Navy Seals Disciplined For Revealing Secrets As Consultants On Video Game

Kerching! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 01:11 · Score: 0

Wonder how much a Team Six members gets bet EA pays more!

puh...lease by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 01:12 · Score: 0, Troll

Obviously just a PR stunt for promoting the game. Also serves USA PR interests carrying on myth of that whole bin laden complex raid and mysterious sea burial malarkey!

Re:puh...lease by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 01:30 · Score: 4, Interesting

Obviously just a PR stunt for promoting the game. Also serves USA PR interests carrying on myth of that whole bin laden complex raid and mysterious sea burial malarkey!
the sheeple are so dumb they believe anything with no evidence if it is official enough.

you could say something about apple and somebody here will say "citation needed" and wont believe you without some kind of proof. the greatest villian we've been presented with so far in the 21st century dies and there is no evidence and everybody believes it. i tell you it is a crazy world.
Re:puh...lease by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 02:10 · Score: 0

I beleive that as well, PR for military recruiting and for EA. Get young men of the current generation interested in games to think about the military. Almost all of them are not SEAL material but it gets them in the door thinking about the military and talking to a recruiter.
Either that or it was a potential recruiting idea by one part of the military that was a great PR stunt and another part of the military thought was a terrible idea. I doubt the individual SEAL team members decided to do this on their own without input from advisors and higher ups. I got out of the military 12 years ago, maybe the culture has changed more than I think.
Re:puh...lease by Type44Q · 2012-11-09 02:28 · Score: 1, Troll

the sheeple are so dumb they believe anything with no evidence if it is official enough.
Instead of modding this down (i.e. playing a cowardly game of "shoot the messenger"), would anyone actually care to point out why this statement is invalid? While undoubtedly jaded and cynical, it illustrates the entire reason that governments go to so much effort to engage in domestic psyops (if doesn't, then presumably they're wasting a lot of money!).
Re:puh...lease by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 02:50 · Score: 0

Most of the people that read this site aren't as smart as they try to make you believe. There is a higher incident of people on this site that have a complex making them feel like they need to appear smart.
So the end result is someone writing [citation needed] at every turn and patting themselves on the back. The same person will not question an official story, because they're just as easily manipulated by the mass media as everyone else. That is, they're not too bright. They're actually really shallow and immature. "Citation needed" is about the extent of their mental depth.
So yes, you're going to get modded -1 for anything that goes against an official US government story just as sure as a group of diehard conservative Christians are going to parrot about that the US President is not natural-born and is a member of the secret Muslim Brotherhood.
Re:puh...lease by Americano · 2012-11-09 03:33 · Score: 2

So the end result is someone writing [citation needed] at every turn and patting themselves on the back.
I'm not sure why you'd think somebody asking you to explain your reasoning and provide a source to support your statements of fact is unreasonable. Well, unless your points are inherently irrational, and have no factual sources to support them, I guess.

Remember only Generals can Consult. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 01:14 · Score: 2, Interesting

It is not about secrets.

Good! by Tim12s · 2012-11-09 01:15 · Score: 4, Insightful

How on earth can the military staff haemorage their IP for the sake of an ef'fing book deal. There is too much public information on public deals that put military operations and lives at risk. The whole point of military superiority is based on an advantage of forces as a result of numbers, skill, training, tactics, operations, etc. I know that, as a geek, I love reading aircraft, lazer, and weapons development trials and developments but c'mon. All the US people are doing is destroying its own capability.

Now I understand how freedom of information protects against poor weapons systems, faulty weapons systems, bad quality, abuse of authority, etc. I don't have all the answers but what I do know is stupid - leaking you current tactics manuals and giving away all of your secrets. Might as well open-source the military.

FFS

Re:Good! by bluefoxlucid · 2012-11-09 01:20 · Score: 3, Insightful

Look, I'm not a call-of-duty guy or whatever, medal of honor, apparently medal of buttsex on submarines this time around, whatever. But you have to admit that this sort of thing is good, solid cultural advancement. I mean, warfare isn't cultural advancement; access to history is, knowledge in all its forms is. Maybe they slipped some state secrets--I suspect there were implications, less revelation of direct classified data, stuff that hints too close to home. That's bad. But this whole "We should be silent and proud!' thing is stupid. Being an over-egotistical gaudy asshole is one thing, but this... this is a contribution to society. It has value.

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Re:Good! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 01:23 · Score: 0

How on earth can the military staff haemorage their IP for the sake of an ef'fing book deal. There is too much public information on public deals that put military operations and lives at risk. The whole point of military superiority is based on an advantage of forces as a result of numbers, skill, training, tactics, operations, etc. I know that, as a geek, I love reading aircraft, lazer, and weapons development trials and developments but c'mon. All the US people are doing is destroying its own capability.
Now I understand how freedom of information protects against poor weapons systems, faulty weapons systems, bad quality, abuse of authority, etc. I don't have all the answers but what I do know is stupid - leaking you current tactics manuals and giving away all of your secrets. Might as well open-source the military.
FFS
If you want to know the answer to your repeated question of "why" here, pick up the average servicemembers pay stub and take a good hard look at it.
If the military was serious about their statement of accountability, then maybe they would get off their own fucking wallets for once and pay that servicemember putting his or her LIFE on the line (something you or I hardly do while going to "work" every day) a decent living wage.
Maybe then, that Silent-but-broke Warrior would not be enticed by the very lucrative gaming industry, succumbing to attractive "consulting" fees.
Re:Good! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 01:25 · Score: 0

Might as well open-source the military.
In that case, make sure to GPL it, so that everyone who includes bits taken from your tactics in his own has to open up all of his own tactics as well. ;-)
Re:Good! by WillAdams · 2012-11-09 01:27 · Score: 1

Military pay is _much_ better than it used to be. Retirement is still amazingly good (until the bean counters decide it should become some sort of 401K).
It's a privilege to serve and one should be more concerned about things other than money --- plenty of time for that later (you've more than half your life ahead of you if you retire at age 38).

--
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
Re:Good! by Tim12s · 2012-11-09 01:34 · Score: 1

Fully agree. I like the approach of classifying certain information and releasing it 10 to 30 years later. From a history perspective this has revealed a ton of insight into Cold War mentalities on both the US and the Russian side. I would argue that the whole middle east is still an active/sensitive war zone even though there are fewer active wars and so most of this should be 10-15 years before it gets released.
Love the saying 'If you don't understand history, you are doomed to repeat it'.
We are stuck in a world were we are surrounded by soo many fantastic toys (Ferraris, Yachts, etc) with such a massive divide between someone who wants to afford a good house for their kids that the desire for fair pay is both acceptable and also discomforting. A whole other topic that should be delved into in this thread.
I understand their rationale for the book deal. Every way we look at it its always messy.
Re:Good! by RandomFactor · 2012-11-09 01:34 · Score: 2

While I agree in principle, I'm having difficulty with 7-8 elite military coming to the uniform conclusion that what they were doing was acceptable.
If they broke rules/regs then they get what they deserve. If it wasn't reasonably clear and defined however, then trashing their careers is a harsh way to clarify something for others. (And I know the military is harsh for a reason.)

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--- Mercutio was right.
Re:Good! by Xest · 2012-11-09 01:37 · Score: 4, Insightful

Does it really matter? Half the stuff that seems to come out as tactics eventually is just plain old common sense.
Most of the militaries secrets are in intel and technology, and it doesn't seem that they've really leaked anything much there as the issuse seems to be about tactics.
Having played the game, I don't think that matters anyway as the AI usually just runs in like a headless chicken and takes a thousand bullets because it's invulnerable. There was one mission based in the Philippines that said it was based on actual events, but again I don't know what of value could really have been given away. That US special forces may have been involved in something in the Philippines once? No shit. That's groundbreaking information.
I recall when the "tactics" for the SAS raid on the Iranian embassy were eventually released and everyone made a big fuss, the tactic in question was sticking a flashlight on the gun, firing from the hip and using the centre of the torch as your aiming point whilst doing so. Hardly something top secret that no one else was ever going to think of.
As I say it's our intel, our training, our combat experience, and our technology that makes special forces what they are. That's something you either can replicate or you can't, no amount of computer games or books are going to make up for it.
Honestly, I think the punishments are more about maintaining military style discipline than because they released anything of any value yet one of the things that makes special forces special is because they recruit people smart enough to think for themselves and who don't need the baby style treatment of run of the mill grunts to ensure they do what needs to be done.
Re:Good! by IndustrialComplex · 2012-11-09 01:54 · Score: 1

It's a racket.

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Re:Good! by marcuskincad · 2012-11-09 02:16 · Score: 5, Informative

Military pay is _much_ better than it used to be. Retirement is still amazingly good (until the bean counters decide it should become some sort of 401K).
What drugs are you taking? I was discharged (honorably, mind you) recently and I was getting paid shit. Let me preemptively negate the mitigating arguements to justify the green weenie argument of the pay issue: ~ Free housing: I lived in on-base housing that were either condemned and then re-fitted to shove extra soldiers in, or barracks that when reviewed, the base was allocated several million dollars to build new barracks.There's a reason some of us preferred the field. ~ Free healthcare: Performed by people who are fresh out of school and aren't experienced enough to be jaded. Or performed by people who have the mentality that once they put in their eight hours, their day was over. Their day started with PT, one of the few things that movies get right by showing it before dawn. So, yes, they're out of the office by 2 in the afternoon. Oh yeah, unless there is seriously something out of the norm with you, here's some Advil. Walk it off. Knew a guy that seriously injured his spine. Was back at work about a month later. Almost forgot, he deployed 4 or 5 months later. ~ Free food: Bought at a cost ration of greatest weight per dollar, which translated into cheapest food medically allowed. Joke I heard was: Grade E Beef-substitute, suitable for Americans worst and finest, served to our military and death-row inmates. With the way the Army operates, I was lucky to get two meals a day from cooks. Breakfast usually consisted of coffee and cigarettes, a bagel if I was lucky. Lunch and dinner was at the dining facilities where everything was rationed out using grade school sized portions. I ate the best when I was in the field or on vacation. I knew guys that were in that had a wife and children that qualified for food stamps. ~ Free training, vocational/technical style: They teach the bare minimum and expect the units the service member to go to teach the rest. So yeah, it's awesome if you go into the combat arms jobs because they don't want to write any "Dear Mr. & Mrs. Snuffy" letters. Last I check, the only people hiring these guys are the mafia and possibly law enforcement. The vo-tech jobs are slightly different. They promote and train the people who kiss ass, suck dick, stroke the shaft, gurgle the gravy and ask for seconds. (Looking back at my previous point, at least they were getting additional protein.) Everyone else got ignored unless the spotlight was on the person in charge.

