Samsung Claims iPad Mini, iPad 4, New iPod Touch Also Infringe Patents

SternisheFan writes "Here we go again. Korean electronics giant Samsung has added three new Apple products to the list of products that the company claims infringes on its patents. In a filing to the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of California, Samsung has added the iPad mini, the new iPad 4, and the fifth-generation iPod touch to an existing lawsuit that covers devices such as the iPhone 5, iPad 4, and earlier iPod touch devices. According to the filing, Samsung believes that 'good cause exists' to add these three devices to the original infringement claim, 'because Apple's new products were not yet available when Samsung submitted its original contentions on June 15, 2012 or its first motion to supplement its infringement contentions on October 1, 2012.'"

Comments

Global Thermonuclear Patent War

[jjeffries]

A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.

Re:Global Thermonuclear Patent War

[MightyMartian]

Yes. Apparently this is what we now call "innovation".

Re:Global Thermonuclear Patent War

[History's Coming To]

You can also play the "launch all the missiles for the hell of it" card. Which is what's happening - these devices are on convergent evolutions and they're arguing over the current tiny ideas instead of the next big ones. Good reference though.

Re:Global Thermonuclear Patent War

[aNonnyMouseCowered]

"A strange game. The only winning move is not to play."

Strange? If the other side nukes you, you'd be a fool not to nuke them back.

Re:Global Thermonuclear Patent War

[Anonymous Coward]

That's exactly why it's strange; both sides lose.

Re:Global Thermonuclear Patent War

[viperidaenz]

If one side nukes you, the only way to not lose is to pack up your shit and go and live with the other side, before the bombs detonate/the fallout reaches you.

Re:Global Thermonuclear Patent War

[ozmanjusri]

Actually, in the patent game, both sides get to increase their cost-to-customer as well as barriers to market entry for small players and startups. For big companies, patent wars are a win, which is why they so willingly participate.

For their customers, on the other hand...

Re:Global Thermonuclear Patent War

[trout007]

Or be the lawyers.

Re:Global Thermonuclear Patent War

[aztracker1]

Maybe the best way to address this is for a judge to simply embargo the classes of products from involved parties until the issue is resolved.. then we're not pushed into getting the new shiney for a while, and the companies can bite it until they then push the government to abolish patents... I honestly believe that there are some genuine innovations deserving of patent protection, but that our government is too inept to actually come up with a system that rejects more patents than it grants.

Re:Global Thermonuclear Patent War

[symbolset]

Or to be off-planet at the time. Offsite backups people!

Re:Global Thermonuclear Patent War

[symbolset]

Eventually the lawyers will reap what they sow. It ain't gonna be pretty.

Re:Global Thermonuclear Patent War

[Anonymous Coward]

Psssst... "Pity" is a noun, not an adjective.

"It's a pity (that)..." or "It's too bad (that)...".

It is a pity that there is no "+1 Grammer Nazi"

Re:Global Thermonuclear Patent War

[RaceProUK]

It is a pity that there is no "+1 Grammer Nazi"

Need I say more?

Re:Global Thermonuclear Patent War

[partyguerrilla]

Is nuclear war under the scope of Godwin's law?

Re:Global Thermonuclear Patent War

[Rogerborg]

Oh, sir, I do protest. A lawyer would never stoop to anything as productive as reaping or sowing. I'm led to believe that Abe Lincoln hunted vampires though, which is kind of a bloodsucker showdown.

Re:Global Thermonuclear Patent War

[gstoddart]

Actually, in the patent game, both sides get to increase their cost-to-customer as well as barriers to market entry for small players and startups. For big companies, patent wars are a win, which is why they so willingly participate.

That's accurate, but highly depressing.

And it highlights the problem -- this doesn't help consumers or foster innovation, it mostly just makes sure the big companies have no competition.

Re:Global Thermonuclear Patent War

[lsatenstein]

You can also play the "launch all the missiles for the hell of it" card. Which is what's happening - these devices are on convergent evolutions and they're arguing over the current tiny ideas instead of the next big ones. Good reference though.

---
what pisses me off is that the lawsuites between Apple and Samsung are raising the prices of the items I would have considered purchasing. We just bought a Lenova tablet at a great deal price. It was 1/3 less than the equivalent Samsung or at the price that Samsung had to sell it at, if there was no lawsuits.

