]

The top 400 richest people in America now have the same wealth as the poorest 165,000,000.

This sounds dramatic, but it's actually not that surprising. A lot of people are in debt, like former students who haven't finished paying off their student loans, and have negative net wealth. That doesn't mean that they're badly off - they might be in well-paying jobs, and on track to pay their loans off in a year or two. But if there are 100,000,000 such people, then an eight-year-old who's just received his $2 weekly allowance still has more wealth than the poorest 100,000,000 people.

Re:This is,

[Anonymous Coward]

Now might be a good time to take our world back.

Take it back, indeed. The corporations aren't headless monsters, they do have directors and motives. Any given corporation can be targeted, and its' actions affected with the right approach. This could involve piles of cash to buy your way in, or bending motives in a field-centric way.

A series of assassinations of major multinational corporate leaders and principal stakeholders/shareholders with thoughtfully chosen targets would go a long way toward bending motives, and would be much more cost-effective.

Re:This is,

[cpghost]

This strikes me as a powerful indication of the state of the world. The Nation state is in decline. The multi national corporation is calling the tune, and the laws are now being adjusted to ensure that any infraction against the all mighty corporation anywhere on the planet is dealt with swiftly and with overwhelming force.

Some 25 to 10 years ago, SF literature was full of dystopian stories about mega-corps taking control over the world, and Nation States being but ridiculous puppets on a string. This leitmotiv that was a staple of SF back then slowly faded away recently. I'm wondering why. Maybe because it's already become reality?

Re:This is,

[cpghost]

I'd rather say that Corporations are gangs of people that are legalized by the State, because they pay taxes. And because the State itself is the biggest gang of them all, we're all living in a kind of hierarchical order of gangs, going from the top-tier (States) to the bottom (little Corporations). Whether this is better or worse than the old feudal system where gangs were organizedi n a flatter hierarchy, and where there was much more in-fighting going on between them, remains to be seen.

Re:This is,

[Anonymous Coward]

Now might be a good time to take our world back.

Ok man. Lead the charge! Ready, Go!

I'm right behind you!

uber lords

[harvey the nerd]

Those who have already lived in US sponsored dictatorships may better realize that the US government is already far more dangerous than the Nazis in terms of surveillance capability and raw power. So far, too few US citizens seem to recognize that millions of people suffered, or died, in a blatantly illegal, ruinously expensive war with Iraq that appears to be preparatory for domestic use. At least realize enough to stop it, permanently.

Re:uber lords

[Genda]

Oh no, There are a huge number of American's who are perfectly clear what's going on, and we have no illusions to what our nation has evolved into over the last 30 years, though as you suggest a vast mouth breathing, knuckle dragging majority has voted for its own slow motion suicide. As Mussolini said, fascism is the corporate state, and we are now all becoming pawns in a global power grab by monied interests. Strangely, we fought WWII to stop the tyranny of fascism, while at the very same monied interests here invested in the Nazi's and laundered their money in the U.S., England and Switzerland. The bankers and CEOs are the threat to liberty, justice and the advancement of the human condition. Perhaps it is time for a new fight for the dignity of the human spirit.

Re:uber lords

[Intrepid imaginaut]

You can never stop this kind of thing permanently. The price of freedom, after all...

Re:uber lords

[Osgeld]

So far, too few US citizens seem to care

FTFY

Re:uber lords

[mdragan]

Maybe it's time for capitalism and the free market thinkers to acknowledge the fact that corporations have as much power to destroy the balance of the free market, as the governments. A corporation is a quasi monopoly.
Or we could start by saying that temporary monopolies like copyright and patents were never meant to enter the hands of powerful entities, such as corporations. The potential for abuse is too great. The copyright or patent should end as soon as the artist or inventor has been payed by selling his invention to a corporation. The corporations should pay for the right to publish the work or use the invention, not for a tool with which to kill competition.

Re:uber lords

[Anonymous Coward]

What a load of old rubbish.

Re:uber lords

[Hognoxious]

So far, too few US citizens seem to care

The vast majority of them are fine, hardworking & God-fearing folks.

They have nothing to fear from measures like the Patriot Act; it's only bad people - tairsts, comnusts and hermersexuls - that will have their freedom curtailed..

Re:uber lords

[icebraining]

They do. See e.g. Luigi Zingales and his books "Saving Capitalism from the Capitalists" and "A Capitalism for the People".

Re:uber lords

[Anonymous Coward]

You Americans thought you had freedom how cute :-)

Re:uber lords

[Anonymous Coward]

But hey the bible says Jesus hates homosekshuls and wants them killed or kicked out of Merca!