It's a privilege to serve and one should be more concerned about things other than money --- plenty of time for that later (you've more than half your life ahead of you if you retire at age 38).
It's a privilege? The first two ideas which came to mind for that statement are either: A) you're former military who got so high up that you assume everyone has catered food, weekly manicures after golf, and heard that soldiers these days don't know how to dig a trench; or B) you're a civilian and thought Stripes was an actual account of all things military. Let me guess, you'll let us all have tea and crumpets for a mid afternoon snack. And if we retire by age 38, huh? How about if we make to age 38? That's assuming we all enter at age 18. (We don't. One is allowed in the military well into their 30's. Knew those guys to.) And on the topic of retiring, how about the guys who get medically retired because the Advil and water didn't heal running over an bomb? Yeah, it's a real privilege to be a poor, ahem, well payed member of the military. Please keep paying your taxes so elected officials can decide where to send us minions.
Re:Good! by dywolf · 2012-11-09 02:20 · Score: 5, Insightful

it may seem like common sense, but that's after years of work creating it, during which some men probably died before it was figured out. Hell we make revisions to tactics after nearly every big engagement. It's called an After Action Report, and everything, every little stinking thing, is written about and analyzed.
And while it may seem common sense to us, it frequently isnt to many combatants around the world. the majority of the taliban and iraqi insurgents have no training whatsoever, and those that do have very little discipline. many many of them emply spray and pray tactics, full of bravado and give em hell, but little thought, little planning, no tactical sensibilities, etc.

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The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
Re:Good! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 02:39 · Score: 0

I recall when the "tactics" for the SAS raid on the Iranian embassy were eventually released and everyone made a big fuss, the tactic in question was sticking a flashlight on the gun, firing from the hip and using the centre of the torch as your aiming point whilst doing so. Hardly something top secret that no one else was ever going to think of.
Possibly not something that no one else was ever going to think of, but it's amazing how, even now, after 50,000 years of thinking, learning, and passing the best techniques down from one generation to the next, new and simple solutions are still being discovered and patented. The best of these leave you saying, "Duh, why didn't anyone think of that before?" Like taping a flashlight to your gun when you go shooting in the dark. It's not that these things are difficult to come up with when asked a specific question - it's that no one ever thinks to ask the specific question. The creativity lies in the question, not in the solution.
This is also why military strategy/tactics are continuously developing: the first time you beat the enemy with a flashlight taped to your gun, they're going to come right back at you with a laser taped to theirs.
Re:Good! by David_Hart · 2012-11-09 02:41 · Score: 2

The reason why many insurgents use the spray and pray tactics is because they do not have the equipment, training, and skills to act strategically. The seals are picked for their abilities and train in tight units for years. It has nothing to do with understanding techniques or tactics. For example, I may know how to play football and I many know the strategy, but there is no way that me and my buddies could beat a professional NFL team (or a college team, for that matter). It's the training and skills that makes the difference.
Re:Good! by Clsid · 2012-11-09 02:58 · Score: 1

I think a lot of the US military might has to do with two very basic facts and that's hardly related to military secrets or so called cutting-edge stuff. First of all, the US still has the largest economy in the world by far, and spends 25% of the Federal Budget in the military. With so much money poured into the industry, it is only expected that you would have all sorts of military gadgets, aircraft and vehicles. Pretty much like the Soviets did and ended up destroying their economy in the process.
Second, and this is highly related to the first one. The U.S. has always enjoyed air supremacy after World War 2 and that is a fundamental part of the overall war strategy. Vietnam was only "lost" because of political reasons. The rules of engagement didn't allow the U.S. to invade and take control of North Vietnam out of fears of creating a larger conflict with China.
That being said, all militaries are secretive. I think the US is way more open than a lot of other countries so it is easy for military personnel to forget they are still bound by these ages-old traditions.
Re:Good! by mcgrew · 2012-11-09 03:10 · Score: 2

If they broke rules/regs then they get what they deserve.
from the article I saw earlier this morning, they're getting written reprimands and half their pay docked for two months. Not too harsh for what they did, their careers should be ok.

--
Free Martian Whores!
Re:Good! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 03:11 · Score: 0

Just curious, did you make corporal before you got out?
Re:Good! by Xest · 2012-11-09 03:13 · Score: 1

"it may seem like common sense, but that's after years of work creating it, during which some men probably died before it was figured out."
Actually, as the SAS guys involved themselves told it, they came up with the idea only hours before they stormed the place.
"And while it may seem common sense to us, it frequently isnt to many combatants around the world. the majority of the taliban and iraqi insurgents have no training whatsoever, and those that do have very little discipline. many many of them emply spray and pray tactics, full of bravado and give em hell, but little thought, little planning, no tactical sensibilities, etc."
This isn't really about common sense. Common sense in the Taliban's case would be recognising that they're not very good at going head to head with special forces and simply waiting for them to fly off and then popping out of cover to blow their Chinook out the sky with an RPG, or simply laying down IEDs at a choke point you know they have to pass through. That is common sense - it doesn't take a genius to figure out you've got more chance that way.
As you say yourself though, much of the reason they can't go head to head is because they don't have the training and discipline and some don't even have common sense - running in because they believe Allah will magically protect them only to get immediately gunned down. The point is though that no amount of playing Medal of Honour or reading books is going to magically instill that into them, they just come from a background where they have little or no education and what the Seals do or don't do isn't going to change that fact.
Re:Good! by TheGratefulNet · 2012-11-09 03:14 · Score: 1

I recall when the "tactics" for the SAS raid on the Iranian embassy
they're up to using SAS drives, now, in iran? its about time they finally upgraded those old IDE's.

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"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
Re:Good! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 03:22 · Score: 3, Insightful

a bit vitriolic, but I agree with most of what you are saying. I was discharged in 2001 for a spine injury at 24-it kind of fucked up my plans forward. Im in IT now, but I still have constant daily reminders of my service to Uncle-good and bad, mind you, but when it hurts to pick up my 4 yr old daughter and play with her, I get a little jaded.
Re:Good! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 03:22 · Score: 0

Grade E Beef-substitute, suitable for Americans worst and finest, served to our military and death-row inmates.
My favorite example of this was doing a stores load (Navy) about 10 years ago and seeing a box of steaks stamped "NOT FIT FOR PENITENTIARY USE" with a date of 1972.
Yeah, that's right, 30 year old steaks that weren't even fit to give to prisoners at the time they were boxed up.
That one "accidentally" went overboard.
Re:Good! by X0563511 · 2012-11-09 03:28 · Score: 4, Insightful

Funny to think how much money we throw at defense and almost none of it gets spent on you guys. That's the real travesty there.

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For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
Re:Good! by X0563511 · 2012-11-09 03:31 · Score: 1

I recall when the "tactics" for the SAS raid on the Iranian embassy were eventually released and everyone made a big fuss, the tactic in question was sticking a flashlight on the gun, firing from the hip and using the centre of the torch as your aiming point whilst doing so. Hardly something top secret that no one else was ever going to think of.
No kidding. I do that exact thing to bore-sight when I don't have a laser or something else I can use instead. I didn't need anyone to help me figure that part out...

--
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
Re:Good! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 03:36 · Score: 0

It's the Seal of Approval, and the fact that these guys were 'disciplined' over adding some truthiness to a war glorifying videot game only serves to lend it credibility.
I assume that the military office of propaganda is quite happy with the end result. If only they'd had the foresight to leak information like this into Call of Duty...
Oh, wait...
Re:Good! by Sloppy · 2012-11-09 03:47 · Score: 1

The thing is about common sense is that it's something you gain from experience. (How many things seem like common sense to you now, and yet you didn't know those things n years ago?)
Experience is an asset and communication is commodization of that asset. When we're working together building a better world and trying to get happier, that's fucking awesome, and all hail the information revolution.
When you're in zero-sum with an adversary, you want them to be denied that asset. You want one of their earliest experiences to be death. Let 'em learn from that, and make their surviving allies perform seances to learn from it. Except those enemies will accidentally contact your demonic allies who you've contracted to perform seance interceptions and either feed false information to the enemy, or feed upon their souls.
Muahahah! If only they had the experience to detect when this is happening, and had a protective pentagram drawn on the floor as a precaution. It's all common sense! But they don't have it, because the last enemy mystic medium died screaming at the hands of my incubus and never got a chance to warn anyone.

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As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Re:Good! by DerekLyons · 2012-11-09 03:49 · Score: 1

As I say it's our intel, our training, our combat experience, and our technology that makes special forces what they are. That's something you either can replicate or you can't, no amount of computer games or books are going to make up for it.
You can say that all you want... but you'd be wrong. You say that tactics "seem like plain common sense", but you have the advantage of 20/20 hindsight (but don't seem to realize that).

A tactic doesn't need to be something nobody else could think up - it just needs to be something that takes advantage of your technology, in ingrained in you through training, is based on experience. etc... it hangs together as an integrated structure. And thus what most people lacking experience and knowledge don't realize is that knowledge of an enemies tactics not only allows you to deduce the rest of the structure, it lets you figure out countermeasures.

(Why yes, I do have the relevant experience and knowledge... courtesy of a decade in Uncle Sam's Canoe Club.)
Re:Good! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 03:50 · Score: 0

You nailed it, they spend billions on failed weapons systems, but can't even provide good facilities for the troops.
Re:Good! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 03:53 · Score: 0

Like taping a flashlight to your gun when you go shooting in the dark.
What's new about that? Taping flashlights to things is both obvious and something that people routinely do, in situations where it is actually useful.
You don't see that in a lot of wars, because most wars since the invention of firearms haven't been fought at ranges where flashlights would do anything but spoil your night vision and make your exact position obvious. Flashlights with firearms only make sense indoors.
Re:Good! by marcuskincad · 2012-11-09 03:53 · Score: 1

Being vitriolic and jaded comes with the job. I almost consider them benefits. But hey, thanks for your service.
Re:Good! by marcuskincad · 2012-11-09 03:57 · Score: 1

Budgeting is done Hollywood-style. Creative writing is done to justify the bullshit which everyone can enjoy. But the people at the top enjoy it the most because they have everyone running around doing bullshit invented by said people.
Re:Good! by Xest · 2012-11-09 04:03 · Score: 2

No, see this guy's post for example:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3240925&cid=41932109
It sounds like he doesn't have that military training in the SAS, that he hadn't heard of those tactics, that he hadn't figured it out on hindsight.
He'd figured out because it's obvious - because it's common sense.
The whole point is that if it's common sense then it's not something you'd need to learn through hindsight, it's something that is the most sensible rational option given what you have at your disposal.
I agree there are plenty of people out there who lack common sense, and have to be taught common sense things, some I've encountered seem entirely of even ever being able to grasp common sense ideas, but the point is that they are the sorts of things that people are going to figure out (and probably already have) regardless.
As I pointed out elsewhere, common sense is the Taliban recognising it can't go toe to toe with special forces so instead resorting to tactics like IEDs. Common sense is that if there are known to be IEDs on the roads, then don't travel via the fucking roads.
Sure there are some tactics that are quite clever and do fall outside the realm of common sense, but I see no evidence of these being given away in games like Medal of Honor.
Re:Good! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 04:05 · Score: 0

The uniforms do not have suited lobbyists, the contractors do...
Re:Good! by SilentStaid · 2012-11-09 04:15 · Score: 4, Interesting

You disgust me and the fact that you got modded +5 irritates me to the point of irrationality. People, listen - these stories that guys like this regurgitate are generally from washed out medical rolls who couldn't snuff it the first 5 minutes into Basic. There's a reason that his post reads like the transcript from a homeless man in the subway.