And, in other news - Black Friday Patent sales....

[DontScotty]

And, in other news - Black Friday Patent sales are expected to open at 10 pm this evening.

Patents on "Duh", "Obvious", and "Send me a memo titled Shit I Already Know" are expected to go quickly.

That does it!

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm copyrighting infringing a patent. Anybody who violates my trademark will have to undergo an auto-da-fe.

Re:That does it!

[iluvcapra]

"This, being the best of all possible worlds, God saw it fit to invent the Rope."

(Sound of gallows trap door opening.)

Mooooooooommmmm!

[SIR_Taco]

Samsung: 'Apple's looking at me!!!!'
Apple: 'Am not!'
Samsung: 'Are too!'
Apple: 'Am not!'
Samsung: 'Are too!'
Apple: 'Am not!'
Samsung: 'Are too!'
Apple: 'Am not!'
Samsung: 'Are too!' ...

Previously from our last episode:

Apple: 'Samsung's looking at me!!!!'
Samsung: 'Am not!'
Apple: 'Are too!'
Samsung: 'Am not!'
Apple: 'Are too!'
Samsung: 'Am not!'
Apple: 'Are too!'
Samsung: 'Am not!'
Apple: 'Are too!'

Re:Mooooooooommmmm!

[Rogerborg]

Yehbut... Apple started it.

Did too.

Re:Mooooooooommmmm!

[HiThere]

What you have wrong is that it's the same episode. So you've inverted the timing of the claims.

This is Samsung responding to Apple attacking them. If the judge is fair, Apple will probably be forced to sign a patent pool agreement with Samsung. This preserves the patents to be allowed to attack newcomers. (So are the judge has seem biased towards Apple. Samsung is creating multiple grounds for appeal, as is legally required, because if you don't claim now, you won't be able to claim it in the appeal.)

Caution: IANAL.

And the winner is RIM

[lucm]

Anyone noticed that while Apple and Samsung are fighting each other in court, RIM stock is going up? Of course nobody will say that an obsolete, buggy device on an unreliably network is infringing on their patents. Quite brilliant: let the big boys beat each other down and step up as the safest choice for nervous enterprise customers.

Re:And the winner is RIM

[cavtroop]

Interesting, but not relevant. I work for a corporation that just standardized on the iPhone (against my recommendations). RIM was never even at the table. Sales, Marketing and even IT guys just don't want to be seen with a BB device anymore - they all want either an iPhone (mostly) or a Samsung GIII (minority). That's it. Its more about cool factor and being seen with the device, even in the business world.

As part of the evaluation, we spoke to close to a dozen other companies that recently went through the same process, and pretty much got the same response - that the users overwhelmingly refused to have anything to do with a RIM product, and wanted the flashy new iPhone or GIII.

Re:And the winner is RIM

[Aranykai]

I dont know that i would consider that trend significant given the stock history over the last 5 years.

Re:And the winner is RIM

[lucm]

As part of the evaluation, we spoke to close to a dozen other companies that recently went through the same process, and pretty much got the same response - that the users overwhelmingly refused to have anything to do with a RIM product, and wanted the flashy new iPhone or GIII.

I'd be curious to know where people put the Windows 8 phone in that lineup.

Re:And the winner is RIM

[lucm]

I think Fama would disagree with you

Re:And the winner is RIM

[Anubis IV]

RIM may not be taking punches from the big players, but that's only because they're being trod underfoot by them. And if you look at their long-term stock trends, rather than focusing on just a small part of it, you'd see that as well.

It's not like Apple or Samsung are going away anytime soon. Either Apple loses and has to pay damages + licensing fees for these patents (which they have plenty of money to be able to handle), or Samsung loses and things continue on as they have. Either way, RIM continues to lose major contracts with governments (as was reported here last week), loses even more contracts with businesses that are switching to newer devices that can do more (e.g. so many software developers at the company I work for use iDevices that the company bought Apple TVs for all of the conference rooms so that any of us with iDevices can use AirPlay to show our mobile screen on the projectors or TVs; not to mention Yahoo letting employees get any major smartphone except for a BB), continues to be viewed as the has-been brand that few people want for personal use, and gets pushed into more and more niche markets overseas, where they'll eventually disappear due to lower margins and increasing demands (e.g. being forced to give up private data on their network in India).