Wait it doesn't? Hold on I'll find it...........

Re:uber lords

[tqk]

Always a cogent argument, that. Well, for a five year old I mean.

Re:uber lords

[tqk]

You Americans thought you had freedom how cute :-)

They did. Theirs was better than anything that'd come before. Unfortunately, they forgot how to maintain it, or some slick talking salesman sold them some snake oil.

Welcome to the revolution. :-P

Re:uber lords

[tqk]

The vast majority of them are fine, hardworking & God-fearing consumers.

FTFY. Just like they (whoever they are) want us to be.

Re:uber lords

[radtea]

Maybe it's time for capitalism and the free market thinkers to acknowledge the fact that corporations have as much power to destroy the balance of the free market, as the governments

Since Adam Smith did this over 200 years ago I'd say it's a little weird that anyone who calls themself a "free market thinker" would find this in any way news.

Corporations do not exist in free markets. For corporations to exist requires an act of legislative interference with free markets in the form of a Companies Act, which is a pure exercise in market interference by the Nanny State.

No one who holds themselves a defender of free markets is or can be a defender of corporations, and anyone who says otherwise is either ignorant or lying.

So what...

[Anonymous Coward]

are we, the people, then to pay for the trail and incarceration of corporate enemies?

Re:So what...

[Alien Being]

You misspelled trial and incineration.

Re:So what...

[tqk]

You misspelled trial and incineration.

That's funny. :-)

BTW, I highly recommend Bruce Willis' "Surrogates" (hope that link works) which seems highly apropos.

Re:So what...

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the correct term is trial BY incineration.

exporting "undesirables" ?

[cats-paw]

send them to the US so the US can pay to imprison them. So you've gotten rid of a "troublemaker" and you don't have to pay to deal with them.

Re:exporting "undesirables" ?

[tqk]

So you've gotten rid of a "troublemaker" and you don't have to pay to deal with them.

Those so-called troublemakers are usually taxpayers too, as are their progeny. Way to shoot yourself in the foot!

I totally misread...

[LMahesa]

I totally misread "A Former NSW Chief Judge" as "A Former NSFW Chief Judge".
I need a break from the internet.

Re:I totally misread...

[Anonymous Coward]

I read it like that, too. I was just like, "Man, this article is a step kinkier than we usually get on slashdot".

Re:I totally misread...

[dbIII]

I totally misread "A Former NSW Chief Judge" as "A Former NSFW Chief Judge".

We had a few scandals about the private lives of some of them so it can be one and the same thing :) The judges in question were entirely professional at work so it should have been irrelevant, but the press likes a scandal.

Meanwhile, things are looking up in the Philippines due to talks between MILF and the government which could lead to the end of their conflict.

Re:I totally misread...

[tqk]

I totally misread "A Former NSW Chief Judge" as "A Former NSFW Chief Judge".

Meanwhile, things are looking up in the Philippines due to talks between MILF and the government which could lead to the end of their conflict.

What?!?

Re:I totally misread...

[dbIII]

It gave me a surprise too when I heard on the radio while driving "improving relationship between the Philippine government and MILF."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moro_Islamic_Liberation_Front
FARC it's weird when these internet terms have a second meaning.

Change

[anarkhos]

Someone I won't mention could change this policy overnight

Re:Change

[Anonymous Coward]

Darth Vader?

Fuck Americans

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck Americans

Re:Fuck Americans

[Anonymous Coward]

No, America fuck you. We've been the major protector of the free world for 100 years and we get little in return. Be glad that we are peaceful when we can be. The alternative is that we just nuke the whole lot of you foreign little cunts.

Re:Fuck Americans

[Anonymous Coward]

bwahahahahahhahaaa.......

You're a bunch of Johnny Come Latelies who only ever got to the top of the heap because the Europeans fought themselves to exhaustion, twice in 30 years.

You're drowning in drugs and crime and are founded on slavery and religious insanity.

You can't pay your bills and most of you can't even afford a trip to the dentist.

You'll just be a minor footnote in a history book somewhere "United States of America.....See: Slavery, Drugs, McDonalds, Disneyland. Decline and fall..."

Hope you enjoyed your 50 years in the sun... *snore*

Re:Fuck Americans

[tqk]

You'll just be a minor footnote in a history book somewhere "United States of America.....See: Slavery, Drugs, McDonalds, Disneyland. Decline and fall..."

They're not finished yet. Rome conquered a third (?) of the Earth's surface. The MafiAA is intent on getting it all, and they're winning.