Please, please, please don't allow him to disparage the military that I love and accept as fact. I was discharged too, after getting wounded
TL;DR : This dude is a crybaby. Army life isn't that bad. News at 11.
Re:Good! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 04:20 · Score: 0

I hate to reply to myself, but rather than waste anyone time with anecdotal evidence that you're either going to read and disregard or skim over, if you're really interested in my story send me a PM and I'll tell you what it's *actually* like.
Re:Good! by DerekLyons · 2012-11-09 04:41 · Score: 1

Sure there are some tactics that are quite clever and do fall outside the realm of common sense, but I see no evidence of these being given away in games like Medal of Honor.
Some of the cleverest tactics are the most subtle... Just because you don't see them, doesn't mean they aren't there.
But I rather suspect you don't see them because you're a clueless git.
Re:Good! by TheLink · 2012-11-09 04:47 · Score: 1

You really sure "flashlight on gun" was considered a secret tactic?
See: http://ducttape.glenmurphy.com/
More reasons to not join the military.
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Re:Good! by bluefoxlucid · 2012-11-09 04:49 · Score: 2

I just bought a 1200sqft house with basement and if I weren't eternally single (never dated) I'd raise kids in that house. It's small but it's livable.

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Re:Good! by 19thNervousBreakdown · 2012-11-09 05:26 · Score: 1

You always wonder if posts like these come from real former-military, or just some guy who wants to rant.

kiss ass, suck dick, stroke the shaft, gurgle the gravy and ask for seconds.
Yep, he's the real deal. There's just this certain rhythm to military dick jokes, and they'll look you hard in the eye and tell you to perform the most shockingly homosexual acts, on them, that you could imagine of in an absolutely shameless way that Perez Hilton couldn't match on his best day.
... not that there's anything wrong with that.

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Re:Good! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 06:06 · Score: 0

Just a point of fact, once something is explained to you and you understand it, in hindsight, it almost always looks like 'common sense'. That is the problem. When someone does something that no one else does, for the first time, and then a group adopts that tactic because it works. No matter HOW STUPID that tactic might seem, if no one else is doing it, then no one else thought of it...
Example: Carlos Hathcock used to eat NOTHING other than peanut butter when he was out on a sniper mission. Because it bound him up and he wouldn't be able to shit. Why is that important? Means you can lay in one place without moving for days (and pee on yourself). Then when he got back, he would spend a day eating almost nothing but Applesauce, to unbind his bowels.
Seems obvious, huh? Everyone who needs to build a sniper hide and lay in it for up to a week should have thought of that, right? Well. No one outside of snipers knew this for decades. Simple, effective, 'obvious' once you think about it, after being told it.
Reality: If I tell you I have a piece of information. And YOU KNOW I could have only got that from 3 people in your organization. And you are Al Qaeda. What do you know? You know that one of them is a leaker or a mole.
So, I did not TELL YOU that one of three people is a leaker or a mole, but because of what you know, and what I know, you can deduce it.
In the KGB or GRU they would then either just shoot all three or torture, then shoot all three. And now I have lost an asset.
Intel is not as simple as you seem to think it is.
Buy a book sometime, it might do you good to get educated.
Thank you and have a pleasant tomorrow.
Re:Good! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 07:08 · Score: 0

People, listen - these stories that guys like this regurgitate are generally from washed out medical rolls who couldn't snuff it the first 5 minutes into Basic.
Wow, he sure learned a lot about what it's like in the military in five minutes!
The full-of-shit-o-meter is swinging way harder in your direction.
Re:Good! by Bryansix · 2012-11-09 07:22 · Score: 1

Just curious, did you make corporal before you got out?
What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? Look at Mercs. They get paid better for entry level jobs then most Sergeants (E-5/E-6) get paid.
Re:Good! by Solandri · 2012-11-09 07:26 · Score: 1

The core point still stands though - pay for military personnel is not "much better" than it used to be. All government payroll data is freely available. Toss it into a spreadsheet and you can see that the average DoD wage is among the lowest in the government at $47,400/yr. Most of the grunts in the field are going to be in the half of that bell curve below that.

Only federal employees working in "water transport & terminals" get paid less. For comparison, the average for postal workers is 40% higher at $66,500/yr You get paid 40% more for dodging unchained dogs than you do dodging bullets.
Re:Good! by SilentStaid · 2012-11-09 07:28 · Score: 1

That's the point I'm trying to make, sir. People who give you the coffee and cigarettes line like it happens every day are exaggerating because they want to sound 'hard' or tough. It's not really like that. I'm not saying it was a picnic and there wasn't some times where I didn't get screwed without a meal or something, but generally speaking even if you were in the suck at a FOBs in the Korengal Valley you could get at least 2 hot squares a day.

Side note: for people who want an accurate depiction of the non-glamorized, non-SpecOps BS check out Restrepo. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restrepo_(film)
Re:Good! by SilentStaid · 2012-11-09 07:53 · Score: 1

Your post is well thought out and I agree with everything you said. Thank you, sir.

The only statement I would make is that personally, and I emphasize personal, I'm of the opinion if you're a grunt it's almost expected that you're a 17-23yr old kid still wet behind the ears at life. You don't pay for where you live (and it's really not that bad), if you want you can eat at the mess hall ($2/meal when I was in back in 2006) and if you're doing your finances correctly you generally pay next to nothing for living. I lived pretty damn good on 24k/yr at 18. That being said... hellz yeah you're right. I wish they would pay them more. They'd get a higher quality soldier if the benefits were more in line with the responsibilities and expectations.
Re:Good! by mu51c10rd · 2012-11-09 08:38 · Score: 2

Look at the defense budget. 60% goes to contractors, the leftover 40% goes to the troops "payroll, healthcare, etc.). The defense budget is a sacred cow, you can only add, not subtract. So guess what happened when contractors figured that out?
Re:Good! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 09:06 · Score: 0

Actually you have it totally fucking backwards. The reason they're "silent warriors" is BECAUSE they shun egotistical bragging douche baggery and quietly take satisfaction at being ultra elite and accomplishing extremely difficult tasks that most others would die horribly attempting.
Aren't you engineering/software types always saying how smart you are? Yet you were unable to realize this simple truth? Sad.
Re:Good! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 09:20 · Score: 0

Yeah that's truly scary. How many billions pissed away on the F35 that doesn't even exist in a production model, and they're feeding soldiers "meat" that even fucking McDonald's wouldn't use?? So glad I decided not to enlist.
Re:Good! by Whorhay · 2012-11-09 09:25 · Score: 1

After six years and making rank as fast as possible I was actually making less than what that other guy quoted. Granted I was in the Chair Force though so things were comparatively cushy all around, especially as a programmer at an almost entirely programmer base. The base housing was either pretty nice or about to be condemned, 50 50 chance there. The Dorms were pretty miserable but livable, hot water that was slightly more transparent than mud.
The three big things I'm happy the AF gave me are:
1. A security clearance.
2. Six years of experience doing a variety of work as a programmer, DBA and Unix SA.
3. A disability rating that let me apply for jobs that weren't otherwise available to the public.
When I separated I had no trouble immediately finding a contract job because of 1 and 2. Then in a couple years I landed a permanent job because of all 3. People talk about veterans preference being a big deal but the disability thing is actually more critical because probably half of all openings are only open to existing civil servants and people with a disability rating. Once a job is advertised as open to the public your resume becomes one among hundreds instead of dozens. Now four years after separating I'm making a bit better than twice as much.
Re:Good! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 09:30 · Score: 0

I recall when the "tactics" for the SAS raid on the Iranian embassy were eventually released and everyone made a big fuss, the tactic in question was sticking a flashlight on the gun, firing from the hip and using the centre of the torch as your aiming point whilst doing so. Hardly something top secret that no one else was ever going to think of.
The fuss was due to them not using the ultra cool and expensive laser pointers that were paid for with tax money. The taxpayers insist on seeing good value for their money - like videos of smart bomb hitting buildings in Baghdad. So you see, the SAS should have been aiming with little red dots and not with some nebulous glob of yellowish light.
Re:Good! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 09:48 · Score: 0

~ Free training, vocational/technical style: They teach the bare minimum and expect the units . . . . .
Some things don't change. Hollywood-ized exchange between Eugene Sledge (WWII Marine who served in the Pacific) and some not to bright bimbo at a post war job fair went something like this (as best I can remember):
Girl: Did the Marines give you any training?
Sledge: They sent me to boot camp. And mortar training.
Girl: Journalism?
Sledge: No
Girl: Typing?
Sledge: No
Girl: Accounting:
Sledge: No
Girl: Didn't they teach you any special skills?
Sledge (quietly): They taught me to kill Japs and I was damn good at it.
He then walks away from an obviously shocked paper pusher.
Re:Good! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 09:54 · Score: 0

Funny to think how much money we throw at defense and almost none of it gets spent on you guys. That's the real travesty there.
But the money goes to the 1% who are job creators!!!
Oh wait, that was last week...sorry 'bout the relapse.
Re:Good! by Xest · 2012-11-09 10:06 · Score: 1

...and yet British and other army rations have contained constipation crackers as they're sometimes called and fruit since well before Hathcock was even born for precisely this reason. The British army was doing it in at least the 18th century to keep soldiers moving and in formation on long marches during the height of the British empire and it's included conquests. Snipers in stalingrad on both sides were using their diet to control the time they'd need to shit the year Hathcock was born also for example. Most importantly though food has been used in this way for hundreds of years in the worlds of medicine and so forth. How exactly do you think Hathcock found out the effects of his dietary options? He likely found out from a doctor in the first place who already was aware of the types of food to give him the effect he wanted. Athletes are an example of another profession that was experimenting this sort of thing long before he was born.
Which really proves the point- many military tactics are obvious to other military, or in other walks of life but when someone else finds them out they believe, like you do, that you've created some super secret new tactic. It's pretty obvious that if you want to stay still as long as possible that you need to eliminate reasons to move, and shitting is a pretty obvious one, and the obvious solution is a diet that slows down your digestive system. It's nothing to do with hindsight and everything to do with being plain obvious.
I find it rather ironic that you suggest I get educated, yet you find this very obvious thing to be something miraculous, and something invented by a guy who was born well after it was commonplace. You may want to take your own advice on this one.
It sounds like you've been fed a patriotic tale about an American legend and swallowed every ounce of it as fact, rather than recognising that some of it may not actually all have been his invention.
Re:Good! by DerekLyons · 2012-11-09 10:35 · Score: 1

they broke rules/regs then they get what they deserve.
from the article I saw earlier this morning, they're getting written reprimands and half their pay docked for two months. Not too harsh for what they did, their careers should be ok.
Yes, on the scale of military punishments, they got off fairly lightly. If they were "normal" sailors, it might set their next promotion back a couple of years. (Unless they're khaki's or up for khaki,in which case they're going to have really shine to overcome the NJP.)
But they aren't "normal" sailors. They're SEALs. Their careers are effectively over. They'll go to the back of line (and stay there) when it comes to good duty and good billets... They won't be trusted by their shipmates, and they'll be watched closely which means their evals will slip, damaging their chances for promotion. Nothing formal, nothing overt, it's just the way the game is played in the elite communities. (And back in my day, in submarines, someone who did something like this would regularly fall up ladders until they got the hint and turned in their dolphins.)
Re:Good! by shutdown+-p+now · 2012-11-09 11:15 · Score: 1