BB10 is their only hope at this point, but it's unlikely that it will be able to turn things around for them, I'd guess. I might feel differently about it if they had a recent history of putting out products that were well-received, but they haven't exactly been doing that. Besides which, Palm went under after putting out WebOS, which was universally acclaimed as being an excellent OS, which is more than I'm expecting with BB10. RIM seems to be in a bad spot at this point, so I don't see how they can hope to recover. I even have a friend working for them...we've been trying to tell him to get out for years, but he staunchly refuses to believe that they're in trouble, despite thousands of employees getting laid off and other signs of impending trouble happening all around him.

Re:And the winner is RIM

[1800maxim]

and wanted the flashy new iPhone or GIII

it shows that it's about the glitz and the bling. the blackberry 9900 is a fantastic business device. don't worry, i'm not a shill, and i don't have one. my main phone right now is an iPhone 4, and my secondary phone to play with is an older Android running gingerbread 2.3

the new BB10 OS will be quite a game changer in my opinion, as will be RIM's two devices - a touchscreen device and a keyboard device. i can't wait for their release. they have a lot of things to overcome, but what they will offer (dual zones personal and business on the same device) is unmatched (for now).

the only bias that i have? i'm canadian, i would like to see RIM succeed (no they don't need to be #1 or even #2 in device sales), and i had the original Bold for 3 years. disregarding that, i seriously think, from the reading i've done so far, that the next devices are very promising

Re:And the winner is RIM

[cavtroop]

not a single one had it as part of the evaluation. Including us.

Re:And the winner is RIM

[glsunder]

Just because an OS company isn't going to survive long term doesn't mean you can't make money off their stock. I made decent cash off of BeOS stock in the 90s.

Re:And the winner is RIM

[finkployd]

I think it is less "cool factor" and more "RIM devices are at best 5 years behind the tech curve in almost every way imaginable". Seriously, if you want security above usability and productivity, you need a mainframe with dumb terminals and motorola flip phones.

Re:And the winner is RIM

[Anonymous Coward]

At my 100K employee company the key criterion is that it be remotely wipe-able with ActiveSync, and NOT require BES backend - so iPhone (3+ I think), and Android 2.2+ qualify (oh, and my old Win Mob 6.x phones, but not WP 7.x - dunno about WP 8).

YMMV

Re:And the winner is RIM

[petman]

It's interesting how the trend is totally the opposite in my part of the world. I work in a fairly large corporation here in the third world and Samsung/Android is arguably more popular amongst corporate users compared to the iPhone. In any meeting, it's not uncommon to see two-thirds or more or the attendees sporting Samsung Android phones.

Re:And the winner is RIM

[iluvcapra]

Its more about cool factor and being seen with the device, even in the business world.

What gave you the impression this was a new development? Do your executive's vehicles come from BMW or Kia?

A big part of business is appearances, and that's not cynical, that's the facts. The idea that "business" is about utilitarian efficiency and grinding commoditization is wrongheaded and moralistic in all the wrong ways.

We can't celebrate the free market and then concern-troll it with accusations of superficiality or "cool factor" the moment people start buying things we don't like. You gotta have a little faith that people know what they actually want, and aren't just brainwashed robots. (If they are then there's really no point to any of this.)

Re:And the winner is RIM

[PixetaledPikachu]

As part of the evaluation, we spoke to close to a dozen other companies that recently went through the same process, and pretty much got the same response - that the users overwhelmingly refused to have anything to do with a RIM product, and wanted the flashy new iPhone or GIII.

I'd be curious to know where people put the Windows 8 phone in that lineup.

You know, what's funny is that Microsoft's Win7 phone has only partial support on activesync protocol, so I imagine that people might a little bit wary about this on win8 phone as well

Re:And the winner is RIM

[ganjadude]

they went with a less secure phone/platform (iphone or android) than a known , secure platform(RIM)

This coming from a diehard android fan

Re:And the winner is RIM

[motoservo]

Yeah, it's obviously to be "seen" with it. Because holding a 2mm thick phone shaped thing that from five feet away looks like every other 2mm thing when in a palm of a hand is all about impressing people? Couldn't possible be for what the user is actually doing with said device. I think people that make comments like this must have really had a hard go at it--socially--and somehow every body else in the world must be some fake wannabe who just wants attention. Grow up.