Re:Fuck Americans

[Alien Being]

We're not to be compared to MafiAA, Disney, Slavery, McDonalds or drugs. What we are is the most freedom loving nation the world has ever seen. We have come from all corners of the Earth escaping bastards such as yourself and seeking a common goal. We are your ancestors. They all got the fuck out of your little shitholes because they were smart enough to know that there's a better way.

No, we are not finished yet. Some of you snot-nosed little douchebags are too fucking stupid to realize it, but if you don't support U.S. values then you are the evil bastards who deserve to be eradicated. You will bring it upon yourselves. It happened to the Nazis, the Commies, and it will happen to you, you worthless piece of shit. Wake the fuck up and get on the right side of the world, you stupendously ignorant cunt.

Re:Fuck Americans

[tqk]

They're not finished yet.

We have come from all corners of the Earth escaping bastards such as yourself and seeking a common goal.

I'm Canadian. You're an idiot. Just sayin'. Holy fsck, some of you Murricans are stupid.

Re:This is, ... bullying?

[AxeTheMax]

You know, the classic answer to 'why do bullies bully?' Because the victim allows it.

maybe

[Anonymous Coward]

cause we feed their shit for brains people, and fund their military?

I probably shouldn't respond to Timothy's trolling

[Anonymous Coward]

...but I'll bite.

You can have either three* economies, in today's world, and still have a country:
Bronze/aluminum age -- agrarian
Iron age -- manufacturing
Silicon age -- information tech and design

The highest standards of living are in IT economies. Ask yourself this: do you want to live in bronze age India? Of course not. You'd rather live in iron age Brazil, or, even better, siicon age Boston. Most world leaders understand this, and that is why they are cool with draconian copyright laws. And in fact, if you protect innovation abroad, you in theory protect innovation at home, as well, and create the possibility of a local market. Most 2nd world countries WANT to become like America. They WANT an innovative and productive economy -- and that is why they support strong IP laws -- to hopefully boost their own economy into a knowledge-based economy, and out of 2nd or 3rd world stagnation.

The sad thing is though, innovation doesn't just come from a good marketplace. It comes from an intelligent, inspired, hopeful, dreaming, confident and curious populace, with time and ways to experiment. Innovation is no longer happening in America because we are not confident anymore. We are dumbed down, crushed and we have no more dreams. College was our only formal gateway to a better life, but that has suffered the fate of most monopolies and destroyed the market by overgouging consumers. Increased corporatism and restrictive patent laws have hurt individual inventors and made college a requirement for any white collar job, due to the fact that only big companies with many lawyers on retainer can survive amidst these insane IP laws. Those few big companies are flooded with applicants, and only distinguish between candidates by education level (read, debt/wealth background). In addition to a dumbing down college tax** and a noncompetitive marketplace (which rewards suing your competitor instead of inventing/refining a product), we also have the dilemma that there are fewer and fewer hobbyists being creative with stuff. Increasingly, everything is locked down, and single use. Even our water bottles are stamped "do not reuse." Not to mention the TV instant gratification culture which discourages critical intellectual activity, like reading a book instead of buying things from commercials.

So, no, wannabe 1st world countries, please do not copy us. We are not a knowledge economy, we are a consumer economy. We no longer create much, anymore. Yes, protecting IP is a good idea. But like anything else, too much of a good thing can be a bad thing. We need sane copyright and patent laws, not an elimination of them all together.
(And we also need local manufacturing, and less corporate litigation -- and less big business domination, period.)

*I'm not including stone age hunter-gather societies, because a) they got their butts kicked by everyone else, and lost almost all their sovereignty, and b) no one really wants to go back to the stone age, and there isn't enough spare flora and fauna to support that move, anyway.

** College has basically become a tax which everyone who wants to get ahead pays. And frankly, it is so insanely bad, that it's aproaching indentured servitude. Many first world people are actually advocating returning to a bronze age civilization, because the american college-industrial complex is so crushingly destructive, restrictive, and empoverishing.

Doesn't matter anyway

[Anonymous Coward]

I already live in the land of the free. Shame they can extradite me from my own home, though. Sucks for those people who live abroad now they have to worry about the same laws as I do. We all live in the same world, isn't it about time we work together to change those bad USA laws?

Yes, that's ridiculous

[Anonymous Coward]

as the other way around it would be "an act of patriotism", "assertion of rights" or similar.

Straw an

[phayes]

The country where a crime was committed was long ago determined NOT to be the most important in where the criminal should be tried. No country on earth accepts that s sniper on a neighboring hill should be tried where the hill is & not where the victims were killed. This self serving, ignorant attempt to justify being tried where one chooses is bullshit.