The reason why many insurgents use the spray and pray tactics is because they do not have the equipment, training, and skills to act strategically.
If you have a gun that is generally capable of shooting straight (and, yes, AK qualify, their mythological reputation as inaccurate bullet hoses is broadly wrong), then you have enough equipment to not spray and pray.
And how is "training and skills" different from "understanding techniques and tactics"?
Re:Good! by RyoShin · 2012-11-09 12:14 · Score: 1

As another former soldier (also honorably discharged, as a Specialist), I'm calling bullshit on your call of bullshit. I read the parent's reply and nodded with each and every complaint he had. My MOS in the military was that as 92G - Food Service Specialist (I maintain this as the biggest mistake in my life). Basic was a joke, I never should have graduated when I did as I spent the entire first week in quarters (this alone should have forced me to restart the cycle, IMO); I only did so for three reasons:
A) I barely hit enough targets
B) I barely ran fast enough
C) I didn't make my drill sergeants too mad at me (excelling only in book learning and Land Nav, I took an otherwise heads-down approach)
From our company about two dozen people fell out of our final victory run (6 miles, IIRC), and the pace was moderate at worst.
I was Whiskey (you know~) Co. at Ft. Lee, VA (I forget which BN, the one for Quartermasters, doesn't really matter now). It was a continual, downright embarrassment. Day one, after everyone else had gone to their training unit, my group of 70+ people waited for four hours for our sergeants to arrive. Then we sat in our common room for four hours, doing nothing. Then they realized that, hey, we might want to have dinner, so they managed to scrounge up a box of MREs for us. Much latter in the cycle, one of my and another platoon's SSGs came quite close to fisticuffs, in front of both platoons, over who would be able to use the bus to move their platoon. My platoon had to go to a training center on the other side of the post. The other platoon had to go four blocks, and apparently the other SSG didn't want to march his 98ish person platoon (yes, 98) the four blocks. (That's nothing, an incoming platoon the week we did our final field mission was 120 or so, I believe.) During this time I learned enough to basically work at a Golden Corral, if that. I had to relearn most of the actual cooking once I was assigned to my final unit. My final PT card was falsified, a fact which I found out only after arriving at my final unit, and I only knew this because the sergeant that filled it out put down the wrong time to get the minimum of 60 points (the time he put down would have actually given me 55 or so) and did not put down the right number of sit ups (he once again put down the minimum, when I know for a fact I did 10 above that).
At my unit, the first E6 I had (who is now the only E7, from talking to friends still in) for us cooks was atrocious at any kind of leadership and taking care of her soldiers, preferring to accommodate requests from anyone above her rank, even those she couldn't realistically fulfill (such as promising an extra meal we did not have the supplies for at a time after we were to head back to the rear; thankfully another SSG stepped in and ended that one). After a nervous breakdown one night (which began the path to my discharge) I straight-up told her that I had planned to kill myself, and wanted to see a psychiatrist or maybe even check into the psych ward (I had come out of a deep depression, but did not know if I'd go back in). Her reply, literally, was "Well, soldier on." Later she gave me a card with the number for 1 Stop (I think that was the number, whatever they put on the ACE cards). My BN commander would sometimes get on the radio during field missions and curse out a SSG or SFC who had the audacity to confirm a conflicting order from their own 1SG. Dates for field missions often were not confirmed until two or so weeks before the actual start (an issue for us cooks because we had to put in UGR orders 30 days in advance). My direct CO called my direct SGT a "fucking retard", to my face. One of my squad members was dealing with depression and I was worried he was going to lash out at someone and even threatened many times to do it; I talked to his SGT (who was one year younger than I) multiple times about this and, to my knowledge, nothing was ever done. They drilled it into us in Basic to not salute in the field, and when I walked past our
Re:Good! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 13:10 · Score: 0

The disciplinary letter added to their records will probably prevent future advancement, so not so good for their future military career. Hope it was worth it to them.
Re:Good! by volmtech · 2012-11-09 13:17 · Score: 1

That's why I joined the Navy. Three squares a day, plus mid-rats if you have 00:00 to 04:00 watch. Plus the best coffee grown.
Re:Good! by drinkypoo · 2012-11-09 16:35 · Score: 1

If you have a gun that is generally capable of shooting straight (and, yes, AK qualify, their mythological reputation as inaccurate bullet hoses is broadly wrong), then you have enough equipment to not spray and pray.
If things were as simple as you suggest, then they would be doing much better than they are, because both sides have an unlimited supply of ammo paid for by the USA. But it's not, because our guys are trained over here where things are peaceful and they have lots of time to learn, and their guys learn over there, behind the gun, and their mortality rate is about a bitch.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re:Good! by shutdown+-p+now · 2012-11-10 07:17 · Score: 1

You misunderstand me. I was merely saying that guns are not the problem, training is the problem, and proper training includes tactics.
But having air support and artillery helps, too...

As Tom Donilon gets away with leaking everything.. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 01:19 · Score: 1

Let's leak details of Bin Laden's death.

Let's leak details about Benghazi - oops, not THAT one!

Big deal by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 01:21 · Score: 0

The games helped consolidate corporate America's oligarchical rule more than the war itself.

Put them in jail by JustOK · 2012-11-09 01:22 · Score: 4, Funny

Put 'em in jail. If they can't break out, they weren't really good Seals anyways.

--
rewriting history since 2109

Re:Put them in jail by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 01:35 · Score: 0

Put 'em in jail. If they can't break out, they weren't really good Seals anyways.
at least the other inmates won't fuck with them more than once. i mean jesus these seals are lethal and fearless. they don't need weapons either. theyre not people you would ever want to mess with.

they could shower in peace. they could even drop the soap without fear of picking it up.
Re:Put them in jail by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 01:42 · Score: 0

And rename them to the A-Team and queue the theme song
Re:Put them in jail by EnsilZah · 2012-11-09 01:50 · Score: 5, Funny

In 2012 , a crack commando unit was sent to prison by a military court for a crime they didn't commit. These men promptly escaped from a maximum-security stockade to the Los Angeles underground. Today, still wanted by the government, they survive as soldiers of fortune. If you have a problem...if no one else can help...and if you can find them...maybe you can hire...Seal Team Six.
Re:Put them in jail by geogob · 2012-11-09 02:10 · Score: 1, Funny

Putting a whole elite tactical unit together in prison... in the same stockade... seems like a very bad idea to me. Especially if they believe they do not deserve this fate.
I'd put that in the "what could go wrong" department.
Re:Put them in jail by magic+maverick+ · 2012-11-09 02:13 · Score: 4, Interesting

Yes, put them in jail. But only because they released classified information. And if it's good enough for Bradley Manning to be locked up and tortured, then it is good enough for these people. Oh wait, these people didn't release political damaging and embarrassing information that demonstrated illegal activities by the US military.
I'm not even convinced that Bradley Manning even did anything. He's alleged to have done something, and he's been charged with various "crimes", but innocent until proven guilt amirite? And even if "proven" guilty (or if he admits guilt) I wouldn't be too sure, as he's been tortured (solitary confinement for hundreds of days) and denied access to a speedy trial, I'm sure there are heaps of other irregularities with regards his case.

--
HELP MY ACCOUNT HAS BEEN HACKED BY AN ILLIBERAL ART STUDENT SET TO DESTROY THE INTERWEBZ!
Re:Put them in jail by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 02:17 · Score: 1

*Whoosh ...EnsilZah is quoting the intro to The A-Team
Re:Put them in jail by JustOK · 2012-11-09 02:38 · Score: 1

safe from "the other" inmates, maybe.

--
rewriting history since 2109
Re:Put them in jail by JustOK · 2012-11-09 02:39 · Score: 2

They probably couldn't even fly a tank anyways.

--
rewriting history since 2109
Re:Put them in jail by geogob · 2012-11-09 02:50 · Score: 2

Regardless who is quoting what, it's still a bad idea.
Re:Put them in jail by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 03:08 · Score: 0

I dunno, man. The guys in the showers aren't just all waiting around with an erect penis waiting to cram into the nearest guys unlubricated ass that is sticking up in the air. Jeesus, you people are fucking dumb.
Re:Put them in jail by zeroryoko1974 · 2012-11-09 03:33 · Score: 1

And if someone in the white house does it, it's all fine and dandy. Nothing to see here, move along
Re:Put them in jail by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 03:47 · Score: 0

Obviously, you have been watching movies on a different Internet than the rest of us.
Re:Put them in jail by Sloppy · 2012-11-09 03:50 · Score: 1

Bad ideas are the beginning of good plots. Bad-ideas-that-look-good make for better plots, I agree, so you've got a point about the A-Team lacking in this department. But no one ever said the A-Team was good.

--
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Re:Put them in jail by mcgrew · 2012-11-09 04:16 · Score: 1

You nevah heard o' the A-Team, foo? Where Murdoch, foo? I sent him to find a big woosh fo' you!

--
Free Martian Whores!
Re:Put them in jail by SilentStaid · 2012-11-09 04:29 · Score: 1

I think your comment is hilarious, but in the words of the instructor who kicked my ass during hand to hand several times... Skill and speed can only account for so much. Eventually, size wins...

The SEALs aren't some demigods like the movies would have you believe. They're much more like the team of network admins that's been working together in the basement together for several years. They're so good because they work together so fluidly and so efficently.
Re:Put them in jail by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 06:02 · Score: 0

"In 2012 , a crack commando unit was sent to prison by a military court for a crime they didn't commit. These men promptly escaped from a maximum-security stockade to the Los Angeles underground. Today, still wanted by the government, they survive as soldiers of fortune. If you have a problem...if no one else can help...and if you can find them...maybe you can hire...Seal Team Six." (Queue Music)
FTFY
Re:Put them in jail by Daniel+Dvorkin · 2012-11-09 06:57 · Score: 1

(Queue Music)
FTFY
(Cue music.)
FTFY.

--
The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
Re:Put them in jail by HornWumpus · 2012-11-09 08:27 · Score: 1

He's working on a plea.
Basically he copped to the facts. But wants a reduced sentence because he did it out of stupidity, not malice.
He will be in for a long time.

--
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Re:Put them in jail by Minwee · 2012-11-09 08:30 · Score: 1

What if it really is the music that you listen to while you're waiting in line?
Re:Put them in jail by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 12:17 · Score: 0

As long as the US government is around ;)
Re:Put them in jail by magic+maverick+ · 2012-11-09 12:32 · Score: 1

If someone is putting you in solitary confinement for hundreds of days, I think you'd be wanting to plead to something if it will get you out.
I'm pretty sure that the only reason Manning is willing to plead to anything is because of the continual mistreatment and denial of rights (including that of a speedy trial).