Re:And the winner is RIM

[Xest]

Sorry but you're offering nothing more than a meaningless anecdote.

Looking at the actual Q3 figures, RIM is shifting 2 Blackberrys for every Windows Phone, and Apple is only shifting 2.6 iPhones for every Blackberry, which given Apple's high sales figures doesn't exactly put RIMs sales in too bad a light. You've also got to consider that the the smartphone market has seen explosive growth in recent years, so RIM is still shifting far more devices now, than it was prior to the iPhones release in 2007. It's shifting more than twice as many devices now than it was then, even though it hasn't kept it's marketshare up due to failing in the consumer arena.

But to focus on your anecdote, I'd question the wisdom of any company who basis their purchasing decision on users simply wanting to have a flashy phone, rather than wanting to actually get work done and be productive. Of the companies I know still using Blackberrys they do so because:

1) They still offer the best battery life
2) They still offer the best enterprise integration
3) They still offer the best hardware for typing out e-mails and so forth
4) They're still more durable than all Apple and most Android smartphones

My previous employer also looked at iPhones but didn't go with them largely because of battery life, it was an engineering firm and they made many sales to companies like Codelco in Chile, and they may fly from there straight to another country, like say, Dubai, and follow this pattern for a number of weeks. When you're in the middle of the Atacama you don't get chance to charge every 5mins, you go to the airport and sleep on the plane so no fancy hotel room where you can charge overnight, and then you end up somewhere where it can be +50c, but oh dear, guess what? The likes of the iPhone are only rated to work, and I quote from Apple's website:

Operating ambient temperature: 32Â to 95Â F (0Â to 35Â C)
Nonoperating temperature: â'4Â to 113Â F (â'20Â to 45Â C)
Relative humidity: 5% to 95% noncondensing
Maximum operating altitude: 10,000 feet (3000 m)

It can get below -4c in the Atacama quite easily too, oh, and you can easily be over 3000 m altitude to boot. Travelling to some tropical places, or particularly dry places and you'll even breach the humidity limits. All of which the sales guys at the old place I worked used to do, some could breach all these limits within a couple of days.

Look, it's great that where you work your sales and marketing guys get to play the hipster and run round with their shiny phones, but the fact remains that RIM still holds an enviable chunk of the business market - seeing as most their sales are business whilst most of Apple's sales are consumer, I'd say that RIM likely far and away still hold a much bigger portion of the business market than Apple (though undoubtedly less than Android now).

I'm not even a fan of RIM, I'm a fan of Android and I own a Galaxy Nexus, and Nexus (both of which I fucking love and would highly recommend by the way), but it gets tiresome to read these sorts of anecdotes which basically amount to "My dad says RIM is not cool anymore". That's great, but the figures are still nothing to be scoffed at even now, RIM is still important in business, and there are still damn good reasons why some companies still choose Blackberrys regardless of your assertions about sales guys not wanting them because they're not cool - guess what, some sales people do actually work for a living, and hence need a device that can support that and allow them to be productive whatever environment they're in. The businesses still using Blackberrys are the business who care about actually getting things done rather than using company funds to enlarge a sales, marketing, or IT guy's ego.

I'm not saying RIM necessarily even has a bright future, but this isn't about anecdotes or partisan fanboyism, it's about the facts - the cold hard numbers, and right now RIM is still a major player in business, and Blackberrys still have a number of advantages depending on your business needs. The idea that they've somehow vanished from the business world is just completely false.

Re:And the winner is RIM

[clifyt]

The security is one of these talking points that doesn't mean anything.

RIM was publicly asked to put backdoors into their phones at the US's request and did so. And then every other country in the world asked for them. And they gave them it so they could get into the market. Pretty much all they need to get into ANY Blackberry is to trick it into utilizing one of there servers, and it is magically unlocked for anyone that has one of two dozen encryption unlocks given to nerds in the third world.