Re:Straw an

[Spottywot]

You must be one hell of a shot if you can snipe someone in America from a hill in Australia. Seriously, if you believe that the US or any other country should have this kind of power you must be crazy.

Re:Straw an

[isorox]

You must be one hell of a shot if you can snipe someone in America from a hill in Australia. Seriously, if you believe that the US or any other country should have this kind of power you must be crazy.

Go to the border of Canada then. Shoot someone in another country. Where are you tried?

How about in the USA? Someone from California goes to Texas and shoots across the border and hits someone from maine who lives in Oklahoma, who is taken to hospital in Coralardo? Classic sideshow bob scenario.

Re:Straw an

[Spottywot]

You must be one hell of a shot if you can snipe someone in America from a hill in Australia. Seriously, if you believe that the US or any other country should have this kind of power you must be crazy.

Go to the border of Canada then. Shoot someone in another country. Where are you tried?

How about in the USA? Someone from California goes to Texas and shoots across the border and hits someone from maine who lives in Oklahoma, who is taken to hospital in Coralardo? Classic sideshow bob scenario.

But that's not really what we're talking about are we. The US seems quite keen to lock away citizens of other countries i.e Gary McKinnon without feeling the need to return the favour. Under the terms of the US/UK treaty the US have managed to make it *exceedingly* one sided (Thanks for that Tony).

This is all about wielding power over weaker countries, and nothing about justice

Re:Straw an

[phayes]

You'd have to be one hell of a twit to fail to realize that it is the principle I referred to & a specific example rendered difficult by peculiar circumstances. Seriously if you think that Australia thinks that a shot fired from an Indonesian vessel that kills an Australian on an Australian vessel would not be prosecuted in Australia, then you're living in a universe different from the rest of us.

Re:Straw an

[phayes]

No, this is just you displaying your ignorance of international law. The jurisprudence came about from countries that share land borders & was extended for example to events in international waters. Australia does not get to ignore this because you do not share a land border with anyone.

Re:Straw an

[Spottywot]

You are getting very exited about this, so let me get this straight: You think that an Australian citizen commiting a minor IP crime on Australian soil should be extradited to the US and tried and imprisoned there. You also think that the fact I believe an injustice has been done is because I am ignorant of international law.

No. I am well aware that this has been done within a legal framework. This is quite simply a one sided(US centric) injustice. 'Legal' does not equal justice.

It is however increasingly clear where *you* stand

Re:Straw an

[Anonymous Coward]

The country where a crime was committed was long ago determined NOT to be the most important in where the criminal should be tried. No country on earth accepts that s sniper on a neighboring hill should be tried where the hill is & not where the victims were killed. This self serving, ignorant attempt to justify being tried where one chooses is bullshit.

There are laws on both hills that criminalize sniping, so your analogy falls flat. Let's try a more relevant example.

If someone in Freedonia, a country that doesn't consider copyright infringement to be a criminal issue, elects to break US copyright laws, the US ought to have no right to assert its laws over Freedonians, as long as those Freedonians are smart enough to stay in Freedonia.

If you disagree, consider the following real-world example:

"The King of Thailand is a fink."

I've just broken Thai law from within the United States. If you're arguing that I can no longer visit Thailand, we're cool, but it sounds like you're seriously arguing that the Thai police have the right (not that it's likely they would, not that it's practical that they could, but that, by your legal principles, they should) send in a team of agents to physically haul me in from the United States. That's preposterous.

Re:Straw an

[phayes]

Me worked up about your ignorance? You overrate your importance.

This one-sided justice you speak of started with the USA hacking into McKinnon's computers thereby causing over $700000 damages. Yup sure looks one sided to me... except that Mckinnon was the perp & the USG the victim of what you want to label a minor crime.

You are voluntarily blind and ignorant, that much is clear.

Re:Straw an

[Spottywot]

Regardless of what damages (apart from embarrassment) he actually did to the Pentagons computers, $700,000 is a figure I've not seen any proof of, but thats beside the point. The US UK extradition treaty doesn't require any proof on the US side whatsoever, it does however require it when a US citizen is requested to be extradited to the UK. Hmmm... See what I mean?

My point is that he should be tried for his crime in the UK under UK law plain and simple. Why on earth should America expect every person on this planet to be subject to US law?

Hubris anyone?

Re:Straw an

[phayes]

You clearly wouldn't accept any level of proof the USG gives. The 700000 figure is itemized in the court documents but instead of examining them you ignorantly deny that they are justified. Your pattern of behavior is clear: you prefer ignorance to informed opinions.