--
HELP MY ACCOUNT HAS BEEN HACKED BY AN ILLIBERAL ART STUDENT SET TO DESTROY THE INTERWEBZ!
Re:Put them in jail by Daniel+Dvorkin · 2012-11-09 21:08 · Score: 1

Well ... okay.

--
The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
Re:Put them in jail by HornWumpus · 2012-11-12 06:19 · Score: 1

If the government falls his fellow prisoners will kill his traitorous ass. Guaranteed. If he wasn't in protective custody he would already be dead.

--
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'

this is what our soldiers fight for by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 01:25 · Score: 0

our soldiers fight to allow fat kids to play more realistic killing games

Re:this is what our soldiers fight for by Minwee · 2012-11-09 03:49 · Score: 1

If the alternative is that kids are forced to do the real thing, then hell yes that's what they're fighting for.
Re:this is what our soldiers fight for by jlar · 2012-11-09 08:51 · Score: 1

Obligatory: http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/4772/1767/1600/PiMpoRioR.jpg

Re:slap on the wrist by Camaro · 2012-11-09 01:27 · Score: 2

And you think Bin Laden would have kept quiet if he hadn't been killed? He would have had one of his videos out pretty damn quick with a copy of the current New York Times and pointing to the date saying "Haha, sorry guys! Better luck next time!"

Propaganda-101 by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 01:37 · Score: 0

How to you cement a lie in the public consciousness?

Build strife, conflict and disagreements on top of the original lie; create controversy over details, and the details of details. Contrive heated discussion on top of the faulty premises, and soon the faulty premises will be naturally accepted as true.

Re:slap on the wrist by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 01:39 · Score: 1

And you think Bin Laden would have kept quiet if he hadn't been killed? He would have had one of his videos out pretty damn quick with a copy of the current New York Times and pointing to the date saying "Haha, sorry guys! Better luck next time!"

if he was really the enemy then yeah. if he is really a puppet (think: actor) created by the military industrial complex to justify more foreign wars of aggression, then no.

PayBack by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 01:45 · Score: 0

This is nothing but payback for opposing Obama and making him look bad.

Could be worse by nomad-9 · 2012-11-09 01:45 · Score: 2

Just a consequence of the glorification of elite warriors (or killers, depending on the point of view) in the media and Hollywood, and in a society almost entirely based on money. That can put some pressure on maintaining a sense of duty and code of ethics in the long run.

Could be worse. They could be"consulting" for the Mexican drug cartels, as some of Mexico and Guatemala's former special forces already do...

Re:Could be worse by IndustrialComplex · 2012-11-09 02:07 · Score: 4, Insightful

There is a serious problem of believing in our own hype. It's one thing when the enemy believes that you CAN do something (which you can't, but want them to believe you can), it's a much more dangerous situation where YOU believe you can do something (but cannot reliably do it).
The deification of special forces in popular culture is very dangerous. These people are human beings, physically fit and specially trained to be sure, but regular human beings with an immense logistical system to support them.
I worry tremendously because the general population (and government leaders) will permit actions which while technically possible, are tremendously risky from the perspective of national interests. We blind ourselves with our successes and can easily slip into a might makes right belief system. I feel that we hear far too often the phrase 'teach em a lesson'.
Believing that we can or should 'teach lessons' through the use of our special forces is incredibly dangerous and actions like the raid to kill Osama should only be undertaken sparingly because not only is the risk high, but without maintaining the moral highground it will become an incredibly dangerous world when OTHER actors being to reach out and 'teach' their own 'lessons' on a similar scale.

--
Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
Re:Could be worse by 0xdeadbeef · 2012-11-09 02:18 · Score: 1

Or consulting for the most murderous dictators of Latin America....
nevermind, someone else beat them to it.
Re:Could be worse by Xest · 2012-11-09 02:40 · Score: 5, Interesting

"These people are human beings, physically fit and specially trained to be sure, but regular human beings with an immense logistical system to support them."
To be fair it's the level of physical fitness and training that matters and makes a large difference as much as anything.
When I was younger I was in the army cadets in the UK, and on an annual camp once we were sent through a fairly small forested area to try and find 5 professional soldiers hidden in there camo'd up. We did find one, hidden up a tree, but still hard to see, he was in the TA and fairly new to it at that though.
When we'd given up we walked to the edge of the forest and they were told to come out of hiding. One guy comes out with his face covered in mud with some pretty clear signs of a boot print on it. It was my boot print, as he'd been led down in a narrow gully deep with leaf litter which I'd walked straight through. The guy was a gurkha, who aren't even really classed as special forces, but it was this experience above all else that made me realise the gap between what we think is realistically possible, and what is actually possible can sometimes be quite large such that we don't even entertain it. When he showed us exactly where he'd been hidden he literally had his face covered in mud with only his eyes showing through and leaf litter on top, the amazing part was how quickly and quietly he was able to disguise himself the way he did- you could be chasing him, lose him from sight for 20 seconds and he'd have all but vanished. I'm glad I was just an army cadet and this wasn't a real war, as otherwise I suspect he may well have chopped my balls off with his kukri, and I'm kind of fond of my balls being left where they are. Between the softness of the deep leaf litter and the thick sole on my boots, I simply hadn't realised I'd walked right over someone's face.
So if this guy, not even selected for the SAS was this talented, I've always wondered what sort of things the special forces themselves get upto, and get away with. Everyone watches war films, and plays Call of Duty or whatever and thinks "Yeah, I could be that badass if I joined the military", but to most of those people you couldn't, you really couldn't. It takes a steely determination and years of practice, exercise to achieve the things they do and these people, the best of the best are the people who if they hadn't gone down the military route and joined the special forces would likely have been Olympic athletes, or other stand out professionals. It's not the sort of thing your average person has the patience and determination for.
Re:Could be worse by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 03:17 · Score: 0

The deification of special forces in popular culture is very dangerous. These people are human beings, physically fit and specially trained to be sure, but regular human beings with an immense logistical system to support them.
On the flip side, the elevation of enemies from regular human beings to super villains is also very dangerous. It's little wonder why a juvenile comic book ethos pervades throughout US culture.
Re:Could be worse by codepunk · 2012-11-09 04:34 · Score: 1

Having worked with the seals on more than one occasion I assure you that the majority of them "are not human".

--

Got Code?
Re:Could be worse by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 09:43 · Score: 0

This. Really, this. It's like when I play counter-strike and get constantly accused of hacking because I'm so good at fast accurate head shots.
Just because you can't conceive of someone being ridiculously good at something doesn't mean they aren't.
And yes they are so fit that they could easily be pro athletes.
Re:Could be worse by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 14:56 · Score: 0

Cool story, bro!

Can't buy PR like that! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 01:49 · Score: 5, Insightful

And the EA PR team just shared a collective orgasm. They must already be trying different font settings to display "So real, Navy Seals were disciplined for it!" on the game cover.

Re:Can't buy PR like that! by DarthVain · 2012-11-09 05:08 · Score: 1

Exactly. Not sure what the Navy was thinking, but you can buy this kind of PR (or did they? adjusts tinfoil hat). I mean I never even heard of it, nor would I care if I did use Seal consultants. However WTF did they share with EA that was deserving of getting diciplined? Now I want to play the game just to try and figure out what the whole secret is about!
So EA WIN, and Navy FAIL!
Re:Can't buy PR like that! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 06:18 · Score: 0

Who says they didn't buy it? I'm having a hell of a time locating the source material for this story. There is supposedly a written statement by Rear Admiral Garry Bonelli, but I haven't been able to locate it. Anyone know where I can find that statement? I'd be curious to read the whole thing to see if it's actually referring to this game, or if the quote is taken completely out of context.
All reports seem to refer back to the same CBS News article, which doesn't list *any* sources.

Hello Security Contractors by Sponge+Bath · 2012-11-09 01:52 · Score: 5, Funny

They just created seven new security contractors the government will hire back for 10 times the cost. All that and a video game, win win.

I've never really understood by IceNinjaNine · 2012-11-09 02:04 · Score: 5, Insightful

this whole "rock star" mentality with the SEALS. If I were that good.. fucking "Jedi" good.. I'd want to remain invisible. Due to compromised identitities, I view it as a matter of time before the bad guys start putting things together and whacking the families of operators as retribution. If I were those guys I'd develop a major case of STFU and teach everybody in my family how to handle a weapon. Of course, for every Mark Owen there are probably five guys wishing he'd shut up.

A quote:

Retired Army Col. Ken Allard, a career intelligence officer, described Delta Force members as "quiet professionals. Silence is security."

Read more about it here.

Re:I've never really understood by Wilf_Brim · 2012-11-09 03:33 · Score: 3, Interesting

The good ones don't. I spent about half of my 20 year Navy career in SOF. My last job was at a rather high HQ. I spent a good bit of time working with a senior enlisted: he was working in the Operations department, doing all of the crappy organizational jobs nobody wanted to do. He, for instance, was chief goat herder at the JOC (Joint Operations Center: fancy name for 35 guys with laptops all wanting more [telephones, bandwidth, coffee, whatever]). He did whatever was necessary to keep things going: move copiers, help the comm guys run lines, whatever. Since we pretty much almost always wore utility uniforms I didn't get to see his decorations until he retired. He had 2 Bronze Stars, and one Silver Star. Come to find out he was a [delete explitive] war hero, nearly Carlos Hathcock level sniper during Iraq with a JSOC unit.
Re:I've never really understood by IceNinjaNine · 2012-11-09 03:45 · Score: 1

The good ones don't.
Yeah, I figured as much, which is why I threw the disclaimer in about "there are probably five guys wishing he'd shut up".. probably even more. I'm just amazed, because even when I was stationed near 10th SFG I never heard those guys talking about anything to do with a mission... and we're just talking about standard issue greenie beanies. (They're still light years ahead of anything I did though)
Re:I've never really understood by Shotgun · 2012-11-09 04:30 · Score: 1

The one thing I was told about special operations was that if you know about them, they are already obsolete. They've had SEAL training on TV for the love of Pete. Remember when the special forces meant the Green Berets? The SEALs are some major badasses, but you don't know what to call today's true special forces...and you won't for another 20 years.

--
Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
Re:I've never really understood by Jawnn · 2012-11-09 04:42 · Score: 1

This... all over.
While in the US Army, many many years ago, my department regularly had SF medics-in-training rotate through every few weeks. The couple of them that I got to know were consummate "quiet professionals". When pressed for "war stories" they politely but consistently demurred. While they were open enough to make it quite clear that they were the real deal, it was just as clear that each was possessed of a shared cultural conditioning that kept them from even wanting to appear that way. Maybe the game maker offered enough incentive to overcome that conditioning, but I fear that it's more a case of the institution failing to "keep to the code".
Re:I've never really understood by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 04:42 · Score: 0

Just look up task force 11. (Or was it 6-26, or 121, or 145 or 88?) Each time they do something newsworthy or something leaks, the name changes. Of course, that could just be chaff and the real group is something completely different and task force 11, or whatever it is called now, gets the credit.
Re:I've never really understood by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 11:00 · Score: 0

Do a google search for the DIA - Defense Intelligence Activity. Although I'm sure the ultra ultra elite are even more secretive than this.