So far, China is the only one with public access to the iPhone, and only on a specific model sold in China...Google so far as walked away from a deal with China because of these questions which I respect (sadly, I know the guy that got Apple into China). Here in America, both Apple and Google have denied the gov'ts requests as they are unconstitutional (but mostly because it would cost them money to do so) and thus the gov't has to try to get in through the AT&T's and Verizons.

Either way...the security on the iPhone is far greater than BB. Not sure about Android because I don't use it often enough to say.

Re:And the winner is RIM

[Karzz1]

....I had a first gen Blackberry Storm.

I did as well... that experience turned me away from RIM forever. I still have nightmares.

Re:And the winner is RIM

[tom17]

Dual zones? Is that like multi-users?

I have 2 (amongst others) accounts on my N7, one is my personal account and one is just for my business. They are nicely separated. If they go to this model on the phone version of Android then it will be great for keeping personal and business apart (as opposed to giving the device to different users which doesn't make as much sense for a phone as it does a tablet).

Or is the BB dual zone thing completely different to this?

Re:And the winner is RIM

[cavtroop]

I'd question the wisdom of any company who basis their purchasing decision on users simply wanting to have a flashy phone, rather than wanting to actually get work done and be productive.

I completely agree here. I argued to hold out until the BB 10 comes out to at least have a look-see, but corporate didn't want to wait, and the sales guys are beating down the doors to get the new flash iPhones. I can't stand my job, and this is one of the reasons why - we don't make business decisions based on facts, evidence, ability to get job done, etc, its all based on screaming the loudest and raw emotions. I imagine it's that way in quite a few companies nowadays. *sigh*

Re:And the winner is RIM

[Rogerborg]

Well, when you're down to penny stock, any change looks significant.

Re:And the winner is RIM

[phorm]

Actually, I'm more than happy to have my BB bold for work.
For email, calendar, and work-stuff (not to mention battery life) it works very well.

For my personal stuff, which includes looking up movies, web browsing, playing games, etc etc, I prefer my SG2.

A bit part of the problem isn't that BB's aren't cool, it's that the separation between "work" and "personal" devices is becoming a lot thinner. What are the business advantages of an iPhone/Android over a blackberry?

Re:And the winner is RIM

[ganjadude]

Interesting I guess it has been a while since I did any reading on the topic myself, Thanks for the insight (and smack the hell out of your friend who gave the iphone to the chineese!)

We have to get rid of software patents

[jgerry]

This level of insanity cannot continue. It stifles innovation, and practically guarantees no small players will ever design a new mobile device or OS.

Re:We have to get rid of software patents

[Dyinobal]

Or as the big corporations would say, "Working as intended".

Re:We have to get rid of software patents

[Master Moose]

What better a way to compete than stopping the competition.

A pre-emptive strike to neutralise an attack before it occurs.

Let the others know that they are welcome to try and compete, but you had better have a huge legal fund.

Re:We have to get rid of software patents

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

I'm pretty sure cost to manufacture and certify your device as safe are larger barriers to entry than the cost of a patent lawyer.

I mean in theory that sounds nice but, just not feasible for a host of other reasons that have nothing to do with patents. Why haven't we seen massive amounts of innovation in places like china where there aren't the same level of patent protections in place?

Hint: the answer is very long, nuanced and likely boring unless you're a nerd(where it's fascinating) or a racist(where these things don't matter and china sucks).

Re:We have to get rid of software patents

[Anonymous Coward]

What are you talking about? I regularly get asked to submit translations for Chinese papers to be used as a prior art defence against patent threats/suits. It's truly amazing the amount of prior art out there that is not found in English.

I also get a lot of work translating potential inventions from Chinese authors into something a US patent lawyer can work with. Of course the inventors are generally listed as from US based holding companies, or the US division management. The engineers, however, live in China and most don't speak much English except for the few that have been educated abroad.

Also, in playing the patent game, it is clear that anything is fair game, and we regularly get patents approved that should never see the light of day due to obviousness and/or prior art. We've even pointed out prior art to the lawyers writing up the patent, and have been told to ignore it (doubly so if it's particularly obscure). The reasoning being that until a patent is challenged in court, no one spends much effort looking for prior art. The patent office clearly doesn't.