As to the reason the available terms are so favorable to the US, IMO the only plausible reason is that some terms that are not public are present in the treaty that every UKG since it was negotiated deems a sufficient counterweight to the public portions. While I do not hold all of them in high esteem, I cannot accept that every successive UK government has been so incapable as to refuse to force a renegotiation of terms otherwise.

Your point, is clear, but it's ignorance/negation of accepted international law make it nonsensical. Why overturn centuries of precedent because a teen aged idiot caused immense damages & then refused to fave the consequences?

Re:Straw an

[Spottywot]

You clearly wouldn't accept any level of proof the USG gives.

Not quite sure how this is clear, actually I'd be very interested.

The 700000 figure is itemized in the court documents but instead of examining them you ignorantly deny that they are justified.

Don't think I did, I merely said I had seen no evidence, and that it was beside the poin.t

Your pattern of behavior is clear: you prefer ignorance to informed opinions.

Unfounded insults don't really add much to your argument.

As to the reason the available terms are so favorable to the US, IMO the only plausible reason is that some terms that are not public are present in the treaty that every UKG since it was negotiated deems a sufficient counterweight to the public portions.

Pure Conjecture based on absolutely no evidence whatsoever, more likely is that Tony Blair rolled over like a good dog and signed what he was told. The evidence for this and other similar 'roll over' manuveures by the UK government is plain to see.

While I do not hold all of them in high esteem, I cannot accept that every successive UK government has been so incapable as to refuse to force a renegotiation of terms otherwise.

I'm guessing you don't pay too much attention to UK politics then.

Your point, is clear, but it's ignorance/negation of accepted international law make it nonsensical. Why overturn centuries of precedent because a teen aged idiot caused immense damages & then refused to fave the consequences?

Nowhere did I claim that this was not set in motion according to international law. Blair signed the one-sided treaty and until it is broken we must abide by it. I'd love by the way to see some of the centuries of precedents for this stuff. Negating other countries sovereignty for the benefit of the US government and US corporations, for crimes that weren't committed on US soil is a relatively new thing, at least for countries you're not actually at war with.

Oh and while you're bandying the term ignorance around as if it strengthens your argument, Mckinnon was 36 in 2002 when this deadly hack was perpertrated, and he was and still is an Aspergers sufferer, not a 'teenage idiot'.

Re:Straw an

[phayes]

Not quite sure how this is clear, actually I'd be very interested.

No surprise given the level of ignorance you have displayed here.

Don't think I did, I merely said I had seen no evidence, and that it was beside the point

In the 10 years you had to in which you could look into the USG's publicly published documents (which supposedly interest you) you did nothing yet you continue to state incorrectly that Mckinnon committed a minor crime. You're a fool or a liar, which is it?

Unfounded insults don't really add much to your argument.

Calling someone when their duplicity has been exposed a liar is merely stating the truth. Calling you ignorant is also a statement of fact given what you have posted here

I'm guessing you don't pay too much attention to UK politics then.

You comment once again from a position of ignorance,

Nowhere did I claim that this was not set in motion according to international law.

By claiming that Mckinnon should be tried in the UK that is precisely what you did.

he was and still is an Aspergers sufferer, not a 'teenage idiot'.

Mckinnon's mother, as part of her campaign to whip up public opinion, claimed that Aspergers lowers his mental age to that of someone below the age of consent. It's also the only reason that justifies her being more present in his defense than he was.

Negating other countries sovereignty

Back to the beginning: International law has for centuries stated that when extradition treaties are present that prosecution shall take place in the country where the victims are

Re:Straw an

[Anonymous Coward]

Depends on whether it happened on Australian, Indonesian or international waters.

Re:Straw an

[Spottywot]

Back to the beginning: International law has for centuries stated that when extradition treaties are present that prosecution shall take place in the country where the victims are

Your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberries!

As I said, only when it suits the US it seems.

Re:Straw an

[nukenerd]

The 700000 figure is itemized in the court documents but instead of examining them you ignorantly deny that they are justified.

As far as I and the UK is concerned, the case has not come to court so this fantastic figure has never been challenged in court. And it is is not worth challenging in court because it is too ridiculous to waste time on it. USG maintain that $700,000 damage was caused but McKinnon maintains he did no damage, and just looked for UFO info. It sounds to me that the $700,000 was spent putting in security that should have been there in the first place and checking for (non-existent) damage. It is like a "secret" military establishment had no fences or guards, and one day a curious passer-by went up to the windows and looked in. Someone sees him and only then the establishment puts up fences, CCTV, floodlighting etc and it costs them $700,000, and then claim that the passer-by "caused" $700,000 worth of damage.