Fascism: it's what's for dinner by PopeRatzo · 2012-11-09 02:04 · Score: 0

Medal of Honor: Warfighter is selling so badly that they have to go to this extent to try to sell a few more copies before the new Call of Duty comes out?

Is anyone really surprised by the new "synergy" between our military and private industry? I didn't think so. How long before Seal Team Six goes into battle with logos on their uniforms? Weapons endorsements, energy drinks, etc are just around the corner.

--
You are welcome on my lawn.

I know a SEAL by argStyopa · 2012-11-09 02:05 · Score: 5, Interesting

...and I only know what he is because we've been friends since grade school.

He normally is very clear - he simply can't talk about what he does, where he was or will be, etc. No big, right?

The last year or so, I've heard him make more SEAL-related comments than I've heard him say in the previous 10. He is particularly bitter and annoyed at the 'prima-donna douchebags' that are writing books and showing up in movies.

He gets it, he does: there are great piles of money and fame and hero-worship to be gained. But he points out: nobody does his job because they want to get rich or famous.

Basically, he's disgusted at the SEALs who have taken the 'public visibility' course, and can't really understand why they aren't immediately let go and firewalled. He said he's recognized things that they've discussed, or shown in movies, that are operational methods that while the bad guys may suspect we can do it if they think about it, it's stupid to wave it in front of them. It's going to get operations blown and SEALs killed.

--
-Styopa

Re:I know a SEAL by drinkypoo · 2012-11-09 03:16 · Score: 1

Our government itself talks about where seal teams have been when it makes good propaganda. Presumably, some of the information which has leaked has been leaked, as in intentionally. Neither you nor he is cleared to know which is which.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re:I know a SEAL by ByteSlicer · 2012-11-09 05:02 · Score: 1

He said he's recognized things that they've discussed, or shown in movies, that are operational methods that while the bad guys may suspect we can do it if they think about it, it's stupid to wave it in front of them. It's going to get operations blown and SEALs killed.
Then again, the bad guys may also copy the nonsense Hollywood tactics/methods and get themselves killed sooner...

Re:slap on the wrist by ColdWetDog · 2012-11-09 02:08 · Score: 2

And you think Bin Laden would have kept quiet if he hadn't been killed? He would have had one of his videos out pretty damn quick with a copy of the current New York Times and pointing to the date saying "Haha, sorry guys! Better luck next time!"

if he was really the enemy then yeah. if he is really a puppet (think: actor) created by the military industrial complex to justify more foreign wars of aggression, then no.

Careful there dude, you'll work yourself into a lather and mess up all of that tin foil that you've been working so hard on.

--
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!

Navy Seals were created. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 02:09 · Score: 0

The SEALs were created because JFK had Marine envy. I guess making the regular Navy look tougher, it helped him get into Marylin's pants.

Most of the time when I see that the SEALs were called in, I can't help but think, "that job is really for the Marines."

Re:Navy Seals were created. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 03:11 · Score: 0

RECON!
Re:Navy Seals were created. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 03:14 · Score: 3, Insightful

Considering that many Special Forces unit soldiers have advanced college degrees, or the education equivalent to one, id question your 'source' if information. The average enlisted solider might not always be that smart, but the government doesn't hand someone above an E-5 access to millions of dollars worth of equipment if they are as dumb as a tool bag.
Re:Navy Seals were created. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 03:38 · Score: 0

As a 19 year old marine L/Cpl (E-3), I had access, control, and authority over millions of dollars of equipment. So what?
The SSgt (E6) and the GnySgt (E7) that were my bosses both had B.S. degrees. So what? 'Operators' are well-trained and well-equipped. Do they perform and accomplish missions that effect outcomes at a level commensurate with the typical marine grunt or army ranger - that arguably does much more with much less and do things more likely to improve life for the locals?
Re:Navy Seals were created. by isorox · 2012-11-09 08:30 · Score: 1

As a 19 year old marine L/Cpl (E-3), I had access, control, and authority over millions of dollars of equipment. So what?
Well at typical Government rates, I imagine you mean they gave you a toolbox :)

Marketing Ploy by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 02:10 · Score: 0

This is just lies drummed up by the makers of that video game.

Re:slap on the wrist by Matt_Bennett · 2012-11-09 02:13 · Score: 1

Heard the story on NPR this morning- In all likelihood, their careers are over. They also showed some of their specialized gear to the game makers. In general, these types of things are allowed in the military if: #1 they don't get paid, and #2 they get permission first. I think they violated both.

Re:slap on the wrist by Type44Q · 2012-11-09 02:16 · Score: 0, Flamebait

The fact that this meme gets consistently modded to oblivion when there's more than enough evidence to suggest that it's at least a fucking possibility does nothing but increase the probability of it in fact actually being the case, at least in the minds of those not necessarily hooked on the Fox News/CNN tit...

Re:Fascism: it's what's for dinner by ColdWetDog · 2012-11-09 02:16 · Score: 1

Too fuckin late.

--
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!

Accountability? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 02:17 · Score: 0

I love the lines in these kinds of articles when the powers that be are reprimanding the small fries at the bottom of the food chain. The line "that we are and will be held to a high standard of accountability" says it all. Our government... and..... accountability....? hahahahaha.. yeah right

Simple solution by Charliemopps · 2012-11-09 02:20 · Score: 1

Clearly these guys want money and adulation. And that makes sense given the type of guy the military wants to make into a seal. So give it to them. How many seals are there? Not that many... so pay them well... and when they've done something important like Bin Ladin, let them brag about it. Sit down with them, figure out what can get released and what can't. Then let them hit good morning America.

Re:Simple solution by David_Hart · 2012-11-09 02:48 · Score: 2

... and when they've done something important like Bin Ladin, let them brag about it. Sit down with them, figure out what can get released and what can't. Then let them hit good morning America.
And set up their friends and family for retaliation by other terrorists? Not a good idea....
Re:Simple solution by angelbar · 2012-11-09 02:49 · Score: 1

If they do that the will need their families under federal protection. If they care.

--
-no sig today-
Re:Simple solution by Nidi62 · 2012-11-09 02:50 · Score: 1

Clearly these guys want money and adulation. And that makes sense given the type of guy the military wants to make into a seal. So give it to them. How many seals are there? Not that many... so pay them well... and when they've done something important like Bin Ladin, let them brag about it. Sit down with them, figure out what can get released and what can't. Then let them hit good morning America.
I wouldn't really call roughly 2000 members (and total unit size, including support staff, of about 6500) to be "not that many". Compared to about 400 for Recon Marines and 800-1000 (including support staff) for Delta. And remember, most SEALs do work that is closer to what Recon marines or Army Special Forces do. It is only Team Six that is the equivalent to Delta. SEALs are generally just the navy version of your basic special forces soldier. That being said, I know and used to work out with a guy that is finishing up his SEAL training, and they are all intelligent, highly trained, and dedicated soldiers. But you are bound to run into a few guys with egos and that desire for recognition, which goes against the very ethos of most special forces groups.

--
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil

and get a dishonorable discharge?? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 02:20 · Score: 0

So the only job they will be able to get will be working for the other side???

But it's ok for zero dark thirty by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 02:31 · Score: 0

And giving access to classified docs if there's official political propaganda purposes behind it.

Re:slap on the wrist by fustakrakich · 2012-11-09 02:33 · Score: 5, Funny

"we will attack tomorrow at 2am" makes sense to keep that secret. "we had to fight three groups of guards before we got to bin ladin" makes no sense at all.

My orders came through. My squadron ships out tomorrow. We're bombing the storage depots at Daiquiri at 1800 hours. We're coming in from the north, below their radar.

When will you be back?

I can't tell you that. It's classified.

--
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”

Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 02:35 · Score: 0

Maybe if the fucking Navy paid them for what they do, and the risk they take, they wouldn't need to get extra cash from a video game company. But since their retiredment cash from the US Navy means they'll be schucking oysters after their done with active duty you can bet I'd look for some extra cash too

CoD clones are not realistic by ikaruga · 2012-11-09 02:35 · Score: 2

What is the point of having real counseling from the military for realism if the game still features regenerative health, undestructable covers and stupid A.I.? The Navy should sue EA for false advertisement.

Re:CoD clones are not realistic by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 07:52 · Score: 0

Those ARE the secrets that they gave away.
Re:CoD clones are not realistic by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 11:29 · Score: 0

There's a diference between realistic games and simulators.
With simulators, the goal is to be as close to reality as possible.
With (realistic) games such as Call of Duty and the like, they will never reduce entertainment value just to get increased realism. A realistic sniper mission would feature the player laying in a hide for hours or even days until the target appears, and then it's a whopping 5 seconds of action and adrenaline and the mission is complete. This sorta stuff simply wouldn't be entertaining and thus wouldn't sell.
You mention Regenerative Health as an example, but more realistic alternatives would be that the player, after taking a bullet to the arm, spends a couple weeks chilling in a hospital or being dragged around by teammates on a stretcher, CoD players in general don't want any of that shit, they wanna shoot bad guys.
Re:CoD clones are not realistic by ikaruga · 2012-11-09 17:58 · Score: 1

You make a good point and I agree with you. But that is actually my point as well.
The reason the Navy and the SEALs have all those secrets is because their men don't have regenerative health and none of the other perks associated with video games. From a gameplay point of view it makes absolutely no sense at all spend money paying for these secrets and trying to implement them on the game. On top of that you said yourself that COD players don't want any of that and just want to shoot people. They don't care about tactics. Heck the selling point for all these games is the multiplayer, which is pure chaos.
Calling these games realistic really doesn't make any sense neither from a developer point of view, neither from a gamer point of view. Just call them arcade style FPS or something like that(Just like like Ace Combat is usually called by users and critics Arcade Air/Dogfighter Combat game and not a Realistic Simulator). And the only thing EA managed with this marketing plot was exposing military secrets.

The game was much better than the movie by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 02:39 · Score: 0

And Charlie Sheen really is a horrible actor, worse than Tom Cruise.

Cruel Punishment by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 02:40 · Score: 0

So they have been given a letter of reprimand? This seems to me a very cruel and unusual punishment. I mean, c'mon, the same punishment was administered to Marine Staff Sgt. Christopher van Goethem, for killing a man while driving under the influence of alcohol. For their crime, the SEALs should've been - at most - yelled at.

Re:slap on the wrist by kelemvor4 · 2012-11-09 02:40 · Score: 1

And you think Bin Laden would have kept quiet if he hadn't been killed? He would have had one of his videos out pretty damn quick with a copy of the current New York Times and pointing to the date saying "Haha, sorry guys! Better luck next time!"

if he was really the enemy then yeah. if he is really a puppet (think: actor) created by the military industrial complex to justify more foreign wars of aggression, then no.

Since he's out of the picture, they're now using Anonymous Coward to fill the role 'eh?

unwritten code by fche · 2012-11-09 02:41 · Score: 1

"violated the unwritten code that SEALs are silent warriors who shun the spotlight."