Re:We have to get rid of software patents

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

I was pulling a random example out of thin air of a place that might not have patent protections the way America does.

Still, given operating costs, it's not unfeasible to imagine that the real barriers to entry aren't going to be patent fees or suits. Rather, you know, manufacturing or regulatory issues.

Re:We have to get rid of software patents

[Pieroxy]

This level of insanity cannot continue. It stifles innovation, and practically guarantees no small players will ever design a new mobile device or OS.

Given the number of new OSs coming in, I'd say we've got more than enough.

Arghh....

[ls671]

Let's put an end to this please. Void all current and ban any further patent suits. Then, everybody can go home and have a party with Warren (Warren Cuccurullo) to celebrate the end of patent wars!

Re:Arghh....

[Swampash]

Let's put an end to this please. Void all current and ban any further patent suits. Then, everybody can go home and have a party with Warren (Warren Cuccurullo) to celebrate the end of patent wars!

Bahahahaha, this is a stupid post. AND THAT'S THE WAY I LIKE IT.

Re:Arghh....

[ls671]

Somebody got the reference right for sure, for sure... From somewhere in the Valley...

Re:Arghh....

[cundare]

>Let's put an end to this please. Void all current and ban any further patent suits. Then, everybody can go home and have a party with Warren (Warren Cuccurullo) to celebrate the end of patent wars! Translation: "Let's put Apple out of business." If somehow the patent system were to disappear tomorrow, Chinese (and probably American) iPads, iPods, and iPhones would appear rather quickly at half the price. Apple's sales would pretty much stop overnight.

Oppa gangster style!

[sageres]

Finally! I knew after what Samsung had to go through with Apple few months ago, Oppa would come back with revenge.

Lawyers game

[dimeglio]

Well it's going to be another good year for law firms. I expect Samsung to have their fun as well but it's unlikely they'll have much of a case vs Apple. They might win some but lose many. Lawyers, they will all the time.

Re:Lawyers game

[Karzz1]

I know this is not your point, but do you realize that Apple has been *losing* most of their lawsuits against Samsung and that the US lawsuit Apple did win will probably be overturned on appeal?

Re:And, in other news - Black Friday Patent sales.

[Chewbacon]

wouldn't it be Grey Thursday, then?

Sigh

[Anonymous Coward]

I remember when patents were for cool inventions designed to solve a real-world problem.

Re:what comes around

[Tough Love]

Since Apple introduced the iPhone 5 its stock dropped $140, about 20%, or $132 billion of shareholder value evaporated. Could this have something to do with forgetting to innovate while putting all its energy into litigate?

Re:And, in other news - Black Friday Patent sales.

[ganjadude]

i dont know, id prefer it to be orangey-majenta thursday

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Market Share

[sociocapitalist]

It isn't about winning the lawsuits necessarily. It's also about delaying the competition 'to market'. The more one player can block the other, the longer they have to establish market share in a given area.

Re:And, in other news - Black Friday Patent sales.

[Geeky]

Just not purple unless you want to incur the wrath of Cadbury.

Re:And, in other news - Black Friday Patent sales.

[RaceProUK]

Black Friday

Black Friday, Orange Wednesday, ... any other days with colours?

"Here we go again"

[nurb432]

Again? when did it really end?

Where will it end? ( most likely when you cant even pee without being sued and all commerce comes to a grinding halt. )

Re:what comes around

[JasterBobaMereel]

If you can tell the difference between an iPhone4S and an iPhone5 then you have one ... and by that time you have already bought it ..

What are the advantages of the iPhone5 .... I have no idea and I have seen adverts for it?

but of course that doesn't apply...

[Uberbah]

What comes around, goes around. Or perhaps "as you sow, so shall you reap."

...to when Korean cell phone companies - like, saaaay, Samsung - had the iPhone banned for a couple years in Korea. But, as with Google's use of the patents they acquired from Mototrola, it's just fine to swing your patent dick around....as long as your name isn't Apple.

Re:And, in other news - Black Friday Patent sales.

[RaceProUK]

Bloody Sunday

Not strictly a colour, but better than Gloomy Sunday.