Your pattern of behavior is clear: you prefer ignorance to informed opinions. ... Your point, is clear, but it's ignorance/negation of accepted international law make it nonsensical. Why overturn centuries of precedent because a teen aged idiot caused immense damages & then refused to fave the consequences?

You are using the word "ignorant" an awful lot about your opponents in this discusssion, but then show your own ingnorance of this case. McKinnon is an idiot, but not a teenager. He is a man in his 40's.

I think we're at the peak of the empire.

[Anonymous Coward]

The USA is an empire with vassal states all over the world, but it's about to collapse just like the Roman empire, and for the same reason. An empire is expensive, and the will of the American people to maintain the empire is fading away.

Re:I think we're at the peak of the empire.

[maxwell demon]

The problem is that the next empire will likely be Chinese.

Re:I think we're at the peak of the empire.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not sure that's a bad thing. China just learned that the way to get ahead is to cut way the fuck back on how much government interferes in people's lives. They're on their way to being a free country, just as they USA is losing it.

Re:I think we're at the peak of the empire.

[rtfa-troll]

[China are] on their way to being a free country

Ah yes; with great actions like bringing in the Great Firewall of China. No doubt about it; just leaving the people to get on with their own business.

Re:I think we're at the peak of the empire.

[Osgeld]

dont worry, they dont make anything that lasts more than a year or two

Re:I think we're at the peak of the empire.

[cpghost]

Why would that be a problem? Instead of being extradited for a petty copyright infringement case, we would be extradited for criticizing the Chinese communist party. Personally, I couldn't care less: both empires would be equally repressive, if you dare to break their respective taboos.

What gets me is

[Chrisq]

If it is a Muzzie terrorist like Abu Hamsa it takes years. If it is a banker working in London who should be tried in the UK whooshh .... he's gone.

Re:What gets me is

[cpghost]

What's a Muzzie? Oh, you mean a hate preacher like that Abu Hamsa? Why not say so outright?

Re:What is the worth of other citizens...

[Chrisq]

..when they only play WoW and download american content? And really, in Sweden, it is all they do after school or work. The only people who have a healthy outdoors lifestyle are the young arab immigrants, who can't stay over in others rooms even for homework because the parents will think they are having sex...

According to the Swedish stereotype the Swedish parents would probably rather they were having sex than be playing Wow.

Re:JEWS... that's why

[maxwell demon]

Actually the Anonymous Cowards are responsible for it.

Re:JEWS... that's why

[jcr]

Fuck off, Adolph.

-jcr

Strewth, blue buggering ruin, etc.

[Hognoxious]

No, the main political groupings there are Inmates and Guards.

Re:Strewth, blue buggering ruin, etc.

[Anonymous Coward]

They're talking about Australia, not the US.

Please try and keep up.

Re:Strewth, blue buggering ruin, etc.

[Anonymous Coward]

If it were about the US, it would be private prison company stockholders [1], low wage COs, and inmates.

[1]: CXW and Geo are VERY hot stocks, with dividends the best of the industry.

Re:Strewth, blue buggering ruin, etc.

[Anonymous Coward]

No, the main political groupings there are Inmates and Guards.

Correction - Screws and Crims

Planet USA

[Anonymous Coward]

... Australia recently 'streamlined' its laws ...

Slashdot has reported several extraditions to the USA from the UK where, essentially, US law has jurisdiction in the England.

This follows decades of preferential treatment for US interests: noticebly no-tax laws and the AUS-USA FTA. It is little suprise one Australian leader was called an 'arse-licker' for getting chummy with president GW Bush.

Re:What is the worth of other citizens...

[Anonymous Coward]

I think swedish parents want their kids to have WoW and sweaty sex in equal parts to maintain a proper life balance. Give them credit here, they love their kids like everyone else.

FTC Offers $50,000 For Best Way To Stop Robocalls

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey US government why not use your lonnnng reach to go after those phone scum instead of someone who shared a few songs. Problem solved, where is my money?

It's not Americans, it's the teleprompts

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not Americans to blame. Somebody passed a 'teleprompts are people' law and as a result the teleprompt vote is the most important demographic politicians seek to win in any election.

http://youtu.be/pKaXqoC4DjE?t=3m3s

They want to have it both ways...