Oh dear, there goes THAT bit of secrecy. Or maybe it was already gone:
http://usnavysealfoundation.org/SEAL_CODE.html

common sense by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 02:44 · Score: 0

I'd love to see your "common sense" batted out against real SEALS in a paintball match. By that I mean in real life, not some online paintball game.

Re:common sense by Xest · 2012-11-09 03:03 · Score: 1

I'm not sure what the point of that would be. I certainly don't have the training or level of fitness they do.
It doesn't mean I don't have an equivalent or better level of common sense though.
They'd win on their physical fitness and training alone, regardless of that.

Re:slap on the wrist by kelemvor4 · 2012-11-09 02:44 · Score: 4, Insightful

The fact that this meme gets consistently modded to oblivion when there's more than enough evidence to suggest that it's at least a fucking possibility does nothing but increase the probability of it in fact actually being the case, at least in the minds of those not necessarily hooked on the Fox News/CNN tit...

Never say never, I suppose - but the idea does seem a little crazy. He's been dead for quite some time and there's been no problem justifying the foreign wars without him. There was also no problem doing it before any of us ever heard of him. Seems like a long and risky road for the government to take to get a justification that they didn't even need.

Re:slap on the wrist by Vanderhoth · 2012-11-09 02:46 · Score: 1

I don't know, with what it costs to train someone and how few people actually have the ability to be a seal it's probably not worth firing them.

There are no charges by patriciacurtis · 2012-11-09 02:50 · Score: 0

How can they be charged with giving secrets away when they did not kill bin laden. he was killed pre 2008 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKDYZfEbEow 2:10 mins in

--
http://luckyredfish.com

So how is this any different... by pongo000 · 2012-11-09 02:54 · Score: 3, Insightful

...from the active duty SEALs used in Act of Valor? Oh wait, I know the answer: Because Act of Valor was a nice little right-wing propaganda film that showed the Navy in their best light. And EA is just a gaming company. Or something like that.

Re:So how is this any different... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 07:30 · Score: 1

'Act of Valor' (which should have never been made into a movie released into theaters) started out as an 'in house' recruiting movie.
The same way 'Men with Green Faces' was used to new Sailors to give them an idea of what the Teams were (because until the late '80s, not a lot of people really knew the story behind USN UDT/SEAL).
Then someone got the bright idea that it could be made into a movie. Something which a lot of SEALs were not happy about.
But the main difference is Act of Valor had the blessing of the USN and the DoD before production started. Which is why you see an actual Imp'd L.A. SSN 'in action' (something you won't see in any other movie - from that viewpoint at least - for a long, long time).
Be certain that for every SEAL you see interviewed on TV, every SEAL website, every SEAL fitness program, every SEAL book that deals with actions less than 20-30 years in the past...there are a couple hundred SEALs who are pissed off by it. The majority of the community doesn't want any publicity. Your 'average' SEAL will not reveal his actual duties in casual conversation with anyone. "You're in the military?" Yeah. "What branch?". Navy. "What do you do?" I'm a hull tech/I'm a diver/I work with radios/etc.
The real quiet professionals (on the Navy side of things) have a term for it: "Pimping the Trident." It generally takes a few years as a SEAL to get to the point where you're actually considered an asset to your platoon. Guys who bail at the first chance (enlistment up, 1 platoon under their belt) and start SECRETS OF NAVY SEAL ELITE FITNESS FOR CORPORATIONS AND ATHLETES 'Developed by an actual US Navy SEAL! Learn the secrets to insane morning workouts lasting for hours! Actually the secret is red vines and french fries but I'll make something more scientific up and make money! Did I mention I was a REAL US NAVY SEAL for almost 4 years!?' aren't necessarily disliked or looked down upon. But they aren't held in the same regard as the guys coming off their 4th/6th/8th combat deployment who are a lasting asset to the community.
The guys broke the rules. They went for the money when most of their Bros didn't. "1 oh sh!t cancels out 1000 attaboys". They were taught that lesson as new SEALs, guaranteed. Too bad they didn't take it to heart. Sucks to be them. In other news, we're still at war. Next story-
-A former SEAL who is not bitter at all. Really.
Re:So how is this any different... by pongo000 · 2012-11-09 10:06 · Score: 1

Thanks for taking the time to post this, it does clarify the distinction. I'd mod you up if I didn't blow my points on posting...

Just Get Elected President by sycodon · 2012-11-09 02:55 · Score: 2, Funny

Then, you can simply declassify what you want and get some of your Hollywood buddies to make a movie with the information.

Fucking hypocritical is what it is.

--
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.

Re:Just Get Elected President by K.+S.+Kyosuke · 2012-11-09 04:39 · Score: 2

Then, you can simply declassify what you want and get some of your Hollywood buddies to make a movie with the information.
And in the movie, make bin Laden the arch-villain seven feet tall, three hundred pounds of pure bones and muscles and have him defend himself with his personal sidearm, 20mm Gatling gun. Then slap a "based on a true story" sticker onto it and publish it.

--
Ezekiel 23:20
Re:Just Get Elected President by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 05:05 · Score: 0

And The One himself parachuted in to do it personally.

Say "Hi" to Bradley Manning for us by bill_mcgonigle · 2012-11-09 02:57 · Score: 2

The are going to be locked in solitary for years for revealing State Secrets, right?

--
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)

SEAL members have some problems by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 03:00 · Score: 0

Was never a 'speacil' operator, or anything close. As a former federal employee, had encounters with members of this group that made me wonder what these people were being fed. They frequently interferred with essential test operations at San Clemente, would park water-borne vehicles (Del Mar Boat Basin of Pendelton's 21 Area) that blocked use of research and tactical training equipment, walk into buildings next to dock to use the head and leave a mess, leave open fuel containers on the dock, allow POLs to leak into the water, etc. At least for the SEAL members that I have encountered, their demeanor was not professional, they were loud and arrogant, and certainly not representative of the professional warfighters of today's American military.

If a typical marine grunt or army ranger had done a similar opsec violation, they would have been busted down in rank and served brig time.

Read between the lines. by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 03:03 · Score: 0

Accountable to whom? Us or their masters?

So if I was critical of the "Medal of Honor" series, I might actually have been critical of something based more in fact then fantasy. When you go overseas and do bad shit to bad people and maybe the occasional collateral innocent. Bad shit can potentially happen to you and your pals. Its dishonorable to put your pals at risk. But its not amoral. And in some cases some of the SEALs might deserve some critisizim or backlash from the institutions or people they have involved themselves with. So it may not be entirely dishonorable. Particularly if certain members felt that by cooperating with a major media institution was the only way to tell a controversial story, one they felt deserved public critisism.

Also who knows if these guys were not delibertly feeding misinformation to the game companies and this is just to legitimise it.

Maybe if you did honorable things, and had an honorable service people might be honorable and keep their mouths shut. But you cant blame the truth for becoming known, no matter how obscure its channels.

Opsec is why these guys are being punished. Which is legitamete, but the ones doing the punishment are responsable for training the punished and accepting missions that might have broken the moral and integrity of their soldiers.

Re:slap on the wrist by X0563511 · 2012-11-09 03:16 · Score: 4, Interesting

The paranoia is there, because you can't know what will let the enemy connect the dots until it's too late. You can't know what information they need, so you try to hide it all.

Doesn't make much sense for us regular folks, but we aren't likely to be shot or tortured if someone gets some information from us.

--
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...

Dummies by Sun.Jedi · 2012-11-09 03:20 · Score: 1

It's rather upsetting the SEALS were not using common sense. I thought these were the best and brightest. How much brain power does it take to know they probably should have asked permission, or at least notified someone they were assisting with a game. Equally sad is that MOH:Warfighter had tons of exciting potential in the theme but ended up predictable and lackluster in the delivered product.

This is bullshit by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 03:29 · Score: 0

So it's ok to make a movie using seals(Act of Valor) but a video game is a problem? This sounds like someone missing out on a piece of someone elses pie, and now we get to listen to him cry about it. NO ONE CARES! Your game and your movie SUCKED anyway. Fuck off.

Thanks for your service, brother by Safety+Cap · 2012-11-09 03:36 · Score: 1

~ Free food: Bought at a cost ration of greatest weight per dollar, which translated into cheapest food medically allowed. Joke I heard was: Grade E Beef-substitute, suitable for Americans worst and finest, served to our military and death-row inmates. With the way the Army operates, I was lucky to get two meals a day from cooks. Breakfast usually consisted of coffee and cigarettes, a bagel if I was lucky. Lunch and dinner was at the dining facilities where everything was rationed out using grade school sized portions. I ate the best when I was in the field or on vacation.

Oh man, I'm so glad I was in and out way before the era of obscene contractor takeover. At least we knew that if the E-6 in charge of the mess served up rotten food, he would get Article 15'd at least.

Your post reminds me of one time I got in line for chow for dinner. Yum, roast beef: we could smell it form outside the building. I slide my metal, WW2-surplus tray down the line and the E-2 ladles me a nice portion.

I sit down and start tearing into the meat, but nearly gag in horror when I get a piece into my mouth. I pull it out and realize that it is 100% fat/gristle. The brown gravy camouflaged the fact that there was no meat. I dig around and find a few bits of actual meat. Maybe the size of a quarter, if you mash them all together. So, I did what I always do when faced with crap from REMFs:

I carefully pour the grease-infused watery brown gravy onto my potatoes and (white, pasty) bread, drink my water, and think of creative ways to frag low-bid contractors. If I hadn't had night duty, I probably would've Hoggled when I got back to the barracks. God damn Army.

--
Yeah, right.

Re:slap on the wrist by RabidReindeer · 2012-11-09 03:40 · Score: 2

"I'm here in Iraq with the Army's 101st Airborne Division, and we're headed this way (draws map in sand for camera)."

Geraldo Rivera, during the invasion of Iraq.

Any other war, any other network and he would have been shot for treason. Can't give a whole lot more aid to the enemy than that.

Re:slap on the wrist by Dishevel · 2012-11-09 03:41 · Score: 5, Insightful

What they want to keep secret are the ways in which they do things.
Surprise, they like it. Confusion, they encourage it. These are things that help keep them alive.
In football you of course do not want the opposing team to know what play you are panning on doing next.
But it is also damaging to have the opposing team have your play book.
The seals were giving out pages of the Seal playbook for a fucking video game. I play games. I like em.
Really though. Giving out pages of the Seal playbook so that a fucking video game can be a little better should be punished. Heavily.

--
Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?

Re:slap on the wrist by moderatorrater · 2012-11-09 03:48 · Score: 2

So what you're saying is that it's a high risk operation with no reward? And that somebody involved would probably have come forward by now since that would be a huge news story, they'd be a hero, and there's no moral justification for the action?

Sounds like you're the crazy one!

Will EA be jailed and fined as well? Treason? by Viewsonic · 2012-11-09 03:56 · Score: 1

They must have known a lot of this info was classified, I mean they're the "experts" on all of this, right? It doesn't matter if the SEALS said otherwise, I am guessing EA knew. They were just as much a part of this as the SEALS were.