[Anonymous Coward]

Copyright infringement is being prosecuted in the country where the server is... Extradition
Alleged spying is prosecuted where the hacked (cracked) machine/network was (Gary McKinnon, etc.)... Extradition
University must be accredited in a state (Free Online Education Unwelcome In Minnesota)... Being on an out-of-state server does not matter
Parallel Imports not allowed (must buy songs for .99 Euro and not overseas for .99 $)... Not allowed to use a global market

Somehow everything is turned in a way that does not benefit the common people. We should finally once and for all declare a world-wide decree that either you are on foreign soil when you use a specific server or that you are on home turf and the location of the keyboard counts. Then it would be clear what laws apply. The current situation is a complete mess.

Re:They want to have it both ways...

[cpghost]

Somehow everything is turned in a way that does not benefit the common people.

That's because common people don't have a lobby, and don't have deep pockets to buy laws in their favor. This is not surprising: it is one of those shortcomings of the representative system. If people voted directly for their laws (like in Switzerland), it would be harder for the corps to get away with lobbying: they may be able to buy off representatives, but to change peoples' opinion, they need HUGE PR campaigns, and those are many orders of magnitude more expensive than the corruption ^W campaign donations.

Re:JEWS... that's why

[jcr]

>Well argued.

I'm not arguing with you, I'm telling you to fuck off, you chickenshit anonymous nazi shithead.

-jcr

Re:JEWS... that's why

[Anonymous Coward]

>You have no idea what the German people went through

The German people suffered tremendously in the war that Hitler started because of people like you going along with it.

I wonder

[Gonoff]

Are all the cases that people are kidnapped in this way for actually crimes at all outside the Corporate States of America?

It is simple

[Anonymous Coward]

As Ameriscam elections have shown bat shit crazy can be bought.

I remember when our highways were

[Anonymous Coward]

Considered expensive because of them we roared right past every nation on earth.
When we look back at how China beat us like a step child on Sunday morning, were going to look back at their bargain extensive high speed rail.
Not only dont we learn from our mistakes we dont even learn from our successes.

Pew pew pew 'merica...

[Anonymous Coward]

U$A is the real enemy...

"Outside the USA"

[gnasher719]

Just saying: According to German law (for example), a crime happens in the place where it has an effect, not in the place where someone took an illegal action. These are often the same places. But for example, when sending a letter bomb the crime takes place where the bomb explodes, not where it was built or sent from. Hacking from a flat in London into US military computers takes place in the USA. Distributing copyrighted materials in the USA from a server somewhere else takes place in the USA.

Re:"Outside the USA"

[Anonymous Coward]

Also according to German law, extradition of German citizens to foreign powers is unlawful. Not everyone is a US lap dog these days.

Re:"Outside the USA"

[rtfa-troll]

This is a principle which probably needs to be revisited. There are lots of things that go wrong with that. For example, if I start sending anti-Islamic propaganda to computers in Saudia-Arabia, is it reasonable to treat it as a crime? What if I then go to Malaysia or somewhere else that has an extradition treaty with the Saudis?

Another example; if someone orders or is involved in child abuse in another country, that should be, and often is, a crime they can be punished for in their home country even if there is no extradition treaty. Otherwise people go looking for countries where they can get away with things.

There are lots of things going on here. Why should a victim have to travel far away to get justice? Why should a person have to answer for made up crimes in a far away country with high levels of corruption? How can a foreigner expect reasonable justice from a system he doesn't understand? Look at how the Americans cried and cried about a pretty girl being convicted in Italy and then it turned out she was probably innocent. Do you think you would get the same support in America?

There are a bunch of things which need to be guaranteed before this can work:

• convictions should only be for crimes which are crimes in both places; (N.B. not extraditions)
• proper legal defence, free or very cheap, should be guaranteed (and I don't mean US public defenders)
• full compensation for time and costs for those found innocent
• proper access to a proper and fair trial
• access to a jury trial for people who have the right in either country
• a local review about whether the trial could be more fairly handled in the defendant's home country.

There are probably many more I haven't thought of. Only when that happens should international extraditions be even considered.

Re:I probably shouldn't respond to Timothy's troll

[west]

I'm sorry, but I have to call into question your claim that America isn't innovative any more.

While the rest of the world is *gradually* catching up, which dilutes the appearance of American innovation, there's still a huge amount of research done in America. More to the point, if you start looking deeply into almost any industry, you'll find that it's massively changed over the last 10-20 years, and mostly a result of American innovations.

Farming, manufacturing, chemistry, medical advances, business processes, transportation, finance, electronics (again phones, tablets, internet, etc.) have all made huge recent strides in innovation thanks to American advances. The only real change is that instead of having a virtual monopoly on such advances, American advances are now beginning to share the stage with other countries.

Don't confuse other countries advances with American decline. We should be celebrating, not sorrowing.

Remember those who warned Global Government is..

[couchslug]

..the destruction of your sovereignty, and that means destruction of your rights?

Stop Wasting It On Teenage "Pirates"

[Anonymous Coward]

And start extraditing spammers and do us all some actual goddamned good for a change.

Team America World Police

[Cito]

It's finally become 100% true, the Southpark creators were prophets haha.

So embarrassed to be an American in this day and age, I have absolutely zero pride in my country. If I had the money I'd definitely leave. But with this news it doesn't matter if I left or not 'Team America World Police' is the global long arm of the law.

I hope China gets tired and fed up with us not paying our debts and gives this country a major black eye, perhaps an air strike over D.C.

something definitely needs to happen to deflate this terroristic government's ego.

Reciprocity

[Anonymous Coward]

It is also now easier for Australia to extradite "USpersons". This is a two way street.

Re:I probably shouldn't respond to Timothy's troll

[tqk]

Bronze/aluminum age -- agrarian

Aluminum says:

The metal was first produced in 1825 in an impure form by Danish physicist and chemist Hans Christian Ørsted.

which I believe is long after the Bronze Age. Yeah, even the Romans used Alum as a powder, but not as a metal.

Just a quibble.

Re:I probably shouldn't respond to Timothy's troll

[tqk]

The only real change is that instead of having a virtual monopoly on such advances, American advances are now beginning to share the stage with other countries.

Ha. Funny. Well, that, and everything's patented to death and your patent lawyers are enabled (read: running amok), not to mention "Imaginary Property", and your tort law system is seriously fscked, and you're exporting criminal liability for civil offences to $ALLTHEWORLD and $PRESUMINGTOEXTRADITEANYOFFENDERINANYPARTOFTHEWORLDBACKTOFACECRIMESINTHEUSA, & etc.

Other than that, everything's peachy. Oh, except you've outsourced/offshored damned near everything, and your military's budget dwarfs pretty much everything else you do except (?) Social Security.

But who's counting?

Loss of Rights For US Citizens

[Anonymous Coward]

Roads usually work both ways. If other nations make it easier to extradite their citizens to the US then you can bet your last penny that the US has made concessions concerning extraditing US citizens for supposed crimes in foreign nations. And as we have all seen in the mid-east and some other places there are strange laws that conflict with the American way of life. For example if I remark that Allah sucks you can bet there are nations that would want me put to death.

Re:I probably shouldn't respond to Timothy's troll

[west]

I'd argue that while software patents are a net loss, the rest of the patent system has been quite successful for the US, doing more or less what it's intended to do. Certainly, it's worked a lot better at fostering innovation than in countries with very weak patent enforcement mechanisms like China.

I should point out that innovation is *not* universally a good thing - not all innovations work in the end. For example, much of the financial crisis was caused by innovation in finance that failed in the long term. (Although it should be noted that America dominates finance because of that innovation.)

As for copyright issues, that's not really a matter of innovation and thus not particularly relevant here. It's little wonder that America, being dominant in entertainment production is the keenest to protect its product. You'll notice that in Europe, each region is protecting their particular culinary specialties, etc. It is to be expected that every nation protects what they can (and America has the ability to push that protection elsewhere (other countries attempt to do this as well, but with notably less success)).

As for out-sourcing, this is a global phenomena. It's unsurprising that it causes a lot of dislocation and misery (and incidentally raises a billion Chinese out of poverty, but never mind them), as almost all major economic re-alignments do. However, it should be noted that in the absence of out-sourcing, manufacturing was likely to take a huge hit (albeit not as big as did occur) as mechanization took hold and required fewer people. Companies that didn't use lots of robots, etc. were already being forced to slash wages or increase prices. Either way, just as farm mechanization wiped out millions upon millions of jobs, the same thing was and is happening to manufacturing. And, yes, it's a real challenge to figure out how people who are not information workers by inclination are going to earn a middle-class living. But this is not new - heck, I wrote a high school paper on exactly this subject in the 70's.

Since I am not an American, nor live in America, I'm actually rather grateful for America's military budget. Let's just say I'm familiar with the concept of Finlandization, and the US is one of the only examples I can think of small countries adjacent to a powerful country where Finlandization didn't occur on any scale worthy of the term. (Call me cynical, but the natural state of political affairs is for the larger, more powerful countries to absolutely dictate policy to the smaller ones. The US pushes, not dictates, policy, and often doesn't get its way. I certainly didn't see the USSR have the same problems with countries in its sphere of influence, and I fully expect that once China dominates its region will enforce rather more cooperation. The USA's willingness to let weak countries like my own dictate their own affairs and allow an independent foreign policy is a historical aberration, and one I am rather grateful for.