Re:Will EA be jailed and fined as well? Treason? by UnknowingFool · 2012-11-09 04:53 · Score: 1

I had a friend who had some secret clearance in the Air Force and it made no sense to him what was classified and what wasn't. For example the color of the paint used on the F-117A Nighthawk stealth fighter was classified yet part numbers that went into it were not. In retrospect, the stealth fighter is not black but very dark purple. Probably this was due because the Air Force carried one paint in that color and it had special properties in the paint to help with stealth while the some parts used in the aircraft were common enough not to need to be classified.

--
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.

Different times by rabenja · 2012-11-09 03:57 · Score: 1

My roommate on my last ship (late 80's) was the CO of the embarked Seal team. I cannot imagine him or anyone of his people prostituting their team's reputation. It must be a different Navy today.

No giving away secrets ... by PPH · 2012-11-09 04:05 · Score: 1

... unless you are a retiring Pentagon official going to work for a defense contractor.

--
Have gnu, will travel.

Re:slap on the wrist by Richy_T · 2012-11-09 04:08 · Score: 1

<tinfoil>Unless they died in a somewhat convenient helicopter crash, of course...</tinfoil>

An old-time squid's perspective by sgtrock · 2012-11-09 04:16 · Score: 3, Insightful

I can echo some of what this former soldier says, but disagree with some.

I served in the Navy from '77-'83. I got out as a petty officer first class so I wasn't exactly at the top of the heap.

From a financial standpoint, this was just about the worst possible time to be in the U.S. military for about a hundred years. We had just moved back to an all volunteer force after years of a very unpopular draft. Vietnam had created a public perception that only baby killers and drunks wanted to enlist in the first place so the overall quality of people enlisting was all over the map. People really did join up because they had to (sometimes because the judge ordered them to), or because they felt an obligation as a citizen to do so. Not much in between. (BTW, some of the best sailors and Marines knew started out with some judge telling them, "Four years in uniform or prison. Your choice.")

Standards were pretty low because all of the branches were desperate to fill slots. High school diploma? Boy, you were an ace recruit!

It was common practice for recruiters to pull all kinds of tricks to fill quotas; lying on enlistment forms, taking qualifying tests for recruits, etc. I can't say that I blame them, though. If they didn't, they were subject to all kinds of judicial abuse. (Court martials for not filling quotas? Really??)

While I was in boot camp, I worked in the chow hall's storage locker. I personally saw huge stacks of canned beef with expiration dates from the late '50s. The cooler broke down and we were still told to put the spoiled milk on the line. When I finished with Service Week, just about the only things I would take off the line was bread and water. At least I knew that was fresh.

I knew married chiefs and senior chiefs with 20+ years in who qualified for food stamps. Year long deployments with 2 week turnarounds, while rare, weren't unheard of.

One year, 3 ships were declared unfit for sea the day they were scheduled to deploy due to lack of funds for proper maintenance.

The Iran hostage crisis exposed fundamental flaws in our communications network, logistical support, and inter-service doctrine. Thankfully, that was all largely addressed before the Gulf War.

In spite of all that, it wasn't all bad. My electronics training was pretty good considering the lack of resources. I had an opportunity to work with a really broad range of communications gear with people who really knew their stuff. I was way ahead of my civilian colleagues when I got out and hit the market.

Once I got out to the fleet I found out that Navy chow was actually pretty good most of the time, especially at shore stations. From an enlisted man's point of view, it's one major advantage that the Navy has traditionally had over the Army, after all. ;-)

I worked a swing shift schedule at one base for several years. We covered electronic maintenance on communications gear all over Oahu. Our command was responsible for supporting not just Navy, but Marine, Army, and Air Force equipment too. It gave us the chance to sample chow at a lot of different bases during our midnight runs.

I'd have to say that the best midnight breakfasts to be had were at Hickam Air Force Base. The cook behind the grill served up a mean Western omelet.

Wheeler Army Airfield had a pretty good chow hall, too. I was partial to their steak sandwiches.

The chow hall at the submarine base at Pearl Harber was run by a Filipino master chief who injected a lot of his native dishes into the menu. It's where I was introduced to lumpia. My mouth is watering just thinking about it now, 30+ years later. :-)

Given the same circumstances and what I know now, would I still enlist? Absolutely. My Navy electronics training got me started in IT with both the skills and the experience to put me head and shoulders above the competition. As a junior sailor I had more responsibility in my early 20s that most civilians don't get until they're

Re:slap on the wrist by K.+S.+Kyosuke · 2012-11-09 04:18 · Score: 1

"we had to fight three groups of guards before we got to bin ladin" makes no sense at all.

Actually, it makes perfect sense in a game. You first engage the minions, and only after all minions are dead, you can fight the boss to proceed to the next level.

--
Ezekiel 23:20

Re:slap on the wrist by kelemvor4 · 2012-11-09 04:31 · Score: 1

So what you're saying is that it's a high risk operation with no reward?

Yes.

And that somebody involved would probably have come forward by now since that would be a huge news story, they'd be a hero, and there's no moral justification for the action?

No, just that I think it's unlikely because it's an extremely elaborate idea with no (or very little) reward.

Yeah, right by Maury+Markowitz · 2012-11-09 04:36 · Score: 1

So it's perfectly OK for active duty SF personal to advice and appear in blatant self-promotional crap like "Act Of Valor".

But not OK at all if they do it with a private firm.

Yeah, makes sense.

Re:slap on the wrist by moderatorrater · 2012-11-09 04:39 · Score: 5, Funny

My favorite part of the conspiracy theory is where the government is competent enough to cover this up indefinitely, but not competent enough to come up with a better plan.

Re:slap on the wrist by ShanghaiBill · 2012-11-09 04:42 · Score: 1

Any other war, any other network and he would have been shot for treason.

During the Falklands War, the BBC reported that although several British ships had been hit by bombs, casualties were light because most of the bombs had defective detonators. Argentina quickly fixed the problem with the detonators. No one was shot for treason.

Re:slap on the wrist by amRadioHed · 2012-11-09 04:46 · Score: 1

Such sound reasoning you got there. Clearly the random /. mods know something that the government doesn't want let out.

--
We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace

Re: Navy Seals Disciplined For Revealing Secrets by StikyPad · 2012-11-09 05:00 · Score: 0

Just to be clear...

This is a Navy Seal.

This is a Navy SEAL.

--
https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere

Classification System by DaveAtFraud · 2012-11-09 05:10 · Score: 2

Lots of uninformed babble on /. (as usual). Nobody seems to ask the question of, "How does some information become classified?" Hint: it isn't just somebody says, "This should be a secret." Typically there is a organization document called the "Classification Guide" that provides (of all things) guidance on what sorts of information should be considered classified. Generally, these are derived from some higher organizaton's document that is more general with some unlucky person getting stuck with the job of crafting a new, more specific document from the older higher level one. And typically this person won't know the technical details of how the guide will be applied or even necessarily what it will be applied to.

This all sounds really good until reality sets in. In the one case I have in mind, the higher level document said that system capabilities such as effective ranges and such should be classified. The system I was working on was an over the horizon radar with the range dictated by atmospheric physics and documented in standard textbooks on radar (e.g., Skolnik). But the effective range was still classified on our system because that was the sort of information the classification guide said should be classified.

So, if you quoted the number in the textbook, you were fine. If you quoted the number from internal documentation, you were breaking the law. Don't expect everything a large organization does to make sense. It won't.

Cheers,
Dave

--
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty.
Ben

Re:Classification System by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 05:38 · Score: 1

Lots of uninformed babble on /. (as usual). Nobody seems to ask the question of, "How does some information become classified?" Hint: it isn't just somebody says, "This should be a secret."

After a number of years spent on classified programs, I can sadly contradict your post. Most stuff gets classified because it either (a) might embarass someone if it got out or (b) it's easier to classify everything than take the time to classify only the actual classified portions.
Re:Classification System by DaveAtFraud · 2012-11-09 06:06 · Score: 1

I worked for a defense contractor so we saw very little of "a" but lots of "b". The problem was that classifying everything made it that much harder to get anything done so there was always a push to read the classification guide as narrowly as possible from the trenches and a push from management to keep everything classified so no one made any mistakes and released something that they shouldn't. We became very adept at finding unclassified sources so we could keep the development unclassified and only inserting the classified numbers towards the end of the development (they didn't usually differ but we would point to say an article in "Aviation Week" that we said was "close enough").
Cheers,
Dave

--
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty.
Ben

Advertisement by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 05:34 · Score: 0

Medal of Honor: Warfighter. The game does not recreate the bin Laden raid, but it does portray realistic missions

No it does not.

Re:slap on the wrist by RabidReindeer · 2012-11-09 05:34 · Score: 1

During the Falklands War, the BBC reported that although several British ships had been hit by bombs, casualties were light because most of the bombs had defective detonators. Argentina quickly fixed the problem with the detonators. No one was shot for treason.

I found verification for half of that statement. Can't find enough details for the other half. For all I can determine, the news was released on behalf of the British Government to misdirect the enemy.

Geraldo, on the other hand, was broadcasting real-time troop information. The only thing that kept Saddam from being able to exploit it was that his army was not merely less effective than we thought, it was less effective than HE thought. Then again, the same was true of his WMDs. His Ministry of Information wasn't so hot, either.

The punishment by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 08:06 · Score: 0

The non-judicial punishment decisions made today

So did they get the administrative punishment of ten slashes?

Tuna are canned by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-09 08:45 · Score: 0

They should have been flat out canned

Seals are clubbed and turned into coats.

Slashdot dating habits (OT) by davidwr · 2012-11-09 08:48 · Score: 1

I weren't eternally single (never dated)

Q: What do call a slashdot poster who says he's never dated?
A: An honest person.

--
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.

"Al-Qaeda vows revenge for bin Laden death." by westlake · 2012-11-09 09:22 · Score: 2

Obviously just a PR stunt for promoting the game. Also serves USA PR interests carrying on myth of that whole bin laden complex raid and mysterious sea burial malarkey!

the sheeple are so dumb they believe anything with no evidence if it is official enough.

This from Aljazerra:

Al-Qaeda vows revenge for bin Laden death. Group confirms death of its leader in an online posting and says it will continue attacks on the West.

No terrorist has ever shown more media-savvy then bin Laden

The propaganda value of a bin Laden audio tape or video produced after the US announced his death can't be possibly underestimated.

None has ever surfaced.

Spotlight? by slapout · 2012-11-09 10:35 · Score: 1

"they used classified material which had been given to them by the Navy and also violated the unwritten code that SEALs are silent warriors who shun the spotlight."

I understand that they shouldn't have used classified material. But it doesn't seem to me that they're shining the spotlight on themselves.

--
Coder's Stone: The programming language quick ref for iPad

Slashdot readers disciplined by Kplx138 · 2012-11-09 13:02 · Score: 1

this just in slashdot readers disciplined for believing obvious advertising for actual news story
it's right up there with china banning the ps3 for being a super computer and other advertisements
either the people approving these stories are gullible or getting paid by the companies

for the money? by issicus · 2012-11-09 18:55 · Score: 1

I can't imagine a navy SEAL gets paid much. A fat check might look quite appealing after all the bullshit they go through.

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Navy Seals Disciplined For Revealing Secrets As Consultants On Video Game

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